Building Control Expert Evidence - Tuesday 27th October 2020 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:15 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to begin hearing from expert witnesses instructed by the inquiry

00:00:24 inquiry but it may help if i just say one thing before we start we're not inviting the experts at this stage to give us their opinions on possible recommendations for changing the existing state of affairs

00:00:37 the existing state of affairs that's something will come later on uh but for that reason they will not be asked questions about potential recommendations at this stage and we shall not be inviting

00:00:49 stage and we shall not be inviting core participants to provide us with questions

00:00:52 questions in relation to that matter yes ms grange yes thank you mr chairman if we could have our building control expert now miss beryl menzies please

00:01:21 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much expenses would you like to sit down

00:01:32 much expenses would you like to sit down please

00:01:32 please and make us have comfortable yes it's strange yes thank you good morning miss menzies thank you very much

00:01:43 morning miss menzies thank you very much for coming to give oral evidence today and for all the assistance you've provided the inquiry with its work um i'm going to be asking you questions today about your expert report which is prepared for module one

00:01:55 prepared for module one of phase two of this inquiry if at any point you don't understand any of my questions

00:02:00 questions uh please ask me to repeat it or put the point in a different way if you can try and keep your voice up the lady sitting to your right is transcribing we want a nice clear note of your

00:02:12 we want a nice clear note of your evidence

00:02:13 evidence now if i can just go to the reports that you've provided to the inquiry you first provided us with a report in october 2019 that the reference for that is bmer

00:02:24 that is bmer 601

00:02:27 601 um there's that report and then there was also an appendix to that report containing plans drawings and sections that was bmer 602

00:02:40 and then we have an we had an errata sheet containing corrections to that october 2019 report those corrections were april 2020 and that's bmer

00:02:52 that's bmer 603 thank you and then we have an amended version of your main october 2019 report that was dated

00:03:03 dated april 2020 and that incorporates the corrections um that's bmer 604 there we go and that's the main report

00:03:14 there we go and that's the main report that i'm going to be asking you questions about today and just to complete the picture in terms of all the written reports you provided

00:03:23 provided there was an appendix to that amended report

00:03:26 report again containing plans drawings and sections

00:03:30 sections dated april 2020 that's bmer 605

00:03:36 605 and then there's been a further very short corrections sheet and a rata sheet um dealing with some very minor further corrections uh that you've done in the last few days that's bmer

00:03:48 that's bmer 606. yes

00:03:51 606. yes so that's the complete suite of reports we have from you can i just at this stage go to the last page of your report um your main report that's bmr

00:04:02 report um your main report that's bmr bmer 604 a page 160 and we can see at the in the last paragraph there we have a declaration there and we have your

00:04:15 a declaration there and we have your signature is that your signature it is and have you provided this expert report in the same way that you would provide a report to a court yes i have and can you confirm that the

00:04:27 yes i have and can you confirm that the factual matters set out set out in your report are true to the best of your knowledge and belief they are and does your report represent your true and complete professional opinion

00:04:37 opinion on the matters addressed within it it does great thank you so i just want to start now with some questions about your qualifications and your background if we turn within that main report bma

00:04:50 turn within that main report bma bmer 604 at page three we can see here that you've set out your professional qualifications and

00:05:02 professional qualifications and sorry and your experience and we can see that you are a fellow of the chartered association of building engineers the cabe

00:05:13 engineers the cabe can you help us how long have you been a fellow of that organization um wow since it became a chartered organization which was about four years

00:05:25 organization which was about four years ago

00:05:25 ago prior to that i was a it was the association of building engineers which was preceded by the incorporated association of architects and surveyors right yeah thank you and

00:05:37 right yeah thank you and you tell us also that you were president of the association of building engineers between

00:05:42 between may 2009 and may 2010 is that correct correct how long have you been a member of the association of building engineers approximately

00:05:56 30 years yeah so a long time a long time yeah now just looking back at your career is it right that your first role in the industry

00:06:07 first role in the industry was with the greater london council in the building regulations division between 1973 and 1985. yes and if we look at the bottom of this

00:06:19 yes and if we look at the bottom of this page

00:06:20 page we can see there under that heading that you trained and promoted through grades within the division

00:06:27 division to become group officer responsible for the fire precautions act and building legislation and deputy senior surveyor responsible for entertainment and sports licensing in

00:06:38 entertainment and sports licensing in greater london we see that there yes that's correct now can you help us that first role the group officer responsible for fire precautions the fire precautions act and building

00:06:49 the fire precautions act and building legislation just help us what did that role involve the building legislation would have been at the

00:06:56 at the beginning the london building acts dealing specifically with matters relating to means of escape and very large buildings where special provisions were

00:07:07 provisions were made under section 20 of the 39 london building and acts amendment act and the fire precautions act was we prepared fire certificates

00:07:18 prepared fire certificates the fire precautions act preceded the regulator reform fire safety order yes as we know it now yes thank you that's really helpful and after that you tell us that you moved to the london borough of tower

00:07:30 moved to the london borough of tower hamlets

00:07:31 hamlets and you tell us that you became a chief engineer

00:07:34 engineer implementing the building regulations and the london building act with responsibility for specialist offices dealing with innovative new buildings under construction

00:07:45 construction so we have that there correct that was at the time of the docklands redevelopment so it was a very very busy office

00:07:51 office yes yes and then since 1991 you've been an independent fire consultant yes can you just in short explain what

00:08:02 yes can you just in short explain what that involves um it would be employed by clients and they could be local authorities or generally independent clients whereby

00:08:13 or generally independent clients whereby they would be looking for advice in relation to achieving compliance mainly with the building regulations as we know them now or to conduct risk assessments under the order

00:08:24 order yeah as they are required under the regulatory reform order 2005. yes and you are a director of menzies partners limited um what does menzies partners limited do

00:08:37 um what does menzies partners limited do mostly fire consultancy and now some building

00:08:40 building surveying my partner does that i only do the fire surveying site yes yeah now just help us to what extent do you think that the fact that you've not worked in a local

00:08:52 fact that you've not worked in a local building control department since 1990 affects your ability to comment on practice within local building control departments a good part of that independent practice

00:09:04 a good part of that independent practice has been working for local authorities and seeing how they individually practice

00:09:10 practice and i've also been on the receiving end of building control and subject to what they require and the information that they receive etc so from that answer do we take it that

00:09:21 so from that answer do we take it that you you feel you've got a good awareness of what a competent local authority building control department ought to be doing

00:09:29 doing i do um my involvement also with sick air the registration body for in approved inspectors means that we look at both sides of the coin so to speak so i get a good

00:09:40 of the coin so to speak so i get a good insight

00:09:41 insight from why things are changing and how each side reacts to each other in fact yes and just finally in terms of your experience can you also confirm that

00:09:52 experience can you also confirm that you've previously been a member of the fire safety part b committee of the building regulations advisory committee or brac brac that's correct in relation

00:10:03 brac brac that's correct in relation to the revisions of approved document b in 2006.

00:10:08 in 2006. yes yes and can you confirm that you've previously been a member of the building control

00:10:13 control performance standards advisory group the bp bcp sag of brac correct and i think that still exists

00:10:23 exists but um since the fire and the changes that pursued following uh the hackett report we have not met i see

00:10:31 see yeah thank you now i want to turn now uh just to some uh general questions at the beginning about the regulatory regime um and if we look at just pick it up at

00:10:43 um and if we look at just pick it up at paragraph 55 of your reports bme bmer 604 page 12.

00:10:53 we can see there that you say the primary legislation was and remains the building act 1984 section 91 2 of this the act states that it is the function of local authorities to enforce building

00:11:06 of local authorities to enforce building regulations in their areas subject to section 5 3 exempt bodies 48 1 effective initial notice in force and 53 2

00:11:14 and 53 2 effective initial notice ceasing to be enforced

00:11:17 enforced so there you tell us that the building act 1984 is the primary legislation does that mean that's the main source of obligations for the building control body that

00:11:28 for the building control body that they're derived from that act in as much as that instructs the local authority to enforce building regulations in their area and allows regulations to be made

00:11:39 and allows regulations to be made building regulations to be made and approved documents to be formulated under

00:11:43 under the government or designated body yes yes thank you now um as you say and you've just touched on it there we know that the building regulations themselves are made by the

00:11:55 regulations themselves are made by the secretary of state pursuant to a power given to them in the building act 1984 and specifically that section one of the building act 1984 isn't it correct yeah and we also know that section six of the building act 1984

00:12:08 section six of the building act 1984 gives the secretary of state the power to issue

00:12:10 to issue practical guidance to the building regulations and those are the approved documents that you've just referred to aren't they they are thank you now just on that topic of approved documents for a moment

00:12:22 topic of approved documents for a moment they are not themselves the building regulations are they no they are not and um is it fair to say that their purpose is to give practical guidance as to how to meet the

00:12:33 guidance as to how to meet the requirements of the building regulations themselves it is but they are not the only means of doing so if one can adopt british standards or other guidance or start from basic principles of fire engineering

00:12:44 engineering but they are used um to set the the level at which one should attain a minimum standard of reasonable fire safety they are minimum standards

00:12:57 fire safety they are minimum standards for most generic buildings yes but if you had a an unusual building you may not even go near approved document b but you'd always look to the standard in them to compare

00:13:08 them to compare yes as a benchmark indeed yeah and and that description that you've just given is that how they should be understood by building control bodies themselves yes i've got no reason to think they

00:13:19 yes i've got no reason to think they would think otherwise and does it follow that non-compliance with an approved document does not necessarily mean that there's been a breach of the building regulations correct in your experience what role

00:13:32 correct in your experience what role does the approved documents play in the day-to-day work of a building control officer primary document of reference i would suggest

00:13:43 suggest i don't know a building control office has not got an approved document b in particular that's not thumbed and very well used and annotated yes

00:13:56 and is it right that although the approved documents are not the only way to comply with the building regulations is it fair to say that if they are to be used they should be used holistically i read as a whole rather than just

00:14:09 i read as a whole rather than just dipping in in and out and considering sections in isolation

00:14:13 isolation correct it's very important because each part

00:14:16 part b1 to b5 relies on the other so an assumption in b3 leads on to recommendations in b4

00:14:27 leads on to recommendations in b4 or something in b2 will be reliant on b1 and vice versa so it has to be taken as a whole no cherry picking as such yes i see yeah

00:14:40 now thinking about the in the context of a building control officer's work does it follow that it would be necessary to do it to identify at an early stage on any project what route for compliance was being used

00:14:53 what route for compliance was being used route for compliance in order to achieve the building regulations being on what guidance would be adopted yes yes yes so so you're clear are you that a

00:15:05 yes so so you're clear are you that a building control officer ought to have a good understanding at the outset of the project

00:15:10 project whether it's using approved document b as the route to compliant or a fire engineered solution that's going to be separate from that yes and if the person looking at that

00:15:22 yes and if the person looking at that project

00:15:23 project felt they did not have the experience say to deal with a fire engineering route

00:15:27 route then they should speak to somebody and gain

00:15:30 gain outside perhaps advice

00:15:38 yes and if the approved documents are going to be used would it be necessary for the building control inspector to use the approved documents as the basis for

00:15:49 documents as the basis for all of their checks from that point onwards

00:15:55 onwards for most projects yes

00:15:59 as i say the approved document addresses most types of building but the building regulations are not there to stop innovation so if there was anything there that in the approved document that wasn't

00:16:11 the approved document that wasn't suitable

00:16:12 suitable for use on that particular project then they would look elsewhere or ask for what was being proposed to be justified

00:16:20 justified and to include in that justification where that justification was coming from yes and when you say that they they might look elsewhere would that normally be to some other kind of

00:16:32 that normally be to some other kind of industry guidance or british standard yes in my experience it would normally be a british standard or if it's something that occurred say relatively recently because the

00:16:44 say relatively recently because the approved documents amendments quite a performance to get that amended so sometimes it would be an industry guidance document from a recognized industry body that would be referred to

00:16:56 would be referred to yes now full planned applications i want to ask you some questions about these for the for the moment we've heard that the building control process at grenfell tower

00:17:07 grenfell tower is described in the context of a full plans application is it right that any works that include a workplace and are subject to the regulatory reform fire safety order

00:17:18 fire safety order 2005 require a full plans application to be made

00:17:23 be made yes if the process that's adopted is the local authority building control route yes as opposed to the approved inspector route correct yes i see and

00:17:35 yes i see and um if we can turn within your report at page 22 now we can see that you you've helpfully set out there for us this is regulation 14 perhaps we ought to just pick it up

00:17:47 14 perhaps we ought to just pick it up on the page before just to orientate ourselves if we go to page 21 we can see at the bottom this is full plans regulation 14 of the building regulations 2010.

00:18:00 building regulations 2010. and i want to focus uh on subsection three for a moment so it says their full plans shall consist of a a description of the proposed building

00:18:11 a a description of the proposed building work

00:18:12 work renovation or replacement of a thermal element

00:18:15 element change to the building's energy status or material change of use and the plans particulars and statements required by paragraphs 1 and 2 of regulation 13.

00:18:26 and then i i think we can pick it up then at

00:18:29 then at sea uh any other plans which are necessary to show that the work would comply with these regulations and little b is a specific

00:18:40 and little b is a specific requirement where paragraph h4 of schedule 1 imposes a requirement relating to a drain or sewer or disposal main

00:18:49 main yes yes now just looking at section 3a there where it requires a description of the proposed building works can you explain in practice the level of

00:19:01 can you explain in practice the level of detail you would expect to be provided in that regard

00:19:07 it will vary with each project but if it was a new build it would have to state it's a new build if it was an extension an extension a refurbishment renovation

00:19:18 an extension a refurbishment renovation basic main topics structural alterations additional residential accommodation things that would be matters that are addressed under the

00:19:30 matters that are addressed under the building regulations yes i see and would you expect i mean what kind of level of detail would you expect would you expect drawings plans to be submitted yes drawings

00:19:43 to be submitted yes drawings plans of a nature that would principally show that the means of escape and the fire brigade access were viable it's most things can be amended as the design

00:19:57 can be amended as the design progresses it's very difficult to move the building if the fire brigade can't get there

00:20:02 get there so that has to be a fundamental proposal that the brigade's fire access is viable and the means of escape is a prime factor

00:20:12 factor and if it requires additional staircases etc they would require

00:20:20 require major redesign so the principle of escape is generally paramount to indicating that it is viable

00:20:29 viable yeah now means of escape we know is is b1 in schedule 1 to the building regulations and far access is b5

00:20:40 and far access is b5 correct just help us if though there were going to be renovations or refurbishments which affected the external wall and touched on b4 would you expect to

00:20:51 and touched on b4 would you expect to see

00:20:52 see detailed plans relating to that showing compliance with the building regulations if it was a major component of the project yes not necessarily at the initial stage but

00:21:04 not necessarily at the initial stage but it should be part of the description and a description that would outline the extent of the actual external will work yeah and we may come

00:21:17 external will work yeah and we may come back to this later would it include the materials to be used in the external wall experience would suggest at that stage it may not be defined what those materials are because the ongoing

00:21:28 materials are because the ongoing planning discussions may be protracted but the principles of it should be established in an early stage of the project not

00:21:39 in an early stage of the project not necessarily at the actual point of submission but as a prime aspect of it early into the

00:21:45 the uh process i see yeah and then we see there sorry yes um the purpose of a full plans application as i currently understand it is to

00:21:58 as i currently understand it is to provide information to building control that will enable building control to see that the work is going to comply with the building regulations correct if you don't know what the

00:22:09 correct if you don't know what the materials

00:22:11 materials proposed for use are how can you tell whether they comply with the building regulations

00:22:18 if you had a small project like a house you could probably get all the information at the point of the building reg submission the way the project develops it's very

00:22:30 the way the project develops it's very unlikely

00:22:31 unlikely that at the point of a full plans application you would have all that information to hand the reason being you want the comfort of somebody doing the project

00:22:43 doing the project of knowing that building control is on board

00:22:46 board and that you're getting some indication that they are happy with the project but in the meantime the design team is still

00:22:54 still furthering through and plowing through all the various stages of the design to end up it may be the clients changing their view it may be that planning is dictating that you change

00:23:05 that you change your view so you would not expect for a full plans application other than the most simple buildings for all the details to be

00:23:16 buildings for all the details to be there

00:23:16 there but you need to have sufficient details to know that it's viable and the critical ones are those that will not require a major redevelopment of the design well i have to say i just

00:23:28 of the design well i have to say i just wonder whether that's what the regulations say or whether the regulations actually contemplate that you should have all the information before you make a full plans application

00:23:39 before you make a full plans application i suppose ultimately that's a question of law but uh yeah the the reason there are two forms of gaining building regulations approval one is the building

00:23:51 regulations approval one is the building notice

00:23:53 notice and one is the full plans the four plans is dictated to be necessary for a building

00:24:01 building where the regulatory reform fire safety order the order imposes um a requirement that the building

00:24:11 building basically should be fit for purpose and that the fire precautions are appropriate to avoid a situation where a building is built is then occupied the fire risk

00:24:23 is then occupied the fire risk assessment is carried out and a significant amount of work is required by virtue of that assessment the government decided that a full plans

00:24:34 the government decided that a full plans application should be made for any building where the order

00:24:39 the order applied to that building on occupation whereby

00:24:42 whereby the fire authority who are responsible for compliance with the order can look at the building and say the vote by virtue of that use we don't

00:24:53 the vote by virtue of that use we don't think this is appropriate and they recommend that the following measures are incorporated at the construction stage it was found in previous years when the two

00:25:04 found in previous years when the two pieces of legislation when it was the fire precautions act were separate that people were being asked to put in additional staircases because the details of the building

00:25:16 because the details of the building known to building control at the time on occupation were different so the legislation allowed additional measures to be required by virtue of the order shall we say

00:25:28 virtue of the order shall we say um and the government was keen to avoid that because of what it imposed on the building owners and the developers etc

00:25:38 all right thank you just going back then to um regulation 14 3 a so you've explained what what you say is meant

00:25:48 is meant in a a description of the proposed building work and i think you're you're placing reliance there aren't you on the fact it talks about a description

00:25:57 of the work yes yes

00:26:02 but then the plans go on to

00:26:07 indicate compliance yes because then we come

00:26:10 come so my next question was about regulation so 3c

00:26:13 so 3c there it then says any other plans which are necessary to show that the work would comply with these regulations so is that what you're saying as well as the description you've got to have

00:26:24 the description you've got to have enough

00:26:25 enough necessary to show that the work would comply with the regulations yes the i think the my description of how the full plans regime works

00:26:36 regime works is supported by the fact that the the government allows there is provision within the regulations to allow a conditional approval

00:26:45 approval yes whereby the building regulated body can impose conditions which then become requirements by law whereby additional information is subsequently

00:26:56 subsequently submitted for review and that can be accepted or rejected at the time yes yep great and that would be a condition of submitting further plans which demonstrate

00:27:09 further plans which demonstrate compliance is that right yes plans details um justifications for what's proposed etc if the plans show a contravention that

00:27:20 if the plans show a contravention that application must be rejected yes yeah now just picking up then um on another section of your report about this topic and i think in essence we've heard what you you've

00:27:32 in essence we've heard what you you've said about this already if we go to paragraph

00:27:35 paragraph 233 of your report on page 60

00:27:41 and i just want to look at the first few lines there you say on anything other than a small project all the details required to show full compliance with the building regulations will not be available at the point a

00:27:52 will not be available at the point a full plans application is deposited and then you say the initial details submitted should indicate that the means of escape proposal is generally compliant in principle and that the fire service accessed is or

00:28:04 that the fire service accessed is or remains adequate and then you say if the applicant and the building control body agree a conditional approval can be issued and then you go on and explain that so that effectively uh

00:28:16 that so that effectively uh is what you've just been explaining to us just now yes um now on its face the phrase and this picks up on the chairman's questioning the phrase full plans

00:28:27 plans does suggest that all plans relating to the works would be submitted to the building control body but is it fair to say that at least in practice that is not normally what happens

00:28:38 happens it is not the normal practice i think if you look

00:28:41 you look at the building notice route you are required to accompany that with a site plan

00:28:48 site plan at a very large small scale rather just to basically to show where the building is and its relationship to other buildings

00:28:59 relationship to other buildings but by virtue of the building notice root you don't actually have to give plans details etc when you do the full plans

00:29:08 plans the term fall i would suggest is not correct

00:29:12 correct in practical terms if you have a project it may be that there are subcontractors who may not even be have been appointed at the time the plans are deposited

00:29:23 at the time the plans are deposited under the building regulations so their details will be some way down the line

00:29:28 the line but the principles of compliance should be established early on and then the details that follow on should then support that compliance

00:29:43 and after a full plans application is made is it right that section 16 of the building act 1984 requires the building control body to accept or reject the deposit of the application

00:29:54 application correct and let's turn at this point to a flow chart that you've included in your report at page 58

00:30:05 58 now in this flow chart you're setting out in detail how the building control process should work

00:30:12 work and i i want to focus for the moment on uh

00:30:15 uh the box right in the middle of the page the

00:30:19 the the white box the lower white box right in that middle column about what checks are done on receipt of the full plans application so we can see the box

00:30:30 plans application so we can see the box before

00:30:31 before is that the applicant makes a full plan submission they have to submit plans in duplicate plus additional copies and supporting details information as necessary to show compliance

00:30:42 necessary to show compliance and then you've got the next box is the checks that the building control body does at that point and you've got that they check the fee is correct is there an applicant acting for the

00:30:53 is there an applicant acting for the owner

00:30:54 owner details of the owner included application is signed and dated if conditional approval has been agreed and if a two-month extension period agreed

00:31:04 agreed now would it be fair to add to that list that the building control body at that stage would be expected to check that sufficiently detailed plans were

00:31:15 that sufficiently detailed plans were included within the application as necessary to show compliance with the building regulations yes if no plans were attached then it would be rejected well it wouldn't be

00:31:27 it would be rejected well it wouldn't be accepted correct yes it would be a fair comment

00:31:30 comment and if plans are attached should there be at least some check at that early stage that those plans are sufficient in terms of establishing the principles as you put

00:31:42 establishing the principles as you put it

00:31:45 i believe your statement's correct in practice

00:31:49 practice it may be an administrative check that there are plans attached to the application um there may not at that stage be a technical review

00:32:00 technical review of the application at all and when you say there might be an administrative check does that mean that it might be administrative offices within the building control body that do the those checks correct and not

00:32:13 do the those checks correct and not necessarily the building control officers or surveyors

00:32:17 surveyors that will be looking at the technical detail further down the line correct although i would add that that administrative officer may have been trained

00:32:26 trained to look at what was coming in and to to establish if it was considered reasonably acceptable i think um can i can i just ask this um would i be right in understanding

00:32:39 um would i be right in understanding that

00:32:40 that when you get a full plans application there are really only two ways well three ways forward one is it's rejected but let's put that on one side the other two are that it contains

00:32:52 the other two are that it contains even at that early stage enough information to demonstrate full compliance with the building regulations in which case it gets passed or some information is missing in which

00:33:05 some information is missing in which case

00:33:06 case it can be the subject of a conditional approval

00:33:10 approval conditional upon subsequent deposition of plans which do show the missing information that's correct the conditional approval has to be agreed by both parties

00:33:22 has to be agreed by both parties if the building control body looks at the application of things this is just no it's just not viable could end up with a thousand conditions then i would suggest they are obliged to

00:33:33 then i would suggest they are obliged to reject it

00:33:34 reject it yes but what i had in mind was your answer to an earlier question that you don't necessarily in fact usually i think uh expect all the information to be present about

00:33:45 present about uh products and so on at the early stage of a full plans uh deposit yes it suggests to me that if that information is not present albeit for good reasons

00:33:56 for good reasons it ought to be the subject of a condition and that the condition ought to require the deposit of plans which do show the relevant products is that right that is correct

00:34:07 is correct but the some applicants do not agree to a conditional approval well in that case they get rejected exactly oh well that's that's how it works yes yes thank you

00:34:18 that's how it works yes yes thank you yes yes it's great now at paragraph 240 of your report on page 60 you explain that after the building control body has undertaken its own evaluation of the plans it then

00:34:30 its own evaluation of the plans it then undertakes a formal statutory consultation with the fire authority yes now we're going to come back to this topic in more detail later but

00:34:41 topic in more detail later but i just at this stage i want you to describe briefly what that process that consultation process with the fire authority involves

00:34:50 once the building control body is generally satisfied with the application

00:35:01 with the application then they would consult the fire brigade

00:35:06 in london there is a specified form which has been agreed between the fire authority and the building control bodies in london to use this particular

00:35:19 bodies in london to use this particular form because it gives the information the brigade needs i'm afraid at one point some authorities were using the fire brigade basically as their means of escape

00:35:30 their means of escape b1 and b5 consultants which is not the role of the fire service they are really just there to give a view of whether the measures are

00:35:41 view of whether the measures are appropriate for the building in use or perhaps to comment on any other particular fire related matter and that can be from

00:35:54 and that can be from a small shop selling highly combustible materials and subject to other regulations or it could be fuel storage plants whereby they would obviously have lots of other met comments as regards

00:36:06 of other met comments as regards fire safety but then the building regulations body would pick out those matters that the fire brigade comment on in relation to the building regulations

00:36:18 regulations and advise the applicant of the other comments the fire brigade had made but the application should not go to the fire service

00:36:29 fire service unless the building control body is satisfied

00:36:32 satisfied that in general principles and subject to any conditions they are satisfied with the proposals yeah so does it follow from that there would have needed to have been some form of technical

00:36:43 have been some form of technical appraisal

00:36:44 appraisal of the application before it goes off to consultation yes definitely

00:36:55 yes definitely now we know and you've already drawn the distinction uh between the full plans and and the alternative to that we know that the alternative is a building notice application

00:37:06 is a building notice application i just want to look at something you say about that on page 160 of your report paragraph 571 now this is in the context of your discussion of the gas riser works at the

00:37:19 discussion of the gas riser works at the tower which we will cover in module three but i just want to focus on the general point that you make here and you say in that paragraph that a building notice is an

00:37:30 building notice is an application that allows works to be carried out without the submission of full plans it is usually adopted for small works and where statutory consultation with the fire authority is not required

00:37:41 the fire authority is not required and by some building control bodies where albeit a building is subject to the order i think there you mean the the 2005

00:37:47 2005 order yes the works have a limited impact on fire safety so is it right that the this building notice requires a much less detailed submission to the building control body

00:38:02 yes and can you just um explain briefly going back to full plans what is the purpose

00:38:10 purpose of the requirement for a more detailed submission for the full plan submission in the context of a project where

00:38:19 where the 2005 order applies

00:38:24 it's to avoid

00:38:29 works being required once the building is occupied it should be the building is safe for upon occupation provided that

00:38:40 for upon occupation provided that the use as described at the full plans remains the same upon occupation

00:38:49 i suppose we could give an example whereby say a warehouse is in fact submitted for building rex application and it's going to be used for the

00:39:00 and it's going to be used for the storage of steel

00:39:03 now it has been that a building control body would have accepted the basis of that application and may have perhaps accepted

00:39:15 and may have perhaps accepted less fire protection than would be normal for a warehouse of that type on the basis it was only going to be used for non-combustible materials to be stored

00:39:25 stored but during the life of the building that building becomes used for um the storage of highly combustible or just general storage

00:39:36 combustible or just general storage whereby additional measures would be appropriate upon the change of the use of the building that's when the the order comes in because the risk assessment must be appropriate

00:39:47 assessment must be appropriate and review the type of use of the building

00:39:51 building in relation to the fire safety measures these days it'd be unusual for a builder control body in my experience to accept the use of

00:40:03 to accept the use of a say a warehouse for one purpose only knowing that the the building regulations and the fire safety measures relate to the building and during the time of its life

00:40:14 and during the time of its life effectively so they should be appropriate for a warehouse yeah i understand now can we look at page 86 of your report now paragraph 273

00:40:27 report now paragraph 273 and you say there building control invoiced ryden for the fee this was paid by check attached to a letter dated the 1st of september 2014 building controlled by letter date of

00:40:38 building controlled by letter date of the fifth of august 2014 acknowledged receipt of the full plans application this acknowledgement of the full plans application in my opinion was the date from which the statutory time limit for a decision began you see that there and and just

00:40:52 began you see that there and and just help us what's the statutory time limit the building control body is obliged to respond to the application within five weeks but if the applicant is agreeable

00:41:04 weeks but if the applicant is agreeable and the building control body is agreeable

00:41:06 agreeable that time limit can be extended to eight weeks two months for a larger project it would be better if the agreement for the two months was agreed

00:41:16 agreed to allow the consultation to take place and the detailed review to take place on the decision yeah now you ultimately conclude in your report

00:41:27 report at paragraph 326 on page 100 if we just look at that briefly

00:41:39 we we can see you say observations were sought outside the statutory time limit in the first sentence the first details of the work received on the 24th of september 2014.

00:41:50 september 2014. it's not possible to have issued a decision within the statutory time limit in my opinion this supports my view that the full plan submission should have been rejected you see that there correct so that's your conclusion yes

00:42:03 correct so that's your conclusion yes now

00:42:03 now mr hoban's evidence when he gave evidence was that he accepted that with hindsight he should have rejected the full plans application due to a lack of supporting documentation but at the time he said he

00:42:16 documentation but at the time he said he was

00:42:16 was quotes trying to work with them um and i i just want to ask you about this

00:42:23 this um but before i do i also want to ask you about something that mr john allen he was the rbkc building control manager what he said in his oral um his witness statement if we can look

00:42:35 um his witness statement if we can look at that this is rbk three zeros three three nine three zero at page three and i want to look at paragraph 14.

00:42:48 and he says mr allen says and i want to pick it up at the second sentence at the end of that first line in recent years with design and build project information often arrived in

00:42:59 project information often arrived in stages throughout the build statutory time limits regarding approval or conditional approval or rejection were not usually adhered to in practice and then in theory if no decision was

00:43:11 and then in theory if no decision was made the application would be quite deemed approved but in reality no applicant

00:43:16 applicant ever took this point so that's the evidence we have of the building control offices

00:43:23 offices and i want to ask you a series of questions about that in your experience is it common for building control officers to disregard the statutory time limit in

00:43:31 limit in that way i've never encountered that before

00:43:35 before never now mr allen refers as we can see there to the design and build model playing a role in that regard um so he's

00:43:47 playing a role in that regard um so he's implying that because it's design and build

00:43:49 build the information comes piecemeal throughout the build um is that your experience that on design and build projects those statutory time limits are routinely not

00:44:00 routinely not uh complied with no not at all it makes no difference whether it's traditional projects for progress or design and build

00:44:09 build there is a point where the apple application full plans application is made

00:44:13 made and the statutory time limits kick in they are statutory yeah in in from mr hoban's comments trying to work with them yes

00:44:25 comments trying to work with them yes everybody every building control body tries to work with their applicants and i suppose the kindest thing you could do would be to bring them up and say

00:44:34 say this this isn't i'm going to have to reject this would you like to withdraw it

00:44:37 it yes but it wasn't done as far as i could make out yeah but you don't think that trying to work with them should ever mean that you accept an

00:44:48 should ever mean that you accept an application within the time limit which in fact

00:44:51 in fact doesn't have the right information attached to it you know it doesn't mean that at all you should it's a statutory obligation yeah now mr allen also

00:45:02 yeah now mr allen also said in his oral evidence for the for the transcript this is day 47 page 169 at line seven he said for larger projects the time just doesn't fit the

00:45:13 the time just doesn't fit the information just isn't available now you've worked on a lot of larger projects and over the course of your career do you agree with that no i don't the

00:45:27 the point at which the full applications would be made will be a point in the design progress whereby

00:45:35 whereby a building in concept has reached the point where it's known what it's going forward as the finer details as to perhaps the finishes the colors

00:45:49 sometimes you can start a project and suddenly the client will want three extra stories on top but there will be a point at which you could go to the building rex application and say i am going to build

00:46:00 application and say i am going to build a building on this site and i am going to do it with design and build but here is the general principle of what we are going forward on by the time you get to design and build my understanding is the concept of that

00:46:12 my understanding is the concept of that building in design is there yeah so you would go forward on that basis if you were going to build a building perhaps out of non-traditional

00:46:25 perhaps out of non-traditional construction and by that i mean something like a hay building or something like that then the discussions would have taken so far ahead of the actual application that the designer would have a good idea

00:46:37 that the designer would have a good idea of what would be acceptable and that would go for really for any big project or any small project that was unusual

00:46:44 unusual yeah now in terms of the consequences of rejecting a full plans application if a building control body decides to reject that full planned application is it right that this doesn't prevent

00:46:55 it right that this doesn't prevent building work from taking place that's correct what are the consequences if someone continues to build once their full plans application has been rejected

00:47:07 been rejected provided that the work complies with the building regulations then there is no consequence the building control body if that building work starts would generally inspect they're not

00:47:20 would generally inspect they're not obliged to inspect but as a contravention can only occur on site

00:47:26 site then uh that was how the contravention would be found and uh notices could be served on the person who's carried out the work that's in contravention to put that work right yeah and if you

00:47:38 to put that work right yeah and if you have your plans for plans rejected you can still submit information to the builder control body for review yeah and receive comments accordingly

00:47:49 yeah and receive comments accordingly yeah

00:47:50 yeah so given all of that what could be the benefit

00:47:54 benefit of passing a full plans application that was incomplete [Music]

00:48:00 [Music] none really because it doesn't give any confidence to the applicant that going forward that they are not going to perform contraventions yeah and presumably if your application were

00:48:12 and presumably if your application were rejected on the ground that it was it didn't contain enough information you could make another one indeed with more information yes yes

00:48:23 now just getting the the framework of how how it works the full plans application comes at the beginning of the process i now want to ask you

00:48:31 ask you just a little bit about what comes at the end and that's the completion certificate yes and if we can look on page 62 of your report or paragraph 252

00:48:44 you tell us there when building control is satisfied that the controllable completed works either works within the scope of the building regulations are compliant the necessary third-party certificates

00:48:55 the necessary third-party certificates have been received and the required fire safety information has been provided to the owner they must issue a completion certificate within eight weeks of being notified of completion of the works

00:49:07 completion of the works now is it fair to say in the light of that part of your evidence that the issuing of a completion certificate by the building control body is its confirmation that it is satisfied that all of the works comply with the

00:49:18 that all of the works comply with the building regulations yes the completion certificate as you may have seen says it shows evidence but not complete evidence of compliance because the

00:49:30 evidence of compliance because the building control body officer is not standing there to look at every single aspect of the work

00:49:37 work yes and that that's the theme of my next question

00:49:41 question so in terms of the purpose of a completion certificate and its significance to what extent is a completion certificate a certification that the works

00:49:49 works do in fact comply with the building regulations

00:49:55 as far as could be ascertained by the building control body yes it it it is what everybody is aiming for a completion certificate yeah but should we draw a distinction between the building control body being

00:50:07 between the building control body being satisfied

00:50:08 satisfied and the works actually complying by virtue of the regulations requiring the completion certificate to have that evidentiary

00:50:20 certificate to have that evidentiary clause within it which says that as far as can be ascertained but shall not be taken as evidence of full compliance to paraphrase it it can only be taken that far yeah

00:50:35 now leaving the specifics of grenfell to one side for the moment can you explain generally how it might come about that a completion certificate could be issued where works did not in fact comply with

00:50:46 where works did not in fact comply with the building regulations

00:50:50 only in as much as the inspections did not reveal the non-compliance but subsequently something happened

00:51:01 something happened that did reveal the non-compliance yeah so maybe part of the building's removed and

00:51:08 and it shows that there's a deficiency in the building which the building control officer didn't see would that be an example

00:51:13 example yeah an extreme example would be a collapse of partial collapse of a building something like that yeah or unfortunately a fire anywhere

00:51:24 now um i don't think we need to turn it up but dr lane says in her report that there are no provisions in the building regulations that give powers to the local authority to prevent

00:51:35 powers to the local authority to prevent the occupation of a building before the issue of a completion certificate or any other time during building work

00:51:45 correct

00:51:48 but i'm sure the local authority if they were particularly concerned would contact the fire service who could put a prohibition notice on on the building or part of the building under the order yes

00:52:00 building under the order yes or if they felt they couldn't for any reason because the order they couldn't use the order to that effect then [Music]

00:52:08 [Music] past experience under different legislation injunctions have been sought for to prevent the occupation of a building that was considered unsafe right yeah i

00:52:20 that was considered unsafe right yeah i see

00:52:21 see yeah but it's right in principle that the absence of a completion certificate doesn't prevent occupation of the building correct now given that a completion certificate does not necessarily mean that the works are

00:52:33 not necessarily mean that the works are in fact compliant and doesn't prevent occupation can you help us as to what the purpose of a completion certificate is for

00:52:44 it finishes the process and it affirms by the building control body as far as they have been able to ascertain that the works do comply yeah

00:52:58 now just a few questions now about um this distinction between local authority building control and approved inspectors as we know your experience shows that you've sat on

00:53:09 your experience shows that you've sat on both sides of the fence or seen it from both perspectives yeah i am also a board member of the registration body of sicare yeah of approved inspector yes

00:53:20 of sicare yeah of approved inspector yes yes exactly so i want to just get you to help us to understand the differences between approved inspectors and local authority building control bodies

00:53:30 bodies now first is it right that local authority building control bodies were required certainly at the time of the grenfell project to be cost neutral that would be dictated by

00:53:43 cost neutral that would be dictated by the authority but that was the intent yes

00:53:46 yes generally yes and did that apply to all local authority building control bodies i couldn't say that was applicable to all experience

00:53:59 all experience shows to me that some authorities used the money from building control for other purposes it wasn't ring fenced and others i believe ran that a loss at

00:54:11 and others i believe ran that a loss at times

00:54:12 times right but the aim would have been just in good

00:54:15 in good basic economics to be cost neutral yeah it was a service a service for safety yes yeah how did that work in practice

00:54:23 practice how would a building control body try and achieve that cost neutrality um it would mean by setting up appropriate fees to cover their costs yeah i see and those fees would be

00:54:35 yeah i see and those fees would be adjusted would they if they felt that their costs were increasing at a particular time i believe that they could have done that yes yes

00:54:45 yes yes in your experience did that present challenges for local authority bodies

00:54:50 um

00:54:54 it was perceived that it did whether it did in fact i don't know the

00:55:02 commercial challenges of attaining the work for a local authority were compounded by

00:55:13 were compounded by the ability of the approved inspector to set their own costs to cover work if that approved inspector's route was adopted

00:55:26 did was there any standardization of fees amongst local authorities or did they just set their own as they thought fit

00:55:32 fit at one time there was a standardization of fees i cannot honestly say at the time of grenfell whether that was in place

00:55:43 um let's have a look now on page 45 of your report paragraph 171 and you tell us there that there were two forms of building control body that could have been employed

00:55:54 could have been employed the local authority or an improved inspector

00:55:57 inspector then as now both bodies carry out the same functions except that the procedure is different for example a full plans application is not required if an approved inspector is employed but

00:56:09 if an approved inspector is employed but the fire service must be consulted an approved inspector has no powers of enforcement if a contravention of the building regulations occurs the regulatory role must revert to the local authority for

00:56:22 must revert to the local authority for enforcement action to be pursued so you're helpfully telling us what the differences are in procedural terms there

00:56:31 so is it right that in contrast to local authority building control bodies approved inspectors operate operate in the private sector they

00:56:44 operate in the private sector they can undertake work basically and deal with building control with the building regulations on any particular building but they are private individuals yes yeah are they

00:56:57 private individuals yes yeah are they operated in your experience so as to make a profit yes is it fair to say that on every project the client will have an option whether to approach an approved inspector

00:57:09 to approach an approved inspector or the local authority to act in relation to a project they can they are required by virtue of their registration which requires them to adhere to a code

00:57:23 which requires them to adhere to a code of conduct that they cannot take on work if they have an interest in the actual project so for instance they cannot do any design aspect or they cannot in fact even be married

00:57:37 or they cannot in fact even be married to somebody who has an interest in the actual project yeah now you say that they carry out the same functions but the process is different

00:57:46 different can you help us how is it different in the context of a full plans application an application to an approved inspector requires the approved inspector to serve on the local authority

00:57:59 to serve on the local authority an initial notice which is either accepted or rejected by the local authority

00:58:04 authority and there are rules set down as to why they can reject and why they can't reject

00:58:10 reject assuming that application the initial notice

00:58:14 notice is accepted by the local authority then as soon as possible after the um initial gnosis is accepted the

00:58:25 initial gnosis is accepted the protocol is that they would contact the fire authority as soon as possible after having reviewed the project they must consult the fire

00:58:36 the project they must consult the fire authority if it's subject to the rro that's approved inspectors must do that yes they must do that um they have to consult the fire authority if they are going to

00:58:48 the fire authority if they are going to issue

00:58:49 issue a plan certificate you can ask an approved inspector to give you a plan certificate whereby they have looked at the plans and are saying yes it complies with the building regulations

00:59:00 regulations subject to conditions perhaps before the approved inspector issues their final certificate in other words the completion certificate they again

00:59:09 again have to consult the fire authority yeah i see

00:59:13 i see so they have to consult at the beginning and at the end yes yeah if you're going to put up a building to which the rro will apply on completion you have to go to the

00:59:24 on completion you have to go to the local authority don't you uh that's my question no no because the process

00:59:31 process i'm just looking back at regulation 12 um

00:59:40 12 um which seemed to suggest 12-2 that you have to deposit full plans with the local authority um i think they may have been amended by

00:59:51 um i think they may have been amended by the approved inspectors regulation so is that the case right it all gets very confusing to be quiet

00:59:57 quiet you can tell yes even after all my years i still get very confused yeah well we can we can check that point can we look now at um on page 45 of your

01:00:09 can we look now at um on page 45 of your report paragraph 172 sorry it's the next paragraph apologies um and there you tell us a local authority building control body was not and is not required to employ

01:00:20 and is not required to employ professionally qualified staff or to be a member of any officially recognized body such as local authority building control labc nor is it required to adhere to the

01:00:31 nor is it required to adhere to the guidance issued by bodies such as the labc or the building control alliance the bca or to submit the annual statistical returns requested by the building control performance

01:00:42 control performance standards group the bc s pag so you've explained to us there a number of things that the local authority building control body

01:00:53 body was not and is not required to do is that situation different with an approved inspector yes the approved inspectors registration

01:01:05 yes the approved inspectors registration is conditional upon compliance with the sick air construction into this council's regulatory body for approved inspectors

01:01:16 regulatory body for approved inspectors to comply with its code of conduct which includes compliance with the bcp sag the building standards group performance standard and

01:01:29 performance standard and failure to comply with that or to adhere to

01:01:35 or they are encouraged to adhere to protocols

01:01:38 protocols issued by such bodies as the building control alliance whereby issues arise because of factors changing over the years where the building control alliance a

01:01:49 where the building control alliance a recognised body which is a combination of approved inspectors and local authority will in fact make recommendations of a way a certain

01:02:00 make recommendations of a way a certain process is dealt with or in fact they will actually give out technical guidance as we know yeah from dealing with grenfell yeah

01:02:10 yeah um so i think you've agreed that that they are subject to the cica ir the construction industry council approved inspectors register code of conduct and accompanying

01:02:21 code of conduct and accompanying guidance notes yes now under that code of conduct is it right that approved inspectors must have quotes robust systems in place to ensure appropriate standards of technical

01:02:33 appropriate standards of technical competency and consistency is achieved across their organization yes i would point out though at the time of the grenfell

01:02:45 of the grenfell full plans application the code of conduct

01:02:49 conduct is not the code of conduct that exists now however the uh aspect of robust systems was in the previous one and is in the current one yeah so under

01:03:01 is in the current one yeah so under whichever regime old or new they've got to have robust systems in place correct to ensure appropriate standards and technical competency correct and is it right that they are obliged to submit annual statistical

01:03:13 obliged to submit annual statistical returns required by the building control performance standards advisory group and that's a subcommittee of the building regulations advisory committee correct and are those statistical

01:03:27 correct and are those statistical returns designed to allow government and the approved inspectors to monitor the service they provide yes now

01:03:37 yes now we know that local authority building control offices are subject to the building control performance standards often um that's shortened to bcp is that correct

01:03:49 that's shortened to bcp is that correct and they are promulgated by that building control performance standards advisory group that's right isn't it correct do those um

01:04:00 same performance standards apply to approved inspectors as well yes the in fact the local authority building control is not obliged to adhere to

01:04:13 is not obliged to adhere to the building control performance standards

01:04:16 standards by virtue of their registration the approved inspectors are i see okay so in terms of the status of those

01:04:29 so in terms of the status of those building control performance standards those bcps um are they guidance or do they have a more special significance they are guidance they are good practice

01:04:40 they are guidance they are good practice they are to benefit the progress of an application through the process of building regulations they are to be hopefully fair to both

01:04:51 they are to be hopefully fair to both sides the applicant and the building control body and an approved inspector by virtue of his registration is obliged to adhere to them adopt them

01:05:04 is obliged to adhere to them adopt them whereas currently a local authority building control body is not obliged

01:05:10 obliged to i see now can we look at what you say at paragraph 178 of your report on page 46

01:05:29 now i'm going to pick it up in there

01:05:33 sixth line down where you say the standards and supporting guidance set out the expected minimum level of performance of a building control body in discharging its duties and

01:05:44 discharging its duties and responsibilities can you see that sentence

01:05:47 sentence i can yeah now in your experience did building control bodies at the time generally understand that those performance standards were the minimum standard

01:05:59 the minimum standard i believe so and were they in fact routinely adopted and complied with by local authority building control bodies at the time of the grenfell refurbishment i believe they were the biggest

01:06:12 i believe they were the biggest objection to by anybody to the bcp sag is the return that had to be done periodically because of the if they didn't have the processes in

01:06:23 if they didn't have the processes in hand it was quite a major project to provide those statistics right yeah in your view so we've looked at the differences

01:06:34 so we've looked at the differences between the two regimes in your view are approved inspectors subject to a more stringent performance regime than local authority building control officers

01:06:43 officers yes approved inspectors are audited every five years or in the first year of their registration to ensure that they are adhering

01:06:53 adhering to the requirements of their registration and off have to reapply every five years for re-registration yeah

01:07:02 now apart from the fact that it's mandatory for approved inspectors to submit compliance data returns whereas it's not mandatory for local authority building control

01:07:13 authority building control departments to do that is it right that the codes and guidance that govern the two regimes are not materially dissimilar correct

01:07:24 at the time of the grenfell project was there any requirement for local authority building control officers to carry out ongoing continuing professional development or cpd

01:07:37 professional development or cpd it would have been and still is a requirement of their professional qualification if they had it and i would have thought and would have

01:07:48 i would have thought and would have expected

01:07:50 expected ongoing cpd to be a part of the regime of the building control body to for their officers to keep up with changes

01:07:59 changes as they came about yeah so you would expect a competent building control

01:08:06 control body to be providing for some continuing professional development for their offices

01:08:13 offices i would have expected although i have seen if i may refer to the job descriptions of the various offices within kensington chelsea

01:08:24 within kensington chelsea at one level they were responsible for their own cpd yes so whether they intentionally put that back to the officers or not

01:08:35 officers or not i couldn't say from what i've seen to date was that common practice to do that no no it would normally be because um heads of local authorities

01:08:46 because um heads of local authorities were informed from government of changes in legislation and changes in the approved documents that information would have come through the um

01:08:56 the um the local authority and should and it didn't always end up on the desk of the building control manager the head of building control and that information would then need to have been disseminated

01:09:07 have been disseminated to all the staff yeah without doing a form of cpd or some form of training i don't know how that would have been done yeah even if it was only a an a4 sheet giving information does it

01:09:18 an a4 sheet giving information does it follow that you don't think it would have been good practice to just let building control officers sort out their own cpd correct

01:09:30 and what about approved inspectors was there any requirement at the time of the grenfell project for approved inspectors to be carrying out ongoing cpd yes yes it's a part as i say part of their

01:09:42 yes it's a part as i say part of their qualification as a professional qualification and also because a level of professionally qualified persons would be required to be running an approved inspector's

01:09:54 to be running an approved inspector's office yeah

01:09:58 is cpd within the building control and approved inspector industry often provided by manufacturers in your experience yes it is do you agree that this may

01:10:10 yes it is do you agree that this may result in a lack of objectivity in the training that's provided and as such is undesirable

01:10:18 yes often it's the only available because of the cost of providing cpd and undertaking cpd but often it is one would hope that internally

01:10:32 one would hope that internally those with experience would be saying to junior members beware this man is trying to sell this product and if they'd heard anything

01:10:42 anything within that presentation that was not quite

01:10:45 quite um as it should be from a building control body point of view to point that out yes to raise it um high flag it up really yeah

01:10:57 high flag it up really yeah now um can we have a look at mr john allen's

01:11:00 allen's witness statement again rbk3033930 at page two and i want to look at paragraph 11.

01:11:13 paragraph 11. and he he makes the point there he says however we were competing with the private market in building control and to try and ensure that rbkc internal projects selected an our building control department

01:11:24 building control department i would meet once a month with the corporate property team to talk about jobs past present and future

01:11:32 future do you see that there yes so in practice our local authority building control services in competition for projects with private sector approved inspectors yes

01:11:43 approved inspectors yes to what extent do you feel that privatization of the market led to a reduction in the quality of the work carried out by building control bodies in my experience i can't say that i've

01:11:55 in my experience i can't say that i've ever seen a lessening of quality right i would hope not because most approved inspectors are trained by local authority or were building control officers in local

01:12:06 building control officers in local authorities yeah

01:12:10 now just a few questions about interaction with other departments um if we can turn to um clg one triple zero six eight one four at page eleven

01:12:24 six eight one four at page eleven now these are the building control performance standards from 2014

01:12:32 and this is standard three which is consultation that's a heading consultation and we can see the standard there is in the green box and it says building

01:12:43 is in the green box and it says building control bodies shall undertake all statutory consultations in a timely manner

01:12:48 manner and the observations of consultees should be communicated in writing to clients

01:12:53 clients it shall also consider the benefit of undertaking additional consultation it shall where appropriate cooperate in an integrated approach relevant to consensus control so we can

01:13:05 relevant to consensus control so we can see that's the performance standard from 2014

01:13:08 2014 about consultation

01:13:14 so it talks there in the first line about undertaking statutory consultations in a timely manner can you just help us what would those statutory consultations be would it be for example with the fire authority

01:13:26 authority um yeah it'd be the fire authority in relation to part b but it would be sewage undertakers etcetera for other aspects of the building control process

01:13:39 the building control process in a timely manner refers to the time limit that an approved inspector has in relation to issuing certain documents and

01:13:51 to issuing certain documents and building control body having the time limit to issue its decision

01:13:58 decision as regards the deposited plans within the five-week time limit or the agreed eight-week time limit

01:14:07 limit effectively i think this is saying if you have a building control application that you need to consult elsewhere with don't leave it till three days before your

01:14:18 days before your mandatory time limit is up because it is only practical it's unreasonable to expect a response yeah and then we can see in the second sentence in that third line down it said

01:14:30 sentence in that third line down it said it shall also consider the benefit of undertaking additional consultation can you help us what might that additional consultation involve

01:14:39 involve um it would be if as the conditional information perhaps was coming into building control

01:14:51 building control or there was an alteration to the project whereby something

01:14:58 something fire related changed and would have particular resonance with perhaps the fire authority it may be that the owner has suddenly just found out that

01:15:10 out that the land on which fire appliances would approach

01:15:15 approach the right of a trust the right to pass over that land has been withdrawn or that the person who owns the land has put up a massive fence or something so the best person to talk to about fire

01:15:28 so the best person to talk to about fire brigade

01:15:29 brigade provisions is the fire brigade so you would go back to them yeah i see is it normal in your experience for additional consultation to take place

01:15:38 place it's not unusual um

01:15:42 there has been a problem in the past with

01:15:46 with delays on consultations with certain fire authorities simply because they are overburdened with

01:15:53 with work in all sorts of aspects yeah and then finally we can see in that last sentence it says it shall wear appropriate cooperate in an integrated approach to consent relevant to development control now

01:16:06 relevant to development control now would it be fair to say that this section envisages coordination between different local authority bodies that are responsible for giving consent in relation to any given development

01:16:18 in relation to any given development that would be the aim unfortunately it doesn't always work um the two they're always spoken about are planning and building control yeah um some authorities those

01:16:30 yeah um some authorities those departments will generally the building control department is within the planning development department but not always but generally in my experience there's vest very little

01:16:43 vest very little integration of the departments there was a time

01:16:47 a time in days of austerity proposal for building control bodies to actually check planning requirements but i don't think that went very far in my

01:16:58 i don't think that went very far in my experience anyway but i do know of some planning authorities if they have an unusual um planning application we'll talk to

01:17:09 um planning application we'll talk to building control to see if it's even viable or perhaps they'd like to see something in that planning application yeah that's unusual and would it be viable under a building rex

01:17:21 rex application in practice what sort of interaction would you expect to see between the building control department and the planning department in a local authority

01:17:33 minimal if or generally none

01:17:37 but what would be good practice if good practices were being followed i mean it says here you've got to cooperate in an integrated approach to consent

01:17:48 consent a good problem um well i don't know some authorities have sort of monthly meetings between the various department sections

01:17:59 between the various department sections um

01:17:59 um and it would be perhaps for a planner say to flag up in front of the building control head this rather large development or the unusual development that's coming ahead

01:18:10 unusual development that's coming ahead um to say you know can you would you care to give an opinion on it yeah

01:18:17 would that ever include information sharing

01:18:21 sharing and if so what kind of information would you expect the two to share i can't think where that information has been shared

01:18:33 been shared it's to be quite blunt post the fire before it has occurred pre the fire very rare unless it was an unusual development

01:18:44 unusual development yeah you tell us this is paragraph 262 of your report on page 67 that there's no indication in this case that there was any interaction between rbkc

01:18:55 was any interaction between rbkc building control and the rbkc planning department um would you have expected to have seen any interaction in terms of at that time no no

01:19:07 in terms of at that time no no are you critical of this lack of interaction

01:19:15 the planning aspect is different to the building regulations aspect

01:19:23 aspect building regulations are not concerned with

01:19:26 with the color the landscaping outside etc and the impact generally on the area the building control aspect is the technical aspect

01:19:37 control aspect is the technical aspect of the actual building yeah mr chairman i think that's a very good moment for our morning break yes all right thank you very much well mrs we're going to have a break now we have a break

01:19:48 a break morning and afternoon so we'll take it now we'll

01:19:52 now we'll uh resume 20 to 12 please and um i think i better say the same to you as i've said to all the other witnesses please don't talk about your evidence to anyone while you're out of the room thank you

01:20:04 while you're out of the room thank you very much all right would you like to give the usher thank you

01:20:14 all right thank you 2012 please

01:39:05 would you ask mr smith to come back in please okay

01:39:21 all right mrs mintz is ready to carry on i am thank you thank you screens yes miss memphis thank you just to pick up on a couple of points from this morning's evidence um we were talking just before the break

01:39:32 um we were talking just before the break about

01:39:33 about uh the potential for interaction between a building control department and a planning department and you've explained that that certainly wasn't your experience certainly pre-fire um but can you give us any good examples

01:39:46 um but can you give us any good examples of where you've been aware of interaction occurring between a planning department and a building control department

01:39:56 to be quite honest uh no and subsequent to the fire yeah um if they've had towel blocks i am aware certainly of one local

01:40:09 am aware certainly of one local authority who was putting tall blocks in front of building control at the planning stage but apart from that um other than say a large shopping mall or something like

01:40:21 large shopping mall or something like that there would be some interaction okay um and then on the cost neutrality point um were you aware um that there was a requirement on local authorities

01:40:32 requirement on local authorities a national requirement to be cost neutral

01:40:35 neutral i knew there was at some stage i wasn't i am not sure if that's current i'd have to defer that to others can i just take you to a document on this it says rbk3059036

01:40:48 this it says rbk3059036 this is a a dclg um

01:40:54 circular date of the 25th of february 2010

01:40:59 2010 to local authorities about the building local authority charges regulations 2010 and if we go on to page 10 and look at paragraph 33

01:41:11 we can see there it says under the 2010 regulations local authorities are required to set their charges with the aim of

01:41:18 aim of achieving the overriding objective of ensuring that and then it effectively describes

01:41:23 describes being cost neutral do you see that there i do

01:41:26 i do yes yeah um and we can see that's from 25th of february 2010.

01:41:34 now some questions now about the role of building control and their function

01:41:42 if we can turn within your report bmer 604

01:41:47 604 page 12 and look at paragraph 52 now

01:41:53 and you say there it is important to recognize that the role of a building control body is only to check for compliance with the requirements of the building act and the building regulations the building control body has no role

01:42:05 building control body has no role in the design it checks submitted proposals and inspects works on site to ascertain

01:42:11 ascertain compliance so is it fair to say that what you're doing there is drawing a distinction between assessing designs that have been produced by others and having input into the design

01:42:22 others and having input into the design itself

01:42:24 itself yes there's always been this question of when a building control body

01:42:31 body enters into discussion pre-application um with a design team by virtue of saying

01:42:38 saying no that won't comply but if you do this x y and z it will comply is that design i don't think it is because

01:42:47 because you're not producing anything to say there's a design that i've i prefer or anything as such yeah um but it the analogy with an approved

01:42:58 but it the analogy with an approved inspector is that they cannot have any um other role on a project at all and a building control body should not be involved in that project other than to check it's

01:43:09 in that project other than to check it's not it's not their role at all yeah now i'd like to look at mister

01:43:13 mister john allen just to clarify it sounds from that as if you take the view that good practice would prevent the building control body from giving

01:43:24 control body from giving advice about what would or wouldn't comply

01:43:27 comply um to be quite frank it makes life easier for everybody if that device is given and that device that guidance is sought and at one time

01:43:38 that guidance is sought and at one time it was actively encouraged by all the bodies concerned on the

01:43:42 on the regulatory side in as much to be it was even termed to become part of the design team but you have to be very careful that you are not designing because that's subject to all

01:43:54 designing because that's subject to all sorts of

01:43:55 sorts of other rules and regulations and it's not your role you can't check your own homework yes now picking up on exactly that point i want to take you to something that mr john allen said in his evidence if we

01:44:07 mr john allen said in his evidence if we can go to day 47 page 90 and pick it up at line 18.

01:44:23 and just picking up the second half of miss grogan's question there at line 20 she says do you agree that a building control body has no role in design and he says this not necessarily because

01:44:35 and he says this not necessarily because there was a very not design because it's for the people to obviously design the project but many years ago it was very much about that doesn't comply reject it it's not

01:44:46 that doesn't comply reject it it's not good enough and then we go on and then he says and just but very much now it's

01:44:53 now it's more about being part of it's about being part of the team as well and it may be looking at options and suggestions now pausing there would you agree that

01:45:05 now pausing there would you agree that the role of a building control body has changed so that now the building control body is part of the team described by mr allen

01:45:16 part of the team described by mr allen don't think it's new that it would be part of the team but you are not part of the team in as much as you sit down at the design team meetings and contribute design

01:45:27 contribute design options they are put to you and you might say

01:45:32 might say that door needs to be there but apart from that it would be a case of um i don't particularly think that complies you need to justify that

01:45:43 need to justify that yeah and you can talk about the justification that they present to you but it's certainly you're not doing any design

01:45:51 design the implications of it being a building a job body doing design and bringing in the cdm regs and the consequences because it could come back to you and say you suggested this

01:46:02 say you suggested this and the consequences of it were yeah not as desired shall we say yeah yeah but you're not paid to be a designer you're not paid to do that yeah let's just look

01:46:15 paid to do that yeah let's just look a little bit more about what mr allen says because this will i think draw out some of the distinctions you're making he says if we look at line three the end of line three at the top there he says so

01:46:26 three at the top there he says so typically plans might be marked up with suggestions for them to take forward you're not designing it because you definitely can't design but you would try and be slightly more helpful than that

01:46:38 helpful than that rather than just say it doesn't comply just give perhaps some guidance to them to help them comply it's not a rejection culture you know you're trying to help people build in accordance with the building

01:46:49 in accordance with the building regulations i hasten to add i see that there now just taking some of the

01:46:55 the examples he's referring to there to what extent do you agree with him that a building control officer could mark up drawings with suggestions for them to take forward but still avoid

01:47:06 them to take forward but still avoid encroaching into a design role

01:47:11 i don't know apart from this particular body that actually marks up any drawings you might sit and point at a drawing at

01:47:22 you might sit and point at a drawing at a meeting

01:47:25 or you might try and illustrate by a very rough sketch and a very poor sketch it would have been in my case as to what you were trying to explain to them

01:47:35 them but i would never and i know of no other body

01:47:38 body that says if you do it like this i've drawn it out for you it'll be okay i don't know of any other body that does that so does that mean what you saw on the grenfell project in terms of

01:47:49 the grenfell project in terms of building control offices sometimes marking up designs that that was completely outside your experience previously it was and to be quite honest it looked like

01:47:59 like what was done at middlesex house which is the old building regulation division of the glc in relation to the fire precautions act we would issue drawings that were marked up in separate colours

01:48:10 up in separate colours etcetera i see yeah do you agree with his concern about any rejection culture

01:48:21 it's not the aim to reject plans unless they show a non-compliance and the aim is to end up with a building that has

01:48:30 that has a reasonable and adequate level of safety

01:48:34 safety nobody goes out just to reject things willy-nilly shall we say they have to have good cause to reject but there are statutory obligations and statutory time limits within which you

01:48:45 statutory time limits within which you have to work yeah yeah

01:48:49 yeah yeah now i want also to take can i just ask this

01:48:53 this um the question whether someone is designing or not might the answer to that question might depend on the purpose of which is asked but is it your evidence that building

01:49:05 is it your evidence that building controlled bodies building control surveyors don't understand themselves generally to being to be involved in design is that correct they they are told not to yeah yeah and

01:49:17 they they are told not to yeah yeah and they don't think they're doing it

01:49:21 i've never heard one say i'm part of the design team i do this as part of the design you are there to check somebody else's work not to add your design in

01:49:32 not to add your design in yeah thank you we're going to come on in a minute to look at what you've said about

01:49:36 about um mr hansen in your report because you've said in your report that you think he wrongly took it upon himself to effectively redesign parts of the fire strategy in terms of smoke control

01:49:49 fire strategy in terms of smoke control i'm going to take you to that in just a moment before i do i just want to look at some of the evidence that was given about the role of building control by um starting with some of the ryden witnesses

01:50:00 witnesses if we can look at day 23 page 77 line two this is mr simon lawrence's evidence he was the contract manager for ryden

01:50:11 ryden and he was being asked about how he saw the building control role and if we pick it up at line two

01:50:22 um he said he's asked the question was it your understanding that building control was there basically as your complete safety net and then he says this not as a complete safety net because we've got a design

01:50:33 safety net because we've got a design team that should be designing in accordance with the regulations and compliance but building control is there to ensure that we do that and they check the plans that we do

01:50:45 and they check the plans that we do now in your opinion to what extent is it fair to describe building control as any kind of safety net

01:50:53 the only safety net i would suggest it would be for the general public in as much as it was effectively is a third level review

01:51:03 but as building control is not there at every single stage of the construction it cannot be seen as a complete safety net at

01:51:14 net at all right and to be fair that mr lawrence doesn't say it's a complete safety net no that's true um but he's saying that they're there to ensure that we do that and they check

01:51:25 ensure that we do that and they check the plans that we do that would you agree with that if they have plans to check yes and if we look at what he said when pressed a little bit further on this

01:51:36 pressed a little bit further on this issue if we look um at page 114 line 20

01:51:47 uh actually let's pick it up at 15 there's the question posed so you might expect them to pick up any non-compliances but is it really right mr lawrence to say that ryden were relying on them as

01:51:58 say that ryden were relying on them as if they were part of the subcontractor chain

01:52:00 chain providing you with a service and then mr lawrence says this um well they were providing us with a service

01:52:09 service do you see that there yes and then he goes on

01:52:16 goes on and then he's asked mr miller is that how you saw it at the time yes because we were paying for them to check compliance against the building regs

01:52:24 regs and then check the works that was installed

01:52:27 installed do you see that there now in your opinion to what extent is it fair to describe building control as providing a service

01:52:34 service in the context of say a design and build contract like this

01:52:40 it is a service it's a building control service

01:52:44 service but it is only to check as a safeguard against what is being proposed it is a service and they are being paid

01:52:56 it is a service and they are being paid but it's not the same as being part of a design team with the profit-making aspect and the need to satisfy the client it's i'd always say they were standing

01:53:07 it's i'd always say they were standing off from the design team overviewing what was put to them and they they have no other role in that design team but it's fair to say they

01:53:18 design team but it's fair to say they were paying for a service yes yeah now finally in the context of mr lawrence's evidence if we can go back and look at page 74 and pick it up sorry sorry to keep writing in but

01:53:29 writing in but you made it in answer to an earlier question you said that they were the third line of protection for the public and one might ask the question although they're providing a service to

01:53:40 although they're providing a service to whom are they providing a service is it the public or the contractor they are providing a service in the context of whoever i would suggest

01:53:51 suggest is making the submission for the full plans application but their role is to ensure there is a minimum level of

01:54:04 ensure there is a minimum level of safety for anybody who is in or about that building and that will be the public or the occupants or ever thank you yeah thank you

01:54:16 now if we can look at page 74 now of mr lawrence's evidence and this was in the context of appointing x over he was asked why it wasn't important to him to put in place

01:54:28 him to put in place a fire safety strategy even if only for the lower four floors to ensure that the resource was reliably there on a clear basis for studio e to use or for you to use

01:54:39 use or for you to use we can see that question at the top of that page

01:54:44 that page and we can see his answer at line eight so he says we thought we had a resource with building control

01:54:53 yes and then the question building control isn't a resource is it not in the sense that you contract it in well we pay for their service to check the compliance and provide advice regarding

01:55:03 regarding the regulations so we can see that there in your view to what extent can a contractor reasonably rely on building control

01:55:12 control to fill the role that might otherwise be filled by say a specialist fire consultant they can't because the input from the fire consultant would be much higher

01:55:25 fire consultant would be much higher than the building control and may influence the design to the point where it could be taken as design although most fire engineers would say they are not subject to

01:55:36 they are not subject to the cdn but depends on the role they're contracted with but i don't think they should put a reliance on it it's certainly it's certainly not the role of a building controlled body

01:55:47 building controlled body to act as the fire consultant on a project

01:55:51 project yeah um

01:55:54 yeah um and can i look on on this theme at something said in mr soon's witness statement

01:55:58 statement now this is sca3014273 at page 43 and i want to look at paragraph 91.

01:56:14 paragraph 91. and i want to pick it up just the last look at the last four lines of that paragraph at the top of that page he says although we had x over to advise on some such points my understanding was that the ultimate

01:56:25 my understanding was that the ultimate decision as to whether something complied with the building regulations 2010 was with building control do you see that there correct yes and the same question i mean to what extent can an

01:56:34 can an architect reasonably rely on building control to fill the role that might otherwise be filled by a specialist fire consultant account i don't believe it can um

01:56:46 account i don't believe it can um building control is checking a proposal that should be complying with the building regulations yeah is not a case of

01:56:57 yeah is not a case of an architect or anybody puts forward proposals

01:57:00 proposals and then expects building control to say it's wrong but if you do this it'll be okay

01:57:05 okay that's not the role yeah do you think that that it was a known phenomenon in the building industry back in 2012 to 2016 the time of the

01:57:16 back in 2012 to 2016 the time of the grenfell project that there was a lack of clarity about the

01:57:20 the the proper role of building control do you think that in the industry some people

01:57:27 people had an inaccurate expectation of what building control were doing on projects not in the period you've

01:57:38 on projects not in the period you've um described earlier much earlier than that i would have said there was yeah and in non-urban situations perhaps

01:57:50 in non-urban situations perhaps even more so but certainly in london i think by that time following several fires the role was quite

01:57:58 quite clear and that was clearly understood by say design and build contractors i would have thought so yes

01:58:09 now um i said we'd look at it i want to look now at what you've said about building control's response to the proposed smoke ventilation system solution if we go um

01:58:20 system solution if we go um and look at page 89 of your report and i want to pick up at what you say at paragraphs 289 and 290. now just to be clear the smoke ventilation system is going to be the subject of in-depth analysis at module 3 of the

01:58:33 in-depth analysis at module 3 of the inquiry

01:58:34 inquiry so we're not going to discuss it in detail here but i'd like to ask you about those paragraphs in terms of what it's saying about your view of the building control

01:58:46 your view of the building control function in this in this case so you say at 289 the annotation on the plans is detailed and extensive that's the annotation by building control isn't it by mr hansen

01:58:57 building control isn't it by mr hansen yes this response is far more than i would have expected from a building control

01:59:01 control body in my opinion the extent of the non-compliant issues was significant in a number

01:59:07 a number and the application should have been rejected alternatively the applicant should have been encouraged to withdraw the application and resubmit following a review of the proposals by their fire safety

01:59:18 of the proposals by their fire safety consultant and then you go on in the next paragraph in my opinion paul hansen wrongly took it

01:59:23 it upon himself to effectively redesign the fire strategy this is not specifically precluded in legislation for local authority building control

01:59:31 control but the role of a building control body is to check for compliance it is possible that such annotation could have been considered as design under the cdm regulations which was not the role of the building control

01:59:43 was not the role of the building control body

01:59:44 body it is noteworthy that approved inspector regulations prohibit their involvement in design work in which they have a role as

01:59:51 as a building control body now could you just help us as to what it was about that example that led you to conclude that mr hansen had gone beyond the proper role of a building control

02:00:03 the proper role of a building control inspector or officer he stated in his comments that the proposals were unacceptable and then he marked up drawings um

02:00:14 and then he marked up drawings um with notes and lines of annotation which said if you do it like this it'll be okay right and in your view that goes too far does it that oversteps the line in terms of

02:00:25 it that oversteps the line in terms of the proper function of building control yes for the extent it was done definitely and i think we may have covered this but just for clarity in your experience is that common in the industry or is that

02:00:37 that common in the industry or is that rare rare never seen it before

02:00:42 and at the end of paragraph 290 we can see that you've said it's note whether the approved inspector regulators prohibit prohibit their involvement in design work so do we take it from that that there is

02:00:53 so do we take it from that that there is no equivalent prohibition on local authority building control inspectors correct just to say that the improved inspectors regulations prohibit it for all but such as a loft conversion

02:01:05 for all but such as a loft conversion or a small extension on a house something like that miner works and can you help us as to the rationale behind that distinction do you know why it is that for approved

02:01:16 do you know why it is that for approved inspectors they are expressly prohibited from being involved in design whereas we don't see the same with local authorities

02:01:26 it is likely that not likely it does exist where approved an approved inspector is within a larger organization that

02:01:38 is within a larger organization that provides other construction regimes such as design thermal efficiency etc so it's to make that distinction within

02:01:49 distinction within an entity you have this role as a building inspector an approved inspector and that is totally independent of any other and again it's marking your own homework

02:02:00 and again it's marking your own homework but it's probably also a result of history and learning from lessons

02:02:08 lessons as it's gone along and the legislation perhaps for local authorities never kept up

02:02:13 up with that for the improved inspector yes i see thank you now in terms of standards to be inspected of building control offices and

02:02:22 and approved inspectors can we just return to paragraph 172 of your report on page 45 which we looked at earlier

02:02:34 so we can see you say there that the local authority building control body was not and is not required to employ a professionally qualified staff or be a member of any officially recognized body such as the labc nor is it required to

02:02:46 such as the labc nor is it required to adhere to the guidance issued by bodies such as labc or the building control alliance the bca or submit statistical returns is it also right that officers who work

02:02:57 is it also right that officers who work for the local authority building control bodies are not required to be members of a professional body correct

02:03:06 they are not required it may be stipulated in the job descriptions because

02:03:10 because it is thought that they should have and such as the labc

02:03:18 labc um the local authority building control overseeing group body shall we say um i believe it's now in their code of conduct but i can't

02:03:28 can't actually state that it is in their code of conduct currently yeah and when you say nor is it required to adhere to the guidance issued by bodies such as the labc or the bca

02:03:39 such as the labc or the bca um what do you mean by that do you mean that

02:03:42 that there's no obligation for them to even be aware of that guidance or is that correct yeah right

02:03:51 so i'm now going to ask you some questions about the standards to be expected of a building control officer and when i ask these questions i'd like to answer by reference to the standards of a reasonably competent building control inspect

02:04:03 building control inspect officer now in terms of the building regulations and the guidance in approved document b would you expect a building control officer to be able to deal with any issues

02:04:13 issues under b4 that come up on a building project without specialist assistance in respect to b4 yes no can you explain why you say that

02:04:26 no can you explain why you say that um aid the construction of the walls may be new

02:04:31 be new to that person they may not be familiar with it it may be incorporating materials

02:04:36 materials that are new to the market or a combination of materials that have not been used before and as regards the space separation aspect

02:04:47 aspect it's quite complicated to understand until it's explained and with existing buildings it can be not daunting but it can be again as i say complicated when you get into the

02:04:59 say complicated when you get into the notion

02:05:00 notion of sorry you get into the realms of a notional boundary becoming a relevant boundary

02:05:04 boundary relative to space separation and the like i see and if a building control officer came across those new issues of you've described it with an external wall

02:05:15 an external wall what kind of specialist assistants would you expect them to be seeking i would expect them to go up their line management the senior officers may have that

02:05:26 the senior officers may have that experience and if it goes right the way through and that experience is not available within the department it may be in the case of a london borough they would go to the london district

02:05:38 they would go to the london district surveyors association with all the members of the association of

02:05:43 of the greater london area to see if they have any experience if not they would then they should in my opinion look outside to a specialist body such as the

02:05:55 outside to a specialist body such as the building research establishment or one of the larger fire engineering practices for comment so i think what you're saying is there are plenty of avenues that you can go to for specialist assistance and support if

02:06:08 for specialist assistance and support if you identify that that is required yes now notwithstanding whether a building control officer was required to adhere to industry guidance what general awareness would

02:06:19 guidance what general awareness would you expect a building control officer to have

02:06:21 have of guidance documents produced by for example

02:06:25 example bodies like the labc or the building control alliance the bca i would expect them to have an awareness labc documents by virtue of

02:06:36 labc documents by virtue of usually the head of department going to their meetings and then disseminating the information he's gathered by virtue of being on the say the labc mailing list uh it may not gone right

02:06:48 mailing list uh it may not gone right down to the most junior member but it certainly i would have thought would have gone to the senior members who would then disseminate and being made of similarly being made of

02:06:57 of the building control alliance where their documents are available online so once being told there is information out there

02:07:05 out there they people would know where to look

02:07:10 now in terms of familiarity with industry guidance you've covered some of the available industry guidance in your report

02:07:17 report and i'm going to highlight some passages within that and ask you some questions about

02:07:20 about it um so br135 we know is expressly referred to in paragraph 12.5 of approved document b and you say in your report at paragraph

02:07:32 and you say in your report at paragraph 310 on page 97 that both john hoban and paul hansen should have been familiar with br135 is that right by virtue of it being in the approved document yes yeah

02:07:44 document yes yeah mr hoban's evidence was that he was aware of it having been referred to in the approved document but had never read it

02:07:51 it for the transcript that's day 45 page 53 lines 1 to 13. would you expect a reasonably competent building control officer to have read br 135

02:08:02 br 135 [Music]

02:08:06 if they had not had a job that involved it

02:08:10 it i can imagine that some would not have read it

02:08:13 read it but if they get a job which is an overcladding project which squarely requires them to consider b4 in those circumstances would you have expected them to have read it

02:08:25 expected them to have read it yes unless they had been told it was compliant by another means but as we know there was no information yeah and read it in full they should have read all of that guidance yes

02:08:37 have read all of that guidance yes would you expect officers to receive training on what br 135 says and how to apply it

02:08:48 in honesty i don't think could expect that they'd all had training

02:08:55 training i would have expected they weren't familiar with it they would speak to a senior officer who hopefully would have that experience or

02:09:05 or refer again out the line but once you read it

02:09:08 read it it's not it's not that difficult but it's very easy for me to say it's not that difficult because i'm trained in fire safety yes but a general building control officer may

02:09:19 officer may find it difficult particularly as regards

02:09:22 regards the classification of materials as regards

02:09:27 regards non-combustible

02:09:31 classo etc they do get confused when and so if they've not been trained in it

02:09:38 in it had not had it explained to them it is easy for them to get confused yes so would does that follow then that you would expect any building control officer who was dealing with those issues to have had some specific

02:09:49 issues to have had some specific training in it or if not to at least recognize he hadn't had that training and escalate it yes training can be self instigated

02:10:02 self instigated and there's a lot of information available

02:10:05 available a lot of bre documents that assist in these matters yeah now

02:10:12 yeah now even if a building control officer hadn't read br135 would you expect them to be aware of the substance of various warnings that it gives about external fire spread and the use

02:10:23 about external fire spread and the use of certain materials in cladding systems

02:10:27 if they'd not read it

02:10:31 probably not but the approved document indicates what those walls should be of and the terminology is reflected in both

02:10:42 and the terminology is reflected in both documents

02:10:42 documents yeah so they i think what you're saying is they they should have picked up at least an awareness of the issues from just to prove document b itself yes yeah we know that there are

02:10:54 itself yes yeah we know that there are various specific warnings within br135 for example there's a warning about

02:10:59 about metal panels metal panels may melt and fall off and generate molten debris is that a general matter that you would have expected building control officers to have been

02:11:09 have been aware of at the time of the grenfell project

02:11:13 project yes in as much they should be aware of certain metals have um a low melting point yeah yep aluminium

02:11:25 yeah yep aluminium and what about there's a there's a very specific warning in the third edition of br135

02:11:31 br135 in 2013 about the proliferation of new and innovative materials and in increased volumes of combustible material being used in external cladding applications would you have expected

02:11:43 applications would you have expected building control officers to have been generally aware of uh that proliferation of new materials

02:11:54 generally aware

02:11:58 is hard to say but by virtue of dealing with materials in all aspects of building they should have been aware of those that were highly combustible yes

02:12:10 highly combustible yes and what about being aware that products that have a good surface spread of flame may still have the potential to create falling debris and indeed themselves contribute to the

02:12:21 indeed themselves contribute to the overall fire load they should know about that but as i say there seems to be an ongoing confusion as to what class

02:12:32 an ongoing confusion as to what class oh specifically as people would have been more familiar with um meant or means in terms of external walls and

02:12:41 walls and some people believe that class o means it's non-combustible which it certainly doesn't

02:12:45 doesn't no no would you have expected a competent building control officer at the time

02:12:49 the time to be aware that class naught doesn't mean non-combustible yes i would now bca the building control alliance technical guidance note 18 is another

02:13:01 technical guidance note 18 is another piece of industry guidance that's referred to in your report and you refer to both issue naught and issue one uh one was dated i think july 14 and one july 15

02:13:13 i think july 14 and one july 15 maybe june in your report would you expect a reasonably competent building control officer to have been familiar with the contents of that guidance that bca guidance

02:13:25 guidance that bca guidance the familiarity with bca a lot of documents i feel would come via their management structure

02:13:33 structure and whether they that management structure

02:13:37 structure by virtue of its labc connections would have disseminated the information through

02:13:44 through so would a reasonably competent building control department have made sure that those pieces of guidance were properly disseminated down to building control offices yes i

02:13:56 to building control offices yes i certainly believe they should have yes

02:14:00 would you have expected building control officers to have had their attention drawn to it when it was first issued in 2014 and again when updated in 2015

02:14:11 yes and would you have expected them to have received any training on what that technical guidance note says and how to apply it

02:14:20 apply it experience would suggest it would not have happened in all building control departments

02:14:29 for reasons of lack of time lack of money all sorts of reasons but unfortunately i don't think that would be the case no

02:14:41 be the case no so you don't think they would be aware would a reasonably competent building control

02:14:48 control department have provided some training on how to apply that guidance

02:14:57 i can't say that i would expect all building control bodies to have provided that training because such materials and such developments

02:15:09 developments do not occur throughout the country but one where

02:15:13 one where such as london one would have hoped it would have been the case would you have expected building control officers to have been aware that there was specialist guidance for example on external wall

02:15:25 for example on external wall applications and to have known that they ought to have escalated the matter were they to face a b4 issue yes yes

02:15:41 now if we can turn to mr hyatt's report at this point this is p h y r six zeros four and i want to look uh first at what he says at page one two

02:15:52 says at page one two four

02:15:55 um so there paragraph four point four point seven

02:16:02 seven he's he says as with the cwct i know the building control alliance issues regular bulletins and papers on construction related issues

02:16:13 related issues it also produces practical guidance for designers

02:16:17 designers and then he says amongst which was bca technical guidance note 18 which although its title suggests otherwise

02:16:24 otherwise deals expressly with approved document b 2

02:16:27 2 paragraph 12.7 in terms of all the elements of the clouding system including insulation and then the june 2015 version and it goes on about what that says and then if we look over the page

02:16:40 says and then if we look over the page at 4.4.79

02:16:45 he's explained in the previous paragraph uh that he wouldn't have expected an architect a specialist cladding contractor or rain screen contractor to be aware of those advices and circulars but he says uh i would certainly expect

02:16:57 but he says uh i would certainly expect a building control department either through direct membership of the bca or indirectly through their membership of the labc to be properly informed of such advice now is that

02:17:08 informed of such advice now is that consistent with your opinion i would agree with the regarding the building control department yeah um i'm not asking you about the

02:17:17 about the the other because that's outside your area of expertise yeah um but then he says this at 4.4.79 he says i also take the view that if a building control department or officer within such a department

02:17:29 within such a department becomes responsible for such a cladding system on a project in circumstances where previous experience is lacking then it that person should make full use of the information available at the bca so as to be able to in a

02:17:42 at the bca so as to be able to in a properly informed manner discharge statutory duties effectively now do you agree with that statement there yes yes yes i do thank you

02:17:54 now you've also referred to the cwct guidance in your report this is at paragraphs 144-146 for the transcript on

02:18:06 paragraphs 144-146 for the transcript on page 40

02:18:07 page 40 and you've said that in your experience these documents have not been used by a building control body in relation to compliance with part b of the building regulations that's right isn't it

02:18:16 isn't it in my experience now we know that some of the available cwct guidance

02:18:23 guidance was referred to in the nbs specification for this project in the as part of the employer's requirements um although to note the the oral evidence we've heard from mr hoban was that he didn't

02:18:34 heard from mr hoban was that he didn't recall having seen the nbs specification now as to that on a project such as the grenfell project is the nbs specification which is

02:18:45 is the nbs specification which is effectively the employer's requirements for how the building is to be built and the materials to be used is that something you would expect a building control officer to be provided with

02:18:56 with no the employer's requirements are information for the design team to produce something that fits those requirements but also fits the building regulations yeah

02:19:09 fits the building regulations yeah [Music]

02:19:11 [Music] now we know though that the the drawings produced

02:19:15 produced say by studio e um on the grenfell project

02:19:18 project do cross refer to paragraphs in the mbs specification if i can just look at an example of that if we can bring up the offline version of sca402499

02:19:41 and if i for these purposes let's just look at the proposed section typical bay in the top right hand section of this drawing if we can blow that up as much

02:19:52 drawing if we can blow that up as much as possible great and then go to the thank you so here we can see these are some of the studio e drawings some of which we know were provided to building control and they have little

02:20:03 building control and they have little labels on them leading out to bubbles on the side where we see for example p10 or we see h92 or l10

02:20:14 or we see h92 or l10 now would you reasonably expect a building control officer to follow that up and and ask um about what that meant if for example something wasn't clear on

02:20:26 if for example something wasn't clear on the drawing about the materials to be used

02:20:29 used yes would expect to inquire what it meant

02:20:33 meant if there was if there was not adequate written explanation so if for example there was a bubble and it said

02:20:41 it said thermal insulation and it said h92 clause 776 and it didn't tell you what type of insulation was going to be used would you expect a building control

02:20:53 would you expect a building control officer to notice that and say tell me what's the insulation you're using for this product for this project yes and if i was referred to the mbs i would say no thank you you tell me

02:21:05 i would say no thank you you tell me what it says yeah so we know the nbs is a long document you you wouldn't even expect us to ever see any

02:21:11 see any extracts from it you would just expect to be told what was in it yes i mean i wouldn't object to receiving an extract from it if it gave me the information i required yeah

02:21:22 gave me the information i required yeah i mean you can go and look up the mbs but the actual contracted conditions may vary that nbs yeah standard yeah but i think what you're saying is you would expect a

02:21:33 you're saying is you would expect a building control officer to look carefully at these drawings

02:21:37 drawings to satisfy himself for example that he knew exactly what materials were being used

02:21:41 used in that external wall construction and around the windows yes

02:21:51 now just carrying on with this theme of industry guidance mr allen's evidence was that the building regulations and approved document b are enough for the purpose of a building controlled surveyor

02:22:02 controlled surveyor and they don't need as a general rule to go looking at industry guidance documents he said that day 47

02:22:09 day 47 page 40 lines 4 to 13. now do you agree with that no the approved document gives the substance of what's required

02:22:21 gives the substance of what's required by the building regulations for

02:22:25 normal we'll call them normal type buildings it doesn't address innovation and it's not the role of a building control body to refuse everything just because it's not covered by

02:22:36 because it's not covered by approved document b yeah so yes i would expect them to go look elsewhere or to ask for justification why on what that justification was based

02:22:48 why on what that justification was based yeah

02:22:50 yeah would you expect a reasonably competent building control officer to be aware of previous fires involving external cladding facades on high-rise residential buildings yes so for example we've got noseley

02:23:03 yes so for example we've got noseley heights in 1991. yes it would initially it would come probably by a press tv et cetera and to be quite honest the

02:23:14 et cetera and to be quite honest the first thing they probably thought was i hope it's not one of mine because that's just a normal reaction yeah but they would expect it to be if it didn't resonate or currently on

02:23:25 if it didn't resonate or currently on the jobs they were doing it should perhaps have flagged up something in the future but unless it was a something particularly relevant to what they were

02:23:36 particularly relevant to what they were doing

02:23:36 doing um they may be aware of it but not specific details perhaps yeah would you expect that there ought to have been some method of communicating within a building control department if there'd been significant

02:23:49 department if there'd been significant previous fires [Music]

02:23:56 i would like to think there would be but again it's going to depend on who's running the department and the various line managers i'm afraid would you have expected reasonably competent building

02:24:07 expected reasonably competent building control officers to be aware of um international cladding fires such as the spate of fires in the uae in 2012 2013 and then more later in 2015. yes in as much as

02:24:20 in 2015. yes in as much as they were shown on the in the press on the press in the tv and also they were focused on in professional journals would you

02:24:32 professional journals would you would you have expected the occurrence of such fires to have prompted any awareness on the part of a building control officer about the dangers of acm

02:24:43 control officer about the dangers of acm yes within your industry the building control industry was there any discussion about these fires and the lessons that could be learned from them at the time of the grenfell project so

02:24:55 at the time of the grenfell project so between 2012 and 2016. there were um i believe there was a letter from the fire brigade certainly in london that was issued

02:25:07 was issued highlighting the issues particularly after lachenal house etc and it was prominent in the industry

02:25:18 prominent in the industry in the professional journals

02:25:22 the it would have been discussed i would imagine

02:25:26 imagine at the likes of labc meetings etc yeah would you have expected a building control officer working in london to have been aware of the fire at lacanal house definitely

02:25:38 house definitely and in particular that the fire involved the facade and the exterior of that building

02:25:43 building as well as other issues at the time my recollection is that the emphasis was on the loss of compartmentation yeah not specifically on the external

02:25:55 yeah not specifically on the external spread

02:25:56 spread right when did you become aware that um external spread was an issue following lack of house it was almost reading the reports

02:26:08 it was almost reading the reports particularly from sir ken knight which was produced before the coroner's report i

02:26:14 i believe yeah

02:26:18 during their oral evidence mr hoban and mr allen were asked about conferences put on by the labc and particularly one conference which took place after the lachnal house fire was the lachnal house fire discussed

02:26:29 was the lachnal house fire discussed within your industry at the time yes and was there any general discussion or awareness of lessons to be learned from the lachlan house fire amongst local authority

02:26:41 house fire amongst local authority building control officers

02:26:45 i think as i recall what it flagged up was

02:26:49 was when works were undertaken without the proper measures being taken the correct routes being followed as regards building control

02:27:01 regards building control and the like and the fact that within say the same organization works could take place without the correct checking etc yeah

02:27:14 checking etc yeah did the fact of that lachnal house fire prompt local authority building control officers

02:27:19 officers um to begin to exercise particular scrutiny in respect of any works where there was the potential for facades to contribute to external flame spread in high-rise buildings

02:27:32 not that i can quote i don't think it was

02:27:35 was particularly in as regards the facade it was more the loss of compartmentation right that was my experience and do you think

02:27:43 think with high-rise buildings and knowledge about the dangers of loss of compartmentation did was there a sea change within the industry in terms of the level of scrutiny given to

02:27:54 scrutiny given to any plans that might involve a loss of complementation i think there was i think there was i couldn't quote specific examples but i think there was

02:28:07 specific examples but i think there was heightened awareness of the potential to lose compartmentation yes yeah so now i want to ask you some questions about the skills you would expect a building control officer to have with regard to interpreting

02:28:20 have with regard to interpreting manufacturers product information if we can turn at this point to mr uh jose anon's witness statement he's another rbkc building control officer

02:28:31 another rbkc building control officer if we go to rbk3029897 at page seven

02:28:39 and if we look at paragraph 34 at the bottom of the page

02:28:46 [Music] so just picking up what he says there in the first few lines he says as surveyors we make the assumption that products used on a project and factored into the design have

02:28:57 and factored into the design have already been tested to the necessary regulations and standards we cannot be expected to ascertain how safe a product is during a site visit and then he goes on to say there are a

02:29:09 and then he goes on to say there are a range of accrediting bodies to ensure product meet with the relevant regulations and british standards and the main bodies are the bba and the bre

02:29:17 bre do you see that there yes now do you agree with what he says there that um as surveyors you make an assumption that products used on a project have already been

02:29:28 used on a project have already been tested

02:29:30 tested and that they cannot be expected to ascertain how safe a product is during a site visit do you agree with that i do not agree with the assumption aspect if you

02:29:42 with the assumption aspect if you have if you see something on site that you don't know the details of then you would query it um you you would never make an assumptions the products used

02:29:54 the products used are compliant yeah you just wouldn't make that assumption and why not why wouldn't you make that assumption because you don't know it's been tested just by looking at it and you don't know

02:30:06 just by looking at it and you don't know what caveats were attached if any to that particular testing regime there probably is a lack of knowledge about testing

02:30:19 in relation to fire within the building control

02:30:23 control industry but that has improved greatly over the years but they're also anecdotally people talk and

02:30:37 it is known that product information is not always [Music]

02:30:45 [Music] fully explanatory of everything that is caveated in a fire test yeah now you say um

02:30:56 yeah now you say um that the lack of knowledge about testing has

02:30:59 has greatly increased over the years so i think you said the situation's got better over the years yes with a greater awareness and understanding of the need to scrutinize test information is that right correct

02:31:10 test information is that right correct yeah and where would you put the grenfell period in terms of that trajectory so 2012 to 2016 what would you say that the state was of of awareness

02:31:21 that the state was of of awareness of the need to check testing information carefully i think there was an awareness at that time yeah um yes i do think there was an awareness yeah and you would have expected a reasonably competent building

02:31:33 expected a reasonably competent building control officer to have had that awareness would you at the time yes yeah now we heard from mr john allen he said that interpreting certificates such as the bba certificate

02:31:44 the bba certificate and product literature is a core function of a building control officer that's what he said that's at day 47 page 79 lines 25 to 18. do you agree

02:31:55 page 79 lines 25 to 18. do you agree with that

02:31:56 with that yes now in contrast we heard from mr hoban that he was never trained to interpret certificates and that it was a very specialist subject that a fire engineer would understand

02:32:07 understand but as a building control officer he wouldn't have had that knowledge for the transcript that this is at day 46 page 77 lines 14-22 now

02:32:20 lines 14-22 now what skills and expertise would you expect a building control officer to have when it came to reviewing and interpreting product literature or certificates such as bba certificates or

02:32:31 certificates such as bba certificates or labc registered details

02:32:36 bba um certificates i thought i find mr hogan's statement strange inasmuch as bba certificates are not the sole

02:32:49 aspect of fire safety sorry bba certificates cover more than fire safety so they cover structure uh sound um all sorts of things so he would i would

02:33:01 all sorts of things so he would i would have thought have been familiar with all the different aspects and it says when read fully that there are caveats and reliance was placed on tests yeah i would hope

02:33:14 tests yeah i would hope that that would influence you to go and say well what did that test say because

02:33:23 sometimes the manufacturer can even put limits on the test criteria when it goes to the laboratory but until you

02:33:31 you read that test certificate you don't know that

02:33:34 know that or you don't know that this particular element was tested between two concrete linings as opposed to

02:33:42 to aluminium and timber yeah whatever so you i would have expected they would have interrogated the certificate yeah and does it follow from that answer that a reasonably competent building

02:33:53 that a reasonably competent building control officer would read those certificates in full including any caveats a reasonably yes competent one yes yeah

02:34:06 would you have expected them to have under undergone specific training to help them with how to interpret such certification experience suggests

02:34:17 certification experience suggests no is usually the training would be if you were trained on the job so to speak with somebody who knew that

02:34:29 knew that that way forward would it have been good practice

02:34:32 practice to have had training to help assist building control officers with how to interpret such manufacturers literature or testing information it would have been good practice yes yeah but it is your evidence

02:34:43 yeah but it is your evidence that it wouldn't have fallen below reasonable standards not to have had that training at the time

02:34:52 experience suggests it was it didn't occur yes i see

02:34:57 now you've said in your report um if we look at paragraph 440 on page 135

02:35:10 there we go um and you you say this you say i'm aware that there was a bba certificate in respect of the rayna bond acm cladding i have seen no evidence that this was provided to the building control body

02:35:21 provided to the building control body in my experience i would not normally accept a bba certificate as sole evidence of compliance because they are usually heavily caveated and it is difficult to identify the limitations of the certificate without seeing the underlying test

02:35:33 without seeing the underlying test data so i think that times with exactly what you were just explaining to us about your approach to test data yes

02:35:44 if not provided with the bba certificate or a bba certificate or something like it what should a reasonably competent building control officer be asking for to satisfy themselves that a product

02:35:55 to satisfy themselves that a product used complied with the building regulations a test certificate of that particular construction or an assessment by an accredited body

02:36:07 or an assessment by an accredited body or some other competent person who would take that test certificate and give an assessment as to what they would think would be the outcome if that particular composition

02:36:19 outcome if that particular composition was involved in a fire yeah would labc registered details also be

02:36:25 be a source of information about building control compliance yes

02:36:34 mr hoban stated in his all evidence that a bba

02:36:38 a bba certificate was something that we accepted as a standard and when asked whether these were accepted without question he said yes now

02:36:50 yes now is that representative of what was happening more widely in the local authority building control industry

02:36:58 i can only say probably yes but just to be clear you don't accept that that was competent practice my experience of bba certificates is is such yes

02:37:09 such yes i would not take them as the only um underlying justification yeah and just to be clear sorry i should have said that that

02:37:20 sorry i should have said that that for the transcript that evidence of mr hogan was at day 46 page 15 lines 20 to 25. now mr hoban said in his oral evidence that he did look at the bba certificate

02:37:32 that he did look at the bba certificate for the rainer bond acm panels that's day 45 page 32 lines 15 to 21. now um you didn't have that evidence at

02:37:43 now um you didn't have that evidence at the time you wrote your report and his oral evidence was if i can summarize it he said he would not read the certificate in detail but would pick out the points that concerned him

02:37:55 the points that concerned him that's day 46 page 16 lines one to four with regard to the reynabond bba certificate he said he couldn't recall but he maybe just looked at the first page

02:38:06 page that's day 46 page 18 lines 15 to 18. now just to be clear it will be a matter for the chairman and the panel to decide whether that evidence is accepted that

02:38:17 whether that evidence is accepted that all evidence but can we just assume for the moment let's assume for the moment that a building control officer did choose to look at a bba certificate would you expect that be building

02:38:28 would you expect that be building control officer to read more than just the first page of the bba certificate definitely the front page just gives a summary

02:38:37 summary the usually section seven or eight that relates to fire and that gives any caveats that relate to the use or the um the reason the bba certificate

02:38:50 or the um the reason the bba certificate says what it says yeah um mr hoban's oral evidence was also that he would treat labc registered details certificates as an acceptable standard that was day 46

02:39:02 an acceptable standard that was day 46 page 77 lines 14 to 22. would your evidence apply equally to an labc registered detail certificate i you would read the whole of that yes

02:39:14 you would read the whole of that yes rather than just any summary or box of that read it in its entirety yeah

02:39:22 mr hoban also said in oral evidence that he did not know what a bs 8414 test was now would you expect a reasonably competent building control officer to

02:39:34 competent building control officer to have known about what a bs 8414 test was at the time of the grenfell project by virtue of it being referenced in the approved document i would have thought

02:39:46 approved document i would have thought yes

02:39:46 yes yes it's in paragraph 12.5 of approved document b isn't yeah they may not have known exactly what it entailed but they would know of it and by virtue that would hope i would hope they would look further

02:39:58 hope they would look further if they needed to on a particular job yeah

02:40:01 yeah now you say i wouldn't necessarily expect them to know exactly what it entailed um i want to test this a bit further what precisely what level of understanding

02:40:12 precisely what level of understanding would you expect them to have for example

02:40:14 example would you expect them to understand that that was a system test and that only the exact system could be used if it satisfied the br135 criteria would you expect them to have

02:40:25 criteria would you expect them to have had that knowledge

02:40:33 experience suggests they would not have but having before them a job that would potentially involve that and if it was presented to them i would

02:40:45 if it was presented to them i would expect them to then delve into it to establish exactly eight four one four part one eight four one four part two the difference between them and the reason why um it was used yeah

02:40:58 and the reason why um it was used yeah so once they've got a project which involves looking at the b4 requirement you would expect them to read the relevant parts of approved document b yes see that there's an 8414 test

02:41:11 yes see that there's an 8414 test yes and then investigate what an 8414 test

02:41:14 test is at least in broad terms in broad terms yes

02:41:18 terms yes which would have told you that it was a system test yes yes it would

02:41:26 now training and cpd just to ask you some more specific questions about that in the context of what we know about the grenfell project if we can look at paragraph 31 of your report on page nine

02:41:43 paragraph 31 of your report on page nine you say there i've not seen sufficient evidence that the relevant individuals within the building control body were up to date with their cpd do you see that there

02:41:54 see that there sorry what sorry paragraph 31 i apologize

02:41:58 apologize oh you see that yeah at the time yes yes so when you wrote this you said you'd not seen sufficient evidence that the individuals were up to date with their cpd yes correct now you've now heard the

02:42:09 yes correct now you've now heard the evidence of both mr hoban and mr allen about the training and cpd activities that they personally undertook yes and the training provided in-house by rbkc's building control department do

02:42:21 rbkc's building control department do you have any um comments to make on on that now you've heard that evidence and i expected they would have done other

02:42:29 other than what was registered within rbkc in as much as they had continued membership of their relevant professional bodies

02:42:40 professional bodies i would just say that because you've done cpd doesn't mean to say it's 10 hours on fire 10 hours on structures and 10 hours on something else it's just an overall

02:42:52 something else it's just an overall continuing professional development aspect

02:42:55 aspect it wouldn't be specific to fire but it would appear that the relevant cpd for their professional

02:43:06 relevant cpd for their professional body was carried out yeah i understand now we've heard that there was no specific

02:43:15 specific training provided on the part b4 of schedule one of the building regulations and the guidance in approved document b on on b4 saved possibly for some

02:43:26 on on b4 saved possibly for some training when the approved document first came out and if there were any amendments that's mr hoban's evidence for the transcript that's day 45 pages 17 and 20.

02:43:39 pages 17 and 20. um what do you say about that would you have expected there to have been

02:43:46 been some training over and above just when approved documents change relevant to the b4 requirement

02:43:56 not unless there was an an in-house training program that was influenced by events or particular interests or changes

02:44:08 or particular interests or changes in legislation or in the approved documents

02:44:13 documents right i'm afraid some authorities are better than others yeah we've also heard that there was no training or provided on industry guidance such as the bca technical guidance notes that's

02:44:25 the bca technical guidance notes that's mr hoban day 45 page 21 lines 12 to 17. again what's your view about that there was no training provided on industry guidance is that to be expected

02:44:36 industry guidance is that to be expected or would you have expected more [Music]

02:44:41 [Music] i'm afraid again it would depend on the particular building control department and the structure within that department whether they had somebody who could give

02:44:53 they had somebody who could give in-house training or whether it could be bought in

02:45:00 but my experience would be that when the legislation changed there would be some sort of

02:45:09 document would go around or there would be a group meeting to discuss and highlight aspects of change et cetera um or if there was some if you had let's

02:45:20 um or if there was some if you had let's say a

02:45:21 say a building control alliance document that was particularly relevant to what was prevalent in the borough at the time

02:45:28 time yeah then i would imagine that would have been

02:45:32 have been made known to all members i see now in this inquiry we're particularly focused on part b of schedule one of the building regulations an approved document b a building control officer obviously has

02:45:44 a building control officer obviously has to deal with the whole range of issues covered by the building regulations and the approved documents is it reasonable in your view to expect a local authority building control department

02:45:55 department to provide training to their surveyors on specific aspects of the building regulations or the approved documents in those circumstances yes because i would expect

02:46:10 yes because i would expect the management to establish the weaknesses in knowledge and the specialisms particularly for instance you had a structural engineer who was a qualified structural engineer

02:46:21 who was a qualified structural engineer it may be that you would ask them to deal with the structural aspect of another person's patch area that they dealt with because they were more competent to do with it

02:46:33 were more competent to do with it but a manager should be overseeing the staff to know where their failings or their short fallings were and then instigate training if it was possible to attain it within that organization

02:46:45 attain it within that organization or outside yeah is it reasonable to expect a building control officer to be a specialist in all 14 parts of schedule 1 to the building regulations and associated guidance no

02:46:58 what about the other documents such as british standards and industry guidance referred to in the approved documents how aware would you expect them to be of those

02:47:08 those i would expect them to be aware of them i would expect people to have a general knowledge of the documents they need to carry out the function they were performing and then to be able to access that

02:47:20 and then to be able to access that document and use it as necessary and to delve into it to the depth necessary and if they were becoming confused or didn't understand or for whatever reason to go up the

02:47:32 for whatever reason to go up the management line to obtain that support to conduct that function yeah now um just a final point on training and i want to go to one of your conclusions if we look at page

02:47:43 your conclusions if we look at page 136 paragraph 445 of your report we can see you're dealing with cavity barriers at this point four four five at the bottom of that

02:47:54 four four five at the bottom of that page and you say this in terms of the installation of cavity barriers on site i have noted above that john hoban states he was not trained to check this i'm surprised by this statement as in my

02:48:05 i'm surprised by this statement as in my opinion it's part of the role of a building control body to check whether the installation of cavity barriers on site complied with the manufacturer's guidance do you see that there yes now

02:48:17 do you see that there yes now mr hoban's all evidence was that what he actually meant was that he was not trained to check on the tested and specified method of installation of cavity

02:48:26 cavity of cladding systems but that he had picked up through reading documents how cavity barriers were supposed to be installed

02:48:33 installed for the transcript that's day 46 page 126 lines uh 20 to page 128 line 11. however he did also

02:48:45 page 128 line 11. however he did also confirm that he did not have formal training on how to check cavity barriers on site that was day 46 page 127 917-22 would you expect a building control

02:48:57 would you expect a building control officer to have formal training on how to check

02:49:00 to check cavity barriers on site [Music]

02:49:03 [Music] in my experience the training would have been

02:49:07 been going out with somebody who knew how they should be installed and to be shown what they should be looking for or somebody going back getting the

02:49:18 or somebody going back getting the information from the manufacturer as to how the tested cavity barrier should be installed yeah

02:49:29 cavity barrier should be installed yeah and to make sure that

02:49:33 that particular barrier was fitted in the required way for that particular barrier yeah so i think you're saying two things there that you would have expected there to have been some training in the form of

02:49:44 have been some training in the form of at least going out with someone who knew how they should be installed and showing them what to do but then i think you're saying separately that they should know that they should

02:49:56 that they should know that they should be getting the information from the manufacturer of the cavity barrier and checking that carefully to make sure it was installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions is that correct yes

02:50:08 is that correct yes now we've now heard the oral evidence about the training um and experience that the building control officers had um can i ask you what do you think about

02:50:21 um can i ask you what do you think about whether

02:50:21 whether john allen was an experienced and competent building control surveyor with the necessary qualifications and experience to be a building control manager

02:50:29 manager at rbkc

02:50:32 at rbkc well i wonder whether that's not something for the panel to decide i mean of course ms menses can tell us what qualities were required for someone in john allen's position

02:50:44 in john allen's position i understand you think i'm happy not to put the question but this is one i've been asked to put so you you can ask this means if perhaps it would help us all if you were just to give us a resume of what you think

02:50:56 give us a resume of what you think someone in charge of a building control department what quality is a person in charge of the building control department should have that they should have

02:51:08 should have that they should have experience in the building control industry if you want to put it like that generally know about building have professional qualifications

02:51:22 have professional qualifications also be a good manager and make sure that their department was doing what was required

02:51:32 required by law for them to do and that they were following what they'd laid down as being the right

02:51:43 what they'd laid down as being the right processes

02:51:45 processes but in doing that they have to be

02:51:49 they have to put those processes in a manner

02:51:52 manner which the staff can access retrieve and learn from and they also need to be checks and guards in their systems to make sure

02:52:04 guards in their systems to make sure that the function was being carried out correctly

02:52:08 correctly i suppose it also takes a certain personable nature to deal with staff public et cetera and what about on the training front do you want something about well they

02:52:19 do you want something about well they should ensure that training is being undertaken as and when necessary that's knowing the um the lack the the gaps in ability of their various staff

02:52:31 in ability of their various staff and to keep up with the industry now it might be turning around and saying what have you done for your cpd for your rics or your

02:52:38 or your strut and structural engineering qualification just to make sure people are on top

02:52:45 all departments in my experience do an appraisal

02:52:49 appraisal what the outcome of that appraisal is doesn't always come to fruition should we say yeah right now do follow any of that up or anything else that might bear on i'm

02:53:00 or anything else that might bear on i'm going to ask you a related question which is now take a building control officer so not the manager of the department can you answer the same question what skills experience training would you have expected a

02:53:12 training would you have expected a building control officer to have had such as mr hoban at the time

02:53:18 competency comes generally with experience not necessarily with qualification academic qualification

02:53:29 the competency would be competency to do the job for the projects they were given you you find people are very very good

02:53:40 you you find people are very very good at doing

02:53:41 at doing houses you find people are very very good at doing commercial projects if they don't have we'll call it a patch in their area if

02:53:52 we'll call it a patch in their area if they don't have the experience to gain from the different types of building

02:54:00 they've how can i put it they often specialize in certain buildings but overall a competent building control officer should have basic structure structural knowledge

02:54:14 basic structure structural knowledge but in all of these they need to acknowledge their limitations yeah so a full you know basic structure definitely a basic means of escape and

02:54:25 definitely a basic means of escape and fire brigade access and linings because that's not particularly complicated um and then

02:54:36 basic knowledge of drainage and that type of thing but in terms of fire it would be definitely means that escape and fibergate access because they are the basics

02:54:47 access because they are the basics of fire safety shall we say if you get into large complex buildings then b3 and b4 become important if you're dealing with residential you

02:54:59 if you're dealing with residential you would need a knowledge of b3 which is compartmentation because that's the basis of the means of escape to be a competent building control officer you need a knowledge

02:55:12 officer you need a knowledge of part b to the effect that every part of it is linked to them all you cannot deal with one without considering the other yeah but the priority i would

02:55:23 the other yeah but the priority i would say would be means of escape and b5 brigade access yeah that's helpful can i perhaps approach this question in a slightly different way in general

02:55:35 a slightly different way in general terms having looked at their training and qualifications would you say that their experience and qualifications and training are representative of those working in local authority building control departments at the time

02:55:46 at the time so take mr hoban was his training experience representative of what you would expect to see in building control departments at that time or your knowledge of that

02:55:58 knowledge of that i would say yes but adding the i found i find it strange of the reliance on the consultant in-house consultant

02:56:09 on the consultant in-house consultant for all matters relating to b1

02:56:15 to the means of escape i think what you're talking about is that you find it strange that within that team they were so reliant on mr paul hansen in relation to b1 means of escape

02:56:26 in relation to b1 means of escape matters is that what you're saying yes yeah

02:56:29 yeah we're going to come back to how they used mr hanson's role a little bit later and mr chairman i'm now going to turn to can i follow up then with a couple of yes other questions um

02:56:41 yes other questions um mr um tobin described how each of the surveyors was given a patch to look after which would no doubt give rise to a lot of different sorts of buildings is that a

02:56:52 sorts of buildings is that a common way of working as far as you know in local authority yes yes and he also told us uh or gave us a fair idea

02:57:01 fair idea of the number of different projects that he was

02:57:05 he was juggling at any one time someone would require immediate actions some wouldn't um i think he said at one stage he might have had as many of 130 projects on the books so to speak did

02:57:18 projects on the books so to speak did that strike you as unusual or not not really on the basis as you said um some could be dormant some could be a matter that would take

02:57:30 some could be a matter that would take you know one visit and that would be it others would be in progress

02:57:37 i think for that number you need to be well organized have very good means of tracking what you were doing and a very good diary system where

02:57:49 and a very good diary system where however you chose to do that to to control that number

02:57:55 number um and your manager should be monitoring how you were dealing with that number yeah thank you do you want to follow that avatar no i've got some questions on that coming later but um

02:58:07 later but um no it's good it's good it shows we're on the right track um no i'll leave those for now um i was going to say that i'm now going to get to um mrs menzie's criticisms of what happened on grenfell

02:58:18 criticisms of what happened on grenfell so it's a good time to start oh this is a good time to have a break then isn't it yes

02:58:21 it yes yes good time to have a break for lunch and this is so we'll stop now we'll come back and resume at two o'clock and as before please don't talk to anyone about your evidence

02:58:32 anyone about your evidence thank you all right thank you very much

02:58:43 thank you two o'clock then please

02:59:18 you