Brief afternoon session of London Fire Brigade evidence examining control training reviews, pre-inquest action implementation, and fundamental refresh of control officer training programs.
00:00:25 would you ask mr brown to come back in please okay
00:00:35 all right this is rona yes thank you sir
00:00:39 right thank you very much yes mr kennedy when you're ready thank you sir um mr brown can we now turn on to pre-inquest action 16. excuse me which um was a general review of training delivered to control
00:00:51 of training delivered to control officers uh to confirm that the fsg training was suitable and sufficient now the first starting point really for this
00:01:00 this is your second statement and could we go to lfb trouble zero eight four zero two zero four slash fourteen
00:01:10 and if we go to paragraph 35 where you say this
00:01:13 say this i did not have any direct involvement in the review control officer training i note the review report states this report contains observations and recommendations of sm steve kelly
00:01:24 recommendations of sm steve kelly station training support and performance team
00:01:27 team um is it right that this pre-action pre-inquest action was met in the first instance at least by mr kelly's report of august 2010 that's correct yes
00:01:39 of august 2010 that's correct yes um could we now turn to the lachnal control report uh which we can find at h o m quadruple zero double one two four forward slash five two
00:01:52 excuse me
00:01:56 and if we could look at paragraph 309
00:02:02 and then we see recommendation 3 in the box below the substantive text and that recommendation said this control officer training should be kept under review with formal periodic reviews such reviews should include
00:02:14 reviews such reviews should include officer from outside control who can advise on the specialist content of training eg fire safety and then we see action three below that which says initial audit completed this is to be an
00:02:27 initial audit completed this is to be an ongoing process and what steps did you take to implement an ongoing audit process for control training was that simply a system of formal periodic reviews
00:02:40 formal periodic reviews i think
00:02:42 i think it was a system of formal periodic reviews it certainly was our intention that uh
00:02:53 it certainly was our intention that uh the
00:02:54 the the team
00:02:55 the team with which they even kelly worked for would revisit or albeit that they wasn't strictly speaking and responsibility because it's not been outsourced to babcock but
00:03:07 it's not been outsourced to babcock but nevertheless that was our plan but i don't think that ever came to fruition i think it's one point on which you mr hayward agreed he could not identify that there was an ongoing audit process
00:03:19 that there was an ongoing audit process and can you help us as to why there wasn't an ongoing audit process
00:03:25 uh we we i think what we did was we took the opportunity as and when it arrives so for example the the mopac opportunity and
00:03:35 and and then the opportunity when the stress survey suggested uh a review was was appropriate and then of course uh and i'm you know apologies for
00:03:46 i'm you know apologies for for referring constantly but the the vision
00:03:49 vision uh issue just completely swamped us in terms of other other things i think probably
00:03:55 probably that was our attempt to deal with it but vision clearly got in the way can you explain why the coroner was told that that would be an ongoing audit process
00:04:06 an ongoing audit process i think because that was that was genuinely our intention that it would be more of a scheduled audit process along the lines of what steve kelly had done but for the reasons i've just laid out
00:04:18 but for the reasons i've just laid out it never quite happened that way could we turn to lfb trouble zero six zero seven zero one forward slash one
00:04:33 we've looked at this email correspondence earlier uh today and if we could look at uh assistant commissioner chandler's email to you on the 28th of june 2013.
00:04:44 2013. if we can turn over to page two and it's roughly
00:04:47 roughly halfway down that page he deals with item 16 which is action 16 which we're discussing now excuse me he said this
00:04:57 said this completed 22nd of june 2010 yes in part the planning and recording of general control training has improved however
00:05:08 control training has improved however the training syllabus for control needs a fundamental refresh and needs to be brought into the mainstream training provision applicable to the rest of the brigade we should give consideration to control training being subject to
00:05:19 control training being subject to independent scrutiny and assessment recommended action a fundamental review of control training should be undertaken in 2015-16
00:05:30 should be undertaken in 2015-16 training for control should be brought under the training contract currently in place with babcock explore the options for independent external peer review or audit of control training
00:05:42 training what did you make of the control training training needed a fundamental refresh
00:05:51 yes i i wouldn't uh wouldn't disagree with that uh and this his first point the fundamental review of training should be undertaken in 1516.
00:06:00 1516. so that an element of that was included in tom george's report although richard's recommendation wasn't the catalyst for tom george's report
00:06:11 tom george's report did you discuss these findings and his recommendations with mr chandler yes yes i did and what was his uh rationale for placing control training in the
00:06:22 placing control training in the responsibility of babcock uh because uh babcock had uh responsibility for the rest of the brigade by now and we were seeing some real benefits of that in terms of the
00:06:34 real benefits of that in terms of the quality of the training being delivered to uh station based staff so richard not uh not unreasonably took the view that we should outsource it to uh babcock and
00:06:47 we should outsource it to uh babcock and and i think there was a few others in the guide control that probably felt the same did you agree with that recommendation i agreed with it in terms of a long-term goal
00:06:57 goal but but not at that moment in time i didn't and what were the obstacles to short or medium-term implementation of that goal
00:07:05 that goal because
00:07:06 because in my view what would have happened is babcock would have understandably taken our training staff and subsumed them into the
00:07:18 and subsumed them into the babcock uh as babacok employees and then we as an organisation would have lost any control over immediate uh training that and and that we was at a
00:07:31 training that and and that we was at a time now where we really needed that immediate training and we weren't we wouldn't be able to uh respond uh immediately in a way we currently could
00:07:42 could and and also if they became babcock trainers then babcock again would understandably utilize them maybe to train other brigades so sorry to interrupt there but what
00:07:53 so sorry to interrupt there but what consideration was that though of phased implementation of
00:07:58 of babcock being responsible for training so you avoided the problem of your staff being immediately subsumed into the babcock network and set up alternative arrangements so that it was phased over a fixed period of time
00:08:10 a fixed period of time we didn't set up uh phased arrangements that structurally but what we did do was agree that the big learning and the cbts would be delivered by babcock
00:08:22 cbts would be delivered by babcock but the actual employment of our staff into the bangkok structure would would be revisited in time and i had some discussions with peter groves around this
00:08:33 peter groves around this so whilst we didn't set a date in time when that would happen we certainly parked it for the future that this this would be an aspiration it doesn't appear to have cropped up
00:08:44 it doesn't appear to have cropped up in the documents as a as a topic to which you routinely returned it's not a fair observation that's that's correct yes so nothing ever happened further in terms of not of consideration
00:08:56 terms of not of consideration not whilst i was there now um what was mr chandler's rationale for subjecting control training to independent assessment and review i think that was purely on the basis that
00:09:07 that steve kelly had come in and uh and and given a a a good and sound review of control and it seemed a good idea to repeat that
00:09:18 seemed a good idea to repeat that process
00:09:20 process mr kelly had not given control and training in particular a good bill of health there's much to be said for having the operations in control in particular training uh subject to third-party scrutiny wasn't that
00:09:32 third-party scrutiny wasn't that uh yes
00:09:33 uh yes what happened to that recommendation
00:09:38 i think that i mean when you say third-party scrutiny uh independent yes someone outside the lfb ah okay outside dlfb
00:09:48 dlfb so there were peer reviews going on with other fire services and i think it's come before the inquiry we had a peer review
00:09:55 review control training wasn't part of that peer review wasn't subjected uh to that particular audit so i think in our mind it was the case that at some point we would introduce that
00:10:06 would introduce that but in the interim it was the likes of mopac and uh and people like tom george who who were independent because they were part weren't part of control that were carrying out various different reviews but we didn't we didn't get to
00:10:19 reviews but we didn't we didn't get to the point that the spirit of what richard was recommending here and nothing happened in short not outside of what i've said no i think we touched upon the peer review
00:10:32 i think we touched upon the peer review uh in module five evidence and i can't remember whether we discussed that with you um but can you help us to why control training did not form part of that particular peer review process i think uh the peer review there i think
00:10:45 i think uh the peer review there i think there were four issues and and i believe we did discuss it but there were
00:10:52 i guess more pressing organisational issues so for example industrial relations was one of those which was a real uh obstacle for us at the time organisationally
00:11:03 us at the time organisationally and and i guess brigade control training uh just didn't make it onto that list at that time is the short answer mr uh chandler also recommended that a
00:11:14 mr uh chandler also recommended that a fundamental review of control training should take place in 2015 2016. that review didn't take place did it not in the way richard chandler meant no
00:11:25 richard chandler meant no but as i say tom george's review there was an aspect of it that i think we've looked at this morning that did cover familiarisation and training so it was an it
00:11:37 it was an it acknowledged this although i won't pretend to say that richard's action was the issue that promoted tom george's report
00:11:45 report mr george accepted that his review wasn't the fundamental review anticipated by mr chandler um can you help us as to why the root and branch scrutiny that mr chandler envisaged and
00:11:56 scrutiny that mr chandler envisaged and recommended didn't take place
00:12:01 i i would suggest it was because vision was introduced in 2015 in november
00:12:09 november [Music]
00:12:11 [Music] and there was there was a lot of
00:12:18 upset i guess in control in terms of coming to terms with the new system which is why i didn't want it a part of tom george's review and i dealt with that personally with staff side
00:12:30 that personally with staff side and i felt that to do a root and branch review of training at that point in time would be
00:12:36 would be would be unnecessarily colored by the review of vision some people even thought that tom george's review shouldn't go ahead at that time because of vision
00:12:46 of vision but nevertheless i thought the issues that come out of stress survey were so powerful that we couldn't not do a review mr brown i've come to the end of my prepared questions um sir might ask for
00:12:59 prepared questions um sir might ask for quarter of an hour to see if there's anything i've missed out yes is there any other suggestions from those who have been watching proceedings right thinking well as you know mr brown we have a break at this point to enable the council to check that nothing's been
00:13:11 council to check that nothing's been overlooked and to allow other people to suggest questions that perhaps we ought to ask you so we'll we'll break now we'll come back to two please and as before please don't discuss
00:13:23 don't discuss your evidence with anyone in the interim okay thank you sir and then we'll see if there's any more questions for you at that stage thank you very much
00:13:38 right you can see how fast two was to clear thank you very much
00:30:22 thank you would you ask mr brown to come back in please
00:30:34 right mr brown we'll see if there's any more questions thank you sir yes mr canoe uh just briefly please sir um in your evidence i think it was on thursday um i asked you about um what
00:30:45 thursday um i asked you about um what action you took to ensure that the level of resources in control could meet circumstances in which there were multiple fsg calls and in your answer you state that you didn't take action in broad terms for a number of reasons one
00:30:57 broad terms for a number of reasons one of which was that you were comfortable with the buddy system or fallback arrangements which gave quotes unlimited support close quotes would you accept though notwithstanding
00:31:08 would you accept though notwithstanding that answer that the lfbs fsg systems and arrangements must be sufficiently resilient in themselves not least because the buddy system itself had its own limitations
00:31:20 uh yeah i would accept that we would not fall back to the buddy system uh routinely and we should be sustainable absolutely
00:31:33 sustainable absolutely equally though obviously
00:31:35 obviously we cannot resource ourselves for every possible incident and it's it's the it's safe in the knowledge that all control rooms across the across england and wales can assist each other
00:31:47 england and wales can assist each other if absolutely necessary
00:31:53 thank you mr brown the reason i'm hesitant you're hesitating the same reason that i'm about to interrupt you which is the transcript's not running um i don't i'm just going to see whether i can uh
00:32:06 have you tried refreshing it
00:32:09 not personally well that's what i've just tried and now i've got nothing ah
00:32:20 i think it's not it hasn't solved it do you have a large number of questions that's it and that was it yes but then in that case i think we can
00:32:32 case i think we can finish and and uh the remaining exchanges will obviously be taken down and will appear in the transcript of course i think so the only final thing for me to say is to say thank you
00:32:43 thing for me to say is to say thank you to mr brown not least because this is the second time upon which you've attempted to give evidence um over the past few weeks so we're very grateful to you thank you thank you yes mr brown well you are one of the few people who's made two appearances before
00:32:55 people who's made two appearances before the inquiry and we are very grateful to you for coming along the second time as i think i said to you last time it's always
00:33:02 always very um
00:33:03 very um helpful to us to hear what people have to tell us particularly from senior people in the london fire brigade so we are very welcome and i think i can say that safely on behalf of all three members of
00:33:14 safely on behalf of all three members of the panel so thank you so much thank you very much indeed and that's it then and you're free to go thank you thank you very much
00:33:29 yes mr now um we have other witnesses to hear in due course but not i think today is that right that's right that is the end of the evidence for today mr millett will be taking former commissioner danny
00:33:40 be taking former commissioner danny cotton tomorrow right great thank you very much indeed well we'll break at that point and we'll resume here tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock please thank you thank you very much [Music]
00:34:02 you