Jamie Hayes, former Technical Services Team Leader at Celotex, gives evidence about the company's marketing-driven culture, pressure to develop RS5000 for above-18m buildings, and awareness that their combustible insulation should not have been marketed for high-rise use.
00:00:21 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear from another witness formerly employed by celetex yes yes good morning mr chairman
00:00:32 celetex yes yes good morning mr chairman may i please now call mr jamie hayes
00:00:48 can you please read out the witness affirmation text i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very
00:01:00 and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr hayes now do sit down make yourself comfortable all right
00:01:17 right yes just a minute mr german thank you very much mr hayes good morning good morning and i begin by thanking you very much for your coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you
00:01:29 we're extremely grateful to you if you have any difficulty understanding anything i'm asking you then i'm very happy to put the question again or to put the question in a different way so that you can understand me and i can understand you
00:01:40 understand you if you feel you need a break at any point please let us know we can do that we do
00:01:44 we do intend to take scheduled breaks at some point halfway through the morning and halfway through the afternoon and also could i please ask you to keep your voice up so that the transcriber who sits to your
00:01:56 the transcriber who sits to your immediate right can get down everything you're saying and also please if you nod your head or shake your head it doesn't go onto the transcript so please say yes or no as the case may be now you've made two
00:02:07 as the case may be now you've made two statements for the inquiry and i'd like to show you the first of those please it's at cel triple 0010154 of the 11th of march 2019 you can find it on the screen in front
00:02:19 you can find it on the screen in front of you or if you want to look at the hard copy it's on the f in the file on the desk in front of you as well but i will be showing you everything uh in the screen on the screen uh the date is the 11th of march 2019
00:02:33 the date is the 11th of march 2019 is that the first page of that document uh yes it is and although the front page says 12th of march 2019 if you go to page 31 please
00:02:45 you can see that on that page there's a signature
00:02:48 signature over your printed name is that your signature yes it is now the date there is the 27th of august and it says to have been signed by instructed solicitors on the 11th of march 2019.
00:02:59 march 2019. can you just explain how that came about um i believe from memory that we may have been working on the statement
00:03:10 may have been working on the statement that's me and my legal advisors until
00:03:16 i wouldn't say the last minute but until the i believe that there was a deadline for it to be submitted by um and i think it was finished very close to that deadline um and so perhaps they
00:03:30 um and so perhaps they signed it on my behalf right when you when they signed it on your behalf did you instruct them to sign it having seen and approved absolutely yes that's correct and then it was signed by you is
00:03:41 correct and then it was signed by you is this right actually signed by you on the 27th of august 2019. that's correct and can you just explain the delay between the march and the august of that year
00:03:50 year um i can't really explain that um i think that would have been um
00:04:02 my legal team they presented it to me and said
00:04:07 um it seems that you have not signed this document and you need to sign it yourself and so can you please sign this document yourself so that we can provide a proper signed yes thank you
00:04:19 signed yes thank you have you read this witness statement recently yes i have can you confirm that its contents are true yes i can thank you now there's also a second statement cel3010232
00:04:31 second statement cel3010232 and that is the first page of that document you can see mr hayes that it bears a date of the fifth of june 2020 at the top is that your second statement
00:04:45 oh yes it is and if we go to page five in that document you'll see a signature over the date of the fifth of june 2020 is that yours it is yes and have you read this
00:04:53 read this second statement recently yes i have again can you confirm that that the contents are true yes i can have you discussed your evidence that you're going to give today but with anybody before coming here today
00:05:05 anybody before coming here today um i have discussed it in a general way with my
00:05:09 with my legal advisors right but just to be clear no one's prompted you as to what you should say in response to questions i might be asking you no right now i just want to begin with a number of questions about your
00:05:21 of questions about your your background if i may it's right that i you joined celetex in 2004 i think that's good and that was in a temporary administrative role wasn't it yes that's right and before that you hadn't worked in the insulation industry
00:05:33 hadn't worked in the insulation industry at all had you no i hadn't did you have any technical experience at that point no i didn't and i think you've got no tertiary education or technical qualification
00:05:44 technical qualification no that's correct and you were then offered a permanent role as a customer services officer in the sales department is that right that's correct but again that's not a or wasn't a technical question and is it right that from june
00:05:57 question and is it right that from june 2007
00:05:59 2007 you were a technical services officer or a tso
00:06:02 a tso in the technical team of celetex yes that's correct yes
00:06:07 and as such you were i think client or customer facing weren't you yes that's correct and if we look at your
00:06:15 your statement that is your first statement can we please go to that at pages two and three bottom of page two
00:06:22 two at top of page three this is paragraph seven under the heading the technical team you say in or around june 2007
00:06:30 june 2007 an opportunity arose for me to move to the technical team at celetex this was not a team with any expertise in technical product matters but rather a customer support team
00:06:41 but rather a customer support team focused on practical product application and part of the wider marketing arm of the business the technical team sat squarely within the marketing department alongside a specific
00:06:51 specific marketing team and then you go on to say in paragraph eight at the beginning there that no qualifications were required for the position in the technical team why was it called the technical team
00:07:06 because it would answer what would perceive to be technical inquiries regarding our products
00:07:13 products so a typical inquiry would be you know what particular product of yours might i need for um my application which might be a floor
00:07:24 um my application which might be a floor or wall
00:07:24 or wall or a roof and we would also do value calculations which were thermal calculations and i think that they were perceived to be technical questions
00:07:36 be technical questions um as opposed to for example in my previous role we would field inquiries from from our purchasing customers and their types of
00:07:47 purchasing customers and their types of questions would be how much does it cost can i have a delivery and so there was a clear distinction i guess between those two types of inquiries that were coming into the business yes i see um if the
00:08:00 yes i see um if the team's role wasn't technical in the sense of research and development or complex chemistry is it right that some of the matters on which you were advising customers in
00:08:11 on which you were advising customers in that team
00:08:12 that team called for a degree at least of technical understanding yes i think that's fair yes
00:08:19 now you say as i've shown you in paragraph seven on the page in front of you that the technical team sat squarely within the marketing department does that mean that the development of
00:08:31 does that mean that the development of new products was also overseen by the marketing team
00:08:37 yes it does and is it fair to say that celetex's
00:08:42 celetex's business model was really driven by the marketing team yes that's correct was the technical team ever
00:08:49 team ever able in your experience to override the marketing department's marketing decisions
00:08:55 decisions on technical grounds no so would you say that the technical team was
00:09:02 was really an adjunct to celetex's marketing capabilities yes i would say that and i think that the
00:09:10 the direct line of reporting um i think always ended with the marketing director
00:09:18 director as opposed to having a separate technical director for example yes now you were promoted to technical services team leader weren't you i was remember that i believe it was
00:09:30 i was remember that i believe it was january 2015 15. and what did that involve that new role so the business had been uh slightly restructured at that time
00:09:41 restructured at that time so there had never been a technical services team leader before it was a created role and so i took on um
00:09:51 um responsibility for certain day-to-day tasks in terms of organizing that team so
00:09:58 so to give a couple of examples the the technical team which is quite a small team would split it each individual person would split their time between
00:10:07 between dealing with emails possibly in the morning and then covering the telephones in the afternoon um so there was a rotor and i would um create that rotor
00:10:19 um create that rotor to start with that was pretty much the limit of my responsibilities but over my
00:10:27 over my time as a technical service team leader i took on
00:10:30 i took on more responsibility in terms of administration of personnel so i would um with my manager assist with carrying out
00:10:38 out um appraisals for people um and i also later on
00:10:43 later on was given responsibility for signing off people's holiday requests and also um conducting a return to work interviews when somebody had a day off and who was your
00:10:55 somebody had a day off and who was your manager who was your line manager at that time or from january 2015 when you were promoted to technical services team leader it was louise garlic louise garlic okay
00:11:06 it was louise garlic louise garlic okay and before that time who was your manager who was your uh management line uh my manager rob warren
00:11:12 warren i see um and as at the period 2012 to 2000 and
00:11:18 2000 and the end of 2014 who was your line manager was that rob warren throughout yes rob warren remained my line manager um until i became technical services team leader
00:11:30 i became technical services team leader because i think that the same restructuring that changed rob's role slightly was the same restructuring and at the same time i was made technical services and how did your role relate to debbie
00:11:41 and how did your role relate to debbie berger's role once she'd taken over the role of product manager on the 1st of october 2014 so we moved into completely different reporting
00:11:52 reporting streams so i would report to louise garlick
00:11:55 garlick louise garlic reported to craig chambers who was the ceo or managing director i understand that debbie reported to paul evans who
00:12:07 paul evans who reported directly to craig chambers so you were essentially in parallel with debbie but with debbie berger
00:12:15 berger um yes we worked in different departments but i would say that we were
00:12:22 kind of peers i guess yeah okay um and i think you continued in that role the role of technical services team leader until you left celetex that's correct
00:12:33 correct now just looking at your training you say that no qualifications were required for
00:12:39 for your role in fact any of your roles is that right that's correct and given your work history before you started celetex you wouldn't have acquired any technical expertise before that would you no
00:12:50 expertise before that would you no and i think it must be right that you received no formal training for your position when you started that's correct and given that you were being asked to offer practical advice on matters such
00:13:01 offer practical advice on matters such as product application did you have any concerns about your ability to fulfill your job description without any training yes i did it first i think i mentioned in my
00:13:12 first i think i mentioned in my statement that i felt quite overwhelmed by the position when i first joined
00:13:19 i was quite lucky because there was a lady that i worked with who was borjou um she kind of took me under her wing a little bit and she would um help me and we would have breakout
00:13:32 um help me and we would have breakout sessions
00:13:33 sessions so if i had a question and i wasn't sure how to answer it or if i'd heard terminology that i didn't understand we might spend an informal sort of 15 minutes at her desk and she would run me
00:13:44 minutes at her desk and she would run me through some things let's see and in what years do you think that happened um i actually don't think that i started to have a real confidence in my
00:13:55 started to have a real confidence in my role probably for about 18 months so 2006 yes i see uh looking at paragraph nine which should still be on the page in front of you
00:14:05 you uh if you go down a little bit on that page in your statement um you you say uh that uh in the middle of the paragraph
00:14:17 uh in the middle of the paragraph you you say i did undergo some form informal training in the processes and procedures needed for my new role where i would be taken through how to answer certain queries using technical data help sheets and handy guides
00:14:28 and handy guides produced by celetex who was it who produced those guides
00:14:35 that literature existed in the business before i joined the technical team and and so i don't know who who wrote them but
00:14:43 them but i got the impression that some were older than others so they might have been some which were dated
00:14:50 dated quite a long time ago they might be they've been several years before they'd been updated and then others which were more recent um i know that there was a gentleman
00:15:01 um i know that there was a gentleman called
00:15:02 called peter gibson who was um technical manager i think and he may well have
00:15:09 well have had a part to play but i'm sure that the presentation of them and formatting them putting them together would have also been done by the marketing team now you say five lines down within the sentence i've been
00:15:20 lines down within the sentence i've been looking at that you were taken through how to answer certain queries were those queries uh in your experience uh about the suitability for a product on a an external wall construction above
00:15:33 on a an external wall construction above 18 meters
00:15:35 18 meters no they weren't um in fact the vast majority of um inquiries that celetex received i think throughout the time that i was there was to do with houses so a house that
00:15:48 was to do with houses so a house that you know a semi-detached house a detached house a terrorist house and very few of our inquiries although some of them were to do with larger types of buildings where those
00:15:59 larger types of buildings where those types of construction like range screen would be more common and were those queries from time to time about fire safety of the products you were selling celotex was selling
00:16:10 selling celotex was selling um there would be questions about fire safety but they would be very basic such as is your product class one
00:16:18 one for example and to answer that would be simply to refer somebody to a product data sheet where the properties of the board were listed and it would confirm the product
00:16:29 listed and it would confirm the product to be
00:16:29 to be class one yes i see now you say in paragraph nine as i've just shown you that you relied on product technical data sheets and i think you refer there to an example of a data sheet
00:16:40 sheet and you exhibit it let's go to that it's cel408506
00:16:48 please and is this a is this the kind of data sheet that you would use when answering customers queries
00:17:00 use when answering customers queries in general i have to say that i have had a chance to look through my statement and its exhibits um and i don't think that this is a very good example right of a data sheet um and
00:17:11 of a data sheet um and the thought is entirely mine but i think that when i was carefully reading my statement prior to signing it which i would have done um i don't think that i checked
00:17:23 um i don't think that i checked every exhibit and actually i think that a much better example could have been given of a data sheet than this one here right all right well then let's not let's not press that point too much
00:17:34 let's not press that point too much let's move on to something which you would have seen i think cel 50409
00:17:44 this is the rs 5000 data sheet produced by celetex uh and this is issue 1 2000 of august 2014
00:17:56 uh is this a sort of data sheet that you would have been familiar with yes and is your evidence in effect that you had no technical knowledge but were wholly reliant on others within celetex
00:18:09 wholly reliant on others within celetex for the accuracy of the technical data contained in documents such as these
00:18:16 that's correct i think what i would say is that
00:18:22 as my knowledge and experience grew um sometimes the technical team were asked to
00:18:28 to assist in preparations of these documents
00:18:31 documents mostly to do with thermal performance so an example would be most of our product literature would contain u-value tables which tells you if you have a certain
00:18:42 which tells you if you have a certain construction and you use a certain thickness of insulation this will give you a u-value of
00:18:47 of x and so the technical team would assist with producing those tables for example because they would be based upon calculations that we would do and then and that table for example would be slotted into
00:18:58 slotted into the document by um the marketing team who are
00:19:02 who are preparing it can we look at uh mr warren's witness statement cel 301043 please i'd like to go to page four in that document and look with you at paragraph 16
00:19:15 and look with you at paragraph 16 page four paragraph 16 at the bottom of the page there mr warren says uh jamie hayes was one of the more experienced members of the ctc team
00:19:25 team he was assigned responsibility for providing training to the team and in particular to new starters is that correct that is correct and i i believe that i do reference that also
00:19:37 i believe that i do reference that also in my own first statement and then he goes on to say uh about four lines down i do not remember devising the remainder of the training and did not deliver it but my assumption based on conversations with mr hayes and from
00:19:48 on conversations with mr hayes and from looking at an overview describing the topics to be covered was that it was a fairly comprehensive training program delivered in modules and in person to the members of the team which ranged from the basics of what is insulation
00:20:01 from the basics of what is insulation right through to understanding all you need to know in the technical process to be able to respond to customer queries is that accurate it became accurate um i was given
00:20:13 it became accurate um i was given responsibility for training new members of the
00:20:16 of the the team in the technical team and um i did for my own benefit put together um a spreadsheet which would show
00:20:27 um a spreadsheet which would show the different topics that you would cover and this would mostly be for example um i'd have one topic and it would be cavity walls
00:20:38 cavity walls and so um we would do that on the morning
00:20:41 morning and in in the training of that morning i would go through and i would say this is a cavity wall this is very broadly how a cavity board is built up um this is how our product would be used
00:20:52 um this is how our product would be used in that cavity wall this is our data sheet here is how you would perform a u-value calculation for that cavity so you accept what mr warren says there and when you say it became accurate
00:21:03 when you say it became accurate was it as he says it was by 2012
00:21:08 yes that is correct and to deliver the training that mr warren describes in his statement there you would have had to have had had to have had some kind of technical understanding wouldn't you of the matters contained in the training
00:21:20 of the matters contained in the training yes that's correct
00:21:23 were you yourself given any training as to those technical matters or were those matters simply matters that you as it were picked up on the job it was entirely picked up on the job
00:21:34 it was entirely picked up on the job right
00:21:35 right and indeed you say paragraph 12 of your statement if we go to that please page four that you picked up knowledge regarding practical application of products over time that's your first sentence in that
00:21:46 time that's your first sentence in that paragraph so that would be correct wouldn't it look at what we're looking at so far
00:21:49 at so far that's correct and you also go on to say there
00:21:52 there a little bit lower down the paragraph at no point during my employment at celetex did anyone ever check or test my knowledge of the product offering
00:22:04 there were no specified checks that the information we were providing to customers was correct nor were there any checks that the industry knowledge i was obtaining was accurate
00:22:13 accurate and you've confirmed the truth of that statement earlier in your evidence was that the case throughout your time at celetex yes it was the case now let's go to cel
00:22:28 yes it was the case now let's go to cel 408515 please
00:22:33 this is an internal celetex draft document
00:22:37 document and the reason i say that is that if you look at the top of the page under the word technical briefing the first bullet point says draft was it a draft or was it a final document do you think
00:22:51 um so i wrote this document and um it was never a formal celetex document it was produced by me to assist me with training people um
00:23:04 to assist me with training people um and so i would have put the word draft and i think the reason i put the word draft is because it was never a formal document it was a document i used
00:23:14 used yes yes thank you and you can see that it says introduction to fire regulations and standards incorporates buildings above 18 meters requirements of compliance with fire regulations technical briefing that's correct and all that is a draft
00:23:26 that's correct and all that is a draft you used it i think is what you're saying yes yes and you and you drafted it and if we go to the bottom of the page uh there's the logo as we can see
00:23:37 uh there's the logo as we can see we can't quite see it on the screen you could just about see it it says ctc that's the celetex technical center i think isn't it that's correct yeah and you sat in the celetex technical center
00:23:49 celetex technical center who else did in 2012 2013 and 2014.
00:23:57 um so some people came and went so i would do the best well sorry i should perhaps narrow it down a bit who were the main the main players throughout that period
00:24:10 the main players throughout that period in that
00:24:11 in that team so um there was a gentleman called sean whelan um there was myself um there was debbie berger there was a
00:24:23 there was debbie berger there was a gentleman called tom elwell yes um i believe there was a gentleman called richard gifford although i'm not 100 sure when richard joined
00:24:35 sure when richard joined um and there was a gentleman called jeremy suttle yes and we've seen his name
00:24:41 name uh in in later documents if we go to page two in this document you can see in the header that it's marked on the top left jh and that i think tells us that you drafted it that's correct and this is version two
00:24:53 that's correct and this is version two draft 26th of october 2010 um and
00:25:00 um and just looking at it briefly we'll we'll consider the content together in a moment but just looking at it very briefly staying on this page these are the contents of the presentation and you can see that it
00:25:11 presentation and you can see that it deals with standards for fire resistance for insulation national standards european standards and scotty standards and then requirements for buildings above 18 meters in height external walls
00:25:22 above 18 meters in height external walls at page seven and if you go to page eight
00:25:30 you can see there's a reference about a quarter of the way down to technical services information bulletin 26 and there are a number of parts of that bulletin 26 it does that tell us that
00:25:42 bulletin 26 it does that tell us that there were historically a larger number a large number of bulletins
00:25:48 namely 25 produced by this department
00:25:54 so technical services information bulletin 26 is a document which i inherited so when i
00:26:00 i took over when i was went into the technical services team i took over the desk of somebody who had left and i believe that name that person was called philip eden
00:26:13 that person was called philip eden and i inherited a black folder and in that folder were some technical services information bulletins
00:26:19 bulletins including number 26
00:26:23 and i think there were some other ones as well although i don't think that the set was
00:26:28 set was complete necessarily um but i don't believe that any of those bulletins had been produced by the ctc if you like which is the
00:26:39 the ctc if you like which is the technical department where i worked i believe that they had all been produced by um senior people within the business and actually
00:26:48 actually i'm sure i exhibit this document and it will say who wrote it but i believe it was peter
00:26:52 was peter gibson who was but the technical manager for
00:26:56 for celetex rather than somebody who sat within the technical team i see and if we look a little bit lower down underneath that heading uh it's it refers to the building regulations and specifically section b4 of approved
00:27:08 and specifically section b4 of approved document b and the reference there to the requirement of limited combustibility you can see that in the second paragraph yes and in the third paragraph under the heading technical services information
00:27:19 heading technical services information bulletin you can see it says the position in scotland as well and in both paragraphs it says uh that uh the requirement is for the use of a
00:27:30 the requirement is for the use of a non-combustible insulation product such as mineral wool you see that yes so was it clear to you
00:27:41 so was it clear to you and to those that you were training so far as you were aware that one of the routes to compliance with approved document b for insulation
00:27:52 for insulation on buildings above 18 meters was to ensure that the combat the material was non-combustible yes i would have understood that um just
00:28:03 yes i would have understood that um just to clarify that i think that the understanding in the the team was um we had this document and and that document i believe is a bigger problem we had technical
00:28:14 a bigger problem we had technical services information bulletin 26 and i think that to produce this section of this document i've effectively cut and pasted it in right but it's not something that we would
00:28:26 something that we would think about when we did our jobs because um
00:28:30 um when people came to us and they did and said do you have a product which is suitable for a building above 18 meters or do you have a alternative product to call them k15 for using a tool building
00:28:42 call them k15 for using a tool building the answer was always no we don't sorry and then they would move on so yes i had an awareness of this and had read and understood that document but it was was not something that we
00:28:54 but it was was not something that we were required to understand the technicality of on a on a day-to-day basis so the answer is when you were asked for a material for use above 18 meters the answer was no and you didn't really need to know
00:29:07 no and you didn't really need to know why no but you knew it was no yes okay then we look underneath that and it says alternative compliance method
00:29:13 method an alternative method of compliance with these regulations is to meet the performance criteria given in br 135 fire performance of external thermal insulation for walls of multi-story buildings 2003 edition using data from full-scale fire testing
00:29:25 using data from full-scale fire testing to bs84141 or bs84142 this specifies limits for both external and internal fire spread defined by a maximum temperature rise in given time period br 135 is the basis
00:29:38 in given time period br 135 is the basis on which kingspan are currently able to obtain specifications for cool therm despite the fact that the product is a combustible we believe that the tested systems incorporate fire barriers to limit the
00:29:49 incorporate fire barriers to limit the spread of fire through the air cavity behind the rain screen celatex boards have and this is capitalized not been tested to this standard but fr and then it's 4 000
00:30:00 then it's 4 000 but corrected to 5000 could potentially meet the standard if it were to be tested at this point in time we have decided not to pursue this line summary sound effects boards can not
00:30:13 summary sound effects boards can not bold
00:30:13 bold be used anywhere in anywhere in any external wall constructions if the building is above 18 meters in height and then this is in italics this applies to all areas of walls even though
00:30:24 to all areas of walls even though even those below 18 meters there are different number of ways of emphasizing but it's crystal clear from that isn't it that at this point october 2010
00:30:35 2010 uh the alternative method of compliance set out in this document was also not available to celetex that's correct yes
00:30:50 that's correct yes and if you uh go down a little bit further into the next page please
00:31:03 uh you can see there this is a heading of timed fire resistances uh a little bit lower down that page three quarters of the way down the page
00:31:14 three quarters of the way down the page there's quite a lot of technical text and i'm summarizing it but was that was about uh other tests under bs476 wasn't it yes this was not related to
00:31:26 not related to the above 18 meter test no and were you aware at this time of something called national class naught
00:31:38 something called national class naught yes i was and you were aware that this was entirely distinct from the requirements for buildings above 18 meters
00:31:45 meters as they existed at that date yes i was and you were aware that class naught was something very different from the concept of non-combustible or limited combustibility
00:31:57 limited combustibility i knew that they were different tests and that they weren't necessarily interchangeable yes now can we go to cel408500
00:32:12 this is a copy of a training pack that you
00:32:16 you uh i think delivered the same document again and if we go to page 11
00:32:25 this is a copy that debbie berger has disclosed and if you go to page 11
00:32:34 this is version draft 1 25th of october 2010
00:32:39 2010 there's a quiz and the training module fast standards and regulations incorporating buildings greater than 18 meters in height and then there's a note the quiz is designed to demonstrate comprehension of the training session
00:32:50 comprehension of the training session and not the ability to memorize information etc and then if you go to page 14 these are the questions and they're questions about why celetex products can't be used above 18 meters
00:33:03 products can't be used above 18 meters and what test meant that kingspan could market k15 for use above 18 meters and i've summarized those questions there but you can see what they are
00:33:14 what they are am i right in my summary
00:33:20 yes that's correct and we can see the answers at slide nine and if you go to slide 9 uh page 9 of this document here are manuscript answers to the quiz
00:33:34 here are manuscript answers to the quiz and there's a date at the top 5th of november 2010 was this an actual training session do you think
00:33:42 you think yes so um i believe that i had also given some training in a in a much much sort of reduced form to aries sales
00:33:53 sort of reduced form to aries sales managers who came into the business and this is something i had been asked to do by
00:33:59 to do by chris king and he asked me in fact i believe to do some simple quizzes with the area sales managers to check
00:34:10 with the area sales managers to check their understanding of what they had seen
00:34:14 seen i don't think that it was necessary for the ctc
00:34:18 the ctc members to underdo the undertake the quiz
00:34:21 quiz um i think that debbie has done it um probably for a bit of fun because i was i would have trained debbie
00:34:31 debbie in terms of the ctc and so she's also taken the
00:34:35 taken the she's also taken the quiz but it wasn't i don't believe something that you had to do or standard that you had to make i think we've done it for a bit of fun yes and the page 10 if we go to page 10
00:34:46 go to page 10 we can see the answers to the four questions which represented the slide i showed you before and particularly question 14. the answer to the
00:34:54 to the question 14 is that the fire test allowing kingspan to use their phenolic product is a in 18 meter and taller buildings is bs eight four one four part one or bs8414 part two so that was the answer
00:35:08 part two so that was the answer um did you know at the time or did you think at the time that kingspan had actually passed both of those two parts of bsa414
00:35:21 of those two parts of bsa414 no i don't believe that i did which did you think they'd actually passed i don't think at this time and i think this is
00:35:29 this is dated 2010 i would have given that um any thought so the the reason there's a reference to both of those is probably from the technical bulletin where it references both of those tests as being
00:35:42 something that you could do but i don't think at that time i would have looked at um whether kingspan had done
00:35:50 done one test or another test and if we just go back a page to page nine just finally on this document one of the answers to the quiz questions related to class naught and if you go to the questions
00:36:01 the questions or answers uh uh seven and eight you can see she's written down surface spread of flame bs at 476 part seven and then under
00:36:12 bs at 476 part seven and then under question or answer eight five standard class naught bs four seven six parts seven and six surface spread of flame and then propagate
00:36:20 propagate um i'm assuming that you and she and those you were teaching uh understood at least that much the class naught had these two parts to it um i think from memory that was explicit
00:36:33 um i think from memory that was explicit on the set of text literature so if you looked at a product data sheet for fr4000 for example i think there would be a section and it would say fire performance and it would say bs 476
00:36:44 fire performance and it would say bs 476 part 6 and it would say bs 476 part 7. so sorry to go on but yes the the short answer is there was an understanding that class zero was formed of those two tests yes yes and
00:36:56 formed of those two tests yes yes and we'll come back we'll come back to this question
00:36:58 question very shortly again when looking at later the later technical bulletin before i do that can i just take a sideways visit and ask you some questions about the corporate culture within celetex you've already agreed
00:37:09 within celetex you've already agreed with me i think that celetex was largely marketing led at the time you were there yes um if we go back to your statement you
00:37:17 you see on page six at paragraph 16 that if you look at that at the top of the page under the heading sangoba you uh refer there to the acquisition of
00:37:29 refer there to the acquisition of sangoba in 2012 of celetex by sangaba in 2012 and you say this acquisition changed some of the processes within celetex
00:37:40 some of the processes within celetex including changes to health and safety on production line environmental facilities then in the last sentence you say in my experience the acquisition also brought about a change in culture particularly in the sense that there
00:37:51 particularly in the sense that there appeared to be increased financial pressure to develop new products applied to celetex from sangoban
00:37:58 and then you go on to say even before this acquisition celetex was largely marketing led given that those individuals at the top of the business
00:38:07 business had mainly originated from the marketing department celetex used to be owned by private equity group aac capital partners
00:38:14 partners and so the drive for profit making and increasing the company's share price had been systemic in the celetex culture for some time however it seemed as though this culture became heightened once sangaba became
00:38:25 became heightened once sangaba became involved
00:38:29 now you when you say and celetex used to be owned by private equity group aac capital partners etc did you get the sense at that time
00:38:40 etc did you get the sense at that time and that's up up to 2012 when the acquisition took place that the drive for profit was was also a drive for revenues
00:38:51 yes i don't think it was a secret from anybody in the business at any level
00:38:58 level that um
00:39:02 the intention was that the company under aac um
00:39:10 aac um that the the goal of the management at that time was to make the business as profitable as possible in terms of how it would look on a balance sheet and so to increase its value for
00:39:22 and so to increase its value for somebody who's to buy afterwards yes and then you go on to say after the reference to conversations you've had that sangoban had asked for a budget for increasing profits and that at least 15
00:39:34 profits and that at least 15 of this increase would need to be attributed to new products i remember thinking we were not allowed to simply sell more of our existing products to increase profits for me this meant that there was a drive for innovation and a sense of pressure
00:39:45 for innovation and a sense of pressure to increase profits at celatex uh is it your recollection that that celtics became even more marketing driven following the acquisition of saint-gobain
00:39:56 acquisition of saint-gobain or by sangoban in 2012. yes i think that's fair and what made you feel that there was an increased pressure to develop new products
00:40:06 but primarily this conversation i believe and as it says there they were talking about um and i think i also talked
00:40:17 also talked a bit later about um hearing a conversation regarding the budget of celetex and how it would have to be presented
00:40:24 presented to sangaban in paris and it was referenced that they had to increase profits
00:40:29 profits and also that certain percentage of that profit must come from new products yes and how did that pressure manifest itself on you personally at the time
00:40:42 i don't think that
00:40:45 in my role there was a personal pressure on
00:40:48 on me as an individual to do my role differently and so it would have been the effect i saw on on others for example as part of the above 18
00:40:59 for example as part of the above 18 meter
00:40:59 meter project so what did you observe of the effect of this requirement from on high on what others in the business we're doing around you
00:41:11 doing around you so to give an example um i know we'll come on to this but after the the first 18 meter test failed um a second test
00:41:22 18 meter test failed um a second test was arranged um incredibly quickly and although it didn't seem that strange to me at the time i look back on that now and think
00:41:34 back on that now and think it's almost unbelievable that i think only a few months passed between the failure of a major test and how quickly a second test was arranged
00:41:45 a second test was arranged authorized paid for and not to mention the fact that there would you would have to actually arrange to to build a rig which is to say have all the materials have someone construct it
00:41:58 the materials have someone construct it and so how quickly they turned around between one to two i think illustrates quite well um that they were not
00:42:10 quite well um that they were not prepared to to wait um any longer than was humanly possible to to progress that that project and i guess the ultimate goal of that project was to have a product which could be sold to
00:42:22 a product which could be sold to increase profits right so in a nutshell are you saying that the
00:42:29 that the the may 2014 second test of rs 5000 which took place was really a manifestation in its clearest form of the culture which you described at paragraph 16 and
00:42:41 which you described at paragraph 16 and 17 of your statement yes
00:42:48 now i'm going to ask you some questions next about your understanding of celetex products in general can we start with max
00:42:55 with max 50216 please this is the data sheet for celatex fr5000
00:43:01 fr5000 issue number two january 2012 and if you look at the top right hand corner of the document you can see that now fr 5000 uh
00:43:12 document you can see that now fr 5000 uh is was a pir board wasn't it yes and did you understand that that meant that it was not therefore a product of limited combustibility yes i did and therefore it could not be
00:43:23 yes i did and therefore it could not be used on buildings above 18 meters yes and we can see from the data sheet in two places the first paragraph and the fourth bullet point that it's described as
00:43:34 bullet point that it's described as having class naught fire performance and in that fourth bullet point it says has class naught fire performance throughout the entire product in accordance with bs476 what did you understand the significance
00:43:46 what did you understand the significance of fr
00:43:47 of fr 5000 having class naught to be i understood that meant it had had received
00:43:59 received a pass in two separate bs 476 fire tests 476 part 6 and 476 part
00:44:07 part 7. yes so you understood that the the result of success in those two tests was that you got a class normal classification for this product yes what was the significance to celetex
00:44:19 yes what was the significance to celetex in marketing the product of that product having a class naught classification
00:44:26 i believe that celetex introduced the fr-4000 range which was the first time that it ever had um a class zero product and
00:44:38 um a class zero product and that the driver for that was that
00:44:42 celetex had pir products and it competed against lots of other pir products in the market but that their main competitor if you
00:44:53 but that their main competitor if you like was
00:44:53 like was kingspan and kingspan's products were made of
00:44:57 made of phenolic foam and kingspan's products were seen to be technically superior to all pir products because they had
00:45:08 to all pir products because they had a better thermal performance and they also had a better fire performance so i believe that what the business wanted to do when it introduced the 4000 range was to step up its game and to one
00:45:21 step up its game and to one have a product which was or could be marketed as being more equivalent to kingspan in terms of its technical properties but also differentiate itself
00:45:33 differentiate itself from other pir and i think that there were
00:45:37 were three key ways that they wanted to do that
00:45:40 that one was to increase its or improve its lambda value so that it would be i think at that time it would have gone from 0.023 to 0.02 which would have been better
00:45:51 to 0.02 which would have been better than
00:45:52 than all of its other competitors in pir that it would have a class 0 fire performance which would match that of kingspan's products and that it would also have
00:46:04 also have an improved thermal performance of its foil faces um and i think that's why they introduced it and it was it was supposed to be a kind of a premium pir
00:46:15 to be a kind of a premium pir i think right
00:46:18 leaving aside the benefit of having class naught as a way of keeping up with or
00:46:26 or competing with kingspan my question was a slightly different one sorry what would class naught signify to a buyer
00:46:38 what would it allow the buyer to do which without class naught it couldn't nothing i don't believe right um i i i'm not aware of any application that celestex
00:46:49 celestex was offering products into where class zero
00:46:53 zero or in fact fire performance in general had any relevancy so i believe that the that giving the product class zero was
00:47:02 zero was solely a marketing proposition right okay
00:47:08 and maybe you can't help me but what did if you look at the fourth bullet point down what did the the statement class naught fire performance throughout the entire
00:47:20 performance throughout the entire product
00:47:21 product in accordance with bs476 signify um i can remember a conversation at celetex
00:47:29 celetex and um i know i think that lizzie seeton was in the room and perhaps somebody else
00:47:35 else i'm sure there would have been someone else and there was i'm sure section in kingspan's literature where it said class zero um
00:47:47 class zero um for the core only or court only or or class zero for the for the foam core and i think that there was an impression that that was not the correct way that you were supposed to test it
00:47:59 you were supposed to test it and that the reason that they had qualified that is because actually what you were supposed to do is test the product as you bring it to market so if you have a board which is comprised of
00:48:10 of a foam core and it has a foil face at the top and the floor face at the bottom that forms a complete product as you're selling it and so therefore you should take that complete product including all of its
00:48:21 complete product including all of its elements and test it like that um and so i think that and i might be wrong but i think that's when celetex tested
00:48:32 think that's when celetex tested class zero they tested it as it was which is to say with the four faces intact and so you put that in and you receive your result so i i thought it was supposed to be a kind
00:48:44 i thought it was supposed to be a kind of a poke in the eye right to to kingspan say we've tested class zero properly i see i mean technically speaking does the cons did the concept of class naught
00:48:55 the cons did the concept of class naught throughout the entire product actually have any real meaning
00:49:04 no i don't i don't i i mean i can only assume that if you tested something to class zero you would submit your samples to the test body they would do whatever tests were correct
00:49:15 whatever tests were correct to do and so actually to say it's throughout the product is again it's just a marketing right proposition i think right okay uh either way you were
00:49:27 right okay uh either way you were i think aware as you've told us that even though fr 5000 had class naught whatever throughout the entire product might or might not mean you knew that it couldn't be used in buildings higher than 18 meters yes that's right and you were therefore
00:49:40 yes that's right and you were therefore aware that there were requirements which products to um which could be used above 80 meters had to meet yes yes uh now paragraph 25 you refer to of your statement you refer to
00:49:52 refer to of your statement you refer to the development of fr 5000 and a product called fr 4000 um just have 25 up on the screen i'm not going to read it all out to you but that's where you deal
00:50:03 out to you but that's where you deal with this and you say um that the thermal conductivity of this product
00:50:09 was improved which then resulted in fr 5000.
00:50:13 5000. um so was fr4000 effectively a predecessor to fr 5000 yes so my understanding was that there was no difference at all in that product from 4000 to 5000 apart from the fact
00:50:26 from 4000 to 5000 apart from the fact that it went from a lambda value of 0.022 to a lambda value of 0.021 so it hadn't changed in respect of its fire performance for example
00:50:37 fire performance for example right now at paragraph 28 of your statement of page nine if we can just um flip over to that please you say and again i'll summarize um that rs 5000 was not a new product but
00:50:50 that rs 5000 was not a new product but was a rebranding of fr 5000 to be used above 18 meters
00:50:58 yes that's correct and therefore there were no changes to the chemical composition that you knew about as between fr 5000 and rs 5000 that's correct the only difference i
00:51:09 that's correct the only difference i think is that unlike fr 5000 um our s5000 had passed or purportedly passed uh a bsa414 test
00:51:20 test that's correct i mean to put it another way around actually this same insulation board which you'd called fr 5000 has been subjected to that test and then renamed rs 5000 so as to be able to get into the above
00:51:31 so as to be able to get into the above 18 meter market that's correct now i want to ask you some questions about your involvement in the 80 meter project um in your statement i don't
00:51:43 project um in your statement i don't think we need to see it it's paragraph 26 at page 9. you say that jonathan roper was given the task of the development of a product that could be used above 18 meters
00:51:56 if you want to look at it we can certainly do that page 9 paragraph 26 let's have that on the screen you say jr was a product manager within
00:52:07 you say jr was a product manager within the marketing team in late 2012 early 2013
00:52:10 2013 he was tasked with the development of a product that could be sold in the above 80 meter market rs 5000 as well as a portfolio of other products
00:52:19 products and the management of how these products would be presented to the market
00:52:24 yes do you remember who gave him that task
00:52:31 i believe he would have been set that task by his manager who was paul evans and paragraph 22 if you go um well actually you can see it here you
00:52:42 well actually you can see it here you say jr was young at the time and had only been employed by celetex for around two years he had joined straight from university before he was tasked with this role and therefore had limited experience
00:52:57 did you did it occur to you to ask the question of anybody why it was that somebody so young and so inexperienced was being given
00:53:06 given this task given the the importance of the task
00:53:11 the task no i didn't did it occur to you did it cross your own mind did you ask yourself i wonder why john ropers got that job
00:53:21 i think he was the only person who could have been given that job because
00:53:27 development of products was always managed by um the marketing team and by product managers and i think i understand that he was
00:53:38 understand that he was the only one at that time you mean the only one available the only one completely i think i i might be wrong uh i apologize if i am but it may have
00:53:49 uh i apologize if i am but it may have been that though he actually comprised the entirety of product managers at cell attacks
00:53:59 oh no question i understand that you say uh i beg your pardon yeah so comprise the entirety of product managers do you mean he was there he was the only he was the only person who bought the job title product manager i follow
00:54:10 follow sorry which i think he got as soon as he joined is that right
00:54:16 no i think that john was promoted to be a product manager i think he when he joined i think i said that he had a main administrative role and i believe that was
00:54:27 was about taking sales data that he was given and putting it into a spreadsheet for use by his manager yes in fact i think he was assistant product manager at first he had that title but
00:54:38 had that title but but uh turning to mr evans can i just show you paragraph 22 of your statement well we've got it on the screen we've got that document at least on the screen of page uh eight at the bottom of page seven on
00:54:50 uh eight at the bottom of page seven on the top of page eight at page seven paragraph 22 um you say that uh in the third line pe that's paul
00:55:01 that uh in the third line pe that's paul evans was young when he joined celetex and worked under ck that's chris king ck had a certain way of working that i would describe as aggressive and he had a reputation for taking shortcuts
00:55:13 shortcuts pe had no construction experience and as far as i was aware he picked up everything he knew from ck when you say that there do you mean that he picked up everything he knew about celetex
00:55:23 celetex and the insulation business from chris king
00:55:28 yes i would are you implying as well that he shared the traits that you have described that mr king had
00:55:39 that you have described that mr king had i don't think he shared the personality traits of
00:55:42 traits of of chris king but i think in terms of how he would have approached his work in terms of managing his department and um
00:55:53 and um setting its goals undertaking his tasks i think he would have have got that from chris king but they were they were different people in terms of their
00:56:01 of their personality in the way in which mr evans approached his work would you describe him as
00:56:08 him as aggressive and no i'm sorry i i don't mean it
00:56:12 mean it uh as a as aggressive um so no i don't mean his aggressive personality i don't think he got that from chris king and he
00:56:24 he got that from chris king and he wasn't
00:56:25 wasn't no leave aside his personality but his style of management was that aggressive punchy no i don't i don't think so um
00:56:38 i'm just trying to explain myself clearly
00:56:43 clearly i guess in the way that projects were run at celetex to bring new products to market i think he would have taken that from chris king as in things should be done quickly
00:56:57 things should be done quickly um the most important things are having a product which is saleable to the market for example which i think were things that he would have got from chris
00:57:05 chris king i don't think in terms of his personal
00:57:08 personal style which is to be uh aggressive i don't think he took that from chris king no i understand
00:57:17 and you go on to say mr evans in the last sentence there effectively he was promoted to marketing director without a lot of experience and in practice was able to make decisions within celetex without any real checks
00:57:28 within celetex without any real checks or balances was that a concern to you at the time no it wasn't
00:57:39 and if we go then to paragraph 26 again at page nine
00:57:49 we come back to where we were uh before you um
00:57:53 you um say there
00:57:57 after the reference to jr in the last sentence jr reported directly to the head of marketing pe who in turn reported to cc that's craig chambers it was therefore
00:58:08 that's craig chambers it was therefore my understanding that paul evans and chris
00:58:11 chris and craig chambers oversaw or agreed to all final decisions that were made with respect to rs 5000. what was that understanding based on
00:58:21 i think that understanding is based upon the fact that um i helped john with certain tasks on the 18-meter project and i was involved with and
00:58:33 project and i was involved with and witnessed conversations between all of those individuals with regards to the 18-meter project and from the things that i i saw and the recollections that i have i
00:58:45 and the recollections that i have i don't think that john would have had any autonomous decision making um with respect to that project and that he would have had to run everything past
00:58:56 run everything past paul i know that craig was closely following that project which was again was a view that i formed from
00:59:06 from uh conversations i witnessed and also from you know my conversations with with john
00:59:13 john and my understanding was that john wouldn't have been given any decision-making power um and he would not have been able to autonomously make any decision with any important decision i would say
00:59:25 with any important decision i would say with regards to uh rs-5000 or the project to develop it yes now thank you now sticking on this page if you look a little bit lower down
00:59:37 page if you look a little bit lower down the page to paragraph 28 mr hayes you'll see there the in the last three lines you say jr's responsibility do you see jr's responsibility for
00:59:49 do you see jr's responsibility for developing rs 5000 was therefore a significant responsibility given that celetex's ability to meet sangoman's targets seemed to be heavily reliant on the success or failure of this product
01:00:00 success or failure of this product project
01:00:00 project of this product um were you surprised that mr roper was given the task of developing it given his relative inexperience and youth
01:00:11 his relative inexperience and youth no i don't recall thinking that at the time right did you ask yourself at the time whether or not he was tasked with doing what you say there because he was inexperienced and was therefore less
01:00:23 inexperienced and was therefore less likely to challenge the decision making
01:00:27 that is not something that i would have thought at the time right
01:00:35 if you go to paragraph 32 of your statement but page 11 two pages on please you say in the second sentence that the drive behind
01:00:51 uh you say the last line there there was significant pressure on jr from pe at the top of the business to develop the product and to do so quickly what made you think
01:01:02 and to do so quickly what made you think that
01:01:08 um so there were i guess a number of things that i witnessed which would inform that that um i gave an example um a moment
01:01:21 that um i gave an example um a moment ago about the the length of time between the first and the second test so that was one example um the conversations i witnessed about how
01:01:33 the conversations i witnessed about how they
01:01:34 they needed a product which could be considered to be a new product in order to meet the budget in terms of certain amounts of profit coming from things which are considered to be new products and i don't think
01:01:48 products and i don't think to my knowledge that there were other projects running at the time which would have allowed to have meet that target with with different products for example so it was kind of rs 5000 it has to be
01:01:59 so it was kind of rs 5000 it has to be this product which is going to to help us to achieve that goal and also just the level of interest that i
01:02:08 i i saw um so an example would be the 18-meter update meeting which i suspect will come to where craig
01:02:20 i suspect will come to where craig chambers
01:02:21 chambers was at that meeting and he was
01:02:25 you know very interested in that product in that project i beg your pardon um i'm very involved in the discussions at that at that meeting and and
01:02:35 and that showed to me because craig was the managing director um that it was very important to to the business yes
01:02:48 to the business yes it's right i think that in early 2013 jonathan roper approached you and asked for your help in developing rs 5000 or what was to become rs 5000 is that right that's correct yes
01:03:01 is that right that's correct yes and although i think you say you weren't the most knowledgeable or longest-serving member of the team presumably by that stage you had sufficient knowledge of the fr product fr 5000 to be able to help him in
01:03:13 fr 5000 to be able to help him in in the development of rs 5000. is that correct
01:03:18 yes so um i think that
01:03:23 yes that is correct yes and you say your paragraph 29 of your statement on page 10 if we can go back a page
01:03:35 you say my involvement in the development of rs 5000 was in my capacity as a tso
01:03:43 does that mean that you had more technical expertise than mr roper i think in some areas yes that's fair what areas so obviously
01:03:56 yes that's fair what areas so obviously i had been in the business longer than john and my role had been in the technical department so in areas such as the thermal performance of our products their practical application in certain
01:04:08 their practical application in certain constructions and um the fact that i was able to do thermal calculations for our products i think would all have been things um where i had a greater level of
01:04:19 um where i had a greater level of knowledge
01:04:21 knowledge um than john did um i think that in terms of the fire performance of our products and in terms of
01:04:30 of fire testing of our products i had never been involved in a project to develop a product before i'd never been involved in fire testing and my knowledge about
01:04:42 fire testing and my knowledge about the regulations to do with 18 meters were really solely based upon the technical bulletin which we looked at earlier which said
01:04:53 which we looked at earlier which said that um you know effectively we don't have a product for this um this market so i think it's fair to say that in
01:05:06 so i think it's fair to say that in many areas my knowledge about our products and their their application would have been greater than john's but in terms of um you know fire performance fire
01:05:18 um you know fire performance fire testing for example i think we would have been starting off pretty much at the same place which is at the beginning of the road
01:05:34 yes now we've seen earlier your october 2010 training document i showed you some of that before we
01:05:46 i showed you some of that before we might be able to take this a little bit more quickly can we take it that the information set out in
01:05:52 out in that training document was still in your mind and known to you when you became involved in early 2013 with mr raper on the
01:06:04 in early 2013 with mr raper on the development of rs 5000. um i'm not sure i would say it was a front of my mind um i obviously had the level of knowledge which is outlined in that
01:06:15 knowledge which is outlined in that document yes um it wasn't knowledge that we put to use every day because um a lot of the inquiries which we received were to do with
01:06:26 received were to do with low-rise buildings which is to say houses
01:06:30 houses and so queries regarding above 18 meters um were relatively rare although they did come through um with a degree
01:06:41 they did come through um with a degree of regularity yes were you familiar see if i can take this a little bit more shortly you've told us that you were you were familiar with the fact that there was a distinction between class naught on the
01:06:52 distinction between class naught on the one hand
01:06:53 one hand and the concept of limited combustibility on the other you knew that yes uh you were familiar enough with the the building regulations
01:07:04 regulations and particularly approved document b to know that there was an alternative route to compliance if you were going to apply insulation above 18 meters
01:07:12 18 meters namely a bsa414 test in accordance with uh what was in early 2013 br 135 edition 2 from 2003
01:07:23 br 135 edition 2 from 2003 yes yes and uh you were familiar i think with the requirements of br135 where you namely that you knew that if you did a
01:07:35 namely that you knew that if you did a test under bs8414 it was a full system test
01:07:45 uh yes and i think that would have even if that was in front of my mind i think we we quickly understood that in terms of the project as well yes and did you know or come to
01:07:58 yes and did you know or come to understand it uh that that under br135 um the test that you you did under one bsa414 in order to satisfy the br135
01:08:11 one bsa414 in order to satisfy the br135 criteria
01:08:12 criteria would only apply to the system as tested yes yes
01:08:21 and did you understand that the fire performance of the complete external cladding system was of critical importance
01:08:29 that's something that would become apparent during the course of the project
01:08:36 at what point did that become apparent to you
01:08:48 so our knowledge increased as we went through the project but an example which again i'm sure that we would come to would be um we had a meeting with a company
01:08:59 um we had a meeting with a company called
01:09:00 called sotech and they talked to us about some testing that they had undertaken with kingspan i see so the meetings in june and
01:09:12 i see so the meetings in june and october 2013 with sotek the eggintons
01:09:19 i think that i was only at one of those meetings yes we'll come to that but i think in general terms i think you accept that certainly at latest during the course of
01:09:30 certainly at latest during the course of 2013 you came to learn that far performance of the complete external cladding system as a system was of course it was of critical importance if you were going to do an
01:09:41 importance if you were going to do an 8414 test
01:09:43 8414 test [Applause] yes
01:09:49 yes now can we go to paragraph 13 of your statement please on page third i'm sorry sorry page 13 of your statement paragraph 39.
01:10:10 you say that our basic understanding at this point was that in order to be compliant under the relevant building regulations for a building above 18 meters
01:10:17 meters it was possible to either use materials of limited combustibility defined within the regulations for all elements of the cladding system this ruled out pir and phenolic phenolic foam or successfully complete
01:10:29 phenolic foam or successfully complete the test
01:10:30 the test kingspan had therefore taken the latter option and passed the test it was decided we would also undertake the test
01:10:36 the test and so we began seeking help with the components of our test rig does that accurately and fully set out your understanding of the technical options facing celetex in launching rs 5000 yes so putting it simply you had
01:10:50 rs 5000 yes so putting it simply you had to pass the bsa414 test and meet the br 135 criteria in relation to the system that you tested yes yes and
01:11:01 yes yes and from what you knew at the time did you think that others working with you on the rs 5000 launch were aware of what you set out there yes and then can we look at
01:11:15 yes and then can we look at br135 finally on this just to get the absolute words in front of you and to get you to confirm them uh this is at c e l five zeros 50584 please
01:11:30 this is a copy of the third edition of br 135 which was published in january of 2013. and we've seen from earlier evidence
01:11:42 and we've seen from earlier evidence from mr roper that he became aware of it within celetex uh not long afterwards but during i think the may of that year did you become aware of this edition at about that time as well do you think
01:11:54 about that time as well do you think yes i think that within celetex or given to us i'm not sure who possibly by rob
01:12:05 by rob there was a copy of the second edition and
01:12:08 and i think we came into a possession of the third edition i think possibly it might have been purchased
01:12:17 purchased for the sake of the project right
01:12:21 and if you look at page 33 in this document
01:12:26 document this is within uh appendix b nxb as you can see from the top right hand side of the document and annex b is about the performance
01:12:38 annex b is about the performance criteria and classification for bsa414 part two i've dived straight into the middle of the annex but if you look at that page you can see on the right hand side
01:12:51 on the right hand side there are three bullet points and underneath the bullet points it says the classification applies only to the system as tested and detailed in the classification report the classification report can only cover
01:13:02 the classification report can only cover the details of the system as tested it cannot state what is not covered when specifying or checking a system it is important to check that the classification documents cover the end use application
01:13:14 use application can we take it mr hayes that from the time you
01:13:17 time you read this this document in the first part of 2013 you were fully aware to those principles set out there yes i'm not sure if my understanding
01:13:29 yes i'm not sure if my understanding came from reading this document or whether it's a combination of things that we were learning on the project but i came to understand that the test was a test of the system
01:13:40 that the test was a test of the system that was on the rig on that day and only covered what was tested and did not cover other things and so far as you could observe from those around you working on the rs 5000
01:13:51 around you working on the rs 5000 project
01:13:52 project did they also know and understand the principles if not the exact wording yes i've set out in nxp there yes yes thank you mr chairman is that a convenient moment it's i think a convenient moment in the
01:14:04 it's i think a convenient moment in the questions yes very well we have a break during the morning and the afternoon uh mr hayes and this is a convenient time to take
01:14:12 to take a short break this morning so we're going to stop now we'll come back at 25 to 12 please thank you all right and uh i have to ask you while you're out of the room not to talk to anyone
01:14:23 out of the room not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it yes thank you no we should give the usher then please
01:14:45 thank you 25 to 12. please
01:34:20 yes would you ask mr hayes to come back in please
01:34:41 [Music]
01:34:45 all right mr hayes ready to carry on yes thank you thank you very much yes mr chairman thank you now mr hayes am i right in thinking that you were the only tso at celetex involved in the testing of rs5000 that's correct
01:34:59 in the testing of rs5000 that's correct uh now in terms of individuals rob warren was also involved wasn't he yes he was to what extent was he involved in the testing either in the design or the carrying out of the testing
01:35:11 of the testing so rob warren was head of technical so as well as managing our department he was basically the highest or most senior person technically within celetex
01:35:26 so might be helpful just to to to clarify that um paul and rob and john um
01:35:38 rob and john um were physically in very close proximity to each other so either possibly even john and paul sharing an office
01:35:45 office or their offices being essentially right next to
01:35:48 next to each other and so i think that it was very common for them to talk often
01:35:56 often to to share information and i think that paul and john would have leaned on rob quite a bit for input
01:36:07 quite a bit for input and he would have been involved in many discussions around the project rob was present at key meetings
01:36:19 rob was present at key meetings such as the 18 metre update meeting which we may come to i believe that rob was present at both tests he was certainly present
01:36:30 at both tests he was certainly present at the first test that i was also present at rob was at um the introduction training which was
01:36:41 um the introduction training which was delivered by john and rob to the celetex technical center team on the introduction of rs5000
01:36:47 rs5000 and i think that rob would also have been present although i have to say i'm not
01:36:51 not sure if this is the case but it would be normal for him to be present at um national sales conferences when where new products are launched and so
01:37:02 where new products are launched and so he may would have been at that event as well
01:37:08 can we go to page 12 of your statement please and look at paragraph 36
01:37:17 you say that our initial considerations focused on figuring out what the rules and regulations were with respect to insulation for buildings above 18 meters and where we could find this information
01:37:31 and then later on in that paragraph you say
01:37:35 say we knew we wanted to compete with kingspan's k-15 and then you go on to say the starting point with kingspan's literature they had a publicly accessible data sheet and a bba certificate for their kf15 prod their
01:37:47 certificate for their kf15 prod their k15 product as well as some literature on their website we relied on no more than 10 relevant documents to provide this key information and you give some examples
01:37:59 so do we take it from that that although you had come to the project with the knowledge that we discussed just before the break about br 135 and the bs 8414 testing
01:38:11 about br 135 and the bs 8414 testing in general terms your further research took you to the kingspan marketing literature yes that's correct now let's look at these documents or
01:38:23 now let's look at these documents or some of them first please ceo408509
01:38:35 this is a kingspan technical bulletin as you can see from the top right top top left hand corner and top right hand corner third issue september 2010
01:38:46 hand corner third issue september 2010 is this one of the documents that you looked at as part of your initial researches yeah i believe so and it's called insulation for ventilated rain screen cladding systems compliance with the proof document b2
01:39:01 and if you look at page 3 on that document you can see that there is section 12.5 of adb which i think you were familiar with anyway is that right
01:39:14 yes we're familiar with that information from the
01:39:19 from the technical bulletin number 26 which then formed the basis for the document that i had produced which i think gave this information and if you go to page four
01:39:32 and if you go to page four at the top it says kingspan cool firm k15 rain screen board is the first insulation board to achieve labc type of approval as a thermal insulation layer in a range
01:39:44 thermal insulation layer in a range screen cladding systems it remains the only insulation board that holds both bba certification and labc type approval was that statement there a factor in the
01:39:57 was that statement there a factor in the decision that celetex took later to obtain labc registered details for rs 5000
01:40:08 for rs 5000 i think that the fact that kingspan had those accreditations would have informed celesex's decision
01:40:20 would have informed celesex's decision to get labc approval yeah now someone has written expired and then underneath that k-15 week i think that's what it says do you know
01:40:30 know whether those scribbles were on the document that you looked at or whether somebody had somebody within celitex added those
01:40:40 that looks like my handwriting right and i wonder
01:40:44 i wonder looking at this document the fact that it looks to be a scan or photocopy type document
01:40:50 document um i wonder if this version of it has actually been taken off my desk possibly right do you know what you meant by expired k15 week
01:41:02 they might be separate notes so it might be that expired is one note and that possibly refers to labc although i don't remember why i
01:41:13 labc although i don't remember why i wrote that now and then k15 week might be um a different note and refer to something different but i don't remember now what why i
01:41:25 but i don't remember now what why i wrote that okay 15 week or what that means
01:41:30 right
01:41:34 and then you can see a little bit lower down just to finish this page off uh it refers in the third paragraph down to the labc type approval
01:41:45 type approval thus it says ease is the planning process for projects incorporating kingsborough kingspan cool them k-15 range green board and applies in all situations shown on diagram 40 of approved document b
01:41:56 diagram 40 of approved document b volume 2 including those parts of a building more than 18 meters above ground figure 5. and there on in figure 5 is diagram 40 of approved document b provisions for external surfaces or
01:42:08 provisions for external surfaces or walls
01:42:10 walls which on the right hand side there refers to class naught as being the classification for fire for the requirement of external wall surfaces
01:42:21 surfaces when you looked at that did you ask yourself what the relevance of k-15 having uh class naught was
01:42:33 class naught was by reference in particular to diagram 40 as they've set out on the page there
01:42:40 no i i don't believe that i did um i remember when i first saw diagram 40 as being quite confused as to what it actually
01:42:50 actually meant um
01:42:53 meant um and whether it was referring to the performance of the cladding or the performance of insulation um but i believe what diagram 40 is talking about is the um the
01:43:07 the um the performance of the cladding rather than the performance of the insulation board
01:43:14 and i would have formed an opinion i think at some point although i'm not exactly sure when that actually that diagram is not relevant to insulation performance
01:43:25 relevant to insulation performance indeed and uh as such did you then begin to question the reliability of kingspan's marketing material such as this
01:43:36 i don't remember querying that part of it or feeling that that particular part of it was i don't remember paying a lot of attention to that particular part
01:43:47 that particular part of it although there certainly were parts of kingspan's literature that we found
01:43:55 found confusing and
01:44:02 i'm not really clear how it matched what we were seeing as inquiries coming into the business can we go to cel 408510 please
01:44:15 this is kingspan's datasheet for cool foam k15 rain screen board insulation for rain screen clouding systems and at the top right hand corner you'll see that it was
01:44:27 you'll see that it was the ninth issue march 2011. see that was this also one of the kingspan documents that you looked at as part of your researches yes we definitely would have looked at
01:44:39 yes we definitely would have looked at the cool thumb k15 literature um whether this was the exact dated version that we saw i don't specifically recall
01:44:51 specifically recall but um if this is the version which was current at the time which would have been you know 2013 then yes it would have been yes
01:45:02 then yes it would have been yes let me show you the third bullet point down on the right hand side it says successfully tested to bs 841 for 2002
01:45:11 for 2002 and can meet the criteria within br135 and then it says and is therefore acceptable for use above 18 meters
01:45:27 first given that the reference to 8414 2002
01:45:34 2002 was a reference to part one did you understand that at that time k-15 didn't have a pass at bs8414
01:45:46 a pass at bs8414 part 2 2005.
01:45:51 yes i believe we became aware of that during the project and as we looked at their documentation
01:46:00 did you also become aware of the fact that notwithstanding that kingspan had not had a pass at bs8414 part 2 2005.
01:46:11 at bs8414 part 2 2005. nonetheless it was being used on steel frame constructions did you know that
01:46:21 yes i think i would have done what did that tell you about the way kingspan was
01:46:29 using or not using the tests to sell its cool firm k-15 um i think initially it told us that they have managed to gain wide market
01:46:41 they have managed to gain wide market acceptance for their product um with lots of different types of constructions i think not only the variance of the
01:46:53 i think not only the variance of the steel frame to masonry but possibly with lots of different cladding types as well and they have managed to do that on the basis of
01:47:03 i think the literature any reference is a single test that they had completed then sticking with the wording as i've shown you it says in that bullet point can meet the criteria within br135
01:47:16 can meet the criteria within br135 now you told us earlier that at least come the first part of 2013 you had read annex b of br135 and understood that br 135
01:47:29 of br135 and understood that br 135 the criteria there only applied to the system as tested was that so when you looked at this document
01:47:36 document yes i think we would have had that awareness as we reviewed this document yes and and then when you go on to see the
01:47:43 the words that follow it and is therefore acceptable for use above 80 meters
01:47:51 but therefore did you think that that meant
01:47:55 meant that kingspan was saying that k15 could be used in any system or were they saying only in a system exactly the same as the system tested
01:48:10 i think and it it's difficult to say exactly when you formed a view because i've obviously have looked at these documents many times from
01:48:21 documents many times from the beginning of our rs-5000 project as i sit here today and so it's sometimes difficult to say what was in my mind at that time but i believe we would have formed a view that this was a piece of
01:48:34 that this was a piece of clever marketing and that they were trying to
01:48:39 imply that their product could be used with a wide variety of different constructions
01:48:49 even though even though that was not strictly speaking correct right when you say clever marketing let me just press you just a little did
01:49:01 let me just press you just a little did it occur to you at the time when you read this
01:49:03 read this that the statement and is therefore acceptable for use above 18 meters was misleading
01:49:11 i don't i think at the time we would have wondered how they were able to do it
01:49:17 it and possibly we might have thought is there a trick that we've missed so for example did they have um
01:49:29 did they have um an engineering report or a technical judgment which might have meant that they were able to to show that they could be used with other systems maybe they had some testing that they
01:49:40 maybe they had some testing that they hadn't referenced on their literature so i think certainly initially it was how were they able to do it so i don't think
01:49:51 don't think would have necessarily formed the opinion at the very beginning kingspan are doing something wrong there's something rotten here i think it would have been
01:50:02 would have been how and how are they doing it would have been the question to start with did you note when you read that that there is no caveat or disclaimer here that k-15 can
01:50:14 caveat or disclaimer here that k-15 can only be used in the same system as that tested
01:50:19 i think to be fair i probably would read the whole document and see before that
01:50:26 that has been placed into context somewhere else
01:50:31 else so i can't immediately recall what's on the other pages of this document but perhaps that they have included a caveat somewhere else um
01:50:43 but i would agree that if you look at that statement in and of itself that is misleading
01:50:58 well let's look a little bit lower down page six just to make sure that we don't only take a partial look at the documents go to page six right hand side under the heading fire performance you can see
01:51:12 heading fire performance you can see there there's a reference to class naught at the top and then it says halfway down underneath the test kingspan cool them k-15 rain screen board in the construction specified at the table belay when
01:51:24 specified at the table belay when subjected to the british standard fire test bsa414 part of 2002 for performance of external cladding systems test methods for non-load-bearing external plating systems applied to the
01:51:35 external plating systems applied to the face of a building has achieved the results shown below and it sets out the construction and the result
01:51:46 and it says the tested product under result
01:51:49 result meets the criteria stated in bre-135 fire performance of external thermal insulation walls of multi-storey buildings and is therefore acceptable for use above 18 meters
01:52:00 for use above 18 meters in accordance with the building regulations stroke standards did you read that yes i'm sure that we would have done did that strike you at the time as a
01:52:11 did that strike you at the time as a disciple or
01:52:14 caveat
01:52:28 so
01:52:33 i think they're trying to strongly imply that you could use that in multiple constructions but it sort of doesn't make logical sense because on the left-hand column
01:52:44 sense because on the left-hand column they've provided details of a system that passes but on the right hand side they are i think strongly implying that because of that test you can use it
01:52:55 that because of that test you can use it in any building above 18 meters and was that a thought you had at the time when you looked at this document as part of your initial researches i think we would have come to that conclusion at some point um
01:53:06 conclusion at some point um but as i said i think initially when we looked at it i think the thought would have been
01:53:11 have been how have they done it is there something that's not clear have they got you know something up their sleeve i guess which would allow them to to make that statement yes
01:53:24 to to make that statement yes now a little bit later in the year 2013 can we go to cel40308 well i'd like to go to page two in that
01:53:35 well i'd like to go to page two in that please first of all and about a third of the way down the second page there you can see that there is an email sent on the 18th of october
01:53:50 uh you can see that from jonathan roper to you
01:53:54 to you kingspan ctc inquiry and jonathan raper i think says anything i've missed and then the set out purpose to gain further information on
01:54:06 purpose to gain further information on what recommendations kingspan are giving in regards to use of k15 in buildings above
01:54:10 above 18 meters and then underneath it it says project first project of this scale student to com straight commercial metsec frame cement particle gourd envelope in v1 bracket systems with trespameti on two millimeter
01:54:21 trespameti on two millimeter panels rivet fixed objectives is k15 applicable with all cladding systems two millimeters or three millimeters aluminium panels trespa mali etc
01:54:32 aluminium panels trespa mali etc as their bba certificate states the test used a cementitious board as the overcladding and then there are further objectives and questions set out underneath that and the third one
01:54:42 one you can see is which particular system was tested to br 135 and what assurances can they give that it covers all cladding systems it was this exercise one which was part
01:54:54 it was this exercise one which was part of a mystery shopper exercise to try to find out more about k-15 i i believe that's exactly what it was right and if we scroll up i think we can then see how this turns out um you go back to jamie
01:55:06 this turns out um you go back to jamie hayes on the 18th of october bottom of page one top of page two and then on page one if you just go up to that
01:55:13 that um jonathan roper sends an email to debbie berger 18th of october 2013 copy to you
01:55:19 to you hi debbie if you are still happy to carry out the mystery call of scenario on kingspan could the three of us get together early afternoon today see the brief below etc uh
01:55:31 now we've seen the first bullet point and the third bullet point questions is it right that by this stage you and mr raper were aware that the br 135 certification only covered the tested
01:55:43 certification only covered the tested configuration and components i think that's right isn't it looking at the the br one three five and yeah earlier i think that is correct yes yes and what prompted you to ask these
01:55:54 yes and what prompted you to ask these two questions about the breadth of the application of k15 i think it goes back to what we were just talking about when we could see how
01:56:05 just talking about when we could see how kingsborough were marketing their material and confusion within celetex of of how they were had able to be to be widely accepted
01:56:17 widely accepted and just trying to find out some more information
01:56:22 about how they were able to do that about what they were telling customers and how they would answer inquiries um to to potential customers right so the idea would be to pose as a potential
01:56:34 the idea would be to pose as a potential customer
01:56:35 customer with a student accommodation type building and ask those questions and see what they said yeah and i think a key part of it was to try and get them to send us a copy of their test report right now the email at the top of this
01:56:47 right now the email at the top of this thread
01:56:49 thread on page one uh
01:56:53 suggests that debbie berger may have carried out the mystery shopper exercise do you know whether she did she did she did you know what the results were yes i think that it was undertaken in the same room with me and john
01:57:05 the same room with me and john and that debbie was on the phone and we were listening in although i don't think we had the technical capability to listen to
01:57:12 listen to both sides right so it may have been that we were just listening to debbie's half of it but i'm sure she would have fed back what happened in the conversation when the conversation finished will you say you're sure she would have done did she yes she did what did she
01:57:24 done did she yes she did what did she say
01:57:28 but in fact we could hear ourselves how the conversation was progressing and i believe
01:57:33 believe that when she spoke to an operative of the kingspan technical center um that they told her explicitly that kingsbound was suitable
01:57:44 explicitly that kingsbound was suitable for her project and i believe that she then said brilliant
01:57:49 brilliant can you please send me a copy of your test report and then i understand my understanding is that the person that she was speaking to became quite nervous and backs down and
01:58:00 became quite nervous and backs down and said oh
01:58:01 said oh no no we can't do that and in fact what you'll need to do is submit your full enquiry to us in writing and i'm not able to help you any further on the telephone
01:58:11 telephone did you submit a request in writing or did debbie berger do you think no you didn't you stopped at that point yes because i think we realized it was not going to be possible to
01:58:22 not going to be possible to push that any further right why did you think that it wasn't going to be possible to obtain kingspen's test report
01:58:30 i think we had formed a view that that would be very closely guarded
01:58:39 and i think that was entirely unusual for
01:58:43 for information to come into the business from celetex's partners so it might be that um a distributor that we had a relationship with or maybe
01:58:54 that we had a relationship with or maybe another
01:58:55 another or a specifier that we had a relationship with would perhaps give us documents that they had got from other companies that you wouldn't be able to ask for directly
01:59:07 directly and i think from the fact that we don't we
01:59:10 we hadn't ever heard of anybody having seen their test report i think we formed a view that um they were
01:59:19 were very careful not to release it to to anybody or to allow it to be seen by the open market yes i mean after all that was it seems the same practice that celetex followed
01:59:30 celetex followed not to let test reports out because that was really correct right so did it play in your thinking that because seletechs were also similarly very guarded about their end test reports they wouldn't expect
01:59:41 test reports they wouldn't expect kingspan to be any different i'm not sure that i formed that for you because i think the kind of test reports that we would have had previously wouldn't have been so relevant so they
01:59:52 wouldn't have been so relevant so they would be things like a class zero test report
01:59:54 report and i'm not sure how that would be relevant to a customer or that we had very often been asked for those right
02:00:04 can we then turn to meetings that you had with ifc and sotech we referred to satac earlier on in your evidence yes um can we go to your statement of
02:00:15 yes um can we go to your statement of page 13 please and look at paragraph 39 you we've looked at this before i think but you
02:00:22 but you you and you confirmed that and you say that once you've understood that the options were either to use materials of limited combustibility or be successfully tested bs
02:00:34 be successfully tested bs 8414 i'm summarizing there you say it was decided if you look in the last sentence it was decided we would also undertake the test and so we began seeking help
02:00:45 and so we began seeking help with the components of our test rig do you remember when the decision was made to seek help with components of the test rig for the test
02:00:56 rig for the test um i don't know so my role on the project was to help john really with tasks as and when i was asked to do so so my work on the
02:01:09 i was asked to do so so my work on the project represented a a fraction of a percentage of my time which was spent primarily doing my day-to-day work which is answering customer inquiries so i think john would
02:01:20 customer inquiries so i think john would have arranged this meeting have asked me to go with him i would have got permission to do that from my manager which would have been rob warren and i would have attended the meeting with him
02:01:36 meeting with him and who was it who made the decision to undertake the test i think the decision would have been made by
02:01:45 made by um primarily by paul evans and craig chambers did you yourself have a discussion with craig chambers about undertaking the
02:01:56 craig chambers about undertaking the test
02:01:57 test no but i was present at a meeting that craig was at which was the 18 meter update um and actually i think perhaps that
02:02:09 um and actually i think perhaps that meeting was when a decision perhaps had was made to undertake the test right when you refer to the 18 meter update meeting was that a meeting on the 4th of november
02:02:22 that a meeting on the 4th of november 2013
02:02:24 2013 for which mr roper produced some slides yes
02:02:27 yes right we may come to that later on but can i just ask you in light of the decision to undertake the test about some of the meetings with ifc and sotech
02:02:38 ifc and sotech if we can go to paragraph 40 the next paragraph of your statement you say uh in or around may june 2013 jr arranged a couple of
02:02:50 may june 2013 jr arranged a couple of meetings at the ifc and i went along with him on at least one occasion we met a person called peter and a lady whose name i cannot now recall the lady would later come along to the
02:03:02 the lady would later come along to the first bre test with us just pausing there was that peter jackman yes it was and the lady was that dr parina patel yes and actually since i submitted this
02:03:14 yes and actually since i submitted this statement i found a business card for that lady and her name was parina patel if we go to cel 3010340.
02:03:33 this is an email run at the end of may 2013
02:03:37 2013 and if you look at the second email done on that page this is an email from jonathan rapper to you 28th of may 2013 jamie peter at ifc has asked if we can make a 2pm appointment next monday to
02:03:48 make a 2pm appointment next monday to discuss above 18 meters and then if you look at your response to him at the top of page 1 you go back to him the next day and say it's okay with me john how long is the journey
02:03:58 journey now we it looks as if the meeting had been fixed for the third of june 2013 which was the next monday there is a meeting uh later on on the 22nd of june 2013
02:04:11 later on on the 22nd of june 2013 for which we have notes but we don't have any notes of any meeting early in june 2013. did the meeting take place do you think
02:04:21 wow um
02:04:26 i
02:04:37 i was at one meeting i believe at ifc's offices
02:04:41 offices um but i can't actually remember the the date that that was um i think there was october in fact okay we'll come to the note of that in a moment but you don't recall
02:04:52 moment but you don't recall meeting uh in june at all meeting ifc in june at all i may be getting the the two different ones confused um right i remember um
02:05:04 um right i remember um one meeting um but i don't remember the the date of it um but i think i say in my statement that i may have been at more than one meeting right
02:05:15 right maybe we can disentangle this a little bit um
02:05:18 bit um it seems that there was a meeting in october 2013. let me just show you the note of that because it's a meeting at which so tech were also present cel 30 is one
02:05:30 were also present cel 30 is one one zero five two and we can see that this is a meeting on the 3rd of october 2013 to discuss above
02:05:41 the 3rd of october 2013 to discuss above 18 meters fire test and you can see that at that meeting john eggington from satech was there and david cooper from ifc was there but not peter jackman or perina patel when you were there at that meeting
02:05:52 when you were there at that meeting so um i think there was a meeting with ifc and that was at their offices which i attended and i think that in this meeting where we're we're at sotech
02:06:03 we're we're at sotech and david cooper has driven to me to set that
02:06:06 that meeting right so you met so you met ifc people twice but you had one meeting with the ifc at their offices yes right so we'll come back to that we'll take that off the screen
02:06:15 screen and go to paragraph 41 of your statement if we can please
02:06:21 also on page 13 as you can see in front of you
02:06:25 of you and you say there from our meeting with the ifc
02:06:30 the ifc we established that a field of application report f-o-a-r involves an expert's opinion that a product was acceptable for use in a way similar
02:06:38 similar and not identical to the way tested in the test rig now as far as you recall it is this right that it was the ifc who told you that a field of application
02:06:49 who told you that a field of application report was possible yes um we met with um peter and um perina and possibly another member of
02:07:01 perina and possibly another member of their team peter gave the impression of being extremely experienced he was a character and he was not shy in putting forward that he was a
02:07:13 in putting forward that he was a a heavy hitter um and he talked about how he had um effectively in his memory had drafted the the hong kong fire regulations
02:07:28 the the hong kong fire regulations and yes they gave the strong impression that it
02:07:32 that it might be possible to use an 8414 test and from that test produce a field of applications report which would allow some components of that rig to then be
02:07:44 some components of that rig to then be varied did mr jackman or dr patel identify any official guidance or industry practice which allowed a field of application report to be used in conjunction with the bs 8414 test
02:07:57 in conjunction with the bs 8414 test result
02:07:58 result not that i remember they may have referenced um some standards which i don't now recall
02:08:09 now recall right uh now just to go back then to the meeting on the 3rd of october the note of which i have just shown you you deal with that at paragraphs 42 and
02:08:20 you deal with that at paragraphs 42 and 43 of your statement over the page age 14
02:08:25 and you set out your recollection of that
02:08:30 we can look at the note of the meeting it's as i say it's ceo zero five two which is what we just looked at a moment ago and i'd like to get back to you with you
02:08:42 uh and it says and this is we think john roper's note can you confirm that i actually believe that i wrote this you thought you wrote this yes under
02:08:55 you thought you wrote this yes under fire test
02:08:55 fire test very problematic to pass
02:09:00 kingspan failed twice with standard cavity barriers just on that do you remember who said that yes that would have been john from so tech right and then third bullet
02:09:12 from so tech right and then third bullet bullet point down still no idea how kingspan support the use of decorative cladding as their fire test
02:09:19 test uses a non-combustible cladding you remember who said that
02:09:27 i think that is
02:09:31 that note is intended to show i think um a view that was formed by the people at that meeting together as opposed to one person saying that
02:09:42 as opposed to one person saying that so that was a joint no idea yes right and the reference to combustible cl a decorative cladding as you can see in that third bullet point
02:09:53 that third bullet point uh is also referred to in the second bullet point john at sotex skeptical about past with decorative cladding what did you understand by the phrase decorative cladding
02:10:05 well as i look at that today i'm not sure i remember exactly um what is meant by that i think that it is either a reference to any cladding which is
02:10:18 a normal cladding panel and by by a normal cladding panel i mean something that you could actually was was put to market to be a cladding panel of a building
02:10:30 panel of a building um in as opposed to
02:10:35 the cement board that kingspan had used um but it might also refer to because i think i might not have remembered this correctly but i think
02:10:46 remembered this correctly but i think that sotex specialized in certain types of cladding and i think that they did aluminium cladding and high pressure laminates
02:10:55 laminates and so it may have been when he's maybe when john is talking about decorative cladding he's thinking the types of cladding that he uses which is to say aluminium and high
02:11:08 uses which is to say aluminium and high pressure laminates and might not for example include things like
02:11:12 like fiber cement panels which i don't think john
02:11:16 john ever got involved in right were you aware that satee had previously met john roper in june 2013 and told him that they had attempted to test to bs 841 for part two using
02:11:27 841 for part two using kingspan k 15 and had failed no i was not aware of that but um i think that the same conversation happened at this meeting
02:11:38 happened at this meeting and john or not the same conversation but
02:11:41 but john did reference testing with kingspan and failing during this meeting right were you given any details about the fatal kingspan tests
02:11:54 the fatal kingspan tests yes um what do they what did they say
02:12:00 well i i got the impression that he wasn't supposed to talk about it because he had possibly been under a non-disclosure agreement but he
02:12:09 but he made his own decision that he would do so anyway and he described them as failing quite badly and uh i think he made the comment that
02:12:23 and uh i think he made the comment that one of them had fouled so badly that there had been concerns from the bra that it was going to set the roof of the burn hall on fire right and indeed at paragraph 42 you do
02:12:34 right and indeed at paragraph 42 you do say that sotek told you that k15 had failed badly using aluminium cladding and that's not in your note why is it not on your note
02:12:51 i'm not sure um i think in the first paragraph i've got very problematic to pass king's band failed twice with standard cavity barriers perhaps i felt that covered that
02:13:03 perhaps i felt that covered that or perhaps i was um trying to show trying to be more formal perhaps in terms of how this document is laid
02:13:14 in terms of how this document is laid out rather than being anecdotal i suppose or right can we just look at paragraph 42
02:13:25 you say in the last part of that paragraph three lines up from the end but john eggington from satech informed us that saytek had undertaking an attest with kingspan
02:13:36 undertaking an attest with kingspan which had failed badly using aluminium cladding
02:13:39 cladding and following that setac had no further involvement with the testing of kingspan products they say although it's not in your note
02:13:48 your note you're confirming are you here today that that was the subject of discussion at that meeting yes it's not in your note no that's correct
02:13:59 note no that's correct so can we take it from that meeting that you were aware as a result that aluminium rain screen panels would not likely have passed with rs 5000 either yes
02:14:13 with rs 5000 either yes now do you remember whether there was any discussion of acm panels aluminium composite material panels
02:14:22 panels at that meeting um i think at that time i don't think i would have necessarily understood what acm was or what the difference between
02:14:33 difference between acm and aluminium was so i understand now that there are differences between solid aluminium and aluminium composite materials i understand that there are differences
02:14:44 understand that there are differences between aluminium composite materials but i don't recall that i understood that well
02:14:49 that well at the time that i wrote that note had you not come across acm panels in the course of your by then um eight years at nine years at celetex
02:15:03 years at nine years at celetex um i'm sure that i would have come across them so just to try and expand upon that a bit many of the inquiries that we received into celetex were for low-rise buildings so
02:15:16 celetex were for low-rise buildings so rain screen inquiries would have been a lot rarer
02:15:20 lot rarer but also the the major part of our job in technical was to perform u-value calculations for people and when you do a u-value calculation for a range screen clouding application
02:15:31 for a range screen clouding application it doesn't matter what the actual range screen panel is hopefully um
02:15:44 going back to the note if we can the cl three zeros one one zero five two [Applause]
02:15:55 [Applause] you you can see
02:16:00 uh in the first bullet point it says very unlikely to pass was that your view or something that was said at the meeting just to be clear
02:16:13 i think that is a record of a consensus which was performed at that meeting right i mean did john egginten or david cooper
02:16:24 i mean did john egginten or david cooper say you celetex are very unlikely to get what became rs 5000 to pass a bs 8414 test
02:16:34 8414 test i don't remember that explicitly
02:16:37 my impression was and i have to be careful because i've seen a lot of evidence and documents
02:16:44 but i i i think i'm quite insane that the impression i had at the time was that john didn't like kingspan very much he didn't like them as people he didn't like their product he liked
02:16:58 he didn't like their product he liked mineral wall um and that he i think equated um pir and phenolic foam
02:17:09 um pir and phenolic foam being quite um he saw them in the same way i think so i think that he would have had the view that if king's band have passed you are
02:17:22 that if king's band have passed you are not going to pass looking at the fourth bullet point it says very unlikely to pass on the basis that celetex fr 5000 is slightly better than phenolic according to ifc testing
02:17:33 to ifc testing can you just explain what that means i think that goes back to the meeting that we had had with ifc and they had expressed a view to us that they felt that
02:17:45 um fr 5000 might have a slightly better performance than phenolic foam in terms of fire and therefore you might be able to do slightly more with it
02:17:56 slightly more with it in terms of passing a test than you would be able to do with phononic foam right i just like to try to understand the sentence very unlikely to pass
02:18:04 pass on the basis that celetex fr 5000 is slightly better than phenolic why would it be very unlikely to pass
02:18:12 to pass if fr 5000 was better than phenolic because i need i'm
02:18:19 i guess because you'd need to be not just a little bit better than kingspan you'd have to be a lot better and that perhaps small variances between
02:18:31 and that perhaps small variances between pir and phenolic are not going to be enough to overcome the fact that king's banner seems to have failed right quite badly still doesn't quite explain the the the words in the sentence
02:18:42 words in the sentence on the basis that celetex fr 5000 is slightly better than phenolic if celitex fr
02:18:48 fr 5000 was better than phenolic would that wouldn't that mean that it was more likely to pass than kingspan yes it would and it doesn't say that though no it doesn't um so can you explain
02:19:10 so let's say that kingspan has failed quite badly in that test um you have a product which is
02:19:19 is slightly better
02:19:23 um and that is still going to be quite unlikely to pass because you'd have to be a whole lot better right i see so does that mean that kingspan was very problematic
02:19:35 problematic uh rs 5000 as it became was still problematic still very unlikely to pass but only marginally more likely
02:19:45 yes with the types of cladding that john is
02:19:48 is um familiar with which i think would have been
02:19:52 have been aluminium and high pressure laminates and that failure uh potential for failure was that in all cases
02:19:59 cases or only with a metal panel or decorative cladding perhaps
02:20:07 i don't really remember but i think i got the impression that they had done the same test twice so they hadn't done one test and said
02:20:18 so they hadn't done one test and said let's change some stuff around they had done the first one test and then had another crack at it
02:20:27 you can see in the fifth bullet point down it says possible idea to design quotes double cavity fire barrier close quotes
02:20:35 quotes and who said that at the meeting i think it was a
02:20:39 it was a an idea which was put forward to us by john at sotech and would that be an unusual feature in a construction in your experience as it
02:20:50 a construction in your experience as it stood at the time no i don't think so i think at that point in time we didn't really understand what were the parameters that would make
02:21:03 what were the parameters that would make a test
02:21:03 a test more or less likely to pass so when john came up the idea of having a double cavity fire barrier i thought we probably thought oh that's
02:21:14 i thought we probably thought oh that's a pretty good idea that's maybe we can take that away and everything about that right did he say that he had used one no i think he
02:21:25 say that he had used one no i think he was um
02:21:27 was um spitballing i don't i don't think spitballing um what that means yes sorry i think he was just sitting there and and giving ideas off the top of his head i did i wasn't aware that he was saying
02:21:38 wasn't aware that he was saying there is this product in the market that you could use i think he was saying you could kind of make that yourself
02:21:45 yourself if that makes sense by using two products which are commonly available and combining them into one right okay is that something you had thought of yourself before or nice news to you right in fact our
02:21:58 nice news to you right in fact our knowledge of fire barriers i think as we stood there at that meeting was virtually zero right he was the one who came up with this idea of the double cavity fire barrier as a possibility
02:22:11 as a possibility yes but just to what he meant there was a
02:22:14 a metal tray with a mineral wool on top and that is a completely different concept
02:22:22 concept from what would later become the fire barrier with the missing material i follow can you go to page two in this document please
02:22:35 document please at the top of there that page you see there in the first bullet point it says on the basis that the fire test is going to be a close call if we can even pass it i think we cannot rely on the field of applications
02:22:47 cannot rely on the field of applications report
02:22:48 report allowing a breathable membrane over the face of the insulation does that bullet point record your own thoughts or something that was said during the meeting by somebody or anybody else
02:23:02 yes this is to do with positioning of breathable membranes so
02:23:09 in our literature for rain screen cladding and there was literature for rain screen clouding because it was used or suitable for use on
02:23:17 on on low rise buildings celestex showed that a breathable membrane would be positioned on the outside face of the insulation which means that in
02:23:30 which means that in a fire event the flame would hit the breathable membrane before it hit the insulation right um and
02:23:40 um and kingspan had always shown the breathable membrane behind the insulation where it's hidden away between the insulation the sheathing board
02:23:51 insulation the sheathing board and my thought here was oh you know we need to think about this because actually if we have the breathable membrane in the position where
02:24:01 where it has always historically been required to be for said attacks you know isn't that going to cause a problem
02:24:10 problem um and my thought there is is that the field of app because i don't think it would be common to put the breathable membrane in the test itself so i'm trying to raise the the thought
02:24:22 so i'm trying to raise the the thought there about that i don't think that a field of applications report such as might be produced by ifc is going to be a allow you to or account for the fact
02:24:33 allow you to or account for the fact that you have this breathable membrane over the front face of the insulation um it wasn't a concern that anybody else was really interested in and what happened in the end was that sodatex changed its position on where
02:24:45 sodatex changed its position on where the breathable membrane should be and basically said we're going to pick it up and move it behind the insulation the same as kingspan would does is it fair to say that the upshot of this meeting was that you came
02:24:56 upshot of this meeting was that you came away
02:24:58 away uh not particularly optimistic about the prospects of passing a bsa414 test for rs 5000. certainly with the types of cladding
02:25:08 cladding that john did right which were various types of metal claddings and high pressure laminates and those types
02:25:19 high pressure laminates and those types of cladding were is this right fairly representative of a wide range of cladding panels being used in the market yeah i don't think at this time or really much later i really ever
02:25:31 time or really much later i really ever understood
02:25:34 what the percentages were of what types of cladding panel would be most commonly used so let's say that you have a hundred buildings
02:25:45 have a hundred buildings would 60 of those buildings be acm and 20 of those buildings be fiber cement and eight of those buildings be terracotta or so i don't think i really
02:25:57 or so i don't think i really understood what percentage of the market those types of cladding panels would be right did you have any views at the time about the representative nature of the cladding panel that kingspan had
02:26:09 of the cladding panel that kingspan had used in order to pass their a414 test yes i think the feeling was that it was completely unrepresentative of any panel which would ever be used in real life right can we look
02:26:21 be used in real life right can we look at cell
02:26:23 at cell 50615 please this is a copy of kingspan's 2008 october 2008 certificate which has been disclosed to
02:26:36 certificate which has been disclosed to the inquiry by celetex uh was it in celetex's possession because you had considered this document as part of your research do you think i'm sure that it would have been yes
02:26:47 i'm sure that it would have been yes right uh now let's look at the first page of it um three-quarters of the way down you can see behavior in relation to fire under the heading key factors assessed
02:26:58 under the heading key factors assessed and it says that it says the boards will not contribute to the development stages of a fire the product has been tested to bsa414 part 1 2002
02:27:09 part 1 2002 for one specific construction on masonry walls
02:27:12 walls c-section 7. did you read that do you think
02:27:15 think at the time when you looked at this
02:27:21 i'm sure that we would have done yes yes and if you look at uh part seven or section seven um this is uh on page five
02:27:32 at the bottom of the page there it says the following fire tests have been undertaken
02:27:40 uh to bs eight four one four part one part 2002 for masonry substrates and it identifies the build up there and in the second uh line it says it refers to the
02:27:52 line it says it refers to the six millimeter thick cement particle boards
02:27:57 boards when you saw this you would have realized would you that that the panels which had been used on the exterior face of the test rig by kingspan
02:28:05 kingspan was a six millimeter thick cement particle board well i i think there was a bit more confusion than that because um i think in the document that we
02:28:17 um i think in the document that we looked at together a short while ago which was their data sheet
02:28:21 sheet it described the cladding as being a six millimeter non-combustible board yes and i think our basic understanding at the time was that cement particle boards
02:28:31 boards weren't normally non-combustible so actually
02:28:35 actually right it's not just the fact that that's not a normal cladding board i think there seems to be some inconsistency between the bba certificate and kingspan's literature okay thank you and um while we're on
02:28:47 okay thank you and um while we're on this if we can just go back uh a page
02:28:54 uh a page you can see under section 7.1 under the heading behavior in relation to fire it says this the product is classified as class naught or low risk
02:29:05 as class naught or low risk as defined in the documents supporting the national building regulations the product therefore may be used in accordance with the provisions of england and wales approved document b paragraph 8.4 volume 1
02:29:17 paragraph 8.4 volume 1 and paragraph 12.5 12.6 and 12.7 volume 2 see also diagram 40. did you see that at the time i'm sure
02:29:28 did you see that at the time i'm sure that we would have done yes did you ask yourself what the relevance of section 12.7 of adb was given that on any view k15 was never a material of limited
02:29:39 was never a material of limited combustibility
02:29:45 well i think that approved document b has those paragraphs and some of the paragraphs talk about it has to be of limited compassibility and some of those paragraphs
02:29:56 and some of those paragraphs talk about that you could use an 8414 test
02:30:00 test so i'm not sure as i sit here whether paragraphs 12.5 12.6 and 12.7 are the paragraphs which talk about it being of limited combustibility or whether they are the paragraphs which talk about it
02:30:13 paragraphs which talk about it being able to have an 8414 test well take it from me that paragraph or section 12.7 relates to materials of limited combustibility that's what it that's what it deals with
02:30:25 that's what it that's what it deals with okay it sounds to me as if that didn't strike you as at the time as a strange reference given that on any view k15
02:30:33 view k15 was never going to be and never was a material of limited combustibility um i have to say i i don't remember because
02:30:42 because i'm not sure whether we would have looked at that and said okay it's saying that it can comply with approved document b and form the the um the view that that was because it had been tested to 8414
02:30:54 was because it had been tested to 8414 or whether we would have actually looked at it in the level of detail where we got out approved document b went to those paragraphs and said okay what's going on there you never did that i mean just to be clear
02:31:05 just to be clear what it's saying is that the product is classified as class naught and then goes on to say the product may therefore may be used in accordance with the provisions of etc
02:31:18 with the provisions of etc paragraph 12.7 did you make the link between the two and ask yourself how could it be that a bba certificate could say that because a product was classified as class naught it therefore
02:31:31 classified as class naught it therefore satisfied the provisions of paragraph 12.7 which was about limited combustibility i think we and i would have known enough to know that that was not correct right so did you therefore wonder um
02:31:43 right so did you therefore wonder um how kingspan's bba certificate could be remotely reliable
02:31:54 i think that we did view it as being unreliable i think that we did were confused as to how they had got generic wording in their bba certificate to say that it
02:32:05 in their bba certificate to say that it was
02:32:06 was or to imply that it was acceptable on you know pretty much any and didn't i think we were surprised that it didn't contain wording clarifying further
02:32:17 wording clarifying further that the test would apply to a single um test his system and that it wasn't clearer
02:32:26 clearer in that respect um but i'm not sure i would have looked at it and cross-referenced those paragraphs and said
02:32:32 and said okay it seems to be getting confused between
02:32:36 between class 0 which is only to do with cladding panels and insulation so i'm not sure i would have formed that for you at the time right um can we look at paragraph 48 of
02:32:49 right um can we look at paragraph 48 of your witness statement at page 16. you say there
02:32:58 the discrepancies and lack of transparency in the record of the cladding used in the kingspan publications also suggested to our team that they had undertaken and passed the test using one type of board and laterally referenced the additional
02:33:10 and laterally referenced the additional use of other types of cladding with their product in their marketing materials p e jr and rw collectively wanted to include a panel on the celetex test rig that could and would be used by the market as it was tested
02:33:23 by the market as it was tested did you think at the time that if in fact
02:33:28 fact kingspan had undertaken and passed the test using one type of board and then referenced the additional use of other types of cladding within their product
02:33:35 product with their product in their marketing materials that that would have been a legitimate approach
02:33:43 no i think there was an awareness amongst those individuals including myself and the business that actually that was
02:33:54 actually that was not a correct approach to take so i don't want to put words in your mouth mr hayes but did you take the view at the time that kingspan were using the test that they'd
02:34:06 were using the test that they'd undertaken and then essentially misusing it to market k-15 into a wider set of applications than was legitimate yes that is the view
02:34:19 than was legitimate yes that is the view that i formed i think that is a view that was formed over the course of the project because we explained earlier how when we were looking at
02:34:30 looking at kings band's literature it didn't that view of
02:34:34 view of their doing something wrong was not immediately formed it was how are they doing this do they have extra testing have they got field of applications reports and engineers
02:34:44 engineers judgments which allows their product to be used
02:34:48 be used and i think it the view was formed over the course of the project that no they probably didn't have those things and therefore
02:35:01 they have managed to find some way to get their products accepted without the correct documentation to support it does it come to this that
02:35:13 support it does it come to this that by the end or towards the end of 2013 you had done enough work to form the view and tell me if this isn't fair to form the view that the market
02:35:23 market into which you were you wanted to launch what became rs 5000 had been skewed by kingspan's marketing literature yes i want to turn to the design of the
02:35:35 yes i want to turn to the design of the february 2014 test and there's a as a run-up to this in chronological terms we we discussed earlier very briefly the meeting on the 4th of november 2013.
02:35:47 meeting on the 4th of november 2013. do you remember attending such a meeting with mr roper mr evans and mr warren yes i do and we can just to confirm this look at the document
02:35:57 document which convenes that meeting ceo403011 please
02:36:06 just to confirm that that's the invitation to the meeting and and the attendees at that meeting is that right
02:36:15 yes now we can see that one of the attendees was craig chambers do you remember whether he was there i'm sure that he was you remember him being there i definitely remember him being there
02:36:26 definitely remember him being there right
02:36:27 right let's look at the slides then from the meeting which mr roper told us that he prepared cel 30119
02:36:39 and i'd like just to scroll gently through the first eight slides just to set the context and refresh your recollection of about what was at the presented at the
02:36:51 about what was at the presented at the meeting
02:36:52 meeting if we can just turn to page two you can see there's a proof document b and section 12.5 if we turn to page three we can see that here's a description of bs8414 in both
02:37:05 here's a description of bs8414 in both of its
02:37:06 of its formats and the principle if we go to page four we can see that here is br135 a reference to that it's a very basic data about that but but says in the
02:37:17 data about that but but says in the first bullet point a large scale test if we go to page five we can see the diagram taken from annex b about uh high-rise buildings and fire
02:37:28 about uh high-rise buildings and fire propagation up the exterior if we can go to page six we see ventilated facade market and some figures there rigid board market estimated at five to seven
02:37:39 market estimated at five to seven million there in the last bullet point and then in the next slide page seven external cladding materials in a long list and you can see there the fourth one down is aluminium composite
02:37:50 one down is aluminium composite uh and underneath that to steel and then zinc stone fiber cement building boards carrier boards
02:37:59 the last bullet point there but building boards carrier boards did you actually come across yourself come across those being used as an external cutting material on a building no let's say no
02:38:11 on a building no let's say no can you help us as to your understanding about the order in which these cladding materials are set out does it go from the most common to the least common
02:38:21 common or is it just random do you think i believe it's probably random all right but i didn't i mean i think john put these together but um i'm not aware that it doesn't look to
02:38:32 um i'm not aware that it doesn't look to me like there's any kind of order to that
02:38:34 that right and then if we look at page eight slide eight these are the cladding manufacturers and then at slide nine we've got kingsman k15 and we have five
02:38:46 we've got kingsman k15 and we have five bullet points there tested to bs eight four one four part one on to masonry non-combustible substrate required bba certificate labc approval fire barrier testing
02:39:01 and if we go on to slide 14 we can then see five options did you think that these were alternative routes
02:39:12 these were alternative routes that you thought celetex might be able to follow when i say you i mean you plural at the meeting
02:39:21 yes yes and the first one is worst case scenario
02:39:24 scenario with field of application report what did you understand by worst case scenario
02:39:31 well
02:39:34 i think the most likely explanation for that is
02:39:37 that is that worst case means
02:39:44 cladding with the worst performance
02:39:49 so you would take you would try to find the worst performing cladding that you could that you might still pass with right let's see
02:40:01 might still pass with right let's see and then use an fo ar with it yes i follow and the second option is system route limit scope requires re-education was there any discussion at the meeting about
02:40:11 about what re-education was needed
02:40:17 so this is we have to be careful because actually i don't remember the meeting that
02:40:21 that well but i've seen i heard and heard so many things that i'm just trying to limit myself to what i knew at the time but thank you i i think it refers to
02:40:34 refers to going out and telling the market kingspan are wrong everything you've been doing is is wrong actually you shouldn't have been using those products of all different types of
02:40:46 products of all different types of cladding you should have been uh using that only exactly as it was tested
02:40:51 tested right and was a review taken at the meeting
02:40:55 meeting as best you recall about whether that was really realistic i don't remember that i'm sure that there would have been conversation around that as it's a talking point on
02:41:07 around that as it's a talking point on that
02:41:07 that slide um
02:41:12 i have to be careful to try and you know what i remember at the time um
02:41:19 i would say that if there was conversation it would be extremely unlikely
02:41:23 unlikely that any of the people at that meeting in terms of decision makers which is paula robert or craig would have wanted to go down that route and then we have two bullet points test
02:41:34 and then we have two bullet points test and launch test and launch with or without
02:41:36 without bba and nebc and then opt out of eight opt out of above 18 meters was there any serious discussion at the meeting about whether you should opt out of the 18-meter project
02:41:51 i don't remember very well um i think that but possibly rob may have given the
02:42:02 but possibly rob may have given the opinion
02:42:03 opinion that said the tech should either launch with a system and say this is the only system in which you can use our products
02:42:12 products or we should opt out
02:42:19 but i think that craig and paul were keen to move the project forward
02:42:28 and to at least proceed to do some testing
02:42:33 testing i'm not sure if a clear
02:42:36 decision was made as to whether how it would be marketed later um i i'm sure there's a reference somewhere to craig chambers saying well let's get a pass and worry about it
02:42:49 let's get a pass and worry about it later
02:42:49 later right you say you're sure there's a reference
02:42:57 which is where it says something like craig is of the opinion that this is not worth worrying about until
02:43:04 until we have a test pass right so so was the upshot of the me well you tell me what was the upshot of the meeting what decision was made as a result of this meeting about
02:43:16 made as a result of this meeting about each of these options
02:43:20 i'm not sure that a decision was made at that meeting about any of those options i think a decision was made about what would happen next which is to say that celetex would go forward
02:43:32 that celetex would go forward with an 8414 test and i think there's maybe another slide which is coming where it shows the the the choices of cladding panels which might be selected and i think a decision
02:43:44 might be selected and i think a decision was made
02:43:45 was made that the eight millimeter fiber cement panel option would be selected right and indeed if you go to page 15 slide 15 we can see three
02:43:56 to page 15 slide 15 we can see three choices there acm panel with improved barrier system less than 50 a2 panel with standard barrier 80 cement particle with standard barrier 90 percent
02:44:07 percent so having shown you that you said are you saying the decision was made that eight millimeters five of cement panel option would be selected and namely option 2 82 right that's correct
02:44:19 namely option 2 82 right that's correct and the 80 was that the 80 past chance yes i believe so right
02:44:32 chance yes i believe so right and is it right that at this stage celetex wanted to use a cladding that was representative of what people would actually use in practice
02:44:41 yes that's correct in other words priced reasonably as aesthetic as possible and not too thick i think you say that in your statement
02:44:53 at this point i think there is a a strong view that censex don't want to go down the same route as kingspan and they want to use a panel which is representative of what
02:45:05 representative of what of people might use and to to market that
02:45:09 that openly
02:45:13 and
02:45:19 you say paragraph 48 of your statement you just go to that please at page 16.
02:45:29 as we've seen i think before there was a collective desire to use a panel that could and would be used as the market as it was tested i've shown you that did that include or exclude decorative what
02:45:40 that include or exclude decorative what what
02:45:41 what mr egginton described as decorative cladding
02:45:46 i think that malia turnet would be described as decorative cladding i think it would meet that definition yes and i think that when john is
02:45:57 yes and i think that when john is talking about decorative cladding he might be looking at it from his own perspective which are the materials that he's involved in which is high pressure laminates and an aluminium right
02:46:09 aluminium right but i think that the view was formed by celetex
02:46:13 celetex that there were types of decorative cladding if you like or representative claddings which actually could uh pass an 8414 test so so uh your
02:46:25 uh pass an 8414 test so so uh your is your recollection that you decided to use eight millimeter mali eternity which was in fact used at the first test despite sotex reservations as expressed to you about the prospects of passing with decorative cladding
02:46:37 with decorative cladding yes um and i think that's that slide which says she says 80 shows that actually demonstrates that there was some confidence in that selection yes i see
02:46:50 confidence in that selection yes i see if we stick with your statement paragraph 49 please and go over the page i just want to ask you
02:46:57 you about something you say there and you say
02:47:01 say at the top of the page considering all of this it was collectively decided with pe making the ultimate sign off that we would use eight millimeters of maori eternity fibre cement cladding which was common in the marketplace
02:47:13 marketplace and at an a2 reaction had a good fire rating this would allow us to be transparent with the list of materials used in the text now you say with pe making the ultimate sign-off
02:47:26 sign-off was that because pe paul evans was ultimately the decision-maker in respect of the first test and what should
02:47:38 of the first test and what should comprise the components in the first test
02:47:43 yes and that doesn't mean that paul would have chosen those components um but it means that
02:47:52 that ultimately he would have to agree to
02:47:56 and make a decision on what would happen next and what they would be so obviously lots of different options were
02:48:06 were were spoken about people had an opportunity to present the view but as i said before my understanding is that
02:48:14 that paul would ultimately make all final decisions as to what would happen yes you say he would make all final decisions as to what would happen that was that's your general
02:48:26 happen that was that's your general yes view knowledge evidence about his role
02:48:29 role that's right i think john was closely supervised by a thing i don't think john had any autonomous decision making process and they would work very closely together um and i said before the contact between
02:48:42 um and i said before the contact between individuals is not just based upon meetings for example we see here's a meeting and here's a record of a meeting i mean they're virtually on top of each other
02:48:51 other in their proximity right and so they would converse informally a lot i think we're going to come to look a little bit more closely at that in due course mr hayes just on this paragraph
02:49:03 mr hayes just on this paragraph in the last sentence of paragraph 49 there at the top of the page you say this would allow us to be transparent with the list of materials used in the test and it's right isn't it that this
02:49:14 and it's right isn't it that this transparency was important because anybody who wanted to rely on a br 135 classification would need to know exactly what the tested system was wouldn't they that's correct and is it right to say that you saw such transparency as a
02:49:27 that you saw such transparency as a positive factor which would distinguish celetex from kingspan yes and that's because i think you'd confirmed earlier that there was a view within celetex at the time that the kingspan approach was
02:49:39 kingspan approach was not transparent to put it at its lowest absolutely correct and the celotex did not want to copy that approach no they didn't at this point in time they didn't at this point in time that qualification is an interesting one
02:49:51 qualification is an interesting one do you mean that at a point later cellotex
02:49:55 cellotex did start to want to copy that approach yes now we'll come to it but in a sentence can you tell me when
02:50:07 well from my perspective it was after the second successful test to 8414. you mean the second test which was successful
02:50:18 second test which was successful yes there was only one successful test i beg your pardon i misspoke no that's that i just want to be absolutely accurate yeah so may 2014. at some point after that things um
02:50:34 would go wrong right
02:50:42 just focusing on the eight millimeters of malia turn it at the time it was selected
02:50:47 selected that's a cement or cementitious fiberboard isn't it yes did you think at the time that that was genuinely representative of what was commonly used in the market as a cladding panel
02:51:01 yes i did and although i didn't have an idea of
02:51:05 idea of how much of the market it made up i think i had an understanding that it would
02:51:12 would be it would limit the product in some ways
02:51:16 ways because if you have lots of different cladding panels available on the market and they have lots of different fire ratings and you are going to have one in your test which has
02:51:29 test which has a pretty good fire rating that is going to limit you uh to what you could use and and i think there was still this
02:51:40 and and i think there was still this idea that a field of applications report would open that up and that there would be the possibility of using fiber cement but also anything else which was at least as good as that at least as
02:51:52 was at least as good as that at least as good in
02:51:53 good in five performances yes let's turn to the february
02:51:57 february 2014 test you attended that test i think didn't you that's correct at watford yes at the bre burn hall there yeah and that system that was tested included an eight millimeter
02:52:08 an eight millimeter marley alternate nutura cladding that's correct
02:52:12 correct is it right that the fire was extinguished early at 28 minutes because the
02:52:16 the 26 minutes in fact because the flames were extending past the top of the rig that's correct now as you say in your statement of paragraph 54
02:52:27 54 if we can just go over the page
02:52:35 in the first line there you say myself jrp and rw did not understand at the time that flames out of the top of the structure would constitute a test failure
02:52:47 now i just want to show you what mr roper says in his statement and just ask you about the difference can we go to
02:52:55 five cel301052 at page twelve please
02:53:02 i'd like to look at paragraph five point twenty seven in the middle of the page there he says he attended the test and in the second line the test did not go well and was stopped after 26 minutes
02:53:14 go well and was stopped after 26 minutes there was an obvious failure as the flames reached the top of the test rig before the specified time so he says it was obvious you say that you didn't understand at the time that flames out of the top
02:53:25 at the time that flames out of the top of the rig would constitute a test failure
02:53:27 failure can you account for the difference in understanding between you so i can only speak for my own recollection but my memory is that the
02:53:41 primary
02:53:46 result that you have to get is outlined in br135
02:53:49 in br135 and it's to do with the temperature rise of the thermocouples but i think that that temperature rise is limited to the first 15 minutes so it says you must not raise
02:54:01 minutes so it says you must not raise the temperature by x within the first 15 minutes of the test and so even though the test is stopped at 26 minutes you have the potential that actually you
02:54:12 you have the potential that actually you have would have met that criteria so my memory is that there was confusion between all of us including john and rob
02:54:23 between all of us including john and rob that we weren't sure whether just because the test had been stopped at 26 minutes which was early whether we might still be able to pass the test i see so it
02:54:34 be able to pass the test i see so it wasn't obvious to you that the fact that the
02:54:37 the test had been stopped at 26 minutes was a sure
02:54:40 a sure sign that it had failed no right now you say phil clark was present do you remember him saying anything about what he could see
02:54:58 i don't really i know that he would have said that the test is stopped because the flames are extending above the top of
02:55:05 of the rig um but i don't think he explained that explicitly that that meant it had failed right
02:55:12 right so i think i've got your thoughts at the time at least that you didn't think that the flames extending past the top of the rig
02:55:18 rig necessarily meant that the test had failed no although i know now that that is
02:55:23 is is not correct
02:55:26 now mr roper uh goes on to say paragraph 528
02:55:37 uh that in the second line there that phil told me he says phil told me he shared rob's view that the insulation had performed relatively well but the the in the cladding panel had cracked and that once fire had entered
02:55:48 cracked and that once fire had entered the cavity there was not much that could be done
02:55:51 be done do you remember being party to that conversation no i don't remember that um i think that i don't think it was a formal conversation where everybody goes off
02:56:02 conversation where everybody goes off into a meeting room i think that people are standing around um so you've got the test rig you've got guys who are sort of making sure the fire's out um i
02:56:13 sort of making sure the fire's out um i think that um david and perino they're from ifc and so you've got people standing in sort of different sorry different groups in different places so i don't remember
02:56:24 places so i don't remember being party to that conversation right let me show you paragraph 529 mr ripper says following the end of the test rob
02:56:32 test rob ian cooper phil and i uh note that you're not referred to there had a discussion whilst at the bre testing center phil said that he had seen worse fails and suggested that celetex might want to
02:56:44 suggested that celetex might want to strengthen the outside of the test rig in order to counteract the cracking of the malia turnip panels i told phil that the malia turnip panels were also available in 12 millimeter in addition to the eight millimeter panels
02:56:55 addition to the eight millimeter panels used in the test and phil responded that he thought that thickening the panels to 12 millimeters might suffice just pausing there were you party to that conversation or did you know about
02:57:06 that conversation or did you know about it
02:57:07 it not that i remember right and he goes on phil also
02:57:10 phil also joked that celetex could use a six millimeter cement particle board like kingspan again were you parted or privy to that discussion or did you hear that about that i don't remember that or remember
02:57:21 that i don't remember that or remember offering that comment do you remember whether the bre gave any advice in relation to the design of a test that might pass that you were aware of at that time
02:57:33 i think that john later told me or about the comment from phil about that the 12 millimeter board might be enough
02:57:43 enough um to make it pass um and i'm sure that view was formed that the
02:57:50 the test had done pretty well that it was seen to be a very close failure um and that's a small change such as the
02:58:02 um and that's a small change such as the addition of 12 millimeters thickness would be enough to put over the line right mr chairman i've got four or five more questions before and coming to the end of this topic
02:58:13 and coming to the end of this topic would you rather finish the topic now i would rather finish the topic now if that's all right with the panel and with the witness yeah right yes you're happy to go on for another five minutes or so absolutely yeah please do thank you yes
02:58:26 absolutely yeah please do thank you yes thank you mr chairman now after the test you drove mr roper back to the office do you remember that um i think that rob was driving um and then right someone was in the
02:58:38 um and then right someone was in the passenger seat and one of us was in the back right okay do you remember that mr roper called
02:58:43 called paul evans on route i do and to tell him the result of the test yeah do you remember from your side of the hearing what he told mr evans um i think i'm correct
02:58:56 mr evans um i think i'm correct that the call was on speakerphone so you could hear both sides of the conversation yes can we go to paragraph 54 of your statement on page 18.
02:59:07 you say in the third line we discussed the fact that we felt as though the fact that the test had been stopped before the 30 minute mark suggested the rig had not passed but
02:59:19 rig had not passed but that if the rig could pass the thermocouple data it might just pass was it you who said that no um i believe actually it was primarily a
02:59:31 um i believe actually it was primarily a conversation between uh john and and paul right i think the bit about the thermocouples might have been discussed in the car before that call i see that's before the call and then
02:59:43 i see that's before the call and then you go on to say paragraph 55 jr trained telephone pe from the cars he wanted to find out how the first test had gone
02:59:49 had gone that he would be pe there he seemed extremely keen to find out from the bre as soon as possible what the outcome of the first test was there was a lot of emotion from jr and pe related to the first test result
03:00:01 pe related to the first test result why do you say that i think it was very clear from the conversation um paul was sounded very disappointed that it had passed but also he was telling john okay
03:00:13 but also he was telling john okay you know do you think it might have passed
03:00:16 passed when do you think we can find out okay you need to get on to you need to get onto phil you need to get into the beer and find out right when you say a lot of emotion can you just be a bit more um so
03:00:29 um so um very very fast talking um you know when peop when people speak you can hear their sort of tone goes up and becomes
03:00:40 and becomes it becomes higher um there's a lot of quick
03:00:43 quick backwards and forwards he's he he's expressing um that he you know we need to find out as as quickly as possible and also hope as in you know so you think we might have passed
03:00:54 think we might have passed you so there's a chance that we've passed right okay we yeah we need to explore that we need to get on to them okay thank you you've brought that to life very well can i just ask you to look at paragraph 56 at the bottom of the page
03:01:05 paragraph 56 at the bottom of the page you say
03:01:06 you say following pressure applied from jr on the be on the bre to inform us of the first test result pc telephone jr confirming that we had failed the first test on the basis of the fire emerging from
03:01:17 on the basis of the fire emerging from the top of the structure my involvement in the wider discussion that ensued following the failure was limited uh
03:01:27 when was the telephone call from phil clark to
03:01:31 clark to mr roper do you remember um so i never witnessed a telephone call i think it would have been something that i
03:01:39 i um was told about possibly by john um my impression was that it was fairly quickly
03:01:45 quickly after the first test or after the date of the first test possibly within a couple of days right i see so this is something john roper passed on to you but you weren't
03:01:57 roper passed on to you but you weren't on that call no i see
03:02:02 no i see thank you very much mr chairman is that a convenient moment i've come to this yes is that suits you does it yes it's good
03:02:08 good we're going to have a break now um mr hayes so we can all get some lunch we'll come back at five past two please and
03:02:15 and again i have to ask you please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it while you're out of the room thank you all right thank you very much
03:02:35 thank you five folks too please
03:03:15 you