Continuation of expert witness testimony from architect examining design details, cavity barriers, cladding systems, and the roles and responsibilities of architects in the Grenfell Tower refurbishment.
00:00:09 would you ask mr hyde to come back in
00:00:14 please
00:00:22 thank you
00:00:26 take my jacket off oh do yes if you liked he was tired
00:00:40 thank you right yes mr chairman mr hyatt uh we were on your report um 28 page 81 and looking at figure 3.42
00:00:52 28 page 81 and looking at figure 3.42 could we pan out please from the diagram and look at the text at the top of the page
00:00:58 page um where you say this you say where the horizontal cavity barrier interfaces with the vertical channel support of the cladding a seal will be required to prevent any bypass of the barrier via the gaps
00:01:09 bypass of the barrier via the gaps between the cladding cassette and the channel
00:01:11 channel which is inherent in the channel and cassette system to provide build ability tolerances the internal dimension of the spandrel cassettes is greater than the length of the vertical supporting rails to enable installation
00:01:22 installation and therefore gaps are inevitable these must be sealed the drawings below illustrate this condition they can be read with the physical
00:01:30 physical model provided for this condition now your solution i think to the uh concern
00:01:36 concern or problem that you've identified is to place a seal in those gaps isn't it correct and if we look at figure 3.44 on page 82 of this report the next page over we can see here the seals
00:01:49 over we can see here the seals highlighted in green am i right correct yes so is it your uh proposal here to place intumescent strips bonded and mechanically fixed to vert to the vertical channel that's
00:02:00 to vert to the vertical channel that's your solution i think there the exact way uh of dealing with uh fixing them i think would be the matter of some discussion but uh one way would be to fix them onto the
00:02:12 one way would be to fix them onto the flanks
00:02:13 flanks sides of the outside sides of the channel yes and it's the idea that these would expand as cavity barriers would expand in the event of a fire filling that gap correct
00:02:22 correct do you think that that approach would resolve this problem um namely the problem of the gap within the u-shaped rail we saw which is caused as a result of needing to cut the cavity barriers around the
00:02:34 to cut the cavity barriers around the cladding rail um i'd i believe it would could we go back to the previous drawing uh
00:02:42 uh yes if that's on page 80 1881 go to page 81 i think which is the previous drawing is that is that figure 3.42
00:02:50 3.42 yes right why i wanted to show that drawing is that there is a discussion to be had about where where is the outside of the building
00:03:01 building if we follow the uh you can see the note um aluminium rain screen cladding and there's a black dot that shows the outside face of the
00:03:12 outside face of the aluminium but that returns into the channel and stops
00:03:20 it sits across the toggle there is another aluminium clad cladding panel coming in as well the tray is coming in there so the
00:03:31 the tray is coming in there so the outside of the building is it's the outside the bottom horizontal line but then it returns into the channel and i think that the outside of the building actually
00:03:43 of the building actually goes right into the the channel face the inside part of the channel when you see the outside of the building you actually mean the exterior face of the internal upturn of the aluminium
00:03:56 of the internal upturn of the aluminium uh cladding i mean the external face the external face of the building returns with the tray for one of a better term into the
00:04:09 tray for one of a better term into the channel
00:04:10 channel and it it is essential that the horizontal cavity barrier closes that gap it's a very difficult piece to gather in
00:04:22 it's a very difficult piece to gather in uh
00:04:22 uh in three dimensions it'll be challenging it's challenging for architects to get this would be challenging for everybody else but if you don't have that sealed the fire
00:04:33 fire underneath the cavity barrier can break into the channel and then up inside the channel and back into the
00:04:41 into the the next uh the space the next concealed space that's the space that forms the cavity above the cavity barrier
00:04:49 barrier is that clear and this is what that is to me i need to address but i i i'm it is to me so long as my question was clear to you i think that was what matters
00:04:58 matters and i think you've answered it um my question was just to repeat it um i can get back to it uh whether this approach would solve the problem namely the gap within the u-shaped rail
00:05:11 namely the gap within the u-shaped rail which i think these barriers around the cladding rail what is shown pink would have to go the entire height of the tray
00:05:22 so the edge the return edge of the tray would have to have that seal all the way up it
00:05:27 up it so that that no point can any fire that's got into the part of the channel where the toggle is
00:05:36 no fire in there could break back out around the edge of the channel and into the cavity above so that that would have to go the whole way up can we then go back to page 81
00:05:47 way up can we then go back to page 81 i'm sorry paige um 82 yes and look at figure 3.44 yeah and uh if you look at that there
00:05:59 yeah and uh if you look at that there you can see uh as i pointed out to you the green square yes with the arrow pointing to intumescent strip bonded and mechanically fixed to vertical channel do you see that yes um how would those
00:06:12 do you see that yes um how would those seals or intumescent strips be bonded to the rail
00:06:16 the rail well they can be glued to rail fixed in that fashion because they've just got to stay there once there's a fire
00:06:24 fire they would ex uh they would expand and and the virtue of having expanded they would fill the gap and stay there so they've just got to remain in the non-fire condition
00:06:35 to remain in the non-fire condition would another solution which could be adopted
00:06:39 adopted uh be the use of mineral wool within those gaps compressible mineral will yes provided that it could be firmly adhered and retrained but the
00:06:53 firmly adhered and retrained but the difficulty with that is that in order for the mineral wool to fill the gap between the channel and the uh and can i call it the lip would everybody
00:07:04 can i call it the lip would everybody understand if i'd say that in order for it to
00:07:06 it to fill that uh to fill that gap it would have to
00:07:11 have to it it would be um much thicker and pushing the tr pushing the cassettes on would be a difficult thing because the mineral wool
00:07:22 mineral wool would um be in danger of being snagged and pushed out of position it's better to have something thinner like an inch message strip which will then expand now you can see on this diagram and
00:07:35 now you can see on this diagram and as we can on the previous one uh let's start with this one at 3.44 but that still leaves a gap in the vertical channel at the very back of the
00:07:46 back of the rail doesn't it yes and everybody's got the idea that this is a worm's eye view you're looking up at it from underneath yes absolutely so this is a the opposite of
00:07:57 absolutely so this is a the opposite of a plan i think uh well it's we do it's a sort of axonometric we do two
00:08:02 two types of these drawings one is looking down because it's a perspective the other is looking up from underneath yeah this is actually looking up from underneath it it requires almost
00:08:12 you know quite a bit of imagination to do this right i mean i think i've got enough imagination to be able to pose the question and that is looking up at it from my position as a
00:08:23 looking up at it from my position as a worm
00:08:24 worm uh there is uh a white area still to the as it were southeast of the uh green oblong
00:08:31 oblong if i may say so well done that is correct right yes um it's probably easier to see on figure 4.3 3.43 uh sorry 3.42 i'm so sorry on the page 81 if we
00:08:44 3.42 i'm so sorry on the page 81 if we go to that because i can ask the question better i think by reference to that
00:08:51 yes so it is yes you can still see the white part at the top of the yes of the u which you've identified as vertical cladding channel um that gap remains doesn't it
00:09:02 um that gap remains doesn't it notwithstanding your project that's correct
00:09:05 correct um why would it be acceptable to leave that gap in unfilled um because i i made the point a few moments ago
00:09:19 i i made the point a few moments ago about
00:09:19 about the distinction of what is the outside and the inside of the building i think the outside of the building the outside of the cladding is the slot between the two
00:09:31 edges of the cassette as it goes into the channel i think that's arguably still
00:09:35 still outside the building but either way the the pink there would go from top to bottom
00:09:40 bottom and therefore it would seal the inside of the cab the cavity inside the rain shield
00:09:49 shield it would seal the cavity inside the rain shield above and below the cavity barrier
00:09:53 barrier from that vertical um space within the channel so effectively the inside would have been sealed from the outside
00:10:06 yes i see it's it's a challenging thing to grasp right no i i you've explained it i think very clearly and if you haven't no doubt i shall be asked to
00:10:14 asked to clarify it further with you but just looking at that and thinking about it that's a bespoke piece isn't it
00:10:21 um the pink yes yes and that is that something that could be engineered on site or that need to be considered carefully by the architect long before
00:10:32 carefully by the architect long before this got anywhere i think it's going to be well i'm going to qualify that if i may in a moment but i think it ideally it should be fought about
00:10:40 about early because the overall arrangement has to be signed off as workable and unless you can deal with this then the problem may not be solvable
00:10:51 be solvable so i would wish to see it solved early however i'd like to qualify that if i may
00:10:58 may is that okay yes i i have been i've been given the privilege of looking at this
00:11:06 this um with all the information that is now available at the time that this work was done
00:11:14 done to 12 to 13 take it right through to 216 there would not have been the level of focus on an issue like this mr lam i think is quite correct i haven't done
00:11:25 i think is quite correct i haven't done any kind of audit of the buildings across the country but where buildings have got cassette arrangements like this then i think those are likely
00:11:36 then i think those are likely i i only say likely to show this kind of problem
00:11:41 problem this is an issue i think that the entire industry
00:11:45 industry is going to have to look at very seriously rain screen systems need to be considered carefully in terms of these
00:11:53 of these the cav the protection of the cavity and the
00:11:57 the dr lane talks about the integrity of the cavity barriers that's one thing the second issue is
00:12:05 even if the cladding line stays where it should we must deal with gaps around it and this is th this is this has had a level of scrutiny
00:12:17 level of scrutiny that i don't think would be would have been routinely applied by design teams at the time
00:12:27 and looking at the distinction if there is a distinction between the work to be done by studio e as the reasonably prudent architect and the work to be done by harley
00:12:38 the work to be done by harley as the reasonably prudent and skilled cladding subcontractor is the design and specification of this detail here and your solution to the filling of this
00:12:50 and your solution to the filling of this gap
00:12:51 gap one which would be uh examined and arrived at by studio e or by harley looking at it from the point of view of the reasonably competent architect
00:13:02 the reasonably competent architect i think it tips into the territory of the specialist subcontractor right
00:13:09 now can we move on to look at the silver thank you pardon if i may i think that
00:13:17 in the future architects would look at a thing like this and want to know how it is solved but the solving of it tips to the territory of the subcontractor right and if it was sold it having tipped into
00:13:28 and if it was sold it having tipped into the
00:13:29 the subcontractors territory as you put it would it nonetheless be something that the reasonably prudent architect would want to know about and satisfy themselves about once the specialist subcontract specialist
00:13:42 specialist subcontract specialist cladding subcontractor had arrived at this solution yes except for that would be the architect
00:13:48 architect in the role of coordinating the team and the important team member here is the specialist fire consultant and so that i think that they would want to make sure that the athlete would want to make sure that all the brains
00:14:01 to make sure that all the brains that are going to be applied to it from the consultant team side have been satisfied so do i take it from this exchange that the examination and specification of this solution
00:14:13 this solution is not something that you would expect the reasonably prudent architect to come up with and examine at stage e or f1
00:14:25 then i don't think so now i do i see can we then turn to the sill level
00:14:34 level can i go please to uh page 73 of this report and let's look together at figure 3.35
00:14:45 3.35 this is a typical detail number two sil detail
00:14:48 detail and again i think am i right this shows the bespoke piece at the sill third down on the left this is correct and it says bespoke sil piece by manufacturer or vertical cavity barriers
00:14:59 manufacturer or vertical cavity barriers to fully fill residual cavity at window sill alternatively if not available residual cavity filled with material wool bat
00:15:05 wool bat held under compression now again same questions
00:15:10 questions and i'm sorry about that but i need to ask them again in relation to this detail um breather membrane we can see there's a breather membrane you've added two items down from what i've just read yes to run
00:15:22 from what i've just read yes to run between the cladding bracket and the silk cassette and dressed over the horizontal cavity barrier right now would the breather membrane there require a gap between the sill piece and the cladding no my answer is uh you may wish me to go
00:15:34 no my answer is uh you may wish me to go through every point again but my answer is it's the same condition as the jump the beaver membrane allows moisture to pass out but stops wet
00:15:47 moisture to pass out but stops wet going in and so moisture can pass out of the um bespoke piece there and
00:15:58 um bespoke piece there and and then um it would um spread up and under the inside face it would pass up under the inside face of the of the um cassette and out at the sill level
00:16:09 level so do we read your answers in relation to this detail here as the same yes as you gave us in relation to the earlier direct diagram we looked at
00:16:22 the earlier direct diagram we looked at now
00:16:27 we can see and it's a question that really hangs but we can see here and we can ask it off off this diagram
00:16:34 diagram that the new windows at grenfell tower were placed outside the plane of the original masonry line weren't they the plane is the word i should have used earlier that's absolutely the right word yes but was it necessary to do that
00:16:45 necessary to do that was it necessary to have the windows in that location the the ins we call it the thermal line the insulation outside the building
00:16:57 the insulation outside the building needed to be continuous through to the windows
00:17:01 windows if that wasn't achieved there'd be what we call a cold bridge a gap so there's all sorts of problems with that condensate apart from the loss of um
00:17:10 of um of insulation there's coal there's condensation all sorts of problems you may remember and perhaps i could refer to it when i was explaining the model i i
00:17:21 when i was explaining the model i i believe i said that uh if the windows had been left in their original position the insulation would have had to have been brought down the spindle panel i'm taking the section through the building down the spindle panel over the
00:17:33 building down the spindle panel over the window
00:17:34 window and then it would have had to turn and gone under the concrete slab until it reached the window that would have been a depth of something like that likewise with the sill we've had to come up and then cross
00:17:45 up and then cross to meet the window frame that would have reduced
00:17:48 reduced the depth of the windows it would have had a major i won't say adverse for that subjective but it had a major impact on the appearance of the building it would have
00:18:00 appearance of the building it would have reduced the view from inside um at the jams the same thing would have had to have happened so i think it would have been difficult
00:18:11 so i think it would have been difficult to deal with and therefore i believe most if not every architect would conclude that to overclock the building the windows would move out
00:18:23 would move out thank you and i want to turn to a completely different topic which is building control sorry to overcloud the building with insulation on the outside then the windows go out yes i understand
00:18:34 then the windows go out yes i understand as i'd say i just want to ask you now some general questions on the subject of uh the involvement of the building control body if i may can i take you to your supplemental report please
00:18:46 p-h-y-s-605 at page 57
00:18:51 and let's look together at paragraph 6.8.3
00:18:57 6.8.3 and you say you say there that and you quote from the rib a legal handbook 2013 second edition and you say that and quote the architect may produce design documentation that is
00:19:09 may produce design documentation that is approved by the building control service but the architect must still comply with the requirements of the building regulations themselves and not rely solely on this approval paragraph 7.5.1 page 185 and you give the reference
00:19:22 page 185 and you give the reference three nine six inq3013967 can we take it that it's in your view not reasonable for an architect to rely on building control as the only check on whether a design complies with the building regulations
00:19:34 complies with the building regulations that is my view yes and it's that a reasonably prudent reasonably competent architect must check that for himself whatever the building control body decides to do
00:19:45 decides to do that is correct yes
00:19:49 in relation to the full plans application you say in your report that it's accepted practice that a full plan's application should be submitted with a set of general arrangement drawings
00:19:58 drawings and typical construction details i can show you that if you want no i remember it just for reference purposes it's paragraph 5.1.8 on page five but you remember that that
00:20:09 page five but you remember that that that's what you say um in your experience would general arrangement drawings include basic details such as the type of cladding proposed
00:20:24 the generic type yes um not necessarily the manufacturer but the generic type when you say generic type could you be a bit more aacm
00:20:35 bit more aacm um zinc terracotta whatever it's going to be
00:20:40 to be would general arrangement drawings typically include the insulation proposed same answer generically yes so what would that be in the case of
00:20:53 so what would that be in the case of fr 5000 or rs 5000 well it could be mineral wool if it was not going to be that alternatively i suppose it might be pir it might just
00:21:05 i suppose it might be pir it might just simply specify the name right what about the cavity barrier strategy would general arrangement drawings include basic details about the cavity barrier strategy
00:21:16 cavity barrier strategy well it's a design and build contract
00:21:22 i know there were delays this one went slower than was anticipated but it's it's getting
00:21:29 pretty late no my view is that the the cavity barrier strategy should have been sorted out before they ever went out to tender anyway so having got it sorted out then that would be information available to
00:21:41 that would be information available to submit with a general um with a full plans application so the answer is yes the answer is yes yes um at the full plan stage would you also expect a clear statement about which route to
00:21:53 statement about which route to compliance yes with absolutely i'm sorry i should have waited for you yes it's uh it roots to compliance with 12.6 to 12.9 of adb and the answer is
00:22:04 12.6 to 12.9 of adb and the answer is yes
00:22:04 yes and would you expect a clear statement from the designer and for the present purposes
00:22:09 purposes i mean studio e the the proposals complied with the building regulations but do you expect a clear statement from the architect in the uh in or in accompaniment
00:22:22 uh in or in accompaniment with the general arrangement drawings i i
00:22:27 i don't remember ever giving such an assurance um it's i think it's implicit right
00:22:35 conversely would you expect them to flag up any issues where they either knew or thought that there was any doubt about whether what they were proposing was compliant not with the full plans
00:22:47 was compliant not with the full plans application because um any uncertainty should have been resolved beforehand there may be things to be resolved later that haven't been shown but the full plans application in safari
00:22:58 but the full plans application in safari that gave information uh should be compliant can we go to your report please at p h y r five zeros thirty
00:23:09 p h y r five zeros thirty at page six
00:23:12 and i'd like to go to paragraph 5.1.22 there in the middle of the page you're discussing the information to be forwarded with the full plans application there
00:23:24 application there and you say such a rolling process for the issuing of information requires very clear communication in particular the applicant should make it clear that such information is to be received as part of the initial full plans application
00:23:35 plans application and all documents subsequently submitted should be clearly identified in that respect
00:23:40 respect in your view did studio e meet that requirement no
00:23:46 could you just briefly clarify why you say that or explain why you say that
00:23:58 well i i can't remember exactly which documents i have seen but i i can't
00:24:06 can't name them but i've seen a large number of documents a large number of communications emails etc which were not explicit as to the purpose of the drawings that
00:24:19 as to the purpose of the drawings that were attached to them um apart from the fact that we've got all the problems with drawing numbers and that
00:24:24 and that we've got i would prefer to see a situation where a full plans application is made
00:24:29 is made drawings are listed on that application and their general arrangement they're sufficient for the building control officer to understand the proposal and the building
00:24:40 proposal and the building subsequent information is going to be submitted
00:24:43 submitted each time that subs each package of subsequent information should state that it is part of that original application it's not some parallel inquiry it's it's a part
00:24:54 some parallel inquiry it's it's a part of the application here is another piece of the application it should list the drawings clearly that wasn't done and the our job certainly in in
00:25:06 certainly in in the iclick's job is to ensure that the building inspector has every assistance in discharging his or her duty we have a complete picture of the
00:25:17 we have a complete picture of the building in our mind and we should if we haven't got all the information together at the beginning to submit in one application then subsequent pieces of information
00:25:28 then subsequent pieces of information should be clearly described clearly stated in terms of where they fit into the hole
00:25:33 the hole and related back to that full plans application and that was not done did studio e's approach in general to the full plans application and the building control process meet the standard of the reasonably complicated project
00:25:45 complicated project and again is that for the same reasons or are there other reasons it's the same reasons i think that what i've described encompasses the problem well let's um let's just look over the page at pages seven and eight
00:25:57 page at pages seven and eight of your report at paragraph 5.1.26 because i think we see there your reasons
00:26:03 reasons this is under the heading summary of findings and you say the picture that emerges through this review is one of general disorder which i summarize as follows and you've got them
00:26:14 summarize as follows and you've got them summarized there a the pre-application dialogue was not comprehensive b the full applications full plans application was late c lack of coordination in terms of
00:26:25 c lack of coordination in terms of processing the application d over the page at eight lack of precision around dates of information issue and receipt
00:26:31 receipt and in terms of drawing numbers and revision references do those remain your key reasons why you are critical of studio e in this respect they do and i think it should have led
00:26:42 they do and i think it should have led to the rejection of the application are there any other reasons now that you've heard the evidence and seen the transcripts of the width from the witnesses that you would add to that list
00:26:56 could i just go yes again to go back to the pages page we can just go back a page to page seven
00:27:04 please
00:27:12 i i think this is a these general headings
00:27:16 headings cover it um very well yeah i i i don't i think it covers it very well thank you now mr crawford's evidence
00:27:28 now mr crawford's evidence and i'm summarizing it but his evidence was that he wasn't aware of regulation 38 of the building regulations and you know just to be fair to him and clear with you i should show you what he
00:27:40 clear with you i should show you what he said it's day 11 page 123 please line 9.
00:27:51 uh he was asked by me at line nine were you aware of regulation 38 of the building regulations at the time of the grenfell tower project answer i don't think specifically and
00:28:04 answer i don't think specifically and then i took him to regulation 38 and then at line 23 he said i asked him was that something you were familiar with at the time of your involvement in the project
00:28:15 your involvement in the project answer at line 25 not specifically no my question is would you expect a reasonably competent architect to be aware of that provision in the building regulations uh yes
00:28:27 in the building regulations uh yes and certainly in if they even know it or in taking on this project they're going to carry out their code of view and they pick it up in your experience at the time of the grenfell tower
00:28:38 grenfell tower uh project what what was this general standard of awareness of regulation 38 within the architecture in a building like this it would have been it would have been known by a competent architect thank you can i then turn to a different topic
00:28:51 can i then turn to a different topic again
00:28:51 again namely fire safety advice and i want to ask you something about the fire safety strategy reports in general terms and some questions about xover's appointment can we go first to ms
00:29:02 appointment can we go first to ms menzie's reported bmer 604 please page 97
00:29:14 and she says uh there at paragraph 305 a quarter of the way down that page uh she says
00:29:21 she says the x over fire strategy that's ex040118 made no reference to alterations to the external walls of the building it set out that the changes were thought not to adversely affect external fire
00:29:33 not to adversely affect external fire spread but quotes this will be confirmed by an analysis in a future issue of this report clay's quotes it was stroke is not unusual for a b4 quotes analysis unquotes of external
00:29:46 quotes analysis unquotes of external fire spread to be submitted after a conditional decision has been issued however any decision should have requested submission of the details um now this would be the conditional
00:29:57 um now this would be the conditional rejection or approval of the full plans application do you agree with her opinion from an architect's perspective
00:30:06 yes i i don't have a problem with that no
00:30:10 no now you say in your uh your report and just for the transcript this is a 4.1.33 of your report at phyr 5029 at page 12. you say it is very important to note
00:30:22 you say it is very important to note that the principal components stroke product strict materials that make up the over cladding cannot be considered in isolation now it is a consequence of your view which i've just quoted to you
00:30:36 view which i've just quoted to you that a full analysis of the facade system for the purposes of compliance with b4 of the building regulations depended on the person doing the analysis
00:30:46 analysis having full details of the final materials
00:30:49 materials decided upon for installation yeah i think that follows yes uh so that would include and i'm inviting you to agree the pir
00:31:00 and i'm inviting you to agree the pir insulation and the acm panels with the pe core yes do you consider that a full analysis then
00:31:08 then couldn't be undertaken by xover or any other
00:31:13 other fire safety engineer until the nbs specification had been finalized and provided in november 2013 or perhaps january 2014.
00:31:27 it it could have been done in in principle but the finalization of it would have been dependent on the final the finalization of the fire safety report would have been dependent
00:31:38 report would have been dependent on the finalization of the proposals you say the finalization of the proposals do you mean the final decision
00:31:49 proposals do you mean the final decision to uh procure and install a particular product
00:31:53 product yes so taking the acm panels pe panels the decision to adopt those was made various times but but during a period between may and september 2014
00:32:06 between may and september 2014 are you saying that during that period and only during that period xover would have been able to do the full analysis that they've indicated
00:32:14 indicated they would do [Music]
00:32:20 as the the timeline becomes quite complicated here i almost want to
00:32:27 want to set the timeline line out on the table but there was there was information coming out of the design team in exodus direction the c and the d
00:32:38 direction the c and the d report that gave plenty of information upon which they could get their teeth into and pass commentary and should have in my opinion past commentary
00:32:49 opinion past commentary as the design developed that would have put right
00:32:52 put right errors that were being made from the beginning
00:32:55 beginning the final sign-off of that would have required them to have been given the drawings and specification of the proposal
00:33:06 proposal following any value engineering and anything else that had been done to it but they have certainly plenty to pick up along the way
00:33:18 would you consider as an architect that the pretender fire strategy reports by which i mean the design note and the three issues of the
00:33:30 design note and the three issues of the outline fire safety strategy done by xavier
00:33:33 xavier between october 2012 and the 7th of november 2013.
00:33:40 which no longer reflected the proposals given the changes that were then made in terms of the materials specified i've only looked at the fire report
00:33:52 i've only looked at the fire report from the point of view of the overcladding dealt with many other issues but i've looked at it from the point of view of the overcladding itself
00:34:04 with that said could i ask you to give me the question again i might try differently um given that in november 2013
00:34:15 in november 2013 which is in and let let it be only a week or two after the last of the issues of the outline fire safety strategy
00:34:26 strategy and that's when they were going out to employers requirement tender yes yes at that stage we've seen the nbs specification which contains fr 5000 for the insulation
00:34:38 fr 5000 for the insulation and zinc for the rain screen but with the set of alternatives we saw at age 92 in the nbs specification at that stage would the reasonably prudent architect
00:34:49 would the reasonably prudent architect go back to x over and ask them now to produce their report uh their
00:34:54 uh their b4 analysis
00:34:58 on the basis of those materials
00:35:04 yes i think in coordinating their work they would preferably earlier than that they would have
00:35:11 have it didn't just all happen in the last moments that employs requires documents took a number a good few weeks to pull together
00:35:21 together they would have been able to have asked x over to check that as it was looking at that time it's not a mad scramble on the night on the eve before the issue in the
00:35:32 on the eve before the issue in the run-up to that documents have been published they should have asked them to check it and to comment right and then breaking that down further and moving forward further in time into 2014 after ryden had been
00:35:43 into 2014 after ryden had been identified as the winning main contractor do you think that that a reasonably prudent or reasonably competent
00:35:52 competent architect would have then gone back to xova and asked them to produce the b4 analysis
00:35:58 analysis once the identification of the rain screen had been arrived at absolutely between may and september 2000 absolutely and the same question in relation to rs
00:36:09 and the same question in relation to rs 5000
00:36:11 5000 as of august 2014 yes yes i'm not quite clear in my mind how the switch from fr to rs was
00:36:22 how the switch from fr to rs was communicated to the architect um given the changes
00:36:29 from the specification of the rain screen clouding material and the insulation in the nbs specification that then occurred during 2014 after ryden had
00:36:42 occurred during 2014 after ryden had been appointed do you consider that the reasonably competent architect ought to have advised
00:36:47 advised ryden that the pretender fire strategy reports no longer reflected the proposals and needed to be revisited thank you now we know that
00:36:59 thank you now we know that i say we know it it appears from the evidence
00:37:03 evidence and take this as an assumption from me that ryden took the decision not to appoint x over or any fire safety engineer post-novation or at the very least we put it the other
00:37:14 or at the very least we put it the other way around no decision was taken to that effect is it correct that under its appointment with the tmo x over
00:37:25 an architect would have expected xover to provide that advice
00:37:37 to provide that advice ryden did not take x over on right studio e know that there's outstanding no or should have known that there's outstanding information it's never been closed off
00:37:49 closed off they they should have either been making it
00:37:54 it very very clear to ryden that there was a need for a specialist consultant to be appointed by ryden in the absence of um xover
00:38:05 in the absence of um xover to complete that work or they should have
00:38:08 have um made it clear that they were going to have to pursue that through x over under x over's appointment at the tmo now i'm
00:38:19 x over's appointment at the tmo now i'm sorry can i just um ask you this we've now got to the stage where studio e are the consultant to ryden yes
00:38:30 are the consultant to ryden yes x over are still a consultant to the tmo what status does the architect have to start requiring xover to do work for the
00:38:41 start requiring xover to do work for the tmo
00:38:43 tmo i don't think the architect has any authority to um the arctic is no longer the agent of the tmo
00:38:51 the tmo and cannot therefore instruct work if it's going to cost money um from another party but the architect has a new client which is ryden's
00:39:02 is ryden's right i understand that the architect in your view
00:39:05 your view should tell ryden that there's work that remains to be done i i don't have any difficulty with that it was just your next stage that they should take it up with x over that i was
00:39:16 should take it up with x over that i was questioning yes i'm perhaps being a little informal there they they they should have satisfied themselves that it has been dealt with somewhere and maybe they needed to say to um
00:39:29 and maybe they needed to say to um ryden you please get in touch with the tmo
00:39:32 tmo and ensure that um that xover have the proper
00:39:36 proper authority and instruction to answer questions that we have in the end is it for the architect or for the
00:39:45 for the design and build contractor to decide whether to obtain further information of that kind
00:39:57 all of the design and build contractors that um my firm when i was with it has had experience of have um as i as i understand it i haven't
00:40:10 um as i as i understand it i haven't been involved with them all but they've insisted on having um a specialist fire consultant appointed um if they did not do that
00:40:22 um if they did not do that my colleagues would have recommended it very strongly to the design-build contractor so at that point there would be a recommendation that this report has outstanding issues
00:40:34 that this report has outstanding issues it's coming forward and it's got outstanding issues they've got to be they've got to be closed off yeah all right well that's that's as far as we can take it it may be and i there are a few a few perhaps
00:40:45 perhaps perhaps a few loose strands that i just want to pull on if i can um now
00:40:52 um now we we know from the appointment with tmo that xover had that they were obliged
00:40:59 obliged to provide advice up to our iba work stage
00:41:02 stage f unless the appointment was terminated now proceed let's proceed on that the basis that i'm correct about that at the time of the tender the work had
00:41:13 at the time of the tender the work had the design had reached work stage e i think
00:41:15 think or perhaps f1 yes if there was any work to do to take it firmly into stage f is it your view that ryden was entitled
00:41:26 is it your view that ryden was entitled to rely on x over fulfilling its outstanding obligations under its appointment to the tmo
00:41:32 tmo is that one for mr hyatt um well it i it it is because i i mean well perhaps we should rephrase the question all right and from the from the the prudent architect's point
00:41:44 from the the prudent architect's point of view
00:41:45 of view having been as it were novated now to ryden
00:41:49 ryden would that prudent architect uh be entitled to expect x over to continue to fulfill its its obligations uh under its appointment
00:42:00 its obligations uh under its appointment to the tmo and continue to provide advice up to the end of its retainer at stage f i think i can best answer that by saying this is a
00:42:08 this is a pretty unusual and unsatisfactory situation i don't know how unusual it is actually again i've never done it or ordered that but it's a pretty unsatisfactory situation
00:42:19 unsatisfactory situation and i think that the arc the architect in terms of the safety of the project and responsibility for the project and to his new client
00:42:31 and to his new client needs to make sure that this matter is dealt with so perhaps the arctic should speak to the new the contractor client and say will you give me authority to go and
00:42:43 will you give me authority to go and speak to the tmo and make sure that we have an ongoing arrangement with xover informal as it might be that allows us to get the information we need but this needed to be closed out and when
00:42:55 this needed to be closed out and when you say this needs to be closed out what's the this the um the many times repeated two lines um so the the the
00:43:06 um so the the the uh production or confirmation uh through an analysis in a future issue of this year
00:43:11 year which in themselves have a horrible ambiguity in the line anyway but we know what we're talking about yes right in in your experience and in these particular circumstances again from a prudent architect's point
00:43:22 again from a prudent architect's point of view would you would you expect a design and build contractor or a client in the position of tmo ordinarily
00:43:31 ask the architect to make sure that the specialist fire safety engineer had the information necessary to be able to deliver the advice up to stage f
00:43:43 that that question is after innovation the arctic is now innovated um the
00:43:51 um the the contractor the design and build contractor is offering himself as a design and build contractor not just any contractor a designable contractor with management skills
00:44:04 with management skills they're going to manage the ongoing process of design development i think that they should have
00:44:11 have taken the driving seat here and ensured that a proper audit was done on the employers requirements
00:44:22 on the employers requirements documentation to make sure that it was complete and that any gaps were identified and instructions were given to fill them so i think that that that is my answer
00:44:35 so i think that that that is my answer yeah yes
00:44:36 yeah yes and just to tie up the i think one remaining loose end on this you may already have answered this question so forgive me mr hyatt but in your opinion ought the reasonably competent architect in this situation to have made it clear
00:44:47 in this situation to have made it clear to the design and build contractor that the work of the specialist fire consultant hadn't been completed under that fire consultant's pre-novation appointment
00:45:01 yes that is correct why i hesitate it is yes but not solely the architect there's a number of parties here yes the architect as well yes
00:45:12 in your experience would an architect novated to the designer build contractor ever insist on the appointment of a specialist fire safety consultant on a project such as this
00:45:27 if if i said that earlier in my evidence some architects would be very much more comfortable doing a building like this because they've done many of them if they felt very
00:45:39 many of them if they felt very comfortable no but you asked me earlier on should an architect assess their own abilities i think an arc this architect should have considered its own
00:45:51 should have considered its own experience and abilities this was the first time for building of this type and at one level it's pretty pretty complicated they could have they could have given
00:46:02 they could have they could have given the strongest recommendation if the contractor was not willing to accept that recommendation then it was for it was within their powers to say well we cannot continue on that basis
00:46:14 that basis yes i'm really disastrous that would have been a wise thing to do yes it may have been the wise thing to do what i'm really after is your opinion as a
00:46:23 as a as an expert hypothetical reasonably competent architect would that person navigate it to the dnb contractor as we've seen here in insist
00:46:34 contractor as we've seen here in insist on or advise in strong terms that its client the dnb contractor should appoint or take over the appointment of the specialist fire safety consultant on a project such
00:46:46 fire safety consultant on a project such as this a point another or take that one over that recommendation should have been clear they should have said we we need that help to do this properly and you
00:46:56 and you and if the architect didn't do that in your opinion would they be falling short of the standards expected of a reasonably if they weren't absolutely confident about their own ability alone then they were falling short
00:47:09 i'm sorry i've qualified it in that way because some some architects would have that competence but i i think these are clicks um
00:47:20 these are clicks um should have appreciated they didn't that the it's outstanding it needs to be dealt with and they should have given the strongest recommendation and same question again where the circumstances become that there
00:47:32 circumstances become that there is a material change in the materials specified with the tender documentation yes can we now turn to your supplemental report please at page five
00:47:45 p h y s six zero five page five
00:47:55 you can see paragraph 3.1.6.5 on that page
00:48:01 and you say there if as i infer from its statement xavier is suggesting that the cladding system includes the entirety of the overclouding work that was carried out under the 2012 to
00:48:13 that was carried out under the 2012 to 16 works
00:48:16 16 works which essentially comprised the thermal insulation rain screen clouding cavity barrier arrangements windows together with their infill panels and the internal window head jam and sill interfaces it is misleading for xavier to claim as it does at paragraph 5.1
00:48:28 to claim as it does at paragraph 5.1 that its work preceded the critical decisions
00:48:31 decisions in relation to the cladding system and as it does at paragraph 6.183 that every critical decision in relation to the cladding system was taken after that date
00:48:41 that date uh do you take issue uh with that and i think you also go on to say in the next paragraph um on the contrary two fundamental
00:48:52 um on the contrary two fundamental decisions relating to the elements of the overcladding work one relating to a choice of pir product for thermal insulation and the other relating to the extent and disposition of the cavity barriers were made prior to november 2013.
00:49:05 now it's right to think that celetex fr 5000 was specified in h92 of the nbs specification as we've seen
00:49:14 studio e didn't provide xover with a draft copy of the nbs specification in those circumstances mr hype would you expect the reasonably competent architect to do so yes yeah would you expect the
00:49:27 to do so yes yeah would you expect the reasonably competent architect to ask the
00:49:29 the specialist fire safety consultant expressly for advice in respect of the materials to be specified within the nbs specification
00:49:42 yes the the arc techniques needs to be comfortable that that over cladding is compliant i think you've told us earlier that you would also expect uh that view to be uh sought from the
00:49:54 uh that view to be uh sought from the uh specialist yes in relation to the cavity barrier strategy yes at that stage
00:49:59 stage yes yes uh or you would expect the architect to read off other advice provided by the specialist fire safety consultant when compiling the nbs that you'd make that point correct yes
00:50:11 that point correct yes now in september 2014 and indeed march 2015
00:50:16 2015 studio e did seek some advice from x over in respect of the cavity barrier placement or location and we've seen some of that before is your view that studio e ought as a as a reasonably competent
00:50:28 e ought as a as a reasonably competent architect to have sought such advice earlier in the design process yes absolutely and indeed in respect of the cavity barrier strategy in its entirety
00:50:36 entirety yes you clarified that before and on that do you think that studio e ought
00:50:43 ought acting as a reasonably competent architect to have involved x over in those decisions yes they were we're now pre-innovation the architect
00:50:54 we're now pre-innovation the architect is the lead consultant responsible for post novation oh sorry i beg your pardon september 2014 march 2015 is post novation
00:51:02 novation right so could you ask the question again
00:51:06 yes should studio e as a competent architect a reasonably competent architect to have sought the advice they did in september 2014 and march 2015
00:51:17 september 2014 and march 2015 at a much earlier stage namely pretender yes
00:51:20 yes absolutely yes i see i'm sorry that is correct yes yes
00:51:30 can i then turn to the topic of value engineering and i want to ask you some brief questions on that subject can i ask you to look at phyr5027 please
00:51:42 can i ask you to look at phyr5027 please at page four
00:51:46 and you say the paragraph 2.1.8 in relation to dame judith hackett and her report you say i believe that
00:51:57 and her report you say i believe that dame judith hackett is correct in suggesting that the culture within the uk construction industry has been orientated with an emphasis towards cost and value engineering at the detriment of safety
00:52:08 of safety of particular relevance to the circumstances of grenfell is the following quote that alludes to a tendency to transfer of responsibility for issues relating to safety ever further
00:52:18 further downstream and then you quote from the final report do you agree that this culture does not excuse
00:52:26 excuse the reasonably competent architect in the uk
00:52:30 the uk at the time of the grenfell tower project from considering the safety of the proposed changes brought about by a value engineering process i do and that it would be so in relation to
00:52:43 and that it would be so in relation to whether the process related to drawings or to materials or products specified yes correct do you believe that the phrase value engineering had
00:52:54 engineering had by 2012 become a euphemism for cost cutting
00:53:00 cutting [Music]
00:53:02 [Music] um i do
00:53:05 do you agree that in a true value engineering process the functionality of design would either be preserved for less cost or improved for the same cost as originally proposed
00:53:17 cost as originally proposed i'm sorry mr millet i've got to be very careful with answers like the one i just gave um could you restate the question about euphemism
00:53:27 euphemism yes do you believe that the phrase value engineering had by 2012 become a euphemism
00:53:34 euphemism for cost cutting
00:53:37 difficult to make a generalization many design-build contractors are highly competent and highly responsible and will interrogate the design
00:53:46 design with great effect and find more cheaper but not not worse less expensive is a better term less expensive ways of doing something
00:53:57 expensive ways of doing something that is value engine that's very useful and i don't want to give an answer that would dismiss the the good quality work of many many good design build
00:54:10 work of many many good design build contractors relating that back to your opinions about the uh hackett report that i've shown you at paragraph two point yeah 1.8 in your report
00:54:22 do you detect or looking back on it that in the period 2012 to 2016 value engineering had become part of the
00:54:34 value engineering had become part of the process or part of the exercise whereby a transfer of responsibilities for issues relating to safety went ever further downstream as you put it
00:54:49 i'm not sure i can link the two of those together
00:54:54 frantic cost
00:54:58 cost cutting exercises are common in the building industry and that is not a good thing
00:55:08 in that process many decisions that should be taken earlier are left till later and a very convenient way of dealing with responsibility is effectively to package it and pass it
00:55:21 effectively to package it and pass it elsewhere
00:55:22 elsewhere and i think that there has been a tendency to do that and the end result of that in this situation is that people who have not had proper training
00:55:34 have not had proper training to make decisions that they are making often against desperate constraints of time
00:55:40 time and isolated from those who could advise are making decisions about design and work
00:55:47 work and we see it with faulty specification and
00:55:50 and faulty design drawings that's a long answer i'm afraid but our industry is not in good shape in this respect in many many of its constituent parts
00:56:01 in many many of its constituent parts leaving aside the question of whether the the words value engineering had become a euphemism for cost cutting do you detect in your work looking back on the period
00:56:13 on the period that the principle the principles behind value engineering had become compromised such that people then approached the concept of value
00:56:24 then approached the concept of value engineering without adequately taking into account the importance of maintaining functionality and performance i i have a sense that that's taken place
00:56:35 i i have a sense that that's taken place uh i don't offer a holier-than-thou response but i have a sense that that has been a pressure within the industry but i i'm also um
00:56:46 but i i'm also um i i don't have any direct experience of that
00:56:49 that those that i have worked with have taken the work immensely responsibly um so value engineer i've never been under pressure
00:56:59 pressure uh to compromise safety or anything like that
00:57:04 that by contractors who are bringing great pressure to bear in terms of achieving greater cost efficiency but i have a sense that that is prevalent in in the wider industry
00:57:15 is prevalent in in the wider industry but it is only a sense do you consider that the role of the reasonably competent architect in a value engineering process properly so called and properly
00:57:27 properly so called and properly addressed
00:57:28 addressed would be to advise its client on the suitability of the proposed substitutions by way of materials or products absolutely
00:57:40 materials or products absolutely can i then turn to the final topic which is designing for for disability uh when acting as a lead consultant or lead designer from the outset of a
00:57:52 lead designer from the outset of a project with responsibility for design coordination is it an architect's role either itself to provide or at least to identify the need for specialist advice on
00:58:02 on access or functionality for those with restricted mobility and other disabilities i believe that is the case would it be incumbent on the reasonably competent architect as a lead
00:58:13 reasonably competent architect as a lead designer to make sure that the correct advice was given to the client as to the requirements in architectural terms for people with such disabilities well the correct advice has to be
00:58:25 well the correct advice has to be obtained by the design team and the design must reflect that advice
00:58:29 advice yes can i ask you then to turn to sea406551 please this is an email from adrian jess of studio e
00:58:40 studio e on the 12th of uh november 2012 to andrew mcquatt of max fordham and uh he's answering the
00:58:52 of max fordham and uh he's answering the question
00:58:53 question posed by andrew mccort the day before hi adrian are there going to be any new refuge areas in lobbies if there are i think i will need to provide a refuge telephone system to provide two-way voice communication between the
00:59:04 two-way voice communication between the fire refuge and reception it would be good to know if you are if you covered this with building control and mr jesse's response is no refuges mass evacuation is not part of the existing fire strategy
00:59:15 existing fire strategy and we are following their lead generally people stay in their flat unless their flat is on fire i assume the intention is for vulnerable people to refuge in other flats on the same floor before being
00:59:26 flats on the same floor before being evacuated by the fire brigade do you consider it reasonable for an architect to take the view that they would simply follow the client's lead as to what was required rather than giving advice about what was required in this
00:59:37 advice about what was required in this respect
00:59:44 um who where where is adrian jess from sorry his studio e
00:59:51 studio e right i'm just going to read it again with that
00:59:55 with that in my mind
01:00:07 at the time i think mr jess's answer seems to me to be a reasonable answer
01:00:15 answer now i put it to you on the basis that he was proposing to follow the client's lead it is of course possible that what he means is following building control's lead given that it's building control that's referred to in
01:00:26 building control that's referred to in the
01:00:27 the third sentence of mr mcquat's email that being said do you think it would be reasonable for an architect to take the view that they would simply follow building controls lead whatever that was in this respect rather than actually give thinking about
01:00:39 rather than actually give thinking about it and giving advice about what was required
01:00:41 required to its client
01:00:45 at that time i think we we all had a great deal of confidence in the compartmentation put
01:00:56 compartmentation put um strategy and i i i think that the response is reasonable today it would be very different well would it i understand that and thank you
01:01:07 would it i understand that and thank you but
01:01:07 but would we just press you a little bit more would you think or would you agree with me that the reasonably competent architect shouldn't make assumptions about
01:01:15 about what the fire strategy for people with disabilities was but should consult with the fire engineer if there was one as there was
01:01:24 there was as to the nature of that strategy
01:01:31 or the disability consultant so yes all the disability consultants is that your answer because if so it answers my next question
01:01:45 it's it's very difficult ideally yes i'm not sure how heavily i would criticize them for not but ideally yes and would a reasonably
01:01:57 but ideally yes and would a reasonably competent architect
01:02:00 consult a designed a disability design consultants instead of just proceeding on an assumption i think it's it's the same answer
01:02:11 i think it's it's the same answer yes thank you well now would he be expected to go himself to a disability consultant or this is before there's any donation so he is the principal designer isn't he
01:02:25 yes um
01:02:28 so i think i think the question is uh whether you think that studio e fell below the standard reasonably to be expected
01:02:37 expected by not making the running going to a disability consultant well if if i could just preface the answer i'll give
01:02:48 answer i'll give on product projects that i've recently been involved with um we go straight to a disability consultant because of the complex nature of that building type i'm now talking about the optus stadium this
01:03:02 talking about the optus stadium this building was already in operation it was managed by a professional client organization the architect is making
01:03:13 making very it's part of a team that are making various changes to the building um i don't i don't think that those changes um in the upper parts of the building
01:03:24 parts of the building were going to be significant to the organization of escape and the layout they were in the lower part of the building
01:03:32 building it was important therefore to have an expert fire consultant in for that lower area
01:03:40 area i'm not sure that an architect would necessarily
01:03:46 have required a disability consultant to step into a project of this kind because it was already occupied already
01:03:57 because it was already occupied already established in its operation
01:04:00 thank you yes thank you um well um mr hyatt
01:04:04 hyatt i've come to the end of my prepared questions you will be glad to hear uh and in any event mr chairman this is probably the right time for a break um if we take a break now i can then sweep up any further questions that i
01:04:16 sweep up any further questions that i may have or others outside this room may have yes that would be very convenient we'll miss tire we'll have a break now uh we'll come back at three right and see if there are any
01:04:27 three right and see if there are any more questions or not and um in the meantime please as before please thank you talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out thank you all right we'd like to go with the usher please
01:04:53 one for three then please thank you
01:28:17 would you ask us to hire to come back in please thank you
01:28:33 right mr howard we'll see if there are any more questions for you mr miller mr chairman yes just one or two topics um first mr hyatt have you ever applied the linear route
01:28:44 have you ever applied the linear route to compliance with sections 12 6 to 12 9 of approved document b in your practice yes yep you have yes
01:28:55 yes yep you have yes have you ever personally prepared a specification for a rain screen cladding system in your practice yes not me but yes
01:29:06 yes not me but yes you say not me but yes does that mean in your practice i have not but the practice has right were you involved yourself in that no not not in that no um i beg your
01:29:18 no not not in that no um i beg your pardon
01:29:19 pardon in this country no i was involved in the one in australia thank you have you ever developed a cavity barrier strategy for a high-rise residential property in practice
01:29:30 property in practice no i have not has your practice
01:29:36 um our practice is 1500 people globally somewhere they will have done it right many times i expect can i then turn to a different topic um
01:29:47 can i then turn to a different topic um where
01:29:48 where a value engineering exercise properly so called takes place and produces a new product to be specified and installed on a building in place of a products previously specified
01:30:01 place of a products previously specified would you expect the reasonably competent architect to maintain a clear documentary record of the change yes and what format would that clear
01:30:13 yes and what format would that clear documentary record take
01:30:18 when when what was before when in terms of what stage it's at what was before what is being proposed instead and
01:30:30 what is being proposed instead and any information to make absolutely clear the status of the before and the after which is drawings and specification notes would you expect the reasonably competent architect
01:30:41 competent architect to set up
01:30:44 to set up or agree with the design and build contractor with whom he was now working a change control
01:30:51 control structure or system yes well um i would expect it to be set up whether it was initiated from the contract
01:30:59 contract the design-build contractor or the architect
01:31:02 architect i would actually expect the design build contractor to set it up but if in the absence of that the arctic should call for it right
01:31:11 and would you expect the record whether it's a system of change control or any other sort of system would you expect that record to
01:31:22 would you expect that record to contain an investigation of how the product maintains the performance and functionality of the previously specified product and
01:31:34 of the previously specified product and compliance yes and compliance yes yes thank you very much
01:31:41 yes well mr hyatt thank you i've got no further questions for you and it only remains for me to express um the gratitude of both my team and
01:31:51 and and of myself for your assistance uh both over the last three days and in constructing the model and in your report work generally so thank you very much those are all the questions
01:32:02 questions yes well i think i should extend the gratitude of the inquiry as a whole and certainly the panel for all the work that's gone into producing your report that splendid model which is very
01:32:14 that splendid model which is very illuminating and the time you've taken to come here and give your evidence and we're very very grateful indeed so thank you very much
01:32:21 much thank you our entire industry sir and all the all the professions within it and my own included um i think there has to be a lot of um
01:32:32 um i think there has to be a lot of um a lot of very careful contemplation from here on
01:32:35 here on right well thank you for your part in what we're doing thank you very much thank you mr hyde thank you
01:32:53 thank you mr hyde thank you well mr millet uh that i think concludes the proceedings in module one is that right mr chairman i'm glad to say that it concludes all the evidence in module one the factual and expert
01:33:05 module one the factual and expert evidence there are of course closing submissions or statements to be made for module one at the end of module three but for the time being that is the end of module one i'm delighted to be able to tell you that and and others who are listening to this
01:33:17 and and others who are listening to this and it
01:33:18 and it therefore follows that module two will begin without pause for breath tomorrow morning
01:33:23 morning so we'll uh call halt there for today but we will meet again tomorrow morning at ten o'clock when we will embark upon module two thank you very much good
01:33:34 thank you very much good thank you very much ten o'clock tomorrow
01:33:48 please
01:34:44 you