Cross-examination of Jonathan Roper, Celotex sales manager, regarding marketing of RS5000 insulation and knowledge of testing limitations for use above 18 meters.
00:00:15 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to begin today by hearing further evidence from mr jonathan room so would you ask mr room to come back in
00:00:28 please
00:00:39 good morning mr room good morning all ready to carry on i am yes sir good thank you yes mr miller morning mr chairman good morning mr room can i take you back please to the slide presentations
00:00:51 presentations uh which were presented by mr ropa at the
00:00:54 the august 2014 launch meeting at cel408668 please
00:01:03 and i'd like to go in that slideshow to page 18.
00:01:12 page 18. you can see that this is a slide which says latest addition to our 5000 range and then you see five products set out underneath celatex fr5000 multi-purpose solution is
00:01:25 celatex fr5000 multi-purpose solution is the first one there and then there are three others cg 5000 gd 5000 gs 5000 and then at the bottom celitex rs 5000 rain screen
00:01:38 celitex rs 5000 rain screen cladding solution
00:01:43 did you understand from the slideshow and the presentation that rs 5000 was a new product that's what i understood yes and as a
00:01:54 that's what i understood yes and as a new product it was an addition to the existing range that's correct and therefore an addition and separate from
00:02:02 from or a separate product from fr 5000 correct
00:02:10 did nobody tell you that rs 5000 was fr 5000 simply rebranded not at that stage no you say not at that stage
00:02:20 stage did you come to learn that fact later i learned that much later yes when i i couldn't tell you was it before or after you left celetex
00:02:31 before or after you left celetex i think it was before in the latter stages of my time at celetex right was it before or after you tended your resignation it may have been about that that same
00:02:42 it may have been about that that same time i see how did you find out
00:02:48 i'm i'm i must have been told by one of the team one of the team i um the sales team that i was i was in
00:02:58 right how did you feel when you found out that in fact rs 5000 was not a new product but simply fr 5000 rebranded i didn't feel anything were you
00:03:10 i didn't feel anything were you surprised
00:03:12 surprised um i suppose a little bit yes from what you could observe from your teammates around you both during and after the
00:03:23 during and after the august launch presentation were they also
00:03:26 also laboring under the misapprehension that rs 5000 was a new product and not simply fr 5000 rebranded i can't be sure you can't be sure
00:03:40 can i ask you to go to page 32.
00:03:50 this is a slide which is called celetex rain screen cladding solutions and you can see that it says below 18 meters rs 5000 above 18 meters rs 5000
00:04:02 meters rs 5000 above 18 meters rs 5000 and then in the third bullet point it says incurred substantial development costs did mr roper or anybody else at the meeting discuss what the substantial development
00:04:13 discuss what the substantial development costs
00:04:14 costs comprised no did you have any inkling or idea as to what those were no
00:04:24 did you know that the development costs for rs 5000 comprised the test and classification costs and marketing but no development
00:04:36 costs and marketing but no development costs in
00:04:36 costs in in the sense of research and development production no et cetera i wasn't privy to any information what did you think incurred substantial development costs meant
00:04:48 development costs meant i don't think i thought about it at the time
00:04:51 time um can we look at page 46
00:05:03 and this is an email sorry an e shot slide slide which calls itself e shots launch email product spotlight sent to architect specifiers cladding contractors
00:05:15 specifiers cladding contractors distribution and then there's an inner slide which may need to be blown up a little bit more but it says celetex launch above 18 meter board rs 5000 and it says in the text on the
00:05:27 rs 5000 and it says in the text on the right of the balloon committed to ongoing product development celetex has launched celitex rs 5000 specifically designed for rain screen cladding applications
00:05:38 for rain screen cladding applications and the latest addition to the 5000 series
00:05:42 series now that description there specifically designed for rain screen cladding applications and the latest addition to the 5000 range around 5000 series was false wasn't it in fact i mean looking at this now
00:05:55 in fact i mean looking at this now that would seem to be seem to be so yes yes
00:05:59 yes and so did you think when you saw this slide that actually rs 5000 had been specifically designed and was a an addition to the 5000 series that's what i was led to believe yesterday
00:06:13 can we then turn back to your relationship with harley in respect of the grenfell tower project which was where we
00:06:22 where we left off yesterday and go please to cel40 is one four five one
00:06:32 this is another salesforce entry and again if we can have that blown up please so we can see as much of it as possible uh we can see
00:06:41 see and i'm afraid it is a little bit fuzzy uh that the last modified date and time is the 18th of september 2014.
00:06:51 2014. it relates to a meeting and this i think is a screenshot one looks at the whole thing and if you go a little bit further down it relates to an activity type called
00:07:04 it relates to an activity type called rain screen contractor and then under uh last modified date and time 28th of august 2014 you see that and then under comments refurb of
00:07:16 and then under comments refurb of grenfell tower you see it says uh it says 15 u value that's probably 0.15 u value dan has calculated using fr
00:07:29 dan has calculated using fr but stated that he needs to use rs 5000 150 millimeters
00:07:38 due on site in october we'll recalculate using our software instead of build desk to make sure everything is in order now i i've done my best to read what is
00:07:50 now i i've done my best to read what is not a particularly legible document but do you think i've got that right what i've read to you yes thank you do you recall having a conversation with dan ankertle-jones after sending the documents in the zip file
00:08:03 sending the documents in the zip file that we looked at yesterday if that is my record which i think it is then i must have done yes yes and i've shown you that it says dan has calculated
00:08:14 has calculated using fr but has stated he needs to use rs 5000
00:08:21 rs 5000 and fr there would that be a reference to fr 5000 i would have thought so yes does that record dan has calculated using fr but
00:08:32 record dan has calculated using fr but has stated he needs to use rs 5000 reflect a statement made by
00:08:37 by dynagonal jones to you where he said i need to use rs 5000 i would have thought so yes right does that in turn reflect do you recall advice that you had given
00:08:49 advice that you had given daniel anchored jones that rs 5000 needed to be used or did did the rs 5000 come from him
00:08:58 i mean this would have been after i'd presented
00:09:01 presented or emailed him all of the information on the rs5000 yes
00:09:08 yes yes exactly and therefore there's it looks as if there's a later conversation in which he says uh he's measured with fr but needs to use rs 5000. so can we take it from that
00:09:19 rs 5000. so can we take it from that that to the best of your recollection he's now understood that because grenfell tower is above 18 meters
00:09:26 meters he needs to use a he needs to use rs 5000
00:09:29 5000 instead of fr 5000 yes yes can you help us as to why it would be that daniel and control jones thought that fr 5000 might originally have been
00:09:40 that fr 5000 might originally have been appropriate for grenfell tower being a building over 18 meters
00:09:44 18 meters possibly after reading the literature that i'd previously sent to him right no fr not rs i meant why he might have thought that fr which was originally specified might have might have been
00:09:56 specified might have might have been appropriate for application at grenfell tower being a building over 18 meters can you help with why he might have thought that i can't know
00:10:08 thought that i can't know okay um at this point though at 28th of august 2014 we know that you'd sent daniel ankita jones the marketing literature what was your impression through your
00:10:21 what was your impression through your conversations with dan akathal jones at the end of august 2014 of how alert he was to the fact that rs 5000 could only be used at grenfell tower in the same system as tested
00:10:34 tower in the same system as tested i can't be sure do you think that he understood that
00:10:40 i couldn't tell you do you have no impression at all of what was going through his mind from your conversations with him no
00:10:50 now it also says in the uh salesforce entry in the last line that i've read to you that will recalculate using our software is
00:11:01 will recalculate using our software is that celetex will recalculate i should imagine so yes right and the build desk was the software is this right that uh harley had used for the calculation that's correct yes right we're going to
00:11:13 that's correct yes right we're going to come back to the harley calculation later on
00:11:16 later on but do you remember whether you were sent it at this moment at this time i can't be sure can we go to cel 5014 please
00:11:35 and i'd like to go to the second email down on that page at 1809 if we can go to the um the bottom uh
00:11:49 the bottom uh this is this is on the 18th of september at 602 in the morning so you're up early and you write morning dan can we please can you let me know your availability to discuss grenfell tower
00:12:00 availability to discuss grenfell tower and the other projects in your pipeline you see that i do um and then again if you go to the top of the document there's a an email from you on the 17th
00:12:12 there's a an email from you on the 17th of november 2014 again to daniel ankita jones at harley copy to celetex dormant hi dan would you be around on thursday straight friday to catch up regarding your current stroke
00:12:24 catch up regarding your current stroke future
00:12:24 future projects jonathan just pausing on dormant what was celetex dormant i couldn't tell you i don't know you don't know i mean look
00:12:35 i don't know you don't know i mean look it was
00:12:36 it was an email address you thought fit to use as the copy address did you not know what it was
00:12:43 unless it's an automated um system within celotex or the email system which pings back a dormant address i couldn't tell you it looks like an i.t right what i'm really getting at is
00:12:55 right what i'm really getting at is whether this was an email address where you would send information about potentially dormant customers or dormant projects i don't think it means that i think it's probably an i.t issue i'd have thought
00:13:06 probably an i.t issue i'd have thought right all right now do you remember having any discussions either in
00:13:14 either in september 2014 or november 2014 to discuss grenfell tower and other projects in harley's pipeline i think if there was a
00:13:25 harley's pipeline i think if there was a i mean i can't remember off the top of my head but if there was a record in the database system then i i would have done i would have made a record there right do you remember discussing rs 5000
00:13:38 right do you remember discussing rs 5000 at grenfell specifically either in september
00:13:41 september or in november 2014. i don't unless there's a record okay um now did you know uh at the time that at the end of
00:13:53 uh at the time that at the end of september 2014 rbkc had approved the use of raynaud pe55 for the external rain screen material at grenfell tower i didn't no
00:14:06 material at grenfell tower i didn't no you didn't
00:14:11 let's go to cel 6015 please
00:14:19 we can see here an email on the 18th of september
00:14:25 sorry november in 2014 looks like a diary entry to yourself with an appointment for a meeting on the 24th of november uh at harley house in crowbrook east
00:14:36 uh at harley house in crowbrook east sussex you see that i do and the subject was a celetex project review and then underneath that uh there's an it looks what seems to be an email was sent by you hi
00:14:49 seems to be an email was sent by you hi dan
00:14:49 dan i should say good to speak to you again confirmation of our meeting to review current and future projects for potential celetex specifications would i be right in thinking that um between the 17th of november email i
00:15:01 um between the 17th of november email i showed you just a moment ago and you're making this arrangement on the 18th you had a conversation with dan anchored jones i think i must have done yes it looks like it and um
00:15:12 like it and um you then set the meeting up on the 24th uh of november um can we go to cel six zeroes eighteen
00:15:26 six zeroes eighteen this is an email from uh you mr room to daniel ankurl jones on the
00:15:32 the 24th of november 2014
00:15:37 and it says hi dan i spoke with mark and the team regarding a few projects
00:15:43 and the top one is listed grenfell tower do you see that uh and in the second line it refers to you having seen mark's drawings you say when we last looked at this we came to a conclusion of using
00:15:54 came to a conclusion of using three thousand square meters of 150 millimeter rs 5000 is this still so mark's drawings were showing a mix of 100 millimeters and 160 millimeters now
00:16:07 millimeters now you say when we last looked at this when was that
00:16:10 was that when did you last look at grenfell and come to the conclusion about the square meter ridge for rs 5000 and its thickness
00:16:20 it must have been at some point prior to this when i would have attended the offices of of harley but i can't be sure exactly the date in the second line it refers to you
00:16:32 in the second line it refers to you having seen mark's drawings whose were whose drawings were those or what drawings were those so that might be mark stapley who was also part of the design team
00:16:44 also part of the design team and he may have brought up an image on his computer to show the areas of insulation did those drawings you saw show the cladding which would be used i can't be sure was there any discussion
00:16:56 i can't be sure was there any discussion that you had with harley about the cladding which would be used i don't think at that point no it was more about the insulation was there any mention at all about the use of a or proposed use of acm cladding
00:17:09 use of a or proposed use of acm cladding panels at grenfell tower not that i can recall no
00:17:13 recall no was there any discussion at all about the suitability of rs5000 with the rain screen system they were proposing
00:17:20 proposing either as the the external panels or the whole system no did anybody at harley ask you any questions about rs 5000 in in this meeting that you're referring
00:17:32 in in this meeting that you're referring to in this email or in the previous meeting to which you're referring or discussion to which you're referring only in so much is the the thickness of the installation right
00:17:44 the thickness of the installation right we'll come back to that did you make it clear to them that rs 5000 could not be used on grenfell tower unless it was part of the exact same system
00:17:55 same system that had passed the bs-8414 test i don't think i did no why is that i think i expected that um the team who were specialists in this
00:18:06 um the team who were specialists in this arena had
00:18:07 arena had covered the literature that i'd been sending sending out to them let's go to c e l six zeros two to interrupt you mr miller can i
00:18:18 two to interrupt you mr miller can i just ask you this i mean sometimes even an expert can overlook something or be under a misapprehension did it ever occur to you that mr anchoral jones might have missed
00:18:29 mr anchoral jones might have missed something or be under a misapprehension of some kind i was no i was never given that sort of impression no right thank you
00:18:42 right thank you did you have an impression that mr axel james might have been an expert in some kind
00:18:47 kind of in some way or in some field
00:18:52 i think from previous meetings with dan in my previous life at hilti where it was more occasion when we were looking at structural fixings i knew of his sort of knowledge
00:19:03 fixings i knew of his sort of knowledge in in that arena so you knew him as a structural engineer having expertise in that arena what about
00:19:13 about his expertise in relation to facades more generally and fire performance i specifically i didn't question any specific knowledge that he
00:19:24 specific knowledge that he may or may not have had he was part of a team
00:19:28 team that or the company that specialized in in that sort of operation did you know mr ankle jones to be or did you think that he was a
00:19:39 to be or did you think that he was a facade engineer or the sort of person who you would equate with a specialist consultant that we'd seen in your february 2015 tier emails
00:19:52 february 2015 tier emails sorry slides i wouldn't have i would have classed him as a knowledgeable person but i couldn't tell you his his background or his his yeah his education
00:20:05 or his his yeah his education no and did you know that harley and indeed the design team
00:20:13 team around them such as it was did not include
00:20:17 include a specialist facade engineer or fire engineer i didn't know you didn't know
00:20:29 in those circumstances why did you not given that what you didn't know why did you not think it appropriate just to make absolutely sure that dan ankle
00:20:40 to make absolutely sure that dan ankle jones
00:20:42 jones had familiarized himself thoroughly with the caveat in all of celetex's marketing literature when considering the use of rs 5000 for grenfell tower
00:20:53 grenfell tower i i can't tell you well i i i i'm asking you a why question do you have an answer to that
00:21:03 that i don't know
00:21:08 looking then at the email i wanted to go to which is cel6024 please
00:21:23 this is an email on the 11th of february 2015
00:21:28 2015 from you to ben bailey and there are two emails on page one
00:21:36 and then an email on page two so this is around about the time those are the emails we end up with if we go to page two to start with and go to the bottom of page two
00:21:48 of page two we see that here is an email from you on the 11th of february 2015 and you say there hi ben looking back through my records
00:21:59 through my records it seems that dan had performed an initial calc using his build desk software 0.15 u value 150 millimeters of insulation he was going to send me the drawings
00:22:12 he was going to send me the drawings once finished with trinity back in november
00:22:15 november let me have the final construction drawing showing the different build ups and i will get these modeled for you now just looking at that is it right as this would suggest that daniel andrew
00:22:27 as this would suggest that daniel andrew jones hadn't sent you the drawings uh in november or after november as you were expecting i think that's correct yes yes and you go on to
00:22:38 go on to ask ben bailey at harley's for the final construction drawings showing the different build-ups so you could get those modeled would you normally ask for final construction drawings
00:22:48 drawings i think if there is a query over over the performance it looks like that the insulation and the thickness um there was still an anomaly there from
00:22:59 um there was still an anomaly there from the calculation that dan had performed
00:23:03 why did you ask for the final construction drawings because there's certain components within
00:23:10 within the that penetrate through the insulation that could have changed the way that you value had been calculated and i wanted to take or get hold of something that could confirm that which
00:23:22 something that could confirm that which i could send to the technical team to review what did you mean by different build ups well basically what was behind or
00:23:33 well basically what was behind or penetrating through the insulation
00:23:38 did it not occur to you at that stage that any difference in the build up even a build up behind or penetrating through the
00:23:49 behind or penetrating through the insulation would be different from or might very well be different from the build-up forming part of the test back in may 2014. i didn't know why is
00:24:02 back in may 2014. i didn't know why is that
00:24:05 that i can't i can't tell you
00:24:09 you did realize at the time of course didn't you that any difference in build up in the cladding system as a system which meant that it was different from the system as
00:24:21 that it was different from the system as tested in may 2014 would have meant that it wasn't covered by the bsa414 test results but i'd definitely be used above 18 meters but i did know
00:24:32 meters but i did know there was other routes to compliance based upon that test
00:24:38 what do you mean by that well with the building control alliance document the the use of a specialist to take the test as an assessment an initial assessment and potentially perform a desktop study
00:24:51 and potentially perform a desktop study for instance oh right so
00:24:55 but at this stage had you any inkling or that harley we're going to obtain a desktop study based on the data derived from the 8414
00:25:07 based on the data derived from the 8414 test
00:25:08 test i i didn't know what they were doing no you didn't have a desktop study did you i didn't no the company didn't say so what route to compliance did you think harley was pursuing at
00:25:19 did you think harley was pursuing at this point i couldn't be sure given that you couldn't be sure did you not seek to clarify that with mr uncle jones no i didn't why is that
00:25:32 i just i didn't is it because you wanted to make the sale and left it to him to make the decision as to whether or not rs 5000 could safely be used on grenfell tower
00:25:45 i think it must have been the the case that i i had as you say left it to him to make that decision
00:25:53 and did you perceive that he might be making that decision ignorant of exactly what it was that he could and couldn't do with the results of the 8414 test
00:26:04 of the 8414 test no i didn't think like that no
00:26:08 if you were confident in your mind that he mr uncle james had read and understood the caveat within the marketing literature
00:26:16 you you wouldn't be discussing different buildups would you
00:26:23 i can't be sure well the answer must be no
00:26:28 so could you ask me that question again yes i'll try it a different way if you were confident in your own mind that mr ankertle-jones had read the marketing literature and really understood the caveat in it and by caveat i mean that you you
00:26:40 in it and by caveat i mean that you you couldn't use rs 5000 in any system different from the one which had been tested
00:26:49 then you wouldn't be discussing different build would you possibly not no no
00:27:02 can we then look at the next email up in the chain at the foot of page one please
00:27:12 this is ben bailey back to you on the 11th of february 2015. hi jonathan the drawings are in a dropbox does this link work for you you see that i do and
00:27:26 you say in your witness statement let's just go to that because you cover this point um that you identified two drawings as being particularly relevant i can show you that it's it's page 22 of your statement
00:27:38 that it's it's page 22 of your statement of
00:27:38 of paragraph 74. uh and uh in fact at 73 you refer to the
00:27:52 uh and uh in fact at 73 you refer to the drop box
00:27:55 drop box and at 74 you say you identify two drawings of particular relevance you see that and uh can i just ask you how you identified those drawings as
00:28:06 how you identified those drawings as particular relevance
00:28:09 i think from just looking through a few the first few that i've i'd found that
00:28:16 that showed an indicative use of the insulation and and the buildup behind it
00:28:23 let's look at those two
00:28:28 drawings that you say were of particular relevance
00:28:32 relevance you've you've identified those in the sentence about halfway down paragraph 73 where you say i identified two relevant drawings which i exhibit as jwrr
00:28:44 drawings which i exhibit as jwrr 35c 00456
00:28:48 35c 00456 and jwrr 36c0457 now we've got those at cel
00:28:57 four five six and cel five zeros four five
00:29:01 five seven we could probably get them both on the screen at the same time if if we can and if we can't we'll look at them sequentially cel 50456 and 457. yes thank you very
00:29:15 cel 50456 and 457. yes thank you very much
00:29:16 much now looking at those why did you consider these drawings to be of a special relevance just because they showed the insulation and
00:29:27 and the build up and something that i could send on to the technical team to review for me
00:29:39 in order to identify these particular drawings does it follow that you must have opened the dropbox that ben bailey had sent you i did yes you did and looked at all of the drawings in it yes
00:29:50 the drawings in it yes i don't think i looked at all of them no just the first few and as soon as i found one or two that were relevant then i could uh get them sent across right now although neither of these two
00:30:02 right now although neither of these two drawings show the cladding material specifically uh harley have been able to identify exactly what the drawings were in the drop box
00:30:11 drop box um but ben bailey has said that harley kept current drawings in a drop box and may simply have sent that link to you rather than selecting any particular drawings that was his evidence and i'll just give
00:30:22 that was his evidence and i'll just give the reference for the transcript day 35 page 86 it lines at line 21 to 87 at line three that's for our benefit um do you recall
00:30:33 that's for our benefit um do you recall having to sift through a massive drawings to find what you were looking for
00:30:37 for in order to answer ben bailey's question about the u-values i knew there was a lot of drawings there or a lot of files there i should say um and i just picked the first two that became
00:30:49 picked the first two that became i thought were relevant i see when you say you pick the first two out of a file description or visually looking at the drawings i think i just clicked on them one by
00:31:00 i think i just clicked on them one by one until i found one or two as it were that were looked relevant right and just to be very clear what were you looking for well anything that showed the the
00:31:12 well anything that showed the the squiggly line basically which denotes insulation and the dimensions that you could see along the right hand side of each of the images it's nicely thank you now just looking
00:31:23 it's nicely thank you now just looking at those drawings can you see that there is a rain screen i can yes yeah and can you look at it closely
00:31:30 closely because if you do you see that it's got an outer skin and an inner core doesn't it
00:31:34 it if you look at for example the left hand uh
00:31:38 uh drawing there's a rain screen with a a thick black outer coating and an inner core which is the same as on the right-hand drawing you see that do you see that there's an outer
00:31:51 that do you see that there's an outer skin and an inner core i can see some lines denoting some sort of panel yes yes was it not clear to you at the time that the cladding on these drawings proposed for grenfell
00:32:02 on these drawings proposed for grenfell tower whatever it was wasn't cementitious fiberboard i didn't make that comparison no right did it not occur to you that uh harley
00:32:14 did it not occur to you that uh harley had failed to understand the caveat in the literature about the cladding system needing to be the same as the 8414 test looking at these drawings no look look at cel 5029 please
00:32:29 look look at cel 5029 please six zeroes 29 please cel 6 0 is 29
00:32:40 and i'd like to look at the second email down on that page this is an email from you back to ben bailey the same day 11th of february 2015.
00:32:50 2015. and you sent him some calculations you'd receive from your technical department you see that and uh he then responds to you
00:33:00 you perhaps i should just dwell on it a little bit more you say looking at the 150 millimeter concrete as a base you would need 200 millimeters of celatex rs 5000
00:33:08 5000 to meet you value at 15. if you're using a buildup of 160 millimeters rs 5000 as drawn
00:33:14 drawn you will need a u-value of 18. are there any
00:33:18 any further layers internally attached to the 150 millimeter concrete panels that dan calculated if so this will have an impact on the calcs so that's your email to him and he responds to you uh
00:33:30 email to him and he responds to you uh eight minutes later you see that at the top of the page we we think the concrete is 150 millimeters thickness with 100 millimeters concrete and flint stone composition dan's latest calc's attached will this
00:33:42 dan's latest calc's attached will this make any difference now let's look at look at those calculations because you can see from the attachments that he attached some images three of them
00:33:55 cel6030
00:34:02 now this is the build desk calculation carried out by daniel angel jones can you see that okay and yes and it shows at the top line of the text
00:34:15 it shows at the top line of the text under the diagram that the cladding would be an acm cladding panel you see that
00:34:23 [Applause]
00:34:27 i can see that now yes yes it's item number one and under manufacturer it says own catalogue and under name it says acm cladding panel did you realize from this that acm
00:34:38 that acm was going to be used as the cladding panel at granville tower i can't start it no these documents clearly show that it would don't they on reflection they do yes but you didn't
00:34:49 on reflection they do yes but you didn't pick that up is that right i didn't know
00:34:54 so does it follow that you didn't point this out to ben bailey i didn't know had you noticed that the cladding panel was going to be acm would you have done
00:35:06 would you have done i i would have done yes yeah so on your evidence you didn't because you didn't spot that the clouding panel was going to be acm that's correct yes was it not an important thing for you to do to make
00:35:17 an important thing for you to do to make sure that uh it the in the builder the build up was exactly the same as that which had been tested
00:35:25 tested on reflection now with hindsight yes but not at the time and again can i suggest you the reason you didn't go back to him was because you would rather make the
00:35:36 was because you would rather make the sale and leave it to him to work out whether or not the ace the addition of acm cladding panels meant that the caveat was caught or not no that wouldn't be the case no
00:35:49 now can i just show you what ray bailey says in his evidence can i show you day 33 page 27 please
00:36:05 and i'd like to go to line
00:36:09 18 and this is in response to a question i asked him about which route compliant compliance for limited combustibility did you think was being followed on the grenfell tower project
00:36:20 grenfell tower project and his answer was at line 18. i thought we were covered in two ways that and i thought our thoughts were that the material was of limited combustibility and if that's incorrect we accept that in addition there was a bs8414 test so
00:36:33 in addition there was a bs8414 test so it was a material that had a whole series of tests it was a fantastic product on the certificate we saw that it said it had been tested with different facing material we sent our details to celetex
00:36:44 material we sent our details to celetex to get them to sign off that it was safe so i suppose we're saying we believe that celetex had carried out a study on it and then he he's asked the question you
00:36:56 and then he he's asked the question you say we sent our details to celetex to get them to sign off that it was safe answer yes and then he qualifies that at line seven he says that was a poor choice of words to confirm that it was that they were
00:37:07 to confirm that it was that they were happy for us to use it in that situation
00:37:11 and then at line 15 he says yeah we wanted celetex's confirmation that they were happy for us to use it question line 17 was it not up to harley
00:37:23 question line 17 was it not up to harley to satisfy itself that it was safe to use
00:37:25 use by making the appropriate investigations answer at 19 well we made the investigations with the manufacturer
00:37:35 and then uh if you go on uh it goes on to say
00:37:39 to say at the bottom the product was specified by studio e x over where and over the page their fire consultant etc etc and then at line three he says we were doing our own backup check to stuff that
00:37:51 doing our own backup check to stuff that had already been signed off by them so we did our own checks and took all the proper unnecessary means in our view to confirm that what they had specified for us was
00:38:02 correct now was it your understanding mr room that you were being asked by harley to comment on the compliance of the
00:38:15 to comment on the compliance of the rainscreen system to be used at grenfell tower
00:38:19 tower no or to advise on whether rs 5000 was safe for grenfell tower from a fire safety perspective
00:38:30 no and did you not realize at this point or by this point that harley were going to be using rs 5000 above 18 meters in a system which was different from the
00:38:42 system which was different from the system test i wasn't no
00:38:49 now let's look back at your uh email of the 11th of february to which ben bailey was responding at cel 6025 please
00:39:07 [Applause]
00:39:14 and you can see there that you say looking at the 150 millimeter concrete as a base you would need 200 millimeters of celotex rs5000 to meet you value 15.
00:39:28 to meet you value 15. uh is it right that at this stage the specific
00:39:31 specific width or depth if you like of the celotex product was still under consideration it looks to be the case yes
00:39:40 now there were various attachments to this email i did and i just want to look at one or two with you but before i do that can we just look back at the product data sheet uh cel407961
00:39:53 uh cel407961 please and i want to go to page three which is its last page you'll recall mr room we looked at this yesterday this is the shortest of the marketing documents
00:40:04 shortest of the marketing documents which has the pink banner on every page which says suitable for buildings above 18 meters in height we looked at that yesterday and this is the last page if we can go to the last page it says
00:40:16 if we can go to the last page it says under certification and the system tested it lists the insulation it if you see that as the third item down 100 millimeters
00:40:27 down 100 millimeters celatex rs 5000 now as we've discussed before it then goes on underneath the list of components to say
00:40:38 components to say the fire performance and classification report issued only relates to the components detailed above any changes to the components listed will need to be considered by the building designer did you realize that as soon as you
00:40:49 did you realize that as soon as you started discussing depths of celetex other than 100 millimeters they fell outside the system that had been tested i didn't know how could you possibly not
00:41:01 i didn't know how could you possibly not have noticed that
00:41:05 because i read that that the the components included the material
00:41:14 it wasn't a reference to the thickness that's the way i understood it i don't understand that answer with great respect because surely the thicker the material with the more
00:41:26 the thicker the material with the more celetex you put into a system the more the combustible material you're adding to the system is something i learned later that that's
00:41:37 is something i learned later that that's how it was interpreted well did you realize there was no valid br 135 classification in place justifying the use of any thickness of celitex rs 5000 other than 100
00:41:49 celitex rs 5000 other than 100 millimeters i didn't know do you accept that given that you were discussing a depth of celetex greater than 100 millimeters
00:42:00 of celetex greater than 100 millimeters that meant that you were you were discussing a rain screen cladding system which would involve a much greater quantity of combustible material being used without any valid approval in place
00:42:11 place i do now yes you didn't then i didn't know
00:42:16 know and it was your logic that you you thought that it related to the component so you could use any amount of any of this material that's that's correct and then it would pass or it would be it would be covered by
00:42:27 or it would be it would be covered by the test yes
00:42:32 i have to put to you that that is that is not a credible line of thinking and that you can't have thought that at the time well that's that's the way i did
00:42:44 well that's that's the way i did unfortunately
00:42:48 did you not ask yourself why
00:42:52 harley thought that it was all right to use
00:42:55 use 150 or millimeters of celatex rs 5000 as opposed to the 100 millimeters of celotex rs 5000 the subject of the test and the caveat i don't know
00:43:15 the 11th of february 2015 was the same day
00:43:19 day as we see that you sent your traffic light colored three tiers slides to ms berger wasn't it it was a busy day for you did you not
00:43:31 it was a busy day for you did you not in your working day on that day put two and two together and work out in your own mind that harley
00:43:38 harley was agreeing i didn't know
00:43:45 you really didn't no you see they had clear ignorance of the requirements and they had no specialist consultant helping them you really didn't think that these were a green for go use
00:43:57 a green for go use as a in according in accordance with your tier three no because i had no reason to know that they didn't have any specialty consultancy behind them or fire
00:44:10 consultancy behind them or fire consultant
00:44:16 can we look at cel 6027
00:44:25 now this is a celetex uh u-value value calculation that i think you carried out on the 11th of february 2015 isn't it
00:44:36 of february 2015 isn't it it's not something that i could carry out it's something that the technical team
00:44:40 team would carry out so i see i'd sent the correspondence from um that i received from ben bailey to the celetex technical team
00:44:52 ben bailey to the celetex technical team to run
00:44:53 to run the calculation i follow and you got the result back on the 11th of february and you were their client effectively is that the way that worked i think that's the
00:45:04 the way that worked i think that's the way that
00:45:04 way that it is recorded within their system yes i see so although your celetex you are effectively the technical team's client as it were yes as it were
00:45:15 client as it were yes as it were yes absolutely um right let's just um look down it contains a number of statements um i'm going to look at the paragraphs of text just underneath the columns of figures
00:45:28 and you can see that celetex rs-5000 is referred to there
00:45:33 and uh there's nothing in there for rain screen cladding if you look at the second item in that column yeah uh so they've allowed naught for thermal
00:45:45 uh so they've allowed naught for thermal resistance but then it goes on in the text to say this calculation is for the purposes of demonstrating the thermal transmittance u-value through the model construction
00:45:57 u-value through the model construction it should not be construed as demonstrating compliance with other areas of the building regulations such as approved document b fire it is critical that all areas of design
00:46:08 design are agreed with the relevant building control body before being finalized for buildings with a story height above 18 meters please refer to our rain screen cladding compliance guide which is available from celetex or from
00:46:19 which is available from celetex or from the celetex technical center and then you've got the u value of 15 underneath that now i just want to highlight the words uh it should not be construed as
00:46:31 uh it should not be construed as demonstrating compliance with other areas of the building regulations such as approved document b fire do you know why this document mentions approved document b specifically
00:46:42 specifically i don't know is it standard wording on the celetex u-value calculation it could possibly be a yes had you discussed approved document b with mr bailey
00:46:52 bailey i hadn't no or with danielle kettle jones
00:46:55 jones no i don't think so in relation to the use above 18 meters why were you offering u-value calculations for grenfell tower unless you were confident that the
00:47:07 unless you were confident that the build-up was compliant with the proof document b
00:47:13 i think the only thing that we were doing was validating the calculations that dan had performed to achieve .15 um based upon his build desk
00:47:26 um based upon his build desk calculation was it common practice for celetex to carry out u-value calculations without knowing what the cladding material would be i couldn't tell you well had you come
00:47:39 i couldn't tell you well had you come across it
00:47:41 across it in your own work for celetex at this by the at or by this time i i can't be certain [Applause] was it common practice to carry out evaluations without
00:47:53 evaluations without knowing that the cladding system into which
00:47:56 which the insulation material was going to be installed above 18 meters was exactly the same as that tested under the bs-8414 test i can't be sure was there not an obvious risk in
00:48:07 risk in pursuing a an approach like that looking back with hindsight yes possibly and the risk didn't occur to you at the time
00:48:15 time it didn't no even though you were privy to
00:48:19 to all the material that have come from uh the technical department and the and the marketing literature and the details about the test no
00:48:30 can we look at cel 6028 please this is another calculation also attached to the email of the 11th of february that you sent to ben bailey
00:48:42 of february that you sent to ben bailey we've just seen and this is the calculation showing that 160 millimeters of rs 5000 would result in a u value of 18. that's i'm summarizing the effect of the
00:48:53 that's i'm summarizing the effect of the document but do you agree that that is what
00:48:55 what it says effectively correct now this document doesn't have the disclaimers that we've seen on the previous
00:49:03 previous example that we were looking at why is that
00:49:07 that i couldn't tell you
00:49:10 and given that uh 160 millimeters was not as tested uh why again not tell ben bailey that 160 millimeters wasn't
00:49:21 wasn't what was tested and it shouldn't be even considered i can't tell you for the same reason as before
00:49:28 before yes
00:49:32 were calculations such as this without disclaimers about adb often sent out in your experience as it stood at the time i i can't recall can we look at cel
00:49:44 i i can't recall can we look at cel 6031 please
00:49:51 and this is your email of the 15th of february
00:49:56 right we need to go lower down uh the string to page five please and then up to page four
00:50:05 uh this is uh your email uh to ben bailey and it starts at the foot of page four thank you on the 12th of february 2015
00:50:21 thank you on the 12th of february 2015 hi ben and if we go over to page five we can see the text you say i've spoken to our technical team and they've pointed out that dan had failed to take into account the negative impact of the helping hand brackets cold bridging the insulation this is why
00:50:33 cold bridging the insulation this is why the build desk data is showing favorable u-value results i will leave it to you to decide which thickness of rs 5000 you will need to achieve
00:50:39 achieve your desired u value
00:50:46 would you agree that you were effectively advising that you couldn't get a u-value of 15 with 160 millimeters of 5000 the the two calculations that i'd sent
00:50:58 the the two calculations that i'd sent back from our technical team were a model representation of the different thicknesses and the resultant u values so
00:51:09 and the resultant u values so the technical team were basically telling me that what dan had modelled could not be achieved apparently
00:51:22 could not be achieved apparently and then if we go on to cel 6031 at page four so back to back a page um we see ben bailey's response
00:51:35 um we see ben bailey's response uh i'm afraid we probably have to go it's quite small it may have been blown up and this is a month later on the 13th of march uh ben bailey writes to you and says hi
00:51:46 uh ben bailey writes to you and says hi jonathan can you see that it's in a massive text there i can yes yeah thank you hi jonathan i'm getting to the stage now of ordering the insulation the calc stand did before with 160 millimeters of insulation get to get a u-value of 15 may be
00:51:59 get to get a u-value of 15 may be correct after all as the cladding supports don't break through the insulation would celetex be able to offer sheets in 160 millimeter thickness to reduce the amount of cutting on site [Applause]
00:52:10 [Applause] did you check that did you check the um the calculations again i don't think any further calculations were ever carried out no again why didn't you draw to
00:52:21 out no again why didn't you draw to their attention the fact that if they were going to use 160 millimeters as you now clearly knew they were going to of rs 5000 that would be different from the system tested which only used i i didn't think that
00:52:32 which only used i i didn't think that was an issue
00:52:38 and presumably you thought that daniel antonio jones didn't think it was an issue either is that right correct
00:52:48 i'd like to turn to the topic of case studies you'll recall that we had a discussion about that i think yesterday um can we go on then to cel 6039
00:53:02 this is a meeting reminder to yourself i think
00:53:07 think uh for a meeting on the 7th of may 2015 with ben
00:53:11 with ben bailey and it says meeting with ben bailey to review installation of rs on grenfell tower potential case study first what did you mean by review installation
00:53:24 i think this was just to fact find the details of the project for one of the one page a4 flyers that were produced by celotex
00:53:40 were those the flyers that we talked about yesterday you have a case study to send to potential customers to show potential customers what actual projects you'd used rs-5000 on
00:53:50 on correct yes and you say potential case study was that because you viewed grenfell tower as a potential for such a case study
00:54:01 as a potential for such a case study that you've just described yes
00:54:06 can we look at cel full zeros four four sorry one four four three cell four zero is one four four three please
00:54:22 and this is a sales force entry um which looks like it relates to a meeting between ben bailey and you i think would that be right in
00:54:35 and you i think would that be right in the office to discuss progress on grenfell tower it seems to be yes
00:54:40 be yes now the due date there is 8th of april 2015
00:54:44 2015 and that looks like all the same as all the other dates in the document was there a meeting on the 8th of april 2015
00:54:52 2015 i think if i'd written that up then that's likely yes so that would have predated your outlook diary entry of the 17th of april for a meeting on the 7th of may wouldn't it it would have done yeah i
00:55:05 wouldn't it it would have done yeah i see
00:55:05 see now we can see that it records met ben in the office to discuss progress on grenfell tower rydens are the mc main contractor and although they have started to take rs
00:55:16 they have started to take rs they have not actually started installing discuss the potential to use as a case study and ben is happy thinks that ryden's will get on board also arrange to
00:55:27 also arrange to visit site the next time in area now you can see that it refers to discussing a potential case study of grenfell tower first is this an accurate note of your discussion with ben bailey
00:55:39 discussion with ben bailey if i wrote it then that's correct yes secondly when you propose that grenfell tower should be a case study there what exactly were you proposing to study
00:55:53 well like the other sort of a4 flyers it was literally just a synopsis of the product
00:56:00 product and the project
00:56:04 and what did you at that stage intend the synopsis of the project would say it was prescriptive so whatever
00:56:15 whatever the layout had been on the uh the case study documents those flyers it would have been followed were you proposing to use it
00:56:26 proposing to use it it being grenfell tower as a case study example of an 18 meter plus building where rs 5000 had been used with a system
00:56:35 system different from the bsa414 test
00:56:39 i think it was just a case study of an 18 meter building with rs 5000 i i didn't reflect on the the choice that it was a different build
00:56:50 the choice that it was a different build up as you say if it hadn't shown what buildup had been used in the range screen planning why would it have been any use to a potential customer considering the use of rs 5000
00:57:03 i i don't know well it wouldn't have been would it could because any potential customer would ask you was their first question what's the rain screen possibly yes
00:57:14 what's the rain screen possibly yes so without knowing precisely what the rain screen was the case study would have been all but useless
00:57:23 potentially did you ask ben bailey at this stage this is early april 2015 what the rain screen was i didn't know if you didn't ask that
00:57:34 i didn't know if you didn't ask that question how could you have put forward a sensible and intelligible and useful case study i i don't know i didn't think about it
00:57:57 let's look at ben bailey's evidence about this um this is a day 39 page 93
00:58:06 please
00:58:10 he was asked at page 93 line 12 what did you understand that grenfell tower being a case study for rs 5000 would involve or what did it mean
00:58:21 would involve or what did it mean uh answer i suppose being an insulation supplier they might be interested in what you value was achieved with their product on a building question did you get the impression the grenfell tower was as it were a guinea pig for rs 5000
00:58:33 pig for rs 5000 answer that's not a thought that crossed my mind
00:58:37 [Applause] why would celetex need a case study of how rs
00:58:43 how rs 5000 performed from a thermal point of view
00:58:47 view it's one of the criteria within the the flyers that they would put down but it wouldn't be a case study of actual performance would it because these boards were only just
00:58:59 because these boards were only just going to go onto the building
00:59:03 sorry could you elaborate well it wouldn't be a case study which simply identified what the thermal value was would say no more than the marketing literature would it well that's generally what these these documents were
00:59:15 documents were yes but it but a potential customer would know what the thermal values were for rs 5000 and wouldn't need to look at a case study for that
00:59:26 um potentially but not always i suppose they would have to it would give them an indication of the thermal performance of a particular thickness of material anything other than that they
00:59:39 material anything other than that they would need to go to the technical team to get a
00:59:42 to get a specific calculation done to give an indication was the reality that grenfell tower was a potential case study in the sense
00:59:53 was a potential case study in the sense that you've expressed it because grenfell tower was one of the first major projects where rs 5000 was being used in a building over 18 meters yes and indeed at the as at the 8th of
01:00:06 yes and indeed at the as at the 8th of april 2015 i i should ask you were there any other projects involving buildings over 18 meters
01:00:12 meters for which you had sold rs 5000 i can't say for others within the team or teams
01:00:19 or teams in the uk all right what about you not for me
01:00:22 for me personally no so this was your first i think so yes is there a sense in which grenfell tower was being used as a guinea pig an experiment for rs-5000
01:00:34 an experiment for rs-5000 i i didn't see it that way no can we go to cel 50558 please
01:00:46 this is an email of the 9th of april 2015
01:00:55 to the salesforce team from you regarding a draft template for grenfell tower case study template for grenfell tower is the subject line
01:01:08 for grenfell tower is the subject line did you draft this text the the this is a sort of prescribed documents which the information was put against the the
01:01:19 the information was put against the the bold
01:01:20 bold uh text there so i was literally just filling in components that i was being asked for from that document
01:01:30 so is this this is a draft template case study
01:01:33 study going around was it in cellotex this time
01:01:36 time this is a sort of a standard document yes
01:01:44 and we can see if we go to page
01:01:50 one at the bottom it says what application was celotex used in and you just put rain screen i suppose that's a
01:02:04 a pithy way of describing it but wouldn't it be obvious to anybody that rs 5000 was going to be used in rain screen given that rs stood for rain screen no not necessarily
01:02:17 stood for rain screen no not necessarily these types of documents often said the application quite simplistically like that
01:02:22 like that and then the product that was used in that application
01:02:32 right
01:02:36 i see and if you go five bullet points down
01:02:49 you can see there's a question why celetex was used see that correct yes and it says performance and value
01:03:00 performance and value would that include fire performance or would it only include thermal performance i think the idea there is thermal performance
01:03:14 now let's look at cel 50566
01:03:23 this is a fuller version of the celetex case study for grenfell tower which i think was sent is this right to the
01:03:34 right to the c uh to celetex by the cfa group do you remember the cfa group i can't recall seeing this documents right okay let's see if we can do a bit
01:03:45 right okay let's see if we can do a bit better can we go to cel 50564 please
01:03:53 this is an email from somebody called kelly slock to daniel steed dated the 5th of june 2015
01:04:03 2015 and she says hi dan please see attached two times case studies for your approval so far just waiting on quotes as usual i look forward to hearing your thoughts [Applause]
01:04:16 [Applause] did you see this email or the attachment at the time no i didn't was the production of case studies normally outsourced to kelly slow check or the cfa group
01:04:27 kelly slow check or the cfa group i can't be sure that would have been dealt with by the marketing right powder management team going back to the document if we can it's at cel 50566
01:04:39 it's at cel 50566 were you involved in producing the text in this document no i wasn't
01:04:49 did were you are you were you familiar with this kind of document this detailed case study no i wasn't right
01:05:03 do you know who was
01:05:06 i can only think it it would have been the marketing and product management team
01:05:12 team right
01:05:20 and which particular individuals within that team would have been responsible for this document
01:05:27 i i can't be certain
01:05:32 this is more than a flyer isn't it this is a detailed uh document
01:05:38 it it has more in it than yes my my simple document that i completed right
01:05:47 did you know at the time that in addition to your simple document that you completed that we've just seen celitex was sending out sending out more detailed case studies to potential customers
01:05:56 customers such as this i no i didn't you didn't
01:06:02 right
01:06:06 can you give me the name of the person who
01:06:10 who would have been responsible for this document
01:06:13 document to the best of your recollection if if you go back to the email that's this is attached to daniel steed
01:06:21 steed is daniel steve then he may have been the person as part of the marketing team who was tasked with this role right and who was daniel steve's line manager
01:06:33 manager can you refer back to my organogram again yes certainly cel30 is one two two nine eight please
01:06:43 so the second column there okay we can see him on the left-hand side immediately underneath lizzie seaton
01:06:54 so she answers to ben hartle is it better
01:06:58 better becky best heartless becks that's because
01:07:01 because bex heartlebri who answers to paul evans i see so in the end this is paul evans responsibility is it this document that's correct thank you very much
01:07:14 very much yeah um
01:07:19 can we then go to cel
01:07:23 6041 please this is another meeting reminder in your outlook diary for a meeting on the 20th of may 2015 with harley on the
01:07:37 20th of may 2015 with harley on the subject of grenfell tower and indeed at the site and the subject is meeting with ben bailey to review progress and or forward order schedule ryden's main contractor
01:07:50 and that meeting took place i think didn't it
01:07:53 didn't it uh no it didn't i think that the two times i attempted to meet ben with ben on on site he was unavailable i see can we go back to cel401444 please
01:08:15 i'll say back to you i don't think in fact i've shown you this document um but if you look at it it is the salesforce entry and there's a due date there of the 20th of may 2015
01:08:26 of may 2015 relating to grenfell tower and the name on the right-hand side is mark harris and you can see that it says comments products starting to be installed mark wanted to know if we could offer
01:08:37 wanted to know if we could offer any um letter detailing that harley are an approved staller installer of celetex products reason being that he has been asked by the mc rydens who in turn have been asked by kensington and chelsea council
01:08:49 asked by kensington and chelsea council is they wish to apply for drawing down money from an eco fund emailed
01:08:54 emailed john is that jono uh that's correct yes that john roper uh no um that's uh richard john who is a business development manager right and paul evans to explore options and
01:09:06 and paul evans to explore options and we'll feed back to mark
01:09:14 uh uh
01:09:22 did did you actually in the end offer hardly any letter to the effect that they were an approved installer i didn't know
01:09:37 was there a meeting on site at grenfell tower at this time no i think it's likely that the as you see the task topic it says site visit there um it's
01:09:48 topic it says site visit there um it's likely
01:09:48 likely being that it was conversation with mark harris
01:09:52 harris um it's more likely that this was i'd pre
01:09:56 pre sort of fixed the meeting record in the database and i just hadn't updated the task topic to something like phone call right so you didn't have a site visit no i didn't despite this document that's
01:10:09 no i didn't despite this document that's correct right
01:10:13 can we then turn to a different topic [Applause]
01:10:22 and mr chairman this topic will probably take about 10 minutes but i can make decent progress on it if i get through it well if you'd like to start that'll be right thank you the topic is the promotion of rs 5000
01:10:33 the topic is the promotion of rs 5000 for grenfell tower now i think given everything we've looked at so far mr room it's right to say isn't it that celetex through you were seeking to promote rs 5000 for use on grenfell tower
01:10:44 on grenfell tower that's correct yes can we look at cel 6031 please
01:10:52 and i'd like to get a page two in that email run
01:10:59 email run uh and this is an email from you to ben bailey on the 16th of march 2015 at 9 42 in the morning um and it says re grenfell tower celetex
01:11:11 and it says re grenfell tower celetex uh hi ben is this would be a special order do you need exactly 1900 square meters or would you need to be more to be safe mindful that we would have to produce in one complete run please let me know and
01:11:22 one complete run please let me know and i will speak to our factory about lead times and then you say please can you also let me know who you would be buying this through and i will arrange a list price for the distributors involved so you can get the best
01:11:31 best competitive price brackets were you offering to arrange the best competitive prices you put it to seek to clinch a deal for the use of rs 5000 the grenfell tower
01:11:43 grenfell tower i think it was just a phrase i'd i'd used but it it just meant that i would be able to get the the pricing sorted out for him really
01:11:53 really right in order to clinch the deal well i think that the deal was already there he he'd already or harley had already made the decision to purchase the material i see but as a special favor then to a
01:12:05 but as a special favor then to a customer who'd shown willing and bought the product no no favor given though why did you uh tell him that you want you were going to arrange a list price for the distributors so that
01:12:16 distributors so that harley could get the best most competitive price or competitive price why did you do that i suppose it's a just a phrase i used to say that you know if we'd spoken to the distributor beforehand
01:12:27 beforehand then they would be more aware and of the quantity and the company would therefore give them the appropriate discounts why did you want harley to get the best price
01:12:38 price well just to give them any price to be honest
01:12:41 honest well to get any price you wouldn't have had to have gone through the trouble of arranging a list price for the distributors in order to produce the best brackets competitive price as your email
01:12:52 brackets competitive price as your email states
01:12:54 states well the the company i think with some of these types of products they didn't necessarily have a list price as such this was going to be a
01:13:05 price as such this was going to be a bespoke product wasn't it i think a bespoke size that was a thing so if it was a non-standard size which i think was this is what they were going to have to produce they would need a an
01:13:17 to produce they would need a an appropriate list price discount i see so by list price you had to arrange a specific price for the distributors for this thickness because they didn't have one
01:13:28 one i think that was the case i follow and why would that result in harley getting the best price
01:13:38 i i think it's just a term that i'd used well i know i just want to know why you used it i can't i can't be sure unfortunately okay um can we then look up this email string
01:13:51 can we then look up this email string to page one please which is a little bit later on that day and you're told by ben bailey and i've skipped over it that they were using sig as their distributor
01:14:03 distributor and uh you um say uh to ben bailey on the 16th of march perfect the 80 million the 80 millimeters are a standard size so it should be easy enough to get hold
01:14:14 so it should be easy enough to get hold of and then you say do you know which sig branch that you're using and who you speak to it will then be easier for me to make sure that the pricing and supply chain is looked after for you what do you mean by looked after
01:14:28 what do you mean by looked after well i think it was just because the if we knew which or celotex knew which sig branch was being used then they could be in contact with them directly to make sure that sort of
01:14:41 directly to make sure that sort of process the supply chain process went more smoothly and then at the top of the page we could see ben bailey comes back to you and says we've been speaking to a lady called jill walker at the maidstone branch
01:14:52 branch see that and we can see then the next document
01:15:08 cel6032 uh jill walker uh
01:15:16 sends an email essentially to herself and then
01:15:21 and then to you on the 17th of march as promised with a quotation for rs and she's got rs5160 for holly curtin wall
01:15:32 rs5160 for holly curtin wall uh if we
01:15:35 uh if we um we'll look at the actual quotation in a moment but was it common practice for third-party distributors such as sig to send you celetex the quote that they were providing to their customer
01:15:49 i can't be sure no you see you can't be sure i mean is that a no or don't know for me personally no no um but i can't say for others no
01:16:02 no no um but i can't say for others no do you know why she did so on this occasion i think it may be because i'd asked to be you know kept up to speed about the project so she was just reciprocating
01:16:14 so she was just reciprocating an email to me let's look at the actual quotation cell6035 please
01:16:28 this is a formal sig quotation to harley as you can see dated the 17th of march 2015 for the attention of ben bailey
01:16:40 for the attention of ben bailey uh and it says dear sirs re and then 10 grenfell tower wll rs5160 just just help me with rs 5160 is that a
01:16:53 just just help me with rs 5160 is that a mistake
01:16:54 mistake or is that is that something so the normal culture there would be the rs 5 as in 5000 and then the 160 refer refers to the the thickness i follow
01:17:05 follow and then it says supply and delivery only product celatex rs 5000 specials quantity 660 each price 132 pound 19p per each
01:17:15 per each discount minus 47.50 percent with a total price of 45 803 pounds 84p did you arrange or authorize that
01:17:27 did you arrange or authorize that discount
01:17:29 discount no that's that's a discount that is between the sig branch the distributor and their customer so we would not have any
01:17:40 any input into that
01:17:43 you could nonetheless see that it was happening could you i could see what it is yes
01:17:51 did the discount that sig was offering affect the amount that um sig would account two ufo or buy from you for four i couldn't say
01:18:02 or buy from you for four i couldn't say i mean it's with um construction materials generally discounts are given and even as far back as when
01:18:10 as when i had a tenure with general electric we offered discounts as high as 80 90 on some products it just really depends on the
01:18:20 on the the net price and the the list price really it just the higher the list price the more scope or tweaking of i suppose
01:18:28 i suppose the discount really right you say we would not have any input into that can we just look at cel 50463 please
01:18:39 which is an email run on the 16th of march the day before and i'd like to start at the bottom of page two
01:18:52 and it runs over to page three but let's start at the bottom of page two this is an email from you to claire terry
01:19:01 on the 16th of march morning claire i hope you had a lovely weekend etc and then at the bottom it says please can you let me know if we can do the following for harley and then over the page please to page three top of page three
01:19:13 three top of page three manufacturer of 100 millimeter 160 millimeter special rs5 1900 square meters list price for the distributor lead time i will then get the order through the distributor
01:19:24 through the distributor and confirm and if we scroll up to page one
01:19:31 we can see that paul evans
01:19:38 uh sets out same day uh hi claire list price of 45 pounds 90p per square meter less standard terms minimum order of 600 square meters and 10 to 15 day
01:19:49 square meters and 10 to 15 day working day lead time
01:19:53 so just looking at that that paul evans set the terms didn't he that was common practice yes so claire terry worked in the customer services team
01:20:06 customer services team and they would be dealing with sort of deliveries to distributors and pricing and if there was something a price that was needed
01:20:16 needed or list price for instance for something that's not a standard then it would be her job to go back to the head of product management or part of the commercial team to set that price
01:20:30 is the correct sequence here that you asked ben bailey who their distributor was
01:20:34 was he told you it was sig you then asked claire terry who is sick internally what could be done by way of offering list price no sorry claire terry was in the celetex customer services team so it's jill
01:20:46 customer services team so it's jill walker who was at sig jill walker was at sig i see claire terry was celetex as well was she in the customer services services team i follow mr mr evans paul
01:20:59 services team i follow mr mr evans paul evans authorized the price and you then relayed that to sick uh i think yeah i think claire may have done that because she had that right direct connection with uh sig that
01:21:10 right direct connection with uh sig that was her
01:21:10 was her role how would sig make any profit if it was going to offer a discount of 47 odd percent i i can't tell you i don't know what their terms are i don't know what their their in
01:21:23 i don't know what their their in discounts from celestex would be that would be part of the commercial team was the was the practice of offering substantial discounts off list price one which celetex adopted for marketing rs 5000 not though
01:21:35 adopted for marketing rs 5000 not though now of no
01:21:38 now of no now in the end we know that harley didn't actually order this run um instead it order it used 80 millimeters doubled up didn't it i think that's correct yes
01:21:49 correct yes let's look at sig 6022 please this is the first invoice for the rs 5080 which i think has you've
01:22:01 for the rs 5080 which i think has you've explained is rs 5000 with depths of 80 80 millimeters and this is a sig invoice to harley first of april 2015
01:22:13 to harley first of april 2015 where we see uh the order for that 18 millimeters times 100 and
01:22:19 and times 1200 millimeters times 2400 millimeters and the price there you see that
01:22:29 23.37 which again represents a discount of 47.5 percent now we don't think this was sent to you
01:22:40 now we don't think this was sent to you but we could see that the same discount was applied as i've shown you did you arrange that discount or was that solely something that sig was offering
01:22:47 offering this is the the terms that um harley would have had with their the distributor which is sig so that is solely
01:22:56 solely what they offered to harley right so i think what you're telling us is that the discount arrangements were nothing to do with seller tax that was purely a matter of between sig your distributor and
01:23:08 of between sig your distributor and harley is the end customer that's that's correct right
01:23:17 [Applause] mr german i think that's an appropriate good point yes right um mr room will have a short break at this point okay and we'll come back at 20 to 12
01:23:28 okay and we'll come back at 20 to 12 please
01:23:29 please and no talking about your evidence of course while you're out of the room okay all right thank you thank you very much
01:23:52 good 20 to 12 please
01:40:31 would you ask mr roon to come back in please thank you
01:40:47 all right that's the room ready to carry on it um yes thank you thank you yes mr billet
01:40:51 billet thank you mr chairman uh mr room can i ask you to go to your witness statement please at page 21
01:40:59 and i'd like to look with you please at paragraphs 69 1771 which is about an email you got from daniel anchored jones on the 16th of
01:41:09 of january 2015. i'll show you the email in a moment
01:41:14 a moment you say on the 16th of january 2015 i received an email from daniel and jones regarding rs 5000
01:41:21 5000 did you exhibit it does not mention grenfell tower and i do not know or recall who the clients referred to where daniel liked to jones email states we've been asked by one of our clients to see the test results and certificates for
01:41:33 the test results and certificates for the rs 5000 insulation they want to know exactly how it was installed when it was tested to bs 8414 part 2 2005. who carried out the testing how it was fixed what it was covered
01:41:44 how it was fixed what it was covered with what cladding was used what support structure etc and most importantly the results drawings or photos of the test setup which helped show how it was installed but i imagine these form part of the test results anyway
01:41:56 test results anyway and then if we can go over the page please to paragraph to page 22 you continue they also want to see the certificates and results for the test to bs 476 part 7 fire class rating showing the index
01:42:08 fire class rating showing the index rating achieved during the test could you sort this out for us please and then you say i forwarded this request on to jamie hayes celetex's technical services team leader now i've
01:42:20 technical services team leader now i've shown you that because i want to show you the actual email which is at cel506019 six zero is one nine at page two
01:42:39 now we can see the email at the foot of or halfway down that page and your response to him just above it
01:42:48 above it but he starts by saying good morning john sorry but got a headache for you now as you'll have seen from the quotation that you put in your
01:42:59 the quotation that you put in your witness statement you omitted that part of the email which said sorry but got a headache for you why was that
01:43:08 that i i don't know
01:43:12 did you agree in your own mind at the time that the question that he then asked you was a headache
01:43:21 um not not particularly no he's just asking for some documents did did you did you ask yourself why daniel lancaster jones might have thought that the request he was making of you would be a headache for
01:43:33 making of you would be a headache for you
01:43:36 you i no i can't think why
01:43:40 was it a headache because it was a penetrating request that had come from one of harley's customers for details that celetex did not wish to make public
01:43:51 i didn't read it like that no i'd i'd had emails from other contractors asking for um information data and again i'd sent those to
01:44:04 the product management team in the in the past so it wasn't um a strange thing to receive
01:44:14 it's right isn't it that answering these questions
01:44:17 questions fully and honestly would expose the very limited basis on which rs 5000 could actually be used compliantly above 18 meters i mean looking at that now and
01:44:29 i mean looking at that now and understanding it now i would say yes why didn't you understand it that way at the time
01:44:39 i i don't think i fully understood the the whole
01:44:43 the whole way that the the system worked or the testing regime worked and how it was interpreted
01:44:51 well you must have understood surely given
01:44:54 given what you knew about the build up and the caveat in the marketing literature which related to the buildup that by answering all these detailed questions that would give celetex the
01:45:06 questions that would give celetex the headache
01:45:06 headache because it would expose the fact that the use of rs 5000 to which it could be put above 80 meters in compliance with the building regulations was extremely limited
01:45:17 regulations was extremely limited no i suppose yes and that must have occurred to you at the time given what you knew at the time no i i can't be certain no i'm not asking you to be certain but
01:45:28 no i'm not asking you to be certain but i'm asking you to accept what i'm putting to you as really obvious yes and and that it occur it actually occurred to you at the time and then if you look at the last
01:45:40 and then if you look at the last paragraph he asks about bs476 an ultimate paragraph and then says in the last paragraph we are hoping to put this forward on most of the cladding job so having this
01:45:52 most of the cladding job so having this information to be to hand would be most useful now again your quotation in paragraph 70 of your witness statement has omitted that part
01:46:00 that part of of uh mr anger jones's email why was that i i don't know was it because you knew at the time that this was a serious problem and
01:46:11 this was a serious problem and if this data was made public it would make your job in selling rs 5000 all the harder
01:46:16 harder and you didn't want to draw attention to it well no because i i didn't i didn't know what celetex would
01:46:24 would or what documents that they would release
01:46:27 release now mr ankur james told us that uh this request
01:46:31 request that he was made he was making all view was not in relation to the grenfell tower project did you understand it that way as far as i could see there there was no
01:46:42 as far as i could see there there was no reference to uh grenfell tower in this email no did you not wonder why mr anchoral jones had not asked you those questions in relation to the grenfell tower project itself
01:46:53 grenfell tower project itself i didn't know why is that i i i couldn't tell you i don't know did you think it was unusual that mr ankertle jones was expressing his customers or
01:47:05 was expressing his customers or potential customers desire for these detailed uh these detailed
01:47:12 detailed matters so could you pose that question again do you think that it was unusual that mr ankertel jones was
01:47:20 jones was asking these questions i didn't think it's unusual no have you been asked these sorts of questions before the middle of january 2015 by any other cladding subcontractor main
01:47:32 by any other cladding subcontractor main contractor or other kind of customer i can't be sure this is the first time to the best of your recollection uh that somebody had actually asked for these detailed
01:47:43 detailed uh matters these detailed uh questions in relation to the building up of what the actual system tested was i i can't be sure i'm afraid
01:47:55 i i can't be sure i'm afraid nonetheless when this request came through did it not go through your mind as to why it was that anchored jones was not asking the same questions in relation to the grenfell tower project no it didn't i mean they're good
01:48:06 no it didn't i mean they're good questions aren't they yeah and did you not think that mr ankle jones was somehow laboring under under a misapprehension or an illusion
01:48:17 under a misapprehension or an illusion about rs 5000 given that he was asking these questions for a non grenfell tower customer but had not actually asked the questions in relation to grenfell tower itself
01:48:27 no i think he was you know being asked by a specialist a consultant about the documents and he was i don't understand why he had not asked
01:48:40 i don't understand why he had not asked these before four before um for grenfell no and was did it not occur to you that one of the reasons why he hadn't asked these questions was because
01:48:51 these questions was because he wasn't a specialist
01:48:54 it didn't cross my mind to know or alternatively that although he knew that one of his customers wanted to know these details uh he didn't want to know it and his customer i didn't want to know it in relation to the grenfell
01:49:05 know it in relation to the grenfell tower project it did not cross your mind it didn't snow
01:49:12 did you think about it at all i can't say i didn't know
01:49:19 and you say paragraph 71 of your witness statement as we've seen that you forwarded this to jamie hayes who was seller texas technical services team leader
01:49:29 and if we go to cel 50453
01:49:35 we can look at the email halfway down the page
01:49:48 uh and it says uh hi jamie uh you say to him this is 19th of january 2015. do we have the test results for rs 5000 for the bs 476 part
01:50:00 results for rs 5000 for the bs 476 part 7
01:50:01 7 fire class rating as dan mentions below i can always go and visit dan to discuss the bs 8414 part 2 test results in person
01:50:12 why would you need to go to see him to discuss those results in person i think this is in relation to going back to one of your questions yesterday about the release of documents
01:50:25 yesterday about the release of documents and the word i was looking for is um confidential documents within celetex that if
01:50:33 that if celestex weren't to provide sort of a document that would be sent by email then i could if if i was allowed take a document directly to dan
01:50:44 directly to dan in person as a suggestion that was
01:50:50 leave aside the question of the confidentiality of the test results um it's clear from this email that you thought that it might be necessary to go and have a detailed conversation with daniel lachtel-jones
01:51:01 daniel lachtel-jones about the bs-8414 test is that right that's correct and what were you contemplating you would tell him about the test
01:51:09 the test if you did go and visit him and have that discussion
01:51:13 i don't know what questions were going to be posed so it would be me showing him the documents for him to review himself and answer any questions that he
01:51:25 himself and answer any questions that he or his specialist consultant would have had right and that would have revealed that conversation had you had it would have revealed a very limited basis on which rs 5000 could uh safely be used above 18
01:51:37 rs 5000 could uh safely be used above 18 meters
01:51:38 meters compliant with the building regulations and to prove document b no it would have done yes therefore it's unlikely isn't it that it's a conversation you would have wanted to
01:51:49 conversation you would have wanted to have with danny uncle ankurtal jones um no i would have had that conversation with him yes and i would have suggest i suggest that it's unlikely that you would have wanted to do that because it would have revealed to
01:52:00 would have revealed to mr ankle-jones a potentially useful customer
01:52:04 customer that rs-5000 was not actually a material you could market very widely
01:52:13 it it's difficult to say because it was a new product and it was in i suppose in development i suppose so that particular tests
01:52:24 so that particular tests would probably have not helped no no um i take it you didn't go and visit dan and discuss the 8414 tests i didn't no why is that
01:52:37 i think later up the email it will explain that those documents would not be released you're right and uh you know the documents well let's go to that
01:52:48 documents well let's go to that can we please go to the top of uh page one
01:52:53 one uh this is the email back to you on the 19th of january 2015 same day an hour and a half or so later uh hi jonathan i'm afraid i do not have access to that document
01:53:05 have access to that document i imagine this that this will be a controlled document and only available through marketing i'm not sure if there would be a requirement for a non-disclosure agreement etc question please speak to debs in the first instance and she's copied of
01:53:17 first instance and she's copied of course
01:53:17 course and if necessary she will have a chat with paul paul evans would have been sorry that would have been paul evans wouldn't it that's correct and debs is clearly debbie berger do you know what happened
01:53:29 know what happened to this discussion whether it went further than this after the 19th of january 2015. i i i can only recall that
01:53:40 i i i can only recall that nothing well not nothing happened but i wasn't released any documents to to send across um i think the only thing that
01:53:48 that i had was the um i think it was the the 12-page document that we looked at yesterday
01:53:59 let's go back to cel 50119 please
01:54:13 and go to page two within that cel five zeros
01:54:17 zeros one one nine uh that is a wrong reference
01:54:31 let's go sorry
01:54:41 uh six zeroes one nine
01:54:47 cel six zero is one nine
01:54:56 yes thank you now you could see from the bottom of page one
01:55:03 one that he mr angle jones comes back to you on the 20th of january subject re-rs 5000
01:55:11 5000 morning john and then over the page at page two
01:55:20 uh he's you you he says to you fingers crossed you can get this for us i'm worried that if this can't be cleared up then we will have to change the rockwool duo slab as this has the
01:55:31 the rockwool duo slab as this has the necessary backup to appease the specialists when you got that email what did you understand mr anchor meant by the necessary backup
01:55:44 like i can only think that it was information that people like fire specialists were requesting
01:55:54 what was that i suppose test test data that said that have been used to bring the product into the marketplace
01:56:08 were you concerned that rs 5000 might not have that
01:56:12 no
01:56:16 were you concerned that your customer on a project or potential customer on a project and indeed other projects including grenfell tower would go elsewhere in the absence of the
01:56:28 would go elsewhere in the absence of the backup that mr ankador jones was after i expect that was
01:56:33 was what could be deemed from that that statement yes and who were the specialists in quotation marks that he meant did you think what was your understanding about what he meant there
01:56:44 understanding about what he meant there it could be anyone in an advisory capacity
01:56:47 capacity like a fire specialist or a structural specialist i suppose someone who's been employed on on a project
01:56:54 project as a consultant did you work out from that that
01:56:57 that that the questions that have been posed to you in his headache email which we can see lower down the page of the 16th of january 2015 would have originated with a specialist
01:57:09 originated with a specialist and the reason they hadn't been asked on the grenfell tower project is because on that project there was no specialist i
01:57:16 i i didn't know there was no specialist involved it didn't occur to you that these questions had originated from specialists and that explain why there wasn't any such set of questions
01:57:27 there wasn't any such set of questions being posed to you in relation to the grenfell tower project itself no
01:57:34 why didn't you just level with him at that stage and tell him that back up or no backup he simply couldn't use rs 5000 on any of his projects unless the cladding systems were
01:57:45 cladding systems were in each case exactly as tested by celetex under the 8414 test that had been passed in may 2014 uh i don't know
01:58:00 given these questions that were being posed
01:58:06 posed surely you realized at that time if not earlier
01:58:09 earlier that daniel angril jones hadn't read the caveat in the literature or else had done and either hadn't understood it or was proposing to ignore it that must be right surely i didn't take
01:58:22 that must be right surely i didn't take that for you no if he had read the caveat in the marketing literature we've been through that a number of times he couldn't possibly have asked these questions could he
01:58:34 these questions could he possibly not no and therefore i'm putting to you that you must have realized
01:58:38 realized uh that either he hadn't read the caveat hadn't understood the caveat or was preparing to or proposing to ignore the caveat
01:58:50 i i couldn't answer that well is there any other explanation for these questions
01:58:56 questions no but it didn't occur to you at the time
01:58:59 time it didn't no
01:59:04 if we look at your response to the dan email fingers crossed email at the bottom of page one of this email chain please you send him
01:59:18 you send him this is the top of page one now uh on the 21st of january 2015 uh the 12-page bsa414 report
01:59:30 uh the 12-page bsa414 report showing the build up and components used can you see that i can yes and you say in addition i'm sending you the thermal couple thermocouple graphs showing the temperatures at each level of the test
01:59:42 and you say i'm not able to send you the bs 476 test document as this is confidential i'd be surprised if you were able to get this or any other report from the manufacturer to be honest in lieu of this i've attached the data
01:59:53 in lieu of this i've attached the data sheet showing the confirmation of the products having a bs 476 part 6 and seven which gives it class naught performance in addition to the bsa414 test
02:00:02 test i would ask that these documents are not shared outside of the network of you and your specialist advisor for this project give me a call when you have a moment to discuss now before you send this did you have or had you had any discussion internally
02:00:13 had you had any discussion internally within celetex about what you should send daniel and kittle jones in response to his request i think i must have done yes do you know who that was with um i suppose the only parties that would
02:00:26 um i suppose the only parties that would have been
02:00:28 have been able to give me any sort of response would have been i suppose jamie hayes who
02:00:32 who was the the first email recipient and it may have been someone like um debbie berger or paul evans
02:00:44 debbie berger or paul evans i can't be sure now we could see that you sent him the 12-page document
02:00:52 that's the first time you've sent him that because we as we saw yesterday you only sent him the four-page affiliated version at the end of august 2014 didn't you
02:01:04 at the end of august 2014 didn't you yes do we take it that it wasn't until january 2015 some four months later that you got round to sending him the 12-page document
02:01:14 document and only when he asked i think this must have been
02:01:18 have been the case i can't recall sending him the 12 page before that no right and even though you're sending him a 12-page
02:01:27 a 12-page classification report why didn't you send him the full 32-page or 33-page bs-8414 test report itself wasn't made available to myself or
02:01:38 wasn't made available to myself or anyone else within the sales team and i think it was deemed confidential right
02:01:45 if we go to that that's at cel401109
02:01:52 that's the first of august 2014 issue one of the actual bre global test report
02:02:00 report report number 295369 you see that i do um had you seen that document at this time to january 2015 yourself
02:02:12 at this time to january 2015 yourself never no you say never did did you do you never see it during your time no celertex i see um then there's probably only limited amount i can ask you about it but can we
02:02:23 amount i can ask you about it but can we look at page 29
02:02:27 this is a figure 819 which is a photograph showing the condition of the cladding system post test insulation layer
02:02:38 test insulation layer is that a photograph that you'd ever seen before no i think this is from what we know now was the first test that failed
02:02:51 but it's not a document that i'd ever
02:02:58 seen
02:03:04 well you say from what you know now is the first test that failed just by looking at the first part by looking at the first what if you look at the first page of that
02:03:15 if you look at the first page of that document
02:03:16 document yes well let's just i'm just surmising because it says the issue one and on the four page and the twelve page documents that we were sending out it said issue two so i i can only surmise that
02:03:29 issue two so i i can only surmise that this must have been the report from the first failed test i might be wrong but you are wrong am i okay uh you are wrong about that uh and the surmise you've made is is
02:03:40 uh and the surmise you've made is is wrong because issue 2 uh happened only because there was a an error
02:03:45 error um essentially a typographical error in issue 1 of a classification report of 12 pages
02:03:52 12 pages okay apologies so my question again then coming back to page 29 this is a photograph showing uh the rig after the 2000 and may 2014 test after the test is that a
02:04:05 may 2014 test after the test is that a photograph you've ever seen before it's not known i see um can we then go to cel six zeros 23 please
02:04:20 uh now this is mr anchor jones's response to your email it's at the foot of page one morning john he says thanks for this sorry i didn't call back yesterday
02:04:31 sorry i didn't call back yesterday didn't finish till six i will look through it and try and give you a call back did you leave a message the day before to call you i i must have done looking at the the
02:04:43 i i must have done looking at the the text there yes were you very keen to speak to him
02:04:48 i think well it was just courtesy that i followed it up with a conversation yes we can then see from the top of the page uh
02:04:56 uh you uh respond to him about an hour later on the same day 21st of january 2015 and you say give me a call whenever you have a moment did you have a conversation did you think i i can't recall
02:05:07 think i i can't recall no can we go look at ceo403628 please
02:05:15 and this is later in the year april 2015 and it's an email from you to mr ankita jones on the 8th of april that year attaching the bca guidance note entitled
02:05:26 attaching the bca guidance note entitled technical guidance note 18 issue naught june 2014
02:05:30 june 2014 and we've seen that i think before uh and you start by thanking him for his time today you say hi dan thanks for your time today to get an update on projects and family
02:05:42 projects and family and then you in the third line you say i have attached the building control guidance notes for insulation products above 18 meters which seem to be doing the rounds at the moment if you do find you're entering into conversations regarding this subject please let me know what is being
02:05:53 subject please let me know what is being said and by whom
02:05:57 uh do you recall the conversation on the eighth of april 2015 particularly i i don't know but like everything i i often wrote down notes to refresh my
02:06:08 i i often wrote down notes to refresh my memory
02:06:10 memory are there any notes of that conversation that you've seen no only what we can see there right
02:06:18 so can we take it that this email followed a conversation with between you and mr ankur-jones of which there is no other note i should imagine so unless it's there's a reference that i made in the um the database
02:06:30 um the database to say to elaborate on that conversation right
02:06:35 did you discuss grenfell tower do you think is there a during that discussion or was it more general i i can't be sure it looks as if you might have discussed premiere house because that's referred to in the second line but yes
02:06:47 to in the second line but yes you can't recall no now at this point uh just for your information harley had already ordered and been invoiced for a quantity of rs 5000 fort grenfell tower
02:06:58 quantity of rs 5000 fort grenfell tower in mid-march uh you say here that the um bca technical guidance note it was doing the rounds what did you mean doing the rounds
02:07:12 mean doing the rounds i think this was a document which a lot of installers or i don't know specialists but a lot of people in that industry had been uh referring to or um
02:07:24 uh referring to or um mentioning when did you first see it i i can't be sure did when you saw it did you read it thoroughly um i read through it i can't say i read
02:07:35 um i read through it i can't say i read through it thoroughly but i i definitely referred to it yes is there anything in it which concerned you do you remember i don't think so no would you not have expected harley to be aware of it being a specialist
02:07:47 be aware of it being a specialist cladding subcontractor in the industry yes i would have thought so yes why were you sending it to him then because i think dan hadn't seen it so i
02:07:58 because i think dan hadn't seen it so i think when we spoke um he may have asked me to to send it to him did it surprise you that he hadn't seen it as you say um i suppose it was a document that i
02:08:10 um i suppose it was a document that i would have thought he would have seen being in the in this in the industry so i suppose yeah i suppose yes simple answer well yes i mean do you recall being surprised
02:08:22 yes i mean do you recall being surprised that being a specialist or being involved with a specialist subcontractor in the clouding industry he hadn't seen it i suppose yes it's the answer yes and did that not alert you to the fact
02:08:33 did that not alert you to the fact that whatever other skills and expertise daniel and james had it wasn't in relation to cladding it didn't no it didn't cross my mind
02:08:44 and that he didn't have specialist sub specialist consultant or sub-consultant assistants it didn't cross my mind no you go on to say as you do at the end there if you do find that you're entering into
02:08:55 if you do find that you're entering into conversations regarding the subject please let me know what is being said and by whom this subject what was that i think it's it was going back to my
02:09:07 i think it's it was going back to my sort of gleaning information from the um from the industry to pass up um the chain of command as it were to look at what was being said by which specialists
02:09:20 what was being said by which specialists and that could be fed back to the management team to look at maybe contacting someone or consulting with someone to to help with
02:09:31 consulting with someone to to help with the further development or further testing of the product were you keen to keep your finger on the pulse
02:09:37 pulse because you needed to make sure precisely how variable the cladding systems were into which rs 5000 was being sold i think it was more that i wanted to be
02:09:52 i think it was more that i wanted to be sorry as you said yeah
02:09:55 understand the processes understand the systems because if then i could feed that back to the management teams then they could look at further testing right thank you
02:10:12 you having received or seen the bca building control alliance technical guidance note at this point you could see that it's set out and i don't need to take it take you back to
02:10:23 don't need to take it take you back to it i don't think unless you want to see it but
02:10:24 it but it set out three routes to compliance non
02:10:28 non either limited combustibility or what's been called the linear route a full scale test under bsa414 or a desktop
02:10:37 desktop a desktop study yes desktop study at this point 8th of april 2015 which route to compliance did you think grenfell tower was following
02:10:53 i would have thought it would have followed the the third route to compliance there you say you would have thought did you think i i can't say um again we've covered this this morning
02:11:05 again we've covered this this morning but you hadn't seen a desktop study for uh rs 5000 not internally at celetex no and you hadn't seen one from harley no i hadn't and to your knowledge did
02:11:17 no i hadn't and to your knowledge did one exist at all not at that time no so how could it be a route to compliance
02:11:26 the option was there but i didn't see any backup any evidence no so how could it be a route to compliance in your mind
02:11:37 route to compliance in your mind i'm reflecting it couldn't be
02:11:41 i'd like to turn to your relationship celestex's relationship with the bre can we go to bre 403742 please
02:11:55 this is an email and i'd like to look at the
02:11:59 the second email down on that page first from it's an email from you to sarah colwell of the 15th of october 2014 and you say hi sarah it was lovely to
02:12:11 and you say hi sarah it was lovely to finally meet you at the cwct conference last week
02:12:15 last week i would like to take you up on your offer of a copy of the br 135 document is the one that i've managed to find in the office is a little too well thumbed i would also like to be able to read back through your presentation if you're
02:12:26 back through your presentation if you're able to send me a copy i attempted to scribble down a number of notes during your presentation but being able to read back through the pages i feel would be beneficial i think the conference showed that there is still a great deal of uncertainty
02:12:37 great deal of uncertainty over the choice of materials for a facade build up and i myself and i'm sure everyone is eagerly awaiting the final publication of the guidance documents
02:12:45 documents even when i am up in your neck of the woods i would make a point of giving i will make a point of giving you a call for a coffee and a catch up if you're free
02:12:54 now just pausing there we can see she responds to you uh not much later in that afternoon on the 15th of october 2014. uh but i just want to ask you about your
02:13:05 uh but i just want to ask you about your me email you say it was lovely to finally meet you was that at the cwct conference earlier in october that we discussed earlier i think it was yes had you corresponded with her before
02:13:16 had you corresponded with her before this email to her i don't think so no so you did it right that you therefore simply knew her through her work uh at the and her presentation i think that's correct yes right did you know
02:13:27 that's correct yes right did you know her
02:13:28 her through by reputation no it was literally just her name was on the
02:13:35 the document i think or i later found that she was a
02:13:39 she was a the co-author of the br135 yes and you say you'll make a point of giving her a call for coffee and a catch-up if she's free was celetex trying to cultivate the bre
02:13:50 trying to cultivate the bre no it was just a like i said before is just trying to glean information that would help celetex or whether it's from me or from others that i could put people in touch with celetex to
02:14:02 put people in touch with celetex to better instruct them as to how develop how to better develop that product or test the product
02:14:09 what information were you trying to glean from her
02:14:14 i i don't know any any information that would help celestex really specific i'm so sorry what sort of information did you think of the time would help celetex
02:14:26 would help celetex that the bre could give you
02:14:29 i suppose a guidance to the systems that were often tested maybe
02:14:38 were you looking to find out whether there was any room for maneuver in relation to your 8414 test that you had done so that you could for example sell it
02:14:49 so that you could for example sell it into systems using different components no because i was not involved in the the testing or development or release of that
02:14:57 that of that product [Applause]
02:15:04 in the penultimate paragraph as i've shown you you refer to a great deal of uncertainty over the choice of materials for a facade build-up
02:15:13 what were you referring to there what was that uncertainty
02:15:19 i think it's again it was the you know the choice of the materials that would be you know used um in future tests i think that was the the information i was looking for
02:15:35 you say uncertainty in relation to materials with future tests
02:15:42 is that right or did you mean there was uncertainty about what materials you could choose to use in a cladding system where rs 5000 had passed
02:15:55 where rs 5000 had passed an 8414 test
02:15:58 i i can't be certain from what i meant by that uh that text there but let me try and get at this a different way when you said uncertainty over the choice of
02:16:09 said uncertainty over the choice of materials for a facade buildup did you really mean a choice of materials for a successful test
02:16:16 test under 8414 or did you mean what what materials
02:16:20 materials a designer could choose in the light of a bs 8414 test
02:16:27 i suppose a bit of both really right and does that tell us that you and your own mind were uncertain about how far you could depart
02:16:39 about how far you could depart in choosing materials for a facade build up
02:16:42 up from the 8414 test that rs 5000 had passed in may 2014 possibly yes
02:16:54 can we look at cel401036
02:17:02 uh this is an email we looked at earlier relating to the cwct seminar and this was in relation to your contact with mr angle jones we looked at it
02:17:13 with mr angle jones we looked at it before
02:17:13 before do you remember we saw it yesterday yes we can see sarah colwell's name prominently emboldened in the middle of the page
02:17:22 and at the end of the email towards the end of the email before the reference to chris lewis i showed you the sentence that says
02:17:27 that says as we have nearly all found out the whole issue around bsa414 is far more complex than we first thought looking back on the what we've now looked at between uh yesterday and today the whole issue
02:17:39 uh yesterday and today the whole issue isn't it is this right is was actually the extent to which a clouding system could depart from the precise components and dimensions of the system as tested yes
02:17:53 of the system as tested yes now going back if we can uh to uh the question of the meeting with sarah colwell you told us yesterday that there actually was a meeting that you attended
02:18:04 actually was a meeting that you attended with debbie uh berger which was potentially going to happen with sarah colwell but in fact in the end was with stephen howard yes that's correct and that happened on the 4th of november 2014 i think didn't it
02:18:15 november 2014 i think didn't it i think so yes um can we look at um did you fix that meeting after your email exchange with her on the 15th of october were you offered to come up and have coffee i think i must have done yes uh let's
02:18:28 i think i must have done yes uh let's look and see how this was set up can we go to bre 40s 3744 please uh this is uh a an outlook diary entry
02:18:44 uh this is uh a an outlook diary entry uh and it looks like it's debbie burgers i stand corrected yes it looks like debbie was the organizer right okay and the meet the start and end was the 4th of november tuesday the 4th of november 2014. she
02:18:57 tuesday the 4th of november 2014. she says hi steve thank you your call last week both jonathan and i would like to visit you at the bre to discuss the fire test report br135 it looks like she spoke to steve being
02:19:08 it looks like she spoke to steve being stephen howard do you remember whether she did or not or what she said to him or he said to her i don't know can we um
02:19:20 i don't know can we um then look at cel402131
02:19:28 this is an email string in mid-october uh which i think i need to look at page two for to start
02:19:40 need to look at page two for to start with
02:19:41 with that's the end of it that's it so it starts with an email from stephen howard uh and if we go to page 1 we can see that he is writing to her the foot of page 1 17th of october 2014
02:19:55 page 1 17th of october 2014 to debbie berger and john ropers i know you didn't see this email but until it was copied to you uh a few days later but she says or he says
02:20:06 a few days later but she says or he says to her we had a conversation a while ago regarding the content of the classification reports and the level of technical detail they contained we need to put a lot of info in but you don't want your competitors to see it
02:20:17 don't want your competitors to see it we have come up with a way of doing it so if this is of interest can you remind me of what you were hoping to achieve sorry it's been a while and i will see if we can do it and then that email uh
02:20:30 and then that email uh goes to you because debbie burger fords it to you on the 20th of october as you can see from the top of the page yes and she says hi i'm going to set up a meeting with steve howard early next week to talk about how to
02:20:41 week to talk about how to detail our bre rs 5000 file report so as it gives us the relevant commercial info without the sensitive stuff
02:20:49 stuff he's got some ideas that could help us would you like to come to this meeting i would value your input if so if so will you give me access to your diary so i can schedule a meeting
02:21:00 was that the meeting that took place it seems as if it was it must have been yes yeah now there's no reference to this meeting at all in your witness statement can you explain why that is
02:21:12 why that is i no i don't have you forgotten about it
02:21:21 no i i i remember the meeting i don't know why i didn't put it into the um the notes right now sarah caldwell i think you told us earlier wasn't there but stephen howard was do you know whether there is a note of
02:21:33 do you know whether there is a note of the meeting
02:21:37 i i don't know unless it's in the salesforce system
02:21:45 right so for myself notes for myself so you would take a note of that meeting by putting your takeaway if you like from it into the salesforce database or maybe a return email to
02:21:57 database or maybe a return email to debbie right yes do you remember sitting at the meeting whether anyone took notes whether debbie or stephen howard i don't know
02:22:06 know did you yourself take notes i might have done at the time yes to refresh my memory afterwards right
02:22:13 right is that where would you have kept those notes do you think
02:22:19 i just in a in a an a4 lined folder i think or you know a book right
02:22:30 do you remember taking notes of this meeting i don't know right um can we go to cel 401034 please
02:22:45 this is an outlook diary entry uh by debbie berger for the same meeting created i think on the 20th of october 2014
02:22:57 the 20th of october 2014 and
02:23:00 you can see underneath it the same text that i showed you before and then underneath that it says notes to discuss engineering judgments you see and it says use of rs 5000 with
02:23:13 you see and it says use of rs 5000 with clt and timber frame identify breadth of parameters for rs 5000 use with cladding types insulation thickness helping hand systems sheathing boards
02:23:28 was that the subject of the meeting that discussion those topics i think it's likely if that's what was written there yes what did you understand by the breadth of parameters for rs 5000
02:23:39 of parameters for rs 5000 use um
02:23:46 use um i suppose with looking at this it was the
02:23:49 the or trying to remember it was the looking at further testing and relevant buildups that could be used in further tests and the scope at which that
02:24:00 tests and the scope at which that those could be interpreted right do you remember whether those matters were discussed at the meeting i can't be sure and by breadth of
02:24:11 i can't be sure and by breadth of parameters you've told us further testing and relevant buildups that could be used in further tests and the scope at which those could be interpreted so does that include how far or with what variety of cladding
02:24:24 how far or with what variety of cladding systems you could use rs 5000 and still be within the parameters of the 8414 test that had been done i think it's based upon desktop studies
02:24:36 upon desktop studies right
02:24:39 was what celestex was after by this meeting from the bre some kind of indication of how wide the range of different cladding systems rs 5000 could be used with yes
02:24:51 rs 5000 could be used with yes thank you can i then move to a slightly different
02:24:57 different topic um which is uh a short one and one document in fact cel401069 and your month-end report
02:25:09 cel401069 and your month-end report from february 2015.
02:25:17 can we go please in that document to page nine
02:25:23 and this is market intelligence a slide for market intelligence
02:25:28 just to before i ask any more questions about this document what was the purpose of this document i think each
02:25:36 each each month we put in information about the projects that we were working on and also any sort of feedback from the market about competitors anything that would be of
02:25:50 competitors anything that would be of relevance to the company i suppose and the the products that we were selling and who did you send this document to at this time february 2015 would it be
02:26:01 at this time february 2015 would it be debbie
02:26:04 i not sure who is on the round rob is it's likely to be the southern sales manager and team right i think i don't know if and maybe senior management might have
02:26:15 and maybe senior management might have been copied in as well i see uh it says under market intelligence rumors that nhbc are in the final stages of issuing a statement that they will no longer offer their warranties on buildings above 18
02:26:26 their warranties on buildings above 18 meters
02:26:27 meters using either a phenolic or pir foam insulation in a facade application unless
02:26:32 unless specifically tested in the build up being used do you know whether nhbc ever did issue such a statement no i can't recall what effect did that
02:26:46 no i can't recall what effect did that rumor have on your on your efforts to sell rs 5000 to potential customers um it didn't it didn't change anything and is that because the caveat
02:26:59 and is that because the caveat unless specifically tested in the build up being used was the same as the caveat you had set out in your marketing literature as we've seen
02:27:10 i suppose so from celotex's point of view yes
02:27:14 view yes and does that tell us and tell me if this is wrong that from your own experience before nhbc uh we're considering issuing this statement if that is indeed the
02:27:25 if that is indeed the case according to the rumors they would have
02:27:28 have accepted and offered warranties on buildings above 18 meters with pir foam insulation in a facade application even though it wasn't specifically tested in the build-up being used
02:27:40 tested in the build-up being used i i couldn't tell you that that was just a just feedback that someone had given me did we get from this that the nhbc were rather behind the curve and that they were prepared to tolerate
02:27:52 and that they were prepared to tolerate to give warranties in respect of the use of rs 5000 above 18 meters even though not specifically tested in the build up being used i i can't be sure but this is to do with
02:28:04 i i can't be sure but this is to do with any
02:28:05 any foam board as it were
02:28:11 oh you say any foam board quite possibly but not any foam board above 18 meters no no can we then turn to your june 2015 draft email that
02:28:24 turn to your june 2015 draft email that you
02:28:24 you um cover at paragraph 60 of your witness statement let's just go to the email
02:28:32 email it's cel401126
02:28:37 and this is a draft email
02:28:41 and you send this email to on the 18th of june 2015 to richard john rob warren uh debbie and debbie berger
02:28:53 rob warren uh debbie and debbie berger subject rs 5018 plus statement jono rob please can you review my generic response to those parties that are awaiting a response on the use of rs 5000
02:29:02 5000 on facades above 18 meters in height on nhbc projects dear x and i'll read it all to you we are currently benchmarking our rs 5000 bs 8414 part 2 test data with the nhbc
02:29:16 bs 8414 part 2 test data with the nhbc and have submitted a number of our own desktop studies to them for comment until this process has been completed we will have to postpone any further testing or desktop studies until the initial process has been completed
02:29:27 initial process has been completed with the nhbc so as not to delay your projects
02:29:31 projects at the critical design and build stages celetex will have to ask you to explore other avenues for insulation products to be used specifically in facades that are over 18 meters in height insured by the nhbc
02:29:41 the nhbc i can only offer my apologize apologies at this time as i thought that the process would be far more advanced by this stage i will of course inform you as soon as i have more positive news
02:29:53 have more positive news now at paragraph 61 of your witness statement
02:29:57 statement and there's no need to see it um you were told not to send this email won't you
02:30:01 you that's correct yes who told you not to send it
02:30:05 send it um
02:30:10 it must have been one of the people that were copied in on on that or sent to in that email right let's go to cel402042 please
02:30:22 let's go to cel402042 please and i'd like to go within that email run to page four
02:30:37 and here we have an email from rob warren to you in response and he says hi jonathan i would not be comfortable for this to go out to our customers in this form you see that i do
02:30:51 and goes on i suggest you wait for monday when paul evans returns from holiday rather than risk potentially sending out a message may not be in line with our communication strategy on rs 5000
02:31:02 communication strategy on rs 5000 as we discussed on the phone i believe that we should look to potentially allowing some customers to request desktop studies however this would depend
02:31:09 depend upon the kind of systems they're proposing to use therefore ahead of a discussion with paul perhaps you could summarize a list of customers who are chasing us along chasing us along with the proposed buildups this may allow us to give the
02:31:20 buildups this may allow us to give the green light to proceed on those projects where we feel there is a better chance of a successful conclusion to the desktop study and be able to respond in some cases with a more positive message uh etc i've copied paul in so he's aware
02:31:32 uh etc i've copied paul in so he's aware of the situation prior to his return from holiday next week thanks for including me in the discussion i hope my contribution has been useful if not feel free to use colorful language at the screen and start making an effigy with no hair
02:31:45 an effigy with no hair now in an email further up the chain at the bottom of page three we can then see
02:31:53 see miss berger's response she follows up and she says in the second paragraph we're working with nhbc to better understand their concerns with rs 5000 and its use on their projects and
02:32:04 and its use on their projects and although
02:32:04 although you may be correct with the details jonathan this is very much work in progress with them until we come to an agreement
02:32:09 agreement and therefore not in capitals the message to go into the market once we have come to an agreement then i agree with rob we can get together when paul is back to decide a strategy and message for an hbc project i knew
02:32:21 and message for an hbc project i knew you gave me a list of projects before our meeting with nhbc but an updated one as rob suggests would be a useful something and then we can see
02:32:33 something and then we can see richard john's response above that but just pausing there uh this stage what did you understand in a nutshell the reasons you were being
02:32:44 in a nutshell the reasons you were being told not to send the email out were probably from a commercial reason that
02:32:51 that it was the wrong statement to be made on behalf of the company at that time or they didn't want that to be issued in that form right were there any desktop studies then available that you'd seen this is mid-june 2015
02:33:05 that you'd seen this is mid-june 2015 yes i think this was very close to the end of the tenure my tenure within the company um i have a feeling there was i think there's two that we were doing for the barclay group at one point
02:33:16 barclay group at one point right now we can then see mr john's richard john's response uh if we go over the page or up the page to page two
02:33:30 uh and it's quite long i just pick it up i think
02:33:34 i think uh at uh
02:33:37 uh at uh the third paragraph jr has been promoting rs 5000 since we went to market and with big players like barclay group and barrett london the pressure for answers is
02:33:48 london the pressure for answers is immense
02:33:49 immense however as both rob and debbie have pointed out we have to be very careful with any wording that may leave us in a vulnerable position or worse still open to legal exploitation and then he says my suggestion is as
02:34:01 and then he says my suggestion is as follows continue to communicate by word of mouth as you did with jordan today with honesty and openness as you agreed earlier this will uphold our integrity during this process agree a soonest date possible for an
02:34:12 agree a soonest date possible for an internal rs 5000 review meeting to include all persons on this email plus the chris nichols
02:34:18 and then it goes on over the page in preparation for this meeting jr and i will compile a full list of parties as rob suggested with as much technical information as possible
02:34:29 technical information as possible and perhaps product management can compile all up-to-date nhbc information and then he talks about the meeting which we should agree on our next course of action to protect our brand and product
02:34:40 product but also help retail jr's name and integrity
02:34:45 integrity uh just that last point there help retail
02:34:48 retail jr's name and integrity who was the jr there was that you i think it might have been yes right was there a sense that your integrity in selling rs 5000
02:34:59 that your integrity in selling rs 5000 was being undermined i i don't know i don't know what he meant by that
02:35:10 right uh why would being open about the difficulties that you're encountering leave an hb within hbc leave celetex open to legal exploitation
02:35:23 exploitation i can't tell you that this is what mr john's views were who is sir chris nichols i think that's just a flip and see but chris nichols if you look back at the
02:35:34 chris nichols if you look back at the organograms one of the it's the same i see i was wondering whether the accolade meant that it was somebody else but it's a piece of sarcasm is it it is yes
02:35:48 now we know that you resigned from celetex very shortly after this correct yes why was that um i was offered a new position in a
02:36:00 um i was offered a new position in a new company quite an exciting position and i felt that the the lack of progress with investment behind
02:36:08 behind the products like rs 5000 weren't making my role any easier so i decided to take on this this new position
02:36:18 position the new position was it one that you applied for or you were headhunted for i think i was head-hunted for right when you
02:36:25 you resigned did you give your line manager and they small senior to them the reasons for your resignation i did
02:36:36 the reasons for your resignation i did yes
02:36:36 yes what were those i think it was quite clear from my frustration from that email
02:36:40 email text that i'd written that the company didn't seem to be sort of moving forward with further testing to help my and my colleagues roles in
02:36:53 promoting this type of product at the time you left celetex what was your impression of how celetex were going to continue successfully to market rs 5000 without
02:37:04 successfully to market rs 5000 without any further tests
02:37:07 well my personal impression would it would have been quite difficult um they were doing a few desktop studies but um
02:37:15 but um yeah i couldn't see that it was going to be particularly easy with the questions that were being asked and that i was passing up the chain of command
02:37:23 command for them to address thank you very much well mr room i'm sorry it's taken me a longer to get to the end of my questions than i had first planned but i'm grateful to you mr chairman those are my
02:37:34 grateful to you mr chairman those are my questions for the time being there is one reference i fear i need to check uh anyway but it's best if we also give those who are not in this room a little time to gather their questions
02:37:45 time to gather their questions for yes of course well mr room um at this point we have to have a short break because there are other people not in the room who may want to raise matters
02:37:55 matters or suggest further questions to counsel the council may find that he's left some questions out so we're going to have a short break it's 10 minutes enough just a minute um
02:38:06 minute um um it might be a little bit short because i anticipate what will happen if i say 10 minutes is that i'll get an email from this outside the room complaining right it's too sure if it would be a good thing to uh
02:38:17 if it would be a good thing to uh complete mr room before we break for lunch it would oh that's what he would like it would so all right well we'll say 15 then we say 15 and we'll cut our cloth we'll come back at five to one um
02:38:29 we'll come back at five to one um there may well be a few questions but i think we can be reasonably confident of getting you away quite soon after one o'clock thank you so um if you'd like to go to the usher now and please remember not to talk to
02:38:41 now and please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence when they're out of the room
02:38:56 out of the room five to one there mr miller
02:55:23 yes would you ask mr roon to come back in please
02:55:36 all right mr room we'll see if there any more questions for you thank you mr millett yes mr chairman the references i want to check are in fact the same references that others wanted me to go to so i think there's a happy confluence
02:55:48 think there's a happy confluence which won't take long can i ask uh mr room can you please be shown cel401259 first of all this is about the 4th of november 2014
02:55:59 this is about the 4th of november 2014 meeting that you had with debbie berger and stephen howard at the bre and i'll show you these uh e2 emails this is at the bottom of page one your
02:56:10 this is at the bottom of page one your email
02:56:13 email uh date of the fifth of november 2014 to debbie berger subject bre meeting rs 5000 notes and follow-up bba importance hi and you say hi debs here is my
02:56:24 and you say hi debs here is my understanding and follow-up tasks following our meeting with stephen howard
02:56:27 howard at the bre and conversations since and then in bold you say rs 5000 needs further system testing we need advice on standard applications
02:56:38 standard applications i.e cladding tile types jr to review those that have 80 rating and bba certificates you see that i don't know was that was
02:56:50 you see that i don't know was that was the jlu
02:56:51 the jlu it would have been yes i think so as opposed to john roper yes uh and did you actually review those cladding tiles that had 80 rating and bba certificates
02:57:03 that had 80 rating and bba certificates as a result of this discussion i didn't know and if we turn uh over the next page you can see
02:57:15 that you say uh there in the second bullet point down underlined uh further uh quest further testing will offer better base data for clients designing rain screens
02:57:27 data for clients designing rain screens um so was that the point that you needed further testing so that you could have a better base data
02:57:34 data i think this is what the advice had been given to
02:57:37 given to [Music]
02:57:39 [Music] celetex about you know further options for the
02:57:43 for the uh the testing right and then underneath that it says bre stephen howard would like to meet with a facade consultant to better understand the decision-making progress process when designing a rain screen
02:57:54 process when designing a rain screen facade jr to put forward andrew jones total facade solutions as a potential advisor
02:58:00 advisor first question did you actually in the end ever put forward andrew jones as a potential adviser to the bre i i can't recall but i think i may have sent
02:58:10 sent um the details of andrew jones to stephen howard right did you understand why stephen howard
02:58:17 howard needed to understand better the decision-making process when designing a rain screen facade no i don't
02:58:25 don't you don't uh we then go please to cel well actually can we go up the page uh to page one again please and look at the top of page one
02:58:37 uh we can see that debbie berger uh responds to you the next day on the 6th of november 2014 and says hi jonathan attached as a short summary i've just put together in conjunction with the email you sent
02:58:49 conjunction with the email you sent feel free to add or amend once returned i will keep it as a guide for us and also show paul evans i've not really discussed anything with him yet i was waiting for us to get our heads together and come up with the plan
02:59:01 heads together and come up with the plan and if you uh go to
02:59:06 cel401260 please we can see her short summary that she'd attached to that email
02:59:16 and it's entitled rs 5000 summary it's a one-page document market growing uncertainty technical application first bullet point emotional just on
02:59:28 first bullet point emotional just on that what
02:59:29 that what do you think she meant by that when you saw this document i've got no idea i'm afraid uh life safety i think that's clear and then bre bba nhbc approvals sensitive to insulation
02:59:41 nhbc approvals sensitive to insulation being about sales what did you understand that referred to again i'm not sure did it did it express a concern coming from stephen howard
02:59:53 a concern coming from stephen howard of the bre that the bre's approval so far as he was aware was concerned was sensitive to insulation being about sales i can't recall i'm afraid does it tell
03:00:05 i can't recall i'm afraid does it tell us or did you get the sense from the meeting perhaps these bodies these approvals bodies were alive to the fact that manufacturers of insulation were
03:00:17 manufacturers of insulation were about sales i can't recall that no and then in the last bullet point she says or records burnt by k-15 approvals in the past
03:00:28 burnt by k-15 approvals in the past what was that a reference to again i'm not sure
03:00:32 not sure was there any discussion uh at the meeting with the bre about k-15 possibly yes in what context just in relation to celotex i suppose
03:00:45 just in relation to celotex i suppose with regards to the rs 5000 and to maybe further testing that's the only thing i could think did you get the sense that mr howard uh
03:00:57 did you get the sense that mr howard uh was in some sense disenchanted by k-15 getting approvals i can't say
03:01:11 well um thank you very much mr room i have no other questions for you and mr chairman uh i'm come to the end of my my questions mr room it remains only for me to thank you very much for coming to the inquiry
03:01:23 you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful thank you thank you yes well i'd add my own thanks on behalf of the panel mr room i know it's taken quite a long time for you to
03:01:34 time for you to answer all the questions we had for you and i'm sorry we've taken up quite so much of your time but we are very grateful to you for coming to give us your evidence and now you are free to go thank you so much
03:02:00 well that is a convenient point of which i was going to ask you whether it was yes yes
03:02:05 yes yes so we'll stop now and we'll redeem five past two right thank you very much