Artelia Projects UK Evidence - Thursday 8th October 2020 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:12 yes strange now who do we have next yes mr chairman we have another artelia witness could we have mr neil reed please good thank you very much

00:00:34 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr reed good afternoon sit down make a i know you've been waiting quite

00:00:47 make a i know you've been waiting quite a while to give your evidence i'm sorry we've kept you waiting but that sometimes happens anyway we're ready to go now thank you all right yes yes thank you thank you mr reed for coming today

00:00:58 thank you mr reed for coming today and assisting the inquiry with its investigations it's very much appreciated um my questions are intended to be short and simple but if you have any difficulty understanding anything i'm asking you please ask me to repeat the question or

00:01:09 please ask me to repeat the question or put the point in a different way if you feel you need a break at any time please let us know and please keep your voice up so that the lady sitting to your right can take a nice clear note of your

00:01:21 can take a nice clear note of your evidence

00:01:22 evidence now you've made two statements to the inquiry if we go to the first this is a r t

00:01:27 r t four zeros triple six three

00:01:32 there we have it and if we turn on to page 39

00:01:37 page 39 we can see it's dated the 18th of october

00:01:40 october 2018 and is that your signature there it is and have you read it recently i have and are the contents true correct thank you and if we go to your

00:01:51 correct thank you and if we go to your second statement this is art four zeros nine four one nine

00:01:56 nine this is a shorter statement and if we go on to page six at the end we can see it's dated the 11th of march 2020

00:02:07 2020 and again is that your signature there on that page it is yes and have you read that statement recently i have and are the contents true

00:02:15 true great have you discussed your statements or your evidence with anybody before coming here today no no now if we go back to your first witness statement where you set out your qualifications i

00:02:27 where you set out your qualifications i want to first ask you about your background and your work history um so if we can go to that on page two this is art four zeros yes thank you and if we look at paragraph

00:02:38 at paragraph four so you tell us there that you graduated with a first class degree in construction management from south bank university in 1993 and since 1997 you've been a member of

00:02:50 and since 1997 you've been a member of the chartered institute of building and then since 2004 um you've been a member of the association for project management and do you still hold those memberships

00:03:02 and do you still hold those memberships now i do

00:03:04 now i do yep and in paragraph five you tell us that you began working for artelia in 2001 and between 2008 and 2014 you were a director of project

00:03:15 director of project management at artelia is that correct yes

00:03:19 yes and then in 2014 you were appointed as one of two heads of project delivery at artelia

00:03:26 artelia is that correct that's correct were those senior roles within artelia yes very senior roles within artelia um well i was a director of a team yeah

00:03:38 um well i was a director of a team yeah and a member of the management board for a period

00:03:42 a period yeah can you explain to us what your role as joint head of project delivery involved

00:03:49 um at that time from 2014 i was looking after a team from memory of around four or five project managers are looking after a

00:04:01 project managers are looking after a range of projects and accounts as we would call them in the business client accounts where i was responsible for delivering

00:04:12 where i was responsible for delivering our services to those clients and being a project manager on on some of the projects myself

00:04:18 myself yeah can you help us where were you in comparison to mr cash in terms of levels of seniority within artelia um

00:04:31 sorry as the head of project delivery yes uh i think it probably would have been a

00:04:35 been a a notch below simon i think i remember i think simon remained a board member management board member yeah and is it right that your role on the grenfell tower refurbishment was to come in as employers agent

00:04:47 employers agent that's correct yeah and you took over that role from philip booth in march 2015 is that correct yes and um you tell us in paragraph six

00:04:58 yes and um you tell us in paragraph six of your statement that you left artelia in july 2015 and you formed your own company called resole group limited is that right that's correct but um just to confirm is it right that

00:05:10 but um just to confirm is it right that despite leaving artelia you continued to work on the grenfell project i did and did you continue to work on the grenfell project in the same capacity that is as employers agent yes

00:05:22 employers agent yes and is it right your company was appointed by artelia pursuant to a consultancy service agreement in july 2015. yes and did you continue in that role as

00:05:34 and did you continue in that role as employers agents albeit on a consultancy to artelia did you continue through to practical completion in july 2016.

00:05:43 2016. that's correct

00:05:46 and is it right that pursuant to that consultancy service agreement when the certificate of practical completion was signed your appointment on the project ended is that right that's right yeah

00:05:59 is it right that you've worked in construction management roles for the the entire length of your career since the mid 1990s

00:06:08 yes we need to be careful with the term construction management but i i was involved in in managerial roles in both contracting and consulting

00:06:19 in both contracting and consulting environments yes thank you yes that's helpful

00:06:22 helpful and would it be right to say that you are very experienced in the management of construction projects i think that's a fair comment yes now before the grenfell tower refurbishment

00:06:33 before the grenfell tower refurbishment project

00:06:34 project had you personally ever worked on any high-rise residential projects before

00:06:41 i'd worked on a project very early on with um a uk in the early naughties around around 2002 or three

00:06:52 around around 2002 or three on on uh three ten story tower blocks yeah that involved um window replacements yeah works facade repairs not not not cladding so

00:07:05 facade repairs not not not cladding so to speak yeah

00:07:08 with with residents staying in place yes that's helpful yeah and what about any projects high-rise projects involving the over-cladding of the building had you been involved in

00:07:19 the building had you been involved in any such projects before this one no had you ever worked on any projects which had involved acm cladding whether low rise or high rise no

00:07:30 no not to the best of my knowledge anyway yeah

00:07:34 now we know that you took over from philip booth as employers agent in march 2015

00:07:40 2015 and is it right that the time you took over it was anticipated that there were just a few months left until practical completion some six or seven months left at that point

00:07:49 point i think that's correct yes is it difficult to take over a project as employers agent at such an advanced stage is that a difficult thing to do

00:08:02 it it can be challenging but but many many projects involve the same skills yeah so whilst you might there's obviously historical

00:08:13 you might there's obviously historical context that gets lost in that process it's inevitable um yeah and is it right that you were assisted in the employer's agent role by nick valente and later andrew malcolm

00:08:25 nick valente and later andrew malcolm both of whom were deputy employers agents is that right that's correct yeah

00:08:32 were you told why mr philip booth was leaving what were you told about his departure and why you were being brought on

00:08:39 on i don't really recall other than i i i thought that philip was leaving the business is what i recall yeah i think now philip booth has explained to us that between march 2015

00:08:52 explained to us that between march 2015 and june 2015 when he was appointed to another full-time project you essentially had a handover period for the employer agent role is that is that right that's not what i recall

00:09:05 is that right that's not what i recall okay what do you mean i may be mistaken but i

00:09:09 but i i don't believe there was a handover from philip um in the way you described the handover if that's the right term came

00:09:17 came from simon so i don't i don't remember sitting down with philip persay and going through detail i mean that's my recollection yeah let's look at an email this is

00:09:34 art406678 it's an email from um simon cash to david gibson at the tmo copying in a number of individuals claire williams

00:09:45 number of individuals claire williams philip b then also yourself there you're copied in

00:09:49 copied in headed grenfell tower and we can see that he says further to our conversation this morning i appreciate that things are progressing with the grenfell tower and the artelia team have developed a good working relationship with the tmo

00:10:01 good working relationship with the tmo in particular claire however a number of projects that philip booth is working on have bunched up for various reasons and his availability to give this project the input that it really needs to make it a success has come under a

00:10:12 to make it a success has come under a lot of pressure therefore to maintain the level of service that is necessary i would like to introduce a new senior project manager to the project neil reed is head of project delivery

00:10:24 neil reed is head of project delivery for the

00:10:25 for the project management team is that pm team that's correct yeah and has a wealth of experience of working on this type of project i've had a briefing session with both neil and nick valente

00:10:36 neil and nick valente and neil is already getting well up to speed on the current issues that need to be dealt with on the project neil will be attending the project meeting tomorrow and hopefully we'll have an opportunity of meeting him then so we can see that that's how

00:10:48 him then so we can see that that's how you are

00:10:50 you are introduced to the project now just a few questions about that it refers there to a briefing session from um simon cash that he had with you

00:11:04 from um simon cash that he had with you and nick valente does that coincide with what you were just telling us a moment ago that it was simon cash who introduced you to the project gave you a handover

00:11:15 handover but not philip booth that's correct

00:11:18 and there's reference there to getting neil is get already getting well up to speed on the current issues that's in the

00:11:26 the final lines there um can you recall what were the current issues which you were being told about at that stage

00:11:36 um i recall the the project was in some delay

00:11:41 delay i would call distressed um and

00:11:48 that that i think that was the main theme of that conversation was it was in distress

00:11:51 distress yeah the um the tmos client had a had a hands-on role so the the the arrangement around

00:12:02 so the the the arrangement around us us as i'll tell you having no design responsibility was made clear to me [Music]

00:12:09 [Music] and i think it was fairly soon after this conversation it was a meeting um that's that's really all i recall those are the themes from that first meeting yeah

00:12:24 from that first meeting yeah so we know from your terms of appointment to the grenfell project and your

00:12:29 your your consultancy services that essentially that refers back to the scope of services in artelia's contract from july 2014 can i check did you

00:12:41 from july 2014 can i check did you yourself read the contract between artelia and the tmo when you were appointed

00:12:50 and when you were when you took over did you understand that you were not the designated project manager for the refurbishment i did we see here in this email kind of in the middle of the of that

00:13:02 kind of in the middle of the of that paragraph that simon cash there says therefore to maintain the level of service that is necessary i would like to introduce a new senior project manager to the project

00:13:13 project do you know why simon cash was referring to you as project manager there or in what way was he using that word all those words well it is synonymous with my my role rather than the service so

00:13:26 my role rather than the service so i i am a project manager i am referred to as a project manager yeah what i do is project management so elements what i do is project management so um that's quite normal

00:13:37 so um that's quite normal to see that but were you clear that your role was as employers agent and not project manager very clear yeah can you help us in your own words about the difference between a project

00:13:49 about the difference between a project manager and an employer's agent

00:13:53 okay an employer's agent is a is a unique term used um by the jct design involved contract

00:14:07 to administer the terms and obligations under the build contract project management project manager is a role is a function um and

00:14:19 role is a function um and in my experience would often go much broader

00:14:23 broader than the services that are provided by an ea yeah it's it's that simple a project manager by definition would do everything and anything required of a project that perhaps the ea is not doing yeah

00:14:36 that perhaps the ea is not doing yeah and is it right that a project manager would usually have some form of delegated authority to be able to make decisions on behalf of the client yeah that's quite normal yeah yes in your experience

00:14:49 yeah yes in your experience do refurbishment projects like the grenfell tower project need a properly trained designated project manager in the way we've just been discussing with

00:15:00 the way we've just been discussing with oversight of the whole project do they need that kind of skill

00:15:07 i would say so yes can could you do a refurbishment project like the grenfell tower project without a designated project manager

00:15:21 we talk about project manager as a person

00:15:25 person rather than as a team um so project management can be done by virtue of

00:15:31 virtue of a person an individual or a person being supported by a variety of other people with the skills to support that person yeah on the grenfell tower project did you

00:15:43 on the grenfell tower project did you understand that there had been a designated project manager appointed sorry could you repeat that on the grenfell tower project did you understand that there have been a designated project manager appointed

00:15:57 designated project manager appointed i'll put it more simply who did you think was the project manager on the grenfeld project i i understood claire williams of the tmo

00:16:08 claire williams of the tmo was the employer's representative was was providing all the other functions that would be required in a project management sense yeah and extended into a quite significant design

00:16:19 significant design function in terms of architectural compliance that was my understanding from the outset yeah and just help us with that last part of your answer you said that would that extend it into quite a significant design function

00:16:31 design function in terms of architectural compliance can you just help us as to exactly what you mean in practice that meant you understood claire williams to be doing yeah of course okay so when i came on board um for the

00:16:43 okay so when i came on board um for the design and build project is very often the case that a design team is either retained to provide what used to be called may still be called

00:16:54 used to be called may still be called performance duties i.e retained by the client

00:16:57 client to provide an oversight function in terms of the contractors design and build delivery where that team

00:17:04 team would be and compliance checking and auditing

00:17:07 auditing the contractor's proposals and what the contractor wanted to do against the contract documents when i came on board it became very apparent very quickly

00:17:18 apparent very quickly that max faldon were being retained in the capacity of m e engineer which which was normal to see

00:17:27 see but i had come to recognize that i think it's studio e when novate were either novated or switched i think is the term in the industry they wouldn't they went on to work for the builder

00:17:38 they went on to work for the builder which for me meant okay so who is going to be providing the oversight function in terms of architectural compliance that led to me my understanding around the offer

00:17:49 the offer in relation to the client design advice advisor role yeah that i'll tell you offered the the tmo yeah where i'd learned that they declined

00:17:59 declined that role and it was very clear to me that the tmo and claire williams made the decision they would provide that function themselves and that was very very important because

00:18:10 and that was very very important because i needed to know in coming on board well you know who are my team is in essence that are going to be

00:18:15 be monitoring this project with me um does that like that answer your question yes and in practice did you ever become aware that the tmo

00:18:26 did you ever become aware that the tmo were carrying out that compliance checking

00:18:29 checking against the contract document function that you've just described sorry can you repeat the question yeah in practice were you aware that the tmo were in fact carrying

00:18:40 aware that the tmo were in fact carrying out that compliance checking function that you've just described well i saw claire um actively involved in discussions around design matters and making

00:18:52 around design matters and making decisions and offering direction which is what i would expect to see yeah but when i'd come on board i also understand that the tmo taking the decision to appoint a clerk of works or site inspectorate

00:19:05 a clerk of works or site inspectorate role

00:19:05 role to support them in my view in fulfilling that duty which again would be quite normal

00:19:10 normal yeah so who i mean you've spoken about that there is a need on the client side for somebody doing a compliance checking role

00:19:20 role did you understand as taken in turn that claire williams was checking for compliance say with the building regulations um not so much the building regulations

00:19:32 um not so much the building regulations i think that's a separate in a way that's a separate matter because the building regulations are governed by the building control process and the building control officer so i mean that's a separate that's a separate

00:19:43 mean that's a separate that's a separate work stream they sit they sit by side by side in terms of the rest of the the um the requirements in terms of compliance checking i i i understood the tmo and claire

00:19:55 i i understood the tmo and claire williams

00:19:56 williams were monitoring the contractors proposals

00:19:59 proposals b day statements drawings or otherwise setting out what they were proposing to do in response to their obligations under the contract

00:20:07 contract yeah so i saw that i saw that happening in dialogue in email communication mainly etc and that would include checking that what was being proposed by the contractor as you say either in

00:20:18 the contractor as you say either in drawings specifications etc was consistent with what was in the employer's requirements correct and take the tmo then sorry the clerk of works then and we'll

00:20:29 sorry the clerk of works then and we'll talk about them and do course sure john rowan and did you understand at the time that it was part of their role

00:20:37 role to be checking the works for compliance with the employers requirements that was my understanding yes did you also understand that they were checking the works for compliance with statutory

00:20:49 the works for compliance with statutory requirements including the building regulations i wouldn't necessarily be expecting to do that explicitly but to explain if the design had obtained its building regulations

00:21:01 had obtained its building regulations approval the building regulations pro process involves a full plans approval the plans are submitted when they're when they're when they're available submitted to building control they would approve the plans first

00:21:12 they would approve the plans first and then their inspections would follow later so if the contractor had submitted proposals that had achieved their full plans approval by virtue of the builder building out

00:21:23 by virtue of the builder building out those plans and people checking against those plans they would be checking what in theory would be complying with the building regulations yeah but it's not per se looking at the drawings checking

00:21:35 drawings checking yeah against codes of practice themselves i understand but that seems doesn't it that there has been some form of checking of some form of crystallized design

00:21:46 design as part of the full plans application yes

00:21:49 yes yeah absolutely

00:21:52 now did you ever feel that in practice on the project you were pulled into performing the role of project manager

00:22:03 of project manager as opposed to the role of employers agent

00:22:10 um

00:22:15 we had a scope of duties to deliver some of those duties might be construed as

00:22:23 as project management type duties example monitoring performance yes it's a project management duty yeah what's key here is what were the duties required of what was described in

00:22:35 duties required of what was described in that contract as an ea yeah so that's what mattered yeah we were either appointed to do something or we weren't yeah it was always that simple to me

00:22:47 yeah it was always that simple to me did you perceive that the tmo had a clear understanding of the distinction between the employer employers agent role and the project management role i think so yes because

00:23:02 they were undertaking project management for example they were managing stakeholders it's a fairly significant role they were managing the appointment of the design team they were managing the design process

00:23:14 they were managing the design process these are very key functions of what would otherwise be known as project management in the industry yeah now you come into the project in the spring of 2015 so

00:23:25 the project in the spring of 2015 so that's during the construction phase of the project can you tell us what was your what were your first impressions at the point you came in of ryden

00:23:36 of ryden um my first impressions of ryden were were pretty good i was i was impressed with

00:23:43 with mr lawrence simon lawrence um he was someone who was very easy to talk to um i mean

00:23:51 i mean the project was in some significant delay and

00:23:54 delay and i very quickly gained an insight into what i saw as the key issues for the project

00:24:00 project and just help us i'll i mean i'm going to take you through it and take you to some key documents in a moment but um what were the key issues as you saw them on the project once you've got familiar

00:24:12 on the project once you've got familiar with where it was at there were two two key issues for me [Music]

00:24:19 [Music] the the delay itself which i think was one issue the there appeared to be significant change ongoing change which would be quite

00:24:30 ongoing change which would be quite unusual

00:24:32 unusual in month nine of a construction project that that's going to cause some challenges and some issues for for the team to manage but my immediate concern in terms of looking at the sort

00:24:45 concern in terms of looking at the sort of broader high level issues um were the lack of access to flats that it became very apparent to me very quickly we're going to cause a significant problem for tmo

00:24:57 significant problem for tmo and indeed ryden's but it's tmo's problem

00:25:01 problem if the tmo cannot provide access for its contractor right and that i mean that was very very very key yeah

00:25:09 key yeah what about your first impressions of the tmo when you began working with them um working with them i mean i met

00:25:20 um working with them i mean i met i met claire forged a quick

00:25:27 effective relationship with with claire um

00:25:30 um i i understood that we were working with um

00:25:34 um a large organization involved in in much capital work of this nature right the impression i got yeah can we look at what you say in your

00:25:45 yeah can we look at what you say in your first witness statement now um paragraph 13 this is art four zeros triple six three on page three

00:25:56 triple six three on page three so um you say there the project was in delay and i was keen to introduce some improved process around ryden's engagement the need to improve process is reflected

00:26:07 the need to improve process is reflected in an email i sent to the tmo max fordham on the 19th of march 2015 in which i noted that i had already asked ryden for an information required schedule and i said i would be introducing some

00:26:19 i said i would be introducing some improved discipline by ryden to the resolution of queries decisions etc the need to improve process was also recognized by claire williams of the tmo in an email to tony batty of silcot

00:26:31 in an email to tony batty of silcot dawson dated the 20th of march 2015. now just going back to what you said in the first lines of that paragraph you said you were keen to introduce some improved process

00:26:42 process around ryden's engagement can you help us to exactly what you mean by that yes i think as i say when i when i arrived it became

00:26:54 when i arrived it became on the run up to the meeting and soon after the meeting i thought that i thought there were there was too much there was far too much email traffic around matters that constituted change

00:27:06 around matters that constituted change and doubt about whether something was in or out of the contract and it's quite normal to see a contractor adopting a request for information schedule in

00:27:18 request for information schedule in order to track the nature of their questions

00:27:20 questions and ensure they're closed out so i think that was missing um you wouldn't expect to see it at month nine so hence the suggestion to

00:27:31 so hence the suggestion to improve the situation by suggesting we we introduced that to bring some improved discipline to um the change management process yeah i

00:27:42 um the change management process yeah i understand can we go um to one of the emails you're referring to there this is art40665 this is the email on the 19th of march between you and max fordham

00:27:54 between you and max fordham this is matt smith and claire williams

00:27:59 and i think it's concerning flats which were required disabled access and whether certain flats were compliant with the lifetime home standards do you agree

00:28:11 that's the subject heading isn't it yeah yes

00:28:15 yes and then in the second paragraph so just to pick it up there you say matt i appreciate we have not spoken yet but look forward to working with you and introducing some improved discipline

00:28:27 and introducing some improved discipline by ryden to the resolution of queries decisions etc you'd be very welcome to attend the meeting so by copy to nick i will ask him to invite you so we can meet and discuss

00:28:37 discuss project status quo so that's consistent with

00:28:41 with what you were just describing to us is that right about introducing some discipline over the resolution of queries decisions etc yes

00:28:54 did you perceive that that problem you've described about a lot of email traffic

00:28:59 traffic and rate riding raising queries formally through the request for information the rfi

00:29:04 rfi process rather than um anything else was that a substantive problem or was it just a communication issue did you think

00:29:21 i'd say a bit of both actually yeah yeah both

00:29:25 both yeah and and in terms of it being a substantive issue what would your concern be fundamentally about

00:29:33 about this email traffic and all these requests for information coming out i mean did you have a concern about quality for example at this point no no not quality no

00:29:44 quality no no i think

00:29:47 change on a design and build contract can lead to significant cost increase so you you need to get a grip on the change yeah um which i think we did um so i was

00:30:01 yeah um which i think we did um so i was just concerned to to identify you know okay what's going what's going on here what's yeah we're on site we're nine months in we've got a program we've got a scope work to finish

00:30:10 finish but there's a lot of discussion around is this in is this out what are we doing with this this has changed again very unusual yeah so you need to close that down as quickly and effectively as possible

00:30:21 and effectively as possible so that you know the out-turn certainty can be created around the program and and

00:30:27 and the cost of these things yeah i understand let's look at another email now and this time in relation to the work on the lifts if we can go to art art406659

00:30:39 art406659 this is an email from you to mr campbell at max fordham and we can see it's dated the 8th of april 2015.

00:30:52 april 2015. and you you say duncan i'm still slowly getting up to speed with the status of this project sorry i should have noted it the subject is grenfell fee claim and lifts um yes and then

00:31:06 um yes and then i want to pick up on that very substant that bigger paragraph at the bottom of that page it's the sixth paragraph down you say my understanding is that there are no ers or cps is that employers

00:31:17 ers or cps is that employers requirements or contractors proposals for the lift works ryden has allowed for the work they described by loose reference to drawings i find this incredible but it appears to be a reality

00:31:28 be a reality hence the concern now being aired by tmo over who needs to do what even though works are starting on site

00:31:35 site in a nutshell i would recommend you scope out the work that needs to be done cognizant of what ryden is doing in performance teams with deliverables and requirements around matters of interface

00:31:47 requirements around matters of interface interface with lift maintenance team warranty providers etc we can then issue this to ryden as a variation and agree the implications of anything considered beyond the current scope of contract

00:32:02 now just in terms of the effect of there being no ers or cp no employers requirements or contractors proposals so does that mean

00:32:13 contractors proposals so does that mean that there was in effect no clarity on what the contractor had to do for this part of the works

00:32:19 the works i think that's correct other than what would have been indicated on the drawings which i think was very little yeah and therefore no way to hold ride into account for what they actually did

00:32:30 into account for what they actually did do

00:32:30 do in practice on the lifts yeah at this moment

00:32:34 moment yeah yes and there was a risk that ryden's price for the lift work would be wrong

00:32:39 wrong wasn't there if that's the case it might be wrong but the the price had to be predicated on something and would there be a risk that

00:32:50 something and would there be a risk that in practice ryden might cut corners on the work without it being picked up if you've got no baseline before you start um

00:33:02 there's there possibly is that risk that's true yeah can you help us with this was this a one-off problem with the lift package or did you feel at the time that this was symptomatic of a wider problem

00:33:15 this was symptomatic of a wider problem on the project no i think this one was unique

00:33:17 unique okay yeah

00:33:24 okay yeah was your experience of ryden any different from other design and build contractors that you'd worked with before it came to be yes can you explain why it came to be

00:33:37 yes can you explain why it came to be in short

00:33:42 there was significant personnel change yeah on the project and

00:33:51 i began to grow frustrated with performance related issues with the team that we were working with that culminated in some complaints

00:34:03 that culminated in some complaints yeah about performance yes i'm going to take you to those later evidence yes okay so but certainly the front end

00:34:10 front end um i had no misconceptions i was i was very happy with the way the team were working yeah and the attitude that they were taking to the

00:34:20 to the discussions that we were having about the project okay yeah let's go to another email from from early on in your involvement this is art406629

00:34:30 art406629 this is an email from you to claire williams on the 9th of april 2015.

00:34:38 its subject is grenfell and you say claire thanks for your email of yesterday suggesting a meeting to discuss artelia's fee account i agree we should meet i would like to

00:34:49 i agree we should meet i would like to propose a broader meeting objective and agenda for the following reasons with my limited involvement to date i hold a perception that one the scope of work that ryden is

00:35:00 that one the scope of work that ryden is doing

00:35:00 doing is not as well understood as it could be there is significant email traffic of what is considered to be in the contract two the roles and responsibilities of all parties

00:35:11 all parties do not appear as clear to me as they could be processes for resident liaison clerk of work scope architectural compliance monitoring for example

00:35:21 example three new risks and issues are arising that need managing mitigating and for which financial provision is required in terms of build cost

00:35:29 cost and consultant fee implications and then you go on to propose a meeting to discuss those issues at a later stage that's right isn't it that's correct

00:35:41 now i think you've already helped us with point one the scope of the works that ryden is doing is not as well understood as it could be

00:35:49 could be you've touched on that already but just to be clear who did you think didn't understand the scope well is it ryden themselves or the tmo

00:36:07 ryden on account of the change changes that were apparent i see so was it your perception that ryden hadn't properly understood their

00:36:19 ryden hadn't properly understood their original scope of works and therefore were raising queries about changes when actually

00:36:25 actually they ought to have known what the original scope of works was is that the point

00:36:29 point no do you want to help me then on i'm trying exactly what ryden wasn't understanding as well as it could i think the outcome of

00:36:40 think the outcome of this particular meeting scheduled out the key headings where uh there were change i think you know ryden

00:36:48 ryden i i got a good impression that ryden writing knew what they needed to do but they were encumbered from doing some of the things they needed to do by virtue of what they were faced with on site

00:36:59 site so the hius for example were a very good example

00:37:02 example that's the heat interface unit correct yes so

00:37:05 yes so the assumptions and on which the strategy for that work was based i think was turned out to be flawed

00:37:14 flawed and there was opportunity not sorry an opportunity there was a requirement to revisit how they were going to achieve the the you know the out the outcome of that

00:37:25 the you know the out the outcome of that piece of work i see yeah that's helpful and looking at point two

00:37:30 two you're saying it's your perception that the roles and responsibilities of all parties

00:37:34 parties do not appear as clear to me as they could be

00:37:38 can you just if we just break this down um you've got processors for resident liaison

00:37:46 why were you concerned about roles and responsibilities in relation to that okay so um coming into the project when i did

00:37:56 i did um one of the areas that hadn't had much discussion if you like was about resident liaison which was going to be a very key theme on this project yeah so that was probably more to do with my misunderstanding at this time hence

00:38:08 misunderstanding at this time hence perception that i understood that tmo were very well so very they were engaged with the residents and ryden had i think two or three resident

00:38:20 ryden had i think two or three resident liaison officers on the ground so there was a process in place um and i understood that claire was in essence managing that process why at this point did you think that the processes weren't

00:38:32 did you think that the processes weren't as clear

00:38:33 as clear as they could be because it wasn't apparent to me um that resident liaison was was happening in the way it was i think because i mean

00:38:44 think because i mean i wasn't privy to some of the information i think of eventually around this time um i think um some some minutes of a meeting was shared to me so it started to become clear yeah that there was a process in place

00:38:56 there was a process in place and then clark of work scope yes help us as to

00:39:00 as to what you didn't think was as clear as it could be on clerk of work scope

00:39:06 um

00:39:12 the tmo had appointed um jrp to to come on board and provide an inspection service um but at this moment in time

00:39:24 service um but at this moment in time um i wasn't clear what their full scope was

00:39:27 was because i i came to learn very quickly that they had not been attending progress meetings yeah which puzzled me yeah um

00:39:35 yeah um so this was really just about understanding the context for their onboarding because i don't think they were there from the outset yeah i don't know when they started but and

00:39:43 and it wasn't entirely clear to me what what they were

00:39:47 they were what they were doing did you subsequently gain a clear understanding of what they were doing i'd i gained a clearer understanding yes because

00:39:56 because i think i held a meeting with them in june with claire and with ryden i don't think it's a meeting that was formally minuted

00:40:07 formally minuted which is unfortunate and unusual but the meeting took place nonetheless and there are notes of that meeting from my notebook yeah did you think it was part of your obligations as an employer's agent

00:40:19 obligations as an employer's agent to ensure that there was more clarity for example around the clerk of works and what they were doing yes in this instance i think that was correct yeah

00:40:31 you also specifically mentioned here architectural compliance monitoring that wasn't clear can you help us as to precisely what you meant by that

00:40:39 by that so this is this is the the area we were discussing earlier where as a result of not taking up the client design advisor role and

00:40:51 client design advisor role and understanding that tmo were doing we're doing that this was me wanting to prompt um you know how that was going to be happening

00:41:01 happening on the understanding that the tro are going to be fulfilling that service yeah yeah so these are these are the three areas that i was i was immediately interested in were you ever concerned that a lack

00:41:14 in were you ever concerned that a lack of architectural compliance monitoring on the project might be putting health and safety at risk

00:41:22 no okay

00:41:26 now you've said that in that email that you felt that roles and responsibilities of all parties weren't as clear as they could be

00:41:33 could be wasn't it part of artelia's job as employers agent to clarify those roles and responsibilities and did you feel that that was something that perhaps should have happened already

00:41:44 already on the project

00:41:50 so that's two questions so fair enough the first

00:41:53 the first the first question yes um i think uh the duty to understand the roles and responsibilities it's the judy i believe i discharged

00:42:04 it's the judy i believe i discharged um and then answering that i forgot your second question yeah did did you think that artelia should have got on top of that earlier in the project were you surprised that the roles and responsibilities weren't clear

00:42:16 responsibilities weren't clear well my my perception of the situation wasn't suggesting that something hadn't been done

00:42:20 been done this was just my perception at that moment in time that these things weren't clear to me i think what what bore out soon after was it the process for resident the

00:42:31 was it the process for resident the asian was actually quite thorough

00:42:37 the architectural compliance clearly was a function of the tmo um the only area that i think warranted a further a dialogue and discussion was

00:42:49 further a dialogue and discussion was really the clerk of work scope yeah so in my view you know this was really about me um the roles and responsibilities of everyone else were pretty clear i see

00:43:00 everyone else were pretty clear i see okay

00:43:01 okay now we can see from the documents that there was then a meeting as you suggested on and it was held on the 17th of april 2015 to address some of the issues that you'd raised if we can go to art

00:43:14 raised if we can go to art 406657

00:43:17 406657 this is a an email chain from april 2015 and we can see there in the main body of that page is an email from nick valente

00:43:29 nick valente to claire williams and simon lawrence copying you and sorry you're it's to you as well and it's a grenfell contract scope review meeting 17th of april 2015

00:43:40 review meeting 17th of april 2015 actions are rising and what we see clearly is that a number of issues were discussed at this meeting and we've got the headings there lift aov windows

00:43:51 lift aov windows i think then we've got the heating interface units cyclical declaration decorations and external work so a number of specific packages of work were discussed at this

00:44:02 packages of work were discussed at this point

00:44:03 point um but did anyone discuss at this meeting

00:44:07 meeting the issues about roles and responsibility that you'd raised in your email because we can't see anything about

00:44:13 about architectural compliance monitoring or clerk of work scope in the notes that we see here of that meeting

00:44:20 meeting yeah um i don't honestly remember i thought we would have but of course what's going on between the meetings is i'm forging a

00:44:31 between the meetings is i'm forging a relationship with claire and there are conversations and there are emails in the background these notes demonstrate that we were talking

00:44:41 talking fundamentally about the scope the scope issues

00:44:45 issues yeah i don't recall at this meeting whether we talked about those other things specifically okay in your view at this time did the project need stronger project management as opposed

00:44:56 stronger project management as opposed to

00:44:57 to just contract administration

00:45:03 stronger project management i don't know what that means i think what what the project needed was clarity on what was required with regard to these

00:45:16 was required with regard to these particular themes of work and decisions made which in turn relied on

00:45:22 on the cost implications of the changes yeah so there's a bit of a circle there that required management and decision making yeah i understand

00:45:34 understand now um i just want to ask you some questions now about the fire strategy and

00:45:38 and the the appointment that the tmo had made with x over the the fire safety engineers

00:45:47 is it right that during your time on the project various issues arose which required some input from x over

00:45:58 um i i wouldn't i don't recall being aware of aware of that specifically okay let's look at one example if we go to exo

00:46:08 to exo four zeros one three four two this is an email from claire williams to terry ashton it's the 19th of october

00:46:19 terry ashton it's the 19th of october 2015.

00:46:20 2015. so sometime after you've become involved in the project and you are copied in together with your assistant andrew malcolm can you see that there yes and the subject is grenfell tower

00:46:32 yes and the subject is grenfell tower changes to floor layout and what we can see in this email is claire williams um is asking for some advice from terry

00:46:43 is asking for some advice from terry ashton about changes to the fire alarm system following changes that have been made to the layout now do you recall sometimes being copied

00:46:54 now do you recall sometimes being copied into emails between say the tmo and xover like this one

00:47:00 one no

00:47:04 did you ever review the subcontractor appointments to ride in at any time while working on the project so did you ever look at who ryden had appointed on the project

00:47:18 well you asked me two questions the first was did i review their their contracts no they're subcontracted so no that that wouldn't be normal yeah

00:47:29 so no that that wouldn't be normal yeah the second question in terms of the who they were employing part of their progress report arrangement would be to essentially schedule out which subcontractors

00:47:40 subcontractors they're engaging with for the elements that constituted the work yeah that's as far as i would be interested okay when you got an email like this who did you think

00:47:51 like this who did you think um xover were contracted to in in providing this advice did you have an awareness at the time of who they were

00:48:00 were in contract with

00:48:03 um no so you wouldn't have known whether they had been engaged by ryden as part of their consultant team you

00:48:15 as part of their consultant team you wouldn't have known whether they were or not

00:48:17 not engaged by ryden i i think i came to uh believe that that x over were uh were an advisor to ryden that's

00:48:29 uh were an advisor to ryden that's recall

00:48:30 recall that was my understanding i see how do you think you came to believe that what was it that gave you that impression i think that in a progress meeting

00:48:38 meeting one or two this came up in conversation and then maybe a minute i may be mistaken

00:48:43 mistaken but that's uh that's my recollection did you appreciate at the time that xover was giving ad hoc advice to tmo and the design team ad

00:48:53 ad as and when needed no if you'd known that at the time would that have surprised you that that was the basis on which xover was providing advice on a

00:49:05 providing advice on a as and when needed ad hoc basis would that have been surprising not necessarily enough

00:49:12 did you ever consider whether that was a satisfactory way of involving a fire consultant on the project

00:49:20 um that wouldn't be something i'd be thinking about did you ever see x over's appointment to the tmo

00:49:29 the tmo in terms of what xover had promised the tmo

00:49:32 tmo they would do back in 2012. no

00:49:38 were you ever asked to check whether a final version of the fire strategy had been prepared by x over sorry could you repeat the question were you ever asked to check whether a final

00:49:49 you ever asked to check whether a final version of the fire strategy for the building had been prepared by x over no

00:49:56 were you ever made aware that there was no final

00:50:00 no final fire strategy prepared by xover that addressed

00:50:03 addressed the building as it had been built as opposed to perhaps what was proposed at design stage no [Applause]

00:50:16 so and i want to ask you a few questions about how the design decisions were made on the project can we start with your first witness statement if we can go to a this is art406663 on page three

00:50:30 this is art406663 on page three and i want to look at what you say at paragraph 10.

00:50:35 so this is where you're describing the scope of the employer's agent role and you say the specifics of the employer's agent role do

00:50:42 do however vary from contract to contract depending on exactly what services are ticked

00:50:48 ticked in the rics employers agent services schedule that form part of the ea's contract

00:50:53 contract i recall that when i was introduced to the project the scope of artelia's ea role was very explicit in terms of what it was required to do and it was clear that artelia's role did not include contributing to any matter

00:51:06 not include contributing to any matter concerning design or choice of materials my understanding was that artelia was performing purely in a contract administrator capacity sometimes an ea will be contracted to monitor design progress

00:51:18 monitor design progress however on this project i was informed by simon cash that artelia did not have that role artelia had offered to be the tma's client

00:51:26 client design advisor but the tmo had declined this offer now we've already touched on some of these issues i appreciate

00:51:41 can we just look at the artelia contract against the background of this now if we go art

00:51:50 go art 405742

00:51:52 405742 page 47.

00:51:59 this is um just so you know what they're looking at these are the services for employers agent i think it actually begins on page 45 just let me show you that so you can see

00:52:10 just let me show you that so you can see how this

00:52:12 how this fits together so this is the part of artelia's rics standard form contract that's dealing with the employer's agent services and if we go back to page 47

00:52:24 and if we go back to page 47 at tick point um tick box 1.1.4 on the left hand column there we can see it says monitor the performance of the professional team and the contractor report to the client

00:52:38 and the contractor report to the client to see that there yes now can you help us um with whether in practice that would mean that there was any

00:52:45 any monitoring of the progress of designers to make sure they complete tasks as part of this ea role

00:52:57 um is designers forming part of the professional team yes yes yes yes so is it right that an employer's agent would be expected to

00:53:08 would be expected to be aware of progress in the design work yes on the heart of the professional team yes yeah and

00:53:19 yes yeah and once ryden come on board and we've got the designer build contract in place they then have studio e

00:53:27 e novated over to them what in practice would that role involve at that stage if you're monitoring the performance the professional team and the contractor

00:53:38 professional team and the contractor are you still monitoring the design and build contractor in terms of progress of its design no

00:53:51 i think there will be a

00:53:54 bearing in mind it's not the function i performed at that stage um but there would be um i'd expect to see a program from the contractor setting out what he

00:54:06 contractor setting out what he intends to provide and by when in essence so that it can be reviewed by those in the compliance review

00:54:13 review function i see so when you say in your statement that artelia was not obliged to monitor the design progress can you help us with what you

00:54:24 progress can you help us with what you meant by that and why artela wouldn't monitor the design progress

00:54:34 [Applause] well the there's the let's think of it as inputs and outputs the the contractor is

00:54:45 the the contractor is providing a design input through his team they are designing and from that task

00:54:55 you are presented with an output which is a proposal as a full consideration by the professional team

00:55:01 team yeah so i wouldn't expect us to be close to the contractors management of the detailed design process yeah be interested in understanding when are

00:55:13 be interested in understanding when are you going to present the team something to review for our comment and support

00:55:23 now you go on in your statement if we can go back to that um your first statement art406663 on page three and this time paragraph 11

00:55:35 on page three and this time paragraph 11 you say i was therefore mindful during the project of the limits on artelia's ea role and that artelia was not

00:55:41 was not to be involved in design issues there were occasions when the tmo tried to involve artelia in design issues when it was necessary for artelia to push back and remind the tmo that

00:55:53 to push back and remind the tmo that this was not our role i refer to some examples of this in paragraph 64 to 76 below and then you give us a number of examples and i'm not going to ask you about all of them just a few key points if i may

00:56:06 just a few key points if i may um

00:56:10 design team meetings if if we look at your

00:56:13 your stay with this first statement and now look at page 19 paragraph 65.

00:56:23 you say there on the 20th of march 2015 shortly after i've become involved in the project i quickly started to encounter the tmo looking to involve artelia in design issues that were outside artelia's appointment

00:56:34 were outside artelia's appointment this is reflected in an email i sent to twitch in lim on the 20th of march 2015 when i queried the appropriateness of artelia attending a meeting

00:56:43 a meeting that appeared to be relevant to design and in the email of the same date which i refer to in paragraph 16 of my statement

00:56:52 statement now let's go to that email that you're referring to there it's zero a six seven zero

00:57:13 zero a six seven zero this is an email from you to tweet in lim 20th of march 2015 subject urgent grenfell residence meeting of 17th of march

00:57:24 meeting of 17th of march and in that second paragraph down you say

00:57:27 say to her claire has called me and i have said that it's unlikely highly unlikely any of us can make a meeting on monday noting that even if we could i'm not sure we should be attending

00:57:38 sure we should be attending bracket scope creep question mark she has asked me to comment on the below which i'm reading now but i thought i would ask about the second bullet

00:57:50 now is it right that you were saying you didn't think it was appropriate for artelia to be attending meetings with the design team is that what you were getting out here

00:58:01 what you were getting out here i can't remember the context can we look at the second bullet that might help me yes let's go down the page

00:58:18 don't know whether is there a second page to this email string yes there we can see the second bullet

00:58:27 so um this is about the hiu the heat interface

00:58:31 interface unit location and she's asked you and matt smith of max fordham

00:58:40 fordham do you have any queries over the text i have asked artelia to understand any cost implications of relocating the hiu from the kitchen boxing in etc so that was her second bullet point

00:58:56 can you help us therefore on why you were

00:58:59 were concerned about artelia attending the meeting that was being suggested and why you refer to scope creep

00:59:08 well the scope creep reference would have been in relation to are we being asked to get involved in a conversation that is about design

00:59:19 looking at that second email

00:59:22 that's fundamentally talking about cost implications of relocating so this probably isn't the best example i see where i

00:59:34 i see where i should we say perhaps kicked back on a dialogue around design yeah um i do i do know the hiu change was a significant one in which um

00:59:47 change was a significant one in which um i was party to the discussions and conclusions and where that led yeah perhaps i can ask you more generally and did you ever attend any design team meetings on the project no and would you thought it was part of

00:59:59 no and would you thought it was part of your role to attend design team meetings no and why not just help us with why those design team meetings wouldn't be relevant to you as employers

01:00:10 wouldn't be relevant to you as employers agent

01:00:11 agent well they wouldn't be relevant to me as an employer as i used on this project because we were specifically excluded not excluded it was not part of our brief

01:00:20 brief to be involved in design i understand that but

01:00:24 that but didn't you need an awareness of the progress of design on the job in terms of performing your employer's agent functions well you would have during the design stage but here we were

01:00:37 during the design stage but here we were not at the design stage we were at the construction stage in the design discussions that were arising were associated with the changes yeah

01:00:49 so in terms of monitoring their performance of the professional team um is what you're saying that you can monitor the performance of the design without having to ascend

01:01:00 without having to ascend design team meetings

01:01:04 i think we're mixing two or three things up there we have to remember at this stage of the project the design was being led by the contractor yeah so it wouldn't be typical for an ea to attend a contractors design team

01:01:16 to attend a contractors design team meeting

01:01:17 meeting in my view um it's coming back down to the outputs from the contractors design process

01:01:24 process that the professional team are either appointed or not appointed to review i think i understand let's look at another example that you

01:01:35 let's look at another example that you refer to in your statement this is to do with

01:01:37 with lifts again now we can see from the documents that in september 2015 a difficulty arose with the lifts and in particular the tmo was concerned about the effect of fire alarms

01:01:50 the effect of fire alarms apparently sending lifts to the ground floor

01:01:53 floor and if we can go to art 406656 and look at the top of page two

01:02:05 this is an email from claire williams to you and andrew malcolm subject grenfell lyft and she says chaps can you please give me a ring with your views on this and where we go with it

01:02:16 where we go with it there seems to be a couple of anomalies

01:02:21 and if we look below that she's bordered an email from simon lawrence

01:02:31 and we can see in that first paragraph that she's obviously raised a concern about

01:02:38 about systems within grenfell that might send the lifts to ground in case of fire and then he's talking about there certainly aren't any audible alarms apart from smoke detectors so

01:02:50 apart from smoke detectors so that's some of the context for this and then what happens is after she's asked for your views on this we scroll up to the top of page one you then forward this to simon cash on the

01:03:01 then forward this to simon cash on the same day

01:03:02 same day as her email and you say to simon cash this is the 11th of september

01:03:10 um you say i'll call you late i'll call you after lunch to discuss one the challenges go on re lack of design coordination and foresight two claire is emailing us and seeking to

01:03:21 two claire is emailing us and seeking to draw us in on conversations about one exclamation mark i remain concerned about the time we are spending along with the very fact these things are coming up at this stage in the project

01:03:33 coming up at this stage in the project do you see that there yes

01:03:37 and then we can see that on the same day you also send an email to matt smith you can go to that art 406637

01:03:54 and you say to matt smith matt does the below mata fall within the scope of your services please if not do you know with whom it does so you're trying to find out if it's something max fordham can help with

01:04:06 something max fordham can help with and then you say in the last paragraph there i'd be grateful for your earliest responses artelia is not best placed to provide advice to tmo in this regard design coordination scoping and resolution do not form part of our brief

01:04:18 resolution do not form part of our brief [Applause]

01:04:22 and then i just want to follow this all through and then i'm going to ask you some questions mr smith of max fordham replies we can see that if we go to art 404709

01:04:38 his reply to you is dated the 14th of september 2015. he says as mentioned previously the lift package does not form part of our scope xover may be best placed to advise on

01:04:50 xover may be best placed to advise on any fire requirements and then i want to look at what you say about this in your first witness statement

01:05:00 statement so if we go um back to that it's a page 22 of your first statement paragraph 71

01:05:10 we can see you say this you say again i was emphasizing that issues of this nature were not artelia's responsibility but at the same time trying to assist the tmo by directing the point to the correct parties

01:05:21 correct parties i also re-emphasize the fact that artelia's scope did not involve design to claire williams who appeared to understand this on a telephone call which i reported among other things to simon cash

01:05:33 other things to simon cash in an email on the 14th of september 2015.

01:05:37 2015. now bearing in mind all of that we know this was september 2015 so some way into the project would you say that there was still a substantial problem of the tmo not

01:05:48 substantial problem of the tmo not understanding the scope of artelia's role

01:06:03 a substantial misunderstanding of artelia's role was that your question yeah no i don't think it was a substantial misunderstanding of their role

01:06:15 misunderstanding of their role i think that there was a lot of dialogue around changes and gaps appeared that

01:06:27 and gaps appeared that perhaps surprised claire as much as me so i'm just seeking here to point her in the right direction to get the outcome that she needed

01:06:39 get the outcome that she needed i see without being drawn in um to something i felt was outside of our scope

01:06:47 i see when you say there in that paragraph of your witness statement that claire williams appeared to understand this

01:06:54 this that's right did you think in reality that the tmo was was trying it on from time to time to get you involved in these design issues even though they knew

01:07:05 issues even though they knew that wasn't part of your scope is that what was going on when you when you when you put it like that

01:07:12 that you you make it sound as though they were doing it deliberately whether

01:07:19 i think there was perhaps just sometimes um a knee-jerk reaction albeit it was it was consistent to to to ask to ask us for our help um

01:07:34 but i think claire you know claire demonstrated eventually with some of the other replies that she understands she understands yeah that we can't help no it wasn't a kickback to it to me

01:07:45 kickback to it to me so i mean you draw attention there's a number of examples you give of this in your statement and you spend quite a lot of time in your witness statement explaining that there are a number of issues where you felt artelia was being inappropriately

01:07:56 felt artelia was being inappropriately asked about design issues and had to keep pushing back are you merely telling us that about that in your statement because you're seeking to demonstrate that artillery was always very clear about the scope of its role

01:08:08 very clear about the scope of its role or are you telling us about it because you felt that it was a significant problem on this project

01:08:23 um i'm setting out the facts of the matter um we were regularly asked about design matters

01:08:34 matters um i never thought about it in any other way

01:08:39 way um other than i was clear where the responsibility for the design function sat i think claire knew that too

01:08:47 too that was evident um it just surprised me that it kept happening

01:08:55 happening the occasion i think i probably got quite frustrated with it i did i didn't read into that in any other way then our client keeps asking us to get involved in design and you know

01:09:05 know at some stage i think i'd suggest it to simon that he may wish to remind and escalate the issue and remind them this is just not part of our scope it shouldn't be

01:09:16 part of our scope it shouldn't be happening yeah can we look at another um email chain on this

01:09:21 this art 406577 this is an another exhibit to your statement

01:09:29 statement paragraph 71

01:09:33 and it's a log that you sent to simon cash

01:09:36 cash yes referring to um telephone conversations you've had with claire williams um and if we go and just look at the

01:09:48 um and if we go and just look at the entry you've got there on the 11th of september

01:09:51 september 15. um

01:09:55 15. um at the very bottom of that table it says emails re-lift queries program meeting cdm 2015. you list various things out there and then in the second line you say

01:10:07 and then in the second line you say catch up call from claire relift fire issue

01:10:10 issue mentioned our scope not being designed and apologized if i appeared terse in some emails she understood and said this was fine thanked me for

01:10:22 said this was fine thanked me for addressing lift query emails to max ford and re-lift queries so

01:10:26 so um you say there that you apologize if you appeared terse um does that reflect that the frustration that you've just told us about that perhaps you did get a little

01:10:37 about that perhaps you did get a little bit frustrated with the number of times you were being asked to help out on design issues yes

01:10:46 now we look um from something from 2016 so later in the contract we go art 406672

01:10:58 art 406672 this is an email you wrote to simon cash on the 9th of may 2016.

01:11:08 in in the first sentence there you say o ms are unacceptable to the clerk of works now we're going to come back to look at the whole question of the health and safety file in the o m manual later and and then you say this

01:11:22 later and and then you say this this is just a flag this is becoming a fast despite all our efforts to ensure smooth landing i have to say i don't think i've ever worked with a contractor operating with this level of nonchalance we are all getting sucked into doing far

01:11:35 we are all getting sucked into doing far more

01:11:35 more than we ought to at this stage of the project i'm wondering if you need to write to tmo to express our concern and what we are endeavoring to do about it additional site visits additional

01:11:46 it additional site visits additional meetings

01:11:47 meetings endless emails on design related issues that don't concern us as claire is the design lead etcetera challenging the contractor etc now at this stage i'm going to come back

01:11:58 now at this stage i'm going to come back to ask you about ryden and the comment you made about nonchalant so can we just park that bit for a moment but the comment you've made there about we're all getting sucked into doing far more than we ought to at this stage in

01:12:09 more than we ought to at this stage in the project wonder whether we should write to tmo does that indicate to us that you still had some concerns about this even much later in the project in may

01:12:21 even much later in the project in may 2016.

01:12:25 yes i think the the i mean you've you fast-forwarded quite some time there and

01:12:32 and the issues at this stage more more about the performance of the contractor um yeah mostly in that sense but

01:12:43 um yeah mostly in that sense but yes he'll answer your question did you ever get the impression that miss williams was foundering in terms of design issues and was therefore reaching out to you

01:12:54 was therefore reaching out to you for additional support

01:12:58 um

01:13:02 did you say found what was it poundering floundering

01:13:08 struggling did you ever get the impression she was struggling to deal with the design issues that were cropping up on the project and needed to seek to reach out to you for help on it

01:13:20 for help on it yes i can see that yes possibly yeah [Applause] now in your first witness statement as i say you've discussed a number of other

01:13:32 say you've discussed a number of other similar incidents where the tmo looked to artelia to provide design advice despite the fact it was outside your scope of works and you've dealt with those in some

01:13:43 and you've dealt with those in some detail we've got examples of of crown access tiling in the boxing club letterboxes at lower levels sleeving through rises the building management system and its connection

01:13:55 management system and its connection with the gas supply and and i'm not going to take you to any of the detail of those but i want to just ask you in general was the volume of design queries you were seeing usual for a

01:14:08 queries you were seeing usual for a project of this size and at this stage in the construction i process i didn't think so no was the range of design queries or usual

01:14:19 was the range of design queries or usual for a project of this size and at this stage

01:14:22 stage no i didn't think so was it unusual to have the sorts of queries that you saw at this stage on the project

01:14:33 no just sorry just to clarify we're talking about this stage in relation to september 16 yes i mean the the those other examples span from august 2015 through to

01:14:47 span from august 2015 through to january february 2016. yes um so you've given examples across that time period was it unusual to have those sorts of queries at this stage of the project

01:15:03 yes it was for a design and build project yes

01:15:08 now you've touched on the the offer of the client design advisor role and you're obviously aware were you aware at the time of your involvement in grenfell that that

01:15:20 involvement in grenfell that that offer had been rejected by artelia yes simon

01:15:23 simon sorry rejected by the tmo yes simon cash had made that um very clear at the beginning because in coming on board as we said i think at the beginning of this session you know i looked at this

01:15:35 this session you know i looked at this information and was surprised to see that that function didn't at that moment appear to be hadn't been taken up and then learned that the tmo were providing it yes i think you say there

01:15:47 providing it yes i think you say there you looked at that and you were surprised to see that the function hadn't at that moment been taken up um was that surprise something you kind of carried forward through the project that

01:15:59 carried forward through the project that you were

01:15:59 you were surprised that they hadn't thought about having a client design advisor sorry not thought about it but that they'd not accepted that offer no i mean i um so i thought

01:16:11 no i mean i um so i thought we covered this earlier so just for clarity i you know i in coming on board i'd learned that the offer had been made it made sense to make the offer it had been made clear to me that

01:16:22 me that the tmo hadn't taken up the offer and it been made very clear to me that tmo will be providing the function of that service themselves so from my perspective that was okay

01:16:34 so from my perspective that was okay that was understood you've given us all these examples of the types of queries design queries that the tmo were raising with you artelia

01:16:44 artelia and were those queries things that a client design advisor might have been able to assist them with

01:16:54 um in so yes yeah yes did the tmos refusal to appoint a client design advisor make your role as employers agent more difficult

01:17:14 i don't believe so did you ever have a conversation with the tmo that they might appoint a client design advisor to assist them even at a later stage in the project

01:17:26 even at a later stage in the project did sorry could you repeat did you ever have a conversation with the tmo about appointing a client design advisor later in the project no

01:17:42 did you ever have concerns that um certain safety issues had not been considered properly by the tmo when considering the designs

01:17:55 by the tmo when considering the designs no you didn't ever have a concern that they weren't scrutinizing the designs carefully from a safety perspective

01:18:05 no i wasn't i wasn't i wasn't aware of

01:18:10 what their scrutiny constituted mr chairman i think that would be a very good moment for our brain dude yes moving on to talk about cdm next oh well that probably is a good point

01:18:21 oh well that probably is a good point then uh mr reed we have a break during the course of the afternoon and it's convenient to take it now so we're going to stop until 20 past three please i'm going to ask you to go with

01:18:33 please i'm going to ask you to go with the usher in a moment but first time has asked you please to make sure you don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it while you're out of the room okay all right understood thank you very much we'd like to give

01:18:44 thank you very much we'd like to give the asha please thank you

01:18:56 right 24 3.

01:34:23 yes would you ask mr reed to come back in please thank you

01:34:39 all right mr reed ready to carry on sure good thank you yes yes thank you yeah just before we move on to the topic of the cdn regulations i just want to go back and ask you a couple more questions about um

01:34:52 ask you a couple more questions about um something we looked at earlier about that the lift if we if i can bring up again

01:34:56 again art four zeros four seven zero nine

01:35:02 so if you recall i was asking you some questions about an issue that had been raised by the tmo about the effect of fire alarms uh apparently sending lifts to the ground floor

01:35:14 ground floor and we saw that one of the things you did was check with max fordham whether it's part of their scope of works and here we've got matt smith saying to you on the 14th of september

01:35:25 you on the 14th of september as mentioned previously the lift package does not form part of our scope xover may be best placed to advise on any fire requirements can you recall did you contact x over

01:35:37 can you recall did you contact x over and refer that matter to them no i i don't remember but i don't believe i would have done that no and why don't you believe you would have

01:35:48 and why don't you believe you would have done that given x over being flagged here about max fordham as someone who might be best placed to advise on that i didn't i didn't recognise

01:35:59 on that i didn't i didn't recognise um the team i'm engaging with is max fordham

01:36:03 fordham so reference to another party that i recall we're advising the contractor um i

01:36:15 um i i don't think i did anything with this and i wouldn't have done anything with this yeah

01:36:19 this yeah so does that go back to your evidence that at the time you wouldn't have seen x over as part of the tmo team

01:36:31 correct yep

01:36:35 so the cdm regulations now we know that just as you joined this project the cdm regulations changed didn't they so prior to april 2015 the cdn

01:36:46 so prior to april 2015 the cdn regulations 2007 were in effect we know that there was then a transitional period between april 2015 and october 2015 and then from the 6th of october 2015

01:36:57 and then from the 6th of october 2015 the new regime was in place that's right isn't it that's correct now i just want to pick up um this question about who was going to be

01:37:09 this question about who was going to be the principal designer i want to pick it up in september 2015 with some emails at that point if we can go to art four zeros nine 9332

01:37:21 if we can go to art four zeros nine 9332 this is an email chain from between the 10th and the 15th of september 2015. and i want to take you through a number of exchanges in it if we can start at the bottom of page

01:37:33 if we can start at the bottom of page five

01:37:35 five and look at that email this is an email from

01:37:40 from colin james to you of the 11th of september 2015. can you just remind us who colin james was on the project

01:37:53 i think colin jones was the cdnc yeah at that point yeah and he says to you the client needs to appoint a principal designer prior to the 6th of october 2015.

01:38:04 prior to the 6th of october 2015. i'm not sure what the scope of our involvement is on this project however if we have control over the designers we can be appointed as a principal designer please see attached appointment template kind regards colin

01:38:17 kind regards colin and then if we go back to page five at the top of page five simon cash then sends an email to you

01:38:29 on the 13th of september 2015 and he says neil i thought that this question had already been raised with claire and we had advised her that artelia are not in a position to

01:38:41 that artelia are not in a position to take on the principal designer role and that the tmo should approach ryden's to take it on as they are in control of the design process now and and then he signs off simon

01:38:53 and and then he signs off simon and if we can go to the bottom of page four to see your response to that

01:39:01 you email simon cash back and you say not formally to my knowledge i think paul colin should write to set out the situation and recommend

01:39:13 out the situation and recommend action although should letter come from you

01:39:16 you question mark

01:39:20 um and then can we see another email that you send to simon cash on the 15th of september this is at the bottom of page

01:39:38 one

01:39:42 so yes it's that email um yes at 702 on the 15th of september um you say i can't find that email on my

01:39:54 um you say i can't find that email on my phone but to my knowledge our client has not been advised about options in any formal sense do you see that there andrew and i have an action for claire to advise how she wishes to address the

01:40:06 to advise how she wishes to address the need for a principal designer appointment but i had hoped we could spell out the options for claire from our team in order to assist her i will have to refer claire to paul direct when this issue is raised today

01:40:19 direct when this issue is raised today and then if we look to the top of the chain at page one simon cash tells you in the second email from the top simple fact is that we cannot act as a principal designer

01:40:30 principal designer so choices are to ask ryden to take on the role as they are responsible for design

01:40:35 design but they are not obliged to take it on if not tma will have to engage someone direct

01:40:42 direct and then you say in your response to that okay thanks psy that is my understanding but i didn't know if paul had found a way or desire for artelia to provide it given

01:40:53 for artelia to provide it given discussions at wisley and then you sign off now

01:41:00 with those emails in mind do you agree that at this point in september 2015 the client the tmo had not been given formal advice about the options in terms

01:41:12 formal advice about the options in terms of principal designer under the cdm 2015

01:41:19 okay this this conversation started in july

01:41:24 july agreed yeah and mr cash was shown some emails

01:41:27 emails back in july which right did you see that part of his evidence yes yeah so yeah um but i mean i i recall the conversation began in july

01:41:39 i recall the conversation began in july yeah um because it came up in meetings and i was led to believe um through some of the emails and other

01:41:50 um through some of the emails and other evidence that um claire was aware of that before before the formal acknowledgement if you like that did follow later

01:42:03 as i understood that claire was going to try and appoint another party from one of the tmo frameworks um which memory is recorded in uh

01:42:17 um which memory is recorded in uh in a meeting in either early september or late august yeah i see but but i think you're telling simon cash in this chain that we've just seen that the tmo

01:42:28 we've just seen that the tmo haven't formally had advice about the principal designer role do you agree with that

01:42:36 yes and is it right that as at the 15th of september 2015 when you send this email that we're looking at here that you yourself were still not clear

01:42:47 that you yourself were still not clear whether artelia could act as principal designer for this project uh correct

01:43:01 and is it right that as at this date the 15th of september 2015 artelia had not made it clear to the tmo that they were not prepared to act as principal designer

01:43:13 to act as principal designer sorry could you repeat that yeah as at the 15th of september 2015 is it right that artelia had not made it clear to the tmo that they were not prepared to act as principal designer i

01:43:24 prepared to act as principal designer i i thought they had okay

01:43:29 now can we go to art 406731 these are the minutes of progress meeting 15 on the 15th of september 2015.

01:43:40 and is it right that um you took these meeting minutes it says from neil reed there yes

01:43:52 it says from neil reed there yes and we can see your present at the meeting

01:43:55 meeting at the bottom of that table there one one line up if we go on to page seven at the top of the page

01:44:01 the page point seven point three we can see there's a

01:44:06 there's a a minute there cdm 2015 cw claire williams to appoint a principal designer from the tmo's new consultancy framework do you see that there that's right so is it right that as at the date of

01:44:18 so is it right that as at the date of this meeting you were clear that the tmo knew it had to appoint someone other than artelia to be the principal designer yes and had that been made

01:44:29 yes and had that been made clear to the tmo at this meeting i i don't i don't recall i don't recall um the dialogue in the meeting i i remember there was a discussion

01:44:41 remember there was a discussion um and the framework um was not this framework arrangement was an option so this was this you know the action coming away from that meeting is

01:44:53 coming away from that meeting is that's what the tmo were going to do yeah so

01:44:56 yeah so it was clearly in consideration before the meeting yeah this wasn't discussed at the meeting and a decision made in the meeting this was just a record of a decision they made following exhausting from memory the other options that may have been

01:45:07 other options that may have been available to them i think

01:45:11 now at this point the tmo would have around three weeks to a point of principal designer wouldn't they prior to the the new regime coming into

01:45:22 prior to the the new regime coming into force on the 6th of october 2015. yes and is it right did you were you aware that both ryden and studio e were asked to be principal

01:45:33 and studio e were asked to be principal designer but they both refused yes do you know why they refused

01:45:39 no and is it also right that um at one time some consideration was being given this is in later in september to the idea that the clerk of works organization jrp

01:45:53 the clerk of works organization jrp might be the principal designer were you aware of that yeah i i was um i think and it was an email from me somewhere that acknowledges it

01:46:04 somewhere that acknowledges it yeah because i think it was uh it was raised as an option through some discussion i was privy to yeah let's look at that art four zeros three

01:46:13 three sorry four zeros nine three three six this is an internal email within artelia on the 23rd of september 2015. and you say

01:46:24 of september 2015. and you say there to paul burrell pop burroughs and simon cash claire will be appointing the clerk of works organization jrp who tell me all their cdmcs are simply becoming

01:46:36 all their cdmcs are simply becoming principal designers and they see no issue with this transition i understand other organizations are exercising the same approach so we can see that you were aware of that

01:46:48 we can see that you were aware of that yes do you know why the tmo did not eventually appoint jrp to be the principal designer no

01:46:59 and we can see from the emails that the tmo subsequently decides to perform the role of principal designer itself if we can look at a rt404824

01:47:13 if we can look at a rt404824 this is an email chain between you and claire williams on the 1st and 2nd of october 2015 and if we could go down to page two

01:47:24 and pick this up there this is claire williams to you first of october 2015 and there's a number of points raised she wants to catch up with you and she's

01:47:36 she wants to catch up with you and she's got some issues and then under 0.5 at the bottom is relevant to this topic it says cdm regulations change as long as the project team agree the design is fundamentally complete

01:47:48 fundamentally complete then we believe the provisions within the legislation allow tmo to request the principal contractor to compile the health and safety file and issue direct without the formal appointment of a

01:47:59 without the formal appointment of a principal designer can we get this put into the meeting next week and check the team agree the design is fundamentally complete and get this minuted

01:48:11 so we can see what she's saying there and then i want to show you your response on page one to this so you respond on the 2nd of october

01:48:21 october and under cdm you say i think this needs to be your call claire we think you mean is the design sufficiently complete read the health and safety file it does

01:48:33 read the health and safety file it does leave the question as to who then checks the file and confirms it is compliant would you like artelia to provide a due diligence role in this regard to ensure the file complies with the employer's requirements and the cdm

01:48:44 the employer's requirements and the cdm regulations as i think we may be able to provide a cdm advisor type role as opposed to the principal designer role so we can see that's what you say there can you help us as to

01:48:58 say there can you help us as to where claire williams had referred to the design being fundamentally complete um can you help us as to what she meant by that

01:49:09 um i don't know i didn't really understand what she meant by that

01:49:18 and you say there very clearly that it needs to be her call regarding whether the design is sufficiently complete to your knowledge what if anything did the tmo do to

01:49:29 the tmo do to check they understood the duties they would be taking on

01:49:35 uh i have no idea so you can't help us as to

01:49:38 as to what if anything the tmo did to satisfy itself that those duties would be within the capacity of the tma to perform no

01:49:50 i want to pick it up now at a progress meeting from november 2015. if we can go to the minutes of that meeting art

01:50:08 405184 if we look here this is a progress meeting 17th of november 2015 we can see your present is it right you chaired this

01:50:21 present is it right you chaired this meeting

01:50:21 meeting would you chair these yes i would normally chair the previous meetings and then andrew would take the four more minutes yeah and this cdm

01:50:28 cdm issue is picked up on page two if we go to item 2.8 at the bottom of that page

01:50:39 at the bottom of that page and it says there item 3.2 cdn regulations 2015 am noted the pm n i think that's post meeting note is that right that's right on previous minutes copied here for

01:50:50 on previous minutes copied here for completeness so what's happened here is a minute from the october progress meeting has been copied over and that note reads as follows pmn under the 2015

01:51:03 reads as follows pmn under the 2015 regulations if the principal designer appointment finishes before the end of the works then the principal contractor takes on the principal designer role this means the principal contractor puts

01:51:15 this means the principal contractor puts together

01:51:16 together the health and safety file for the client for discussion at the next progress meeting do you see that there yes

01:51:24 yes and then you can see these minutes continue it was agreed that ryden are not the principal designer under the cdm regulations 2015 the tmo as the client are to undertake this role

01:51:39 as the client are to undertake this role and then we can see over the page it says it was further agreed that ryden would be responsible for collating and presenting the health and safety file information in accordance with the employer's

01:51:50 in accordance with the employer's requirements and the is that the pre-contract information yes and present it to the tmo as principal designer so we can see what's said there about

01:52:02 so we can see what's said there about who's going to take responsibility for what what the tmo are going to do what ryden's going to do

01:52:11 and do you remember anything further about what was said about the tmo taking on the role of principal designer at this meeting no can you remember anything further

01:52:23 no can you remember anything further that was said about the collation of the health and safety file we can see it was agreed that ryden would be responsible for collating and presenting that information can you recall any further discussions

01:52:34 can you recall any further discussions about that at this stage not not further discussion no save i know ryden went on to

01:52:45 i know ryden went on to employ another party to help compile the building menu the building manual which encompassed the health and safety farm as i understood it i see so how is it going to work as you

01:52:57 i see so how is it going to work as you understood it at this meeting the tmo has taken on the principal designer role but is it right that what was agreed was in practice ryden would be responsible for collating

01:53:08 ryden would be responsible for collating and presenting the health and safety file

01:53:10 file information under the cdm regs correct i see

01:53:17 now um

01:53:21 i think it's right and and we saw it from your email to claire williams a little bit earlier when we were looking at that email chain from the beginning of october that artelia did offer um

01:53:34 artelia did offer um a role as advisor to the tmo is that right in their in their role as principal designer artelia said it could provide some advice to the tmo to assist it in

01:53:45 advice to the tmo to assist it in discharging that role is that right that's what i understood yes yeah

01:53:50 and there are some emails about that um did do you know whether the tmo ever took up that offer to get advice from artelia

01:54:02 artelia well i don't think a formal offer was made and no they didn't take up an offer no no so we can see it's floated in a number of emails that you could provide that type of support if they wanted it that's right and is it

01:54:13 they wanted it that's right and is it right that they never got back to you saying yes please we'd like that support that's correct yeah

01:54:20 now on the health and safety file were you aware um when you were performing your role as employers agent that there was no health and safety file for the original building

01:54:33 safety file for the original building and so

01:54:34 and so no health and safety file had been passed on onto this project from any previous projects were you aware of that um

01:54:44 i think i was aware of it it doesn't surprise me it's a very old building but it was an old building that had a number of

01:54:53 number of um key pieces of building work going on within it so there'd been a flat door replacement project had been a lift replacement project

01:55:04 project were you aware that there'd been those previous building projects in relation to this building no no so i think you're saying it didn't surprise you that there was no health and safety file

01:55:16 that there was no health and safety file correct

01:55:17 correct was that common at the time that you would get a building like grenfell with no

01:55:21 no existing health and safety file

01:55:25 um i mean the rex came into play in the 90s

01:55:29 90s so health and safety files as a term and as an output didn't exist really before then in any formal sense so on the basis it was a very old building that doesn't surprise me okay

01:55:41 building that doesn't surprise me okay can we now uh look at an email art 4062 this is an email chain in march and april 2015. so this is specifically about the

01:55:52 so this is specifically about the subject of the health and safety file and i want to start by looking at page 2 in the middle of the page we can see an email from keith bushel on the 23rd of march 2015 there

01:56:07 on the 23rd of march 2015 there about the grenfell health and safety file

01:56:11 file and that email is sent to various uh people on the project including individuals from ryden max fordham curtains and and studio e and you'll see seed into that

01:56:25 can you see that yes

01:56:31 and is it your understanding that around this time

01:56:35 this time keith bushel was collecting information to help compile the health and safety file

01:56:44 um it would certainly appear that way from the email yes yeah

01:56:50 is that what you would expect him as a as the cdm coordinator to have been doing

01:56:56 doing um

01:57:00 yes i mean in in practice much of the information that's required for the file does tend to come towards the latter part of the project so um

01:57:13 so um we're in march here so i think he's setting out here what he's going to be requiring isn't he yeah i i understand that i understand that another witnesses have

01:57:25 i understand that another witnesses have said it that in practice it's often left to the end of the project but in reality wouldn't it have been the position that some information could have been gathered earlier

01:57:36 gathered earlier so the specifications for the products that are used certificates like fire testing certificates for the products being used could have been gathered

01:57:47 could have been gathered even as built drawings i mean surely if the construction work is well progressed those ought to be available isn't it good practice to start compiling the health and safety file as

01:57:58 compiling the health and safety file as you go

01:58:07 you go i'm not sure what that purpose that would serve fundamentally because i mean as built drawings were in march 15 here

01:58:15 15 here the project wasn't finished until summer of 16. so

01:58:19 of 16. so you wouldn't be seeing it as built drawing until the clothing had been finished

01:58:23 finished um specifications they're embodied in the contract documents

01:58:30 this is why yes the process can start but the reality is the information that's relevant to the file in my view doesn't become available until the latter part of the project and that

01:58:41 the latter part of the project and that well can i suggest you that one purpose that might serve would for the cdm coordinator to be checking that what's in those specifications is indeed what's been put on the building

01:58:53 been put on the building because we know in this project and this is scrolling forward that the health and safety file has been examined and there are either emissions in it or inaccuracies in it in terms of what's there so isn't one purpose to

01:59:05 what's there so isn't one purpose to start gathering the information and checking it to check that it is consistent with what's actually on the

01:59:14 building cdmc in my view wouldn't be checking the accuracy of the aspirin drawing and that it reflects what's on the building that would be the builder's responsibility to provide the

01:59:26 responsibility to provide the information to for the file i see so a cdm coordinator wouldn't exercise any independent judgment about for example if if he's been given specification information about products

01:59:39 specification information about products or testing information about products he wouldn't

01:59:42 wouldn't just check that that is in fact what's been installed he just assumed that what he's provided with was what's on the building is that correct he's expecting the information to come through from the various disciplines that will be responsible for checking those things

01:59:53 checking those things i see mystery can you help me i still find it difficult to understand why you can't start building this file at a much earlier stage in the construction program

02:00:04 construction program for example we know that in this case changes were made to the dry riser inlet now and there must have been drawings or some sort of uh documentation uh

02:00:15 some sort of uh documentation uh relating to that which would reach a final stage when the work was finished yes and that would probably be a long time before the last piece of paneling on the cladding

02:00:27 last piece of paneling on the cladding was put in place why can't you build the file as you go along

02:00:32 along i'm not saying you you can't build the file as you go along you can build the file if you go along but i mean using the very example you refer to works in the risers are happening right up until the last few

02:00:44 happening right up until the last few weeks of the project well they may be but they may not be may they well they were on this project for sure um so the

02:00:50 um so the the commissioning data and the information relative to what you're using

02:00:54 using and may well be available sooner and it would be for it would be for the cdnc to compile the file

02:01:01 file i mean i would be interested in ensuring that um you know the the file is provided at a pertinent point in the project which is pc i mean i asked the question because i

02:01:12 pc i mean i asked the question because i got the distinct impression from other witnesses that the practice is that no one really does anything about compiling this file until the till everything is done and the impression i got perhaps wrongly

02:01:26 and the impression i got perhaps wrongly from reading the regulations was that they may contemplate that things will be compiled as you go along but

02:01:34 but is that not is that not your experience okay so i i sit here in a you know as a pm as a discipline i'm not a cdm expert i'm not overtly familiar with all

02:01:46 expert i'm not overtly familiar with all of the regulations but i am i'm familiar with the principles and and the fundamental output from the process so i don't i don't disagree with the sentiment and it's common practice

02:01:58 sentiment and it's common practice um that the file is is collated um along with the o m's as as part of a building manual as it's often referred to in individuals on this project towards the latter end of the

02:02:11 project towards the latter end of the project

02:02:12 project when all the information and when the project is finished and all the information can be provided and made available that's right does that help yes it does okay thank you very much just picking up a little bit on that

02:02:23 just picking up a little bit on that isn't there a danger if you leave it right to the end that the compiling of that file becomes chaotic

02:02:30 chaotic um i don't think so

02:02:34 on this project are you saying that because of the nature of the project and lots of strands not coming together to the end are you saying that in practice you think it would have been difficult to start compiling the health and safety

02:02:45 to start compiling the health and safety file any earlier than at the end of the project

02:02:54 sorry could you repeat that question yeah on this project are you saying that because of the nature of the project with lots of strands not coming together until the end are you saying in practice it would have been difficult to start

02:03:05 it would have been difficult to start compiling that file any earlier i think i think that was the case for this project but it is the case for most projects in which i've been involved anyway

02:03:16 which i've been involved anyway whether there is significant change or not i see

02:03:19 not i see so are you saying that even on a well-run well-organized project you think that in reality the health and safety file perhaps doesn't need to be put together till the

02:03:31 doesn't need to be put together till the end

02:03:33 i'm not saying need i'm saying in practice what happens is that's when it happens

02:03:38 happens yeah when you say the end i mean the the end

02:03:41 end can be you know what what's the end it can be two weeks it can be six months yeah i think i recall from um

02:03:52 yeah i think i recall from um reviewing the preliminaries for part of the contract documents that the file is requested two weeks before practical completion now i read that as um that's often a

02:04:03 now i read that as um that's often a common benchmark for the provision of of the file but to get to a point where you have the file available you you certainly need to to start thinking about it and compiling it

02:04:14 thinking about it and compiling it before then and i guess this coming back full circle to keith's email this is the process by which i think he's kick-starting and reminding people what he needs

02:04:22 he needs yeah that's common practice exactly and bringing it back to this email would you have expected that some information would have been provided in response to this request that he's making here

02:04:38 making here um possibly not necessarily because he's setting out here and we will need the information from the various disciplines so he's priming the team for what he will need

02:04:49 team for what he will need i see whether it follows i were you uh aware of any information being provided to you mr bushel in response to this request at this point in march 15.

02:05:00 in march 15. uh no

02:05:01 uh no [Applause]

02:05:05 if he didn't get information in response to this email would you have expected him to follow it up

02:05:13 if if he was expecting something particularly or explicitly then yes now if we go up to the top of the first page of this string this is an email from paul burroughs

02:05:25 paul burroughs to claire williams on the 28th of april 2015 it's copying you copying you in together with nick valente

02:05:38 valente um had paul burrows taken over from keith bushel by this stage as the cdm

02:05:46 coordinator yeah i think that's correct i don't follow the uh the the timeline exactly because paul paul was working with um with colin as well so i think there were

02:05:57 with colin as well so i think there were two perhaps two people involved and we can see sorry sorry paul and colin is

02:06:03 colin is is what i remember i see yeah seeing and we can see that the subject is still health and safety for our grandfather health and safety file and he says hi claire i'll be managing the process but this may be completed by one of my

02:06:14 this may be completed by one of my colleagues however to date i have not received any information but to be honest it's rare to receive information during the project it usually comes through at the end when there's little or no likelihood of it changing

02:06:24 changing so we see that there yeah and i think that's consistent with what you've just been telling us in terms of your experience i didn't particularly remember that email but yeah yes that's correct but is that the

02:06:37 yeah yes that's correct but is that the case

02:06:38 case if there's no pre-existing health and safety file so this was a building which had no health and safety file in existence is it still the case that

02:06:49 in existence is it still the case that those files aren't usually compiled till the end of a project where there's no existing one

02:06:56 that's my experience yes yeah can we just look at the approved code of practice for the 2007 regulations cdn regulations at this point this is

02:07:06 inq3013936 and this is also known as l144 so there we have the or sometimes referred to the a cop the approved code

02:07:17 referred to the a cop the approved code of practice for the cdn regulations it's quite a long document we can see at the bottom it's 106 pages were you familiar with this approved code of practice

02:07:30 code of practice i was aware of it um and some of the the key features of it but not the entire document yeah if we go to page 58 and just have a

02:07:41 yeah if we go to page 58 and just have a look at paragraph 259

02:07:46 it's at the bottom of that page we can see

02:07:49 see there it says what you must do and then it says

02:07:52 it says clients designers principal contractors other contractors and cdm coordinators all have legal duties in respect of the health and safety file and then a cdm coordinators must prepare

02:08:03 and then a cdm coordinators must prepare review

02:08:03 review amend or add to the file as the project progresses and give it to the client at the end of the project do you see that there yes so would you agree that this approved code of practice appears to be

02:08:15 approved code of practice appears to be contemplating that the file will be compiled

02:08:19 compiled during the project as it progresses and not just right at the end yes and indeed it's contemplating that it might be reviewed amended added to so that it's

02:08:32 reviewed amended added to so that it's an iterative process of building up this file would you agree with that

02:08:42 iterative process what yes a stage by stage process of building up the information you need in that i was going to say it would imply it was going backwards and forwards but i mean

02:08:54 and forwards but i mean building it as it goes along yes fair enough a stage by stage process of building

02:08:59 building building it um if practical completion were to be in october 2015 when would you expect that the health and safety file might uh

02:09:10 and safety file might uh be complete well the requirement on the requirement under the contract was for it to be provided two weeks before completion

02:09:21 provided two weeks before completion um in in practice it's it's provided in in draft um for comment probably um

02:09:32 um for comment probably um before that yeah and in some cases the process continues after pc subject to other parties being happy with anything fundamental that might be

02:09:43 with anything fundamental that might be missing yeah is my experience now um i just want to look at um some extracts from your notebooks we've recently had um disclosure of some of your notebooks can we go to art409454

02:09:57 we go to art409454 at page four this is your third notebook and what we're looking at is a transcript so the notebooks are in your handwriting and this is a transcript

02:10:10 and what we can see on this page is there seems to have been some notes you've made about health and safety files cdm related matters so you've got o m's gary compiles mf to

02:10:21 so you've got o m's gary compiles mf to sign

02:10:22 sign off can you help us what does gary compiles refer to i think gary was one of the site managers within the riding team

02:10:33 site managers within the riding team right yeah i believe yeah sorry was there a date on this at all um

02:10:40 all um so i know it's your third notebook i'm not sure we're aware of a date but we'll just double check um then we can say it says health and safety files cm cdmc was to and then it says

02:10:52 cdmc was to and then it says compile ryden were to provide building manual

02:10:57 manual so possibly around the time of the meeting

02:11:00 meeting in november 2015 is that is that possible

02:11:07 uh i honestly can't say okay um and then we can see it says the building manual is the o

02:11:12 is the o m that's operation and maintenance manuals isn't it that's correct and then you've said what the uh building air m's will comprise and we've got various um parts

02:11:22 parts the part four being the health and safety file do you see that there yes

02:11:33 do we take it at this point you realize that the health and safety file was going to be incorporated as part of the o m manual

02:11:47 oh yes it's often in practice provided as a separate document

02:11:55 document but we talk here in terms of a building manual

02:11:59 manual and the the three fundamental components of the manual i see can we then go on to another of your notebooks notebook five art four zeros nine four four six

02:12:20 four zeros nine four four six and there i think we can see a sorry if we look on page five of this notebook

02:12:32 under point nine i think we can see a list of what the health and safety file sorry point 11 health and safety file is to comprise it's got health and safety file building control planning

02:12:44 file building control planning service schedule residual risk assessment do you see that there yes can you help us do you think these are notes of a meeting you had uh yes yes

02:12:57 uh yes yes and does this record a discussion of what the health and safety file was going to contain

02:13:05 um i think we need to be a little careful here the the the requirements for the health and safety file have been would have been set out by by keith and then his um by

02:13:16 by keith and then his um by by the um colin or paul that followed in in the sense that i understood the uh the content hadn't changed these these are my notes in this meeting

02:13:29 these these are my notes in this meeting um where i'm recording um some of the things that i would see are key

02:13:35 key i think to the file yeah i understand that's helpful um do you know if the final health and safety file did contain

02:13:46 safety file did contain um documents relevant to these items was that ever something that you were aware of um i i didn't see the final health and safety file

02:13:58 final health and safety file get issued to the tmo but i certainly saw the building control certificate we were very aware of where we were with the

02:14:09 very aware of where we were with the planning conditions um the service schedule is a very typical item to be included yeah and the residual risk assessment

02:14:20 residual risk assessment um steve butler compiling was just a note in relation to an action he would undertake i think steve was putting together

02:14:27 together um elements of the o m's for ryden's yeah

02:14:31 yeah now in terms of handover of material from

02:14:34 from artelia to the tmo can we now go to art 4046

02:14:46 this is an email from paul burrows to claire williams copying you and simon cash in

02:14:52 cash in on 9th of september 2015 and he says i will be consolidating the cdmc document for the artelia project so that it can be issued to the principal designer under cdm

02:15:04 designer under cdm 2015. i envisage this to be completed within the next few days and will forward to yourself directly if you have any questions with regard to the handover or documentation please do not hesitate to contact me

02:15:16 please do not hesitate to contact me so do we understand this correctly is this paul burrows as the cdm coordinator from the 2007 regime handing over health and safety file information to

02:15:27 health and safety file information to the new

02:15:28 the new principal designer the tmo under the 2015 regulations so that's what's contemplated here yes

02:15:38 can we go then to art404949 and i want to start on bottom of page two

02:15:53 this is an email on the 23rd of october 2015 internally within artelia and it's from andrew i'm looking right at the very bottom for the moment

02:16:04 at the very bottom for the moment it's we can see it's from andrew malcolm and then if we go over the page to page three we can see it's to you copying in simon cash and michelle lowe

02:16:15 copying in simon cash and michelle lowe subject grenfell tower and he says this neil apparently you have all the cdm information apparently simon has spoken with claire

02:16:26 apparently simon has spoken with claire seems as if neil can you send the information to claire referencing conversation that she had with simon kind regards andrew do you see that there yes

02:16:36 there yes and then if we go one email up onto page two you respond on the same day at six o'clock at the bottom of that page that's right and you say i don't have anything guys

02:16:48 and you say i don't have anything guys and whatever is being issued needs to come from paul and or via simon does it not

02:16:53 not question mark you see that there yes so i think you're saying that anything that's going to be issued to the tmo needs

02:16:59 needs to come from the cdm coordinator um paul burrows yes if necessary via simon cash is the project yes director is that right yes

02:17:12 and then if we go to the top of page one paul burrows says says this he says andrew malcolm andrew the only information we

02:17:23 malcolm andrew the only information we have is attached this includes reviews of the principal contractors construction phase health and safety plan the old and updated f10 that's the form

02:17:34 the old and updated f10 that's the form isn't it setting out who's got the relevant cdm roles is that right yes reports associated with the construction phase of the project and then an agreed template for the

02:17:47 and then an agreed template for the health and safety file do you see that there yes now would you have expected there to be more prepared for this health and safety file at this stage i in october 2015.

02:18:00 at this stage i in october 2015. um i i don't think i gave a lot of thought to it to be honest this was the information that was available in october 15. this is what paul had

02:18:11 in october 15. this is what paul had handed over i don't remember giving any more thought to its sufficiency otherwise i see so you don't remember thinking well this looks a bit thin given that two and four um don't really add much to

02:18:24 two and four um don't really add much to the substance of the file so you've only really got one and three you don't really remember thinking that no my focus in october was on was on completion where we we started

02:18:37 was on completion where we we started the process of discussing what what would be required on the run up to completion at that time i think that was envisioned to be around january i see

02:18:50 can we then go to art art409356 this is an email from you to simon cash on the 27th of october 2015.

02:19:04 and you say this in point one at the top cdm

02:19:08 cdm following a further completion meeting today it transpires that claire has had no call from paul accordingly despite all the effort to ensure a smooth transition re-cdm claire considers artelia's efforts

02:19:19 artelia's efforts in this regard appalling andrew and i were quite embarrassed by the lack of professional closure that i think we all expected and planned for from paul can you exert some pressure on paul to

02:19:30 can you exert some pressure on paul to wrap this up much in the same way you suggested in a previous email claire still needs a cdm advisory type role and will probably bite paul's arm off if he's able to offer this role

02:19:42 offer this role and then you say below that as at today we have an expired f10 and a client expecting a handover of documents to include a partial health and safety file someone will need to help comply compile

02:19:53 someone will need to help comply compile a completed health and safety file so they remain scoped for artelia to see extra fee

02:19:59 extra fee so we can see what you've said there

02:20:04 now i want to ask you again would you have expected by this stage more to have been handed over from artelia to the tmo

02:20:14 when i say there to include a partial health and safety file i mean what constitutes a partial health and safety fire wouldn't be for me to gauge but

02:20:23 but certainly at that moment in time perhaps i was expecting to see more i acknowledge that yeah um do you think it was acceptable to hand the client a partial health and safety file at this point in october 15.

02:20:36 point in october 15. well it certainly wouldn't have been a completed one because the project hadn't completed

02:20:40 completed i think so sorry that may have come across a then it wasn't intended um you say that that claire williams thinks artelia is appalling and that you're quite

02:20:51 appalling and that you're quite embarrassed can you help us as to what in particular you found embarrassing about the situation yeah well this stems from the process that started in july where

02:21:03 that started in july where the dialogue had started on the fact change was coming and i thought it was incumbent on on artelia our team to

02:21:16 on artelia our team to um be very clear with with the tmo and claire

02:21:21 claire what what was happening perhaps what their options were and i did my best to encourage um i think paul at the time or simon i can't recall who there's an email

02:21:33 i can't recall who there's an email setting out how i thought we should do that and that was my view of how you professionally conclude a smooth transition in the matter

02:21:45 transition in the matter and that that didn't didn't happen in the way i'd like to have seen yeah i see on reading this it appears to be a complaint to simon cash about

02:21:56 complaint to simon cash about the cdm team at artelia was it meant to be read that way

02:22:05 um it's me escalating the issue and expressing how i felt um does that constitute a complaint it could be read that way but it it it is what it is um

02:22:17 it it is what it is um you know i was we were embarrassed it's not what had happened was not what i'd anticipated or expected to your knowledge was there ever any handover of documents or a file

02:22:29 handover of documents or a file in relation to the health and safety file to the tmo from artelia uh i believe there was subsequent to

02:22:40 i believe there was subsequent to this this dialogue i see what about handover of any documents to ryden you can see they were going to compile the o m manual which was going to incorporate the health and safety file were you ever aware of handing over

02:22:52 were you ever aware of handing over documents to ryden

02:22:55 no now the final topic i want to ask you about is about the in the construction phase itself and it's really about riding um

02:23:09 just before we get to that um we know that jrp john rowan and partners were employed as clerk of works and were looking at ryden's doing

02:23:22 and were looking at ryden's doing quality checks of ryden's work yes yes now we've heard in evidence in this inquiry that john rowan and partner were only contracted to perform a site inspection role and were

02:23:35 a site inspection role and were only on site once a week and that they were observing the work in snapshots that's what we've been told um was that your understanding at the time

02:23:46 time yes did you think that that was a sufficient amount of time for a clerk of works to be spending on a project such as this

02:23:59 yes i didn't have reservations about how much time they were they were spending in there right they're wrong yeah now in your witness statements you've made a number of comments about ryden

02:24:11 made a number of comments about ryden during the construction phase of the project and i want to ask you about a number of those passages in your statement

02:24:17 statement um you say paragraph 81 of your statement i don't think we need to turn this one up that they ryden had resource issues and these were causing delay can you just help us uh were there

02:24:29 can you just help us uh were there problems with the resourcing of key personnel within the ryden team as far as you perceived it yes i that's how i felt

02:24:40 yes i that's how i felt i think if we're talking around the period where do you have a specific period in mind here or well um i'll tell you what let me show you that part of your witness statement to be fair

02:24:50 fair um so this is art 406663 page 25 paragraph 81

02:25:01 you say in the first line there were also resource issues with ryden's own supply chain and within its own team these contributed to delays to the construction work

02:25:12 construction work and you've identified some of the comments that john rowan and partner raised in its site inspection reports in an earlier paragraph and then you refer to a site visit in august 2015. so that's the

02:25:23 site visit in august 2015. so that's the context in which you've said this yes i just wanted to ask you um if you can just help us explain what you thought the ryden's resource issues were within its own team

02:25:36 well i think i think this was around the time that simon lawrence was leaving

02:25:44 are you able to clarify that for me just to help job my memory i think it was around this time yes that simon lawrence left and steve blake took over as project manager okay so this this

02:25:55 so this this yeah this this was the period where um i started to feel and sense we weren't getting quite the service um we were expecting from ryden's

02:26:07 um we were expecting from ryden's that there was a um

02:26:12 that that there appeared to be um

02:26:16 that there appeared to be resource issues in my view with um

02:26:22 some of the things that needed to happen on site hence the reference to the site inspection reports so this was a this was a perception i was forming um over time i see from around this time

02:26:36 um over time i see from around this time you also mentioned in your statement that there were resource difficulties with ryden's subcontractors and in particular the cladding subcontractors can we look at that this is a page 10 of this witness statement paragraph 41

02:26:53 you say the main issue evident from the reports was delay in the cladding works which was a threat to the programme on the project this was an issue that as employers agent i was concerned about and i

02:27:04 agent i was concerned about and i formally raised it with ryden examples of the comments causing concern about john from john rowan and partners about the progress of the cladding installation in its site inspection reports include

02:27:15 inspection reports include and you give a number of examples and for example the first one 29th of july 2015 you've highlighted that the clerk of works was saying there were only seven external cladding fixers

02:27:28 were only seven external cladding fixers and i want to ask you just more generally did you form the view that the cladding installation was under resourced

02:27:36 well yeah that's essentially what was being reported you know progress was starting to uh to suffer

02:27:44 suffer and the view the observations of the inspectors were that you know there was inadequate workforce on on-site and um i think reference was made to the number

02:27:55 i think reference was made to the number of climbers being in use one particular time so yeah concerns were being expressed about the workforce for that team and the delays that were beginning to appear i see yeah um delay you also um

02:28:09 i see yeah um delay you also um raise the issue of delay and you've spoken about it at the very beginning of your evidence if we can look at paragraph

02:28:14 paragraph 95 of your first statement

02:28:18 on page 32 you say um there whilst the project is

02:28:29 you say um there whilst the project is one of the most delayed projects i have ever worked on none of the issues i identified to ride and were related to any concerns about the quality of the work do you see that there yes in your

02:28:41 do you see that there yes in your opinion what were the key factors that contributed to the delay on this project

02:28:48 generally the general delay because i i think

02:28:52 think sorry with respect you're you're jumping there i think there are large gaps between

02:28:59 between these when these when i've made them no i'm not i can't get across my message apologies

02:29:06 apologies we're talking about two fundamentally different parts of the project here aren't we

02:29:10 aren't we um so my comment in relation to 95 i can't recall whether that was in relation to the beginning when i came on board or towards the latter part but certainly the project was in delay when

02:29:21 certainly the project was in delay when i joined and that that delay was exacerbated by other other factors yeah to the point that the project ended up being handed over yeah even later than we were some six

02:29:33 yeah even later than we were some six seven months later yeah i think you're dealing with quite the the end phase of the project here because

02:29:37 because the next heading is lead up to practical completion you've talked about exchanges you had with steve blake in april 2016 just immediately above yes that's helpful thank you yes

02:29:48 helpful thank you yes yes i see

02:29:51 yes i see [Applause] is it right um then that despite the delay

02:29:57 delay and the resourcing issues is it right that you didn't have any concerns about the quality of ryden's work

02:30:06 um no only in safari as the the the clerk of works the site inspectors were monitoring and indeed measuring through a kpi system the

02:30:17 a kpi system the equality um which was quite high right right from the beginning um and dipped yeah

02:30:25 yeah and then was brought back up as their their issues and observations were resolved

02:30:29 resolved so in broad terms i i wasn't concerned about quality because the clerk of works ultimately was satisfied i see so you took comfort from the clerk of work very much so yeah yeah

02:30:41 work very much so yeah yeah now responsiveness you also mentioned in several places in your witness statement ryden's

02:30:46 ryden's what you say is a lack of responsiveness i just want to look at an email on this that you refer to this is art405053 this is an email from you to tony batty

02:30:58 this is an email from you to tony batty of silcox dawson and claire williams tony batty was the m e clerk of works wasn't he yes and you've copied in others including simon cash to this

02:31:11 including simon cash to this it's the 6th of november 2015 and i just want to pick it up in the second paragraph sorry it's to tony batty and claire williams

02:31:21 williams um we can see at the top there and you say claire either way this is a shoddy management by ryden of our team's time effort and i would urge you to elevate this to peter for his discussions with

02:31:33 this to peter for his discussions with steve

02:31:35 steve this demonstrates again that ryden must do better i hold a perception from their inaction here that they are apathetic to our efforts to help and need to be far more proactive in getting work complete and right first

02:31:46 getting work complete and right first time

02:31:47 time do we need a high level meeting to discuss the new elephant in the room tony john thoughts and this appears to be about

02:31:54 be about avoids inspection that's been done on the 5th of november um 2015. we can see that from the subject matter of the email um

02:32:05 email um can you just help us um what was the new elephant in the room you're referring to there okay so from memory here um we were

02:32:16 okay so from memory here um we were trying to ensure that work elements were ready for john and tony to

02:32:28 for john and tony to inspect and they had been raising observations and we were in a period here i believe um where

02:32:39 where having been told that work was ready they would arrive and the work wasn't ready observations that had been raised in previous reports hadn't been addressed so this was this was shoddy this was clumsy this was frustrating

02:32:51 clumsy this was frustrating yeah so

02:32:56 that's the essence of what was what was happening here time was being wasted works were not being finished when we were told they were being finished and observations weren't being closed out in the way that perhaps they had been before

02:33:07 before right yeah i see but we were trying i think as a team you know i worked quite i worked quite closely with tony and john

02:33:15 and john um so as a team we were working hard with ryden to help get them and the elements were over the line yeah so by bringing it

02:33:26 so by bringing it being a bit more methodical in um inspection regime there's a better dialogue when i came on board i created that was a better dialogue between them um i mean john and tony hadn't been

02:33:38 um i mean john and tony hadn't been sitting in progress meetings i saw that as critical so advised that to the client and they sat in the progress meeting so they were very much at the forefront of the issues the challenges and ultimately some of these resource challenges that we've

02:33:50 these resource challenges that we've i i allude to here yeah now we can see in this email that you're urging claire williams to ask to elevate this to peter for his discussions with steve is that elevate it to peter madison

02:34:04 yes i believe so and and for him to discuss you say with steve is that then steve blake who we know was the um yeah i think so ryden project lead at this point

02:34:15 this point yeah um so by this time were you aware that peter madison and stephen blake were having regular discussions i think it was around this time that i'd learned that they were having conversations

02:34:26 conversations yes and were those discussions bypassing artelia

02:34:30 artelia were you sometimes not aware of exactly what they were discussing that's the impression i was given when i learned that was happening what did you think of that

02:34:39 that at the time um i was i was surprised i didn't think that that was that was right but um it didn't phase me um but i think there

02:34:52 it didn't phase me um but i think there was much

02:34:53 was much much email traffic on this matter later right

02:34:56 right can we look at um an email a rt406206 this is an email on the first of october from

02:35:05 from simon cash to you

02:35:08 yes and i just want to look at that first paragraph he says neil for your information i had a good meeting with peter madison this afternoon we went through the various concerns regarding

02:35:20 concerns regarding quality program cost etc he is conscious that his relationship with steve goes back a long way and steve talks to him direct

02:35:28 direct however peter does not want that relationship to circumvent artelia and bypass the role that we are playing in trying to get the project finished to the required quality and within budget peter fully appreciates what we are

02:35:39 peter fully appreciates what we are doing and is very supportive of our approach

02:35:42 approach what we did agree was that he and i would meet with steve next week to have an offline chat to review the overall situation

02:35:48 situation and try and explain that no one is threatening ryden's or trying to be aggressive but rather we are trying to guide them as to what they need to do to sort themselves out hopefully this might make steve open up

02:35:59 hopefully this might make steve open up a little more than when he's in meetings where he feels under threat and is therefore less forthcoming so that that's what simon cash is saying to you um

02:36:14 is saying to you um i think it was simon cash's evidence that he'd heard or learned that matt peter madison and steve blake were having discussions shortly before this email in october 2015.

02:36:27 can you help us what what does simon cash mean there where he says four lines up try to try and explain that no one is threatening ryden's or trying to be aggressive

02:36:43 well that never really made much sense to me at all because no one was ever threatening riding or trying to be aggressive it's just not it's just not in my nature and um i

02:36:57 it's just not in my nature and um i i dismissed that i i found steve

02:37:02 to be somewhat you know defensive about some of the observations that we we were making and um hence the reference to

02:37:13 and um hence the reference to you know opening up a little bit more i mean i would imply that he wasn't opening up and that's certainly a perception i held i mean we we in the progress meetings we were trying to discuss expectations

02:37:25 to discuss expectations we were trying to help by introducing um you know a control mechanism a tracker to manage

02:37:34 to manage effectively the um the completion process

02:37:38 process and i just i just recall getting a sense that um

02:37:42 that um steve wasn't really bought into what what we were trying to do yeah did you feel at the time you received this email that it was effectively telling you to back off and not be so demanding of ryden no

02:37:54 and not be so demanding of ryden no not at all

02:37:58 do you think that um that your performance of your role and expectations you had made clear of ryden in your role might have contributed to them feeling

02:38:10 might have contributed to them feeling under pressure or threatened i don't believe that no i mean we we we were trying to help set out a route map to

02:38:21 to help set out a route map to completion um there were frustrations with resource there were issues with the supply chain contractors have gone bust

02:38:33 we had access issues with tenants there was a myriad of challenges that needed managing here and i i

02:38:41 i i imagine with respect that steve was under some immense pressure to um manage the team to do what he needed to do

02:38:49 to do we were trying to help do that by introducing tools and manage what needed to be managed um the meetings were attended by the

02:39:00 the meetings were attended by the the entire team and at no times or we were in any way aggressive so i i didn't you know if somebody felt threatened being aware of that was useful in terms

02:39:12 being aware of that was useful in terms of how i may have then gone into the next meeting but i don't i don't believe i changed my style or attitude or frankly my collaborative nature i see so

02:39:22 i see so were you puzzled then when you received this yeah i was i was surprised yeah yeah

02:39:27 yeah okay yeah now we know that much later um in march 2016 artelia uh and the tmo did end up

02:39:38 artelia uh and the tmo did end up writing a formal complaint about ryden can you remember that in fact you've referred to it earlier in your in your evidence to us is that right yes can we go to um your initial draft of

02:39:49 can we go to um your initial draft of that complaint art 4054

02:39:54 it's dated the 26th of march 2016 and you sent it to david gibson and peter madison for comments and thoughts so we can see that in the top

02:40:05 thoughts so we can see that in the top you say

02:40:06 you say in claire's absence may i invite your comments and thoughts in relation to the following email which i've drafted to ryden

02:40:11 ryden on account of their recent efforts to complete this project tony batty and john white are in full support of the content happy to discuss yes and then if we can just read down the draft that you were proposing to

02:40:23 the draft that you were proposing to send to steve blake is that right that's right um we can see you say we are writing to set out our frustrations and concerns about a number of current issues with this project as both the client team and consultant

02:40:34 as both the client team and consultant team hold a perception that ryden could and should be doing far better in the run-up to completion and then you say we would like to see this email treated as a formal complaint

02:40:47 this email treated as a formal complaint elevated to requisite level in writing maintenance to ensure those empowered to resolve these matters have the opportunity to do so at the earliest convenience and then you say in no particular order

02:40:59 and then you say in no particular order and you set out a number of complaints it begins at item one with resource you say you're stunned to learn that gary martin's been withdrawn from the

02:41:10 gary martin's been withdrawn from the project and you're withdrawing and being placed with a mark a mike brown i'm not gonna read all of all of that but then if we go to um item two lower down

02:41:23 item two is about meeting attendance neither you nor mike were present at the progress meeting last week we find this incredible when yet again the target completion date has moved and then

02:41:34 date has moved and then three handover matters concerned that our provision of a successful soft landing is being compromised by the lack of proactive effort to provide and you list out a number of things that you feel are

02:41:44 feel are missing there in terms of handover and then at the end of this draft email you say

02:41:51 you say finally our biggest issue remains what appears to be an extremely lackluster approach to completing the project with no real sense of urgency willingness nor commitment from the ryden team

02:42:02 ryden team it just doesn't feel like this project is important to ryden or that you have grasped what success will look like for the client in may this is a real frustration given our early adoption of the completion

02:42:13 early adoption of the completion countdown process and meetings which we have not seen ride and embrace as proactively and seriously as hoped

02:42:20 as hoped so that's your draft for comment that's sent to the tmo if we can look at the version that was actually sent this is art406149

02:42:37 if we look at the bottom of page one and on to page two here we see the email that you sent to steve blake and it appears to be identical

02:42:48 appears to be identical to what you drafted except if we look at the next page that final paragraph that you'd previously uh included finally our biggest issue

02:43:00 uh included finally our biggest issue remains

02:43:01 remains about the lackluster approach that final paragraph

02:43:04 paragraph isn't in this version that's right isn't it right

02:43:07 it right can you help why was that final paragraph removed

02:43:13 it's quite a serious email it's quite a serious complaint yeah i've never had to write a complaint like that before so i now courtesy i invited the tmo's

02:43:25 so i now courtesy i invited the tmo's comments

02:43:27 comments and um they responded and suggested that that was a little emotive i didn't disagree with that yeah um i can write fairly emotive emails and

02:43:38 i can write fairly emotive emails and then reflect on them and take the emotional bits out for me the substance of the email was key

02:43:44 key and i wanted them to be cognisant and aware and in support of the substance of my complaint which they were along with

02:43:56 were along with tony and john at this stage we were starting to get quite cross

02:44:03 and this is what this email is seeking to do to escalate the issue yeah can you remember at whose suggestion was that final paragraph removed

02:44:13 i think uh i think david gibbs applied for memory yeah mr chairman i'm aware of the time i am on the last two pages of my question so

02:44:25 on the last two pages of my question so if i could just what does that indicate in terms of time oh five minutes

02:44:31 you have to keep going for a little longer than we of course yes that's very good thank you thank you i'm grateful um if we can then go to steve blake's response to this uh complaint if we go to that art 406648

02:44:45 uh complaint if we go to that art 406648 and we look at page two his emails at the top

02:44:52 so we see steve blake fourth of april 2016.

02:44:55 2016. he says neil whilst i appreciate your concerns regarding completion i do not consider your comments to be representative of the team's effort we have worked every weekend since beginning of 2016 and numerous out-of-hour sessions to accommodate

02:45:07 out-of-hour sessions to accommodate resident access in terms of resource my involvement remains the same and mike brown has been introduced to help me with my duties gary martin has started a new contract and keith miller has been brought in to complete the new build flats

02:45:19 complete the new build flats our motivation to provide a quality product for kctmo and their residence remains undiminished in the interim our next progress meeting happy to get together regarding any detailing you're not

02:45:30 detailing you're not clear about so that's his response to you

02:45:34 you um it's clear that he doesn't agree with the complaint does he no did you notice any improvement or change in ryden's performance following the complaint

02:45:48 fundamentally no

02:45:52 did you actually discuss the matters directly with steve blake so can you help us as to what was said i had a conversation with steve blake yes in response to this i think there are a couple of responses because i follow up

02:46:04 couple of responses because i follow up on this later

02:46:08 requesting an update on a couple of the items but let's come back to the phone call now yeah i remember speaking to steve briefly just explaining

02:46:19 steve briefly just explaining i've got to set this out this is this is our position um he reiterated some of the points that he'd made

02:46:26 he'd made he'd explained to me that there is nowhere else to escalate this issue he is the regional director and he put me right on a couple of points about mike brown

02:46:37 on a couple of points about mike brown and my understanding about resources which was fine i think that's reflected in a further email yeah um and as i said there was a subsequent email where i think i acknowledged the discussion but can you still advise on

02:46:50 discussion but can you still advise on a couple of the items actually that's how oracle so is it a cordial conversation you had with steve blake yeah yes i think it's called you it's professional um but nonetheless we're we're discussing the

02:47:02 nonetheless we're we're discussing the fact that we're unhappy yeah and you made it clear you were unhappy

02:47:07 unhappy i think the email yeah i think we were unhappy yeah if we go to art 406672 this is an email you sent to simon cash on the 9th of may

02:47:18 2016. yeah um

02:47:23 yeah um and um we looked at this earlier when i i was asking about being sucked into design issues with the tmo but i want to ask you about the first few lines of this email

02:47:34 few lines of this email you say simon o m's are unacceptable to the clerk of works this is just a flag that this is becoming a fast despite all our efforts to ensure a smooth landing i have to say i do not think i've ever worked with a contractor operating

02:47:45 contractor operating with this level of nonchalance you see that there yes

02:47:52 why despite the complaint that you've made do you think ryden continued to perform in this way i i don't know but i they continued

02:48:06 some of the things did not change information was still coming late works were still not

02:48:14 not being presented is complete in the way the clerical works had expected and this was the straw and broke the cameras back in

02:48:20 back in this email where you know the the o m's following comments made by the o m's by the clock of works the the o m's were still unacceptable yeah so i i just took the view that you know

02:48:31 just took the view that you know does yeah does anyone actually care yeah so that was that the operation a maintenance manual that's been provided to the clerk of works yes you didn't think or they sorry they didn't think was was acceptable did they

02:48:42 didn't think was was acceptable did they correct

02:48:42 correct yeah now can we just go back um finally one last document to your notebook

02:48:49 notebook um this is notebook four a rt409448 on page three

02:49:00 [Applause] and we can see a note right in the middle of that page there's a note there that says uh with a little asterisk next to it

02:49:12 little asterisk next to it sb response is not adequate and then you've written no emotion calm can you help us um was that a note about steve blake's response to the complaint

02:49:26 steve blake's response to the complaint if the date of the meeting coincides in yes uh but i'm again i'm it's the timeline that's throwing me i'm sorry if if

02:49:37 i'm sorry if if if my emails follow this note then there is a direct correlation but writing knowing i i i don't remember this note but yeah writing that down doesn't surprise me i think if we look at page one

02:49:48 at page one of this fourth notebook page one we can see it saying grenfell complaint

02:49:54 complaint monday tweak the eye to we client and project team david gibson and peter madison to comment simon cash other amends so that that appears in the beginning of this notebook to be

02:50:05 notebook to be you noting down some things about the the complaint email and so this is after that in your notebook it's

02:50:16 is after that in your notebook it's three pages on in your notebook on page three um was no emotion calm

02:50:27 was no emotion calm an instruction about what tone to take in your discussions with ryden or was it a comment on stephen blake's demeanor

02:50:39 it was a note on stephen blake's demeanor okay

02:50:45 now considering all of those issues that you raised about ryden i want to ask you finally did you ever have a concern that ryden's performance compromised the quality of their work or

02:50:57 compromised the quality of their work or compromised health and safety including attention to fire safety on the project no mr chairman thank you i've come to the end of my question right we could just have a short break

02:51:08 right we could just have a short break yes report to five give you long enough yes i mean i'm just looking

02:51:15 only one question so far so um i mean maybe we could even go no no let's not be too sorry i can't see the clock for the for the lights yes quarter two yeah yes

02:51:26 for the lights yes quarter two yeah yes well mr reed ms granger's come to the end of her questions but uh she needs to check that there's nothing she's omitted and there may be questions from others who aren't in the room that we need to consider putting to you

02:51:37 consider putting to you so again have a short break we'll uh come back of course to five and then see if there are any more questions for you all right who would you like to go to the usher please thank you thank you

02:51:56 right cough to fight thank you

03:00:52 yes would you ask mr reed to come back in please thank you

03:01:06 in please thank you all right mr reed well we'll see if there are any more questions for you yes a screen

03:01:09 a screen no i have no further questions no further questions i'm sorry if that's disappointing um it just goes to us to thank the witness very much for his assistance yes well again thank you very much for

03:01:20 yes well again thank you very much for coming here today to give your evidence mr reed i'm sorry we kept you waiting a bit but it really has been very helpful to hear what you have to tell us and we're very grateful to you and now you are free to go thank you

03:01:31 you are free to go thank you it's important to me there's an opportunity just to just to say i would like to offer my condolences to all the bereaved and everyone affected by this

03:01:40 by this this dreadful event and i do hope that the inquiry can help establish what the industry can learn from this so that um it really will never happen

03:01:52 that um it really will never happen again

03:01:53 again so i just wanted the opportunity to say that as well thank you very much thank you right all right would you like to give the usher thank you

03:02:09 all right miss grange well that must be it for the afternoon thank you thank you and indeed for the week and we'll resume on monday at 10 o'clock yes with the first of the tmo witnesses right good thank you very much 10

03:02:20 right good thank you very much 10 o'clock on monday please thank you

03:02:45 you