Gilberts Ltd & Max Fordham LLP Evidence - Wednesday 7th July 2021 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:55 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to begin by hearing evidence from a representative of the company that made the dampers that were used in the refurbishment of

00:01:07 that were used in the refurbishment of the smoke control system yes mr can we please call mr roy jones thank you

00:01:21 [Applause] good morning mr jones come on i gather you're going to make the earth so you take the book in your right hand if you would please and read the words on the screen i swear by almighty god that the

00:01:32 i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth

00:01:36 truth thank you very much would you like to sit down then and make yourself comfortable thank you thank you mr jones thank you can you please

00:01:44 please yes can you please give the inquiry your full name

00:01:48 full name yeah roy george john jones thank you very much for coming together today and assist the inquiry with its investigations i will be asking you questions today if you have any difficulty

00:01:59 you have any difficulty understanding or hearing what i'm saying please do ask me to say it again and if you don't if you'd like me to rephrase the question please say that as well if you feel that you need a break in addition to the one we usually

00:02:10 break in addition to the one we usually take at about 11 15 in the morning please let us know as well

00:02:14 well and if you could also please keep your voice up so the transcriber sitting to your right can hear and also keep up so if we take it a little more slowly

00:02:24 slowly you made a witness statement to the inquiry can i take you to it please yes it's uh gbl6010 that's your name there and if we scroll

00:02:36 that's your name there and if we scroll through to page seven please that's a statement dated 31st of october 2019. uh is that uh your signature mr jones

00:02:45 jones have you read your statement recently i have can you confirm that the contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief they are yes have you discussed your evidence with anyone before coming here

00:02:56 evidence with anyone before coming here today

00:02:56 today i know thank you um uh first i'd like to ask some questions about you and your background qualifications do you hold any qualifications in relation to manufacture

00:03:08 relation to manufacture and use of dampers please not specifically no and what training have you had in relation to dampers and their use in smoke control systems uh none

00:03:19 uh none you mentioned in an answer to my earlier question not specifically are there any more general qualifications you hold which you think might be relevant to dampers and i i've been involved with various committees in relation to

00:03:31 various committees in relation to dampers the smoke control association typically one of those i am also part of the fsh

00:03:38 the fsh 22-4 bsi committee it hasn't sat for a decent while but that's on dampers in relation to form of the european standards

00:03:49 standards for damper products so i do sit on those committees but i'm not active on any of the committees that are present you mentioned the smoke control association and let's take that

00:04:00 control association and let's take that one first

00:04:01 one first sure um how did you come to be on that committee

00:04:04 committee on an association in the association uh the

00:04:08 the the company as a whole have been involved uh prior to my involvement my previous boss uh my previous director was uh

00:04:17 was uh on the smoke control committee uh when he retired i stepped into his shoes and moved into that position so is that a membership which attaches to gilbert as a company and they send someone they choose or does

00:04:29 they send someone they choose or does the uh is there a selection from sca yes no the the smoke control association is open to send a member from a company so it's the feta membership uh feature of the controlling body under

00:04:40 uh feature of the controlling body under heback

00:04:41 heback and the smoke control associations of one of the associations in there you don't have to apply to attend you can just attend as a committee member you also mentioned the bsi committee on

00:04:53 you also mentioned the bsi committee on dampers which doesn't sit at the moment can you tell us a little more about that and again how did you come to be in that committee first of all same thing again my predecessor had

00:05:04 same thing again my predecessor had been on those committees and i had to apply then to be on the committee in writing with a letter to state my credentials my experience and why i could offer help

00:05:15 my experience and why i could offer help to the committee in regards to form and european standards so i did that and at the same time the rhe2 committee at the same time that the two committees

00:05:26 at the same time that the two committees running concurrently if you will i will be asking you and taking it to numerous bscn documents today am i fair is it fair to assume that you will be familiar with any to do with dampers yes yeah and if i'm

00:05:39 to do with dampers yes yeah and if i'm not i'll let you know thank you if we can please go to paragraph two of mr jones's statement

00:05:48 and just to summarize here you tell us that in october 2019 when the statement was made you were the gilbert's technical director and have been employed in that capacity for about four years at that point yes that's correct a little about

00:06:01 yes that's correct a little about gilbert's first does gilbert specialize in the supply of dampers for smoke control systems no and what is it that it does if you had to describe in a sentence uh

00:06:13 if you had to describe in a sentence uh go

00:06:14 go in relation to dampers only uh i mean 10 of gilbert's businesses is in supplying the dampers the dampers that they supply in this instance are smoke evacuation dampers

00:06:26 instance are smoke evacuation dampers and we also supply by factored goods some smoke fire dampers and fire curtain dampers

00:06:34 dampers does gilbert's design any dampers yes we designed the series 54 damper yes and in due course we'll come to the testing documents for those but

00:06:46 testing documents for those but in terms of the design uh versus the supplier manufacturer what what share of the business would you say that is uh sorry i can repeat the question

00:06:55 question uh so let me rephrase it your role at gilbert's yes um technical director

00:07:02 director yes uh to what extent does that deal with design of dampers sure i have an r d team below me um we have an external consultant and an r

00:07:13 we have an external consultant and an r d test facility and we detail and manufacture from scratch

00:07:18 scratch products as requested and as needed in the marketplace so you said in your statement you were gilbert's uh four years as a technical director were you with

00:07:29 as a technical director were you with the company before then yes what was that sorry sorry i've been there since uh i was an apprentice uh when i was 17. um so i've worked my way through the company

00:07:39 company um up to the technical directorship and what was your role just before the technical director i was senior technical manager

00:07:51 and just help us with this how would you describe gilbert's business overall uh overall uh our core business is uh grills and diffuses supply of grills and diffusers

00:08:01 diffusers um the products you see in the ceiling letting the air into the room if you will

00:08:06 will that's around 50 of our business we then have different sectors one of which is a fire smoke sector

00:08:12 sector which is around the 10 of our business thank you yes yes and thank you mr chairman

00:08:19 chairman in your roles as senior technical manager and technical director were you attached to either these teams the 50

00:08:25 the 50 girls and diffusers or the 10 percent um smoke fire and smoke at all in both positions

00:08:34 positions i was involved with with both of those so

00:08:37 so overall what is your experience in relation to dampers or smoke control systems i have a general overview which is helped by attending the

00:08:48 helped by attending the committee meetings to be able to understand the needs and relevance of various products and systems that exist this then helps ourselves as a company

00:08:59 this then helps ourselves as a company to

00:08:59 to hopefully help the industry provide a product that's suitable and tested to direct standard for the marketplace are you able to assist uh as far as supply of damage is concerned how much of that

00:09:10 concerned how much of that what share that goes to residential for deployment in high-rise residential buildings

00:09:16 buildings uh we don't keep a track on that uh specifically um there are a lot um whether it be high-rise residential or commercial buildings i would assume

00:09:27 or commercial buildings i would assume the majority would be high-rise residential but we wouldn't know whether they were three floors 10 floors 18 floors etc we don't get involved in the detail

00:09:38 etc we don't get involved in the detail or design of the smoke control systems we just provide the dampers you may have answered my next question just now but in in the supply of dampers have you done so in relation to

00:09:50 so in relation to pressure differential smoke control systems

00:09:53 systems uh the the dampers we provide um are smoke evacuation dampers uh marketed as such and uh provided for that purpose uh i'm not aware

00:10:04 aware of any system be it as previously noted as push pull pressurized differential etc

00:10:10 etc these are all common types of system um that i'm aware of but we're not aware of the time of supply

00:10:18 supply what the system is behind the products in use

00:10:21 in use thank you so next i'm going to ask you just some

00:10:25 just some very for you giving you expertise very basic questions about dampers to assist us

00:10:30 us to understand the various components if i can ask um to turn up page 296 of dr lane smoke control report which is blarp 2 5 0's 35

00:10:42 2 5 0's 35 that's page 296 please thank you and may we zoom in on the figure at the bottom

00:10:54 can you see that yes so we're looking at this is a post-fire photograph of gilbert series 54 damper and if we look at the picture on the

00:11:06 and if we look at the picture on the left please are the dampers the two metal plates we see in the open or horizontal position on this picture

00:11:14 picture yes that's the dampening the damper blades yes also known as blades yes uh and is it right that in very general terms the purpose of dampers is to regulate airflow so letting in or

00:11:25 regulate airflow so letting in or keeping out air which travels through the shaft which is situated behind that damper in the case of the smoke evacuation damper there's there's two functions the first one is to either seal the

00:11:37 the first one is to either seal the shaft

00:11:39 shaft on a non-fire floor or to open to evacuate the smoke into the shaft on a fire floor thank you and we will get to the smoke evacuation dump dampers into course but that's very helpful the photograph on the right

00:11:53 helpful the photograph on the right and that shows another side of the same type of dampers but in closed position is that right that's correct do you recognize the dampers on these pictures as the series 54

00:12:02 54 gilbert stampers yes is it right that these dampers are opened and closed by an electric motor called the actuator that's correct and the process of opening or shutting

00:12:15 and the process of opening or shutting the damper it's not immediate it doesn't snap shot it takes some a matter of some seconds yes um the full cycle is less than one minute from full open to full closed thank you if you look at the right side

00:12:28 thank you if you look at the right side picture and look at the bottom right of that picture just above the date stamp is that an actuator connected to the damper that's correct yes

00:12:37 yes if we turn over the page please so that's page 297 and look at figure 7-39 at the bottom so zooming out zooming in please thank you this is a close-up of an orange device

00:12:49 this is a close-up of an orange device and

00:12:50 and i can see on my screen the words is it ballimore bulimia bulimos normally pronounced in black lettering and do you recognize this as a uh belimo actuator supplied with a series

00:13:01 belimo actuator supplied with a series 54 correct that's right

00:13:04 and again in general terms can we agree that where smoke is traveling through the shaft the damper is or all that stat or the shot dump is all that stands between it and the compartment on the other side yes yes and so it has

00:13:18 on the other side yes yes and so it has a very important safety function to perform in summary yes next i'm going to ask you about categories or types of certified dampers

00:13:29 categories or types of certified dampers with reference to a table produced by dr lane which we can find in blarp 2 5 0's 35 page 94.

00:13:44 looking at the columns so this table is titled the three types of dampers and the key test conditions leading to classification and differentiation looking at the columns at the top starting with fire damper you can see

00:13:56 starting with fire damper you can see fire and smoke damper and smoke control damper

00:13:59 damper did you see that can you explain in simple terms please what the differences between those are yes um the fire damper is traditionally

00:14:10 yes um the fire damper is traditionally a

00:14:10 a fire separate separating element either through a wall or a duct what it does is it would normally have a fusible link that would then close when it was warm

00:14:21 that would then close when it was warm i.e sensed that there was heat travelling through the duct it would operate closed in that position therefore stopping the fire spreading further thus performing compartmentation uh either between rooms or doorwork

00:14:33 either between rooms or doorwork um so just to interrupt you when you say it has a fusible link yes sorry um would it be right to understand that the the link as it were operates and the damper then closes what

00:14:45 operates and the damper then closes what by springs or is it actuated by springs yes that would that would be normal

00:14:50 normal you could use a term fire damper for a motorized fire damper so you could have a motor connected to it the traditional way of a fire damper would be called would be a spring-loaded thermal fused fire

00:15:01 a spring-loaded thermal fused fire damper

00:15:02 damper thank you um but i say it can be it can be construed the other way but that's its main purpose so the fire dampers are simple curtain closes uh on heat activation uh and

00:15:13 closes uh on heat activation uh and shots

00:15:14 shots the fire smoke damper uh is a damper that's designed to stop the fire and the smoke at that point um so it has a better seal so with the the the fire and smoke damper these are usually

00:15:26 damper these are usually actuated with a actuator a motor to be able to close the product once the heat or temperature was sensed through a thermal fuse or possibly by a

00:15:38 through a thermal fuse or possibly by a building management control system or a smoke control system that's detected a fire somewhere else and it would then close and again compartment those positions within the building

00:15:49 building either again wall or duct and then finally the smoke control duct the smoke control duct itself um is very similar to the fire and smoke damper

00:15:59 damper uh apart from the fact that uh it's further

00:16:02 further uh developed and tested to be able to open and close during its operation to be able to manage the smoke throughout the building so as the fire continues the the damper could be used either to evacuate

00:16:14 could be used either to evacuate um through the actual damper itself rather than just closing compartment thank you that's very helpful just picking up on the term you mentioned fusible link is that uh an alloy that melts at a

00:16:26 that uh an alloy that melts at a particular temperature and effectively uh triggers it is yes it's it's um normally like a a strip um with some solder a copper strip with some solder

00:16:37 strip with some solder and what happens is it about 78 degrees the temperature would then melt the solder

00:16:41 solder the two parts of the copper would fall and the blade the carriage would fall and form a barrier so unlike in the actuator controlled smoke control damper or some

00:16:52 or some fire and smoke damper or smoke control damper you don't need a signal from another system no correct it's standalone and and while we're on this can you

00:17:00 can you just explain what affects the quality of the seal

00:17:04 the seal in the different sorts of dampers because you said that the fire and smoke damper has a better seal than the fire damper i think yes uh the fire damper would be tested

00:17:16 yes uh the fire damper would be tested to stop the the fire so therefore it has to have an integrity leakage uh the integrity leakage is noticed as 360 meters cube per hour per meter squared

00:17:25 squared um so that's what that has to achieve to be called a fire damper if you will uh the fire and smoke what they do because you want to stop fire and smoke at that point they restrict that amount so it has to seal better uh down to 200 meters cube

00:17:37 seal better uh down to 200 meters cube per hour

00:17:37 per hour one actually affects the quality of the seal

00:17:41 seal the quality of the product in relation to a dovetail is usually used for the blade

00:17:47 blade where you would have a dovetail come across the back of the blade as it closes to give a proper seal blade against blade whereas the curtain damp has to be flexible product

00:17:58 damp has to be flexible product that would drop into position thank you thank you thank you not at all it's all very interesting stuff so

00:18:05 stuff so you've described different functions and different requirements so is it right that

00:18:08 that broadly speaking there's a hierarchy fire damper at the bottom with the least unrest requirements fire and smoke in the middle smoke control damper at the very top in terms of requirements and yes yes

00:18:20 in terms of requirements and yes yes yes yeah generally thank you mr jones i'm sorry

00:18:25 i'm sorry the transcriber will have some difficulty in recording if we talk over each other so i'm if we could all we could both please wait to finish and then speak thank you it's a very difficult job transcribing these sort of questions and

00:18:37 transcribing these sort of questions and answers because there's a natural tendency on the part of the witness to corres cooperate by giving the answer very quickly and a certain enthusiasm on the part of

00:18:48 certain enthusiasm on the part of council to get to the next question so you can both wait for the appropriate opportunity thank you thank you mr chairman um so we will look at

00:18:59 will look at the regulatory background of all three dampers in more detail but first do you agree that the first two so the fire and fire and smoke dampers are defined in approved document b

00:19:11 are defined in approved document b 2013. um

00:19:15 2013. um that's the definitions are there i think they're taken from the approved document b

00:19:18 b yes and we'll come to look at that in two course i and then the third type smoke control dampers can we please go to rbk three zeros four five

00:19:29 to rbk three zeros four five zero five four

00:19:34 we can see the bsen 12 101-6 2005 there i i take it from your silence that you are familiar with this one as well i'm familiar but i don't use this in any

00:19:47 i'm familiar but i don't use this in any of my work uh moving forward as such i see thank you can we please turn to page 71

00:19:55 and focus on clauses 11.8.29 so the two bit toward the bottom of the page in fact i think we can probably see it as it is fire dampers

00:20:06 as it is fire dampers shall not be used in pressure differential system supply ductwork if such ductwork penetrates a fire existing compartment the ductwork shall be protected with a suitable fire existing material

00:20:17 suitable fire existing material and 11.8.2.10 if different pressurized or depressurized zones are connected to the same fan or set of fans by a common system of ductwork and or shafts smoke control dampers

00:20:30 and or shafts smoke control dampers shall be used are you familiar with that particular requirement uh in in general terms yes

00:20:39 can we agree then that this british standards effectively says that only smoke control dampers not the other two types of dampers should be used in systems matching that description

00:20:50 description uh no um it says um the the standard um doesn't advise for the product that's

00:21:04 advise for the product that's produced or provided in this instance just to elaborate on that is are you saying that it doesn't define what a smoke damper is

00:21:16 smoke damper is sorry so the the standard here is is saying

00:21:21 saying um so i just need to reread that a second

00:21:25 second um

00:21:29 yeah the standard is is is asking for um uh a common system of doctor randall shafts for smoke control dampers yes it is asking for that sorry yes thank you very much

00:21:40 you very much um so we will delve into the exciting documentation around each type of damper but we'll take them on turn by turn so starting with fire dampers we'll go through both the testing and the requirements

00:21:51 testing and the requirements uh so first of all fire dampers can we look please at again back to approve document b 2013 for the definition of where fire damper is which is clg five zeros two two four page one four

00:22:04 five zeros two two four page one four four

00:22:07 if we could zoom in on the top two entries in the right column please so uh we will look at the fire and smoke damper definition shortly but focusing on the fire damper now

00:22:18 focusing on the fire damper now mechanical or intumascent just because it's something i had to look up i'm going to ask you mr jones so we can exclude it from our consideration that's something that expands with temperature effective laser

00:22:29 expands with temperature effective laser that's correct so instead of having a fusible link what you have is a material that will expand on on temperature um traditionally used sometimes mainly in doorways to be able

00:22:41 sometimes mainly in doorways to be able to

00:22:41 to block an opening so we're looking at mechanical then mechanical device with an inductor ventilation opening which is operated automatically and is designed to prevent the passage of fire and which is capable of achieving an integrity e we will be coming back to

00:22:54 integrity e we will be coming back to these ladders quite a lot uh classification and or an es classification to bsen 13 501 3 2005. so that's the classification standard

00:23:05 classification standard yes yes when tested to bscn 1366-2 1999 and that's the testing standard correct thank you

00:23:16 testing standard correct thank you can we please go to dr lane's phase 2 uh smoke control report which is blarp 2 5 0 35 page 86

00:23:29 and looking at the last bag up there if we could just blow it up slightly please

00:23:35 do take a second to read through that but to summarize dr lane says that the purpose of a fire damper is to close and remain closed during the fire preventing the passage of fire which is i think what you said

00:23:47 of fire which is i think what you said when

00:23:47 when giving the description the beginning yes yes so you agree with that and it's required uh by adb 2013 to protect openings created by ventilation systems in internal

00:23:58 ventilation systems in internal compartmentation that also do you agree with that as well i agree with the definition um the the only caveat i would put on that is that the internal compartmentation doesn't actually mention a shaft um so

00:24:11 doesn't actually mention a shaft um so it doesn't actually appropriate towards a shaft itself that's dealt with somewhere else see thank you that's helpful uh can we i i

00:24:19 i i do apologize to the operator for lots of jumping back and forth but back to the adb

00:24:24 the adb uh page 88 this time so that's cl oh in fact you've got it there so it's middle of the right column uh we see

00:24:34 see uh that what exactly what performance has to be shown in terms of minutes fire damper should be tested and we've been through this i won't repeat it against the classification and testing standard they should have an e-classification equal to

00:24:45 should have an e-classification equal to or greater than 60 minutes fire and smoke dampers should be tested

00:24:50 be tested same standards but they should have an eos classification equal to or greater than

00:24:55 than 60 minutes so giving your expertise you can no doubt tell us what in simple terms what an es classification is sure the e's integrity

00:25:06 classification is sure the e's integrity uh that means that it matched the 360 meters cube per hour leakage rate required of it um and the es is that it's reached the 200 meters cube with more onerous

00:25:17 more onerous 200 meters cube so less leakage uh if it has an es against against any

00:25:24 thank you that's that's very helpful right we'll we'll just for the transcript look at the definitions uh of integrity and smoke leakage uh on page nine please uh of um

00:25:35 uh on page nine please uh of um uh in fact uh it's it's a new psi bsi uh five zeros eight one zero

00:25:46 um so far classification of construction products and building uh elements it is a bit of a wordy one classification using data from resistant tests and products and elements used in building services installations

00:25:58 used in building services installations fire existing ducts and fire dampers and if we could turn to page nine please section 5.1.2 a is an explanation what integrity e means

00:26:10 is an explanation what integrity e means it's the ability of a component of a service installation to prevent the transmission of fire as a result of the passage of significant quantities of flames or hot gases from the fire to the unexposed site thereby causing

00:26:23 to the unexposed site thereby causing ignition

00:26:24 ignition either the non-fire exposed surface or any material adjacent to the surface would it be fair to summarize that as effectively characteristic which assesses how good at the dampers

00:26:36 which assesses how good at the dampers at preventing actual ignition of material on the other side yes that's correct so it's not about the volume of smoke leakage and if we turn over to page 10

00:26:47 leakage and if we turn over to page 10 please

00:26:49 please and that's the 5.1.4 smoke leakage so similar definition of a similar type but for the smoke leakage the ability of the component to resist the passage of gases or smoke

00:27:01 the passage of gases or smoke at ambient temperature and during exposure

00:27:04 exposure to the standard temperature time test the leakage rate is corrected to 20 celsius so that involves two elements that doesn't have ambient

00:27:15 two elements that doesn't have ambient temperature and a heated test yes and this smoke leakage measure is about limiting

00:27:23 limiting unlike the integrity the volume of smoke going through the damper yes that's correct the the integrity leakage is as well uh as i say at a certain limit you must

00:27:34 uh as i say at a certain limit you must have to achieve integrity with the product

00:27:36 product yes you mentioned we'll we'll look at in fact

00:27:39 fact we'll look next at the numbers but uh broadly is at 360 for the integrity 200. and i'm purposefully not mentioning the units because i was very much hoping you would pronounce it

00:27:50 would pronounce it for me first mr jones so in fact i'm going to ask you about that now if we can go to bsi five zeros eight two nine please page one

00:28:02 one fire resistant test for service installations part two fire dampers is it right that this is the relevant test standards as we've seen for both fire and fire and smoke dampers that's correct

00:28:13 correct and and for smoke control dampers as well

00:28:17 well i see um well we will get to that in due course but uh staying with the performance criteria for fire dampers for the minute can we turn to play to page 16 please

00:28:29 can we turn to play to page 16 please uh it's the performance criteria box at the bottom um the following performance criteria apply after five minutes from the start of the fire test and turning over the page please

00:28:40 page please and we see there under integrity uh the and there's a figure and then a unit the best i could come up with cubic meters per a square meter hour is it close of course meters cube per

00:28:52 is it close of course meters cube per hour per meter squared

00:28:56 meters cubed thank you um and we see the measure there at this after the start of the fire test the leakage through the fire damper should not

00:29:07 through the fire damper should not exceed

00:29:08 exceed 360 of that unit and the integrity will be judged according to a different set of criteria which i

00:29:15 which i don't think we need to to go into just now there is a helpful note uh after c the result of the fire task shall be stated in terms of the time elapsed to the completed minute from the

00:29:27 elapsed to the completed minute from the commencement of the heating to the time when the fire damper failed to satisfy the criteria for integrity insulation or leakage or the termination of the heating whichever is the shortest so we see this expressed in for example

00:29:38 so we see this expressed in for example e60 es60 so that's how long did it meet that particular code absolutely correct and within the fire test itself you you'll find that the test may have run in the instance of the 54 maybe 74

00:29:50 in the instance of the 54 maybe 74 minutes uh the classification document the 13501 13501-3 only allows you to classify in half an hour slots so therefore you claim an e60 at that point or in the s60 depend on how it was tested

00:30:03 s60 depend on how it was tested thank you we'll we'll we'll now turn to fire and smoke dampers please and we're going to go back to approve document b for the definition which is at clg50224

00:30:14 for the definition which is at clg50224 page 144

00:30:16 page 144 just below where we saw the definition for the fire damper so um

00:30:23 so um in fact we don't think we need to take it at any length because you you effectively explained to us but it's the same task standard the same classification standard

00:30:31 standard um but uh we will see this as we've seen there's a different requirements that right that's correct

00:30:39 uh dr lane and i won't take you to the page but

00:30:42 page but i'll summarize what she says she explains the purpose of this type of damper as to close and remain closed during a fire where air handling ducts pass through fire separating elements protecting

00:30:53 fire separating elements protecting an escape route do you agree with that yes

00:30:56 yes so effectively it means it's still one that stays closed doesn't close and open during the fire correct and do you agree that the as

00:31:07 and do you agree that the as classification means that we've added on the smoke leakage that's the ass yes if we go back to the classification standard please which is bsi five zeros eight one zero

00:31:21 bsi five zeros eight one zero page sixteen

00:31:25 there's a table there that you might may be able to assist us with so the introduction says for dampers for which the s class is relevant to the leakage for the fire damper shall not exceed

00:31:36 exceed uh 200 meters cubed per meter squared hour

00:31:41 hour and below we see different categories and

00:31:44 and the corresponding numbers so for e we see 360.

00:31:49 see 360. the next row shows es so both if we look down at the column number or column titles both leakage and ambient temperature and during the fire test

00:32:00 during the fire test is 200. that's correct

00:32:06 and last reference to adb for now um paragraph 5.48 page 61 please

00:32:16 we're looking at the top paragraph 5.48 and the node specifically in bold under

00:32:23 under fire dampers activated only by fusible links are not suitable for protecting escape routes so those are the non-actuator dampers yes yes however an eas

00:32:35 dampers yes yes however an eas classified fire and smoke damper which is activated by a suitable fire detection system may be used so is that saying effectively um as long as your damper is eos

00:32:47 um as long as your damper is eos classified it's a fire and smoke damper and it's um it's it's operated by an actuator connected to a system according to this document uh in any

00:32:58 according to this document uh in any event it can be used for as an escape route protection yes i think it's basically saying it's got to be part of a system uh it's not a standalone damper

00:33:10 uh it's not a standalone damper uh and the reason as best you could you can help with this for why there's an additional ass requirement in the context of protecting a smoke

00:33:18 a smoke uh an escape route is because it's not just fire that's dangerous it's also if the space a corridor a lobby or stair is locked with smoke as well yes uh this the smoke classification is

00:33:30 yes uh this the smoke classification is that if there is a smoke on one side you don't want it to pass through to the opposite the other side as well hence the the higher leakage requirement

00:33:42 the higher leakage requirement therefore leaking less smoke from compartment to compartment thank you that's very helpful turning lastly to smoke control dampers can we please go to the front page of test standard

00:33:54 test standard um 1366-10 part 10 which is bsi three zeros one triple seven

00:34:05 so this is a um the bsen so if actually it

00:34:10 it originates in in the european sphere does it yes and but that has to be adopted in um or at the time in any event had to be adopted in in this country uh it's a

00:34:21 in this country uh it's a slightly longer story than that um

00:34:25 we we start with bs standards in this country and when we joined the european union we then collaborated to then make en standards so we all throw our own standards our own national standards together um and then they became uh en standards

00:34:38 um and then they became uh en standards when they were harmonized um so that the the um everyone across europe could follow the same standard uh so any bs standard exists still today is still called a national

00:34:49 still today is still called a national or a local standard and any en standard is adopted across europe

00:34:54 europe thank you that's very helpful um and i know we'll turn to some questions around that as well so you'll have a chance to explain in a bit more detail but if i can ask to turn to page 12 please

00:35:08 and these are the defined terms for the purposes of the bscn 3.27 we see smoke control damper a device that automatically or manually activated which can be open or closed in

00:35:19 activated which can be open or closed in its operational position to control the flow of smoke and hot gases into from or within a duct do you agree that the primary functional

00:35:30 do you agree that the primary functional difference between these smoke control dampers and the ones we discussed is they must be capable of opening and closing in in the course of a fire in this definition yes

00:35:42 definition yes you say uh this definition uh is there another definition of a smoke control damper

00:35:48 damper uh well the the saying that it must be uh open or closed as um because that's what the function of the product is that it would be able to uh adjust the air path

00:35:58 air path or the smoke path to evacuate the smoke out of a building in the best possible manner there are times the the remote control damper may not

00:36:10 the the remote control damper may not necessarily need to be because it will be designed to be in the closed or go to a closed position uh rather than be opened later date it will be just a safety device at that point but it would still be a

00:36:22 at that point but it would still be a smoke control damper that would be used in that system uh whereas they could have possibly used a uh fire smoke damper for instance but the key to the identity of a smoke controlled damper is that it can

00:36:34 controlled damper is that it can move during it can adjust operation yes it can be moved open or closed depending on what you need at any particular moment that's what that says in this context yes sorry

00:36:45 what that says in this context yes sorry thank you mr chairman we'll now look at the classification standard for smoke control dampers if we can turn to bsi 6048 first page please

00:37:02 it says smoke and heat control system smoke control dampers if we can turn to page 18 please

00:37:11 and look at section uh zoom in on the top half please

00:37:19 this will take just a minute to read through but it is significant sets are the integrity performance requirements for smoke dampers the assessment of integrity e of multi-compartment

00:37:30 multi-compartment smoke control dampers is one of the fire existing performance characteristics shall be made on the basis of a leakage for the damper at ambient and when closed

00:37:41 when closed when it says at ambient it almost calls for a word there such as temperature is that

00:37:45 that that temperature is what it's intended there yeah as before it says temperature corrected to 20 degrees uh was what ambient would be classed as so it should be tested at 20 degrees celsius or corrected for that

00:37:58 celsius or corrected for that so where we say leakage through the damp red ambient that should be ambient it means it refers to temperature yes and when closed after five minutes automatic operation or 30 minutes systems with manual

00:38:09 30 minutes systems with manual intervention we'll come back to that later

00:38:11 later from the start of the fire test b the ability of the damper to maintain its opening when subjected to the fire test c cracks or openings in access of

00:38:22 test c cracks or openings in access of given dimensions and ignition of a cotton pad and sustained flaming on a non-exposed side at the perimeter of the damper junction with the wall or floor the duct the penetration so that's a quite a technical

00:38:33 technical testing methodology

00:38:37 um the um the reference to ignition of a cotton pad the the test is exactly the same as under the 1366-2 testing there's nothing different it's

00:38:49 there's nothing different it's characterizing it here rather than setting a new standard you still use the same 1366-2 test and it has the cotton pad it has the

00:38:59 the leakage criteria etc within there yes thank you and lastly d the suitability for use of the damper at under pressure measured at ambient looking at these requirements do you

00:39:10 looking at these requirements do you agree that two of them the a leakage and c cracks requirement as you just said are the same as for a fire damper or a fire and smoke damper but uh b and d are different

00:39:24 uh yes to the first part b india different

00:39:31 uh yes um the the the suggestion here or what it's detailing here is is the fact that

00:39:41 fact that the damper could be opened during a fire test

00:39:45 test rather than every other fire test where you would normally have the damper in the closed position so that's what you're the the b parts explaining there and one of the key differences the use under pressure because we've seen

00:39:57 under pressure because we've seen about 10 or 15 minutes ago when i referred to the pressure differential system paragraphs that these smoke control dampers are often used in that context yet the 13662 test which all the dampers

00:40:10 yet the 13662 test which all the dampers are

00:40:10 are tested under are all subject to a 300 pascal's

00:40:15 pascal's pull force on the damper itself during the testing so the furnace is lit the time temperature curve increases at the rear of the product and on the front there's a plenum which

00:40:26 and on the front there's a plenum which draws 300 pascals constantly across the damper

00:40:29 damper during the test when it's talking about the ambient test you haven't put the furnace on at that time and you do the same thing you pull 300 pascals across and find out what it leaks before it would be

00:40:41 what it leaks before it would be subjected to any temperature thank you we'll come back to the pressure operating pressure factors in the

00:40:47 the in a few minutes um can i ask sorry guys just clarify my understanding of something you you talk about pulling a certain pressure across the damper is this

00:40:57 this in the direction that would tend to open it i assume is it uh because the way the damper works you've got veins which if pressurized on one side

00:41:08 veins which if pressurized on one side would force them closed but if pressurized on the other side would force them open yes if you had that such

00:41:14 that such of a damper you would have to test the damper twice you'd have to do both sides you'd have to turn it around and test it if you claim symmetry for the product i.e the damper blades would fishtail and dovetail in the

00:41:25 would fishtail and dovetail in the center of the product uh then whichever way you pulled or pushed you could define that you don't need the one test to be able to classify that product thank you mr chairman um

00:41:37 thank you mr chairman um dr lane in her report derives the actual numeric performance criteria for a smoke control damper but just to see if we can agree without having to go to all the documents

00:41:49 having to go to all the documents she says that the smoke leakage performance where required for a smoke control damper is 200 cubic meters a per a square meter hour do you agree with

00:42:00 a square meter hour do you agree with that that's correct yes and that's in fact the same as it is for fire and smoke damper yes thank you

00:42:10 can we please turn to dr lane's report which is blarp to at page 92.

00:42:27 it's a 5 blarp250 35 page 92

00:42:43 thank you looking down um at the page at 4.8.70 so we've you confirmed that it's the same numeric uh numeric criterion but uh dr lane here

00:42:56 uh numeric criterion but uh dr lane here sets out what the test differences are she says and we can see that it's important to know the task method for evaluating both integrity and performance and smoke leakage

00:43:07 performance and smoke leakage performance is different the key differences are as follows over the page please

00:43:16 if you could zoom in slightly please at the top

00:43:21 just to summarize that uh the number of open and closed cycles so the operation reliability testing

00:43:29 testing uh it's 10 200 cycles prior to testing the fire testing for smoke control dampers versus just 50 for fire dampers and for fire and smoke dampers

00:43:40 smoke dampers do you agree with that uh absolutely correct the only thing is obviously if it's a fire damper it doesn't go through cycles because it's not motorized uh it's a fusible link product but yes

00:43:51 uh it's a fusible link product but yes the

00:43:51 the the essence is that the smoke dumper does go through an extensive number of cycles other than the just

00:43:58 the just standard fire and smoke damper and that's because as we've discussed it it can be it's designed to open and smoke repeat

00:44:04 repeat open and close repeatedly not specifically no um the damper itself um is tested for 10 000 cycles um so that during the

00:44:15 for 10 000 cycles um so that during the lifetime of its operation it can be proven that it would operate at any time because the damper may even sit dormant for 10 20 30 years but when there's a fire within that building must operate

00:44:27 within that building must operate immediately as designed so there would be weekly tests or anything on the damper during that time and therefore where on the product so

00:44:38 and therefore where on the product so it's to

00:44:39 it's to define uh in my day my understanding is to define that after 10 000 cycles the product would still operate and still be a fire safe design product thank you that's helpful and in some

00:44:50 thank you that's helpful and in some systems would you accept where there's a combined environmental and fire uh smoke control system where the dampers are used for both they may be opening and closing as part of the environmental

00:45:01 the environmental function on a daily basis yes that isn't as far as i'm aware why this part of the test standard is here as a manufacturer what we would do is we

00:45:12 as a manufacturer what we would do is we would do our own longevity test for the product and cycle it as many times until it broke as such and then claim that as our number of cycles thank you that's very

00:45:24 number of cycles thank you that's very helpful

00:45:25 helpful and the second difference is the ability uh of the damper to change from open to closed position and vice versa elevated temperatures do you agree with that

00:45:35 that difference as well

00:45:40 uh and the reason so if you need a second did you want the witness to respond to that question yes please yes

00:45:54 can you remember the questions yes no i i'm sorry

00:45:57 i'm sorry i can't i'm just re-reading it sorry that's right you might apologize um so so um it's defining here that the smoke control damper can change from the open to a closed position

00:46:09 open to a closed position um within the testing standards uh there are certain criteria that you have to hit

00:46:14 hit um and there are certain criteria that you don't have to hit and the hot 430 test is optional uh in relation to whether you wanted to test to allow the damper to open and close at this situation

00:46:27 close at this situation in a system where there's an option as we've seen there's there was there were two periods for automatic use and for manual use that ladder was at least after 30 minutes um from the start in the system where

00:46:40 from the start in the system where there's a manual intervention option so a firefighter turning an override key on the floor or using the um a panel for the system to

00:46:49 to to change the level of operation uh that could involve a smoke control damper coming into effect later on in in the process yes yes and i agree sorry i know where you're coming

00:47:00 agree sorry i know where you're coming from now sorry the yes the the damper would have to have been tested uh with this part in there to be able to open and close uh after the fire incident thank you

00:47:11 after the fire incident thank you so in addition to those differences you've touched on the pascal uh pressure difference uh in in different testing standards i'm going to look at that in a little more detail although briefly hopefully uh if we can

00:47:23 although briefly hopefully uh if we can turn to bsi four zeros one triple seven please at page sixteen

00:47:32 and zoom in at the top please so you mentioned you mentioned that under the bscn 13662 test for fire and smoke damper

00:47:45 13662 test for fire and smoke damper fire and smoke dampers it's 300 pascals yes that that's the the standard definition we use on the fire damper side what you have here is a list of options

00:47:57 what you have here is a list of options uh that you could test the product to and certain other standards like the classification standard the one to onto one of part eight standard that we was referred to

00:48:08 standard that we was referred to previously will actually determine that to be classified as a certain product it would have to be at least pressure level two for instance uh which would be a smoking a smoke control damper

00:48:20 control damper and we see in the second column operating differential pressure at ambient temperature um

00:48:29 does the selection of the testing temperature testing pressure would that depend on how what what pressure is used in the system you're putting the damper in

00:48:37 in yes yes in essence if you were only ever going to operate the dock system below 500 pascals you could then use the operating different pressure

00:48:48 different pressure at pressure level one and um foreshadowing slightly the more detailed evidence on testing will go through what the gilbert series 54 tested at the higher pressure

00:48:59 series 54 tested at the higher pressure differential we see here 500. no the uh the series 54 damper under did underwent a 1366.2 test um it was uh at the minus 300 pascal's

00:49:13 it was uh at the minus 300 pascal's pressure

00:49:13 pressure pressure differential test and the smoke leakage test was a thousand pascals so it was a classification to test thank you turning to

00:49:25 test thank you turning to gilbert series 54 itself before we we dive into the technical detail can you explain please which type of damper did you consider it did you did you consider it to be a fire

00:49:36 did you did you consider it to be a fire damper fire and smoke damper smoke control damper or some other damper some of the damper uh the damper itself is a smoke evacuation damper which doesn't fall into any of those three categories

00:49:49 three categories i will ask you about that in a bit more detail but just for a visual if we can please turn to the 2011 brochure from your company which is psb

00:49:57 psb five zeros two zero one uh first page

00:50:06 thank you and we see what which there's a october 2011 brochure top right uh under the the title of series 54 we have smokey version evacuation damper

00:50:17 have smokey version evacuation damper can you explain please what smoke your evacuation damper is and where the term comes from yeah it's it's um a damper that's been designed

00:50:27 designed uh just simply to evacuate the smoke from um

00:50:31 from um lobbies or or areas that may be affected by smoke

00:50:34 by smoke um to clear passageways and allow the passenger smoke through the damper and out usually through either a natural or an active fan assisted shaft

00:50:45 shaft um that was where the product was born from if you will and does the term smoke evacuation damper as far as you know appear in any

00:50:56 damper as far as you know appear in any of the

00:50:57 of the um guidance documents approve document b bscns or british standards no it doesn't no i'm aware of sorry is this a an industry term or a term that gilbert's

00:51:08 industry term or a term that gilbert's uh coin door uses um we've used it extensively from the the inception of the product and it clearly defines what the

00:51:21 and it clearly defines what the objective of the product is hopefully it's not um exclusive to us but i couldn't say whether the first to use it or not

00:51:32 use it or not can you assist us with this typically to the best of your knowledge what type of system

00:51:38 system would a smoke evacuation damper be compatible or be appropriate for yeah as i said the the product was designed in mind to have um a smoke shaft as i say either

00:51:50 um a smoke shaft as i say either natural or passive uh the reason for the the product to exist uh was we were approached to be able to produce a damper which would achieve a 1.5 meter squared

00:52:02 would achieve a 1.5 meter squared geometric free area um yet still be able to

00:52:05 to pass a rigorous fire test we were asked if we could do this we took up the challenge and and produced this product thank you can i can we please go to page

00:52:18 thank you can i can we please go to page two

00:52:21 and zoom in on the middle of the left column

00:52:28 and we see there a it's a second paragraph on the left a multi-parallel linked blade smoke damper in the series 54 is manufactured from robust 1.5 millimeter galvanized steel

00:52:40 millimeter galvanized steel and is fully tested to the requirements of en 1366 uh part two for one hour usefully the damper combines both a low leakage rate and closed with a height as you said just now high free area when

00:52:52 as you said just now high free area when open to support high smoke evacuation rates um so would you agree um that and i think you will based on what

00:53:03 that and i think you will based on what you've said so far that nothing in that description suggests a smoke control damper or intended to be one

00:53:08 one absolutely correct and it does inside for example bsen1366 stand which is the standard for smoke control dampers correct

00:53:21 we'll now look at the specific supply of dampers

00:53:25 dampers for the grenfell tower project um starting with the level of information gilbert's had and i appreciate you as i understand you weren't involved in this transaction is that right

00:53:37 this transaction is that right i wasn't particularly but did i know the company details researched and provided that evidence already i will summarize hopefully fairly paragraphs five and six of your witness

00:53:48 paragraphs five and six of your witness statement which um for the transcript you say that gilbert's was not directly involved in the grantful tower work but supplied to jsrite 80 series 54 dampers in two

00:54:00 to jsrite 80 series 54 dampers in two sizes

00:54:00 sizes on 5th of june 2015 and then a further eight

00:54:04 eight in november 2015. that's correct thank you and you say that gilbert's had no involvement or input in the smoke control system project yes correct is that a fair summary of uh yes

00:54:17 correct is that a fair summary of uh yes yes

00:54:17 yes yes that's what i've written is it there for your evidence that gilbert was not asked to provide any advice on the selection of appropriate dampers for this system absolutely correct and did it provide

00:54:29 absolutely correct and did it provide any advice no you also said package 21 of your witness statement which for the transcript is page 4 no need to turn up gbl

00:54:40 4 no need to turn up gbl that's gilbert's were provided with no information with regards to the new proposed system at granfell tower

00:54:47 at the beginning of your examination i think you mentioned that you often don't know the system you're asked to supply them before so correct does that mean this situation was typical for what gilbert's encounters

00:54:58 typical for what gilbert's encounters yes do clients typically approach gilbert's to purchase a specific model of damper or do that do they ask can i have a fire damper can i have a fire and smoke

00:55:09 damper can i have a fire and smoke damper what would you what do you have um in relation to the series 54 dampers we would get asked for uh specifically

00:55:20 we would get asked for uh specifically either the series 54 or a smoke evacuation damper um if they ask for a smoke control damper we don't offer a smoke control damper therefore

00:55:30 therefore we would say we don't offer one but we do offer a one of these is this what you're looking for and point them in that direction if the answer is yes then we provide a quotation with specification

00:55:41 quotation with specification thank you does gilbert's ever assist customers in selecting the appropriate damper from the range from from what you just the example you've given it sometimes they do is that right no no we don't

00:55:54 they do is that right no no we don't assist in the product type the product type would be reviewed and set up on by the customer we may give advice as to regards uh um something like um

00:56:06 uh um something like um the pressure drop or loss through the product because there's graphs there may help out with the the technical information relating to that if they asked all the data's there but it's a standalone product

00:56:18 standalone product um and it's pretty simple in regards to if you're aware of the product type then you'll be able to select from the brochure straight away can i just ask

00:56:29 brochure straight away can i just ask you you say that sometimes people come on to you and say can you supply a smoke evacuation damper does that sometimes happen um no one specifically asked me that

00:56:40 um no one specifically asked me that question

00:56:40 question we have an estimator specifically for the smoke and fire products and the question could be asked i'm sorry

00:56:49 sorry i'm not doing what i said you shouldn't um

00:56:53 um what i was interested in to know is whether the expression a smoke evacuation damper was one that was widely used in the trade so to speak

00:57:04 widely used in the trade so to speak do you know that one way or another yeah the the smoke evacuation damper has existed for gilbert's for for 10 years and been supplied into the trade for 10 years

00:57:13 years um so i'd assume by that the inference would be that it would be a known term and product yeah right thank you yes sorry

00:57:20 yes sorry mr chairman if the customer provides information to gilberts and chooses a damper which gilbert can see is that clearly the wrong time type for the system in question is this

00:57:32 type for the system in question is this something gilbert's will highlight to the potential customer or not um not specifically we're not usually provided with that type of information um we don't deal with the smoke control

00:57:45 um we don't deal with the smoke control systems we're not advised of how they're going to operate in the building you've heard of pressurization depression etc that's never commented to us on how the product would be used uh during its uh intended usage

00:58:00 uh during its uh intended usage in answer to my earlier question you said that gilbert's doesn't supply a smoke control damper do i take it from that that it didn't supply one in in about 2015 either no no and to the best of your knowledge do

00:58:12 and to the best of your knowledge do other company or did other companies that in in around 2015 either in the uk or in the eu supply uh smoke control dampers um there are other dampers uh

00:58:24 um there are other dampers uh about um what their function their test uh detailing are i couldn't be 100 certain of um there are choices of of different type of product uh for instance you may move away from a damper

00:58:36 instance you may move away from a damper completely and put a door in if the system would allow you to do this um

00:58:41 um there are drawbacks to that in relation to a door would open on the floor to evacuate into a shaft and therefore not protect the shaft itself for someone falling through the fire damper would obviously do that

00:58:53 the fire damper would obviously do that um so there are there are there are different types of system that could possibly be utilized thank you in paragraph 18 of your witness

00:59:02 witness statement uh we don't need to go to you say no formal classification in respect to the dampers was sought by psb or jswjs right nor was any offered by

00:59:13 or jswjs right nor was any offered by gilberts to the best of your knowledge did any gilbert staff discuss the damper's

00:59:18 damper's certification or classification with psb or mr mahoney in particular or anyone else involved in that project no whatsoever

00:59:29 in that project no whatsoever is it unusual um for a potential customer to offer no information about the system or not talk about certification at all and just uh just specify a particular product

00:59:42 uh just specify a particular product purchase it and and get on with it yes yeah um we would usually work um or our aim is to get our products in the marketplace these are the girls and diffusers fire dampers all the the arrangements

00:59:54 dampers all the the arrangements the products we produce to be able to get the consultants to specify those upfront

00:59:59 upfront so that they then passed those to the contractors who then said uh can you now provide with those products and a price for those please that way we're first of our competition to be able to be

01:00:10 to be able to be given a price for the project thank you that's helpful the next topic i'll turn to is the chronology of of gilbert's supply of the dampers to grenfell tower and uh

01:00:21 dampers to grenfell tower and uh i'm going to go to paragraph seven of your witness statement please which is again gbl

01:00:25 again gbl six zeros ten

01:00:30 to summarize you say that gilberts were first contacted by mr marini of psb requesting a quote from your colleague mark griffiths an estimator yes

01:00:42 griffiths an estimator yes um did you and you confirmed you didn't have any involvement with this transaction personally not personally do you know uh what mr griffin mr mahoney discussed i've spoken with mr griffiths to ask him

01:00:55 i've spoken with mr griffiths to ask him the question uh and as far as he was aware

01:00:57 aware he was just asked for um to be able to provide a quotation for the series 54 dampers

01:01:03 dampers so this was as far as you're aware this is one of the cases where customer has a particular product in mind yes can we please now turn to the first quotation sent by gilbert's which is

01:01:22 gbl706 thank you and we see from the date at the top

01:01:28 the top right 22nd of january 2015. and can we turn to page 3 please blow up the additional nodes so the

01:01:40 blow up the additional nodes so the second half of the page please

01:01:45 and under the sub header the series 54 i'll read out the series 54 damper is designed to be used for natural and mechanical smoke extract applicant

01:01:56 mechanical smoke extract applicant applications by means of a vertical shaft the damper has undergone an en 13662 started from closed position and lasted over 60 minutes for both fire

01:02:07 and lasted over 60 minutes for both fire integrity and smoke leakage es60 but has no formal certification so this is different isn't it to the information we've seen in the

01:02:18 it to the information we've seen in the 2011 brochure which said fully tested to the requirements of en1366 part two for one hour yes the the brochure has gone through a number of iterations uh and uh we have then updated

01:02:31 uh and uh we have then updated um the the advice or the the specification of the product from there and the particular differences is here um it specifies it was tested from the

01:02:42 um it specifies it was tested from the closed position which the significance of which we'll get on to but it's significant isn't it in this context

01:02:48 context yes in the 2013 brochure it was put in there to clarify to the customers that it was started from the closed position

01:02:57 position and um again clarifying there's no formal certification are you able to assist um why the inaccuracy why the inaccuracy in the 2011 brochure

01:03:09 why the inaccuracy in the 2011 brochure existed in the first place uh no um i've obviously read back and and

01:03:14 and the the statement there as we saw previously was that it was uh fully tested to 136-2 we went and uh i was involved in the fire test

01:03:23 fire test we fully tested the damper um through the full

01:03:26 the full pressure regimes um the full uh set time um time temperature curve of the furnace uh et cetera so uh the term fully means that we

01:03:37 that we did the full test uh in my opinion i think that's why it was put there um i think that's what the brochure was leaning towards thank you um

01:03:48 leaning towards thank you um do you agree that the references here and the notes we've just read out to both integrity and smoke leakage performance suggest that the dampers were tested as fire and smoke dampers

01:03:59 were tested as fire and smoke dampers not as fire dampers although not formally certified yes the the the the damper was tested and is always tested um for um insulation smoke and integrity

01:04:12 insulation smoke and integrity but the certification would then come on the back of it you would certify if for instance you failed the smoke leakage you would then only certify to a integrity leakage so

01:04:24 integrity leakage so as far as and please let me know if you don't know the answer to this as far as the design intention behind the damper was it intended to meet the requirements of a fire and smoke damper in terms of the 60 minutes smoke

01:04:37 damper in terms of the 60 minutes smoke leakage criterion the integrity leakage for a 60 minute damper yes but not the smoke leakage no okay so your evidence as i understand it is

01:04:48 so your evidence as i understand it is that's just the task that was done the package of tests but it wasn't that you were disappointed that it was submitted it failed and that's kind because you never expected it to succeed it wasn't designed

01:04:59 designed for that purpose we knew it would not meet the 1 000 pascal's ambient leakage anyway due to the design of

01:05:05 of the product itself does the absence of any formal classification or certification as indicated in this document uh therefore mean it's not certified

01:05:17 uh therefore mean it's not certified even to the lowest of the three types of damper that we looked at yes

01:05:22 yes the the it's a slightly long answer if i may

01:05:26 may um the product itself the smoke evacuation damper has no uh harmonized european standard that it can be tested or classified too the other three

01:05:37 the other three are pigeon holed within there to be able to be tested to the harmonized european standard and therefore can be certified if you

01:05:48 and therefore can be certified if you test to the standards that they're doing you can still go ahead like we did and test

01:05:52 test the product to the standards and put it in a fire test to prove what would happen to the product over that duration and measure the different leakages but you could obviously not certify it

01:06:03 you could obviously not certify it because a certification is only for the three categories listed thank you paragraph eight or m in fact there is one further point

01:06:14 or m in fact there is one further point to refer to on this page further down in the additional section a note section this is the third block of tax from the bottom it says we strongly recommend that you discuss the

01:06:25 strongly recommend that you discuss the specific technical requirements of damper of the tempo the relevant authority to ensure that it is acceptable can you help us what what

01:06:33 what what was the purpose of that note uh the purpose the note is is a follow-on from uh that the answer is gave that the the product is not a ce mark product um the reason for it

01:06:45 a ce mark product um the reason for it is it has no harmonized european style to be able to be ce marked under um so therefore uh there was a construction product

01:06:54 product directive which changed to a construction product regulation in 2013. which then said that all the products put on the european market had to have a ce mark

01:07:06 market had to have a ce mark that had a harmonized european standard associated with it that was a change at 2013 from a regulation to a directive which meant it was mandatory now it

01:07:18 which meant it was mandatory now it wasn't just advised so that all of the fire dampers fire smoke dampers and smoke control dampers fell under a harmonized system and would

01:07:29 fell under a harmonized system and would have to be ce marked what we're saying here is is that this falls outside of that system there is no harmonized european standard and therefore if you want to use this product you must

01:07:40 if you want to use this product you must get it checked because it has no c formal ce marking not for the reason it doesn't want to have a formal ce marking just the fact that it falls outside of the group of products listed

01:07:51 the group of products listed within harmonized standard so would you expect

01:07:55 expect a cust a customer wanting to to install this damper in a residential building to go off and consult building control to say here is this damper it's not ce marked

01:08:07 here is this damper it's not ce marked it doesn't it's not certified are we okay to use this yes that's that's what we'd expect um it's um just my perception more than that i assume uh everything stops with building

01:08:18 uh everything stops with building control they seem to be the butt of everything as we move down the line that we pass every responsibility down to building control and go well not me us building control and if they say it's okay we're all okay

01:08:29 say it's okay we're all okay um i think that's just generally uh accepted in the industry that we do have a checker

01:08:34 a checker or if we needed to change away from a system or a system couldn't be put within

01:08:39 within you would need to get builder control to check and sign off and you would ask the expert of the building control to do that as far as you're aware in respect to the

01:08:50 as far as you're aware in respect to the grandfather inquiry project from information you or the assassin estimator was given was such a discussion ever discussed was such a discussion um going to take place or did take place

01:09:02 um going to take place or did take place with building control we would have no you would have no idea we would have no reference to that uh whitney your witness statement paragraph eight again don't need to go to you say that

01:09:14 again don't need to go to you say that after receiving this quote mr maloney requested further information about the series 54 damper including test results which was sent to him by email is that right that's correct

01:09:25 correct can we please go to that further information uh send by mr griffiths to mr maloney which is a gbl 705 at page two

01:09:38 uh this email doesn't have a date on it are you able to assist i am sorry yes uh i saw the the recording the other day and i noticed that myself so i went back and

01:09:50 i noticed that myself so i went back and checked

01:09:51 checked from memory it was the 17th of march 2015. yes thank you that's comfortable do you have any record from either documents or your discussion with mr

01:10:03 documents or your discussion with mr griff's

01:10:03 griff's about what prompted um this exchange of emails or

01:10:08 emails or requests for test documents uh no mark had no recollection of any specific conversation and advised that he would have been asked to provide the

01:10:19 asked to provide the testing documentation in your experience typically what would the purpose of providing such test results be is it for that ultimate check by building control which you mentioned or something else

01:10:30 mentioned or something else not necessarily um the damper itself

01:10:36 because it isn't certified um would show what the actual leakage criteria of the product is so whether it was 200 250 to 8 280 360 it it would actually show uh what

01:10:49 it it would actually show uh what leakage damper would perform ambient closed leakage this would then give the designer the ability to calculate how much air would be drawn through the shaft

01:11:00 would be drawn through the shaft when it when the damper was closed on a non-fire floor for example if you had a three-story building and the fire was on the ground floor

01:11:09 floor the dampers would open on the ground floor and evacuate the smoke the other two sets of dampers on the other floors would close you would then have a certain pressure either naturally or via a fan to then pull the air out of

01:11:21 via a fan to then pull the air out of the shaft

01:11:22 the shaft what then happens is there will be some leakage negatively into the shaft from the damper so in the other lobbies there will be a small amount of air that will escape through the holes in the damper

01:11:33 escape through the holes in the damper and up into the shaft so that would then tell the designer how much

01:11:37 much leakage from the other floors there would be so in the evidence previously around that the uh

01:11:44 the uh they needed three meters cube per hour i think it was for the open door leakage on the stairwell uh what they would do is it would start with a three meters cube per second and they would add leakage in of the specific damper that they'd chosen

01:11:56 specific damper that they'd chosen so if they've chosen our damper they would be able to see from the graph provided

01:12:00 provided to the size at what pressure drop the leakage would actually perform which is in the page of the the brochure itself and then add those up so that it may be for instance 20 liters a second per damper and then

01:12:12 20 liters a second per damper and then add those 20 liters a second to add up to a total amount of air volume required

01:12:17 required and then add on any extra leakage for any builder shaft leakage or anything else that they would have to take into consideration but that's why we provide the specific

01:12:29 but that's why we provide the specific data in the brochure and that the test shows that as well thank you that that's very helpful so effectively you you provide the data to enable a

01:12:40 enable a building-based assessment of whether your damper is sufficient because it hasn't been certified within one of the categories so that's awesome that's correct can we please now do i just turn the

01:12:51 can we please now do i just turn the page over to the page three please

01:12:55 we see there an exova um fire resistance test

01:12:59 test conducted generally in accordance with bsen one three six six to 1999 a multi blade damper sadly uh dated six of october 2011.

01:13:12 this probably goes without saying given you've exhibited this to your witness state mr jones but i don't think it specifies anywhere the actual model is this for the series 54 uh yes it is yes thank you can i ask you

01:13:24 uh yes it is yes thank you can i ask you to turn to page eight

01:13:30 at the bottom there instruction to test um

01:13:33 um the the request of gilbert's as the sponsor and mr r jones along with two other um gentlemen were

01:13:40 were witnessing and i assume that's you yeah that's correct uh and turning over to page 44 please

01:13:53 in fact i'm sure i do apologize one more question on that before i proceeded in addition to witnessing that test what was your involvement if any with the gilbert series 54 specifically

01:14:07 um i was involved in the design of the product

01:14:13 yes thank you okay and the sheet we see here and is that an information data sheet for the uh actuator we saw a picture of earlier thank you mr chairman

01:14:27 thank you mr chairman yes there is not a a ready break coming up in the questioning and given it's 50 a quarter past 11 this might be as good a time as i need just help us with this how much longer

01:14:39 just help us with this how much longer do you think you might require with mr jones that's not meant to be a hint that you should get on with it at all it's just that if you said only 15 minutes we might postpone the break until

01:14:51 postpone the break until a little late yes thank you mr chairman i

01:14:54 i i i do wish i was that concise but not on this occasion i'm afraid it'll be a little longer than that that's right i just thought we might combine some breaks but there we are um mr jones we we have a break during

01:15:07 um mr jones we we have a break during each session um so i think we'll take the morning break

01:15:12 break now um we'll come back at 25 to 12 and while you're out of the room i have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything

01:15:23 about your evidence or anything relating to it not not as i think you'll have much opportunity to do so all right so if you'd like to go to the usher we'll have you back at 25 to 12. thank you thank you very much

01:15:41 thank you very much this is 25 to 12.

01:38:09 would you ask mr jones to come back in

01:38:14 please

01:38:20 all right mr jones i'm sorry we kept you waiting a bit longer than i suggested but something had to be ironed out and we're now ready to carry on if you are

01:38:29 you are yes thank you yes mrs thank you mr chairman

01:38:33 chairman mr jones before we return to the test results i just want to pick up on something you said in answer to my question about the history of the series 54 and the smoke evacuation damper you said

01:38:43 said someone said the challenge to design such a damper is that right yes and who was that that was a a general industry discussion if you will um we've previously done

01:38:54 will um we've previously done um the series 50 51 52 53 and now we're on to iteration of the 54. um so the the history of the product is is probably 20 years old um the start of it was that

01:39:06 20 years old um the start of it was that um while my predecessor was involved with the smoke control association the question was asked you know can you produce a damper that would do x y and z um and uh

01:39:17 x y and z um and uh it was up to gilbert's either to take the challenge up or not go sorry we're not bothered or yes there will be a marketplace for it it's worth us investing uh putting the time and detail into the

01:39:28 uh putting the time and detail into the product

01:39:29 product to be able to make it a commercial viable product that the industry would purchase

01:39:33 purchase thank you i understand uh turning back to the x server test report so we were on

01:39:38 on gbl it's

01:39:41 gbl it's seven zeros five if we could go to page eight please

01:39:51 that's the page setting out the test procedure and i'd if we could focus it zoom in on the second paragraph second last paragraph in that

01:39:59 in that section introduction prior to the fire test being conducted and after establishing that the system leakage was lower than

01:40:11 leakage was lower than 12 cubic meters meters per hour the ambient temperature leakage of the damper was determined in addition the damper was subjected to 50 opening and closing cycles after which the damper showed no signs

01:40:22 after which the damper showed no signs of mechanical damage which could affect its uh operation uh we discussed earlier the 10 200 required for a smoke control damper in certain circumstances and

01:40:34 certain circumstances and was 50 wasn't it for uh the bs one three six six two yes correct and that's

01:40:40 that's uh so you before actually applying the high temperatures for the fire test you do that cycling um test for 50 cycles

01:40:49 cycles the recycling test is nominated by the standard that you're working to so if you wanted a smoke control damper as you're indicating you would have to get the 12101-8 smoke control damper standard

01:40:59 standard which states clearly you must test at least 10 000 cycles prior to doing the 1366.2 test and then the 50 as well on top of that when you go to the fire test on the day

01:41:11 test on the day uh can we turn to page 42 please could i just

01:41:14 just um i'm sorry to trump to you again mr my recollection is that you said earlier when you were discussing the development of the testing of the 54 damper

01:41:26 damper that you would do your own cyclical tests

01:41:30 tests and i thought you said you would test it to destruction and then see how many cycles it achieved absolutely correct yes that's what we did we on the day of the test we still had

01:41:42 we on the day of the test we still had to test the damper 50 times but we obviously didn't take the damper that we destroyed to the test we took a new damper and then tested that 50 times and put that in

01:41:52 in the original damper tested over 100 000 cycles

01:41:56 cycles so it was 10 times more robust than would have been needed in the smoke control application right thank you very much thank you mr chairman at page 42 please

01:42:08 and zooming in on the top box please thank you

01:42:11 thank you so that's the integrity leakage test and the threshold there is 360 and summarizing what it says there the test applied

01:42:22 test applied under pressure of 300 pascals plus -15 the specimen satisfied this criterion for the duration of 74 minutes yes that's correct so that's as again 60

01:42:33 that's correct so that's as again 60 minutes required yeah as i mentioned before the test was physically 74 minutes but if you wanted to try and classify it you can reclassify it to every 15 minute slots or half an hour slots depend on the standard

01:42:44 depend on the standard thank you if we go right down to the smoke leakage section so that's the ass ladder classification isn't it

01:42:52 isn't it yes smoke leakage failure in accordance with the performance criterion of leakage is deemed to occur when leakage for the

01:42:58 for the fire damper exceeds 200 cubic meters per hour meter squared measured after the first

01:43:03 first five minutes of the test duration so there's an ambient leakage test beforehand and then there is uh the first measure you take well that counts is after five minutes yes if it fails the uh ambient leakage

01:43:15 yes if it fails the uh ambient leakage in the first place uh then it's failed already uh but they still report on this test anyway um so we already knew before

01:43:24 before at this point that the damper would not achieve the final classification if it was to be classified because then it failed the ambient

01:43:32 ambient the ambient light a thousand pascals and the test specified again the same pressure

01:43:37 pressure range the specimen did not satisfy this criterion after the first five minutes but as you said it did by this stage it was uh all decided anyway i say it was not an aspiration for us at the time to achieve a smoke leakage for

01:43:49 the time to achieve a smoke leakage for this type of damper it was only to achieve an integrity to give some form of

01:43:56 integrity to the product to be able to be

01:43:59 be put into a fire test can i ask why wasn't it an aspiration to make this damper as smoke proof as

01:44:06 proof as you economically or practically could uh it would obviously be ideal to have no smoke leakage uh in any product in this situation but to practically manufacture a product um

01:44:18 to practically manufacture a product um that would be subjected to a fire test such as this um would be the fact that uh the furnace temperatures go from zero to uh over a thousand degrees within the hour

01:44:29 within the hour um what you have is an expansion of product and it being a metal product would expand a specific rate for the material therefore being a good number of millimeters expansion what would happen

01:44:40 millimeters expansion what would happen then is

01:44:41 then is during the fire test the blades would try and break out of the frame that were constricting it and therefore bow and bend and open up the 300 pascals under pressure on the test would then allow that to boat into the plenum box

01:44:53 allow that to boat into the plenum box away from the fire into away from the furnace as such and that would cause even more leakage and therefore would fail the integrity test

01:45:01 test if uh sorry the bespoke leakage test because the gaps would have been opening up at that point

01:45:09 and

01:45:12 if that's the case is it then your evidence that there are no fire and smoke dampers on the market that have passed this quite rigorous as you described test ies 60

01:45:23 test ies 60 certified uh there's as far as i'm aware um there are products that are trying to achieve this standard

01:45:34 standard i haven't specifically witnessed or seen any fire test reports that showed me that that's actually happened the the problem we have here isn't that we don't want to try and classify the

01:45:45 we don't want to try and classify the product at all the problem we have here is it's unclassifiable um so i have to make that distinction um it would be nice to be able to say that

01:45:56 would be nice to be able to say that the smoke evacuation damper could be but it doesn't have a standard that would suit the testing that it requires for its product usage what i'm trying to say there is that the

01:46:08 what i'm trying to say there is that the standard for the fire and smoke dampers the smoke control dampers um and the fireworks the fire dampers for those tests the test standard was written for those

01:46:19 the test standard was written for those there was an under pressure for those because there's a reason that you would have a pressure in a duct at a certain time that would then be needed to be defended against

01:46:29 against where you have the smoke evacuation dampers

01:46:33 dampers you have them open on the fire floor which means all the warm gases just trickle past and out into the shaft and wouldn't be subjected to the temperatures of the thousand degrees held within a piece of ductwork for

01:46:45 held within a piece of ductwork for instance

01:46:46 instance the temperature of the duct behind would typically be about 100 degrees this is just based on standard knowledge if you will from the industry

01:46:57 knowledge if you will from the industry that they say it gets to about 100 degrees

01:46:59 degrees as a throwaway temperature just to give a guidance what the fire test does is it goes up to a thousand degrees at the back of this product and then tries as well to pull off

01:47:10 tries as well to pull off uh 300 pascals an amount of air through the passages of the the damper itself so the actual usage of the product is uh very very small in comparison to the

01:47:23 very very small in comparison to the test it's being put under the test it's put on there is an extremely rigorous test for fire and smoke and fire dampers and fire smoke tampers

01:47:30 tampers this is a smoke evacuation damper whereas if we were to set up a standard for it and a new test on its own to be able to get a harmonized european standard then we would then have much different

01:47:41 then we would then have much different criteria to try and pass and fail against

01:47:44 against i understand what you're saying about achieving the certification but setting aside the certification was gilbert's trying to minimize the smoke leakage in this damper outside

01:47:56 the smoke leakage in this damper outside the certification process or not as much as it possibly could to achieve this

01:48:01 this pass rate for integrity we had to take the damper to test and we had to get some form of compliance that we could at least say and the industry wanted us to be able to

01:48:12 and the industry wanted us to be able to say

01:48:13 say yes you've managed to pass this onerous test

01:48:17 test more than a damp would ever see in its lifetime will be expected to see but at least you've managed to pass this test and that was the point that it had been

01:48:26 been treated and handled in an extreme way that it could then be by the fire officers and and the people designing the systems to say that smoke evacuation damper i'm

01:48:38 say that smoke evacuation damper i'm satisfied

01:48:39 satisfied that it would be a life safety system and be able to put into the building thank you before the break we looked at the quotation gilbert sent uh to uh those involved in the grenfell

01:48:52 uh to uh those involved in the grenfell tower project which said the dampers lasted over 60 minutes of both fire integrity and smoke leakage parentheses es60 but had no formal certification in light of your

01:49:03 no formal certification in light of your evidence and what we see on the page about the test it's not right is it that it lasted yeah for 60 minutes in terms of smoke leakage

01:49:14 leakage es60 you're absolutely correct yes that's an error and can you explain how this incorrect information came to be provided in both quotations sent in this case

01:49:25 both quotations sent in this case um i assume the quotation was a copy and paste from the brochure the brochure had indicated the fact that it was an es60 as well um that's the conclusion i can come to

01:49:36 um that's the conclusion i can come to i've no

01:49:37 i've no evidence on that but that's my best guess of how that occurred and was used as a copy and paste note within the quotation all those additional notes repeat themselves on all of our quotations

01:49:49 quotations so that that statement would be repeated do you accept that could have a misleading effect on either the the purchaser or for example building control who might be reviewing those uh

01:50:00 who might be reviewing those uh additional nodes as part of their assessment yes that i would accept that what i would like to caveat with if i could uh is the fact that no matter what we said in the brochure

01:50:11 matter what we said in the brochure the product that we provided was compliant with the smoke control association guidance recommendations and limitations from its inception thank you we will get

01:50:22 from its inception thank you we will get to the rca guidance and you'll be able to give your evidence in that paragraph 19 of your witness statement

01:50:29 statement i'm not going to read out in full but you refer to sending a supplement or rather in addition to documents provided to mr maorini you refer to a supplemental test document which was not provided

01:50:40 document which was not provided and you say that this report is a supplemental comfort test conducted to show that the damper when open and subject to elevated temperature would not collapse and would thus keep the damper airway clear

01:50:51 the damper airway clear yes can we see a copy of this report please at

01:50:56 gil6014 in fact i think that probably should be gbl

01:51:01 gbl gbl please rather than gl

01:51:10 i i do apologize it is jl i'm not sure not quite sure what it is but it is thank you very much this is a 20 page test report from bm trader dated 4th of october 2014

01:51:23 bm trader dated 4th of october 2014 it's marked confidential and says we can see in the in the headline a fire resistance task performed on a series 54 smoke evacuation damper conducted using principles of en 12 101

01:51:38 conducted using principles of en 12 101 2 2003 nxg without looking through the entirety of the report do you agree that this is not a report dealing with smoke leakage requirement

01:51:49 requirement it's not no and so it doesn't anyway remedy the failure that was seen on the observer report or the fact that the damper didn't pass

01:52:01 or the fact that the damper didn't pass the ask criterion yes it's nothing to do whatsoever this test is is simply a test uh when the damper is in the open position not the closed position uh to prove that the damp would remain

01:52:13 uh to prove that the damp would remain open on the fire floor while subjected to elevated temperature and the standard referred to here the yen12012

01:52:20 yen12012 that concerns natural ventilators only and not mechanical extract systems yes again because there is no set harmonized european standard that we can follow or test criteria for this product

01:52:32 test criteria for this product it was in discussion with customers that they would prefer a comfort test and this was suggested that we would go and have a comfort test to this standard i therefore reviewed that and said yes i would

01:52:44 that and said yes i would i would think that would be appropriate and they would be happy with me to be able to provide this evidence to them are you able to assess why this document wasn't provided to psb and js wright as part of this

01:52:55 and js wright as part of this transaction as i said the um the test there would be no reason not to provide it um i don't know the exact conversation um that mark had with um mr mahoney um

01:53:08 with um mr mahoney um that the would have um he may have asked for the

01:53:12 for the fire test report um and that was what was provided to him um not either of the specific one or the two he was just sent the fire test from the 1362 test

01:53:24 fire test from the 1362 test thank you now again going back to your witness statement i will again summarize if i may

01:53:28 if i may pack up snyder and tan you explain that gilbert's provided some addition additional task information to mr mani uh and then another quote was requested for the same project this time by js wright

01:53:38 wright and that quote was provided again by mr griffiths on 6th of may 2015. yes yes do you have any more information than you've already given us about conversations or contact around that

01:53:49 conversations or contact around that particular quote no i've spoke with mr griffiths and it was a standard email exchange which i've submitted that just asked for a quotation when the

01:54:01 that just asked for a quotation when the quotation was provided and without going to the document do you accept that quotation provided to js wright which just for the transcript is gbl seven

01:54:12 just for the transcript is gbl seven zeros nine contain the same additional notes we've looked at with the first one it did may we now please go to gpl708

01:54:33 uh page two please

01:54:39 it's a bit faint but in the top right corner we can see this is a another edition april 2015 uh of the brochure that we looked at before so it's right by the time that this um by by the time

01:54:52 by the time that this um by by the time the may 2015 quote was provided with additional notes uh this brochure was already in existence because it's april yes correct can we turn to page three please

01:55:04 can we turn to page three please and top of the right column if we may zoom in please and we'll look at some revised wording here the damper has undergone an en1366 part two tasks started from closed position and lasted over 60 minutes

01:55:16 position and lasted over 60 minutes for fire integrity but has no formal uh certification so is that an accurate summary yes this this this is the the current uh as well as the 2015 it's still current

01:55:27 well as the 2015 it's still current today

01:55:28 today uh the the uh the clarification was put in and

01:55:32 in and we added the testing that had been completed in 2014 um to the documentation to say that we'd added that comfort test as well and what that test uh provided with a b300 rating

01:55:43 rating are you able to assist why um the quote we just talked about doesn't contain the updated information from this brochure

01:55:55 information from this brochure as i said the only thing i can think is it's a copy and paste issue in relation to the specific additional notes that are added

01:56:01 are added um they're just a standard format if you will

01:56:05 will were incorrect in the first place and weren't corrected at the same time as a damper was corrected sorry there's a catalog was corrected and your your answers earlier uh you might have mentioned i might be wrong the 2013 brochure is that right

01:56:17 wrong the 2013 brochure is that right yes

01:56:17 yes yes and what is the status it's not a document i believe has been disclosed to the inquiry yes no i've provided to the inquiry and what was the tax in the 2013 version

01:56:31 what was the tax in the 2013 version i have it in the room and i know you have it somewhere but was it full has it been fully corrected as a as with the april 25th uh the the changed the major change i remember is that we

01:56:43 the major change i remember is that we added in the fact it was started from the closed position uh the original brochure didn't mention it was started from the close tradition the 2013 confirmed it was started from a closed position and then it's followed through here the

01:56:54 and then it's followed through here the closed position was the 2015 brochure we're looking at ever provided to jsride or psb i'm not aware we specifically issued it to them but it would have been available on the website from the date

01:57:07 available on the website from the date of april

01:57:08 of april sometime in april when it was issued are you able to say why it was an issue is that not a common practice it's just not a common practice [Applause] thank you um we will now go back to the

01:57:22 thank you um we will now go back to the the xova tests but only looking at some very limited specific issues um if we could go back to bs in fact um first go to bscn13662 which is bsi50829

01:57:35 first go to bscn13662 which is bsi50829 page 15 please

01:57:42 we could zoom in on the bottom uh two paragraphs please this sets out the position the testing procedure for the fire test for fire and fire and smoke dampers is

01:57:53 for fire and fire and smoke dampers is that correct or the part of it i think so yes in the first step set the fire damper into its open position and on the following page please

01:58:08 and see uh 10.4.3 with a fire damper fully open and then some some further stops so it was that one reason why well

01:58:20 so it was that one reason why well is that why the test that the damper could not be said to be compliant with the um this testing regime because it was tested not from an open but from a closed

01:58:31 not from an open but from a closed position that would be a reason if you were trying to classify it to that it's not able to be classified because it's not of that product grouping so you can't classify it under the 13501-3

01:58:43 13501-3 standard because it isn't one of the listed products in the three groups we're looking at of the fire dampers smoke fire dampers and smoke control dampers

01:58:52 dampers was there any other reason why you requested xoba to task from a closed position yes that's the normal expectation of the damper it would be in a closed position

01:59:03 a closed position and not subjected to elevated temperatures um therefore as i've mentioned it's on the non-fire floors that the damper would be in the closed position therefore receiving no heat at

01:59:15 position therefore receiving no heat at the start of any smoke signal or fire signal within the building

01:59:19 building so therefore in practice that's where the damper would actually be positioned in the closed position and then we then tested to start from there

01:59:28 there it would have been more onerous to start it from the open position because of expansion of materials if the damper was open for a period of time then what would happen is

01:59:40 happen is the damper blade could swell the frame could swell etc and then we'd have to watch out for more uh adjustments if you will of the the damper product itself um so the safest way um

01:59:52 um so the safest way um to test if you will from that point of view from gilberts was let's test it with a closed because that's its natural position

02:00:01 was there then a possibility that if tested from the open position um the swelling you described might have prevented the blades from operating as intended

02:00:10 intended absolutely correct yes the blades may not have been able to fully closed and sealed

02:00:14 sealed and therefore we wouldn't have got the integrity leakage we were looking for uh and therefore failed the test uh at that point the test would have been stopped and and would have all wasted our time

02:00:28 but um in a system which i i referred earlier where there's a joint environmental and smoke control system

02:00:36 system which was the case at grenfell tower where dampers might be in open position for environmental ventilation purposes if a fire then begins in those circumstances

02:00:47 circumstances you might have to close the damper in a way that involves increased temperature yes i can answer the question in two parts so the first is

02:00:58 question in two parts so the first is that the damper when we first designed it and tested it was designed not for any environmental we weren't asked at the time to make it an environmental damper so we made the evacuation damper as an evacuation damper from the closed

02:01:09 evacuation damper from the closed position

02:01:11 position uh if someone deemed uh um as a fire authority uh or a fire designer that they wanted to use this product

02:01:18 product then again that's that's up to them they would be able to tell from the report that uh the motor the actuator itself would close uh full open and close cycle

02:01:29 would close uh full open and close cycle within a minute as prescribed within the standard

02:01:32 standard that it should do which means if it was in the full open position for instance the worst it could be at that time it would take 30 seconds to close as a maximum

02:01:41 maximum okay so the fire engineer who designed who wanted to know whether it was applicable for a ventilation system as well

02:01:49 well would have to judge whether the temperature at the rear of the product on the non-fire floor would exceed the temperature relevant to the product within 30 seconds

02:02:00 seconds would you recommend the installation of the series 54 in a system that involved open dampers as a starting point as a possibility well we've not tested it in that position so my position is that i don't

02:02:12 position so my position is that i don't recommend that what i would say is that it would be up to the

02:02:17 to the individual designer to assess that and get an assessment and again i'll throw this back to the and check with builder control

02:02:24 control if that would be okay

02:02:28 thank you if we get to bag of 25 your statement next please here and again i'll summarize you refer here to the series 54 damper meaning the cold leakage test

02:02:39 meaning the cold leakage test at ambient temperature and you refer to clause 8.2.1.5 of the smoke control association guidance on smoke control to common escape routes 2015 which we'll go to shortly um

02:02:53 2015 which we'll go to shortly um let's look first at that test result if we may if we go to the test report gbl

02:03:02 seven zeros five please page five

02:03:13 thank you and uh that's the bottom box isn't it on the um in the table leakage during ambient temperature test 256.8 so that's over the 200 and that's a fail as you said earlier

02:03:25 a fail as you said earlier that classification yes so can you explain briefly what the purpose of that test is as distinct from the fire

02:03:33 fire fire test element

02:03:37 could you rephrase that sorry what is this what is leakage during ambient temperature intended to task in a real world situation

02:03:46 how much the damper would leak in a cold situation

02:03:50 situation for instance that if it was on a non-fire floor and they explained before about the fan pulling the negative pressure into the shaft

02:03:59 shaft it would then advise how much leakage off the non-fire force would occur and therefore you would then upgrade your fan accordingly to account for that leakage and would the ambient temperature in

02:04:11 and would the ambient temperature in this context uh include the increased temperature because of smoke rising through the shaft not at this time no this is ambient meaning it's at

02:04:21 it's at 20 degrees celsius so as far as the utility of this measure for a um a real world scenario where smoke is rising

02:04:30 rising through a shaft and there's closed dampers on levels between that and the extract point this wouldn't really give you much of an indication because the smoke there is much hotter isn't it yes the the the the reason that it's

02:04:43 yes the the the the reason that it's put there as far as i'm aware is again to advise the designer that uh at the test day that was the leakage of the product um that that occurred through that so he

02:04:54 um that that occurred through that so he could then do his own calculations from the testing at the ambient or he could uh use the brochure for the uh pressure drop versus uh liter a second leakage through the damper thank you well i think possibly

02:05:05 damper thank you well i think possibly the question may be whether the presence of hot smoke in the shaft would have any material effect on the leakage

02:05:16 effect on the leakage at ambient temperature or leakage figure at ambient temperature

02:05:22 uh that would be the leakage figure you would then have to access then haven't you

02:05:27 you so i'm sorry to interrupt you but you then have let's assume the 20 degrees on the

02:05:31 the in the lobby outside and a hotter atmosphere on the inside would that affect the leakage uh yes um if i can explain i think you're all aware of the the

02:05:43 i think you're all aware of the the diagrams that um barbara lane managed to put together the the storyboards um and if you can remember back there's there's a little graph that she showed about the 200 meters cube per hour there

02:05:55 about the 200 meters cube per hour there was a pass and fail line and at the start she started at the 258 up here

02:06:00 up here and after a short period of time the damper expanded uh and sealed some of its own holes therefore leaked less and that dropped below the 200 meters cube per hour that stayed there for about

02:06:11 about 50 minutes i think and then climbed back up away into the zone under the 360 meters cube per hour if you remember that diagram that shows that

02:06:19 that as the product warms then the leakage becomes less right thank you yes thank you mr chairman that would entail more smoke leakage than permitted during

02:06:30 more smoke leakage than permitted during particular periods of that cumulative test yes

02:06:37 sorry about that yes so as i understood what you were saying mr jones that over the longer period the average accumulative smoke leakage would actually be lower than what the

02:06:49 would actually be lower than what the certification requires yes yes but during certain periods of that process there would be uh significantly higher than uh well peaks peaks and troughs i

02:07:01 than uh well peaks peaks and troughs i suppose

02:07:01 suppose there would be some peaks during which more smoke would be coming through yeah when when our damper was tested uh it was shown to be um that it would leak at 256 meters cube per hour um

02:07:12 per hour um ambient which is over the 200 and below the 360.

02:07:15 the 360. uh it then drops below 200 for the majority of the time of the first hour and then falls out again at the the very end of that hour period so to its

02:07:27 hour period so to its benefit if you will if it's warmer uh then it leaks less i think we have to understand we're not talking here i think

02:07:36 think if i've understood you correctly about leakage of smoke out of the shaft you're talking about leakage of air into the shaft are you yes yes

02:07:47 thank you mr chairman

02:07:52 so yes we're looking at the sca guide and guide 2015 next which is r r b k um four zeros two nine three two

02:08:03 page forty eight please

02:08:13 thank you and we're looking at item three at the top of the page beginning of a fire damper i think that that's what you refer to in

02:08:24 i think that that's what you refer to in your witness statement mr jones a fire damper tested to en13662 but fitted with an on off actuator and no fusible link ambient closed blade leakage should not exceed 360.

02:08:35 exceed 360. at 300 pascal and this should be recorded in the test report do you want to to tell us please what what significance you attribute to this and how it applies to the gilbert's

02:08:46 and how it applies to the gilbert's series 54. this the the show is 54 passed exactly that test

02:08:53 looking at the elements of that fire damper tested to en13662 because your damper gilbert's series 54

02:09:04 because your damper gilbert's series 54 damper was not tested from open position it therefore wasn't tested to yen one three six six uh two was it but we didn't it did undergo the test the full test of 362 but started from the closed position

02:09:16 but started from the closed position see so your interpretation of a fire damper tested to that standard doesn't mean in accordance with all the conditions and standards oh and procedures of that standard

02:09:27 standard uh i understand what you're saying but the the fire damper underwent that test and we then confirmed that it was from the closed position

02:09:38 position yes i i suggest that that paragraph doesn't apply because the compliant procedure of en13662 wasn't undertaken during the server test

02:09:51 the fire damper was tested to en 136-2 and the paragraphs which we see eight paragraphs below in each case of the above those eight are conditions

02:10:02 are conditions for any of the three paragraphs about to apply is that right as a boy yes and just looking at condition four if you can help us with this when the product is deployed

02:10:13 with this when the product is deployed on the fire floor it must open and remain

02:10:15 remain open during the means of escape and firefighting mode do you see that yes so the part which says it must open um what do you say that

02:10:26 um what do you say that the series 54 demonstrated that uh ability

02:10:31 ability yes that's that's with the comfort test that we provided to prove that the product would open uh elevated temperatures see but the the comfort tasks we looked at which

02:10:42 the the comfort tasks we looked at which was to do with natural ventilators not mechanical smoke extraction system no but it's a test that we used to prove the ability for the product to be open

02:10:52 thank you um just one document uh and this is an omission on my part the 2013 brochure has been located i'll put it up now just so you don't have to go back to the show

02:11:04 so you don't have to go back to the show i think it's gil 6082

02:11:13 so we see august 2013 there can we go to the next page please

02:11:20 and zoom in on the text the top the damper has undergone and the n1366 part two test started from the closed position and lasted over 60 minutes for both fire integrity

02:11:31 over 60 minutes for both fire integrity and smoke leakage but has no formal certification so that do you accept that the uh the smoke leakage es60 element is still inaccurate in this one that is inaccurate and again the caveat

02:11:43 that is inaccurate and again the caveat is it was still it didn't actually matter because it was still in uh compliance with the smoke control station guidance of 2012 and 2015. thank you um lastly we're going to look

02:11:55 thank you um lastly we're going to look at some

02:11:56 at some other testing issues briefly and for that if we can please go to dr lane's report

02:12:02 report blarp 2 5 0 35 at page 233

02:12:14 and in fact i could go back one page please

02:12:18 please just so we can see the top uh so 6.5.116

02:12:26 uh dr late introduces the paragraph from the previous uh bag of saying the only test evidence i've seen today is one fire resistance test

02:12:34 test uh to bsen13666 and one fires since that's to

02:12:37 that's to en 1201.2 this is talking about uh the dampers gilbert's dampers the significance of this is that um and if we could turn to the next page now

02:12:49 next page now thank you the smoke control system used in grenfell tower incorporated a firefighter override and therefore the position of the damper would have had to be changed 25 minutes into a brcn 1366

02:13:00 into a brcn 1366 tan test whereas in one three six six two test the damper is closed within two minutes of the test starting and remains closed for the remainder of the test

02:13:10 the test the 1366 stand task is therefore more onerous in this regard because it requires to move requires it to move under higher temperatures do you accept that as a proposition

02:13:21 proposition uh gently yes yes and would you accept that it's important if the damper is intended to be usable by firefighters in high temperatures via a manual override

02:13:32 override that it is tested and can perform under these conditions i agree yes

02:13:40 and the bs en 13662 procedure therefore wouldn't have tested whether these dampers could open again at a higher temperature

02:13:49 sorry the series 54 dampers that were provided

02:13:52 provided 54 yes were never tested or intended for the application next document to turn to police is the arena report which is met 3072161

02:14:10 page 27 please and

02:14:17 and we're looking at the final paragraph of

02:14:20 of uh the conclusion section at the bottom please you could zoom in in rena's opinion based on product information the smoke damper actuators and the

02:14:29 and the um firefighters override switches which are of course not a matter for uh for you mr jones were not designed to withstand exposure to the heat from an ongoing fire as these units were

02:14:40 from an ongoing fire as these units were exposed in the lift lobbies it is likely the system had not been designed to function reliably in a scenario where significant heat or fire were present in these areas do you agree with rina

02:14:52 in these areas do you agree with rina that the

02:14:53 that the damper actuators had not been designed to function reliably in such a scenario

02:15:05 not specifically no the they've gone and undergone a test for an hour uh elevated temperatures through a furnace time temperature controlled uh test um

02:15:16 uh test um it depends on the expression of um the extension of of this um from the ongoing fire uh is the ongoing fire there's no

02:15:27 fire there's no the heat time or exposure definitions there

02:15:31 there um so i'm struggling to to to just agree with the opinion it's in general interview

02:15:36 interview yes

02:15:41 can you explain why the gilbert's dampers as tested in october 2011 were not tested with an actuator to control the opening or closing movement is the answer simply that you weren't intending to open or close them

02:15:53 weren't intending to open or close them at all

02:15:54 at all in that dust correct

02:15:58 and lastly just a few questions arising from

02:16:03 from the evidence of mr maorini earlier this week

02:16:06 week to the best of your knowledge did mr maori ask

02:16:09 maori ask gilberts about any other models or types of dampers no did he ask about are the dampers suitable for installation in a wall

02:16:20 installation in a wall no i'm aware of and at that time did gilbert's sell certified fire and smoke dampers i think your answer earlier was that

02:16:31 answer earlier was that you might you're aware some other companies might might sell something similar but do we take it from that that gilbert's didn't at the time not suitable for walls

02:16:41 walls and how significant a restriction is it that a damper has to be installed in a wall how how how how far does that narrow your range of available dampers

02:16:52 um the uh the the the smoke dampers fire damage could all be

02:16:58 all be placed in walls under certain fixing conditions and are tested as such under 1362 regime for that

02:17:09 as such under 1362 regime for that so they can all under undergo those tests

02:17:14 tests see so just because something just because you have a duct in a wall doesn't mean you can't install

02:17:21 install a any damper in it is that right it would have to be the damper suitable for how the damper was tested in the condition it was tested if it was tested in a wall

02:17:31 in a wall that he could use that damper in a wall situation

02:17:34 situation thank you mr jose just a final question given that the series 54 damper failed the smoke leakage requirement can you explain in what kind of scenario you anticipated being used

02:17:46 you anticipated being used uh in a smoke control system yes the the the reason for the the product in the design was that it would be put into a building it would be

02:17:55 be put onto the fire floors or all the floors of the building and be used as a smoke evacuation damper so that when there was a fire on the floor

02:18:07 floor of any one of the floors the trigger would be that a smoke control system would identify that floor and open that damper to allow the smoke and any gases on that floor to be evacuated

02:18:18 any gases on that floor to be evacuated through the shaft system be a natural or mechanical the dampers on all the other floors would remain closed and as far as smoke leakage through the

02:18:29 and as far as smoke leakage through the dampers on those other floors so the closed dampers does the failure or the non-certification of the smoke leakage condition not compromise their ability and practice to protect people

02:18:40 practice to protect people on the other side from smoke not at all no

02:18:43 no the shafts are under negative pressure so the smoke's going up the shaft not onto the fire on non-fire force the leakage is drawing air off of the non-fire floors

02:18:54 non-fire floors and up the shaft and away the only compromise there may be is that you have to design the fan or the exhaust system the natural ventilators to be able to pull and

02:19:04 pull and add that factor as your overall air volume to make sure that the fire floor is serviced correctly and the right amount of air is pulled off the fire floor

02:19:13 floor and that depends on the fan's functioning uh yes the negative pressure yeah and in this instance there's a fan system it could be a natural ventilator it could just be a shaft up a building

02:19:24 it could just be a shaft up a building thank you mr chairman those are all the prepared questions i had can i may we have uh may suggest 10 minute break for final questions very well well mr jones when council gets to the end of his questions we always have a

02:19:35 always have a short break to give him time to check that he hasn't left anything out and also to allow others who are not present in the room to suggest questions that possibly we should should put to you so

02:19:46 put to you so we'll break now for 10 minutes i can say half

02:19:49 half past 12 we may find we need a little longer but if we do there it is and then we'll see with uh there are more questions for you all right thank you very much and please don't talk to anyone about your evidence

02:20:01 don't talk to anyone about your evidence thank you

02:20:10 right i'm going to say how past 12 but slightly less than 10 minutes if you need more time just thank you mr chairman thank you

02:30:21 yes would you ask mr jones to come back in please

02:30:34 all right mr james we'll see if there are any more questions for you yes steve stitch

02:30:38 stitch thank you for the time mr chairman now no further questions well very good thank you very much thank you well then mr jones i think it only remains for me to thank you very much on behalf of

02:30:49 behalf of all three of us on the panel for coming to give us your evidence i think i can speak for all of us when i say we found it very interesting and very informative and we're very grateful to you for coming

02:31:00 grateful to you for coming all the way from blackpool which i imagine is where you start shop um to give us your time and tell us all about it yes thank you very much and that's all we have for you thanks for tuning in thank you

02:31:21 yes and misuses i think we have another witness waiting for us don't we yes mr cross smith i'm going to do a very quick swap with miss gray

02:31:29 gray well we need to rise for a short moment just to enable the arrangements to be made so we'll we'll uh do that and we'll come back in as soon as the usher comes to tell us you're ready for us thank you thank you

02:36:15 yes it's strange yes mr chairman can we have our next witness now please mr matt cross

02:36:20 cross smith yes thank you

02:36:29 good morning mr cross smith i understand you're going to make the affirmation i am yes but could you please then read the words on the screen i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm

02:36:40 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much please sit down make yourself comfortable

02:36:54 all right good yes we're strange when are you ready yes thank you can you give the inquiry your full name please yeah it's matthew cross smith thank you and

02:37:03 and um thank you very much for coming to assist the inquiry today with its investigations it's very much appreciated um i'm going to be asking you the questions today if you have any difficulty understanding anything i ask please just ask me to repeat the

02:37:15 ask please just ask me to repeat the question or put the point in a different way and if you can try and keep your voice

02:37:20 voice slow enough that the transcriber sitting to your right can take a nice clear note that would be great now you've made one witness statement for the inquiry um if we can go to it it's at max300

02:37:37 there we have it um we can see the date 9th of october 2018 in that top right hand side if we go on to page 28 there we can see uh the date again and

02:37:50 there we can see uh the date again and is that your signature it is and have you read your statement recently i have and can you confirm that the contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief i can thank you and have you discussed

02:38:02 i can thank you and have you discussed the evidence you're going to give today with anyone before coming here thank you now i'm going to start by asking you some questions about your background and your qualifications and experience and you've helpfully set out your

02:38:13 and you've helpfully set out your qualifications for us at paragraph two of your statement if we go to that on page one and you tell us that you're a chartered building services engineer

02:38:24 building services engineer with a master's degree in mechanical and automotive engineering you joined max fordham in may 2012 following two years in an engineering role at jaguar land rover

02:38:36 role at jaguar land rover and your title at the time was graduate engineer

02:38:39 engineer and then you go on to explain that during your time at max fordham you became a chartered engineer of the institute of mechanical engineers in february 2015 and then a partner in may 2016 is that correct

02:38:51 may 2016 is that correct that's correct and you also go on to tell us that you left max fordham in july

02:38:56 july 2016 although you continued to do some consultancy work for them until around september 2016. is that correct that is correct and do you continue to work as a building services engineer

02:39:08 building services engineer i work in the same field yes yes thank you

02:39:12 you and to what extent did any of the training that you received as you've summarized there relate at all to smoke control systems

02:39:23 relate at all to smoke control systems not directly no no no yeah um and if we can go to paragraph three of your statement

02:39:33 you tell us there that max fordham is a building services engineering firm providing services in the areas of electrical mechanical plumbing building physics lighting and acoustic design

02:39:44 design so there we have the kind of overall remit of max fordham as a firm and to what extent did your role while working at max fordham involved working

02:39:55 working at max fordham involved working on fire safety systems only in so much as it touched this particular project i see yeah so was this the only um smoke control project as well that

02:40:08 um smoke control project as well that you were involved in for max fordham yes yes and prior to working on the project at grenfell tower had you been involved in

02:40:19 grenfell tower had you been involved in any projects at all in any capacity which had involved the design or installation of a smoke control system um i started grenfell tower and i believe the first week that i joined max fordham

02:40:29 fordham yes um so no no thank you

02:40:37 now if we look at paragraph four of your statement now you explain that max fordham's involvement in the grenfell tower project

02:40:46 project began shortly before you joined the practice and you joined in late may 2012 and as you've just said you were assigned to work on it during your first week

02:40:56 week and is it right that you worked on the grenfell project for the whole time that you were with max fordham up until you left in july 2016. yes there was a pause of six to 12

02:41:07 yes there was a pause of six to 12 months i believe um between weber stages d and then the production of our employers requirements um but generally on and off throughout that period yes yes thank you

02:41:19 yes thank you and it would be would it be right to say and i'm now summarizing your evidence at paragus four and five of your statement that when you began working on the grenfell tower project you were working on the direction of mr andrew mcquatt

02:41:30 andrew mcquatt the project engineer is that correct that is correct yes and we've heard from him

02:41:34 him previously in module one of the inquiry's work

02:41:39 and is it also right was it your understanding that when max fordham first started working on the grenfell project this was on the understanding that the tmo's intention was to have the same team

02:41:50 intention was to have the same team of contractors working for them as had worked on the calc the kensington academy and leisure center project that was the original intention yes which had included max fordham yes now paragraph um

02:42:03 yes now paragraph um five of your statement on page two you go on to describe how your role in the grenfell project developed and you explain that around the time that ledbetter left the project you became

02:42:17 ledbetter left the project you became involved so um picking it up in the fourth line you say around may 2013 ledbetter left the project during approximately the same period internally the project moved down to the

02:42:29 internally the project moved down to the london office of max fordham and duncan campbell took over a senior partner

02:42:34 partner my involvement increased and i became the main point of contact for the tmo i would typically deal with the day-to-day issues consulting with duncan as required on technical details and reviews

02:42:45 reviews while duncan would deal with contractual issues such as the scope of our appointment and fees duncan and i together produce the employer's requirements for the services and following the

02:42:56 for the services and following the appointment of ryden i carried out some visits to site witnessed some of the commissioning and attended some site meetings as required under our contract i left the project when i left max fordham in july 2016

02:43:09 fordham in july 2016 shortly before the award of practical completion so that's a nice neat summary of the development of your role on the project is that correct that is correct

02:43:20 and how often were you on site at grenfell tower as part of that role so initially during the early design stages so

02:43:29 stages so from prior to the the um appointment of the general contractor um we were on site as required for inspections to understand the existing

02:43:40 inspections to understand the existing systems

02:43:40 systems yeah um i would say maybe approximately once a month yes of that sort of order um and then after

02:43:49 after the award to the general contractor um we were then contracted for 12 site visits during the period from that point through to completion of the project so i believe we stuck

02:44:00 we stuck pretty much to that 12. yes i see and those site visits you were then reporting back to your client who remained the tmo yes correct yes so you were client-side throughout

02:44:11 throughout yes we were retained by the client as an advisor

02:44:15 advisor the majority of the rest of the design team were novated directly to the contractor yes thank you that's helpful now if we look at paragraph six of your

02:44:26 now if we look at paragraph six of your statement on page two you tell us what were the primary objectives of the project and you say that they were to as far as max fordham were concerned they were to replace the inefficient heating and hot

02:44:38 replace the inefficient heating and hot water system to improve the thermal efficiency of grenfell tower and to tackle an existing overheating issue within the tower now is it right to say that the smoke

02:44:50 now is it right to say that the smoke control system was a secondary aspect of the project

02:44:56 the smoke control system was not initially part of the scope of the project

02:45:00 project yeah it entered the scope at a later date

02:45:04 date just prior to our issue of stage of our stage c report i believe um but when it did enter the project it was

02:45:11 was equally important to all other aspects of it yes

02:45:15 of it yes thank you that's helpful

02:45:21 now just carrying on with your involvement with the the system at grenfell tower if we go to paragraph 29 of your statement now on page 11

02:45:32 and looking at the specific work that you did in relation to the smoke control system

02:45:39 you tell us this you say that max fordham was responsible for developing the design up to stage d writing the employer's requirements for the system to be further developed by the contractor

02:45:51 further developed by the contractor so that would be ryden yes correct and was involved in assisting the architect and

02:45:56 and employers agent in discussions with building control on proposed strategy prior to detailed design by the contractor is that correct that's correct

02:46:05 correct so where you talk about the architect that would be studio e and would it be artelia

02:46:09 artelia the employer's agent yeah initially apple the ads and then they changed their name to artelia yes same company and then you say the fire strategy including setting out which areas required to be served by the

02:46:21 which areas required to be served by the svs that smoke ventilation system yes correct

02:46:24 correct and overall design principle of the system was set by the fire engineer x over so is it right that in general terms

02:46:33 terms max fordham carried out some initial design work for the smoke control system including writing a section for that in the employer's requirements that are then tended out

02:46:45 requirements that are then tended out and that was intended for then a more specialist contractor to develop further is that a fair summary that is a fair summary correct yeah and was it always envisaged that a

02:46:56 yeah and was it always envisaged that a more specialist smoke control contractor would be engaged at some stage down the line to develop the initial design work that you did

02:47:07 design work that you did that was certainly our recommendation yes and who did you make that recommendation too i believe um we made that recommendation to the contractor at the point where the contract was awarded to ryden yes

02:47:19 awarded to ryden yes i see so you recommended to them at that point that they needed to get a specialist smoke control system designer on board to develop the design is that correct yes we introduced the contractor ryden i

02:47:31 yes we introduced the contractor ryden i believe simon lawrence right and to psp who we had been speaking with up to that point yes and we'll come to it in a moment and it's right isn't it that when you were writing the employer's requirements

02:47:42 writing the employer's requirements you were taking some initial advice from psb

02:47:47 psb correct advice from psb and also from x over the fire engineer yes thank you

02:47:58 yes now just some brief questions about the regulatory requirements which applied

02:48:04 applied to the refurbished smoke control system at grenfell tower um did you yourself ever have cause to consider

02:48:11 consider what the functional requirements were of the building regulations certainly in relation to fire safety that you were designing the system for did you ever apply your mind to that yes

02:48:22 did you ever apply your mind to that yes and what were those functional requirements that you were designing the system to meet those were as laid out in approved document b yes so would that have included included

02:48:33 so would that have included included functional requirement b1 on means of escape correct which provides that the building should be designed so there's appropriate means of escape in case of fire yes correct although also to be noted this

02:48:45 correct although also to be noted this was a refurbishment project so there was a within the building regulations there is a provision within there for a refreshment project to make a such an existing situation no worse

02:48:57 a such an existing situation no worse than it currently is yes i understand you're talking about the non-worsening yes correct um but in just in terms of what you were to make

02:49:06 to make not worse it's the functional requirements you have to make not worse that's correct isn't it it's the performance of the existing system relative to the functional requirements yes correct yes and again

02:49:18 yes correct yes and again another relevant functional requirement would be requirement b5 wouldn't it the design and construction so as to provide reasonable facilities to assist firefighters correct

02:49:29 firefighters correct yeah and what about um b3 that's functional requirement b3 on internal fire spread which requires consideration of for example compartmentation and smoke spread within the building

02:49:41 spread within the building did you have that in mind when you were carrying out your preliminary design work

02:49:45 work um b3 was certainly referenced we would reference b1 b3 and b5 typically as building services engineers yes so yes we would have referred to that yes thank you

02:49:56 and to what extent when you began developing the proposals for the smoke control system at grenfell tower to what extent did you have a look at the guidance that there was in approved document b on fire safety

02:50:10 i mean i reviewed the relevant sections of approved document b at the time you did yes yes just let's quickly remind ourselves if we go to pre-document b which is at clg

02:50:23 pre-document b which is at clg 50224

02:50:26 50224 and if we go within this this is the addition that would have applied at grenfell tower if we go within that to page 31

02:50:37 to page 31 we can see

02:50:40 at um actually it begins on the perhaps we have to pick it up the page before 30 at 2.2.5 we get a section on smoke control of common escape routes

02:50:51 control of common escape routes and it makes clear there despite the provisions described in this approved document it is probable that some smoke will get into a common corridor or lobby from a fire in a flat if only because the entrance door will

02:51:02 if only because the entrance door will be opened when the occupants escape and then over the page there should therefore be some means of ventilating the common corridors lobbies to control smoke and so protect

02:51:13 lobbies to control smoke and so protect the common stairs this offers additional protection to that provided by the fire doors to the stair

02:51:19 stair and then in parenthesis it says the ventilation also affords some protection to the corridors and lobbies now can you recall um being aware of these provisions within approved document b

02:51:31 provisions within approved document b yes yes and we can see that it goes on it says this can be achieved by either natural means in accordance with paragraph 2.26 all by means of mechanical ventilation

02:51:43 all by means of mechanical ventilation as described in paragraph 2.27 so were you aware that there were in approved document b it just distinguishes between these two types of systems a natural smoke ventilation system and a

02:51:54 system and a mechanical smoke ventilation system you're aware of that yes and at 2.27 we can see it says as an alternative to the natural ventilation provisions in 2.26

02:52:07 ventilation provisions in 2.26 mechanical ventilation to the stair and or corridor lobby may be provided to protect the stairs from smoke and that guidance on the design of smoke control systems using pressure differentials

02:52:18 differentials is available in that british standard bsen12101

02:52:22 bsen12101 part 6 2005. did you ever we'll come on to it later did you ever have a look at that british standard

02:52:31 standard it's the only british standard that's mentioned there in relation to mechanical ventilation systems i did yes and did you read it at the time you were working on the grenfell project

02:52:42 working on the grenfell project yes thank you

02:52:53 now just having a look at something within that british standard for a moment if we could go to rbk3045054

02:53:08 this is that british standard it contains a specification for pressure differential systems and at page 57

02:53:20 at section 9.1 at the bottom it explains what the objective of a depressurization system is and

02:53:31 system is and three lines into that it says it is important to note that there's no protection of any part of an escape route

02:53:37 route within the depressurized space itself which may be entirely filled with smoke or may even be fully involved in a fire this constitutes a fundamental difference between depressurization

02:53:49 difference between depressurization and smoke exhaust ventilation do you see that there now do you remember um being aware of um the differences that this guidance

02:54:00 of um the differences that this guidance was drawing between [Music]

02:54:03 [Music] smoke exhaust ventilation systems and depressurization systems did you ever have to did you yourself ever have to grapple with that i don't recall personally yeah grappling

02:54:16 i don't recall personally yeah grappling with that um i believe we were reliant somewhat on the advice from x over as fire engineer and psb

02:54:27 x over as fire engineer and psb as specialist designers in order to steer us towards the most appropriate measure

02:54:32 measure yes i understand thank you

02:54:36 and just let's look at another british standard

02:54:39 standard for a moment just briefly this is bs triple nine one two thousand and eleven if we could go to that bsi 50621

02:54:53 this is a british standard publication fire safety in the design management and use of residential buildings code of practice

02:55:00 practice do you remember ever consulting this code of practice as part of your preliminary design work yes i do yes and um if we go to page 73 of this

02:55:18 at paragraph 26.2.5 in the second paragraph down we can see it says a mechanical smoke ventilation system

02:55:28 system should demonstrate equivalent or better conditions in the lobby or corridor and stairs than the natural ventilation system that it replaces do you see that i see that and were you

02:55:40 do you see that i see that and were you aware of that piece of guidance and and that principle when you were looking at the grenfell tower system

02:55:51 i don't i can't recall whether i was aware of it at the time i think i would probably have made that assumption regardless of being aware of that guidance

02:55:59 guidance yes i understand and then at note 1 below we can say we can see that it says this is usually shown by a comparative computational fluid dynamics analysis

02:56:10 computational fluid dynamics analysis and that's sometimes referred to as a cfd analysis isn't it it is yeah and can you just help us in very brief terms what is a cfd analysis um it's basically a

02:56:24 analysis um it's basically a a computer and simulation of the movement of a fluid in this case a gas um and an understanding of how that gas would behave in certain conditions and those

02:56:36 behave in certain conditions and those conditions are you typically typically include you know either movement through pipes or movement within a plenum or a volume yes thank you and was cfd analysis something you

02:56:48 you and was cfd analysis something you became familiar with as you started working for max fordham um i never undertook any cfd analysis whilst at max forum i see were you aware that this guidance makes clear that um

02:57:01 makes clear that um for a mechanical smoke ventilation system

02:57:05 system showing that it was equivalent or better than any natural system it replaced was usually shown by a cfd analysis were you aware of that

02:57:16 again i don't recall whether i don't believe i was aware from this specific document

02:57:21 document um i think i would typically have been aware that cfd would be one way of demonstrating how smoke moves for fire engineering purposes yes and there would be other ways that you

02:57:32 and there would be other ways that you could demonstrate that as well wouldn't there

02:57:35 there yeah yes there are other ways yeah including possibly just calculations hand calculations is that correct it's correct but it would depend upon the complexity of the

02:57:46 the complexity of the the situation that you were looking at as to as to what the relative accuracy may be

02:57:50 may be yes thank you

02:57:54 now um did you ever come to look at something called the smoke control association guidance during the time you worked on the project i don't recall referring to that no

02:58:10 um

02:58:14 so does it follow that you didn't understand at the time that where an alternative solution

02:58:22 solution is being adopted for smoke control outside

02:58:25 outside the prescriptive methods that we see in say the british standard we looked at before 12101 part 6.

02:58:33 you didn't under did you not understand that the sca guidance recommends that there should be a method agreed by which you're going to assess its performance

02:58:44 assess its performance was that something that was ever discussed

02:58:47 discussed um as i just said i wasn't aware i didn't refer to the sca guidance at the time so if if that specific wording is within that then yeah i wouldn't have been aware of it i understand

02:58:59 aware of it i understand um so nobody on the project ever discussed the provisions of the sca guidance is that is that fair in terms of with you with me personally

02:59:10 me personally yeah no but obviously i can't speak for understand that's helpful mr chairman i think that's a good moment to pause and take our lunchtime break thank you so do i

02:59:20 so do i yes well then mr crossman i've only just got into the witness box but now i'm forever going to send you out again because

02:59:28 because i think we'll have a break for everyone to have some lunch we'll resume at two o'clock please and uh i say this to all witnesses please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it

02:59:39 evidence or anything relating to it over the break all right thank you very much we'd like to give the usher then please thank you

02:59:53 thank you very much two o'clock then please