Lifts Expert Evidence - Wednesday 21st July 2021 (1/1)

Full transcript

00:00:41 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear evidence from mr roger howkins one of the experts instructed by the inquiry yes mr clear so thank you may call mr

00:00:53 yes mr clear so thank you may call mr hawkins thank you

00:01:04 good morning mr hopkins good morning i gather you're going to make the oath i am going to make the ask right there should be a testament in your on the desk there have you got take the testament in your right hand please

00:01:15 testament in your right hand please and read the words on the screen i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much no sit down and make yourself comfortable

00:01:26 sit down and make yourself comfortable thank you very much

00:01:41 thank you very much right when you're ready thank you sir um first of all would you please confirm your name roger ernest hawkins mr hawkins good morning thank you very much for

00:01:52 you very much for attending today first of all if i can give you some advice as to how to give your evidence today

00:02:01 today first of all if at any time you require a break please say so that's not a problem

00:02:07 problem secondly if you could keep your voice up that would be much appreciated that's so that the shorthand writer can capture everything you say and capture it accurately please don't nod alone to an answer if

00:02:21 please don't nod alone to an answer if you mean yes or no please say so as the case may be and finally although the intention is that my questions are short and comprehensible it might well be that they become long and incomprehensible if that's so please

00:02:33 incomprehensible if that's so please shout and i'll break it up and try and put a proper question to you is that okay yes it is thank you now if we could start with your instructions and that you were

00:02:44 your instructions and that you were instructed on the 5th of february 2019 to assist the inquiry and its investigation of the lifts at grenfell tower your instructions are set out in paragraph one

00:02:55 paragraph one of your main report and the reference can be found at rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash 8 but in summary you were instructed to

00:03:06 8 but in summary you were instructed to consider

00:03:06 consider the following matters first of all relevant legislation regulation and guidance for fire lifts and firefighting lifts in the 1970s original design and construction 2005

00:03:17 original design and construction 2005 the first lift refurbishment and 2012 2016 the second lift refurbishment is that right that is correct uh secondly did the lifts is installed refurbished in 1972

00:03:29 refurbished in 1972 2005 and 2012 to 16 comply with the relevant standards is that right that's correct thirdly did the tenant management organization's policy on firefighting

00:03:41 organization's policy on firefighting lifts comply with the relevant standards is that right that is correct fourthly if they did not to what extent did they fail to comply and what impact would this have had on their functionality

00:03:52 their functionality particularly with regard to fire safety and their ability to function in a fire is that right that's correct fifthly were the lifts maintained an appropriate standard and in compliance with the relevant standards

00:04:03 compliance with the relevant standards in industry practice is that right that's correct and finally how did the lifts perform on the night of the fire what were the reasons for any failure to perform is that right too that's correct thank you now you

00:04:15 that's correct thank you now you produced

00:04:16 produced your main report in september 2020 and that can be found at rho quadruple zero treble zero three and 14 appendices came with that report

00:04:26 report which can be found at rho quadruple zero trouble zero four is that right that's correct and since then you've also provided a supplementary report in april of this year

00:04:37 year which can be found at rho quadruple zero trouble zero five and that was provided following the receipt of additional evidence is that right

00:04:44 right that's correct and as indicated in the declaration in both those reports um can i take it you've understood your duty to the inquiry and complied with it i have yes and you've given uh this

00:04:57 i have yes and you've given uh this evidence in the same way as you would to a court of law i would yes and are the factual matters set out in both your reports true to the best of your knowledge and belief they are and finally do those reports

00:05:09 they are and finally do those reports taken together accurately set out your opinions on the matters on which you'll have received instructions they do thank you

00:05:16 you now if i can turn to the first substantive element of your evidence today and that's your qualifications could i ask you to go to rho quadruple zero

00:05:27 zero treble zero four forward slash three five eight now set up there is your cv but if i can summarize it thus first of all you're a

00:05:38 summarize it thus first of all you're a consultant in the vertical transportation team at arab is that right that's correct you advise all parts of the firm both in this country and overseas on the use of lifts escalators and

00:05:49 on the use of lifts escalators and passenger conveyors in new developments and the upgrading of existing developments is that right correct you have an hnc in something called electrical is that right that's correct what is meant by the word

00:06:02 that's correct what is meant by the word electrical here it's the

00:06:07 it's the the hnc electrical uh

00:06:11 qualification it's a course for a four-year course and you have over 50 years of experience in the lift industry is that right that's correct and you've worked as a lift engineer on

00:06:22 and you've worked as a lift engineer on a number of tall buildings including 122 leadenhall street in the city that's correct the bt tower in london correct

00:06:30 correct canada water in london correct and uh cork county hall in the republic of ireland

00:06:36 ireland that's correct now um can i uh deal first of all um with the structure of my questioning today and i'm going to ask you about the principal conclusions set out in your

00:06:48 principal conclusions set out in your principle and supplementary reports generally speaking i shall follow the structure of both of those reports in my examination of you but before we get into the detail i

00:06:59 but before we get into the detail i thought it would be useful if we just discuss briefly the basics of lifts themselves is that okay

00:07:05 okay that's okay now can we turn to page 114 of dr lane's original presentation to this inquiry which can be found at l a quadruple zero

00:07:17 which can be found at l a quadruple zero five four eight one forward slash one one four

00:07:27 now this is a diagram showing the various components of a lift system is that right that's correct

00:07:34 correct now i'm starting with the diagram on the left hand side of this page what would you find within the lift well

00:07:45 what would you find within the lift well i expect the all the lift equipment which is shown on the the right hand side thank you now what are the guide rails and what do they do the guide rails

00:07:58 and what do they do the guide rails guide the guide the lift car up and down the lift shaft and also they guide the counterweight up and down the shaft now looking at the lift cart itself

00:08:09 now looking at the lift cart itself that is shown on the diagram at the right hand side of the page can you explain for us how the lift car works

00:08:18 the lift car

00:08:21 is is connected to the counterweight by suspension cables which is shown on that diagram it goes over the machine in the lift mode room

00:08:32 mode room and down to the counterweight so when the lift moves the counterweight moves as well

00:08:37 as well and what are the key features of the lift car

00:08:41 lift car lift car the key features would be the door operator

00:08:47 the car walls the car operating panel which is the buttons and the indicators thank you what is an auto dialer

00:08:58 thank you what is an auto dialer an auto dialer is an automatic hands-free telephone where someone is trapped

00:09:05 trapped in a stalled lift they can get access to the outside there is no handset what is a lift controller the controller is the brains of the lift

00:09:16 the controller is the brains of the lift which connects the which connects the push buttons to the floors so if you press a floor lift controller decides the quickest way to get to that floor and also

00:09:27 and also opens gives signals to open the lift car doors

00:09:31 doors and close the lift car doors the lift motor room is that the same as the lift machine room yes it would be who has access to that room

00:09:43 authorised people so i'd expect the the maintenance engineer the insurance inspector and anybody who is authorised to go in that lyft motor

00:09:54 is authorised to go in that lyft motor room because it is a dangerous place to be because it has rotating equipment could i ask us now to turn to a diagram which shows a typical landing doors and that can be

00:10:05 a typical landing doors and that can be found at rho quadruple zero treble zero nine

00:10:13 and if that could be expanded slightly now i think i'm writing saying this diagram comes from a guide produced by you

00:10:21 you called lift modernization design guide the second edition is that understanding correct that is correct

00:10:28 correct now the bottom picture is captioned local authority building apologies the bottom of the typescript is being

00:10:35 is being cut um

00:10:38 cut um it shows typical landing doors is that right that's typical yes asking the basic question first what are landing doors landing doors are a safety feature

00:10:51 landing doors are a safety feature which protects the general public from falling

00:10:54 falling into the shaft they are connected to the lift car

00:10:58 lift car so when the car doors open the landing doors open at the same time now if the bottom diagram could be expanded

00:11:06 expanded um could you explain for the panel the various

00:11:10 various relevant components of a typical landing door

00:11:14 door and if you could start clockwise with the alarm bell and move around right the alarm bell is connected to the lift car so if anybody is trapped in a stalled lift

00:11:27 anybody is trapped in a stalled lift ring the bell and someone at the ground floor where there could be a caretaker will know someone is is trapped in the lift car

00:11:37 lift car because on a tall building you wouldn't be able to hear the bell if it was in on top of the lift car so that is normal place for it to be so lift number is self-explanatory yes emergency door release the clue is in

00:11:49 emergency door release the clue is in the title i suspect but could you now just give a basis this is a door release

00:11:54 release which authorized people would have the key to so they can gain access to the lift car

00:11:59 lift car roof access to the lift pit um and that is it really vision panel is self-explanatory similarly combined push and floor

00:12:10 push and floor indicators moving around clockwise the car push button equally self-explanatory the car ventilation grills and car light

00:12:21 the car ventilation grills and car light again they are what they indicate presumably that's it correct any further explanation you'd like to provide to the panel not going to work how does a manual

00:12:32 not going to work how does a manual fire control switch work

00:12:37 a manual for my control switch works they're usually at the fire service access level and the fireman would come along with this authorized key

00:12:49 this authorized key open the open the either the door break a glass

00:12:53 a glass or insert the key and twist the key turn the key so it engages the fire control circuits thank you and where would the fire control switch usually be found

00:13:05 control switch usually be found it's usually found at the ground floor or

00:13:08 or where the fire service access level would be

00:13:11 would be um we've heard in evidence over the past week or so reference to a drop key can you help us what are the different types of drop key [Music]

00:13:21 [Music] the drop key was a key developed by the express lift company i believe for local authority use it was supposed to be secure and was used extensively

00:13:32 secure and was used extensively on local authority lifts the most common key for emergency release now is it is classified as a euro key which is used throughout

00:13:45 a euro key which is used throughout europe

00:13:45 europe and there are tens of thousands of lifts with the euro key and they are to a specific dimension and are they the ones of the triangular they are yes um is the drop key used

00:13:58 they are yes um is the drop key used uh the same for the fire control switch is that the same one that would you described earlier which is used to open the landing doors it would be yes

00:14:10 finally what is the automatic fire recall system and how does it work the automatic fire control system is a built-in building safety device which when the

00:14:21 which when the the detector in the fire is detected or heat is detected the lifts automatically return to the ground floor and lock and are isolated until the

00:14:32 and lock and are isolated until the the fire alarm detector has been reset thank you now could we turn on to a separate topic which is the relevant standards

00:14:42 standards and the first part of your instructions invited you to consider the relevant legislation regulation and guidance for fire lifts and fire fighting lifts in the 1970s so the time of original

00:14:53 in the 1970s so the time of original design and construction of the tower 2005 the first post-construction lift works

00:14:59 works and 2012 2016 at the time of the second lift works otherwise known as project two now in your instructions and in your report you refer to those generically as the relevant standards is

00:15:10 generically as the relevant standards is that right that is correct now um so that people can orientate themselves in your report legislation and standards are dealt with in section e

00:15:20 e of your principal report and that can be found at rho quadruple zero treble zero three forward slash forty five

00:15:29 five we don't need to go to them yet but if we can just explain by way of background um first of all in section e you refer to british standards what are british standards

00:15:41 standards british standards are national standards published by the british institution and they are good practice that brings me to my next question

00:15:52 next question are they exemplars of good practice or are they provide mandatory rules that must be complied with they are good practice you in section e

00:16:04 they are good practice you in section e you also refer to european norms or codes

00:16:08 codes what is the difference between european norms on the one hand and british standards on the other

00:16:15 basically the british standard is an is a european version of the european norm there's very little difference in them do the european norms reflect good practice or

00:16:28 european norms reflect good practice or by contrast do they contain sets of rules that must be complied with they are mandatory in your report you also refer to guidance from the lift and escalator industry association leia to whom some

00:16:41 industry association leia to whom some of the

00:16:42 of the witnesses have referred over the past week what is leia there is a the lift and escalator industry association is that the authoritative trade body it is yes

00:16:54 is yes you refer to guidance documents published by leia what is the status of those documents in your view

00:17:01 your view it's industry good practice

00:17:06 and just for the avoidance of doubt am i right in understanding that analysis of the building regulations is outside the scope of your expertise that is correct now if we can turn to the first element

00:17:17 now if we can turn to the first element of your instructions which is the relevant standards at the time of construction of the tower and if we could turn to rho quadruple zero trouble zero three

00:17:29 quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash 46 and in terms of british standards you first identify bs 26 double five forward slash one

00:17:40 bs 26 double five forward slash one 1990 70 1970 i should say specification for lifts

00:17:45 for lifts escalators passenger conveyors and part and nosters part one general requirements for electric hydraulic and hand powered lifts that standard set out the definition of a fireman's lift is that

00:17:57 definition of a fireman's lift is that right

00:17:57 right that's great and it was published as its title suggests in february 1917 correct before we go into this can you describe

00:18:06 describe for us the basic elements of a fireman's lift

00:18:12 basically a fireman's lift is a normal lift

00:18:16 lift with just a a fire recoil switch on the ground floor and in that context what is in the context of a fireman's lift what is the fire control switch

00:18:29 lift what is the fire control switch it's what we'd classify in the previous part is

00:18:32 part is the fireman switch it's a switch which will when you turn the key you'll bring the lift down and it's under the fireman's control thank you now also in your report to explain the

00:18:43 now also in your report to explain the requirements of cp3 1971

00:18:47 cp3 1971 and the reference for that standard as a bsi quadruple zero one seven two nine we don't need to go to it um but in your report you explained that you agree with dr lane that cp3

00:18:59 you agree with dr lane that cp3 was likely the basis for the design of grenfell tower is that right i believe it is yes and is it right uh to say that the requirements of cp3 insofar as they're concerned lifts are

00:19:11 insofar as they're concerned lifts are substantially the same as those found in bs2651

00:19:15 bs2651 1917. that is my understanding yes now can we go back to a diagram prepared by dr lane for her presentation at phase one which can be found at b l a so that's bravo lima alpha

00:19:28 b l a so that's bravo lima alpha quadruple zero five four eight one forward slash one one five i'll just give you a brief opportunity

00:19:40 i'll just give you a brief opportunity to familiarize yourself again with that diagram

00:19:43 diagram but the question is this does that accurately summarize in your view the requirements and components of a far left yes it does

00:19:54 a far left yes it does thank you

00:19:58 now if i could go back to the relevant standards at the time of project 1 so this is 2003 through to 5

00:20:07 5 which are considered in section e e for echo 2

00:20:11 echo 2 of your report and this can be found at rho quadruple 0 0 3 forward slash and i'd like to focus in particular on the british standards

00:20:22 in particular on the british standards that you set out in that part of your report at section e

00:20:26 section e point 2 0.3 which can be found at page

00:20:32 59. now you set out at paragraphs 45 and 46 which precede this that it is outside the scope of your expertise to

00:20:43 outside the scope of your expertise to comment on approved document b and its requirements but there you note the evidence of dr lane at phase one that in 2005 adb stated that firefighting lift installations

00:20:55 firefighting lift installations should be constructed and installed in accordance with the recommendations of section 3 of british standard double five double eight five nineteen ninety one is that a fair summary of your position it is yes

00:21:08 summary of your position it is yes now if i can um turn to discuss with you in more detail bs double five double eight five in 1991 and if i could ask for these purposes to turn to page 60 of your report

00:21:24 and we can see there in the bottom third of the page this standard has a somewhat clumsy title of five precautions in the design construction of use of buildings

00:21:36 construction of use of buildings part five code of practice for firefighting stairs and lifts and it was published in august of 1991 is that right that's correct now at this juncture i'd like to concentrate on what

00:21:48 concentrate on what that standard says about the definition and requirements of a firefighting lift will come back later to the circumstances in which a firefighting lift should be provided but if we could turn to that standard

00:22:01 but if we could turn to that standard which is at bsi quadruple zero one seven two one forward slash seven

00:22:12 one seven two one forward slash seven now if we can go to paragraph 2.10 it's on the

00:22:15 on the midway down the right-hand column and it's something we've looked at uh frequently during the course of the past week

00:22:22 past week that is the definition of a firefighting lift is that right that is correct and what it provides is this that a firefighting lift is a lift designated to have

00:22:30 to have additional protection with controls that enable it to be used under the direct control of the fire service in the event of fire and under the capitalized

00:22:42 and under the capitalized note the firefighting lift is a development of the type of lift known as a fireman's lift although existing fireman's lift installations may be replaced fireman's lifts should not be used in

00:22:53 fireman's lifts should not be used in new installations only lifts complying with this coat of code of practice can be designated firefighting lifts now for our purposes and a particular project one

00:23:04 project one is that the relevant relevant definition of a firefighting lift it is now if we could go to page 12 in this standard

00:23:15 page 12 in this standard and section 2

00:23:19 concerns planning and construction and first of all deals with firefighting shafts first of all can you explain

00:23:30 explain what is a firefighting shaft is a is a protected area

00:23:37 area which contains the firefighting lift which will be in the in the fire fighting will lift well and that's the relevance of firefighting shaft of firefighting lift it yes now if we can go to page

00:23:49 it yes now if we can go to page 26 within the standard and section 3. that concerns as you can see from the title firefighting lift installation and the key features are set out there

00:24:01 and the key features are set out there if we can look at the bottom left-hand corner of this page paragraph 11 deals with firefighting lift cars

00:24:13 lift cars can you help us what are the principal requirements of in relation to a lift car

00:24:21 the lift car shall be of a minimum size to come

00:24:25 to come to allow the firefighters to get to get in and use their equipment it shall have power rated doors and it should have an emergency trapdoor for for releasing trapped firefighters

00:24:38 for for releasing trapped firefighters can we thank you can we turn over the page to page 27 and paragraph 12.

00:24:44 that concerns firefighting lift wells um what are the key requirements of this standard in relation to lift wells

00:24:54 um they've got to be strong enough to run

00:24:59 run left they've got they've got to have fire protection so the lift can work during fire conditions so you can run with heat water soot temperatures and staying on this page

00:25:13 temperatures and staying on this page but looking at the bottom right hand corner we can see the paragraph 13 is concerned with the various regardments to protect the lift machine room is that correct that's correct and it's too essentially

00:25:24 that's correct and it's too essentially it incorporates it within the firefighting shaft that's correct and if we turn over the two pages rather to page 29 hopefully we come to paragraph 14 which is

00:25:35 come to paragraph 14 which is firefighting lift control systems again can you help us understand how is a firefighting lift control system intended to operate the control systems

00:25:46 intended to operate the control systems intend to operate when the firefighters come to the building they need control of the lift without anybody the general public using it

00:25:55 it so they insert their key into the firefighting switch which will then bring the lift car down safely to the fire service access level with the firefighters out and what are the

00:26:06 firefighters out and what are the principal requirements in relation to that system imposed under the code could you repeat the question yes of course what are the principal requirements of a firefighting lift control system

00:26:18 a firefighting lift control system it has to be

00:26:21 it cannot be interfered with by other people in the building so the landing control systems landing buttons on the landings cannot are not operated the firemen have complete access to the lifts they can go

00:26:33 complete access to the lifts they can go anywhere in the building with on that lift with safety thank you can we now go to page 32 and to paragraph 15.

00:26:44 you see that concerns fire service communications system essentially that provides for an intercom system is that a a blunt but fair summary that is correct

00:26:55 a blunt but fair summary that is correct and if we can go to page 33

00:27:00 we see that section 4 of the standard concerns electrical services and paragraph 16 in particular concerns the requirement for a secondary power supply

00:27:09 supply in short why is a secondary power supply required

00:27:15 during a fire there is a possibility that the primary electrical supply could file

00:27:22 file which you don't want so the secondary power supply is a backup set of supply for the firefighter so they can fight the fire with ease without without worrying if

00:27:33 with ease without without worrying if there is a a fault which is going to affect the power supply thank you and if we could turn

00:27:38 turn finally to page 35 and section 5

00:27:43 the standard here deals with routine inspection and maintenance again can you summarize for the panel the essential requirements under section five um

00:27:58 the the requirement is that daily the operation

00:28:02 operation should we release any doors by an automatic release mechanism which is not worried about the lifts the firefighting switch weekly should be operational monthly the simulation of the power

00:28:14 monthly the simulation of the power supply

00:28:15 supply six monthly at the fire mains and annually operational tests of the firefighter lifts so there is guarantee that the lift swiss

00:28:23 swiss system has worked thank you now if i can now turn to the second relevant standard which is bs en 81-72 2003

00:28:35 en 81-72 2003 now the 1991 standard was followed and i think superseded by european norm bsen 8172 2003 is that right that's correct and again this has the equally clumsy

00:28:47 and again this has the equally clumsy title of safety rules for the construction and installation of lifts particular applications for passenger and goods passenger lifts firefighters lifts is that right that's correct and uh

00:28:58 correct and uh that was published in july 2003 is that right that's correct now um could we go to that uh standard which is at bsi quadruple zero one seven two five four slash eight

00:29:14 and if we look really in the bottom third of the page at paragraph 3.5 we find here a definition of a firefighter lift is that right that is correct and it's defined as and

00:29:25 that is correct and it's defined as and i quote a lift installed primarily intended for passengers use which has additional protection controls and signals which enable it to be used under the direct control of the

00:29:36 be used under the direct control of the fire service to the lay eye it's slightly different but is it

00:29:41 but is it essentially identical to that in the 1991

00:29:45 1991 standard essentially the same thank you but unlike bs5508591 this standard sets out at clause 5.1 the environmental building requirements

00:29:57 environmental building requirements is that right that's correct and if we can go to page 10

00:30:05 we see those requirements set out there now in respect of clause 5.2 we see fundamental firefighters lift requirements are listed

00:30:17 we can see them set out there firemen firefighters lift shall serve every floor the building size etc can you give us a brief explanation

00:30:28 explanation of the uh fundamental requirements of a firefighting left under this standard the fundamentals are there is a minimum size

00:30:37 size which is 1100 wide by 1400 deep with the rated load of 630 kilos the the clear entrance width shall be 800 millimeters

00:30:50 800 millimeters the the main one is the firefighter's lift shall reach the first floor within 60 seconds and if we turn over the page to 5.3 we see that there are also water

00:31:01 we see that there are also water protection requirements set out there is that right that's correct and if we then look at 5.4 that concerns the requirement for a trapdoor which has been the subject of

00:31:13 trapdoor which has been the subject of some discussion over the past week again can you help us understand why is there a requirement for a trapdoor

00:31:22 the trap door is to essentially to release a trapped firefighter who in the course of fighting the fire may friend for many reasons

00:31:33 may friend for many reasons may get trapped and lift so the idea is for the firefighter to be able to escape from a traps lift now if we can turn over the page to page 12 and look at clause 5.7

00:31:49 we see that that concerns the fire protection of the lift machine compartment and associated equipment that's great next below that clause 0.58 it's the requirement of the firefighting

00:32:00 it's the requirement of the firefighting lift control systems they're set out there and again can you give us a layman's summary of the essence of those requirements

00:32:12 the requirements are so the firefighters have a standardization of where the when they go into a building they know where the fire service access level will be and where the switch will be thank you

00:32:24 and where the switch will be thank you um if we can go to page 15 now and clause 5.9

00:32:31 that is the requirement for primary and secondary power supplies and again you've explained that and that purpose

00:32:38 purpose and if we stay on this page we go down to the bottom to clause 5.12 and we see there the requirement for a fire service communications system and can you help us briefly what's the

00:32:49 and can you help us briefly what's the purpose of that system the system is to allow the firefighters to communicate with two-way speech to their

00:33:01 with two-way speech to their operatives inside the lifts thank you is it right to say that there are no express requirements as to maintenance in this standard there's no that's

00:33:12 in this standard there's no that's correct

00:33:14 correct um can i turn to the third and final standard that i'd like to discuss with you in relation to project one and that's bs5508-5 2004 which is entitled five precautions

00:33:26 2004 which is entitled five precautions in the design construction and use of buildings access and facilities for firefighting was that published in november 2014 it was

00:33:35 was and it replaced uh the 1991 version the standard is that right that's correct and it incorporated bsen 8172 2003. that's correct thank you now can you

00:33:47 that's correct thank you now can you just help me i'm curious looking at what's on the screen at the moment i see in the last line when the standard is dealing with vandal-prone areas there's a reference to

00:33:58 there's a reference to a european norm which is prefixed by the letters

00:34:01 letters pr what does that indicate it means it's out for discussion it's provisional yes yes thank you very much

00:34:08 much it hasn't got any standing in a mandatory law right thank you now looking at the 2004 standard if we can go to bsi

00:34:19 can go to bsi quadruple zero one seven two three four slash

00:34:23 slash six and clause three point twelve

00:34:30 and here we have the third iteration of a definition of a firefighting lift to the lay eye it seems broadly the same as its two predecessors is that a fair

00:34:42 predecessors is that a fair comment to make that is a fairly comment to make and it defined firefighting lifters one with lif with fire protection measures including controls that enable it to be used under the direct control of the fire service

00:34:53 fire service in fighting a fire is that right that's correct now if we can turn within this standard but to page 27 and look at clause 7.2.4

00:35:09 and we see there in the second paragraph under the subheading this and i quote firefighting lift installations should conform to bs

00:35:20 installations should conform to bs en 8172 and to bs en 81-1 or bs en 81-2 as appropriate for the particular type of lift

00:35:32 particular type of lift stopping there can you briefly explain to us the

00:35:35 to us the relevance and significance of bsen 81-1 and 81-2

00:35:44 bse-91-1 relates to lifts which are classified as traction lifts and bsen 81.2 relates to this which are hydraulic thank you

00:35:55 thank you and if we can now go to stay on page 27 and look at clause 7.2.7 actually may have to go over the page

00:36:14 thank you now this section concerns firefighting lift cars as we can see from the subtitle and uh the key requirement seems to be that set out in the first sentence which is that the construction design of

00:36:26 which is that the construction design of firefighting lift cars together with the installation of firefighting lifts should conform to bsen 81-72 um it also notes that firefighting lifts

00:36:37 um it also notes that firefighting lifts should be conspicuously marked is that a fair summary of the relevant aspects of that requirement that's a fair assessment can we now go to page 31 and clause

00:36:49 can we now go to page 31 and clause 7.2.8

00:36:50 7.2.8 which we're on thank you this concerns water protection and in essence it provides that as required by bsen 81-72 2003 water protection should be

00:37:02 81-72 2003 water protection should be provided

00:37:03 provided is that a fair summary of what we need to know from this section that's a very

00:37:10 staying on page 31 can we look at clause 7.2.9

00:37:14 7.2.9 which concerns lift machinery spaces um it also refers to bs en 8172 2003

00:37:24 8172 2003 is there anything that you need to highlight to the panel arising from this

00:37:34 standard what we need to what is what this is highlighting is that we don't the standard doesn't want

00:37:43 want hot gases and smoke entering the lift shaft and going into the lift motor room which will affect the lift controllers thank you can we turn over to page 32

00:37:54 thank you can we turn over to page 32 and clause 8

00:37:57 and this concerns firefighting lift control systems can you broadly explain to us or summarize the requirements of this particular

00:38:08 requirements of this particular element of the standard

00:38:12 this is trying to codify so there's a standard around europe of how the lift control system shall work on the fire fire fighting control system

00:38:24 on the fire fire fighting control system so

00:38:24 so it goes down to basic details so every lift that goes into europe or under the n81 in the en code will have the same fire control system

00:38:36 system thank you and if we could turn over the page to page 33 and clause 8.3

00:38:44 you're going to see that 8.3 concerns changeover from primary to secondary supply

00:38:48 supply after the operation of the firefighting lift switch and that too refers to bsen 8172 2003

00:38:58 anything further to be highlighted from that section the only thing i would highlight is when you change over from a primary to secondary power supply there is a delay of 30 up to 30 seconds

00:39:09 there is a delay of 30 up to 30 seconds while the

00:39:11 while the the 70 power is established it's not direct

00:39:14 direct straight away the emergency lighting will come on in the car because you lost the power

00:39:18 the power but it won't be an automatic seamless changeover thank you if we could turn now to page 41 41

00:39:25 41 41 and clause 14.1

00:39:30 again we see specific provision for primary and secondary power supplies and can you summarize for us the key requirements of this element of the

00:39:40 standard the key the key elements are that the the primary and secondary power supply should be

00:39:47 should be protected against water fire and water damage

00:39:52 thank you um again is it correct that this

00:39:55 this standard does not contain a section on maintenance that's correct do you know why i have got no idea why would you expect the person with

00:40:06 would you expect the person with responsibility for maintenance um to follow the recommendations set out in the 1991 code absent anything else i would respect that as a best practice yes

00:40:17 that as a best practice yes um could we um go back to another diagram from dr lane's phase one report and that can be found at b l a quadruple zero

00:40:26 zero five four eight one forward slash ninety two

00:40:34 i'll just give you a brief opportunity to refresh your memory of that

00:40:51 to refresh your memory of that is that a useful indeed accurate diagrammatic summary of the requirements of a firefighting lift that's a very good summary of a firefighter lift

00:41:02 firefighter lift could we go to bla quadruple zero five four eight one forward slash double one six

00:41:14 now here this is a diagrammatic summary of the differences between a fire lift and a firefighting lift and first of all is a fire lift just an abbreviated another way of referring to a fireman's lift

00:41:25 lift no it's not what's the difference the fire lift

00:41:29 fire lift has got no added features there's no it's not

00:41:32 it's not helping it doesn't help the firefighters fight a fire

00:41:37 and does this set out accurately the principal differences between a fire lift and the firefighting lift in your view

00:41:45 view i believe it does thank you well i'm sorry can we just clarify the previous question your answer to the previous question we've seen references to fireman's lift

00:41:56 to fireman's lift and fire lift are those two things the same

00:42:03 same it depends who who you talk to they're basically

00:42:06 basically they are the same i would say a far left and a fireman's lift are the same that's what i had understood yes they're both distinct from a fire fighting lift yes and a fire fighting

00:42:18 fighting lift yes and a fire fighting lift

00:42:19 lift uh is called that because it's designed to

00:42:23 to be used by firemen in the course of fighting a fire is that right that's correct yes thank you very much i think there's uh some people use the terminology incorrectly fire and fireman's lifts are

00:42:34 incorrectly fire and fireman's lifts are being used quite a lot yes well i think we've known okay i think we've clarified that thank you very much

00:42:39 very much thank you um can we now um turn to relevant standards at the time of project two uh that's so that's the works in 2015 or thereabouts and if we could go back to your main report which is rho

00:42:53 back to your main report which is rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash 82 and paragraph 99.

00:43:02 now you note there that consideration of the requirements of approved document b is outside the scope of your expertise but you note dr lane's phase 1 report which notes that adb

00:43:13 which notes that adb 2013 referred to bsen 81-72 2003 and bs55-88-5 2004 the standards which we've just been

00:43:25 2004 the standards which we've just been discussing is that a first summary that's a fair summary yes by the time of project two so 2015 did the features of a firefighting lift which we've been considering uh still apply or had they materially

00:43:38 uh still apply or had they materially changed

00:43:38 changed they're still applied there was an update to

00:43:42 update to bs en 8172 2003 which was published in april 2015 that was called bs en 8172 2015

00:43:53 that was called bs en 8172 2015 given the timing of the lift works is it reasonable to expect that those involved with project 2 were to have applied the changes in the 2015 standard in my opinion no and why the works on

00:44:07 in my opinion no and why the works on project 2 was a limited limited significance thank you and am i right in understanding that the 2015 version of bsem 8172

00:44:20 the 2015 version of bsem 8172 in annex j repeated the recommendations set out in the 1991 standard that the fire control switch should be typically checked weekly great thank you now

00:44:31 great thank you now can i turn to a separate topic which emerges of evidence relatively recently and you recall that um steven ellis from butler and young provided a second

00:44:43 from butler and young provided a second statement which can be found at but quadruple zero double zero double five four if we go to that briefly in paragraph seven

00:45:09 what he says there is in my experience there were always budgetary considerations should we just get it up then we could follow it yes thank you in my experience there were always budgetary considerations when local authority refurbishments were

00:45:20 when local authority refurbishments were being considered which of course had an influence on the scheme eventually selected and if we go to paragraph 15 which is over the page on page five sorry paragraph 13 over the page on page

00:45:31 sorry paragraph 13 over the page on page five

00:45:33 five he says this in my view to achieve compliance with bs55085 would have added considerable cost and delay to the project even if all elements were feasible and

00:45:45 even if all elements were feasible and mr morehouse comments in similar terms we don't need to go to his statement but for reference it's paragraph 27 which can be found at but quadruple zero double zero five four forward slash nine now

00:45:57 five four forward slash nine now bearing in mind the views of mr ellis and mr morehouse do british standards or or indeed any other guidance documents set out in your reports distinguish

00:46:08 set out in your reports distinguish between

00:46:09 between lift fire safety and compliance in local authority as opposed to privately owned residential buildings no they don't does a lower standard of good industry practice apply to local authority

00:46:20 practice apply to local authority housing compared to privately owned housing no it doesn't in your understanding experience should the same standards apply to all types of high-rise residential building regardless of ownership

00:46:32 building regardless of ownership yes they should thank you now can i turn to the original lift installation

00:46:41 now you explained earlier that you agreed with dr lane's view that cp3 was likely to have been the basis for the design of grenfell tower and therefore grenfell tower should have had a fireman's lift installation when

00:46:52 had a fireman's lift installation when it was built is that a fair summary that's fair summaries

00:46:57 summaries now you go on to say in your report and the reference is rho quadruple 0 0 3 8 5 but there is limited indeed very limited

00:47:08 limited information about the original lift installation is that right that's correct

00:47:12 correct and so you weren't able to draw any conclusions about whether the original lift installation complied with the relevant standards is that a fair summary

00:47:19 summary of summary but you can say that a fireman's control switch was installed yes

00:47:28 again hopefully this is a fair way of summarizing your view but it appears that the fireman's lift was installed originated tower but ultimately there is so little evidence that you cannot give the inquiry

00:47:39 inquiry an informed view as the compliance with the original lifts with contemporaneous standards that's correct

00:47:48 now the next section of your report which i'd like to ask you questions about is the requirement for a firefighting lift and that was set out at section eight of your main report

00:47:59 your main report and that starts at rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash one 104.

00:48:10 now this deals with the particular question of whether the requirement for firefighting lifts apply to only new lifts

00:48:16 lifts or whether it also applied to so-called modernized lifts and you consider whether at the time a project won the lift should have been upgraded to firefighting lifts is that a useful summary of the focus of

00:48:27 is that a useful summary of the focus of this section of your report that's a useful focus thank you

00:48:33 cutting to the chase what is your view should the lifts have been upgraded to a firefighting lift as part of project one yes i should have now i'd like to explore the reasons for

00:48:46 now i'd like to explore the reasons for you coming to that conclusion and first of all um i'd like to look at the standards as they apply to new buildings now if grenfell tower had been built in 2005 it was a new building

00:48:57 2005 it was a new building would it have been designed with a firefighting lift yes it would have now one phrase which has cropped up during evidence over the past week is that of reasonable practicability

00:49:08 practicability now what is your understanding of the meaning of that phrase

00:49:15 it means in my opinion that it was it practically

00:49:23 um is it a balance between the series of risk on one hand and the difficulty and cost of eliminating or mitigating the risk on the other

00:49:33 the other it might be a difficulty the cost shouldn't

00:49:36 shouldn't come into this is the phrase reasonable practicability defined at all in the relevant standards no it's not now as discussed there is a

00:49:47 no it's not now as discussed there is a range of different features which make up a firefighting lift um can you separate those sorry can you separate out those features from each i only install some but not all and yet

00:49:58 i only install some but not all and yet still

00:49:59 still classified properly as a firefighting lift

00:50:03 lift i think the lift has to comply fully or not at all

00:50:09 now can we look at the rules insofar as they apply to modernize lifts and at the time of project one was there any standard or guidance which stated expressly

00:50:21 stated expressly whether existing lifts should be modernized up to modern firefighting lyft

00:50:25 lyft standard in my opinion there wasn't at that time

00:50:31 now if we can look at bs 5655-11 1989 and you refer to that at paragraph 207 of your report and if we go to rho quadruple zero

00:50:44 and if we go to rho quadruple zero treble zero three forward slash one zero nine

00:50:50 now you'll see at paragraph 208 roughly midway down that page you note that bs double sorry bs 565-11

00:51:01 you note that bs double sorry bs 565-11 does not concern firefighting lift features

00:51:04 features but then you go on to say paragraph 209 this

00:51:08 this section 2.4.1 of the standard states that

00:51:12 that i quote where the controller of a fireman's lift as defined in bs 5655 part 6 is changed the control system should comply with bs5508

00:51:24 comply with bs5508 part 5. this does not however imply compliance with all other requirements in that standard for a firefighting lift especially with regard to the structural enclosure can you help

00:51:36 to the structural enclosure can you help us

00:51:36 us what is the significance of that passage

00:51:41 in my opinion the significant passage is that

00:51:45 that the control system for the firefighting lift

00:51:48 lift has got to comply with double five double eight part five it's an upgrade but it doesn't have to comply

00:51:56 comply with or implicate the other other parts of the standard especially the structure confining ourselves only to the standards at this stage

00:52:07 stage and not what else might have been said by tmo or

00:52:10 by tmo or anyone else at the time of project one should butler and young have considered whether the existing fireman's lifts at the tower

00:52:19 the tower could be modernized to meet modern firefighting lift standards in my opinion yes so even if the lift works were characterized as a lift modernization and not the installation of new lifts do

00:52:30 and not the installation of new lifts do you think the lifts should have been upgraded to firefighting lifts subject to the proviso of reasonable practicability i do can you explain why you add the

00:52:41 i do can you explain why you add the qualification only in so far as it was reasonably practical why wasn't compliance with all requirements of the standard necessary

00:52:50 necessary or practicable well we didn't know i don't know at that time what the structural constraints of the building were thank you now in his second witness statement mr

00:53:01 now in his second witness statement mr morehouse of butlin young that states a paragraph eight which can be found we don't need to go to it but the reference is b ut quadruple zero double zero five four four four he says

00:53:12 double zero five four four four he says this

00:53:13 this modernizations were generally expected to incorporate not only the current lift standards but also the standards laid down by that local authority what's your assessment of that statement

00:53:26 what's your assessment of that statement my assessment of that standard is a statement is that the overriding standard is the british standard

00:53:33 standard the the local authority standard is not recognized and have you ever come across an organization such as a local authority for example having its own lift standards which are separate and distinct to british or

00:53:45 separate and distinct to british or european standards no

00:53:51 where are european or british standards set a higher standard than that imposed under a local authority bespoke one which standard would take precedence the european standard

00:54:02 european standard thank you well can we just explore that a little bit uh if the local authority had some standards of its own they would be likely to become part of

00:54:15 they would be likely to become part of the

00:54:16 the contract with the lift refurbishment company wouldn't they i would and uh are you aware of any anything which prevents a local authority from

00:54:29 prevents a local authority from requiring compliance with its own standards

00:54:33 standards uh i think we're getting confused slightly

00:54:36 slightly is the local authority standard may have a specification yes and their specification will refer to standards

00:54:46 and there is and there is on a new lift there

00:54:50 there you can get a derogation from bsi if if there is a part of equipment that doesn't comply with the standard yes but i mean

00:55:02 standard yes but i mean unless there is legislation which makes certain

00:55:06 certain equipment or standards mandatory

00:55:10 it's a case of the customer calling the shots isn't it um

00:55:17 i wouldn't say so i'd say that the the the standard for the lifts are a safety standard and they should pay

00:55:24 pay the overriding standard well i see the force of that observation but if the customer says i don't want that if the customer says it doesn't want it

00:55:35 it doesn't want it i would expect a professional ornamentation to have that in writing to say why they don't want it and justification and also probably get an insurance evaluation why they didn't why they're

00:55:46 evaluation why they didn't why they're not accepting that rule right i mean i've raised the question i mean maybe we're going to come back to this i'm not sure but the escape hatch has been the subject of a certain amount of evidence yeah and uh well maybe we're coming to

00:55:58 yeah and uh well maybe we're coming to that are we mister we may touch on it right well i'll perhaps i'll not trespass on mr canoe's line of questioning just yet all right yes thank you thank you um

00:56:09 all right yes thank you thank you um we are going to move on to a new topic now and that's a new and the concept of new lifts and the key standard which you refer to in your report dealing with this question is bs

00:56:21 this question is bs 5655-11 2005 lifts and service lifts code of practice for the undertaking modifications to existing electric lifts and if we can turn to it which is at bsi

00:56:32 turn to it which is at bsi quadruple 0-1724 and page 7 in particular

00:56:40 and in your report you noted section 1 scope which says in the second paragraph that that part of bs bs 5655

00:56:51 that that part of bs bs 5655 does not cover any of the following types of lift a new lifts and a reference is made to note

00:56:59 note 2. note 2 is immediately below and says this

00:57:03 this where a lift falls into one of the following categories is deemed to be a new lift as defined in the lifts regulations 1997 and this part of bs 5655 is not

00:57:14 and this part of bs 5655 is not applicable and the other items where

00:57:21 this does not this part of the section does not apply as well the lift is completely replaced and only retains the guide rails is that right that's correct now can you explain what this standard note 2 in particular tells us about the

00:57:32 note 2 in particular tells us about the definition of a new lift

00:57:38 the new lift is in my opinion a lift in a lift shaft to lift well which is totally new all new all new equipment 100 new

00:57:49 all new all new equipment 100 new equipment

00:57:52 and so a new lift is a new lift if it's on one either completely replaced yes or if only the guide rails are retained and everything else is replaced

00:58:03 and everything else is replaced that's correct that's a bit crude but is it enough for present purposes for prison purpose that's correct now in your report you go on to investigate the extent of what was and what wasn't replaced during the course of project

00:58:14 replaced during the course of project one

00:58:14 one and if we go to your report which is at rho quadruple zero treble zero three forward slash one one two and paragraph two two six

00:58:28 and you there we go and uh you start by considering considering the butter and young specification which is set out there which identifies

00:58:39 which is set out there which identifies the retained equipment which we've looked at and evidence over the past few days

00:58:42 days if we could go to but quadruple zero double zero double four four slash twelve

00:58:57 which is just the home document which is quoted there it indicates that only the guides a single riser of car guide brackets and the landing back boxes were retained is that right

00:59:08 that right that is correct now the chairman asked the witnesses a number of questions about these items what's the significance first of all of the retention of guides and single riser of car guide brackets

00:59:24 the intention i think was to use the existing car size without without destroying or removing

00:59:35 without without destroying or removing the car guy brackets or relocating them

00:59:40 and the landing back boxes first of all what are those boxes the landing box boxes are the boxes where the push button the landing push button

00:59:49 button is fitted too this may well be um too crude a question but how important are landing back boxes in terms of the apparatus of a lift they're not very important at all

01:00:03 now you say in your report we don't need to go to it but the reference is paragraph

01:00:07 paragraph 236 which is at page 116 of your report that the guides would have had to have been relocated why'd you say that

01:00:16 because the car size was increased and by increasing the car size you had to

01:00:24 to renew the the guide brackets and replace the guides and indeed i think i'm right in saying that the evidence of the butter and young and apex witnesses was that the guide rails were in fact

01:00:36 was that the guide rails were in fact relocated as you anticipated yes now at paragraph 242 of your report again we don't need to go to it but it's a page 117.

01:00:47 117. you list all the equipment which was replaced or likely to have been replaced and that included the complete lift car the counterweight the castling and platform

01:00:57 platform safety gear door operator car doors landing doors landing control system lift pit buffers electrical wiring lift controller and the lift motor

01:01:08 the lift motor gearbox given that all those parts were replaced the guides were relocated in your view were the lifts likely to be new lifts

01:01:20 likely to be new lifts or not in my opinion it should have been a new lift and if they were new lifts does it follow that they ought to have been firefighting lifts correct

01:01:32 would the qualification or the proviso of reasonable practicability have applied in those circumstances

01:01:40 in the only thing that would be reasonably practical would be the structural integrity integrity

01:01:50 if i can just draw the strands of this sorry before before we leave that um

01:01:58 it would require presumably quite a lot of additional equipment or structure wouldn't it because

01:02:07 because if i've understood what i've heard so far reasonably correctly you would need to make provision for water protection and for the removal of water

01:02:18 and for the removal of water from this pit yes right correct and that would require either some form of pumping or drainage or whatever

01:02:27 whatever correct and you would have had to provide

01:02:32 provide a secondary power supply correct um either from a generator or from a separate substation is that the case that's correct yes

01:02:43 the case that's correct yes so that would have required quite considerable new electrical installation yes and that's apart from the famous escape hatch in the roof of the car

01:02:55 hatch in the roof of the car which was not a big item and the uh sorry and the protection of equipment is a minor part it'd be just some covers over the electrical equipment from

01:03:07 over the electrical equipment from stop dripping water coming down yes so the protection of water in the lift shaft

01:03:13 shaft is a minor item well the protection aspect

01:03:16 aspect i can see is a minor item the removal aspect

01:03:19 aspect might or might not be is that right that's correct all right and is it your view that all that additional equipment should have been provided i think

01:03:30 should have been provided i think someone should have gone through the costing analysis to see if it was reasonably practical well that was going to be my next question because

01:03:41 in your view might there come a point of which the cost of product providing that additional equipment was too great to make it justifiable i can't answer that question because i i

01:03:53 i can't answer that question because i i i don't know what the budget was no no you can't answer the question in relation to this list but in principle is it your view that there might come a point at which the cost would be prohibitive

01:04:05 the cost would be prohibitive there could be a it could be somewhere down the line yes and how does that fit with the requirement of the uh the guides that

01:04:17 uh the guides that should be treated as a new lift with all this extra equipment i'm not sure i understand that question sorry sir well the guidance which we've been looking at suggests that

01:04:29 looking at suggests that because only the guide rails were retained

01:04:32 retained and the back boxes yes it should be regarded as a new lift and therefore should be a firefighting lift but i think what you're now telling us is that there might be a point at which that

01:04:44 there might be a point at which that wouldn't really be economically sensible hypothetically yes so you just disregard that bit of the guidance i take it at that point if it's a new lift you could go to the notified body

01:04:56 notified body the because the new lift has to get a ce mark and get a derogation from that part of the the code

01:05:03 code right there is a possibility that could happen

01:05:06 happen all right but safety is the number one part of the code cost doesn't come into the site into the code yeah all right so thank you very much that's helpful

01:05:17 that's helpful yes uh so you've you've um stolen my thunder uh again but i think it's your prerogative though sir um mr um how can just drawing out one point

01:05:28 mr um how can just drawing out one point there rising from your answers to the chairman's questioning cost does play a role in assessment of reasonable practicability it would appear

01:05:36 appear would you accept that i would yes

01:05:42 now can i turn to the separate topic of butler and young's involvement in project one now they were only involved in project one

01:05:52 one and if we can go to tmo double zero eight five three seven eight three four slash two

01:06:02 hopefully we come to the project brief

01:06:06 and am i right in thinking this was produced by the tmo for the lift consultants who were butter and young i believe it was and as we see there it's dated august 2002 and if we could stay

01:06:17 2002 and if we could stay in this document but go to page 15 and a particular paragraph 4.10

01:06:25 you'll see their headed standards and if i could ask you to refresh your memory of little c

01:06:41 yes i've refreshed it um is it your view that the tmo asked butter and young to consider the issue of firefighting lift requirements based on what is said there it is

01:06:53 now stephen ellis from butler and young described in his statement we don't need to go to it but the reference is but quadruple zero double zero four zero forward slash one described butter and young's first duty

01:07:05 described butter and young's first duty as quotes

01:07:07 as quotes discussion of the scope of the proposed works

01:07:10 works in your view what should this discussion have included given what is required there in clause 4.10 the discussion should have complied with should have at least

01:07:22 should have at least highlighted the compliance within 81.1 the regulation lift regulations and the firefighting requirements and evacuation requirements at least

01:07:33 requirements at least they should have highlighted it and discussed it administered it now on that point after you produce both of your

01:07:40 of your reports mr moorhouse from butler and young produced a second statement and in that second statement and the reference is but quadruple zero double zero five four

01:07:51 quadruple zero double zero five four forward slash seven and if we go to that so that's but quadruple zero double zero five four

01:08:00 forward slash seven and looking at paragraphs 21 and 22 i paraphrase but in paragraphs in those paragraphs there he says that on the 8th of may 2003 he had an

01:08:11 on the 8th of may 2003 he had an unminuted meeting with john rogers and david steppel david steffel being the principal lift engineer at tmo and he says this i do recall at this meeting that i did raise the issue of

01:08:22 meeting that i did raise the issue of firefighting lifts however i was instructed by david steppel and john rogers to proceed on the basis that fireman's lifts were required consistent with section 10 of appendix a

01:08:33 consistent with section 10 of appendix a and that consideration of firefighting lifts was not to be part of the feasibility study and no reference was required in the study i do not recollect marking a note of this instruction or confirming it in writing to kctmo

01:08:46 or confirming it in writing to kctmo however

01:08:47 however as the approved contents of the feasibility study shows this was the basis upon which i proceeded

01:08:53 proceeded in your view was this verbal instruction from the tmo consistent with its written instruction the client brief in particular little c clause 4.10

01:09:06 in particular little c clause 4.10 i was expected after that discussion to have

01:09:09 have a written instruction from tmo

01:09:14 now let's um if we can go to rho i'm sorry to explain to you again mr

01:09:21 mr um before we leave this i noticed on the previous

01:09:25 previous in um on the previous document which i think was the uh was the brief of reference to firefighting and evacuation lifts is there a distinction between them

01:09:37 between them there's a slight difference yes the evacuation has some more communications it's it's it's a separate a separate control system to evacuate people that may have got

01:09:49 to evacuate people that may have got injured

01:09:51 injured right so there's otherwise it's in the same physical structure oh yes yes definitely thank you very much yes

01:09:59 much yes thanks sir um if we can go just following on the the instruction that mr morehouse referred to coming from mr stapler mr rogers in may 2003

01:10:10 from mr stapler mr rogers in may 2003 could we go to rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash one four two

01:10:22 and if we could look at paragraph three two six

01:10:25 two six point two of your report your conclusion in relation to butter and young was that and i quote the butter and young april 2004 specification was deficient in a

01:10:38 2004 specification was deficient in a number of respects overall it did not specify the features of a firefighting lift which it should have done

01:10:44 have done unless it was not reasonably practicable to incorporate such features i have seen no witness evidence or documents which suggest that any such deliberation or discussion took place now given

01:10:56 or discussion took place now given the evidence of mr ellis and mr morehouse last week named it the tmo expressly instructed butler and young not to consider firefighting lifts if

01:11:08 not to consider firefighting lifts if that

01:11:09 that happened would that alter the opinion that is set out in paragraph 326.2

01:11:20 no i don't think she would so eve your view remains that even if the tmo had instructed but young expressly not to install a firefighting lift

01:11:33 not to install a firefighting lift that does not alter your opinion as to their conduct in this matter no it doesn't and can you help us understand why i think the safety

01:11:45 understand why i think the safety of the the firefighters and the safety standard

01:11:48 standard takes precedent from the client's instruction it's a safety it's a safety feature to help firefighters fight a fire in a high-rise building would you have expected

01:11:59 expected mr morehouse to have made some form of record

01:12:02 record of the express instruction from the tmo as it conflicted with what appears to be the project brief requirements i would have expected that yes

01:12:11 that yes would you have expected the feasibility study to reflect or record the instruction as well i would have expected that yes and that's because it was inconsistent with the apparent intent and requirements

01:12:22 requirements of the project brief i was expecting it even if it was just a file note in a project notebook thank you could we now consider the feasibility study that was prepared by butler and young

01:12:33 butler and young and that but that report can be found at but quadruple zero trouble zero two and was prepared in july 2003 by butler and young

01:12:49 the key issue here is did the report address

01:12:52 address the issue of firefighting lift requirements my question to you is did it

01:13:00 i i don't think it did should it have done it should have done yes and for the reasons you've just given

01:13:08 given correct

01:13:11 and just for the avoidance of doubt does the evidence of mr morehouse and indeed mr ellis that there was an express instruction not to consider firefighting lifts does that

01:13:21 that alter or modify your opinion in any way no it doesn't

01:13:31 now i'm about to turn to a new topic sir i don't know and it's spot on quarter past eleven well that might be a convenient point my name mr can you they would thank you sir

01:13:42 name mr can you they would thank you sir yes uh well mr hurkins we have a short break during the morning and this seems like a good time to take it so we'll stop now we'll resume please at half past eleven okay and i must ask you please not to

01:13:55 okay and i must ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it while you're out of the room okay if you go with the action now we'll see you again caught for now okay thank you very much thank you very much

01:14:20 thank you mr how fast

01:31:37 thank you would you ask mr harkins to come back in please

01:31:53 all right mr harkins ready to carry on i'm ready yes thank you very much yes mr kennedy thanks sir mr hawkins um just before we go on to um some further evidence of the butler and young witnesses um could i ask you

01:32:04 and young witnesses um could i ask you to turn to rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash one two two and paragraph two six two and this is where

01:32:20 you're discussing the feasibility um studying you say overall i would have expected

01:32:25 expected to see in the report an option to bring the lifts up to full firefighting standard

01:32:28 standard alongside other options and the benefits disadvantages of each including considerations such as cost length of program of works needed to count residents etc and if we turn over the page to paragraph 263 i would have expected

01:32:41 paragraph 263 i would have expected button young to advise us the best option

01:32:43 option but ultimately the final decision would have been for tmo does that remain your view it still remains my view yes and so if tmo had said don't

01:32:54 and so if tmo had said don't in install firefighting lifts ultimately being uh butter and young could do no more that's correct

01:33:03 now can i turn to further evidence of the butler and young witnesses and the mr ellis at paragraph capital a 12 point little a of his witness statement and that can be

01:33:16 of his witness statement and that can be found at but quadruple zero double zero four zero forward slash four said that button young so i'll just let that come up there we go

01:33:27 there we go a12a roughly just above halfway point on that page

01:33:31 that page said button and young did not consider the two refurbished lifts as new lifts significant equipment was retained mr morehouse

01:33:39 morehouse says something similar we don't need to go to it but the reference is at but quadruple zero double zero two three four

01:33:48 four five if we can go to the second statement of mr ellis which is a b

01:33:54 is a b u t quadruple zero double zero double five forward slash five and paragraph 14 which is just below

01:34:06 and paragraph 14 which is just below halfway

01:34:07 halfway they said butter and young considered that the two passenger lifts at grenfell tower

01:34:12 tower comprise the refurbishment because significant equipment was retained this retained equipment included guide rails guide bracketry counterweight and landing back boxes

01:34:23 counterweight and landing back boxes from recollection the term refurbishment was employed on every document throughout the project now just bearing in mind i think there was some doubt in mr ellis's mind whether the counterweight was retained or not mr

01:34:33 or not mr morehouse thought it been replaced with that caveat what was your view on the evidence of butler and young as to whether the lifts were new or

01:34:44 refurbished in my opinion there wasn't there wasn't significant equipment retained you know the only retaining equipment was the guide rails but in in a different location

01:34:57 but in in a different location in from my opinion the gravel bracketry the counterweight were were renewed and the only boxes were retained thank you if we can go to um steve

01:35:08 thank you if we can go to um steve ellis's statement uh but quadruple zero double zero four zero forward slash four and paragraph capital a twelve point

01:35:19 and paragraph capital a twelve point little c

01:35:23 um he says my understanding is that it was considered at the time that due to structural environmental constraints complete compliance with bs5508

01:35:31 bs5508 would only be fully achieved by the installation of completely new lifts and new buildings i believe these matters were discussed and agreed with kctm at an early stage mr morehouse expressed a similar view in

01:35:44 mr morehouse expressed a similar view in his statement and if we go to but quadruple zero double zero two three four six

01:35:59 and paragraph a 12 point little c he said this i do not recall full compliance with bs5508 being discussed i assume as this could only be achieved

01:36:10 i assume as this could only be achieved with completely new lifts and new buildings

01:36:13 buildings not those with ex not those existing with structural and other constraints what's your assessment of the evidence on that particular point as given by mr alice and mr morehouse

01:36:25 alice and mr morehouse i don't believe that full compliance means that you have to have a new lift in new buildings

01:36:34 and the the the structure and other constraints should have been considered

01:36:42 now bearing in mind that can we now turn to the specification and if we could turn to paragraph 271 of your report which can be found rho quadruple zero

01:36:53 which can be found rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash one two four

01:36:59 and then we see it paragraph 271 onwards you deal with the specification um can we turn to the specification itself which is at but quadruple zero double zero double four

01:37:16 and if we go to page sixty six zero

01:37:22 which is the fireman's control what is your view as the type of switch which was provided for in the specification it appears to require an old style fireman's control

01:37:34 require an old style fireman's control switch

01:37:35 switch as opposed to a modern fire control switch is that a fair assessment that's a fair assessment yes it is can you help us what is the difference between a switch operable with a drop key

01:37:45 key rather than an emergency unlocking triangle it's exactly the same key oh sorry can we refer to yeah the the drop key was the one that

01:37:56 the the drop key was the one that specified

01:37:57 specified the triangle is the european standard one

01:38:01 one are there any advantages or disadvantages to using one type of switch compared to the other

01:38:07 so an all man's fire control old fireman's control switch as opposed to the modern fire control switch are you talking about the key that operates it

01:38:19 no the type of switch itself there's no difference thank you

01:38:25 you note that the documents indicate that the tmo may have explicitly specified

01:38:30 specified the drop key and if we can go to rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash one three one

01:38:48 you discuss those matters there my question is this um if the tmo had specified the old-fashioned if i can put it that way drop key as opposed to the european

01:39:00 way drop key as opposed to the european triangular key uh what would you have expected butler and young to advise the tmo in those circumstances i'd be excited about young to advise tmo that the key that they specified

01:39:13 that the key that they specified wasn't compliant with the requirement for a new lift or or a euro key on the basis of your review of the evidence can you say whether that advice was given or not

01:39:25 given or not i cannot say i haven't seen any evidence to say one way or the other now in evidence both in their statements and in oral evidence um both uh mr ellis and mr morehouse and indeed

01:39:35 indeed mr clan yesterday said that they all considered the triangular euro key was too available and vulnerable to use by unauthorized persons um what's your assessment of that evidence i don't accept that

01:39:50 of that evidence i don't accept that it's a the euro key has been used worldwide well european-wide for many years there's thousands

01:39:57 thousands probably tens of thousands of lifts with that that type of key and it's a it's a safer key because it's got specific dimensions and is it fair to summarize your

01:40:09 and is it fair to summarize your evidence this way that because the euro key was the key that was specified that's the one that should have been used it is yes were you aware well wouldn't that depend

01:40:20 were you aware well wouldn't that depend on what the client wanted i mean the evidence that we have is that the client did not want the euro key

01:40:31 key for reasons good or bad which at least it thought were good is that just not the fact of life then that's what they wanted and they were entitled

01:40:42 what they wanted and they were entitled to have it i agree it's a fact of life but i would have thought that butler young would have

01:40:48 have advised that it wasn't to the europeans code

01:40:53 code and the european code is about in my opinion is a much safer key than the express drop key all right thank you now i think we all all of us on the panel

01:41:05 i think we all all of us on the panel have a

01:41:06 have a reasonable understanding of the dropkey switch and box because you very helpfully gave us a photograph of it in your supplemental report but i'm not sure we've seen any

01:41:17 but i'm not sure we've seen any comparable photographs of the euro key and box do you know where we might find some yes it's in one of the in bs

01:41:30 i'll try and get the reference i think it is it's in it's in it's in ps81 uh the latest version and there's a right i'm sure there's an appendix at the back

01:41:39 the back which gives you the dimensions of it then in that case we'll well i'd really find a picture helpful is there a picture in the bs document yes it's a sketch we'll have a look thank you very much

01:41:50 look thank you very much thank you we're trying to get the reference for you um can i now turn to the subject of trapdoors

01:41:58 um the lifts as uh installed did not have a trapdoor as part of project one in your view would it have been reasonably practical

01:42:08 practical to install the trapdoor yes it would and can you give the panel the essential reasoning by which you've come to that view in my evidence i go there's a sketch of

01:42:20 in my evidence i go there's a sketch of a lift car and it shows you in highlighted in red where the location would be so physically there is a location which could be a trapdoor

01:42:31 trapdoor could be fitted and the clear evidence that came from the butler and young indeed apex witnesses was that trapdoors posed a security risk and that unauthorized persons

01:42:43 and that unauthorized persons could gain access to the lift shaft and thereby causing a danger to themselves and others in your view is that a significant factor mitigating against the installation of a trapdoor i

01:42:55 against the installation of a trapdoor i don't this is a significant factor um why not because we're talking about lives of firefighters and and the security of the building

01:43:06 and and the security of the building you know to get to get into the building you'd have to go through an access an access door

01:43:15 thank you and water protection um would it have been reasonably practical to have installed water protection measures it'd be really easy to put water protection on the lift car and can you just give

01:43:27 on the lift car and can you just give the panel an idea of how easy it would have been

01:43:30 have been so they can understand your reasoning it would be

01:43:34 would be in layman's terms a a tray that fitted over the front of the lift car where the door operator electrical equipment is to deflect water that may be dripping down the lift shaft

01:43:46 down the lift shaft thank you um would it have been reasonably practical to install the second

01:43:50 second secondary power supply now that the chairman's asked you a question on this and the first session this morning do you have enough information upon which to come to a view on that subject i've got enough information on that and

01:44:01 i've got enough information on that and so you can't express a firm view either way my view of looking at the drawings would be there would be enough space in the lift shaft to put to run the cables but i'm not sure i'm

01:44:13 to run the cables but i'm not sure i'm not

01:44:13 not the electric engineer so i wouldn't know whether the rest of a generator or a secondary power supply

01:44:21 would it have been reasonably practical to install the fire service communications system yes it would and can you explain to the panel why

01:44:28 panel why it's a matter it's just a an intercom system which goes from the fire service access level to the lift car to the lift motor room so the person in charge can talk to the fire brigade

01:44:41 in charge can talk to the fire brigade personnel in the lift and in the lift mode room were you able to establish whether the fire resistance or what the fire resistance uh capacity was of the landing doors

01:44:53 uh capacity was of the landing doors one of the one of the test certificates from apex said that it was a two-hour fire certificate and one said that one of the testificates wasn't completed so we haven't seen any

01:45:04 so we haven't seen any evidence to say they were fire rated

01:45:09 can i now turn to the separate topic and that's the involvement of apex and they were involved in both projects one and two is that right that's correct and in relation to project one they were the lift

01:45:20 project one they were the lift contractors is that right that's correct um typically what's the division of responsibility between uh the lift contractor and the lift consultant they'll be in communication with them

01:45:32 they'll be in communication with them throughout the project from the the start of the project right through to the end including agreeing drawings finishes testing commissioning project project management

01:45:46 and who suppose who did what can you help the panel just have clear understanding of that the lift contractor would be employed to

01:45:58 lift contractor would be employed to complete the lift to the specification requirements that would include ordering materials delivery to site installation of materials testing and commissioning and final hand

01:46:10 testing and commissioning and final hand over and

01:46:11 over and also hand him probably to the lift consultant the rnm manual

01:46:20 now um if the mr stepper of the tmo gave the instruction to butter and young that firefighting lifts would not be installed

01:46:33 what duties did apex have so apex have in relation to ensuring that the specification was compliant with relevant standards were they entitled to assume the spec

01:46:45 were they entitled to assume the spec is the spec and not say anything more or would you have expected them to have done more

01:46:50 done more i've expected apex to be in contact with butler and young to draw them out any conclusions or differences between the specification

01:47:02 differences between the specification and

01:47:02 and the current codes

01:47:06 now um if we can go to your main report which is rho quadruple zero treble zero three one five

01:47:14 five two and paragraph three six one point

01:47:20 one

01:47:24 if i just let you familiarize yourself with that

01:47:44 now the apex witnesses each gave evidence that an all or nothing approach was adopted to upgrades to fire fighting lifts either it had all the features of firefighting lifts or none the justification given for this

01:47:58 or none the justification given for this practice was that having only some firefighting features might cause confusion to firefighters when they tended to fight a fire

01:48:05 fire does that evidence uh change your views as to whether it was appropriate for apex to have highlighted the issue of upgrading to a firefighting lift to butler and young

01:48:16 butler and young in my opinion professionally apex should have

01:48:20 have informed butler and young in writing where

01:48:23 where the specification or lifts they were going to install didn't comply

01:48:29 and looking at what you set out in paragraph 361.1 you say that apex did not quote act according to good industry practice or as a reasonable lift contractor would

01:48:41 or as a reasonable lift contractor would close quotes can you help the panel what is the basis of your understanding of good industry practice on this particular point

01:48:52 as apex are a member of leah they will be up to date with latest codes and standards and good and good practice therefore they've probably got more of an insight

01:49:04 they've probably got more of an insight into what the codes say and required based on the information they got from leah and i i strongly believe that good industry practice at the time

01:49:15 industry practice at the time would be that the lift contractor would inform

01:49:18 inform their client and maybe their consultant where the lifts don't comply

01:49:26 thank you before we move on to a separate topic so i think i have the reference

01:49:30 reference uh to uh diagram of the euro key oh thank you and if we can go to bsi quadruple zero double zero nine zero forward slash

01:49:43 double zero nine zero forward slash five four

01:49:47 five one i apologize is that it that is it yes

01:50:02 i'm not sure any of the wise on the basis of that well not as wise as i'd like to be that's true for a lot of things of course but um does this operate with a cylindrical key

01:50:15 does this operate with a cylindrical key that you put into a circular aperture yes and it's just what i might call a straight line key is it you just put the key in and

01:50:26 key is it you just put the key in and the

01:50:27 the it engages a spindle triangular spindle at some way into the and usually the key where the circular part is it's spring-loaded so you have to push

01:50:39 it's spring-loaded so you have to push it in

01:50:40 it in right so where it's got the dimension of 6.5

01:50:44 6.5 and 9.5 there's a that's that is where there's a spring loaded right now the reason we were given why it was said that local authorities don't

01:50:55 it was said that local authorities don't like

01:50:56 like this particular key is that it's widely available

01:51:00 available from unauthorized sources if i can put it like that and therefore people can get hold of them and play around with the with the systems do you have any knowledge about that

01:51:13 to my knowledge

01:51:18 they are white they are available and they're valuable from suppliers but if there was a problem with safety and misuse i would have expected british standards european norms to have

01:51:31 british standards european norms to have changed their design to stop stop them being on from being used by unauthorized people as i said earlier there's tens of thousands of these

01:51:41 these you know in operation around europe and the far east right yes well thank you very much uh if we can stay on the generic topic

01:51:54 uh if we can stay on the generic topic of the fire control switch and if we go to

01:51:56 to your report which is rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash one four four

01:52:04 four four and paragraph three three nine

01:52:12 thank you and there you say i've seen evidence that apex's original tender appear to make provision for a code compliance switch

01:52:22 switch now that was later changed um given that it was changed to the express drop key would you have expected apex to raise any concerns

01:52:33 any concerns that the drop key was non-compliant at that stage

01:52:39 if they had an instruction from their client

01:52:42 client to use it right i think they've done as much as they can do and if the tmo decided to proceed themselves that was their prerogative yes uh were you able to

01:52:53 prerogative yes uh were you able to establish who the manufacturer of the fire control switch was no we went

01:53:00 would knowing the identity of the manufacturer alter your view in any way no it wouldn't uh can i now turn to the fire alarm recall matter and if you stay in your report but turn to page 146

01:53:12 stay in your report but turn to page 146 and look at paragraphs 347 onwards now there you explained that a number of emails suggest that an automatic file recalls system was installed as part of project one is

01:53:23 was installed as part of project one is that a fair summary that's that's a fair summary can you explain generally what the f automatic fire alarm recall systems

01:53:34 automatic fire alarm recall systems do when the alarm detects smoke heat the lifts it'll send a signal to the lift controller and lift will turn return

01:53:45 controller and lift will turn return directly to the main the main floor and lock out so no one can use the lifts and how does that differ from a fire control switch

01:53:57 this one is done automatically from a fire alarm so the clue's in the title automatic fire alarm yes thank you now can we turn to project two now apex's responsibilities

01:54:08 apex's responsibilities were to provide four new landing door assemblies over uh walkway plus one and mezzanine floors and to carry out any modifications necessary to suit those new entrances is that a fair summary there's a fair

01:54:19 that a fair summary there's a fair summary yes now at that stage did apex have a duty to flag non-compliance of the lifts with relevant standards i don't believe they should have no and

01:54:30 i don't believe they should have no and why not the work was so limited now a second fire control switch was found on the walkway floor of the tower um after the fire um is it your view

01:54:41 um after the fire um is it your view that that was likely to have been installed

01:54:43 installed at the time of project two um i think it was but i've got no evidence to say it was but my gut feeling is yes it was and

01:54:54 but my gut feeling is yes it was and looking at the surrounding evidence set out in your report um were you able to establish um whether apex had installed that switch on your review

01:55:03 review no it wasn't um have you been able to establish whether apex disconnected that switch

01:55:10 switch no i haven't now a paragraph 151 of his witness statement which can be found at iws quadruple zero one double three five forward slash

01:55:22 one double three five forward slash fifty one

01:55:23 fifty one uh resident shahid ahmed referred to a letter he sent to councillor blakeman in which he suggested that ryden's overuse of the lift during the refurbishment in 2016 was leading to excessive lift breakdowns

01:55:35 was leading to excessive lift breakdowns um is it possible in your view that heavy use of the list before uh the night of the fire could have affected that operability no can you help us as to why you've reached that view

01:55:48 i think from from the documents i've seen the lift was being used for moving small bits small pieces of equipment up and down the project too and then there may have been

01:56:00 project too and then there may have been dirt there would have been builders worked dirt in a in the area and then in a door track so it could rely it could have reliability problems but that

01:56:10 that only be temporary can i now turn to the tmos policy on fire on fire lifts and firefighting lifts

01:56:18 lifts and if we could go back to sections l2 and l1

01:56:22 and l1 of your report which can be found at rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash one six four

01:56:29 four and in particular the definition employed by the tmo firefighting lifts and the substance of their internal policy on lifts now if we can go to paragraph 404

01:56:42 now if we can go to paragraph 404 first of all which is a page 167.

01:56:49 now there you refer to an email sent by janice ray in july 2010 to the lfb which sets out the features of a firefighting lift

01:57:00 the features of a firefighting lift which the tmo lifts did meet and we see the substance of that email is set out over the page on page 168. if that could be expanded

01:57:14 and we see at points two three and four refer to a dedicated power supply the communication system fire control switch and find it 0.5 a stainless steel

01:57:25 switch and find it 0.5 a stainless steel lift car

01:57:27 lift car would you agree there's no reference there to water protection or a trapdoor i agree and just repeating a point you gave earlier evidence but just to

01:57:38 evidence but just to make it clear if a lift doesn't comply with all the features of a firefighting lift

01:57:43 lift it cannot be properly classified as a firefighting lift is that your view that's my view thank you and i'm sorry sorry

01:57:50 sorry would it be right to understand that a dedicated power supply is not the same as a secondary power supply that's great um could we go back uh in your report to

01:58:01 um could we go back uh in your report to paragraph

01:58:02 paragraph 376 which is at page 156

01:58:09 and you consider here the tiemo's policy on firefighting lifts is it right to say that you've seen a number of versions of the relevant policy i have yes um and

01:58:21 the relevant policy i have yes um and all of them refer to the lifts meeting to a lesser or greater extent at some but not

01:58:26 but not all of the criteria of a firefighting lift is that a fair generalization that's a fair generalization yes now you note uh that a version of the policy dating from 2012 states

01:58:38 policy dating from 2012 states not all of the criteria which define a firefighting lift are appropriate to our lifts

01:58:43 lifts specifically for example the requirement to have a trapdoor on the roof the lift car etc could be detrimental to the safety of our lifts now what is your

01:58:55 now what is your opinion on the assertion that the requirement to have a trapdoor on the roof could be detrimental to the lift safety

01:59:08 it wouldn't have a detrimental factor of the

01:59:11 the safety it's not a safety it's not a safety issue but if the concern were on the part of the tmo that the trap door could be used to enable unauthorized individuals

01:59:22 to enable unauthorized individuals access to the lift shaft that an individual safety is not a safety the lift is the safety of the person

01:59:32 now if we look at paragraph three eight one which is at the bottom of page one five nine

01:59:41 um you identify there another version of the policy dated october 2012 um which states this and we see it quoted there as well

01:59:52 quoted there as well where appropriate firefighting lifts probably over the page are provided within tmo residential blocks this is to satisfy the requirements of the building regulations because of the height of the building

02:00:03 because of the height of the building over 18 meters etc when the lifts are installed they are compliant with the relevant standards current at that time similarly when replacement lifts are installed these are compliant with the standards current

02:00:14 standards current at the time of replacement now is it right that you read that suggesting that firefighting lifts are required in buildings

02:00:26 required in buildings over 18 meters in height that's correct

02:00:34 now there are some other iterations of the policy set out in your report but could we look uh now at the 2017 edition and that if we turn to page 163 in your report where

02:00:47 turn to page 163 in your report where this is considered

02:00:53 um is it fair to say that the 2017 version of the policy was broadly the same as those others which we've just discussed they are broadly the same and it contained the same tmo definition of

02:01:05 contained the same tmo definition of firefighting lift which you've criticized in your report and in your oral evidence today

02:01:12 now the 2017 version differs in one respect

02:01:16 respect is it states that lifts being replaced or new lifts being fitted should comply with relevant standards applicable at the time which would be correct um if occurring is that a

02:01:27 is that a is it right to identify that exception yes it is

02:01:31 yes it is now assuming the tma applied its own definition of a firefighting lift what is your assessment of the consequences of their applying a bespoke definition which was

02:01:43 a bespoke definition which was materially inconsistent with relevant

02:01:48 standards i believe that they are they are wrong in getting their own definition fundamentally it's the standard is set it sets out what the st what the

02:02:01 is set it sets out what the st what the requirement for a firefighting lift and that should be adhered to

02:02:07 from the lay perspective it seems as if applying a different definition of a firefighting left to that in relevant standards might cause confusion

02:02:18 relevant standards might cause confusion in the mind of those responsible for health and safety of the lifts or indeed crucially firefighters is that lay view reasonable it is reasonable i think the

02:02:30 reasonable i think the the view would be that the fire service would expect all lifts that firefighter left to have the same control systems they wouldn't know in individual

02:02:41 they wouldn't know in individual buildings they would expect a firefighter to comply with the same standard throughout throughout the area thank you can i now turn to project two itself

02:02:52 itself and just for reference this is considered page 176 onwards of your report

02:02:58 report if i can summarize the scope of project two thus and please shout if i get this wrong but in terms of the lift they're adjusted to open on two new floors the walkway plus one and the mezzanine

02:03:09 the walkway plus one and the mezzanine floor is that right that's correct and the second fire control switch was installed on the walkway floor correct it appears temporarily though i believe so did project 2 in your view

02:03:23 i believe so did project 2 in your view provide the tmo with an opportunity to consider whether any other works ought to be carried out to the left

02:03:30 i'm thinking here of basically enhancing the lifts to firefighting status it it gave tmo the opportunity to consider

02:03:39 consider but i've seen no evidence to say they did consider could i turn to the question and we've discussed touched upon this earlier the automatic fire recall system um now that seems to have been installed

02:03:50 um now that seems to have been installed as part of project one is that of is that right i believe so and you set out in your report and it's paragraph 4139 onwards which can be found at page 177 of your

02:04:02 which can be found at page 177 of your report

02:04:03 report that's rho quadruple zero trouble zero three

02:04:06 three four slash one seven seven and you set out there a number of emails um which tend to suggest that by 2015 the automatic fire alarm recall system had been disconnected

02:04:18 had been disconnected um is that a fair summary of the material which you consider there it is a fair summary yes and that testing carried out after the fire suggested that that system had been disconnected

02:04:29 system had been disconnected again is that a fair summary of the evidence it is a fair summary but the emails indicate that at the time there was a degree of confusion as to whether the system had been disconnected or not again is that a fair

02:04:40 disconnected or not again is that a fair summary it is a fair summary

02:04:44 now in your supplemental report and the reference is rho quadruple zero treble zero five forward slash

02:04:52 slash 36 you refer that your further testing which has been carried out by rena that's

02:04:57 that's rina which confirmed that there was no programmed connection between the lift controller and the smoke extraction system as well again is that a first summary of your conclusions

02:05:09 your conclusions that's a fair summary yes can we now turn to the question of maintenance now we considered what the standards required earlier and specifically the 1991 standard which

02:05:21 and specifically the 1991 standard which state that the fire control switch should be tested weekly uh am i right in understanding that's the relevant requirement that's relevant

02:05:30 relevant now from the evidence that you reviewed for the purposes of your report how often does the switch appear to have been

02:05:36 been inspected or tested in reality there is no evidence saying it has been tested

02:05:43 tested there's no documents at all or weekly at all

02:05:49 all now if we can turn to appendix e e for echo

02:05:53 echo of the 2012 lift safety policy that can be found at tmo double zero eight four nine double three zero

02:06:01 zero forward slash three zero

02:06:08 now if we look at section two uh which is headed checks by staff tier most senior lift engineer that suggests that the switch should have been checked every month by the tmo lift engineer

02:06:21 every month by the tmo lift engineer what evidence have you seen that that obligation was discharged i've seen no evidence through on that

02:06:33 what level of competence was required in order to test the switch could a properly trained caretaker employed by the tmo have carried out that function

02:06:48 i believe it could have if he had gone through the necessary training and safety procedures what was expected so you didn't need to be a lift technician or engineer in order to carry out the testing of the switch i would quit an authorized person could

02:07:00 i would quit an authorized person could do it

02:07:02 do it now um we don't need to go to it but at paragraph 463 of your report and the reference is rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward one eight one you note

02:07:13 three forward one eight one you note that annual operational testing of the fire fighting lift controls in accordance with section c one of the 1991 standard was not carried out

02:07:24 out can you explain first of all what that testing is it's the it's a testing we mentioned earlier that once a year you make sure that the

02:07:34 that the control works the the secondary power supply works and it com complies with all the oil requirements this is just an annual it's could probably call but it's quite an mot for the fire

02:07:46 but it's quite an mot for the fire control for the fire control switch but that only applies if the lift is a firefighting leak that's yes and so if they weren't the obligation doesn't engage is that a fair summary

02:07:57 doesn't engage is that a fair summary that's correct um now can i turn to a separate topic which is the involvement of p-d-e-r-s now i understand there are various pronunciations of that but it's an acronym

02:08:08 an acronym um i shall describe them as pders is it right that they were the lift maintenance contractor from the 3rd of february 2014 onwards correct thank you now can i turn to the

02:08:21 thank you now can i turn to the maintenance of the fire control switch again um first of all can you help us what was mr wallace's one of the engineers maintenance engineers what was his methodology of testing

02:08:34 i don't know to be quite honest well he's told this isn't he yeah he has well it's just for context here but if you accept the evidence of mr

02:08:46 you accept the evidence of mr if mr wallace's evidence is accepted on this

02:08:50 this um mr woods did say he tested the the fire control switch yes what's your view of the adequacy of what he did um there's no documentation to say he

02:09:01 um there's no documentation to say he did it it's just a verbal and his witness statement just says he tested it

02:09:06 tested it now um could we go to well to be fair to wallace i thought we saw some charts in which

02:09:13 in which the testing yes if i can just go to some of the

02:09:16 of the maybe well be relevant to this now looking at this topic of recording maintenance checks um have you reviewed the lift maintenance log books which contained a maintenance schedule grid

02:09:27 maintenance schedule grid yes now can we go to met trouble zero three nine eight five seven forward slash four and this is the log book for lift h090

02:09:44 now looking at that maintenance schedule does that alter your view or your criticisms of mr wallace's record keeping of

02:09:55 of mr wallace's record keeping of maintenance checks

02:09:59 no he is doing the check with an annual maintenance schedule and there's nothing on that checklist to say

02:10:06 say check the fire control switch can we go and just for the sake of completeness can we go to a log which is at met trouble zero three nine eight five seven forward slash three

02:10:22 does that alter or change your view in any way

02:10:26 any way no it doesn't and for the same reason you've just given yes now if we can look at the same document but in respect of lift h091 which is at met trouble zero

02:10:37 which is at met trouble zero three nine eight five seven four slash five

02:10:45 again you've seen this document before i have seen that before yes does the content of that document or what you heard mr wallace say yesterday alter your opinion anyway no it doesn't

02:10:58 have you seen any evidence in the service visit reports that the maintenance engineers ever noted or commented upon the movement of the fire control switch from the ground floor

02:11:07 floor to the walkway and back to the ground floor again no i haven't seen it

02:11:13 would you make any criticism of that omission

02:11:20 no i'd expect the person that fitted the secondary the secondary switch to remove it under this under project two would you have expected the maintenance engineers to have commented

02:11:31 maintenance engineers to have commented upon

02:11:32 upon the disconnected walkway switch

02:11:36 no

02:11:40 because that would have been a job for others is that they've been job for others

02:11:43 others and they wouldn't and also they wouldn't know whether it was disconnected or not now looking at maintenance generally if

02:11:55 now looking at maintenance generally if we can go

02:11:55 we can go to your report and rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash one eight five and paragraph four seven two onwards

02:12:07 seven two onwards this element of your report sets out your

02:12:11 your assessment of the regime of maintenance generally is that right that's correct yes

02:12:16 yes can you summarize for the panel your essential views in relation to the adequacy

02:12:21 adequacy of the maintenance regime

02:12:26 i think it was adequate for the building but whether the engineer had enough time to do the work i'm not sure now you note there were a number of documents suggesting that residents had

02:12:39 documents suggesting that residents had concerns regarding the maintenance of the lifts and the quality and the tmo were also unhappy with the service and if we go to paragraph 474

02:12:52 paragraph 474 over the page

02:13:03 paragraph 474 over the page and you set out there almost all of the complaints which i reviewed relate to the reliability of the lifts while there may have been issues with the standard maintenance generally i have not seen material evidence which suggests that the maintenance of the fire safety features of the lifts

02:13:15 fire safety features of the lifts was deficient does that remain your view story about my view yes now could we go to your supplemental report which is rho quadruple zero trouble zero five

02:13:27 rho quadruple zero trouble zero five forward slash nine and paragraph 24 you say this overall having considered both

02:13:39 both reports no to do with maintenance in my view michael arnold identified a number of defects with lifts h090 and h091 in my opinion the lifts do not appear to be well kept

02:13:51 appear to be well kept and maintained so i disagree with his comment that they demonstrated a good standard

02:13:55 standard of maintenance and upkeep does that remain your view it still reminds me of you yes

02:14:03 no just for the avoidance of doubt i've taken you through various lift maintenance log books which are nine met trouble seven but there was nothing in that suite of documents which

02:14:14 nothing in that suite of documents which has caused you to alter the views set out

02:14:16 out nothing at all yeah thank you now can i turn to the question of an initial survey

02:14:21 survey and if i go back to your main report which is

02:14:25 which is rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash one nine zero and paragraph four seven eight now there you comment that you would

02:14:36 now there you comment that you would have expected pders to have carried out an initial survey on the lifts at grenfell when they took over the maintenance contract now can you help us what is the basis

02:14:47 basis of that opinion

02:14:50 well the opinion is that to take over a maintenance contract i would expect a lift contractor to inspect every lift to and look at any defects that may be a

02:15:01 and look at any defects that may be a part

02:15:01 part that weren't included in their price and in that regard i think it's right to say that you rely upon clause 780 of the relevant contract which is summarized here just below

02:15:13 summarized here just below your paragraph 478 is that right that's great yes sort of staff member would have carried

02:15:24 sort of staff member would have carried out an initial survey what level of experience and expertise i would experience a i expected a senior member of staff not direct level maybe a supervisor not a an engineer

02:15:37 maybe a supervisor not a an engineer or a mechanic so a senior technical surveyor something yes i would expect them um is it right that you would have expected pders to have assessed whether the lifts

02:15:48 pders to have assessed whether the lifts were firefighting lifts or not i would have expected it during the survey and as they were not would you have expected them therefore to have raised that fact with the tmo i would expect

02:16:00 that fact with the tmo i would expect that yes

02:16:01 that yes and did they do that i tried aware no now if we can turn to port paragraph 483 of your report which is at page 191

02:16:15 you say this

02:16:20 and it's towards the end of the first line pders were not ultimately responsible for ensuring compliance with the relevant standards

02:16:28 standards rather their duty was limited to highlighted clients as part of the initial survey it was then up to tmo to choose how to respond does that remain your view i still remind my view yes

02:16:39 remind my view yes so again as before when we talk about apex

02:16:43 apex ultimately the decision maker was the tma correct thank you can i now turn to bureau veritas now you conclude at paragraph

02:16:54 now you conclude at paragraph 501 of your report which is page 193 that bureau veritas's inspections were in line with what you'd expect of a statutory engineering inspection is that correct that's correct yes

02:17:05 that correct that's correct yes now in your supplemental report which is rho quadruple zero trouble zero five forward slash five uh you considered the evidence of michael arnold who's a bureau veritas

02:17:16 michael arnold who's a bureau veritas test engineer who visited tower on the 10th of april 2017.

02:17:21 2017. is that right that's correct and as part of that evidence he described the testing of the fire control switch correct now in your view was the testing procedure as described by mr arnold

02:17:32 procedure as described by mr arnold sufficient

02:17:36 no he he tested the switch to make to ensure that lift returns to the ground floor or the fire service level

02:17:45 level but it didn't check to make sure that all the other sub-circuits for a firefighting control were operational now mr arnold did not enter the lift while testing the fire control switch

02:17:56 while testing the fire control switch um he did not test whether the door closed feature worked or whether the lift would respond to multiple car calls again was that insufficient or sufficient insufficient

02:18:09 notwithstanding those emissions uh would mr arnold's testing have detected any significant faults with the fire control switch

02:18:20 his explanation for testing the switch with it

02:18:23 with it operate the switch so the switch would have worked but that's all that's that's the limit of it

02:18:30 of it and if we can turn over to paragraph 14

02:18:35 page six you say this although i cannot come to a safe conclusion as to why the lift did not work for firefighters on the 14th of june

02:18:45 june i would have expected the testing which mr arnold says he carried out to have picked up a significant fault which would have prevented an operator taking control of the lifts has happened on the night of the fire does that remain your view it still

02:18:56 does that remain your view it still reminds my view yes

02:19:00 can i now turn to review of the fire control

02:19:04 control switch

02:19:15 now can i ask you to go to your supplemental report which is a rho quadruple

02:19:20 quadruple zero trouble zero five forward slash 48

02:19:27 and if that could be amplified

02:19:32 that is a photograph of a far control switch is that right that's correct yes and the frequently referred to drop key is to the right that's correct thank you

02:19:46 i'm just following on from the chairman's earlier question as to how the

02:19:49 the euro key worked um how does the drop key operate the fire control switch the drop the drop key you would slide it through with the drop creed

02:20:00 through with the drop creed tube the

02:20:03 tube the drop key would drop down where it's a drop key labyrinth there's a micro switch assembly so when you turn it it would operate it moves the plate

02:20:15 it moves the plate thank you and can you explain why the dimensions of the key are are important and relevant

02:20:22 if the key if the drop key is not to the correct size or dimensions it won't be able to go it won't be able to operate through the dropkey labyrinth you're about to it'll be able to go through the dropkey tube and drop

02:20:34 go through the dropkey tube and drop down but it won't be able to operate the switch through the labyrinth thank you now um can i turn to the can i just ask this are there different sizes of dropkey

02:20:47 uh there shouldn't be

02:20:50 there's no standard for it this was a made by it was designed from the express lift company who got brought out by otis to their design so there's no dimensions that we could find out to to manufacture

02:21:02 that we could find out to to manufacture and were they the only supplier they

02:21:07 they were the only supplier and now there's a

02:21:11 there's a few component people that supply as well and presume that while otis were the animals express lifts were the only suppliers they they made them all to the same pattern

02:21:22 they made them all to the same pattern you would imagine so well do you have any reason to think they didn't i would i would imagine that if you bought it from one of the suppliers from from express they would be the same size yeah

02:21:36 they would be the same size yeah can i now turn um to the history of the fire control switch and paragraph 203 of your principle report if we can go to that

02:21:47 rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash two zero three and paragraph 518

02:21:57 now at this section of the report you note correspondence from 2010 which concerned a fire which the lfb

02:22:08 which concerned a fire which the lfb attended at grenfell tower and in which it was noted that the

02:22:12 that the fire control switch did not work you note the explanation provided by janice ray

02:22:17 ray that it was because the lift was overloaded and you also note the lfb notifiable fire report of the 22nd of december which you can find at iws quadruple zero

02:22:29 which you can find at iws quadruple zero one four six three four slash two uh which noted that the reason for the failure of the fire lift was quotes poor maintenance close quotes now in light of that notifiable

02:22:41 in light of that notifiable fire report would you change the conclusion which is that paragraph 528 of this report

02:22:48 report and if we go to that which is at page 205

02:22:58 where you say this janice and looking at the second line janice ray's evidence is that the firefighter's failure to operate the switch was due to user error she also comments that they may have

02:23:09 she also comments that they may have overloaded the lift by exceeding the safe working load there is no evidence the contrary and so it is most likely on the evidence that the reason the firefighters could not use the switch was due to a failure

02:23:20 not use the switch was due to a failure to operate the switch correctly does that remain your view it still remains my view yes

02:23:27 are you able to help us on what you have seen

02:23:33 seen as to why the fire control switch did not work

02:23:37 not work in 2010 i'm saying why the 2010 instant why it failed irrespective of what happened or did not happen in 2010

02:23:50 happened or did not happen in 2010 is your view that the evidence suggests that as the lifts were tested many times after the incident and worked any problem with the fire control switch was limited to that night

02:24:01 limited to that night i believe it was thank you now can i turn to project two um as we've discussed the purpose of the project was to extend the lifts to the mezzanine and walkway plus one floors

02:24:13 mezzanine and walkway plus one floors you also note that during these works the entrance of the building was moved from the ground floor to the walkway is that right that's correct and a second fire control switch was found

02:24:24 second fire control switch was found disconnected but still attached to the wall on the walkway grenfell tower off the fire is that right that's correct and so your interpretation of this evidence taken with the other material set out in your report is that the second fire

02:24:37 your report is that the second fire control switch was likely installed temporarily during project two whilst the ground floor was out of action i believe it was and that once the work was finished the

02:24:48 and that once the work was finished the fire control switch on the walkway floor was disconnected and the ground floor switch was reconnected correct

02:24:59 is your view that the second switch that had been disconnected is your view that it was liable uh to confuse firefighters in the event of their attending to fight a fire

02:25:11 their attending to fight a fire it could it could have do you have any evidence that it did no if we turn to your supplemental report which can be found at rho

02:25:22 which can be found at rho quadruple zero trouble zero five forward slash eighty four slash thirty three

02:25:35 uh you refer to an email there between two lfb employees from july 2014 and i'll just invite you to read it

02:26:05 but suffice to say your view is that the contents of that email support the view set out in your main report the fire control switch was temporarily moved away

02:26:13 away that's correct thank you now can i turn to the evidence of firefighters as to the use of the switch on the night of the fire itself and that is addressed in paragraph 543

02:26:26 and that is addressed in paragraph 543 onwards of your report which can be found at rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash 2007

02:26:38 am i right in thinking that this section of your report um is the result of your review of the witness statements and the oral evidence of firefighters who attended on the 14th of june that's correct and

02:26:49 on the 14th of june that's correct and that the

02:26:50 that the principal source of evidence you looked at was from crew manager secret that's correct and that as set out in this section apologies for summarizing he explained that soon after

02:27:01 summarizing he explained that soon after his arrival at the tower at 0 1 0 1 am he attempted to take control of the lift by putting his drop key into the fire control switch and turning it is that a first summary of your

02:27:12 is that a first summary of your understanding of his evidence that's a very fair summary and his and secrets evidence was that when he put the key in it hit some sort of stop he said that it felt like it wasn't connecting to the

02:27:23 felt like it wasn't connecting to the mechanism

02:27:23 mechanism it wasn't working as a result the firefighters called the lift the normal way

02:27:27 way again is that a fair summary that's a fair sign understanding that it is yes and you also note and if we turn to page 210

02:27:39 you also note as you can see there the evidence of crew manager gallagher and firefighter nuttel which you set out there

02:27:49 which is said yes i do

02:27:55 and just to draw out the evidence of firefighter nuttall um he was seen removing the key from the fire control switch at the tower but ultimately he did not know what had

02:28:06 but ultimately he did not know what had happened to that key is that a first summary of your understanding that's not very

02:28:09 very very fair summary and he cannot be sure that the key he eventually posted to the police was the same key that was removed from grenfell tower again is that a first summary of your

02:28:20 again is that a first summary of your understanding that's fair summary yes it is

02:28:22 is now can we turn to the examination of the switch itself which is at section q 3 of your report which is a paragraph 550 onwards and that details the various

02:28:33 550 onwards and that details the various examinations of the switch that were carried out after the fire now the first one i'd like to discuss with you is the wsp report and that was an independent site inspection report carried out for the

02:28:45 inspection report carried out for the metropolitan police and it's dated august 2018 is that right that's correct and that was set out at appendix 3 of your report which can be found at rho quadruple zero

02:28:56 quadruple zero trouble zero four forward slash eight eighty eight is that right that's correct uh you weren't involved in the writing of that report were you no i wasn't and you weren't present at the relevant testing no i wasn't

02:29:09 the relevant testing no i wasn't am i right in understanding that wsp removed and tested the fire control switches found on the ground floor and on the walkway floor i'm not sure about repo testing though definitely remove them

02:29:20 testing though definitely remove them and in relation to the ground floor switch the switch which the firefighters tried to use um they found was too difficult to operate with the drop key and the mechanism was seized and or deformed is that a fair summary that's a

02:29:32 deformed is that a fair summary that's a fair summary yes now if we go to your supplemental report which is

02:29:38 which is rho quadruple zero treble zero five forward slash four six

02:29:51 and if we look at paragraph 151 you note that you cannot comment further on wsp's findings as you are not present at the testing therefore you don't know what defamation

02:30:02 therefore you don't know what defamation they observed the level of debris present

02:30:04 present or the type of key used does that remain your view that's the remains of you yes were you able to review the photos taken by wsp

02:30:11 by wsp in any further detail yes i was and can we go to met trouble zero 78672

02:30:26 now this photo was taken by wsp and it shows a close-up of the fire control switch

02:30:31 switch itself is there anything which you can see in this close-up picture of the switch

02:30:36 switch which affects or informs your opinion

02:30:42 the sidewalls on that switch are definitely deformed

02:30:49 and to that extent supports at least the conclusion of defamation reached by wsp yes

02:30:54 yes thank you now you say the side wall is that the

02:31:00 that the we see that in the in the line that's running

02:31:04 running um left to right an angle about 45 degrees in in the plate now if i can help where there's a tube at the bottom of that plate that's 45 degrees

02:31:15 that plate that's 45 degrees there's a tube which is a little rectangular if you go up about a third there's a diff there's a piece of metal which is deformed it bends

02:31:26 deformed it bends it bends out that's it i think we're talking about the same thing okay i didn't describe it no okay thank you very much okay now can i turn to

02:31:34 turn to the second testing exercise which carried out in the 15th of february 2019 and that's considered and addressed in an arab briefing note and andre horne's report is that right

02:31:45 andre horne's report is that right that's correct yes and you explain the findings of further examinations um the arab briefing note is appendix five of your report and it was dated the first of march 2019 is that right that's correct

02:31:56 is that right that's correct and the testing took place on the 50th of february 2019 at bre that's correct were you present i was present now this testing the switch recovered from the ground floor of the tower was

02:32:07 from the ground floor of the tower was compared to an exemplar switch is that right that's correct um could we go to rho quadruple zero trouble zero four forward slash two three one

02:32:20 uh what do these photographs show us if you take the top the top pair of photographs you see the def on the left hand you see the deformed side wards

02:32:31 the deformed side wards where on the right right hand one is the exemplar

02:32:35 exemplar straight from the from the supplier and they're straight now in february 2019 what was considered to be the likely cause of the defamation

02:32:46 to be the likely cause of the defamation of the walls as illustrated by the left-hand side of photographs it was considered that the an incorrect object key was used to

02:32:57 an incorrect object key was used to operate the switch um is it right that the switch was also jammed switch was jammed yes now bearing in mind that evidence if we could just go back to your supplemental

02:33:08 could just go back to your supplemental or stay in your sorry go back to your supplemental report rho quadruple zero trouble zero five forward slash four eight

02:33:19 and if the photograph at the top can be expanded it's the one we looked at earlier on

02:33:26 what are the blue arrows identifying for us

02:33:31 us they identified where the micro is where there is debris observed

02:33:37 now just help us on this the top arrow top blue arrow is pointing to one of the places where debris was observed and it appears to be

02:33:49 observed and it appears to be a flat plate is that right that's correct

02:33:52 correct and would we be right in understanding that the

02:33:56 that the when the key is operated it bears on the horizontal extension of the plate in front of the labyrinth yes and turns the micro switch as a result

02:34:09 and turns the micro switch as a result of

02:34:09 of working the plate that's it yes and the switch itself is below we can see that in the diagram and debris reserved on was observed on

02:34:20 and debris reserved on was observed on the

02:34:21 the uppermost surface of the plate where it's identified right that's correct yes and also below the plate but i can't see at the moment

02:34:31 moment what it was resting on that's the that is actually the electrical that is this that is a micro switch it's on there around it

02:34:38 around it around the around the switch the plast the plastic housing right and when the switch is operated i take it that the

02:34:50 take it that the vertical pin that you can see turns is that right is it a toggle switch well yeah but yeah the internet that's it and

02:35:03 it turns the switch within the housing either

02:35:07 either we're marked electrical micro switch or within the black area but i mean the debris below uh the level of the plate

02:35:19 uh the level of the plate in other words where it's shown on the lower blue arrow would not actually affect the turning of the spindle is that right that's correct yes it was just shown where where they're on the inspection where those where's where we saw debris thank you

02:35:31 where's where we saw debris thank you thank you very much now the testing process that was undertaken that someone inserted a drop key into the switch is that right that's correct uh you weren't the

02:35:43 that's correct uh you weren't the individual who did that no um but the person who did was what you described as an adult of ordinary strength

02:35:49 strength yes now that person inserted the key into the switch and is it right that at first the switch did not operate that's correct with some manipulation the debris on the microswitch cleared is

02:36:01 the debris on the microswitch cleared is that right that's correct and by manipulation what did you mean i mean turning the key backwards and forwards

02:36:09 forwards was anything else done to clear the debris nothing at all

02:36:16 can you usefully assist the panel on what degree of force was applied by the individual who inserted the key into the switch if not say i can't

02:36:30 i can't say what force it was because i don't know it was a an adult an adult man he wasn't trying to force it he was just living with him because fought back and forth so i don't know what force was applied

02:36:41 so i don't know what force was applied to it what debris was found it was um about half to three quarters of a spoonful of

02:36:52 half to three quarters of a spoonful of builder's rubbish may look like plaster of to be quite honest but i'm not a non-materials expert dare i ask what size spoon

02:37:01 a teaspoon right thank you that was the next question of normal size

02:37:10 um and just so that we've understood this correctly this is a sealed unit is it apart from the aperture at the top for the wiring entry

02:37:21 the top for the wiring entry and the aperture for the drop keys that's correct that would go into a back box yeah now wsp were unable to operate the

02:37:32 now wsp were unable to operate the switch during their site visit in april 2018 but in february 19 it was possible to operate the switch are you able to help us as to why wsp

02:37:43 are you able to help us as to why wsp were unable to do so if you can't say please say so they were assisting the metropolitan police so i don't know they may have been

02:37:51 been advised by the metropolitan police not to just to remove it now you also refer in your report to a report

02:38:00 report prepared by andre horne dated the 12th of november 2019 and that report started by describing the testing that was carried out in the 15th of february is that right that's correct yes now mr horn comes to

02:38:12 that's correct yes now mr horn comes to the same conclusion that forceful manipulation of a fitting key would have moved the switch frame arms is that a fair summary that's correct

02:38:21 correct and switch anticipating a question the chairman may ask switch frame arms uh is a reference to the micro switch

02:38:32 the labyrinth thank you the sideboards

02:38:39 in your supplemental report a paragraph 170

02:38:43 170 and we can find it at page 50. so just i'm sorry to keep interrupting you skinnier but it's quite important that we get as good a picture as we can of this from

02:38:52 this from whatever source um you told us a moment ago mr hawkins that there was about a half to three quarters of a teaspoon of debris

02:39:02 of debris um was that all from one place or in one place or

02:39:06 place or is that the total of the two debris in the two places you've marked

02:39:12 that was from the debris on but from the true place we marked so the total amount of debris yes it came to

02:39:20 came to half three teaspoons if i can explain when the force manipulation went the there is on a workbench at bre and that's what we found on the bit on the bench after it moved

02:39:32 on the bit on the bench after it moved right and had it all cleared from the box

02:39:36 box yes thank you now if we can go to page 50 in your supplemental report and it's paragraph 170

02:39:48 you say this i cannot say when the switch became jammed i.e whether it was before the fire during the fire after the fire but before the removal of the switch from the building or after the removal of the switch from

02:40:00 or after the removal of the switch from the building is that a fair summary that's a fair summary yes but that overall um your conclusions are set out in paragraph 171 and they are threefold first of all

02:40:11 and they are threefold first of all there was debris found on the switch which caused it to jam but it could have been cleared and was in fact cleared with manipulation with a fitting key is that right that's correct secondly

02:40:22 correct secondly if an express drop key of the incorrect dimensions had been used the fire control switch would not have worked regardless of whether there was debris present or not is that right yes finally on the night

02:40:33 is that right yes finally on the night of the fire if the debris you observed had been present and an express drop key of the correct dimensions had been used it should not have prevented use the fire control switch but it may have increased the time

02:40:44 increased the time needed to operate that switch is that a first that's a fair assessment yes matt can i turn to the third and final element of testing that was carried out and that is set out in the university of northampton report

02:40:57 northampton report now you explain in your own main report that the switch was sent to the university of northampton for further testing and the results of that are set out in a report dated the 27th of october 2019 is that right that's correct

02:41:09 2019 is that right that's correct were you present for that round of testing no i wasn't and again is it right to say that an exemplar fire control switch was tested and that had been obtained from a a electrical who mr pointer thought were

02:41:21 electrical who mr pointer thought were the manufacturers of the switch that's correct

02:41:24 correct now is it right that the principal findings indeed i think there are eight of the university of northampton's testings are those which are set out in paragraph 560 of your main report

02:41:35 in paragraph 560 of your main report at page 214 and if we can go to that a 560 could be expanded

02:41:47 a 560 could be expanded are those the key findings at the university of northampton they are yes

02:41:54 and i think they also found that the sidewards and switch frame arm were bent

02:42:01 bent due to the use of an ill-fitting key and the use of excessive force is that right that's correct and if we could

02:42:09 could go to paragraph 565 which is a page 215 of your main report

02:42:20 your conclusion is that it is unlike or seems unlikely that the jam or the bent sideways could have caused the fire control switch to fail if a fitting key had been used does that

02:42:31 if a fitting key had been used does that remain your view that's normalized our view yes

02:42:35 view yes now if i could look at your consideration of the drop key that was used on the night of the fire and if i could ask you to turn to page 217

02:42:44 217 in this report

02:42:50 and if we can go to page 221 in particular and paragraph 596

02:43:01 and cutting to the chase your view is this that i do not consider that there is sufficient evidence for me to come to a safe conclusion as to which dru lift drop key was used on the night of the fire does that remain your view let's do a

02:43:12 does that remain your view let's do a major view yes

02:43:16 could we go to paragraph 5 8 1 which is a page 218

02:43:33 and we see there those are the various possibilities you considered in reaching the view which is a paragraph 596. that's correct thank you can i now turn to

02:43:44 to the topic of why the lifts failed on the night

02:43:48 night possibly the core question arising here and

02:43:51 and we were discussing earlier on the report prepared by andre horn from november 2019 and if we go to rho quadruple zero trouble zero

02:44:02 rho quadruple zero trouble zero four forward slash 257

02:44:14 now mr horn describes there in somewhat dense type the testing that took place on the 29th of july 2019 were you present for that no i wasn't oh

02:44:26 were you present for that no i wasn't oh sorry yeah that one yes i was yes

02:44:30 apologies and the principal points arising from this report are those set out sorry for leaping about but in your main report

02:44:41 about but in your main report rho quadruple zero trouble zero three two one eight

02:44:50 through two two one nine and really set out at paragraph five eight four onwards but the exemplar key was tested on the fire control switch recovered from the tower is that right

02:45:02 tower is that right that's correct the key did not work easily but if sufficient force was applied it could be used correct this key could have caused the damage the side wards which was observed correct

02:45:14 wards which was observed correct um the key labeled ljh 67 so that's the key that was sent by firefighter nuttall was also tested is that right that's correct and if we go to paragraph five nine two

02:45:26 and if we go to paragraph five nine two page two two 220

02:45:32 does that paragraph set out the results of the testing using that key it does and if we could go to paragraph 595 at

02:45:45 and if we could go to paragraph 595 at page 221

02:45:49 and if we'd amplify the top row

02:45:55 which is lgh ljh flash cystic 7 which is the key provided by firefighter not all the conclusions were that its dimensions were so grossly different that the key was unusable is that right

02:46:06 that the key was unusable is that right that's correct yes and the key could be inserted into the fire control switch but it could not be turned is that right that's correct and it could have caused the damage which is observed to the side wards is that

02:46:16 that correct

02:46:23 now mr horn carried out further testing on the 7th of february 2020 and the results of that are set out in reports dated the 15th of may and the 28th of august 2020.

02:46:34 28th of august 2020. were you at present were you present for those later rounds of testing no i wasn't

02:46:39 wasn't and is it right that mr horn tested another two drop keys one which had been provided by the lfb and another purchase from ebay that's correct and if

02:46:50 purchase from ebay that's correct and if we

02:46:53 we uh summarizes key conclusions thus all the keys are of different sizes correct the key provided by ricky nuttle was very significantly different in its

02:47:04 was very significantly different in its dimensions correct the key provided by ricky not all was so different in dimension that when put in the fire control switch it could not be turned correct that key could not have caused

02:47:15 correct that key could not have caused the damage the side wards observed in the switch removed from the grenfell tower but the damage could have been caused before the fire and would not have prevented a fitted key from working correct

02:47:29 so is it fair to say that drawing out those strands of the evidence there were three explanations as to why firefighters were unable to take control of the lift on the night and these are set out at paragraph 598

02:47:40 and these are set out at paragraph 598 of your report at page 222

02:47:47 and we see them there possibility one crew manager secret was unable to take control of the lifts as a lift drop key of incorrect dimensions was used which could not operate the switch cm secret was unable to take control of

02:47:59 cm secret was unable to take control of the lifts as the fire control switch was faulty in some other unidentified way and three cm secret was unable to take control of the lift as the fire had affected the limits such as the fire control switch did not

02:48:11 such as the fire control switch did not work

02:48:13 now are you able to assist the inquiry as to which possibility you consider to be more likely than not

02:48:23 possibility one is my most likely okay and if we turn over to apparently look at paragraph five well i think i mean

02:48:34 at paragraph five well i think i mean ultimately that course is a question for us but what might helpful is to know whether there are technical reasons which tend to point in one direction rather than that's why that's what i was if i could come on to

02:48:45 that's what i was if i could come on to that and do corsa can we look at paragraph 599

02:48:54 now here you set out a number of observations um to assist the panel which are i think you consider relevant to the likelihood

02:49:06 to the likelihood of the relevant possibilities um first of all that same secret attempt to take control the list of an early stage and the lifts continue to operate normally for some time after this

02:49:17 normally for some time after this is that right that's correct secondly none of the forensic reports or examinations disclosed any fire related or smoke related damage the fire control switch is that right that's correct and that is particularly

02:49:29 correct and that is particularly relevant when considering the possibility of heat damage so ie possibility three correct and the witness evidence of engineers from bureau veritas and pders

02:49:41 from bureau veritas and pders which you set out in the report is that they tested the fire control switch before the fire and did not identify any faults is that right that's correct

02:49:54 right that's correct now having set out those observations and if we can go back up to paragraph 598

02:50:05 whilst this is a matter solely for the panel

02:50:09 panel are you able to provide your opinion as to which of those possibilities you consider to be more likely than not

02:50:19 i still i'm still the opinion that possibility one is the most likely cause

02:50:30 if the fire control switch had been code compliant

02:50:33 compliant and operable by means of the euro triangle key would that have made any difference or are you unable to assist the panel on that point if the euro key had been provided to

02:50:45 if the euro key had been provided to operate the switch yes it would have been easier because it's a standard key

02:50:52 now can i uh turn to the final question which is performance of the lifts on the night

02:50:58 night this is dealt with at section r of your report and page 224 onwards if we can go to paragraph six yes paragraph six zero three at page two two four

02:51:12 now uh there you explain that the evidence from phase one and this is in broad terms obviously if the number of residents use the lifts to escape from the tower is that right that's correct and that from paragraph 604 onward you

02:51:25 and that from paragraph 604 onward you know lifts were also associated with a number of fatalities as residents try to use the lifts to escape is that right that is correct um had the fire um brigade been able to take control of the lifts

02:51:37 take control of the lifts they may not necessarily have been able to be used by resin to escape but would residents have been protected in other ways

02:51:49 the requirement is that you don't use lifts in the event of a fire so i would assume that the residents would use the staircases

02:52:01 the residents would use the staircases now if we can go to page 226

02:52:10 you set out here a number of lift controller logs i suppose the key question is were you able to extract anything useful from those logs no and why was that

02:52:24 no and why was that we weren't it was they were extracted by wsp there was it was taken from the controller when it was taken to examination

02:52:35 taken to examination and there's a lot of incidents around 1 1.15

02:52:43 1 1.15 there could be people holding the doors it could be people press pressing the buttons and holding the door holding the the course the call station so

02:52:54 the course the call station so we know that this assuming the timing on the controller is correct the lifts were running and if we can scroll forward to paragraph

02:53:08 635

02:53:17 thank you set up your conclusions here is it fair to summarize the position thus that the most that can be said is that both lifts appear to have become stuck on the 10th floor

02:53:28 stuck on the 10th floor with lift h090 recording its final event 0307 correct and that lifts 0 9 1 recording its final event

02:53:39 event at 0 to 33 hours correct and that you go on to conclude in 63 sorry 635.2 and i quote on the night of the fire the

02:53:50 and i quote on the night of the fire the lifts were operational according to the wsp report until approximately zero three zero seven hours lift eight zero nine zero left hand lift and zero two thirty one lift eight zero nine one right hand left

02:54:02 lift eight zero nine one right hand left during the period this period the residents and firefighters at grenfell tower were able to use these lifts does that remain your view i still remember my view yes am i right in understanding that you're

02:54:13 am i right in understanding that you're uh not able to assist the panel on the spread of smoke uh into the lifts

02:54:19 the lifts that's correct and so you're unable to assist them as to whether and if so when lifts might have become unusable due to smoke spread that's correct

02:54:30 um so i've come to the end of my prepared questions i'd be grateful for an opportunity to see

02:54:38 see most likely if there's some matters which i haven't covered which i ought to and see were there any other relevant questions

02:54:43 questions from cps yes now um we're getting close to the time at which we would normally break for lunch but i think it would be helpful to try and complete mr harkin's evidence as soon as

02:54:56 complete mr harkin's evidence as soon as we can i expect you feel the same as tarkins don't you yes i'll take it so how long do you think you might need for this ten minutes or more um could i have

02:55:07 ten minutes or more um could i have until ten past one yes and then um if i need more time or less time

02:55:11 less time then i'd ask the usher to contact you well ms tarkin says i think you know when council gets the end of his questions we have to have a break to give him a chance to check that nothing's been overlooked

02:55:22 nothing's been overlooked and also give a chance to others who are following from other places a chance to suggest additional questions which perhaps we ought to uh ask you so we'll break now until

02:55:32 now until 10 past one we'll come back at 10 past one and see whether there are any further questions for you okay all right thank you very much and in the meantime please don't talk to anyone about your evidence okay thank you thank you very much you'd

02:55:44 okay thank you thank you very much you'd like to give the usher

02:55:56 thank you very much ten plus one thanks

03:08:54 would you ask us to hopkins come back in

03:09:00 please [Applause]

03:09:08 right miss tokens well we'll see if there are more questions for you yes mr clear sir thank you um just a few um mr howkins are you in a position to comment

03:09:17 comment on mr morehouse's assessment of the cost of

03:09:20 of up enhancing uh the existing lifts to give them firefighting status the figure he put on it and he very much emphasized uh it was an approximate estimate was

03:09:31 uh it was an approximate estimate was between 70 and 100 000 pounds are you able to comment on the reasonableness of that figure no i'm not it was a long time ago so i don't know what the cost would be

03:09:45 don't know what the cost would be are you able to assist in any way on costings the various upgrades that have been discussed in evidence today on uh mr ellis's evidence

03:09:56 on uh mr ellis's evidence he gave costings for some minor items which i think were reasonable thank you that was fire control switch waterproofing thank you

03:10:08 waterproofing thank you now you suggested that the wsp investigator

03:10:14 may not have tested the fire control switch when located in grenfell tower could we go to your main report and page two one two that's rho

03:10:25 two one two that's rho quadruple zero trouble zero three forward slash two one two

03:10:34 and this is where you set out um findings and we see it paragraph five 555

03:10:44 the following findings were made by on page 16 of the wsp report if we can turn over the page we see a conclusion the firemen switch was difficult to operate

03:10:58 firemen switch was difficult to operate given that is it fair to take it that the wsp investigator did try and operate the fire control switch

03:11:09 operate the fire control switch yes i believe you could you could interpret it that way

03:11:17 and that he discovered as a result of that

03:11:21 that the mechanism was seized damaged and deformed as you set out in your evidence that's correct thank you um mr hawkins sir those are all the questions i have for you um so it leaves me mr harkin to

03:11:33 for you um so it leaves me mr harkin to say thank you very much for attending today

03:11:35 today yes thank you mr kennedy well mr hurkins it's uh right that i should thank you very much on behalf of all three members of the panel not just for your coming here to give evidence today which we've i think all found very interesting and

03:11:46 i think all found very interesting and very helpful but also for all the work that's gone into your major report and the supplemental report

03:11:53 report they're very formative and very helpful and we are very grateful to you indeed thank you

03:11:57 thank you it's been a very useful exercise for me as well good thank you very much everybody well thank you and that's uh all we have for you so you are now free to go a little later than probably you'd hope but at least your

03:12:08 probably you'd hope but at least your way now okay thank you thank you very much

03:12:11 much thank you

03:12:24 [Music]

03:12:30 okay on this canary i understand that the witness we were hoping to call next is not available for medical reasons

03:12:41 reasons and that means that we shall have to stop the hearing at this point for today unfortunately that's right sir and it also means that we can't have any witness tomorrow i understand

03:12:52 witness tomorrow i understand that is right so we will break now and we'll resume next week monday morning at 10 o'clock is that right that's with abigail acosta thank you very much so monday morning

03:13:03 thank you very much so monday morning next week at 10 o'clock please

03:13:18 you