Evidence from Paul Duncan of Kensington & Chelsea TMO regarding fire door replacement programme, resident consultation, power surges, and fire safety procedures. Duncan admitted lack of expertise in fire safety and reliance on others for technical advice.
00:00:07 yes would you ask mr duncan to come back in please
00:00:22 right mr duncan already yes thank you thank you very much yes mr kenya thank you sir uh good afternoon mr duncan
00:00:29 duncan before we broke for lunch i was asking you about
00:00:33 you about um attitude to residents and liaison with residents and there was a document to which i couldn't immediately find the correct reference hopefully i have now could i ask us to go to tm00849213
00:00:50 now could i ask us to go to tm00849213 an internal page four
00:00:57 and then you can see at the very top of that page
00:01:01 that page if we could amplify that you emailing mr gibson
00:01:07 to discuss the email chain from mr defan you say in the second sentence just so you are aware these two resins are the main antagonists on the lancaster west west estate regarding grenfell tower can
00:01:20 west estate regarding grenfell tower can you help us why did you describe those two as the main antagonists um perhaps my choice of words wasn't great
00:01:29 great but they were more vocal than other residents
00:01:32 residents or leaseholders on the on the in the tower
00:01:38 okay now can i turn uh now to the um questions from the consultation process that we looked at earlier on and might i ask us to go to tmo double
00:01:51 and might i ask us to go to tmo double zero eight three seven one
00:01:58 and if we could amplify the right-hand page so we see the questions asked in the questionnaire
00:02:10 now might i just ask you to refresh your memory
00:02:14 memory and read through those questions just very briefly
00:02:37 okay um can you remember who drafted those questions oh no i can't sorry it was it would have been
00:02:47 been there have been a few people within the team that would have come up with some suggested questions for residents i can't specifically remember who who come up with these questions would you have been involved mr duncan um not i would have been involved in the
00:03:00 um not i would have been involved in the discussions of the questions but yes looking at those questions it's notable
00:03:06 notable that they don't include any reference to improvement of the interior of the tower um first of all would you agree with that observation
00:03:17 with that observation yes secondly can you help us as to why there were no questions about improving the interior of the tower uh the the the consultation went through various stages following
00:03:29 various stages following some of the planning process and the project the project was built up with various different aspects some of it was internal refurbishment parts it was external refurbishing some of these questions were relating to the
00:03:40 of these questions were relating to the external part of the building and it does i think mention their question would you rather have gas-fired electric heating or hot water so i think there was some reference to that but
00:03:51 there was some reference to that but there was
00:03:52 there was in this some stages there was stages of consultation about the external aesthetics and environment of the building and there was some other specific
00:04:01 specific consultation regarding the internal refurbishment of the building was there any consideration of asking residents their views on the arrangements for fire safety in
00:04:12 on the arrangements for fire safety in the tower
00:04:13 the tower no no i'm aware can you did anyone direct their mind to that point or was it a point that never arose for consideration it didn't rise to consideration was my
00:04:24 it didn't rise to consideration was my understanding did you explain to gtla the reasons why fire doors smoke ventilation interior internal decorations were not included in the questionnaire
00:04:35 included in the questionnaire uh no but again like i say there were specific areas of consultation and i think my recorder was a consultation with residents about the internal refurbishment of the
00:04:48 about the internal refurbishment of the scheme
00:04:48 scheme and i'm sure that's picked up on other newsletters further down um further down the dates of the letter's been sent could i ask us to turn to tm010038903
00:05:08 which hopefully is the status report and if we could go to page 11
00:05:17 and on that page it has said it is understood that roughly halfway down that page it is understood that tim are concerned that the current scheme seeks to fund 8.5 million pounds of work
00:05:29 to fund 8.5 million pounds of work to the external envelope of the building and services infrastructure without producing tangible uplift in the living conditions of the residents of the tower block and the report continues to note value engineering has
00:05:40 continues to note value engineering has been requested to create savings which quotes could be reallocated to alternative works to upgrade kitchens and bathrooms with flats in line with a decent home scheme can you help us with this when
00:05:53 scheme can you help us with this when did the tmo start considering uh the internal conditions of the grenfell tower as part of the project i i my understanding was it was always part of the
00:06:04 the of the project um going back i said previously my understanding was the energy efficiency of the building the thermal efficiency the current layouts
00:06:15 layouts of the um internal parts or some of the flats
00:06:19 flats and to add additional homes which again part of what i was doing on a different scheme
00:06:24 scheme the hidden homes there was an opportunity i recall to do some additional properties within the fabric of the building now um could i ask you to turn to
00:06:46 tm00848793 and on the 22nd of november 2012 at 10 23 janice ray emailed you um about a complaint attaching a copy of her
00:06:58 a complaint attaching a copy of her email
00:06:58 email sent to the lfb this complaint regarding um
00:07:02 um incident on the 3rd of april 2010 she explained that the smoke extraction system was completed after the april 2010 fire and that the system
00:07:12 system operated effectively first of all do you remember this email uh not specifically no sorry um do you remember any issues and discussion in relation to
00:07:24 discussion in relation to the circumstances of um the fire on the 30th of april 2010
00:07:31 um you might have to dive into what you're asking do you remember the question of power surges in the tower they were i was part of they were say part of it but i do remember it was a
00:07:42 part of it but i do remember it was a power surge in one of the buildings um did you rely upon the contents of this advice
00:07:47 advice from this email rather from janice ray when you responded to tunde awadero on the 14th of december 2012 um you'd have to remind me of my
00:07:58 um you'd have to remind me of my response to to of course tunde but um possibly if we let's go to that document t m o h triple zero two seven three two eight
00:08:10 two seven three two eight and we looked at this just before the break
00:08:17 [Applause]
00:08:25 possibly if you go to the second page i'll just let you
00:08:32 refresh your memory particularly the the contents and the bottom half of that
00:08:38 page
00:08:47 yes and so looking at uh how you responded to mr awadero owedero are you able to help us as to whether you relied upon the advice and information given by janice ray
00:08:59 information given by janice ray in her email of 22nd november yes when providing this response on the 14th of november
00:09:05 november yes i did i did rely on some information from janice ray thank you can we now turn to another email from janice ray to you dated the 11th of september 2012 again
00:09:16 dated the 11th of september 2012 again concerning the april 2010 fire that can be found at exo quintuple zero double to zero
00:09:27 quintuple zero double to zero the email is timed at 1054.
00:09:32 if that could be expanded i'll just let you refresh your memory of it thank you
00:10:10 yes do you remember receiving that email and
00:10:13 and i i received it i don't remember it specifically while you were working on the refurbishment project what was your understanding of the status of the functioning of the aov
00:10:24 status of the functioning of the aov system um i didn't have technical knowledge of the system to be honest with you so um but i there was a technical team within the
00:10:35 there was a technical team within the tmo that probably to get to give you a more uh of a detailed answer on that on when you received information from janice ray in relation to the aov uh is it fair to say that you relied
00:10:47 uh is it fair to say that you relied upon what she said and didn't interrogate the information any further yes there was technical team in a tmo that would be a better place to answer and give some advice on on some of the services for the building
00:11:00 services for the building um could i ask you to turn to document
00:11:12 tm010024763 internal uh page two i'll just actually before you move on i'll just let you refresh your memory and read that
00:11:27 do shout when you'd like the opus operator to turn to the next page
00:12:03 okay turn over
00:12:44 okay now um first of all can you help us um understand what were the systems that the tmo operated for maintaining its record
00:12:55 its record in relation to fire safety issues um i'm not entirely sure you'd have to it wasn't my area of management perhaps janice ray would be best answer that
00:13:06 janice ray would be best answer that thank you and looking at the request at the bottom of the page from the gtla for copies of the reports they identify um can you help us did you make efforts to obtain those documents
00:13:19 efforts to obtain those documents to answer the gtla's request i can't recall sorry
00:13:28 could i ask you to turn to tm01 triple zero one eight four six
00:13:39 and to go to page three within this chain of correspondence which hopefully is an internal mail email discussing amendments to your draft response dated the 20th
00:13:51 to your draft response dated the 20th of november 11 36.
00:13:58 so you go slightly further up please this page
00:14:03 this page now you say that um if we go to point four
00:14:12 under the heading instructions or recommendations made to casey tmo emb janus has provided an email see attached between tmo health and safety team and lfb fire safety team following the grenfell fire
00:14:24 grenfell fire um on 30th of april she further states and i support her concern it would clearly not be appropriate to provide a copy of this and so i extracted the info that i thought we could provide when seemed reasonable to give her
00:14:36 when seemed reasonable to give her extracted information has been added to the attached letter can you help us why was it not appropriate to provide gtla with the information they saw can you remember no i can't remember sorry
00:14:55 can i now turn to tmoh0027217
00:15:06 and if we can go to page 4 on this chain of email correspondence to the email dated 6th of january 2013 time 2123
00:15:18 time 2123 tunde aguadero of gtla wrote in the first sentence of the second paragraph of that email we are confused as to whether the current doors are fit for purpose
00:15:29 for purpose and then if we can scroll up this chain of correspondence to the first page to an email of the 11th of feb at 10 12. thank you which says in the fourth
00:15:41 thank you which says in the fourth paragraph of that email mr awadero again wrote please confirm whether we need to change our current doors under the current fire safety and purpose built blocks of flats and under fire safety regulation
00:15:54 flats and under fire safety regulation would you accept at the very least the gtla
00:15:59 gtla were not sure as to whether their doors were compliant with relevant fire safety regulations that's correct uh what did you do to ensure
00:16:10 ensure that they were given the clarity they required
00:16:14 required um i believe i got the information from got information from janice ray but as far as i'm away unless you inspect every single leaseholders door
00:16:25 every single leaseholders door to ensure that it's compliant i'm not entirely sure they were aware that the doors were or were not compliant
00:16:32 compliant can we given that answer can we turn to
00:16:39 tm00846476
00:16:45 and this is an email you sent on the 13th of february 2013 at 9 35 and you said that the current doors provided sufficient resistance
00:16:58 sufficient resistance now if they were replaced they would need to meet current need to meet fire safety standards you explain this is on the advice the fire risk assessor who'd carried out an assessment in november 2012. now first of all can you explain
00:17:11 2012. now first of all can you explain the delay in confirming whether the leaseholder doors were compliant no sorry i'm not sure what the delay was well you'd had um the benefit of the
00:17:23 well you'd had um the benefit of the fire risk assessment in november 2012. you'd had subsequent correspondence from the gtla
00:17:32 the gtla the question is could you have responded sooner given the importance of the subject match of their query
00:17:39 query specifically no i i i'm not an expert in fire doors and i wouldn't be able to give them advice if they were fire doors were compliant or not so i would probably have to wait for information to come through from
00:17:50 information to come through from consultants or other inspections to pass on that advice that's possibly what the delay may have been okay were you able to rely upon your knowledge that you've acquired as part of the replacement program to give any
00:18:02 of the replacement program to give any further comfort to the leaseholders regarding the fire resistant qualities of their doors i wasn't aware what had gone previously with for
00:18:11 with for previous inspections can i now turn we turn
00:18:14 turn we discussed slightly earlier on the question of the power surges um now if we turn up tmo quintuple zero double eight five
00:18:30 and internal page 11 a paragraph 59
00:18:39 and you refer to power surges there in may 2013
00:18:44 may 2013 and you said that your task was to help residents affected by the surges with their insurance claims now mindful of that can we now turn to tmo
00:18:54 tmo double zero eight double five three two zero
00:19:04 and that's an email from peter madison sent on the 21st of may 2013 at 15 26 to alex bosman including you david gibson siobhan rumble and janice ray
00:19:15 gibson siobhan rumble and janice ray and mr madison wrote this i spoke about this with paul and chavon yesterday and paul agreed to look into the matter siobhan is currently in contact with the utilities company paul was going to investigate further and he continued furthermore the issues
00:19:28 and he continued furthermore the issues are potentially serious is that adequate protection in place in the block do we need to take any urgent action
00:19:34 action can we agree a response tomorrow now looking at that email it tends to suggest that your involvement was greater than simply assisting residents with their insurance
00:19:45 assisting residents with their insurance claims
00:19:46 claims would you agree with that um no i would say that i was looking to part of past information to assist peter madison in obtaining what sort of cause and effect was for some of the
00:19:58 effect was for some of the surges but i i was purely acting as a bit of a go-between rather than actually making any decisions or instructions thank you and whose task was it to investigate health and safety and fire
00:20:10 investigate health and safety and fire risk implications of the power surges as i say we did have a technical team within the tmo and we had a health and safety team as well and a fire fire safety consultant
00:20:22 well and a fire fire safety consultant and i would afford it be their responsibility thank you um can i ask you to turn to z-u-r
00:20:30 um treble zero treble zero two five
00:20:45 now if i can ask you to look at page two
00:20:50 and you see at the top of that page it says further investigation sorry this is a report on power surge of the 29th of may 2013 it says further investigation found badly damaged enclosure and service
00:21:02 badly damaged enclosure and service cable in the lower ground floor riser cupboard
00:21:04 cupboard where there is evidence of severe burn and arcing damage this is concurrent with a damaged broken cable on the sub main supply side neutral connected to incoming service mains for flats
00:21:16 flats on inspection we found loose connections and the neutral cable had melted away from the clamp connections and could have caused a fire within the riser police see attached photos on the following sheets
00:21:27 following sheets the client was informed and witnessed the damage did you read that report um possibly i can't recall i would have thought so did you have cause to examine the
00:21:38 did you have cause to examine the reported damage it wasn't my area of expertise and it wouldn't have been for me to to inspect the damage no who would it have been to carry out the inspection and carry out such further workers as necessary
00:21:50 workers as necessary um as i suggested there was a technical team within the tmo managing some of the uh mechanical electrical services that build and i would thought that would be the best place to look internet uh were you familiar with rge
00:22:05 i'm sorry i can't i'm not entirely sure who they are sorry okay um were you aware of any um concerns that have been expressed internally about the quality of their performance in terms of the quality of the work they
00:22:17 in terms of the quality of the work they provided no sorry i'm not entirely sure who
00:22:19 who rge are okay well if you turn if asked the uh opus operator to turn back a page on this letter
00:22:31 and you'll see rg server sorry d amplified please rge services investigated the power surges um were electrical contractors
00:22:43 contractors okay but the name's not familiar to you at all it seems such a long time ago i i don't recall them specifically sorry
00:22:54 them specifically sorry uh are you aware uh from your position whether there was any further internal investigation carried out in relation to the power surges um i i wasn't involved much in the investigation of what the power surges
00:23:06 investigation of what the power surges were what the remedial actions were taken
00:23:09 taken um were you aware of any tmo policy or procedure for investigating any incidents
00:23:14 incidents which were potential or actual fire risks
00:23:17 risks uh no that wouldn't be my area expertise and the health safety team looked into that
00:23:22 that so janice ray and the team you're not saying specifically janice ray but the health and safety team okay um could i ask you to look at rbk quadruple zero double two seven zero
00:23:41 now this was a petition from grenfell tower residents following the power surges
00:23:48 surges it contained 94 signatures um it concerned a as you see from the top
00:23:57 power surges delays in compensation and delaying commencing the refurbishment project
00:24:01 project do you remember receiving that petition first of all um
00:24:10 is there more to it does mine do the job one man scroll down i think
00:24:23 now i was i would think i i don't remember this specifically but i do remember there was some correspondence and
00:24:28 and concerns from residents and leasehold association groups from the tower about the power surges yes do you recall any concerns within the tmo that so many residents had signed a petition regarding
00:24:40 had signed a petition regarding complaints about the building safety and management no i it would have been part it would have been my hour to pass that on seems quite a serious concern that i think some of the senior management have
00:24:51 think some of the senior management have been involved but are you able to speak to the substance of their consideration of this petition
00:24:58 petition no i'm not sure what um no who would be best to ask questions about that probably best to speak with um some of the senior management team mark
00:25:09 some of the senior management team mark anderson
00:25:09 anderson peter madison maybe david gibson thank you may ask you now to turn to tmoh
00:25:18 tmoh treble zero 272 double zero
00:25:33 now this is an email from sasha jevons dated the 15th of january 2013 and she emailed the complaints team with you copied in she asked the complaints team to
00:25:44 in she asked the complaints team to respond to the complaint explaining that mark anderson left and peter madison was starting on the 21st of january she then asked that the complaint be allocated to you and can you remember whether it's from
00:25:58 and can you remember whether it's from this date
00:25:58 this date onwards that complaints from grenfell tower
00:26:01 tower were allocated to you or not no i i would help draft some of the responses but i would have input from some of the senior management team and other
00:26:12 senior management team and other departments from the organization when you say some is it fair to say therefore that you weren't the sole point of reference for complaints regarding grenfell
00:26:24 for complaints regarding grenfell no there was a complaints team and some some they may have managed directly and some were directed to myself to answer
00:26:32 answer were all complaints allocated to you recorded with the tmo complaints team to the best of your knowledge so the best of my knowledge i would have thought so yes were you asked to record
00:26:43 thought so yes were you asked to record all complaints or concerns regarding the refurbishment project um i can't recall sorry were you asked to report on complaints that you responded to
00:26:54 that you responded to internally within the tmo um i i can't recall um i would have thought that the tmo had their own complaints procedure
00:27:03 procedure that took record of these type of complaints and can you recall ever forwarding on any reports of complaints to rbkc for example
00:27:14 example i i'm not entirely sure sorry
00:27:18 can i now turn uh finally to the flat fire door replacement program
00:27:26 program now this was a program which started in early 2011 and by early 2012 the majority of the flat fire doors to be supplied and installed had in fact been installed now is it correct to say that you were
00:27:38 now is it correct to say that you were the project manager for this program for a period in 2012 starting from about march 2012 yes and that you uh took over the project as
00:27:50 and that you uh took over the project as project manager from abigail acosta is that right that's correct yes now in relation to the fire doors replacement program
00:27:58 program is it right that you reported directly to mr halemond yes and did mr halliman report to mark anderson
00:28:07 anderson yes um did carol mcgarry become project manager on the cattle programme team with the intention to take over some of your projects including the fire door replacement program
00:28:18 replacement program in or about october 2012. um
00:28:24 yes i do recall carol being a project manager
00:28:28 manager i i can't recall back then what her brief was and what involvement she had in some of the projects i was managing at the time sorry was there a period of time where both you and carol mcgarry worked on the
00:28:41 both you and carol mcgarry worked on the flat fire door possibly yes thank you um between october 2012 and march 2013 when the contract with uh master door
00:28:52 when the contract with uh master door limited was brought to a close what was your responsibility for the flat fire doors replacement programme between october 2012 and march 2013. uh as i suggested earlier we was was
00:29:04 uh as i suggested earlier we was was working with um i think there was a consultants at the time i can't recall but they were always working on the final account um can you give us a bit more detail as
00:29:16 um can you give us a bit more detail as to what working on the final account um yes it was working on um concluding the the overall valuations for the project and any outstanding works or
00:29:28 and any outstanding works or installation of doors that needs to be done
00:29:30 done or any payments for the scheme or the retentions that need to be released that type of involved management thank you going back to when you first became project manager
00:29:41 to when you first became project manager on the
00:29:42 on the flat entrance door program can you describe for us your principal responsibilities as project manager for this program um as i said i was bringing various
00:29:53 um as i said i was bringing various parts of the projects together that included some of the financial arrangements uh some of the health and safety files and
00:30:03 and again making sure any outstanding works that were not completed were completed was there a system which allowed you to see which doors were yet to be supplied or installed
00:30:14 or installed there was a program to show which doors were outstanding yes and can you give us some detail on how that program operated to the best of your memory
00:30:25 i can't sorry i can't recall what what the arrangements were at the time to complete the outstanding works um
00:30:33 works um i can only assume that the contractor would have given me a completion program that outlined when they were going to fit these outstanding doors and how did you ascertain what problems
00:30:44 and how did you ascertain what problems whether involving individual properties or more general issues needed attention we used to hold um project meetings where we would discuss any certain cases that needed a bit more
00:30:56 any certain cases that needed a bit more involvement and there would be action points following from those discussions with that yes
00:31:01 that yes and how would you describe the overall state of the records relating to the door replacement program were you satisfied that they were adequate um at the time yeah i thought they were
00:31:12 um at the time yeah i thought they were adequate there was a record keeping in place now can i ask you
00:31:18 you now about questions relating to the sign off procedure and the first document i'd like you to look at is m a s treble zero treble zero six one
00:31:47 thank you now these are the minutes of a flat fire doors replacement program meeting on the 22nd of march 2012 which you attended along with janice ray
00:31:58 which you attended along with janice ray graham pollard and andy webster now i'm right that andy webster was the man's master door limited project manager for the program is that right yeah i think you're right yes if we could look
00:32:09 yes if we could look down to point eight it says and i quote installation report to be accepted by andy as the sign off ten percent inspection by paul and andy
00:32:20 ten percent inspection by paul and andy close quotes now was the installation report being referred to here the report from the installer usually signed by the resident to confirm satisfaction with the installation
00:32:33 satisfaction with the installation um i'm not sure i'm not sure what that refers to
00:32:37 refers to installation report i'm not sure whether it's an installation report showing what they've installed or whether it's an as an agreement signature
00:32:48 signature in place from the residence given the
00:32:54 given the other matters uh looked at at this meeting
00:32:59 meeting is it more likely to have been a report signed by
00:33:02 signed by the resident i can't unless you have some
00:33:05 some evidence to show that that's what it was i'm not sure sorry you might thank you now where the minutes refer to ten percent inspection by paul and andy uh that gives impression that you and mr
00:33:17 uh that gives impression that you and mr webster were proposing to inspect ten percent of the completed doors uh together is that a fair summary of what appears to be proposed yet not entirely um i wouldn't inspect
00:33:29 yet not entirely um i wouldn't inspect any doors and didn't inspect any doors and i would probably discharge this duty to a clerk of works and a bit more technical knowledge and expertise in signing off these types of projects
00:33:42 projects now taking a step back can you help us the purpose of the inspection was it to confirm that the doors had been fitted and were fit to be handed over um i can't recall what the
00:33:53 handed over um i can't recall what the brief was for the inspection of the doors and as i say we did have a clerk of works that were assisting us on these types of duties who was the clerk of works that you used um i can't recall the names specifically
00:34:06 um i can't recall the names specifically but i think it was through a company it was through external consultancy company and then again their their name escapes me as well uh i'm i'm surprised if it isn't within some of the documentations for
00:34:18 within some of the documentations for this project um now would the clerk of works inspect the doors with andy webster is that how it ran that would be the intention yes now if i uh may go back to your first
00:34:31 now if i uh may go back to your first statement of paragraph 24 and that can be found at tmo quintuple zero
00:34:37 zero double eight five
00:34:41 thank you and you state at paragraph 24
00:34:47 in the third line i do recall being involved in the post installation inspection to the extent that the external clerk of works who carried out the inspections would advise me that doors had been
00:34:58 would advise me that doors had been checked and that's what you're referring to
00:35:02 to in your previous answer is that right yes
00:35:13 is it right to say that you never met the clerk of works who was responsible for inspecting the doors no i i wouldn't say that's correct at all
00:35:22 at all okay so you met him i would have met yes i can't specifically call where it was but i would have met met yes okay relatively frequently can you give us an idea of the
00:35:33 give us an idea of the regularity no sorry i'm not sure what the arrangements were for meeting up sorry how would how did they advise you when a door had been inspected and was fit to be handed over
00:35:44 fit to be handed over um i would have thought there would be some handover documentation to be provided over to myself or janice ray or someone within the health and safety team
00:35:56 within the health and safety team was it andy webster who told the clerk of works that a door or doors were ready to be inspected i believe that would have happened yes
00:36:06 did you have any uh responsibility for signing off timesheets or invoices for work done by the clerk of works yes
00:36:18 now can i turn to the question of practical completion and can i ask you to turn to tm008690
00:36:30 now this is a long bundle of practical completion forms relating to a number of flat doors installed under the program as you see
00:36:41 under the program as you see from the date they all relate to doors installed before you became the project manager and can you see that there is a space on the form to be signed by the contractor
00:36:52 form to be signed by the contractor master dool the lhc technical officer and the client now was that the form that you expected to receive when doors were ready to be signed off
00:37:04 were ready to be signed off yes do you recall receiving completed forms for each door installed and handed over to the tmo i can't recall specific documents
00:37:17 i can't recall specific documents no can you recall having to sign a form in relation to each and every door that had been installed and handed over no as i suggested i was later in the projects and this may have
00:37:29 later in the projects and this may have this may have been before my time with these documentations the second signature there which says signed for by lhc technical officer is it right to assume that that normally
00:37:40 is it right to assume that that normally refers to the clerk of works are you engaged
00:37:44 engaged to me that would seem yes
00:37:47 and am i right in thinking that by the time you were involved in the program lhc was no longer involved can you remind me what lhc stands for
00:37:58 can you remind me what lhc stands for the london housing consortium okay thank you um and your question was very again don't worry um by the time you became project manager is it right the lhc were no
00:38:09 manager is it right the lhc were no longer involved um i can't recall sorry i'm sure they were
00:38:13 were i thought i would have thought they were still involved and was uh a practical completion form the only document you received when a door was signed off
00:38:24 again like i say i i was at the end of the project and i don't recall receiving many of these types of documents these certificates handover certificates okay
00:38:35 okay could i now turn to the question of installation and could i invite you to look at mas
00:38:44 quadruple zero zero two five four
00:38:54 thank you and here we have minutes of meeting for the flat fire flat door replacement program 8th of march
00:39:04 and if we can turn to item 3.5 on the second page
00:39:10 it states that contractor reported problems with access to some properties which have either not responded letters sent or refused access and the website send lists of properties to paul d who will confirm how these are to be
00:39:21 d who will confirm how these are to be progressed can you recall if this list of outstanding properties was provided um i'm sure it was yes can you recall whether any of those
00:39:32 can you recall whether any of those properties were at grenfell tower i'm sorry i can't remember specific properties could i ask you to look at item 5.1 in these minutes
00:39:45 it says a reported issue with snips to some doors recorded can you recall what the reported issues with snibbs
00:39:56 what the reported issues with snibbs wars
00:39:58 wars um i think i do recall this actually and some doors on street properties that the um the the snib of i recorded is right
00:40:10 the the snib of i recorded is right there there are two operations one where you pull the handle down from the outside
00:40:14 outside uh and you can walk straight into the property or one where you pull the handle down and it doesn't engage the lock or the latch and you can't open the door and where some properties were opening up onto the
00:40:25 some properties were opening up onto the street for security measures we wanted ones where you put down the latch the handle when it didn't engage the latch
00:40:32 the latch i think that's what that's referring to i'm grateful now record keeping um can you remember where there was a list of newly installed
00:40:40 installed doors maintained by the tmo the list of newly installed sorry can you maintained was there a list of newly installed doors
00:40:50 doors on this particular project yeah yes should they have been entered on the keystone system um i think that's the end result yes and when you started as project manager
00:41:01 when you started as project manager had they been listed on the keystone system
00:41:05 system i i i don't recall i'm not sure i wasn't managing the keystone asset management database at the time do you recall there being problems about the accuracy of records relating to the flat
00:41:17 of records relating to the flat no sorry no when you took over did you ensure that details of newly replaced doors were listed on keystone um i would have passed i
00:41:28 passed i i quote recorded as a guy john parsons i believe or someone who works on
00:41:36 on the keystone data and why i remember that is because i passed him information from some of the previous refurbishment projects i was working on and i would have thought in this instance i would have passed him the
00:41:48 instance i would have passed him the information to upload onto keystone thank you
00:41:50 thank you could i ask you now to go to tm00868367
00:42:02 could i ask you now to go to tm00868367 apologies is an excel spreadsheet and if i could ask the oprah's operator to
00:42:08 to go down to row one two five on the first tab of the spreadsheet
00:42:29 thank you now
00:42:33 is the start of the entries from town from row one two five they're relating to the flat fire doors replacement program is that right
00:42:44 replacement program is that right yes that's what it seems to be and all the doors there appear to be entered by you not ever not abigail acosta is that right um
00:42:55 is that right um i no i don't i wouldn't have personally put this data entry in um and i think my name is there as part of the management of the project not the data entry
00:43:10 okay
00:43:13 now can i take you to m a s quadruple zero zero two five
00:43:24 zero hopefully should be an email of the 15th of november 2012.
00:43:33 and this contained a spreadsheet which if we scroll down spreadsheet probably puts a highly proof scroll further down
00:43:45 there we go um it sets out amongst other things the doors which are yet to be installed
00:43:52 installed and you see there roughly halfway down list three doors not yet installed at grenfell um can you help us how did you record and list doors that remained outstanding
00:44:06 i think this is it isn't it shows you what doors were um outstanding to be to be fitted so nothing more than this um i'm not suggesting there should be it's just no no no i'm not sure
00:44:18 it's just no no no i'm not sure where there was any other documents than this no
00:44:22 this no and what documents did you rely upon for um keeping track of these for example did you rely solely upon master door documents or was that some other source of information you used to track
00:44:34 information you used to track installation um i i believe there was some the clerk of works again would would do
00:44:41 would do their report but uh predominantly we i'm sure we were relied on this information now could i now turn to handover
00:44:52 now could i now turn to handover information um did you have any discussions with mance mustador about how to call them back for repairs during the six-month product defect period
00:45:04 product defect period um they were record where there was a defect relating to the the door itself or the installation of the door then we would raise um we would send them an email to request them to return and carry out the
00:45:16 request them to return and carry out the repairs
00:45:16 repairs okay um did you have any discussions with mans master door about providing training
00:45:22 training for tmo employees on how to maintain and repair the doors i can't recall having that conversation did mastador provide you with any handover information relating to the
00:45:33 handover information relating to the maintenance or repair of doors uh i'm sure that would have been part of the hannover the health and safety file that's handed over to the tmo can you remember whether that was so i
00:45:44 can you remember whether that was so i can't remember that specific document no sorry
00:45:48 sorry mr duncan thank you now it's probably an appropriate time for us to see whether there are any further questions for you mr duncan so if i might ask you to rise from time to time have you i've exhausted my star
00:45:59 time have you i've exhausted my star right well at this point mr duncan we have to give council a chance just to check there aren't any questions lurking in the
00:46:05 in the storeroom that he hasn't already asked and also we give an opportunity for people who are not in the room to send questions in so we're going to have a short break i'm going to say until
00:46:15 until three o'clock would that be enough time i think so and then we'll see if there are any more questions just to sweep up okay thank you all right so if you'd like to go with the usher don't talk to anyone about your evidence when they're
00:46:26 anyone about your evidence when they're out of the room thank you
00:46:35 right through thank you thank you very
00:46:40 much
01:13:16 yes would you ask mr duncan to come back in please
01:13:30 mr duncan i'm sorry we kept you out much longer than i said we would i'm afraid sometimes um we're ready to go on if you are yes thank you have you found some more questions some can you you have i have right mr duncan thank
01:13:43 you have i have right mr duncan thank you very much for your patience um first of all could i ask you could i ask the opus operator rather to turn up page 120 of today's transcript at lines
01:13:58 22-25 and at the bottom uh you see i asked you a question about investigation of health and safety matters and you responded we did have a
01:14:09 matters and you responded we did have a technical team within the tmo and we had a health and safety team as well and a fire safety consultant who was that fire safety consultant um the the person i was involved with at
01:14:22 um the the person i was involved with at the time was a gentleman called carl stokes he was the the advisor that i was referring to there
01:14:30 there thank you um next question in relation to the door replacement program um who if anyone had responsibility for producing a health and safety file for the 2012 door replacement program
01:14:44 for the 2012 door replacement program the health and safety fire at the end of the project was produced predominantly by the contractors that gathered all the information that was relevant for the scheme and did they produce one did you see it i can't
01:14:56 they produce one did you see it i can't possibly i would have thought so yes i can't remember calling it specifically
01:15:02 but you can't say one way or the other i can't remember seeing it okay um could i now turn to a complaint that you received from mr alodero
01:15:14 received from mr alodero dated the 14th of november 2012 and the reference is at tm00837229
01:15:29 and i just want you to refresh
01:15:35 your memory that there was a response drafted on the 20th of november 2012 and that's at tmo one treble zero one eight four
01:15:46 one treble zero one eight four six
01:15:50 if we could turn to that
01:15:57 if we could scroll down just check this is the same
01:16:04 now i may come back to this just to double check the accuracy of the references because these reference came through in relation to a question in the interval but can you remember when you
01:16:16 interval but can you remember when you remember we were looking at the complaint from mr aoderu and you prepared a response and you told us in evidence that you've lied in part of a contribution from janice ray
01:16:27 janice ray yes can you remember whether there was an earlier draft of that response in relation to which you'd invited comments i can't recall sorry possibly now in the response that you provided to
01:16:41 now in the response that you provided to the leaseholders complaint it contained advice or contain matters which covered fire safety material now given that you had no
01:16:52 material now given that you had no background in fire safety can you help us as to why you communicated advice regarding fire safety matters in response to that complaint
01:17:01 complaint um i think i was trying to be helpful by answering his concerns and would have relayed the information back from what
01:17:08 from what how what i was beginning from from possibly the health and safety officers or the fire safety officer okay and i think when we were looking at the contributions you received in relation
01:17:20 contributions you received in relation to that response you referred to having a contribution from janice ray can you recall whether there was anyone else from whom you received help in preparing the response i can't remember specific people that
01:17:32 i can't remember specific people that had an input into that apart from as i say the health and safety team and the fire safety officers officer and is it right to say that it didn't fall to you on what you've told
01:17:43 didn't fall to you on what you've told us in your evidence today to give advice to residents of what they should do in the event of a fire that's not my area of expertise no i'll just relay information that was given to
01:17:54 just relay information that was given to me
01:17:55 me were you aware of the of weather and if so how many fire drills had been carried out at grenfell during your time at the tmo i i wouldn't be aware of that no sorry
01:18:06 be aware of that no sorry now in terms of dealing with the smoke extraction system is it right that you were aware of um any or were you aware of any substantial remedial work to that system since 2010 i i'm
01:18:20 since 2010 i i'm no you'd have to ask some of the technical team within the tmo what what repairs or works were carried out to that system did you have any considered reviews sorry any considered views regarding the operation its
01:18:33 regarding the operation its effectiveness of the smoke extraction system
01:18:36 system i didn't have any personal opinion against that no sorry and so that when you were communicating information regarding the smoke extraction information you were communicating information from others but you didn't have any
01:18:48 others but you didn't have any expert contribution or informed contribution to make yourself to those views that's right i would have relied on information from others
01:18:58 uh could i uh penultimately ask you about your knowledge of any relationships or knowledge of relationships between employees of the tmo and contractors
01:19:11 employees of the tmo and contractors were you aware of the fact that or did you know that whether peter madison knew steve blake of ryden no sorry did you know of any
01:19:22 of ryden no sorry did you know of any friendship or acquaintance or professional relationship between mr blake and sasha jevons no sorry did you know of any relationship for example between mr blake and mark anderson no thank you um when we were discussing
01:19:37 no thank you um when we were discussing uh the substance of the consultation exercise that was carried out with residents
01:19:42 residents you referred to the use and deployment of samples of cladding now can you tell us or can you remember now
01:19:49 now when the samples were obtained and when they were displayed provided to tenants or shown to tenants i should say no i can't remember specifics but i do
01:20:00 can't remember specifics but i do remember attending an even consultation meeting where the samples were laid on the table color samples
01:20:06 samples and samples of various types of cladding and other materials were in on display and i but i can't recall exactly when that was can you remember whether the
01:20:17 remember whether the samples of cladding were put before residents on one or more occasions more than one occasion can you remember how many sorry i can't remember exactly did you keep a
01:20:29 remember exactly did you keep a documentary record anywhere of the substance of the tenant's responses to the consultation exercises you conducted them i will afford they would have filed
01:20:40 them i will afford they would have filed them on the system and they would have formed part of the newsletters in correspondence to some of the consultation and some of the questions thank you if you could give me just a moment
01:21:08 can i just clarify one matter just that we're discussing about the response to a complaint you received could we go to tmoh02732
01:21:27 could we go to tmoh02732 now that's dated the 20th of november 2012. and it's a response to mr howard derry's complaint of the
01:21:38 to mr howard derry's complaint of the 14th of november and if i could ask the opus operator to keep that
01:21:45 keep that document up on the screen but also put up
01:21:54 tmoh0027328
01:22:01 now as far as we can tell
01:22:06 those letters are identical could i ask you just to cast your eye over them just to double check that you consider them to be identical say for the date
01:22:18 identical say for the date they seem to be yes
01:22:21 and might ask the opus operator to turn to the second page of each letter
01:22:37 yes okay now just the final page i think it must be a signature
01:22:48 okay okay and if i could oscillate this operators put those down and to put up tmo one treble zero one eight four six
01:23:06 one eight four six we see at the bottom of the page mark anderson
01:23:10 anderson asked dan wood did a response get sent to our mr alwaderu and if we scroll up highmark seems not looking at that email chain does it seem
01:23:22 looking at that email chain does it seem likely that the response was the letter dated the 14th of december which is identical say for the date
01:23:29 date to the draft of the 20th of november um did yes the letters seem the same but i can't recall what they were um why they were two different dates and
01:23:41 um why they were two different dates and what they
01:23:41 what they response they were referring to thank you very much uh mr duncan the final thing now for me is to thank you for coming to give evidence today we're very grateful
01:23:53 give evidence today we're very grateful thank you thank you well mr duncan i'm going to add my thanks to those of mr kenya it's been very helpful to hear from you i'm glad to say we got through your evidence in rather less time than you
01:24:05 evidence in rather less time than you may have expected anyway we've finished for the afternoon thank you very much indeed and you're now free to go
01:24:11 go thank you very much thank you
01:24:24 good thank you mr canoe 10 o'clock tomorrow mr anderson right thank you very much well that in that case we'll rise at this point and resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning please thanks
01:25:25 you