Harley Evidence - Tuesday 8th September 2020 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:39 good would you ask mr bailey to come back in please thank you

00:00:57 right mr bailey ready to carry on yes very good thank you very much yes mr bailey is still on the subject of design and design responsibility can i ask you please to go to your witness statement at page 28.

00:01:11 to your witness statement at page 28. i'd like us to look together please at paragraph 112 on that page it starts on the page before um

00:01:18 before um but uh you you say there

00:01:24 um

00:01:28 uh uh perhaps we should start at the the page before actually so we should just go back to that page page 27

00:01:37 page 27 um you say i believe the reynold bond acm is compliant for a number of reasons that's the context and then over the page back at page 28 you say

00:01:52 page 28 you say about halfway down um

00:01:57 as far as harley we're concerned do you see that it's a very long passage and quite difficult to find it's just below halfway down you say as far as harley we're concerned alcoa now iconic we're well aware of the grenfell project

00:02:08 grenfell project and what the rayner bond acm is being used for having reviewed harley drawings for the grenfell project alcoa now iconic

00:02:16 iconic never raised any concerns or questions about its use you see that and then you go on to say

00:02:30 cep one of the largest acm panel fabricators in the uk who supply acn panels to many other subcontract many other contractors and cladding companies were also involved in discussions about the use of ac rayner bond acm

00:02:42 the use of ac rayner bond acm and supplied this material for the project cep did not raise any concerns about the use of brainerd bond acm for the project now i read that all to you are you suggesting here that arconic

00:02:54 suggesting here that arconic or cep had some sort of responsibility for the design of the cladding system

00:03:02 not for the design of the cleaning system but if they are supplying a product

00:03:07 product that they believe to be uh dangerous they would have told us

00:03:15 all right or the product wasn't appropriate for the user told us yeah the reason i ask about design is because you say having rude having reviewed harley drawings for the

00:03:26 having reviewed harley drawings for the grenfell

00:03:27 grenfell project alcoa never raised any concerns or question and nor did cep is your reference to drawings which prompts the question

00:03:36 you see yes it's it appears that you're saying that because maybe this is wrong but because uh harley drawings were seen by

00:03:47 uh harley drawings were seen by alcoa and cep and they never warned uttered any warning about those drawings that somehow indicated to you that they

00:03:58 that somehow indicated to you that they were acceptable is that what you're saying

00:04:01 saying yes so you are suggesting that arconic or cep had some sort of responsibility for the design of the cladding system

00:04:12 i think the use of those panels on the building yes that's a slightly different question

00:04:19 question what is it you are saying to be crystal clear

00:04:23 clear arconic and cep had responsibility for for

00:04:32 approving the use of the renault bond product in that application i see

00:04:45 you then say it paragraph 42 it's earlier on it page 11 of your statement if we can just go to that please and this is on page 11 4 lines up from

00:04:57 and this is on page 11 4 lines up from the bottom uh you say page 42 paragraph 42 i would have expected alcohol comic or cep to i have

00:05:08 alcohol comic or cep to i have identified any significant issue with the design or choice of materials

00:05:14 materials no concerns were ever raised by them as to the use of their product for the refurbishment of grenfell tower [Applause] what was your expectation there expressed

00:05:24 expressed based on

00:05:29 if if the material wasn't approved to be used they would have told us right in if you talk about the specific reference

00:05:37 reference to design that is the fabrication design of the panel as a as opposed to the design of the cloning system can you explain that distinction in

00:05:48 can you explain that distinction in brief terms when we make a when a panel is made it's routed it's folded there are size limitations on it

00:06:00 limitations on it there are bending angles um limitations and there are thickness wall thicknesses in terms of the hook on position so if some of that some of those fabrication details

00:06:13 some of those fabrication details weren't appropriate they would have warned us

00:06:17 warned us so these are the fabrication details specific to the grenfell tower project are they

00:06:21 are they yes i see so you were relying were you on cep

00:06:25 on cep and the manufacturers particularly uh rayna bond to warn you if the product wasn't suitable for the project is that what you're telling us yeah we believed it was

00:06:36 believed it was let's be clear but if there was some reason that it wasn't we would have expected renabon in particular to say do not use this product was it your understanding at the time

00:06:49 understanding at the time that reino bond would take renault bond uh itself understood that it had assumed responsibility for the appropriateness of the panels whether the design of the panels or the

00:07:00 whether the design of the panels or the product and materials themselves for use on the grenfell tower project yes

00:07:06 yes what is it that led you to have that understanding about what they thought because they seen the project they know how big it is you know where it is

00:07:18 know where it is they are actively they were actively talking to the architects before we were ever involved with the project um

00:07:30 project um so yeah i mean that's that's why we believe that

00:07:39 they have approved and recommended their product for that job was it normal for harley to rely on the warnings or absence of warnings from the

00:07:50 warnings or absence of warnings from the manufacturer and seller of materials to be used in a cladding system

00:07:56 system in order to satisfy itself that they were safe

00:08:00 were safe we looked at the bba certificate for the product

00:08:04 product to satisfy satisfy ourselves that they're safe but if renabond knew something that we didn't as the manufacturers we would then expect them to tell us

00:08:17 we would then expect them to tell us can we look at harley's quotation and we're switching topics we're going to come back in due course to the bba certificate for raynaud so i'm not leaving that there just so you know

00:08:29 not leaving that there just so you know and i want to turn to your quotation again we've seen it it's har3010155 and i'd like to go to page 12 please

00:08:41 and i'd like to go to page 12 please and this is

00:08:44 under the tender conditions it's part of the tender conditions and under the heading technical

00:08:52 and paragraph six you'll see it says uh if harley has have not been engaged as the paid facade concept designer we cannot control the likelihood that

00:09:03 we cannot control the likelihood that the priced facade solution will be suitable for the client the risk for non-compliance must logically rest with the paid facade concept designer harley will simply price the to the prescriptive drawings and

00:09:14 to the prescriptive drawings and specifications would you agree that in this case you were the paid facade concept designer no why is that we didn't the facade concept came from

00:09:27 the facade concept came from the architect

00:09:31 so you say studio e was the paid facade concept designer yes to your understanding at the time did studio e know that i don't know

00:09:46 you see looking at clause 6

00:09:51 you say if harley haven't been engaged as a paid concept design facade concept designer we cannot control the likelihood that the priced facade solution will be suitable for the client

00:10:02 client are you saying that you didn't know or couldn't control whether the facade solution you were pricing was suitable

00:10:13 solution you were pricing was suitable for ryden as your client

00:10:30 no i think what we're saying there is if something has been missed um from the concept designer and we haven't picked it up that's not

00:10:41 picked it up that's not um that is something that we would reprice

00:10:44 reprice later did you yourself take any steps or did you know of anyone in harley who took any steps to tell studio e or ryden that because you weren't the

00:10:55 weren't the paid facade concept designer you were not in a position to control whether or not the priced facade solution was suitable for the client no

00:11:09 for the client no other than this clause here if harley had been the facade paid facade concept designer what would it have done differently from what it did

00:11:26 it it may well have used um different products um a different layout um

00:11:39 a different layout um so we would have been starting as a paid facade concept designer back in 2012 or 2013. at the stage that we were

00:11:50 or 2013. at the stage that we were involved with it the materials had been set out in the mbs so we had it was a prescriptive

00:12:01 design that we were working to

00:12:06 can you in the light of that answer go back please to page two of this document

00:12:15 page two uh where mr albuster who's presenting this quotation to ryden says in the second paragraph we saw it earlier our offer includes

00:12:26 offer includes for the design supply and fix of a complete envelope package it doesn't say uh we are we are not developing the facade concept and we're not

00:12:37 and we're not being paid for the concept as a paid facade concept designer

00:12:45 designer can you explain how the two reconcile the

00:12:49 the the concept design is done before we were involved that's done by studio e who um

00:12:58 passed the design out to a number of tendering main contractors who then go to a number of subcontractors so the we couldn't be the facade concept designer because

00:13:13 concept designer because we're we're a subcontractor to a main contract tenderer so we can only price what has been developed before we became involved

00:13:25 involved and and having a design developed to the point at which you become involved do you at least accept this that from that point on when pricing for the design supply and

00:13:37 when pricing for the design supply and fix of a complete envelope package harley could control within the scope of the complete envelope package for which it was responsible for the design the suitability of that design for the

00:13:49 the suitability of that design for the client

00:13:51 client well the key components to that were selected by others you see mr alberston is presenting this quotation on behalf of harley as

00:14:02 quotation on behalf of harley as a quote for the design of a complete envelope package not part of it so my question again is how do you reconcile your um distinction between being a paid

00:14:14 your um distinction between being a paid faculty concept designer and not with what he's quoting for here as design of a complete envelope package because the concept

00:14:25 because the concept design is done long before we're involved and we are taking that concept design

00:14:30 design into a package of cladding that's put on the building let's look on then paragraph 167 of your statement

00:14:41 on then paragraph 167 of your statement at page 42 please

00:14:47 167 this is an answer to a question and the question i'll read to you did anyone at harley form a view as to whether the design of the facade complied with the relevant building regulations and associated guidance

00:14:59 regulations and associated guidance in particular the parts of the building regulations relevant to fire safety and your answer is in terms of fire safety and design what was important to us

00:15:07 us was the choice of materials and cavity barriers as to that i explained in answer to 10 question 10a above we formed the view that the design was compliant now do you accept that in order to as

00:15:19 now do you accept that in order to as you put it form a view that the design was compliant from a fire safety perspective harley would have positively to make an assessment of fire safety and compliance in respect of each and every material

00:15:30 in respect of each and every material component

00:15:30 component in the system yes yes now if we look at page 10 i'm saying sorry if you look at question 10a on the previous page page 41

00:15:42 you are asked

00:15:45 there what consideration was given to the compliance of the design with the relevant building regulations and associated guidance and you answer at page paragraph 166 you say

00:15:58 paragraph 166 you say in the third line we would not have used materials which were not compliant or safe

00:16:02 safe nor would we have designed an external facade which was not compliant or safe at no stage does anyone raised questions or concerns about either the materials used or the design of the external facade

00:16:13 do you accept that that answer doesn't actually tell us what actual consideration harley actually gave to compliance does it doesn't do that

00:16:27 no no so can i ask the question what consideration itself independently did harley itself actually give to compliance

00:16:38 actually give to compliance of the design with the relative relevant building regulations and associated guidance

00:16:45 guidance we checked the bba certificate for the for renabond which is classo and we checked

00:16:56 which is classo and we checked the

00:17:00 the celetex details and believe that that was compliant as well

00:17:12 right but we'll come back to those in due course now um can i then ask questions about a slightly different topic but still about scope of your work and that's windows

00:17:23 scope of your work and that's windows um if you go to paragraph 29 of your statement it's page seven you say

00:17:31 you say between the end of january the beginning of february 2014 harley submitted a number of quotations for the external envelope work for the grenfell project in support of a number of tenders

00:17:42 of tenders submitted by potential main contractors weights mulally construction keep moat and durkhen which included ryden

00:17:51 then you go on to say these quotations were all identical and included as requested alternative options for cladding panels window types and window reveals as part of a value engineering quotes on quotes exercise ie providing

00:18:03 quotes on quotes exercise ie providing different costing options for the client for budgetary purposes um

00:18:10 and then yes so we'll look at paragraph 33 in a minute my first question is is it right that harley was initially requested to quote for work to replace the windows

00:18:22 to quote for work to replace the windows uh yes yes um then let's look at paragraph 33 on page 8.

00:18:30 you say there at the bottom whilst work in relation to internal window reveals was quoted at 4 at this stage

00:18:38 excuse me this work did not form part of the final contract which was agreed at around 2.6 million pounds ryden had indicated that this work would be carried out by another contractor although in april 2015 ryden would

00:18:50 although in april 2015 ryden would return

00:18:51 return to harley to ask us whether we would carry out the work did you or anyone else have hardly make any inquiries as to who it was who was going to be undertaking the work in respect of the internal internal

00:19:02 in respect of the internal internal window reveals

00:19:08 did you does it follow that you didn't know whether um the work that they were going to be doing included design work on the internal

00:19:15 internal window reveals or whether it was just product procurement don't know do you know whether any meetings were held between the subcontractor undertaking the internal window works

00:19:26 window works and harley to ensure that nothing was missed

00:19:29 missed between the two there were no meetings there were no meetings do you know how work was divided up as between the installers working on the facade for harley

00:19:38 harley on the one hand the envelope and those working on the internal window reveals themselves the harley work finished with the windows and the

00:19:49 windows and the epdm to the side of it does that tell us that in fact there was no coordination between the trades no right

00:19:58 so just to clarify that because we were independent of the internal finishes um

00:20:10 it was only once we'd finished the area was free to for the eternal finishes guys to carry on

00:20:17 on regardless whether we were there or not

00:20:26 maybe but i think the answer to my question is there was no coordination no either on site or off-site no no can i ask you to look at a statement of mr dixon mark dixon from sd plastering

00:20:38 sd plastering uh that's at sdp 50196 and i'd like to go to page three paragraph 13 of his statement he says there under the heading

00:20:49 he says there under the heading instructions to refurbish the internal window surrounds uh in or around april 2015 he says i was asked by an employee of ryden whose identity i cannot recall with certainty if sdpl would provide a

00:21:01 certainty if sdpl would provide a quotation

00:21:01 quotation for undertaking cosmetic works in finishing off the surrounds to the newly installed windows in each residential unit of grenfell tower okay um and then he sets out who he

00:21:13 okay um and then he sets out who he dealt with there

00:21:16 and uh if you go on in the statement to paragraph 29 that that's by way of background for your benefit if you go to paragraph 29 at page six he then says this sdpl

00:21:29 he then says this sdpl initially experienced difficulties undertaking the works due to the fact that amongst other things stpl was reliant on harley having removed the old glass window panes from the old window aluminium window frames

00:21:41 window frames and installing the new glass window panels in the new window frames the glass works he as he defines them before the works could commence consequently on the 29th of may 2015 i circulated the proposed sequence of

00:21:52 circulated the proposed sequence of works for the completion of the works to write and site manager daniel osgood with a view to streamlining the relevant processes and procedures so as to enable sdpl to complete the works within ryden's program of work

00:22:03 ryden's program of work now in terms of the installation of the windows themselves is it right that that remained part of harley's work yes yes

00:22:11 yes and similarly any cavity barriers which were to be installed in or around the window cavity externally yes externally and what about the gaps left by moving the window

00:22:22 the gaps left by moving the window frames

00:22:22 frames forward of the concrete curtain wall to sit within the cladding that was harley's responsibility no the internally that was the um the window linings

00:22:34 that was the um the window linings would close that internally that was the window

00:22:38 window linings would close that so with the windows pushed out to sit in the cladding beyond the concrete curtain wall physically

00:22:50 the concrete curtain wall physically where did harley's responsibility end and sd plasterings begin sd's platforms began closing the gap between the back of the

00:23:01 closing the gap between the back of the window to

00:23:02 window to the concrete did you ever have a discussion either with ryden or with sd plastering themselves about what materials and products were to be used on the inside of the windows

00:23:13 on the inside of the windows where they met the edge of the work that you had done no did you ever take any steps to understand what it was that ryden or sd

00:23:25 understand what it was that ryden or sd plastering were intending to do in respect of the areas around the windows on the inside where they met your work no

00:23:33 if you didn't know what was going around the windows on the inside how would you know whether your own design for the windows and the windows surrounds within the facade were adequate or safe

00:23:52 there was an expectation that the internal lining work would have been done correctly

00:23:59 that expectation was never the subject of any

00:24:03 of any discussion or verification or analysis by harley

00:24:06 by harley that we can see in the evidence is that right that's correct why is that

00:24:13 because it wasn't part of our package and

00:24:16 and it was something being undertaken by ryden

00:24:21 if you didn't know

00:24:25 well i think i've asked that question

00:24:31 so does it come to this that you you just trusted whoever it was that ride and subcontracted to do the window reveals to get it right without further investigation uh

00:24:42 without further investigation uh yes it wasn't part of our package well you say it wasn't part of our package

00:24:49 uh was it not part of your responsibility to in ensuring a safe system to satisfy yourself

00:24:57 yourself as far as you could that what was going into the structure on the inside of the windows where it touched what you were doing

00:25:07 doing did not endanger the safety and integrity of what you were designing and applying to the building

00:25:20 i i it wasn't something that we considered we just expected that it would be done properly

00:25:33 and i'm going to turn to a different topic which is rayno bond and the rain screen can we start with paragraph 20 of your statement please page five

00:25:49 when you say that harley was first alerted to the grenfell tower refurbishment project the grenfell project by jason tisbury national sales manager of cgl systems in

00:26:00 national sales manager of cgl systems in april 2013 jason tisbury had passed on harley's details to bruce soans of studio e the architects for the grenfell project so can we take it from that that you or at least harley initially became alerted

00:26:12 at least harley initially became alerted to the grenfell tower project via this company cgl systems yes in april 2013

00:26:19 2013 yes as early as that uh that that was a at an early stage of the project wasn't it

00:26:25 wasn't it uh yes i mean it was before that many months before it was put out to tender yes now let's look at the email it's at a i'm sorry har300

00:26:45 dated 25th of april 2013 and it's sent to undisclosed recipients subject project leads and it seems to be an attachment and he he says morning i've just passed

00:26:57 and he he says morning i've just passed your details to the following architect for two live projects in london

00:27:04 and then near the bottom uh where he says one is a tower called grenfell tower where the client westminster council are looking to overcloud an existing building the other a new leisure center in heston where shingles are being proposed

00:27:16 where shingles are being proposed and then bruce says details are set out at the bottom there i think mark harris was one of the undisclosed recipients who received this email

00:27:26 email i believe that's true yeah did harley have a previous relationship with cgl facades

00:27:32 facades yes what was that relationship they are a cladding panel fabricator similar to cep

00:27:43 panel fabricator similar to cep right and and what was the nature of your relationship with them they supply panels to us on other projects right and did they supply more or less or the

00:27:55 and did they supply more or less or the same as cep over the years cep have pre-supplied more to us than cgl okay

00:28:04 and do i take it from that that cgl had and harley had worked together on prior projects we had yes do you know which ones

00:28:14 is that 2013 not offhand i can find out if you right if you're interested what about i mean offhand if you don't know then you don't know what about chalcotes no that was cp that was cp

00:28:27 no that was cp that was cp and ferry a point i

00:28:32 think that was cp that may have been cgl i can't

00:28:35 i can't recall which was which did harley often get projects this way with a fabricator letting you know that this project was live what april objects is live

00:28:46 live what april objects is live actually is very common um not not just talking about cladding but talking about window curtain wall projects

00:28:57 a lot of the manufacturers and suppliers have an army of sales reps who i think they're called architectural reps that go around architectural practices talk about

00:29:08 practices talk about projects that are coming up

00:29:13 [Music] do it as do uh cgl and cep so this is a very very common thing right can we look at sea407603 please

00:29:30 this is an email from mark harris to bruce sones of the 25th of april 2013 cladding scheme glenfield tower an attachment castlemaine chalcote clements

00:29:42 attachment castlemaine chalcote clements um mark harris says to bruce following up on the contact from jason at cgl this is a quick email to confirm our interest in the proposed overclouding scheme for grenfell tower overcladding tower blocks is very much

00:29:53 overcladding tower blocks is very much what we do and specifically in london hence our keen interest in grenfell i've attached a small selection of tower block project info sheets and would welcome the opportunity of meeting up with you to talk through your requirements

00:30:05 your requirements it's fair to say i think from that that mark harris was describing harley's expertise

00:30:09 expertise as a specialist cladding contractor or subcontractor correct would it be normal for mark harris as your independent uh sales person as it were to reach out

00:30:20 uh sales person as it were to reach out to an architect in this way yes and is it fair to say that as a specialist cladding subcontractor this was just the kind of project that was well suited to

00:30:31 kind of project that was well suited to holly's expertise at the time yes now he attached a number of project information sheets and we've seen them castle name child cuts clemens were all three of those uh projects in which acm rain screen

00:30:43 uh projects in which acm rain screen panels were used uh yes and uh does that well had harley done jobs where acm was not used

00:30:54 where acm was not used for example zinc honeycomb no we haven't used zinc honeycomb we use aluminium honeycomb

00:31:00 honeycomb right what about rock panel there's a rain screen never use rock paddle right is it fair to say

00:31:08 to say that a significant number of harley's building envelope refurbishments up to 2013 had used acm cladding yes do you know what kind of percentage

00:31:19 yes do you know what kind of percentage even roughly on the high rise towers i would probably say

00:31:24 say 70 percent right had you or anyone else at harley

00:31:35 had you or anyone else at harley previously sought any information from alcoa iconic as it became about the fire safety of rayna bond acm panels for for

00:31:44 for those previous projects well we'd had the the bba certificate from it from them yes and you said earlier in your evidence that you've had

00:31:56 earlier in your evidence that you've had that in 2008 yes did you receive that certificate in respect of a particular project yes for uh for charcot state for childcare

00:32:07 childcare okay did you ask for it or was it just sent to you as a matter of course do you remember there is a that's a fairly

00:32:18 there is a that's a fairly long story with child cult um well i'm not sure i want long story short the short version of the answer to the question do you remember whether

00:32:29 you remember whether the bba certificate came to you on chalkers as a result of a request it came as a request from ryden

00:32:38 to render bonds and who at ryden requested the bba certificate i think it was steve blake right thank you and then he sent it on to you did he

00:32:49 to you did he yes yes

00:32:53 uh i mean i don't wish to stop you telling giving me some more context behind that if it's relevant but i i think it's enough for my purposes to mention how it came to you

00:33:04 mention how it came to you and then is this right that when acm was subsequently used on later projects such as for example castlemaine um you didn't ask for a revised or new certificate

00:33:15 certificate you used the one you had on childcares

00:33:21 i i can't say for sure that we didn't get a new certificate sent to us from red bond for that

00:33:32 sent to us from red bond for that certainly they sent us a copy of the certificate for grenfell

00:33:44 do you know why steve blake asked to see the bba certificate for the acm panel on the chalcotes project yes and why is that

00:33:57 project yes and why is that we'd started the charcoals project using a different product something called ettelbond which is a similar acm

00:34:09 which is a similar acm we'd put it up on the first block by the time there are five blocks of child cards by the time we're halfway through the second block we noticed the panels were delaminating

00:34:20 delaminating we then went through quite a lengthy process of swapping out delaminating panels

00:34:30 there are a load of consultants involved with this

00:34:36 with this at this stage barry josie from piccadike allen

00:34:41 allen sandbergs were involved the decision then came to change the panels take the little bundle off and replace them with something else steve then

00:34:56 steve then employed wintec or another clinic consultancy and asked for their opinion of what other products were available so they sent steve a spreadsheet of other panels which they thought were

00:35:09 of other panels which they thought were equivalent and suitable to be used at grenfell sorry to camden the and steve

00:35:20 the and steve was keen for whatever reason to to run with reddit bond as opposed to luke bond and he then asked for all the certificates

00:35:31 asked for all the certificates to do with uh renault bond primarily because we didn't want to have the same problem with delamination so there's a lot of investigation

00:35:42 investigation or done into renabond at that point which is why i'm very familiar with the bba certificate because we studied it quite hard and

00:35:56 yeah so that's why we you know that's the research we didn't to rent a bond at that stage thank you maybe actually not there's not just us looking at it and ryden's we had piccadile callan

00:36:07 and ryden's we had piccadile callan sandbergs

00:36:08 sandbergs and wintec all involved with that project

00:36:12 project and on completion of the project we actually had warranties for the use of that product on those 24-storey buildings signed by

00:36:24 on those 24-storey buildings signed by renault

00:36:27 renault right um i'd like to turn to the meeting on the 27th of september 2013 at the hayes galleria venue you deal with this paragraph 21 of

00:36:38 venue you deal with this paragraph 21 of your statement on page five we can just look at that

00:36:42 and then

00:36:55 and then you say on the 27th of september 2013 mark harris harley's commercial manager and i met with bruce sones and thomas wreck of studio e in relation to the grenfell project in advance of the meeting thomas

00:37:06 project in advance of the meeting thomas rex sent mark harris studio e scope elevation drawing series studio e's draft proposal of the design intent for the cladding uh wind load calculations and an excerpt from the engineers report specifying

00:37:17 from the engineers report specifying u-values

00:37:18 u-values and then at 22 you explain that you described the meeting and you say during the meeting several aspects of the project were discussed including available rain screen products interface details work program access

00:37:30 interface details work program access design

00:37:31 design and budget and then over the page you say the architects wanted to discuss cost to help them with the budgeting for the project as part of this discussion a number of

00:37:40 number of cladding options were discussed including zinc proteus hr and acm as well as the cladding configuration ie cassette versus face fixed can you just help me what discussions did you have with mark

00:37:52 what discussions did you have with mark harris prior to the meeting about the strategy to be adopted at the meeting i can't recall in your experience was it normal or usual to have a preliminary meeting with an architect

00:38:03 meeting with an architect to develop or discuss the design and materials

00:38:06 materials before the project was even put out to tender

00:38:09 tender yes mr reg of studio e told us this is day 12 page 66 line 24 that it was unusual

00:38:17 unusual in his experience would you disagree with that yes see now you go on to say page 22 and i've shown you this um

00:38:30 already you say project acm as well as the cladding configuration and then you say at the end at this meeting it seemed that the architects had provisionally decided on zinc because of its appearance as they were looking to

00:38:41 appearance as they were looking to achieve

00:38:42 achieve an industrial type look did studio eid say that they favored zinc for its appearance uh yes are you aware of any reason why

00:38:53 uh yes are you aware of any reason why their preference for zinc at this stage was anything other than entirely aesthetic

00:39:00 aesthetic no can we see art401487 please

00:39:10 this is bruce says email

00:39:17 uh the same day later that day in fact immediately after the meeting to philip booth uh who is art was um artelia and peter madison at the tma

00:39:28 um artelia and peter madison at the tma as well as others and he says darrell we met with harley curtin wall this morning to discuss the project they're very keen and have been tracking the project for some time you see that yes and

00:39:39 you see that yes and the specialist this kind of project they pointed to ferrier point as being very similar to grenfell although it's triple glazed and super insulated we had forwarded them samples sample details and the elevation measured beforehand

00:39:51 measured beforehand and then i just want to focus on paragraphs one and two one the back of a packet budget based on the areas is quite around three million pounds close quakes which would include

00:40:01 include around 250 000 pounds for mass climbers and

00:40:04 and zinc rain screen cassettes just note that reference there this equates to 18 over our stage d budget of 2.3 million pounds assuming access costs fall under

00:40:15 assuming access costs fall under preliminaries and then two their recurring experience is that budgets force clients to adopt the cheapest cloud cladding option aluminium composite material acm face fixed

00:40:26 face fixed we have offered to forward a more detailed takeoff so that they can provide a more accurate budget a zinc composite panel is also available which is cheaper to install than a cassette now i've read that to you

00:40:36 you in full because my question is do those paragraphs of this email accord with your recollection of what was discussed at that meeting

00:40:47 i can't recall the exact um what exactly said but it would it would seem

00:40:55 seem the sort of thing that might be discussed yes at this stage was there any preference in your mind or mr harris's mind so far as you knew it for face fixing or for cassette fixing one or the other

00:41:08 or for cassette fixing one or the other no did you detect any preference on the part of studio e for cassette or face fixed

00:41:21 cassette or face fixed i can't be certain of this but what impression were you given at this stage in respect of the flexibility about the material choices at this at that stage i don't think

00:41:33 at this at that stage i don't think they've made up their mind what they wanted

00:41:36 wanted was there any discussion about the safety

00:41:39 safety of zinc cladding panels

00:41:43 as compared with acm clouding panels no do you know who at the meeting initially introduced the idea of acm clouding as an option for grenfell it it could have been um

00:41:57 it it could have been um studio e or maybe not so i i don't know on the face of the email where he says at paragraph two their recurring experience that's harley

00:42:08 their recurring experience that's harley yeah is the budget's forced clients to adopt the cheapest cladding option aluminium composite material acm face fixed

00:42:15 fixed it looks from that as if it were you it was you who initially introduced the idea of acn can you comment on that no well we knew that

00:42:25 that they were talking to other cladding companies and manufacturers long before we were involved and the statement that clients

00:42:37 and the statement that clients generally go for the most cost-effective planning solution which is acme and face fixed

00:42:45 fixed so that that statement's just a statement of fact you say you knew that they were talking to other cladding companies how did you know that i think it's something they

00:42:56 something they they mentioned whilst they were talking to us who did they refer to as others having companies i i don't know i i now know who they are but um at the time they weren't specific about

00:43:07 at the time they weren't specific about who they were talking to right you say you now know who they are yeah so i've forgotten who they are but i don't know

00:43:17 do you know who who are they they were talking to cep long before us right when you say cladding company uh um your cv and uh that's a fabricator

00:43:29 your cv and uh that's a fabricator that's a

00:43:29 that's a fabricate well they also yes they're a fabricator but were they talking to your knowledge to any specialist claudic cladding they were and i i i did find out i've forgotten who they were

00:43:40 who they were um where

00:43:45 was there any discussion at this meeting about the material for the for insulation as opposed to range screen i can't recall but there was

00:43:59 i can't recall but there was a u-value calculation given so i presume that that would have specified the celetex in there but i don't think it was

00:44:10 there but i don't think it was particularly discussed okay i'll come back to that in a moment was it your understanding in general terms that studio e would have relied on what harley was telling it at this meeting

00:44:22 meeting only to present material options that were suitable for use on grenfell tower

00:44:28 i would think that studio would only present

00:44:32 present materials which are suitable for use yes and that to the extent that you were advising them or helping them they would be

00:44:40 be relying on you as the specialists yeah and we certainly wouldn't recommend a product that we didn't believe was compliant no that's not my my question let me ask it again

00:44:51 let me ask it again was it your understanding from this meeting that studio e would be relying on harley only to present material options options in respective materials that were suitable for use on grenfell tower

00:45:05 for use on grenfell tower i'm not sure to be relying on us at all

00:45:10 so is the answer to my question no you did not think studio e would be relying on harley to present materials that would be correct

00:45:20 correct i see

00:45:23 so what was the point of the discussion then if

00:45:27 then if studio e were not entitled to rely on what you as the specialist some potential subcontractors were telling them about choices of material

00:45:37 we would we went through a range of different products that maybe that could be used

00:45:44 and all of the things that we all the products we discussed we believe will be compliance was there any specific discussion as far as you can recall at this meeting

00:45:55 as far as you can recall at this meeting about whether acm as the range green material was suitable for a building of this height namely a building in excess of 18 meters

00:46:05 i it was it was taken as red during the discussions that it was otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it

00:46:13 about it but so no specific discussion but an assumption all around is that the gist of what you're telling us correct yeah did anybody at that meeting raise concerns about whether the use of acm on

00:46:25 concerns about whether the use of acm on grenfell

00:46:26 grenfell was appropriate no now we've looked at paragraph two

00:46:33 of this email do you remember whether you or mark harris expressed a particular preference for any type of product

00:46:42 not at that stage now said you didn't express a preference for acm cladding at that meeting that was oh you're saying correct

00:46:52 uh mr sons has got you down in his email and don't forget this was only a matter of hours if not minutes after it had finished

00:47:02 finished uh as saying their recurring experience is that budgets force clients to adopt the cheapest cladding option aluminium composite material acm face

00:47:13 aluminium composite material acm face fixed

00:47:14 fixed was that in fact your experience yes yes and what other projects had that occurred prior to this meeting

00:47:28 i i think all of the face fixed atm projects that we've carried out so that would have been

00:47:39 so that would have been chalcott's would have been ferrier it's it's the way it always ends up

00:47:47 up right were there any projects that you'd done involving acm which were cassette

00:47:58 at that stage

00:48:02 no there weren't no really okay um does that tell us that on all the projects you've done so far all of the clients have been forced to

00:48:13 all of the clients have been forced to adopt acm

00:48:14 adopt acm face fixed on the grounds of budgetary considerations i can't speak for the for the clients but my

00:48:23 but my your question is yes right thank you [Applause] did you yourself or anyone else said harley to your knowledge consider um either on this project or

00:48:34 um either on this project or any of those prior projects where acm facefix was used the relative um far performance of acm face fixed as opposed to any

00:48:45 of acm face fixed as opposed to any other

00:48:46 other form of rain screen

00:48:51 no we believed that the acm was fully compliant with building regulations yes i know you've said that um my

00:49:03 yes i know you've said that um my question is a different one i'll repeat it

00:49:06 it did you yourself or so far as you know anyone else at harley actively consider either on for this project

00:49:16 project or any of those prior projects you've referred to acm face fix was used the relative fire performance of acm face fixed in comparison with any other within with

00:49:27 in comparison with any other within with any other form of main screen product um

00:49:36 no so although although we we've always had our doubts about high-pressure laminates we've never used those

00:49:50 would you agree with this proposition that

00:49:53 that at least at this stage of all the professionals working on the overcladding of grenfell tower harley were in the best position as the specialists cladding potential contractor to make an

00:50:06 cladding potential contractor to make an assessment of whether any of the materials

00:50:08 materials to be used in the clouding system at grenfell were compliant with statutory requirements not at this stage okay not at this stage but later on

00:50:22 i don't think with regard to materials we

00:50:26 we were any better positioned than anybody else

00:50:33 just moving to the question of the insulation this meeting can i ask you to look at bruce sends his witness statement which is at sea

00:50:45 is at sea 3014273

00:50:47 3014273 and i'd like us to go to page 114 please uh and if we look at paragraph 271

00:50:58 uh and if we look at paragraph 271 he says two-thirds of the way down that paragraph he says when i met harley and this is a reference to the 27th of september meeting because we can see that from the previous paragraph he says when i met

00:51:09 previous paragraph he says when i met harley i believe i had a lingering uncertainty about pir because this was a high rise and i had not been involved in a high rise before i believe but i cannot say for sure that i asked ray bailey a question about the

00:51:21 i asked ray bailey a question about the acceptability of using rigid foam insulation on a high-rise building probably at the end of the meeting if i did i don't recall he provided a definitive response do you recall mr

00:51:32 a definitive response do you recall mr sones raising this query with you during that meeting absolutely not you say absolutely not are you

00:51:38 are you categorical about that in your recollection yeah it would have struck me as

00:51:42 me as odd question to ask why is that if they well they've specified well two things they've they've specified the pir and it's a product

00:51:53 product that we hadn't used on the high-rise building at that stage um you say they have specified the pir is that entirely right given that this is september 2013.

00:52:05 is september 2013. well i think months prior to the compilation of the nba specification that was picked up from the u-value calculation were you provided with the u-value

00:52:16 were you provided with the u-value calculation prior to this meeting we were yeah

00:52:18 were yeah you were i see so that that comes from an earlier document

00:52:28 and then you say it's a product we hadn't used on a high-rise building at that stage yes so this would have jumped out at you it would have what was the fact that pir as you say had already been specified

00:52:40 had already been specified for this building not something that already jumped out at you given that you hadn't used pir before no it the question would have left out at me it's been

00:52:53 would have left out at me it's been specified and they're asking us what do we know about it that's what it's left

00:52:59 it's left mr sainz was asked about this exchange uh

00:53:02 uh and he said i wonder if we can actually have his evidence up um so i can put it to you it's the transcript for day 20 page 46 at line 24.

00:53:23 and ms grange asked mr sones 924 do you have any recollection of discussing insulation with mr bailey of harley at that meeting

00:53:34 and then she says over the page can you actually recall discussing the insulation as distinct from the rain screen panels and his response was at line three i believe i asked him about the

00:53:45 believe i asked him about the acceptability of using a rigid foam and i might not have mentioned it was celatex we did discuss insulation in the round because we discussed the assembly of the facade the sequence

00:53:56 the assembly of the facade the sequence how it would all be supported so in a general sense we did discuss insulation on reflection i believe one of the reasons i might have been prompted to ask not just any kind of lingering uncertainty

00:54:07 uncertainty but i think we were shown several pictures of the ferry point tower under construction and those in progress construction you could quite clearly see were the insulation was mineral wool yes question i answered that's in

00:54:19 yes question i answered that's in hindsight those pictures have been disclosed by the inquiry but we didn't receive digital copies until six months later i believe now do you recall mr stones asking about the acceptability

00:54:30 mr stones asking about the acceptability of using a rigid foam on a high-rise building as he says did you show mr sohn's pictures of the ferrier point tower under construction

00:54:42 uh i think mark sent over some photographs or buildings that we need to be done prior to the meeting but that's a matter of record i i can't

00:54:54 of record i i can't yes well let me see if i can jog you all right can i just interrupt you um at the moment the transcript doesn't record the fact that the mr bailey answered the question

00:55:05 that the mr bailey answered the question beginning

00:55:06 beginning do you recall mr sones asking about the acceptability he answered no before you then asked your next question did you show mr sam's pictures

00:55:17 sam's pictures so i just mentioned that in case it gets lost

00:55:23 thank you mr chairman

00:55:28 so we'll make that correction in the transcript um can i seek to jog your recollection by showing you one or two of the pictures sure first of all sea403497

00:55:52 looking at this did you show bruce owens and thomas wreck this image or similar images at the hayes galleria meeting i can't recall but yes

00:56:03 i can't recall but yes probably and let's look at another one sea403516

00:56:10 3516

00:56:14 same question do you recall showing studio e

00:56:18 studio e this image at the hayes galleria meeting i can't recall whether there's a specific image or not but entirely possible

00:56:25 possible would you agree with me that it's quite apparent from these images that the yellow material we can see is mineral wool insulation it is yes and do you recall discussing

00:56:37 it is yes and do you recall discussing whether the insulation to be used on grenfell was mineral wool or rigid foam in contrast to the insulation used on ferrier point i can't recall did studio e

00:56:49 i can't recall did studio e ever ask you or indeed to your knowledge anybody else at harley about the suitability of the celetex insulation or about its compliance with fire performance requirements

00:57:01 performance requirements not to my knowledge

00:57:07 what impression were you given by studio e about the flexibility and the choices of insulation material at this stage there were none there were no choices no choices so

00:57:18 there were no choices no choices so does that mean that the choice has already been made and it was the insulation that had already been picked in the u-value document you referred to yes i see was there any discussion about cavity barriers at this meeting no what

00:57:31 cavity barriers at this meeting no what about

00:57:31 about shortly after this meeting do you remember i don't believe so right um can i ask you to look at mr rex statement he's studio e as well s e a

00:57:42 statement he's studio e as well s e a three zero is one four two seven eight one four two seven eight page thirty paragraph one two four please

00:57:52 and he says there under the heading cavity barriers as item g in his statement

00:57:57 statement he says

00:58:00 uh in the second sentence i do not recall

00:58:04 recall how studio he sourced these cavity barriers those are the down cladding systems barriers but my drawings show cavity barriers at the floor and party walls i think i'll discuss cavity barriers with harley

00:58:15 discuss cavity barriers with harley but they may have been included in our drawings before harley and studio e were in contact in autumn 2013. do you recall whether you

00:58:22 you discussed cavity barriers at the hayes galleria meeting or or afterwards later in 2013. i i don't recall any discussions

00:58:34 i i don't recall any discussions right about the cavity parishes where mr rex says he thinks he did discuss cavity barriers with you uh do you think that's right or do you think that's wrong i think that's wrong right

00:58:47 i think that's wrong right do you remember whether thomas do you remember whether thomas wreck ever consulted you or anybody else at harley to your knowledge in relation to the cavity barrier scheme not to my knowledge mr sainz's evidence

00:59:01 not to my knowledge mr sainz's evidence was that he had thought that thomas wreck had consulted you on the cavity barrier strategy and just for our references and perhaps yours as well that's day 21 page 74 lines 20 to 26 and day 21

00:59:13 day 21 page 74 lines 20 to 26 and day 21 pages 80

00:59:14 pages 80 page 82 lines 23 to 25 we don't need to go

00:59:17 go to that yeah that's for our benefit but i wouldn't mind your comment on that do you agree that mr sohn was his recollection is correct that mr wreck did consult you on the cavity barrier

00:59:28 cavity barrier strategy no i don't and certainly when we got the contract the first question that we had was asking questions of

00:59:39 was asking questions of studio e with regard to cavity barriers

00:59:45 i see in general terms just coming back to the meeting uh

00:59:54 what was your impression of the budget which had been set by the client at that stage i don't think we knew the budget i think my recollection is that mark did

01:00:06 i think my recollection is that mark did a

01:00:07 a back of the packet price and then send it over to um bruce sunnis yes when you gave the back at the fact packet figure of approximately three million

01:00:18 million pounds did that include the estimated cost of design procuring and installation of the entire facade

01:00:29 facade it's it's the back of a fact package so we have a square meterage rate that we can

01:00:37 can we're comfortable with being able to put a system on the wall and that's an all-inclusive price but of course

01:00:43 course until we get exact details of what they want the exact size of the building it is only a this is a ballpark figure i see so you've you've got a per

01:00:54 i see so you've you've got a per measurement figure yes and the reason it was ballpark as you put it is because you didn't know the precise measurements of the building all the precise makeup of what we were doing there is going to be no i

01:01:05 doing there is going to be no i understand that i understand that but i think i think the answer to my question is is yes it includes the cost of design the cost of procurement and the cost of installation of the whole facade yes yes now he then goes on

01:01:17 yes yes now he then goes on uh to say if we can go back to the email um please which is it

01:01:30 sorry sorry this is at

01:01:36 art401487

01:01:40 second paragraph again

01:01:50 uh he says a zinc composite panel is also available which is cheaper to install than

01:02:01 which is cheaper to install than cassette do you remember discussion about that in particular i i i don't at one point there was a ned zinc product

01:02:14 there was a ned zinc product um proposed and that wasn't by us we were not dealt with knitting before but a zinc composite panel is the same as an acm except the outer face is zinc as opposed to aluminium right

01:02:28 can i just go back then to a documentary i haven't shown you har har40 is 5992

01:02:44 this is the email from bruce sayings of studio e to you and mark harris which follows the meeting dear mark ray thank you very much for the conversation this morning it was

01:02:55 the conversation this morning it was very useful and i'm especially grateful you could come in until london we will follow up early next week with a quantity take-off from our model

01:03:02 our model i've communicated your back of a packet figure to the qs and it is over budget which is to be expected but some firmer budgets will help focus everyone's minds we're looking seriously at ned's inc

01:03:13 we're looking seriously at ned's inc composite panel the small sample we have in the office looks like a leukobond but it's apparently zinc what did um you understand mr sainz's reference to

01:03:24 reference to focusing everyone's minds to be to mean i'm not sure i can speak for for proof sinners but

01:03:39 can speak for for proof sinners but i would imagine that there is a budget somewhere that may need to be exceeded or increased to give them the fee to

01:03:50 or increased to give them the fee to give them the look that they want yeah that that to cut to the chase were you concerned that your back of a packet estimate of about three million pounds appeared to mr sainz to be too high at

01:04:01 appeared to mr sainz to be too high at that stage and they need revising downwards

01:04:07 no we were the start of a fairly long process

01:04:10 process yes i know that but to answer my question were you concerned at the time that your back of a pacquiao figure and there was the back of a fact packet ballpark figure of three million might

01:04:22 ballpark figure of three million might have been too high and needed to be reduced uh no i wasn't concerned

01:04:31 he says as i've shown you in the second paragraph that they're seriously looking at

01:04:35 at ned zink's composite panel and he refers to the sample in the office is it fair to say that initially to your impression the architect's preference was for a zinc

01:04:46 preference was for a zinc cladding product yes yes did you express any concerns that it would be challenging to provide a zinc product within the back of a packet budget

01:04:57 the back of a packet budget of 3 million pounds

01:05:00 i can't recall

01:05:03 now after that meeting on the 4th of october 2013. do you recall the studio he asked harley for an information and costings about a nedzing

01:05:14 information and costings about a nedzing product

01:05:17 i think it's a matter of recording yeah well let's look at h.a.r.405461

01:05:25 this is an email from bruce stone's on that date

01:05:28 that date to mark harris copy to you with some drawings attached and in the third paragraph mr sainz says the client's

01:05:40 paragraph mr sainz says the client's response to your budget was well what about aluminium we haven't had samples or costs back from nedzing but this could be ideal if it eliminates the need for a fabricated tray and his true zinc

01:05:50 zinc fabricated trays and his true zinc uh and then it says would it be possible to come back with budget costs or what would the material cost uplift

01:06:01 or what would the material cost uplift be for a nova composite versus a metallic faux zinc rayno bond panel do you know what efforts

01:06:07 efforts if any harley went to to obtain pricing for the nedzing product

01:06:14 uh i don't know fan i'm i'm sure we've provided some prices okay well let's just pursue this a bit more har40 is 5997

01:06:30 this is an email from mark harris to bruce 18th of october 2013 copied to you let's look at the second paragraph uh we've put a budget spreadsheet together as you can see is attached uh which is

01:06:42 as you can see is attached uh which is based on using the renderable natural zinc product fabricated into cassettes as a starting point do you know why renabon was being proposed at this stage rather than any other aluminium panel manufacturer

01:06:57 no and then he goes on in the fourth paragraph to say the most expensive option is obviously the natural zinc cassettes

01:07:04 cassettes if standard acm was to be considered in the zinc color face fix the saving could potentially be over 500 000 pounds and then he goes on to say as said when we met

01:07:15 we met we have a number of examples of high-rise residential blocks in london where standard aluminium face fixed acm was used we could forward some photo images

01:07:22 images or arrange site visit as and when required

01:07:25 required and do you know what mark harris was referring to there by the phrase standard acn as a standard standard acme is one with a

01:07:35 a standard color paint finish as opposed to a special effect right and what would constitute non-standard acm

01:07:45 it's a non-standard issue you should say non-standard finnish acm i think so you're talking about finishes yes do i take it from that the the distinction between standard and non-standard is not the distinction

01:07:56 non-standard is not the distinction between

01:07:57 between um pe and fr fire fire retardant for fire resistant core no right

01:08:06 do you know why face fixed is so much or was so much cheaper than cassette

01:08:12 yes the with

01:08:17 face fix if you have a panel for example it's a meter square you take a meter square flat sheet cut it up and put some holes around the side of it

01:08:28 of it the fabrication is very quick and easy and

01:08:32 and you've got a hundred a square meter of panel on the wall for a square meter of panel from the stocks stock sheet

01:08:44 panel from the stocks stock sheet if you use a cassette you have probably millimeters all round for the size which

01:08:55 millimeters all round for the size which are folded in so to get a meter square face area you're

01:09:00 you're now using

01:09:04 1.7 meters of panel to achieve one meter on the wall and the fabrication cost is a lot higher so two things then you need more of them

01:09:15 need more of them to cover the square foot area the square meter area applications and you've got to have fabrication costs right do

01:09:21 right do do you know whether mark harris's prices would include a fabrication cost that would yeah just help me with this uh

01:09:30 uh when harley buy or source cassettes from a fabricator such as cep

01:09:38 as cep is there a supply contract as between cep

01:09:41 cep and harley there's a there's an order there's an order yeah and the price that you're quoting is the price that you get from cep is it

01:09:52 is the price that you get from cep is it that our price that we're quoting to the client is the panels the insulation

01:10:03 the panels the insulation the rails the assembly the design so all all sorts of things are added to the actual panel cost is an element of our final cell cost so the ch

01:10:15 element of our final cell cost so the ch is the chain like this rayna bond sells the panel to cep see he buys the panel fabricates it sells it to you for a higher price and then you quote an even higher price of the client yes

01:10:30 higher price of the client yes and if it's face fixed you don't need the fabricator no we we need the fabricator what does the fabricator do he chops the sheet up to the required size and puts the holes in it

01:10:43 again question do you know why mark harris was promoting acm and particularly reyno bond acm at this stage

01:10:50 stage in 18th of october 2013.

01:10:56 uh i'm not so sure that he's no that's a fair answer and i need to show you the harley budget cost document

01:11:07 harley budget cost document perhaps i should just do that that's at sea402275

01:11:12 sea402275 [Applause]

01:11:19 um there it is we're going to come back to that in very few minutes but just to just to ask the question again based on the um enclosure to the document to the email you can see that here's the

01:11:31 to the email you can see that here's the budget 18th of october 2013 and you can see

01:11:35 see from the second and third items it's a rainer bond zinc cassette rain screen cladding finial screen crown no insulation and there's a price for that

01:11:44 that and then underneath that rainy bond zinc rain screen spandrel clouding and insulation there's a price for that and then there are other rainer bond products i identified lower down you see that

01:11:57 i identified lower down you see that yes so rayna bond is there and if we go to page two of this well perhaps we don't need page two at the moment but you can see rainer bond is the product that's referred to in there as the range screen and my

01:12:09 there as the range screen and my question is why only renault bond

01:12:18 i'm i don't know i presume they've actually had prices for zinc previously do you know why mark harris didn't include include quotes for nedsync panels in this email given that that was one of

01:12:29 this email given that that was one of the

01:12:30 the products in which mr sones was interested i i don't at that stage but i do recall um

01:12:42 recall um my trying to get some prices for some alternatives and after three weeks they just sent back a a square meter

01:12:53 a a square meter rate with extra rovers for corners and then so it wasn't the information we got back from the supplier was actually useless yes do you know why or did it

01:13:05 yes do you know why or did it did you or anyone else at harley suggest a luco bond as an as a panel to studio e i uh i think

01:13:16 i uh i think the acms that we've discussed with generic acms and i think marina bond um seems to have been the one was settled on because the early discussions mark had with with

01:13:29 the early discussions mark had with with cep

01:13:30 cep and debbie french i presume right is that why

01:13:38 or does that explain what why harley was so keen to stick with reyna bond

01:13:45 bond of a relationship i i don't think we have a relationship but you you're a a cladding supplier we can supply whatever the client wants

01:13:58 can i show you the luca bond product brochure that's at sea 3014431

01:14:12 are you familiar with this document from work on other projects do you think i'm not sure i'm familiar with that particular document but we we do know luke upon yes you know a luca

01:14:24 we do know luke upon yes you know a luca bond

01:14:24 bond yes in any of the high-rise residential cladding products that you've done did you use the luca bond yes we we had a luca bond i think was on ferry a point very impo okay right so you were familiar with the

01:14:36 okay right so you were familiar with the luca bonds products then yes i would take it right let's look at page 32 of this document then because you can see from that there are three types of panel um a leukobond a leukobond plus and a

01:14:49 um a leukobond a leukobond plus and a leukobond a2 you see that and a leukobond plus sorry luca bond itself comes with a pe core and i'm i'm summarizing it but you can see that i think from the picture

01:15:00 can see that i think from the picture the liquor bomb plus comes with a mineral filled pool yes yes and the luca bond a2 comes with an a2 rated core were you aware of these different products

01:15:11 products uh in late 2013 available from luca bond i wasn't there you weren't can you explain why you didn't or no one else had hardly took steps to to look into luca bond as a separate

01:15:22 to look into luca bond as a separate product supplier particularly given what they were offering so far as rain screen panel products were concerned no did you ever i suppose it would follow

01:15:32 follow but you never advised anyone at studio e of the existence of these different products

01:15:37 products i think at luca pond was was discussed it appeared in the mbs specification uh was in the nba specification but was

01:15:48 uh was in the nba specification but was there any discussion about it at these meetings

01:15:51 meetings we were at the meetings we were talking generically about acms

01:15:59 did you give any consideration as to whether any of these products here on this page

01:16:03 this page might have been suitable for use at grenfell

01:16:08 we didn't get into the detail of the luca bond

01:16:11 luca bond did your knowledge and experience of luca bonds products from earlier projects

01:16:15 projects and the fact that they come with different cause not cause you to ask similar questions of reino bond for example do they come with an fr core or a mineral core

01:16:27 no i i wasn't aware of this particular document no um but in general terms did harley ever investigate with with rayner bond whether they could provide the same core product that luca bond provided no can

01:16:40 product that luca bond provided no can you explain why that is the well the two products that rename provided um and the term renault bond when we talked

01:16:53 the term renault bond when we talked about it no one ever talked about renault

01:16:55 renault p it's always renabond and the fr product which appears on the same bba certificate both of those products

01:17:06 bba certificate both of those products are rated

01:17:06 are rated as class o

01:17:10 and the only difference um in the european standard is that the fr product produces slightly less smoke than the

01:17:18 than the uh the standard renault product

01:17:24 was that how you saw it at the time yes you see

01:17:27 you see mr chairman this is probably an appropriate moment for a short break yes this is you yes thank you all right well we'll have a short break now mr bailey we'll take 15 minutes come back please

01:17:39 we'll take 15 minutes come back please at 25 to 4 and no talking to anyone about your evidence please or anything to do with it all right so you give the usher now she'll look after you thank you thank you very much

01:17:57 all right 25-4 please thank you

01:34:12 yes would you ask mr or bailey to come back please

01:34:25 all right mr bailey yes ready to carry on yes thank you yes mr chairman thank you mr bailey can we go back to mr harris's scope of work spreadsheet of the 18th of october we looked at a moment ago

01:34:36 looked at a moment ago before the break sea402275 please uh it was attached to the email we saw um do you think you read this at the

01:34:48 um do you think you read this at the time

01:34:51 uh i probably glanced over it right now we can see that it said on page two if we look at page two under heading two design

01:35:00 design please look at that our budget allows for a full design package including gas detailed design of a system and interfaces samples no full working mock-up allowed

01:35:11 samples no full working mock-up allowed for material schedules and production drawings

01:35:14 drawings it also allows for site surveys o m's and covers a sum for pi insurance now we looked earlier on in your evidence of the loi from the summer of 2014.

01:35:26 2014. this is a much earlier document this is october 13. do you agree having seen this that harley was right from the outset offering to provide studio e with full design services within its budget

01:35:41 yes and that understanding never changed after that did it

01:35:50 well when this was um so this was in october this one yes

01:35:59 yeah within the limitations of what was set out in the mbs specification we did allow a full design package now before we leave the budget can i ask you to look at page two under exclusions

01:36:10 you to look at page two under exclusions a little lower down the page we're looking at you see it says exclusions yes and it says there exclusions no allowance for fire rated products what did that mean this is

01:36:23 what did that mean this is to do with fire rated glass which is used to protect walkways and that would have a

01:36:31 have a potentially 60-minute [Music]

01:36:36 [Music] insulation that's 60 minutes

01:36:43 integrity screen and those are very very expensive

01:36:47 expensive and sometimes sort of got yet dropped in to the specifications so that so

01:36:54 that so it really only um relates to fire-rated screens right as you say it's fire-rated glass i mean on the face of it there's no reference to glass there no it just says

01:37:06 reference to glass there no it just says fire rate of products and to the untutored eye that would include fr acm

01:37:12 fr acm does it not include fr acm no it's it means simply fire-rated screens right um can i ask you to look at har-40s

01:37:25 um can i ask you to look at har-40s 5996

01:37:28 5996 this is an email from mark harris to you on the 25th of october 2013 at 1308. you see that

01:37:37 it's the second email down

01:37:42 first of all this is from tom wreck thomas wreck to simon walker at sig the cladding manufacturer 25th of october 2013 and then we can see that thomas wreck passes mark harris's email uh details to sig

01:37:55 mark harris's email uh details to sig or sig and asks them to send a quote directly to him you can see that yes and then mark harris

01:38:03 harris sends this email string to you same day fyi

01:38:07 fyi and says looks like our old mates at studio e are now referring all manufacturers to us on grenfell can't be bad what do you understand old mates at studio e to have meant in this context

01:38:18 studio e to have meant in this context i i think that's just a marxism

01:38:25 a marxism okay had studio e and harley worked together previously no right so you say it's a markism to your understanding did this marxism mean that harley had got in early and

01:38:36 mean that harley had got in early and were able to exert some influence on studio e at least in respect of product selection

01:38:42 selection not with a relative product selection but it does mean that um we've got a foot in the door right a foot in the door in the sense that whichever

01:38:54 in the sense that whichever contractor won the tender you would be strongly in line for subcontract no um foot in what door in what sense then

01:39:01 then well that it gives us a little bit of an edge

01:39:06 edge but no more than that because depending which main contractor wins the tender they they will go out to depending who they are four to six uh

01:39:17 depending who they are four to six uh cladding subcontractors to get their price

01:39:19 price so we don't the fact we're doing a little bit work at this end is trying to give ourselves a little bit of an edge but there's no guarantees in this whatsoever

01:39:34 is it fair to say that in forwarding inquiries from cloudy manufacturers directly

01:39:39 directly to harley as we can see they were doing studio we were letting harley take the lead in the selection of materials at this stage no so why were they doing all that then

01:39:50 no so why were they doing all that then why were they what's sending you the material or the quotes

01:39:58 well i think at this stage we were still doing budgets so it's if you're talking to um who's this is

01:40:13 i think yeah these are supplies this is sig surprise so they're talking giving us prices so the mark can include him in his budget let's go to har3010172

01:40:27 let's go to har3010172 and i'd like to have pages two and three put up side by side please this is an email from mark harris to thomas wreck of the 7th of november 2013 at 8 23.

01:40:40 at 8 23. uh as you can see from the bottom of page one over to the top of page two now you're not copied in on this but mark harris is as is mike sorry you are copying on this i'm so sorry you are copied in on this and and you can see that mr harris says

01:40:53 can see that mr harris says good morning thomas uh and then under a proteus hr composite at 282 pounds per square meter he says quite what finish this is based on

01:41:04 what finish this is based on i have no idea due to a lack of information and then he says i have to say

01:41:08 say from a highly selfish point of view our preference would be to use acm it's tried and tested on many harley projects and we are confident in the costs base that said we are of course an envelope contractor

01:41:20 are of course an envelope contractor and we'll be happy to clad the building in the material of choice is it fair to say looking at that that harley was positively encouraging the use of acm cladding at an early stage as suitable for grenfell tower

01:41:38 i don't think we're pushing it [Music]

01:41:44 particularly well we can see what mr harris says that expressing a clear preference for acm has tried and tested confident in the cost space and i'm really seeking to ask

01:41:56 cost space and i'm really seeking to ask whether you agree that that tells us that harley was positively encouraging studio e to use acm no i don't think that's positively

01:42:07 no i don't think that's positively encouraging to go that route why was harley's preference for acm because we have a uh a supply chain i've had a multiple supply chain for acm we're confident of

01:42:21 supply chain for acm we're confident of the cost base and the lead times for it so so from that point of view uh it's it's a more reliable product to supply

01:42:36 right and given that harley had a preference for acm why was harley telling studio e that it preferred acm

01:42:48 preferred acm for use at grenfell for those reasons right

01:42:51 right so do you accept that harley did have a preference for acm at grenfell yes

01:43:03 did that preference extend to a particular acm product or supplier no do you agree that price and or aesthetics were the dominant factor in

01:43:14 aesthetics were the dominant factor in those discussions relating to panel options

01:43:21 between bruce and mark um [Applause]

01:43:36 yes looking at this email and the expression of this preference would you agree that harley were in essence advocating the selection

01:43:48 essence advocating the selection of acm cladding panels and actively seeking to persuade studio e to change their provisional specification from zinc to acm no or at least to use acm as a an option an alternative option in

01:44:02 as a an option an alternative option in the nbs

01:44:05 the nbs no

01:44:12 so why do you think mark harris told mr wreck at this stage november 2013 that harley's selfish point of view

01:44:24 that harley's selfish point of view preference would be to use acm what was the point of him telling him that well there were a number of different products being talked about

01:44:35 of different products being talked about um of which over which height had no control

01:44:39 control at all and i think probably studio e didn't have a lot of control the client at the end will choose what they want on the building

01:44:51 they want on the building um so

01:44:54 um so all of the products which are being talked about marx expressed a preference for

01:45:00 for acm

01:45:04 right can i ask you to look at a different document which is deborah french's police witness statement

01:45:11 statement which she made on the 14th of september 2017.

01:45:15 2017. so very nearly three years ago it's met3019063

01:45:24 and at page two of that document

01:45:29 which is uh she's got paragraph numbers uh paragraph four she says uh rayna bond aluminium

01:45:36 aluminium composite material acm was made so far as i was aware with either a polyethylene p core p e or a fire resistant core fr the reynabon stainless steel composite material sscm

01:45:47 material sscm and raynabon zinc composite materials zcm were produced with only an fr core now it would appear from what we saw earlier

01:45:56 earlier that alcoa also um produced uh a zinc composite material or zcm were you aware of that at the time of your involvement of in this project

01:46:07 your involvement of in this project the rendezvous to is encompassing material

01:46:11 material yes yes yes and alcohol also sorry yes rain upon it yes was that material

01:46:17 material zinc composite material ever considered for use on grenfell

01:46:23 i don't know there may be mention of it somewhere because basically it would be the same stuff as ned zinc were you aware that zinc composite

01:46:36 were you aware that zinc composite materials

01:46:37 materials or zcm was only produced with a fire resistant or fr core no you didn't

01:46:47 did it occur to you that one of the consequences of proposing an aluminium composite material instead of a zinc composite material was that the core could be formed of polyethylene

01:46:59 polyethylene and therefore not necessarily fire retardant

01:47:02 retardant or fire resistant

01:47:06 no were you aware that in fact an fr core acm panel was available from rayna bond

01:47:17 acm panel was available from rayna bond yes only because it was on the bba certificate so you which i think you told us you read when it was first promulgated or published in 2008 yes

01:47:30 promulgated or published in 2008 yes at the time of the discussion of acm for use on grenfell as we've just seen in mr harris's email is emailing in november october and november 2013

01:47:41 does it follow that you were aware that an acm panel from raybond could be reno bond could be supplied with an fr core

01:47:51 logically yes will you say logically well it would follow from the fact that you'd read the bbs certificate yes that's correct but on the the advertising material all the

01:48:03 the advertising material all the information we had from renabond at that at that time the only there was no play made about fr materials the only place it appeared was

01:48:15 materials the only place it appeared was in the technical table at the at the back of resistance of fire and both that and the pe core were classed uh with scientific class o

01:48:26 were classed uh with scientific class o so this is not in later editions they've actually made quite a big issue of the fr but certainly at the time we were looking at it was

01:48:37 were looking at it was a product that

01:48:40 was virtually was never talked about so is the gist of what you're telling us this that at the time of your

01:48:51 this that at the time of your discussions with studio e about the choice of reynabond acm in october november 2013 you knew that reynold bond supplied an fr chord

01:49:03 that reynold bond supplied an fr chord acm

01:49:05 yes but you didn't discuss it no it was it was just it was class overrated

01:49:12 overrated the same as the um ordinary grenade was there a price difference did you know

01:49:19 you know between fr core and p at that stage because no one had ever discussed

01:49:26 discussed the fr we didn't know there was a price difference i imagine that there would have been a price difference but as i understand it now it's a pound a square meter more that's all so from our point of

01:49:39 more that's all so from our point of view

01:49:39 view if it had been offered at a palace we would

01:49:43 would we would have bought it you know and you would wonder why if there's that little price differential between the two why anybody would stock both types did you actually at the time

01:49:56 both types did you actually at the time consciously think i have a choice here no between p e and f r and i'm going to plump her up for p e

01:50:12 what did you think was the point in reyna bond having in product range an fr panel for acm if the fire performance was the same class naught in both cases

01:50:25 class naught in both cases that's a very good question what's the answer

01:50:28 answer i the only use i would have thought that the application for that

01:50:36 for that would have been on a uh walkway if we were within a meter of an adjacent building

01:50:45 building of on a fire escape route how would that have made a difference that's the only place i could see where

01:50:56 this product would stand out were you aware

01:50:59 aware at the time of any difference in attitude as between fr core and pe core that cep or other fabricators had

01:51:11 no did did cep have a particular preference for pe as opposed to fr um not that i'm a

01:51:21 a no but this is wrong on jeff blade's um witness statement he said he'd never heard of fr does that surprise you

01:51:32 heard of fr does that surprise you yes

01:51:40 did you ever have a discussion with jeff blades on this or any other project about

01:51:44 about fr no

01:51:48 fr no can we look at har 3010160 please now this is a page one as you can see a sales progress report form

01:52:01 a sales progress report form for the grenfell tower project which was compiled by mark harris started starting on the 1st of march 2013. can we look at page 3 in that please

01:52:16 can we look at page 3 in that please he's written there against the date 5th of december 2013 as the penultimate entry is a file note call received from simon lawrence at ryden to advise that they attended the

01:52:27 ryden to advise that they attended the main contractor project intro meeting with the client and architect yesterday and others in attendance included keep moat durkin and waits when the architect gave a slideshow presentation of the scheme harley's name was included on the slide

01:52:38 harley's name was included on the slide and verbal references made to the assistance that we provided

01:52:43 did you see this far late at the time do you think no i wouldn't have done right

01:52:50 right do you know how mark harris and we can ask him about this but do you know how he kept this document was it available to everyone in the office it was yeah it was did you keep a check on it on the projects you were involved with

01:53:01 with um no i i kept in touch verbally with mark

01:53:05 mark right um when he says and harley's name was included on the slide and verbal reference

01:53:09 reference was made to the assistants that we provided do you know or did you know why harley why ryden was telling harley that i don't know why ryden uh told us that

01:53:22 don't know why ryden uh told us that did you get the impression from what you knew and he may not have seen this document that ryden was keen to have harley in there as its subcontractor

01:53:33 no we we were with ryan before and had a good relationship with them but um when these projects come out they go to a

01:53:44 these projects come out they go to a number

01:53:45 number of cladding subcontractors to get prices so they may prefer to work with us but that was

01:53:52 that was by no means any guarantee that we would get the work the picture seems to be here that harley was even at this stage the late 2013 pre-tender influential

01:54:04 2013 pre-tender influential in the choices of cladding material both disregard studio e and in fact now as it seems as regards ryden would that be fair uh no so

01:54:16 would that be fair uh no so how can you explain uh why uh it was important for mr lawrence at ryden to tell harley that it had provided great assistance or assistance

01:54:29 in relation to the project at that stage so it was important for him to tell us yes

01:54:41 i think he was just done chatting to mark about the job and said guess what i've seen yes when he looks on the face of it that here is writing telling harley that

01:54:54 writing telling harley that the the architect is on side with the appointment of harley as the subcontractor because of the assistance that it had provided is that a fair summation of the position

01:55:06 the position i think they would have been happy for us to be appointed yes

01:55:11 was it normal in your experience for harley to be closely involved in pretender discussions this way it's it's not unusual now if we go to your witness statement

01:55:25 uh you say at page seven if we can just look at that

01:55:30 in paragraph 26 there in the last line there was no particular advantage for harley in using the rhino bond acm

01:55:41 bond acm now that that's your statement if we can look at a document ryd4039 please this is an email from mark harris to

01:55:50 to simon lawrence at ryden dated the 22nd of april 2014 so this is post the winning of the tender

01:55:58 tender in march by ryden and in the third paragraph there he and you didn't see this at the time he's he

01:56:07 he's he he says i would prefer to try and stick with rayna bond if poss nothing wrong with the luca bond of course but i'm not sure we can manage the cost so well if we go that route

01:56:19 the cost so well if we go that route [Applause] now to what extent did did you or anybody else at harley ever actually investigate using products rain screen products supplied by rayna bonds competitors

01:56:31 by rayna bonds competitors we were using we've used render bond before

01:56:36 before so we have no um issue sorry

01:56:51 so it's not quite an answer to my the question is to what extent did you or anybody else at harley ever actually investigate using products supplied by rain

01:57:03 using products supplied by rain by brainerd's competitors

01:57:08 on um

01:57:13 grenfell i don't know but we've we've used a leukopond on ferrier point and subsequently use them on other projects

01:57:25 on other projects yes i i i know you've explained that before

01:57:28 before if i were to suggest to you you didn't look at any other competitors or any other pr manufacturers of grain screen products other than rayner bond that's right isn't it it would appear so

01:57:39 that's right isn't it it would appear so yeah yes

01:57:44 and why is it that harley could manage the cost of rayna bond better than it could with the luca bond do you know

01:57:59 given that harley had used the luca bond and and rayner bond as you say in your statement on a number of projects previously

01:58:09 can you explain why there was such a preference for rayner bond on the grenfell tower project uh no had you suggested a luca bomb to

01:58:20 no had you suggested a luca bomb to bruce zones at any point do you think uh possibly and the other thing you that's interesting is when we

01:58:32 thing you that's interesting is when we talk about nobody used to talk about acms this is this is uh a thing that's come out more recently the

01:58:43 thing that's come out more recently the luca bond

01:58:45 luca bond is the brand name it's a bit like hoover we

01:58:48 we for acm so it's quite possible that we we talk when we talk about a luca bond we mean acms and acms we need to luca pond [Music]

01:58:58 [Music] so it's quite entirely possible we've spoken to

01:59:03 spoken to bruce cenas about luca bond

01:59:08 can i go to har triple zero 101 72 please and i want just now to explore the relationship between rayna bond and

01:59:19 the relationship between rayna bond and harley

01:59:20 harley just look at one or two documents on that subject if i may this is an email from mark harris to bruce sowns of the of studio e of the 21st of november 2013. so a little bit back in time from where we were

01:59:32 back in time from where we were and this is in the context of the selection of materials and you can see from the bottom of the page that it follows on from bruce sainz's letter or email to to mark harrison

01:59:43 letter or email to to mark harrison thomas wreck copy to you uh about uh about materials uh particularly about kme proteus square meter rate so this is a little bit later in

01:59:55 so this is a little bit later in november but still at the time when just for context the nbs specification is being developed and he says apologies for the delayed response only just received a response from rayner bond they were holding out

02:00:06 from rayner bond they were holding out on us because they were originally talking with another company and we were concerned about maintaining loyalty on the basis that the other company introduced them to the project once i pointed out how much business we do with rainer bond it focused their

02:00:17 do with rainer bond it focused their attention

02:00:19 attention how much business did harley actually do with reyno bond alcoa that is by the end of 2013 as at the end of 2013

02:00:33 i couldn't tell you the top of my head

02:00:36 what was it a lot a little well we've done

02:00:42 five blocks at camden we've done a block of heathrow

02:00:52 and i i can't remember on little venice whether that was a lukewarm lorena bond so we did quite a lot of business with both of them right

02:01:04 both of them right and how much business with reyna bond was acm business and when we say rayna bond does that mean acm it does right [Applause] and that was all pe not f

02:01:17 and that was all pe not f and who were the individuals at harley who customarily dealt with individuals at reno bond but primarily mark and who was it at raynor bond or

02:01:29 and who was it at raynor bond or alchella i think they would still call that at this time with whom mark harris customarily dealt well deborah french but a lot of the

02:01:40 well deborah french but a lot of the conversation walls through um cep and jeff plays a scene right so there was a a triangle roughly yes and do you know

02:01:51 a triangle roughly yes and do you know how and when mark harris's

02:01:55 commercial relationship with deborah french began

02:02:00 the first reference i have to they were french and uh renault bond would be 2008.

02:02:13 in the context of what project chocolate estate right do you know whether any incentives were provided to harley

02:02:24 to harley uh by rayna bond to use their products over

02:02:28 over other cladding manufacturers no no they weren't not no no no no don't i don't know the answer no they weren't no they weren't so no better prices no better terms and

02:02:40 better prices no better terms and conditions well price is always a factor um depending on the project so there's some projects that

02:02:51 projects that uh a loophole may want on a particular time they'll give us a better rate but that's just normal commercial business now in this email we can see

02:03:03 business now in this email we can see that mr harris is drawing attention to the strength of the relationship between reina bond and harley

02:03:15 between reina bond and harley is was it your impression at the time that that relationship was such that harley

02:03:19 harley uh was um in a better position with rainer bond as opposed to any of other any other suppliers of of rain screen

02:03:32 i think um marth will be able to squeeze a little bit more a little bit of price out of

02:03:38 out of renault i see but so there are plenty of acm manufacturers out there

02:03:45 out there and we only deal with two of them and it looks from this as if mark harris had persuaded reino bond to engage with harley rather than its competitors who might have been

02:03:58 than its competitors who might have been out there competing to supply rain screen on the grenfell tower project is is that is that a fair reading of this

02:04:08 email in in terms of engaging with us yes yes it doesn't mean to say that renaissance didn't give the same price to our competitors

02:04:21 the same price to our competitors can you go to your statement then at paragraph 27 page seven please you say there that um harley discussed cladding options

02:04:34 harley discussed cladding options being considered by studio with debt with deborah french in the autumn of 2013.

02:04:39 2013. who had harley had those discussions was that mark harris yes were you privy to can you tell us anything about the content or nature of those

02:04:51 uh discussions think i've seen some email chains where debra french is um sending emails to to mark mark saying the back and i think

02:05:02 to mark mark saying the back and i think there may even be some um emails with studio e involved um could you look at page 100 sorry page 28 paragraph 112 of your statement

02:05:16 you say there um this is 10 lines or so up from the bottom you say having reviewed harley drawings for the grenfell project alcoa are now iconic never raised any

02:05:27 alcoa are now iconic never raised any concerns or questions about its use we looked at that earlier before in your in your evidence this is a slightly different question do you remember which drawings which harley drawings were sent to deborah french

02:05:40 no i don't did you or to your knowledge anybody else at harley make deborah french aware that grenfell tower was a high-rise building it which

02:05:51 was a high-rise building it which exceeded 18 meters in height yes and i don't think i know that like i know now

02:05:59 know now that debra french and chef blades met with um studio e architects way before we were ever involved so they were full knowledge of the product

02:06:11 were full knowledge of the product of the project completely independently of us

02:06:14 of us do you know when that was i think it was from documents i've read i think it was february

02:06:24 february 2013 although it may be early do you know whether miss french knew what other materials were to be used within the cladding system for example rs 5000 or

02:06:37 for example rs 5000 or fr 5000 does it then what i don't know

02:06:46 can i ask you to look at cep3049719 please this is an email from deborah french at alcoa

02:06:58 from deborah french at alcoa later iconic to neil wilson jeff blades and roy feuster at cep and it's dated the 13th of may 2013. i just want to look at it with you in some detail

02:07:11 some detail she says hi and the subject is bbc report

02:07:15 report ref acm in uae as you may be aware there have been some reports via bbc concerning a fire on a building in uae regarding acm

02:07:27 building in uae regarding acm as a business we are aware of this report

02:07:30 report and our technical team are following the details but in the meantime i wanted to add some thoughts that may help if you get questions from your customers straight clients etc regarding the supply of reyna bond in

02:07:41 regarding the supply of reyna bond in the uk as you know we supply both pe and fr core and can control and understand what core is being used in all products due to the controlled supply route we have by only supplying rene bond

02:07:53 have by only supplying rene bond to a very small group of approved fabricators and working very closely with their model projects we are able to follow what type of project is being designed straight developed and then

02:08:04 designed straight developed and then offer the right rainer bond specification including the core at this stage we will continue to offer both pe and fr core and continue the close working relationship we have with our

02:08:15 working relationship we have with our approved fabricators to make sure the right technical support rainer bond specification and materials are being used and installed on raynaud projects

02:08:24 projects many thanks for making me aware of the reports and for your continued support warm regards debbie

02:08:34 were you made aware at this time or at any time thereafter may 13 of this email or the gist of its

02:08:45 may 13 of this email or the gist of its contents do you think no i'm shocked why are you shocked well they're actually talking about the fire

02:08:56 they're actually talking about the fire and the cause and the telling cep and none of that's been fit back down to us

02:09:08 so you're shocked are you did you not see this email in the course of no preparing a witness name i've not seen that

02:09:25 were you aware i think it would follow i think i know the answer to this but i have to ask you that the fire performance of acm would differ

02:09:34 differ perhaps considerably depending on whether a pe or fr core was being used

02:09:45 they the bba certificate i've seen shows that they're both class o with one producing slightly less smoke than the other

02:09:56 than the other i know when the fire tests were carried out after the tragedy that both the um

02:10:10 fr and the pe corps failed the tests

02:10:19 can i then turn to the booth murray quote are you familiar with what that means yes i know yes all right let's see how see if we can click this quite quickly b can i ask you to be shown b l m

02:10:33 6 0 1 4 page 3 please

02:10:40 this is an email from mark stapley to stuart merden at booth murray dated the 25th of february 2015.

02:10:50 uh and his copy to ben bailey your son heist you further to our earlier telephone conversation please find attached our panel requirements for grenfell tower please can you provide us with your most competitive price and also confirm lead

02:11:02 competitive price and also confirm lead times

02:11:02 times if you require any further information please do not hesitate to call were you aware at this time february 15 that mr stapley had approached beauty murray for a quote

02:11:14 murray for a quote i i wasn't

02:11:17 you weren't aware no

02:11:23 now take this from me we can we can be checked if i'm wrong about this but arconic

02:11:28 arconic alcoa iconic had given a price for rayna bond acm

02:11:32 bond acm per square meter of 23 pounds 75 p to booth murray but the price that arconic gave to cep

02:11:45 but the price that arconic gave to cep at this time is 23 pounds 25 p per square meter a 50 p difference per square meter did you know that arconic had given uh

02:11:57 did you know that arconic had given uh cep a better price for acm than booth murray

02:12:02 murray no would you would you does it surprise you that they did that just 50p differences yes but does it surprise you that there was a difference not especially no can you account for it

02:12:16 not especially no can you account for it they may may be to do with the quantity that they buy and they get a ball called a discount can i ask you to look at blm 709 at page one please

02:12:33 this is an email of the 6th of july from ben bailey to booth murray inquiries email address

02:12:43 this is at the bottom of the page providing drawings to quote against the grenfell tower project please can you quote an expected lead time as well

02:12:55 and the response to it is the next day from jim blair to ben bailey 7th of july we're awaiting a reply from rayner bonders whether we can procure materials quickly and then

02:13:07 quickly and then that then continues at the top of the page with further exchanges on the 8th of july

02:13:12 of july between jim blair and ben bailey and others

02:13:20 um now at this stage cep had already started supplying the rayner bond acm in march 2015 that's right isn't it yep do you know why it is that boo muri were approached for a quote

02:13:31 approached for a quote after harley had already engaged cep to fabricate the panels for grenfell it may be because

02:13:41 cp were slow in delivering the panels and

02:13:45 and meeting the program this is one of the advantages that we spoke of earlier about the use of acm

02:13:52 of acm because we actually have a number of suppliers who can provide us with the same thing right do you know that or this is something i should be asking ben bailey just something i did i suspect that's the answer right okay

02:14:07 now i want to turn to a different topic which is the relationship between harley and ryden

02:14:12 and ryden can we start with ryd401228 this is an email the 24th of august 2013. so

02:14:20 2013. so pretender from mark harris to jonathan roland at ryden and you're copied in on this

02:14:26 this i just wait for it to come up on the screen yes there it is it says hi jonathan are you guys tracking a project called grenfell tower we have been tracking this one for quite a while the application was withdrawn

02:14:37 a while the application was withdrawn but some updated elevations have appeared on the planning portal and the odu has been advertised this one has quotes our quote name written all over it it's typical of the type of work we were jointly involved with at both chalkits and ferrier

02:14:48 chalkits and ferrier i've attached a copy of the oju plus a copy of the latest abbey report typical elevation

02:14:53 elevation and an image of the existing tower facade and you can see the attachments there

02:14:57 there is is it right to say that mark harris was liaising with ryden at really a very early stage august 13 regarding grenfell yes yes now we we've

02:15:10 yes yes now we we've uh well

02:15:13 uh well um let's look at this it's ryd401398 this is an email of the 27th of september 2013. just after the hayes galleria meeting we discussed earlier this afternoon

02:15:27 and we can see

02:15:30 that it's in fact the same day in the middle of the afternoon it's only a few hours after that meeting and it's an email from mark harris to steve blake and jonathan roland and

02:15:41 steve blake and jonathan roland and you're copied in on it hi steve how are things progressing with the pqq

02:15:45 the pqq on grenfell tower as you might recall we made contact with the architect about cladding back in april he called up a few days ago and asked for a meeting ray and myself met with bruce sainz and thomas wreck of studio e

02:15:57 bruce sainz and thomas wreck of studio e architects this morning we had a good session talking about several aspects including available products interface details program access

02:16:04 access design and budget costs we spoke extensively about ferry a point being that there are a number of strong similarities between ferry and grenfell i think they might play well pay i'm sorry i think they might well pay a visit to newham in the near future

02:16:16 visit to newham in the near future when you're expected to hear back on your pqq submission i've read that in full to you um so you can see the full um extent of the of the exchange or the

02:16:27 extent of the of the exchange or the statement there um

02:16:31 writing at this stage weren't formally involved in the project were they

02:16:35 no and they were just a potential contractor yes and that would be something for the tmo to decide who to put on their list yes that's what the is for exactly

02:16:47 the is for exactly um but nonetheless here is harley keeping ryden aware of developments yes yes yes did did you have a personal contact

02:16:57 contact at ryden at this point how do you mean a personal contact well we can see that mark harris talks to steve blake let's start with mark harris was steve steve blake and mark harris well known

02:17:08 steve blake and mark harris well known to each other

02:17:11 steve blake was the contracts manager at um chalcots and became the contract director at ferrier point

02:17:21 point so on those two projects yes we knew steve blake yeah and steve blake was known to you presumably as well yes from from chalkits and ferrier point correct

02:17:35 would it be unusual for harley to be

02:17:40 not talking to or nudging along a potential project with a possible potential contractor uh even before the tender process had really got going

02:17:55 yeah it's not unusual a lot of these projects we that we get involved with can run for years

02:18:01 years before they come to fruition so [Music]

02:18:06 [Music] it it really isn't unusual to be talking to potential main contractors right can i ask you to go to har 50913

02:18:20 this is an email from mark harris to simon lawrence copied to steve blake and others including you 7th of february 2014.

02:18:32 2014. now 7th of february 2014 is at a time when the tender process is ongoing it hadn't been decided morning simon just another quick update

02:18:43 morning simon just another quick update on what we know so far according to keep note they declined in the end due to tender time scales as did wait

02:18:49 wait i believe this leaves you guys durkan and mulally i spoke to mulally yesterday and the chap there said he'd been busy on another tender away get around to looking at it until early next week durkheim are the only ones that have

02:19:00 durkheim are the only ones that have shown any interest at all but to be honest they have no pedigree with this type of work hopefully all this means that ryden will be in a strong position it's all down to you now simon no pressure regards mark harris

02:19:13 why do you i mean you were copied in on this to your understanding why was harley keen to ensure that ryden was kept so

02:19:19 kept so up to date with the progress of the bid for the main contractor and the doings of other potential competitors in the bid i i think it's because we had a better

02:19:29 better relationship with history with ryden than the other main contractors right it looks from this that harley was keen to see ryden appointed as the principal contractor on grenfell is that a fair i think that's a fair

02:19:40 is that a fair i think that's a fair point that point can we look then at the tender

02:19:43 tender uh art 402087 just looking at page one of that

02:19:56 this is the this is the tender submission it's dated 13th of february 2014 you can't see it from this page but take that from me um do you recognize this document from

02:20:07 um do you recognize this document from its first page no you don't did you ever see the tender submission no you didn't no do you remember whether you or anybody

02:20:19 do you remember whether you or anybody else were asked to provide ryan with information about harley for putting into their tender submission um i i don't remember but it wouldn't surprise me if if mark supplies

02:20:32 wouldn't surprise me if if mark supplies some information for them right d did you know that uh harley had been asked to provide or rather let me put this a different way did you know that harley

02:20:44 way did you know that harley harley's cvs for particular executives were held by ryden

02:20:54 no but again i'm not supposed to they could have come off previous projects with them well let's look at page 44 of this document

02:21:10 we can see here this is deep into it and this is part of the cvs for the people that we'll be working with ryden on the team

02:21:16 team and here it says grenfell tower harley curtin wall limited supply chain partner to ride in construction i'm just pausing there at this time mid february 2013

02:21:28 february 2013 what arrangements were in place as between ryden and harley to make harley ryden's supply chain partner uh none can you explain why ryden was

02:21:39 uh none can you explain why ryden was telling

02:21:40 telling the um his potential client the tmo that harley was its supply chain partner

02:21:50 no particularly as they were telling us that our price was too high and can we have some money off please uh you can see that um mr ankurl james's cv details are set out there and if we

02:22:02 cv details are set out there and if we flip over the next page we can see that there are other cvs for other people like mark stapley yep and next page please rob maxwell next page please

02:22:15 i'm not sure that one takes us very far but certainly you can see the ones i've shown you

02:22:22 shown you and it looks from this document perhaps you can't comment but harley and ryden were being presented by ryden as a joint

02:22:31 joint joint venture or joint partnership i think that looks did you know that i didn't know that right

02:22:42 did ryden ever come to you and say to you well look we're including some cvs of your

02:22:47 of your of your surveying team and your designer in

02:22:50 in our tender submission can you just make sure they're accurate before we send them out

02:22:54 them out i i don't know

02:23:02 right

02:23:08 so you can't explain why mr stapley's for example stapley's cv was included in here i i i suspect it was requested by ryden's and mark must have sent it over

02:23:20 and mark must have sent it over to your knowledge did anybody at ryden uh seek to tailor the cv of each of these individuals to the range of skills and the job that they

02:23:31 range of skills and the job that they were supposed to do on the grenfell tower project if harley were appointed a subcontractor this is a new documentary site don't know what they've done

02:23:51 [Applause]

02:23:59 can i just and mr chairman i'm looking at the clock as it turns towards 4 30. i'm going to have a go the next topic but i may not complete it um we've got five minutes is it worth starting it

02:24:11 starting it i don't think i'm going to complete it in five minutes i might

02:24:16 i think better not try it probably wiser yeah

02:24:21 yeah is that a convenient moment i think it probably is yes thank you well mr bailey we're going to uh call a halt there for the day okay but i'm afraid i'm going to have to ask you to come back tomorrow

02:24:32 ask you to come back tomorrow to face some more questions i hope that's convenient um so we'll stop now and we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning fine and please remember as i've said to

02:24:43 fine and please remember as i've said to you many times now not to discuss your evidence

02:24:46 evidence or anything to do with it while you're away from the room right that's fine good all right well thank you very much for being here today we'll look forward to seeing you tomorrow thank you and if you go with the our show she'll

02:24:57 and if you go with the our show she'll look after you thank you thank you very

02:25:08 much good thank you very much we'll stop there and resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning please thank you

02:25:31 you