Dr Lane provides expert evidence on the cladding system, including analysis of the BBA certificate, fire performance of cassette vs riveted systems, insulation compliance, and cavity barriers.
00:01:53 you
00:02:56 [Music]
00:03:20 but I'd like to learn yeah feeling refreshed oh yeah thank you good thank you yes it's great thank you so we were on the subject of the BBA certificate and where do you want me to
00:03:32 certificate and where do you want me to turn to so just to set the scene for a moment so in your original report you looked briefly at this and then in appendix oh we now have a much more
00:03:43 appendix oh we now have a much more detailed explanation as to why you don't think that 2008 BBA certificate is valid for the cassette system what I want to do is just pull up the certificate itself
00:03:54 itself yeah and just just look at some key points because it is very detailed what you've done in appendix oh and I just have to get the headline points across so this is the BB a certificate from 2008 yeah and if we look at the first
00:04:09 2008 yeah and if we look at the first page can we possibly make it a little bit bigger always that yes that's helpful and you note I think that they're heading and is headed Raina
00:04:21 that they're heading and is headed Raina bond architectural wall cladding panels are that correct yes it is and then I want to look at page 3 of this certificate to start with which is yeah
00:04:33 certificate to start with which is yeah yeah and it's the figure one the diagram at the bottom yeah so we touched on this earlier and and I think this is a helpful diagram I hope to try and
00:04:44 helpful diagram I hope to try and explain the difference between a riveted system and a cassette oh yeah can you just help the chairman to just by reference these two drawings explain what the difference is between the two
00:04:55 what the difference is between the two yeah so a riveted system and a cassette system are both made with a flat panel and the difference is to do with the end
00:05:06 and the difference is to do with the end the end shape of the flat panel so for a riveted system as you can see here on the left the flat panel is left as is as such as cut into pieces and it's riveted
00:05:19 such as cut into pieces and it's riveted onto a support structure the cassette system has another piece of work done to the flat panel it's shaped into its like the cover of that box there it's shaped
00:05:32 the cover of that box there it's shaped into
00:05:33 into a piece like that and they can have all different depths of the box top and on the are conic websites it gives very
00:05:44 the are conic websites it gives very detailed information on standard sizings for shaping the cassettes and then the cassettes can be fixed in different ways to a buildin they can be
00:05:58 different ways to a buildin they can be hung they can be screwed they can be riveted it looks as there are Connick contemplate that in either of the systems there will be rails fitted to
00:06:10 systems there will be rails fitted to the facade of the building to carry the panels that's correct I the rivet the panel to the flange of the rail yes or you hang the cassette into the pen used
00:06:24 you hang the cassette into the pen used to make onto boats themselves carried in those exactly exactly so in the channel on the right you'll see there is another
00:06:35 on the right you'll see there is another brackets yeah with a boat in it and in this picture the cassette system has a little the thing on the edge on the top
00:06:46 little the thing on the edge on the top can slot in on to that boat yes thank you that's yeah but but but a cassette is about its shape
00:06:57 is about its shape yeah so you're shaping the flat panel and just to be clear and in very general terms it's important isn't it no the distinction between the riveted and the cassette in terms of their ability to
00:07:11 cassette in terms of their ability to resist the spread of fire there absolutely testing yes so what I've what I've learned because of looking at the test evidence provided in this enquiry is that the when the flat panel is in a
00:07:25 is that the when the flat panel is in a cassette shape and hung as a cassette is it performs differently under fire compared to a flat panel which is
00:07:36 compared to a flat panel which is riveted and what are the differences a much poorer performance in fire and actually it's probably worth me mentioning something I did hear professor Bisbee yesterday refer to the
00:07:49 professor Bisbee yesterday refer to the French tests we have very detailed two test reports reaction to fire test reports and I thought it worth mentioning that the riveted system as you know has been classified in those
00:08:01 you know has been classified in those tests done in France well when they tested the cassette shape and the they had to stop the test because there was such a high level of heating behind the
00:08:14 such a high level of heating behind the cassette occurred in the test and when you put the two photos the riveted system photo and the cassette system photo side-by-side they almost look identical but one gets a classification
00:08:26 identical but one gets a classification and the other cannot get a classification of the cassette because it burnt so much in that test yeah all right thank you yeah so just coming back to this is certificate and I just want
00:08:38 to this is certificate and I just want to briefly establish the key reasons why you've rejected it as a valid test so one of the points you make is that the certificate is potentially misleading and it purports to relate to all rain
00:08:49 and it purports to relate to all rain Aban architectural wall plat cladding panels of which you find that there are 14 times is that right yes so i thought i i've used the word factually incorrect not not mislead and in in my report
00:09:02 not not mislead and in in my report yeah and it says on the front cover architectural wall cladding panels but for example you know i haven't seen any cassette that has got the performance
00:09:16 cassette that has got the performance this agreement certificate as far so because the most important thing about the certificate is the performance it refers to which on the front which is classed north
00:09:27 classed north yes okay and so what you've found is that the certificate relates to three types of panels but in fact only one of those panels referred to in the certificate is class naught is that
00:09:38 certificate is class naught is that correct that's correct yeah and that is a rana bond f r ACM metallic gray p vdf panel is that correct
00:09:51 vdf panel is that correct there are relevant there is relevant test evidence for that fire retardant core panel yep I was going to ask you what oh sorry
00:10:03 going to ask you what oh sorry f stands for okay yep well so I think it stands for fire retardant yeah and it's referring to the core of the panel but
00:10:16 referring to the core of the panel but it FR isn't something that's defined anywhere as such so i assume it means some fire retardants have been added to the core and so the product is being
00:10:27 the core and so the product is being called or named a fire retardant product yes and just to be absolutely clear is that the same kind of panel that we have with a PE core at ground floor tower my
00:10:38 with a PE core at ground floor tower my understanding of the core are Grenville is that it is PE but they call it a standard core so not the air park it is not the FR cool yeah and the BBA have
00:10:51 not the FR cool yeah and the BBA have confirmed in response to questions from the inquiry the certificate was based on four product test report yeah so be very useful if they could come up on the screen and i wasn't going to take you to
00:11:02 screen and i wasn't going to take you to okay yeah but the point i wanted to ask you was that the certificate itself doesn't actually identify that the test
00:11:13 doesn't actually identify that the test reports which under underpin it does it doesn't actually identify in on the face of the certificate what the test reports are does it know does not know you've had to ask for those and we've had to
00:11:24 had to ask for those and we've had to get yes exactly yeah do you think it should have identified those testicles and a in my as a designer myself or someone who has to sign off on buildings
00:11:35 someone who has to sign off on buildings myself which i've done a lot in the past yeah I very much wish now it had and I certainly think that such certificates should now come with the relevant test
00:11:48 should now come with the relevant test evidence so one can establish for oneself if that certificate is applicable to the construction form you are taking responsibility for yep so for
00:11:59 are taking responsibility for yep so for those key reasons but for all so the detailed reasons you've set out an appendix you have rejected that test yeah so it's valid for grant for town yes so at Grand Vitara specifically we
00:12:11 yes so at Grand Vitara specifically we have a cassette system and I have seen no test evidence where a cassette system performs to the requirements of approved document b we have a standard core and I
00:12:24 document b we have a standard core and I have no test evidence to support a standard core panel with the sorry with the performances set out and diagram for T of approved document b yeah and as we
00:12:37 T of approved document b yeah and as we established earlier just before the lunch break the certificates you've seen suggest that the rain upon PE 55 cassette system is European class II that's what you see yes for the break
00:12:48 that's what you see yes for the break yeah so the test report yeah I've not I've read yet show me that yeah I want to move on from this now unless there's anything more you wanted to say about it it's nothing so as to the manner in
00:13:01 it's nothing so as to the manner in which the rain upon 55 PE was fixed and the exposed PE filler and core can we look at B la s60 8 at page 59 figure
00:13:15 look at B la s60 8 at page 59 figure 8.65 yes sir I wanted to turn this up because we looked at quite a lot of exposed edges yesterday with Professor
00:13:27 exposed edges yesterday with Professor Bisbee exposed edges in relation to their spandrels but here we're looking
00:13:38 their spandrels but here we're looking at the column rainscreen panels is that correct that's what the diagram seems to suggest yeah yeah and is it right what you're drawing attention to here is a number of exposed PE course edges of
00:13:51 number of exposed PE course edges of those panels yes and I think we discussed earlier is your evidence that there are considerable risks posed by this particular exposed PE in the
00:14:03 this particular exposed PE in the installation because the P is is exposed
00:14:10 poses a risk yeah whether it's exposed or not yeah but obviously yeah I just you know I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over again but sorry
00:14:21 thing over and over again but sorry these small details are important and in the early stages of fire when there's a small you know a small fire when you're into you know a really large flame front
00:14:34 into you know a really large flame front I cannot say that's something like an exposed core is truly significant to that point relative to anything else yeah okay but yes a crowd filter there
00:14:46 yeah okay but yes a crowd filter there are very met there were very many exposed lines of polyethylene yep yep I want to turn to talk about
00:14:58 want to turn to talk about mountings and fixings and is it right that you also consider that the Rana bond 55 PE certificates for the cassette system which do exist wouldn't be valid
00:15:09 system which do exist wouldn't be valid anyway because your view is that the test condition should actually accurately replicate the end-use condition is that correct okay so I just can we just break that down yeah I think
00:15:20 can we just break that down yeah I think did you say the test certificates I said that the the reign of on 55 PE certificates for the cassette system would not be valid because your view is
00:15:32 would not be valid because your view is that the test condition must accurately would replicate the end-use condition certainly yeah yes that's correct yeah yeah and so you've noted one of the things you've noted is that the panel
00:15:43 things you've noted is that the panel shapes and the fixing method which was used at Granville varies from the standard iconic details is that correct okay so that's it so separate point yep
00:15:55 okay so that's it so separate point yep okay is that the cassette the box top if you will our grand filter is particularly deep and at the moment I
00:16:07 particularly deep and at the moment I can only look at the our Connick website about this it gives certain depth and I have them it's in my report somewhere if we want to get into the detail and and
00:16:18 we want to get into the detail and and the the the depth of return of grandfa is is much deeper than those yep so it's not they're not the standard but is that about the fixing method what I was specifically asking about was a
00:16:30 was specifically asking about was a fixing method from the panel's you say it varies from the standard iconic details no I think we're talking across purposes here so that's what I'm trying to be very clear about yeah the the
00:16:43 to be very clear about yeah the the death of return is different yeah the fixing difference is the the cassette is hung on at Granville Tower and that is
00:16:55 hung on at Granville Tower and that is that different from the standard iconic details no our are Connick have a hung detailed but they do appear to have some kind of screw or rivet as well
00:17:07 kind of screw or rivet as well yep okay yes of return yeah in your view likely to be significant well yes yes I think it is actually because and I don't know if you can remember earlier when we
00:17:19 know if you can remember earlier when we were talking about the the PIR and that you know just kind of containment function so the cover of the box if you will as acting like it's like a container right so if it's relatively
00:17:33 container right so if it's relatively deep you're heating up a very nice space and I think the CTS TB test reports are very interesting to compare for that reason to that when you have this shape
00:17:45 reason to that when you have this shape the test has to be stopped because the heating effects are so different so early yeah so it seems to be significant yeah and what I'm getting at is that can
00:17:59 yeah and what I'm getting at is that can you just explain why what what might appear to be like in significant differences in fact are potentially very important when it comes to fire safety so that they might invalidate a
00:18:10 so that they might invalidate a certificate yeah I think you okay you highlight a number of parts of an approved document b as to which stress that these different yes are important
00:18:22 that these different yes are important when you're looking at test evidence okay I understand what you mean you know I think in different parts of my report so for doors for the cladding and the importance is the word relative
00:18:34 and the importance is the word relative what you have to provide is relevant test evidence and I think there is all sorts of places where it's explained that you can have a material with all
00:18:46 that you can have a material with all different performance rankings okay it'd be the same material but I have a totally different reaction to fire classification as a function of what's behind it and how it's attached to the
00:19:01 behind it and how it's attached to the material behind us and so it's the system or the assembly is really important so as a designer I cannot choose a material and ignore the
00:19:14 choose a material and ignore the construction context that I'm going to place that material in yeah okay because it changes its fire performance either better or worse it works both ways can
00:19:27 better or worse it works both ways can we just look at one example of that you stress that this is emphasizing a number pieces of guidance yeah let's look at a proof document B itself okay find the gray I plan to say yes of course
00:19:38 gray I plan to say yes of course see how g50 is two to four at one one one nine
00:19:55 so the bit I want to take you to is first of all at the bottom of that first column note one there's that very last bit of text under note one the bottom so
00:20:07 bit of text under note one the bottom so I think so there we see it says different forms of construction codes and different problems and opportunities for the provision of structural fire protection that's one aspect you draw attention to is that correct yes that's
00:20:20 attention to is that correct yes that's structural fire protection yeah and then note two is perhaps more relevant to what we were just discussing that the top column that's it on the next page so
00:20:32 top column that's it on the next page so that states any test evidence used to substantiate the fire resistance rating of a construction should be carefully checked to ensure it demonstrates compliance that is adequate and applicable to the intended use and then
00:20:44 applicable to the intended use and then it says this small differences in details such as fixing methods joints dimensions and the introduction of insulation materials may significantly affect the fire rating is that an
00:20:55 affect the fire rating is that an example of where designers are being warned about what you were just discussing it and that's in the context of fire resistance so now we're talking doors floors and walls okay but the same
00:21:07 doors floors and walls okay but the same principle applies for a reaction to fire if you go into the our town of BS four seven six and anyway so everywhere it's clear that the context of the product
00:21:20 clear that the context of the product you're selecting has to be understood yes and that's why the test evidence has to be relevant yes and relevant means to how it's going to be installed in that
00:21:32 how it's going to be installed in that building yes I think for the note you refer to BS 476 part 10 Yale in paragraph F one point one point eight yes we don't need to go to that but okay and you say that's making the point even
00:21:44 and you say that's making the point even more firmly about test everyday yeah but that's specifically relation to reaction to fire yes and reaction to fire is the performance relevant to the cladding at Grand Vitara so it's more relevant than
00:21:57 Grand Vitara so it's more relevant than this note here
00:22:01 installation can we move to the insulation and can we just orientate ourselves again and just work out what we're talking about be la-5 zeros four
00:22:12 we're talking about be la-5 zeros four nine five is an image of the insulation being installed on spandrel panels yeah so what figure is that in my report I think it's a standalone photograph yeah
00:22:23 think it's a standalone photograph yeah which has particularly clearly yeah you can see the guys actually installing the spandrel insulation is that correct
00:22:34 spandrel insulation is that correct they're actually taking it off oh sorry sorry annoying yeah they're actually taking it off yes but there are men there and they are touching those the insulation yes okay I think baby yeah
00:22:48 insulation yes okay I think baby yeah yeah and that is and that's one of the spandrel panels yeah and they were - you had two of those yes right they'll provide behind the spandrels at 80
00:23:01 provide behind the spandrels at 80 millimetres and thickness each that could that's correct and the key point is that the insulation is required to be of limited combust ability under pre document B so that's 80 or better that's
00:23:13 document B so that's 80 or better that's correct
00:23:14 correct and is your conclusion that none of it was correct yep so let's just explore that a little bit the Celotex RS 5000 insulation which was installed on the
00:23:26 insulation which was installed on the spandrel panels where we were just looking and the column panels yeah the test reports that you reviewed indicate that that achieved European Class D that's across that correct
00:23:38 that's across that correct yep and only those tests were done after the grand full fire yes yes and you've you've considered all of that relevant
00:23:50 you've considered all of that relevant test evidence in your appendix and E yes
00:24:00 yes and aside from so there was a BSA for one for test report carried out by the BRE in August 2014 yes which was
00:24:13 the BRE in August 2014 yes which was subsequently withdraw and we'll come to that in a moment in any event you say you would reject that because the the configuration of that test had a rain screen system with a marleah turn it
00:24:26 screen system with a marleah turn it semmen Tisha's board is that right years of the installation saying you've rejected that you also rejected a desktop so the a Trinette board is that
00:24:37 desktop so the a Trinette board is that ik is that external surface yeah instead of the panel it is the insulation as yes so it's it's not yeah so it's not the same absolutely Ralph or the tower so you can you can reject that in any event
00:24:49 you can you can reject that in any event correct you also say in Appendix II that you rejected a desktop assessment produced by Xavier Warrington far in May 2015 because none of the rainscreen cladding types were representative of
00:25:01 cladding types were representative of the ACP panels at Grant that's correct and xover also warned the reader about choosing a material with aluminium yes in their report and you also note that
00:25:14 in their report and you also note that that bs8 for one floor test report by the bre in august 2014 was subsequently withdrawn by Celotex that's correct correct and you've noted in your report
00:25:27 correct and you've noted in your report discrepancies between what's reported to have been tested and what in fact was tested is that correct yes and is that a topic that you think should be investigated further in phase 2 very much so now we touched on this earlier
00:25:42 much so now we touched on this earlier you note in your report that the Celotex Brasher requires the insulation boards to have a self-adhesive aluminium rainscreen foil tape over the joints of the insulation board do you interpret
00:25:56 the insulation board do you interpret that as meaning that all of the exposed edges of the insulation foam should have had that foil tape on them I don't know how you know I wouldn't know how to
00:26:08 how you know I wouldn't know how to interpret
00:26:09 interpret in the sense to me a face is different to a joint and they mentioned joint I think it would be useful if it said and the and the facings or any exposed edges
00:26:22 the and the facings or any exposed edges if that's what they required a designer to contemplate but at that time it just said joints is there any reason why one
00:26:34 said joints is there any reason why one would wish to tape the joints they're not take the cut we're gonna come to a photograph this photograph might help
00:26:45 photograph this photograph might help with that back ok so if we go to figure eight point three seven BL a s60 eight at page 35 and if we can zoom in thank
00:26:58 at page 35 and if we can zoom in thank you so is it right that what we're seeing there we're looking at the insulation on the columns on the right
00:27:09 insulation on the columns on the right hand side yes yeah is it right that we can see that for that that tape in between some of them yes you can yes we can yeah and to answer the Chairman's question do you think there might be a
00:27:20 question do you think there might be a reason why they've done that in those locations like I you know I have no idea why they say to just take joints and not tape exposed edges and I don't even know
00:27:34 tape exposed edges and I don't even know if they want the joint tape for fire reasons or not so that's a level of detailing you know I can't advise you on so we what we need to know is why the
00:27:49 so we what we need to know is why the tapers needed if it's relevant to fire are not when Celotex give that advice so it would be best if they explained that if that's okay yeah but what we can see
00:28:00 if that's okay yeah but what we can see is that they did have some kind of foil tape on the side but they seem to have been using it in that way but not as we can see to seal those edges exactly yeah
00:28:11 can see to seal those edges exactly yeah so the tape so when you have two cut edges together and you form a joint they seem to want to seal it and if you have a plain cottage not up
00:28:22 and if you have a plain cottage not up against another piece of Celotex board you you don't put any tape there yep it's also believed that kingspan cool firm K 15 was used yes on the building
00:28:36 firm K 15 was used yes on the building professor Bisbee's estimated that that might account for less than 7% of the total installation used on the building yes do you agree yes a relatively small amount yes yeah and is it right that
00:28:49 amount yes yeah and is it right that there achieved national class naught but that's not a method of determining limited combust ability is that right yes so class naught is to do with the surface yeah it's not an insulation test
00:29:03 at paragraph eight point nine point four of your report you've referred to the fact that in order to fix these insulation panels to the building they used stakes 180 millimeter stake yeah do
00:29:19 used stakes 180 millimeter stake yeah do you know and you may knock they're not sure it's something with faith stone whether those the type and the length of fixing was used consistently I don't I don't know that I yeah and do we know
00:29:30 don't know that I yeah and do we know the brand or no no I don't I don't actually know anything about them so again good for you nice piece of information to be given okay yeah the ally glazed window infill panels we've
00:29:42 ally glazed window infill panels we've already discussed these they're XPS extruded polystyrene and you say in your report that we think they made up about 13% of the surface between levels for
00:29:53 13% of the surface between levels for 223 of Graham for tower is that correct yeah and can you just clarify that you said earlier are these properly to be characterized as sandwich panels yes insulation core panels is that the
00:30:06 yes insulation core panels is that the phrase used yeah and I just wanted to you again to be clear what is the purpose of those panels to insulate the building yep
00:30:15 insulate that part of the building sorry yeah yeah and you say in your report that no formal test evidence for those panels has been disclosed to be inquiries that's correct
00:30:27 inquiries that's correct but you saved from some publicly available data sheets you think that might have been Class E is that right yeah well do you do the website where the product is is actually very clear yeah yeah and yes and you know that the
00:30:42 yeah yeah and yes and you know that the manufacturers panel systems limited you know they state that they don't achieve a national class naught on their website
00:30:52 when we're thinking about these kind of panels these sandwich panels these XPS panels is it relevant to consider what's said in appendix F of a DB about
00:31:04 said in appendix F of a DB about insulating court panels yes I think so yeah yes I think the approved document b is explicit about that type of panel can we just look at that so it's CLG 5 zeros
00:31:18 we just look at that so it's CLG 5 zeros 2 to 4 at page 1 4 7
00:31:33 so I think what we get is paragraph three in appendix F so this or part of
00:31:47 three in appendix F so this or part of it says when compared with other types of construction techniques these panels therefore comprise a unique combination of problems for firefighters including hidden fire spread within panels within thermoplastic core production of large
00:31:59 thermoplastic core production of large quantities of black toxic smoke loss of structure the integrity of panel rapid fire leading to flashover yeah is that the warning that you were just referring to yes because some buildings are formed
00:32:12 to yes because some buildings are formed almost entirely out of these panels for other other reasons to do with hygiene and other things there has been firefighter deaths and some other quite serious problems with them for I think
00:32:25 serious problems with them for I think it's nearly twenty years or so now yep cavity barriers yeah now I want to come to cavity barriers I think we'll cover this topic and then probably break if
00:32:37 this topic and then probably break if that if you're comfortable oh yes yeah yep and now we looked earlier at approved document b and where those are
00:32:48 approved document b and where those are required if you're following that guidance yep can we just look at that again and in fact it's in your report BL AF five zeros eleven page 69 I think at
00:33:02 AF five zeros eleven page 69 I think at eleven point two two which is the relevant extract so if we can zoom in on that diagram
00:33:14 so just to remind ourselves these karate barriers are required to close around openings in the external wall at the
00:33:25 openings in the external wall at the junction of fire resisting elements is that correct yes so again they're quite they're quite hard to see but could you just point them out so they're the little light gratings at the windows at
00:33:39 little light gratings at the windows at the floors yep and also where a compartment wall intersects with the external wall - and at the top of the wall to close off the
00:33:52 at the top of the wall to close off the cavity up here yes I want to do to emphasize that yeah in the cavity barriers that were installed on-site
00:34:04 barriers that were installed on-site with cider eyes are h25 open state cavity barriers is that right that's correct
00:34:09 correct can we just look at a picture of those can we go to be la s6 zeros at page 42 at figure eight point four six
00:34:29 so perhaps starting with the bottom picture so this is a picture from the side arised product literature and and can you just explain to us for those that you know aren't familiar with this
00:34:40 that you know aren't familiar with this what an open state cavity barrier is okay so could we go back to the a DB picture is that - yeah so in this
00:34:57 picture is that - yeah so in this diagram if you just look at one of the cavity barriers either after flora dine or out the window the concept is that feel fills the space formed between the
00:35:08 feel fills the space formed between the internal and external wall construction and it provides a fire resistant barrier fully between those two pieces those two
00:35:19 fully between those two pieces those two pieces of material okay so it's a full fulfil of the cavity in that location and that's what's meant by opens down so that's a cavity very yeah so now when
00:35:32 that's a cavity very yeah so now when you go to an open state cavity barrier the idea is is that in a normal condition it doesn't fill the cavity it leaves a gap and if we want to go to the
00:35:44 leaves a gap and if we want to go to the side arise picture now it leaves a gap for day-to-day reasons okay unfriend heat approaches the cavity barrier in
00:35:58 heat approaches the cavity barrier in behind that black layer is something called an inch in essence and an intumescent change a shape under heat and can move it it like expands and so
00:36:12 and can move it it like expands and so fills the gap that's there day to day so an open state cavity barrier is one that in a normal condition allows an opening in the cavity but once heat comes near
00:36:25 in the cavity but once heat comes near the intéressant it swells and fills that gap and so it was meant to form that full seal I mentioned
00:36:33 mentioned you were looking at the approved document b picture yep and can you just confirm these cavity barriers here that they're made of mineral wool is that right yes as I understand it and there's
00:36:44 right yes as I understand it and there's there'd be non combustible is that correct
00:36:47 correct they're non combustible I think that's what you say at eight point nine four yes
00:36:52 yes yes sorry okay yes yeah yeah so there'd be a a one maybe a one if they're non things they would be yeah and you go on in your report to note this is
00:37:03 in your report to note this is paragraphs eleven point two one twelve and eleven point two one 14 that the use of cavity barriers is potentially problematic with a rainscreen cladding system formed with an aluminium composite panel that's correct isn't it
00:37:16 composite panel that's correct isn't it yeah it's not potentially problematic it it is the entirely problematic let's look at your figures I want to take you through figures 10.17 to 10.19 can we
00:37:29 through figures 10.17 to 10.19 can we start with ten points set up I'm just sorry just slow down there please sorry I want to open up ten so ten point what 10.17 it's on page 19 of chapter yen so
00:37:44 10.17 it's on page 19 of chapter yen so this is a first of a sequence of figures that we have in your report yeah which is explaining I think the point you just made about why they are problematic in a
00:37:55 made about why they are problematic in a round screen system yeah so can you just talk yeah talk us through so I just want to again it's about going back to that diagram in approved document b and the
00:38:07 diagram in approved document b and the the interrupted the wall is meant to adequately resist the spread of fire and the cavity barrier is sealing that gap in the wall so the cavity barrier is
00:38:18 in the wall so the cavity barrier is there to spend the flame goes into the cavity it's stopping the flame from exiting one compartment to the nexus if you will okay a cavity barrier cannot
00:38:30 you will okay a cavity barrier cannot stop a flame in a cavity if the wall itself is burning so the very faint finding print Cybil is that the wall is not burning and the cavity barrier is stopping a
00:38:43 and the cavity barrier is stopping a flame in the cavity the cavity barrier cannot stop the whole wall from ball from burning in that position if we go
00:38:54 from burning in that position if we go to the next figure ten point eight 18 I think that's over the page here I think the point you're trying to make is about
00:39:06 the point you're trying to make is about you could have fire spread through the combustible panel itself is that correct yeah you're showing that with the red dotted line through the panel yeah so here at the cavity barrier you know it's
00:39:18 here at the cavity barrier you know it's it's beside an edge of the wall that it sounds confirmed so the flame front just just can quite simply pass by it yeah and then figure 10.19 which is on the
00:39:30 and then figure 10.19 which is on the same page just at the bottom yeah there I think the point you're making here is that potentially you get distortion of the panel's is that right you want to
00:39:41 the panel's is that right you want to just take this too lightly so because the panel is a lightweight structure rather than say amazing you know of classic masonry wall they can distort
00:39:52 classic masonry wall they can distort and produce a bigger gap which the intro message would then need to fill but I think that's a secondary issue compared
00:40:03 think that's a secondary issue compared to the primary issue of putting a cavity barrier in a rain screen tiling system which is quite simply the wall itself is burning and so the cavity barrier cannot
00:40:15 burning and so the cavity barrier cannot seal the cavity because in a way there is no cavity because the wall is burning and this distortion delamination
00:40:27 and this distortion delamination debonding that you're talking about do you think that would have that be any different if the cavity barriers have been placed at the base of the spandrel panels as opposed to where they were
00:40:38 panels as opposed to where they were which is kind of part way up I think it makes no difference whatsoever where the cavity
00:40:44 cavity our grandfather because they were put in a rainscreen cladding system formed of a polymeric core yep professor Bisbee at
00:40:56 polymeric core yep professor Bisbee at paragraph eight eight seven of his report says horizontal cavity barriers are considered important within rainscreen cladding systems particularly when combustible cladding insulation
00:41:07 when combustible cladding insulation products are used would you agree with that statement when combustible insulation properties that's what said I've no idea why he said that
00:41:18 said that professor torero do a distinction between what's going on in the cavity and what's going on outside and said potentially though they might slow the
00:41:31 potentially though they might slow the spread of smoke or fire and again oh I don't I don't know how could they do that if if the cavity barrier is jammed
00:41:42 that if if the cavity barrier is jammed into a combustible piece of insulation on the right-hand side and a polymeric you know a burning polymeric flame front on the left-hand side I don't know what
00:41:53 on the left-hand side I don't know what that cavity barrier can do in in that context cavity barriers are very effective in in in a wall that is burning on both sides
00:42:04 burning on both sides what about would it have been possible to to penetrate the rain screen system with cavity barriers at levels have you ever seen that done before I haven't but
00:42:15 ever seen that done before I haven't but the principle of trying to have some kind of break in the panel I think is probably what they mean I I just I I
00:42:27 probably what they mean I I just I I don't think that's that's not a mitigation measure that can mitigate the flame front that can be created from
00:42:38 flame front that can be created from from a polymeric rain screen panel and I suppose that even even if you could fit a barrier that ran from in this case the
00:42:51 a barrier that ran from in this case the concrete outer surface of the building right through the rain speeding penalty yes it wouldn't do much good if the panel's below were heavily alight it
00:43:03 panel's below were heavily alight it would simply bypass so things are getting into problems of parties installed what you know if the panel falls away if two panels burn and and also remember you still have flame
00:43:14 also remember you still have flame you're going to have heat you know you're going to reach a point where you need some kind of big kind of horizontal screen or something to try and stop the flame from getting from one floor to the
00:43:26 flame from getting from one floor to the next so I think it's entire entirely impossible actually yeah just a few more questions on this it what about downwards flame spread do you think a
00:43:40 downwards flame spread do you think a cavity barriers have any role there always do you mean trying to stop the flame front to angle yeah or stop melting and dripping material is I mean
00:43:52 melting and dripping material is I mean is that well it might you know if they were very well fitted and unsealed you might get a little pool of melted polyethylene on them but you know I just
00:44:03 polyethylene on them but you know I just those are you I consider they're all what I call little details that the flame front is roaring past it that's what happened to Grandpa yeah yeah what
00:44:14 what happened to Grandpa yeah yeah what about using concrete up stands to but the cavity barriers up against where was it where would the concrete job stance be yeah I mean I think if someone was to
00:44:28 be yeah I mean I think if someone was to answer that question if I don't know who wants to know that if that if there was a sketch yeah I'm happy yeah I don't know where the concrete would be and where the cavity barrier would be fixed yeah but I'm happy to answer that on a
00:44:40 yeah but I'm happy to answer that on a sketch somebody owes me a sketch yeah now in any event putting inside those those those areas you've explained in your report that you have some concerns of
00:44:49 of out the way in which the cider eyes cavity berries were installed at ground floor tower is that correct yeah and you know again I mean my job is to point things out so just to be absolutely
00:45:01 things out so just to be absolutely clear when I'm doing my own work we always categorize defects as you know major or minor primary or secondary so I think the installation quality of the
00:45:12 think the installation quality of the cider eyes cavity barriers is a defect but I would classify that as a minor defect if you know it was actually sorry just yeah but before we get to those defects and what I meant to say actually
00:45:25 defects and what I meant to say actually before we get to that is that you've noted that the the horizontal cavity barrier product that was used at Greenville tower was only tested as fixed between concrete panels on either
00:45:36 fixed between concrete panels on either side yeah is that correct that's correct yeah and for the vertical product it was only tested between light weight light weight aerated concrete wall not not in
00:45:47 weight aerated concrete wall not not in a rain screen exactly I haven't been given evidence of the decider eyes cavity barriers with a standard polyethylene cored rain screen system
00:46:00 polyethylene cored rain screen system yeah yeah that's helpful and and well we I just do the distinction there between horizontal and vertical yeah and a vertical cavity barrier is that normally
00:46:11 vertical cavity barrier is that normally with an intermittent or is that more of a a block
00:46:15 a a block well I grind for terror they were specified as as being that full sealed I mentioned earlier yeah so it should have been from the concrete flush tight up
00:46:26 been from the concrete flush tight up against the external surface and going to the I know you've said it's a minor issue but I just want to summarize the
00:46:37 issue but I just want to summarize the the issues you've raised about time about the installation so and you've said that they were in your view not fitted in accordance with the manufacturers specification and I'll
00:46:48 manufacturers specification and I'll just run through the key points you say they were rough cut with gaps between barriers and the external yes not tightly abutted and with cladding Kayle cladding rails cut
00:46:59 cladding rails cut the barrier yes I think we've seen photographs of that so I'm not going to again and you've noted the lack of any cavity barriers in the nose of the
00:47:11 cavity barriers in the nose of the column and the tip of the column yes is that correct can you give a view I mean how common you think these issues were across the cavity barriers based on your
00:47:22 across the cavity barriers based on your inspections yeah so it seemed to have been very consistent I have to say it was I did get the chance to go out onto the scaffolding and I observed the panels being removed in various places the rainscreen panels being removed
00:47:35 the rainscreen panels being removed so in general I saw that the cavity barriers in the columns were particularly
00:47:51 uneven and I was going to say kind of jimmied in whereas the horizontal cavity barrier was better fitted yeah because you've also found that horizontal cavity
00:48:03 you've also found that horizontal cavity barriers had been used in the vertical position is that correct yes so whoever installed the cavity barriers and the columns seemed to just take the the product that was specified for the
00:48:15 product that was specified for the horizontal condition and just turn it around cut us and shove it into in behind the ACP and and you also say that cavity barriers were absent at the head
00:48:27 cavity barriers were absent at the head of the rainscreen cladding system yeah at the top of the building yeah so they were they don't appear to have been specified on the drawings you know I did not get to I did not get good luck and
00:48:41 not get to I did not get good luck and anyway actually there's nothing there's nothing to see yeah but I think you emphasized earlier that a peer document B does absolutely jest if you're following that guidance that they
00:48:52 following that guidance that they shouldn't be there at the head yeah you have to seal the wall on the final floor yeah
00:48:57 yeah I'm sorry at the top of the final floor excuse yeah yeah although the logical question follows do you think that the presence of cavity barriers at the top of the building before you get to the crown could have made any meaningful
00:49:09 crown could have made any meaningful difference in terms of fire spread at ground floor Tower not a grand vitara no
00:49:18 now you've also noted in your latest report that at the time of construction of Granville tower the manufacturer's instructions for the type of cavity barrier that we used a side arise RH 25
00:49:30 barrier that we used a side arise RH 25 at the green strip yeah yeah didn't state that they should be installed with that green leg logo tape at the top is that correct for the for the product
00:49:41 that correct for the for the product with the smaller gap 25 yes yeah I had thought it was for both for any product yes but but then it was only for the open stay cavity barriers that are
00:49:56 open stay cavity barriers that are tested for adequate performance with a large or 50 millimeter gap yes do you understand why one product should be installed in one orientation and not the other no I don't I'm not particularly
00:50:08 other no I don't I'm not particularly since I've read all the side rise fire test reports what is it about this fire test report because in all the test reports it says the ensure messenger 75 millimetres deep so I don't understand
00:50:21 millimetres deep so I don't understand when you have cavity barriers that are deeper than 75 millimetres I don't understand why it doesn't matter where the interessant is and is that something
00:50:34 the interessant is and is that something you want to explore in more detail at phase 2 I mean yes I will look into it but again everything about this product or their what I call minor defects of
00:50:48 or their what I call minor defects of the context of granville because of the overall water was fitted into in other buildings with the masonry wall or whatever those smaller details in the
00:51:00 whatever those smaller details in the context of grandfa are then very important yes okay so it's important to note I think that whilst you said in your first report that the barriers were upside down and that I was a
00:51:12 upside down and that I was a non-compliance yeah you're not saying that's a non-compliance in your revised report I'm using more neutral language
00:51:20 and then but I remain I remain technically entirely unclear why it doesn't matter I see and then finally as we discussed
00:51:31 I see and then finally as we discussed earlier you found no cavity barriers around any of the windows no I don't know mr. Chairman I think that's a good moment for a breaks I'm moving to a different topic yes yes good
00:51:44 different topic yes yes good well should we have five minutes or ten I think that's a ten good well we'll have a ten minute break okay talk to in
00:51:56 have a ten minute break okay talk to in on virtue or evidence yeah that could cost us Riza courses Freeman please
01:02:40 can you take your seats please and remain silent thank you
01:03:56 alright go clean yeah if I can just start by giving it a trigger warning in about three or four minutes we're going
01:04:07 about three or four minutes we're going to come to look at the escape of the flat out of the escape of the fire out of flat 16 and issues around that and I
01:04:18 of flat 16 and issues around that and I know dr. Lane is keen to be able to look at Professor Bisbee's video yes so we're going to watch a portion of that again I'm afraid so I'll give the trigger
01:04:30 I'm afraid so I'll give the trigger warning again when we get to it thanks but I'm warning people now that we're just a few minutes away from that if they wish to leave and that that will involve scenes of the tower on fire
01:04:41 involve scenes of the tower on fire which someway I find distressing before I come into that new topic I did have to follow up questions from the issues we were just discussing first of all a
01:04:54 were just discussing first of all a number of residents in their evidence and have referred to the fact that after the refurbishment they felt that there were drafts around the windows that they could really feel do you have any
01:05:08 could really feel do you have any insight into what have been the source of those drafts is that something you've thought about so so say as a fire safety
01:05:20 thought about so so say as a fire safety engineer it's you know I don't think about drafts but what I would say no no sorry and I think it's really important to just remember that detailing under
01:05:34 to just remember that detailing under the uPVC so my interest in it is what's under the uPVC and I've told you you know several times today about those voids so one can imagine you can
01:05:47 voids so one can imagine you can translate from there then to sizeable sizable voids and loose materials but it would be you know it's better for an arc
01:05:58 would be you know it's better for an arc you know in architecture appropriate person to yep give a prop you know proper view yeah and then just one point of detail and clarification about your diagram ten point eighteen
01:06:11 about your diagram ten point eighteen this is on page 20 of chapter ten that's B la f50 is ten sorry ten point eighteen yes its figure
01:06:24 sorry ten point eighteen yes its figure yeah ten point eighteen at the top of page 23 we were looking at that earlier in the context of cavity barriers and here you have this diagram of the fire
01:06:37 here you have this diagram of the fire spreading through the combustible polyethylene core of the rainscreen cladding panel and I've been asked to get you to clarify so far as you're aware and could the aluminium skins stay
01:06:52 aware and could the aluminium skins stay in place and the the PE burn up the middle of the panel or would the aluminium have to delaminate somewhat tonight about to happen yeah I mean can
01:07:04 tonight about to happen yeah I mean can you literally get fire spread inside so with the two pieces of aluminium okay so dead that's a cavity barrier could work perfectly well with the remai no I don't think that's what's being
01:07:15 no I don't think that's what's being suggested I think it's just to clarify when it's circumventing can it circumvent the cavity area by literally going right up the middle all right or will you always get or need
01:07:26 all right or will you always get or need to have for oxygen purposes some kind of delamination d bonding of the aluminium so I suppose it depends on what the flaming what the flame situation is in
01:07:37 flaming what the flame situation is in that location at that time isn't it so if it's at the start of something and might just be the core but when you have that very well established flame front on a column I think there is more than
01:07:51 on a column I think there is more than just the core change and going on yeah okay so um I'm not going to turn to a different topic which is to effectively go back to the sequence of events at
01:08:02 go back to the sequence of events at Granville Tower and to summarize your evidence by reference to the sequence of events in the early stages I'm then going to want to explore with you on Monday when your evidence continues the active and passive fire
01:08:14 continues the active and passive fire safety systems inside the tower okay and in more detail and we'll start with with doors on Monday yep um so first I want to consider the route of fire spread out of flat 16
01:08:27 route of fire spread out of flat 16 [Music]
01:08:29 [Music] you've heard both professor torero and professor Bisbee being questioned about this and in your report you addressed this at ten point three point seven
01:08:40 this at ten point three point seven where you say you think the most probable escape route was the higher portion of the kitchen flat window through the column side jamb and head of the window is that correct yes that's
01:08:51 the window is that correct yes that's correct and does that remain your position yes it does now at this point is it appropriate to to watch the the video of Professor Bisbee before we come
01:09:04 video of Professor Bisbee before we come on just a moment to explain my yes I think it's possible for us to we did it yesterday stop the video if you want to at particular part or we can just watch
01:09:15 at particular part or we can just watch it all the way through well I think if we're talking about the fire coming out at the jacket at the top on the side of the window so anything say from about 1o
01:09:28 the window so anything say from about 1o 106 onwards would be fine just a few minutes and then I can just maybe do some talking yeah that's fine can we can we do that
01:09:44 so just before we play this I'm going to give the trigger warning one more time so we are about to play the video of the fire spread out of the kitchen window and up the east face if anyone wants to
01:09:58 and up the east face if anyone wants to stop watching we'll all leave the room now
01:10:13 right yes that's 108 can we take it back to
01:10:27 yes that's 108 can we take it back to 180 I may be 106 yeah that's fine yeah
01:10:37 [Music]
01:10:51 if we stop there you're good to stop there is that okay yeah yeah so again it's about going back to this drawing
01:11:02 it's about going back to this drawing after eight eight eleven and so so when when you look up this image here so you can see some flame it's still internal
01:11:14 can see some flame it's still internal you can see glowing from inside the room and we also know from the thermal imaging from with you know from London Fire Brigade the the kind of the general
01:11:25 Fire Brigade the the kind of the general area of the heat source and all of that is going on beside this that you know
01:11:36 is going on beside this that you know near the uPVC on the side of the window if the uPVC at the top of the window and this complex gap I've been referring to which can be anything from 30 to 130
01:11:49 which can be anything from 30 to 130 millimeters and you want to pull up that drawing I think we can split this coil kind of do that with you
01:11:59 the drawing is it BMA f60 eight page 13
01:12:13 yeah that's it right drawing if we zoom in on the far right hand yeah we go that's fine yeah that's fine so you've
01:12:34 that's fine yeah that's fine so you've heard in the north lot in the last few days about how uPVC behaves in relatively low temperatures and I'm not talking about when it's ignited or anything like that I'm weaning it we've
01:12:45 anything like that I'm weaning it we've had a discussion that it was glued on it's you know it wasn't mechanically fixed to the window area either so you know in my mind we have it's a localized
01:12:58 know in my mind we have it's a localized you know fire but in that localized area relatively speaking it's a substantial fire near that corner of the window before it gets eights but what we can't
01:13:11 before it gets eights but what we can't see is there is no heat transfer through that corner okay through this corner sorry you know you have some kind of
01:13:24 sorry you know you have some kind of fire condition here you have heat transfer heat transfer in through this corner which may be 35 it may be three or four times larger than that and so by the time we see the flames on
01:13:40 and so by the time we see the flames on the exterior so out the glass but at Monte we've had that localized heating condition going on in that corner for several minutes and I think that it's
01:13:54 several minutes and I think that it's more probable therefore that the heat transfer in the fire condition there has entered the column cavity you know in a
01:14:05 entered the column cavity you know in a in a within minutes of the first minute we see the flame on the outside yeah okay I don't think it happens later I
01:14:16 okay I don't think it happens later I think it's been going on the conditions have been if you if you will the materials everything's been getting ready and after a few minutes the heat is transferring into that cavity all along so just to be
01:14:30 that cavity all along so just to be clear about the mechanism the UV BC is potentially melted PVC is is may have fallen away might be distorting yep okay
01:14:41 fallen away might be distorting yep okay and then we've got the insulation behind that yeah we have a little piece of insulation glued on to the back of us and then after that then it's fresh air and the end of the map the membrane into
01:14:54 and the end of the map the membrane into the cavity and the column so the edpm membrane and then you're straight into the instance race you're straight into the cavity and the column and heating any material in behind the panel there
01:15:05 any material in behind the panel there so the panel itself and the insulation do okay do you want to carry on watching the video well I don't know what your next question is no no sorry I don't
01:15:18 next question is no no sorry I don't need to know I'm fine no no but if you ask me something else yeah so is there anything else in that video sequence that you want to do attention to well I think I was struck
01:15:31 attention to well I think I was struck by some of the evidence about this issue of bleaching of the compartment but I don't know if I should talk about that now or not and feel free I mean I'm
01:15:42 now or not and feel free I mean I'm talking I'm trying to get you to explain why it is that you think that's the likely route out of flat 16 if you if you would as I think of you on the the other the other theory that we were
01:15:54 other the other theory that we were discussing which is kind of through an open window possibly through the extract pan panel window okay is that what you were just talking about well so I can
01:16:05 were just talking about well so I can see that the flame reaches the glass and the extractor fan and then becomes an external flame but I think in the time period it's taking for us to finally see this this internal heating is going on
01:16:19 this this internal heating is going on in that corner in this complex corner that we
01:16:22 that we okay and in terms of breaching the compartments I I thought it was just having listened to everybody for the last few days I'm coming to that
01:16:34 last few days I'm coming to that okay hold up on these yes in so that's all but in my mind I think the most dominant the most probable first route is through that can the connection of
01:16:46 is through that can the connection of the corner of and I think one of the things you refer to in your report is the thermal imaging from within flat 16 it shows the location of the heating
01:16:57 it shows the location of the heating shall we go today it's figuring point three eight yeah elas six zeros nine at page four to five and it's that thermal
01:17:14 page four to five and it's that thermal imaging well actually sorry let's keep this diagram yeah I hate it is because I think yes so ideally you've drawn attention to this in your in your report yeah so I want you to try and I mean I'm
01:17:26 yeah so I want you to try and I mean I'm only interested in the thermal imaging for a kind of a general location yeah but when you think about that you know overlaid on the construction that that's
01:17:37 overlaid on the construction that that's what interests me and and in this picture you know the uPVC beside the column is removed but you can see that the area that just that concentrated area from whatever is happening in the
01:17:49 area from whatever is happening in the kitchen is all over by that corner of the column with the window and and I'm clear in my own mind how easy it is for heat to transfer through that connection
01:18:02 heat to transfer through that connection you know through that detail and into the cavity that's the the point I'm making there
01:18:15 yeah and I think as a fact you say that you think the fire was already in the cutting setting by 108 is that correct yeah I think so I think by the time we see that external flame front yeah there
01:18:29 see that external flame front yeah there has been a lot going on for the 10 even longer minute you know that's in fire sense 10 or so minutes and that type of heating with those materials in a
01:18:41 heating with those materials in a localized sense as a substantial event it's a localized event yeah yeah and you for that 108 time I think you refer
01:18:52 for that 108 time I think you refer that's just look at this photograph which is a still yeah that's I WS six zeros 51
01:19:21 sorry if it's easier it's in yes I think that's the photograph that you you've
01:19:33 that's the photograph that you you've referred to in your report 108 timing can you just tell me where you are sorry I should have done it to it in your report that's that be LA s6 series 5 page 10 of watch OS sorry it's
01:19:47 series 5 page 10 of watch OS sorry it's chapter 5 yep page 10 yeah so figure of
01:20:02 chapter 5 yep page 10 yeah so figure of 5 years yes figure 5 point 5 that's the same as the pay today we just had sorry this is clear actually because you here you put the lines on it so it's that photograph that you're now yeah
01:20:13 photograph that you're now yeah highlighting in terms of external flaming outside the window at 108 that correct yes earliest evidence I've seen of external framing based on the photographs and videos that's
01:20:24 photographs and videos that's choreography today's yeah and does it remain your view that wants the fires near the window or indeed anywhere in
01:20:37 near the window or indeed anywhere in the flat if allowed to develop and cause heating of the window components spread to the exterior is practically inevitable if yes if the fire isn't
01:20:48 inevitable if yes if the fire isn't interfered with yes yep and is it also your view that once the fire was within the cladding there was nothing to impede the spread of fire and smoke around the building that's correct and you say this
01:21:01 building that's correct and you say this created the conditions for a catastrophic fire event to occur yes I did yeah I now want to turn to the topic you were just touching on which is about
01:21:12 you were just touching on which is about breach of compensation yep and I want to ask you when you think the breach of complementation occurs yeah at what moment yeah can could I use that figure
01:21:26 moment yeah can could I use that figure in approved document b actually please for our we've been looking at the car to buyers all the time yes so because I just want to explain the kind of statutory perspective on a compartment
01:21:39 statutory perspective on a compartment breach I just wanted to introduce that having heard the other experts yeah we'll just find that so it's um be LAX
01:21:53 we'll just find that so it's um be LAX five zeros eleven page 69 just figure eleven point two two of European thing yeah okay so there's it it isn't assumed
01:22:15 yeah okay so there's it it isn't assumed that the fire is kept within the compartment and once it passes say one you know a millimetre line the compartment is breached and so first of all to think about the cavity so it is
01:22:27 all to think about the cavity so it is assumed fire can enter a cavity but then that it's contained from spreading to a cavity in the next apartment and if you look at this in this condition here of
01:22:39 look at this in this condition here of the fires in this room between this room at this level and the room at the next level above you have to break one and two cavity barriers before the flame is
01:22:52 two cavity barriers before the flame is in the next compartment and three cavity barriers if you will before you interfere with the next window so the fact that the flame is in the cavity and flat sixteen it is not a compartment
01:23:05 flat sixteen it is not a compartment breach at that time it becomes a compartment breach and the cavity only find it reaches the next apartment next flat above or below and it's the same
01:23:16 flat above or below and it's the same with external flame projection it is taken account for the flames may break a window and project and that's exactly why the external surface is meant to
01:23:28 why the external surface is meant to adequately to spread a fire because it's assumed that that will occur it's just then it cannot cause a fire in the next apartment and it's that there
01:23:42 the next apartment and it's that there are two two very distinct things that are factored in that you can have the fire it can break into the cavity it can break out the window but the principle
01:23:53 break out the window but the principle is it then does not go on to burn the next compartment so the first sign of flame out the tower is not compartment
01:24:05 flame out the tower is not compartment ation breach as I understand the strategy guide yes so it follows from that answer that you think that complementation is breached yes when
01:24:19 complementation is breached yes when we've got fire up at the next level exactly once it goes holding on the compartment about exactly and do you have a view I mean you say in your report that internal complementation had
01:24:32 report that internal complementation had started to fail by 1:30 yes would you put 113 at the point when yes so so at around 113 you can see see the flames
01:24:43 around 113 you can see see the flames above the compartment floor line at level 5 and by the time it gets to 115 did I say 113 there sorry I think that had one fit I should have said 113
01:24:54 had one fit I should have said 113 within 120 seconds you can actually see the flame flashing underneath the cladding on the column are at level 5 so
01:25:08 cladding on the column are at level 5 so now we that is compartment ation breach so we've got complementation breach at that by then by then yep and do you
01:25:22 that by then by then yep and do you think that was visible then at ground floor tower based on evidence you've seen that there was complementation breached by 113 do you mean to do people
01:25:33 breached by 113 do you mean to do people to firefighter watching yeah that was visible well so you'll note that I haven't said the building fair old at 113 115 because even when the
01:25:46 old at 113 115 because even when the flames start to impinge on level 5 in the moment it's still kind of feel bad
01:25:57 the moment it's still kind of feel bad even saying this in the context of what actually happened but it's still a small fire in one small part of flat 16 and the flat above so in that moment there
01:26:09 the flat above so in that moment there is no reason to think it's going to count you know it's it's necessarily going to carry on okay in those moments okay and it's the same when it gets to 6
01:26:21 okay and it's the same when it gets to 6 and 7 and I'm interested in all the other levels because ideally using a handheld hose up to about level 7 it's still a fire that can be mitigated
01:26:33 still a fire that can be mitigated potentially and even when I get up to a level 11 it's still a localized fire yes it's on multiple floors but it's in a localized area of the building that's
01:26:46 localized area of the building that's still within reach of maybe an aerial appliance and the reason why I went on to I've thought about it for a very long time to pick the time of 126 for
01:26:58 time to pick the time of 126 for building failure rather than 115 is because at that point it's very clearly visible that the flame front is now what
01:27:09 visible that the flame front is now what I will call unstoppable okay so in those first few stories it's still in a small part of those compartments and within reach okay my opinion yeah no it's right
01:27:23 reach okay my opinion yeah no it's right I mean I understand the proposition that the building did not actually fail in one sense until the fire had progressed from floor for a number of flaws but I
01:27:38 from floor for a number of flaws but I think I understood you to say that once the fire got out of flat-4 into the cavity yes there was nothing to stop it after that Oh correct yes that's correct so in one
01:27:51 Oh correct yes that's correct so in one sense building had failed as soon as the fire got into the cavity yeah not so in hindsight we know yes okay don't we but
01:28:02 hindsight we know yes okay don't we but in that I keep using the this in the moment so there is no reason in the moment to think that external flame projection or even a fire in the cavity
01:28:14 projection or even a fire in the cavity at level four can carry on and that's why I use the word catastrophic since I think I hope I'm right in understanding this it's a matter of perception or
01:28:26 this it's a matter of perception or recognition so wanted to got into the cavity at floor four yeah the ensuing series of events was bound to happen but
01:28:37 series of events was bound to happen but you wouldn't know that until it had developed quite a lot further exactly I think it's Enric I suppose if I can say it this way I think it's unreasonable to expect back
01:28:50 I think it's unreasonable to expect back then now now is obviously very different okay but back then I I think it would be unreasonable for me to say now everyone
01:29:01 unreasonable for me to say now everyone should have known the minute the flame was in the cavity at level four we all knew what was going to happen I think that would be very unreasonable for me to say and I still think just within a
01:29:14 to say and I still think just within a few stories it was an event that maybe could have been mitigated if you had known the nature of the materials in the
01:29:27 known the nature of the materials in the classroom both the insulation and the rain screen would that affect your view of what you would have inferred from seeing the fire breaking out of floor
01:29:39 seeing the fire breaking out of floor four well I'd go actually even further than that I think that if those materials had been known okay the building shouldn't have been occupied because the fire brigade would
01:29:53 occupied because the fire brigade would have been also known what was facing them okay and so now we're kind of mixing all the time that Matt Heinz ice and in the moment so as
01:30:05 Matt Heinz ice and in the moment so as far as I'm concerned in the beginning it was a localized fire it breached the first compartment around 113 115 it was
01:30:16 first compartment around 113 115 it was still a Retton fire that could be mitigated but above a certain level it became a fire that could not be mitigated and was clearly not going to
01:30:28 mitigated and was clearly not going to stop because it couldn't stop because of the construction materials that existed all around the building that's great that's just thank you very much just
01:30:40 that's just thank you very much just linking that to the stay-put policy yeah I think you say in your report that the internal compartment ation and the principles of stayed put evacuation regime had started to fail by
01:30:52 evacuation regime had started to fail by 113 yeah and then you say they'd substantially failed by 126 yes is that a distinction that you're still yes so it's basically a shorter way of saying
01:31:04 it's basically a shorter way of saying what I've just explained there yeah okay
01:31:09 now in your report you say well by 121 eight flats have been impacted by an external failure bunt yeah and by 126 that had risen to 20 flat
01:31:22 that had risen to 20 flat let's just go to your figure 12.1 on page 8 of chapter 12 BL as50 12
01:31:37 in the CS hammers I don't have that can oh yeah paradigm rod figure so it's twelve point one I think you're referring to you yeah when you get the
01:31:50 referring to you yeah when you get the point about the impinging the flats that are impinged by yeah external flame and and if we can look at the right hand too yeah alums here you say in your report
01:32:04 yeah alums here you say in your report that by one twenty one eight flaps had been impacted and one twenty six twenty flats yeah exactly so this is just a very simple diagram and each flashes marked red wants the flame front reaches
01:32:17 marked red wants the flame front reaches it in anyway it's just a very simple just trying to show progression okay sorry I should have given a trigger warning before going to that I was actually wanting also to go to the two
01:32:28 actually wanting also to go to the two diagrams below when you've actually tried to just Yap out that yeah the difference yep and just just to test
01:32:40 difference yep and just just to test your views on on stay put for a moment so it's not your view that stay that was untenable the moment complet complementation was breached around 113 not on that moment no what about at the
01:32:54 not on that moment no what about at the point at one for team and the lfb changed their tactics and they request a hydraulic platform do you think that's relevant to when stay-put becomes
01:33:07 relevant to when stay-put becomes untenable that event
01:33:13 I think that's a recognition that unplanned for external firefighting is becoming necessary I think we would probably be talking about this some more
01:33:25 probably be talking about this some more on Monday with the measures just a reminder that a designer only puts into a high-rise residential building equipment for internal firefighter do
01:33:43 equipment for internal firefighter do you think it was clear at that point that defend in place had failed this is the kind of mirror image of stay put
01:33:57 defendant place fire fighting is about fighting the fire internally using equipment the building provides fire you
01:34:08 equipment the building provides fire you as a firefighter and it relies as does stay put
01:34:15 stay put that there is a flashover fire in one flat that make flashover flat fire and warm flat that may be impacting another floor above what about the ferocity and
01:34:30 floor above what about the ferocity and speed of attack of the fire going up that face do you think before 1:26 the very speed and the ferocity perhaps should have indicated that stay-put had
01:34:42 should have indicated that stay-put had failed so I think you know I struggle with this because the I think it's really easy for me to say that now because I you know woke up the following morning as such ok but I think in those
01:34:54 morning as such ok but I think in those moments and that's why I want to keep emphasizing why I picked 1:26 in those moments and the minutes the past I think up till about story you know I said I'd
01:35:06 up till about story you know I said I'd between about the story 7 and story 11 this was still a fire in a coroner within reach of typical equipment ok
01:35:18 within reach of typical equipment ok after that there was a need for that recognition to occur then yes just on
01:35:30 recognition to occur then yes just on the concept of stay put just generally in the definition of stay put you have said in your report the concept of occupants in dwellings adjoining the
01:35:42 occupants in dwellings adjoining the dwelling on fire being safe if they remain where they are during a fire it is the stay-put strategy and that's how you define it in you yes yes that's correct
01:35:51 correct and and do you agree that the stay-put strategy means you stay in one's flat until that flat becomes compromised by fire or smoke
01:36:02 yes or you're you're free it's it's been written in in guidance in certainly since 1971 actually it's in 1962 unless you make the decision to leave anyway
01:36:14 you make the decision to leave anyway you know so the idea is you may decide to escape anyway and it's safe to do so or it's safe for you to stay in your flat until you're impacted by products
01:36:25 flat until you're impacted by products of combustion or you're instructed to do so
01:36:28 so yeah I've been asked to put to you if we could just look at the LGA guidon purpose-built blocks of flats that has a definition of stay put I'd need to I'd need that bring it up
01:36:39 I'd need to I'd need that bring it up yeah so it's at nineteen point one that CTA are five zeros thirty-three at page 30
01:37:26 yeah so if we just took at the bottom of that page there's a definition here of stay put so it says a stay put policy involves the following approach when a
01:37:37 involves the following approach when a fire occurs within a flat the occupants alert others in the flat make their way out of the building and summon the Fire and Rescue Service if a fire starts in the common part anyone in these areas
01:37:50 the common part anyone in these areas makes their way out of the building and summons the Fire and Rescue Service all other residents not directly affected by the fire will be expected to stay put and remain in their flat and less directed to leave by the Fire and Rescue
01:38:01 directed to leave by the Fire and Rescue Service do you think that definition in any way different from the way you view stay put in well there's a few things strike me about this and I and I just
01:38:12 strike me about this and I and I just need to say now I haven't taught about this before you put it up on the screen so I don't know who are the people in the common parts and how are they going to know how to make their way out or is
01:38:23 to know how to make their way out or is that that is people in the flats around that common part so because remember there's no detection there's no there's nothing to alert you even if there's a fire in a common part in this country in
01:38:36 fire in a common part in this country in a residential building and so I I see this text from the LGA guide I don't know who wrote it or why but it is
01:38:47 know who wrote it or why but it is slightly different I would suggest to the statutory guidance document I need to understand the context of that question to give a proper answer yeah okay but yeah and then in terms of the
01:39:04 okay but yeah and then in terms of the last point is there anything you want to say about that all other residents not directly about it affected by the fog expected to stay put and remain in their flat and Lester directed to leave by the Fire and Rescue Service yeah so we I I
01:39:18 Fire and Rescue Service yeah so we I I can I under understand the sentence but you know in my own report I've explained at length that in terms of the building design condition
01:39:31 design condition you know how the fire and rescue services are expected to do that if there is no provision made for them and also the statutory guidance is that one is always free to leave a building and
01:39:44 is always free to leave a building and one is not meant to rely at all on the Fire and Rescue Services that's the very findings the kind of foundation in be one that makes that clear yeah so I I
01:39:56 one that makes that clear yeah so I I don't know who who wants to know this but if there's something I've missed there they should maybe ask me another question yeah today I've got really one
01:40:07 question yeah today I've got really one more p topic today and then with the Chairman's permission I think what we might do is then great for the rest of today and begin again because I don't want to start the next big topics are
01:40:20 want to start the next big topics are flat doors and stair doors and I want to be able to deal with them in one go you know that makes sense so I want to ask you a few questions about evacuation now you have said it based on a very
01:40:34 you have said it based on a very detailed analysis that you've done of all the evidence available to you including evidence of the conditions in the lobbies and stairs that you think there was a window from between 0 0 58
01:40:46 there was a window from between 0 0 58 and 140 when a total evacuation needed to occur is that correct okay so so just to explain what I mean by that yeah 0 0 58 to 140 so what I mean by that is the
01:41:03 58 to 140 so what I mean by that is the I don't know if we can put up the Clause from 0 anyway the approved document b it makes clear there's a fire in one flat and so the probability of fire and smoke spread is low no reliance on external
01:41:17 spread is low no reliance on external rescue and so total evacuation is highly unlikely to be necessary i think it is and so because a building with this form
01:41:31 and so because a building with this form of external wall could never provide the high degree of compartment ation required to support stay put
01:41:42 required to support stay put from my perspective had handover of that building with the external wallet in in the condition it was a stay put evacuation strategy should not have
01:41:55 evacuation strategy should not have formed the fire safety strategy basis of the building anymore and the only evacuation strategy possible in that context was a total evacuation so I'm saying that from what I call a building
01:42:07 saying that from what I call a building design condition so at handover compartment eight the high degree of compartment ation cannot be maintained and so as the statutory guidance
01:42:18 and so as the statutory guidance document says therefore a total evacuation is highly probable to be needed highly likely to be needed that's what I mean there and I think in terms
01:42:29 what I mean there and I think in terms of the significance of the time 140 yeah you basically showed in your analysis that the the evacuation substantially slows at that point is that correct yes
01:42:40 slows at that point is that correct yes so so the the thing I've just said there is to do at the building condition now starting to look at Advent as they unfolded in the grass I don't know if
01:42:54 unfolded in the grass I don't know if we're gonna I just feel a bit uneasy not having the graph but a crack on i I have and plotted the evacuation rate yeah okay
01:43:04 yeah okay and you can see some clear changes through that data yeah and I've made very clear that was not available during the fire that's something I can do in hindsight and at
01:43:15 something I can do in hindsight and at 140 there is a considerable change and I've explained in section 14 in my report from all the different types of witness evidence we have how the stair
01:43:28 witness evidence we have how the stair and the lobbies were changing from 0 0 58 all through the nights and we know from 140 conditions were starting to
01:43:39 from 140 conditions were starting to deterioration yeah yep and you have said in your report that before the stay-put guidance began to change at 235 177
01:43:52 guidance began to change at 235 177 occupants had or evacuated that left 117 in the building at that point and thereafter you've said that after t 35 further 46 occupants
01:44:06 that after t 35 further 46 occupants over evacuated the left leaving at 807 that's a yeah and you've drawn attention to is that correct yep and I just want to ask you some general questions we can
01:44:17 to ask you some general questions we can come back to this on Monday if we need to what do you think is potentially going on in terms of smoke ventilation migration to enable those evacuations that the latest stages do you have any
01:44:28 that the latest stages do you have any views as to what's going on with the smoke well to enable those people to get out of the building a but I don't think they were enabled at all I think that the people evacuated in life-threatening
01:44:39 the people evacuated in life-threatening conditions do you think that simultaneous evacuation was fundamentally inconsistent with firefighting operations that were going
01:44:52 firefighting operations that were going on at the time in the building no I do not and one of the sorry I just because I don't things get taken out of context
01:45:04 I don't things get taken out of context so I don't think I think that the stare capacity and the relatively low occupancy of the building using a single staircase that is possible but I just
01:45:18 staircase that is possible but I just have to keep reminding everyone all the time
01:45:20 time buildings designed this way have no means to raise an alarm to tell people to leave and trying to so it's it just
01:45:31 to leave and trying to so it's it just sounds very trite of me to simply just say it wouldn't have been impacted the firefighters there was room under stairs for everyone but that's only the start of the story in my opinion that's a key
01:45:43 of the story in my opinion that's a key thing I wanted to take you to actually is what you've done in your report based on your perspective is look at the width of the stair and the guidance that's
01:45:54 of the stair and the guidance that's given an approved occupant B is that correct yes so that's a very simple capacity check yeah that designers use yeah what you've said is the stare of this width and height is
01:46:07 is the stare of this width and height is deemed to provide an escape capacity for simultaneous evacuation of 1030 people that's what the guidance suggests yes in a very simple way yes so that's a able
01:46:19 a very simple way yes so that's a able you know ignoring all the realities of an evacuation yeah and you've also said that even if we assume a 50% capacity of
01:46:30 that even if we assume a 50% capacity of the stair that's going to be around 515 person yes and you say that that's substantially higher than the peak number of firefighters in persons yes in the tower yes which is 321 persons which
01:46:43 the tower yes which is 321 persons which I think is to 9 for residents and 27 firefighters yes that correct and is it right that that's broadly consistent with Professor purses analysis he from a
01:46:55 with Professor purses analysis he from a different perspective has calculated that the maximum standing capacity in the staircase was 460 person yes and then he gives his views about simultaneous investigation yes there are
01:47:07 simultaneous investigation yes there are very simple capacity checks yes when you're doing what I call it you know detailed proper evacuation analysis there is all different timings have to be factored in how long it takes people
01:47:19 be factored in how long it takes people to move there we have to remember even though the statutory guidance makes no provision currently of all the people who find it very difficult or impossible to use a staircase so I think in phase 2
01:47:32 to use a staircase so I think in phase 2 there will be a what I recorded a very robust evacuation analysis done and that it will factor in all those realities these are simple capacity checks to show
01:47:43 these are simple capacity checks to show that the kind of the capacity of the staircase area so I don't think based on the stare width it was a primary problem
01:47:56 the stare width it was a primary problem okay it's what was happening on the staircase in terms of smoke and heat and two other things is the dominant parameter yeah yep so just just finally
01:48:08 parameter yeah yep so just just finally took to round up here you conclude that the required single safety condition stay put
01:48:14 stay put was not provided for as was required as a result of the rain screen system installed during the primary refurbishment that's correct and you say that grandpa tower should never have
01:48:25 that grandpa tower should never have been handed over with this rain screen system in circumstances where a stay put strategy was in place that effect does that opinion assume that all other
01:48:37 that opinion assume that all other active and passive measures in the tower were fully functional and in working order
01:48:42 order I don't think it's possible with the external wall construction that there
01:48:53 external wall construction that there was to mitigate the type of fire that those materials caused and that's a whole combination of active and passive fire protection measures and their
01:49:06 fire protection measures and their condition I don't think it's possible to mitigate that type of fire which is why I said the building should not have been handed over in that condition tonight I
01:49:19 handed over in that condition tonight I think that is a good moment for me in my questions if that's okay to finish early yes today because I want to then go to some of the active and passive measures inside the building yes well I don't
01:49:32 inside the building yes well I don't mean I I understand you couldn't have seen come back on Monday oh yeah very happy to and I think it is can be of help to everyone if we deal with the next topic in an unbroken way okay
01:49:44 next topic in an unbroken way okay so we will stop for now for today yeah absolutely quite pleased anyway yeah it's been quite a long day - I know yeah and we'll resume at 10 o'clock on Monday for evidence I'm going to ask you not to
01:49:55 for evidence I'm going to ask you not to talk about your evidence over there that's fine for the break that's all right yeah and
01:50:02 we'll look forward to seeing you on Monday morning okay ten o'clock Thank You yank you very much do I clean my desk should we clear it thank you
01:50:16 my desk should we clear it thank you very much
01:50:25 well that's all for today just to remind you that we shall be sitting tomorrow to take some further evidence from firefighter witnesses in particular
01:50:37 firefighter witnesses in particular control room officers but and that'll be at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning but for the time being that's it yes thank you very much 10 o'clock tomorrow