Kensington & Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation Evidence - Wednesday 23rd June 2021 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:28 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear evidence from mr robert black who was formerly the chief executive

00:00:36 executive of the tmo is that right mr millett you're going to call mr black yes mr chairman good morning good morning members of the panel i now call mr black

00:00:46 mr black thank you

00:00:55 good morning mr black i understand that you're content to take the oath yeah there should be a testament there on the on the bench next to you is that right

00:01:03 right yes it is you take the book in your right hand please and repeat the words on the screen i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much

00:01:15 truth thank you very much and sit down please make yourself comfortable

00:01:25 he has to get yourself some water thank you

00:01:35 right okay when you're ready for this toilet yes chairman thank you very much mr black good morning good morning uh can i start by thanking you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting

00:01:46 for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you uh i'm going to ask you a number of questions over the course of the next three days or so if you have any difficulty understanding any of those

00:01:57 difficulty understanding any of those questions

00:01:57 questions please say and i can repeat the question or put the question in a different way can i please also ask you to keep your voice up so that the transcriber who sits to your right

00:02:08 transcriber who sits to your right can get down every word you're saying fully and completely and also ask you not to nod or shake your head but to say yes or no as the case may be because it is the words and not the gestures that go onto the transcript

00:02:20 that go onto the transcript if you feel you need a break at any point other than the scheduled breaks we will take in the customary way please just say

00:02:27 just say we'll take a break mid-morning and mid-afternoon according to the chairman now you've made a number of statements to the inquiry and i want to show you uh the one we're going to use in your examination it's on a well it's

00:02:40 in your examination it's on a well it's it's on your screen it will appear on your screen and it's dated the 8th of february 2019 at tm0508

00:02:49 at tm0508 is that the first page of your witness statement it is and it's as you can see in response to a rule 9 request of the 24th of october 2018 from the inquiry can we please go

00:03:00 2018 from the inquiry can we please go to page 35 we'll see a date there 8th of february 2019

00:03:05 2019 and a signature above the date is that your signature it is now um before i ask you whether the contents are true i believe that you have some corrections that you would wish to make to this statement is that correct that is

00:03:17 this statement is that correct that is correct let's look at first uh first please paragraph 26 on page five

00:03:26 uh it starts at the bottom of page four i think but is there a correction you would wish to make to that paragraph i think we need the bottom of page four for that please which starts

00:03:38 uh which starts tmo did not in any way manage the statutory utility companies it's on the second page page five please which c what correction

00:03:50 page five please which c what correction would you make to that it's the last line uh starting uh sorry just might have starting to provide lfb with all

00:04:02 starting to provide lfb with all information required the last sentence timo respected lf's decision not to supply documents etc that lfb did not wish to receive when i reviewed this document

00:04:13 reviewed this document apologies it's the first time i've looked in two years i couldn't quite understand what i was meaning uh and i've i really tried but i'd rather

00:04:21 rather say that i don't quite understand what i'm meaning now right say would you delete that sentence i would delete it uh page 12 please paragraph 63

00:04:38 is there a correction or change you would wish to make to that yes it is and it's on the starting res residence on

00:04:50 it's on the starting res residence on universal credit and two officers help support residents who are assessed to be vulnerable when i reviewed this i wasn't quite sure if that was right and actually i would

00:05:03 if that was right and actually i would like to change it so the two officers were tenancy support officers tenancy support officers so we had the words tenancy support between the word to the word officers

00:05:14 between the word to the word officers line and to change the word vulnerable to

00:05:17 to to to be supported in terms of areas such as asb asset anti-social behavior rent arrears

00:05:28 asset anti-social behavior rent arrears and support generally a bit more than the current neighborhood officers could supply

00:05:34 supply then paragraph 151 on page 29 i believe is a

00:05:38 is a further paragraph to which you want to make a change is that right yes again when i reviewed this

00:05:44 this and certainly since i've been preparing for today i've been looking at lots of documents and it's clear i missed the fire in 2010 at grenfell tower you missed it yeah i apologize for that

00:05:55 apologize for that i mean you forgot about it i just didn't remember it yes and then through the papers yes and then page 31

00:06:03 page 31 paragraph 165 to 167

00:06:08 i believe you have changed or changes to make to that generally again i think it's clear that when i was reading through the paperwork preparing for i've come across emails and conversations that obviously

00:06:20 and conversations that obviously show that i did know about certain things so i just like to be aware of that very good well we'll come back to that perhaps in due course when we

00:06:28 when we examine those paragraphs in the course of your evidence subject to those changes having read this statement recently

00:06:36 recently can you confirm that the contents are true yes

00:06:39 true yes have you discussed your statement to your evidence with anybody before coming here today the only person was when i i made a phone call to an ex-colleague to clarify the job title of the tennessee support

00:06:50 the job title of the tennessee support officers

00:06:51 officers i didn't discuss my evidence thank you very much now i'm going to start some questions

00:06:57 questions uh with your background and qualification and experience you you gave evidence as you will recall in september 2018 at phase one of this inquiry

00:07:07 inquiry uh you started ever you started work with the tmo i think is this right in in 2009 as chief executive officer yes may in the may yeah are you able to tell

00:07:18 may in the may yeah are you able to tell us when in the may i i was appointed in march by the panel

00:07:26 and it was supposed to be the end of may but the chief exec he was in place left before i came so they asked me to come in earlier so i imagine it'd be about the middle of may but i can't recall

00:07:37 the middle of may but i can't recall precisely

00:07:40 and this was your first chief executive role is that right yes yes can you help us with training that you received um do you have any specific professional qualifications

00:07:51 qualifications no do you have any specific health and safety

00:07:56 safety qualifications or experience not qualifications in terms of over 30 years working in housing i've had numerous health and safety courses at different levels as i've worked my

00:08:07 different levels as i've worked my through

00:08:07 through myself through the career and generally when it was lower it'd be sort of practical health and safety within a scheme or a host or whatever as i got into management it was about wider management health and safety

00:08:19 wider management health and safety responsibility and at the tmo we did training on health and safety i'd had that with my induction and before i left before the fire we'd introduced

00:08:30 introduced modules of training for all staff which included health and safety which i completed

00:08:35 completed have you had any training that deals with fire safety in a social housing management role not specifically on that matter did you get any fire safety training at circle 33 or circle

00:08:48 safety training at circle 33 or circle anglia when you were at those organizations

00:08:53 now you told us that you became uh chief executive

00:08:57 executive officer cmo of the tmo in 2009. uh did you have any fire safety training when you arrived i was introduced to janice ray who is

00:09:08 i was introduced to janice ray who is the health and safety officer manager at that time and she explained her role to me and what she was doing at that time that was my introduction what did she in a sentence

00:09:19 introduction what did she in a sentence can you tell us what she told you about her role her role was a

00:09:24 a health and safety manager for the tmo where she was advised advise the company on health and safety

00:09:31 safety fire safety now did you have any training on fire risk systems or fire risk management

00:09:42 risk systems or fire risk management systems

00:09:42 systems when you arrived and took up the job of ceo

00:09:46 ceo no no um would it follow from that you had no training on fire safety in the context of asset management or housing stock at that point or after

00:09:57 or housing stock at that point or after that

00:09:59 that in terms of when i arrived in may there was no specific training because

00:10:06 the chief executive left and i came in to pick up the reins in a sense and

00:10:14 and [Music]

00:10:17 sort of as i met people who were still there

00:10:20 there they explained their role to me so the members of the executive the men because of the senior management team what they did

00:10:26 did so it was more a narrative of what they were responsible for so i could get an understanding did you have any training uh

00:10:33 uh whether before you arrived at the tmo or after

00:10:36 after you you had arrived at the tmo on any aspect of the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 or the rro as i'm going to call it not

00:10:47 or the rro as i'm going to call it not specific training but i was informed by janice ray in terms of the work they were doing to implement that

00:10:58 to do to be clear you had no training on it but you but janice ray told you what work they were doing to implement the requirements of that legislation yes i see

00:11:09 i see i i'm going to assume that you had no training

00:11:12 training at all either before or during your entire time at the tmo and correct me if i'm wrong about this on um

00:11:19 on um something called the sleeping guide which is hm government fire safety risk assessment sleeping accommodation 2006. i'd heard about it because i was member of a national

00:11:31 it because i was member of a national federation of almost chief exec group and they had policy briefings every now and then so there were policy briefings

00:11:40 briefings from that time every now and then about the rro

00:11:43 the rro and aspects of it but it's quite brief a high level uh type of stuff and what about the lake ors housing fire safety guidance on

00:11:54 safety guidance on fire safety provisions for certain types of existing housing i can't recall that that's a 2008 publication no no uh what about pass 79 of 2012

00:12:05 no no uh what about pass 79 of 2012 there was one in 2007 as well did you ever get any any training on on that specifically i've heard of it but not any training specifically on it you've heard of it again did you get any

00:12:17 you've heard of it again did you get any policy briefings about the contents of either of those editions of that past no no and what about the lga local government association publication in the summer of 2011 fire safety and

00:12:30 the summer of 2011 fire safety and purpose built blocks of flats yes i knew about that you knew about it yeah did you did you ever get any training on it so not training so

00:12:39 so that guidance was being developed and the national federation of almost of which i was a member had a policy group which was contributing to the development of it

00:12:51 contributing to the development of it so as a chief exec group we got briefings on how that was going and then when the guidance came out we got briefings uh on that as well and i had at the time

00:13:02 uh on that as well and i had at the time reviewed the documentation who gave you the briefings on the lga that's when i was at the national federation of almost plus janus told me as well when because she would

00:13:15 told me as well when because she would be so i was going to chief exec level and there was also a policy group at the national federation of almost which she would go to and since then she would get similar briefings probably a bit more detail were these briefings in paper form that

00:13:26 were these briefings in paper form that you could read at your leisure or such as you know presentation type stuff there might have been some papers at the time as well now what about something called pass seven from 2013 do

00:13:37 something called pass seven from 2013 do you remember have any having any training on that no i haven't had any training on that again did was that something which you knew about or had any uh high level briefings on i can't recall at the moment

00:13:49 can't recall at the moment um did you get any training specifically on the role of the responsible person under the rro or who that was uh i think in random not me induction where

00:14:00 i think in random not me induction where i had an induction but when going through and understanding the company

00:14:05 company i began to understand the role of the responsible person and as we developed a health and safety statement that was the role i was to take on within the company i see did you have any training either

00:14:17 see did you have any training either well you were i think already at the tma on the lessons to be learnt from the lachenal house fire in camberwell in the summer of 2009. i would have picked that up

00:14:30 i would have picked that up i'm sure they must have been a briefing at the tmo but i obviously picked that up at different areas i went so i was also a member of the national federation of housing and attended

00:14:41 housing and attended ins cih which is chartered institute of housing

00:14:45 housing there was quite a lot of briefings at that time on that subject yes did you ever receive any training on or ever read any briefings in respect

00:14:56 on or ever read any briefings in respect of fire risk assessments i knew about fire risk assessments and the principle of them but i i didn't that was something that

00:15:07 that was something that janus was involved in in developing for the company you say janice was involved in

00:15:13 in did did in your role as ceo did you have an overall supervisory position in respect of her work in relation to fras no janice i don't know if it's useful

00:15:25 no janice i don't know if it's useful in terms of when i joined explain the structure and what happened so when i joined quite a lot of people left soon after i janis was health and safety manager

00:15:38 i janis was health and safety manager and i linked her in with lynette pemberton who was health hr manager and as quite soon after that lynette became a member executive in terms of

00:15:49 terms of responsible for uh training and development in hr and because of there was very few other people about and because

00:16:00 and because of lynette's role i linked janet janice into that role so she was managed by lynette pemberton

00:16:11 let's look at the governance uh then uh you uh deal with your appointment in your witness statement uh on page two if we can go to that please paragraph 11

00:16:23 please paragraph 11 that's where it starts

00:16:26 and at paragraph 12 you say that you were interviewed by tmo board members and rbkc's executive director of housing and environment do you remember which board members interviewed you specifically

00:16:37 interviewed you specifically um

00:16:44 it was a mixture of resonance and independence i'm afraid i can't remember individuals at that time i there would have been a leaseholder who was a board member and there would have been a tenant

00:16:56 there would have been a tenant and i think there was two independents [Music]

00:17:00 [Music] the chair would have been there i'm just trying to remember how many that it comes up to and you say you were interviewed by rbkc's executive director of housing and environment was that laura johnson no that was jean

00:17:13 was that laura johnson no that was jean dente

00:17:15 dente who was at that time the executive director of house in social services and environmental now as ceo you reported to the board is that right

00:17:23 right yes and the board was a non-executive board is that right yes and that meant that it didn't get involved in the day-to-day management of the tmo

00:17:30 the tmo yes that was your job yes yeah and the board was reliant on news it's right for accurate

00:17:35 accurate timely and complete information about what was happening in the business yes yeah now if you go on to paragraph 13 at the foot of page two you say when i joined there were a number of concerns

00:17:47 number of concerns raised both at my interview by the panel and once i was formally in position just pausing there who was it do you remember who raised the concerns in your interview was it tmo was it rbkc

00:17:59 tmo was it rbkc no i think you have to go back to the beginning so when i applied for the job the rule was being managed by a set of consultants i think it was veridis so i applied and then i got they

00:18:10 so i applied and then i got they contacted me and said they wanted to do a long list interviews call so we had a telephone conversation i then had a sort of informal meeting with the consultants who were running it

00:18:21 with the consultants who were running it and they whittled down through that process the number of candidates they wanted to take to the board through that process they were telling you

00:18:31 you about the organization it's a tenant management organization a membership organization uh this and that by how it got three stars excellent from the

00:18:42 the audit commission but they were also raising in terms of issues that had been coming through in terms of

00:18:49 terms of performance not being great concerns rbkc had about its performance so that they're trying to paint a picture to be fair so that you don't go in blind

00:19:00 fair so that you don't go in blind when you actually when i got shortlisted for the final interview in front of the panel

00:19:05 panel you were giving a test basically to here's the issues come up with a six-month improvement plan so you basically had to look at their

00:19:15 their business their finances and then come up and do a small presentation in front of the panel

00:19:20 the panel and then they ask you questions and then that was the end of that part of the interview and then you were uh

00:19:27 uh sort of uh went away and then they decided to pick you right i i actually asked you just who it was

00:19:34 was uh who who had raised these concerns i'm not sure you've actually answered apology so some concerns were raised by the consultants on behalf of the company as they were telling candidates and then the panel it would have been

00:19:45 and then the panel it would have been the chair

00:19:47 the chair as you went through the process explained the circumstances and then you had to prepare the presentation based on that right now paragraph 14 of your statement you list the issues you get page three and you list them as

00:20:01 you get page three and you list them as uh governance the repair service general kpi performance resident engagement customer complaints and overall satisfaction asset management

00:20:13 satisfaction asset management and overall relationship with rbkc now i just want to focus if i can for a moment on

00:20:19 on the words customer complaints and overall satisfaction

00:20:26 given that customer complaints and overall satisfaction was expressly part of your remit did you regard it as your responsibility from the start to get to the bottom of

00:20:38 from the start to get to the bottom of what was causing any dissatisfaction and to understand its causes i think it was my role to understand as you say causation of why it was happening so i needed to

00:20:49 of why it was happening so i needed to understand some of the history i then had to understand i because there's a

00:20:54 there's a key link between customer satisfaction customers

00:20:58 customers feeling and satisfaction my previous job at circle

00:21:01 at circle as exec director of customer services we did a huge amount of work on that so complaints is only one aspect of customer satisfaction that's the negative end but there's lots of stuff

00:21:11 of stuff in between that actually drives what makes the customer the resident happy with the service so i think that's one of the things why you know they we spent a lot of time

00:21:22 you know they we spent a lot of time looking at that they also explained there had been a report which i didn't really know about until from our rbkc had commissioned someone

00:21:33 from our rbkc had commissioned someone to do a report i think from complaints from leaseholders i can't remember the name of the author is that the mammalia that's the one yeah we're going to come to that in detail i've heard of that but didn't haven't seen it

00:21:45 seen it so yeah i think those two things driving uh understanding your customer so i think the answer is yes yes thank you

00:21:55 you can i take it given the your answer being yes that you were at all times familiar

00:21:59 familiar with the detailed terms of the tmos complaints policy and procedures yes yes and without going to it we can if you want to would you agree that it cast the tmo as

00:22:11 would you agree that it cast the tmo as a service provider and the resident has a customer yes yes rather like a consumer relationship yes yes did you also understand however that the tmo was not just providing a

00:22:22 that the tmo was not just providing a consumer service but people's homes of course yeah and and given that the tma was providing people with homes did you understand that it was it was reasonable for them to expect to repose a high degree of trust in the tmo

00:22:37 yes yes and particularly when it came to safety

00:22:41 safety in their homes yes yes yes so this wasn't just about having satisfied customers but having residents who could trust you utterly to keep them safe in their homes i would say that's in every job i've done

00:22:53 say that's in every job i've done not just a team and would you also say that if they felt unsafe in their homes particularly in numbers that would tend to indicate to you

00:23:03 to you a fundamental perhaps existential problem with the tma no no no you wouldn't i i suppose if

00:23:15 this year you've gone on to this and since there's background to stuff which i don't know if you're going to come on to in terms of what the tmo is i'm just asking you as a general proposition would you accept as a

00:23:26 proposition would you accept as a general proposition given that you were the ceo that if people felt unsafe in their homes at least in numbers then that would tend to indicate a fundamental

00:23:37 to indicate a fundamental and perhaps existential problem with the way the tmo was working i'm not sure if i agree with that right

00:23:46 [Applause] well we'll see how that plays out later um can we go to paragraph 23 of your witness statement on page four [Music]

00:23:59 [Music] uh you

00:24:02 uh you you say there uh the tma was a non-specialist organization uh typical of uh can you contribute to the social housing management

00:24:13 management paragraph you're talking about sorry 23 23. i'm sorry i i'm reading from the wrong one it's my fault page four paragraph 23 the company was therefore a resident-led organization with a majority of local

00:24:25 organization with a majority of local tenants on its board to manage the council's housing stock the board of tmo operated independently of rbkc except on matters relating to the housing revenue account hra with an internal audit process

00:24:36 hra with an internal audit process commissioned by the tmo board and conducted by external auditors and how is the tmos independence restricted in relation to the hra

00:24:49 so the hra was a house in revenue account which is a local authority account which the rents went into up until 2012 the hra was managed by the

00:25:00 up until 2012 the hra was managed by the government so the rents went into a central account and then

00:25:04 and then the government gave each local authority a grant

00:25:08 a grant so the local authority depending on where you are didn't always get the same amount of money that raised through the rents so

00:25:15 rents so say so that's key and then because it was run by the government it would only give you a grant per year so it's very local

00:25:27 a grant per year so it's very local authorities of where they operate it's very difficult for long-term planning when you're getting a one-year grant which you don't know the amount and completely different from the the

00:25:38 and completely different from the the housing association sector where you generally worked on three year five year and 30 year plans because you knew your income coming in so the way we were affected is

00:25:50 so the way we were affected is the rbkc didn't know how much money it would get each year therefore actually teamwork didn't know how much money would get until the local authority knew and

00:26:01 until the local authority knew and because of local authority the way they're funded and legalized they they they can't commit until they know how much money they have

00:26:10 they have so what it means is instead of getting knowing well before when your financial year starts in first of april that you've got say three million you might not get the government grant to june so therefore actually all rbkc could do

00:26:22 so therefore actually all rbkc could do is within its terms of how it had to legally operate is give you an indication of how much money you would receive so it's a very difficult within all local authorities

00:26:33 local authorities to plan long term in terms of investment the impact on that historically is you you get very low investment across local authority housing

00:26:45 authority housing until the labor government introduced decent homes and decent homes is based on a recognition that local authority housing hadn't had investment required compared to other sectors

00:26:57 to other sectors and that meant things like kitchens windows

00:27:01 windows bathrooms had deteriorated and people weren't living in great condition so decent homes was a direct grant to actually identify programs investment in social housing

00:27:12 in social housing in england i'm forgiven for interrupting you and you may have come to the end of your answer does this tell us that when you say the ball of tmo operated independently of rbkc

00:27:22 rbkc except on matters relating to housing revenue account you mean there that the the the board of the tmo

00:27:28 the tmo and indeed the whole tmo depended on our bkc

00:27:32 bkc for money coming from the housing revenue account yes yes um i i'm slightly more interested in operational matters though um is it the case that the board of the tmo

00:27:43 tmo uh would not operate independently of rbkc

00:27:47 rbkc in respect of money coming from the housing revenue account when making decisions

00:27:53 decisions well the the board of the tmo was depending

00:27:57 depending on rbkc providing it with its management fee

00:28:00 fee therefore the tmo had to if it given an indication then had to base its service and its delivery on the money that would be given to it

00:28:11 be given to it so yeah we as a board they couldn't go and order things without knowing those income come in yeah they had however stuff they did outside that which they

00:28:22 stuff they did outside that which they had reserved so they had their own results as a company which they'd built up over a number of years uh

00:28:28 years uh but in terms of they they haven't really used them

00:28:31 used them really what i'm seeking to tease out here is whether you're actually saying that the decision-making process at board level within the tmo when it came to the housing revenue

00:28:43 when it came to the housing revenue account was not independent of rbkc yes thank you now um you go on to say uh uh in well let's go look at paragraph 29

00:28:54 uh in well let's go look at paragraph 29 at page five and we could take this i think quite quickly

00:29:02 page five paragraph 29 you uh you say all day-to-day operations of tma were managed by an executive team who reported to me as chief executive supported by three executive director

00:29:13 supported by three executive director they were executive director for operations financial services and ict and people performance and governance although they had the title executive director like me they were not statutory directors

00:29:24 directors now um you've identified the individuals there although you don't say it it's right isn't it that barbara matthews uh was executive director of financial service and ict

00:29:36 service and ict from july 2015 wasn't she yes yes and she was responsible for health and safety and in particular fire safety wasn't she yes was there a particular logic for health

00:29:47 was there a particular logic for health and safety being covered by the finance and ict

00:29:49 and ict director i i had a small team and when i looked at that team

00:29:56 that team i had to it the team had changed so it reduced in size and we had to then look at the portfolio stuff that people had so i had to look at workloads

00:30:07 people had so i had to look at workloads responsibility and and how they would manage it and when we looked barbara uh was quite a good fit for in terms of

00:30:18 was quite a good fit for in terms of actually her rule in terms of actually uh how how much capacity she had to take on what was barbara matthews's background

00:30:30 what was barbara matthews's background was it financial service ict or or health and safety it was a range of background i mean her background as far as i could remember she worked in the when she was younger in the sort of

00:30:41 when she was younger in the sort of private sector a range of rules and then moved into the housing sector she told me that she'd had had a wide brief in certain organizations before i can't

00:30:52 in certain organizations before i can't remember specifically if she said she'd manage health and safety right did you recruit barbara matthews yourself she was a she was recruited i'm just trying to remember sorry

00:31:03 remember sorry yes i would have been part of the team who recruited her yeah did you check her experience uh of fire risk management as part of the process uh to recruit her not specifically why

00:31:14 uh to recruit her not specifically why not

00:31:15 not why didn't you i it just didn't come up right

00:31:24 did you know or do you now know whether she had any previous responsibility for fire

00:31:28 fire risk management in a senior role i can't remember

00:31:32 remember right did you ask her i can't remember that long ago i'm sorry did do you know whether she had any experience of managing health and safety more generally in the context of social housing stock

00:31:44 in the context of social housing stock i

00:31:49 i'm not sure right can you we've heard her evidence can you account for having a head of health and safety who had no health and safety background

00:32:00 health and safety background i can't because i've worked in other places other organizations where health and safety sits under executive director i've not worked in an organization where health and safety is a sole focus of an executive role and

00:32:13 a sole focus of an executive role and executive directors tend to have broad portfolios depending on their on their their management so in sense they're managing specialists it doesn't mean they're specialists themselves

00:32:25 specialists themselves yes that wasn't quite an answer to my question can you account for having a head of health and safety in effect who had no health and safety background because i

00:32:34 because i appointed them well that's because we didn't

00:32:37 didn't we did when we recruited we were recruiting i'm trying to remember

00:32:46 why didn't you recruit someone specifically with a health and safety background because i didn't to have a specific role i wouldn't have had the income to be able to have someone sitting at

00:32:58 able to have someone sitting at executive

00:32:59 executive specifically doing health and safety

00:33:02 i can't remember to we i mean i can't remember the details from recruiting or apologies so it may have been in the park or the the questioning but that's quite a long time ago

00:33:12 time ago it sounds from your answer and you say i wouldn't have had the income to be able to have someone sitting specifically doing health and safety that it was this was a question of money

00:33:23 that it was this was a question of money i think there's a question so can you so is that right yes it's a question of money because in terms of an organization has to live within its means and in the sense of between 2009 and continuing

00:33:37 between 2009 and continuing local authority funding across the country

00:33:41 country and with everybody has been cut so therefore i didn't have a big enough budget to have specific health and safety role on my executive did you what

00:33:52 did you what i wanted was an executive director to manage my health and safety management right

00:33:56 right miss black it sounds to me tell me if this is right or not that you regarded the

00:34:00 the role of executive director as one which required

00:34:06 required general managerial experience without any specific experience of the departments under under its responsibility yes

00:34:20 under its responsibility yes yes thank you did you ask or think of asking rbkc uh for more money so that you could recruit somebody with a specific health and safety background

00:34:33 i the situation of the tmo that the year i took over because of the degree to five percent cut with rbkc that the company lost 500 000 because they hadn't

00:34:46 lost 500 000 because they hadn't although they did agree to cut the executive board hadn't agreed how to finance that cut so really after that the tmo you know then had to legally have a small circle

00:34:58 then had to legally have a small circle so we worked on producing each year within the management for your place of 36 000 in terms of asking rbkc for more money you know we were lucky within the sector

00:35:10 you know we were lucky within the sector that in general for a management fee went up 1

00:35:13 went up 1 while across the sector with the colleagues i worked with people were experiencing five ten fifteen percent cut per year this was

00:35:21 was what was happening in local authorities just with across lots of other uh statutory services yes this is 2009 i think is what you say in your

00:35:32 2009 i think is what you say in your answer what about in 2015

00:35:36 in 2015 did you think 2015 i think we we had a cut of 2

00:35:40 cut of 2 to our budget

00:35:43 now um let's look at tmo's health and safety policy from july 2010 tmo 1.0031078 please

00:35:58 1.0031078 please uh this is a document which at the very foot of the page and the foot of your screen mr black you can see your name as chief executive and the date july 2010 yes

00:36:09 2010 yes yes uh and uh it's entitled health and safety policy uh section one statement of intent it's a document that runs for some eight pages

00:36:20 runs for some eight pages uh it has your name at the bottom as you can see

00:36:23 can see and if you look at the second paragraph it says this the legal operational and financial responsibility for the management of health and safety rests with the chief executive of the tmo and

00:36:34 tmo and each head of division and manager is responsible for the implementation execution control and monitoring of this policy

00:36:42 policy now you would agree is this right that that meant that you were ultimately responsible for health and safety and in particular fire safety at the tma yes yes what did you understand to be

00:36:53 yes yes what did you understand to be your responsibilities as chief executive in respect of health and safety in general and fire safety in particular in general i recognized i needed a

00:37:04 in general i recognized i needed a competent person within the organization and that was janice ray and sorry about your second part there and fire safety in particular and janice

00:37:16 and fire safety in particular and janice ray's position covered fire safety as well say is your answer that your responsibility was to make sure you had someone who was sufficiently experienced and uh

00:37:28 who was sufficiently experienced and uh expert in

00:37:29 expert in health and safety in general and fire safety in particular yes yes and how did you ensure that the health and safety policy in contained in this document was implemented

00:37:40 implemented i it went

00:37:43 i it went to oh well so i had an overall structure so we had policies in place how we delivered it was through our organizational structure in terms of actually appropriate people

00:37:55 in terms of actually appropriate people with skills we uh sorry just a second had plans in place we measured

00:38:09 had plans in place we measured we reported and we audited plans measured reported audited and having the right people yeah and the people were

00:38:20 people were key for me and how did you yourself as ceo monitor the carrying out of this health and safety policy

00:38:31 safety policy in those respects in the sense we had a corporate health and safety committee which jan has reported into and that the range of people who

00:38:42 range of people who attended because of the rules and responsibility and those people would then cascade rules and responsibilities through their teams

00:38:55 through their teams now if we go to the fourth paragraph it says this the tma will ensure that all persons are competent to carry out the duties asked of them and will provide adequate information instruction training and necessary supervision it will provide an in-company appointed

00:39:07 it will provide an in-company appointed health and safety professional who will be responsible for providing advice on all health and safety and welfare matters

00:39:13 matters uh you as the chief executive of the tmo were responsible once you for ensuring the competence of all staff in this respect [Applause] in the sense of i wouldn't recruit every

00:39:26 in the sense of i wouldn't recruit every individual but in the principle of when jobs are advertised they went through a professional process depending on the level might be with consultants with their job description uh and in terms of through interview

00:39:38 uh and in terms of through interview yeah so

00:39:39 yeah so i delicate the through my manager my executive team my senior management team and my management team when they did those uh recruitment

00:39:50 when they did those uh recruitment and do you agree that it was your responsibility to ensure that staff received adequate training instruction and supervision yes did the tma plan any system to ensure or check that staff did receive

00:40:02 ensure or check that staff did receive adequate instruction training and supervision in the sense the system was the responsibility for each manager to assess their member of staff

00:40:11 staff we had a training budget we had the director of organizational development and we had each year assessment of staff with training needs and that those training needs could vary

00:40:22 and that those training needs could vary depending on the rule and that was included in each budget in the last sentence as i've read to you there's the reference there to an in-company appointed health and safety

00:40:33 in-company appointed health and safety professional responsible for providing advice on all health safety and welfare matters who was that person when you uh drafted this policy in or signed this policy in

00:40:44 policy in july 2010 a janet janus ray and it could also be my uh hr director in terms of actually there's a lot of stuff there

00:40:56 there's a lot of stuff there that could actually fall into uh managing the welfare of your staff i see and the hr director was at that time it was a lynette pemberton that's

00:41:07 time it was a lynette pemberton that's pemberton was it and then it changed i think after that yeah there was a few after which i can't remember all the names right i did they were all professionally recruited did the role

00:41:19 recruited did the role of in company appointed health and safety professional at least that occupied by janice ray include

00:41:25 include providing advice uh on [Music]

00:41:29 [Music] fire safety matters yes it did and what about fire safety on capital projects like major refurbishments that would sit in a sense so janice

00:41:40 that would sit in a sense so janice wrote is that she would give advice to teams when asked or if she needed to but within capital teens that was a responsibility of the people employed to manage it also in terms of to recruit

00:41:52 to manage it also in terms of to recruit contractors who actually met with all health and safety legislation right now janice ray wasn't on the executive team was she no why was she not on the executive team

00:42:05 no why was she not on the executive team at any stage so i had an exec senior manager and janice uh

00:42:12 well you you don't just put people on the executive team so in terms of janna she was managed by the executive director she came to executive she came to board

00:42:25 executive she came to board she went to senior management team she was someone in terms of had a wider rule that she didn't go to she didn't attend senior management team meetings

00:42:34 meetings she did when she was required you say she did do you know why she wasn't part of the senior management team level though before i

00:42:45 team level though before i i while i was preparing for this i thought she was but i think when i remember back to the discussions about the scope of her role is in terms of she managed one person it grew to two whereas most of

00:42:57 person it grew to two whereas most of the senior managers had a wider portfolio

00:43:00 portfolio [Music]

00:43:02 [Music] i don't think it didn't downgrade her rule in my eyes or anybody that i spoke to well do you accept that had she been part of senior management

00:43:13 had she been part of senior management as opposed to reporting to senior management she might have been able to influence

00:43:17 influence the decisions that senior management was taking and the way they reported to the board

00:43:22 board and indeed at joint management meetings with rbkc

00:43:25 with rbkc influenced the direction of travel there janice uh i don't agree with that i think janice was influential with an organization and could influence i think it's in your management team

00:43:36 i think it's in your management team would be stupid to know the advice of your health and safety manager well that may be but there's a difference between advice and reporting on the one hand of being in the room as it were isn't there

00:43:47 in the room as it were isn't there making the actual decisions again i would have to see the context now let's look at the interaction between tmo and rbkc in terms of health

00:43:58 between tmo and rbkc in terms of health and safety uh i'd like to show you um tmo10037442

00:44:06 at page 38 uh this is an excerpt from a tmo health and safety annual report from 2009 to 2010 and it's dated july 2010 and at page 38

00:44:19 dated july 2010 and at page 38 is rather in the middle of it rather at the beginning of it but in the middle of the document um i'll just show you page 52 so that i um we can be clear together that it's

00:44:30 um we can be clear together that it's signed by janice ray there is her name at the foot of that page as you can see and if we go back to page 38 you'll see under part two section two which is

00:44:41 under part two section two which is health and safety relationship between tmo and rbkc it says this 2.1 the tmo is the managing agent for kensington and chelsea's council

00:44:50 council housing stock the council retains ownership of the stock and as such retains some responsibilities for the health and safety of the residents and their homes therefore for the purposes of the enforcing body the health and safety

00:45:01 enforcing body the health and safety executive

00:45:02 executive the responsibilities would be considered to be joint and then 2-2 for example compliance with the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005

00:45:11 2005 is operationally delegated to the tmo however in the event of a breach of these regulations the london fire brigade would consider the tmo and the council

00:45:20 council to be jointly liable for the breach and would serve enforcement notices on or pursue prosecution against both and then under 2.3 the council monitors the tmos health and

00:45:31 the council monitors the tmos health and safety performance in order to satisfy itself that we are complying with our statutory responsibilities adhering to best practice and ensuring the best possible environment for the residents to live in and for our

00:45:42 for the residents to live in and for our employees and contractors to work in specifically the council's corporate health and safety advisor and the health and safety advisor from housing health and adult social care receive copies of the minutes from

00:45:54 receive copies of the minutes from regular h committee meetings and also this annual report additionally the tmo health and safety advisor attends the council's six-weekly health and safety main coordinating

00:46:05 health and safety main coordinating committee finally the council is notified promptly of any major incidents accidents or significant near-misses and is informed of progress on ongoing investigations

00:46:16 and then it goes on about meetings now to be clear i read that to you at some length to refresh your memory of the document but to be clear compliance with the rro the 2005 legislation was operationally

00:46:29 the 2005 legislation was operationally delegated to the tmo yes that's what it says operationally operationally does that mean that operationally the tmo was responsible for health and safety

00:46:38 safety in the housing stock

00:46:41 yes yeah but rbkc could still be liable to prosecution under the rro is that how you understood it yes yes so so far as you understood it is it right

00:46:52 is it right that rbkc shared the tmo's view that it was jointly responsible under the rro

00:46:58 the rro and at risk of prosecution for its contravention yes yes now when you became chief executive officer at the tmo um can you remember what you whether you

00:47:09 um can you remember what you whether you had an understanding of the the role and the ambit of the role of the responsible person under article 3 of the rro yes

00:47:21 under article 3 of the rro yes what was that understanding

00:47:26 as a responsible person i was responsible to upon competent people to carry out my health and safety which is janus

00:47:37 and to ensure safety sorry it's not a great answer did you ever

00:47:44 ever discuss with janice ray as the competent person appointed you say um what the role of competent person was under the rra itself

00:47:55 was under the rra itself i can't recall specifically that so when you use the word competent person are you meaning it in the context of that expression as used in the legislation or are you using it in a general sense i was using in in

00:48:06 in a general sense i was using in in terms of the way it's expressed between the responsible person and competent person

00:48:10 person you had an understanding at the time of the distinction between the two did you yeah

00:48:13 yeah did you ever discuss with janice ray coming back to the question about what her

00:48:17 her role as competent person involved

00:48:22 i i can't recall specifically sorry no would do you accept that the tmo as the responsible person was required by the rro and in particular article 11

00:48:34 and in particular article 11 to make arrangements and give effects to arrangements for effective planning organization control monitoring monitoring and review yeah yeah and and also

00:48:45 and review yeah yeah and and also protective and preventative measures yes yes and does that mean to your way of understanding it at the time that the tmo had to put in place an arrangement or protocol procedures

00:48:57 an arrangement or protocol procedures processes

00:48:58 processes to manage the risk of fire in its stock yes yes

00:49:01 yes yes and that do you agree that that arrangement needed to set out in writing how it would be that the tmo would plan organize control monitor and review preventative and protective fire

00:49:12 review preventative and protective fire safety measures yes yes yes who was it in in the tma who was responsible for um deciding that arrangement designing that arrangement i would

00:49:25 designing that arrangement i would depend on janus to do that and i know from 2009 she worked on the virus strategy for the company which uh covered the wide range of areas from 2009 do you say when she started

00:49:38 from 2009 do you say when she started working it came into place in 2013 i think

00:49:42 think and it's been reviewed in 2016. so you say she started working on the fire uh safety strategy or fire risk strategies you call it in 2009. yeah it took four years to come through

00:49:53 yeah it took four years to come through at the same time we'd also address the whole things round uh fire risk assessments so in those four years we had agreed with the fire began

00:50:04 we had agreed with the fire began because i think previously before i came she

00:50:07 she was the one like a lot of other organizations carrying out the fire risk assessment since the regulation had changed in 2006.

00:50:15 2006. i think the fire brigade hadn't been happy with that and therefore in 20910 we

00:50:21 we employed carol stokes to carry out their high risk so between that there's quite a lot of conversation between rbkc and the tmo to make the council

00:50:33 and the tmo to make the council and board aware of all these issues and ultimately that's how we move to having a fire consultant and carrying out the fire risk assessments across higher the high medium and low blocks

00:50:45 higher the high medium and low blocks over the three years specifically i think do you agree that the arrangement that we've just discussed as required by the rro to cover all those uh aspects of it was

00:50:58 uh aspects of it was the fire risk strategy or fire safety strategy

00:51:02 strategy and that was janna's role janice ray's role was it yeah right um were you well do you accept that you were ultimately responsible for ensuring that such a document which covered those matters was in place yes yes

00:51:18 do you know or did you require janice ray

00:51:22 ray i think that's the person to use any particular sources of guidance when developing the fire safety strategy well i think she would have as far as i recall

00:51:32 recall because everybody was in the same position across the whole of england when it changed trying to be uh understand what was required so i think there's quite a lot of consultation with the london fire

00:51:43 of consultation with the london fire brigade

00:51:43 brigade on the former i think there's a best practice format which i believe she used is it paz sorry well it's past 2007 and then after 2012 paz so i think past

00:51:57 and then after 2012 paz so i think past 79 of 2007 and then paz 79 2012. so in terms of she developed that

00:52:04 that i think she would have also gone to forums and in policy forums where people were doing the same thing and then we used carl stokes uh who to check and sign off with the fire

00:52:16 who to check and sign off with the fire began

00:52:17 began just be a little bit more specific um did you

00:52:21 did you require or check perhaps that janice ray when developing the fire safety strategy to cover the obligations of the responsible person under article 11 was using pass 79 in either the

00:52:35 was using pass 79 in either the 2007 or 2012 editions did you check

00:52:42 i'm not sure if i specifically checked that but i'm sure we include it in our health and safety statement in that year uh not health and safety health and safety report that year really my question is did you leave it

00:52:54 really my question is did you leave it to her to discover her for herself what the guidance should be when developing that strategy or did you give her any help i think she did it and i was there if she required help

00:53:06 and did she come to you and ask for help or did she didn't come and ask with me no

00:53:10 no we probably discussed it over the the time let's look at the uh pass number seven past seven uh which is 2013. it's a bsi six zeros seven

00:53:24 it's a bsi six zeros seven one please uh and this is entitled fire risk management system specification

00:53:34 is this a document uh that you asked janice ray to use when developing the fire safety strategy or um

00:53:45 the fire safety strategy or um guided her in the direction of no no are you familiar with this document at all no right well let's see how we go with it page 20 please paragraph 6.2.2.1

00:53:59 please paragraph 6.2.2.1 under fire safety competence it says this the organization shall employ or contract

00:54:03 contract with people who are competent on the basis of education training skills and experience for the tasks assigned to them then if you cast your eye down to paragraph 6.3 which is at the bottom

00:54:14 to paragraph 6.3 which is at the bottom of the screen there awareness persons doing work under the organization's control should be aware of a the fire safety policy b their contribution to the effectiveness of the frms including the

00:54:26 effectiveness of the frms including the benefits of improved fire safety performance c the implications of not conforming with the frms requirements d any risks to them arising from or in connection with the work they are intended to do

00:54:40 the work they are intended to do were you aware at any time between 2009 and 2017 of any of the principles i've read to you from this page no no uh

00:54:53 no no uh can we look at section 8 of pass 7 2013 at page 25 please

00:55:01 i'm going to read a chunk of this to you this is 8.3 management review 8.3.1 top management shall review the organization's frms fire risk management strategy

00:55:14 fire risk management strategy at planned intervals to ensure its continuing suitability adequacy and effectiveness and then there are two notes underneath that

00:55:22 that note one reviews should include assessing opportunities for improvement and the need for changes to the management system including the policy and objectives note two a mod

00:55:31 two a mod a model pro forma for a management review procedure is provided in annex j and then it goes on at 8.3.2 the management review shall include consideration of a the status of actions

00:55:43 consideration of a the status of actions from previous management reviews b changes in external and internal issues

00:55:48 issues that are relevant to the frms see information on the fire safety performance including trends in one non-conformities and corrective actions

00:55:57 actions two monitoring measurement and measurement results three audit results four interested party feedback five evaluation of compliance with legal and other requirements and then d opportunities and recommendations

00:56:09 then d opportunities and recommendations for continual improvement eight point three point three the outputs of the management review shall include decisions related to a continual improvement opportunities b improvement related to interested party

00:56:20 improvement related to interested party requirements c resource needs to enable improvement to the frms and its processes and d any need for changes to the frms and then there's another note and then uh 8.3.4

00:56:32 uh 8.3.4 uh relates to the maintenance of records from management reviews now i've read that at length i'm afraid uh because uh i i i don't know whether you're familiar with it but um i'm assuming you're not

00:56:43 with it but um i'm assuming you're not familiar with this not that detail now what about the principles contained in that i understand some of the principles right now according to this guidance the tmo should have had you agree

00:56:54 tmo should have had you agree a system in place at all times and certainly from 2013 when pass seven was published which allowed for a management review as opposed to an external review or audit

00:57:06 external review or audit of its fire risk management systems at planned intervals do you agree yes yes did the tmo have such a system in place

00:57:17 i would say we did have a system in parts

00:57:21 parts probably not as laid out as that right so in terms of fire risk assessments were carried out across the stock over the three years the results were

00:57:33 over the three years the results were fed into the health and safety committee who reviewed them if there were changes or

00:57:40 or improvements in terms of how we worked that was built into our operational areas and they were checked through audits

00:57:49 audits management checks etc

00:57:53 well um yes we'll come to that later my question is looking at 8.3.2 uh did you have a a review by

00:58:06 uh did you have a a review by top management including you of the tmos frms at planned intervals no no so therefore it would follow

00:58:17 no no so therefore it would follow wouldn't it that none of the considerations required by a management review at 8.3.2 uh were ever undertaken

00:58:28 uh were ever undertaken no i think there were i mean we had improvements so so again we brought in fire risk assessments across the three areas between 9 2009 2012 which met the target

00:58:42 2012 which met the target we agreed with the fire brigade in rbkc i the outcome of those works were fed into the health and safety

00:58:53 were fed into the health and safety and uh

00:58:58 well if if there was no top management review of the organization's frms at planned intervals then it would follow wouldn't it that the management review

00:59:10 the management review which is identified at 8.3.2 never occurred

00:59:17 agree yeah and therefore under 8.3.2 point c there was never a management review by top management at planned interview intervals of any of the matters in a

00:59:30 intervals of any of the matters in a through to d in that subsection i think there would have been reviews but not as specifically laid out as that right

00:59:39 and there was no internal audit of fire safety performance or fire safety management itself was there there was internal order of health and safety which included fire safety but i don't think specifically over time

00:59:51 but i don't think specifically over time it was it was pulled out as an individual one right and the internal audit uh i'm asking you about is tmo's internal audit by tmo's own management

01:00:05 internal audit by tmo's own management there was did that occur we don't i don't think we see any evidence of that right we know that there were a number of external audits but only one of those

01:00:17 external audits but only one of those specifically addressed the tmos fire risk management system and that was the salva's audit in 2009. do you agree with that yes yes and we'll come back to that shortly can i go then to the topic

01:00:30 that shortly can i go then to the topic of corporate risk um the tmo is it right that the tmo as an organization was familiar with the concept of risk or corporate risk yes it's a broad

01:00:41 risk or corporate risk yes it's a broad question but you agree and it had a corporate risk map didn't it yes yeah um i think we can look at an example of this from

01:00:49 this from from february 2017 so quite late on and this is a tmo one double zero four nine nine zero six

01:00:59 uh it's not a particularly easy document to see we'll need to blow it up but if we look at risk number one um and if you can't read it mr black i apologize and i'll do no i think i'll read it to you but risk number one is is failure to

01:01:11 but risk number one is is failure to comply with statute and regulation procurement legislation data protection equality and diversity financial and internal controls safeguarding bribery and fraud

01:01:25 safeguarding bribery and fraud now do you agree that it isn't any surprise that the tma recognized failure to comply with statute

01:01:34 statute and regulation as a risk yes yes and if we look at the risk identified and explanation column which is the fourth one along it's in the gray band it says

01:01:47 it's in the gray band it says poor organizational governance leads to failings in the areas of substantial or sustained breach of statutory or regulatory obligations failure to appoint the right contractors

01:01:58 failure to appoint the right contractors limits ability to deliver programs listed risk of contractor challenge with financial penalties risk of under recovery of leasehold or service charges legal challenges can result from poor

01:02:09 legal challenges can result from poor financial controls and poor safeguarding issues

01:02:12 issues reputational damage can arise from mismanagement of any of these issues now the first point there that for poor organizational governance leads to substantial or sustained breach of statutory

01:02:23 statutory or regulatory obligations you would accept that that was a risk yes yes and and the reverse could be true too the breach of statutory or regulatory obligations may arise

01:02:34 regulatory obligations may arise through poor organizational governance yes yes

01:02:37 yes yes the second point there failure to appoint the right contractors um presumably you were aware of the need to control that as a risk yes yes how did the tmo ensure that it did appoint the right

01:02:48 that it did appoint the right contractors when it came to fire safety specifically

01:02:57 are you sorry i mean individual parts that cover fire safety because or so in principle contracts as we recruited through formal processes uh

01:03:10 usually supported by consultants to make sure they're meeting their legal obligations so in terms of like a repairs company or a capital investment company so when we did those procurements then

01:03:22 so when we did those procurements then we go through a process where those aspects which should be picked up by the

01:03:29 by the process and the consultants managing it to make sure the appropriate company for the company did that process include specifically any examination of the contractor's experience

01:03:40 experience skill expertise or any training in areas of fire safety i would have thought so but you don't know not off the top of my head looking at risk number five uh if we can

01:03:51 looking at risk number five uh if we can just scroll down please failure of health and safety in relation to services that we deliver to residents staff in the work environment and contractors in the delivery of works

01:04:02 contractors in the delivery of works would you agree that that includes fire safety as a subset yes yes and under the column risk identified an explanation the uh the the fourth one along if we can just go to that um you can see that uh

01:04:14 go to that um you can see that uh it says serious injury or death of a resident staff member contractor customer

01:04:18 customer or member of the public potential prosecution by health and safety executive

01:04:22 executive excluding terrorist activity and to put it bluntly the consequences of a failure to manage health and safety uh could be death yes yeah if you look under column the economy uh headed existing control measures

01:04:34 uh headed existing control measures mitigation or elimination

01:04:39 across the across the screen it says health and safety committee meetings every two months involving et and smt members where fire risk assessments fras and associated actions water quality and

01:04:52 and associated actions water quality and asbestos reviews are monitored resulting actions are monitored and audited internal audit all say monitor and report emergency planning tested in real event

01:05:01 event has and has been reviewed as a consequence so monitoring of fras is this right monitoring of fras and associated actions was considered to be the existing control measure for fire safety yes yes and the

01:05:13 for fire safety yes yes and the resulting actions to be monitored presumably monitored by the executive team the senior management team and the health and safety committee yeah

01:05:21 yeah and audited who was to carry out that auditing

01:05:26 auditing well there was the health and our internal auditors who carried out health and safety audits and there would also be the management team checking that they're doing what they're required to do when it says

01:05:38 what they're required to do when it says internal audit who was intended to conduct that as part of your mitigation measures i think that would be our internal order which was rbkc who carried out internal audits for us i see so you're saying that the rbkc

01:05:52 i see so you're saying that the rbkc audits were internal for the purposes of this document yes they were internal audits well they weren't internal to to tmo as an arms length organization were they i don't unders so we employed our bkc

01:06:06 i don't unders so we employed our bkc audit to carry out internal audits on our company uh right there may be a play on words on the word

01:06:13 the word uh internal here but you regarded rbkc is your internal auditor for this purpose is that right they were our point so we had a a management agreement with rbkc

01:06:25 management agreement with rbkc so we paid our bkc a yearly fee from our management fee for rbkc to carry out all our internal audits

01:06:32 audits and some audits that crossed over into the hra because that was still with responsibilities out with rbkc yeah yes do i take it from that there was no

01:06:44 yes do i take it from that there was no tmo internal audit uh of this risk in other words control measures for fire safety that would be the manager's job in the teams because they're

01:06:55 teams because they're managing that risk so they would be managing

01:06:59 managing their responsibility either with the contractors to make sure they're doing it

01:07:03 it but within the tmo there was no audit or even peer review of that activity well they'd probably be reviewed

01:07:10 reviewed but we didn't have another audit team sitting within the company now under the residual risk column

01:07:19 you can see the next column but one along after the word medium it says actions arising out of assessments and inspections not done in a timely manner so it it can be taken from that that

01:07:31 it can be taken from that that the residual one of the residual risks was

01:07:34 was timing yes in other words minimizing delay yes as fast as possible the person with responsibility

01:07:45 responsibility for this risk because if you look across beyond the colors green red green is dfs now that's the director of is this right director of financial services yeah that'd be barbara matthews

01:07:57 that'd be barbara matthews yes and that because this is 2017 this document

01:08:01 document that was barbara matthews

01:08:06 was there an earlier corporate risk map like this document earlier than february 2017 i'm not sure i

01:08:13 i think we had wrist maps before right

01:08:19 can we assume just going back to some earlier topics that that neither you nor any tmo managers were ever trained in risk management or is that wrong that's wrong were you trained in risk management yeah we had a board exec

01:08:31 we had a board exec and smt training on risk management by external consultants it started off with the board at the highest level so there was an away day or it might have been part of their a

01:08:42 or it might have been part of their a workshop so we had external consultants come in and design it because it was looking at what sort of company we were i can't remember the name of the company it was led by janet seward i see

01:08:53 it was led by janet seward i see yes and she's given us a witness statement on that subject uh and there was a workshop i think she says run by the tm's insurers zurich in march 2017. yeah yes very well we can look at her

01:09:05 yeah yes very well we can look at her statement for that that's tmo

01:09:10 50896. um now looking at how the tmo board was briefed about health and safety

01:09:15 safety and particularly fire safety you provided reports to the board didn't you at each meeting where significant fire safety issues would be included yeah yeah

01:09:23 yeah and how would you determine whether a fire safety issue should be reported up to the board i mean my chief exec report was a bit like a catch-all if there was a so in terms of the board when the

01:09:34 so in terms of the board when the company sector agreed the agenda with the board

01:09:37 the board they were formal papers and since the the chief exec report almost was to encourage other things to come up as well

01:09:45 as well and staff were encouraged across the business to contribute it to keep the board informed so in terms of how

01:09:52 of how if there was any health and safety issue it would be barbara and janice to to let us know and we would include those aspects in the report if it was a bigger thing then it would become a formal

01:10:03 thing then it would become a formal report

01:10:04 report right so when you say if there was any health and safety issue it would be barbara and janus to let us know does that mean that you as chief executive officer were entirely reliant on

01:10:15 on their judgment as to as to whether a fire

01:10:19 fire safety or fire safety management question

01:10:22 question should be presented to the board or not yeah i see

01:10:27 that we know that there was an annual health and safety report which went to the board

01:10:31 the board am i right in thinking that the contents of that report were left entirely to janice ray and anthony parks and then later

01:10:39 later barbara matthews yes unless there was other

01:10:43 other i mean because that covered the whole road of a wholesale apologies load of things across the company so other people would contribute it but barbara and janus would be the ones that would pull it together

01:10:54 would pull it together to try to ensure we covered everything and would it be right that board members could raise questions about fire safety under any other business of board meetings yes if they thought it was necessary yes yes

01:11:07 if they thought it was necessary yes yes um

01:11:09 mr chairman with some regret i i've come to a new topic and it's shortly before uh 11 15. i'm happy to spend a couple of minutes getting into it or we could break break now

01:11:20 break break now is this going to be a lengthy topic uh yes it is

01:11:23 yes it is it's not a topic i can finish before a break all right well perhaps we'll take the break slightly early in that case and save disrupting your line of questioning i would do if we took a break it would yes well mr black

01:11:35 took a break it would yes well mr black we have a break during each session we normally don't have it quite as early as this but we'll take

01:11:39 take it now and we'll stop now and return at half past 11 please and i'm going to ask you on this occasion and every other occasion when you leave the room please don't talk to

01:11:50 you leave the room please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it while you're away from the room okay all right thank you very much would you like to go to the usher then please

01:12:09 like to go to the usher then please all right how fast then please

01:31:42 would you ask mr black to come back if

01:31:56 please all right mr blake yeah of course i'm watching yeah of course no rush

01:32:14 all right ready to carry on yeah yes um mr black arising out of the exchanges we had just before the break was there at any time during your tenure as ceo

01:32:25 as ceo a process in place for approval of documents such as the fire safety strategy by the board uh

01:32:37 the board uh yes i think so what was that process the policy would have been developed by the policy development team or in case of fire safety wouldn't have been janus and she would have also run it by then it would have then gone through probably senior management team

01:32:49 probably senior management team executive and to the board right and is that as part of that process

01:32:55 process did the broad bring independent consideration to the document yes then how did it go about doing that so is it useful if i tell you a little bit about the board because we haven't

01:33:06 bit about the board because we haven't discussed that well we'll come we'll we'll come to it in due course but please do tell us so the board was made up of 15 there was eight

01:33:14 eight residents who were board members and elected

01:33:17 elected the tmo board itself appointed three independents and before i arrived the council appointed four council appointees but they changed that quick quite quickly after i joined to

01:33:29 quick quite quickly after i joined to two independents and two councils of labour the political deal was a labor and a conservative so basically i had five independents on the board

01:33:38 the board 15 on board is quite big in terms of good practice good practices was on average 12 but you know in generally over years it's got down to nine but because it was a tmo that's its

01:33:49 nine but because it was a tmo that's its constitution so therefore the you had independent voices both from the residents and independents but the independents would challenge you as is their rule if they required now i

01:34:02 as is their rule if they required now i want to ask you about the tmo first safety strategy before i do that i want to look at a document which was prepared by salvas for the tmo uh in september 2009.

01:34:13 salvas for the tmo uh in september 2009. now you'll remember i think that salvas were the fire risk assessors instructed by the tmo in that year yes yes and the the document itself is that sal 6013 please

01:34:26 is that sal 6013 please this is a document called the fire risk assessment for fire safety policy and procedures conducted on behalf of the tma by salvas the date is on let's go to the date page five please

01:34:37 five please top right hand corner 22nd of september 2009 you see that yes now were you aware at the time that this

01:34:48 were you aware at the time that this document was produced that it had been produced can you confirm the date of it of september 2009 so about four months after your arrival i think it was commissioned by liam who

01:35:00 i think it was commissioned by liam who was the property services director at that time liam who please oh sorry i can't remember his surname but he was the property services director apologize

01:35:10 apologize right i

01:35:13 right i don't remember i don't know if it was commissioned before i joined and that's when i've been trying as i've been preparing for this i've been trying to understand what kicked it off sorry you don't you don't know

01:35:24 don't know i think it was probably around the fire risk

01:35:28 risk assessment issues that i think the tmo was having with the fire brigade before i came

01:35:33 i came because i think up until then uh janus was

01:35:37 was doing the fire risk assessments with her team and i think the fire brigade were pushing that actually it wasn't going fast enough and they needed to to do it with a consultant in a sense and i think that was an issue happening

01:35:48 and i think that was an issue happening across the the country or certainly in london that trying to get someone to help you do it in terms of the schools now did you see this document

01:35:59 now did you see this document at the time it was produced or later i i have really tried to think i just can't remember at the time when it came to me so

01:36:11 at the time when it came to me so and i've been trying to find it when we were looking through where it went to so right i can't i can't recall it directly sorry do you recall seeing this document at any time during your tenure as ceo of the tmo

01:36:26 i must have done you can't remember when i can't

01:36:29 i can't the trouble is i've really right again within the context although i'm four months into my job there has been a and i don't know whether you'll speak about it later so i

01:36:41 whether you'll speak about it later so i don't know if it's his appropriate time as a new chief exec i faced quite a challenge

01:36:47 challenge on terms of yes i was responsible for the responsible person that is also responsible for a board and a company that wasn't actually operating properly

01:36:55 properly and my whole exact team left probably within that four-month period as well now let's look at the first two paragraphs of the introduction on page two of this document

01:37:08 it says this is fire risk assessment management i'm so sorry this fire risk assessment management report has been completed at the request of russell thompson head of asset strategy and investment of

01:37:19 head of asset strategy and investment of tenant management organization tmo of the royal borough of kensington and chelsea just pausing there uh did you know russell thompson yes that clarified i thought it was the russell right the previous person left

01:37:32 russell right the previous person left and russell was a consultant that we had to bring in at short notice and it goes on to say this management report reflects information gathered on the fire safety management systems of the tmo in respect

01:37:43 management systems of the tmo in respect of its property portfolio as per contract agreement dated second september

01:37:48 september 2009. now we'll come back to this document in due course but i just want to ask you about one of the issues highlighted by salvas within it if you go to page five please

01:38:01 if you go to page five please we go to uh

01:38:04 the hazard column on that page under section 1.1 and that says lack of a tmo fire safety policy statement you see that and then if you go across

01:38:15 you see that and then if you go across to the fourth column in italics it says there does not appear to be an

01:38:20 to be an overall tmo fire safety policy statement setting out the organization's strategic fire safety objectives including reference

01:38:27 reference to achieving full compliance with the requirements of the regulatory reform via safety order 2005 wherever it applies

01:38:35 applies to premises managed and or occupied by the tmo

01:38:38 the tmo and which is formally endorsed by the chief executive on behalf of the tmo and then if you look in the hazard column under 1.2 lack of inadequate tmo policy and

01:38:49 lack of inadequate tmo policy and arrangements and then in the fourth column in italics it says there does not appear to be adequate policy and supporting arrangements to explain how tmo will meet the objectives set out in any future strategic policy statement

01:39:01 in any future strategic policy statement to ensure suitable and sufficient fire safety is maintained at all times throughout the tma's property portfolio there was no specific policy and arrangements for fire risk assessment appointing fire safety assistance

01:39:13 appointing fire safety assistance fire prevention general fire precautions use of dangerous substances maintenance training and oper cooperation and coordination all of which are required by law now did you know when you arrived

01:39:25 by law now did you know when you arrived or shortly after you arrived that there was no tmo fire safety policy statement

01:39:31 statement uh in existence no you didn't know that did you know that as it's september 2009 four months on probably not did you know that at any time

01:39:40 time as we work to develop one yes well you work to develop when did you first discover

01:39:45 discover that there was no tmo fire safety policy statement

01:39:49 statement and inadequate tmo policy and arrangements as described in this report

01:40:00 i'm trying to remember i'm sorry [Music]

01:40:09 [Music] i can't i can't bring it down to specific data i mean do i take it that not only can you not recall the time when you saw this document but you you also can't recall any impression

01:40:21 you you also can't recall any impression that you would have gained from reading it i think the impression i think the impression i got because in sense this was the catalyst for moving sorry so this catalyst we're creating quite a

01:40:33 so this catalyst we're creating quite a lot of work in terms of actually moving the the structure forward so in terms of

01:40:39 terms of bringing in carl stokes now bringing in salvis from this they did our high risk properties and carried out the fire risk assessments and then carol stokes has employed to carry that

01:40:50 carol stokes has employed to carry that on so it's there off a huge piece of work i think it was around 650 we had to produce over the three years so that was in sense the key piece of work that we took away from this i understand that um that's fras

01:41:05 i understand that um that's fras but this is directing you to something higher

01:41:08 higher isn't it which is a tmo fire safety policy statement and adequate tmo policy and arrangements uh my my question just to repeat it is

01:41:20 uh my my question just to repeat it is do you remember a time when you gained an impression that those two facets of fire safety policy and fire safety arrangements were not in place

01:41:32 arrangements were not in place i can't remember i in the sense of the sort of sat with luna in terms of uh helping me understand and take it forward i i mean you say you you you must have seen this document at some point

01:41:44 seen this document at some point and do you actually recall ever reading it

01:41:48 it as i said as i've looked through all these documents and i've recognized that if you can't remember it then i can't say i i can if i'd seen it i'm sure it would because i understand how important

01:42:00 because i understand how important is and what it set off for the company in terms of compliance with rro but i can't remember it because at that time i was under gigantic pressure on other aspects of

01:42:11 gigantic pressure on other aspects of the company that's not diluting health and safety or fire safety in census as chief exec i was recruited on a basis to do something and then most of the promises that were made evaporated so i had to

01:42:23 made evaporated so i had to prioritize and depend on my team who were in place which was lynette and janet ray did did either of them to the best of your recollection ever put this

01:42:35 best of your recollection ever put this on your desk in front of you and say read this i can't remember that can we look and see what you say about a fire safety strategy in your witness statement please page 17 paragraph 87

01:42:47 paragraph 87 you say that tmo had a specific fire strategy in place which was reviewed and updated during its existence now you say reviewed and updated during its existence when were you first aware

01:42:58 its existence when were you first aware that a fire safety strategy for the tmo existed when uh it was 2013 well it was before 2013 because jana said

01:43:07 said we did chats about it and she was working on it as well as doing all the fra stuff and then we got it signed off and then i think it was coming up for a review in 2016.

01:43:19 you say that it was reviewed and updated during its existence how often was it reviewed and updated i

01:43:31 i can't recall sorry well let's look and see how we go with the documents um tmo double 870171 please

01:43:45 this is a copy of a document headed tmo fire safety policy and if you uh go down to page five please uh at the bottom of the page

01:43:58 uh at the bottom of the page uh you uh i think we probably need page four in fact rather than five you'll see your name and the date december 2009

01:44:11 december 2009 um do you remember what the circumstances were in which uh you put your name to this document can you just show me the top of the door yeah please right

01:44:25 so in terms of my name to it because in science it had been developed in process and as a responsible person i would be signing it uh yes um but do you remember can you give us a bit more

01:44:38 you remember can you give us a bit more why was this document produced for you in

01:44:41 in in or by december 2009

01:44:46 because it'd be part of the work that we've probably done with salvas uh sorry again just for confirm i just need to check if i'm understanding it's there we'll take a time have a look at the

01:44:58 we'll take a time have a look at the first

01:45:00 first three sub-paragraphs under you can confirm how many pages it is just for my yes it's it's uh it's five pages in all but ends at the bottom of page four and there's a further page

01:45:19 okay do you know why this document was produced for you in or before december 2009. well i think it was part of a position statement probably flowing

01:45:31 a position statement probably flowing out from the solvus report that uh could be organizationally the organization could start sort of putting these bits of paper and policies in place and take it to the

01:45:42 policies in place and take it to the book i suppose from my perspective i wasn't sure what my board knew about these issues as well when i came because i was dealing with so many things so there was a backlog of policing procedures that hadn't been

01:45:54 hadn't been developed over the previous years so in sense of there was uh probably why some things took so long but as we got better we developed and reviewed them more often yes i mean what you say is logical but do

01:46:05 i mean what you say is logical but do you actually remember that yes i remember this i just couldn't i thought i was looking at another paper sorry right do you remember reading this strategy before you signed it yes you did

01:46:16 before you signed it yes you did um let's go back to the salvas management report then please sal 6013 at page five again uh and i've shown you this paragraph 1.2

01:46:27 uh and i've shown you this paragraph 1.2 uh second second italicized paragraph that does not appear to be uh uh adequate policy and if you look at the second italicized paragraph there was no specific policy and arrangements

01:46:38 was no specific policy and arrangements for

01:46:38 for fire risk assessment etc i've read that out to you already take it from me that the december 2009 fire safety strategy that you signed in

01:46:49 fire safety strategy that you signed in at that time does not address any of those specific policies or arrangements that you see in the second italicized paragraph under section 1.2 of the

01:47:00 paragraph under section 1.2 of the selves report can you account for why it doesn't no do you know why you signed off on such a document when it did not comply in those respects i signed off on it probably because it's presented to by my

01:47:13 probably because it's presented to by my health and safety person who clark went through it with me and therefore i thought it had who was that it would have been janus right did janice ray not sit down with you and the salvos report

01:47:24 the salvos report and make sure that you understood or make sure that you looked across to check

01:47:30 check that what you were signing complied with or carried into effect the recommendations in the salvas report i take that point again trying to remember the context of it there was a lot of

01:47:41 it there was a lot of things going on and in a sense i was relying on janet to do that so that i could actually sign it off and have it in place

01:47:52 off and have it in place i think there's an urgency and uh i can't

01:47:55 can't uh i can't sort of feel comfortable with it but it's partly just what i find myself in situation i mean does it come to this that you relied on janice ray to make

01:48:07 that you relied on janice ray to make sure that the document she put in front of you

01:48:09 of you uh corresponded with the wreck and took him took him into effect the recommendations contained in the salvas reports

01:48:15 reports yes now can we turn to um the tmo fire safety strategy of november 2013

01:48:21 2013 signed by janice ray tm00830598

01:48:30 please now this uh document is uh

01:48:41 document is uh headed tmo fire safety strategy um do you remember that seeing this document at the time november 2013 you do do you agree that the intention behind this fire safety strategy was for it to apply to

01:48:53 safety strategy was for it to apply to all buildings at least those buildings to which the rro applied in the tma's stock yes can we look at a document which describes that stock this is the this is tmo double zero

01:49:06 this is the this is tmo double zero eight seven three five nine six this is the tmos asset management strategy for the years 2014 to 2019

01:49:17 for the years 2014 to 2019 uh are you familiar with this document yes you are um it it looks from various parts of it that it's a draft sorry i thought it was another one i

01:49:28 sorry i thought it was another one i just recognized the dates it would have been produced i say before the

01:49:34 the no sorry yes i am aware of it apologies it looks it looks as it's a draft because there are various square brackets in it uh do you know whether it was ever finalized it would have been yes because it informed

01:49:45 it informed quite a lot of other work that was done by the team very well let's go to page five in it please and look at the third paragraph down from the

01:49:52 the top middle of your screen this strategy covers

01:49:56 covers the council's rented housing stock general needs and sheltered of just under 7 000 homes more than 2 500 leasehold properties where the council's repairing liabilities are more limited and costs recharged to owners and more than 500

01:50:09 recharged to owners and more than 500 garages it also supports the management of more than 250 commercial sites now the fire safety strategy had to be sufficiently robust didn't it to enable compliance with the rro across that whole portfolio

01:50:22 with the rro across that whole portfolio yes yes and if you let's then look back at the fire safety strategy from november 2013 at tm00830598 and let's look together

01:50:34 at tm00830598 and let's look together at section 1.4 under the introduction it says there this strategy document enables us to outline the measures we have put in place not just to comply with fire

01:50:46 place not just to comply with fire safety legislation but more importantly to minimize the risk of fire throughout the housing stock specifically we are committed to reducing the risk of an outbreak of fire and also the risk of a fire spreading within a building

01:50:57 within a building but also spreading from one building to another

01:51:00 another is it right that the intention behind this document was that it would be the overarching strategy which would outline how the tmo approached fire safety across its stock yes yes and janice ray as we can see was

01:51:13 yes yes and janice ray as we can see was what we know because she's told us was responsible for writing it yes yeah and was that overseen by anybody such as anthony parks or perhaps it was

01:51:22 it was it should have been right and were you supposed to check it and sign it off in the sense i expected anthony we'd work with janice and then we're going to come to exec that it's agreed that you know this

01:51:34 that it's agreed that you know this final

01:51:35 final document we'd review it and and uh sign it off did you check it and sign it off do you remember i'm sure i signed it off yeah right uh and when you signed it off did were

01:51:47 uh and when you signed it off did were you given any explanation of it by janice ray or anthony parks i don't know so yes right do you remember that or you do what did they tell you

01:51:58 they finished that after a very long time they they went the format they would go through it at the meeting and people would look at it page by page you say they finished it after a very

01:52:09 you say they finished it after a very long time you are right about that if you were referring to the period between september 2009 and november 2013 a period of over four years

01:52:17 years can you account for why it took them so long no

01:52:20 long no uh i've been trying to think about i mean route is we so this is one part of the thing she was doing but at the same time we'd launched the whole

01:52:31 same time we'd launched the whole fire risk assessments across our 650 blocks

01:52:35 blocks so there was the work she was doing with carl stokes had been well savo's who were doing the first part the high risk and the work on the go with them coming through every now and then so i think

01:52:47 through every now and then so i think it's just one of those things that she felt personally she wanted to do it covers her a lot of area she'd have to work with different teams within the tmo uh to pull it all together

01:52:58 uh to pull it all together do you remember whether the board signed off on this document i would have sorry i don't remember a specific board but i would have thought they would have yes and why would you why would you think that they would have

01:53:09 think that they would have or why do you think because generally the policies went to the board right as far as i recall

01:53:16 recall so they would be with their a minute of a board meeting at which this document is approved you would i would think so

01:53:24 think so right

01:53:26 right i'm not sure that we we see one but we will check but you can you remember whether it was presented to the board i again i can't remember

01:53:37 remember there was at that time there were so many papers going to board to try to do catch up

01:53:42 catch up so i can't remember everyone apologies right

01:53:45 right let's look at another aspect of fire risk management and that's the emergency plan uh now uh before we look at the document

01:53:56 now uh before we look at the document itself

01:53:57 itself can we get back to the salvos review of 2009 september 2009 at sal 6013 this time page 11 heading number nine emergency procedures

01:54:08 heading number nine emergency procedures and evacuation plans and if you look at

01:54:19 [Music] 9.1 uh

01:54:22 9.1 uh it says lack of stroke inadequate emergency plans and then under existing control measures in place it says it is noted from a state staff quick reference handbook

01:54:33 reference handbook that there is a generic document emergency plan this was not a this is in italics this was not available for review at the time of the assessment and therefore it could not be confirmed that it is in accord with recommendations as set out in the

01:54:45 with recommendations as set out in the hm government guidance section 7.2 just pausing there that's the sleeping guide

01:54:51 guide tmo staff who receive fire safety training are trained to implement local firefighting actions using portable fire extinguishers where they are present at the time and they consider it is safe to do so now as far as you

01:55:04 it is safe to do so now as far as you were aware what were there any building specific emergency plans used by the tmo not off the top of my head in terms of specific

01:55:15 the top of my head in terms of specific buildings because there are so many buildings

01:55:17 buildings right i mean either in september 2009 or at any time thereafter i can't confirm something right now if you look at the column headed risk category with controls which

01:55:29 headed risk category with controls which is the second one from the right on the screen

01:55:32 screen it says hi doesn't it yeah and if we skip to the action plan at page 18 which is the document which sits behind the risk assessment within the same overall document

01:55:45 under this risk

01:55:48 uh 9.1 uh it says it is strongly recommended that tmo seek confirmation that all emergency plans are in accord with recommendations as

01:55:59 are in accord with recommendations as set out in the hm government guidance section 7.2 and we're found not to be so that adjustments are made as necessary to to fully comply with this guidance

01:56:11 this guidance uh now leaving aside the slightly wonky grammar there uh were you aware at any time of this recommendation i can't recall it specifically right you

01:56:22 i can't recall it specifically right you agree do you agree with me just looking at it that that salvas at least at this time are expressing a clear concern that the tmo's plans might not comply with that guidance can in terms of emergency plan can you

01:56:34 can in terms of emergency plan can you confirm

01:56:35 confirm what again i'm just trying to remember the thing is it an emergency plan for each specific block they're talking about here well

01:56:45 here well if you look back at the original recommendation on the first page

01:56:55 of the answer is the answer to your question which i will happily answer is yes

01:57:00 yes so again we didn't i don't believe we had

01:57:04 had individual emergency plan for each block because in principle we adopted the stay put

01:57:11 put strategy therefore actually in principle people stay put you don't have an emergency plan to get it out because the fire brigade will come along put the fire out or actually evacuate the building well let me try and

01:57:22 the building well let me try and see if we can get this a slightly different way you say you didn't have emergency plans for each block because you had a staple strategy i believe so that's what i think at this moment right let's just take this in stages um

01:57:35 right let's just take this in stages um first to be fair to you i should show you paragraph 7 section 7.2 of the sleeping guide this is at rbk3036722

01:57:48 is at rbk3036722 and we need to go to page 112 in that document to look at section 7.2 it's on the right-hand side of your screen under the heading in blue emergency plans emergency plan and contingency plans

01:58:01 emergency plan and contingency plans your emergency plan should be appropriate to your premises and could include

01:58:06 include uh and then it's a long bullet point list which goes on down to the bottom of the screen of the page and i won't read them all out to you um but you can see them there if you cast your eye down there yeah i can see that

01:58:18 your eye down there yeah i can see that were you familiar with this guidance it dates from 2006. are you prepared about it sorry so i think there's a few pieces of the guidance i mean again when i look at this the most of our stock

01:58:30 this the most of our stock was general needs there would be no if it's during the most of time there's no staff base there unless it's sheltered housing and even that trains

01:58:41 and even that trains because actually we had less residential caretakers in in our caretakers or wardens and sheltered housing

01:58:47 housing and again the principle is again from my perspective was that the overall state policy unless it's you're dealing with people a scheme that's got more high needs and

01:59:00 a scheme that's got more high needs and support in it but it doesn't say that does it i mean just just looking at what's on your screen it doesn't say you don't need emergency plans where you've got to stay up so i suppose from my experience of working in house and in 30 years

01:59:11 working in house and in 30 years the the housing associations of the registered providers wouldn't have had emergency plans power block across their whole stock i mean i think that's important to say that that's my experience it's not just

01:59:23 that that's my experience it's not just the tml's experience so your experience is this right is that section 7.2 was as a matter of practice in your business never complied with in terms of where i worked before

01:59:36 in terms of where i worked before and knowing other organizations that colleagues i would unless it's a sheltered housing or a registered care home so in circle 33 i had care homes with

01:59:50 33 i had care homes with people with severe disabilities and other support needs where we had 24-hour staff

01:59:55 staff those schemes would have specific emergency plans because actually because of the needs of the residents we're completely fundamentally different from general needs

02:00:05 needs i just wonder if we're confusing emergency plans and evacuation plans here

02:00:10 here because uh i think you mentioned earlier the

02:00:15 the instructions uh in response to a fire were stay put yes so it might be said the emergency plan is stable i think that's very helpful clarification for me chair yeah yes

02:00:27 clarification for me chair yeah yes um i'm not sure it's with great respect entirely correct um let's look at this emergency plans and we will have to read the bullet points your emergency plan should be appropriate to your premises right first

02:00:39 appropriate to your premises right first of all

02:00:40 of all do you agree that the text says it's building specific yes yes and could include and i know the word could as opposed to must or should and there's a long bullet point how people will be warned if there's a fire

02:00:51 people will be warned if there's a fire well that doesn't change regardless of whether the state but does it well how people are warned in a state but as far as i can remember the mass majority of

02:01:02 majority of general needs homes do not have an alarm system again in their homes where managed which had support issues and that could vary from homelessness and hostels which are worked in

02:01:13 are worked in up to high-risk resident care homes they all had

02:01:16 all had fire alarms built into them uh strong links with the emergency services because only to the people everywhere i've worked in in terms of general needs and that's

02:01:27 in in terms of general needs and that's across

02:01:28 across three or four five organization uh they they wouldn't have had the majority of this in place it's about stay put be rescued and that's your experience was it that was

02:01:40 that's your experience was it that was my experience not just my own working experience but across the sector but you accept that on its face this is a long list of things that that a building specific emergency plan could include

02:01:51 emergency plan could include including if you look at the fourth bullet point down how the evacuation of the premises should be carried out now so again well let me just come to the question please first were you aware

02:02:04 please first were you aware that the general guidance under 7.2 was as we see

02:02:09 as we see i don't think i would be aware specifically thank you secondly were you aware in september 2009 or thereafter that salvas had picked up non-compliance by the tmo

02:02:20 had picked up non-compliance by the tmo with section 72 as a criticism and a recommendation that compliance should be achieved so what i would say about that is there should have been a challenge back to salvas whether that's appropriate

02:02:32 to salvas whether that's appropriate for the house and stock that we were managing but there wasn't was there well that's why i'm saying no thirdly do you agree uh that there's nothing in either the

02:02:43 uh that there's nothing in either the heading or this long list which says that none of these apply where you have a statement policy in other words a blanket exclusion for the application of this provision of this guidance to a building where

02:02:54 this guidance to a building where statehood is the policy i think that's partly the confusion of some of the legislation it's not always clear of what it's covering in terms of intended and how it conflicts

02:03:06 terms of intended and how it conflicts with other parts so there's a lot here about stay poo where

02:03:12 where where in in terms of general needs where it it wouldn't be appropriate as a matter of fact do you recall

02:03:19 recall whether the tma took a decision not to carry salvus's recommendation to comply with section 7.2 into effect because you regarded it as inappropriate for your building style so i

02:03:31 for your building style so i obviously well not obviously i can't recall specifically that point what i'd say though is that having

02:03:38 worked through this with you is that it would seem that it would be inappropriate for the vast majority of general needs properly as a general proposition that is what

02:03:49 as a general proposition that is what you say

02:03:49 you say my question is as a matter of fact did was any decision made in or after september 2009 that given the profile of tma stock

02:04:00 that given the profile of tma stock section 72 didn't apply and salvage's recommendation need not be carried into effect

02:04:05 effect was the decision made i think there would have been a decision made in terms of actually if you stick with the state policy in sense you don't do the mass majority of this but i can't so i have to really can't confirm around

02:04:17 so i have to really can't confirm around about that time there was a specific discussion or decision right i mean my question is was there a decision taken on the on the on the basis that you've identified or was it was the recommendation simply ignored

02:04:28 recommendation simply ignored that's what i'm trying to get well i suppose it's a recommendation if it was a no because it wasn't appropriate for a stock then i wouldn't say ignored it just wasn't at any event do you agree that no plan was put in place to comply or

02:04:40 plan was put in place to comply or attempt to comply with paragraph 7.2 of the sleeping guide i think so unless janus ray has said something contrary to me now let's go back then to page 11 of this document

02:05:02 i'm so sorry i i that is not um the right document i need to get back to the uh fire risk the management report sal6013

02:05:12 sal6013 page 11. if we go back to that you can see that under 9.2 lack of stroke inadequate liaison with fire and rescue service

02:05:23 fire and rescue service it does not appear that there is adequate liaison with the fire and rescue service in regard to pre-planning for potential fire scenarios or an agreeing appropriate fire safety standards for adoption by

02:05:34 fire safety standards for adoption by the tmo from the findings of fire risk assessments and if you look at the action for 9.2 on page 18

02:05:45 this is in the action plan part of the document under 9.2 it says that it's recommended that the tmo seek adequate liaison with the fire rescue service in regard to pre-planning for potential

02:05:57 in regard to pre-planning for potential fire scenarios in tma managed properties and agree how relevant information may be provided between parties in an effective manner in an emergency uh also bs 9999 annex m for additional advice tmo should

02:06:11 annex m for additional advice tmo should determine

02:06:12 determine a set of fire safety standards for the organization to move towards the future move towards in the future as part of a program of improvements such standards should be in accord with priorities based upon the findings of

02:06:23 priorities based upon the findings of the fire risk assessments and current best guidance ideally approval of the fire and rescue service should be sought for these internal tma standards now it's clear from that um do you agree

02:06:34 now it's clear from that um do you agree that the

02:06:35 that the a recommendation for liaison and fire rescue services to plan for fire emergencies was made yes yeah

02:06:42 yes yeah and and that was with the aim of agreeing how relevant information would be provided to the lfb in this case in the event of an emergency yes yes was that ever done yeah i think janice

02:06:54 was that ever done yeah i think janice had

02:06:55 had again from where i came in my recollection with janice is she had regular

02:07:02 regular uh meetings with the lfb certainly when we were starting to do these fire risk assessments for the first time because

02:07:10 because lots of consultation to make sure they're right which i think is normal within these procedures and hopefully so i i've always felt that janus

02:07:21 so i i've always felt that janus has had appropriate relationships with the fire brigade in terms of timing sharing information when required did you ever monitor that or supervise

02:07:32 did you ever monitor that or supervise that in your role as ceo she kept me informed verbally and updated

02:07:37 updated there was a consistent thing when i asked that she had regular meetings by monthly i think it was if i can recall with the fire brigade looking uh at the bottom of page 18 you can see 9.3

02:07:48 bottom of page 18 you can see 9.3 it is strongly recommended that tmo consider development of formal procedures to deal effectively with fire safety issues associated with disabled or vulnerable tenants and lease holders and also any employees

02:07:59 and lease holders and also any employees this should include a range of options from relocation in severe cases with or without potential property adaptations and fixed fire suppression systems to the provision of specific personal emergency evacuation plans in

02:08:10 personal emergency evacuation plans in those less serious cases see also recommendations in hm government guidance and building regulations approved document m now

02:08:20 now we can see from that that's a red item isn't it so that's high risk yes yes yes and and you could see the part that says um formal procedures to deal effectively with fire safety issues associated with

02:08:31 with fire safety issues associated with disabled or vulnerable tenants leaseholders and employees was that done

02:08:36 that done in the context of an emergency plan no not for us as far as you can call there

02:08:44 there as i said i don't think there was individual emergency plans per block we would have information on our systems but again i think in the general

02:08:56 but again i think in the general throughout this is about if it wasn't within a specific scheme that was supporting people with those needs it was deemed it was stay put now let's look at a document called

02:09:07 a document called emergency plan at tm010013898

02:09:16 uh we think that this was the last known version of this document before the fire on the 14th of june 2017 but please correct us if we're wrong about that

02:09:27 about that if we go to the third page we can see that this is an updated version as at february 2016 yeah which was the revision or further revision of a document which began its

02:09:39 revision of a document which began its life on

02:09:39 life on in august 2004. now you may recall mr black that you and i looked at this document together when you gave evidence in phase one of this inquiry in september

02:09:49 september 2018. day 74 page 146. now this document it obviously is headed to tmo's emergency plan i i i i'm assuming from your evidence that

02:10:01 i i i'm assuming from your evidence that you've just given us about um about section 7.2 of the sleeping guide that this was not a document intended to satisfy uh the guidance in that document i i'm

02:10:13 uh the guidance in that document i i'm afraid i'd need to see a little bit of yes of course uh let's continue down uh to look at uh perhaps the index might help you that would be helpful thank you okay page

02:10:26 five

02:10:32 and and the way this document is uh laid out is that it has essentially two parts pages one to forty uh

02:10:39 uh pages one to twenty six and then uh the property details under part two from page 27 onwards yes you see that i recognize it yes

02:10:51 yes you see that i recognize it yes just on on that and i could we could take a bit more time and go through it to refresh your memory if you like but um do i take it from the evidence you've given this morning already that this document was not a document

02:11:02 this document was not a document intended to satisfy the guidance under section 7.2 of the sleeping guide i i i would say based on what i've said so far but i can't remember the details at the moment sorry

02:11:13 at the moment sorry all right but do you know whether this plan was ever intended to satisfy tma's regulatory obligations under the rra more broadly yes i think it would have been i think it would have been but do you remember whether it was designed for that purpose

02:11:25 whether it was designed for that purpose yes you do um the date of origin may be a clue 2004 whereas the rro is dated 2005.

02:11:36 whereas the rro is dated 2005. well i wasn't there 2004 and it hadn't been reviewed for nine years but it by five years by the time i came so let's look at the wording on page one uh which is the internal numbering

02:11:47 which is the internal numbering page thirteen of the document on your screen and it says this part one kctma emergency planning introduction and then if you look uh under

02:12:01 and then if you look uh under the heading kctma emergency plan the third paragraph done after the quotations uh relating to the responsibility of the tmo in in a major

02:12:12 tmo in in a major incident we've got definitions of major incident

02:12:15 incident there it says the plan is primarily for managing local kctma emergencies on within or surrounding our properties and estates

02:12:24 estates one which can be managed within the resources available to the tmo however this plan can also be used for large-scale major events which would overwhelm the kctm's ability to manage on its own and which would involve the rbkc council

02:12:36 and which would involve the rbkc council resources

02:12:37 resources the difference being the scale of the emergency and the number of people affected by it you see that yeah now uh on the next page page 14 we can see that it deals with vulnerable residents there

02:12:48 with vulnerable residents there and it says information on numbers of known vulnerable residents are included on the block stroke property details which form part of this plan now we'll look at the block details

02:12:59 now we'll look at the block details shortly but before i get there is it it's clear that this document recognizes the need for information on the numbers the numbers of known vulnerable residents at the

02:13:10 of known vulnerable residents at the very least if not necessarily the detail of their individual vulnerabilities yes so i think yes and yes

02:13:16 yes in the sense that would be collected with

02:13:20 with so before 2008 the audit commission required us to collect information uh which was sometimes not so much and then we've carried on and we

02:13:32 and we the idea was to have it on the system to do this

02:13:36 do this now if you go to page 34

02:13:41 there's a specific checklist for fire there do you see that checklist fire and there's a question and an action there and there are 12 questions if you look down your screen um

02:13:54 if you look down your screen um with potential answers yes yeah and if we look at the block specific page for grenfell this is a page 134 uh internal 146 in the document

02:14:06 uh internal 146 in the document page 146 on the screen uh you uh you can see

02:14:18 uh in fact i think we want one for five for the start of it grenfell tower lancaster west you see that yeah number of dwellings 120 and vulnerable residents are numbered at

02:14:30 and vulnerable residents are numbered at 8 to 12 there do you see that yes now you'll recall um perhaps you won't but in the phase one report at paragraph 30.93 the chairman concluded that the

02:14:41 30.93 the chairman concluded that the emergency plan was obsolete and had been so for many years so that's a conclusion of this inquiry my question today for you is after all the disclosure that you've seen at part two

02:14:53 part two phase two is how come i come it's obsolete yes how come it had become

02:14:59 become so obviously 15 years out of date well again the i think we've been through this uh

02:15:10 i think we've been through this uh reality is that information should have been updated by staff and and the whole thing i've suffered throughout my career working with people is the

02:15:21 my career working with people is the ability

02:15:22 ability to forget to fill in the paperwork so i think those three i think we discussed this where there's a lot of appendices behind here for each block and in a sense when you put it in paper

02:15:34 it in paper filling it getting people to do that job to update it is difficult we were working through the process with our new crm system which we were had brought

02:15:46 new crm system which we were had brought in

02:15:46 in so that i see something like this wouldn't be sitting with a pile of paper it would actually be updated automatically there'd be warnings for the appropriate management and staff

02:15:56 and staff so in a sense this is about bringing our technology up to date to address that so again i

02:16:00 again i whether i apologize previously you know it didn't make me happy that it was out of date i don't know why people didn't do because actually this was escalated

02:16:12 was escalated down to lower management to do as part of their rules and should have been keeping it up today so in a sense you know i can't get away from it it's out of date it's

02:16:24 out of date it's i don't think that i think there's more up-to-date information available but it wasn't there so i just have to accept that responsibility well that's noted but let's just look at

02:16:35 well that's noted but let's just look at page 146

02:16:36 page 146 where i took you to start with you can see that the date for this section dealing with grenfell tower specifically was completed on the 25th of february

02:16:47 was completed on the 25th of february 2002

02:16:49 2002 but as we can see from the first page i took you to there was a there were three reviews after 2004 so this document seems to to predate the emergency plan

02:17:01 emergency plan or this part of it uh there were further reviews

02:17:05 reviews including reviews during your time the last of which being at february 2016 my first question is did you yourself play any part in the review of this document

02:17:16 document in 2016. i would have played a part in terms of the the top part of the document the overall strategy what was saying there what i didn't have was

02:17:25 was all the information below because that didn't come to exact because in the sense that we've seen very much at the exact level that that was locally held information that needed to be updated locally

02:17:36 to be updated locally you can obviously see from this that local staff didn't update it but i think because back to my point i think we did have more up-to-date information on different systems but not here and and that's my honest

02:17:47 but not here and and that's my honest answer

02:17:48 answer um do you know what prompted the review in february 2016 well i think if you look at the dates what we were trying to do as a company get to stage where

02:17:59 get to stage where the information or the policy of the strategy was more regularly reviewed than previously so when i came in there's huge amounts of policy procedures that hadn't been updated for

02:18:10 procedures that hadn't been updated for years and

02:18:11 years and what we were trying to do was get through this whole area so we could have an

02:18:15 an up-to-date list which is mostly i think we listed in our health and safety report once a year which showed policy has been updated in a sense

02:18:26 was the farah today tower not a prompt for this review remember i think if you look at the days the reviews are every two years so i think with this one we're updating the

02:18:38 i think with this one we're updating the the

02:18:39 the strategy every two years because it was important

02:18:42 important as part of the review did nobody bring to your attention the fact that vast swathes and it is vast swathes of part two were out of date no

02:18:51 date no can you account for that i think i've tried i can't account it why we were very clear and i was very clear uh exec and senior management team that this

02:19:02 management team that this type of detail had to be reviewed locally because actually they had the information locally so we had three local offices with local teams supporting

02:19:13 with local teams supporting our tenants and they held the information there and if it was their responsibility to fill these out partly what i while i accept it hasn't partly the way we're moving towards the

02:19:26 partly the way we're moving towards the crm

02:19:26 crm system because that's an audit system that prompts people to do it and then actually if they don't do it management can see it so i've always worry about big piles of paper sitting somewhere

02:19:39 paper sitting somewhere where they're not being updated so again i can only apologize at any at any rate you haven't been able to tell us from the disclosure of documents at phase two that you've seen

02:19:50 documents at phase two that you've seen why it was that the large parts of this of part two of this document were left obsolete for so long well again what i have to what i said is

02:20:02 well again what i have to what i said is it's been left obviously because the management team or the staff who had responsibility because there'd be individual neighborhood officers that should know about it and should do it and what we were trying to over years is

02:20:14 and what we were trying to over years is introduce systems where there were less passive in terms of management that we could order follow and challenge so those systems failed didn't they because well no not the crm system because that

02:20:26 well no not the crm system because that wasn't completely in place by them given that salvas had specifically advised the tmo in september 2009 that they needed to have

02:20:35 have well you needed to have an emergency plan and to do a building specific emergency plan in accordance with the guidance

02:20:42 guidance can you can you account for why you failed to have up-to-date plans for each building

02:20:46 building including for grenfell tower so i think i've said three or four times the emergency plan was the emergency plan the detail behind should have been filled in by staff and updated and

02:20:59 and updated and so that's my answer i think as ceo you accept responsibility for that failure i accept responsibility that my staff obviously haven't carried out instructions by the managers to do it

02:21:10 instructions by the managers to do it yes and the ceo the buck stopped with you didn't it as a ceo my job isn't to fill in 400 or 500 or 650 individual sheets or check them individually that's why i have a staff team

02:21:21 have a staff team management structure so if they fail to do it yes it books up with me but i can show true

02:21:27 show true where actually this was not my responsibility for lyon i accept my responsibility as chief exec not but not to fill in the details like this because that sits with my local teams who are employed to do no but the point i'm putting to you mr

02:21:39 no but the point i'm putting to you mr black in reality is that as the chief executive

02:21:41 executive you are ultimately responsible for a failure uh to keep these documents up to date lower down in your organization

02:21:50 pass pass well what i'm saying i think i've answered once twice three four times and i

02:21:59 and that's it really it should have been updated i'm not shying away from that and i reckon so that's my situation

02:22:10 i reckon so that's my situation just to just to be absolutely clear you're not shying away from the fact that it wasn't done but are you shying away from the fact that it was your ultimate responsibility to ensure that it was done so again my responsibility is to responsible for

02:22:22 responsibility is to responsible for everything but then to have a structure in place management teams to actually do the work and follow the instructions of their manager i think we probably understand what you're saying mr black it wasn't your job to fill in the individual sheets and i

02:22:34 fill in the individual sheets and i don't think anyone's suggesting it was sorry but i think yours didn't feel like that true well i think you're also accepting that as with everything else within an organization where there's devolved

02:22:47 organization where there's devolved duties you ultimately have to take responsibility for the way the system works

02:22:51 works or doesn't work accept that yeah now let's look at some minutes from an executive team meeting uh in november 2015. tmo double zero eight four zero four five zero

02:23:06 uh this is dated the 11th of november 2015 as you can see from the date at the top

02:23:11 top uh and if you go to page two of this document

02:23:15 document and i should i'm so sorry can we go back to page one i'll just show you that you are listed as present there you see that yes now if we go to page two you can see that there was discussion about emergency plans um under adair tower

02:23:29 emergency plans um under adair tower responses yeah now just just to help you with the chronology uh you may be familiar with this but uh 11th of november 2015 was 11 days or so after a fire at a

02:23:42 was 11 days or so after a fire at a tower on the 31st of october 2015. uh and this is what this discussion is about

02:23:48 about our responses now if you go down the screen

02:23:52 screen to the fourth paragraph down it says the tma's emergency plan was discussed and it was agreed that it would be good for e.t to have a session with janice ray and hash champion to get a greater understanding

02:24:03 champion to get a greater understanding of who owns and updates it and lessons learned from the fire at our adair tower jill to arrange jill i think it's jill petford yeah yeah um

02:24:13 um now you were at the meeting as i've shown you do you recall the detail of this discussion at all yes i think so you do uh do you remember why there was any question over who

02:24:25 why there was any question over who owned the emerg the emergency plan or who was responsible for updating it

02:24:32 uh can you confirm which paragraphs are i just got yes it's the fourth one down i read to you tma's emergency plan was discussed

02:24:46 i think it was a general thing in terms of actually says after a fire we as an executive should meet together to find out actually what worked what didn't and uh take it from there it's also about that link with uh

02:25:00 it's also about that link with uh rbkc yes

02:25:04 rbkc yes the specific question i'm asking you is based on the words to get a greater understanding of who owns and updates the emergency plan and my question is why was there any doubt or any question mark over

02:25:16 doubt or any question mark over who owned and uh and was responsible for updating

02:25:20 updating the emergency plan i think it was a refreshing memory who learns it sat with policy it sat with different people was there an answer to that question that you ever got

02:25:31 question that you ever got i can't recall at the moment thank you right

02:25:34 right you don't remember one way or the other i can't recall that at the moment now um do you remember whether you and the rest of the executive team had a session on the emergency plan to get a greater understanding of these

02:25:46 get a greater understanding of these matters

02:25:47 matters i think janice did one to exec

02:25:54 i you say janice did want to exact you mean she made a presentation to you about it

02:26:01 about it i can't remember if it's presentation she just came along and spoke to us i know she i know she went round and chatted to people who were involved in trying to get feedback so we could get it

02:26:10 it yes i'm assuming that i'm so sorry sorry sorry i'm assuming that the emergency plan referred to there is the the two-part document we looked at earlier do do you remember her taking the executive

02:26:22 do you remember her taking the executive team including you through that document yes but not the the details at the back right

02:26:38 does that tell us that as part of that process you only had in front of you part one or did you have the whole document but just didn't get as far as we don't let it we only had part one in terms of that we

02:26:50 we only had part one in terms of that we wouldn't have had all the schedules behind

02:26:55 would you agree that a critical aspect of any emergency plan uh is the arrangements for communication of that plan to residents

02:27:11 i'm trying to think that one well so putting a proposition to you yeah um would you agree with this proposition it is a critical aspect of any emergency

02:27:22 it is a critical aspect of any emergency plan so again sorry this is the company's emergency plan how it should operate in an emergency

02:27:28 emergency in terms of i think what you're trying to say or what would say is that incentive for the residents that the plan was always stay put and be rescued by the fire began or who would take control

02:27:41 take control well i i'm just putting a general proposition to you mr black you don't have to

02:27:45 have to agree with it but do you agree that a critical

02:27:49 critical important aspect of any emergency plan would include communication of the contents of that plan to residents so far as it affects them

02:28:00 i'm not sure if i agree with that okay well let's look at some concerns raised by residents about the lack of information relating to an emergency plan can we go first please to tmo100

02:28:21 this is a letter from the grenfell tower leaseholders association of the 3rd of september 2010 and it's addressed to you personally dear mr robert black and it's copied to others including anthony parks and

02:28:35 others including anthony parks and sasha jevons as you can see if we go to page five in this document uh there is a heading fire alarm and health and safety towards the bottom of your screen

02:28:46 your screen now just to help you with the context for this document do you remember that there had been a fire at grenfell tower on the 30th of april 2010. i think i did after yeah selecting the

02:28:57 i think i did after yeah selecting the documents

02:28:59 documents yes and do you remember that one of the defects

02:29:03 defects in grenfell tower's active fire safety measures revealed by that fire was that the smoke

02:29:07 the smoke vent system did not operate correctly i yes yes and also that there was a problem or said perhaps

02:29:18 that there was a problem or said perhaps to be a problem with the lift not responding when caught by firefighters i don't know that one you don't know that one now um if you look at page five uh you can see

02:29:29 if you look at page five uh you can see that the

02:29:30 that the author says we're very shocked to learn from you

02:29:35 from you that you considered the defects in the building exposed by the fire as a minor fault

02:29:39 fault when it had potentially fatal consequences the minor fault caused so much damage to individuals living in grenfell tower it's difficult to ima to image how serious an event has to be for you to consider it a major fault

02:29:51 for you to consider it a major fault if the fire alarm system is not functioning and the vents are not working

02:29:55 working then it should be considered no doubt as a major fault they are used as measures to save lives so if they're not working then obviously you are endangering the lives of residents of the building what's more we are certain that out of

02:30:06 what's more we are certain that out of 120 families living in the block no one is aware of the evacuation procedure we have never had an evacuation procedure booklet sent to us for the past 36 years is it not necessary by law to test the

02:30:17 is it not necessary by law to test the fire alarm and associated equipment on a regular basis to check whether the system is fully functional now bearing in mind as we now know

02:30:28 now bearing in mind as we now know you now know i think that this is almost a year after the september 2009 salvas fire safety management report that we've looked at did that letter cause you to check what arrangements

02:30:40 cause you to check what arrangements were in fact in place for communicating evacuation procedure to residents well i don't think there was a fire alarm system in this block

02:30:53 sorry i'm just written it people are saying they did not hear the fire alarm just for my knowledge and i may be wrong i don't think there was a fire alarm system in the block

02:31:04 block but my question is would that be true you know all the staff well my my question to you is at the time when you received this letter did it cause you to check what arrangements were in place for

02:31:16 arrangements were in place for communicating any evacuation procedures to residents so

02:31:21 so again as far as i'm aware the the procedure was in case of a fire stay put

02:31:28 put be rescued by the fire brigade or for the far beer to come make an assessment of fire on them to make a decision about what they're going to do that decision could be to evacuate the building or it could be just to put the

02:31:39 building or it could be just to put the fire out

02:31:45 did you check having received this letter

02:31:48 letter what arrangements were in place for communicating communicating to residents the relevant procedure

02:31:56 procedure in the event of a fire so we wouldn't it's in tanzania stay put

02:32:08 perhaps you're not understanding my question i'll try once more the question is about communication to residents did you having received this letter check what the arrangements were at grenfell tower for communicating

02:32:19 grenfell tower for communicating what residents should do in the event of a fire to them no why is that i suppose from you know looking back or reflecting here

02:32:29 here is that that if there's a again i think the state policies who uh ingrained in the system that if there's a fire it will the fire

02:32:41 if there's a fire it will the fire brigade will be there and put out if it's during the day that i mean i think this is difficult sometime if you're if you're fired during the day and we know about it then we have staff there but generally we're waiting for the fire

02:32:53 but generally we're waiting for the fire brigade to come to take control and there's no evacuation policy unless the fire brigade decide to evacuate the building yes did the receipt of this message lead you to instigate a

02:33:07 lead you to instigate a process for this building whereby all the residents were reminded whether by notice or by communication of some other kind of what the arrangements for their

02:33:18 of what the arrangements for their safety would be in the event of a fire i can't i can't confirm that now i'd have to ask janice now the issue of advice to residents came up again in 2016. you may remember

02:33:29 came up again in 2016. you may remember this can we go to

02:33:33 nine eight tm01011798 let's go to page four in that this is an email run uh where on page four eighth of january

02:33:44 where on page four eighth of january 2016

02:33:46 2016 councillor mason writes to councillor marshall

02:33:50 marshall and he says uh adair tower fire at the last ccsc meeting

02:33:58 that's cabinet corporate scrutiny committee meeting i was asked to request if you could tell us what what advice the tmo gives to its tenants in the case of a fire this question came up because the borough fire commander told the

02:34:10 borough fire commander told the committee the last time he visited that although adair tower flats were fitted with smoke-proof doors people opened them during the fire letting in the smoke when they may have been safe for staying indoors and then started walking down 13 stories of

02:34:21 started walking down 13 stories of smoke-filled stairs perhaps it's not possible to stop people leaving a building in panic during a fire and if we go up to page 3 of this email run at the bottom you can see that on the 9th of january 2016

02:34:34 9th of january 2016 councillor marshall writes to councillor mason

02:34:38 mason in response and you're copied into it as is laura johnson pat i'm not sure there is standard advice across the estate mr black could you let us know what is normally advised especially in towers

02:34:51 normally advised especially in towers also could you give some thought to councillor mason's questions about weekends etc now is this right that you you you um well you then respond to that if you go

02:35:02 well you then respond to that if you go up page three uh and back over to page two and you do page one i think at the bottom of page one is where it uh where it starts a long email

02:35:13 uh where it starts a long email uh and you write to barbara matthews and johnny's raise you can see that on the 11th of january hi barbara and janice could you review both councillor mason and councillor marshall's points in the email below and draft me something i can

02:35:25 email below and draft me something i can send back please in reviewing it i've added a bit in red to see what you think happy for you to edit and change robert uh you could see that say is it right that you needed them to provide the answer because you yourself

02:35:37 provide the answer because you yourself didn't know it yeah i mean with the question like that i'd always copy and janice and barbara uh because in a sense they managed to fire health and safety and more up to date than myself so it's chief exact that's what i did

02:35:49 so it's chief exact that's what i did generally yeah and then they would send it back to me i would see and you can see just to finish the email run off at page one janice ray writes back to you the next day

02:36:00 you the next day robert and barbara she's copied in i've added some info in purple to your draft response

02:36:04 response please advise if you need anything further from me if you go down to the foot of page one again you can see what she says there over to page two in relation to what the normal advice is especially in towers uh and the thrust

02:36:17 especially in towers uh and the thrust of it is

02:36:17 of it is is stay put you see that now um if you go then to uh rbk3058101 please

02:36:28 if you go then to uh rbk3058101 please i'm going to show you the minutes of an rbkc

02:36:31 rbkc cabinet and corporate services scrutiny committee ccsc little bit after this on the 8th of february 2016 so the following month and you can see who's who is in

02:36:43 and you can see who's who is in attendance there

02:36:46 you are not there perhaps unsurprisingly um if you go to page three of the minutes there's something i want to ask you about there on page three in the second paragraph uh it says

02:36:57 it says councillor campbell drew attention uh to the statement on page one uh the fire safety information is provided to residents on the tmo website she considered this inadequate as not all residents would have access to the

02:37:09 all residents would have access to the website

02:37:10 website referring to page two she drew attention to the comment that some dwellings were provided with lfb leaflets and asked which ones were not the chairman undertook to take this up with the tmo

02:37:21 with the tmo now do you accept that it's clear from the sequence of events including the email run that rbkc councillors had concerns about the provision or lack of provision of fire safety

02:37:33 lack of provision of fire safety information to residents in early 2016. it would i can't mean part wrote to me i know pat and his

02:37:41 and his situation he's responding and councillor campbell i don't know what happened after this yes do you remember that this these questions this is clear from the 8th of january email

02:37:54 resulted or arose as a result of an actual fire yeah did that fact suggest to you that whatever the tma was doing about informing residents of

02:38:05 doing about informing residents of emergency plans in their building it wasn't working i i think yes i would say that it would seem like we

02:38:16 i would say that it would seem like we could have done better now um going forward in the year 2016 tmo double zero eight six three seven three three

02:38:28 three three uh

02:38:33 this is an email run uh between councillor mason who was the chair of the ccsc i believe

02:38:40 believe correct me if i'm wrong about that uh to to you and if we get a page three we can see an email from councillor mason to you on the 14th of april

02:38:50 of april as you can see there um and it says dear robert fire safety information to residents

02:38:56 residents at the last meeting of the cabinet corporate services scrutiny committee where there was an update on the adair tower fire it was noted that fire safety information is provided to residents on the tma website one committee member wondered if this

02:39:08 one committee member wondered if this was adequate given that not all residents

02:39:10 residents would have access to the internet for various reasons [Applause] is this information provided to residents in other ways and you copied janice ray in

02:39:24 and you copied janice ray in and barbara matthews if you go up to the bottom of page two above that in response to councillor mason you you say i'll ask my team to review and come

02:39:35 say i'll ask my team to review and come back to you and then if you uh scroll up a little bit please to the bottom of page one second half of page one janice ray responds to councillor mason copying you

02:39:46 responds to councillor mason copying you and barbara matthews in on the 15th of april 2016. and she says further to your inquiry regarding provision of fire safety information to residents i can confirm that this is provided in a

02:39:58 i can confirm that this is provided in a number of ways uh she says as per the update presented to scrutiny committee fire safety information is available on the kc tma website

02:40:08 website in addition new tenants receive a letter outlining their fire procedure providing some safety advice and enclosing a copy of the referral leaflet for anyone wishing to arrange a free london fire brigade lfb

02:40:20 london fire brigade lfb home fire safety visit copies of letter and leaflet attached fire safety articles are regularly included in our kctma publications the link

02:40:27 link and the home ownership newsletter and then there's a reference to specific specifically in relation to adair and hazelwood towers shortly be installing fire action

02:40:38 shortly be installing fire action notices setting out the action to be taken in the event of a fire in the flat and elsewhere in the building then she goes on further i would advise that we liaise closely with the lfb to facilitate their familiarization

02:40:49 to facilitate their familiarization visits to our blocks particularly the high-rise

02:40:52 high-rise and potentially higher risk blocks where possible we produce joint publicity in advance of their visit and as part of the exercise we encourage the lfb to offer a home a free home fire safety visit to any resident wishes to have one

02:41:04 visit to any resident wishes to have one and it goes on like that uh and then over the page at page two

02:41:10 page two after a reference to the road show our fire risk assessor regularly posts lfb leaflets through residence doors as part of his

02:41:15 of his assessment

02:41:20 and then in the at the end she says finally i would advise that we're currently reviewing our fire strategy to ensure that our approach continues to effectively control fire risks the issue of publicizing stroke communicating the fire safety message is

02:41:33 communicating the fire safety message is one of the areas to which we will be paying particular attention now that's a lengthy response which i've read most of to you was that a response was that response a comprehensive

02:41:44 was that response a comprehensive explanation of the tmos communication of an emergency plan to residents as you understood it at the time yes it was now then um if we go forward in the year 2016 to november

02:41:56 the year 2016 to november tm0100

02:42:01 this is a notice of deficiency from the nfb

02:42:04 nfb on the 17th of november 2016 in relation to grenfell tower were you aware at the time that this had been issued

02:42:19 i'm sure i would have done but i can't recall

02:42:24 so what i can say is having gone through the paperwork preparing for this i've come across this i'm just trying to remember actually a time yes and and i we have had difficulties pinning down

02:42:36 i we have had difficulties pinning down precisely when you did see it are you able to help but to help you and your recollection it looks as if you had seen it by um your ceo report of march 2017

02:42:48 by um your ceo report of march 2017 did you see it in november 2016 when it was issued or shortly thereafter do you remember i can't remember i'm afraid if i if it's in my report if it's in the report that came later then i would have

02:42:59 report that came later then i would have seen it somewhere or it had been reported to me but i can't remember at that specific time right now let's look at page six of this document this is one of the deficiencies identified by

02:43:10 is one of the deficiencies identified by the lfb

02:43:11 the lfb in the deficiency notice and if you look at the bottom of your screen it says article 15 1 at the time of the audit your procedures to be followed in the event of serious and imminent danger

02:43:22 event of serious and imminent danger were inadequate it was found that fire action notices were not displayed in your common parts and if you go to steps considered necessary to remedy the failures on the right hand side of your screen in

02:43:35 on the right hand side of your screen in the lower box there adequate procedures for dangerous and imminent danger and for danger areas should be established and followed this can be achieved by displaying fire action notices in the common parts of your building

02:43:49 did you yourself when you did see this document

02:43:52 document uh investigate what procedures existed for grenfell tower for serious and imminent danger no why is that i'm looking at this about fire notices i

02:44:04 i'm looking at this about fire notices i suppose my question would be where final notices put up across the all the states not just grenfell terror i don't know that at this moment let me try it a different way did you investigate

02:44:15 investigate how it had come about notwithstanding what you

02:44:19 what you had been told earlier in the year and notwithstanding the exchanges between the councillors earlier in the year we've seen why it was

02:44:27 was that later on that year um fire action notices were not displayed in the common parts of grenfell tower i can't recall apologize did you look into that i can't recall at that time

02:44:40 into that i can't recall at that time right did it not come as a surprise to you to discover that notwithstanding what janice ray had told you and uh the councillors at the time in a a early in the spring of 2016 uh the lfb had picked this up as a

02:44:52 uh the lfb had picked this up as a deficiency later that year in reflection i would have to accept that now let's um look at five two four tmo10015249

02:45:01 page three at the bottom this is an email to you from councillor blakeman judith blakeman on the 24th of november 2016. uh no let me try again tmo one double

02:45:14 uh no let me try again tmo one double zero

02:45:14 zero one five two four nine

02:45:19 one five five two four nine yes thank you uh and uh very bottom of page three you can just see judith blakeman 23rd november 2016

02:45:30 see judith blakeman 23rd november 2016 and then if we go over to page four uh

02:45:36 four uh she's and this is you could see that it's addressed to you at the very top of your screen page four subject grenfell tower brackets again exclamation mark clay's brackets dear robert while mr daffan engages in hyperbole in

02:45:47 while mr daffan engages in hyperbole in his grenfell action group blog it is read by most residents of the tower and the most recent article causes me concern now uh you you may recall the blog

02:45:59 now uh you you may recall the blog uh not off the top of my head now well let's just look at down at the quotation from it

02:46:06 in this email it and it says this in the last 20 years and despite the terrifying power surge incident in 2013 and recent fire at our tower the residents of grenfell tower

02:46:18 tower the residents of grenfell tower have received no proper fire safety instructions from the kc tmo residents were informed by a temporary notice stuck in the lift and one announcement in a recent regeneration newsletter that they should remain in their flats

02:46:29 that they should remain in their flats in the event of fire there are not and have never been any instructions posted in the grenfell tower notice board or on individual floor as to how residents should act in event of a fire

02:46:41 residents should act in event of a fire anyone who witnessed the recent tower block fire at shepherd's court in nearby shepherds bush will know that the advice to remain in our properties would have led to certain fatalities and we are calling on our landlord to reconsider the advice

02:46:53 on our landlord to reconsider the advice that they have so badly circulated now whether or not you read the blog at the time which was a few days before this do you agree looking at that that mr

02:47:04 do you agree looking at that that mr dufan was mr daphon was clearly concerned the lack of information about what to do in the event of a fire at grenfell tower yes yes

02:47:14 yes yes and his blog as quoted there by judith blakeman suggests at least that the communication of fire safety instructions within that building was not succeeding yes yes yes

02:47:27 was not succeeding yes yes yes now let's get back to the first paragraph of her email i read you the first sentence she goes on

02:47:34 on mr daphon discussed the fire safety issue with me at a recent meeting and i did point out that the instructions in the event of fire had been included in one of the refurbishment newsletters however i do take his point

02:47:45 take his point that instructions are not permanently available on noticeboards nor in a discrete letter to all residents and in appropriate languages where required and i am asking whether this can be rectified

02:47:56 rectified now we we now see what you you did with this

02:48:00 this uh if we go to page two at the bottom of that email run

02:48:08 you

02:48:12 ask janice to respond

02:48:18 and we can see

02:48:28 that response uh on uh page two

02:48:36 towards the bottom of the screen dear councillor blakeman robert has asked me to respond to your email highlighting fire safety issues raided by mr daphon in his blog you see that yeah and then she says this with regard to fire procedures in grenfell tower i

02:48:48 to fire procedures in grenfell tower i can confirm that these were included in newsletters to the block uh and they are also documented on our website

02:48:55 website further we do publish regular fire safety articles in the link magazine to all residents and we write to all new tenants to outline the fire safety strategy the fire strategy for their block the procedure to follow in the event of a fire in their flat and also

02:49:07 fire in their flat and also a fire elsewhere in their block and advise them of the london fire brigades lfb free home safety fire visit and how to access this additionally i can advise that we are currently considering a program of installation

02:49:18 installation of fire action notices similar to those now installed at air and hazelwood towers across all blocks there has been a difference of opinion amongst london fire brigade officers on the value of fitting these

02:49:29 officers on the value of fitting these notices within a block with a state put fire strategy however we are keen to be proactive about this and i can confirm that we will be we will be proceeding with the fitting of these notices at grenfell tower

02:49:40 grenfell tower it's likely that this will be completed within the next two weeks so would you agree with this as per the response to councillor mason

02:49:51 as per the response to councillor mason that had come from janice ray early in 2016. the instructions in the event of a fire were disseminated in a number of ways refurbishment letters

02:50:02 refurbishment letters yes yeah yes website yes regular fire safety articles although

02:50:09 although not necessarily about evacuation in the link magazine yeah and writing to all new tenants to outline the fire safety strategy yes did you think that that was enough

02:50:23 did you think that that was enough i think i think the problem we face i mean i'm not we should have that and reflection should do more whatever the trouble is actually how to give

02:50:34 the trouble is actually how to give information to people and i think one of the things you know if you look now is there are so much more technological ways to actually get if you have the information to get directly to tenants

02:50:46 directly to tenants we find i think generally letters not to be very effective because actually people don't open their mail

02:50:53 mail and we did do quite a lot of lettering but the feedback you know you would go along and

02:50:57 along and it's there so i think fire notices are visible

02:51:01 visible and that's the key thing but i think it's probably something i'd have to say we struggled with how do you actually get people to take the information in uh unless you you meet them individually

02:51:14 uh unless you you meet them individually and that should come down to doing the house and management i think that's also why we try to have the resin engagement events because actually with those events you can have all my

02:51:25 with those events you can have all my staff on the site at the same time and you can have stalls everywhere where we give out that information so there was one at lancaster west i think not long after this where i think the fire good attended but that's me thinking rather than

02:51:37 but that's me thinking rather than knowing so we did try i think to do other things because actually probably that's you just need to keep on trying now if we get back to the bottom of page one of this email run judith blakeman

02:51:48 one of this email run judith blakeman responds to janice ray also on the 24th of november 2016 uh and uh at the very top of page two she says many thanks for this i think

02:52:00 she says many thanks for this i think the tmo often puts too much faith in the link and generic newsletters even when read they are then discarded so residents do not have a permanent record of information unless they have the nature of an archivist

02:52:11 nature of an archivist this is why personalized letters are sometimes of more value however i think in this instance the fire action notices on each floor will meet the problem

02:52:20 didn't counselor blakeman here actually hit the nail on the head the residents needed a permanent record of information on what to do in the event of a fire well i don't think most

02:52:31 well i don't think most i mean if you're meaning that you give someone a letter they file it put it in the drawer and forget it they're not archivists uh i think you probably have to do thing you know in red smack you probably have to do things

02:52:42 red smack you probably have to do things more frequently so there's a constant thing and i think that's what janus was suggesting that you don't just do one thing finally as we do visits we have the

02:52:50 the the fire we get you know it's just like to keep it going but her point i think can be fair that we put a lot of faith in the link in general newsletter but actually

02:53:01 general newsletter but actually feedback historically that those are better than letters because actually you don't have to open the letter there's actually something go through your door and people read it and if you've got something interesting it people do so

02:53:13 people do so the link in the newsletter uh developed over or certainly linked changed quite a lot to try to bring information in from that makes it interesting for people to want to read it and and if you have your

02:53:24 want to read it and and if you have your fire or health and safety articles in there research is showing that's much more effective than the letter through the door which is again though some people open some people don't it's it's a difficult thing about how to communicate

02:53:35 communicate i suppose nowadays what you do you do text you'd have like text alerts that everybody you know because you have people's information so you might just do a text blast you know invent a fire stay poo

02:53:45 stay poo i think at that time that wasn't one of the options sort of thing but obviously nowadays i'm sure people are thinking that because actually most people have a phone your response we can see on page one

02:53:57 your response we can see on page one same day

02:53:58 same day 24th november 2016 judith blakeman copper to janice ray and barbara matthews and you say i'll ask janice to have a look at the area you mentioned and get an update for you on the other subject our experience and others

02:54:09 subject our experience and others his individual letters are not effective either as they're not opened or read or filed

02:54:13 filed this is an area where the company has to do certain things to protect itself and its starts with all new tenants and then reminding

02:54:24 with all new tenants and then reminding residents on a regular basis we also do fire checks and our fire consultants will speak to people when he's doing his checks i agree the fire notices on each floor will address the problem as well

02:54:35 will address the problem as well now does that does that statement there represent your understanding at the time of how an emergency plan was to be communicated to residents

02:54:46 yes yes so just to summarize new letters to new tenants regular reminders presumably through the link magazine mr stokes doing his rounds

02:54:57 stokes doing his rounds and now fire action notices yes and again i think there's a lot of debate about how effective is it so we had lots of notice boards across the

02:55:09 we had lots of notice boards across the organization one of my great opportunities was doing estate checks on notice boards on a regular basis which gave theresa brown huge amounts of difficulties because actually

02:55:20 because actually the noticeables were supposed to be updated there was sort of design so again people take things down if you don't have the glass in front of them so i think there was a concern about how this constant thing of trying to put up

02:55:31 this constant thing of trying to put up notices

02:55:31 notices uh but yes so in principle how do you get people to accept information is a challenge but do you accept the message you're giving here does not appear to have got through

02:55:42 appear to have got through at least to one of grenfell tower's long-standing residents namely mr daphon i accept yes now

02:55:52 let's turn to a completely new topic which is the oversight review of maintenance arrangements mr chairman i'm loathe to give up uh four minutes unless we sit five minutes four minutes earlier three i think

02:56:03 four minutes earlier three i think keep going uh yes then then uh i think i'm in your hands as to whether we start this new topic or not is this a substantial topic it is a substantial enough topic not to

02:56:14 it is a substantial enough topic not to finish it in three or four minutes wouldn't it be sensible to give yourself a clean run it would at two o'clock they would

02:56:19 would i think it would mr black i think it's time we

02:56:22 time we stopped for lunch notwithstanding the fact that we've still got three minutes to go this morning um we'll break down until two o'clock please and please remember not to speak to anyone about your evidence

02:56:33 to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it emily breed thank you very much thank you very much we'd like to go to the usher

02:56:49 thank you very much two o'clock please