Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Kensington & Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation Evidence - Monday 28th June 2021 (1/2)
00:00:34 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to continue hearing evidence from mr robert black say would you ask mr black to come in please
00:00:55 good morning mr black let's sit take a moment to get organized
00:01:08 all right yeah yes when you're ready good morning members of the panel good morning good morning to you mr black when we broke on thursday evening we were discussing the question of door
00:01:20 were discussing the question of door closers and laura johnson's attitude to them laura johnson said no to this you'll recall that's where we'd got to
00:01:28 got to yes um can i show you please tm01001
00:01:35 [Music] 7254
00:02:00 yes thank you uh this is the now familiar deficiency note is this it by the lfb or lf epa for grenfell tower of the 17th of
00:02:12 for grenfell tower of the 17th of november 2016. uh and if we look at page five
00:02:20 please this is the schedule of fire safety audit observations uh it followed an audit conducted by the lfb
00:02:30 lfb uh and if you just cast your eye down what's on the screen in front of you and if we can have this the screen scroll down a bit please to the bottom of that page you'll see that there were a number of
00:02:42 you'll see that there were a number of uh
00:02:42 uh breaches of the rro identified in it my first question is did you see this document at the time i think i probably did yes you think you
00:02:53 i think i probably did yes you think you probably did the difficulty for us is that we have no record of your seeing it before your report to the board on the 17th of march 2017 is that correct
00:03:06 i
00:03:10 sorry i can't recall actually right if i'd seen it um after adair tower on the 31st of october 2015 so a year or so before and the and your
00:03:22 so a year or so before and the and your discovery
00:03:24 discovery uh on the morning of that fire or thereabouts of the existence of a prior a prior notice of deficiency did you not want to know about every notice of deficiency as soon as it came in uh yes
00:03:37 as soon as it came in uh yes yes did you issue a a dictat an order a command saying whenever a notice of deficiency comes in i want it on my desk
00:03:46 desk did you issue a command like that i can't recall no you i think it's something you'd remember there isn't it if you had yes unless i said variability yes
00:03:57 yes unless i said variability yes do you agree looking at uh well perhaps let's look at article 17 one at the foot of page five on the
00:04:08 17 one at the foot of page five on the top of page six you look at article 71 it's referring to the protected route and and if you look at the very foot of page five
00:04:18 five with the capital letters it says the protected route has been compromised by the fitting of doors that do not self-close flats 44 and 153 were checked to audit and did not self-close
00:04:31 to audit and did not self-close whenever you saw this document would you accept that it was absolutely clear mid-november 2016 that the lfp were concerned at the self-closer issue
00:04:42 concerned at the self-closer issue in numerous tma blocks including grenfell tower yes and that the lfb were particularly concerned
00:04:49 concerned by the failure of the tmo to have a planned program of maintenance of self-closures across the stock yes what did you do at the time to satisfy yourself
00:04:59 yourself that the regime for maintenance of self-closers was sufficient
00:05:07 i probably didn't why is that yeah imagine it be picked up through the fire risk actions and the work carried out by a repairs company or contractor right but but given the importance of
00:05:20 right but but given the importance of notices of deficiency and you're not being kept fully informed was this not something that you wanted to keep your finger on the pulse of
00:05:31 obviously not close enough
00:05:35 the the the perhaps we should look at page one for this please can we go back to page one of this but you'll see on page one of this document that the deadline
00:05:43 deadline uh in the first paragraph there for cure was the 18th of may 2017.
00:05:51 did you understand in november 2016 uh that there was such a deadline uh i can't you can't remember
00:06:04 and did you understand the consequences for the tmo if the deadline was breached or exceeded
00:06:12 our expectation the work would be taken carried out well did you do anything to satisfy yourself at the time that that that the tma was using its reasonable best steps to meet the deadline
00:06:23 best steps to meet the deadline my expectation is my my health and safety manager would have done that so someone else yes in your organization yes and what did you do to monitor keep your finger on the pulse to make sure that that health and safety manager
00:06:35 sure that that health and safety manager was doing
00:06:36 was doing everything in her reasonable power to ensure that that deadline was met which is supported by a manager can we then go to tm0100-45908
00:06:52 did i say 17.
00:07:01 now this is uh an email
00:07:07 if you go please to page two in this email run this is dated the 23rd of november 2016.
00:07:20 of november 2016. and just for your chronological uh information it's a day before the day before a tmo board meeting on the 24th of november 2016.
00:07:32 2016. and it's an email from judith blakeman to you
00:07:36 to you and it starts while mr daphne engages in hyperbole
00:07:40 hyperbole in his grenfell action group blog it is read by most residents of the tower and the most recent article causes me concern
00:07:47 concern mr daffan discussed the fire safety issue with me at a recent meeting and i did point out that the instructions in the event of fire had been included in one of the refurbishment newsletters however i do take his point that
00:07:58 however i do take his point that instructions are not permanently available on notice boards nor in a discrete letter to all residents and in appropriate languages where required and i'm asking whether this can be rectified
00:08:10 be rectified now this is a reference well to the gag blog when you received this email
00:08:16 email were you aware of the gag blog the grenfell action group blog was i aware of it yes had you read the blog before you received this email do you think
00:08:26 you think no you hadn't right let's look at it it's tmo
00:08:31 it's tmo double zero eight three five six six
00:08:38 zero uh and uh it's dated the 20th of november 2016 and the title is kctmo playing with fire and there's a photograph of a tower
00:08:50 and there's a photograph of a tower block with fire emerging from one of its windows and the first paragraph reads it is a truly terrifying thought but the grenfell action group firmly believed that only a catastrophic event
00:09:01 believed that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord the kctmo and bring to an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and
00:09:12 that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders and then if you go to page two
00:09:18 after the second uh after the second uh whatever you call it the link
00:09:30 uh whatever you call it the link web link it says uh in the aftermath of the adair tower fire the london fire brigade found that the kctmo had not been looking after the safety of residents properly
00:09:42 safety of residents properly had issued an enforcement order compelling them to improve the fire safety in the escape staircases and to provide self-closing devices to all the tower blocks front doors a further audit by the london fire brigade
00:09:53 further audit by the london fire brigade of the neighbouring hazelwood tower located alongside edertow found similar breaches of health and safety legislation and an enforcement order was also issued for this property forcing the tmo to address the serious
00:10:04 forcing the tmo to address the serious concerns of the fire brigades inspectors and then i don't need the last few lines of that
00:10:12 of that and then it goes on to say in the last 20 years and despite the terrifying power surge incident in 2013 and the recent fire at air tower the residents of grenfell tower have
00:10:23 residents of grenfell tower have received no proper fire safety instructions from the kctmo
00:10:27 kctmo residents were informed by a temporary notice stuck in the lift and one announcement in a recent regeneration newsletter that they should remain in their flats in the event of fire there are not and have never been any instructions posted
00:10:38 have never been any instructions posted in the grenfell tower notice board or on individual floor as to how residents should act in the event of a fire
00:10:44 fire anyone who witnessed the recent tower block at shepherds caught in nearby shepherds bush will know that the advice to remain in our properties would have led to certain fatalities and we're calling on our landlord to reconsider the advice they have so badly circulated
00:10:58 and then uh in uh the last paragraph in bold uh and i'll read it just so that people can remember the particular blog the grenfell action
00:11:10 particular blog the grenfell action group predict that it won't be long before the words of this blog come back to haunt the kctma management and we will do everything in our power to ensure that those in authority know how long and how appallingly our landlord has ignored their
00:11:21 landlord has ignored their responsibility to ensure the health and safety of their tenants and leaseholders they can't say that they haven't been warned now trying to leave aside the tone of that
00:11:33 trying to leave aside the tone of that email
00:11:34 email the language of it
00:11:37 did you read it at the time do you remember uh yes what did you think of it
00:11:47 [Music] i think it mixed up certain things we mean we'd know about the fire a day the dare had been checked for the fire brigade before and had
00:11:58 fire brigade before and had passed it they told us it was being checked again because of the fire so it's not all true
00:12:08 so i sent it on to my health and safety person
00:12:11 person for review so we could find out
00:12:17 well let's let's just examine that now as i say leaving aside the tone there are within this blog post and a number of on one view
00:12:30 and a number of on one view serious factual allegations about the tmo's failure to act in respect of fire safety aren't there yes
00:12:38 yes and principally would you agree that those factual allegations are about self-closers as revealed by the adair tower fire yes yes uh the failure to post proper fire
00:12:49 yes uh the failure to post proper fire action notices at grenfell tower yes yes yes and the inappropriate nature so the post believed of the stay put
00:13:00 so the post believed of the stay put advice for granville tower itself yes well i mean that's a view about the stay put yeah in a sense the staples strategy was still the advice we got from london firebrick
00:13:11 firebrick yes uh it it's a it's a factual allegation though isn't it being made that uh that there is the stay put advice
00:13:19 advice and then an opinion being added to that that in the view of the writer it was inappropriate for grenfell tower it's a view yes yes now did you ask any of your officers to investigate
00:13:30 to investigate or report to you about any of those allegations that i've just listed i would have sent it on to my health and safety advisor for their view on this so that would be
00:13:43 on this so that would be who janice wrote
00:13:47 right you s did you did you say i i i'm puzzled any because we don't see a record of i think of you um saying to janice ray could you please
00:13:59 um saying to janice ray could you please tease out from this blog post the hard edged factual allegations and investigate them please so that i can give
00:14:07 give an empirically and databased response to it
00:14:11 it well i'm surprised there's not one right um let's go to tmo double zero eight six five eight three zero
00:14:24 uh this is an email from barbara matthews to janice ray
00:14:32 dated the 5th of december 2016. so a week or two later janice i've spoken to robert and he agrees we should do nothing this is not the sort of website we should be
00:14:44 is not the sort of website we should be responding to
00:14:48 did you say that i i'm having to remember sorry the first time i've seen this
00:14:55 this i haven't come across it before well did you say that well that's what i'm trying to recall
00:15:04 well can you can you yes raise it up so i can see the bottom please do you want to see that yes of course it's a it is a response from barbara matthews too janice ray
00:15:16 uh dude is that what you look i'm happy yeah no that's the bit i just wanted to read if that's all right of course we can look at the whole string if you like no it's fine
00:15:30 okay
00:15:34 well let's actually you you'll know it's fine notes i've read no i i think i want to show you a document actually but let's be fair to you and say that everyone else can see the full context and let's go to the
00:15:45 the full context and let's go to the bottom of page two this is an email in fact from peter madison
00:15:51 madison of the 2nd of december 2016. so a little bit it's a little bit before the one i was going to show you to somebody called trudeau scriven at the team at tmo and pete griffiths and janice ray who
00:16:02 and pete griffiths and janice ray who was true to scriven i'm trying to remember was she a lawyer an in-house lawyer we didn't have an in-house lawyer right i'm
00:16:13 didn't have an in-house lawyer right i'm not sure
00:16:14 not sure so i can't recall the name okay um no leaving that on one side he's he says trudeau and pete attached as a recent posting on mr dathan's grenfell action group website trudeau could any of the allegations be
00:16:26 trudeau could any of the allegations be described as libelous the comments are scare-mongering at the least do we need to respond to reassure residents
00:16:32 residents pete and janice i would appreciate your advice
00:16:36 advice now that that's that's how this email chain starts and then it goes on at the foot of one which is where i think you wanted to go yeah
00:16:44 yeah janice ray to barbara matthews 2nd of december
00:16:48 december you don't see this of course at the time uh barbara i've highlighted the section in the recent blog which peter has just circulated which refers to the fire death at hazelwood if you're agreeable i'd like to forward this to the borough commander and request his view on how he can respond
00:16:59 request his view on how he can respond to this without breaching any confidentiality issues and ideally with also getting the lfb's buy into our response please confirm you're happy for me to do this and then the response at the top from
00:17:10 and then the response at the top from barbara matthews i've just shown you janice i've spoken to robert and he agrees we should do nothing this is not the sort of website we should be responding to so that's the full context
00:17:22 responding to so that's the full context did you think this uh blog was scaremongering as mr madison seems to have thought i think the the thing around the death at hazelwood i think has never been proved that there was a death or fire a death a hazelwood
00:17:36 was a death or fire a death a hazelwood apart from that well i think that's quite i mean that's partly when you get this mixture of uh people saying things that are true that are not true and keep on repeating them right so it was the aim here
00:17:47 was the aim here to fasten on the allegation that was not true uh and not deal with those that were a i can't recall at that time sorry
00:17:58 recall at that time sorry right what about the rest of it leave aside the hazelwood allegation of death was the whole of it scaremongering hey i haven't read it all
00:18:09 hey i haven't read it all um right i've read you a fair bit of it the bit i've read to you is that all scaremongering do you think not all of it no
00:18:16 it no no and then if we go to the the top um where it says i've spoken to robert and he agrees that we should do nothing my question
00:18:23 question again did you agree with barbara matthews that you should do nothing i can't recall the conversation but imagine
00:18:33 imagine if barbara said i did i did and when she says this is not the sort of website website we should be responding to is that something you told her or was that her own statement i think it might be a wrong statement
00:18:45 might be a wrong statement do you know can you can you help us well i think we had issues with websites in terms of actually which are working on non-regulated space
00:18:56 are working on non-regulated space and we've taken employment and legal advice about how best to deal with them and in the sense the advice we got in terms of
00:19:06 terms of that was to protect our staff by not seeing it
00:19:10 seeing it uh senior managers could still see it uh it had been a thing that started some time ago not particularly this website which led us to that view there was another one which had
00:19:22 another one which had we tried for ages to to reason with it to deal with it to manage it and eventually just got to stage we couldn't do anything about it so after consulting the police hr and our lawyers they advise us
00:19:35 hr and our lawyers they advise us in terms of duty care you should block them where it feels it's attacking our staff in terms of in a lot libelous or horrible way
00:19:47 yes the problem with that approach do you agree
00:19:51 you agree is that if you take a blanket approach to not responding to anything in blogs you might miss allegations which are actually
00:19:59 actually not only true but important that's a risk isn't it there is a risk yes but in a sense as for us
00:20:06 for us as an organization trying to manage so that in a sense there wasn't just one blog you know across all local authorities you have these and it's quite difficult just to keep on top of
00:20:17 quite difficult just to keep on top of them
00:20:18 them in terms of uh and that's just the position you find yourself in it's quite hard to and if if you do find something that's not true you can't really do anything about it i mean we we have tried
00:20:31 mean we we have tried when it all started for a considerable period to try to address it to get the the the sites that hosted it to address it but it became so resource-hungry that we just had to stop
00:20:43 just had to stop so as i said after taking legal advice and employment advice we came to decision to do that now we know that the tmo did actually respond
00:20:53 respond to judith blakeman's email let's go to that it's tmo one double zero four five nine zero eight
00:21:04 uh this is the chain we were on and we can see that at the top of the chain janice ray's response to judith blakeman copied to you and barbara matthews dated the 24th of november 2016
00:21:16 the 24th of november 2016 at 8 51 robert has asked me to respond to your email highlighting fire safety issues raised by mr daphon in his blog so you did instruct her to respond to her
00:21:29 you did instruct her to respond to her and we can see the response it's quite lengthy um i'll just show it to you with regard to fire procedures in grenfell tower i can confirm that these were included in newsletters to the block and they were also documented
00:21:40 the block and they were also documented on our website further we do publish regular fire safety articles in the link magazine to all
00:21:44 all residents and we write all all new tenants to outline the fire strategy for their block for proceeded to follow in the event of a fire in their flat but also a fire elsewhere in their block and advise them of london fire brigades
00:21:56 and advise them of london fire brigades free home fire safety visit and how to access this additionally i can advise that we are currently considering a programme of installation of fire action notices similar to those now installed at air
00:22:07 similar to those now installed at air and hazelwood towers across all blocks there has been a difference of opinion amongst london fire brigade officers on the value of fitting these notices within a block with a staple fire strategy however we're keen to be
00:22:18 fire strategy however we're keen to be proactive about this and i can confirm that we will be proceeding with the fitting of these notices at grenfell tower
00:22:23 tower it's likely that this will be completed within the next two weeks and then it goes on uh however mr daphon appears to be challenging the stay put fire strategy stating that this is the wrong strategy
00:22:35 this is the wrong strategy that we should be adopting a one-out-all-out approach at grenfell tower
00:22:38 tower i'd emphasize that despite extensive discussions with the lfb and other fire professionals including our fire consultant and senior consultants from specialist fire engineering companies in relation to grenfell tower
00:22:49 to grenfell tower at no point is the need to change the state but strategy even been raised further the lfb operational crews continue to be very proactive about undertaking regular familiarization visits to this block and the other blocks on this estate
00:23:01 blocks on this estate and remain content with the arrangements in place
00:23:05 in place and then the last paragraph it is about hazelwood
00:23:09 hazelwood and in in the second sentence it says this
00:23:13 this i can confirm that adair tower was regularly audited by the lfb most recent in the months before the fire took place and no recommendations were made in relation to the design of either staircase
00:23:24 either staircase or the lift lobbies requirements in relation to these areas were included in the enforcement notices as it was only following that fire that the lfb recommended that changes to the building's original design were required
00:23:37 building's original design were required i hope this is helpful please let me know if i can be a further assistance regards janice ray did you see a draft of janice ray's response before she sent it to councillor blakeman i may not have
00:23:50 to councillor blakeman i may not have now
00:23:51 now right now
00:23:55 right now do you agree that her description of lfb's audit of adair tower in october 2015
00:24:03 2015 the same month as the fire emits to say that it resulted in a deficiency notice i can yes and specifically it was a deficiency notice among other things
00:24:14 deficiency notice among other things about door closers specifically yes do you agree that that that omission meant that the description of the lfb's findings
00:24:25 findings was thoroughly disingenuous it would appear so yes yes because it only gave the good half of the picture and not the bad yes can you account for why janice ray was
00:24:36 can you account for why janice ray was uh giving a thoroughly disingenuous description of the lfb's findings to councillor blakeman i count let's go to rbk40 please
00:24:49 let's go to rbk40 please this is an email chain on the 25th of january 2017.
00:24:59 at the foot of the email chain and and uh this is where janice uh ray uh if you go uh to page two
00:25:12 uh to page two uh is forwarding to you and sasha jevons uh copied to a wide variety of uh staff within both tmo and repairs direct
00:25:24 staff within both tmo and repairs direct uh the letter from the lfb uh and it goes on confirming that the work specified in the enforcement notice of tower have been satisfactorily completed
00:25:34 completed within the has been satisfactorily completed within the specified time limit uh lfb have confirmed that they will be sending a similar letter in relation to hazelwood and i will afford a copy of this when we receive it
00:25:46 receive it and then if you go up to the foot of page one you respond to or rather you you forward this on i should say i'm sorry i'm sorry to laura johnson 25th of january same day
00:25:58 25th of january same day and you say laura for information somewhere it might be good to meet to look at how we respond to the fire brigade is i think we're being driven down a road by a group which seems to be unaccountable is the overall responsibility for this
00:26:10 is the overall responsibility for this moving to the mayor might give us an la political leaders to influence the area more
00:26:18 now why why did you write that i think at the time that across london uh people were talking that there was
00:26:30 uh people were talking that there was different
00:26:31 different uh ways the fire brigade would respond into door closures there wasn't a consistent some far be lfb people weren't saying that and i think it was to because i knew
00:26:43 and i think it was to because i knew laura was
00:26:44 laura was director of london housing or chair of director
00:26:47 director uh chair of london house and directors and it was to try to get a view from her as well
00:26:53 as well and i thought also has she made her lead member for housing understanding what's going on and in terms of actually what's happening in london in terms of the farm again because it seems to be that you've got
00:27:04 because it seems to be that you've got different response in different places i think that was the context i was trying to express why not just challenge the enforcement notice in court
00:27:15 yeah well that would have been a council decision not mine uh uh no uh great respect the tmo was the recipient of the enforcement notice was it not yes so why not
00:27:27 notice was it not yes so why not challenge it in court i would really like to challenge the lfb in court so would you i think it was about trying to find a political position about how
00:27:39 a political position about how the the london firebait wouldn't act consistent across all london boroughs so is it that you prefer to use backdoor political influence over the lfb
00:27:51 political influence over the lfb uh as opposed to a legal challenge to the
00:27:54 the lfb enforcement nation no i think it's just political influence i don't think it political influence isn't backdoor it's just about actually what are the do the politicians know what's going on on the ground so you know that's that's a position
00:28:07 so you know that's that's a position i don't think presenting backdoor about it well
00:28:11 it well all right it's not like but but how would
00:28:14 would exercising political influence um be transparent in the same way that a court hearing
00:28:21 hearing in which the enforcement notice was challenged
00:28:25 i didn't wasn't thinking of going to court i was trying to understand the situation
00:28:30 situation okay
00:28:33 did you actually ever consider or or consider taking legal advice on the question of whether or not you should challenge
00:28:39 challenge the lfb's enforcement notice for adair tower on the question of uh door closers i can't recall sir i don't think i did no no now can we go please to rbk
00:28:50 now can we go please to rbk triple zero four six six zero three
00:29:04 uh and uh if we go please to uh the
00:29:11 to uh the second email on that page uh from barbara matthews to laura johnson 3rd of march 2017
00:29:23 it says laura just to confirm our discussion and agreement at the joint management team on wednesday meeting on wednesday we agreed we would have a program of fitting of self-closers on existing flat
00:29:34 fitting of self-closers on existing flat doors if not already fitted and refit straight repair self-closures if already fitted this program would not be over one year but proposed as three to five years our recommendation is that the lfb are
00:29:45 our recommendation is that the lfb are unlikely to accept as adequate a program longer than three years although this is yet to be proposed to them the estimated cost for the total program regardless of period of 619 000 pounds in respect to the proposed
00:29:57 000 pounds in respect to the proposed annual inspection to check stroke repair straight replace the self closers you requested that we delay starting this until we've obtained further legal advice
00:30:05 advice on what action we can or can't take against no access by either tenants or leaseholders and then if you turn over the page please let me know if i've incorrectly captured anything in
00:30:17 incorrectly captured anything in addition please confirm that we can include in our updated fire strategy a three-year program for fitting of self-closers on all flat entry door
00:30:28 now laura johnson's response to that is above that email on page one it's dated the 6th of march
00:30:37 march and she says this barbara i can confirm that this is an accurate record of our discussion i'd like to push the installation of door closes to a five-year program it will make funding the program more
00:30:48 it will make funding the program more manageable therefore in the fire strategy i would like it to say five years
00:30:52 years rather than three i'm not convinced of the need for an inspection program if we started one then there's every likelihood it would have to be ongoing and therefore an additional an additional expense to the hra
00:31:03 additional expense to the hra indefinitely without any identifiable evidence
00:31:05 evidence that it impacted positively upon the fire safety of residents i understand that the conversation is not always straightforward with the lfb and they may well push for this but if they want to then they need to introduce it as a london-wide standard
00:31:16 it as a london-wide standard that they will enforce against rather than on a borough by borough basis and we would make representation to the gla accordingly i look forward to the legal advice regards laura now um you're not copied
00:31:27 regards laura now um you're not copied in on this email chain or rather you're not copied in on the response you do you do see as i s as i showed you the response the original email from barbara matthews of the third of the third of march to which
00:31:38 the third of the third of march to which this is a response did you see the response from laura johnson
00:31:44 what this one yes i i can't recall i remember that do you remember whether barbara matthews sought to discuss it with you
00:31:52 with you i'm sure barbara would have talked to me about after her meeting with laura did you agree with laura johnson's decision to push the installation program out to five years
00:32:05 uh i think we just accepted it you just accepted he didn't push back on it
00:32:13 it i can't recall did do you don't remember you or barbara matthews saying to laura johnson that
00:32:24 to laura johnson that there is a positive impact on the fire safety of residents by having an inspection program
00:32:32 i can't recall
00:32:35 but did you agree with her view on the need for an inspection program i.e there wasn't one i think we're at the stage agreeing we had to have one and then it was a question i think what
00:32:46 and then it was a question i think what played
00:32:47 played on their mind a lot was the access as i said i think on thursday was the ability to do it get the access and would you be supported by the courts if you're denied access by tenants or
00:32:59 if you're denied access by tenants or leaseholders i mean we respect that's not completely right is it because in the last paragraph of that email laura johnson's opinion or argument for not having a
00:33:10 opinion or argument for not having a continuing inspection program uh is that it would be an additional expense to the hra without any identifiable evidence that had impacted positively upon the fire safety of residents
00:33:21 residents not not access in other words she doesn't see the cost-benefit ratio uh turning out in favor of spending the money that looks like her opinion from that document it does was that the case at
00:33:33 document it does was that the case at the time
00:33:34 the time i think that was her opinion did you not push back on that i can't recall on this specifically right
00:33:46 to be blunt was this was laura johnson's argument to the way you understood it that she would rather not spend the money and and take the risk i wouldn't understand that as her i think you would
00:33:57 understand that as her i think you would have to ask her that opinion i didn't do you agree that here is laura johnson taking control over how the tmo engaged with the lfb uh and whether and to what extent it
00:34:08 uh and whether and to what extent it complied with what the lfb had asked yes how come
00:34:16 how come she took control over that well i think it was all about funding the program
00:34:20 program so we'd we'd looked at it propose our proposals
00:34:23 proposals and they have controlled the hra and this is their opinion of what to do but these these two decisions installation of self-closers and then an inspection
00:34:35 of self-closers and then an inspection program which surely matters for you and your board as an arms length tenant management organization not for your so-called client
00:34:47 not for your so-called client again as i pointed out my board and myself didn't own the hra the hra sat with the council uh and the business land sat with the council so we would have to go to the council to get the funding agreed
00:34:59 council to get the funding agreed and this was laura's opinion when we put forward our program yes well on that score let me see if i can take a sideways look
00:35:10 let me see if i can take a sideways look at this and just take a small detail um we we discussed this topic you and i on
00:35:16 on day 150 thursday at pages 213 and 214 of the transcript because we talked about laura johnson controlling the purse strings to allow you to comply do you remember that discussion
00:35:28 that discussion uh let me just ask you one or two further questions about that could you please be shown tmo double zero eight six nine five four two
00:35:45 nine five four two now the document that's coming up is uh on page one the first page of a pack
00:35:53 pack for the tmo away day of the second or third of november 2012. now i appreciate mr black that this is some four years before the grenfell tower deficiency
00:36:06 before the grenfell tower deficiency notice we've been looking at and so obviously one must make allowances for that but i just want to ask you
00:36:12 ask you one or two things about it at this time if we go
00:36:16 if we go please first in this pack to page 24
00:36:21 we can see a letter from uh uh laura johnson to faye edwards fayed was was your chair
00:36:33 to faye edwards fayed was was your chair wasn't she yes yes dated the 28th of september uh and if you uh go in that letter to page 26 please
00:36:48 we probably want 25 26 is where you see her her signature at the bottom but we want 25 and then over to the top of 26.
00:36:55 of 26. under the heading effective asset management in the second paragraph she says this
00:37:00 says this the recent survey carried out on the condition of our stock however shows a necessary investment of 105 million pounds over the next five years to carry out basic repairs there is a current allocation of 7.5
00:37:12 there is a current allocation of 7.5 million per year each year for the next four years for capital works which means we have a potential gap between the funding needed to carry out basic repairs
00:37:21 repairs and the funding available to the capital program of 67 million pounds by 2017 this was reported to the board at its last away day the challenge in this funding gap is
00:37:32 this funding gap is that in our business plan we will not have any financing available to catch up on investment and regeneration spending until 2037. by not clearing the repairs backlog sooner and continuing with the same
00:37:43 sooner and continuing with the same level of capital program each year we run the risk of the stock deteriorating decent homes failing not meeting residents needs and not developing homes which support our communities
00:37:54 communities this could have a substantial impact on how our residents perceive both kctmo and the council we therefore face the dilemma of insufficient funding to both maintain and also improve the stock and so
00:38:05 and also improve the stock and so need to look for alternative ways to secure additional investment and to think about how we manage our assets so that we can deliver future investment in the housing stock as identified through the stock condition survey we
00:38:17 through the stock condition survey we intend to investigate ways to increase the investment to improve the stock not only in terms of basics such as kitchens bathrooms and windows but also to fulfill our jointly held ambitions to improve our estates regenerate areas and to build more homes
00:38:31 regenerate areas and to build more homes now um this is 2012. um first did you see this letter at the time do you think uh yes you did it's quite a striking letter it's hard to forget isn't it well i
00:38:42 it's hard to forget isn't it well i think this is around the time 2012 where the
00:38:45 the government had announced their freedoms on the hra so it moved from a government-run hra for the whole of the country to individual borrower whites so for the
00:38:56 individual borrower whites so for the first time it's exploring that a council can actually have more than a one-year program and you can start to look at three five ten thirty-year business plans to see what your gaps are and i think
00:39:07 to see what your gaps are and i think what it does is it shows the the historically the lack of funding in social housing and local authorities yeah and as a result of this gap the funding gap were you under the impression that the tmo
00:39:19 impression that the tmo would struggle to maintain its stock let alone invest new money i think what we're clear of is actually historically the funding wasn't enough to look after send housing properties and here was a
00:39:30 send housing properties and here was a an outline of a plan showing you the gap and what the council is then saying is actually they need to do something different to do that which is what i think started their regeneration proposals
00:39:42 their regeneration proposals and this funding gap um did you accept the gap and its impact on maintenance of your housing stock as a given from this time on i think uh sorry let me
00:39:56 i think uh sorry let me what we we knew is that for the first time we would have a 30-year plan and we could see that the 7 million pound investment would increase uh which meant we had to sort of sort of
00:40:10 uh which meant we had to sort of sort of sort of identify the works as we did through salvos about how you can either offs
00:40:14 offs set them or put them out so it's all about this balance about what you can afford to do and what we can afford to do
00:40:20 do and did you in your mind or did anybody within the tmo in their minds carve out health and safety spending specifically fire safety spending uh from this analysis
00:40:33 uh from this analysis so that come what may money would always be available for fire safety or was fire safety just lumped in with maintenance generally i think it was sort of an overall figure that was then broken down
00:40:44 that was then broken down so lumped in generally
00:40:49 were you given the impression at the time
00:40:52 time from this letter and perhaps from other things said that if the tmo asked for more money from
00:40:58 from rbkc in relation to maintenance of fire safety measures none would be forthcoming i i'm not sure about that but i mean what it meant is that the the asset
00:41:10 what it meant is that the the asset management investment the yearly one had to sort of identify the work that needed to be done
00:41:19 well let me ask you in a different way did this letter and and matters such as this discussed at the time lead you to think um that it would be much more difficult in future
00:41:30 future getting money from rbkc to fund improvements or maintenance of fire safety measures in your stock hey i can't confirm if my view at that time sorry 2012. let's look on in the document please to page 30.
00:41:43 please to page 30. this is a a risk assessment table that appears to have been part of the entertainment for the day or two days and if you look at the first item on the left i think we're gonna have to expand that as before we go further
00:41:55 expand that as before we go further expanding it can i show you the key in the top left hand corner
00:42:00 corner you've got a probability table levels one to five do you see yeah well the description is runs from very likely as level one green low
00:42:11 as level one green low up to five almost certain red high yes yeah and then you also got risk rating on the third box from the left likelihood one to five
00:42:22 box from the left likelihood one to five risk rating and impacts one to five with the reds
00:42:25 the reds in the in in those ranges you see there on the screen and if you look at the at the top row row
00:42:32 row risk one risk identified the organization is unable to respond to the asset funding gap you see that yeah and if you look across likelihood is is is five and that that
00:42:46 likelihood is is is five and that that means almost certain yes yeah uh and the the impact that was four
00:42:51 four uh which means uh serious yes yep yes now you were were you at this away dade yes yes and did you agree with that assessment
00:43:03 did you agree with that assessment i think so do you know who drafted this table who drafted it yes who created it i the board had worked with a set of consultants i think it was our insurers uh that
00:43:16 i think it was our insurers uh that designed it and worked with the board to develop it right and then it was maintained by uh yvonne burch's team in oregon i can't remember the title right
00:43:27 right and then if you look at existing control measures work in conjunction with rbkc on options for hra tmo uh those are the existing control measures and then the residual risk uh the
00:43:40 and then the residual risk uh the funding gap will remain for the next three to five years and long term there could be structure changes what what were the structure changes that were contemplated there i think that's when there were it was
00:43:52 i think that's when there were it was the beginning the idea that rbkc would be looking at their estates about
00:43:57 about regeneration completely different about whether they can increase housing on the stock to increase rental income
00:44:05 income so it's looking at a completely different way and if we look at the second risk in line two row two the organization has no track record of business diversification and may not be able to grow sufficiently
00:44:16 and may not be able to grow sufficiently over the next three years this may mean that rbkc
00:44:19 that rbkc could get another strategic partner and the likelihood of that was three medium likely see that yep impact four again serious but the risk
00:44:30 impact four again serious but the risk rating was uh was 12 yeah so medium
00:44:35 now
00:44:39 obviously that was risk number two that was a real possibility otherwise it wouldn't have been in the table yeah i mean sorry i was just trying to recall the conversation in a sense when between 2000 i think uh
00:44:53 in a sense when between 2000 i think uh 10 and 11 our bkc i think was rendered this time was also looking about whether you would do a stock transfer so a lot of local authorities had had looked at their business plan to see
00:45:04 looked at their business plan to see that they
00:45:05 that they wouldn't or wouldn't be able to generate enough money so to manage their stock so they'd actually over the years transferred quite a lot of
00:45:14 of local authority housing to housing associations who had more money investment to to do that investment so i think rbkc i think they had a housing
00:45:25 had a housing option strategy round about either the year before as well which looked at different options in terms of stock transfer or finding another organization i think in the end that because with hra
00:45:38 i think in the end that because with hra freedoms that they felt they could manage it themselves right let's see and can we go to tmo double zero eight four eight seven six please and go within that document page
00:45:58 14.
00:46:03 now uh th these are the minutes of a board meeting kctma board meeting uh which starts on page one if we can just let go to that this is the second of november 2012. it
00:46:15 this is the second of november 2012. it it it is the away day board it's it seems to be the minutes of that yeah and uh you were present
00:46:21 present or rather in attendance and you could see that there was a large cast of people
00:46:24 people who were there can we go back to page 14.
00:46:30 and under risks you can see there review was financially driven tma would have to evolve in order to deliver key council outputs if we did nothing we might be done to the council could decide that tma should not be part of the solution
00:46:42 not be part of the solution either for management or regeneration tma management could be gradually eroded does that tell us that there was a concern at the the tmo among the senior echelons
00:46:53 the the tmo among the senior echelons that rbkc might terminate the tmos contract
00:46:57 contract uh and get in somebody else if you didn't show them that you could stick to the pre-existing budget even though there was a shortfall i think this was a bigger picture strategy
00:47:07 strategy where the team will book because remember this is the broad day they were looking at big picture stuff so
00:47:14 so it was generally then understanding that you know times were changing and if the tmo
00:47:20 tmo uh didn't evolve or what he wanted to do then you might find yourself you're not part of the solution so i think it was the board just been understanding uh risks and and looking at different
00:47:32 uh risks and and looking at different things uh it was a thinking day i wonder whether you're just underplaying a little bit what does it mean if we did nothing we might be done too
00:47:40 too what does that mean well i think it sounds like they had options to transfer stock so they were a tenant management organization under the legislation if the council wanted to transfer estates or stocks to
00:47:52 wanted to transfer estates or stocks to other partners they had the right to do that
00:47:55 that even though you're you've got an elected uh
00:47:59 uh sort of board so it's about the board understanding the council can look at different options you know indeed but one of those options was either to reduce very significantly the tmo's uh role in management which
00:48:10 the tmo's uh role in management which would mean reducing its management fee uh uh uh alternatively uh terminating the arrangements with the tmo altogether yeah i think that's was the board sort of understand that understanding the
00:48:21 of understand that understanding the positions could be named and the risk to it
00:48:23 it yes can we take it that from this date onwards november 2012 um the uh the rbkc had in effect a financial stranglehold
00:48:34 stranglehold over the tmo because unless you did what uh they told you there was an existential threat to your business i think there's other things we did so from 2012 well first before you do that do you agree
00:48:45 first before you do that do you agree with what i just put to you uh i think there's if if you manage the pressuring the hra that then you have more control rather than if there's a an organization that owned the hra
00:48:56 hra i think it was also a message that the team will take on board that again if you go back sometimes it's performance on performance on specific issues like rent collection void turnaround
00:49:08 collection void turnaround uh leasehold management uh charges been collected
00:49:12 collected so it was very clear that what we had to do that where where the hra had income coming in where are we maximizing it so in terms of over the years from then
00:49:23 so in terms of over the years from then our rent collection improved in terms as a percentage our void turn around improved so that we turned around forwards quicker therefore actually means you brought more income in
00:49:35 i think by the end overall we'd reduce the hra debt which meant actually more money was in in the hra we also managed the hra commercial property within the portfolio which
00:49:45 which over a number of years had sort of been slightly sort of not really developed so we did quite a few things there in terms actually looking at the hra commercial development how we could
00:49:56 commercial development how we could increase the income either by changing making sure you've got if we've got partners that you've got the right contracts in place or changing the use so you could increase the income coming in so there's a whole load of stuff that the tmo could
00:50:08 a whole load of stuff that the tmo could do in terms of actually to improve the hra
00:50:11 hra income and i think there are there are graphs i think showing that overall over those years we reduced the income and that's what imagine we wanted to show
00:50:20 show rbkc that you know we weren't wasting opportunities we created the the hidden homes which added a very small amount of new social
00:50:31 added a very small amount of new social housing to the stock but again it was all about showing that you could actually improve the hra over time because it's the first time you could look at it if you look at the impact over 25 years it all contributes so
00:50:44 25 years it all contributes so it's been a performing better where you can to
00:50:52 influence if you go to page 16 you look at risks there
00:51:02 you can see fourth bullet point down well
00:51:05 well first bullet point stock is split up balkanization third bullet point down unfavorable least conditions fourth bullet tmo is not part of the future
00:51:16 not part of the future and then sixth bullet if the stock is transferred or partially transferred there was a risk of the tma's influence decreasing seventh joint venture is gone for without us being a partner
00:51:29 and then finally if we're chosen as a partner with two thin resources services would suffer and those were risks which were clear to the board
00:51:38 the board these were risks during the process the board so we had a consultant there for the day remember it's a board away date it's not an exact officer away down uh and we were there to facilitate the day so
00:51:50 facilitate the day so really this was a consultant who was managing the day was making the board think
00:51:54 think of actually you know not thinking you're going to survive forever to think about the future to see what the consultant could show you across england and other parts of the country
00:52:05 england and other parts of the country what was happening to local authority housing in general and what was happening to tmos who weren't seen part of that solution so
00:52:14 so you know partly this is then to help the board think through its risks yes i hadn't quite got to the question part sorry it doesn't matter um the risks
00:52:25 it doesn't matter um the risks identified there those remained risks did they not uh between november 2012 and 14th of june 2017. uh
00:52:37 14th of june 2017. uh i i i think well i mean i think that you know you
00:52:41 know you depend on politics things trains i mean i think by then what was clear that rbkc had decided that it didn't want to transfer its stock so
00:52:53 it didn't want to transfer its stock so or didn't want to split up its stock uh
00:53:00 i'm just looking at the at that stage they weren't talking about joint venture but in sense they decided they wanted to do regeneration and working with saviles and some other companies were beginning and had started to look at estates where
00:53:13 and had started to look at estates where they could uh develop them or regenerate them or add more housing so they're taking on that key role uh we weren't part of that
00:53:25 and that's just the you know the the situation we find ourselves in now let's turn to a different topic the fire at relic tower on the 19th of april 2017
00:53:35 2017 uh now do you remember that on the 20th of april 2017 you were sent an email by keith benton about the issues that had arisen uh in that fire on the the 19th
00:53:47 uh in that fire on the the 19th yes yes the the email is at rbk403234
00:53:54 and let's look at page one at the foot of that page uh you can see here's the email tmo it's to you um and and if you turn
00:54:06 tmo it's to you um and and if you turn the page
00:54:07 the page you can see that keith benton who is chair of the trellic tower residents association uh says at the top of page two as i'm sure you're aware there was a major fire on the 27th floor of trellic
00:54:19 major fire on the 27th floor of trellic last night by chance no one was hurt in either the fire or the evacuation residents were extremely good alarming their neighbours making sure everyone evacuated by the stairs etc so well done them
00:54:29 them on the other hand the security guard had no idea whatsoever and what was needed we called serge to find out the drill where the keys to the firebox were etc no alarm was in place no emergency drill
00:54:40 no alarm was in place no emergency drill nothing apparently the water supply was initially insufficient it took 40 minutes to extinguish what developed into a raging blaze this all caused by the thoughtless chucking of a cigarette butt please can you say
00:54:53 of a cigarette butt please can you say there's a list of bullet points what will be put in place to make sure that the security staff know the drill what is the drill in an emergency is there one
00:55:01 there one how can we be sure that the water pressures are always sufficient fire brigade truly familiar with the building and then uh the last two bullet points i don't think we need to look at did you take steps yourself mr black to
00:55:13 did you take steps yourself mr black to address those problems or difficulties identified by mr benton here
00:55:18 here my team did yes the team did did you tell your team to do so or did they do it and then you discovered it no so there was a fire which i was started with uh someone from
00:55:30 which i was started with uh someone from up above
00:55:31 up above threw in a cigarette but which fell into someone's washing down below the fire was held within the compatibilization of the property because they left and
00:55:43 of the property because they left and shut the door and then we looked through when keith senses this we looked through the issues to see what we could do so we spoke to the company that employed the security staff
00:55:54 security staff because they should have known the drill they had been trained on it uh the water pressure i think we got the fire brigade back the next day the familiarization thing
00:56:06 the next day the familiarization thing is they
00:56:06 is they they far brigade visited trellic tower all the time because it's one of our tallest buildings the issue is when you have a fire you might not get the crew that's been there so it's about constantly as we did work
00:56:19 so it's about constantly as we did work with the fire brigade to to make sure their crew is new but if if there was something on you got a crew from a neighboring borough then you have the
00:56:26 the exact same position uh can i just focus on
00:56:31 on one aspect of this which is the security guard
00:56:35 guard where he says the security guard had no idea whatsoever and what was needed uh no alarm in place no emergency drill etc did this email prompt the concern that the
00:56:46 that the the fire safety information was not being adequately communicated to the residents of the building not no because the the company that had employed the security staff had been trained and told about all these issues
00:56:58 trained and told about all these issues before
00:56:59 before and their responsibility was to make sure their staff knew all these things right so you outsourced this that specific part and the employment
00:57:10 that specific part and the employment the the security guard was it wasn't a caretaker type thing it was a specific thing historically right for a trellic tower
00:57:21 let's go next please to rbk402340 this is an email chain uh in may 2017 the following month between you
00:57:32 may 2017 the following month between you and laura johnson if we can start with page two please you can see that you or email laura johnson uh on the 17th of may 2017 foot of the
00:57:43 uh on the 17th of may 2017 foot of the page
00:57:43 page subject chair of scrutiny dear laura just a quick one councillor cds said yesterday the councillor makeover i think that should be makava was being very negative about the tmo at some conservative party meeting the
00:57:55 some conservative party meeting the other night this seemed to stem from something at scrutiny he was worried about leaseholder doors and said we were not doing something it was all a bit vague but a bit of general chatter about how we are not performing in this area speaking to barbara she seemed as
00:58:07 speaking to barbara she seemed as confused about what the issue is would you what would you recommend do nothing contact him and see if he wants to talk with through or ask to meet him together to discuss it i know he does not see you but your advice and views welcome
00:58:18 welcome and then if we go to the foot of page one
00:58:22 one over to two
00:58:25 we can see laura johnson responds to you very foot of one and if we scroll to two this is on the 18th of may robert this comes from scrutiny committee in the paper that we tabled on trellic fire
00:58:36 trellic fire they completely failed to ask any questions about trellic and instead focused on what councillor pascal knew about what is the issue we'd reported on regularly for the previous two years which was
00:58:47 two years which was was leak was leaseholder doors and the project the tmo had ran very successfully on getting leaseholders to change their doors councillor mackover instead of saying to councillor p can we please get back to the paper we've tabled on trellic
00:58:58 the paper we've tabled on trellic then joined in asking janice and barbara questions about leaseholder doors they answered honestly and said no not all doors will comply we have a rolling program of compliance and regular checks this then horrified
00:59:09 and regular checks this then horrified them both and they asked for a report to be brought back on this issue to a subsequent scrutiny committee the questioning only stopped when i reminded them that the paper was on trellic and janice had come to answer questions on that rather than leaseholder doors
00:59:25 so in short councillor makover knows nothing about this issue councillor pascal
00:59:29 pascal only knows what he can recollect from two years ago both are of the view that the council should pay to replace leaseholder doors regardless of whether we should be reimbursed as this would be safer for the block in case of fire we've been through this before
00:59:40 before i refuse to open this up again as a subject for councillor pascal to dwell on
00:59:44 on we therefore just need to get your team to do an update on leaseholder doors and perhaps door closers as part of the annual report you due to scrutiny in september on tma performance i wouldn't contact councillor pascal or
00:59:55 i wouldn't contact councillor pascal or mac over on this it's a non-issue they're trying to turn into something because we've reported on it before i think we should take back an update on health and safety to the september meeting
01:00:05 meeting and then there's something about councillor taylor smith at the bottom um now from what laura johnson says there which i've read at length to you i'm afraid um
01:00:17 i'm afraid um do you you see that the councillors or these councillors at least were horrified that not all doors would comply yes i think they're talking about the leasehold doors as far as i can remember
01:00:28 leasehold doors as far as i can remember yes it doesn't matter at least hold the doors would not comply yes horrified well i mean i think that was the issue is councilman mark over had been a member of scrutiny committee before he became chair
01:00:40 before he became chair and we had reported on the the whole program of door uh replacements uh which i think it replaced the 1100 doors and then he had been there throughout the whole process as we tried to resolve
01:00:52 the whole process as we tried to resolve this issue with leaseholder doors in terms of whose control
01:00:56 control and he'd been there as he'd seen that the council in the fire brigade had worked up to the dclg so so again this is laura's view that you know quite confused about how
01:01:07 know quite confused about how counselor makover seemed to have forgotten all about that and i you know the reason i brought it up because my counselor who was on the board
01:01:15 board raising i was just like slightly confused i see did you agree with laura johnson that the leaseholder doors and door closer questions were a non-issue i mean i i think we all understood that
01:01:28 i mean i i think we all understood that the way the lease was designed it made it incredibly difficult for the landlord to actually replace the doors if the leaseholder didn't comply with us
01:01:37 with us and that had taken a long time to get to that stage and also in the end the council it was agreed by dclg would have to use its legislation to take action against any leaseholder
01:01:50 to take action against any leaseholder under its uh its position [Music]
01:01:54 [Music] did you think yourself that the issues were best left to be dealt with in a report to scrutiny the following september so five months later
01:02:04 later i took the this is this is the council's meeting not mine i take the advice of the
01:02:09 the the office right now let's go to page one your response uh you say at the top there this same day 18th of may 2017. hi laura on review we came to the same conclusion after our meeting and i've
01:02:21 conclusion after our meeting and i've asked barbara and janice to pick this up in our formal reports i agree with the rest
01:02:27 and the effect of this do you agree with me
01:02:30 me is that a legitimate concern raised by a councillor is dismissed essentially as a non-issue by both
01:02:37 by both your organization and rbkc you know i think i've i've answered that it's been talking about replacing uh leaseholders doors it was a legal issue that had been
01:02:48 legal issue that had been gone over and over and over so your your view at the time was that this was an illegitimate concern right you say that well what would you say was it relevant was it a relevant
01:03:00 say was it relevant was it a relevant concern
01:03:01 concern or was it an irrelevant concern i can't remember the context of the meeting i wasn't at the meeting i was told secondhand the issues i'd raised it so i could get advice from laura about whether i should
01:03:13 advice from laura about whether i should go back to the counsellor so it's one of those ones not here say but he said they said i was just trying to get to the bottom of what the issue was and then
01:03:23 and then what laura has come back has given me a sort of clearer picture in her advice well you see i agree with the rest
01:03:31 the rest she says it's a non-issue you agreed did you that
01:03:35 you that the question of non-uh the question of self-closures on at least held the doors was a non-issue no i think the known issue was counsellor's position at the meeting not remembering what he'd been told it
01:03:48 not remembering what he'd been told it doesn't make it irrelevant though does it
01:03:50 it makes it it makes me it may mean that his horror was relived and had been overtaken by events but it doesn't mean does it or does it
01:04:01 doesn't mean does it or does it that the concern is nonetheless legitimate
01:04:11 the reason i raised it with laura because was it something i should take forward
01:04:15 forward i think her view is the kind of should have it wasn't his horror it was mother i think the horror was that he couldn't remember this whole process it went through
01:04:23 through which is very public a very high profile at scrutiny about the issue of leaseholder doors i don't think anyone was dismissing it i think it was more about how someone who had forgotten all that
01:04:34 how someone who had forgotten all that time what had been reported to them on
01:04:38 scrutiny
01:04:42 do you remember whether the scrutiny committee was made aware of the uh the then outstanding and indeed
01:04:52 about to expire deficiency notice in respect
01:04:57 respect of grenfell tower and in particular the self-closers i can't recall sorry no
01:05:05 so the date of this email your email is actually the very date on which that deficiency notice expired but and it's on the same topic did you put the two together
01:05:16 put the two together i may not over own the day no let's look at a document the day before 17th of may 2017 tmo double zero eight
01:05:27 17th of may 2017 tmo double zero eight nine four
01:05:28 nine four three three seven
01:05:42 this is the minute of the executive team meeting of that day and you are present as is barbara matthews if we can go down please to page two
01:05:54 2.6 fire at trellic rb noted that councillor makover has been disparaging about the tmo over fire doors rb has spoken to laura about this as rbkc are clear
01:06:05 rbkc are clear that they do not want us inspecting flat front doors councillor makover is saying that we should be constantly reviewing the fire doors
01:06:13 doors bm noted we have carl carrying out fras and the lfb conducting audits and they will pick up any doors not compliant rb asked if janice could write a briefing note on what we did on the programme
01:06:24 programme what was agreed with rbkc completed and what we do now it was agreed that janus would include this update in the annual health and safety report which will go to board in july
01:06:33 july and to laura after that we've been informed that councillor blakeman has been disparaging about the tmo in public forums
01:06:43 now from this note we have a little bit more clarity here it looks is this right that both laura johnson
01:06:51 johnson and rbkc more generally were clear that they did not want the tmo to inspect inspect flat front doors to make sure they have closers it looks like that yes yes what did you
01:07:02 it looks like that yes yes what did you think the tmo should do regarding the inspection of flat front doors go along with rbkc and do nothing or something else
01:07:17 i think as if we knew they weren't working they should be fixed i think that was our position yes councillor mackover is recorded here as having said that the tmo should be uh constantly reviewing
01:07:30 uh constantly reviewing the fire doors and that's what the minute says it's right isn't it that that is what lfb had made clear since october 2015 uh when the tower deficiency notice was
01:07:41 uh when the tower deficiency notice was issued
01:07:42 issued that's right isn't it yeah i'm leaving aside the word constantly and that a regular program of inspection was discussed in early 2016 after the the bi-monthly meeting with um with the
01:07:55 the bi-monthly meeting with um with the lfb on the fifth of that month yep yes
01:08:00 in reality is it right that the tma was placing its faith in almost entirely in carl stokes as fras save where anything was picked up by an lfb audit yes
01:08:13 notwithstanding the fact that the tmo had clearly been getting it wrong in the lfb's eyes since october 2015 resulting in deficiency notices on this very topic
01:08:24 very topic door closers yes and notwithstanding the fact that the lfb had serious reservations about carl stokes as a fire risk assessor
01:08:34 well they did maybe that you didn't take it seriously but they did as a fact did you disagree that they did we can look at some documents i think they raised concerns and they were being
01:08:45 they raised concerns and they were being addressed
01:08:46 addressed yes do you know whether the work that the lfb had required to be done in their deficiency notice of 17th november 2016 for grenfell tower
01:08:57 november 2016 for grenfell tower done uh by the time of the fire on the 14th of june 2017 or not do you know can't recall i think
01:09:08 i'm not sure if there was four that were partially completed and still to be fixed
01:09:16 but i can't recall that sorry right
01:09:22 now uh mr chairman i'm afraid it's becoming great but i'm now about to switch to a completely different topic altogether and i'm very happy to spend 10 minutes starting it
01:09:33 starting it uh before we break well is that going to take you
01:09:36 take you a reasonable distance uh it may it may do all right well why did you carry on yes
01:09:40 yes thank you i want to examine with you mr black now the question of complaints and the approach to residents um can we start please with iws401462
01:09:53 can we start please with iws401462 please
01:09:59 this is the first page of a long document
01:10:04 document which is maria marmoli's investigation report
01:10:08 report into long-standing complaints of the tma or about the tmo that's its title uh a dated the 10th of april 2009. now on day 149
01:10:21 now on day 149 last wednesday last week you told us that you'd heard of the mammalia report but you hadn't seen it that's a day 149 at page 18.
01:10:32 that's a day 149 at page 18. i know about the report i couldn't remember if i'd seen it i in in terms of so if i've seen it if you can show me evidence and obviously i would have seen it yeah i was very aware of it in terms of when
01:10:43 i was very aware of it in terms of when i joined the company yes well let's just take it slowly now you you
01:10:47 you you you joined the tma at some point in may 2009 yeah
01:10:51 2009 yeah yes so this was after the this document had been created itself evidently as a matter of chronology yeah and when you joined the tma
01:10:59 tma were you given a handover no were you given a file of documents to read into
01:11:07 read into so that you would understand your immediate tasks there would have been some in in terms of i went from interview in march
01:11:18 in march april and there was a chief exec in place who agreed that i would start two weeks before she left she left
01:11:29 two weeks before she left she left without that handover so i came in and then had to work my way through working with what staff i had about what the issue
01:11:37 the issue so in a sense i knew through my interview because they'd raised specific things
01:11:43 things which we had to they asked all the candidates to to how would you do it so obviously i was aware there's there was issues i can't
01:11:55 there was issues i can't remember whether i was given this whole report
01:11:59 report at the moment that's the main thing no i understand that i mean did nobody put this on your desk and say mr black or robert depending on who they were you might like to read this before you start
01:12:09 you start it was an rbkc report i don't know if my staff had it uh right let's go to let's look at some documents to see if we can pin this down tmo double zero eight nine four four
01:12:21 tmo double zero eight nine four four eight please
01:12:28 this is an email of the 7th of september 2009
01:12:32 2009 from laura johnson to you and keith holloway
01:12:37 holloway forwarding an adjudication report and she says robert and keith please find attached a draft adjudication report from john butler this will inform our meeting on thursday following comments from this meeting
01:12:48 following comments from this meeting john will revise the report which will be the final version and one published for tenants and residents to see do you remember whether you'd seen the mamoli april report by that time i
01:13:02 april report by that time i i can't recall honestly uh the clearly there was a draft adjudication report attached uh let's look at that document tmo double zero eight eight eight seven one one
01:13:22 this is uh the adjudication report dated the 22nd of september 2009. uh let's just try to piece this together was this the final version of the draft which laura johnson had sent
01:13:34 the draft which laura johnson had sent you
01:13:35 you at the fortnight before i would think so right but if we go to paragraph 2.1 please on page one
01:13:46 please on page one sorry 1.2 paragraph 1.2 on page one
01:13:52 sorry page two
01:13:58 page two please um
01:14:04 uh no right so something's gone wrong um we need to look at page two of tmo double zero eight eight eight seven one one
01:14:15 eight eight seven one one yes can we look at page two of that document
01:14:20 yes thank you now looking at paragraph one point two it says the cut the council appointed maria mamoli a solicitor to act as adjudicator and manage the investigation an investigator was appointed
01:14:31 investigator was appointed who interviewed residents and collected evidence from staff and files all tma residents were invited to participate and focus groups were held in addition to receiving individual submissions
01:14:42 submissions then if you look down lower down the page could be scroll down to 1.5 please this adjudication report therefore follows the recommendation in investigating and adjudicating as
01:14:53 in investigating and adjudicating as appropriate on every specific complaint now when you saw this document and first i should ask you did you see this document in its final form or did you only ever see the draft i
01:15:04 or did you only ever see the draft i can't remember right do you remember seeing and noting that ms mamoli had been appointed by rbkc to investigate complaints by residents
01:15:17 to investigate complaints by residents yes yes
01:15:18 yes yes and this this report the adjudication report
01:15:21 report or the butler report if you like implemented one of the recommendations from the mamoli report yes yes and before meeting with laura johnson to review the butler report did you ask to see
01:15:32 you ask to see a copy of the mammalia report i can't recall i can't remember did you not need to read the memory report in order to understand the context of the butler adjudication report
01:15:43 i mean my whole point about this is rbkc's report and i got the impression they didn't weren't particularly that keen or impressed with it and so therefore actually what i was been getting i think
01:15:55 actually what i was been getting i think john butler was someone that worked with rbkc who then took this on board to produce this report
01:16:01 report i'm really just seeing if we can piece together
01:16:05 first of all whether you saw the mammalia report and i'm suggesting to you that you must have seen it by this time
01:16:10 time in order to understand at least the draft butler adjudication report and that's where i'm struggling to understand about whether i did or whether i just saw because again it was rbkc's report they might not want to give it to me and then
01:16:22 might not want to give it to me and then they brought in john buckland so again it's so long ago apologies trying to remember the sequence of events
01:16:28 events right right if we go back to the the mammalia report and i'll just do this reference before the break
01:16:35 the break iws four zero is one four six two can we look at page three please
01:16:44 the the executive summary appears here the first paragraph says there are a number of tenants leaseholders and freeholders within the borough of kensington and chelsea who feel aggrieved
01:16:55 feel aggrieved that their problems have not been resolved by the tmo despite several years of
01:16:59 years of complaining and then in the third paragraph it says the resident's main concerns are around cyclical repairs major works management charges service charges customer care property and ethics communications
01:17:10 property and ethics communications performance monitoring trust and confidence and then the next paragraph but one down says with the changes made to the constitution and the election of a new board the tmo
01:17:22 and the election of a new board the tmo now needs to tackle not only the governance but the real operational issues around the services it provides to meet the demands of the residents within the borough to show true leadership to lead by example by being mature
01:17:33 to lead by example by being mature dealing with strategic issues of the tmo guiding its direction of travel with policy delegated to its committees for operational and day-to-day management issues to be effectively delegated
01:17:43 delegated to officers of the organization the new board needs to win the hearts and minds of those disgruntled residents who have had grievances going back several years the board must understand its constitutional and legal role
01:17:54 constitutional and legal role and to take collective responsibility to spearhead the tna in its improvement plan now in summary you can see just from that page that
01:18:05 you can see just from that page that this report made serious criticisms of the tmo
01:18:08 the tmo about the relationship between it and its tenants yes if you it's mostly around leaseholders and some tenants
01:18:20 tenants it says uh higher amongst leaseholders and then tenants it doesn't give a percentage
01:18:30 you've identified something in a paragraph i didn't read to you in the second paragraph this was the message i got when i joined is that because of a lot of these issues
01:18:41 that because of a lot of these issues around cyclical repairs major works and service charts there was a high level of uh leaseholders who were unhappy with the way services were being managed
01:18:53 way services were being managed did you understand that the mammalia report was only or or principally communicating leaseholders concerns and not residents generally no i think it was a general thing that she identified a
01:19:05 a general thing that she identified a higher than a normal indeed um i repeat my my point do you remember reading what i've just read to you i
01:19:16 reading what i've just read to you i it's so long ago right do you remember there being an independent report that made serious criticisms along these lines about the relationship between the tmo and its
01:19:26 and its residents yes yes and the governance of the tmo
01:19:30 the tmo yes yes yes and there were recommendations you remember at least in outline the fact that there were recommendations made to improve the position there were
01:19:42 made to improve the position there were some recommendations yes i can't i can't remember them all uh in the sense they were yeah yes well we'll come back to those after the break if we may mr chairman is this a convenient moment
01:19:53 a convenient moment yes i think it is thank you we'll have a short break now then mr black please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence over the break and we'll come back at 25 to 12. okay thank you
01:20:12 thank you 25 to 12 please
01:36:43 would you ask mr black to come back in please okay
01:37:00 all right mr black ready to carry on yes yes thank you can we go back then to
01:37:08 tm00888711 please the final adjudication report we looked at earlier
01:37:17 and as you can see from the first page there
01:37:20 there it was produced on the 22nd of september 2009 uh
01:37:27 2009 uh ironically this very same day as the fire safety management report produced by salvas if we go to page five please paragraph four
01:37:42 uh we can see that he sets out there the general issues and recommendations and under paragraph 4.2 at the foot of the page
01:37:49 the page he says this governance customer service staff attitudes and poor repair service are recurring themes throughout the investigation these have already been identified in the improvement plan as the core areas for improvement
01:38:01 as the core areas for improvement it cannot be overemphasized how achieving successful change in these areas
01:38:04 areas will determine the perception of the residents and restore their trust and confidence in the tmo and the council as landlord and if we go to page six and look at paragraph 4.4
01:38:15 look at paragraph 4.4 a little bit lower down although the lack of communication has been raised the perception of communication as a problem is normally linked to the level of trust or dissatisfaction with the service
01:38:26 with the service and relationship with the organization the investigation has not identified any serious failures in formal communication other than that highlighted in the surveyor's recommendations in paragraph 4.5
01:38:37 4.5 the issue is more that the tmo needs to ensure that its communications are seen by residents as presenting a true picture of the reality of the experience they receive glossy brochures and newsletters do not
01:38:48 glossy brochures and newsletters do not go down well when people perceive a poor service exclamation mark did you discuss these recommendations at the meeting with laura johnson and
01:39:00 at the meeting with laura johnson and keith holloway i imagine we did what did you did you well did you
01:39:05 did you do anything about them did you act on them yes of course i did now if we go to pending yeah i mean carry on no no do do please say what you
01:39:16 carry on no no do do please say what you you wanted to tell us no i'll let you carry on that's right and if we go to um tm0089426 this is appendix two to the butler
01:39:27 this is appendix two to the butler adjudication report and it's uh a a a a record of rbkc and tmo's responses to the mammalia report were you involved
01:39:39 to the mammalia report were you involved in the preparation of these responses i would have uh i i can't remember who the keith who i'd brought in as a consultant to help me when i sort of
01:39:50 me when i sort of was appointed uh whether he oversaw that right do you remember whether these were discussed in your meeting with laura johnson and keith holloway about the
01:40:01 johnson and keith holloway about the report
01:40:01 report that we saw referred to in the email exchange i imagine i would have right let's go to page two in this document
01:40:09 document where you can see the table and uh on page two the first recommendation relates to customer care pr communication trading and development
01:40:22 communication trading and development and it says for there to be a process of mediation straight conciliation to build relationships with the aggrieved residents and the tmo relationships between certain fractions of residents and the tmo have broken
01:40:33 of residents and the tmo have broken down irretrievably only an independent process can intervene to try and improve relations council response the client role is evolving with an improvement plan process that present
01:40:45 improvement plan process that present the focus of clienting activity future clienting will be based on monitoring and influencing the tma's business plan with increased attention on assessment of outcomes the approach to resident
01:40:56 of outcomes the approach to resident consultation is under review and then adjudicated comment this was an objective of the adjudication it processes itself however the rebuilding of relationships will be principally
01:41:08 of relationships will be principally determined by the tma improving service performance and being seen as professional and competent
01:41:13 competent particularly by leaseholders so you see that now
01:41:23 the um the approach to resident consultation is under review is what is said in the council response is it right that in fact no such process was established
01:41:36 i well i wouldn't say that in terms of does that mean
01:41:47 does that mean so we had an improvement plan because again i'm just trying to remember the sequence of events we got a breach notice from the council before which which then i had to do an
01:42:00 before which which then i had to do an improvement plan to to address the breach notice which i think was in september when it disappeared so it went through my board and we spent a lot of time uh focusing
01:42:13 and we spent a lot of time uh focusing on the relationships with the the certainly around the leaseholders because there's so many issues in terms of works and capital works which were still
01:42:26 capital works which were still causing concern and an example might be impart gardens which uh i think was over 400 leaseholders sort of thing and work had started through emergency work because
01:42:37 through emergency work because some chimney stacks were falling down i think that was 1996 and following on from that major works were carried out across all the blocks so the contract wasn't blocked by block
01:42:48 so the contract wasn't blocked by block but
01:42:49 but the whole thing which made it incredibly complicated we ever agreed it so when i arrived the work had completed in 2008
01:42:56 in 2008 snagin had taken part in 2009 but the leaseholders who had actually paid a proportion of work weren't going to get the final bills to 2012.
01:43:07 2012. so there was that was one aspect of i think the complaint about around the capital works and people not happy about how long it think took things to get resolved sort of thing
01:43:18 things to get resolved sort of thing and it was actually building relationship with those a range of people across the business looking at looking at recommendation five on page three
01:43:30 uh where the council's tmo's response was the recent publication of a five-year
01:43:35 five-year capital works program to residents is that is is that what you've just described
01:43:40 described no i think that's a different this is here where even this was before the team of freedom in 2012 we were trying to from an asset
01:43:52 we were trying to from an asset management side just published sort of indicative information so leaseholders uh would know if there was work coming up and i think one of the leaseholders issues
01:44:02 issues if you just do work on a year by year basis they can't plan in terms of
01:44:08 of uh how they're going to pay for that work because we didn't have sinking funds in general so i think this was our first stab at trying to through asset management identify works that we
01:44:19 asset management identify works that we might be able to do or might be seeking to do over the next five years to give leaseholders an indication of actually work coming up so they can say well we might be doing work on their properties in three years
01:44:30 work on their properties in three years time
01:44:30 time right so it was an early approach to trying to get a business plan type approach but it was it was very sort of uh early days stuff right you say it was very early days what else was done
01:44:41 very early days what else was done to respond or by way of response to this criticism or recommendation item five a more proactive approach well i think
01:44:52 i think we had a home ownership team it was called a homeownership team rather than a leasehold team because we had not just leaseholders but some freeholders as well and what the the feedback from those those
01:45:05 the feedback from those those sort of leaseholders they wanted a more specific service from them so we had a tenanted services for tenants and we had a homeownership service for leaseholders and the whole and that was set up by
01:45:16 and the whole and that was set up by daniel woods and the whole idea of that was actually to for him and his team to be more proactive
01:45:22 proactive in engaging with our leaseholders understanding uh works in course and in a sense there is also a backlog of works here which i mentioned i think in statement
01:45:34 which i mentioned i think in statement that
01:45:36 there were some outstanding contracts still from i think about 1990 which hadn't been signed off so the process is you do you do work the leaseholder would pay some estimated course the work would finish
01:45:48 course the work would finish you'd have discussions and try to get the final bill and that would be then sort of signed off by the council but what inherited was quite a lot of leasehold work that hadn't been signed off so lisa's hadn't had their final
01:46:00 off so lisa's hadn't had their final account
01:46:02 account so partly dan and his team were working through that so that we could actually identify how we could close down those contracts and my position on that was a lot of those course you wouldn't be able to
01:46:14 those course you wouldn't be able to identify
01:46:15 identify going back to 1990 so you had to just take a position and present it to rbkc that actually due to the time you have to sort of think about how much work do we write
01:46:27 think about how much work do we write off in terms of the course so that was a process that was going along for a number of years which we eventually cleared that backlog and that was a major source of uh irritation uh by these soldiers and then we were
01:46:38 uh by these soldiers and then we were working towards in terms of better engagement so dan set up we had a leasehold consultation group as we had with tenants who'd won so it was
01:46:46 so it was trying to get people on board to build that trust uh and and recognize that in the sense a lot of this happened before i came and actually what i was dealing with was
01:46:57 actually what i was dealing with was a backlog in a history which i was seeking over time to work through and in reality
01:47:03 reality is it takes a while to do there's no magic
01:47:07 magic wand to to clear these issues but we did in the end clear them and got them all signed off by the council item six tma to be alive to the varying
01:47:20 item six tma to be alive to the varying lifestyles and diversity of their residents and must have respect for their privacy wherever possible visits to property should be kept to a minimum and always arranged
01:47:28 arranged at a mutually convenient time and the response here the tmo has devised an equality and diversity action plan and the core outcome is to ensure this is embedded in all aspects of service
01:47:39 is embedded in all aspects of service improvement plans only preparing for inspection did that plan include the active identification of those with mental or physical
01:47:50 with mental or physical disabilities or disadvantages i'm trying to think it here uh what was the the issue i mean i i i think it would have
01:48:02 i mean i think this is also about making sure that you're you're arranging visits that you're following up on time uh and it should be convenient
01:48:12 uh can we go back to recommendation nine then please or forward to it i should say on page four the council and tma to re-examine their relationship with each other to ensure openness
01:48:23 with each other to ensure openness transparency and trust mutually exist between the two organizations the adjudication manager experienced them and us culture which may have existed historically but needs to be addressed for the benefit of both organizations
01:48:34 for the benefit of both organizations and then the response changes at executive level in rbkc and the tmo have resolved this issue how was that resolved was that was that simply you and laura johnson coming in
01:48:45 simply you and laura johnson coming in and working closely together no where it was is that i hope there's trying to understand the background to this again is about actually engaging
01:48:56 this again is about actually engaging with a whole range of people in our bkc so it wouldn't just be laura johnston and myself and this was about engaging through the different areas of housing supported housing
01:49:07 housing asset management all those sort of bits and pieces where so the council would know what's going on so in terms of my team my executive team my senior management team engaging with our bkc there's also in
01:49:20 engaging with our bkc there's also in terms of
01:49:20 terms of you know engaging with our local counselors because in fact they have quite a lot of counsellors in those days in the borough so in terms of actually knowing who the table was or who was the lead person if they had an issue or
01:49:31 lead person if they had an issue or something
01:49:32 something so that's the way i see this it wasn't just one person it wasn't just laura it was that sort of across the board well it doesn't say that it changes at executive level in our bkc and the tmo have resolved
01:49:44 in our bkc and the tmo have resolved this issue so other than you and laura johnson
01:49:46 johnson who what were the other changes well there'd been the other executive directors that eventually sort of came in
01:49:51 in in terms of sasha jevons yvonne birch uh lynette pemberton would have been there at that time so in terms of about that team engaging where appropriate with the right people in our bkc
01:50:03 with the right people in our bkc so i'm sorry it's maybe my fault for not being
01:50:06 being clear enough to tease out the very point but is the changes are personnel change in other words changes of people not changes in roles is that right
01:50:16 right some of the rules check so in the terms of
01:50:19 of we didn't have the exact same structure when when i joined and by this time that we'd actually created different pools so with the company secretary he could engage with with rbkc sasha sort of covered the
01:50:32 with rbkc sasha sort of covered the operational requirements uh you've all done and did the other software in policy so it was about that addressing from what i could see was the perception that the senior people at the
01:50:43 perception that the senior people at the timo
01:50:44 timo weren't engaging previously with rbkc which i didn't quite understand what steps were taken to ensure that uh at the very least you and laura johnson
01:50:57 at the very least you and laura johnson remained at arm's length so the proper and rigorous scrutiny by rbkc them of the tmo you was not compromised well they had their own client laura had
01:51:09 well they had their own client laura had so laura was executive director of housing with a range of duties and she had a client team whose role it was to manage the team or in terms of the
01:51:20 manage the team or in terms of the client side now can we go to tm01003747 i want to ask you about monitoring of complaints and resident engagement
01:51:32 complaints and resident engagement this document is a report well this is this is actually the first page in the board pack for the meeting of the tma board of the 28th of july
01:51:43 of the tma board of the 28th of july 2011. and in it at page one two three we can see uh a report by yvonne burch who was then head of strategy and engagement
01:51:54 engagement do you see that yeah item eight i uh and if you go to page 129 you'll see her name at the bottom
01:52:07 there it is yvonne birch and if you go back to page one two three and scroll down through the pages you can see what she produced if you just scroll to one two four
01:52:21 and one two five
01:52:25 the topics covered are repairs and maintenance responsive repairs capital works gas safety voids lettings customer service center etc it's a performance report was this performance report the main
01:52:36 performance report the main report to the board at that time about the way in which performance on resident engagement would be monitored well it might have been right
01:52:48 well it might have been right sorry just i mean if you go to let's go to eight
01:52:52 to eight on page one two eight which is about complaints she says as of april complaints received by the tmo and are logged and processed through the edrms
01:53:04 through the edrms system a below target performance of 76.8
01:53:07 76.8 for the first quarter can in part be attributed to the work that's taken place in adapting the edrms system to allow the complaints process to follow
01:53:17 to follow to go through go to page 129. process to follow through smoothly at each stage the complaints management has been working closely with ict and tuning the system etc uh and then
01:53:29 and tuning the system etc uh and then correspondence has dealt with that this looks like um the report to the board at that stage on resident engagement and complaints yeah
01:53:38 yeah yes then if we go to page 134 in the same document run you can see there uh the kpi report first quarter april to june 2011
01:53:49 first quarter april to june 2011 neighborhood management and if you look at resident engage or involvement at the foot of that table you see that yeah the dark blue line
01:54:01 uh it um is a kpi for complaints answered
01:54:06 answered on target for stage one and two you see that uh and uh if you go to the next
01:54:17 uh if you go to the next page um this is complaints and correspondence
01:54:25 uh you've got complaints and the name correspondence the complaint stage one and two
01:54:30 and two uh stage one complaints answered percentage answered in target or on target and then stage two complaints percentage answered in target you see those yeah and um
01:54:45 those are for q2 q3 and q4 of the 2011 10 11 year and then 2011 to 2012 q1
01:54:57 and then 2011 to 2012 q1 and then year to date status in both cases is red yes yes do you agree that only virtu yvonne burch's report here at least in 2010 to 11
01:55:08 2010 to 11 the targets for responding to complaints in time were being missed yes and also that there was a low satisfac or very low satisfaction with complaints but 25 as you can see
01:55:22 but 25 as you can see um do you know why complaints weren't being resolved on time or in time with with such low satisfaction figures a year on after the memorial report uh not specifically i mean did this not
01:55:35 uh not specifically i mean did this not alert you this these statistics to the fact that the butler recommendations had either not been
01:55:40 been been implemented or if they had were not working well well i think it's a snapshot i mean it wasn't always like this so sometimes complaints uh take longer
01:55:51 so sometimes complaints uh take longer there must be reasons behind it but in giving that answer have you done a comparative exercise to satisfy yourself that these statistics here were a one-off
01:56:02 these statistics here were a one-off well not individually no no that's why the complaints team uh well um you see you say you think it's a snapshot and it clearly is a snapshot but but are you saying that the reds were atypical
01:56:15 that the reds were atypical at this time i don't think they were i mean i think there was ebbs and flows and i think behind that is trying to understand what's the issues we we had trained staff staff knew the time scales for responding to complaints
01:56:27 responding to complaints and if they were late we had to address that and it sounds like the complaints team with which i had three people worked with staff striving to make sure we get our responses in time yes but i mean 71 76.1
01:56:40 time yes but i mean 71 76.1 of complaints answered on targets just over three quarters yeah uh i i i is is well done would you did that not alert you to the fact that there was something not quite right working in the complaints team
01:56:51 right working in the complaints team such that the butler recommendations have not been fully or properly i think i think organizations go through bits where it's not working and it's the the
01:57:02 the so it's never going to be perfect i mean own compliance and here i mean you're showing me a snapshot which actually is a you know i'm not trying to cross a gloss over it
01:57:12 over it and it's about what's the work behind the scenes working with the team uh complaints team behind the scene to work with my staff to ensure they're meeting their target it's a it's a constant
01:57:23 constant challenge do you remember in the early years after the butler report occasions on which you were brought up short by snapshots such as this and and told your staff to investigate why
01:57:35 and told your staff to investigate why uh results like this were being achieved yeah i mean in the sands you have a number of years of performance through this if you look at them there's probably ups and downs
01:57:46 probably ups and downs and if people weren't performing this staff were it was been addressed either through the complaints team with the individuals or with their managers that was a constant process to make sure to encourage people and if
01:57:58 to make sure to encourage people and if if you're going to be late let us know so we can let the resident know because sometimes you may be waiting for information so what was the reason why these were so poor
01:58:07 poor you're asking 2011 i don't know the specific you're providing me with a performance table which is fine but i don't know the data behind that
01:58:19 now we've seen i think no record that kpis on
01:58:23 kpis on satisfaction about complaints were reported to the board after this occasion do you know why that is well they would have been reported to the board
01:58:31 the board in terms of complaints were included in all the quarterly performance reports through the board they were also reported because the board also had an operation committee which sat below the
01:58:42 operation committee which sat below the board
01:58:43 board where they would look at some of the detail here as well i don't know why you haven't been able to see that uh well i think it's satis i i i it's my fault perhaps the satisfaction with handling
01:58:55 satisfaction with handling figures were not uh reported on i can't i don't know if that changed sorry right now um can i then ask you some questions about some specific complaints uh you
01:59:09 told us at the very start of your evidence that paragraph 167 of your statement
01:59:14 statement uh was was incorrect
01:59:18 uh if we just go to paragraph 167 the tmo five zeros eight eight eight thirty one
01:59:30 thirty one 167 in answer to the question raised i do not recall having any direct personal interaction with any grenfell residents groups or forums in relation to any complaints they may have had
01:59:39 had and i'm not aware of any having been made in relation to fire safety at grenfell tower or elsewhere any received would have been passed uh on to the relevant manager but i am confident i did not receive any
01:59:51 but i am confident i did not receive any and you as i say you corrected that when you gave when you came into the witness box
01:59:56 box and began to give your evidence on day 149 at page five um now i just want to look at one or two complaints that you you did receive uh
02:00:08 you did receive uh we've already seen some about the aov from the grenfell tower leaseholders association we don't need to get back to those
02:00:14 those councillor blakeman also raised a number of complaints about fire safety directly with you didn't she uh as i recall yes yes tmo one triple zero one eight five nine is an email
02:00:27 five nine is an email of the 18th of december 2012 from councillor blakeman to janice ray copied to you you see that and it's about ocs parking
02:00:39 you see that and it's about ocs parking that
02:00:39 that obstructs emergency access to grenfell tower
02:00:43 tower so that's one example and there's another one at tm00840010
02:00:53 eight tm0084 double zero one zero page three in that email run where you will see an email to you directly
02:01:02 directly from councillor blakeman of the 18th of february 2013 where she says in the subject is the fire safety at lancaster west dear mr black putting to one side the
02:01:13 dear mr black putting to one side the tendentious abuse in mr o'connor's email he does raise some serious points and i very much hope that a full and comprehensive report can be provided on the fire safety situation at grenfell tower once the fire brigade's emergency
02:01:24 tower once the fire brigade's emergency test exercise has been completed perhaps we can have this as a standing item on the emb agenda so there's a there's one coming to you
02:01:33 to you do you remember the context of that uh not
02:01:40 the context was that the uh the carl stokes of fra for grenfell tower dated the 20th of november 2012 had been provided to the gtla
02:01:52 had been provided to the gtla and they had reacted to it and mr o'connor had raised some concerns about it do you remember that i i'm recalling it now right
02:02:00 right and then a later example later in in the time
02:02:04 time in december 2015 rbk3052627
02:02:18 in december 2015 rbk3052627 this is 10th of december 2015. blatant array copied to you as well as complaints grenfell tower floor numbers9
02:02:29 floor numbers9 uh dear ms ray please see attached photograph i'm afraid short term sticking plaster solutions like this to serious problems do not work given the concer concerns expressed by the fire brigade following the fire at our
02:02:40 the fire at our tower can be pleasing sure that the new floor numbering at grenfell tower is done properly clearly and permanently at every floor not in this temporary manner i'm keeping this complaint at stage one for the moment
02:02:51 for the moment but a view of the seriousness of this matter may have to refer to stage two if there's no swift and satisfactory response
02:02:56 response this just for your benefit was in the context of temporary uh fire action notices stuck on the walls and by the lifts at grenfell tower which fell off um and this was the basis of the
02:03:07 um and this was the basis of the complaint there that she said you accept i think she brought that complaint to your attention there yes and then um tmo double zero eight four six eight seven six
02:03:18 seven six page two last email on the page
02:03:23 uh councillor blatant again 20th of march
02:03:27 march to uh
02:03:30 you well to complain it's copied to you and peter madison dear complaints and if we go over the page to page three you can see that
02:03:41 three you can see that there is a request by her for a full audit by the lfb of the installation of the gas pipes and then a complaint about that um she says uh they fear do you see the
02:03:53 she says uh they fear do you see the penultimate paragraph they fear that the way these pipes have been installed without being boxed in or provided with other protection and with the valves exposed in the stairwell is very dangerous see attached photographs they assert that because of
02:04:04 photographs they assert that because of the amount of the antisocial behavior in the stairwell sooner or later someone will try and undo the valves furthermore they believe that in the event of a fire in the tower it ignited the pipes will cause an explosion
02:04:15 cause an explosion and prevent people exiting the building and then if we go up to page one we can see
02:04:23 an email of the 22nd of march 2017 two days later
02:04:28 to uh you directly
02:04:34 uh from laura johnson sorry from judith blakeman to laura johnson and you do you see that
02:04:38 see that yeah about a third of the way down your screen
02:04:41 screen and the title is uh independent health and safety inspector for grenfell please find below a request from the grenfell leaseholders association for funding either from the council or from the tmo
02:04:52 the tmo to pay for an independent health and safety advisor to look into matters outlined by mr awa daru he was gtla councillor judith blakeman you see that yes um now i've shown you all of these in a row
02:05:06 i've shown you all of these in a row do you accept as a general matter that over the years certainly from 2013 through to 2017 council blakeman made you aware on a number of occasions about complaints
02:05:17 number of occasions about complaints about fire safety relating to grenfell tower
02:05:20 tower yeah yes
02:05:23 you said in your statement of paragraph 167 and i didn't understand that you resolved from that that you would pass on complaints to the relevant manager did you yourself take an active interest
02:05:34 did you yourself take an active interest in the resolution of these complaints to which uh miss blake councillor blatant had drawn your attention well you usually i would see
02:05:43 would see a response so if it's health and safety i'd send it to janus or barbara
02:05:50 did any of these concerns or all of these concerns cumulatively cause you to question whether
02:05:56 whether fire safety was being managed properly at grenfell tower no i think there's different subject headings here you're showing me so again with this one you've got in front of me this is around the actions of
02:06:07 of me this is around the actions of national grid in terms of putting the sort of pipe work up the stairwell which is completely different from the parking one which i think you showed me in terms of emergency access
02:06:18 in terms of emergency access so so some are about how what's happening on the ground in the state i mean are very clear about this one
02:06:25 one in terms of actually the national grid and the problems they were causing us they were on several other states as well which were causing problems in terms of their their role they would turn up income
02:06:36 their role they would turn up income that's this one i i i see why you say that um but in general
02:06:41 general the picture we get over the years from councillor blakeman is that there were fire safety issues raised with her by the residents which she raised with you yeah and which we addressed yeah yes and
02:06:52 yeah and which we addressed yeah yes and my question is a more general one which is did any of these or all of these cumulatively ever cause you to question whether fire safety was being properly managed at grenfell tower no why is that
02:07:04 tower no why is that because again you're you're i can't remember all the days i mean i said already you've given me three and there might be different reasons for those ones so the last one about the
02:07:15 for those ones so the last one about the gas risers didn't give you concern that gave me consent we were all concerned about that in fact you know i mean partly we'd finished the refurbishment two months later you've got the national
02:07:26 two months later you've got the national grid uh landing on site and and doing the starting this work and i can understand why residents were upset as we were upset that's the last thing we really wanted
02:07:37 thing we really wanted uh yes councillor blakeman was a tma board member throughout this period wasn't she did did that fact or her status not
02:07:48 did did that fact or her status not give you particular calls for concern that here was one of your board members raising specific concerns admittedly of a different kind yeah over a period
02:07:56 a period with you about fire safety so i think again using your words she raised things at different periods over different times which i feel we address and i would speak to about i i thought i had a fairly reasonable relationship with councillor
02:08:09 reasonable relationship with councillor blackman
02:08:12 could you yourself take any steps positively to reassure her or yourself that fire safety at grenfell tower was being properly managed so that these
02:08:23 properly managed so that these concerns as they kept arising would cease
02:08:26 cease well i think again there's slightly different ones it's not the same one coming up the this one here is completely different from the previous ones let me ask you this
02:08:37 this did grenfell tower stand out in your experience as a particular building with a particular community who complained particularly about fire safety or were were they just run-of-the-mill and lots
02:08:50 were they just run-of-the-mill and lots of residents and lots of high-rises in your stock complained routinely about fire safety
02:08:58 no sorry can you ask that question yes was grenfell a special case where people were constantly i think i was aware of over the years as a number issue happened sort of pre-refurbishment and
02:09:09 happened sort of pre-refurbishment and after
02:09:10 after that are quite different and in in the sense
02:09:14 sense with this one we had issues in other buildings in other states with the this utility companies coming on site so
02:09:29 let me ask you then about the refurbishment and the review can we go to your statement please at page 30
02:09:41 statement please at page 30 and look at paragraphs one five eight and one five nine together you say that in addition the tmo had a strategy
02:09:48 strategy of working with formerly recognized groups across the borough whereby concerns could be raised by the residents association ra required to be conducted in accordance with recognized constitutions
02:09:59 accordance with recognized constitutions to avoid this formality tmo developed a recognized group known as a compact in locations where ra could not be sustained
02:10:09 sustained and including grenfell tower so that issues could be raised more easily and with less formality now you say there was a strategy of working with formally recognized groups was that the resident engagement
02:10:21 was that the resident engagement strategy it would have been part of it yes
02:10:24 yes right right let's just see if we can pin down
02:10:27 down what i what we both mean by that so that other people can understand it tmo double zero eight eight zero four nine nine
02:10:42 nine nine this is um a document entitled resident engagement strategy 2010 to 12. and it's the tmo
02:10:52 do you have any role yourself in in creating this document no it would have been created with the resin engagement team and its managers i see can we go to page six
02:11:03 can we go to page six please on page six you'll see a menu
02:11:09 uh of uh
02:11:14 the reason i call it that is if you go to the foot of page five table one tmo menu of resident involvement opportunities and then if you go over to page six you'll see what the menu
02:11:26 you'll see what the menu consists of and there it all is link magazine residence associations uh etc
02:11:36 and on that list uh you will see uh the third item down resident compact group informal area based groups of
02:11:48 based groups of group of residents so the compact the compact was as it were a formally recognized informal group yes i think that's right um now can we go to eight tmo double zero eight eight
02:12:00 double zero eight eight zero five one nine now this is a version of what appears to be the same document resident engagement strategy 2015 to 17.
02:12:12 strategy 2015 to 17. do we take it that there was one between 2012 and 2014 i would thought so yeah yes um now these are tmo strategies aren't they
02:12:25 now these are tmo strategies aren't they yeah they're not imposed on the tmo by rbkc or anybody else are they no so um if they are a tma strategy then is it right that formalities could be changed or waived
02:12:36 changed or waived in any given case i imagine so yes um going back to your statement if we can then in light of that do you know why it was necessary for the tma to avoid its own formalities
02:12:49 tma to avoid its own formalities by developing the compact
02:12:54 so i think if you have a resident association it's a formal private company which has a chair
02:13:02 a chair a treasurer you need to have a bank account a check account and and a range of other things you have a draft
02:13:08 a draft constitution that that sort of is based of how you work so that's your resident association and i think when i started there were 33 in the time i left i was 67
02:13:19 the time i left i was 67 so in sense they were a formal process but lots of estates didn't have that sometimes didn't have people that wanted to do that didn't want to have that and that was the idea of
02:13:30 have that and that was the idea of having a lucid group i see and i mean given the scale of the grenfell tower refurbishment and the singular nature of the group of residents that it affected as we've seen from voices raised
02:13:43 as we've seen from voices raised from 2011 what was the problem in recognizing a grenfell tower residents association as a residence association i i think this was a question my
02:13:55 i i think this was a question my personally didn't really come to me this was my resident engagement manager janet edwards so the the grantful tower sits on an estate called lancaster west it had an estate management board previously which predated the
02:14:07 previously which predated the utmo and i think her view was that they were starting up a resident association for the whole estate and i said why wouldn't you
02:14:16 you cover that whole whole area rather than just one tower because again you're setting up another group how does it linking i think that was her position right what was your thinking i wasn't
02:14:28 right what was your thinking i wasn't involved in the day-to-day management of resin engagement and actually i had other things
02:14:37 were you aware that the tmo only agreed to residents forming the grenfell compact in relation to the grenfell tower refurbishment in july 2015.
02:14:48 tower refurbishment in july 2015. i've become aware of that yes and were you aware that it was only formally recognized as a compact
02:14:57 compact yes in the sense yeah in october of that year
02:15:00 year yeah yes and only then after the intervention of the local mp lady boric yes i've become aware of that and before that there was no residence group at all to represent the grenfell
02:15:12 group at all to represent the grenfell tower residents views during the refurbishment i think peter had developed a strategy at how we engage with residents rather than through that type of group
02:15:24 rather than through that type of group yeah
02:15:24 yeah i think that's a yes isn't it as a matter of fact there was no residence group
02:15:29 group there to represent the interests and views of the residents of the building during the refurbishment there was a strategy in place to register the views of the residents in
02:15:40 register the views of the residents in the terrible uh yes sorry one more time sorry there was no
02:15:44 was no um residence group yes there was so there was no entity who could
02:15:51 could speak there was a strategy that the tmo had
02:15:54 had but no entity recognized by the tmo who could speak to them yes yes
02:16:02 and why was that i can't recall why it took so long i apologize
02:16:09 let me ask it this way is it because in according status formal or or informal to a group of grenfell tower residents
02:16:19 residents you might be giving voice to some of its more articulate and highly motivated critics
02:16:26 i i can't recall that giving a stage to the more articulate is it is was that behind it no i don't
02:16:37 is it is was that behind it no i don't think that i think you would need to ask janet edwards why it took so long to to get it up and running and why we we couldn't
02:16:44 couldn't [Music]
02:16:45 [Music] it's not easy because some people
02:16:51 don't want to be involved
02:16:58 tm00846106 please
02:17:03 i'd like to go to page two in that email run and look with you at an email from claire williams to peter madison on the 13th of april 2015 where she says subject v2 responds to email of 6 april
02:17:15 subject v2 responds to email of 6 april 2015
02:17:19 just in timing terms this is at an early stage in the life of the compact there had been meetings in the spring of that year
02:17:29 that year at this but at this stage the compact hadn't been recognized and here is the message please see the attached message from grenfell community unite
02:17:39 unite sent easter monday i've sent a holding message and have touted around the proposals proposed responses attached robert black walked by on friday and we discussed the fact that the preference was not to meet up with the grenfell
02:17:50 was not to meet up with the grenfell community unite group which could be a showcase for mr daffan now claire williams said in her evidence and just for our own references that's day
02:18:01 just for our own references that's day one two one page thirty eight lines eighteen to nineteen that the word showcase was her word in her email to mr madison and not yours in the conversation
02:18:12 in the conversation um just to be clear about that but um did you agree uh that the grant that you that the tmo should not meet up with the grenfell community united group
02:18:24 community united group no i think i sent i think this i don't know what clear garrett sent differently but i think i sent it to peter madison as he was the project manager for the group and then he also sent it to uh
02:18:38 he also sent it to uh janet edwards he was working on the ground but i don't remember saying that so he said what i i sorry i think peter sent the letter to uh janna edwards right to see about how
02:18:51 uh janna edwards right to see about how they wanted to work in this together right did you agree that there should not be a meeting between the tma and the grandfield community i have no recollection of agreeing that
02:19:05 and this is a contemporaneous email at the time
02:19:09 the time she's recording a discussion with you uh of the preference not to meet up with the grenfell community unite group do you disagree with that or why to be fair i can't remember
02:19:20 fair i can't remember the context of the conversation on the assumption that that conversation took place as recorded in the first part of this sentence can you explain why um you preferred not to meet with the
02:19:33 um you preferred not to meet with the grenfell community united group i don't think that's what i'm saying i think i sent the information to peter so that he could actually review it and work out how best to take it forward and i think that's why he copied in
02:19:45 and i think that's why he copied in janet edwards as well he was the resin engagement manager well i'm asking you about this conversation which you can't recall but can't deny on the footing that had happened are you able to explain why the preference was not to meet with the grenfell community
02:19:56 not to meet with the grenfell community unite group i can't recall um now if we go please to uh tmo double zero eight five two three eight three three please
02:20:08 three eight three three please page one second email down email judith blakeman to peter madison and claire williams 29th of june 2015
02:20:19 and you are copied in on it and uh it says dear mr madison members of 13 households from grenfell tower came to see councillor atkinson and me at our council of surgery last
02:20:31 and me at our council of surgery last saturday
02:20:32 saturday they were also representing other households who were unable to attend mr daphon kindly waited outside and said we were able to have a constructive discussion both councillor atkinson and i accepted
02:20:43 both councillor atkinson and i accepted that the residents concerns as outlined to us are real and valid and need to be addressed as quickly as possible
02:20:49 possible their concerns are broadly as follows they say
02:20:52 they say that poor communication is a crucial issue
02:20:55 issue they say that numerous emails sent to the tmo including mr black as chief executive
02:20:59 executive have received neither acknowledgement nor reply if this is correct then this is discourteous and unacceptable for example they say that the change of plan to install the heat interface unit in the hallway
02:21:10 in the hallway rather than the kitchen and to use a different heat interface unit from the one originally promised was never communicated or explained i'll look at the newsletters that were speculated to residents when i have the time to do so
02:21:21 time to do so to check the accuracy of this statement the tmo did tell them that after a survey of all residents it was agreed that the preferred method of communication was to be by newsletter some residents said that they were not
02:21:32 some residents said that they were not aware of this survey so perhaps you can let us have sight of the aggregate survey results and then it goes on to detail the more specific concerns about the sighting of the new heat interface units in the hallways
02:21:45 but it also talks as you can see at the bottom of page one and over to page two particularly a third of the way down page two about let me just go to page two
02:21:59 about let me just go to page two uh about the broken entry system and then a third of the way down the page the fact that water had been turned off now
02:22:07 now it's a it's a long litany of complaints about the building um which in which uh are not primarily at least not i think obviously about fire safety but are about engagement over the refurbishment
02:22:19 over the refurbishment if we go to the top of the exchange you can see that you forward the email to sasha jevons on the 29th of june 2015 and you say sasha can you review this is
02:22:32 and you say sasha can you review this is a bit worrying now first did sasha jevens review and report back to you i think so like
02:22:41 like what was her report i can't recall at this stage uh we haven't i think seen anything
02:22:46 anything to that effect but um now it's right isn't it
02:22:50 isn't it that at this point this is now late june 2015
02:22:54 2015 that the tmo had not met residents of grenfell tower since your discussion with claire williams in april 2015 the one you can't recall were you concerned
02:23:04 concerned that they had resorted to going to a council of surgery for help rather than coming directly to the tma no i was concerned that in a sense that we had two resident ways and officers
02:23:15 we had two resident ways and officers from uh ryden's on site we had the project manager his role it was to manage issues and i was concerned that why went these issues being
02:23:26 issues being reviewed and resolved on site when they were there but on site would mean ryden wouldn't it yeah
02:23:33 yeah not the tmo so again as far as i recall the principle was that as ridings were doing the work that in the first step was to go to their resin lays and officers of which
02:23:45 their resin lays and officers of which they had two to address any issues of the work in either individual flats or whatever so that was the so therefore we then had to they should address those issues because they were doing the work and i think they kept a
02:23:57 doing the work and i think they kept a log of
02:23:58 log of issues raised with them and then if they weren't addressed that they would be picked up by claire about why they weren't being addressed
02:24:11 and i can't tell you i can't see why there isn't correspondence with sasha on this
02:24:15 this unless it's come from peter and what about the tmos officers who who were there to deal with residence complaints were you not concerned that they were not in involved as part of this
02:24:26 were not in involved as part of this exercise well i think at this stage it was
02:24:28 was addressing issues of the work with ryden's through the process that we'd agreed with the contractor well you see in the second paragraph it says as i've read to you now in detail
02:24:39 says as i've read to you now in detail that
02:24:40 that poor communication was a crucial issue and they'd send emails to the tmo including you well i mean i can't understand that most so if i didn't send an email but they're usually acknowledged and replied to on my gohan
02:24:55 so did you not see this though as an issue for the residents so far as the tmo is concerned in other words that the residents were upset
02:25:09 that the residents were upset that the tmo rather than ryden rather than our bkc was failing to communicate with them yeah and i was reassured by peter and sasha at different times that we were
02:25:20 different times that we were communicating with the residents by the different means and claire had communicated that she talked to residents as well did anything change as a result of this being brought to your attention and your reaction of worry
02:25:34 and your reaction of worry well i think i was i would still speak to sasha and and peter about why on if these are true why aren't they being addressed was this not the point at which you could wade in and say
02:25:45 could wade in and say i think we should have a compact well they should have a compact i can't recall sorry see the discussion had been
02:25:54 had been throughout the year uh that uh thus far that uh the residents wanted a compact or a a group and it had been denied recognition
02:26:05 recognition was this not the moment uh once 13 mem 13 households had gone along to a saturday surgery to grant the residents of grenfell tower their wish to have a compact
02:26:19 yes yes but in fact never happened until later in the year can you explain why that is no i think i've said that now on tm00852859
02:26:31 now on tm00852859 this is a jmt joint management team meeting on the 2nd of december 2015 tmo double zero eight five two eight five
02:26:42 eight five nine
02:26:45 um and we can see that you uh present uh as with sasha javens and barbara matthews
02:26:54 matthews and if we go to page two you can see a gender item three under governance issue on estate management boards and it was minuted as follows the new ra
02:27:06 and it was minuted as follows the new ra at lancaster west are doing very well and don't appear to be entertaining eddie daffon and his followers it has been noted that eddie daphne is trying to put forward a motion of no confidence in the tmo and wants to start a new emb the emb
02:27:19 and wants to start a new emb the emb predated the tma and their agreement was signed without legal advice this along with the fact that they were not transparent in their accounts
02:27:25 accounts could work to our advantage as they have six thousand pounds of debt outstanding and then in the third paragraph down it says councillor blakeman has also presented a petition with 60 signatures
02:27:36 presented a petition with 60 signatures about our management at grenfell and compensation for residents amanda johnson feels that it is a conflict of interest for councillor blakeman as she is a council appointed tmo board member feli kifidio okay suggested that amanda
02:27:48 feli kifidio okay suggested that amanda johnson speaks to laverne about this as it needs to be urgently addressed
02:27:53 addressed now um it looks as if peter madison was doing the talking here but was he distinguishing grenfell compact uh uh from an r.a residents association
02:28:06 uh uh from an r.a residents association i think so yes and the distinction is is the distinction that he was making the one that you've made in your evidence
02:28:13 evidence namely an ra needs a bank account yeah a constitution etc but a compact doesn't yes i see did the formal requirements to consult
02:28:24 did the formal requirements to consult with a residence association influenced the decision to recognize grenfell grenfell's residence as a compact
02:28:33 i can you say that again sir well let me try the different let me ask you something else did did you agree that councillor
02:28:46 did did you agree that councillor blakeman and eddie daphone were a negative force i think that was the view that peter had in terms of what was going on in the ground uh
02:28:58 what was going on in the ground uh was it your view
02:29:02 my view was in terms of it was quite sometimes
02:29:06 sometimes quite difficult for her she's a counselor i appreciate that we had a counsellor process they listened to complaints i get no trouble with that
02:29:13 with that i think that there was an issue that a perception that she was playing both sides so sometimes she'd come to peter and say hi off often is and how terrible it is and then other times she would
02:29:26 times she would go off and say other things it's a small area
02:29:29 area we have we had eight residents who are board members who live in that area so they pick up things on the ground just as easily as counselors doing so i think there was an issue in terms
02:29:40 so i think there was an issue in terms of actually her behavior around what she said one moment and then another did you know where the residents were going to her because they weren't getting the responses that they were looking for from the tma
02:29:51 looking for from the tma well i think that would that was fine i had no trouble with that i mean if you know and if we fail to deliver i have to accept that responsibility
02:30:01 i mean we have evidence for example from shah ahmed who was chair of the gtla i'll just give the reference we don't need to go to it where he says that he would always copy
02:30:12 where he says that he would always copy councillor blakeman in and others into his emails because he had no faith in the tmo complaints procedure
02:30:19 procedure you can't dispute that as a fact can you well i think it's his view that's his view that's iws four zeros one three three five page 11 paragraph 26
02:30:30 26 are you able to explain how it came about that mr shah had no faith in the tmos complaints procedure i can't remember the history of mr shah and all the bits behind it
02:30:43 and i it's always sad that we can get people to feel that we'd listen to the complaints let's look a bit more specifically what mr daffan says this is his phase two statement
02:30:55 iws402109 page 47 paragraph 119.
02:31:03 he says
02:31:06 there
02:31:09 in the fourth line down the ineffectiveness of the complaints process was one of the reasons why i would try
02:31:14 would try to raise issues with the tma through other means through my local counsellor through emails copying and lots of other people including other counsellors so they couldn't be brushed under the carpet and through blogs to publicize
02:31:25 carpet and through blogs to publicize what was going on were you aware of any problem with the complaints process
02:31:33 process at the time by which i mean the range of years between 2013 and 2017. i mean our complaints process was reviewed
02:31:41 reviewed reduced in terms of the number of stages and
02:31:44 and was sort of fairly bulk standard in terms of industry about what complaints procedure looks like you know three stages two stages were officers one stage was bored and then after that you had the option
02:31:55 and then after that you had the option of either going to the house or not independent house and omniscient or if a leaseholder if there's a specific complaint you might go to a leasehold valuation drive you know an lvt
02:32:05 lvt so in in so i think the the system is is sort of quite normal i think historically there had been too many stages
02:32:14 stages a lot of organizations find that out so the whole idea was try to make it faster uh so that if someone was still unhappy they could go to an independent house or nonsense
02:32:27 was the as a matter of impression there was the fact that residents were going to edward daphon someone described
02:32:35 described those people as his followers but going to him rather than the tmo with complaints or going to councillor blakeman with complaints rather than the tma
02:32:46 complaints rather than the tma was that not indicative of a general problem
02:32:50 problem with the complaints process i think it's a general problem of trying to deal with some
02:32:55 some people who yeah i don't know
02:33:01 i i think we struggle sometimes in terms of trying to manage the issues
02:33:11 but i feel my staff did try to respond to it
02:33:15 to it and i think you know i didn't really ever have a relationship with mr defan uh and that it's quite difficult i think
02:33:26 uh and that it's quite difficult i think for lots of people
02:33:30 what's difficult for lots of people trying to build a relationship with mr the fan i don't want to personalize this
02:33:42 well i'm not inviting you to personalize it and i agree that one shouldn't but my point is a a a general one did you ever pick up on the fact
02:33:54 did you ever pick up on the fact that the fact that residents were going to mr daffan or miss blakeman councillor blakeman with complaints indicative of a problem with the tmo complaints process
02:34:05 complaints process well because i think we dealt with complaints and some you know in some a lot of them were resolved i think it depends in situations like this where it's just
02:34:16 in situations like this where it's just difficult
02:34:19 difficult right now
02:34:22 i'm going to ask you some questions next about hpsc the rbkc housing property and scrutiny committee
02:34:32 can we please look at the jmt meeting minutes we saw a moment ago we weren't we'd skipped away from them let me just go back to those please at tmo double zero eight five two eight five
02:34:44 zero eight five two eight five nine second of december 2015 and i showed you the reference to the petition presented by councillor blakeman and the 60 signatures uh from residents on it let's
02:34:55 signatures uh from residents on it let's look at the petition itself now it's at rbk50110
02:35:07 and there it is the signatures start about a half way down your screen with david collins number one antonio aderio number two and the text
02:35:18 antonio aderio number two and the text reads as follows we the undersigned residents of grenfell tower ask the chairman
02:35:22 chairman of the housing and property scrutiny committee to undertake an urgent scrutiny of the tmo and ryden's management of the refurbishment project currently underway at grenfell tower time and again residents views have been ignored or downplayed despite
02:35:34 ignored or downplayed despite interventions from our mp victoria borrick and our ward councillors our day-to-day concerns are belittled
02:35:40 belittled and sidelined while we we recognize that once completed the tower will at long last be fit for the 21st century during this process we have had to endure living conditions that at times have been intolerable
02:35:51 have been intolerable we understand that the council will be commencing a major program of regeneration throughout the borough and that this may involve refurbishment rather than demolition of some other tower blocks in view of this it is vital that all the
02:36:02 in view of this it is vital that all the lessons from the grenfell tower project are learned said that the terrible daily living conditions inflicted upon us for so long
02:36:08 so long are not replicated elsewhere as part of this investigation the residents of grenfell tower ask that their views and experiences be canvassed and included in the scrutiny report
02:36:19 and included in the scrutiny report now was the request that residents voices and experiences um be canvassed and included in the report a reasonable one
02:36:30 a reasonable one to your way of thinking at the time yeah it was did you consider whether the tmo should appoint an independent person to investigate the resident's concerns not at that stage no
02:36:41 not at that stage no why not because i felt that we could review ourselves in line with our our own complaints even though
02:36:48 though an independent investigation would be a reasonable one i that was a decision at the time
02:36:59 uh now tm you said that was the decision at the time do i take it from that that that wasn't your decision
02:37:08 uh i'm just trying to remember how it all fits together well we'll cut we'll look at it but you said that was the decision at the time whose decision was it at the time
02:37:19 whose decision was it at the time not to have an independent investigation as asked for i think it might be in sashas and peters
02:37:27 but i can't recall at this stage right we'll
02:37:32 we'll let's park that answer and maybe we'll come back to it shortly let's see how this progresses so as to be fair to you and see the chronology as it unfolded can we go to tm0087971
02:37:44 can we go to tm0087971 please this is an email
02:37:54 halfway down your screen from laura johnson
02:37:57 johnson to you on the 9th of december 2015 so a week after the petition
02:38:04 and it's also sent to peter madison subject fw petition presented at council last night peter and robert please see below i shall arrange for a response to be
02:38:15 shall arrange for a response to be drafted to the petition that says that we will not be undertaking a comprehensive survey of residents views and the performance of ryden but we'll discuss the petition at the next housing
02:38:26 discuss the petition at the next housing and property scrutiny committee i'll discuss with you what information we may wish to make available to members on the night to help aid the discussion
02:38:36 now laura johnson well did you read laura johnson when you read that email as opposed to the petition request
02:38:44 request that the residents of grenfell towers complaints be investigated independently
02:38:53 well sorry no not independently she says we will not be undertaking a comprehensive survey of residents views and the performance of writing
02:39:04 when you read that and i suppose it's obvious really did you understand her to be opposed to the petition request for their complaints to be investigated uh clearly she was um
02:39:17 uh clearly she was um yes yes yes how do you discuss this petition
02:39:20 petition with laura johnson before she wrote to you on the 9th of december uh i can't recall did her response to you come as a surprise
02:39:31 uh
02:39:36 i can't recall at the time sorry given the complaints and correspondence from residents historically that we've gone through
02:39:42 through this morning and given the the text of the petition itself and the sheer number of signatories did you not think that this was a useful opportunity for an independent
02:39:54 opportunity for an independent well first of all for a review of the project whether independent or not well i think we're very happy to review the project when it was completed yes that was built into the plan it was built into the plan and lessons land
02:40:07 built into the plan and lessons land so i i see so let me try and understand that you say you were happy to have a review of the project when it was completed
02:40:13 completed that was built into the plan but here's laura johnson saying that um they that is rbkc will not be undertaking a comprehensive survey of residents views and the performance of ryden how do how
02:40:24 and the performance of ryden how do how do those two positions reconcile with each other because this is rbkc saying this whereas what we'd say is we'd carry out our view of the province when it was completed i see so you you read this as simply stating
02:40:37 so you you read this as simply stating the council's position they weren't going to do a review but they were happy that you should do one yes i see
02:40:46 but you weren't going to do an independent one no
02:40:52 uh now then we go on to the next day tmo double zero eight nine nine
02:40:59 nine four nine nine here is a meeting a weekly catch-up meeting between you and the chair fair edwards which is minuted formally
02:41:12 fair edwards which is minuted formally you see that yeah just the two of you plus jill petfield as the note taker and
02:41:20 uh under update fourth paragraph down you say it is said a petition with 60 signatures including councillor blakeman and eddie daffan have been received by
02:41:33 and eddie daffan have been received by rbkc asking for an investigation into the tmo and ryden's laura laura johnson councillor fielding mellon
02:41:42 mellon and councillor marshall are all okay about this and there will be an open session of january scrutiny committee and the conservative councillors will be briefed eddie daffon is causing lots of problems with peter madison
02:41:57 uh and uh and then it goes on about another
02:42:00 another set of signatures from verity class asking for an urgent and thorough investigation into the management culture at tma
02:42:10 uh and if you look at the very first item on the top of the page you um you can see there's also a point about
02:42:20 about councillor blakeman sending large amounts of emails and it is becoming an issue
02:42:28 if you look on
02:42:38 you can see that uh
02:42:44 in the second paragraph faye asked if councillor blatant should still be a tma board member um the first question is is was it a problem
02:42:54 problem for councillor blatant to be sending a large amount of emails if she was receiving a large number of complaints no
02:43:01 no it's to make sure they were managed i would put that context do you know why faye edwards questioned whether councillor blakeman should be a tmo board member uh i i think there'd been an issue in
02:43:13 uh i i think there'd been an issue in terms of
02:43:14 terms of uh how she acted outside the board so faye was aware of through other resident and resident board members uh again i i wasn't privy to those conversations
02:43:25 conversations and then as i've read to you it says that uh after the reference to the petition laura johnson council of feeling melon and councillor marshall are all okay about this uh what were they okay about i think it
02:43:37 uh what were they okay about i think it was agreeing that it would go through scrutiny
02:43:39 scrutiny were they okay about having an investigation or or i can't recall from that i just thought it would be going to screening
02:43:50 screening just trying to get to the bottom of what they're okay about were they okay about about going along with what the petition asked or about entertaining the petition or but or confident that they could see it off
02:44:01 it off i think their view was that the tmo had done
02:44:06 done a good job and that while they could see this position it wasn't always the reflection of the work that had been done so from a political point of view they
02:44:17 so from a political point of view they seem to be saying that you know we can manage this
02:44:23 and if you look immediately below that you can see that there was a second petition also with six new signatures from verity class for an urgent and
02:44:34 from verity class for an urgent and thorough investigation into the management culture at the tmo to identify and remedy endemic negligence incompetence and other malpractice and then below that there's a a letter
02:44:45 and then below that there's a a letter received from the residents association notting wood house complaint there by the end of of this year this is 2015
02:44:58 by the end of of this year this is 2015 this rather suggests that at that time residents concerns with the tmo management were not unusual is that is that fair
02:45:06 that fair no i so i think remember the team wasn't having
02:45:09 having spoken about is a membership organization and in a sense one of the key things is that every year the tmo had to go through a process of election where the members
02:45:21 a process of election where the members were asked about if they wanted to continue to manage the stock so we had 10 000 homes and we had five thousand six hundred members which for a membership organization was not bad in
02:45:33 membership organization was not bad in terms of when i joined very few members because of lots of issues around behavior and threats at meetings had fallen away so that the actual outcome of that vote hadn't been
02:45:45 outcome of that vote hadn't been brilliant although the ones that they'd vote were supportive over a number of years we recorded and its separate organization managed the whole process which showed there was a large amount of
02:45:57 which showed there was a large amount of the residents who actually were happy with their service and who wanted the teamworld to manage the to continue to manage excuse me then so for me yes we get complaints but
02:46:09 for me yes we get complaints but actually
02:46:11 actually we've got lots of members who are saying they want us to continue and in 2013 the other thing a tmo has to do is have a thing called a test of opinion
02:46:19 opinion where you ask not just your members but actually your non-members if they want us to continue to manage the stock and again that was quite interesting because i think please forgive me if i
02:46:30 because i think please forgive me if i forget the number wrong i think it was roughly 3
02:46:32 roughly 3 420 people voted favorably 85 percent to say they wanted the teamwork to manage the stock the majority of them were known members so these were
02:46:43 known members so these were people who actually just lived in our homes weren't members but actually wanted to continue so in the sense for me while i recognize the point you're making about the detail also the job to look at the big picture
02:46:55 also the job to look at the big picture stuff
02:46:55 stuff in terms of it as a team mode you have a membership that's actually taking part in in your democratic processes and i think the track record shows that
02:47:06 shows that over a period of eight years we increase membership we increase the number and diversity of people who are members and we increase the number of people taking part in that vote we also recruited
02:47:17 vote we also recruited recorded satisfaction so again when i started i think satisfaction was 54 percent of her call properly after we knocked and owned all 10 000 doors they asked people's
02:47:28 all 10 000 doors they asked people's opinion we got 75 and when we continued year on year people were recording uh high levels of satisfaction so i that's just some context which so in
02:47:39 that's just some context which so in terms of actually what the board is looking at are you are you have you got members who are
02:47:45 are happy to vote for you the emb was a predated us so we had members who were emb members and tmo members so sometimes a bit confusing don't know
02:47:57 don't know so in terms of that's what we reported so recognizing you know i can't make everybody happy and there were people obviously as you've shown me who are very unhappy and we sought to try to
02:48:10 and we sought to try to resolve things as best we could mr black this document shows that at the same time
02:48:19 time the end of 2015 tmo is in receipt of two signatu petitions each bearing 60 signatures was that a regular occurrence
02:48:30 regular occurrence no i i can't remember i mean i obviously can recall the grenfell petition but i can't recall what the other one was just reporting this to uh to my board how often did you in your
02:48:42 to my board how often did you in your time from 2009 to the 14th of june 2017 uh get 60 signature petitions asking for urgent and thorough investigations
02:48:54 investigations not often no so did the fact that two came along at once not um rather strike you that something might have been going wrong as i say i'm i'm struggling to remember
02:49:05 as i say i'm i'm struggling to remember the second one even though it's recorded so apologies
02:49:11 let's go to rbk50116
02:49:23 if we go please to the second email down on the page this is an email from you to laura johnson on the 4th of january 2016.
02:49:35 january 2016. laura councillor blakeman is sending this information to my board members and copying and other counsellors outside the board robert now councillor blakeman was a board member wasn't she yes was there any any principled objection
02:49:47 was there any any principled objection to tmo board members communicating with each other not in principle no no was there a principled objection to one to one councillor communicating with her fellow councillors
02:50:00 fellow councillors i don't i mean no i don't think so was there a principled objection in councillor blakeman sending information to the members of the tmo board
02:50:11 to the members of the tmo board i can't recall whether the company's secretary had issues with that
02:50:18 you can't remember one way or the other i'll recall at a moment sorry well then you can't recall uh i would suggest you that there is there can be no principled objection to councillor blakeman
02:50:30 objection to councillor blakeman whether as councillor or as director sending
02:50:33 sending information to the tmo board
02:50:41 in relation at least to the capacity in which she's sending it you agree with that yes now if we go to page two we can see what it is
02:50:52 it is that is being sent this is the email from councillor blakeman the same day earlier in the day to uh a range of people and we've skipped i think too quickly onto page two
02:51:04 think too quickly onto page two due to my enthusiasm but if we can see the foot of page one you'll see who's who is being emailed uh
02:51:13 you are uh and we have jeff zitron and peter chapman who i think were also board members weren't they yeah they were independent one they were the independents yes uh and copied to um
02:51:27 yes uh and copied to um john sweeney councillor atkins councillors atkinson and lashari and then over the top uh to page two please
02:51:37 please dear colleague it's a pity she says that the board discussion this evening on grenfell tower is to take place in the confidential part of our agenda we'll also pity that the briefing name for the board cannot be made available to the residents
02:51:48 to the residents i'm therefore forwarding an email from the grenfell tower compact which i hope will give you some sense of the way that the residents are currently feeling and in the second paragraph she says that the petition was to address
02:51:59 that the petition was to address what she calls very real concerns very real serious and ongoing concerns of grenfell tower residents and then if you look at the end of the third
02:52:10 you look at the end of the third paragraph she says residents of grenfell tower do not wish the problems they have been experiencing to be replicated elsewhere and it is therefore vital that the tma and the council learn the lessons of grenfell
02:52:22 grenfell now now why was the discussion about grenfell tower confidential to be placed in the confidential part of the agenda
02:52:32 i as far as i can recall the my board paper was confidential to the scrutiny committee so they could have a discussion
02:52:44 discussion i think the scrutiny committee asked us to address look at these issues and what my board did was send them a paper i think it was confidential because they wanted that discussion with
02:52:55 because they wanted that discussion with the security committee i think there was also at that time data
02:53:00 time data issues around the protection protection of data act
02:53:06 right who decided that that discussion should be confidential i think it was my board
02:53:10 board the whole board so there was a so i'm trying to remember so the the paper that went was from the board
02:53:18 board to squishy it was overseen by one of my independents uh paulo fans and she was supposed to be on the night uh presenting the paper
02:53:29 on the night uh presenting the paper so the context the board set up a panel to look at this i wasn't part of that panel and i wasn't supposed to be presenting the paper it was supposed to be the board
02:53:44 was it paul offense then who decided that the
02:53:48 that the this part of the discussion should be confidential i can't recall i think it was a board did you share councillor blakeman's view that this was an opportunity to learn
02:54:00 that this was an opportunity to learn lessons from the grandfather refurbishment for the future in the future yes
02:54:09 now can we go to rbk 50113
02:54:17 this is an email that you sent to laura johnson
02:54:21 johnson the same day 4th of january 2016 about 15 minutes later in which you you forward to her for information the draft paper
02:54:33 for information the draft paper councillor blayman wanted to take to scrutiny
02:54:37 scrutiny you say laura for information and draft paper she wants to take to scrutiny again she's sending stuff to my board and others outside it i feel like going home yeah that was only ten to one
02:54:49 only ten to one why did you feel like going home tired right um was that really not actually more of an expression of your discomfort with councillor blakeman raising issues with councillors about
02:55:01 raising issues with councillors about grenfell
02:55:02 grenfell no i think it was just a general reflection of high-risk feeling right
02:55:10 i mean feeling because you were not feeling well or or feeling by way of reaction to what was happening
02:55:20 then we're not interested say that yeah it's the former then we're not interested i can't remember it it's right it's probably just how i felt all right um now um can we go to the draft paper that you're sending laura johnson here
02:55:32 that you're sending laura johnson here it's at rbk50115
02:55:48 and it's entitled some suggested learning points from the grenfell tower refurbishment project this is the document that councillor blame had put together for the scrutiny committee meeting wasn't it
02:56:00 committee meeting wasn't it i think so yes yes and uh well did you read it first of all i would have done yes yes but if you look at the main headline recommendations let's look at them um
02:56:12 recommendations let's look at them um quickly we'll scroll scroll down the first is communications must be delivered honestly and transparently to all residents and if anything changes this should be communicated immediately and with clarity
02:56:22 clarity number two tell residents everything they need to know at the start of the project not during it or at the end
02:56:30 end and it goes on in that vein
02:56:34 we scroll down to page one bottom of one over to two make sure the resident make sure the tmo knows and understands the personal circumstances of every resident ensures it makes special arrangements when these are
02:56:45 special arrangements when these are needed
02:56:47 needed gives examples of each respite facilities lines of communication different community different consultation mechanisms so that the tmo is not accused of picking residents off one by one
02:56:58 one by one language issues literary issues and then seven on page three appoint an independent residence advocate with direct access to senior tma management together with the
02:57:09 tma management together with the dedicated member of tma staff to collate and progress all inquiries and concerns about
02:57:14 about the project while it is running
02:57:20 first looking at those main headline recommendations that i haven't shown them all
02:57:25 them all to you do you agree that that on reading them
02:57:28 them they were reasonable and sensible yes yeah
02:57:33 yeah she provided examples for each recommendation didn't she yeah did they strike you at the time as sensible examples proportionate yes if we look at seven as i've shown
02:57:44 yes if we look at seven as i've shown you
02:57:45 you the independent residence advocate um in the example she says my email box shows that i had over 300 email exchanges with the tmo in
02:57:57 over 300 email exchanges with the tmo in 2015 alone on grenfell tower matters that's a lot isn't it yes yeah uh and she appears to share your concern that she was sending too many emails
02:58:08 that she was sending too many emails about grenfell but has come up with a rather different conclusion doesn't she yeah she
02:58:17 yeah she says uh the tmo should consider whether it's sufficiently well staffed to deal with everything that a major refurbishment project will inevitably generate
02:58:25 generate if all inquiries visits and meetings were channeled through one independent advocate and a dedicated tma officer this could save a huge amount of effort for everyone um
02:58:36 what did you make of that i mean i think if we were to do another title then in a sense i would have i in principle not again said i think because we felt that
02:58:47 because we felt that grenfell had two full-time people built into
02:58:51 into ryden's contract to deal with issues that arise from the work that that was enough and also that we had claire williams involved in the project and peter overseeing it i mean so therefore you
02:59:02 overseeing it i mean so therefore you know
02:59:03 know i will accept that one of the things you i would have to accept is that you know if i was do it again i would probably look at doing this right but she she was telling you well
02:59:14 right but she she was telling you well that when it happened again you should look at doing it that that's what this was so why were you so resistant to it what for going forward to the future i don't think i was
02:59:25 don't think i was i think again that was partly when we finished the project and the idea is to actually do the review at the end uh is to pick up all these points and then that would have been
02:59:36 that would have been picked up at that time
02:59:39 this was going forward it wasn't about that indeed it's lessons learned isn't it going forward we i don't think we've seen any documents correct me if i'm wrong where you fasten on
02:59:50 wrong where you fasten on this particular instance and say this is a very good idea let's do that in future it clearly didn't work in the for grenfell we don't see anything like that okay
02:59:59 that okay can you explain why that is no i can't explain mr chairman is this a convenient moment
03:00:03 moment yes i think it is thank you very much mr black we'll have a break now so we can all get some lunch yep we'll resume at two o'clock please and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room
03:00:33 peace