James Harrison of Cadent Gas gives evidence on gas supply infrastructure at Grenfell Tower, the 2016 survey findings, isolation of riser 2, and the replacement works undertaken by contractor Trio.
00:00:37 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear evidence from mr james harrison of cadent which was the body responsible for transporting gas to grenfell tower
00:00:50 for transporting gas to grenfell tower so miss heinz good morning sir and good morning to members of the panel yes may i please call mr james harrison of cadent gas limited thank you
00:01:05 good morning mr harrison good morning i understand you're going to take the oath i am so there should be a testament there could you hold the book in your right hand please and read the words on the screen i swear by almighty god that the
00:01:17 i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth good thank you very much indeed do sit down make yourself comfortable there
00:01:30 there's water there if you'd like some um
00:01:33 um all right yeah cracking yes thank you good morning mr harrison and thank you very much for coming to the inquiry to assist us
00:01:41 assist us if you have any difficulty in understanding my questions please just say and i'll ask it in a different way we're going to take scheduled breaks today one in the morning and one in the afternoon
00:01:50 afternoon but if you need a break at any other point please just let me know and please keep your voice up so the transcriber who's sitting to your right can take down your evidence clearly now you've made five witness statements
00:02:02 now you've made five witness statements can we go to m e t three zeros one two 12831 please
00:02:10 this is your statement dated the 30th of january 2018 to the metropolitan police it's 17 pages long
00:02:18 long and i'll call this your first mps statement
00:02:22 statement can we now go to met3018804 this is your second statement to the metropolitan police and it's dated the 29th of june 2018.
00:02:35 29th of june 2018. it's 12 pages long and i'll call that your second mps statement can we go to
00:02:43 cad402985 this is your first statement of the inquiry and we can see at the top that it's
00:02:50 it's dated 19th of october 2018 and i'll call this your first inquiry statement
00:02:58 statement can we go to page 24 please we see there's a signature there is that your signature yes yes can we go to cad 403019
00:03:12 can we go to cad 403019 this is your second statement of the inquiry and if we look at the bottom of the page
00:03:16 the page we can see that it's dated 13th of november 2018. i'll call that your second inquiry statement and is that your signature there at the bottom it is yes finally can we go to cad403043
00:03:32 it is yes finally can we go to cad403043 this is your third statement to the inquiry and it's dated 19th of march 2021. can we please go to page 15
00:03:41 page 15 we can see a signature is that your signature
00:03:44 signature that's an electronic signature that i use but that is my my my statement thank you have you read each of these statements recently i have yes can you confirm that the
00:03:55 i have yes can you confirm that the contents of each of them is true i can thank you i want to start by talking about your education and your experience i understand that you graduated in 1999
00:04:07 i understand that you graduated in 1999 with a degree in civil engineering is that right that is correct and after university did you work for mj gleason group for a very short period of time how long did you work with them
00:04:18 time how long did you work with them i worked for them for one year during my sandwich placement and then for a couple of months after graduating and what was your role with them i was a setting out engineer now i understand
00:04:29 understand that after your period of with mj gleason you were accepted onto a graduate course with what was then known as transco is that right yes did transco then become national grid
00:04:40 did transco then become national grid plc
00:04:42 plc transgo and national grid merged so yes they did i see is it right that when you started the graduate scheme transco operated the gas transmission and distribution systems in the uk
00:04:54 and distribution systems in the uk correct yes now in that graduate scheme did you get hands-on experience in gas distribution and supply i did yes can you give us an example or a few examples of the roles that you had
00:05:05 a few examples of the roles that you had um it was an 18-month program and i decided to do a six-month placement working as a first co-operative um working alongside first cooperatives
00:05:18 um working alongside first cooperatives and pausing there mr harrison what's the first call operative first call operatives are the engineers that go to a gas escape when a member of the public call it in right and were you also a technician in
00:05:31 right and were you also a technician in the repair side yeah i took up a role working with as a technician in the repair side and what's the difference between repair and first crawl first call go to a publicly reported gas
00:05:43 first call go to a publicly reported gas escape
00:05:44 escape to determine the level of escape and then the repair teams will follow that up and if needed fix the gas pipe that's leaking right and
00:05:54 and what i'm getting at is that you were not sitting behind a desk for this role you were
00:05:58 were in amongst the pipes as it were yes i was working in the field right and i understand that after your graduate role you became a network supervisor is that correct that is correct now is that a management role
00:06:10 is correct now is that a management role it's it's it's a first level of management roles right and since then have you worked in a variety of management roles i have yes are you a chartered gas
00:06:21 i have yes are you a chartered gas engineer
00:06:22 engineer i am yes do you know or can you recall when you got that accreditation um around 2010 2011. thank you we won't hold you to the
00:06:33 2011. thank you we won't hold you to the exact date would i be right to say that you have 20 years
00:06:38 years of operational gas experience yes and you've had i think you've answered this question but just to be sure you've had
00:06:46 had experience dealing with on one hand gas emergencies and on the other hand planned repair i've dealt with gas emergencies planned repair and maintenance and replacement
00:06:58 repair and maintenance and replacement of the gas network what's the difference you've drawn a distinction between maintenance and replacement can you explain the difference between that yeah maintenance is when we go out
00:07:11 that yeah maintenance is when we go out and we do
00:07:12 and we do proactive checks and maintenance on our pressure reduction equipment and our high pressure pipelines
00:07:19 pipelines well you've used the word proactive i understand also that there's something called reactive works could you explain the difference between those yeah the reactive works was largely what i was doing when i worked in emergency
00:07:30 i was doing when i worked in emergency and repair where we're responding we're reacting to a calling from a member of the public proactive is where we go and gather evidence and data on our assets and then make proactive
00:07:42 our assets and then make proactive interventions on those assets right now when you made your first four statements your role was head of operations for the emergency response and repair network but when you made
00:07:55 and repair network but when you made your more recent statement of march this year
00:07:57 year your role is director for the north london network when did you start that role i started the director role in april 2019.
00:08:09 in april 2019. and is it still your role it is yeah were you promoted to that role i was now i've understood from your witness statement that you were directly involved in the events of the fire at grenfell tower and in
00:08:22 of the fire at grenfell tower and in fact you attended on the 14th of june 2007 during the works to isolate the supply is that right yes and that was in your capacity as
00:08:33 yes and that was in your capacity as head of operations for north london emergency response and repair yes can you um can you explain where that team sits within the organization sorry
00:08:45 team sits within the organization sorry if if we look at the organization perhaps i can prompt you there's an operations team is that within the operations team at cadence it is yes and there's another team which i understand
00:08:56 there's another team which i understand is called the operate and maintained department is that a separate team no the operator maintain team is within the operations team i see but there's two separate teams operate and maintain an emergency response i see
00:09:10 an emergency response i see would the operate and maintain department have been the department that dealt with the replacement riser at grenfell tower 2016-17 no they weren't so which department
00:09:22 no they weren't so which department would have been dealing with the replacement riser in 2016-17 that was dealt with by a department called c-mac which was run by a colleague of mine called steve
00:09:34 by a colleague of mine called steve mason and
00:09:36 mason and it sounds like c-max an acronym sorry construction management um i can't remember the rest of the app perhaps it's contract management and construction correct thank you thank you very much um
00:09:49 correct thank you thank you very much um thinking back to 2016 you've mentioned steve mason can you tell me what his role was in that in 2016. yes steve was a colleague of mine who was
00:10:01 mine who was running the contract with trio to replace gas pipes in london and in the east of england network
00:10:11 network would you personally have had much to do directly with the cmaq team during 2016-17 in my capacity
00:10:22 2016-17 in my capacity in the east of england yes but not in the north of london no not in the london network you have very helpfully however given us evidence
00:10:32 evidence about the how operations worked in caden across
00:10:35 across that operations team and to an extent within the cmaq team and what i really want to understand is is your evidence based on your knowledge and experience of the
00:10:47 and experience of the cadent as an organization it is yes and is it also based on your reading of documents since the fire it is yes i want to ask you a little more about
00:10:58 more about cadent as an entity my understanding is that
00:11:02 that up until the 30th of november it was called
00:11:05 called national grid plc and it owned and operated
00:11:08 operated some of the gas distribution networks in the uk is that right up until the 30th of september 2016 and then on the 1st of april 2017 it
00:11:20 and then on the 1st of april 2017 it became its own separate entity as we separated from national grid well i've understood actually if i can just take it in stages that on the 1st of october 2016
00:11:32 1st of october 2016 the gas distribution part of national grid plc
00:11:37 grid plc became national grid gas distribution limited that's correct and then that entity became national became cadent in fact on in as you say
00:11:48 became cadent in fact on in as you say i think that's on the 1st of may 2017. okay first of may yes would you like to have a look at the no no i didn't know it was the first of april or the 1st of may i believe your witness
00:11:59 the 1st of may i believe your witness statement says 1st of may but in any event from october 2016 was it a private company as opposed to a public class and is it
00:12:12 as opposed to a public class and is it a commercial enterprise no it's a regulated
00:12:15 regulated um company well that's that's something i want to ask you about next actually can we go to your first inquiry statement at page two which is cad402985
00:12:29 which is cad402985 at paragraph seven you say this cadent is a gas transporter which means that it owns and operates pipes and associate associated apparatus
00:12:41 pipes and associate associated apparatus which supply natural gas to commercial and domestic properties within the geographic footprint of its distribution networks cadent owns and operates four of the eight regulated gas distribution
00:12:53 eight regulated gas distribution networks in the uk namely the east of england the northwest the west midlands and north london where grenfell tower the tower is located cadent manages its networks including
00:13:05 cadent manages its networks including connecting new customers and responding to reported gas escapes it also manages the national gas emergency service number on behalf of all gas distribution networks
00:13:16 networks so taking that breaking that up into smaller chunks does that mean that cadent transports the gas
00:13:23 the gas through the network to consumers put simply
00:13:27 simply it does yes cadent doesn't actually own the gas no we don't owns and operates the pipes in apparatus that transport the gas correct yes and when you say geographic footprint
00:13:37 footprint do you mean that cadent has responsibility for transporting gas within a defined area yes i do and you say cadence responsible for four of the eight regulated gas distribution networks and
00:13:49 regulated gas distribution networks and you gave us a list of the coverage east of england being one of them and north london being another what do you mean by the eight regulated gas distribution
00:14:00 by the eight regulated gas distribution networks
00:14:01 networks there are eight regulated gas distribution networks in the uk um in 2005 um the national grid sold or separated
00:14:12 the national grid sold or separated four of those gas distribution networks and kept the other four so that would be um scotia gas which covers scotland southern gas
00:14:24 southern gas northern gas networks and whales in the west
00:14:27 west thank you very much do you recognize the term
00:14:31 term distribution network operator i do yes what does that mean that means that we own and operate the distribution network as opposed to the gas transmission
00:14:42 as opposed to the gas transmission network
00:14:43 network and if i can explain the gas transmission network would be like the um the the motorway of gas pipes when gas comes into the country um the gas distribution networks would
00:14:54 um the gas distribution networks would be more like the a roads and b roads taking the gas from the transmission network to customers properties and so just to clarify that analogy caden gas would be responsible for the a and b roads in that analogy yes there's also
00:15:08 in that analogy yes there's also something called an independent gas transporter can you tell us what they are independent gas transporters are um tend to be much smaller networks um where they own the pipes within a
00:15:20 um where they own the pipes within a smaller geographical network so would i be right to give as an example
00:15:26 example an independent gas transporter might cover the gas going into a new housing development or a contained commercial park yes right now
00:15:37 yes right now you said that cadent operates the emergency service number on behalf of all gas transporters is that right that is right yes now just considering the size and position of cadent would
00:15:49 the size and position of cadent would you agree that cadent is one of the leading gas transporters if not actually the leading gas transporter um it's one of the largest what is the largest i want to turn now
00:16:02 what is the largest i want to turn now to look at exactly what parts of a network these a and b roads as you say that the gas transporter is responsible for my understanding is that a gas transport is responsible for all of the pipe work
00:16:15 is responsible for all of the pipe work from the motorway to extend that analogy up to a valve called the emergency control valve sometimes called an ecv is that right yes it is can you tell
00:16:26 ecv is that right yes it is can you tell us what an ecv is an emergency control valve is the last point before because the the network goes into the customers
00:16:34 customers ownership it's used to turn off the gas supply within their properties who can turn off an ecv um cadent engineers can gas safe engineers can and also owners
00:16:47 gas safe engineers can and also owners and residents in those properties so to give us a picture if say i smelled gas
00:16:53 gas in my flat and i phoned cadence emergency
00:16:56 emergency number they might tell me that i could turn the ecv they would tell you to turn the ecv off where would you typically find an ecv it's um by the meter by the consumer
00:17:07 it's um by the meter by the consumer meter
00:17:09 meter and just to clarify it cadence responsible for the pipe work up to and including the ecv is that right that's correct now i've seen in documents that some of
00:17:20 now i've seen in documents that some of the pipes are called risers and some are called laterals can you just help us to understand what a riser is
00:17:27 riser is yes in in flats in multi-occupancy buildings
00:17:32 buildings the riser is the main the main pipe which runs vertically they can sometimes run horizontally within a a high-rise building we then have laterals which
00:17:44 laterals which are branches from the riser which go to customers meter points so the word riser seems to suggest to me that it's vertical but you're saying sometimes they can rise very rarely
00:17:55 sometimes they can rise very rarely they're horizontal but the vast vast majority are vertical when would you call a horizontal riser a horizontal pipe a riser if it was the main branch pipe
00:18:07 riser if it was the main branch pipe now beyond the ecv there's things like pipes going to the meter and connectors there's the meter and then this pipe work that goes to the
00:18:18 and then this pipe work that goes to the meat to the appliances so a cooker or whatever else is connected i'm going to call the pipe work and the apparatus
00:18:25 apparatus that's downstream so on the consumer side i'm going to call that installation pipe work and everything that's upstream i'm going to call that service pipe work
00:18:37 i'm going to call that service pipe work so just to be absolutely sure i've got the definition correctly caden would be responsible for the service pipe work but not the installation pipework that's correct who's responsible for the installation
00:18:49 who's responsible for the installation pipework in apparatus the the owner of the of the property and the panel's heard evidence in this module about
00:18:56 about gas safety checks in the flats at grenfell
00:18:59 grenfell those checks would they have been on the installation pipework and apparatus they would yes and does it follow from your evidence that those checks were not to do with cadence at all
00:19:10 cadence at all no they're not cadence responsibility right
00:19:15 i want to ask you now about how gas transporters are monitored and regulated first the health and safety executive can you explain
00:19:25 explain what the hsc does in relation to gas distribution and supply the health and safety executive is effectively our safety regulator
00:19:36 would i be right to say they're responsible for all of the safety of the gas
00:19:41 gas distribution and supply yes
00:19:45 now i've seen something called a gas safety case can you explain what a gas safety case is the gas safety case is a document that the gas transporters own that sets out
00:19:56 the gas transporters own that sets out how they're going to run their gas distribution network or their network and does the hsc have any involvement with the gas saving case yeah we send and share the safety case with the hse and is every gas transporter
00:20:09 hse and is every gas transporter required to have one yes how often does the hsc view your guest safety cases i don't know exactly how often it is i think it's whenever there's a
00:20:20 it is i think it's whenever there's a material change within the way the company's organized or every i'll get the information to you if you need i i think it might be that in absent of any absence of any material change
00:20:33 any absence of any material change the gas transporter has to monitor the has to review their gas safety case and produce it to the hsc every three years does that sound
00:20:44 years does that sound it sounds correct that sounds correct either three or five years was what i was going to say thank you there's another entity called offgem
00:20:53 offgem who are they offgem are a economic regulator so they set out the the funding that we have to run our gas network
00:21:02 network um would it be fair to say they monitor price of gas and competitiveness of gas pricing
00:21:09 pricing they monitor the competitiveness of the gas distribution networks
00:21:15 how we perform between each other and they are also involved in gas pricing although that has no relevance to cadence why do you say that because we don't own the gas we just transport it
00:21:26 the gas we just transport it i understand now as a gas transporter does cadent have a number of legal duties
00:21:35 duties we do yes we can find various regulations that apply to industry you've already mentioned stephen mason i just want to go to something he says because he summarizes
00:21:46 something he says because he summarizes it very quickly can we go to his first witness statement at cad
00:21:52 at cad 704 page two and at paragraph five he says cadent has a duty to
00:22:04 five he says cadent has a duty to connect customers whose premises are situated
00:22:07 situated horizontally within 23 meters from a relevant gas main cadent also has a duty to maintain gas connection until such time as it is no longer required by the owner or occupier of the
00:22:19 required by the owner or occupier of the premises
00:22:21 premises now just as a summary of cadence duty to connect
00:22:26 connect do you agree with that i do that's section 10 from the gas act quite right can we now look at the pipeline safety regulation 1996
00:22:38 pipeline safety regulation 1996 that's at ca um no sorry can we actually look at your first inquiry statement at page five that's cad four zeros two nine eight five page five
00:22:51 two nine eight five page five paragraph nineteen you say cadent has a duty to ensure that all of its assets are in a safe and reliable condition
00:23:00 condition specifically regulation 13 of the pipeline safety regulation 1996 states and here you quote the regulations the operator shall ensure that a
00:23:11 the operator shall ensure that a pipeline is maintained in an efficient state
00:23:13 state in efficient working order and in good repair
00:23:17 repair now can i take it from that that you agree that the pipeline safety regulation 1996 applies to the service pipe work for which caden's responsible
00:23:28 responsible i do yes and do you agree that one of the purposes of this regulation is to keep the service pipe work safe yes and do you accept that this duty encompasses all of the apparatus keeping them all in good
00:23:40 the apparatus keeping them all in good repair
00:23:41 repair which would include valves and valve chambers i do yes now can we go to the pipeline safety regulation at 1996 we'll find that at
00:23:54 inq3014790
00:23:59 and can we go to page five of that please
00:24:04 please and at the bottom of page five we see regulation eight materials the operator shall ensure that no fluid is conveyed in a pipeline unless it is composed of materials which
00:24:15 unless it is composed of materials which are suitable are you familiar with that regulation i'm aware of it yes can we now go to page 9
00:24:23 page 9 and look at regulation 16.
00:24:29 regulation 16 is in the middle of the page there for the purpose of ensuring that no damage is caused to a pipeline the operator shall take such steps to
00:24:40 the operator shall take such steps to inform persons of its existence and whereabouts as our whereabouts as are reasonable are you familiar with that regulation yes would you expect every cadent operative to be familiar or
00:24:53 every cadent operative to be familiar or broadly familiar with those regulatory duties yeah through our company policies policies and procedures i i would um well that's an ex perfect segue into
00:25:05 um well that's an ex perfect segue into my next
00:25:05 my next set of questions which are about those policies and procedures i want to understand about how caden uses these and we'll come on to the detail of them as they apply to grenfell in a moment
00:25:16 as they apply to grenfell in a moment just thinking generally if we step back one of the ways that cadent meets its regulatory duties i understand is by having a rolling program of surveys and condition inspections
00:25:29 surveys and condition inspections is that right that is correct and presumably if caden finds something within those surfaces
00:25:36 surfaces those surveys that's not safe or efficient
00:25:40 efficient caden would take action on them or or it would and in addition something that requires further investigation very well and i think you've answered
00:25:51 very well and i think you've answered this question through the policies and procedures caden intends to meet statutory requirements the duties we've just looked at yes i see can we go to um
00:26:08 cad402996
00:26:14 this is a document at the top we can see it has
00:26:18 it has a reference of t p l l c 20 and it's called policy for inspection maintenance and monitoring of supplies to high and
00:26:31 and monitoring of supplies to high and medium rise buildings i'm going to call this the lc20 policy we can see that it's about high-rise buildings
00:26:41 buildings why would cadent need a dedicated policy for buildings of this of height because they're of a different nature to the other assets that
00:26:52 the other assets that we own um and we would need a specific procedure in order to in investigating to survey those buildings can you tell us how
00:27:02 us how they're different from other buildings well the majority of the uh uh high-rise buildings are um kind of in a um so i'll start again
00:27:13 kind of in a um so i'll start again our gas pipes out in the road are easily accessible by our engineers whereas high-rise buildings are made up of several dwellings and different communal areas where we need to have specific access to
00:27:26 need to have specific access to to enter those which is different to our gas mains
00:27:30 gas mains domestic normal standard domestic dwellings as they were or smaller medium-rise flats right and just thinking about what this policy covers
00:27:40 covers am i right to say that what it says in brief is high-rise buildings will be surveyed periodically that is correct and they'll be given a building priority score is that right
00:27:52 building priority score is that right that is right and is it right that the score that they get will determine the frequency with which they they are surveyed that is correct can you give us an idea of
00:28:03 can you give us an idea of the sorts of time scales um they would be surveyed every one five or ten years and would i be right to say that any building over two hundred and ten thousand on your
00:28:15 two hundred and ten thousand on your scoring system would then go to a um particular process where it's considered in more detail yes let's turn to that at the uh can we go to cad
00:28:27 go to cad four zeros two 2987
00:28:35 there's a table at the bottom of this front page and we can see the first line of that table gives it the code of tpmlc21 and if we go we can actually see the
00:28:46 and if we go we can actually see the title in that box there and it's the management procedure for the asset management of gas supplies to multi-occupancy high and medium rise buildings i'm going
00:28:57 high and medium rise buildings i'm going to call this the lc21 management procedure
00:29:01 procedure and to get an idea of what this covers can we go to the index at page four
00:29:11 and i want to just draw your attention to section five which is building surveys
00:29:17 surveys and we see those terms that you've used already proactive work and reactive work and at 5.4 we see that there'd be coverage about engagement with building owners
00:29:29 about engagement with building owners preparation of pre-survey work and at 5.6 we see particular details in this index of high-rise building surveys
00:29:40 building surveys if we just draw attention down to item number six
00:29:49 i'm sorry it's just dropped off my page i can you see the item number six mr harrison
00:29:54 harrison no i can see six gas leak foundation survey yes exactly and beneath that item seven asset strategy process yes and we see there under
00:30:07 yes and we see there under seven we see at 7.2 for example that building priority score that we were just talking about and we see that number at 7.3 210 000 we see some details of survey
00:30:21 000 we see some details of survey frequency
00:30:22 frequency and also specific provisions of severe corrosion reported so looking at that now there is more over the page which we can go to if you need it but
00:30:34 which we can go to if you need it but looking at that does this lc21 set out a procedure for conducting surveys it does yes
00:30:41 yes and also a procedure for what should happen once the survey data comes back yes yes
00:30:47 yes yes now we saw at 8.1 on this page hazop risk assessment what does hazop stand for
00:30:55 stand for it's a has a hazard operability study and what's a hazop risk assessment so when we get the data back from our surveys we will look at the
00:31:05 at the priority score and look at some of the the data that we found the hazop risk assessment then would step through a series of actions that we would need to fulfill
00:31:17 that we would need to fulfill very well can we go to a new document cad
00:31:22 cad 403001
00:31:28 and in the table at the bottom we can see that its references t prlc34
00:31:36 t prlc34 and it's called the work procedure for high-rise building surveys and risk assessment i'm going to call that lc34 what does this procedure cover that
00:31:48 what does this procedure cover that covers the steps taken following for further investigation as it were as part of the the hazop process and do you understand that that's quite a granular process a lot of detail is in
00:32:00 granular process a lot of detail is in this
00:32:00 this work procedure yes finally can we go to cad402997
00:32:13 at the bottom we can see that the document reference is tpmlc33
00:32:20 tpmlc33 and its title is management procedure assessment of corrosion damage on steel pipe work
00:32:26 pipe work supplying multi-occupancy high and medium-rise buildings i'm going to call that lc33 can you explain what this management procedure covers yeah this sets out the steps taken to do a
00:32:38 this sets out the steps taken to do a further investigation on the um the the the the ryzen network the steel network the corrosion and am i right sorry i
00:32:49 the corrosion and am i right sorry i didn't
00:32:50 didn't sorry please do you finish a corrosion assessment if severe corrosion is discovered this policy would this sorry this procedure would come into play
00:33:00 into play yes now taking together just these four documents this would set out what gets surveyed when what survey should be conducted and what
00:33:13 what survey should be conducted and what should happen with the information from the survey have i summarized that correctly
00:33:17 correctly yes
00:33:21 now with these the relevant documents in 2016 and 17. they were yes and have some of these policies and procedure documents now being superseded
00:33:32 being superseded they have been superseded yes when were they superseded in 2019 i think the detail is in some of my exhibits of exactly
00:33:43 is in some of my exhibits of exactly when the procedures changed yes i i have a note that it's april 2018 and october 2019 for two different yeah the mob they're called the mob series of documents
00:33:55 called the mob series of documents yes so for the benefit of the record exhibit 19 to mr harrison's inquiry witness statement is cad 403040
00:34:09 inquiry witness statement is cad 403040 and that's the work procedure assessment of corrosion damage on steel pipe work supplying multi-occupancy buildings dated april 2018. yes and mr harrison's exhibit number 20
00:34:20 yes and mr harrison's exhibit number 20 cad 403041 is the management procedure for the inspection maintenance monitoring and management of supplies to multi-occupancy buildings
00:34:31 multi-occupancy buildings and i have that dated as october 2019
00:34:36 why were these replaced um we reviewed our procedures um in in light of some of the um the events of grenfell tower and also
00:34:48 of grenfell tower and also moving in industry guidance as well are cadence policies and procedures monitored by the hse um the hsc carry out what they call
00:34:59 um the hsc carry out what they call intervention visits where they'll come into our organization and see our policies and procedures in action as it were
00:35:06 were but not necessarily as a matter of routine
00:35:09 routine the intervention visits our routine but what they look at is not routine i see am i right that
00:35:21 i see am i right that cadence policies and procedures or any gas transporters policies and procedures are not typically shared with other gas transporters they're bespoke and unique to cadent
00:35:34 they're bespoke and unique to cadent um that so cadent owns them and they're bespoke to cadence although we we do um kind of share through some of our industry groups our policies and procedures
00:35:45 procedures okay am i right though that the rest of the industry is not obliged to do exactly as cadent does you are yes you don't literally set the standard as it were no so that means i think that
00:35:59 no so that means i think that how cadent manages its compliance would not necessarily apply to say a small industry a sorry small independent gas transporter that's correct they would have their own procedures
00:36:10 have their own procedures right i'd now like to ask about caden's responsibility with an entity called trio in high level terms now was trio an unincorporated joint
00:36:22 now was trio an unincorporated joint venture
00:36:23 venture it was yes do you happen to know between which entities morrison and skanska did cadent and trio enter a contract they did yes
00:36:33 did yes do you happen to know when it started 2013.
00:36:38 2013. yes so what i've got is that the contract was entered on the 18th of december 2012. but it actually started april 2013. does that sound right yes that's correct and how long was it
00:36:50 yes that's correct and how long was it for eight years and under that contract was trio required to perform services on gas pipelines
00:36:56 pipelines they were yes was it part of trio's role to design and construct gas services yes and that would include i think grenfell tower yes was trio
00:37:10 yes was trio required to comply with statutory requirements
00:37:15 yes so statutory duties and what about any obligations put on them put on caden by the hsc or off gem
00:37:27 put on caden by the hsc or off gem trio would also be expected to apply by those and
00:37:30 those and same question about relevant european and british standards yes i want to ask first about some regulations called the
00:37:42 first about some regulations called the construction design and management regulations 2015. are you familiar broadly with those can we go to your third inquiry statement at page 14. that's cad
00:37:56 statement at page 14. that's cad 403043
00:38:00 and at paragraph 45 you say as stephen mason explains in greater detail cadent engaged trio under the gas distribution strategic partnership
00:38:11 distribution strategic partnership contract to provide riser replacement service across all of its networks under the cdm regulations 2015 cadent was the client in this
00:38:22 cadent was the client in this arrangement and trio was the appointed principal designer and principal contractor in practice this meant that trio was responsible for the replacement and
00:38:33 responsible for the replacement and connection work from receipt of the work instruction through to customer engagement design ordering materials construction and post-completion data capture
00:38:45 and post-completion data capture now by that i understand that the contract
00:38:48 contract designated pre uh trio to act as principal designer and also as principal contractor performing the duties on that are required of those roles
00:38:59 on that are required of those roles under the 2015 regulations have i summarized that correctly
00:39:03 correctly yes you have and cadent was to fulfill the duties of client is that right yes that's right can we now go to hsc
00:39:26 703
00:39:30 this is the health and safety executive's approved code of practice for the cdm regulations 2015. and if you're not enormously familiar
00:39:41 and if you're not enormously familiar with it what it does is it sets out the regulations and then provides some guidance on how an entity can comply with with those regulations
00:39:52 regulations can we go to page 14 please and here we see regulation 4 set out and you can see at the top that it deals
00:40:03 and you can see at the top that it deals with client duties relating to managing projects and at the bottom of this page we can see regulation 4 6 and it says this a client must take
00:40:16 6 and it says this a client must take reasonable steps to ensure that a the principal designer complies with any other principal designer duties in regulations 11 and 12 and over the page thank you the
00:40:28 and over the page thank you the principal contractor complies with any other principal contractor duties in regulations 12 to 14. you can take it from me that those regulations 11 to 14 mentioned there
00:40:40 regulations 11 to 14 mentioned there set out a variety of duties that the principal designer and principal contractor have to fulfill now having looked at that set out in this code of practice
00:40:51 that set out in this code of practice is it right that cadent as client would still be required to make take reasonable steps to make sure that trio
00:40:58 trio fulfilled its cdm duties that is correct yes
00:41:02 yes it's not the case is it that trio that caden can just sit back and let trio do whatever they want it shouldn't be the case now we've already looked at some hsc
00:41:15 now we've already looked at some hsc guidance about the cdm regulations does the hsc also issue guidance specific
00:41:24 specific to the gas industry it does yes and would cadent expect trio to comply with those hsc documents yes i want to ask you now about another body
00:41:36 i want to ask you now about another body called igem do you know what igem is i do as a gas engineer i thought that's what you would say can you tell us what igem is it's the institute of gas engineers and managers and that's effectively the
00:41:48 managers and that's effectively the governing body for the gas industry the governing body what sorts of documents does igem publish they publish engineering standards and engineering documents
00:41:59 engineering documents are those publications very widely used in the gas industry yes would cadence regard them as authoritative yes would you say that they're the most
00:42:10 yes would you say that they're the most authoritative statements of technical standards used within the uk gas industry i would yes now one of the publications you refer to in your statement is igem g5
00:42:21 g5 can we go to that please at rhx705
00:42:29 thank you in the top right hand corner we can see the code igem g5 edition two i understand that to be dated 2012. if we look to the middle of the page we
00:42:41 if we look to the middle of the page we can see the title gas in multi-occupancy buildings do you see that
00:42:46 see that i do yes so taking it from me that this is the 2012 edition was this publication current in 2016 and 17 yes
00:42:58 and 17 yes now the title tells us again that it's for multi-occupancy buildings so is this publication specifically relevant to the gas installations at grenfell tower yes and would you
00:43:11 at grenfell tower yes and would you expect trio to be familiar and follow the technical standards
00:43:15 standards in igem g5 yes very familiar yes i would can we go to clg 50224
00:43:26 50224 this is a document that the panel will be very familiar with its approved document b volume two as amended in 2013. this is issued by the secretary of state
00:43:37 this is issued by the secretary of state and it sets out practical guidance on compliance with building regulations now would this be a document that you would expect trio to comply with insofar as it was
00:43:48 trio to comply with insofar as it was relevant to works on gas rises i would expect them to be following that yes would you expect trio to be familiar with all of its contents
00:44:00 i i don't know the document but i would expect trio to be in its role fulfilling work on behalf of cadence would you say that they should be familiar with those parts relating to gas pipework
00:44:13 i believe so yes now in your experience would you say that gas
00:44:19 gas engineers tended to look primarily to igem publications yes and would you say that they tended to assume
00:44:29 to assume that if they complied with the igem documents
00:44:33 documents they would comply with all other standards
00:44:37 standards from a gas point of view yes but there are other documents such as this one here that they would also be expected to comply with i follow
00:44:47 i want to turn now to consider grenfell tower
00:44:50 tower specifically and i want to start by asking you about the way gas was supplied to the tower can we please go
00:44:58 please go now to four zero cad four zeros two 2992 this is your exhibit 14 to your first inquiry statement
00:45:11 we have that blown up please thank you now this is a map which i understand was created
00:45:18 created after the fire and it shows in a simplified form how the gas came into the tower and in fact it's been marked up to show where exactly it was cut off on
00:45:29 to show where exactly it was cut off on the night
00:45:30 the night on the day of the 14th of june 2017. and i'm showing you this just to get a bigger picture of the area in a simplified form yeah now
00:45:40 now i think the red lines indicate the gas pipes
00:45:44 pipes is that right though those red lines do indicate gas pipes yes but they're a vast number of more that's why we may see that we may see that later today this is a very simple
00:45:56 that later today this is a very simple map
00:45:56 map just drawn for the purposes of having an understanding yeah and the white square in the middle with the orange marker there's a pin an orange pin in it
00:46:07 there's a pin an orange pin in it yes there i understand that to be grenfell tower do you understand that as well he's correct yes and if we look to the west of the tower we see latimer road
00:46:18 we see latimer road station tube station and we can see a red line
00:46:22 red line going from the southwest to the northeast
00:46:27 northeast do you see that i i do and i understand that to be the main on station walk is that right that is correct yeah yeah we can see that it comes up and it goes up
00:46:38 goes up to sort of the top of the page then it turns southeast then it runs along the top of the tower and then it runs
00:46:48 runs north south down to the east side of the tower
00:46:54 tower have i got that correctly so far yes you have
00:46:58 have and we see some red lines going into the tower from that that main is that right yes and if we look to the south of the tower
00:47:06 tower we can see two other red lines that come up from the south and the south east one of them's got the number two on it and one of them has got the number three on it and they also join up with that north south
00:47:17 south main is that right yes those mains are all connected yes can we go to the expert report of mr rodney hancocks at page 14
00:47:30 which is rhx6012
00:47:43 and here we see it figure four a drawing of the basement at grenfell tower and there are three services going in and they're all on the east side now we saw in your
00:47:54 on the east side now we saw in your simplified map that there was a main on the east side of the tower running north south does that mean that all of the services going into the tower had to come in from the east
00:48:04 the east there wasn't a lot of choice about that all of the services came in from the east
00:48:09 east did they were they sort of bound by where the main was is what i'm getting at um yeah i mean when the tower was constructed they would have been bound by the position of our
00:48:20 by the position of our gas pipes and that would have been the most appropriate route to enter the building right now if you're outside the tower i think the service is coming
00:48:29 coming underground under the pathway that's outside the tower on the east is that right
00:48:34 right that's that's right yeah but is it right that when they go into the basement they actually enter at a very high height maybe about five meters from the ground is that right that is right well we can have a look at some pictures just to visualize that
00:48:46 some pictures just to visualize that can we please go to tri7050 this is a marked up photograph by one of the subcontractors to trio and it shows the east side of the tower
00:48:59 and it shows the east side of the tower and we can see that there is some red lines going in and i think those red lines show the the location
00:49:07 location of the pipes going in is that right yes she's right now can we look at tri's seven zeros 51. now this
00:49:18 seven zeros 51. now this is again a photograph by trio subcontractor in the basement and we can see a yellow pipe
00:49:25 pipe at the back there is that yellow pipe a gas pipe
00:49:28 gas pipe it is and it's coming into the basement at high level isn't it it is yes and there's a yellow line that's been drawn on is that where the new replacement pipe was to run
00:49:40 was to run as far as you know as far as i know it is yes
00:49:44 is yes can we go to your exhibit 11 at cad402991
00:49:52 thank you this is a diagram that you've provided to us showing different types of valves we can see at the bottom left right in the bottom left there's a valve called a piv
00:50:04 called a piv do you see it i do yes now above it there's an access chamber and there's a label for ground level
00:50:13 level what does piv stand for that stands for pipeline isolation valve can you explain what a p
00:50:19 what a p what a piv does um the purpose of a piv is to isolate the gas from a building from outside of the building
00:50:29 and we see something called an access chamber can you explain what an access chamber is an access chamber is a chamber that's built around above the valve so that you can get access
00:50:40 can get access to the valve in order to open it or to close it
00:50:44 close it and when would cadence typically expect to use a piv in a gas emergency or to isolate the gas from the building and should there be pivs on each of the
00:50:56 and should there be pivs on each of the services into grenfell tower for example yes there should be we'll we'll return to pivx in due course can we go back to figure four of mr hancock's report at page 14
00:51:07 hancock's report at page 14 rhx 6012
00:51:11 thank you now at the bottom of this drawing in purple we see a line labeled the landlord gas supply entry point i'm going to call that the landlord supply
00:51:23 supply can we now go to page 16 figure six we see rather detailed route of how the landlord supply comes through the basement
00:51:34 the basement it's in red at the bottom there
00:51:37 i think we've agreed that it comes in at high level but does this supply as far as you know then drop down to closer to the floor level
00:51:48 to closer to the floor level yeah i can't remember exactly where in the tower it does but yes it does because it feeds the uh the boiler so quite so that's exactly where i'm going next it goes if you trace the line around
00:51:59 around all the way around to the top right the top uh left-hand corner we see in red new boilers
00:52:07 so it feeds those new boilers if we look right at the bottom of uh in the south
00:52:14 the south east corner we see there's two valves one is called a low pressure safety valve
00:52:22 valve and there's another valve along and someone's marked it up with the word ecv in black text have you found that yes now if i've understood your evidence correctly
00:52:33 correctly cadence responsibility for that pipe ends at that ecv is that if that's correct if that is if that diagram is correct that that's the ecv
00:52:42 ecv that would be the end of caden's responsibility for that pipe if that diagram's correct then yes it would be i understand now just to help us understand this this supply goes to the
00:52:54 understand this this supply goes to the boilers
00:52:55 boilers does that mean that the gas is used to heat water and then that hot water then travels up to the flats have i understood that correctly you have yes uh
00:53:06 have yes uh in other words this surface doesn't provide any live gas into the flats all of the gas stays in the basement for this service that's correct right now just before we leave this supply
00:53:18 leave this supply um can we just have figure six back up on the screen please if it's not already uh have you got that you've got yes you have that mr harrison if we
00:53:30 yes you have that mr harrison if we trace that round we see on the bottom we see a label saying automatic isolation valve and do you can you tell us what an
00:53:42 and do you can you tell us what an automatic isolation valve would do so if there was either an excess flow of gas or no flow of gas into the building that
00:53:50 that would isolate automatically and this might be an obvious question but does it do that automatically sorry i believe so yeah i mean we've got what we call
00:54:01 mean we've got what we call a low pressure safety valve which would drop if the pressure the gas network dropped that would turn off and then automatic isolation valve would be
00:54:10 be automatically operated and could could that perhaps be connected to the automatic opening vent system the smoke control system for example i i don't know how the smoke
00:54:21 for example i i don't know how the smoke control system works but in theory would that be one way in which an aiv could be operated it could be i now want to look at the residential supply one
00:54:33 residential supply one can we return to figure four on page 14 of mr hancock's report
00:54:41 now at the top of this diagram on the east side we see a red service pipe marked i'm going to call it residential supply 1 as i've already indicated
00:54:50 indicated i think that might be a four inch screwed steel service is that your understanding that is my understanding yes and like the landlord supply it comes in
00:55:01 and like the landlord supply it comes in underground and it enters the basement at high level is that right that is right and but unlike the landlord supply it doesn't drop down it just stays up high in the basement is that right yes
00:55:14 high in the basement is that right yes now if we follow that red line along in this diagram we see it goes to four corners
00:55:19 corners four compass corners and it goes into these pale blue boxes which have variously got the description of riser
00:55:27 of riser can you explain what happens to the pipe work when it goes into those pale blue boxes
00:55:33 boxes as the so that's uh supply pipe work is horizontal as it goes into those blue boxes um there would be a 90 degrees degree bend and the pipe would rise vertically
00:55:44 vertically i see and can we actually go to your inquiry exhibit number 13 cad 402993
00:55:56 and you've provided us with some photographs of the pipe work and you've marked them up with the word viv what does bif stand for and that's a branch isolation valve and what does
00:56:07 branch isolation valve and what does that do
00:56:07 that do that is a way of isolating a section of the riser network and is we see that variously it's pointing to a yellow wheel is that how the booth is operated it is
00:56:19 is that how the booth is operated it is yeah you turn that that wheel to to operate the valve when would a cadent engineer operate a biv um for maintenance purposes within the building and should be
00:56:31 and should be fitted to branches of the service pipeline they should be yes now thinking about how the service pipework traveled through grenfell tower we saw that there were the four rises
00:56:42 we saw that there were the four rises and we can see the four biffs in this picture here i believe that two of those rises before they got to the older residential flats they then split in two again making six separate rises is that right
00:56:55 making six separate rises is that right yes
00:56:56 yes now each floor has six flats so that's one riser per each vertical line of flats is that yes and as they come up i believe they go from flat to flat through the floor and
00:57:08 from flat to flat through the floor and ceilings of each flat that's correct can we now go to figure 18
00:57:14 18 on page 26 of mr hancock's report rhx 6012
00:57:25 and this is a drawing of a typical floor at grenfell tower we can see on the starting at the top right
00:57:33 right we can see flats with numbers ending in six
00:57:36 six and if we go clockwise flats with numbers ending in one flats with numbers ending in two and so on and in each flat we can see a royal blue box
00:57:48 we can see a royal blue box which is labeled gas riser cupboard or at least in most of the flats we can see that
00:57:54 that if we look specifically at flats with numbers
00:57:57 numbers ending in one on the east side have you found that mr harrison yes so we see the gas riser cupboard and it appears to me to be in a cupboard
00:58:10 and it appears to me to be in a cupboard in the kitchen or living area and i think
00:58:14 think this indicates that the gas comes into the cupboards in the flats via the riser is that right yes would it then travel to that red box which says gas meter
00:58:26 that red box which says gas meter location
00:58:27 location yeah there would be a lateral pipe going to that meter location right and does it then have would it then have
00:58:35 then have work going to the gas appliances the cookers
00:58:38 cookers it would there would be a ecv a meter and then there would be the gas appliances i see and residential supply one
00:58:46 one was just for cooking wasn't it it was yes
00:58:52 can we return perhaps for one last time to figure
00:58:55 to figure four at page 14 of mr hancock's report
00:59:01 we can see in bright green there there's a supply called residential gas supply 2 and is this the new service that was installed in 2016 and 17
00:59:14 installed in 2016 and 17 it is yes and we can see that it goes straight to the southeast riser is that right
00:59:22 if you travel yes i can see that yeah so if you take the green line across and then you travel down and then across it goes up into that blue box southeast riser do you see yes can we go to your
00:59:34 yes can we go to your inquiry exhibit 11 cad 402991
00:59:44 now this is um your diagram with the valves on it and on the left hand side the top valve is called an iiv do you see that
00:59:58 valve is called an iiv do you see that have you found that i can see that you can see it's pointing to
01:00:01 to a valve inside the building what is what is an iv that's an inlet isolation valve
01:00:10 valve and i've observed that it seems to be inside the building would they always be inside the building yes as opposed to a piv which is outside the building is that right correct
01:00:21 the building is that right correct yes now we can see a picture of one that was installed at grenfell tower in mr hancock's expert report
01:00:29 report rhx 6012 page 29
01:00:36 and we see figure 21 is that an iv it is yes are they required in multi-occupancy buildings
01:00:47 multi-occupancy buildings yes now we saw residential supply 2 has an iiv but residential supply one the older supply did not
01:00:58 supply did not is that because they weren't required in the 1970s when grenfell tower was built um i believe so yes the there were regulations in the late 60s and then there was the regulations in
01:01:10 and then there was the regulations in december 72 that did not require that yeah but they've become a requirement more recently they have yes can we go to mr hancock's report rhx6012
01:01:23 can we go to mr hancock's report rhx6012 at page 31 please
01:01:28 now this is a simplified diagram of how residential supply 2 goes through the tower
01:01:34 tower this diagram is actually taken from dr barbara lane but it shows i think that the riser went vertically up until
01:01:45 went vertically up until the residential floors started it then turned and entered the singles the protected stairway and it went up through the stairs is that right
01:01:56 that right that is correct yes and we can get a sense of that if we go to tri60287
01:02:13 and this is a photograph that's been marked up it's part of the design process
01:02:19 process what we see is a yellow line which demonstrates how the riser was meant to go through the stairs we can see there'd be a hole in the landing and in the ceiling
01:02:30 the ceiling and then there'd be yellow lines branching off and they would be the laterals going off towards the flats do you have i described that correctly yeah that's a general general representation of where the pilots would
01:02:41 representation of where the pilots would go
01:02:42 go yes well let's have a picture of how that would look it's tri five one
01:02:52 can we have that rotated
01:03:01 thank you and i think we can see it might be a little dark at the bottom it comes through the floor it goes up it goes through the ceiling and we can see a branch the black pipe
01:03:13 and we can see a branch the black pipe going from left to right of this pic of this picture is that is that right
01:03:20 right yes that's correct yeah now we can get a sense of what it looks like if we go to uh when it was built on the other side if we go to rhx
01:03:31 back to mr hancock's report at page 152.
01:03:38 yes so the top left picture is the lateral pipe going from the stairs into the lobbies the top right picture is if you're standing in the lobby
01:03:50 standing in the lobby so it comes through the stairs and into the lobby and the picture beneath those shows how those pipe works how that pipe work will travel from the left
01:04:02 work will travel from the left it comes through the stair wall travels around at the top of the ceiling all the way around to the flat where it drops down and on the right hand of the picture you can see
01:04:13 picture you can see where the pipe would have gone into the flats
01:04:16 flats is that right is that your understanding that is yes and to see that as a drawing can we go to page 26 of this report
01:04:32 and what we can see here if we can just expand figure 18 the bottom left hand corner we can see residential gas supply system two starting at the top of that green line that's it coming through
01:04:44 green line that's it coming through the stairs it travels along the stair wall
01:04:48 wall through the stair wall and then around the top
01:04:52 the top of the ceiling within the communal lobbies
01:04:56 lobbies it then goes into that green box that is now labeled gas meter location that's that's a diagram of what we've just seen isn't it yeah where it goes through we haven't
01:05:07 yeah where it goes through we haven't seen the gas meter location but we know we're going to come to that yes there's that gas meter location
01:05:14 location i understand is it's there because it was moved from where it had originally been if you look at the
01:05:22 the blue box in flats ending in two it says redundant
01:05:25 redundant gas riser cupboard do you see that i do yes
01:05:28 yes that i believe was the old meter location
01:05:32 location and gas meters were moved during works in 2016 and 17. is that right yes similar to the other reds and blues they would have been close to each other
01:05:43 they would have been close to each other yes when you say they would be close to each other you mean the the meter in the riser the meter and the riser yes and it would be as close to the
01:05:51 to the external wall as possible for for access reasons perhaps um yeah that would have been the the most sensible place to put the meters when the building was constructed
01:06:03 meters when the building was constructed and there'd be an ecv at the meter there would be before the meter before the meter then you have the meter and then you have some more green pipes coming across inside the flat
01:06:15 pipes coming across inside the flat and i think that would be installation pipe work going to the gas appliances because the meter was moved they then have to run some pipes back to where the cookers are is that is that right that's correct but caden
01:06:26 is that right that's correct but caden wouldn't be responsible for those pipelines that would be a matter for gas safety checks done by the landlord and gas and the gas safe engineers right now you've already explained to us about
01:06:38 now you've already explained to us about generally what reactive and proactive works
01:06:42 works are can we in this report can we go to page
01:06:46 page 32 please can i just ask you i'm sorry i'd quite like to have that previous diagram back um the green line that we can see there
01:06:58 the green line that we can see there seems to take a very circuitous route and doesn't make any use of the redundant gas riser cupboard
01:07:04 cupboard is there any reason that you can see for that yes we the the gas riser cupboard would have been constructed when the tower was constructed and it would have been inaccessible for our or
01:07:16 our or the replacement pipe work right yes all right thank you thank you so much we'll certainly be exploring a lot of the detail that we have that with mr dolan
01:07:26 dolan all right thank you very much um when we get to
01:07:30 get to page 32 we can see what the riser looked like before it was boxed in we can see the pipe going around there
01:07:41 we can see the pipe going around there and at the end of each device at the end of each pipe we can see some yellow devices do you see those i do yes can you explain what they are um they're
01:07:52 can you explain what they are um they're what we call lateral isolation valves or tailor valves and we used those to isolate pipes going along those laterals and the end of the well actually just
01:08:03 and the end of the well actually just pausing there can you tell me how would how would they be operated by turning and who would be able to turn those um i cadent engineers or gas safe engineers will the consumer be able to turn
01:08:15 will the consumer be able to turn these lateral isolation valves no we would not expect the consumer to turn those
01:08:21 those in this picture we can see it's been marked plugged valve for future extension now was that because
01:08:28 because this pipe work was eventually supposed to serve
01:08:31 to serve all of the flats that wanted gas in the building so all the flats with numbers ending in one or five yeah so the the plan was to do some
01:08:42 yeah so the the plan was to do some proactive replacement work for the remaining assets in the building the other risers in the building and we we call it connected onto so we would have connected that pipe work onto those those plugged valves so
01:08:55 those those plugged valves so would i be right to say that the work to reinstate gas as we'll hear was cut off
01:09:01 off to flat sending in two that work would be called
01:09:06 be called reactive work reactive in the sense that we
01:09:10 we we we reacted following our survey which was proactive um to go and um replace the gas pipe but you would call the
01:09:21 the works connecting onto that original riser you would call that proactive work i would yes and that's perhaps we could call it scheduled activity is that that's fair
01:09:34 scheduled activity is that that's fair yes
01:09:35 yes um so i've come to a convenient moment for a break well in that case we'll have the break thank you very much sir um mr harrison we as you were told earlier we have a break during the
01:09:46 earlier we have a break during the morning and this is a convenient time to take it okay so we'll stop now we'll resume please at half fast eleven and i have to ask you please on this and other occasions when you leave the room
01:09:57 other occasions when you leave the room please don't talk to anyone about your evidence
01:10:00 evidence or anything relating to it while you're out of the room no i won't all right thank you very much would you like to go to the usher she'll look after you thank you
01:10:16 after you thank you thank you how fast you live please
01:27:42 would you ask mr harrison to come back in please
01:27:57 right mr harrison ready to carry on yes good thank you yes thank you sir mr harrison i'm turning now to look at the events that led to residential supply 2 being installed at grenfell tower in
01:28:09 being installed at grenfell tower in 2016 and 17. just to look a little bit at the history of this um had there been a survey of grenfell tower to the best of your
01:28:20 grenfell tower to the best of your knowledge
01:28:20 knowledge in 2008 they had yes and would that have been again to the best of your knowledge part of the 10-year
01:28:28 10-year rolling survey program it would have been part of the rolling survey program yes and was there another attempt to survey grenfell tower in 2015.
01:28:39 to survey grenfell tower in 2015. there was yes was that completed no we couldn't gain access to the tower and was that because of the building works that were ongoing at that time i believe so but i'm not 100 certain
01:28:52 i believe so but i'm not 100 certain for the reference of the record we can see a document about that at cad 402973
01:29:03 at cad 402973 which is the attempted survey in 2015. now if there'd been a survey in 2008 and there was one again in 2015 that was only seven years
01:29:14 only seven years between uh a seven-year interval between surveys would that also have been a ten-year
01:29:21 ten-year survey i i don't know i i think our approach to um the survey frequencies changed around 2006 2007
01:29:32 frequencies changed around 2006 2007 which may have had an impact to it been seven years but i don't know for sure thank you in any event there was a survey into in september 2016
01:29:43 survey into in september 2016 to the best of your knowledge was this survey done as part of caden's rolling survey program it was done yes in other words it wasn't an emergency it was just routine no it was a routine plan survey
01:29:55 routine no it was a routine plan survey can we now go to your first inquiry statement at cad402985 i just want to remind you about what you say about this survey
01:30:06 say about this survey at page seven please paragraph 26
01:30:12 the engineers spent one day surveying the gas assets at the tower they conducted an external sweep of the building to check for the presence of gas entered and inspected the basement where
01:30:23 entered and inspected the basement where the two existing gas supplies entered the tower
01:30:26 the tower and also gained access and inspected 51 of the 120 flats within the tower and just pausing there that means if my maths is correct that
01:30:38 that means if my maths is correct that you surveyed or cadence surveyed about 42 and a half percent of the flats under half of them is that right
01:30:46 yes we got access to 40 to that volume correct
01:30:50 correct yes would that be an average ratio of how many flats you would see in a building of this size i'd actually that's reasonably high but yeah i see and the problem as i
01:31:02 but yeah i see and the problem as i understand you said access is correct yes i see if we just go back to page 20 to go to stay on this page it's paragraph 27 the next paragraph along you say it was during this inspection
01:31:14 you say it was during this inspection that a small leak was detected the engineers reported the leak to the emergency gas leak team and requested the attendance of a repair team to isolate the riser in accordance with caden's procedures
01:31:26 in accordance with caden's procedures the riser where the gas leak was identified was isolated the gas supply it provided was cut off one of the engineers stayed on site until cadence repair team arrived and
01:31:37 until cadence repair team arrived and isolated the riser this was achieved by closing the branch isolation valve which is located in the basement of the tower and cutting and capping the riser to stop the flow of gas this was done in
01:31:48 to stop the flow of gas this was done in the early hours of the 1st of october 2016
01:31:52 2016 and the other rises within the tower were unaffected now i understand that small leak was discovered between flats 32 and 22 which i think is floor six and
01:32:03 and 22 which i think is floor six and five is that right yes so just tell me visualize that was that leak
01:32:08 that leak in the floor between the flats the floor and ceiling between the front yeah i believe it was between in the concrete yeah absolutely between the floor and the ceiling of the the floor and the scene of the class above is that a common
01:32:20 above is that a common phenomenon um yeah we it it it's um it is i wouldn't have said common but that is one of the areas where um we often get deterioration
01:32:32 deterioration it's something that can happen it can happen and is that a result of the pipe being within the concrete or is there other factors at play no not necessarily um there could be a water leak which
01:32:45 um there could be a water leak which would cause the pipe to corrode sometimes our pipes get vandalized that could have caused it to leak
01:32:52 leak i see i'm unlikely to be vandalized between the floors of flats it's unlikely but has happened i see now you say in your written evidence that the riser was isolated would that be the natural
01:33:06 isolated would that be the natural result of finding a leak in a building of this size and type yeah our engineers would attempt to what we call cut out so you can put a bypass arrangement in
01:33:18 bypass arrangement in past the the section and then replace that with a completely new section of pipe
01:33:22 pipe um that's one option if that was um you know if that wasn't successful or if we didn't think we could do that then we would isolate the the riser and then the flats
01:33:33 flats feeding off that would lose their gas supply it seems to be quite a difficult thing to do to put a bypass where the riser goes between floors or flats though doesn't it it is
01:33:44 flats though doesn't it it is it is difficult which is why in this occasion we had to isolate the whole riser
01:33:49 riser why wouldn't cadent repair the leak because we couldn't get access um to do the bypass that we talked about right there wouldn't be an opportunity to just say
01:34:00 to just say that pipe between those two floors has had a leak can we pull that pipe out and put in
01:34:06 put in a fresh one yeah that's so that would be the bypass i see we can put equipment around our pipe
01:34:13 pipe but but getting access to that was difficult because of the concrete arrangement in the floor right so was that not access in terms of flat owners it was accessed in terms of the concrete so it creates access to our
01:34:26 the concrete so it creates access to our pipe to fix it right and when it was isolated i i think you've already covered this but does that have the effect that all of the flats ending in two that had been using the gas could no
01:34:38 that had been using the gas could no longer use it no they yes you're right the gas supply was isolated
01:34:45 excuse me can we now go to the survey that was conducted that's at cad
01:34:54 cad 6031 and can we have that in the native format please
01:35:11 thank you can we start at the first tab please which is use yes now this do you recognize this type of document as being the lc21
01:35:23 this type of document as being the lc21 survey spreadsheet i do yes at least as it was in 2016. correct yes as it was in 2016.
01:35:30 2016. thank you now would you personally have been dealing with these sorts of spreadsheets in 2016 no i can i take it though that you're broadly familiar with
01:35:41 broadly familiar with these sorts of surveys given your written evidence i am yes thank you can we go to the tab called starting with one building description
01:35:55 thank you and we can see at the top row row one column i that there's a date on it and it's the 30th of september 2016.
01:36:06 can we now go to the tab called three riser information
01:36:17 thank you have you got that mr harrison i have yes great can we go to column b we can see a list with which says r1 r2 r3 and so forth
01:36:29 with which says r1 r2 r3 and so forth is that a list of the service pipe work that goes
01:36:33 that goes into residential supply one well that was residential supply one yes using the terminology you used earlier about some sort of supply and service pipe work
01:36:44 sort of supply and service pipe work that would cover that albeit we have a riser one there which is actually the the horizontal pipe going into the building
01:36:51 building i follow i thought so this would be an example of a horizontal pipe that's called the riser correct i see um the rest of them though they're the vertical pipes that go up as we've described earlier so the four
01:37:02 we've described earlier so the four going up and then the split into six yes i see
01:37:06 i see can we track across to column k please
01:37:12 and we can see in column k it's headed material
01:37:17 material have you found that yes and we can see that there's painted steel and beneath that the rest of them are bare steel and in the next column along column l
01:37:29 and in the next column along column l we can see a percentage visible and we see 75 to 100 visible for the top one so that would be the
01:37:40 for the top one so that would be the riser going into the basement but almost all of the others are 25 to 50 percent except for one which is 50 to 75 percent can you explain what percentage visible
01:37:53 can you explain what percentage visible means
01:37:54 means so that's the percentage of the riser that could be seen by our engineers in order for them to conduct their survey and what would it be that would prevent them from seeing the riser it could be um that the riser
01:38:08 the riser it could be um that the riser is boxed in in some areas uh it could be that we couldn't get into the flats to see them but the majority of the cases is where it's boxed in these rises were built in the
01:38:19 boxed in these rises were built in the fabric of the building so sometimes getting access to them is problematic when you say boxed in we saw a picture earlier of inside the communal lobbies where there's board boxing them in
01:38:31 there's board boxing them in do you mean that sort of boxing in or do you mean other kinds of box skins so it's concrete i mean other kinds of boxing in um in that it would be it was in a utility shaft or in a shaft
01:38:42 it was in a utility shaft or in a shaft within the fabric of the building yeah rather than a um a a wooden boxing in that you could remove to inspect because one of the things and we can go back to it if we need to one of the things we can observe about the boxing in
01:38:53 in in the communal lobbies is that there's screws so you can take the the wooden or the the material off yeah have a look yes or indeed operate the lateral isolation valve but you're not talking about that sort
01:39:04 but you're not talking about that sort of boxing in either i'm not no talking about in the fabric of the building i am yes i see does that mean that for those pipes the surveyor couldn't really tell what the condition was he couldn't see the pipe and therefore
01:39:16 he couldn't see the pipe and therefore couldn't make an assessment so yes you're correct can i just ask if a pipe is boxed in within the fabric of the building as you described is the pipe as it were free within some
01:39:28 is the pipe as it were free within some um void in in built into the building or is it actually within the concrete and now it's free within the void within the building rather than encased in the concrete
01:39:39 rather than encased in the concrete right but you can't get at it because the
01:39:42 the the um void is created within a concrete structure
01:39:45 structure yes yes a plasterboard now the construction material would be around around the riser well plasterboard you could
01:39:53 could would get into you'd have to break in there wouldn't you would yes yes right thank you or alternatively there could be an access panel in yes we do have some with access panels
01:40:04 yes we do have some with access panels in them
01:40:05 in them now in the next column column m we can see
01:40:09 see pipe environment and we see that it's localized dampness so within what could be visible the am i right that that is the environment
01:40:22 am i right that that is the environment that it was in yes that's correct now does that represent
01:40:27 represent any particular risk being dab
01:40:34 per se no but over a period of time dampness can lead to corrosion of a pipe well actually let's just take a step back does what does localized dampness mean specifically i think
01:40:45 specifically i think in this example localized dampness would mean
01:40:49 mean a smaller area of the of the riser or the pipework that we could see was impacted by by the dampness
01:40:56 dampness rather than running water or a significant amount of darkness within the
01:41:01 the what would the surveyor say if there were a significant amount of dampness or running water or um he would make or she would make reference to water that he called running water or something of that nature
01:41:12 something of that nature right right would we saw in one of the columns column k that some of the pipes were bare steel and some of the pipes were painted steel
01:41:23 and some of the pipes were painted steel does the material make any difference to any risks
01:41:28 any risks that are in the pipe work of buildings the the material will will protect the pipe work from from levels of corrosion and would bear steel i mean i'm i'm
01:41:39 and would bear steel i mean i'm i'm guessing
01:41:40 guessing but would bear steel be more of a risk factor than painted steel yes it would right can we go to a tab called for lateral information
01:41:58 great and column b we can see has a list of l1 to l6 now does that describe
01:42:09 now does that describe the different laterals for each of the different flats going into each of the six flats on each floor
01:42:15 floor yeah yeah we called them lateral grooves so each riser had a lateral group attached to it right and if we go across to column e
01:42:27 and if we go across to column e we can see a list of numbers for each of those lateral groups and on lateral one for example we can see five numbers for example 56
01:42:38 we can see five numbers for example 56 86 and so forth now is that a list of the flats that were inspected for that lateral group
01:42:52 i believe so perhaps if you look at column d it might help because column d says number of laterals in the group which have been surveyed we see five
01:43:03 which have been surveyed we see five then we go to column e and it says flat dwelling numbers and we see a list of numbers does that indicate to you and it's perfectly acceptable if you're not sure to say so
01:43:15 to say so but does that indicate to you that those were the flats that were inspected it it indicates that to me yes but i've just summoned up the numbers in
01:43:26 but i've just summoned up the numbers in d
01:43:26 d um and i didn't get to 51.
01:43:31 so you've added up the numbers in d and you get to 51. i didn't no you didn't
01:43:40 i think it might be but um okay but yes so the
01:43:44 so the if that's right those would be the flats right if we track across to column
01:43:54 to column m
01:44:00 um can we have the screen where cops are column m slightly more in the center
01:44:11 thank you we can see in that first row it's little obscured but it says if laterals are made of steel have you found that i have yes right and in column o we can
01:44:24 i have yes right and in column o we can see
01:44:24 see corrosion level and it says some of them are superficial but we can see
01:44:30 see two of them have severe corrosion now can you just explain what severe corrosion is
01:44:41 corrosion is we have three different levels of corrosion
01:44:45 corrosion moderate severe or extreme and severe corrosion is a is a measure of corrosion which may or could
01:44:52 could infect the integrity of the pipe um we saw the word superficial do i understand on that you said there's only three but in reality perhaps there's four because there's superficial
01:45:03 there's superficial yeah i think i'll cover this in my statement um but yes superficial would be
01:45:08 be superficial it wouldn't have any impact on the integrity of the the asset so when you say that there are three levels of corrosion would it be right to say there's three levels that cadent would pay attention to or pay
01:45:19 cadent would pay attention to or pay particular attention to starting with moderate i would yes and am i right though that the surveyor can really only describe the corrosion level of the work that they've seen is that is that
01:45:31 work that they've seen is that is that fair that is fair that's correct if we look across to column p we can see there are
01:45:37 there are two locations where corrosion has been identified and the numbers 52 and 165 i suggest that those are the flat numbers where corrosion has been found
01:45:49 numbers where corrosion has been found on the laterals is that right yes can we look at column u now row nine we can see have you found it we can see gas leak
01:46:02 have you found it we can see gas leak location
01:46:05 location and we see there listed where that leak had been found 22 and 32 between the flats do you see that i do
01:46:13 that i do yes great can we now go to a tab called five igem and cdm compliance
01:46:24 and we can see here
01:46:28 a list of questions
01:46:32 can i draw your attention to the question on row five which is do all steel vertical pipes have supports at least once every 2.5
01:46:43 have supports at least once every 2.5 meters and the answer is no
01:46:48 and then can we look at question 10 which is
01:46:52 which is does any network pipeline pass through an individual dwelling other than the one it supplies and the answer is yes
01:47:03 question 15 it says are all risers laterals within a space that has adequate natural ventilation answer is no question on row 16
01:47:14 answer is no question on row 16 are all rises lateral sleeved where they pass through a structural element wall floor no
01:47:22 floor no question on row 19 are there any features of the building that are causing damage or deterioration of the ngg's assets answer yes just pausing there can you tell us what
01:47:34 just pausing there can you tell us what ngg stands for that would be national grid gas right and finally just draw your attention to question
01:47:45 20 have any internal lengths been greater than two meters have any internal lengths greater than two meters being found answer yes
01:47:58 actually just one last one question 21 are flexible connectors used within the lateral
01:48:05 lateral to accommodate thermal expansion movement of the riser answer no
01:48:13 i'm just looking back at question you saw the word sleeved can you explain what sleeving is yeah in some of the
01:48:26 yeah in some of the younger assets we have a rise pipe is sleeved as it goes through the flooring of a of a dwelling so that would mean
01:48:37 of a of a dwelling so that would mean that there's um effectively movement space for the pipe to move around within that section so if i've got it right you have the pipe say it's of
01:48:48 pipe say it's of steel yes then there's a donut shaped hole
01:48:52 hole and then there's a another there's like another pipe around it a sleeve around it isn't that right yes and there's there's space between this right please know yeah there's
01:49:03 this right please know yeah there's space between our gas riser and the concrete floor yes and that would be the sleet and there will be a sleeve within there and the sleeve touches the concrete floor yes
01:49:14 floor yes yes and the pipe can move about a bit in the sleeve is that it could a little bit a little bit
01:49:21 now just looking at the title coming back to this document it says i igem compliance now these questions
01:49:32 now these questions might appear to be about whether this installation complied with igem at the time of the survey
01:49:40 survey is that is that right i believe it's did this riser comply with igem g5 at the time of the survey igem g5
01:49:49 g5 2012. yes yeah
01:49:55 now would any of those features the ones i've read out or anything else you can see
01:50:00 see on that part of the page would any of those features give caden calls for concern about this riser
01:50:08 riser with this system so i think we we we'd recognize that the rise was constructed before the current um period of g5 um these answers then go into a priority score
01:50:19 answers then go into a priority score which would then determine how frequently we would go back to the riser
01:50:24 riser some of the the questions about the localized dampness would prompted us to to to plan in the proactive replacement of
01:50:36 to plan in the proactive replacement of the remaining assets in the building right in fact we can see the priority score if we go to input summary tab it's to the right of tab 6 yes that's it
01:50:49 and cell 10 b at the top left of the screen there we can see total building priority score 596 026 do you see that
01:51:02 596 026 do you see that i do yes now i think we said earlier that any score above 210 000 would trigger surveys to be um taken to the hazop meeting is that right
01:51:14 taken to the hazop meeting is that right yes and
01:51:15 yes and perhaps as a result of that there might be more frequent surveys is that correct as well it would be yeah so
01:51:23 so the the risk of changed when the laterals and the riser was isolated but we still processed this through the hazop to see what else we would need to do
01:51:32 do at the at the building right was 596 000 a particularly high school um that was that's i wouldn't say that was particularly high but it's high
01:51:43 was particularly high but it's high enough to kick it into our hazard process
01:51:46 process and for the building to be put onto a an annual survey frequency right in fact let's have a look at what you say about that can we go to cad 402985 this is your first inquiry
01:52:00 402985 this is your first inquiry statement
01:52:05 and can we go to page 8 please paragraph 31
01:52:11 thank you now you say here a combination of factors contributed to this priority score including and most significantly the small gas leak that was identified
01:52:23 small gas leak that was identified in the concrete screed between flats 22 and 23. just pausing that i think you may mean 32 i think that's a little slip yes the inability to visually identify
01:52:34 yes the inability to visually identify pivs on the supply pipes and the corrosion identified in the laterals as explained above as a result of the gas leak the riser was isolated on the 1st of october 2016.
01:52:46 1st of october 2016. had another lc-21 survey been undertaken on the 1st of october 2016 therefore the priority score would have been significantly reduced
01:52:57 significantly reduced in light of the fact that the riser had been isolated so i take it from that that once the riser was cut and capped to the flat sending in two
01:53:08 and capped to the flat sending in two that would automatically lower the building priority score and i think you've said that in your evidence already yes um now that means that
01:53:19 um now that means that well does that mean that caden therefore doesn't have to survey this building more frequently um
01:53:28 it could do so the building was um if i if i may the building was surveyed in 2015
01:53:35 in 2015 because we couldn't get access it had a very high high score which was 999 000 which was then an annual survey so i i
01:53:46 an annual survey so i i i believe that after those laterals and the rise was isolated it would have gone into a five five-year cycle but i'd need to refer to to more notes and more information of course
01:53:58 notes and more information of course just a as a matter of general cadent approach
01:54:02 approach to these sorts of issues if that had happened does that mean that cadent then doesn't take any further action it would just
01:54:10 just come surely not cut that riser and leave it there
01:54:14 it there no no we would cut that riser replace that riser and then pick up on the other elements that we identified during the survey and is that the what you would do at the hazop meeting process it is yes right and we've seen that in
01:54:27 it is yes right and we've seen that in residential residential supply one we've seen two instances of severe corrosion and we've seen some questions
01:54:35 questions from the igem g5 principles perhaps answered not favorably would that indicate
01:54:42 indicate to cadence that the ongoing use of residential supply one might be in question um it wouldn't suggest that it would suggest that we would either go back and
01:54:54 suggest that we would either go back and routinely serve that riser every year or alternatively given we were in the riser in the building anyway we would take proactive steps to replace the other risers so
01:55:06 risers so using grenfell tower as an example because there'd been a cutting and capping of one line of flats caden then took that opportunity to then
01:55:17 caden then took that opportunity to then proactively replace all of the others is that yes that's that's just what we would normally do i see can we go now to cad 6019
01:55:34 i'm turning now to look at some of the events
01:55:38 events around that cutting and capping isolation
01:55:41 isolation and what happened next really this is an email
01:55:45 email from danny large and we can see at the bottom of the page that he worked for national grid and this email at the top we can see is dated 3rd of
01:55:56 at the top we can see is dated 3rd of october 2016 so it's a few days after the lc 21 survey
01:56:03 survey or 30th of september is that right it is yes
01:56:06 yes now there's an attachment we can see there and it says disconnected mob and it appears in its file name to refer to grenfell tower and at the bottom you can
01:56:19 grenfell tower and at the bottom you can see that mr large has said trio have met with ng on site to confirm project scope now is ng national grid it is yes and do i understand correctly
01:56:30 it is yes and do i understand correctly from this that by the third of october so within a few days trio had been to grenfell tower and had met cadence and there'd been a discussion about the work that trio would do that is correct would you
01:56:44 that is correct would you have described would you describe trio's work at grenfell urgent work i would yes and why was that because we had customers without gas
01:56:55 because we had customers without gas does cadence have to pay customers who are cut off from gas yes through our regulatory kind of regime or contract we pay compensation to customers if their gas
01:57:07 compensation to customers if their gas supply is isolated would you say that cadent is incentivized to restore gas to consumers as soon as possible um at the time of the fire we had a daily
01:57:20 at the time of the fire we had a daily payment
01:57:20 payment that we had to make to customers um i believe
01:57:24 believe it was capped at one month um so i wouldn't have used the word in incentivized for a month it's just part of our regulatory contract for us to us to do that in any event we
01:57:36 for us to us to do that in any event we saw
01:57:36 saw that there'd been very swift action a matter of days before trio and cadence met on the site yes
01:57:44 yes so it may come in the the compensation is more to provide our customers with with money rather than to penalize cadence i see but in any event would you agree that
01:57:56 but in any event would you agree that swift action was taken by yes and would i be fair to characterize that is as being because customers were off gas yes you would
01:58:07 would i see can we go to the pdf form of a document
01:58:12 document code tri501768
01:58:33 when this comes up this will be the attachment page two of it will be the attachment to this email from mr large
01:58:42 thank you we can see at the top of this document you can take it from me that this is a pdf version of the spreadsheet that
01:58:54 of the spreadsheet that mr large sent
01:58:59 i hope we can make that out there's a green box says it's called the riser request
01:59:04 request pro forma and there's a green box under it
01:59:08 it um i'm not sure if we can read it but i'll read out what i think it says i think we've got a clearer version coming up now
01:59:18 thank you that's much clearer under that this green box says this document is classed as the client brief and supports the ongoing compliance to the construction design
01:59:29 compliance to the construction design and
01:59:29 and management regulations 2015 the information contained in this document has been prepared to the best of knowledge of the client and in accordance with
01:59:40 of the client and in accordance with regulation four four now just to clarify again i think you agreed with me that caiden was the client under the cdm yes
01:59:48 yes regulations now below that in the box the green box below that on the left hand side
01:59:54 hand side we can see the date of that document first of october 2016 and we can see the time of cut off which i think is 2 a.m is that your understanding it's my understanding
02:00:05 understanding that it was cut off in the early hours of the morning so that would be correct right and if we scroll midway down to the page we can see supply materials on the left hand side
02:00:16 supply materials on the left hand side and we can see in the yellow box the words supply material steel supply diameter four inches and so forth
02:00:24 forth can you have you found that i have yes and i think that's a description of the pipework that had been cut off it is yes
02:00:32 is yes thank you now beneath that we see height of building we see that it's over 40 meters
02:00:37 meters and the category of job is high rise do you see that i do yes so is this some information about the tower itself it is yes now beneath that we can see
02:00:49 it is yes now beneath that we can see a big list of flat numbers of people who were at the time believed to have been cut off can you see that list i can yes yeah if we look down just to clarify
02:01:02 yeah if we look down just to clarify something we see something on the second line of that says flat number two zero one but i believe that flats ending in one were not
02:01:12 not actually cut off were they they they weren't
02:01:15 weren't so it's just a slip on this form i think that's an error on the form when they were completing it that night yeah morning yes indeed and if we look at the fourth column along entitled uh
02:01:27 along entitled uh yes it's entitled vulnerability identified we can see that there's a few unknowns but then there's a few that have got some confirmed vulnerabilities do
02:01:38 got some confirmed vulnerabilities do you see that i do yes and if we go all the way and look at the far right hand column we can see what appliances the residents used and in
02:01:50 appliances the residents used and in every case it's cooking and a hot plate is that right
02:01:54 right that's correct yes and if we go right to the bottom you can see additional comments 181 171 customers do not use gas
02:02:06 171 customers do not use gas do you see that i i do yes was this a document that cadent would routinely fill in in order to brief trio for works done on the replacement gas
02:02:17 for works done on the replacement gas rises it is yes that this would start off the kind of the handover or setting trio to work right
02:02:24 right well that's what i want to ask you about next actually so we saw that the riser request pro forma was stated to be in accordance with regulation 4 4 of the cdm regulations can we just
02:02:36 4 of the cdm regulations can we just have a quick look at that it's at
02:02:44 inq3011316
02:02:52 thank you and it's at page five please
02:02:57 and regulation four 4 says a client must provide pre-construction information as soon as is practicable to every designer and contractor appointed or being considered for
02:03:09 appointed or being considered for appointment to the project my question is as a matter of practice was the riser request pro forma cadence way
02:03:18 way of providing pre-instruction information under the cdm regulations yes that that started off the kind of that that
02:03:26 that that that can design and construction phase we also had um trio employees working in our offices and they had access to all of our gas pipe material
02:03:37 access to all of our gas pipe material our maps as well so they had other information available to them
02:03:42 to them right but before we get to that we will yeah
02:03:45 yeah one of the experts to this inquiry dr barbara lane has said the riser request pro forma was not on its own sufficient to serve as pre-construction information for the purposes of cdm regulations
02:03:57 for the purposes of cdm regulations 2015.
02:03:58 2015. i think you've answered this question really would cadent have expected trio to supplement this information handed over
02:04:07 over with further information that it gathered yes we we would have and are you aware if trio
02:04:14 trio did in fact supplement this information before commencing any construction works um
02:04:20 um i i believe they would have done yes because they needed to know where the gas pipes were that fed to the tower right and to what extent would trio be expected to engage with the building
02:04:32 be expected to engage with the building owner so for example the tmo in gathering that sort of information um so i guess cadent would have been expected to provide some information for the pre-construction information
02:04:45 for the pre-construction information but once the construction the design work had started or the design work has started
02:04:50 started we would also expect trio to liaise with the tmo
02:04:53 the tmo um and and other people that would operate within the building
02:04:58 right so even if these works are urgent because you had customers off gas would you agree that it's important to gather proper and complete information before any construction is
02:05:10 information before any construction is started
02:05:11 started um i agree that you need to have full information or as much information as you could before construction would started yet and that has to be done early in the project under the cdm regulations doesn't it
02:05:23 regulations doesn't it i don't i'm not the expert on cdn but i believe it does say that yes right there's just one other point i want to ask you about with regards to the cdm regulations
02:05:34 with regards to the cdm regulations while we're here and it's about f10 notification do you know what i mean by f10 notification um yes that's the notification to the hsc
02:05:45 hsc and when do you give notification to the hsc
02:05:48 hsc for construction works like this yeah so if it's over say 30 days you would notify
02:05:53 notify hsc now mr mason has said in his second inquiry statement that a project specific f10 doesn't appear to have been submitted to
02:06:05 doesn't appear to have been submitted to the hsc
02:06:06 the hsc for the grenfell tower works as far as you know
02:06:11 you know should notice have been submitted to the hsc for these works yes it should have do you accept that that was caden's duty as client to give that notice i believe it was yes
02:06:24 to give that notice i believe it was yes i want to talk now about buyout and we've seen that there was an almost immediate instruction or certainly an initial contact with trio in the first few days
02:06:35 trio in the first few days but at the same time i understand there were conversations about buying out the gas through october and november 2016. can you explain to us what
02:06:46 2016. can you explain to us what buying out gas means yes sometimes when when we have to isolate buildings
02:06:54 buildings the customers don't want to have gas in there
02:06:57 there we don't think we can get gas put back into the building so we would enter into an arrangement with the customers to see whether they wanted to
02:07:07 wanted to in fact have have a payment made for the gas to be removed from their properties
02:07:14 now would cadent for a building like this would cadent always consider buying out gas not always i mean if we could
02:07:25 could design and have a new riser put back into the building then we would do that because we have a number of customers um within the building um and obviously obviously our section 10 requirements
02:07:36 obviously our section 10 requirements through the gas act as well would would present us to to get gas back into the building when you say section 10 just to be clear that's when you're talking about the 23 meters the duty to connect at 23
02:07:49 the 23 meters the duty to connect at 23 meters horizontally is that right that's correct right um now you've mentioned
02:07:54 mentioned customers when you say customers in this situation we have the tmo and we have a number of individual gas consumers in each of the flats who exactly do you mean by
02:08:06 flats who exactly do you mean by customers
02:08:07 customers when i talk about customers i mean the people in the individual flats right right can we go to uh stephen mason's statement cad 40305
02:08:22 statement cad 40305 page seven
02:08:31 and it's paragraph 22 that i'm looking at
02:08:36 at and he says following the isolation of riser 2
02:08:40 riser 2 there were two options in respect of that element of the gas supply at the tower
02:08:44 tower one option was to no longer supply gas for cooking to the building and compensate or buy out all gas customers within the building for this this compensation would enable customers
02:08:56 this compensation would enable customers to swap to electrical appliances for cooking purposes this option was only considered viable if all consumers using gas within the tower agree to the change
02:09:07 change not just those served by riser 2 and the owner or tenant management organization if we can go over the page
02:09:17 or tmo agreed to it cayden's experience has been that it is very challenging and time-consuming to obtain universal agreement
02:09:28 agreement and was also mindful that whilst this issue was being discussed with the customers
02:09:32 customers supplied by the isolated riser 2 would remain
02:09:35 remain off gas without a gas supply for cooking so as far as you are aware is that the policy or at least the usual approach of cadence
02:09:47 cadence that is that was the usual approach yes can we it's just staying on page eight there can we look at paragraph 23 where mr mason says throughout october
02:09:58 where mr mason says throughout october and november 2016 the potential for a buyout was the subject of ongoing discussions with the kensington and chelsea tenants management organization kctmo which manages the tower it was concluded
02:10:11 which manages the tower it was concluded by cadence in november 2016 that a buyout was unachievable as it was unlikely that the required agreement of all gas users in the tower would be obtained as the majority of
02:10:24 would be obtained as the majority of them
02:10:24 them still use their gas supply is that is that some
02:10:28 that some your understanding that steve mason's evidence is that your understanding of what happened that's my understanding um but steve was um
02:10:37 um in charge of that operation at the time so i believe that would be the most accurate account i understand um i just want to ask about the decision-making process of buying out specifically can we go to cad
02:10:54 6048
02:11:08 now
02:11:12 maybe an error at the top i'm expecting an email yes this is correct
02:11:22 um now in the last paragraph here this is an email from mr kelly i believe he's and a cadent employee is that right
02:11:33 that right he was and he's written to mr smith and i believe he was from trio
02:11:40 trio is that your understanding that is my understanding yes now in the last paragraph he says with regard to the buyout it will be difficult to present any figures to the
02:11:52 difficult to present any figures to the tmo as national grid or cadent has not seen any costing to assist in understanding the commercial viability can we now go to before i ask you a question on that can we now go and
02:12:04 question on that can we now go and see cad 6058
02:12:15 the second email down we can see it starts on 16th of november yes
02:12:22 yes timed 1912 is from mary ryan and i understand mary ryan was a
02:12:30 a was an employee of cadent correct and she's written to the tmo you can take that from me and she says from the second paragraph
02:12:41 and she says from the second paragraph down
02:12:42 down with reference to your first point on compensation all gas users will be entitled to them excuse me to the maximum guaranteed standard of services compensation of 1 500 pounds please accept my
02:12:55 of 1 500 pounds please accept my apologies for not receiving any firm information from trio to date on either a resolution or buyout proposal
02:13:03 proposal the decision on whether a buyout is viable solution to a viable solution rests with myself on behalf of national grid based on the cost of replacement
02:13:14 cost of replacement versus compensation to gas users is there any information you could share on confirmed gas users within the building to expedite this option
02:13:25 to expedite this option and just for completeness can we scroll to the very top and we can see that mr kelly has written and corrected her on the amount of compensation which i think she's gotten
02:13:38 compensation which i think she's gotten incorrectly just one thousand pounds not one thousand five hundred but really dealing with the substance of those two emails is ms ryan correct that the decision
02:13:49 is ms ryan correct that the decision whether to buy out or not rests with cadence and cadent alone so the decision whether to buy out would would be a cadent decision um but we would base that decision on
02:14:02 um but we would base that decision on information we had from um the tmo in terms of the number of gas users
02:14:07 users and also trio on the design of the riser right
02:14:11 right we'll come on to trio and their design but she said that this was based on the cost of replacement versus the
02:14:22 replacement versus the cost of compensation can you tell us how does cost feature in the decision-making process um
02:14:33 i so i mean there's the cost to replace the riser
02:14:36 the riser um but to my mind the the cost to replace the riser would far outweigh the compensation there so i i i don't think it is a cost
02:14:47 so i i i don't think it is a cost decision i think it's a decision on um can we
02:14:50 can we get gas restored back into that rise that building right so but does caden do that exercise how much it's going to cost to replace versus um how much
02:15:02 to replace versus um how much the compensation would be and base any of its decision on on cost no i don't i don't think we do so has perhaps miss ryan's misspoke i don't
02:15:15 has perhaps miss ryan's misspoke i don't know about misspoken but i think that's i would i mean obviously that that was the email that she wrote and that was a decision that she she made or a process that she felt were appropriate at the time i i can't comment further on on the
02:15:27 i i can't comment further on on the words that she's no i'm certainly not asking you to get into ms ryan's mind but we can also see that mr kelly mentioned commercial viability
02:15:38 mentioned commercial viability i'd really really want to know what what commercial viability is is cadent concerned with when thinking about buy out so i i don't know what mr kelly was
02:15:49 so i i don't know what mr kelly was thinking
02:15:50 thinking um i i believe he would have been thinking or guess you suspect he would have been thinking what's the cost to replace the riser versus the cost that we would be paying to the customers in
02:16:01 we would be paying to the customers in compensation and am i right listening to your evidence that that's not a predominant factor in cadence decision making on buying out gas
02:16:13 decision making on buying out gas um it's a factor but it's not a predominant factor the the overriding predominant factor is whether we can restore the gas supply in accordance with our current standards
02:16:28 okay can we go to cad 6059 sorry could you help me just with one
02:16:37 one question before we move on too far um we saw from the one of the earlier documents that um cadend approached this on the basis if you buy out the whole building
02:16:49 if you buy out the whole building or or not at all why is it not possible to buy out part of the building which is served by the riser you'd kept um it it would have been possible but it
02:17:00 um it it would have been possible but it cadent would want to remove all of the assets from the building so that we didn't have to carry on surveying it um and keep on visiting that
02:17:09 that why would you need to do that if you'd kept the riser you couldn't have any gas leaks and
02:17:15 leaks and what would be the point um well with with the other five rises we would need to continue to maintain oh you need to retain those yes yeah so we we we could have um you could buy out the riser that fed
02:17:28 um you could buy out the riser that fed the customers that were cut off but we would still have to go and maintain the other risers and naturals within that building
02:17:36 and that would make it uneconomic um i wouldn't say that they cannot make it sort of
02:17:41 sort of impractical really from a um a survey an asset point of view in that we would still have to periodically go back to that building to maintain it
02:17:53 maintain it yeah right thank you very much is there any
02:17:56 any suggestion mr harrison that these pipes where they had some severe corrosion identified and there were some natural ventilation problems is there
02:18:08 natural ventilation problems is there any suggestion that it just would have been better to decommission the other the rest of residential supply one would that have featured in caden's thinking um
02:18:22 if you ask the question again yes i'm i'm
02:18:25 i'm really just trying to develop um mr chairman's point but would it have been
02:18:34 we saw in the survey there were a number of igem g5 questions including for example that there was no natural some difficulties or challenges with natural ventilation
02:18:46 with natural ventilation there was the lack of sleeving those are the sorts of technical requirements i understand to be in the current edition of igem g5
02:18:57 edition of igem g5 when cadent was thinking about what to do
02:19:00 do with grenfell tower would it have featured in anyone's minds that this is a building where we've identified some severe corrosion
02:19:10 corrosion we've got difficult to access pipes really we're looking to decommission all of it
02:19:18 of it and either buy out or replace all of it with a new pipeline yeah i think it um it people considered the the proactive replacement work that was our
02:19:29 proactive replacement work that was our intention to proactively replace the other risers and laterals in the building and would you say that was
02:19:37 was an immediate instinct or an immediate decision that would look at this building and say look there's
02:19:45 there's lots of difficulties with these pipes being in people's flats and immediately start thinking we need to replace or we need to decommission residential
02:19:56 or we need to decommission residential supply one and buy it out i don't think we would consider we think we need to decommission it i think we would go down the steps that we took to plan the replacement of the other gas rises and laterals in the building
02:20:08 gas rises and laterals in the building but once
02:20:09 but once residential supply 2 the new riser was built
02:20:13 built that would mean residential supply 1 would be completely replaced wouldn't it decommission you wouldn't there'd be no point of keeping those pipes anymore so so once the riser that we
02:20:25 so so once the riser that we cut off was replaced that would restore the gas supply to the 13 properties that had their gas supply isolated the other remaining properties were would continue to be fed from the
02:20:36 would continue to be fed from the um the the the the gas supply that was built which was constructed yeah we would then arrange to have their supplies transferred on to the
02:20:47 their supplies transferred on to the newly constructed gas pipe that was our intention and then once that those proactive works were done then there'd be no need for the old 1970s pipes anymore no we would cut
02:20:58 1970s pipes anymore no we would cut those off yeah so you decommission those once everyone had gas fry the new pipe the rest the old pipes would have no purpose they'd be redundant correct and i presume caden would make
02:21:10 correct and i presume caden would make them safe
02:21:11 them safe and not ever use them again is that right
02:21:15 right they would cut and cap those pipes and we would have a new riser installed in the building that would be providing gas to all the gas users in that building right and once that was done there'd be
02:21:26 right and once that was done there'd be no need to survey those old pipes again that that would just be i don't know how you'd put it perhaps you said dead correct
02:21:32 correct we would either remove them or isolate them
02:21:35 them fill them with a material and they would never need to survey them from carrying gas point of view very well in fact can we go to a document that perhaps mr chairman was thinking about and it's
02:21:47 mr chairman was thinking about and it's cad 6059
02:21:55 cad 6059 and at the bottom of page one we see an email on the 17th of november timed 1419 and there it is this is again from ms ryan to martin
02:22:06 this is again from ms ryan to martin wisconn
02:22:07 wisconn and i understand he's a trio employee is that your understanding um yes it is yes and she says unfortunately your colleagues have been
02:22:18 unfortunately your colleagues have been stating that this is a buyout location to the local authority and ng national grid
02:22:24 grid for approximately the last month you were correct we will only buy out a whole building not a single riser etc
02:22:34 and if we scroll up to the top of the page
02:22:38 page martin wiscons written an email and he's i believe that this is internally within trio
02:22:49 is internally within trio he says i've just had confirmation back from mary
02:22:53 from mary that ng will not go for buyout please see below
02:22:57 see below so as at the 17th of november 2016 was that a final decision from cadence on this matter
02:23:08 i'm sorry i don't know looking at this email that appears to be a decision but i don't know what else was considered at the time very well just i guess thinking taking a step back
02:23:21 i guess thinking taking a step back about how caden would approach theirs in this situation if they'd already been a decision that all of the users would eventually be supplied
02:23:33 users would eventually be supplied by the new riser
02:23:36 was it not a little illogical to say that we'd only buy out if the entire building
02:23:45 building is off gas
02:23:49 um i don't think so i think this was more the point of do we get gas back into the building um or not
02:24:00 building um or not um so i i think we we we progressed down the buyout route initially
02:24:08 initially and then realized that we could get a design a compliant riser designed and built and therefore went down the route of
02:24:15 of connecting the other customers who weren't cut off onto the new onto the new riser do i understand from that that there was a question of
02:24:26 from that that there was a question of urgency of getting the consumers off gas back on gas i think there was a need to make a decision whether we would
02:24:37 decision whether we would restore gas to those customers or whether we would buy them out and the other gas users out within the building and would it be right that from this
02:24:48 and would it be right that from this point
02:24:50 point if that you say there's a need to make a decision
02:24:53 decision if from that point of decision whenever it was if it was here or at another time was the option of buy out then just effectively off the table
02:25:04 from reading some of these emails i believe it was yes well in fact trio went on to finalize the design as you've already
02:25:12 already alluded to was there any step in cadence process
02:25:16 process which allowed an evaluation of that design
02:25:21 design against the option of buy out at a later date
02:25:24 date by that i mean once trio had finalized their design was there a step in the process where it would be
02:25:33 would be compared with buyout as as an alternative no no this this decision here would have been
02:25:41 been um the final one if this was the decision here um if trio had come back and said that we can't restore the gas supply into grenfell tower then we would have reopened those
02:25:52 reopened those discussions about buyouts in in that case
02:25:55 case if trio had said we can't do this in a safe and compliant way would that not mean that cadent would have no choice but to buy out yes
02:26:06 would have no choice but to buy out yes it would right and in those situations i suppose i mean you tell me but i suppose it's less up to the consumer deciding it's cadence saying we can't do
02:26:18 deciding it's cadence saying we can't do this
02:26:18 this in a safe and compliant way and this has to be the
02:26:23 to be the the option taken is that fair um it's yes it is fair
02:26:32 um in the case of grenfell tower sorry sorry to keep interrupting you but i may not be the only one who's curious to know the answer to this question you must have had some idea
02:26:44 question you must have had some idea what it was going to cost to have trio replace all these um internal pipeworks from cayden's point of view why wasn't it simply a question
02:26:55 of view why wasn't it simply a question of
02:26:56 of is it going to cost us more to replace the pipe work or buy out the building i mean what other factors were in play um it it would be the customer's
02:27:08 in play um it it would be the customer's um right to have gas the the gas act the section 10 one within 23 meters if
02:27:14 meters if if later down um as a later date somebody wanted to have gas supply then and we had a design that could
02:27:22 could was compliant then we would be we would need to connect those customers yeah i understand very well thank you well actually let's have a look at the gas act so we can understand um exactly what you're what
02:27:33 understand um exactly what you're what you're saying can we go to inq30s
02:27:42 14770 and i'm looking at page 53 please back to page 52 i'm sorry
02:27:53 and we can see section 10 there duty to connect certain premises and section sorry section 10 says that section subsection 1 says subsection 2 below applies to any
02:28:06 says subsection 2 below applies to any premises
02:28:06 premises in an authorized area of a gas transporter which a are situated within 23 meters from a relevant main of the transporter or i'll skip over b and go straight to
02:28:17 or i'll skip over b and go straight to subsection two subject to the provisions of this part and any regulations made under those provisions a gas transporter shall on being required to do so by the owner
02:28:29 on being required to do so by the owner or occupier of any premises to which this subsection applies and there are there are some provisions there
02:28:38 there a in the case of premises falling within paragraph a of subsection one connect the premises to the relevant main and supply and lay pipe that may be necessary for the purpose uh
02:28:50 that may be necessary for the purpose uh for that purpose now is that what we might colloquially call
02:28:54 call the 23 meter rule
02:29:02 yes yes um i i realize you're you're not a lawyer mr mr harrison and that was quite a baffling onslaught of statutory um provision there but
02:29:13 provision there but that that that from a simple reading if we could make a simple reading of that is the duty that you refer to it is yes
02:29:24 is the duty that you refer to it is yes and perhaps we could draw attention to the word shall in subsection two on being required to do so by the owner and occupier of premises and is that what you were getting at
02:29:35 and is that what you were getting at when you were answering the chairman's question
02:29:37 question yes right can we just go down to subsection nine which is on page 53
02:29:46 and that says notwithstanding nothing in subsection two or three above shall be taken as requiring a gas transporter
02:29:57 transporter to connect or to maintain the connection of any of any premises if and can i draw your attention to be circumstances exist by reason of which he's doing so
02:30:08 he's doing so would or might involve danger to the public
02:30:12 public and he has taken all such steps as it would be reasonable to take both to prevent the circumstances from occurring and to prevent them from having
02:30:20 having that effect now as i read that i think the effect of it might be that if there's not a safe route for gas
02:30:32 that if there's not a safe route for gas cadent would be excused its duty of connecting the gas would that be your understanding yes it would and do i understand correctly that if a safety concern
02:30:43 safety concern were flagged say by trio would caden be able to change its decision on buying out the gas even though not all customers agreed or it didn't
02:30:54 not all customers agreed or it didn't make financial sense or there was only one riser cut off at the time yeah so going back to my comment earlier about a um a design that complied with g5
02:31:05 um a design that complied with g5 i believe that would constitute if we could not design it to those regulations then we would not be putting gas back into the building right now in this case
02:31:16 right now in this case the case of grenfell tower cadent told trio there was no possibility for buyout does that not put trio in the position of having to find a route
02:31:27 of having to find a route or fail to assist cadence meeting its duty to connect we would expect trio to find a compliant route
02:31:35 route if they couldn't than they we would expect them to tell us as far as you were aware did trio ever raise any concerns about the safety and compliance of the route that they were proposing
02:31:47 of the route that they were proposing not as far as i'm aware no did
02:31:52 no did trio ever ask for the decision on buyout to be reconsidered by cadent i don't know
02:31:59 just thinking about the tmo could the tmo
02:32:03 tmo have refused to allow the riser replacement works to go ahead and insisted that caden buy out the gas
02:32:16 i don't know where they would stand legally because the tmo i don't think is the building owner very well would let's put it this way would the building owner whoever that may be would the building
02:32:29 whoever that may be would the building owner be able to step in and say to cadence i would prefer you to buy out i i i don't know because it also becomes a um an arrangement with the specific
02:32:40 a um an arrangement with the specific customers as well right do i understand that from that that
02:32:45 that your focus or cadence focus would primarily be on the consumers the consumers in the flats of gas
02:32:55 i wouldn't say primary focus but we you know they're the people that we distribute the gas to so we would they would be expecting to maintain that gas supply and
02:33:07 gas supply and that means i think that if they say we want gas we in this flat want gas and there is a safe let's say the safe
02:33:18 and there is a safe let's say the safe and compliant way of getting the gas up up the stairs as it were then caden would
02:33:23 would take that as kaden would take that the consumer
02:33:26 consumer as being the say so on that connection yes not not for example the building managers
02:33:33 managers or the building owners um the the there were the building owners as well but not the building managers the people that owned the building and owned the dwellings would be the ones
02:33:44 owned the dwellings would be the ones that we would liaise with but predominantly it would be the the customers whose gas supply had been cut off
02:33:50 off i understand what input would caden typically have in designing a replacement riser we wouldn't have any input we would
02:34:01 we wouldn't have any input we would we employed trio as the principal designer and we would hand across the project
02:34:05 project to trio and expect them to design a riser does cadence sign off trio's designs at all no now mr dolan from trio will give
02:34:16 no now mr dolan from trio will give evidence tomorrow to the inquiry and he tells us in his witness statement uh something if we can go to it it's
02:34:25 tri401797 at page seven paragraph 28.
02:34:37 at paragraph 28 at the bottom of the page
02:34:40 page he says fire safety was considered by trio at an early stage and discussions took place in october and november 2016 between trio casey timo and cadent
02:34:51 between trio casey timo and cadent regarding whether the proposed route for the gas riser pipe was acceptable and compliant
02:34:56 compliant with the fire management precautions in place of the tower now to the best of your knowledge was cadent involved in discussions about the riser
02:35:06 the riser in november 2016 i believe that those those parties mentioned trio casey tmo and kaiden kind of
02:35:15 of consulted on what what route the brothers would go but the um responsibility fell onto trio to design that riser as far as you know were there were those discussions
02:35:26 discussions um about the fire management precautions in the tower um as far as i know yes reading that statement there that that's what i believe to be the case
02:35:37 that's what i believe to be the case very well now in one of the things we'll hear a lot about tomorrow not so much for today but tomorrow we'll hear about a design the design changed in march 2017 would it be
02:35:50 2017 would it be correct to say that cadent was consulted on those changes as well i believe they were yes
02:36:02 can we go to mr mason's second statement to the inquiry at cad 4030
02:36:16 can we go to page 8 please
02:36:20 paragraph 32. now i appreciate this is mr mason's evidence i just like your view
02:36:26 view on what he says he says cadent remained informed where the nature of the design had changed and what if any impact this may have upon the performance of the contract
02:36:38 upon the performance of the contract however had caton had no direct involvement in the design revision and indeed would not have the experience or expertise to deal with any design decisions trio
02:36:50 to deal with any design decisions trio made as principal designer this was a matter of trio performing its role
02:36:55 role under the contract over the page now is it right that cadent wouldn't have the experience or expertise to consider trio's design decisions at
02:37:08 to consider trio's design decisions at grenfell
02:37:09 grenfell no the the nature of the the the contract that we have with trio was that was all
02:37:14 was all um contracted to them we had nobody within
02:37:18 within national grid as was then who had the experience or the expertise to act as the designer so no one at national grid would have been able to review the design and against igem g5 for example we didn't
02:37:31 against igem g5 for example we didn't have that expertise i see i see well going a little further into the narrative turning to december 2016
02:37:44 we've already spoken about what a hazop risk assessment meeting is and i understand that the first one that considered grenfell tower was on the 5th of december 2016. does
02:37:57 was on the 5th of december 2016. does that
02:37:57 that sound right to you it does yes and who attends hazop meetings um we have the the local
02:38:09 um we have the the local engineering team that was based in london um
02:38:12 london um the supervisor that managed the work in bob's um we also had members of our central network strategy team as well what does the central network strategy
02:38:24 what does the central network strategy team at the time they kind of coordinated um a lot of the hazop meetings
02:38:31 meetings um and they kind of held the data on what actions were taking place right they sort of chaired and facilitated those meetings okay how often are hazop meetings
02:38:43 okay how often are hazop meetings um generally um as needed but normally once a month or so you'll see that in the hazop meetings that we have we talked about a number or the team
02:38:52 the team then talked about a number of different buildings
02:38:55 buildings meeting yes we'll go to that in a minute we'll see that um to the extent we can um if they're once a month the survey was completed at the very
02:39:07 the survey was completed at the very beginning of october yeah i i believe that once a month i haven't checked recently how often they are sure but we've got a period of all of october
02:39:17 october all of november and then this this meeting happens on the 5th of december so there's a period of two months before this meeting yes i think our procedures say a hazard meeting must be held within three months
02:39:29 meeting must be held within three months yes exactly yes but and this falls within that that three months but is there any reason why what i'm trying to get to the bottom of is is there are they at three month
02:39:41 is is there are they at three month intervals or are they more common i i i don't know what they were okay
02:39:46 okay this time okay and at these meetings caden i think you say consider a number of actions for buildings are all of the buildings on that list buildings that would score
02:39:57 buildings that would score over 210 000 on the building priority school
02:40:04 i believe all buildings over 210 000 will be on there that there may also be others on there as well that score below below that level right okay now
02:40:18 before we go to the hazel before we go to the hazel minutes themselves i just want to go back to the lc 21 survey to just remind ourselves of
02:40:30 21 survey to just remind ourselves of something that it said and it's the native version of cad6031
02:40:45 and i need the tab called input summary
02:40:56 great thank you in red towards the top of the page there we see immediate action notes and we see laterals l3 l6
02:41:08 and we see laterals l3 l6 have severe corrosion please investigate supply pipes s1 s2 have no piv please investigate do you see that there
02:41:19 please investigate do you see that there i do
02:41:20 i do yes and references to s1 and s2 would they be to what i've called the landlord supply and the residential supply
02:41:28 supply they would be yes they would be the only two pipes at the time of this survey september 2016 that would be the only two pipes into grenfell at that time correct yes do you agree
02:41:40 correct yes do you agree that looking at that red text there that the lc 21 survey clearly identified that pivs could not be found on the two existing gas supplies at the tower in 2000
02:41:51 2000 in 2016. yeah reading that text there that says that when they surveyed it they couldn't find the pivx and we needed to go and do further work right can we go to
02:42:02 further work right can we go to your first inquiry statement at page 22 that's cad402985
02:42:17 can we go to page 22 yes and can we go to paragraph 82 please
02:42:25 and you tell us this it's a common occurrence for pivs to be covered over or otherwise rendered inaccessible by building owners or contractors undertaking work on their behalf this
02:42:36 undertaking work on their behalf this occurs
02:42:37 occurs without liaison or notification to the relevant gas distribution network finger over page gas distribution network operators with this in mind our surveys require us
02:42:49 with this in mind our surveys require us to state
02:42:50 to state where the pivs can be visually identified at the premises surveyed can i take it from that that it was known
02:42:58 was known at cadence that pivx were covered over from time to time yes it was is it still a common occurrence for pibs to be covered over by building owners um
02:43:09 owners um yes it is would you say that keeping pivs
02:43:12 pivs accessible is an ongoing challenge for gas transporters yes i would can we go to igem g5
02:43:24 can we go to igem g5 rhx705 at page 64 please
02:43:35 and at paragraph 7.3 we see some statements about pivs and it says at 37.3.1
02:43:48 and it says at 37.3.1 where a network pipeline supplies a multi-occupancy building a piv shall be installed outside the building to enable isolation of the building complex now do you understand by the word shall
02:44:00 now do you understand by the word shall there that that means that pivs are mandatory in multi-occupied occupancy buildings yes now if we look down at 7.3.3
02:44:11 yes now if we look down at 7.3.3 it says any piv shall be protected with a valve cover and must be permanently identified now do you take from that that pivx must be kept accessible
02:44:22 be kept accessible i do yes now you've accepted earlier that valves like pivs would be part of the pipeline and part
02:44:29 and part of caden's regulatory duty to keep in good repair does it follow therefore that caden has a duty to give keep
02:44:39 keep pivs operational and accessible we have a duty to keep them accessible and by being accessible that would make
02:44:50 and by being accessible that would make them operational we don't test their operation when we do our surveys right
02:44:59 if if you had been able if your surveyors had been able to see a piv can you just talk me through what they would have done had they seen the piv just to
02:45:07 just to make sure it was they they would see a um an iron or a plastic box in the footpath about six to eight inches
02:45:18 footpath about six to eight inches square they would lift the lid and see if they could see or access what we call a valve spindle which is the the spindle that we put the key on to to operate the piv
02:45:30 to to operate the piv but they wouldn't actually turn them they wouldn't turn it no can you tell me why they wouldn't turn it off um because when we when we turned the valve off then customers gas supplies would go off
02:45:44 then customers gas supplies would go off and they're very they're quarter turn valves which make them very sensitive um the piers generally are very very robust bits of equipment and we would we would expect them to work if we
02:45:56 would we would expect them to work if we could see them and and they were accessible right and we have actually done quite extensive testing on pivs of various ages to make sure they continue to work but part of a if if the pips
02:46:08 to work but part of a if if the pips identified in the footpath part of the
02:46:11 the inspection process is to visually identify
02:46:15 identify open up the access chamber and just see that the piv is there and not impeded by debris or anything else that might have gotten correct now you told me earlier i think
02:46:28 correct now you told me earlier i think that pivs are operated in emergencies is that right yes predominantly it's an emergency bit of kit predominantly yes
02:46:40 predominantly yes does that not mean that there's all the more reason to make sure that pubes are accessible yes just
02:46:49 yes just turning first to any piv that might have been on residential supply 2 so the newer pipe can we go to tri
02:47:00 501417 please
02:47:04 now these are the as laid plans following the insulin installation of residential supply 2. and we can see that in the bottom right hand corner there's a date
02:47:15 hand corner there's a date 6th of february 2017. do you see that i do yes
02:47:19 do yes yeah we can see a drawing and the it's marked grenfell tower in that pinky beige color and we can see a black line which has got a markup of ex 18
02:47:32 which has got a markup of ex 18 inch diameter i think that is that a description of the main being yeah i think that means existing 15-inch 15
02:47:41 15 yeah that certainly clarifies something for me
02:47:44 for me i had not understood that to be 15. now there's a red line going from right to left and into the tower and that appears to be a drawing of the new
02:47:56 that appears to be a drawing of the new service pipe going in is that right yes that's correct and there's a symbol with two triangles is that symbol of valve it is yes and does that indicate to you that a piv was installed
02:48:07 that a piv was installed at grenfell tower it does yes so that's outside the building and that would be accessible yes now it's not been possible yet to find
02:48:20 now it's not been possible yet to find the valve chamber at grenfell tower where do you believe it might be i believe it would be next to or near to the um the pivs of
02:48:31 next to or near to the um the pivs of the
02:48:32 the um the supplies one and two on the night of the
02:48:37 of the the fire do you sorry on the day of the survey
02:48:41 survey of course do you um understand why we can't go
02:48:45 can't go today to find the piv i do yes can you tell me
02:48:49 tell me um because i believe it was covered in debris
02:48:52 debris oh no i'm sorry i'm talking about if we were to go today down to the tower yeah we can't see the access chamber
02:49:03 we can't see the access chamber now and you say in your witness statement
02:49:06 statement that you believe it's covered by the concrete plinth that yes moves the elevator up to the tower to to the top of the tower uh is that your evidence yes i believe
02:49:19 uh is that your evidence yes i believe we can't see the piers because they were either um covered over as part of the landscaping work or as part of that concrete plinth yeah who put that plinth there to the
02:49:30 yeah who put that plinth there to the best of your knowledge i don't know could it be the metropolitan police put that there i i i it could be yes but i don't know who put it there
02:49:41 who put it there but you do believe that the piv would be there
02:49:45 there if we could access that part of the pavement so i believe so i visited the tower and i saw the plinth i believe the piv is underneath it whether there's
02:49:56 the piv is underneath it whether there's been
02:49:56 been um landscaping or remediation work on the footpath and then the plinth is on top of that so that in effect both are covering the pivots i i don't know
02:50:08 pivots i i don't know very well i want to turn out to look at the older service residential supply one
02:50:17 can we go to cad four zeroes 2989
02:50:24 and this is your exhibit 17.
02:50:29 this is the lc 21 survey that was completed in 2008. can we go to page two of that
02:50:39 now at the bottom of page two when we get there
02:50:48 thank you at the bottom of page two we can see section three e and it says valves and emergency isolation and the first question
02:50:58 question is has the has pipe got a ground fire valve do you see that yes you can see that the survey is ticked in byro yes yeah now is that a reference to
02:51:11 byro yes yeah now is that a reference to a piv
02:51:15 i i believe it is yeah now on that basis can we conclude with some
02:51:21 some certainty that there was a piv for residential supply one that was identifiable and accessible in 2008
02:51:34 i believe so if there hadn't been a piv would you expect the surveyor to have noted that in a survey in 2008 i do where it says
02:51:45 in a survey in 2008 i do where it says has pipe got a ground fire valve i believe that he that refers to piv
02:51:51 to piv if he he or she couldn't see the pier that made with a tick no we saw in the lc 21 survey that the surveyor in 2016
02:52:04 that the surveyor in 2016 couldn't see a piv on that supply does that mean therefore that it existed but it had been covered over or
02:52:15 existed but it had been covered over or otherwise lost i believe so now we don't have any information about the pivx being observed on the landlord supply from 2008 but is it possible that the
02:52:28 from 2008 but is it possible that the piv
02:52:28 piv on the landlord's supply also existed in 2008
02:52:33 2008 and then was covered over at some point subsequent it is yes now there's no need to go to this statement unless you want to but will you say in your first witness statement that pivs may have
02:52:45 witness statement that pivs may have been covered up in the landscaping in the refurbishment works in 2016.
02:52:53 and those would be the primary refurbishment works where there was cladding and all sorts of the very major works that this inquiries talked a lot about now is if that's right
02:53:05 now is if that's right then the piece could have been lost sometime in 2016 is that right they could have been lost sometime between 2008 and 2000. well exactly there's no way of knowing
02:53:17 well exactly there's no way of knowing exactly when when yeah so i've come to a good time to break even though it's slightly early well it doesn't matter
02:53:28 slightly early well it doesn't matter is it a convenient point for you it is the next topic will take quite some time so i think it is oh well that's a good reason to stop at this point i think we are making very good progress though so good well done um well mr harrison it's
02:53:40 well done um well mr harrison it's not quite one o'clock but it's obviously a good point at which to have a break so we'll stop now for some lunch and we'll resume at two o'clock please okay and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything
02:53:51 anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it there was a break all right thank you very much would you like to go with the usher then please
02:54:05 usher then please thank you very much two o'clock please