Graham Webb, Managing Director of Repairs Direct, provides evidence about health and safety management, fire safety procedures, and responsive repairs. Discussion of FRA action backlogs, training deficiencies, and coordination with TMO on fire safety matters.
00:00:44 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear evidence from mr graham webb
00:00:50 webb who was the managing director of repairs direct
00:00:54 direct which carried out responsive repairs for the tmo
00:00:59 the tmo yes mr clear sir may i call mr webb thank you
00:01:12 thank you good morning mr webb it's nice to see you again i understand you're going to take the oath there should be a testament on the table beside you would you take that in your right hand please and read the words on the screen i swear
00:01:25 and read the words on the screen i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much do sit down make herself
00:01:38 comfortable
00:01:43 yes you'd like some water you thank you take some
00:01:50 good thank you when you're ready mr cleo thanks sir would you mind confirming your name
00:01:53 your name for the record graeme webb thank you good morning mr webb thank you for attending today to give evidence um before we start questioning the three things i should uh perhaps set out before we start first of
00:02:04 perhaps set out before we start first of all if at any time you feel you need a break please say so that's not a problem secondly if you could keep your voice up throughout that enables the shorthand writer to capture everything you say and
00:02:15 writer to capture everything you say and capture accurately and thirdly and perhaps most importantly my questions are hopefully clear sometimes they're not if they're not clear to you please don't hesitate to say so and i'll rephrase it
00:02:26 hesitate to say so and i'll rephrase it so it's comprehensible thank you now you have provided five statements to the inquiry the first statement is dated the 23rd of august 2018
00:02:37 august 2018 which is found at tm01048963
00:02:43 is that it yes it is your second statement
00:02:47 statement is dated the 14th of february 2019 can be found at tm0084036 is that it yes it is third statement
00:02:59 is that it yes it is third statement dated the 17th of april 2019 which is at tmo
00:03:03 tmo double zero eight four zero three six eight
00:03:10 is that it yes it is fourth statement dated the 20th of august 2019 which is a tmo
00:03:16 tmo one double zero four double nine eight six
00:03:26 and is that it yes it is thank you and fifthly and finally the statement dated the 25th of september 2019 tmo double zero eight four two three seven nine
00:03:39 and is that it yes it is thank you have you read each of those statements recently
00:03:43 recently i have yes and can you confirm their contents are true they are indeed and you're content for those statements to stand as your evidence this inquiry i am yes thank you now the first topic i'd like to discuss with you today is
00:03:54 i'd like to discuss with you today is your personal experience and training now um if we turn to paragraph three of your second statement which can be found at tmo double zero eight four zero three double six forward
00:04:06 eight four zero three double six forward slash one
00:04:10 in the first line there you say my career background is in high volume operational team management what do you mean by high volume operational team management so in my background i have
00:04:22 management so in my background i have led
00:04:23 led large teams of security staff at heathrow airport where i led a team of 1 200 people um i've also led large teams of repair staff so electricians plumbers
00:04:36 repair staff so electricians plumbers plasterers um i've had manufacturing teams so very much
00:04:41 much blue-collar dynamic quick turnaround workforces thank you and staying in the same paragraph at the end of the second line you say that early in my career i spent a year in social housing repairs and maintenance
00:04:52 maintenance yes now for whom did you work during that year
00:04:55 that year i worked for morrison thank you and when was that year um from my recollection was around 2012. thank you and what was your role at that organization
00:05:06 organization i was a regional director and i looked after the
00:05:10 after the responsive repairs and void contracts across
00:05:13 across approximately six different clients um which included in chelsea tmo um london bar revealing and a number of others so can we take it from that you had experience before you started
00:05:24 had experience before you started repairs direct in maintenance of properties yes i did what experience did you have in relation to the maintenance of fire safety systems
00:05:33 systems i do not any specific experience of maintenance in as it affected fire doors uh yes so um in social housing repairs and maintenance of course um
00:05:45 repairs and maintenance of course um then there was a responsibility for normally on the front front doors for flats
00:05:51 flats and in smoke alarms and smoke sensors that sort of thing within property and also occasionally on the repair of communal fire doors thank you and what experience did you have of the management of health and
00:06:02 have of the management of health and safety generally as a manager of large operational teams um
00:06:07 um i was used to used to managing teams and putting health and safety at the front of the agenda making sure we had a culture of safety leadership um and and encouraged our staff to
00:06:19 um and and encouraged our staff to report
00:06:20 report not only accidents but near misses so we could learn from those and and eradicate the opportunities for those who occur again thank you um could we turn to tmo double zero eight five three zero double seven forward slash
00:06:33 three zero double seven forward slash 14
00:06:43 and we see there in the top right hand corner this is the spring 2016 edition of the link which is the tmos newsletter and it's the announcement of your appointment as managing director of repairs direct
00:06:55 repairs direct now it says in that paragraph that you had at the time senior management and operational leadership experience in social housing repairs and maintenance yes was that your one year at morrison's
00:07:06 was that your one year at morrison's that's been referred to there yes it would be yes and nothing else beyond that no it does refer to my time at rock group
00:07:13 group plc rock which is a company which no longer exists dealt with domestic insurance repairs so similar times of activities um in generally privately owned homes as
00:07:25 um in generally privately owned homes as a result of a leaky boiler or something of that sort thank you and what was your experience as operations director for safety clean uk in relation to the maintenance of properties um so i'm
00:07:37 maintenance of properties um so i'm safety clean uk i had a wide brief i i was responsible for their manufacturing operation but it was also responsible for all of the facilities in the uk
00:07:45 the uk so the maintenance management um uh soft defensive cleaning reception desks
00:07:52 desks uh and also all the usual safety systems legionella etc uh during your time with morrisons what experience did you have of dealing with the tmo
00:08:01 the tmo uh so uh the tmo was one of i believe six contracts that i looked after so i had a local manager embedded within the tmo who ran the day-to-day operation of the contract
00:08:13 the day-to-day operation of the contract and that was one of the cluster of contracts
00:08:15 contracts i looked after for morrisons were there any issues that you encountered during that time about
00:08:22 about problems with maintenance at repairs direct
00:08:26 direct and responsiveness and turn around there was a backlog of repairs that we were struggling that morrison was struggling to
00:08:32 to clear um and uh we were involved in conversations with the tmo around how we could provide more resource to try and clear the backlog and that was your experience in 2012
00:08:44 and that was your experience in 2012 yeah and
00:08:45 yeah and and and it it yeah in short um it was agreed that we were we were unable to provide the service that they required within the funding that would be
00:08:54 be the price points have been agreed so um so morrison's served notices on the contract
00:08:59 contract mr webb thank you and before we go into the next topic it may well be the shorthand writer is having some difficulties keeping up with you i'm sorry it's um if you can maybe adopt a slower pacemaker yes thank you very much right can we
00:09:12 yes thank you very much right can we turn to tmo one double zero four eight nine six three
00:09:16 three four slash one
00:09:20 now this is paragraph two of your first statement to the inquiry and you explain there that repairs direct was a wholly owned subsidiary of rbk ctmo and its role was to deal with reactive repairs in residential housing
00:09:33 reactive repairs in residential housing managed by tmo is that a fair summary yes it is can you help the panel and explain um briefly your role and responsibilities as managing director of repairs direct
00:09:44 repairs direct so repairs direct handled all of the responsive repairs within the homes that were owned by the royal borough so that would mean everything from a leaky tap
00:09:55 everything from a leaky tap to perhaps a uh repairing a like switch or repairing a door and also dealt with what was known as voids to avoid properties
00:10:06 avoid properties are homes which have been vacated for one or other reason and my team would visit that property and do whatever work was necessary to bring it back up to a defined
00:10:17 to bring it back up to a defined lettable standard thank you now sasha jevons who's the tmos director of operations um says in her statement and we don't need to go to it but the reference is tier mo quintuple zero eight nine three
00:10:29 tier mo quintuple zero eight nine three forward slash six that's paragraph 29 the third line she says this graham was directly accountable to the repairs direct board however i had a dotted line management function over him
00:10:40 function over him would you agree that sasha jevons had a dotted line management function above you i would yes and what did that dotted line mean in practice well uh in essence as the repairs direct
00:10:52 well uh in essence as the repairs direct was a standard was a separate limiting company i was answerable to the board of repairs direct
00:10:57 direct but for day-to-day issues such as approving periods of annual leave then then i would defer to sasha for approval
00:11:05 approval now the next topic i'd like to turn to is the information that was provided to you
00:11:09 you about the issues that were confronting repairs direct when you join the company now if we can turn to rbk trouble zero six zero five seven six forward slash one
00:11:24 now this document as its uh front page shows was a uh audit report concerning repairs direct and it's dated may 2014. um first of all were you briefed on its contents when you arrived at repairs
00:11:36 contents when you arrived at repairs direct
00:11:36 direct i don't recall being briefed on these contents no have you seen this document before um i don't believe so do you recall any reference to an audit
00:11:47 do you recall any reference to an audit report of repairs direct in may 2014 during your time at repairsdirect i recall that i was told that rbkc would from time to time audit
00:12:00 from time to time audit repairs direct but i don't recall a specific reference to a report from may 2014. and you don't recall asking whether rbkc had previously carried out any audits
00:12:11 carried out any audits no could we turn stay in this document and turn to page 12.
00:12:19 and we see in the top left hand corner refers there to repairs quality monitoring and the audit identified a number of areas of concern
00:12:30 identified a number of areas of concern or errors for concern um set out in the bottom left hand corner which included there in the first bullet point at the bottom of the page general level of poor quality workmanship and if we go over the page
00:12:42 workmanship and if we go over the page and we see at the very top left hand corner work claimed as completed but where no work was actually undertaken if we skip one we see failure by some operatives to adhere to basic
00:12:54 by some operatives to adhere to basic health and safety processes and if we go to the very bottom of the list we see quality of work produced by subcontractors is not included
00:13:03 included in surveys and if we could turn to page 14
00:13:08 14 we can look at the bottom paragraph and the third
00:13:11 the third and fourth bullet points there greater focus on the quality of workmanship during the post inspection process and further health and safety training with random spot checks
00:13:22 with random spot checks on both employees and sub-contractors now in relation to those identified failings in the audit and the steps taken to resolve them sasha jevon said in her evidence and the
00:13:33 sasha jevon said in her evidence and the reference
00:13:34 reference we don't need to go to but the reference is day 127 page 117 lines 2-7 she said this i know graeme was doing a lot of work in terms of these particular items
00:13:45 items focus groups so for example we had a lot of work in the contact center on our processes
00:13:50 processes a lot of work on improving the it systems we did health and safety gap analysis more training now first of all do you agree with sasha jevons did she give a comprehensive summary there of the steps you were
00:14:02 summary there of the steps you were taking to make good the deficiencies identified in this plan yes can you briefly summarize in your own words what steps you took to meet those deficiencies set out in
00:14:15 to meet those deficiencies set out in the audit plan firstly i made clear the the daily service level targets that were expected of the team and make sure that the team were fully briefed of those so they had an expectation
00:14:27 of those so they had an expectation though over how old a repair job should be before it was completed so the time taken between it being notified to us
00:14:36 to us and the job being completed we also made very clear our expectations on the quality of repairs and our aspirations that a repair should be
00:14:47 our aspirations that a repair should be completed on the first time a visit rather than requiring subsequent visits
00:14:52 visits and we did that through a number of different processes but what was clear to me when i joined the organization was that staff lacked an understanding of that vision
00:15:03 lacked an understanding of that vision and lacked guidance and lacked um motivation to achieve those targets now given that you haven't seen rbkc's audit of may 2014 how did you yourself identify the
00:15:15 how did you yourself identify the failings that you set about addressing um so in the time before i i started work there there had been an interim managing director called paul javo who had been responsible for managing
00:15:27 who had been responsible for managing the
00:15:28 the uh repairs direct since uh the product that my predecessor had left he produced a report which picked up on many similar points and when i first arrived i took the time
00:15:39 and when i first arrived i took the time to spend time on the road with uh with our operatives to talk to residents to talk to council and members to talk to our customer service team who took telephone calls
00:15:49 calls and really get first-hand experience of how people felt about the service that we were delivering when you uh succeeded paul gevo did you have a handover discussion of any sort yes we did can you recall the gist of
00:16:02 yes we did can you recall the gist of the conversation you had with mr javo on that occasion um it mirrored many of the points that may that were made here and was there's an individual called chris davis who's the interim health and
00:16:14 chris davis who's the interim health and safety
00:16:15 safety manager repairs direct i don't recall that name
00:16:20 uh do you call mr javo telling you uh or advising about the importance of ensuring jobs are quotes made good to fire resisting standard i don't recall him making that point
00:16:31 i don't recall him making that point specifically we talked about the quality of repair and the need to improve that but we didn't talk specifically around the point that you mentioned okay could we go to tm0120720
00:16:45 could we go to tm0120720 which is a health and safety action plan prepared for the tmo's health and safety committee
00:16:50 committee in january 2016.
00:16:58 and if we can go to thank you row
00:17:02 13 and reference a5 column b
00:17:09 it says continue to work with anr which is asset and regeneration
00:17:15 and repairs direct to ensure that fire safety firmly embedded in all work and if we look at column e so going rightwards it says that janitoriae met with rd such
00:17:28 it says that janitoriae met with rd such repairs direct health and safety and impressed on him the importance of ensuring jobs are quotes made good to fire resisting standard
00:17:36 standard now having seen that plan prepared in january 2016 and having had your memory refreshed do you call anything about mr javo
00:17:47 you call anything about mr javo making the point that jobs are made good to a fire resisting standard no i don't recall him making a statement to that effect did janice ray impress upon you the
00:17:58 did janice ray impress upon you the importance of making jobs good to a fire resisting standard at any time janice ray and i had a number of meetings as part of my induction to um
00:18:09 meetings as part of my induction to um to the role and to the organization i don't recall her particularly flagging that as a concern but we had a far-ranging conversation around health and safety performance generally thank you
00:18:21 generally thank you now when you joined repairs direct did you receive any information regarding the company's role in reducing fire risk and ensuring the tmo complied with its fire safety obligations
00:18:32 fire safety obligations um sorry would i ask you to repeat the question of course when you joined the company did you receive any information about repair direct's
00:18:41 direct's role in reducing fire risk and assisting the tmo to comply with performance of its fire safety obligations i don't recall specific conversations on that topic
00:18:52 that topic um i do recall broader conversations around health and safety obligations and requirements did fire safety have any particular prominence in those discussions uh no i mean if i'm to be honest
00:19:05 uh no i mean if i'm to be honest it is inherent in the nature of responsive repairs to have an awareness of fire safety precautions and the work that you do and then how you leave a repair when completed how did you following on from that answer how did
00:19:17 following on from that answer how did you see repair direct's role in assisting the tmo perform its fire safety obligations so it's important that the operatives have a clear understanding of the risk
00:19:29 have a clear understanding of the risk relating to work that they do and that's fulfilled by standard risk assessments for certain tasks so for example there will be a standard generic risk assessment
00:19:40 generic risk assessment about how you change a washer on a tap they then perform a dynamic risk assessment when they reach the site because
00:19:47 because you have to look at the environment you're working in and consider any additional risk as a result of that and there are certain activities that responsive repairs operatives undertake which require what
00:19:58 operatives undertake which require what we would call hot works so welding or something that would generate heat for which there is a permit process to ensure that it's properly controlled there's proper planning around it so a lot of steps are in place to make
00:20:11 so a lot of steps are in place to make sure that
00:20:11 sure that that they're there and the work that they undertake is done in a way that prevents any risk of fire and then on the completion of the work depending on the nature of it there may be a need to to reinstate fire
00:20:23 there may be a need to to reinstate fire stopping
00:20:23 stopping so that's you know if you've had to drill through uh a wall or a floor plate to make sure that the material that that plugs that gap is for preventative material put slightly differently were
00:20:35 material put slightly differently were you aware of the specific duties that the tmo was under as a result of the regulatory reform fire safety order of 2005. i'm not aware i'm not aware of the detail of that document
00:20:48 detail of that document was there any document that you recall that was either you received as you joined or you required to be created during your time as managing director which set out how specifically
00:21:00 director which set out how specifically repairs direct would assist the tmo discharge its fire safety obligations uh there was a tmo health and safety document and repairs direct had his own health and
00:21:11 repairs direct had his own health and safety documents as well as a principle the repairs direct adopted
00:21:18 adopted the tmos policies and practices we'll come on to this later mr webb but beyond what you already identified nothing else no now were you provided with any advice
00:21:29 no now were you provided with any advice whether from janice rowe or anyone else at the tmo about how to ensure that repairs carried out by repairs direct operatives did not compromise fire safety uh
00:21:40 did not compromise fire safety uh i don't recall being even the advice by janice ray on that subject no or anyone else from the tma not from the tmo no
00:21:47 tmo no um but the the staff with the represent were technically qualified um and we were working in specifications that were set by other aspects of the tmo so maybe
00:21:58 by other aspects of the tmo so maybe a better answer is that for example in replacing a door uh a flat entrance store we would work to a specification set by the tmo for a standard fire
00:22:09 set by the tmo for a standard fire resistance door known as an fd30 when you arrived at repairs direct was there any guidance policy procedure or process already in place that governed fire safety matters
00:22:23 that governed fire safety matters um not i can recall did you yourself receive any training on maintenance of fire safety systems and residential properties for example fire doors and the like um i
00:22:35 for example fire doors and the like um i didn't receive any specific training myself
00:22:37 myself however the staff that we would use to do any work on fire safety doors or smoke alarms would be technically technically qualified and we refreshed training to ensure that we maintained
00:22:49 training to ensure that we maintained integrity of things like fire doors did you
00:22:52 you receive any general fire safety training during your time as md of repairs direct um only as much as it would be for fire evacuation procedures in the in the
00:23:03 evacuation procedures in the in the office areas but nothing beyond that in terms of what your operatives were doing and the repairs they were carrying out not that i recall now now can we turn to the
00:23:16 health and safety regime that was in place at repairs direct and in particular a health and safety audit carried out by rob anderson of rhss which was carried out december 2014.
00:23:27 2014. now before i ask any questions if we can go to that document which is at
00:23:34 tm00863642-1
00:23:38 now first of all have you seen that document before i don't recall seeing it before do you remember
00:23:44 remember mr javo or anyone else making any reference
00:23:47 reference to a health and safety audit by rhss in handover discussions or any other discussions no i think mr javo made reference to his
00:23:58 no i think mr javo made reference to his organization's own review of health and safety
00:24:00 safety i don't recall a reference to this now if we can turn to the executive summary which is at page three
00:24:09 we see then the bottom part of the page for
00:24:13 for key findings and areas for attention and you'll see full review of the health and safety policy by competent person secondly training needs to be planned and organized thirdly risk assessments must be
00:24:25 thirdly risk assessments must be suitable and sufficient and fourthly inspection monitoring systems need to be defined and adhered to were you aware of any of those specific failings that had been identified in
00:24:36 failings that had been identified in this report when you started work at repairsdirect um if i just take a moment to read through of course
00:24:49 i was aware that we were not at the standard that we would need to be not as a result of this report but from um the comments from mr gervais and from my own assessments
00:25:01 my own assessments now if we can go further into this document and if we could first of all go to
00:25:05 to page 10
00:25:09 and if we see there in the first item at the top of the page under the heading board level commitment no details were available that spelt out board level commitment relevant to repairs direct it's not clear what role the board play
00:25:21 it's not clear what role the board play in terms of health and safety leadership and if health and safety is minuted at board meetings for repairs direct specifically with the setup of the company with kctmo being hazy in some respects this should be clearly documented now if
00:25:33 this should be clearly documented now if you hadn't seen this audit report until today did that criticism
00:25:38 criticism resonate with your experience at repairs direct no i wouldn't could we turn to page 19
00:25:47 and the second paragraph there which said an active training matrix was
00:25:58 which said an active training matrix was not located or acknowledged to confirm to the auditor who has or has not been trained in what and when this is major area concern in the event of civil or criminal proceedings for demonstrating competence through
00:26:09 for demonstrating competence through training again if you hadn't seen this order report did the criticism set out there resonate with your experience when you were
00:26:18 were repairs direct no there was a regular training regime in place and if we could finally turn to page 27
00:26:28 under the headings section 9 fire protection and prevention the first observation is this fire awareness training has not been provided to operatives was that still the case when you joined
00:26:39 was that still the case when you joined repairs direct um i couldn't say how how recently he had had fire awareness training um but fire awareness would be part of their training on an ongoing basis
00:26:51 their training on an ongoing basis now even if you weren't aware of this audit report and on the base of the answers you're giving it sounds and please shout if this is unfair or insufficiently nuanced that the deficiencies identified in this
00:27:03 that the deficiencies identified in this report had been remedied by the time you joined
00:27:05 joined some of them have been remedied they were not perhaps as robust as they could have been documented for in documentation for example but it was certainly stronger than this report would have indicated were you satisfied with the
00:27:17 indicated were you satisfied with the clarity of the health and safety leadership provided by the board during your time at repairsdirect i was yes could we now turn to minutes of an executive team meeting on the 23rd of march 2016
00:27:31 on the 23rd of march 2016 and if we could go to tmo zero
00:27:36 forward slash four
00:27:40 and if we could look at item 13 at the bottom of the page it's recorded there that you presented your vision for repairs direct and over the page and the third bullet point
00:27:51 the third bullet point you noted a gap for a health and safety manager for quality and environment needed
00:27:57 needed yes now what were your expectations of a health and safety manager at that time so march 2016 my expectation was to bring somebody in who would
00:28:08 who would provide governance assurance and continue training for health and safety practices
00:28:13 practices for the team to that provided protection for the staff residents and those in the proximity of work that we were doing but somebody who would also help us to achieve iso level accreditation
00:28:25 achieve iso level accreditation for health safety inc environment and quality
00:28:28 quality when you joined repairs direct who was uh fulfilling those responsibilities uh uh there was nobody in point in post and how long had that been the case uh it had been around a year i believe with a lot more
00:28:40 with a lot more um can we now turn to the minutes of repairs direct board meeting on the 10th of march 2016 so 13 days before this executive team meeting
00:28:49 meeting those minutes can be found at rbk trouble zero five nine two one three forward slash three if we can turn to item 8.1
00:29:02 you'll see it says there this graham webb informed the board that the health and safety manager position was still vacant
00:29:08 vacant he explained that the delay to recruit for the health and safety manager had been the need to fully ascertain the business needs and also build plan for accreditation on various iso schemes before recruiting
00:29:20 on various iso schemes before recruiting for a suitable candidate he assured the board that he intends to recruit by june 2016
00:29:29 what business needs did you have to ascertain before recruiting the business had lacked vision in terms of its direction of travel uh and that we wanted to be a responsive
00:29:41 uh and that we wanted to be a responsive repair business we wanted but the staff did did not understand whether we wanted to improve that service to residents or any other aspiration for the business so we were
00:29:52 aspiration for the business so we were needed to establish a strategy for the business to have that strategy approved by the management board the repairs direct board and the tmo board
00:30:01 board and then i wanted to be able to recruit a health and safety professional who could be part of that strategy so they needed to understand it and to complement that and by that i
00:30:12 and to complement that and by that i mean
00:30:12 mean somebody who can who has the experience to lead us towards the iso accreditation but also who can make health and safety training engaging and resonating
00:30:23 training engaging and resonating with blue collar workforces for whatever better phrase it can be a dry topic
00:30:30 dry topic you have to make it engaging you have to make it land and to find something you can do that is worth taking the extra time to find them just to spell it out why did you need to build a plan for accreditation
00:30:41 need to build a plan for accreditation uh on iso schemes before recruiting um a it's it's an endorsement that you're working to best practice which is clearly a good thing and gives us
00:30:51 us and gave the broad reassurance as well as uh the residents of the borough b we had an aspiration once we were fully delivering a service that was acceptable to
00:31:02 acceptable to the residents and the tenants of the borough that we'd like to offer a comparable service to leaseholders on a paid for basis who are living in often the same buildings
00:31:13 are living in often the same buildings having iso accreditation was in my view a base requirement to be able to offer a commercial paid for service thank you could we look at the final sentence in item 8.1 which says this the board was
00:31:25 8.1 which says this the board was assured that the risk presumably from not having health and safety management imposition had mitigated by ensuring that all workforce are fully trained on health and safety issues
00:31:36 and safety issues on the role first of all what do you mean by health and safety issues there so regular health and safety matters such as manual handling slips trips falls
00:31:50 slips trips falls the the need for hot works permits those kind of issues even for office staff around health and safety mats around the office but to make sure that that training was delivered again in an engaging way
00:32:01 delivered again in an engaging way so for example we engaged a contractor who didn't do a manual handling course on a projector in a classroom but took the people out to a van and loaded bars and doors in
00:32:12 and doors in in and out of vans which is far more relevant and engaging for that kind of workforce now it's notable that the list of issues you identified there did not include fire safety can we assume therefore that fire safety
00:32:24 can we assume therefore that fire safety was not caught in the mitigation measures um that were trained to health and i did make reference to hot works and permits so welding and roofing works and
00:32:35 permits so welding and roofing works and associated works like that which would have a fire safety element to them were included in that training so those specific elements of fire safety yes
00:32:47 now could i ask you to go to tm01001680 forward slash 19.
00:33:02 now you will not have seen this document before it's janice ray's mid-year performance review for 2016-2017 right and if you look at the third paragraph it says this
00:33:14 paragraph it says this further work to embed fire safety and then looking at the final line discussions with our diesel repairs direct
00:33:22 direct who include in toolbox talks and further discussion with sam and derek about the work of subcontractors now for the uninitiated uh what is a toolbox talk
00:33:33 uh what is a toolbox talk uh the toolbox talk is a team meeting most normally for the blue collar workforce uh um normally they had weekly and you may cover some
00:33:44 cover some uh business updates but what you will always always do is use the opportunity to do what at least one element of training at each event
00:33:52 event and you will pick a topic of the week and stuff will be trained on that and then they'll sign to confirm that they've received that training who provided that training so it was often provided by their team leaders or the line managers and
00:34:04 leaders or the line managers and sometimes by an external agency if that were appropriate to the subject that we were delivering um did the talks include training on fire safety issues in as much as we would touch on things
00:34:15 in as much as we would touch on things like hot works and issues like that yes it would
00:34:22 were you involved in or indeed aware of any discussions between janice ray sam hart and derek singleton about ensuring subcontractor work did not compromise fire safety
00:34:33 compromise fire safety yes and can you give the panel the gist of those discussions um we re as what i was there we recontracted our subcontractor framework
00:34:44 recontracted our subcontractor framework so the nature of responsive repairs is that the volume is always higher in the winter than it is in the summer and also there are certain activities where there is simply not enough demand
00:34:55 where there is simply not enough demand for you to employ a full-time resource on that task so you have to have a number of subcontractors on your books to do that when we recontacted our subcontractors
00:35:06 when we recontacted our subcontractors we not only were looking for obviously advantageous commercial terms but they were required to demonstrate that they had appropriate health and safety training documentation insurance is in place
00:35:19 documentation insurance is in place i know that was discussed between janice and sam and derek and also with shannon mckinnis who was the health and safety manager that i appointed in the business now i should have asked this as a preliminary question
00:35:30 this as a preliminary question am i right in thinking that sam hart was your commercial manager from august 2016 onwards
00:35:35 onwards he was indeed yes and that derek singleton was your operations manager from roughly the same time august 2016. that's correct yes now you um referred there to sharon mcinnis and she started her employment
00:35:47 mcinnis and she started her employment uh as repairs direct health safety environment quality manager on the 21st november 2016. shannon mcinnes yes yes and so that she started work some five or six months
00:35:59 she started work some five or six months after the deadline of june that you'd set yourself yes now while you're recruiting for that role who was responsible for ensuring that repairs direct complied with its health and safety obligations
00:36:10 health and safety obligations as a managed director that would fall to me
00:36:13 now could we go to tmo double zero eight six three
00:36:17 six three six five two forward slash one
00:36:21 now this is a document as you can see in title on its front page health and safety policy repairs direct you'll see in the bottom left version one bottom right the date february 2015
00:36:33 one bottom right the date february 2015 if we can turn over the page to page two
00:36:38 looking there it looks as if this document is a draft it is or seems to be a draft um first of all can you remember whether this was adopted and approved at any time
00:36:49 time um i don't recall it being um published no
00:36:54 no are you familiar with it have you seen this document before um i saw this document in as part of the preparation for today but i don't recall seeing it by the time i was there
00:37:03 was there so you can't help us as to who drafted it no i'm afraid i can't
00:37:10 can we assume therefore it wasn't distributed uh distributed to repairs direct operatives i i couldn't say it predates my time so i couldn't say whether it was distributed
00:37:21 say whether it was distributed in 2015 i didn't join until 2016.
00:37:30 now if we can not standing what you've said if we can just go to page five in this document in paragraph 1.4 and if that could be particular
00:37:41 and if that could be particular paragraph could be magnified briefly it says that the managing director is ultimately responsible for compliance with health and safety throughout the organization bearing in mind your most recent answer
00:37:52 bearing in mind your most recent answer i assume you'd agree with that absolutely
00:37:57 now could we go to a separate document now which is
00:38:03 one four tmo10016214 slash one this is a report as you can see from its front page entitled repairs to right health and safety management system gap analysis dated february 2017.
00:38:15 gap analysis dated february 2017. first of all have you seen that report before i have yes now sharon mckinnis sorry shannon mcinnes apologies um says that she wrote the report and
00:38:27 um says that she wrote the report and she says also in her witness statement i'll give the reference we don't need to go to it it's paragraph 60 of her statement which is at tmo double zero eight double nine six seven six four slash four she says
00:38:38 six seven six four slash four she says this that when she first joined repairs directs that's november 2016. she wanted to have a clear understanding of what policies and procedures have been implemented in the past and how these were operating in practice
00:38:50 how these were operating in practice the gap analysis report was therefore produced to help her formulate a health and safety strategy going forward now was the health and safety strategy at this point i.e february 2017.
00:39:03 at this point i.e february 2017. um we would we would have fallen under the umbrella of the tier of the tmos health and safety strategy though i recognized that we needed to have one for repairs direct because the nature of the
00:39:14 repairs direct because the nature of the work that the staff did fundamentally differed from those in primarily administrative roles when shannon first started i asked her to complete a gap analysis so i could understand the fundamental
00:39:26 so i could understand the fundamental differences between where we were and where we needed to be and so it's a result
00:39:31 result as of your direction that this gap analysis was prepared it was yes now was there a formal decision either in your time or to the extent to which you know before your time
00:39:42 time that the repairs direct would adopt the tmo's health and safety practices or was it simply an informal practice absent any specific health and safety strategy for repairs direct
00:39:54 safety strategy for repairs direct itself
00:39:54 itself there was a formal agreement that we would adopt all tmo policies and procedures unless there were a fundamental reason why the activities of repairs direct required a standalone document
00:40:06 required a standalone document and did that agreement was that agreement reached before you joined or after you joined um i don't recall it was in place before i joined but it was made very clear i was part of that conversation when i
00:40:17 i was part of that conversation when i got there and i was very clear that that was
00:40:19 was the right position to be and so it happened fairly soon after you joined i believe so yes so the first quarter of 2016 or thereabouts of that order thank you now if we could
00:40:31 of that order thank you now if we could uh turn to page three in this document an
00:40:33 an item 4.3 and it's the first paragraph really that deals with training and it sets out there this health and safety training is a legal requirement and repairs direct is falling short of
00:40:44 and repairs direct is falling short of its obligation and if we go down to the fourth paragraph on this under this section on this page there is limited evidence of training certificates for operatives and contractors
00:40:55 contractors and no evidence of certificates for temporary workers mandatory training requirements have not been established or frequencies for renewal defined or monitored
00:41:04 monitored now in light of your assurance to the repairs direct board on the 10th of march 2016 the risk of not having a health and safety manager had been appropriately mitigated
00:41:14 mitigated by ensuring that the workforce had been trained on health and safety matters can you explain this unambiguous finding um i felt and i recall having this conversation with shannon
00:41:26 conversation with shannon i felt that she'd taken a particularly um
00:41:29 um negative view um that often the training was occurring but what was not occurring was the paperwork to evidence it however i did agree that for temporary staff we may
00:41:40 staff we may bring on um plumbing staff that she'll notice for to cover absence through example that we were not
00:41:47 were not robust enough in providing um training before they went out and perform live live jobs
00:41:53 live jobs now what steps were taken to remedy the deficiency that uh ms mcinnis had identified here i can't recall the exact action as a result of this gap analysis
00:42:04 as a result of this gap analysis shannon worked with derek singleton the operations manager to establish an action plan and her i he and sam would review that in our weekly operations meetings
00:42:16 in our weekly operations meetings to to make sure we're making progress on closing the gaps in the plan can you remember specifically what was done to ensure that all training was appropriately recorded um i can't recall sorry
00:42:30 um i can't recall sorry now if we can turn over the page to paragraph 4.4 and the second paragraph under that heading which relates to contractor management um it says this currently there is a procedure for vetting contractors but no
00:42:42 contractors but no formal monitoring or inspection of health and safety management or work practices
00:42:46 practices thereafter did you accept at the time that there was no formal arrangements for monitoring inspection uh no i didn't you disagreed with that i disagree and on what basis did you
00:42:57 disagree and on what basis did you disagree with that statement so um our contractors um uh a when we were signing them up to work for us we would review their health and safety policies and documents
00:43:08 and safety policies and documents and training records um we would also um inspect their work on an ad hoc basis so
00:43:15 so unannounced visits by supervisors uh or by our surveyors to look at the work in practice and then post were
00:43:22 post were a post completion of the work we would also inspect um to make sure the work will be done to a satisfactory standard and discuss the work with the resident again
00:43:32 again mindful of your previous answer was the issue here that those processes weren't formally recorded and that was shannon mechanises gripe the post inspections were recorded the
00:43:43 the post inspections were recorded the ad hoc inspections weren't so that may have been the issue
00:43:48 now in respect of this report shannon mckinnis said in paragraph 16 of her statement
00:43:54 statement and the reference we don't need to go to it is tmo double zero eight double nine six
00:43:58 six seven six forward slash four she says this i cannot recall the specific actions taken following the production of my report i did not feel health and safety was a priority at repairs direct
00:44:09 priority at repairs direct this was one of the reasons why i eventually left health and safety concerns were more talk than action do you agree with that assessment uh no i'm disappointed to hear that that's the that's the
00:44:20 that's the that's the statement that she's made now on what basis would you disagree with her um i appointed a health and safety manager into a role that been vacant for some time
00:44:29 some time because health and safety was a fundamental concern for me i wanted to be sure that whilst there was health and safety support from the tmo
00:44:37 tmo from january and her team we had somebody within my own team who looked at the very specific circumstances in which my team worked and the risks that that presented to them
00:44:48 them to other residents and to the general public
00:44:51 public um it's so i i think that fundamentally disagree with her with a suggestion that it was all talk and no action uh could we turn to tm0084
00:45:03 uh could we turn to tm0084 2 8
00:45:14 now as you see from the torrential addressee list janice ray distributed papers for the tmo health and safety committee meeting on the 13th of june 2017. so a day before
00:45:27 the 13th of june 2017. so a day before the fire
00:45:27 the fire you're not named as one of the recipients but shannon mckinnis and derek singleton are now this email attached report entitled health and safety progress report repairs direct
00:45:39 report repairs direct and that can be found at tmo double zero eight four five three seven eight [Music]
00:45:50 do you recall seeing that document in june
00:45:53 june 2017
00:45:59 please shout out if you'd like to scroll through it to refresh your memory i don't particularly recall seeing it a little bit some time ago so i i may have done but i don't recall it
00:46:10 have done but i don't recall it um would you be able to assist the panel as to who
00:46:14 as to who would have written the health and safety progress report for repairs direct would it have been miss mckinnis shannon would have written that absolutely sean mcinnes
00:46:21 mcinnes and were these types of report regularly produced yes and if so is it therefore likely that you would have read it at the time it's it's possible yes
00:46:32 yes shannon would have produced a regular update and i would have read that is it slightly more than possible you've reemphasized the panel your commitment to health and safety given this deals with
00:46:41 with health and safety progress is it more likely than possible that you would have read it yes could we turn to paragraph uh or rather a separate document which is
00:46:54 tmo-00845378 forward slash one
00:47:03 i think that's the one we've seen on the screen sorry apologies yes now we can see it paragraph one it lists various health and safety procedures um at the bottom of the page and then it goes on to say in the final paragraph
00:47:15 goes on to say in the final paragraph additional operational procedures that are needed to ensure proper health and safety compliance will be required and if we and we see it paragraph 1.2 it records the general health and safety
00:47:26 it records the general health and safety policy specific to repairs direct has been drafted yes and then we've got a paragraph 1.32 operational procedures adapted from tmo documents
00:47:37 adapted from tmo documents now are you able to assist the panels to why at this stage a new health and safety policy had been drafted um i can't specifically say why at this stage
00:47:47 stage um i do believe i do recall that we of all the policies that the tmo had we did believe that repairs director required a health and safety policy of its own looking at paragraph 1.3 of the two
00:47:59 looking at paragraph 1.3 of the two procedures set out there represent the sum total of the health and safety policies and procedures that were in place just before the fire in addition to the health and safety policy
00:48:12 health and safety policy i believe that the the repair switch health and safety policy there had been one um before this i believe i'd signed one earlier early in my time there um i can understand why we would want um
00:48:26 um i can understand why we would want um operational opportunities and guidance on risk assessment and excellent reporting
00:48:30 reporting but i i couldn't answer any more specifically to what you're asking to the extent you can is it therefore uh correct to surmise uh that there was no operational
00:48:42 surmise uh that there was no operational procedure
00:48:43 procedure that specifically governed repairs to fire safety systems including fire doors and the like uh no that's not correct
00:48:53 are you saying there was a written document which govern those matters are you saying they're informal arrangements that govern those matters so it was standard practice and i believe it was documented for example that if if my staff who
00:49:05 for example that if if my staff who would have been carpenters for example were looking at a flat front entrance door which would have been a an fd 30 rated fire door that they were expected to only repair like for
00:49:16 were expected to only repair like for like so they wouldn't drill new holes it would impact the integrity
00:49:21 integrity of the fire resistance they would only replace
00:49:24 replace like for like for like so door furniture letterboxes hinges whatever and if it were not possible to do so that they would be required to replace the door with another fire door
00:49:36 the door with another fire door and our systems only allowed them to purchase an fd30 door to replace that so those those documentations were in existence
00:49:44 existence and were a specification from the tmo thank you now if we turn over the page paragraph 2.2 it says there under the heading health and safety management armada
00:49:56 and safety management armada training provided a two-day course to repairs direct management team supervisors and quantity surveyors the objective of this training was to provide managers with training on fundamentals of health and safety
00:50:08 fundamentals of health and safety did you attend that training i don't believe so uh even if you didn't attend are you aware or not
00:50:16 or not uh whether it covered fire safety i i i don't recall um could we turn to
00:50:24 tm00870929
00:50:28 now this is an untitled document dated 2017
00:50:31 2017 the date appears from the file name which appears to refer to repairs direct health and safety duties sharon shannon mckinnis uh says in her statement
00:50:41 statement and it's paragraphs twenty to twenty one tmo double zero eight double nine six seven six four seven we don't need to go to it that she was the author and it was an unfinished draft which was neither
00:50:53 unfinished draft which was neither published nor adopted
00:50:58 now looking at that um is your position still that there was a health and safety policy in place before the fire i believe there was yes
00:51:11 now can we now turn to a separate topic which is coordination with the tmo on matters of health and safety including fire safety now could we go to double four tm0084441 five one forward slash five
00:51:26 now these are minutes of a tmo health and safety committee meeting on the 31st of july 2015 so before you start it and it's recorded that item 11 we see
00:51:37 that item 11 we see there under the heading repairs direct
00:51:42 that barbara matthews advised in the second line that there should be quotes common policies and procedures for both casey tmo
00:51:49 tmo and that janice ray should have audit rights
00:51:53 rights over repairs direct health and safety systems now when you started in january 2016
00:52:00 your understanding is that there were common health and safety uh policies and procedures in place yes that's fair that's correct now do you recall whether janice ray in fact had audit rights
00:52:12 fact had audit rights over repairs direct health and safety obligations and their performance i don't recall that that was a stated um right but um should janice have asked to have reviewed any of our activity
00:52:25 to have reviewed any of our activity then
00:52:26 then i would not have had an objection to that do you remember janice ray seeking to exercise her audit rights i don't recall no
00:52:36 what was your understanding of janus rey's role in relation to repair's direct health and safety duties and their performance um janice ray provided the
00:52:50 um janice ray provided the the the tmo view we we sought to adhere to that
00:52:54 to that as close as we could and she was also a very useful uh point of conversation if there were some debate over a technical requirement so if they were for example if the
00:53:05 so if they were for example if the assets and regeneration team were looking to change the specification there was often a conversation between them um our operational team and janice in terms of
00:53:16 terms of the nature of that um the nature of the change the operational impact of it our ability to maintain it for example do you remember janice ray ever been her advice and guidance ever been sought in
00:53:27 advice and guidance ever been sought in relation to a fire safety matter
00:53:31 to the best of your knowledge um not to bless my knowledge i mean we would we spoke with janice on a regular basis on a range of issues
00:53:42 basis on a range of issues now on the 19th of january 2016 so a week or so after you started work at repairsdirect you attended a meeting of the tmo's health and safety committee um now is it right that you are a
00:53:54 um now is it right that you are a regular attendee of that meeting yes not every meeting but
00:53:59 but but i did attend it on a regular basis um why did you attend the tmo's health and safety committee meeting because it allowed us to share repairs direct
00:54:07 direct health and safety performance with them and if there are any learning available from them we could adopt that within repairs direct if you weren't able to attend who would attend on your behalf as it were uh shannon mckinnis or derek's and or
00:54:20 uh shannon mckinnis or derek's and or derek singleton my operations why don't you
00:54:22 you now if we could go to the minutes of that meeting which are at tm010012670 and if we go to the second page in item
00:54:33 and if we go to the second page in item 1.11
00:54:35 1.11 and you'll see there it's minuted mb i think is martin barr is that right possible had agreed to look at procedures for reviewing insight reports clarifying what is
00:54:47 insight reports clarifying what is outstanding and what priority these have and acknowledge the need to ensure there is an effective escalation procedure for esa's reporting health and safety issues mb had confirmed that he would be meeting
00:54:58 had confirmed that he would be meeting with olivia hutcherson on the 20th of january
00:55:01 january and with gw presumably you the following week to discuss this he will then produce a draft escalation procedure sj presumably sasha jevons asked for clarification on time scale
00:55:13 asked for clarification on time scale janice ray to request mb aims to bring draft to next meeting can you remember now whether you met martin barr to discuss this particular issue
00:55:22 issue uh i i can't recall whether i met him to discuss a particular issue in my first few weeks i met with many internal managers on a range of topics so so you can't remember whether there's any particular
00:55:33 remember whether there's any particular outcome
00:55:34 outcome i can't remember this meeting in in particular now was there an equivalent procedure for repairs direct operatives and supervisors who identified health and safety issues during jobs to escalate or report those issues yes
00:55:46 to escalate or report those issues yes there was
00:55:47 there was and what was that procedure so depending on the on the nature of the issue uh uh at its um that it was most risk at highest recently like if they
00:55:58 risk at highest recently like if they encountered a a dangerous or aggressive resident where they felt that they were in danger they were empowered to walk away um if they were asked to if they encountered a piece of work that where they felt um that doing that piece
00:56:09 where they felt um that doing that piece of work
00:56:10 of work created risks to them or others they were they were about to walk away thank you um if they discovered an issue that
00:56:17 that needed to be notified they would either call the planner so one of the people in the office and notify them of that or they'll talk to their supervisor and then depending on the nature of the severity of the matter someone might
00:56:28 severity of the matter someone might immediately attend or it would be arranged for a follow-up to happen thank you
00:56:33 you on the 10th of march 2016 you appen you attended a meeting of the repairs direct board
00:56:38 board and the minute can be found at rbk trouble zero five nine two one three forward slash one
00:56:49 there we go we can see you as a second on the list of attendees and if we turn over to page two and item 5.4 and the second paragraph
00:57:00 and the second paragraph it says there the board then discussed the policy needs of the company so that's repairs direct graham webb suggested the company could adopt the parent company's policies as a way to strive to attain the same standards
00:57:12 standards now is that uh really the thinking that underpinned the agreement to adopt other standards that you refer to earlier on yes brought these were broader world war
00:57:23 yes brought these were broader world war iii standards it made entire sense to adopt those unless then there was a material different to the work that we were undertaking and do you remember on analysis whether
00:57:34 and do you remember on analysis whether there were any material differences that prevented you adopting a tmo policy and the only one that i can recall is the health and safety policy
00:57:44 and as part of those discussions was fire safety ever discussed as being one of those material differences that required a bespoke repairs direct solution
00:57:51 solution i don't recall that being discussed now now
00:57:54 now on the 8th of april 2016 janice ray emailed you a number of documents but included her fire
00:58:01 fire safety strategy review and that was sent in advance of the tmo's health and safety committee meeting on the 12th of april 2016. now the review included a current version of the tmos fire safety strategy
00:58:13 tmos fire safety strategy which was debate which was uh dated november 2013. now can you remember whether you read the review and the fire safety strategy
00:58:24 and the fire safety strategy and so this was a document bundle in advance of a health and safety meeting yes in april 2016. yes it was a matter of routine i would read all the documents in advance of the meeting
00:58:35 documents in advance of the meeting did you understand the fire safety strategy to be one of those common policies uh shared by
00:58:41 by tmo and repairs direct i don't recall particularly but i would imagine it would be so yes you don't recall though any specific discussion as to whether that strategy applied or would be adopted by repairs
00:58:53 applied or would be adopted by repairs direct i don't recall any discussions whether there was a need for repairs direct to have a different policy
00:59:01 now on the 17th of january 2017 you were sent a report by guy sharma a senior auditor for rbkc which was entitled final report repairs
00:59:13 which was entitled final report repairs direct systems review now that that email can be found at rbk trouble zero six zero one four eight
00:59:23 so just to remind you of what was sent and when now can you remember why was that review carried out so guys sharma was part of the internal
00:59:36 so guys sharma was part of the internal audit teams i recall from rbkc they had a rolling program of auditing different aspects of the tmos performance and repairs direct
00:59:47 direct featured on that at a regular interval uh
00:59:50 uh and he would come in a review and and therefore from time to time he would come and review our systems of work um and and to ensure that data that we were reporting was
01:00:01 data that we were reporting was independent and accurate and accurately reflected what we the service that was being delivered thank you if we can go to rbk trouble zero six zero one four nine forward slash eighteen and
01:00:13 four nine forward slash eighteen and item
01:00:14 item seven we see there the management action plan
01:00:17 plan governs repair quality monitoring and the review recommended and we see there in the far right hand column that the selection of
01:00:28 right hand column that the selection of jobs for post inspection should be random
01:00:31 random and automated and in the management response it records that the post inspection were completed by rd supervisors and repairs team surveyors now can you remember now what percentage of repairs
01:00:44 remember now what percentage of repairs were inspected after the work had been done
01:00:48 done um i believe it was between 10 and 15 percent
01:00:51 percent and was that a prescribed sample amount or was yes
01:00:58 what's the approach to post-inspecting fast safety repairs any different to other repairs no what's consideration ever given to post inspecting a higher percentage of fire safety repairs or
01:01:10 safety repairs or targeting or targeting them specifically for post inspection no
01:01:18 now can we now look at the process for carrying out responsive fire safety repairs and a particular process for actioning fire safety repairs
01:01:26 repairs raised by residents or estate staff now full repairs raised by residents and tmo state staff was any training or guidance provided to repairs direct staff
01:01:37 repairs direct staff on how to identify a repair that might affect
01:01:40 affect fire safety so any um fire any um fire related repair which was incentivized to the regular estate inspections or
01:01:52 regular estate inspections or identified to janice ray's health and safety team um the repair request on our computer system was raised by janice's team and it would and the job would have a
01:02:03 and it would and the job would have a prefix fra so it was fire related works um we uh we then had uh uh shannon mckinnis in fact his health and safety manager would have oversight over all of those
01:02:15 would have oversight over all of those repairs to make sure they were completed in a timely way um and to make sure that she liaised with janice on any reason for any delay in that process and so in short there was a
01:02:26 process and so in short there was a process by which the tmos health and safety team was notified of a fire safety repair absolutely thank you now if we can go to tm0101268
01:02:38 if we can go to tm0101268 forward slash four and this is the tmos fire safety strategy of november 2013 and we see there a paragraph five at the bottom of the page it sets out the management arrangements for fire safety
01:02:50 management arrangements for fire safety and paragraph 5.1 if we go over the page that's the first paragraph of penultimate sentence says that repairs
01:03:01 that repairs raised to fire doors self-closers etc are given priority sorry the text is somewhat dense but it's in that top paragraph at the top of the page did repairs direct give
01:03:14 top of the page did repairs direct give priority to repairs to fire doors and self-closers so um every repair whether it was was given a degree of priorities whether it was routine urgent or emergency
01:03:25 it was routine urgent or emergency and that priority for the when the health and safety team raised that repair they would set the priority to it and that would dictate the timescale that we had to complete the repair
01:03:36 and i suppose asking the question again just
01:03:40 just emphasizing it was specifically directed towards
01:03:44 towards fire doors and self-closures were those routinely given for example an urgent rating or are they treated as routine or indeed were they treated as an emergency so if uh from from our recollections they would certainly not have been treated as
01:03:55 would certainly not have been treated as routine
01:03:56 routine but the priority would have been set by janice rayne her team when they raised the task
01:04:00 the task not by my team are you able to give the panel a gist from your experience of whether
01:04:06 whether such works were rated as urgent for example or emergency um it would depend on the nature of the deficiency if the fire door was missing that would absolutely expect that to be the emergency and a
01:04:17 expect that to be the emergency and a same-day response um if it was easing and adjusting because it was banging as it closed it may have been um regarded as an urgent response which i think from memory was a three or five
01:04:28 think from memory was a three or five day
01:04:28 day fix and following on that was going to be my next question in terms of emergency what was the time requirement for completion of those 24 hours now can i ask you about the process for actioning repairs arising
01:04:40 process for actioning repairs arising out of fire risk assessments or lfb inspections now if we go to tmo double zero eight six zero eight two four forward slash one
01:04:50 slash one we have here email correspondence on the fifth of september 2016 between derek singleton so your ops manager
01:04:58 manager chelsea rickus a repairs direct service administrator and sam hart who's the commercial manager who we've discussed before and it is primarily concerned with
01:05:09 concerned with the allocation of fire risk assessment repairs uh to gone now first of all who or what is gone g-o-n-i gionee were a sub-contractor that we used for certain works
01:05:22 used for certain works now within repairs direct who would usually decide whether a fire safety repair should be carried out in house or should be sub-contracted if if there was a request for any work of any nature
01:05:33 was a request for any work of any nature to be subcontracted the commercial team had to give approval for that because it was this obviously expenditure related to that and what criteria in broad terms were applied by the commercial team before
01:05:45 the commercial team before subcontracting happened uh it would be a a balance of looking at the urgency of the work
01:05:51 the work whether the skill sets existed within our team
01:05:54 our team um how the current workload on our team if the skill set existed um or whether it would simply be more effective
01:06:02 effective to outsource that work to a competent supplier so it would be someone in the commercial team for example who decided whether a
01:06:09 whether a repairs direct operative had the requisite fire safety skills to repair a fire door
01:06:13 fire door so the repairs direct operatives had um were trained in whatever skill sets their skills were noted on our system we knew what the skill sets were um uh the planners the planning team
01:06:25 um uh the planners the planning team would be able to advise if somebody had um the necessary skill set so a carpenter can can re-hang a door uh be in a fight or any other
01:06:33 any other kind of door if we have a large package of
01:06:36 of doors to be fixed in the same location it can be easier and more efficient to give that to a subcontractor you can dedicate a team just to walk through the entire area and clear all the tasks at the same time thank you now just
01:06:48 at the same time thank you now just looking at the email from derek singleton which is the top of this page and looking particular at the second paragraph
01:06:56 paragraph um he says it's obviously entitled fra works he said in the final sentence the only thing i'm not sure that they igony would be able to do
01:07:05 to do is the fire stopping as we may need this to be certificated so looking at really from the different yes
01:07:12 yes the prism how would repairs direct satisfy itself that subcontractors were capable of doing fire safety related work such as fire stopping so when a subcontractor was being
01:07:23 so when a subcontractor was being signed up as a to work for us we would look at the skill sets that they had we would take references from previous employers um and we would look at the qualifications of their team
01:07:35 qualifications of their team there are certain activities which are obviously more aren't more prescribed fire stopping work is a heavily prescribed piece of activity as you would imagine and therefore tend to be much more specialist suppliers that you use for
01:07:46 specialist suppliers that you use for fire stopping work was anyone within repairs direct specifically responsible for monitoring the progress of repairs arising out of fra actions yes shannon mckinnis
01:07:58 now could i go to cst quadruple 0-2174
01:08:06 and we see roughly halfway down that page peter madison emailed alex bosman and yourself and theresa brown copying in janus ray on the 21st of october 2016
01:08:19 on the 21st of october 2016 and the subject matter was karl stokes's inspections before lfb audits of grenfell tower barrandon walk
01:08:26 walk and nine coalville square and the email says this attached are the results of carl stokes's pre-inspections of grenfell barrandon and colville i have asked alex to coordinate action
01:08:37 i have asked alex to coordinate action within assets and regeneration that needs to be progressed in the next couple of days i've also asked him to check in with graham to ensure that responsive repair issues are in hand going forward i've agreed with janis
01:08:48 going forward i've agreed with janis that representatives from a r r d housing management will be invited to attend inspections with carl stokes and adrian this will help ensure that there is a clear and shared understanding of
01:08:59 clear and shared understanding of standards and actions required using carl and agent's expertise to raise awareness with our staff it will also be a good way of ensuring that ownership of actions is pushed down to the right level
01:09:10 to the right level i also hope that it will help develop a better understanding of the responsibilities for each team and improve the communication when matters need escalation now what was your role
01:09:21 was your role generally in relation to monitoring responsive repairs arising from carl stokes's inspections and in particular his fras we would have handled those in the same way as we would with fra
01:09:33 in the same way as we would with fra related work but i do recall that as a result of this we used to send one of our supervisors to accompany these tours so that we had a very clear understanding of
01:09:44 a very clear understanding of the exact location the exact issue and how
01:09:48 how we and how we needed to resolve it and that was routinely done was it yes and did you find that it achieved the aim
01:09:55 the aim that mr madison set out for this exercise i.e better understanding of the responsibilities of each team and an improvement in communication i believe so yes
01:10:07 was there a concern at this time that fra
01:10:11 fra actions and the standards required to close them out satisfactorily were not clearly understood by those carrying out the repairs i don't believe so no
01:10:23 now can i turn to the topic of the backlog of responsive repairs and in particular the fra responsive repairs
01:10:31 repairs and for this purpose can we now go to back rather to the minutes of the tmo health and safety committee which is the first one you attended on the 19th of january 2016. and they
01:10:42 on the 19th of january 2016. and they can be found at tmo one double zero one two six seven zero forward slash four
01:10:50 and we see it top of the page item 3.1 in respect of fra actions it's recorded that jw
01:10:58 that jw and bm so janice ray and barbara matthews
01:11:01 matthews highlighted the main point of the fra summaries in particular it was emphasized that significant progress had been made with completing the backlog of outstanding actions by contract management and by our diesel
01:11:12 by contract management and by our diesel repairs direct now holding that there if we can go to a separate document which is tmo100 double one nine one zero
01:11:29 this is the summary of fras that was submitted for the purposes of this meeting on the 19th of january 2016. and we can see that there were 172 looking at
01:11:42 that there were 172 looking at responsive repairs 172 outstanding it's in the penultimate box from the bottom and reading across there are 18 partially completed responsive repair actions and if we go
01:11:53 responsive repair actions and if we go over the page
01:11:57 we see that the outstanding actions are broken down in relation to their age and we see 54 responsive repairs that are four to six
01:12:08 responsive repairs that are four to six month year or years old four to six months old 57 over seven months and 55 in excess of 12 months now this was your first meeting your
01:12:20 now this was your first meeting your first health and safety meeting i should say
01:12:23 say were you concerned by the number and the age of the outstanding actions that are summarized here in this document of course yes and what was your particular concern
01:12:34 particular concern looking at the numbers uh the the age profile concerns me there are legitimate reasons why some work can take a prolonged period to resolve but there seemed to be a problem
01:12:47 resolve but there seemed to be a problem in in closing out in the center of property and closing out older repairs now in her evidence barbara matthews cited as a optimum number
01:12:57 number something between 10 and 20. now given your experience mindful of the extent of the tmo stock was there an optimum number of outstanding actions
01:13:08 outstanding actions that you considered to be reasonable or tolerable
01:13:13 tolerable well i mean your optimum number is zero of course um i i wouldn't want to put a target on it because any any target that's set other than zero is almost an acceptance of something being
01:13:24 almost an acceptance of something being substandard um but certainly i wasn't happy with the volume
01:13:29 volume and the age of some of these were you told why there was such a backlog particularly backlog of old actions
01:13:37 actions um i did uh i do record um doing some investigation into that um many of the um the properties on the rpkc
01:13:48 the properties on the rpkc portfolio uh of some age almost every fire door is bestowed is bespoke so everything has to be made from scratch which obviously prolongs the period of time takes to do it
01:14:00 period of time takes to do it there were also a number where perhaps the fire doors were being warped from a leak to give you an example and a leak in a and their high storage block can take some time to track
01:14:12 block can take some time to track it can leak through many many flaws before it actually reaches the point where you find it and it causes the problem and they are very very difficult to track back did your investigations allay the concerns you originally held when you
01:14:24 concerns you originally held when you saw
01:14:25 saw the raw data as summarized for the purposes of the health and safety committee
01:14:28 committee no we still need to do better
01:14:32 can you remember that when you joined the tmo whether there was an action a plan in place for for ensuring that the number and particularly the number of old actions was substantially reduced
01:14:44 was substantially reduced uh no there was no one at the time i joined
01:14:47 joined uh repairs direct no one within repairs direct was owning the fra actions so that's one of the first things i put in place as a result of this meeting was to have somebody who could own them uh and fight
01:14:58 uh and fight to make sure they were they were being pursued and who became the owner so initially i used a gentleman who was the customer service manager um whose name escapes me forgive me
01:15:09 um whose name escapes me forgive me um and then when shannon mckinnon has joined us uh i transferred that responsibility to her so as of november 2016 it was just mckinnis yes now if we can uh go back to the minutes
01:15:21 now if we can uh go back to the minutes themselves which is at one double zero one two six seven zero forward slash four if we get to item three point two it's recorded there that pms that's peter
01:15:33 recorded there that pms that's peter madison
01:15:33 madison asked for a copy of the detail behind this report so the one we've just been looking at peter madison noted that the system should be more robust to ensure actions are escalated if they are out of time or allocated to staff who are no
01:15:45 time or allocated to staff who are no longer with it with the organization gw graham webb advised the process will be reviewed to avoid outstanding historic actions and so the review is that the investigation that you've
01:15:57 is that the investigation that you've just given the detail of exactly um so i went away to look at look into this list and create and put in place that process while we had an owner within the business
01:16:10 um could we now turn to a separate document which is tmo double zero
01:16:16 zero eight four three six double four are we going to a new we're not there are four further questions on this topic which just for the
01:16:25 the sake i'd ask cleanliness i'd like to get finished so that's thank you sir it shouldn't take us beyond half 11. thank you so this is a health safety and facilities team update from the fourth
01:16:36 facilities team update from the fourth of february 2016 um prepared by janice ray i think now she reported you'll see it item three um fra in health and safety actions
01:16:47 actions significant progress made with volume of actions outstanding for repairs direct and contract management barbara and i have met with sasha pete alex and graham webb to look at the detail of the actions being raised and how each are to be
01:16:58 being raised and how each are to be progressed accepted that there is no need to continue with these meetings but just to identify the key trends have now agreed an improved procedure with repairs direct which should enable work to be progressed in a tiny manner
01:17:10 work to be progressed in a tiny manner once backlog cleared now do you remember agreeing an improved procedure with janice ray i i don't remember the specifics of it
01:17:21 i i don't remember the specifics of it i'm not surprised by the comment but i don't remember the specifics so you won't be able to help the panels to what uh the particular arrangements were i'm sorry i can't
01:17:35 now it recorded here that in effect the procedure would only be effective once the backlog was cleared what did you do
01:17:43 you do to ensure the backlog was cleared from the repair's direct angle um when i joined repository i have forgiven i cannot remember the volume of fra actions
01:17:54 volume of fra actions once i started um it was only an improving trend but but wasn't within what we would have regarded as being an acceptable parameter so um uh if we were reducing the number we
01:18:07 uh if we were reducing the number we were reducing the age profile um but we weren't yet where we wanted to be
01:18:14 and would you monitor the backlog routinely uh yes so it would come up in my monthly management teams and it would also be discussed at the health and safety committee chaired by barbara matthews
01:18:25 committee chaired by barbara matthews am i right in understanding that um
01:18:30 timely completion of fra actions was not the subject of a key performance indicator it was not on of on our headline key performance indicators now
01:18:41 performance indicators now can you help given that the fra backlog was
01:18:45 was had clearly been a long running issue are you able to assist the panel as to why
01:18:49 why it's the reduction of that backlog wasn't the subject of a kpi so our headline kpis and my experience in managing large operational businesses
01:19:01 operational businesses if you have more than eight headline kpis it's very difficult to actually um absorb the content they will give you the general sense of direction for the business
01:19:13 direction for the business if something is causing a problem it will generally cause one of those kpis if you choose the right ones to indicate there is a problem behind it so a prolonged period of time to close out an fra action
01:19:24 out an fra action would have extended the average the number of days to complete repairs which was one of our key performance indicators so if that if that kpi had started to become adverse
01:19:35 become adverse that would prompt us to look into the background beneath it but it wasn't part of the
01:19:39 of the the core eight kpi that we would report on with responsive repairs thank you why was it accepted that there was no need to continue meetings about uh outstanding fra actions from my
01:19:50 uh outstanding fra actions from my recollection we were making good progress
01:19:52 progress and the direction travel was good now can we turn to the fra action statistics that were produced for the tmos health and safety committee
01:20:00 committee in january 2017. so a year after you joined
01:20:04 joined and if we go to tmo one double zero one five
01:20:07 five nine six three and if we look at responsive repair which again penultimate uh row at the bottom we see there are 11 outstanding and five partially complete
01:20:19 outstanding and five partially complete responsive repair actions now how had repairs direct um achieved uh such a reduction in the outstanding repairs
01:20:29 repairs through those actions that i've described having real ownership and somebody championing each of those repairs and ensuring that it was completely completed on time
01:20:40 that it was completely completed on time and to the right quality can you remember whether most the reduction had been achieved before shannon mckinnis joined her uh we were making good progress before she joined uh in november and then obviously this
01:20:52 uh in november and then obviously this was what i think two months later thank you uh could we turn to tm01021548 are the minutes of the tmos health and safety committee meeting
01:21:03 safety committee meeting on the 13th of june 2017.
01:21:10 now you're not recorded as attending but if we turn to page 3 and item 3.3
01:21:18 we see there it's recorded janice ray advised that she had collated all the responsive repair items that were currently not complete and had provided derek singleton with a spreadsheet identifying the details of
01:21:29 spreadsheet identifying the details of each
01:21:29 each and the repair stage it had stopped at derrick had agreed to investigate advise and progress these works sm must be shannon mcinnis agreed to raise with derek and report back to janet ray
01:21:41 with derek and report back to janet ray by 23rd of june can we take it from that the reduction of fra responsive repair actions achieved in january 2017 had not been sustained
01:21:50 sustained in the first half of 2017. i couldn't say from that minute now if we stay in this document but go to page
01:22:00 to page sorry stay on page three and look at item three point sorry 3.4 over the page
01:22:07 and it says hc i'm sorry if we go back so it's my fault go back to 3.3 and we see at the bottom hc raised concern that he had witnessed
01:22:19 hc raised concern that he had witnessed a number of missed appointments lately and other delays in completing responsive uh works and that he had raised this with pj philip bm asked sm
01:22:31 philip bm asked sm uh to take this back and raise with her colleagues now hc i think is shamshoon is that right
01:22:38 right yes i would imagine so and did shannon mckinnis communicate this information to you
01:22:43 you uh i don't recall her writing this to me particularly no are you able to help with why appointments were being missed and there were other delays in completing responsive repair works responsive repairs are um
01:22:56 responsive repairs are um largely predictable but sometimes when you go to fix what you believe is a dripping tap it turns out to be a reverse pipe behind a wall and so what do you think is a 30-minute appointment turned into a two-hour
01:23:07 appointment turned into a two-hour appointment um it was standard practice to do what we called dynamic rescheduling so our system allowed us to change appointments so who which staff went to which appointment during the day
01:23:18 which appointment during the day but some days um the world plots against you and you just can't get to every appointment on time sadly thank you sir i've come to the end of that particular topic right well that is a convenient point of
01:23:30 right well that is a convenient point of which to have a breakthrough we're going to have a short break now we'll um come back please at 20 to 12 and then we'll resume then and i have to ask you please not to talk to anyone
01:23:41 ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it while you're out of the room of course sir all right thank you would you like to give the option please thank you
01:23:58 thank you 20 to 12. thanks sir
01:40:25 would you ask mr webb to come back in
01:40:34 please
01:40:41 all right mr webb you ready to carry on good thank you thank you yes when you're really mister thanks sir mr webb can we now turn to the backlog of responsive repairs and reporting performance
01:40:52 reporting performance could we first turn to tm00840516 forward slash three to the minutes of an executive team meeting on the 24th of february 2016.
01:41:08 thank you and you didn't attend this meeting but we see roughly a third of the way down the page under the heading repairs direct and the fourth line it says this graph work in progress
01:41:21 it says this graph work in progress uh four thousand pounds jobs overall one million forty five k barbara matthews these are not necessarily whole jobs some jobs need to be closed
01:41:30 be closed barbara matthews thinks this is about process graham is getting staff in to try and clear the backlog disquiet about level of the whip i think that's works in progress isn't it
01:41:41 works in progress isn't it yes you should be wip work in progress yes graham was working towards half a million or one to two million it's not clear by year end we need an explanation why
01:41:52 by year end we need an explanation why surplus payroll costs lower how do we maintain getting the whip down paul the new chair of the board will be challenging was that backlog all in relation to responsive repairs can you remember
01:42:04 can you remember yeah if i can clarify so the where it says 4 000 pounds that's 4 000 jobs as a count of jobs rather than value and when you raise a job the nature of
01:42:15 and when you raise a job the nature of for a provincial repairs when you raise a job you you use a system which effect effectively diagnoses the job and enables you to attribute a cost to that job and you can you can say that the the
01:42:27 and you can you can say that the the whip was valued at around a million pounds at that point now in answer to my question was that backlog all in relation to responsive repairs
01:42:35 repairs yes would it have included fra related repairs
01:42:39 repairs yes it would barbara matthews thought the backlog was about process did you agree with that assessment at the time uh process was certainly a contributing factor what were the problems afflicting
01:42:51 factor what were the problems afflicting process
01:42:52 process so some of the some of the issues were that jobs were not being closed down sufficiently so we may have completed the work on site um but um if the operative had a problem with his
01:43:01 with his handset he may not be able to close the job down and if they first there is an open job in whip rather than a completed repair for example what was the basis for the disquiet about level of the whip
01:43:14 disquiet about level of the whip um four thousand jobs is four thousand residents who have something broken in their home um and that's not acceptable what steps did you take to
01:43:25 did you take to clear the backlog at this stage okay so again there's a round structure around giving staff some very clear objectives um and also to put some more some greater
01:43:36 and also to put some more some greater focus on to our planning so in the office we had from memory four staff
01:43:42 staff who um whilst we had a computer system which
01:43:45 which um did most of the planning we had four staff who could manipulate that to get the most out of the day if you want to clear the work then the more the more jobs you can get completed by the operatives in a day the quicker your clue your your tutorial
01:43:57 the quicker your clue your your tutorial backlog
01:43:58 backlog now can i turn to the matters a rising action log which can be found at tmo double zero eight six two five four
01:44:06 four seven forward slash one sorry forward slash eleven i should say and if we look at item two which is review of kpis now that was an
01:44:18 which is review of kpis now that was an action allocated to you and sasha jevons to complete arising from the repairs direct board meeting on the 10th of march 2016 and we see in the update column which is the far right hand side
01:44:30 the far right hand side it's recorded completed and revised suite of kpi agreed with tmo board reported monthly slash quarterly did you review
01:44:39 review and revise repairs direct kpis with sasha jevons after the board meeting on the 10th of march 2016. i proposed a number of changes to the kpis i felt would more accurately reflect the the customer
01:44:53 more accurately reflect the the customer experience and also reflect changes in the responsive repairs market about how to compare one service with another now a tmo board meeting was held on the
01:45:05 now a tmo board meeting was held on the 31st of march 2016. uh we go to tmo100 for double eight two we find the agenda if we can go to page 17 1-7
01:45:20 which is described at the top as appendix 2 it's also described as a pain that's b
01:45:24 that's b which is the performance update referred to item 14 of the agenda now it sets out the proposed kpis for repairs direct now with those the kpis that you had
01:45:35 now with those the kpis that you had proposed
01:45:36 proposed to sasha jevons or had that been altered before it reached this final stage no the 2016-17 targets were those i proposed
01:45:45 proposed to the repairs direct board which included such a chevrons um and then they and once the repairs direct board uh supported my proposals they were taken to the tmo board
01:45:56 taken to the tmo board for approval thank you now if we look on the
01:45:59 the far left hand side the second entry under the heading responsive repairs repairs direct says average days to complete a responsive repair now that was added and percentage of non-emergency repairs
01:46:12 and percentage of non-emergency repairs complete and target removed can you explain the rationale for
01:46:17 for the addition and the removal so average days to complete a responsive repair is a very effective way of understanding the impact to a resident of having something broken in
01:46:28 resident of having something broken in their home and that tracked the moment from which they recorded a a a fault with us to the moment to which that repair was completed and as we can all imagine sitting in
01:46:40 and as we can all imagine sitting in your home with a leaking tap for 10 days is something due to you have to you have to um find quite uncomfortable therefore tracking our performance and shortening the number of days it took
01:46:51 shortening the number of days it took to complete a repair was a very good measure of the service we were providing to our customers now volume of outstanding repairs broken down by
01:46:59 down by age was not specifically proposed can you explain why
01:47:05 because the other metrics in that um in that list would expose an aging profile
01:47:12 profile so for example if you had a large number of repairs that you were completing that were
01:47:17 were three or perhaps four months old then the then your score on the average days to complete a responsible repair would go up and it would prompt a further investigation given you were mindful of ensuring kpis
01:47:29 given you were mindful of ensuring kpis reflected
01:47:30 reflected what was going on what we know was going on was that there was a continuing problem with the backlog of fra actions now mindful of that history mindful that
01:47:41 now mindful of that history mindful that the previous month of there'd been 4 000 jobs outstanding wouldn't volume of outstanding jobs broken down by age of being a useful practical
01:47:51 practical kpi bearing in mind the particular experience of repairs direct it could have been a consideration i would agree however the value of whip or work in progress was included in our in our financial
01:48:02 was included in our in our financial consideration and the other metrics on here would have flagged
01:48:07 flagged growth in in backlogs can we turn now to a meeting the repairs direct board on the 15th of december 2016
01:48:16 2016 which is rbk trouble zero five nine one two five we see you're listed third on the rotor of attendees and if we go to page
01:48:28 and if we go to page two and item five point three it says this work in progress was within target an aged analysis of whip by job profile was agreed to be brought
01:48:39 by job profile was agreed to be brought to the next meeting it was confirmed all jobs outstanding before june 2016 would be cleared by the end of 2016. why was an aged analysis of work in progress requested
01:48:50 progress requested at that meeting um having from recollection having brought the overall
01:48:57 overall volume and value of work in progress to be within the target we set ourselves um the board were keen to understand whether there were some particularly old jobs that were hanging around
01:49:08 hanging around um that we would miss by by just looking at the headline values some the nature of some repairs like leaks as i've described earlier can take some time to root through and
01:49:20 can take some time to root through and that's why the people have asked to see that
01:49:22 that now looking at the record that whip was within target now admittedly this was a meeting in december 2016 but we know certainly in february 2016 there were 4
01:49:35 certainly in february 2016 there were 4 000 outstanding jobs can you help us as to what target was applied for the purposes of making this statement to the board um for my recollection i can't recall the volume of whip i can
01:49:47 i can't recall the volume of whip i can record we said ourselves a target that the value of whip should be below a half a million pounds um
01:49:53 um you do need a degree of of working progress to keep your workforce busy and to have some predictability about the need to subcontract work overcoming periods
01:50:03 periods now the next repairs direct board meeting was on the 8th of march 2017 and we can find the minutes at tm00862574
01:50:15 and if we go to page 10 so these are the board papers right in the minutes
01:50:21 we find here the analysis of aged works in progress just following on from the december meeting yes and if we could just look at the bottom of this page
01:50:33 so we need to de-magnify and you'll see at the very bottom there
01:50:40 uh file name g web etc had you generated these statistics uh it's possible i don't recall but it is possible
01:50:48 possible who else would have done if it weren't you um it was one of my fina one of the financial support team but it would have passed to me i i generally collated the board pack so it would have been requested by me
01:50:59 it would have been requested by me and then reviewed by me as i put the ball pack together and so you would scrutinize the accuracy of the data yes on the board now can we look at the top graph
01:51:07 top graph entitled aged whip volume now to the lay eye it appears to show at least a thousand repairs were outstanding from october 2016
01:51:18 outstanding from october 2016 through to january 2017. first of all have i read that bar chart correctly it's around 100 jobs from october 2000 not a thousand so you don't add them all
01:51:30 not a thousand so you don't add them all up
01:51:32 up so that's so on this in this example there are a hundred jobs that were raised in october as at the time of collecting that report was still open and not completed understood
01:51:43 understood now can we look at the minutes of this particular meeting which can be found at tmo
01:51:47 tmo double zero eight nine four three zero three
01:51:50 three and if we go to page two and item three point four
01:52:00 you see at the top of the page there it says an age analysis of whip was distributed it was noted that 50 of the works predated 2016 there were a number of complex leak repairs in view of the md
01:52:12 repairs in view of the md it was not an unusual profile for a business like rd the committee discussed the target whip and the number of jobs this equated to in value it was noted that the automated system would assist however this was not fully
01:52:23 would assist however this was not fully complete as there was a coding issue i.t were as yet unable to resolve it was agreed that this issue would be reported back through the md's report first of all why was it not an unusual
01:52:35 first of all why was it not an unusual profile in your considered view so
01:52:40 view so responsive repairs tend to have a very seasonal profile you have less works raised in the summer more works raised in the winter and also a lot of those works that are
01:52:51 and also a lot of those works that are race in the winter can be problematic leak detection particularly in high rise accommodation can take some time to resolve
01:52:58 resolve um and the volume of work will will generally prolong the time it takes to clear your work in progress
01:53:05 progress so your average days the metric that we referred to earlier would tend to be slightly longer during a winter months than it would be during the summer months what was the target whip at this stage
01:53:15 stage again i can't remember the volume target we set but from a value perspective it was half a million pounds and was value was greater emphasis put on the value for the reasons you've given as opposed to volume
01:53:26 opposed to volume um we we looked at both um from a business financial management perspective obviously value is incredibly important we've often spent money on parts and not yet finished a repair
01:53:37 yet finished a repair and haven't yet therefore been able to be paid for it uh operationally uh volume is is a key driver in terms of scheduling a workforce
01:53:45 workforce and planning resource now paul gervo your predecessor had um reported at a repairs direct board meeting on the 28th of may 2015 we don't need to go to it but the reference is item 5.2 rbk trouble zero
01:53:59 reference is item 5.2 rbk trouble zero five nine zero five two forward slash two that an acceptable level of aged whip was 40 to 50
01:54:06 50 jobs at any one time and there should be a report explaining any exceptional whip over
01:54:11 over two months old would you agree with that as a metric i 40 to 50 jobs in whip would sound incredibly low given that we were dealing with i
01:54:22 given that we were dealing with i believe from memory something north of 30 000 repairs a year 40 to 50 jobs is basically a day's work now can we look
01:54:34 now can we look at a tmo board meeting and which took place at the 30th of march 2017 and if we could go to tmo one double zero four six nine six zero forward slash twenty one
01:54:52 here we have board kpi report and we see that responsive repairs are there at the top of the page and average days to complete a
01:55:03 and average days to complete a responsive repair i think the key indicator you've identified in your oven state is green now given the backlog that we've just been looking at has set out in your in your bar chart did you agree that
01:55:16 in your bar chart did you agree that this performance indicator didn't give a full and therefore accurate picture of the volume and age of the outstanding fra actions in terms of meeting the standard house
01:55:28 in terms of meeting the standard house mark definition of that kpi it was an accurate reflection of the position of the business of course there were jobs that were that were completed that took that had taken
01:55:39 were completed that took that had taken more than 10.2 days but there were many jobs that we were completing within 24 or 48 hours so it was an accurate reflection of the business performance yes
01:55:52 and i'm sorry just to clarify that point house mark is an industry body in social housing who set the definitions of how you calculate these measures this is not something that we subjectively uh came up with
01:56:05 subjectively uh came up with and that was the criteria you consistently used during your time when measuring performance it was responsive i used it consistently because i felt it was a very strong measure of the actual customer experience yes
01:56:18 customer experience yes now can i turn to a separate top check topic which is repairs direct involvement in the maintenance of flat entrance doors now can i ask you to go to your fifth witness statement which is at tmo double
01:56:29 witness statement which is at tmo double zero eight four two three seven nine forward slash six and paragraph twenty three you say there this i have been asked to detail any involvement repairs
01:56:40 asked to detail any involvement repairs direct had in work on flat entrance doors at grenfell tower including in relation to self-closing mechanisms the work carried out by repairs direct on flat entrance doors at grenfell tower would have been in relation to requests made by residents
01:56:51 relation to requests made by residents individually or via the fire risk assessment program repairs direct had no involvement in any planned preventative maintenance programme of work
01:56:59 work in relation to flat entrance doors at grenfell tower insofar as i can recall now do you recall any involvement the repairs direct had in the tmo's inspection and planned maintenance regime for flat
01:57:11 and planned maintenance regime for flat entrance doors beyond grenfell tower
01:57:15 i recall that i was asked to provide a quotation
01:57:19 quotation for an installation program of door closers self-closing mechanisms across the borough and to propose what an inspection regime could possibly
01:57:32 what an inspection regime could possibly cost
01:57:33 cost and the problems associated with trying to deliver that and that that's all that's the sum total of your recollection on that as i recall yes um could we go to lfb quadruple zero three five three four forward slash one
01:57:47 three five three four forward slash one now this is 2013 so well before you joined
01:57:51 joined repairs direct but janice ray emailed matthew ramsey who's a fire safety inspection officer at the lfb and she set out a point one of this email
01:58:01 email the tmo's approach to self-closing devices on tenant's flat entrance doors and she says in the second bullet point that when properties become void self-closures will be reinstated
01:58:12 self-closures will be reinstated installed as necessary at other times when major work has been undertaken in the dwelling the self-closure will be reinstated if it has been disconnected now it's correct isn't it that repairs
01:58:23 now it's correct isn't it that repairs direct carried out repairs and maintenance and void properties yes that's correct now when you joined repairs direct was tmo's policy on inspection and maintenance of self-closing devices
01:58:34 self-closing devices as set out in this email and was it communicated to you uh if i could just take the time to recall the email
01:58:49 yes that's how i understood the policy to me and who communicated that policy to you can you remember now um it would have been part of our standard um lettable standard sorry documented lettable standard for void
01:59:01 documented lettable standard for void properties and so that was something the tmo directed yes the tmo had had agreed a lettable standard with with the royal borough uh that was documented and that was the
01:59:12 uh that was documented and that was the center to which we were to reinstate void properties and it was also part of this in terms of just general flat engine stores it was part of the specification for installing
01:59:23 part of the specification for installing a new door and it was your understanding that the policy the approach to self-closures was to be implemented by repairs direct staff if we were doing the work then yes
01:59:34 if we were doing the work then yes absolutely as we did not do the work as part of a plan preventative measurements program
01:59:38 program it was generally part of responsive repairs or in void prop and void works thank you now on the 9th of september 2016 janice ray circulated papers for the tmo
01:59:49 janice ray circulated papers for the tmo health and safety committee meeting which was due to be held on the 13th of september
01:59:53 september now those papers included paper 6 a review of fire safety policy and strategy
01:59:59 strategy and that can be found at tmo double zero eight four zero double six zero
02:00:07 let me go forward two
02:00:15 now there we go we can see um
02:00:20 the third bullet point the first line
02:00:24 says a flat entrance door now have a flat door assessment checklist and a fire door specification that repair direct use
02:00:34 use should be included or referred to and reproduced elsewhere now were you aware that repairs direct were using a flat door assessment checklist and fire door specification um i was aware that we had specification
02:00:46 um i was aware that we had specification that we were complying to yes and did you ever have calls to read the checklist or the assessment itself i can't recall i may have done can remember why each document was produced now
02:00:57 now no it was standard practice for most um major pieces of work to have a specification um so we understood the the requirement
02:01:08 um so we understood the the requirement of the work we were to do so in internally anything most of our repairs were to repair and and repair like for like in the events that we had to install knew there was a specification
02:01:19 was a specification that was documented by the tmo for us to adhere to now can we go to tm00873603
02:01:43 thank you now in relation to the specification we understand that it refers to a specification provided by paul brunning to janice ray and we see that here on the 14th of september 2015
02:01:56 the 14th of september 2015 and it says for all fc 30 door we are replacing now the attachment can be found at tm00873605
02:02:08 can be found at tm00873605 and this document needs to be downloaded which i apologize to the document
02:02:16 manager
02:02:44 this and if it's possible to look at the tick list sheet
02:02:53 thank you and it sets out there the specification for flat entrance doors including self-closing devices do you have that
02:03:01 have that yes i can see now is that the specification that was referred to in the fire safety strategy review can you help us with that uh i couldn't say for certain i i understood the strategy to around a
02:03:14 i understood the strategy to around a door called an fd30 with an fc30 whether that was a later iteration of this i couldn't say now is it correct that repairs direct operatives only carried out fire door repairs and
02:03:26 only carried out fire door repairs and subcontractors would have carried out any replacements for this specification um so
02:03:35 um so certainly we would have used subcontractors for any upvc based doors if they are wooden if there were wooden doors and an fd30 wooden door could have
02:03:46 doors and an fd30 wooden door could have been installed by uh our own staff who were qualified to do so
02:03:51 do so thank you now just in relation to the checklist can i take you to a separate email document which can be found at cst 0030151 forward slash 3 which hopefully should
02:04:04 forward slash 3 which hopefully should be an email from alex bosman to janice ray
02:04:07 ray on the 2nd of february 2016.
02:04:15 we see in the second paragraph alex bossman says ask janet ray whether she was able to provide a checklist for operatives to confirm doors can be considered normally fire rated when attending prior to installing a perco and renewal
02:04:28 prior to installing a perco and renewal of hinges
02:04:30 of hinges now janice ray forwarded that email to alan brooks and if we go to page one of this chain
02:04:42 and the first paragraph she says in the second sentence as per alex request the fire risk setter and i have come up with the following checklist for your operatives
02:04:53 your operatives she then set out a 10-point checklist to determine whether a door is a notional fire door now again can you help us is that the checklist that may that was referred to in the fire safety strategy
02:05:04 referred to in the fire safety strategy review
02:05:05 review i i again i don't know if that's the exact checklist um certainly there are elements of it i would expect you to have seen on the checklist
02:05:13 checklist alex bosman would have been qualified to specify
02:05:17 specify the requirements of the of the doors that we were to fit
02:05:22 can i ask you between the two possible candidates that we've identified for the checklist that was referred to is this the more likely one compared to the uh the document and the take this sheet we we looked at earlier that referred to
02:05:34 referred to fc 30 doors i really couldn't say well we'll be speculating can i now turn to a separate document which is tmo double zero eight four zero double six zero forward
02:05:46 eight four zero double six zero forward slash to
02:05:51 and this is again going back to the fire safety strategy review and if we look at the particular section that dealt with self closers which is the fifth bullet point
02:06:02 the fifth bullet point thank you um and it said this of closes inspection and maintenance of fit itself closes lfb advised that the rro so that's the 2005 order requires regular inspection maintenance
02:06:13 requires regular inspection maintenance of these devices to ensure that are still operating effectively and have not been disconnected disabled the lfb have advised that landlords must not capitalized rely exclusively on void checks to
02:06:24 rely exclusively on void checks to undertake these inspections how can this be progressed is this something that esa's can assist with are there any ppm contractors so that's plan uh preventive maintenance
02:06:36 so that's plan uh preventive maintenance contractors such as gas servicing contractor would who could assist could it be included in tenancy checks could rd repairs direct be asked to feedback after visiting a property now if we can go on to page
02:06:48 a property now if we can go on to page three and roughly two thirds of the way down we see your comments there
02:06:58 on this document now you don't comment on the inspection and maintenance of self-closers my question is this do you recall what was discussed about these options for inspecting self-closing devices
02:07:10 inspecting self-closing devices at the health and safety committee meeting on the 13th of september 2016. i do recall that there was lots of conversations around how to effectively deliver an inspection
02:07:22 how to effectively deliver an inspection program on door closes i don't recall if it was
02:07:26 it was specifically at that meeting lots of conversations about it sorry mr swift um do you remember giving your view at that meeting as to whether repairs direct staff could check self-closers when carrying out work any other work at
02:07:39 when carrying out work any other work at tmo properties uh i don't recall specifically giving my advice no
02:07:44 advice no now can i turn to a um another document which is i'm afraid another email chain uh tmo double zero eight six three seven six seven
02:07:56 and forward slash three
02:08:05 we see that the very bottom of the page is the start of an email from janice ray to derek singleton on the 8th of december 2016. the full email is over the page on page four
02:08:18 and that she asked derek singleton who was your ops manager about actions arising from the fra for frinstead house and if we could look at the bottom paragraph on page four
02:08:29 paragraph on page four there we go
02:08:35 and asking if he could assist with checking whether the flat entrance doors were self-closing fd30s there we go now if we go to page three
02:08:46 now if we go to page three the first paragraph and the second line
02:08:52 mr singleton says this in his reply he queries why carl stokes had not checked them
02:08:57 them and suggested it would be quotes better for carl stokes to assess what is required
02:09:01 required that we i.e repairs direct can work to and then if we go up to page two
02:09:09 we have janice's james ray's response and in the first paragraph she says this amongst other matters do we not have someone who can assess the doors he
02:09:20 have someone who can assess the doors he highlights and hasn't been able to access as per the nominal checklist that we use for a dare
02:09:25 dare gony question mark and then goes on to the second paragraph also shouldn't we have another resource we can call on for these assessments in the final sentence
02:09:37 assessments in the final sentence and if we go up to page one
02:09:41 and the bottom mr singleton replies can you send me through the checklist used for a dare and i'll get one of the supervisors to check these and janice ray replied
02:09:53 to check these and janice ray replied obviously further up the page on the 30th of december 2016. here is the info that i provided alan brooks in relation to a normally fire rated door clearly all flat entrance doors now need to be
02:10:04 flat entrance doors now need to be fitted with self-closing devices and so the checklist needs amending to include the present and effective operation of a self-closing device however where door inspections are recommended because the door has clearly
02:10:15 recommended because the door has clearly been replaced and relatively recent time frame
02:10:17 frame this door must meet the current standard and be self-closing fd30s fitted with all intumescent and cold seals etc
02:10:25 seals etc now did repairs direct supervisors carry out flat entrance door exp inspections more widely than at for instant house after this correspondence no they didn't
02:10:37 after this correspondence no they didn't can you help us to why not um inspecting um uh to inspect for a self-closing device being on a door a perko self-closing device um is a chain that's
02:10:50 self-closing device um is a chain that's fitted between the inside of the door into the inside of the frame it's only therefore visible by
02:10:55 by going into the property and looking at the door
02:10:59 the door residents are reluctant to take time from work
02:11:03 from work for appointments for to for you to come look at something that isn't broken and therefore it's very difficult to get access and that's the subject of much discussion when we were being asked to look at uh a
02:11:14 when we were being asked to look at uh a borough wide inspection process so i think from memory
02:11:19 memory our supervisors uh pursued with the help of
02:11:22 of resident liaison staff uh an inspection that foreign sid house but um we we never resolved the issue of how you could look at internally contained purchase
02:11:33 internally contained purchase self-clause self-closers on his on doors across the borough thank you now i think uh earlier in your evidence but certainly um in your statements you referred to the fact
02:11:44 your statements you referred to the fact that after completing a program a flat entrance door works for a darren hazelwood towers yes repairs direct were asked to quote for a three-year program to install self-closers on flat entrance doors across the
02:11:55 on flat entrance doors across the boroughs is that right correct yes now um can we look at a paper that janice ray drafted for the joint management team meeting um between the rbkc and tim on the 1st of march 2017
02:12:06 of march 2017 and it's entitled installation of self-closing devices on flat entrance doors for discussion that can be found at rbk quintuple zero nine double eight four slash one
02:12:20 nine double eight four slash one so there we go there's the document if we can turn to page three
02:12:26 we see there at the bottom half of the page a table setting out the estimated cost of both the proposed self closer installation program as well as the proposed self-closure inspection the maintenance program
02:12:37 maintenance program now janice ray said in her evidence that you provided the information which went into that table is that correct yes i worked on this with sam hart who was my commercial manager
02:12:49 was my commercial manager now given that is it right that the assumptions and estimated costs set out in the table covered all flat entrance doors in tmo properties including those which had been replaced as part of the door replacement program
02:13:01 as part of the door replacement program between 2011 and 2013. it looked at all all frontend stores except those that were that were properties with a street entrance so in other words flats that
02:13:12 entrance so in other words flats that were part of a block not those with the front door that opened directly onto the street so subject to that caveat the table did cover all flat entrance stores including those that have been part of the flat entrance
02:13:23 that have been part of the flat entrance door replacement program in 2011 so the vetted by recollection yes now under the heading installation program for total stock so that's the first item the assumption is 75
02:13:35 assumption is 75 insulation now that appears to suggest that 75
02:13:39 that 75 of flat entrance doors would need to have self-closing devices installed is that a correct reading of that table yes and that's that's an assumption that we made at the time correct yes
02:13:50 we made at the time correct yes can you help the panel as to what the basis was for that assumption i'm afraid i can't recall now under the second heading inspection maintenance program what was the basis for the assumption that 20
02:14:01 the basis for the assumption that 20 of flat entrance doors required their closes repaired or adjusted um it was fairly common to find that when you visited a property that the door closer had been disabled
02:14:13 that the door closer had been disabled or removed residents struggled with it if it made the door quite heavy if you were trying to
02:14:19 to go through with a with a buggy perhaps or some shopping or perhaps if you were an elderly resident and also some residents like to be able to leave their front door open and if their children were playing on the balcony
02:14:30 on the balcony outside the flat which of course the door closer prevented so it was it was very common to find that they've been removed and with the same factors have informed the assumption that 20 of doors required closes to be
02:14:41 that 20 of doors required closes to be replaced yes because some were simply uh some were simply disabled others were removed entirely thank you now can i turn to repairs carried out to flat entrance stores at grenfell and can we look at some
02:14:53 grenfell and can we look at some specific
02:14:53 specific specific examples uh and first of all flat
02:14:57 flat 26. now the resident of flat 26 says that paragraph 4b of his statement at the inquiry and i quote there was an instant after the front door to my flat was replaced when i was trapped inside
02:15:09 was replaced when i was trapped inside my flat
02:15:10 my flat i contacted the tmo and informed them that i was stuck inside my flat and could not get the door to open the tmo sent somebody over and he managed to open the door from the outside and carried out repair works to
02:15:21 outside and carried out repair works to the door
02:15:22 the door i had no further problems with the new door after these repair works were carried out and the resin then went on state further the contractor who was sent to fix the door
02:15:30 door offered to take off the self-closing mechanism on the door and did not mention anything about the risk that this would cause i chose not to have self-closing mechanism removed and the reference is iws quadruple zero
02:15:43 and the reference is iws quadruple zero one seven
02:15:44 one seven four two four slash four now the repair records that the inquiry has been provided which were extracted from repairs direct open contractor system
02:15:55 repairs direct open contractor system suggests that a repairs directive franklin griffiths completed this repair on the 18th of may 2016. are you able to explain why repairs direct operative appears to have offered to remove
02:16:07 appears to have offered to remove a self-closing device no i'm no i'm not able to explain that and i'm disappointed if that were the case were repairs direct operatives made aware of the purpose
02:16:15 purpose and requirement of self-closing devices on flat entrance doors yes they were and is that something you can speak personally to having witnessed instructions being given to your staff the subject of
02:16:26 the subject of of door closers was a very large discussion pointed around the tmo for some months and it was certainly discussed
02:16:34 discussed uh in toolbox talks that i attended with those staff can i now turn to flat 153 at the tower and if we can turn to tmo one double zero two double three four eight
02:16:48 now this is a display job screenshot for repair
02:16:52 repair two flat one five three um raised on the 28th of july sorry 29th of july 2016. um f griff who i think refers to
02:17:04 um f griff who i think refers to franklin griffiths nothing much wrong with door apart from door closer missing now we found no record of a repair following the self-closer issue now where an operative identified an
02:17:16 now where an operative identified an issue with a flat entrance door and the need for a further repair or indeed a replacement to that door during a job
02:17:22 a job was there a process in place for progressing the further repair yes indeed he the operative would be expected to if he didn't have the materials on his van there and then he would be expected
02:17:34 van there and then he would be expected to
02:17:35 to arrange for a second job to be raised um with a detailed um description of exactly what work had to be be completed now were operatives required to notify anyone if a door was
02:17:46 required to notify anyone if a door was left
02:17:47 left insecure or the fire resistant was adversely impacted for example if the self-closure had been removed pending a further repair if a door was insecure then there was an established procedure for putting a temporary secure door in place
02:18:00 putting a temporary secure door in place um
02:18:00 um if a door closer was detached then they would they were instructed to reattach it
02:18:06 it and again can you testify that that instruction was given to your staff absolutely yes can i now turn to flat 135 now if we go to iws quadruple zero two zero
02:18:19 if we go to iws quadruple zero two zero six five four slash three samuel daniels was the resident of flat 135
02:18:26 135 and he says that paragraph 14 which is just below the halfway mark of that page this one evening this fault was raised with the tmo by phone on an emergency line
02:18:35 line as it was as it was at night and the front door was not closing according to my housing file this happened on the 4th of april 2017. i remember a caretaker came out and took
02:18:46 i remember a caretaker came out and took out the middle hinge and the door this made the door close once you pulled it closed but there was still an issue with the lock system the caretaker said they would come back and replace the entire door but they never did now the repair record
02:18:59 but they never did now the repair record shown
02:18:59 shown out of hours repair requests for flat 135 on the 4th of april we don't need to go to it but the reference is row 82 rbk triple zero five three two nine seven
02:19:10 seven and that request was described as a front door not closing which is recorded as having been completed by a repairs direct operative uh pieter klimovich on the same day
02:19:21 uh pieter klimovich on the same day rather than a caretaker now the records also
02:19:25 also show a follow-on repair request on the 5th of april 2017 and the reference is row 84 rbk trouble zero five three two nine seven again we don't need to go to it and that
02:19:36 again we don't need to go to it and that was described as an overhaul complete upvc front door the target date was set as the eighth of may and a contra subcontractor doorway maintenance was allocated the repair
02:19:47 allocated the repair the repair however was recorded as abandoned and there's no nothing further is recorded now that's a very long run up to hopefully a shorter question which is this when a repair was abandoned was there a system in place
02:19:59 abandoned was there a system in place for checking why it had been abandoned and that the repair was subsequently carried out um if a repair was abandoned the majority occasions that would have been because the staff
02:20:10 that would have been because the staff were unable to access the property when the staff are unable to access the property they would um so firstly they would ring the doorbell and knock on the door if there was no answer they would ring
02:20:22 if there was no answer they would ring the resident's telephone number which they had on their pda they would then call the office who would also try and call the resident and if we were still unable to get into getting any contact from with them we would leave a postcard
02:20:33 would leave a postcard nurturing for notifying them that we tried to attend and the opportunity would take a photograph of the front door which would be uploaded from his pda
02:20:40 pda to evidence that we had attended that point the postcard that we left through the letterbox would instruct the resident to recontact us to make it make a further appointment for the repair to be complete thank you can i now turn to a separate
02:20:51 thank you can i now turn to a separate and distinct topic which is that of complaints and if we go to tm0102608
02:21:01 now this is an email from andrea newton from the lancaster west residents association and it's an email sent to sasha jevons and others now if we look at the third paragraph
02:21:12 now if we look at the third paragraph she says this in the second sentence i feel there is a huge lack of coordination within tmo and repairs direct she then goes on to explain in detail her concern about the management of repairs
02:21:23 repairs and if we go down to the sixth paragraph which starts but despite management at tmo literally micromanaging specific repairs that then passed on to the relevant people within the repairs departments
02:21:34 people within the repairs departments staff are seeming to completely ignore procedure or incapable of getting bookings finalized and contractors to arrive to the jobs on the right day if at all also there are conflicting stories
02:21:45 also there are conflicting stories coming from various staff all working on the same repair this simply does not reflect the customer satisfaction data you have gathered now sasha jevons forwarded that
02:21:56 forwarded that to you and various others later that day my question is is did you agree with andrea newton's assessment that there was a lack of coordination between the tmo
02:22:06 tmo and repairs direct uh no i wouldn't have agreed with that however what it would accept is that andrea newton was a resident on the lancaster west estate um and she said he was getting a
02:22:17 um and she said he was getting a perception that things were not running as mutually smoothly as they should and certainly we did need i was certainly not being um complacent and i do believe that our service could
02:22:28 and i do believe that our service could improve but not to the degree that she describes there did you have any cause to consider that andrea newton was exaggerating uh
02:22:39 that andrea newton was exaggerating uh the scale
02:22:40 the scale of the concerns regarding repairs direct responsiveness to sorting out repairs i i can't speak for andrea newton's perceptions she's documented something here
02:22:51 documented something here so the best of your knowledge put differently were the concerns she's raised here in this email representative of broader concerns expressed by residents in tma properties about repairs direct service
02:23:03 about repairs direct service it was not unusual if i went to resident meetings and resident associations as i did
02:23:08 did from time to time for residents to complain about the time it took to complete repairs particularly difficult repairs so i'm not surprised by that comment
02:23:20 so i'm not surprised by that comment do you accept that uh her views were representative therefore uh her views represented her perception uh clearly from that note it's not for me to interpret what she meant beyond
02:23:31 me to interpret what she meant beyond that i don't think now can we turn to page two within this email chain and it's point four of sasha jevon's email to you and others including mr black
02:23:43 and it says this graham please start thinking about when we can start the lanc west pilot if not already what was the lank west pilot sorry i'm trying just trying to find out
02:23:54 sorry i'm trying just trying to find out on this i'm terribly sorry if you it's her email to you so if you go slightly further up the page
02:24:08 see at the very top right sorry um
02:24:13 can you remember what that pilot was i i'm struggling to remember i i believe uh that we were considering allocating a number of operatives to work specifically and exclusively on
02:24:25 to work specifically and exclusively on the lancaster west estate and to see how that improved our service delivery for those residents
02:24:34 so given the purpose underlying the pilot
02:24:38 pilot is it fair to say that there were genuine
02:24:41 genuine substance the concerns expressed by andrea newton um it would it would suggest um that there would that there was more than one person saying such thing you're right
02:24:51 right um i i'm always open to trying new operational models if it's going to help deliver
02:24:57 deliver a better service to the customer did you meet sasha jevons to discuss the concerns
02:25:05 concerns identified by andrea newton and which the lancos pilot appears to have been designed to remedy uh i don't recall sorry
02:25:15 so would how regular would your meetings be with sasha javens sasha and i would certainly have met at the monthly repairs direct management group
02:25:27 repairs direct management group and probably once a month in between that
02:25:31 that how efficient was sasha jevons about chasing you to answer requests emails or to see whether
02:25:38 whether tasks been completed very much so her pa also supported her in doing that so can we take it that it's likely if not probable that you did subsequently discuss the concerns expressed by andrew newton with
02:25:50 concerns expressed by andrew newton with sasha
02:25:51 sasha i i i may have i don't recall having a specific conversation on that point can you remember whether the lanquest pilot
02:25:58 pilot was implemented uh no i don't
02:26:04 do you remember there being any pressure from
02:26:07 from executives at the tmo to ensure that the landquest pilot was implemented uh no i don't recall that did you receive any correspondence from councillors expressing concerns about the
02:26:18 the efficiency and effectiveness of the service provided by repairs direct at least
02:26:22 least in relation to lancaster west um i received correspondence from councillors um on behalf of their um of residents in their constituencies
02:26:33 of residents in their constituencies from time to time and generally they would be about problems so i can't tell you if it was specifically about lancaster west but certainly i did perceive correspondence from councillors can i ask you to turn to tm00899676
02:26:47 can i ask you to turn to tm00899676 forward slash 3.
02:27:00 this is the witness statement of shannon mckinnis and if we could look at paragraph 12 in a particular third line she says this a lot of residents were unhappy with the quality of repairs works
02:27:10 works the time it was taking to handle the repairs and also the level of priority allocated to the repair were you aware of a lot of resident dissatisfaction with the quality of
02:27:21 dissatisfaction with the quality of repairs being carried out i would disagree with the phrase it was a lot we did track resident satisfaction there were a volume of
02:27:31 volume of as a standard routine there of um a proportion of all completed repairs received a follow-up call to assess customer satisfaction with the service delivered and of course we
02:27:43 the service delivered and of course we also kept
02:27:44 also kept um kept records of the volume of complaints received the volume of complaints received as i recall were was in in low percentage figures compared to the number of repair works we completed
02:27:57 repair works we completed uh were you aware of a reputation held by repairs direct um for poor management of repairs and indeed disdain for residents
02:28:07 um no i was not aware of that now are you familiar with the name samantha burrell i am and what was her role samantha barrell
02:28:19 and what was her role samantha barrell worked in the call center for the tmo for a period of time and latterly only towards the end of my time
02:28:27 time at repairsdirect she moved into working into customer service role for me handling complaints um could i ask us to go to tm00894 344 forward slash 10.
02:28:50 if we go to paragraph 44 it's really the first line
02:28:56 samantha burrell explained that repairs direct carried out customer satisfaction surveys
02:29:01 surveys and in relation to those surveys she says at paragraph 45 just below residents were called and asked to give marks out of 10. we had to maintain over a 90 to 95 satisfaction rate so if i was to make 10
02:29:12 satisfaction rate so if i was to make 10 calls who gave marks under 6 i would have to call another 10 to make sure percentage went higher if we go over the page to power 46 she said this however in my view these
02:29:23 she said this however in my view these statistics did not provide a true picture of repairs carried out when i commenced employment repairs direct
02:29:29 direct the ethos was to select specific jobs which was almost a guarantee positive reactions to the works for example a tap repair to bolster the percentage now were you aware
02:29:41 the percentage now were you aware of the efforts to bolster satisfaction rates repairs as set out here by samantha burrow absolutely not in my uh my firm belief was that the calls were selected at random
02:29:53 were selected at random [Applause] was there any doubt at any time about resident satisfaction with the quality of repairs um i was very clear about residents
02:30:05 um i was very clear about residents perception of the quality of repairs we had
02:30:08 had uh our customer satisfaction service as you see here we had our complaints data and we had feedback from resident meetings thank you can i now turn to a separate
02:30:19 thank you can i now turn to a separate topic which is that of vulnerable persons
02:30:21 persons and if i could ask you to turn to
02:30:30 tm008601
02:30:38 now this is as you see a tmo senior management team meeting um on the 18th of february 2016. if we go to page four and item 8.1 it's under the heading supporting people
02:30:50 it's under the heading supporting people policy it's recorded that tb so theresa brown advised that there was not a mechanism for staff to feedback information on resident vulnerabilities which led to the development of this policy a crm process is being developed
02:31:02 policy a crm process is being developed around this tb and gw so that's you we'll discuss the most suitable mechanism for repairs direct staff to feedback any concerns the formal policy will undergo some further amendments and hc so
02:31:15 further amendments and hc so hashem shoon added that cas do you know what that is uh it was the assisted living areas uh forget forgive me i can't remember the exact
02:31:25 exact um uh interpretation letters but it was gives assisted living areas needs to be included in the document tb to us david noble to discuss amendments with hc now do you recall discussion about the supporting people policy
02:31:36 supporting people policy and how repairs direct staff would report back identified vulnerabilities of residents yes i do and what was the substance of that discussion um effectively the reality
02:31:48 discussion um effectively the reality what we all understood was that due to the nature of repairs direct work we possibly entered more of the properties and any other part of the tmo
02:31:57 the tmo and encountered more the residents on a daily basis than other people um uh the pdas that the operatives held on and on which they received their work would flag any known an appropriate
02:32:09 would flag any known an appropriate vulnerability and that could be that it was perhaps a mother with very young children or a fragile elderly person or it could flag
02:32:19 flag an alert for a potential violent resident
02:32:23 resident for example if they encountered something that differed to that they could um a they were empowered to walk away if they felt and in a way endanger themselves but if they felt that the resident was some in
02:32:35 they felt that the resident was some in other way vulnerable that hadn't been notified
02:32:37 notified then they would flag that to their planner by calling our office and they would notify it to the customer service center and teresa brown team would follow it up thank you now can we go to tm0086013
02:32:50 thank you now can we go to tm0086013 forward slash one
02:33:03 now this is the tmo sporting resins procedure
02:33:06 procedure which seems to have come into practical effect in or about april 2016. first of all are you familiar with that document
02:33:14 document um i i don't recall reading it particularly can you help us as to whether your staff were trained on the requirements of this yes that myself were trained on what to
02:33:25 yes that myself were trained on what to look for in terms of resident vulnerability and how to handle that should they encounter it so you hadn't seen the document but your staff were trained on its requirements uh yes i would say i was certainly aware
02:33:38 uh yes i would say i was certainly aware that the training was going to take place and supported that as a requirement and can you now remember when that training took place and who was responsible for providing it i don't remember when i believe it was
02:33:49 i don't remember when i believe it was delivered by a member of teresa brown's team during one of our toolbox talks with the operatives can we turn to
02:33:59 tm00901356 this should be a repairs direct operative summary form
02:34:10 there's a list here of the types of issues
02:34:13 issues that may affect a resident in a box for comments now have you seen this form before
02:34:18 before uh it's not familiar to me particularly though can you help us to whether that was used by repairs direct operatives it may have been i would have been surprised i would have expected them to
02:34:29 surprised i would have expected them to run the office and deliver the information first hand having left the property rather than fill out
02:34:34 fill out try and find a form in the van to fill out and hand in would would there or should there have been as part of that process some form of document to record what a and not repairs direct
02:34:46 to record what a and not repairs direct operative found particularly if it concerned the vulnerability or disability of a particular resident um so my expectation and my understanding of the processor followers
02:34:57 understanding of the processor followers having called the planner in the office that the planner would have immediately completed an email to record the nature of the concern being flagged by the operative and that would have been sent to the housing team to follow up
02:35:10 housing team to follow up thank you can i now turn to the issue of the health check audit review after the fire at grenfell and could i ask you to go to tmo double zero eight six two
02:35:21 zero eight six two five four one forward slash five
02:35:35 now this is a report entitled repairs direct
02:35:39 direct the way forward uh prepared by the interim managing director for repairs direct chris furlong for a tmo board meeting held on the 18th of january 2018 so that's after you've left the company in november 2017.
02:35:51 left the company in november 2017. can we go to page 11 which ought to be appendix 1 of the report
02:36:03 and this sets out the findings of a health check on the repairs direct service and if we go about a third of the way down we see in the far left hand column
02:36:11 column op 05 and it's recorded backlog of repairs dates to january 2017 total number 5400 jobs now given the concerns raised about the
02:36:23 now given the concerns raised about the backlog
02:36:24 backlog which had been a consistent feature during your time at the repairs direct can you account for how this backlog amassed from january 2017 onwards sadly in the immediate aftermath of the
02:36:36 sadly in the immediate aftermath of the fire i dedicated a number of my team to work on the lancaster west estate on the other homes which had been evacuated in the immediate footprint of grenfell tower so we were replacing doors that had been
02:36:48 replacing doors that had been um the police had opened forcibly we were reassuring residents of the safety of the properties and helping to encourage people to move back in i'd also diverted a number of my
02:36:59 in i'd also diverted a number of my staff to increase the speed with which we turned around void properties to create more opportunities to re-home people who were in temporary accommodation following the fire
02:37:11 accommodation following the fire at the same time productivity of of the teams
02:37:15 teams reduced significantly for a couple of reasons
02:37:18 reasons um obviously they felt as everyone did the gravity of the huge horror that had occurred
02:37:26 excuse me um and um
02:37:33 and um and they were struggling to conduct their day-to-day work uh and uh residents across the borough were also frankly scared of the risk of firing their own property i'm sorry
02:37:44 firing their own property i'm sorry can i have a moment if you would like to stop for a minute can i please yeah the ocean will take you out for a minute if you'd like to go out
02:38:04 i think the best thing is if we rise just for a few moments and as soon as mr webb feels able to carry on then we'll cause
02:46:15 thank you mr webb's ready would you ask him to come back in please
02:46:27 thank you for that right right now mr webb yes thank you thank you yes mr claire thanks sir um can we go back uh just briefly only a few more questions mr webb to the doctor where we're at and go to
02:46:39 to the doctor where we're at and go to the bottom of this page says op 11 which is the bottom of the page and it says there's no structured approach to categorizing repairs into types of repairs
02:46:48 repairs eg fra actions complaints actions standard repairs etc and as such are difficult to manage monitor or prioritize now given the emphasis that have been put on prioritizing fra action since
02:47:00 put on prioritizing fra action since at least january 2016 can you explain that particular finding no i can't and um obviously it's post states my time there uh i can only assume that some of the
02:47:11 uh i can only assume that some of the processes i had put in place had unravel in the time since can we turn over the page roughly two thirds of the way down and look at op 19
02:47:22 where it says that repairs processes are inefficient and not working a lack of consisting working spelling is correct there is causing jobs to fail um are you able to explain this
02:47:34 um are you able to explain this particular finding no i'm sorry i can't
02:47:40 um if we can turn to page 16 fourth row
02:47:46 and we see that hs08 on the far left which says there is a health and safety training matrix for workforce but is not up to date staff are not up to date with training
02:47:57 date with training um given the concerns that previously been raised about training which we discussed earlier this morning are you able to explain this conclusion here
02:48:06 here no i mean what i can say is that in the immediate aftermath of the fire as i explained earlier the staff our productivity had dipped considerably they were
02:48:17 considerably they were um struggling with the aftermath of much of much of us the and we had diverted a number of resources to work on um particular issues on the lancaster university state
02:48:28 university state to make those homes fit for rehabilitation and also to turn around void properties as quickly as we could to provide alternative living for those who've been made homeless
02:48:41 made homeless and therefore the available staff for day-to-day tasks had slowed down which i think also speaks to your earlier comment about the amount of work that had built up in a backlog
02:48:51 backlog and my um certainly even between the date of the fire and the date of my departure some of our regular processes slipped because we were very much in a reactive
02:49:02 reactive um environment and trying to do the best we could for everyone around us mr webb thank you very much sir those are my
02:49:10 are my end of my questions as it stands may i have the usual opportunity yes my size for 10 minutes and to see if there are any further questions i've missed out indeed about there any further questions others may have yes
02:49:21 further questions others may have yes of course well mr webber you may know that when council gets the end of his questions or things he has we have a short break to enable him to take stock and to enable others who aren't
02:49:31 aren't present in the room to suggest questions that perhaps ought to be asked of course so we'll we'll break now until one o'clock um at one o'clock we'll get you back in and see if there's any more questions
02:49:42 and see if there's any more questions for you but i hope we'll quite soon get to the end of the whole business all right thank you sir so if you go to the show we'll see you at uh one o'clock thank you
02:50:01 right mr cannell we'll come back in at one o'clock if you find you need more time
02:50:05 time then just let the usher know thanks
03:07:24 would you ask mr webb to come back in
03:07:36 please all right mr webb i'm sorry we kept you waiting longer than i indicated but sometimes that happens i'm sure anyway we'll now see if there are any more questions for you yes mr clear thank you so just a few more questions
03:07:48 thank you so just a few more questions um if you bear with me mr webb now we touched um we discussed uh miss burrell's views earlier in examination um in her witness statement she'd suggested that there'd been a lack of oversight and technical competency on
03:08:00 oversight and technical competency on the part of repair direct operatives and in particular she mentioned that rp sorry rd operatives had the minimum relevant skilled accreditations which were not monitored and training
03:08:11 which were not monitored and training was not readily available and repairs direct was not part of any accreditation training or monitoring health and safety schemes and first of all would you accept those criticisms that she makes
03:08:22 criticisms that she makes uh no that's that's certainly not my recollection and my impression of that is it right to say that repairs direct operatives were only required to have minimal relevant skill accreditations
03:08:34 skill accreditations no um they would have required to have had a core apprenticeship which we would have confirmed with uh city and guilds or the appropriate accreditation body and then we often upskilled them so they they
03:08:45 we often upskilled them so they they could conduct more than one task so for example rather than having to send both an electrician and a plumber
03:08:52 plumber to do some work in a boiler we would train the plumber on how to isolate the electrics
03:08:57 electrics and make it more of what we call a multi-skill technician she charged repairs direct with having uh no monitoring of training of repairs direct operatives what would you say to that
03:09:08 what would you say to that allegation uh again i wouldn't i wouldn't agree with that we sponsored uh a number of operatives who are going through in their own time evening classes to further their skills
03:09:19 evening classes to further their skills um and when they achieve those further qualifications we expand the the the range of work that they were allocated to to put those skills to use thank you um sir i have no further
03:09:31 thank you um sir i have no further questions
03:09:32 questions um arising and the final thing for me to say is that thank you mr webb for attending to give evidence today thank you yes mr webb i'd like to thank you very much on behalf of all the members of the panel it is very helpful to us to hear
03:09:44 it is very helpful to us to hear directly from those people who were involved in these matters and in your case it's the second time around seeing you on the previous occasion so thank you very much for giving us more of your time to come and
03:09:56 of your time to come and tell us what you know i'm happy to help sir thank you very much dee well now it's all over and you're free to go thank you thank you so would you like to go with the usher she'll look after you thank you
03:10:16 yes mr quinoa well that's obviously a convenient point at which to break um i think i'm right in saying we don't have any further witnesses for today is that right that's right cern you have
03:10:28 that right that's right cern you have the opening statements in relation to the issue of smoke control tomorrow morning
03:10:32 morning yes and we shall start that at the slightly earlier time of 9 30 so we'll break now until 9 30 tomorrow morning please thanks thank you very much
03:11:01 you