London Fire Brigade Evidence - Tuesday 16th November 2021 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:29 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing

00:00:32 hearing today we're going to continue hearing evidence from miss joanne smith of the london fire brigade so would you ask me smith to come in please

00:00:50 good morning miss smith goodbye

00:00:58 right ready to carry on i hope yes thank you good thank you yes yesterday yes mr chairman good morning to you mr chairman good morning members of the panel to you good morning miss smith um smith before i begin can i just ask you please uh to

00:01:10 i begin can i just ask you please uh to keep your answers a little bit shorter and focus on the question looking at the transcript yesterday it was apparent that some of your answers got a little bit longer than perhaps was strictly necessary so if i could ask you please

00:01:22 necessary so if i could ask you please to try to do that that would be very helpful to us i would like to ask you some questions next about the latino house board and its meeting on the 15th of september 2010. last night we were in 2010 and we

00:01:33 2010. last night we were in 2010 and we were looking at the development of the training packages can we go please to lfb triple zero 5519

00:01:45 and this is a note of the meeting which you and scott hayward attended as you can see from page one and the list of attendees there and if you go to paragraph 5.4 at the

00:01:56 and if you go to paragraph 5.4 at the foot of the page under post actions you can see that it says fsg training has been reviewed to ensure it fully aligns with 1093

00:02:07 with 1093 subject recommendations made to clg all control staff have now received refresher training in fsg did you or scott haywood provide that update

00:02:16 update yes we must have yes did your scott hayward tell the latino house board that the fsg training you were delivering did not in fact fully align with 1093

00:02:27 not in fact fully align with 1093 no we didn't do you accept that you may have given them the impression that it did when it didn't

00:02:35 no i think we believed that the training we were providing and that we'd witnessed uh

00:02:42 uh aligned with the recommendations we'd made in 1093. we saw yesterday that there was some uh lack of alignment wasn't there thus far yes i think um

00:02:54 yes i think um an apologies i think i might have got confused you showed me the presentation for the new entrance training yesterday and and that wouldn't have been the the document and and the presentation

00:03:07 the document and and the presentation that scott and iron tim cut bill and john bradbury reviewed uh

00:03:13 uh for because that was for new entrants we would have reviewed the refresher training

00:03:18 training so there's a different set of packages is there for refreshers yes right

00:03:26 so we would have just commented and had a presentation on what training team intended to roll out for the refresher training and i hadn't seen the new entrance training

00:03:38 seen the new entrance training right so help me um the reason i put what i put to you yesterday as the subject of your review was because the document was generated in june

00:03:48 in june fsg call handling you'll remember the presentation of the file date of the 24th of june on it 2010 yes which would have been after the uh after the new entrance training in the

00:03:59 after the new entrance training in the march of 2010 and before your second of july review yes put that to you yesterday i understand but i must have there were two presentations and we wouldn't have ever reviewed the

00:04:11 and we wouldn't have ever reviewed the new entrance training i had no involvement in new entrance training you had no involvement in new engines training are you able to explain why you were reviewing a package dated the 24th of june or the 2nd of

00:04:23 dated the 24th of june or the 2nd of july

00:04:25 july if it didn't relate to refresher training

00:04:27 training it i'm sure i believe the package we reviewed

00:04:31 reviewed that the one that we all uh attended and was delivered was uh for

00:04:39 uh for the proposed refresher training in the september 2010. all right well let's see how we go because we may we may be able to identify that in the course of your of your evidence but let's go over to page two paragraph 5.5

00:04:53 a full day of refresher training has been introduced half of which is delivered by the fire safety team role play has also been introduced the fsg reference information file has been reworked to complement the fsg training

00:05:05 reworked to complement the fsg training package

00:05:06 package lfb training came to audit control training team they recommended introducing role play on a number of call types it's also recommended to introduce supervisory training package of two weeks similar to the cm package

00:05:17 of two weeks similar to the cm package this would include a minerva type exercise

00:05:21 exercise now

00:05:22 now looking at those minutes you were aware were you that the board had been given assurances that a full day of refresher training had been introduced half of which was to be delivered by the fire safety team yes yes was that the

00:05:34 fire safety team yes yes was that the fsg training that was the fsg refresher training for all staff right can we just go back to the bottom of 5.4 then bottom of page one and look at paragraph

00:05:45 bottom of page one and look at paragraph 5.4 in light of what you've just told us um

00:05:49 um you say fsg training has been reviewed to ensure it fully aligns with 1093 subject to recommendations made to clg the minute doesn't draw the distinction

00:06:00 the minute doesn't draw the distinction between fsg training for new entrants and fsg training for for existing staff does it no

00:06:08 no no and therefore would you accept that the the at least on the basis of this minute the latino house board would fairly have understood

00:06:19 understood that all fsg training whether the new entrance

00:06:22 entrance or for existing staff had been fully had been reviewed to ensure that it fully aligns with 1093

00:06:32 possibly yes so when that was said do you remember whether anybody said to the latin house board that the new entrance training does not fully align with 1093

00:06:47 no i don't recall that i just think

00:06:53 we would have given an update to say that we had moved the new entrance training

00:06:57 training um later

00:06:59 um later in the

00:07:00 in the weeks um and then we would have talked we talked heavily about uh refresher training

00:07:08 so it it just would have been implied that we were talking about refresher training i think and maybe the minute doesn't cover that did you see this minute after it was uh circulated for

00:07:20 minute after it was uh circulated for approval

00:07:23 approval possibly

00:07:24 possibly i can't recall would you have had an opportunity to correct it before it was finalized given that you were one of the attendees at the meeting and had reported

00:07:35 and had reported uh yes i think we we both would have looked at it and changed it if we didn't feel that it had been a fair representation right when you looked at it did you not notice that there was no distinction drawn in

00:07:47 that there was no distinction drawn in paragraph 5.4 between fsg training for new entrants which did not fully align with 1093 and fsg training for existing staff which you say did

00:07:58 for existing staff which you say did no but maybe that's because the conversation in the in the meeting had been clear on that and just the minute isn't right

00:08:09 given that you say as you've told us just now that you didn't review the package the training package for new entrants but did for refresher training

00:08:18 training did anybody tell you before this meeting that the fsg training for new entrants con

00:08:24 con complied with fully aligned with 1093 no um but ost would have worked on both so they were working on the refresher training and so we would have seen that

00:08:36 training and so we would have seen that and i would have expected them to update the new entrance training they

00:08:42 they as a matter of course they spend the

00:08:46 the a number of weeks prior to any new entrance starting updating all the training and because obviously there's been a lot of changes since we have new entrants in so they spend a

00:08:57 have new entrants in so they spend a considerable amount of time prior to a new entrance to make sure that all the training aligns so maybe it was in a time when we didn't have any new entrants and and they would have updated

00:09:08 entrants and and they would have updated that as soon as we had a new call starting but

00:09:14 but sorry i was going to say i had no involvement in new entrance training you had no involvement in new entrance training nonetheless that we covered this to some extent yesterday

00:09:25 this to some extent yesterday did you make sure that those who were in charge of reviewing and designing the new entrance training at this point september 2010 or between march and

00:09:36 september 2010 or between march and september 2010 had the gap analysis and were told to ensure that the training did align fully with 1093

00:09:44 with 1093 no i

00:09:45 no i i wasn't responsible for training or new entrance delivery um and i can't imagine they wouldn't have had the gap analysis and and been part of our meetings where we shared

00:09:57 we shared what we had discovered from the lacanal world you can say you can't imagine it and i can understand why you say that but do you remember it no can i then turn to the latino house board meeting of the 8th of november

00:10:10 board meeting of the 8th of november 2010

00:10:11 2010 at lfb 3084032

00:10:18 again we can see that you were present along with scott hayward

00:10:25 and if you go to the foot of page 1 paragraph 4.6 action point 12 it says refresher training the bulk of this is complete training has been completed for any staff on sick etc when the original

00:10:37 staff on sick etc when the original training was carried out the computer-based training package for 2011 is now being formulated every other year the full package will be used with a refresher cvt course in between all training records have been transferred onto step

00:10:49 onto step so

00:10:51 so did this include the training that we looked at yesterday which you had reviewed or not

00:10:57 yes i believe sir and if we look at page five please we have the action plan and we can look at actions 11 and 12. we'll come to examine action 12 in a little bit more

00:11:09 examine action 12 in a little bit more detail later but if you go to page five which is the start of the action plan and then turn to page six eleven is fsg initial trainings you can see from the top of the screen

00:11:21 see from the top of the screen uh acsd

00:11:22 uh acsd 15 9 10 15 of september 2010 initial training on fsg is now provided later in induction training yes and then refresher training

00:11:34 and then refresher training 15

00:11:35 15 10 refresher training provided to all control staff consideration being given to how this is completed in future years it may include computer-based training and step records 8 11 10 that's the date of the meeting

00:11:48 8 11 10 that's the date of the meeting cbt package being formulated for alternate years all training records now transfer to step now at that point in time in respect to the initial training do we take it to mean that it had been

00:12:00 take it to mean that it had been completed

00:12:03 the initial refresher training the initial training no 11. that he had moved to later on in the training i believe so yes

00:12:14 training i believe so yes and in respect of uh

00:12:18 uh refresher training we can see what's uh been said

00:12:21 been said it says provided to all control staff does that mean that it had that it had by then been provided to all control staff

00:12:30 yes possibly i would imagine there's probably um an outstanding number because they were absent that we would needed to catch up on and but again i

00:12:41 needed to catch up on and but again i i wasn't involved in the rollout of refresher training at that time

00:12:46 now at that point in time do you know how training was meant to be

00:12:50 monitored no i don't i believe ost um kept a database and added uh the staff that attended sessions

00:13:00 sessions onto the database yes now you may remember we can see it if you like but in your gap analysis it's a page 23 of the document you had raised this point and said that

00:13:11 you had raised this point and said that fsg refresher training should be given to all control staff and monitor this via training database to ensure that it took place at consistent periods we can go to it if you like but do you remember that's what it said

00:13:24 do you remember that's what it said i don't recall the exact wording but i'll take your word for it well no let's let's let's look at it then lfb

00:13:31 then lfb four zeros four seven five zero page twenty three

00:13:42 uh and if you look at the right hand column second paragraph it says exactly that introduce fsg refresher training to all control staff and monitor this via training database to ensure this takes place at consistent periods

00:13:53 periods now on that basis when you conducted your review on the 2nd of july 2010 as we've seen from the emails did you also look at that did you look at monitoring via the database

00:14:04 via the database no i didn't did you look at it at any other time in 2010 no i didn't but i can imagine that would have been an action that scott hayward and lindsey turner would

00:14:15 scott hayward and lindsey turner would have dealt with right do you know why you didn't look at this

00:14:20 this in 2010 because i wasn't in charge of training or involved in its delivery who what was the plan for monitoring training via the training database at that point i don't know i um i was on

00:14:33 that point i don't know i um i was on the periphery of some discussions about step and transfer in it and i'm not sure if this refers to our internal database or

00:14:41 or to the step database i had minimal involvement in that all i know is from just overhearing some discussions i see and who was in charge i think scott hayward and lindsay turner

00:14:52 i think scott hayward and lindsay turner would have dealt with that it was an action from um sm kelly's report as well now let's look at a refresher training action 12 in a little bit more detail if we can um

00:15:03 little bit more detail if we can um we've just seen how it was reported to the latino board in november 2010 can we look at the latino assurance report please in 2018 at lfb404801

00:15:14 and go to page 14 right hand column action 12

00:15:20 action 12 as you can see and in red it says establish a recurring program of far survival guidance fsg refresher training in accordance with the national guidance for all control personnel

00:15:30 personnel and then it goes on the national guidance

00:15:34 guidance fire service secular 1093 training of fire control staff promotes continuation training which it describes as further continuation training should be carried out progressively with the aim of improving skills and knowledge gradually

00:15:46 improving skills and knowledge gradually the guidance also recommended that on watch refresher training should be given to all fire control staff on a systematic basis i.e it should be both scheduled and monitored national guidance recommends that refresher

00:15:57 guidance recommends that refresher training should be delivered no more than every 12 months first do you agree with that statement about the 1993 guidance yes

00:16:06 yes and let's look at it lfb403617 please page three

00:16:16 can we look at paragraph eleven at the top of your screen work watch refresher training it is recommended that on-watch refresher training should be given to all fire control staff on a systematic basis i.e

00:16:27 control staff on a systematic basis i.e it should be both scheduled and monitored the subject matter will depend on local circumstances but emphasis should be given to little used procedures or areas of weakness it is recommended that brigade training officers should be encouraged to

00:16:38 officers should be encouraged to participate in the training to augment the efforts of fire control officers do you agree that fsg would be a little used procedure given the infrequency of fsg calls received by control at least

00:16:50 fsg calls received by control at least as at 2010. i do you do would you agree that after lachenal it was plain that at the lfb it was certainly an area of weakness because of the experience at latino

00:17:01 latino yes

00:17:02 yes now in respect to fsg training if we look at your witness statement page 21 please paragraph 53

00:17:12 you say this

00:17:17 and this is the question how

00:17:19 how the refresher training was delivered in practice between 2011 and 2017 and you break it up into periods in your statement

00:17:27 statement your first period is refresher training 2010 to 2012. the details of fsg training and development of the training packages from 2010 to 2012 is set out above insofar as this information is within my

00:17:39 insofar as this information is within my knowledge

00:17:40 knowledge as noted in my response to question 11a there was a full review of fsg training following the gap analysis and update to policy number 539 and there was a complete rollout of fsg training

00:17:51 complete rollout of fsg training refresher training to all cros the intention was to roll this out as face-to-face training at first and then to deliver the training in the subsequent year via a cbt package this structure would then alternate between

00:18:03 structure would then alternate between one year in person and then one year via cbt

00:18:08 cbt and then you say you left to the cfoa in 2012 as we know would you agree that the latino house board was told that this was going to be the training package that was put in place as you've described it here yes yeah now if we look at the minutes

00:18:20 yes yeah now if we look at the minutes of the latin house board meeting of the 22nd of june 2010 so just stepping back a little bit into earlier into 2010 than where we were lfb3055208

00:18:38 this is a meeting of that date you can see that scott hayward was present

00:18:44 present but you were not present you can't see your name in the list you see that yes uh but you also don't send an apology is that

00:18:54 that is that because you were not at that stage a regular attendee at this meeting that might be entirely possible um i i don't know when i can't recall the date when

00:19:04 when uh scott hayward asked me to comment and become involved in the gap analysis so maybe this is prior to my joining the lack of board right well the gap analysis has been completed

00:19:15 completed at latest by april 2010 but as we've seen from earlier documents probably around or possibly around the february mark of that year and we've seen that you were present at the 15th of

00:19:27 you were present at the 15th of september 2010 latin house board meeting but either way you you can't explain your or can you explain your absence from this meeting no i i agree with you that maybe i wasn't a

00:19:38 i agree with you that maybe i wasn't a regular attendee right until september would you have read the minutes and say would you have did at that time was it your practice to have been provided with the minutes of the latin house board meetings no right

00:19:50 the latin house board meetings no right now uh

00:19:52 now uh was it scott hayward's practice to uh report to you what

00:19:58 what had happened at those meetings so far as concerns control no

00:20:05 no let's look at page 3 paragraph 8.7

00:20:11 and at 8.7 it says annual refresher training in line with fsc 1093 is being planned and the expectation is that all control staff will receive a bi-annual one-day refresher with the training team

00:20:23 one-day refresher with the training team and an on-watch package including an e-learning package from fire safety and confirmation of l of learning uh were you aware of that assurance being given to the board at that time

00:20:34 being given to the board at that time no i was just aware of the plan to undertake a day's refresher training every other year and and that would be complemented by a cbt package

00:20:45 complemented by a cbt package in the alternate years i see was it your understanding that it would be a full day every year at least every year

00:20:58 yes yes and do you know what was meant by the on watch package including the e-learning package from fire safety i believe that's what the cbt

00:21:10 i believe that's what the cbt package was and would that include a um

00:21:16 a um slideshow or presentation or powerpoint uh created by fire safety i believe so i i would only know that because i was asked to comment on the

00:21:29 was asked to comment on the formulation of the cbt packages when we were working on them in early 2012 so i believe they did include a presentation by fire safety

00:21:42 a presentation by fire safety designed by fire safety and delivered by fire safety no designed by fire safety and then to be done as part of the cbt e-learning package i see

00:21:55 now let's look at the minutes of the latin house board meeting on the 15th of september which we saw

00:22:01 saw just a few moments ago earlier in your evidence lfb3055192

00:22:11 and i've already read this to you at page two paragraph 5.5 it says a full day of refresher training has been introduced half of which is delivered by the fire safety team role

00:22:22 delivered by the fire safety team role play has also been introduced do you recall any discussion or comments about the refresher training at that meeting i don't know was the intention that the full day of refresher training would be delivered on an annual basis

00:22:35 delivered on an annual basis no it was always uh was always put to the board that it would be a full day every other year delivered by trainers and fire safety

00:22:47 delivered by trainers and fire safety and

00:22:48 and the cbt package would be rolled out in alternate years and the cb i thought you'd said earlier that the cbt package learning would also be a day is that right or is that no i

00:23:00 be a day is that right or is that no i apologize i think that was just that the cbt packages would be available and every other year control staff would undertake those

00:23:10 was it intended that the fire safety team would deliver half of the refresher training annually no that they would deliver when we uh

00:23:22 deliver when we uh had the refresher training the full day refresher training with our trainers they would attend to deliver their presentations and this cbt package every other year

00:23:33 and this cbt package every other year would just be the presentation that they designed

00:23:36 designed so just to be clear at this point the intention going forward was that there would be alternate years teacher-led training for a full day and cp

00:23:47 and cp cbt learning from the e-package in off years 2011 13 15. yes and on the on years in the even numbered years

00:23:58 in the even numbered years half

00:23:59 half of the teacher-led training would be delivered by the fire safety team yes so not just designed by the fire safety team but actually delivered by them yes yes thank you was it intended that role play would be

00:24:11 was it intended that role play would be practiced as part of the um the full day of refresher training on the in the even years yes

00:24:19 yes was it intended that role play would be practiced as part of the cbt at that stage no i don't believe so

00:24:28 let's then go to the latino control report of november 2012 at hom 401124

00:24:38 or actually let's look at the version at lfb404724

00:24:47 i either will do but i prefer the lfb reference please uh and if we go in that please to page 52

00:24:57 you can see recommendation four at the foot of the page for your screen and it says with regard to fire survival guidance training specifically this should be reviewed to more fully reflect national guidance

00:25:09 to more fully reflect national guidance and current fire safety advice and any specific issues arising from the gap analysis included in this report this should include a review of training four one recruits two control officers

00:25:20 four one recruits two control officers continuation straight refresher training three supervisors and if we turn over to page 53 action 4.2 completed it says a program of refresh

00:25:31 completed it says a program of refresh or stroke continuation training was implemented for all in post ce ceos between may and august 2010 continuation training is provided annually to all control staff over a two

00:25:42 annually to all control staff over a two year cycle with year one being a trainer-led course and your tubing a computer-based training course the training includes a role-play to ensure confirmation of learning was introduced into training

00:25:54 learning was introduced into training this allows all new and existing staff to experience a number of fsg call scenarios in a safe supportive environment b inputs from brigade fire safety officers covering aspects of building design and construction coupled with

00:26:06 design and construction coupled with current fire safety advice to educate ceos on fire behavior and building types c fsg training has been extended to encompass whole day training you see that yes um

00:26:18 you see that yes um now why did you think that cbt training uh was appropriate without role play given the national guidance recommended role play

00:26:30 guidance recommended role play uh i didn't if you're asking me we had some conversations i didn't believe cbt package cbt training and i wasn't keen

00:26:40 keen on using cbt packages did you express your lack of keenness to anybody yes i think in our group that everyone knew that i wasn't too keen on that

00:26:54 who was that scott and lindsay scott and lindsay what did you do can you remember to press the point to try to insist that role play should be included not only in

00:27:05 role play should be included not only in the teacher-led years but also in the cbt packages i'm not sure it was specific to role play i just didn't think that cbt packages would

00:27:15 would be that beneficial

00:27:20 so it wasn't specific for i didn't have the issue with the role play not being included in it it was just the cbt in general right

00:27:30 right are you able to explain why those who compiled this report

00:27:38 did not say that there was no role play in year two which was cbt no like i say in day one the report

00:27:50 in day one the report the lucknow house assurance report the one that i worked on didn't have any of these recommendations and actions completed so i didn't even see a copy to comment on them

00:28:02 comment on them so you can't explain how it came about that this report said what it said about role play no would you agree with me that it is inaccurate and misleading to that extent yes yes

00:28:15 uh let's um

00:28:18 look please at your witness statement slightly different point but let's go to your statement please page 18 paragraph 44

00:28:30 um you can say there um that uh in the

00:28:35 uh in the uh

00:28:38 four lines down from the top of the paragraph halfway through it says it was envisaged that going forward due to the difficulties of pulling control staff from the watch for training that this would be delivered in the subsequent year via cpd cbt package and then it

00:28:51 year via cpd cbt package and then it would alternate going forward between one year in person and then one year via cbt

00:28:55 cbt now i just want to ask you about what you mean by difficulties of pulling control staff from the watch for training

00:29:02 training what were those difficulties that you encountered when pulling control staff from the watch for training

00:29:09 training so just with oh this is a problem with fire control rooms nationally the the ability the the control rooms are staffed for uh dealing with operations on a day-to-day basis um and there's

00:29:21 on a day-to-day basis um and there's very little movement for them removing staff to undertake training and that was one of the the big proposals when we moved to the new shift

00:29:33 proposals when we moved to the new shift pattern that it gave us four hours with

00:29:38 with additional staff to be able to complete some of this training but that's a an inherent problem with all fire control rooms uh struggling to release resources

00:29:49 release resources into a training environment while operations continue because unlike fire stations as i'm sure you've heard we can't just go off the run to undertake this training

00:30:02 to undertake this training were you ever involved in a discussion about any alternative methods for training staff in a way that would alleviate those difficulties yes so as i've mentioned we explored different shift patterns to

00:30:14 we explored different shift patterns to allow that to happen and

00:30:18 when i was asked to put together a plan for the implementation of the new vision system we needed to provide control staff a number of

00:30:29 control staff a number of hours training on the new system and that was delivered using staff that came in off duty right

00:30:40 right so

00:30:41 so you could is this right pull together a plan when it came to the implementation of the new vision system and give control staff training

00:30:52 and give control staff training as it were off the run it's not not perhaps an appropriate expression for the control room but um not on duty that way yes yes well the vision system was

00:31:03 yes well the vision system was absolutely if they hadn't had training on the vision system they wouldn't have been any use to us because they wouldn't have known how to use the system so

00:31:13 so that was given as a priority to me when i returned from seafarer when they had the vision system training were they actually on duty or were they off duty uh i think uh because it was so delayed

00:31:25 i think uh because it was so delayed some then caught up off duty on duty and then we had to deliver more refresher training on on watch um but i think

00:31:34 think the majority of it in the initial between

00:31:37 between um

00:31:39 um march maybe 2015 onwards they were off watch

00:31:44 watch if it were possible as it was as you just explained to arrange shift patterns so as to be able to provide training on the vision system for control staff

00:31:55 for control staff off duty why wasn't it also possible to do the same thing for control staff by way of refresher training for fsg

00:32:07 what it could have been it could have been yes did you ever go to anybody scott heywood or any of your seniors

00:32:14 seniors and say to them that you wanted to have a plan please whereby your control room officers and indeed supervisors receive refresher

00:32:26 and indeed supervisors receive refresher training

00:32:27 training off duty in the same way that they had received it for the vision system not specifically but i would have always

00:32:38 not specifically but i would have always talked about

00:32:41 maintaining staffing levels or boosting staffing levels so we could achieve what we needed to achieve operations in the control room and

00:32:50 and then training isn't that a bit generic i mean a general complaint about staffing levels is not going to be as persuasive

00:33:01 is not going to be as persuasive as

00:33:02 as saying to your seniors that on an fsg call your control room staff are in effect the first responders and therefore refresher training for fsg specifically

00:33:13 specifically is a an absolute priority so please can i arrange things in the same way that we did for vision say that they get their refresher training

00:33:24 they get their refresher training so i think when i was in charge of training from 2015 and dealing with the vision mobilizing system after that i would have said that i don't think anyone can say that i didn't

00:33:36 don't think anyone can say that i didn't believe that fsg refresher training was a priority every year for control staff

00:33:45 and i take that point but did you did you actually make that argument the one i've just

00:33:50 i've just sketched out to you to scott hayward or any other senior person

00:33:58 when we first started it rolling out although i wasn't in charge of training yes i would have verbalised that what was their response

00:34:09 i think both lindsey and scott agreed and what did they do about it what did scott hayward do about it

00:34:19 i don't know i would imagine he would have spoken to ac brown or ac george did you chase him up did there come a time when you realized that nothing had been done

00:34:30 nothing had been done and say to him look i've asked you this some time ago my control room staff are not getting the refresher training on a regular basis so they should be getting it because of these difficulties you've identified here no like i say i wasn't

00:34:42 identified here no like i say i wasn't in charge of training at that time and i had been involved in the lack of board and i was also heavily involved in delivering the national coordination centre into control which involved its own amount of training and setup of a

00:34:55 own amount of training and setup of a new team so no i didn't pursue that now i want to ask you next about the teacher-led training sessions we saw that the ref that the refresher training

00:35:07 that the ref that the refresher training which was going to be trainer-led was envisaged to be a full day of training

00:35:11 training but we know that that was then reduced to a four-hour slot and and scott hayward has given us evidence about that uh

00:35:20 uh in in in essence between april 2011 and april 2014 it was this four hour overlap between

00:35:26 between the two shifts which meant that there could be staff released

00:35:31 released um for training while maintaining surface service delivery subject to what he called abstractions i've summarized his evidence both in his statement and and orally to us but is that right do you agree with that yes

00:35:43 that right do you agree with that yes we also know that in 2012 refresher training that was delivered during the four-hour training slot uh

00:35:50 uh uh

00:35:51 uh was was in that slot and only 61 of control staff had fsg training that year that's what scott hayward has said to us in his table in his first witness statement which we can look at if you need to

00:36:03 need to um now that means doesn't it that the change to the duration of the refresher training happened while you were still at control before your secondment to the cfoa in september 2012. yes yes yes

00:36:15 cfoa in september 2012. yes yes yes um can we look at your statement then please at page 20

00:36:21 uh where you say this but paragraph 52.1 releasing officers from the shift patterns for training is an issue for brigade control rooms across the country i understand that the reduction of the full-day training to a four-hour slot

00:36:33 full-day training to a four-hour slot was motivated by the difficulty of releasing officers from the shift pattern for a full day but i was not involved in this discussion or decision as i was at cfoa at the time the difficulty there it was that not one

00:36:45 the difficulty there it was that not one that was anticipated in 2010 and 2011 when the training was being designed and presented to the latin house board not that i can recall why is that

00:36:56 not that i can recall why is that because i think that the movement to the new shift pattern with the overlap with the four-hour training slot um

00:37:05 um we thought was thought sufficient but i can't recall there being any problems raising that

00:37:16 problems raising that as i understood it we were delivering a full day's training and we always would um

00:37:22 um what happened that wasn't anticipated that meant that the full day had to be reduced to four hours i don't know was the hope that there would be full attendance

00:37:33 attendance if the trainee was moved to a four-hour slot

00:37:39 i can't speak for this training but no i wouldn't have thought so it would be very rare to to be able to get a full attendance um because we had a number of factors as scott said already obstruction

00:37:50 scott said already obstruction and and we would training would always run catch-up sessions right for individuals let's then turn to your review of the refresher training that you did in

00:38:01 refresher training that you did in august 2011 so jumping forward a year to the latter part of 2011. um can we go to your witness statement please at paragraph 49

00:38:14 which you have on page 19 then it says this

00:38:17 this i was not directly involved in the development and implementation of the refresher trade fsg training until i returned from the cfoa in january 2015 as an som and therefore a

00:38:28 january 2015 as an som and therefore a member of the leadership team i may have provided comments in that capacity now can i ask you please to be shown lfb3028443

00:38:44 yeah you'll need i think both emails that we the main one i want to focus on is the second of the pair on the screen on page one there your your first email of the 29th of

00:38:55 your your first email of the 29th of august 2011 uh

00:38:59 uh forward fast survival training and i just should show you the first email but before we look at the main text can we scroll to the top and there you correct what you say a few

00:39:10 there you correct what you say a few days later and say i was looking at the fsg recommendations and have noticed that i forward you the wrong document so here is the original one and not the riff

00:39:18 riff so you'd obviously forwarded him something different from what you were commenting on in the first of those two emails can we go back to the email then and look at the email at the foot of page one and over onto page two

00:39:31 over onto page two you say this 29th of august 2011 to scott hayward hi scott i finally got around to reviewing the fsg training it may be a good exercise for us all to do as my review is pretty scathing i also

00:39:43 as my review is pretty scathing i also feel slightly embarrassed because last week avon frs rang and asked to view it which i approved as i assumed it was sound in its content despite the spelling and grammar issues the advice is not clear

00:39:54 is not clear i have attached comments on each powerpoint shall we generally discuss them at our weekly meeting if ron or reit saw what we had put out as training i think they would go nuts regards

00:40:05 i think they would go nuts regards joanne and that's on the next page um why were you reviewing the fsg training

00:40:15 probably because scott hayward had asked me to do it when you say i finally got around to reviewing quotes unquote the fsg training

00:40:25 training but first of all why do you say finally had there been a long gap between you're initially being asked to do to do so and and doing it i wouldn't imagine that long if i was asked to do something i probably would

00:40:37 asked to do something i probably would have completed it in a timely fashion right and why do you say reviewing in quotation marks there i can't recall this was for refresher fsg training

00:40:48 this was for refresher fsg training wasn't it yes yes do you know why you were only doing so at this point given your involvement much earlier such as the july the 2nd of july 2010 rollout

00:40:59 the 2nd of july 2010 rollout i don't

00:41:02 i don't by the time you came to review the fsg refresher had the crows already accessed it as part of their training in that year and by which i by it i mean the cbt package this being 2011.

00:41:14 package this being 2011. i don't believe the cbt package was ready in 2011. i can't be sure but i don't believe it was i think i we were working on it and i had been asked to comment as i did on these so it

00:41:27 asked to comment as i did on these so it might have been part of that

00:41:30 but i think we'd given some feedback when we'd attended the 2010 and

00:41:39 and i

00:41:40 i was obviously asked by scott to look at it again and i don't know why he asked me and and found that there were some additions that needed to be made yes and

00:41:51 and we've seen something of that with scott hayward about what it was that was delivered in 2010 let me ask the question slightly differently at this stage when you came to review the fsg refresher training how

00:42:04 to review the fsg refresher training how the cras already accessed what they were supposed to access by way of training given that this was a year in which there would be no trainer-led training

00:42:15 there would be no trainer-led training i'm not sure i looking at the day i always believed that we would undertake fsg training in the last

00:42:23 the last few months of the year so from september onwards so if this is august maybe not but i'm not sure you're not sure um before we look at your comments are you

00:42:34 before we look at your comments are you able to tell us what happened to the comments that you made in the document you attached

00:42:41 i would have sent them back to scott as he'd asked do you know whether the training was updated in response to the comments i should hope so yes i know but do you

00:42:52 i should hope so yes i know but do you remember whether it was no right

00:42:56 no right do you remember whether you checked to see if the training was updated in response to your comments

00:43:02 no i would have left that to scott to talk to lindsay about that

00:43:15 uh let's look at your comments which are attached to this email we find those in lfb3083547

00:43:31 comments on fsg

00:43:35 and you start with presentation three call handling techniques little value question mark the information provided could be considered dated with improved techniques tony dane

00:43:46 dated with improved techniques tony dane available it distracts from the training on the far survival techniques if we are going to cover call handling in this training we need to focus on proactive and reactive techniques with the

00:43:57 and reactive techniques with the verification being to take control of a call using a fully proactive technique now

00:44:04 now let's be clear and see what you looked at can we go please to lfb triple zero eight six two one nine

00:44:15 this is call handling techniques operational support team training and that's the first page of it if we scroll through it gently to page two

00:44:27 gently to page two the question i i'm asking you is this the training you reviewed here we have aim to examine the challenges encountered by control staff and dealing with emergency calls page three

00:44:38 three objectives

00:44:41 page four and there's the colored brain again and the four things we looked at yesterday

00:44:48 yesterday this was in fact the presentation we looked at yesterday or at least at least uh

00:44:53 uh very similar to it i say very similar it's the same i'm not sure what data was generated but it's the same presentation we looked at yesterday yes right but this is is this the one you reviewed i'm

00:45:04 this is is this the one you reviewed i'm not sure you're not sure no all right let's continue through it page for page six non-assertive assertive aggressive

00:45:16 non-assertive assertive aggressive communication styles page seven

00:45:20 uh answers

00:45:24 answers page eight transactional analysis eric byrne now eric bern who's he i think he's a

00:45:35 i think he's a psychologist that um created the parent-child adult interactions that can lfb control had always used

00:45:46 can lfb control had always used as how to

00:45:48 as how to handle calls

00:45:51 right

00:46:01 do you think looking at this document that this is what you were looking at or not

00:46:05 not i honestly i can't i can't be sure unless i

00:46:09 unless i attached

00:46:11 attached the email like before there may have been a draft presentation that scott had forwarded to me to ask me to look at rather than an extent one

00:46:22 an extent one right

00:46:24 we saw eric burn a moment ago you explained who he was on page four

00:46:31 is that related to your reference to tony dane

00:46:35 tony dane in other words tony dane being a more up-to-date theorist than eric byrne who i think was developing a theory on transactional analysis in the late 1950s i think so yes so that that would tend to indicate

00:46:46 yes so that that would tend to indicate wouldn't it that this was what you reviewed do you accept uh no i don't believe so i think they've as i said lfb have always used that transactional analysis parent child and adult

00:46:57 and adult in

00:46:58 in their documentation so it could have been an earlier one right

00:47:02 right i should just tell you the file name for this is sh 221 call handling techniques refresher presentation 2011. given that this is august 2011 again

00:47:13 given that this is august 2011 again does that not help us identify this is the document we reviewed now i have seen a number of training packages it could well be but i can't confirm that right then let's go to lfb triple zero

00:47:25 then let's go to lfb triple zero well let's go back to your comments actually first of all please lfb triple zero eight five three four seven

00:47:34 presentation two building concepts

00:47:43 lfb triple zero

00:47:48 eight three five four seven it's the document we were looking at just before which is your comments

00:47:55 yes presentation two building types who wrote the notes to accompany the powerpoint and then you make some comments on uh on the slides you see that yes

00:48:08 on the slides you see that yes and

00:48:09 and you make a point about slide 10 defend in place

00:48:16 and advice doesn't emphasis government guidelines and actions no visuals no mention that high-rise flats normally have alternative escape routes balconies leading to fire exits etc slide 15 in summary

00:48:28 slide 15 in summary uh if if there is a fire in occupancy dwelling is to leave this grim this needs grammatically changing so it reads right but we are beginning to use different terminology again can we simplify with advice caller get out and

00:48:40 simplify with advice caller get out and stay out

00:48:41 stay out there is no current safety advice in here and the high rise flats advice is wrong and contradicts the advice given on previous slides this needs replacing with current government fire safety advice for high-rise dwellings

00:48:52 advice for high-rise dwellings can we look to streamline this and add current fire safety advice and maybe a section on how firefighters tackle high-rise fires say staff are aware of the time and the process they're following i know we all know but some

00:49:03 following i know we all know but some staff do not hence telling callers they will be with you shortly etc see all that

00:49:08 that yes

00:49:09 yes did you think it was important to include details about what have happened at the lachnal house fire in the training

00:49:16 training um

00:49:18 um yes i think so we i don't think we see it though do you know if your uh

00:49:25 uh suggestions were ever taken up by wherever

00:49:28 wherever change

00:49:30 change i

00:49:31 i don't know no

00:49:35 we've never seen an updated version of this training presentation in any of our documents

00:49:42 we've got a date of modification in october 2014 at lfb3087979

00:49:51 where the content appears to be identical like you weren't of course at the lfb at that time so i don't need to take you to it but do you know whether your comments there about presentation

00:50:02 your comments there about presentation two building types were ever taken up and and

00:50:05 and and uh

00:50:07 uh affected by way of a revision i don't know you don't let's look at presentation 4 then fsg i have numerous suggestions on this i feel if we were to take this

00:50:18 i feel if we were to take this powerpoint to the latino board they would we would be severely criticized it fails to cover some issues we have already informed the board of dealt with it is neither positive grammatically correct and does not emphasize the

00:50:30 correct and does not emphasize the alternative escape routes it does not follow policy 539 in wording relating to our definition of an fsg call or current home office guidance in relation to remaining in your flat

00:50:42 why did you think that you would be severely criticized i think i then go on to list them in slide one and slide two those are all the

00:50:51 the that was just a general statement about the presentation and then i go on and and list the ones that i believe are contrary to what we've discovered in the gap analysis let's look at the slide lfb

00:51:03 let's look at the slide lfb 3086214

00:51:05 3086214 and let's have let's have it up at the same time as your your criticisms please

00:51:22 so keep the criticisms on the left-hand side and have the uh the fsg slideshow on the right as you can see it's called fire survival guidance

00:51:31 guidance just looking at the first page taking a moment to digest what it says miss smith do you think this was the presentation that you looked at for the purposes of your critique

00:51:43 purposes of your critique yes yes

00:51:44 yes yes and if we look at page one it says why are we doing this training have occurred where control staff have been faced with a caller who is trapped by fire and are under distressed condition a fatal fire in the west

00:51:55 condition a fatal fire in the west midlands highlighted that the control officer was unable to give the correct advice as they had not been given the training for such situations the home office decided that we should all get this training follow-up refresher training will be

00:52:06 follow-up refresher training will be completed on an annual basis now if we look at your comment on slide one

00:52:14 it says basically this says we are doing this because home office says so positively reword on our experiences now was this this was the same presentation i think as the one that had been developed in 2010 wasn't it

00:52:30 i i'm not i can't confirm that if i'd seen this in 2010 i'm sure i would have provided the same comments right to

00:52:39 right to everyone that i have here so whatever review you did in july 2010 are you telling us that the comments if this was the same slideshow at that stage you would have made the comments

00:52:50 stage you would have made the comments at that stage yes

00:52:53 yes yes

00:52:54 yes uh looking at slide one the reference to a fatal fire in the west midlands dates back to 1993 doesn't it it does were you surprised that the training document doesn't mention the latino house incident at all yes that's why i say

00:53:05 incident at all yes that's why i say let's positively reword on our experiences that's what i mean oh i see but even you don't mention latino there no it's just a note to

00:53:16 latino there no it's just a note to on my comments to discuss with the pom so i just would have thought that we needed to cover our experiences and what had happened at la cana right are you

00:53:28 cana right are you able to explain how it came about that your training department notwithstanding your gap analysis uh had

00:53:36 uh had for some 18 months or so been putting out training refresher training material to your cras uh which would which were as bad as this

00:53:48 uh which would which were as bad as this no again it wasn't my department um

00:53:52 um training wasn't my department but i can't explain that all i can say is that had i had i been shown that presentation i would have made the same comments that i had made here

00:54:03 had made here when reviewing it

00:54:11 now just pausing there because i'll come back to

00:54:17 back to both of those documents in due course so please if i may can we look at lfb 0086226

00:54:31 and i'm so sorry can i keep the slideshow on the screen remove the criticism and put lfb triple zero eight six two two six up i want to compare the two documents

00:54:46 yes and what we've got on the left hand screen now is

00:54:51 is uh the fsg training slide presentation on fire survival guidance that was created in 2012 and if we look at the two

00:55:02 i can't see any difference between them can you

00:55:06 can you no

00:55:07 no no

00:55:10 it appears that if it wasn't updated in response to your criticism was it it doesn't appear so now can you explain why

00:55:21 why no

00:55:24 when you made your criticisms did you follow them up

00:55:29 did you follow up to make sure that your points were taken on board and embedded into the presentations no i had given them to scott i recall on their email it says let's

00:55:41 recall on their email it says let's discuss them so i'm sure we would have all discussed them

00:55:46 them right i mean given your role at the time and and maybe that's the answer to this but you tell me given your role at the time did you not regard it as your responsibility to make sure

00:55:57 it as your responsibility to make sure that the control room officers were getting the training you thought they should be getting no my role at the time wasn't one of training and i had given the information

00:56:09 training and i had given the information as i was to comment on it by scott hayward after all we know that you didn't leave until september of 2012. do i take it from that that even though

00:56:21 do i take it from that that even though you didn't regard it as your role you nonetheless had the opportunity to chase it up and ask scott hey what have happened to your criticisms i don't think i didn't regard it as my role it wasn't my role right

00:56:33 wasn't my role right now let's go back then to page two of your comments on presentation four lfb triple zero eight three five four seven and let's

00:56:43 and let's remove the left hand document but keep the right hand document on the screen

00:56:50 screen and go to page 11 in the right hand document lfb 0086214 and page two as we have it on the screen uh

00:57:00 uh of your comments which is on presentation four and you're looking at uh page 11 where you say slide 11

00:57:11 where you say slide 11 states

00:57:12 states that due to the stressful situation that the caller is in they may not be able to think about an escape route i don't know where the evidence that this comes from and why staff are being informed of this if it is if it is to provide them with a

00:57:23 if it is if it is to provide them with a reason to ask callers for alternative escape routes then i can provide several examples of where we've not explored alternative escape routes with them with severe consequences and the training slide says

00:57:34 and the training slide says escape why can't the caller escape to safety what is preventing this far incapacitation smoke obstruction locked doors try to identify why the caller cannot get out due to the

00:57:45 caller cannot get out due to the stressful situation that the caller is in they may not be able to think about an escape route we've seen your comment about that uh what what in a nutshell was was your concern there

00:57:58 i can't recall maybe it was just that we weren't saying uh the message and being clear about get out and stay out initially or maybe that um we just wanted to focus on exploring

00:58:13 escaping with with the caller in the initial phase um i can't recall any more than that it looks on the face of it that you were concerned that cras would not have

00:58:25 concerned that cras would not have enough guidance given to them in the training about how sufficiently to explore alternative escape routes is that is that a fair reading at least of the documents possibly along with my comments along

00:58:37 possibly along with my comments along with your yes yes so do we take it from that that you were well aware of the need for a control room of operator to explore alternative escape routes with focal

00:58:50 focal yes yes

00:58:53 and if we uh look at the

00:58:58 the 2012 version of this again lfb triple zero eight six two two six at page ten

00:59:05 page ten put that up on the left hand side of the screen

00:59:08 screen in place of the critique if we can do that

00:59:16 we again see that they are identical you can see that again do you know why the document wasn't updated in 2012 but was recreated in 2012

00:59:28 but was recreated in 2012 notwithstanding your critique of this slide no i don't you can't

00:59:34 you can't can we then go back to your comments on page two lfb triple zero eight three five four seven page two uh and keep the right hand document on the screen please

00:59:45 document on the screen please on the right hand document go to page 14 this is slide 14.

00:59:53 slide 14 says uh reassure the caller inform a caller you are going to give them some advice that will help them to keep them as safe as possible until the ff's arrive explain firstly that you need to ask

01:00:04 explain firstly that you need to ask some questions reassuring the caller will be beneficial as people breathe more slowly when calm making them less susceptible to the effects of smoke calm them down swap names

01:00:16 calm them down swap names if you look at the left hand side of the screen your comment keep them safe as possible until ff arrive question mark we know this is a long time in high-rise buildings and therefore can update them on the fact that ff are at the building

01:00:28 on the fact that ff are at the building and they have the caller's information but suggest remove until ff arrive

01:00:36 if we look at the fsg training created in 2012

01:00:40 in 2012 so

01:00:41 so remove please the document on the left hand side of the screen and let's have lfb triple zero eight six two two six again this time page thirteen

01:00:56 uh you can see that the slides are identical again and the words until the ff's arrive remain in the slide again do you know why the 2012 version was not updated no

01:01:08 the 2012 version was not updated no in keeping with both of those slides the 2011 version and the 2012 version we can see that there's no warning as appears in the 1993 national guidance that providing reassurance may provide a false sense of security and may even be

01:01:21 false sense of security and may even be dangerous in some circumstances is that something you noticed at the time when you did your critique

01:01:28 uh if i hadn't listed it then maybe not i can't be sure no you didn't list it uh my question is why not why didn't you ask for that specifically to be

01:01:39 ask for that specifically to be incorporated into the training given as we've seen from the from 1093 paragraph two last sentence that that is exactly

01:01:46 exactly what the what cro should be told i just think i was asked to review the training document um

01:01:55 um and

01:01:55 and [Music]

01:01:56 [Music] again i probably didn't envisage that the comments wouldn't be adopted um and that they would be worked on i thought i knew fsg training was to be reviewed and a

01:02:08 fsg training was to be reviewed and a package created every year when they were delivering face-to-face training yes even though you were asked even though you didn't envision the the

01:02:20 even though you didn't envision the the comments wouldn't be adopted why not uh presumably you were working on the basis that they would be adopted otherwise you wouldn't have done the work well now i was asked by scott hayward to comment on the on the

01:02:31 hayward to comment on the on the training document which is what i did i didn't

01:02:34 didn't specifically then comment on them for it to follow through with the review they were handed back to scott and no doubt the ost team

01:02:47 scott and no doubt the ost team and they would have been developing the training package that they might have included it too i don't think it was solely down to me to comment and make sure the content was correct do you

01:02:59 make sure the content was correct do you remember why you did not put in a comment to the effect that the warning contained in the last sentence of paragraph 2 of 1093 which you were familiar with was not spelt out in the training package at

01:03:11 spelt out in the training package at this point no i don't recall now in none of these slides either those that you reviewed in so far as we can see in 2010 or 2011 or

01:03:22 so far as we can see in 2010 or 2011 or the 2012 versions is there any reference to fsc 54 or the need to assess the caller specifically the caller's age gender ethnicity or

01:03:33 or mental or physical ability is that something you picked up on at the time when you did your review in august 2011 no i don't believe so i think we we've

01:03:44 no i don't believe so i think we we've discussed 5404 and it's not adoption into lfb so no right

01:03:52 that when we worked on the gap analysis and

01:03:56 and the and all team that were reviewing the document i believe at the time were content that everything we needed was contained in 1093 including those in 5404

01:04:09 1093 including those in 5404 it's mentioned in the body of the document in 1093 so it was purely against 1093 we reviewed it i see so the absence in any of these slides

01:04:20 the absence in any of these slides about

01:04:21 about the need to assess the caller age gender ethnicity mental or physical ability

01:04:27 ability can be traced back to that original thinking i'm i'm not entirely sure but that is what the discussions were had at the time and i i wasn't asked to create the training i was just asked to comment on the

01:04:38 i was just asked to comment on the training and i've commented on these slides

01:04:41 slides the training in 2011 which is the odd year was validated with a role play exercise do you remember that no i don't you don't

01:04:49 you don't that's what scott hayward tells us at paragraph 75 but you don't recall that is that right i don't recall no you don't uh

01:04:56 don't uh as part of your review in august 2011 did you review the role play exercise no do you know why not because i

01:05:04 because i presume that when scott asked me to review the training package he would have sent me those training packages and i would have just reviewed them i don't believe they were involved role play right

01:05:15 involved role play right i'd like to look at an email run slightly earlier in 2011 with you may of that year can we look please at lfb for

01:05:24 for lfb

01:05:35 at the foot of 304-9577 one uh from chris sharp to lindsay turner copy to scott hayward and you as well as nikki o'shea subject fast survival refresher course lindsay we are continuing preparing the

01:05:47 lindsay we are continuing preparing the course

01:05:48 course and then if you go over the page she says one element is observation of two video clips of mock fire survival calls for control staff to assess the quality of the call taking will range from excellent to okay we will film each

01:06:01 excellent to okay we will film each video in the bca and make it available for staff to use when convenient now just pausing there what was your understanding of what was being suggested when you received this email

01:06:15 i think this is this in 2011 sorry i guess it's in may 20 yes so this is because the cbt packages weren't ready so i think they were looking at using a

01:06:27 so i think they were looking at using a powerpoint presentation and obviously some

01:06:30 some mock fire survival guidance calls um

01:06:33 um to provide refresher training to staff i see was this um

01:06:40 um proposal i suppose intended to change the active role play exercise to one where video clips were watched

01:06:51 uh it certainly looks like it but if it was in 2011 i think because we thought it was a cbt that role play wouldn't act if role play wouldn't be included

01:07:02 yes i see and then you reply to scott hayward and lindsey turner on the 27th of may we roll up to page one

01:07:10 one so two days later and you say hi scott and lindsay from a lachnall investigation point of view and legal i'm sure can we justify why we are not using the fsg program contained in

01:07:22 not using the fsg program contained in 1093 for a basis of refresher training we are certain that both hse and coroners will ask to see the measures we've put in place since lacking one area we are defending is as to why

01:07:33 one area we are defending is as to why we deviated from 1093 in the first place we've confirmed that we have altered this and have changed documentation to align with 1093 yet we are not following the recommended training package hence

01:07:44 the recommended training package hence my question

01:07:46 i'm sure chris and nikki have worked hard to create this package and i'm really not being critical just these you just know these questions will be asked of us if we can substantiate why we have

01:07:57 if we can substantiate why we have decided on two videos etc and we can documented why and the further benefits it provides our staff and we as managers and dave brown i suppose are happy that i am supportive of this

01:08:09 i am supportive of this so does that tell us that you were aware as of may 2011 that the role play exercise was going to be changed from an active role play to a passive one

01:08:22 uh i think yes i think i've responded to the email

01:08:26 the email uh from chris sharp with

01:08:30 with my thoughts on it yes and that that proposal would would be inconsistent with national guidance i think that's what i say yes it is and as such inconsistent with what you told

01:08:42 as such inconsistent with what you told the latino board yes and inconsistent with what the coroner would be told yes

01:08:50 did you get a response to your uh your points or i'd call them queries they're not really queries your observations i i i don't recall did you do anything at the time yourself

01:09:02 did you do anything at the time yourself given your involvement as we see from this email to try at least to ensure that the active role play was reinstated at least for the trainer-led years no i'd sent it to scott hayward and lindsey turner who were both delivering

01:09:14 lindsey turner who were both delivering the refresher training or lindsay was delivering the refresher training as child in charge of ost now scott hayward tells us in his second witness statement of paragraph 74

01:09:26 of paragraph 74 that there was feedback at this time that staff felt uncomfortable carrying out the role play element of the training

01:09:33 training that's what he recalls do you recall that

01:09:36 that i recall there being some discussion about staff and being uncomfortable with role play yes did you take any steps to remedy that problem rather than just allowing the role play to be made more passive

01:09:49 role play to be made more passive no like i say i i didn't really i wasn't really included in in the training or what was being undertaken in terms of role play

01:10:06 uh mr chairman i've come to uh a another topic but sub topic but i'd like to start it if i may it's a little early for the break yes that's right well find a convenient point

01:10:18 find a convenient point in it when you get to it then very good thank you

01:10:20 thank you i want to ask you about september 2011 high-rise reviews and the need for high-rise and fsg training as a new sub-topic

01:10:28 sub-topic now we've already covered your involvement with patrick utting uh uh in policy 790 known at that time as draft 155. now we may come back to that uh once

01:10:39 now we may come back to that uh once again but i just want to ask you about a report you drafted on the 4th of september 2011 shortly after your review of the fsg training at the end of august

01:10:50 nfb 3084292

01:11:01 now this is an email from you to scott hayward on the 4th of september 2011. in fact the same day is the corrective email we've just seen about your um your critique of the

01:11:13 about your um your critique of the slides

01:11:14 slides uh being rolled out by way of refresher training to cros and you say hi scott and lindsay last week we started to discuss fsg and the current training i had a further meeting

01:11:25 current training i had a further meeting with pat atting on wednesday and the policy appears to be close to completion which means we have a number of actions and changes to make before the policy goes live

01:11:33 goes live not including the mur changes attached as a brief and the draft policy as i'm not in attendance for the weekly meeting i think we need to come up with a plan

01:11:42 a plan now you say attached is a brief and the draft policy can we look at the brief you attached lfb triple zero eight four two nine three

01:11:57 uh it's a document entitled first survival guidance report and the first paragraph says draft policy 155 fire survival guidance is close to being implemented this will require some major changes in fsg

01:12:09 require some major changes in fsg procedure for brigade control first can you confirm that that was the document you attached or one of the documents you attached to your email we've just looked at i can't recall writing this but

01:12:22 i can't recall writing this but if i attached it to the email then i would imagine that would have been from me yes

01:12:27 me yes do you recall what the purpose of this document was uh no just as the email says it looks like i am letting scott lindsey know that policy 155 is near to completion

01:12:38 that policy 155 is near to completion and that it will influence

01:12:42 fsg training for control did anybody ask you to write this

01:12:49 not that i recall

01:12:52 given your role do you know why you volunteered it because i knew the detail and the content of policy the draft policy 155 that was going to be the fsg

01:13:04 that was going to be the fsg call training and probably just to update scott and lindsey as i wasn't in attendance at a meeting so i couldn't verbalize it um

01:13:12 um my comments on what needed to change and if we look at the second paragraph i've read the first to you it says this and i'll just take you through a little bit of this document these changes will need to be rolled out with training

01:13:24 need to be rolled out with training support tailored for both control officers and supervisors the current fsg refresher training has covered and they have four bullet points building types call handling techniques

01:13:35 call handling techniques four principles of fsg some supervisor training and you have comments in the paragraphs after each in the parentheses after each building types although no details on escape routes or national

01:13:46 details on escape routes or national fire safety advice call handling techniques does not cover reactive and proactive as stated in 1093 uh four principles of fsg does not include reassess it does include sorry

01:13:57 include reassess it does include sorry does include reassess quite right some supervisor training

01:14:03 training however draft policy 155 will call for a more robust approach policy 155 uses the agree policy 539 ecm definition of an fsg call and informs crews that

01:14:15 of an fsg call and informs crews that control will declare a fire survival guidance call in progress whilst this is not a change from the norm as it is often accompanied by details of the fsg caller's address we do pass information regarding

01:14:26 we do pass information regarding individuals stuck in properties with smoke in the corridor to assist with this we need to get across what is an fsg call and what isn't

01:14:38 isn't we've tried providing staff with an understanding of 1093 but we know from our high-rise reviews that staff are not seeking alternative escape with callers [Music]

01:14:48 [Music] staff are asking callers can they get out leading to confusion when the caller says no or not sure staff are still not assessing quotes on quotes the situation before providing

01:14:59 quotes the situation before providing fsg advice staff are not using the agreed statement for callers with no smoke heat or fire in their high-rise properties you are quotes you are usually safe to remain in your flat but if the situation changes

01:15:11 your flat but if the situation changes or you feel unsafe call us back close quotes this is not in the current training

01:15:16 training question mark staffers are still telling callers that the firefighters are coming to get them or the firefighters will come and check on you for this policy to work we will need to address all these

01:15:28 work we will need to address all these points

01:15:31 now you've told us that this was generated because of your role with pat hutting in developing policy 790.

01:15:42 pat hutting in developing policy 790. yes

01:15:43 yes yes and specifically your role from the control perspective in relation to that policy

01:15:48 policy yes yes

01:15:50 yes yes what were the high-rise reviews that you mentioned in your brief i think those are the ones that i carried out um

01:15:59 um since the the lacknow incident i see so not the cool coach reviews no no did these problems occur across the board with cros

01:16:10 board with cros these five bullet pointed problems uh i'm not sure um i provided the inquiry an example of some of the the themes i'd noticed but i

01:16:21 the themes i'd noticed but i didn't recall all of these right were you still were you concerned that there were still deficiencies in the way cross handled fsg calls

01:16:32 fsg calls even though by this time you are some uh 18 months after your gap analysis

01:16:39 analysis yes i must have been to document them and i think i say later that we need to make staff confident um

01:16:46 um as to what an fsg call is and how they handle it

01:16:55 had you addressed these concerns in any way at that time for example by approaching staff members and giving them feedback

01:17:03 i may have done separately through as i mentioned to the inquiry earlier about talking to the operations manager when i listen to calls

01:17:18 uh now this email well this document was sent by

01:17:21 sent by you to scott hayward and lindsey turner on the fourth of september do you remember whether you took it further and took these concerns for example to ac dave brown

01:17:32 i don't i think because i wasn't there at the meeting that we were clearly having that i've provided these comments um

01:17:40 um and that might have been generated off the back of re knowing what was in policy 155 and previously reviewing the training material did you do anything to seek to

01:17:53 did you do anything to seek to bring to each cra's attention these five or perhaps six points or problems

01:18:08 so in terms of addressing them um yes i thought that's what i'd done by the comments in there in terms that that should influence

01:18:19 should influence training

01:18:20 training and

01:18:21 and and we should make sure that control staff are confident and again my feedback with individual oms to control officers about how they were progressing

01:18:34 about how they were progressing yes do you remember speaking to individual cros in the control room about any of these particular issues rather than taking it to lindsay turner and scott hayward actually going to the control

01:18:45 hayward actually going to the control room offices and telling them what you say here not specifically but i may have in conversations when we we'd spoken about them or alternatively when

01:18:56 them or alternatively when they had achieved all um those points and we had reviewed an fsg call that was very positive with a successful outcome

01:19:09 successful outcome i might have also shared it at brigade control management meeting as well to the operations managers

01:19:19 and what in what response were you given when you raised these matters at brigade control management meetings as you think you might have done i think there would have been discussion

01:19:31 i think there would have been discussion about how

01:19:32 about how a as a control room that could be achieved now um we're i'm going to come back to this report uh after the break but i think this is now a convenient moment for the break is it right thank you very

01:19:45 for the break is it right thank you very much

01:19:46 much all right well now we'll have our morning break at that point then this face we'll come back please at 20 to 12

01:19:53 20 to 12 and

01:19:54 and as before please don't speak to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it when you're out of the room all right thank you sir thank you very much

01:20:11 thank you mr twenty to twelve please

01:41:25 would you ask for swiss to come back in please

01:41:40 all right swiss are you ready to carry on then thank you yes mr miller chairman thank you can we go back please to the report we were on at the break which is lfb3084293

01:41:52 and if you look at page two in the third paragraph there you say

01:41:58 it is the high-rise incidents that appear to cause difficulty and misunderstanding to ensure these points are met i recommend and then there's a long list of bullet points

01:42:09 of bullet points training is on high-rise incidents only we can mention domestic premises in the pr attendance but focus is on high-rise flats

01:42:16 flats training discusses the difference between an fsg call and not and we assess on this training provides confidence to staff to ask callers to seek alternative escape route cover building design and that

01:42:28 route cover building design and that high-rise flats usually have more than one escape route and the corridors lead to protected stairwells how operationally they deal with a high-rise fire and how that means that crews are not able to check on residents

01:42:40 crews are not able to check on residents and will not undertake this role as a priority so control should not rely on this or inform the caller that this will happen

01:42:47 happen training covers the role of the radio operator and the language they use staff are also shown the fsg pads available for firefighters to complete on route and the information they are after supervisors understand the priority to

01:42:59 supervisors understand the priority to dedicate a sup as a supervisor to a command unit to pass up to date information on multi-fsg additional support mechanisms such as access to css etc provided to them

01:43:12 access to css etc provided to them future developments fsg notepad for control similar to operational crews

01:43:19 and then you say at the bottom we also need to decide who is developing the training strategy and who will deliver the training we've talked about discussing fsg with ost and the oms to

01:43:30 discussing fsg with ost and the oms to get across what we are trying to achieve we could provide them with the issues from lachenal but i'm not sure if the board would approve and our report is still not cleared and cannot be distributed i can get some recordings to

01:43:41 distributed i can get some recordings to provide some evidence of what we are still doing wrong and have an open discussion as this has taken such a long time to bring in and we've had so and we've had involvement from in this from the start

01:43:52 the start i know if it starts to go wrong we will be asked why ever why ever time and have to report this to the board this may ask questions about our

01:44:04 this may ask questions about our training and that we are not following our own policies now there's a lot in that material there but

01:44:12 but first did you why did you come to the conclusion that it was high-rise incidents that caused difficulty and misunderstanding in particular i can't recall

01:44:23 i can't recall why was further training needed when fsg training had already been carried out i think i've just listed my observations there right so at this stage in addition to your critique we saw of the 29th of august

01:44:36 critique we saw of the 29th of august a week later or so here is a pretty blistering attack on fsg call handling

01:44:44 handling and and the and what is being omitted from the training on the training yes yes

01:44:54 did you discuss your recommendations contained in this document with scott hayward and lindsey turner having sent them this document uh well

01:45:02 uh well i would imagine i would have or they would have come back to me if they'd had any questions but i don't recall specifically yeah what was the outcome do you know

01:45:13 yeah what was the outcome do you know no i don't i don't know whether they made their own decisions about not

01:45:19 about not following my recommendations and guidance or not i don't know were any steps taken so far as you are aware to implement any of the recommendations by way of changing the training program in any respect

01:45:30 training program in any respect no

01:45:31 no as i said i've just commented on it and made some recommendations from my experience to scott and lindsay are you able to explain why so far as

01:45:44 are you able to explain why so far as you know none of these observations points of criticism were reflected in any amended training after this no

01:45:59 did you decide i say you did you and scott howard and lindsey turner decide who was to develop the training strategy and who was to develop to deliver the training itself

01:46:10 i would imagine we did because the training continued um with ost delivering it and lindsey turner in charge of training had scott asked me to take over training

01:46:23 had scott asked me to take over training are you able to explain why in september 2011

01:46:28 2011 there were still these question marks about what i think you would accept are fairly rudimentary aspects of delivering training to control room operators no as i said my expectation would have

01:46:40 no as i said my expectation would have been that they would have been included in the training yes and are you able to explain explain why as at that date some two and a quarter years on from the latino

01:46:52 latino incident

01:46:53 incident these question marks about control room fsg call handling still remained no

01:47:04 in the last paragraph i've read to you uh you uh you see what is said there uh we've talked about if we just go back a page we can see it

01:47:18 in the penultimate paragraph i'm sorry you say we've talked about discussing fsg with ost etc uh

01:47:25 uh why did you want to provide ost and oms the issues from lacanal well because i think that gave him a sound reasoning of why

01:47:36 sound reasoning of why the training needed to be adjusted with all the points i've listed above do you know why that hadn't been done already as part of the 2010 training or the 2011 training

01:47:47 the 2011 training no i don't but i do get the the feeling when i refer to the board in those emails that actually um i think it it

01:47:58 it they didn't feel that it would be beneficial to share it with control staff and i say they the lachenal team that we were working with um until

01:48:09 with um until the report was cleared

01:48:13 you refer to ost and the oms why not the cross

01:48:19 cross i think

01:48:20 i think ost and the oms that we met with on a on a regular basis um to share and discuss the information and the issues from lacking with them and

01:48:31 the issues from lacking with them and they could distribute that down to the watches

01:48:43 is your reference in this paragraph to to the board the lack of house board i believe so yes why were you not sure if the lack of house board would approve of you

01:48:54 house board would approve of you educating the ost and oms let alone cros on the lessons from lachen like i say it's just because the report clearly wasn't cleared and

01:49:05 and so i was just raising if it could be distributed or not i think this refers to the report that i um

01:49:15 um contributed to um

01:49:19 um but the actual lack of report that was published um was amended so maybe they didn't want it distributed why would that be not sure and it reads on the face of it that

01:49:31 and it reads on the face of it that you're offering to provide the board

01:49:34 the board sorry provide ost and the oms with the issues from lachnal but i'm not sure if the board would approve what

01:49:42 what would the board disapprove of by way of provision to the ost and the oms of the issues from lachnal i

01:49:52 i i can't recall i just recall some vague recollections that um the lack of report until it was completed

01:50:03 until it was completed and

01:50:04 and we went to share it but that is just a vague recollection were your concerns as reflected in this document this brief

01:50:15 as reflected in this document this brief ever taken to the latin house board uh i don't believe so what sorry i'm not sure of the date that i broke this report this was the 4th of september

01:50:26 september 2011. this is at least at least it's i don't believe so that email of that date you don't believe say why not you know why not no as far as i was concerned i'd

01:50:38 no as far as i was concerned i'd made some recommendations following a review of the training uh with policy 155 going live and and that had gone to the appropriate line

01:50:50 management i don't think we've ever seen any

01:50:54 any latino house board minutes which reflect even in general terms the concerns that you've expressed in this document are you able from your own perspective to explain why that is

01:51:06 to explain why that is no

01:51:07 no and i then turned to other changes to the training specifically fso input and its loss

01:51:16 loss now we saw earlier and we can go back to it if you like the assurances were provided to the latino house board in 2010 and we've seen the july september and november minutes that fsg training was going to be

01:51:28 that fsg training was going to be created and delivered in part by fire safety officers at least during the live years yes yes yes let's look at the decision that was made whereby fire safety officers were not involved in

01:51:40 safety officers were not involved in delivering fsg refresher training annually after 2010. that's i want to go with this

01:51:45 with this can we go to your witness statement please at page 20.

01:51:50 and on page 20 you can see paragraph 52.2 at the foot of the screen and it says i was not involved in this decision regarding the involvement of securing fire safety officers to attend the training as i was in the technical team

01:52:02 training as i was in the technical team of ost

01:52:05 of ost so

01:52:06 so at first is it right that the decision to drop the involvement of fire safety officers attending the training in the the teacher-led years happened before you were succumbed to the cfoa

01:52:19 i believe so i i recall that we were struggling to get fire safety officers to attend but that's just in a general conversation we we would have had together all three of

01:52:30 we would have had together all three of us in the the management team all three of you being you scott haywood and lindsay yes let's go to lfb triple zero five eight two five six

01:52:47 uh if you go to page one at the bottom of page one you can see an email header from chris sharp to you 22nd february 2012 and if we turn to page two we can

01:52:58 2012 and if we turn to page two we can see the the email itself hi joanne and everyone you can see also that it's copied to scott hayward and lindsey turner as well as m-e-r-o-s-t

01:53:09 m-e-r-o-s-t hi joanne and everyone all the material we used in the day one course has been translated into the computer-based training packages for easy access to control staff is it proposed that we use this same material for a one-day course

01:53:22 this same material for a one-day course if so this would be counterproductive in my opinion by rehashing the same material for both the one day course and the year in between to ensure that we give quality and meaningful training we would need to keep the training fresh we

01:53:33 would need to keep the training fresh we have also lost the fire safety input as their department is being subsumed from the end of march can you guide me as to when you would like the one day's training to take place and what subject matter you would

01:53:44 place and what subject matter you would require us to cover and you can see if you go back up to page one please you email lindsay turner and scott

01:53:55 you email lindsay turner and scott hayward

01:54:00 in two different well you you email them as separate recipients in other words they are the emails to both of them 25th of february 2012.

01:54:09 2012. hi scott and lindsay before we have even started our annual refresher training we are already being told we've lost fire safety input into a course which 1093 specifies should be in the course

01:54:20 the course part of the issues arising from lachnal is that we had no fire safety input and therefore did not provide staff with correct and relevant advice my key issue to chris was that we have no need to publish the cbt immediately

01:54:31 no need to publish the cbt immediately as we can roll this out as part of the training this year however it needs to go with fire safety input not cbt and role play

01:54:40 role play are we all in agreement that our full one-day refresher on fsg is not cbt and is interactive and if so can this be explained to chris and ost as the way we need to proceed

01:54:52 now two things first you can see this is february 2012 that was an evening year and at that stage the fs the refresher training for that year was going to be trainer led including fsg

01:55:04 going to be trainer led including fsg yes yes yes and secondly just to clarify when you were told by chris sharp that you had lost the fire safety input in the email i've just shown you uh of the 22nd of uh february what did

01:55:16 uh of the 22nd of uh february what did you understand her to mean by that that fast safety wouldn't be delivering the elements of the training packages

01:55:27 and you regarded that as am i right looking at this email a very important element in the teacher-led training

01:55:35 training i was conscious that we had committed to the lack on board that we would

01:55:41 we would ensure that fire safety had input into fsg training and then if we go to the top of the screen

01:55:49 screen we can see the email from scott hayward to you and lindsey turner by way of his own response and he says this it is essential that there is a distinction between the one

01:56:01 there is a distinction between the one day full course and the interim refresher has agreed on day one i do not believe we have lost our safety we just need to follow through on what changes they are making in their department and ensure that our training is included in the transition lindsay can you

01:56:13 the transition lindsay can you communicate this to chris please and ensure that the one day course is interactive with fs input and role play uh

01:56:23 uh first did you agree with scott hayward yes you agree with the sentiments that he and his request in there yes yes

01:56:31 yes yes did you have a discussion with him about this topic or problem at this point no

01:56:38 no i just made my comments clear on response to chris's email and wanted to reiterate that it was important fire safety delivered the training presentations

01:56:53 were any further efforts as suggested by scott hayward's email to get for our safety to provide input into the fsg training made

01:57:02 i believe so just in terms of conversations that scott and lindsay would have taken that with fire safety

01:57:13 were you aware that assistant commissioner steve chirek and assistant commissioner dave brown had decided that fire safety officers would not

01:57:24 that fire safety officers would not deliver

01:57:25 deliver fsg refresher training no

01:57:29 no you weren't no

01:57:35 at the time did you consider yourself making any representations to them or anybody else about reintroducing their input into refresher training no i didn't know that they made that decision

01:57:46 decision presumably that's why lindsay and scott had so much difficulty getting fire safety to attend now you left in september 2012 do you know whether the one-day

01:57:58 2012 do you know whether the one-day teacher-led refresher training for cras had been carried out by that stage

01:58:04 stage for 2012.

01:58:06 for 2012. um

01:58:07 um i don't believe so just in terms of we had been planning all of 2012 for the olympics so i would imagine that would have been scheduled post the olympics

01:58:18 post the olympics and that corresponds with us delivering

01:58:23 fsg training in the latter part of the year from september onwards yes

01:58:30 yes i then want to turn to what the training looked like when you came back

01:58:34 came back from the cfoa in january 2015 when i think you were in charge as you told us on the first day of your evidence you were in charge of training yes yes

01:58:46 yes yes and

01:58:46 and i want to start in that period with what you found out about the assurances can we start with paragraph 56 of your witness statement on page 22

01:59:02 and you say

01:59:07 in the third line upon my return from cfoa in 2015 i asked for a list of which control members had fsg training outstanding i also requested access to babcock cbt packages in order to update

01:59:19 babcock cbt packages in order to update them as they referred to the older mobilizing system procad and not vision as they would have been out of date when vision was rolled out who did you ask for that list do you

01:59:30 who did you ask for that list do you remember

01:59:31 remember uh it would have been ost do you remember who in ost uh i probably would have emailed the general

01:59:38 general inbox that they had so they all would have received a copy and someone would have responded to me what prompted you to ask for that list uh

01:59:48 uh i can't recall given that control was outside the scope of lfb

01:59:53 of lfb um well the lfb bad cop contract what were you hoping to gain by seeing the cpts

01:59:59 cpts the the cbt packages needed reviewing with a change of mobilizing system because they can change some technical detail in them and that we were probably looking

02:00:10 that we were probably looking to roll out training on those cbt packages it was an odd year so that's probably when i started to look at that and

02:00:20 and what were you told in response to your request for the list

02:00:26 i probably would have been given a number of staff that had fsg training outstanding do you know who gave you that list no i don't

02:00:36 did you ask at that time for an update on fsg training and its content either from scott hayward or your predecessor temporary predecessor in the post vic bagnol no i think that's probably what

02:00:47 no i think that's probably what generated me to ask for for a list of those outstanding members uh well um you asked for a list of which control members had fsg training

02:00:59 which control members had fsg training outstanding and a copy of the cbt packages

02:01:02 packages to in order to update them did you ask for an update on fsg training more generally either from scott hayward or vic bagnol not that i can recall right

02:01:15 i just want to understand what you mean when you say you asked for a copy of babcock's cbt packages

02:01:21 packages in order to update them were you asking well what were you asking for we were asking for the cbt packages so we could make some amendments to them

02:01:35 we could make some amendments to them what state had the cbt packages for control room operators reached at the time you left for the cfoa in september 2012

02:01:45 2012 so i could recall them being designed and i can recall viewing some of them and adding some comment to the content

02:01:57 adding some comment to the content of some of them

02:02:06 do you remember which you amended or added comments to i don't know um i can probably just the ones that had been created at that time

02:02:19 was that a process you you undertook after august september 2011 and the provision of your comments on

02:02:27 on the

02:02:28 the refresher training packages we've seen in

02:02:31 in on the 29th of august and your comments about this part of the brief on policy 790 on the 4th of september 2011. was it after that that you made comments on the training the

02:02:42 you made comments on the training the cbt training packages i'm not sure i just remember looking at them on a laptop and adding some comment to the packages that were on the laptop

02:02:53 the packages that were on the laptop electronically do you even roughly do you remember how how long

02:02:58 how long before you left for the cfoa you did that

02:03:02 that uh i would have said it was at the same year in 2012 but i can't be sure and what prompted you to do that yeah i would have been i'm assuming i would have been asked by

02:03:14 i'm assuming i would have been asked by scott hayward we looked at a number of the presentations this morning do you remember whether any of those presentations were presentations on which you made comments during 2012 no i think the relating to the cbt it

02:03:27 no i think the relating to the cbt it was an online package that was being designed to be more interactive with yes no and and right and wrong questions and buttons so no it was none of the packages i saw this morning

02:03:38 packages i saw this morning right it wasn't the the four packages you or presentations on which you made comment um

02:03:47 what prompted you to think you might need to update the cbt packages

02:03:54 because we were getting a new mobilising system that worked significantly different to the old one so your

02:04:01 so your desire to update the cbt packages was from a

02:04:04 from a i could put it to a mechanical point of view to enable access to them to make them compatible with the new vision system as opposed to examining the substantive content yes because i think in

02:04:15 in 2015 we would have looked to roll out the cbt packages for control staff as it was an odd year and wanted it to be

02:04:25 be updated

02:04:30 in answer to the question um

02:04:34 um for the list of control members without with fsg training outstanding uh

02:04:41 were you what were you told i don't recall were you aware that in 2012 68 of staff undertook fsg training no were you aware

02:04:52 undertook fsg training no were you aware that in 2013 that number collapsed to only some 28 of staff having undertaken any kind of fsg training

02:05:00 training no

02:05:01 no were you aware that in 2014 that number rose by only percent to 29 no you weren't told any of that no

02:05:17 why did you think when you arrived back from the cfoa in 2015 there would be any control members with fsg training outstanding which would prompt your request

02:05:26 request just because there would have been some control members that hadn't caught up on refresher training because they had been absent so

02:05:35 so i would have just looked to start of that because i knew that we had committed to delivering fsg refresher training annually was there not a document that you could

02:05:46 was there not a document that you could have looked at that time january 2015 to tell you

02:05:51 tell you who had undertaken refresher training specifically fsg refresher training in the years you were away

02:05:59 away [Music]

02:06:01 [Music] there may have been that i could have looked at kept on the ost

02:06:07 ost training drive but

02:06:10 but i just

02:06:11 i just believe i asked them to provide me a list did you have a handover

02:06:17 handover from vic bagnall when you came back in january 2015

02:06:23 uh yes in terms of uh what he was pursuing with

02:06:31 with his current workloads and the background of vision

02:06:37 vision the the new mobilising system and what they had prepared already did you

02:06:42 did you have a discussion with him or with scott hayward about the

02:06:48 the numbers of control room staff who had

02:06:52 who had received or hadn't received fsg refresher training during the years 2013 and 14.

02:06:58 and 14. no and indeed 2012 in the last quarter of that year no no no why is that can i just ask you did you receive a list of those who had fsg training outstanding as far as you can

02:07:10 training outstanding as far as you can remember i i can't see why i wouldn't i can't recall the list but i i would imagine they would have provided me if i'd asked for them well i asked the question because

02:07:22 i asked the question because as mr militz reminded you only just over a quarter of the staff did their training or did training in 2013 and 2014 yes which means there ought to have

02:07:33 2014 yes which means there ought to have been a lot of names on the list a lot of names

02:07:37 names did that strike you did you recall that being the case i don't i don't recall getting any a long list of names you're right i don't know whether they just provided it for 2015 and that would have

02:07:48 provided it for 2015 and that would have included some new entrance training i can't recall sorry sorry i interrupted the question just a minute do you go back to it i think we've got a similar question to the one you

02:07:59 similar question to the one you you were asking mr chairman uh let me just go back to the question

02:08:05 yes let me try it again uh you say you didn't have a discussion with uh vic bagel or scott hayward about the numbers of control room staff who had either received or not received

02:08:17 who had either received or not received fsg refresher training during the years 2013 and 2014. no not that correctly you don't recall that at all events do you remember being satisfied that is that the numbers

02:08:30 satisfied that is that the numbers of

02:08:31 of those people with uh all those control room officers with fsg refresher training outstanding was reasonable and adequate and satisfactory

02:08:44 i don't recall i don't

02:08:48 i don't believe i would have thought that had it been a long list of with

02:08:54 with 75 of staff not received training that i wouldn't have immediately asked questions on that

02:09:03 but you can't remember what figures you weren't given no

02:09:07 turning to the content of the training what were you told were you told anything no i i don't believe i was told anything about the content of the training

02:09:20 about the content of the training did you become aware then or later perhaps that in 2012 staff members only took

02:09:26 took undertook four hours of fsg training instead of the full day as envisaged

02:09:33 yes i think i was aware of that right because because that happened it

02:09:38 it was proposed i think before you left is that

02:09:40 that yes

02:09:41 yes yes i think i was aware of that because of the change to the short shift in the overlapping four hours

02:09:47 hours in 2011 yes right were you told or did you discover that the role play element of the assessment process became a passive exercise in 2012

02:09:56 2012 requiring staff only to listen to fsg calls and discuss the positive and negative aspects of each rather than interactive on a simulated live call no you weren't

02:10:07 you weren't given that you made a particular point in 2011 of requesting active fsg role play

02:10:13 play and given also as we've seen that it was part of national guidance were you surprised

02:10:17 surprised that the role play element had been curtailed in that way yes

02:10:22 yes did you do anything to raise the fact that the role play had been curtailed in that way with scott hayward or anybody else yes i think through my emails and my comments that i've made i did did you seek to reinstate it

02:10:36 probably it would be unlike me not to right you say there were emails about this but let's see how we go with that were you aware that in 2013 and 2014

02:10:47 were you aware that in 2013 and 2014 your years of absence that the training appears to have been limited to cras accessing and reviewing presentations such as the fsg operators riff and being involved in command unit training sessions

02:10:59 command unit training sessions no

02:11:01 no did you ever find out if the staff had been able to access the cbt training package itself in in the years 2012 to 15. certainly 2013 which was a cbt year

02:11:14 certainly 2013 which was a cbt year no

02:11:16 now scott hayward told us in his evidence that he could not confirm himself if any of those cbt training packages were delivered to cras the inquiry has seen no evidence of it

02:11:27 inquiry has seen no evidence of it can you help i think in again because of uh in 2015 with the the disruption that the new mobilising system um created

02:11:38 um created uh that again in 2016 we tried very hard to roll out cbt refresher training to all control staff did there come a time after january 2015

02:11:49 did there come a time after january 2015 when you came to learn that in 2013 there'd be no cbt delivered to training delivered by way of training to our two control room staff there may have when i explored trying to get

02:12:01 explored trying to get the cbt packages live for all control staff in in 2016. yes

02:12:07 yes and did you ever find out why it was that fsg training had not been delivered at least in those years 20

02:12:14 20 late 2012 13 and 14 as had been planned and promised to the coroner after la canal no

02:12:23 did you ever ask

02:12:27 no why not

02:12:32 because i've already explained i was away

02:12:35 away on a second and there were responsible people undertaking that role um with continuity with scott who was in charge of control

02:12:46 scott who was in charge of control and i would have expected that to be delivered

02:12:52 and nobody did fsg training in 2014 and 2015 at all no because of the vision problems well yes there was no mobilising system

02:13:03 well yes there was no mobilising system which was stable enough to you to do any undertake any training apart from the vision training

02:13:19 looking at the matter generally when you came back from the cfoa in january 2015 and thinking back to the comments you'd made on the training some years before in the august and september of 2011

02:13:34 in the august and september of 2011 given the fact that by january 2015 you were taking on a new role and had become head of training did you do an exercise yourself to make sure

02:13:45 sure that

02:13:46 that as at january 15 all of your concerns expressed in august and september 2011 had been properly embedded in the training being

02:13:58 properly embedded in the training being given to cras whether new entrant or refresher

02:14:02 refresher no as i've said already i would have expected

02:14:06 expected when i sent my comments to both the head of control and to the training manager that those comments had been

02:14:15 been taken and discussed and either agreed or put into the training so no and i i wouldn't describe my role as head of training i was in charge of the ost team which who delivered training indeed

02:14:27 which who delivered training indeed and as somebody in charge of the ost team who delivered training was it not a matter of importance to you just to satisfy yourself that the concerns that

02:14:39 satisfy yourself that the concerns that you had expressed so transiently in the two documents we saw in august and september 2011 had been properly reflected

02:14:48 reflected in the training by then being delivered to cross i think the priority was to ensure that london fire brigade had a fit

02:14:59 fit uh mobilizing system which when we started to look at it in very early 2015 it didn't have so

02:15:08 so the focus and the priority was in ensuring that london fabricate could mobilize fire engines so i didn't undertake that review now

02:15:20 was a decision made at any point by you or anybody else uh more senior to you that notwithstanding your comments and trenchant criticisms as we've seen

02:15:33 and trenchant criticisms as we've seen the training wouldn't be updated well there must have been because it wasn't updated can you tell us about that decision no when it was made who made it why it

02:15:44 no when it was made who made it why it was made

02:15:45 was made no i'm surprised that it wasn't and comments weren't my comments weren't taken on board and the training wasn't amended

02:15:55 now let's look a little bit more closely at the fsg training from january 2015 until 2017 when the grenfell tower fire occurred

02:16:04 occurred you if we go to paragraph 60 of your statement you say page 23

02:16:12 and this is under the question what is meant i'm so sorry if we could scroll down we can see the question or rather scroll up there it is 12d what is meant by the

02:16:23 there it is 12d what is meant by the statement in the assurance review that fsg refresher training was not carried out consistently on an annual basis are you able to state what refresher training was carried out in which years and by how many members of controlled

02:16:34 and by how many members of controlled staff

02:16:36 staff uh and uh you say in power 59 that you can't speak to whether it was rolled out consistently on an annual basis and then at 60 you say this as noted elsewhere in this statement there was still some

02:16:48 in this statement there was still some fsg training conducted between 2015 and 17 albeit not in the manner envisaged by the lack of house review which would have been in person training once one year followed by a cbt package the following year fsg packages were

02:17:00 following year fsg packages were available to control staff via cbt packages and all new entrants received full training on fsg as part of the new entrance course there would have also been a more for informal training as part of the

02:17:11 informal training as part of the responsibility of the oms to manage on-watch training and conduct familiarization exercises with current policy

02:17:20 and you refer also to the joint command unit exercises at paragraph 57 i don't think we need to go to those which continue to be rolled out in 2016.

02:17:31 in 2016. which had an fsg element to them now in general in my writing thinking that from your evidence it you you say that there were basically three training formats in place for existing

02:17:42 training formats in place for existing staff members so not new entrants one a cbt package two command unit fsg training and three informal training yes yes yes

02:17:53 yes yes yes would you agree that none of those was the full day in person refresher training with role play delivered in part by fire safety officers that had been planned and promised after lachenal

02:18:07 been planned and promised after lachenal yes i do

02:18:08 yes i do did you ever investigate what the latino house board or after april 2013 the lachenal house working group had been told about the state of play on fsg

02:18:19 told about the state of play on fsg training no i wasn't even told there was a lack of health working group

02:18:26 you may not have been told did you and did you investigate is my question really what what those two bodies were told at least one body no

02:18:35 no now let's look at scott hayward's statement please um and we've covered these figures but i just want to show you the period in in question

02:18:43 question uh

02:18:44 uh his first statement at lfb triple zero 55191 page 26 paragraph 74.

02:18:52 uh and you can see that there's a table there which he set out the title of which

02:18:57 which is table of fsg training during 2011 to 2017

02:19:02 to 2017 and we could have we can see that there is the year on the left-hand side staff total trained and percentage trained and in 2015 you can see that there was no fsg training at all due to the

02:19:14 no fsg training at all due to the rollout of the vision system

02:19:17 system vision training do you agree with that uh i haven't got the figures to have but that would make sense right you say you haven't got the figures to hand i think the point is there are no figures or rather the

02:19:28 there are no figures or rather the figures are naught then

02:19:30 then are great right and in 2016 um 83 staff total trained 38 resulting in 46 percent do you agree with that

02:19:41 do you agree with that i'm not sure if this uh includes the cbt training that some staff undertook in that year so i i couldn't confirm that well 2016 was an even year so would it

02:19:54 well 2016 was an even year so would it have been cbt or would it have been trainer-led so as i said i think from because we didn't undertake vision training and a cbt package in 2015 and

02:20:05 training and a cbt package in 2015 and the vision system was still extremely unstable in 2016 we explored uh rolling out the cbt training in 2016.

02:20:18 i think we did more than explore it i think

02:20:21 think we sent some emails ost sent some emails instructing staff to complete the cbt vision

02:20:28 vision fsg training yes i mean a paragraph 78.3 and i don't need to take you to this on page 29 of his statement mr hayward says that the training spreadsheet records that a number of types of fsg related training

02:20:40 number of types of fsg related training took place uh big learning fsg round three workshops

02:20:46 workshops um cbt package on the big learning platform about procedures and practices and then programs called fsg fire survival and fast survival training fire behavior all on big learning so his

02:20:59 fire behavior all on big learning so his evidence is that from what he's seen it did include cbt okay so going back to the figure at 2016 uh only 46 percent of staff

02:21:10 at 2016 uh only 46 percent of staff carried out any fsg training it appears do you agree with that figure if it includes the cbt package then yes

02:21:20 yes i

02:21:21 i know there were a lot of difficulties with it about some staff accessing the cbt packages and we worked to try and resolve those

02:21:33 to try and resolve those and if we go back to page 20 nine

02:21:38 nine sorry we're on page 29. uh no we're not can we go to page 29 please look at paragraph 78.4 uh he says there by way of explanation of the figure at

02:21:49 of the figure at 2017 he says uh in 2017 up to the date of the grenfell tower fire no refresher fsg training had taken place although seven new entrants would have received the

02:22:00 new entrants would have received the full fsg training as part of the new entrance courses run that year one of those entrants was on duty on the night of the fire first do you agree with what he says

02:22:11 first do you agree with what he says there

02:22:12 there yes as i understand it fsg training was rolled out at the end from september to december and every year the new at the new entrance program in the early part of

02:22:24 entrance program in the early part of the year is that right the new entrants would have received their training whenever they joined whenever they joined and the new entrance the new entrant that he says was on duty on the night of the fire was that sarah russell

02:22:35 night of the fire was that sarah russell i

02:22:35 i believe so yes so in the round is your evidence that the only fsg training undertaken by existing control staff in the time from when you came back from the cfoa in january 2015 and took charge

02:22:47 the cfoa in january 2015 and took charge of training to the night of the grenfell tower of fire was the limited amount in 2015

02:22:53 2015 and the 46 46 undertaken by staff in 2016.

02:22:57 2016. if the 46 includes the cbt those individuals accessing the cbt and taking part in the cu refresher training yes were you monitoring fsg training in

02:23:08 yes were you monitoring fsg training in those years 2015 16 17

02:23:14 towards the latter part of 2016 yes because i was involved with trying to get the still trying to get the cbt packages updated with babcock and lfb training and still

02:23:26 with babcock and lfb training and still trying to get access for some staff because of the technical difficulties they couldn't access big learning on their individual profiles and in 2017

02:23:37 on their individual profiles and in 2017 i was working with the training team to create a new training package to roll out in the september of that year for fsg refresher training did you bring these problems to the attention of

02:23:48 these problems to the attention of scott hayward or ac brown yes scott hayward was aware of them what about tom george a.c george i don't recall in my time being in charge of ost um

02:24:00 my time being in charge of ost um discussing training with with tom george

02:24:06 but he would have been aware of them i believe through scott hayward now

02:24:12 now you've explained that in 2015 there was

02:24:20 there was there were problems with the vision system

02:24:22 system if we look at your witness statement please at page 23 your witness statement paragraph 61 you say there at the bottom of the screen there were considerable issues

02:24:34 screen there were considerable issues between 2015 and 2017 with the rollout of vision which required much of the focus of the ost as it was essential that the control room had a functional functioning mobilizing system

02:24:48 what was the problem being as precise as you can

02:24:52 you can with finding just one day of fsg refresher training in 2015

02:25:00 in 2015 given that it was only going to be cbt that year anyway that we had undertaken a program of training i think we'd committed to train

02:25:11 to train over 2000 hours on the vision mobilizing system with control staff when the

02:25:18 when the system was delayed in the mid part of 2015 we then had to undertake a programme of maintenance and training and that was combined with additional

02:25:30 and that was combined with additional training that we needed to provide because

02:25:33 because some of the vision system we needed to change

02:25:36 change because it just didn't have the functionality that lfb needed and so there was additional training uh pretty consistently and i think uh if you are staff at a point where we went live

02:25:48 staff at a point where we went live that they didn't feel that they were sufficiently trained so whilst

02:25:53 whilst one day isn't a big ask with the amount of changes that they were having to process and as i've explained it was a completely different system something that they'd never been used to

02:26:04 something that they'd never been used to before and it was extremely difficult and the focus and the priority was on making sure that the mobilising system went live well you

02:26:15 the mobilising system went live well you keep saying that and i can understand that because without the vision mobilizing system pumps don't appear at incidents

02:26:21 incidents i guess is that right

02:26:25 yes yes yeah well we can't record the caller information to begin with exactly you can't work as a brigade and i understand that entirely and i can understand why you say that it's a priority but was it not also

02:26:39 it's a priority but was it not also a high priority

02:26:42 that cross needed proper proper training on how to handle fire survival guidance calls

02:26:50 calls given that if one occurred the cra

02:26:54 the cra was

02:26:55 was all the difference between life and possible death yes

02:27:00 yes i agree that fsg i've always thought that fsg refresher training is a priority

02:27:06 priority but

02:27:07 but from lfb the priority was that we trained our staff in the vision mobilising system and we made every effort to get that live during 2015 because it had already been delayed and

02:27:20 because it had already been delayed and and that's what i spent the majority of my time

02:27:24 my time working on and staff

02:27:27 staff had received some fsg training over the years as you've already discussed and new entrants had received fsg training as well

02:27:37 well was there

02:27:38 was there any thought given by way of some sort of lateral thinking to

02:27:45 to any other kind of delivery of training for example getting all the cros into a room at merton in in or whoever was there during the four hour overlap period putting up a screen

02:27:57 putting up a screen and taking them through the presentations as amended properly to reflect national guidance and the errors at latino so that they had up-to-date training in 2015 notwithstanding the vision problems

02:28:10 2015 notwithstanding the vision problems so i think that's what we were doing constantly training them on vision i don't think there was a period of time where we weren't uh training them on vision or working out or waiting for technical

02:28:22 out or waiting for technical enhancements to deliver yet more training on the system and but

02:28:30 that's the role that i was asked was to make sure that staff were trained on vision

02:28:35 vision and and

02:28:38 scott hayward tom george dave brown were fully aware of the problems that control staff were facing and the shortage of staff that we had in terms of trainers delivering training as

02:28:49 terms of trainers delivering training as well and facilitating both the technical and training elements of going live with the new mobilising system well i can see that all these problems but but i would suggest to you they weren't insurmountable

02:29:00 insurmountable by the process i've just identified perhaps a low-tech approach getting all the cras in a room and running them through the key points at least those that you regarded as absolutely critical from the documents in 2011. and my

02:29:12 from the documents in 2011. and my question is is there a reason why that wasn't thought of let alone done in 2015

02:29:19 in 2015 like i say that the issues with the vision mobilizing system i'm probably not getting it across were vast and and we were dealing with those and

02:29:33 i understand now uh

02:29:43 uh if we look on in your witness statement please at page paragraph 68

02:29:52 which we'll find on page 25 under the question please give your view of the effectiveness of the refresher training

02:30:00 training you deal with this on your return from the cfoa in 2015 you say

02:30:08 you say fifth line down in that paragraph i consistently sent emails to the training team to remind them of the duty to conduct fsg training but it became clear that the resources were not

02:30:19 clear that the resources were not available to conduct training in the same manner that was intended in 2011. what do you mean when you say the resources were not available i think the number of staff in ost

02:30:34 i think the number of staff in ost is what i mean by that so trainers yes

02:30:40 yes did you ask for any additional resources yes

02:30:44 yes who did you ask uh it would have been scott hayward what did he tell you um

02:30:53 um i probably pursued it to the point where i managed to second a number of staff from the watch into ost to assist

02:31:08 a number of start from the watch yes so aom's and oms yes yes how many did you succumb i believe two possibly three and when did you do that

02:31:19 when did you do that in

02:31:19 in mid 2015 i think but in 2015 there was no fsg refresher training given at all according to scott hayward figures because of vision training and you've told us yes of the

02:31:32 training and you've told us yes of the of the

02:31:33 of the overwhelming difficulties with getting that system up and running um so why

02:31:39 so why can you explain why 2015

02:31:43 why 2015 is it that you did that

02:31:48 is it that i asked for more staff in 2015 yes

02:31:51 2015 yes when did you get any more stuff you just told us two or three yes um as a result of getting more staff did you manage to deliver

02:32:00 deliver any kind of fsg refresher training to cras in 2015

02:32:07 no sorry you've given me the figures that said no um but i think at one point uh in early 2015

02:32:15 2015 we had

02:32:16 we had um i had had a conversation with ost about

02:32:19 about rolling out by survival guidance training and and i think that was always our intention

02:32:25 intention uh but as the vote the mobilising system was delayed from mid um

02:32:31 um 2015

02:32:32 2015 and then

02:32:34 and then we weren't able to deliver that now can we go to lfb 30s 59597

02:32:43 what i want to look at with you next ms smith is

02:32:46 smith is an audit done by the mayor's office for policing and crime or mopac now the audit was conducted it appears in the latter part of 2014 while he was

02:32:57 in the latter part of 2014 while he was still at cfoa but the reporting comes out in the early months of 2015. and first can you remember when you came back from the cfoa in january 2015 were

02:33:08 back from the cfoa in january 2015 were you told about the fact that mopac had been undertaking an audit no i don't recall if we look at the first page of this document

02:33:19 document you we can see that in the third column there is a heading responsibility senior operations manager joanne stippards and then a date in the next column 30th

02:33:30 and then a date in the next column 30th of june 2015 and then a control comment our sharepoint administrator will move this to a secure area where only aoms and above will have access and will be completed by 30th of june

02:33:47 first i've shown you a bit of detail were you aware of this document did you see this document at the time january february 2015. no

02:33:56 no have you ever seen this document before today no i don't believe sir right

02:34:01 right did anybody tell you at the time that a document like this existed no

02:34:06 no when was the first time leaving aside the last five minutes um that you became aware that mopac had conducted an audit and had produced a document such as this when watch it

02:34:17 document such as this when watch it scott hayward's evidence but i noticed that my name wasn't attached to it it just said responsibility senior operations manager on that version right did nobody tell you that a mopac audit had existed uh in

02:34:30 that a mopac audit had existed uh in early 2015 which has signed responsibility to uh

02:34:34 uh for the actions in it to you no

02:34:40 can we look at page two bearing in mind what you've told us about this document

02:34:47 on page two in the third paragraph from the left it says again responsibilities senior operations manager joanne stivards an independent record of the provision of fast survival guidance training for all

02:34:59 fast survival guidance training for all control staff will be maintained and monitored to ensure that all staff are in receipt of this training at least annually

02:35:05 annually a monthly report will be produced by ost providing the annual fsg training update and we will be directing oms to notify the training team if individuals are nearing their annual refresher so we can

02:35:16 nearing their annual refresher so we can get them on a refresher course and the date is is 30th of april 2015 and the last column uh says

02:35:25 uh says uh

02:35:26 uh completed ost will maintain these records and notify oms when staff are due annual refreshers as it will be easier for us to control than the watches

02:35:38 first were you aware of the finding uh rating medium as you can see on the left

02:35:44 left no i don't recall that

02:35:47 did anybody ever tell you that there was a medium risk to the organization if they were insufficient levels of fsg training

02:35:54 training no

02:35:56 no looking at the actions do you know whether any of them were in fact completed

02:36:02 only through scots evidence where nikki o'shea sends an email to scott to confirm

02:36:09 confirm that that's been done

02:36:12 right now they've clearly found that an independent uh

02:36:17 uh record of fsg training wasn't maintained and monitored is that right

02:36:25 i only saw the the email when nikki has emailed scott on his request to have that completed and what she has done about it did there come a time when you received

02:36:36 did there come a time when you received monthly up reports produced by ost about the annual fsg training update no i don't believe so would you have expected to receive it given your role by that time um

02:36:47 by that time um no i think that goes to show that actually individuals and different managers that were had different roles to perform would email ost directly that wouldn't

02:36:58 would email ost directly that wouldn't be unusual and that they would respond to the requesting officer so that would have been um

02:37:05 um from scott and ost

02:37:10 you were head of the ost by this time weren't you yes and scott was head of control so he would have asked for something to be completed and the ost team would have completed it yes and

02:37:21 and are you saying that even though there was a an undertaking or promise in this that ost would maintain the records and reports as we've seen identified

02:37:32 identified you didn't know about that i'm not sure if i was copied into the email i might have but

02:37:37 have but i'm not sure it wouldn't be unusual is what i was trying to explain that scott would go direct to the ost team does it surprise you to learn that this was an action that needed to be carried

02:37:48 was an action that needed to be carried out

02:37:51 yes did you ask uh oms or did you know whether they were telling staff who would do their annual refresher training

02:38:02 no and i think in the email that you displayed to scott and the training team in ost suggest that they would do it so

02:38:10 so that that's what i can comment on that so was this all completely outside your your remit i don't recall seeing this this document no i know but i mean looking at it it rather

02:38:21 rather it rather suggests that it because you were the senior operations manager and somebody thought it appropriate to assign responsibility to you for all this

02:38:32 to you for all this um it was somebody in the brigade thought it was within your remit and told the mayor's office that are you surprised they did that

02:38:41 yes without telling me yes

02:38:45 i think i mean some people listening to that might find that a little bit bizarre are you able to explain how it could have come about that this document could be created assigning responsibility for these things to you

02:38:57 responsibility for these things to you identifying them as complete without you knowing anything about it

02:39:03 no i can't i i've just seen a a document that you showed scott hayward earlier

02:39:10 earlier an earlier version of this where it's just got senior operations manager responsibility and not given to a named individual so maybe in a later version someone

02:39:22 thought it sat appropriately with me

02:39:26 well let's look on in the year then a little bit further 2015. can we look at lfb triple zero five one seven two two please

02:39:48 this is an email dated the 27th of april 2015

02:39:53 2015 from nicola o'shea to scott hayward copied to you and chris sharp subject fsg workshop planner xlsx looks like a spreadsheet

02:40:06 xlsx looks like a spreadsheet hi scott

02:40:08 hi scott please find attached the fsg workbook i have created as per the mopac audit the book contains a month by month planner for both control staff and ceos this will allow you to see at a glance

02:40:19 this will allow you to see at a glance who was trained in what month as that month nears the following year you will know who needs to complete their refresher the date the actual training took place will be entered against the person's name in the

02:40:30 against the person's name in the relevant month all training for control staff can then be entered onto the training record training recording sheet ready to be uploaded to step cu training is not entered on our training recording sheet we email people

02:40:41 training recording sheet we email people responsible for step and ask them to add it to the individual officers i've included a guidance sheet on the process for booking fsg workshops with the cu stroke control and completing the

02:40:52 the cu stroke control and completing the training recording sheet when the next lot of fsg workshops are due these sheets can be copied and pasted into the same workbook and relabeled to reflect that it is course number three and so on

02:41:04 number three and so on against this item in the mopac audit it states that oms are to notify ost when controlled staff are nearing to the and nearing the end of their fsg training i believe it would be easier for ost to

02:41:15 believe it would be easier for ost to keep check on this and we could notify oms as to when people to do their annual refresher

02:41:20 refresher this would also mean that the attached workbook stays with ost and no one else can access it can you let me know if you are happy with this if not i will arrange with vic to have it uploaded to an area where control have access can i

02:41:32 an area where control have access can i take it that this action is now complete on the mopac audit now

02:41:39 now first of all we see that you receive that email by way of a copy uh

02:41:45 uh and it refers at least in two places to the mopac audit did that email not alert you to the existence of that audit no i don't recall that email

02:41:58 i mean if you hadn't known about the mopac audit hadn't seen the audit document can you explain why this email copy to you did not prompt a question in your mind what is that

02:42:09 is that no

02:42:10 no probably no more i might have asked a question but no more than any other email someone sent to me during that time it's clearly addressed to scott and and it clearly looks like scott has taken the

02:42:22 scott has taken the action to resolve the action that's been awarded in that audit

02:42:29 audit you see you came back as you told us in your statement in january 15 and asked for a list of fs of cross whose fsg refresher training was outstanding this to some extent is a process isn't

02:42:40 this to some extent is a process isn't it which would help to answer that question at least prospectively were you not interested in the content of this email

02:42:48 email i i could have been at the time or i could have just acknowledged it that what scott had asked ost to complete what was there and there were they had the intention of notifying ost

02:43:01 of notifying ost um

02:43:02 um and that there was a record being

02:43:06 kept and we're looking at the third paragraph from the end where she says uh against this item in the mopac ordered it states that oems are to notify ost when control staff are nearing the end of their fsg training

02:43:17 nearing the end of their fsg training that was something which you were surely very interested in knowing about and keeping tabs on no yes i think nikki has resolved the problem there and said it will be easier

02:43:29 problem there and said it will be easier for ost to keep a check on it and they had committed to do that so i

02:43:34 i would have been happy with that yes were you not interested to know what the problem was at which this solution was aimed

02:43:45 because she said it was easier for ost do you mean well

02:43:51 well what is happening we've read the email nikki o'shea has suggested and indeed designed an fsg workbook in response to the mopac audit were you

02:44:02 in response to the mopac audit were you not interested to know what the problem was that the fsg workbook book was seeking to solve

02:44:09 no looking through that email it had been addressed to scott they had responded to an action that he had asked them to complete and they had done that

02:44:20 and they had done that and

02:44:21 and suggested some easier solutions it looks like to me than the mopac audit had suggested so i would have been content that ost had taken

02:44:32 content that ost had taken charge of that and would deliver that right

02:44:36 right what was the purpose of your being copied into this email you know

02:44:42 you know no i don't i see well actually i see all both keith diamond and myself are copied in and we were both senior managers

02:44:52 did you see the workshop planner as attached

02:44:56 attached i may have clicked on it i probably would have done that for due diligence now she says as i've said as i've shown you oms are to notify ost

02:45:09 uh when they near the end of their fsg training etc and it would be easier for ost to keep a check on this and we could notify ams as to when people would do their annual refresher

02:45:22 their annual refresher did you agree with that at the time if ost had thought that that would have been easier for them then i would have supported them in that yes you said you would have supported them you were head of ost

02:45:35 okay well you were weren't you yes and you're evident in your answers you i'm getting the impression that you your truck you're painting there was a different body but they they were all responsible to

02:45:47 but they they were all responsible to you weren't they yes but i would have as i said i would have supported them if they'd come up with a solution that they felt would have worked better do you know whether this proposal was

02:45:58 do you know whether this proposal was carried into effect no i don't you don't know or no it was

02:46:06 no it was well you're not interested to make sure that it was carried into effect given that it had come from nikki o'shea the aom in the ost based on an audit that you've never heard of no i would have thought that ost if they'd

02:46:18 would have thought that ost if they'd said that they would deliver that though they would carry on doing that and liaising with the oms and that wasn't an email that i would have expected to be copied in on an email from the

02:46:29 be copied in on an email from the training team to operations managers about individual cros

02:46:34 cros undertaking annual refresher training did you take any steps at this point to ensure that ost kept a check and a record on control staff's annual fsg training

02:46:46 potentially i can't recall but i may have done

02:46:55 are you able to tell us why the mopac audit action was marked uh complete as of the 30th of april 2015

02:47:04 2015 having regard to the fact that this email and the proposal in it is dated three days before that no

02:47:15 it's odd isn't it that you as head of the ost would not have heard of the audit but not have seen the ordered document

02:47:21 document and wouldn't know about what the problem was that this proposal was seeking to solve or whether it was carried into effect

02:47:29 effect do you agree no i i don't think so i think it's quite clear that scott hayward as the head of department had asked for this action to be carried out had been involved in the mopac audit and

02:47:40 and had a and this is a response to that i wouldn't think that that was unusual like i say scott went directly to ost on occasions

02:47:51 scott went directly to ost on occasions um to complete actions

02:47:57 what was keith diamond's role in this exercise at the time do you know he was like me another senior operations manager

02:48:05 manager do you remember having a conversation with him at the time to the effect of agreeing between you that

02:48:12 that dealing with this problem and carrying out the work in this email was his domain and not yours

02:48:21 no no i'd like to look next at the training that was provided uh in these years from 2015 onwards did you ever speak to the oms to find out if

02:48:32 you ever speak to the oms to find out if they were carrying out any kind of informal training uh potentially we may have raised that as a management team at a brigade control management meeting but i camera call

02:48:45 well the inquiry team has seen no records of any informal training and scott hayward has provided no evidence

02:48:53 evidence to show that informal training such as accessing fsg policies all the risks from time to time was ever undertaken in the in the years 2015 16 or 17.

02:49:05 the in the years 2015 16 or 17. uh

02:49:06 uh are you sure that there was informal fsg training during that period or do you not know i i would imagine that would have been kept with the individual operations managers in their watch folders

02:49:17 managers in their watch folders right so it was left to the individuals on an ad hoc basis yeah

02:49:22 yeah to the operations managers

02:49:26 did you carry out any kind of check on whether even this informal training

02:49:32 training accessing policies the rifts uh perhaps some of the presentations we've seen uh was being done so as i said we may have had those

02:49:44 as i said we may have had those discussions at brigade control management meetings

02:49:50 do you remember discussions about delivering training in that informal way at any of those brigade control management meetings i think i do remember scott reemphasising

02:50:03 remember scott reemphasising to oms their responsibility to maintain training on watch with their staff right

02:50:13 do you remember in which year 2015 2016 that discussion took place i don't know sorry right so that's informal training in respect of the cbt packages

02:50:24 of the cbt packages uh

02:50:25 uh you say at paragraph 60 as we've seen that they were available let's look at paragraph 62 of your statement where you pick up the the thread a bit more in a bit more detail page 24

02:50:37 detail page 24 you say

02:50:38 you say there were also issues with accessing cbt packages via big learning big learning was a platform provided by babcock which was designed for accessing cbt packages as noted above i was

02:50:49 cbt packages as noted above i was consistently chasing babcock in order to get access for the control room to these packages but due to the limitations of the nfb contract this took a considerable amount of time and there were problems with control staff

02:51:00 were problems with control staff accessing big learning on their pcs which control managers also attempted to resolve

02:51:06 resolve how long were you chasing babcock for access for the control room to those packages

02:51:13 um a number of months i don't think i ever got a resolution to it right can we look at lfb triple zero four six eight four nine

02:51:32 this is an email from you to jackie adams bonito that's how you pronounce it of the 9th of february 2016. subject request for old training package

02:51:43 old training package and you say in the second paragraph i wonder if you could point me in the in the right direction of someone that could assist us prior to babcock taking over the training contract control commissioned

02:51:54 training contract control commissioned an in-house cbt package for our fire survival guidance this action came out of the latin inquiry and we are trying to start this training again however cannot locate the cbt package do you know who would know

02:52:05 cbt package do you know who would know if this still exists or disappeared in the transfer it may be an additional item to consider giving to babcock as an accessible training package also i'm not sure who was going to come and discuss the possibility of having

02:52:17 and discuss the possibility of having some courses run by babcocks but no one has yet been in has been in touch yet just wanted to make sure we were not forgotten

02:52:26 now first can you tell us who was jackie adams bonito jack helens bonito i think she had moved to a training manager role in lfb so she was part of the

02:52:38 lfb so she was part of the the training contingent that liaised with babcocks she was part of the right the training department training department so not part of the ost no no no i understand uh

02:52:50 no no no i understand uh it looks from this that you still hadn't located

02:52:53 located the cbt the in-house cbt uh even in february 2016. had you

02:53:02 that's what it looks like it does look like that yes uh do you know what prompted you to send this email

02:53:13 um i think

02:53:16 i think that we couldn't locate it on big learning so we would start looking we were starting to look for it right

02:53:26 and this in-house cbt package wouldn't wouldn't be on big learning or would it doesn't mean it wouldn't be i'm not sure that's i think we we're trying to locate it or i'm trying to

02:53:38 trying to locate it or i'm trying to locate it

02:53:39 locate it but given that big learning was a bad

02:53:42 delivery deliverable um you wouldn't expect it to be on big learning would you i think

02:53:49 i think control staff had or some control staff had access to big learning i think we had the icon and some staff could access it it was difficult there was i know there were difficulties with certain

02:54:01 difficulties with certain profiles and individual profiles not being able to access it yes but the in-house cpt package wouldn't have been designed for the big learning platform would it

02:54:10 would it no

02:54:11 no but i believe it was there right that's why i was looking for it you were looking for it and didn't find it i think we do we did locate it yes it was on big learning

02:54:23 it was on big learning it was on big learning was that well just to be clear do you remember what the response to this inquiry of yours was no i don't do you know how long after february 2016 you you you got the in-house cbt package

02:54:35 you you you got the in-house cbt package for fsg

02:54:37 for fsg i think i explore it for the most part of 2016 trying to get it updated as well

02:54:47 uh and were there problems faced by control staff accessing big learning on their pcs

02:54:52 their pcs on their systems yes what were those problems i think i believe there was an i.t problem with their profiles their individual user profiles and how long did that problem persist for

02:55:05 did that problem persist for after you arrived back in january 2015. a long while and i think there was also a problem with bandwidth as well and playing the packages does that tell us that during

02:55:16 packages does that tell us that during that long while the control room staff did not have access to the cp the cbt package at all no i think some like i said there wasn't a problem with some staff some staff could access it and others couldn't i

02:55:28 could access it and others couldn't i couldn't tell you a percentage what was

02:55:31 what was the difference between those who could and those who couldn't individual user profiles

02:55:37 profiles was that not something that it could sort out

02:55:39 sort out i believe

02:55:40 i believe scott had asked them to several times right more than several times

02:55:47 do you know when you eventually got access to the cbt package

02:55:53 in terms of playing it through big learning yes no

02:55:57 no did you ever before the grenfell tower fire i don't believe so

02:56:03 you you say you discussed it with scott several times and

02:56:08 and what about anybody more senior no i just would have put it through my direct line manager to pursue with it did you create an alternative training solution in the interim given that cbt wasn't available

02:56:21 interim given that cbt wasn't available or wasn't available to all cros equally no i think we'd had hoped that when we were looking originally in february we would be able to have access and be able to update it

02:56:33 to update it so all control staff could undertake cbt training in 2016. and given that 2015 was a cbt year or originally intended as a cbt as one of the alternate years

02:56:45 as one of the alternate years and 2016 was a trainer-led year why not simply

02:56:49 simply have

02:56:51 have a a one-day or even four hour fsg training teacher-led that had been planned and promised after lachlan in that year i think the decision was taken that

02:57:02 i think the decision was taken that we would do a cbt package again the ost team were committed to reporting faults and managing the new vision system so that was the

02:57:14 vision system so that was the the decision taken at the time decision at which time was that decision taken i would imagine by the time i started pursue looking at the cbt package early 2016.

02:57:26 early 2016. why at that time did you not decide given that you didn't even have the in-house cbt package and given the difficulties with accessing it on big learning

02:57:35 learning to reinstate the initially promised teacher-led training for what was an even year so i don't believe it was my decision

02:57:43 decision in this but i probably would have had that discussion and may have decided or as a department we may have decided the cbt package due to the

02:57:54 the shortage of staff and the commitment that ost were given to the technical difficulties we were

02:58:02 we were experiencing with vision that a cbt would be preferable i don't understand that i'm afraid cbt is computer-based training yes if the computers were causing difficulty why prefer

02:58:13 causing difficulty why prefer cbt

02:58:14 cbt as opposed to teacher-led training which had any event been what had been promised uh to the latino house board after the latino fire i would have uh spoken to scott and said that the

02:58:25 spoken to scott and said that the resources in ost couldn't provide that i'm sure

02:58:32 you say you would have done did you yes yes

02:58:35 yes you actually went to him and said we haven't got cbt we need to train it's 2016. we promised it would be trainer led it should be trainer-led let's do trainer-led was that the conversation or

02:58:48 trainer-led was that the conversation or kind of conversation that you had with scott hayward in early 2016 no i didn't recommend that it was trainer-led i would have perhaps if we had discussed that i would have said that the ost resources

02:59:00 have said that the ost resources wouldn't be able to deliver trainer-led training but why not because of the technical difficulties we were experiencing with vision and their commitment to faults and reporting

02:59:11 commitment to faults and reporting faults at that time again it comes back to this question of low tech why not suggest

02:59:17 suggest a low-tech trainer-led four hours if it had to be four hours so that you could at least roll out some fsg refresher training to existing staff

02:59:29 fsg refresher training to existing staff in 2016.

02:59:31 in 2016. even even if as i say low-tech a slideshow from a projector on a screen

02:59:39 because that would have needed the resources from ost and i would have raised the fact that ost were committed to supporting the control room

02:59:51 to supporting the control room with vision and resolving the technical to technical difficulties we were experiencing well why not make an exception for this

03:00:02 make an exception for this important

03:00:03 important refresher training take some resources from mst take a four-hour slot prepare the teacher

03:00:11 teacher and deliver a four-hour training session i would have only just given my opinion it wouldn't have been my decision mr german is that a convenient moment yes i think it is thank you

03:00:22 yes i think it is thank you um

03:00:23 um smith will stop there for lunch we'll resume keys at two o'clock and again please don't discuss your evidence with anyone when they're out of the room all right thank you very much

03:00:44 thank you two dogs

03:00:55 you