Jonathan Sakula, cladding expert with 30+ years experience, explains the UK cladding industry structure. He describes Grenfell-type work as 'relatively routine' done by UK contractors rather than sophisticated European firms. Notes manufacturers don't volunteer fire safety information unless it leads to sales.
00:00:23 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing
00:00:26 hearing today we're going to hear evidence from one of the expert witnesses instructed by the inquiry yes msgrange yes mr chairman members of the panel good morning before i call mr jonathan sacula an
00:00:39 before i call mr jonathan sacula an expert witness to this inquiry i wanted to
00:00:42 to briefly explain the background to his involvement in the inquiry as all core participants will already be aware the inquiry has been looking for some time
00:00:51 some time to appoint an expert with knowledge of the cladding industry to assist the inquiry with its investigations on the 26th of october 2020
00:01:00 2020 jonathan sakula an expert with over 30 years experience in the facade industry was appointed as an expert to the inquiry on the 3rd of november 2020 he received a written
00:01:11 received a written set of instructions identifying a number of key
00:01:15 of key questions the answers to which were of particular interest to the inquiry by these questions the inquiry sought to gain a greater understanding and insight into the cladding industry in the period
00:01:27 into the cladding industry in the period january 2012 to june 2017 and particularly about its state of knowledge during that time including as to the fire risks posed by aluminium composite panels acm panels
00:01:39 aluminium composite panels acm panels with a pe polyethylene core mr sacular produced a report a written report in response to those questions on the 13th of march 2021
00:01:50 on the 13th of march 2021 and hence his oral evidence is being heard at this stage in the inquiry's timetable this also gives core participants the chance to hear his oral evidence in good time before the oral closing submissions in
00:02:02 before the oral closing submissions in modules one to three for the avoidance of doubt his evidence is primarily relevant to the issues which we explored in module 1 of the inquiry's work and sits with that evidence rather than
00:02:14 and sits with that evidence rather than being relevant to the module 3 evidence which you have been hearing in recent days so with that brief introduction i would now like to call mr jonathan secular to give his expertise thank you very
00:02:34 much
00:02:40 good morning i understand that you are willing to make the affirmation yes and the words are there on the screen so if you'd read them out please thank you
00:02:48 thank you i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now do sit down make
00:02:59 thank you very much now do sit down make yourself comfortable and before miss grange begins examining you i'm going to ask you to
00:03:10 examining you i'm going to ask you to help us with one important but small point how should we pronounce your surname uh secular good thank you very much yes strange yes thank you very much for
00:03:24 yes strange yes thank you very much for coming to give your oral evidence as an expert to the inquiry we are very grateful to you for all your assistance can i ask you to keep your voice up while you're giving your oral evidence so that the transcriber who's
00:03:36 evidence so that the transcriber who's just sitting to your right can get a clear record down of the of the evidence that you give
00:03:43 give it also helps if you say yes or no in response to my questions rather than shaking or nodding your head so that there's a record on the transcript and we will take a break a convenient moment mid-morning and then
00:03:55 a convenient moment mid-morning and then again
00:03:55 again this afternoon now by way of a letter of instruction dated the 3rd of november 2020 you were instructed by this inquiry to answer a series of discrete questions
00:04:08 to answer a series of discrete questions and those questions are helpfully set out at appendix a of your report if we could turn that up that's jos 701 at page 72
00:04:21 so here we can see the annex to the instructions you were sent
00:04:28 sent which sets out the questions that you were posed and i'm just going to read out the first two paragraphs of that the inquiry wishes to understand more about the cladding industry in the period
00:04:38 period january 2012 to june 2017 in asking you about the state of knowledge within the cladding industry during that period we would like to understand what a specialist cladding contractor
00:04:49 contractor exercising reasonable skill and care would have appreciated and understood about certain matters as set out in the questions below except where indicated otherwise we would ask you to examine the position
00:05:01 would ask you to examine the position one in england and wales and in the rest of the uk if possible in providing an opinion on these matters we are particularly interested to know whether you can point to any industry conferences journals and other
00:05:12 conferences journals and other publications circulars or guidance available
00:05:15 available during the relevant period which provide objective evidence of the information that was available about these matters within the industry to the extent that the position changed between 2012
00:05:26 between 2012 and june 2017 please describe those changes when answering the questions and explain why they occurred please also explain any differences of opinion understanding and practice within the industry during that period and then we can see
00:05:39 during that period and then we can see that below that you were asked a series of questions about the state of knowledge within the cladding industry of various matters including in particular regarding the fire risks posed by the use
00:05:51 fire risks posed by the use of acm panels including with a polyethylene core now i'm not going to read out all those questions at this stage we will revisit many of those during
00:06:02 we will revisit many of those during your evidence today now in response to those questions you have produced a written report if we go to the front page of that so that's uh
00:06:12 that's uh yes there we have it so this is the front page of your report of the facade expert and we can see there that it's dated the 13th of march 2021
00:06:24 the 13th of march 2021 and if we could go within the report to page 71
00:06:27 page 71 we can see the same date the 13th of march
00:06:31 march 2021 we can go on to page 71 yes and is that your signature there yes and to confirm you've structured
00:06:42 yes and to confirm you've structured your report by chapter each of which deals with the questions you were asked in turn is that correct yes and are the factual matters set out in your report true to the best of your knowledge and belief
00:06:54 knowledge and belief yes and does your report accurately set out your true and professional opinions on the matters you were asked to consider yes it does thank you now i i want to ask you some questions
00:07:06 now i i want to ask you some questions first about your your background and experience now in section three and appendix b of your report you've outlined your background and experience relevant to matters to
00:07:18 and experience relevant to matters to this inquiry if we can turn to section 3 at page 18 of this report
00:07:26 there you've set out in detail your background i'm not going to go through the detail of all of that but i'm going to highlight some key points which if you can just confirm so is it right that you've worked in the
00:07:38 so is it right that you've worked in the construction industry for over 45 years and in the facade industry in particular for almost 30 years yes and you have a degree in engineering
00:07:49 yes and you have a degree in engineering from the university of cambridge and you are a chartered engineer a fellow of the institution of structural engineers and a fellow of the institution of civil engineers is that correct
00:08:00 correct yes and after studying engineering at university you started your career as a structural engineer with arab and after a number of years working in the construction industry here and
00:08:11 in the construction industry here and abroad
00:08:12 abroad you became a founder member of our arab facade engineering in 1992 is that correct yes and you then worked as a facade team leader
00:08:23 as a facade team leader for companies including dewhurst mcfarland
00:08:26 mcfarland and yoliz and hellcrow before spending the last seven years of your full-time career as the technical director for bureau happild facade engineering in london
00:08:37 london yes can you just help us and and just explain the difference you've been a facade team leader for major construction companies and you've also been a technical director
00:08:49 also been a technical director for bureau hepold can you just explain the difference between those roles
00:08:56 yes the facade team leader would have had overall responsibility for leading a team which would go beyond the purely technical it would involve be involved dealing with people and
00:09:09 be involved dealing with people and management issues and financial matters and so on
00:09:13 and so on the technical director's responsibility was essentially more technically focused yes thank you and while at bureau hapold you were also responsible for technical coordination with bureau
00:09:26 technical coordination with bureau happil's usa middle eastern and east african facade teams is that correct east asian sorry east asian sorry that's correct and then before retiring in 2017 you
00:09:39 and then before retiring in 2017 you worked as a principal for bureau happily's new york office leading their facade team is that correct yes can you explain what the role of a principal was within bureau hapold
00:09:51 bureau hapold when you're in new york it was a title of of seniority effectively um it was uh probably one below being a partner
00:10:01 partner right yes thank you
00:10:06 and what were your responsibilities as principal for bureau happily's new york office
00:10:11 office um leading the team and as i said before it was essentially dealing with the staffing the management the financial
00:10:24 staffing the management the financial and in this case also the some of the technical issues yeah involved yeah so you would still have technical issues referred to you in that role
00:10:31 that role yes yes although we did have a technical director as well right yes and is it right that since retiring
00:10:39 retiring retiring you've worked as a facade expert and consultant yes yes now you say at paragraph 3.5 if we just
00:10:49 we just look at that on page 18 of your report so it's the page we're on you tell us during the course of my career i've worked on many projects ranging from structural engineering for
00:11:00 ranging from structural engineering for whole buildings and parts of buildings to facade engineering and also research and development work for the facade consultancy project since 1992
00:11:10 1992 i have worked at all stages of the construction process for building owners architects main contractors and facade subcontractors i have worked in the office
00:11:21 in the office as a designer stroke specifier and also on site inspecting new work and carrying out investigations where there were facade-related problems on existing buildings
00:11:35 now in terms of the sentence in the middle of that paragraph you say for the facade consultancy project since 1992 i've worked at all stages of the construction process just just to be clear in terms
00:11:47 process just just to be clear in terms of that last sentence do you or that sentence do you mean that when working on facade projects and since 1992 you've worked at all different stages of the construction process
00:11:57 process yes i i'm making that point only because prior to 1992 i was working essentially as a structural engineer whereas i started working as a facade engineer after 1992.
00:12:08 engineer after 1992. yes thank you have you ever worked alongside or in the role of a cladding contractor as distinct from in the role of a cladding or facade consultant
00:12:19 of a cladding or facade consultant i've never worked as a clouding contractor but i have worked for cladding contractors yes and what's the extent of your experience working for cladding
00:12:30 experience working for cladding contractors um essentially it was it was working as a near as an engineer helping them with the detailed design
00:12:42 helping them with the detailed design of some of the more technical parts of the the project typically of a structural nature sometimes of a thermal nature yes thank
00:12:54 sometimes of a thermal nature yes thank you
00:12:56 you and at paragraph 3.3 slightly earlier on that page
00:13:00 that page higher up you tell us um four lines down that one of the projects that you
00:13:07 that you led was the overcladding of a tall residential tower block in hackney east london
00:13:13 london now can you help us just approximately when was that that project when did that take place approximately 1993 yes and can you help us was that tower block
00:13:24 and can you help us was that tower block um over 18 meters yes yes it was 20 stories and was that a refurbishment or a new build project it was a refurbishment yes and can you
00:13:35 it was a refurbishment yes and can you recall what over cladding materials were used
00:13:38 used yes it were aluminium panels what type of aluminium panels were they aluminium composite panels or pure aluminium panels pure aluminium panels yes
00:13:49 panels yes and did the project involve the installation of insulation and cavity barriers behind the the panels yes can you remember what type of insulation
00:14:00 can you remember what type of insulation was installed i'm i pretty sure it was mineral wool right yes and and what was your particular role in relation to that over cladding
00:14:11 cladding project i i was effectively leading our small team as as the facade consultant to the borough of hackney right yeah so you were employed by
00:14:22 were employed by the london borough of hackney to act as a facade consultant yes and
00:14:29 yes and so what was your involvement in terms of the design of that over cladding
00:14:36 uh we there was an architect involved and our role as facade engineer was simply to
00:14:43 simply to deal with the technical side of the cladding and writer specification and typical drawings showing the principles of the cladding
00:14:53 cladding great and then the architect what subsumed that work into its own work and took that forward yes thank you now you've set out some further selected project
00:15:03 project experience in your cv if we could look at that that's on page 77 of your report in one of the annexes and we can see yes there at the bottom
00:15:16 and we can see yes there at the bottom of that page you've listed a number of um projects under the heading selected project experience the final entry on that page we can see is the stratford
00:15:27 we can see is the stratford eye tower london e15 um and you say that was a review of facade matters for main contractor for a 20-storey
00:15:37 20-storey residential tower again can you help us roughly when was that that project when did that take place uh that would have been about 2002 2003 and
00:15:49 2003 and it sounds like that was a building over 18 meters if it had 20 stories yes yes yes and again can you help us was that a
00:15:58 that a a reefer project or a new build that was a new build yeah and what did your review of facade matters entail well in that case i was working for the
00:16:10 well in that case i was working for the main contractor as as the client my client and was effectively helping the contractor deal with technical submissions from
00:16:22 deal with technical submissions from their own specialist subcontractor so it would have been reviewing drawings reviewing their technical submissions and so on yes i see yes so acting as a kind of checking mechanism for the main
00:16:34 kind of checking mechanism for the main contractor yes in terms of the subcontractors facade design yes yes and did that review of facade matters would that have extended as necessary to checking
00:16:46 extended as necessary to checking compliance matters compliance with building regulations and associated guidance
00:16:51 guidance no i don't recall it involving that no right
00:16:54 right yeah do you have any other experience of a rain screen over cladding project on buildings over 18 meters not of over cladding projects no right
00:17:06 not of over cladding projects no right yeah
00:17:07 yeah now um i want to ask you some questions now
00:17:11 now more general questions about the uk cladding industry and if we look at section 5 of your report on page 21 we can see that you provide some
00:17:22 we can see that you provide some information about the nature of the uk cladding industry and i want to pick it up at paragraph 5.1.3 and you say there that it may be helpful
00:17:33 and you say there that it may be helpful to explain briefly the nature and evolution of the uk cladding industry over the last 50 years and then you go on at 5.1.4 you say
00:17:44 and then you go on at 5.1.4 you say um during the 1970s and 1980s there was an increase in the penetration of the uk
00:17:51 of the uk and uk related overseas facade markets by facade contractors from countries in mainland europe for example from italy germany switzerland france and holland
00:18:03 switzerland france and holland and you say design and technical staff from those countries had a relatively high level of technical education now just pausing there
00:18:14 education now just pausing there can you help us as to what it was that led to the increase in the penetration of the uk facade markets by these mainland european countries were there particular factors
00:18:26 were there particular factors circumstances which led to that penetration of the market it's interesting i i i impression i have is is that they were technically
00:18:38 is is that they were technically stronger but of course this was before the time when i started my own work as a facade consultant so i'm i was looking i'm looking back yes
00:18:50 i'm i was looking i'm looking back yes prior to that but the impression i got is that they were technically stronger and they started to dominate the market in in the uk for projects which required
00:19:01 in in the uk for projects which required that
00:19:01 that higher level of technical excellence yes and when you tell us in that second sentence that i read that the design and technical staff from these countries had a relatively
00:19:12 a relatively high level of technical education what level of education are you referring to there
00:19:21 well the sort of the tradition in in europe countries like germany say they had the tradition of technical high schools with a pretty good level of technical
00:19:33 a pretty good level of technical engineering type of education and probably better than that than britain at that time
00:19:41 time yes and and that's what i'm referring to yeah
00:19:44 yeah and i think without going too much off on a tangent i i think it's interesting that the technical world and the engineering
00:19:55 the technical world and the engineering world in mainland europe was um probably more developed or developing at that time than it was in britain
00:20:06 than it was in britain yes yes and are there any particular speciality or specialities that you noticed that in um where they were technically more
00:20:18 advanced not specifically um
00:20:24 i i would also note that what was also interesting is is that in countries like italy there was a a tendency to have a more joint
00:20:35 joint engineering architectural degree yeah not so much compartmentalized into engineering and architecture so um engineers and other technical people
00:20:47 um engineers and other technical people in the construction industry coming out of italy for example uh would have had a stronger architectural sensibility possibly than those equivalents in the
00:20:59 possibly than those equivalents in the uk
00:21:00 uk yes so that that wasn't it that was probably a difference yes yes and was this a level of education and of technical um speciality that uk cladding contractors did not possess
00:21:13 contractors did not possess at that time was that your perception well as i say i i i was look i'm looking back here
00:21:19 back here at the 1970s and 80s before i actually became involved so um and it's only based on my understanding of what took place at that time yes um
00:21:31 took place at that time yes um but yes your question was was it was it a level of education and technical
00:21:38 technical speciality or expertise that these mainland europe countries had that uk cladding contractors did not possess i i i wouldn't say that the uk cladding
00:21:49 i i i wouldn't say that the uk cladding contact contractors did not possess it was just a question of relatively um the the mainland european ones were were slightly stronger yeah thank you
00:22:02 slightly stronger yeah thank you and you go on to say just looking at the the last third of that paragraph 5.1.4 you say in more recent years since 2000 the uk and international marketplace has
00:22:14 the uk and international marketplace has also included facade contractors from china tender lists for large or complex buildings would therefore have comprised mainly such companies now just to
00:22:26 mainly such companies now just to clarify
00:22:27 clarify where you refer there to mainly such companies here and you're referring to international cladding contractors is that from both europe
00:22:35 europe and latterly china yes yes so you're saying that tender lists for large or complex buildings would therefore have comprised mainly
00:22:46 would therefore have comprised mainly companies
00:22:47 companies from mainland europe and latterly china yes
00:22:52 yes now can you help us you you've used the expression there tender lists for large or complex buildings
00:23:00 buildings can you help us as to what your definition is there of a large or complex building in the context you're referring to in that paragraph
00:23:10 well um
00:23:14 i i'm for example i'm not including in that category
00:23:20 low-rise small buildings um
00:23:26 a complex building is something which which
00:23:30 which involves technical challenges going beyond
00:23:34 beyond the everyday yeah the routine um a large building is something you mean how large is large yeah so um
00:23:46 no i think that that's helpful um large is
00:23:50 is i i wouldn't like to put a number on it but but um i i would include uh for example glenn grenfell tower in in the category large
00:24:01 the category large yes although not complex yes i'm going to come back to that point in a moment um you say in the paragraph below 5.1.5 you say by contrast the uk facade
00:24:14 5.1.5 you say by contrast the uk facade contractors would have carried out the more routine facade work in particular over cladding work of the kind used for grenfell tower would normally have had mainly uk companies
00:24:25 normally have had mainly uk companies on the tender lists so in terms of that paragraph what type of work are you referring to there when you refer to
00:24:32 refer to uk cladding contractors would have carried out the more routine facade work well as i've said um overclouding work of the can't use the grenfell tower but
00:24:45 of the can't use the grenfell tower but i mean
00:24:46 i mean also um
00:24:51 facade work in general for relatively low rise buildings maybe 10 stories or so um and which didn't involve any
00:25:04 and which didn't involve any particularly complex challenges yes yeah and can you explain to us why the kind of work done at grenfell tower was in that category of the more routine
00:25:15 was in that category of the more routine facade work can you just help us with that
00:25:19 yes i mean it from from a technical point of view it it wasn't particularly unusual what they were doing on on the outside of the building
00:25:30 of the building uh they were putting up rails and and putting
00:25:34 putting up panels and insulation inside and so on
00:25:38 on and that's been done quite a lot in britain so that's why i call it relatively routine yes yeah and can you also help us
00:25:49 yes yeah and can you also help us understand why that work was ordinarily carried out by the uk facade contractors well i i would imagine it's because
00:26:02 countries from outside companies from outside britain wouldn't have bothered to bid for relatively routine projects yes because
00:26:13 projects yes because they just wouldn't have been that interested in those they would have bid for the ones where there was where there was more of a challenge and possibly more
00:26:24 from a commercial point of view there was more value in them for the overseas companies
00:26:29 companies they would have been more interested yes i i would say probably from a from a commercial point of view the the profit margins on these kinds of projects in the britain would
00:26:41 kinds of projects in the britain would have been less less attractive for an overseas company yes
00:26:45 yes yes and and you go on to say if we look a little bit down that page at 5.1.6 that you tell us in considering the state of knowledge within
00:26:56 state of knowledge within the cladding industry therefore i shall consider only the typical uk-based contractors and not the international players referred to above um can you just explain that why you're
00:27:07 um can you just explain that why you're only considering the state of knowledge by reference to those uk based contractors well because i've been asked in to address the state of knowledge within the uk cladding industry
00:27:19 the uk cladding industry yes um so it didn't seem relevant therefore to consider the the major international players yes now considering what you've said about the european and chinese contractors
00:27:30 the european and chinese contractors penetrating the market from at the latest around 2000 um [Applause] can you help us as to whether the domestic cladding industry
00:27:42 domestic cladding industry benefited from the increased knowledge and expertise of those international contractors when they entered the the market yes i would imagine they would because
00:27:53 yes i would imagine they would because mostly through um interchange of staff people people throughout their careers work for different companies and pick up knowledge from the places they
00:28:04 pick up knowledge from the places they worked
00:28:05 worked yes
00:28:09 so in your opinion did the domestic cladding industry benefit in terms of its technical knowledge and expertise from that penetration by international facade contractors yes they i imagine
00:28:22 facade contractors yes they i imagine they probably did yes
00:28:28 now if we can turn to paragraph 2.3.2 on page 16 of your report
00:28:39 you say there you say in section 5 i give this
00:28:42 give this a summary of the nature of the uk cladding industry differentiating between the uk-based cladding contractors dealing with the overclouding projects such as on grenfell tower and the top-tier international facade
00:28:55 and the top-tier international facade contractors and considering reasonable skill and care i am considering that which is applicable to the uk cladding contractors carrying out over cladding work similar to that on the grenfell tower refurbishment
00:29:06 refurbishment while the level of technical expertise of such contractors may be slightly less than that of their international counterparts i consider that the expected level of reasonable skill and care is the same
00:29:22 so you're explaining to us there the approach you've taken is that right to the expected level of reasonable skill and care yes yes and even though you've noticed this difference
00:29:34 this difference between the technical experience and expertise
00:29:37 expertise you've still applied a consistent standard to that question is that right yes yes thank you
00:29:46 now um you say at paragraph 2.4.1 a little bit further down on that same page
00:29:51 page 16. you say that in addressing questions about the state of knowledge within the cladding industry you're not able to provide statistical evidence to back up your opinions and that your views are based on your own
00:30:03 that your views are based on your own experience
00:30:06 now do you accept that the state of knowledge
00:30:10 knowledge within the cladding industry can sometimes be inferred from widespread practices adopted within the industry
00:30:20 yes um i'm just turning now to manufacturers i want to ask you some general questions now about the relationship between cladding
00:30:31 cladding contractors and manufacturers if we can look at
00:30:35 look at uh paragraph 2.2.3 on page 16. sorry that's this same page just a bit that's it further up you say here um picking it up a little bit into the
00:30:48 um picking it up a little bit into the first line a cladding contractor deals with a wide range of products so would not be expected to be as knowledgeable as the manufacturer for each product the cladding contractor would therefore rely to a large extent
00:31:01 would therefore rely to a large extent on the information and certification provided by the manufacturer now when you're talking about manufacturers there just to be clear are you referring to cladding
00:31:13 are you referring to cladding manufacturers only or would you include insulation manufacturers there as well yes i would include manufacturers of all products involved in in the process including insulation
00:31:25 in the process including insulation manufacturers yes thank you and to what extent would you expect a reasonably competent cladding contractor to be reliant on manufacturers for advice about the fire safety
00:31:38 advice about the fire safety of their products i think they would be quite reliant upon them the the manufacturers as i've said are the people who are
00:31:49 as i've said are the people who are dealing
00:31:50 dealing very much with the their particular product and would be expected to be very conversant with the legislation and about their product and
00:32:03 the manufa the cladding contractors would rely on them to a very large extent
00:32:08 extent unless there was some reason to to doubt the advice they were being given in which case they might want to take independent advice yes yes thank you what about suppliers or fabricators now
00:32:21 what about suppliers or fabricators now to what extent would you expect a reasonably competent cladding contractor to be reliant on suppliers or fabricators of cladding products for advice about the fire safety of
00:32:32 for advice about the fire safety of those products
00:32:35 the well by suppliers uh could you just define what you mean by that as
00:32:41 that as effectively middle men between the manufacturer of the say the cladding panels
00:32:47 panels and a a supplier often maybe a supplier and fabricator of those panels i i wouldn't expect the supplier and fabricator to be particularly knowledgeable
00:32:59 knowledgeable on on that sort of subject yeah now back to manufacturers would you expect a manufacturer to volunteer information relating to the fire safety of its products
00:33:08 products or simply respond to direct questions from the cladding contractor
00:33:16 i would expect them mostly to respond to questions from the cladding contractor right yes yeah and can you help us as to why you say that rather than expecting
00:33:28 why you say that rather than expecting the manufacturer to be volunteering information about the fire safety of its products well i'm not commenting here on what is right i'm only commenting on what i
00:33:39 i'm only commenting on what i would expect to happen i understand um the the the manufacturer provides marketing literature and other technical literature uh to the and they're trying to sell a
00:33:51 uh to the and they're trying to sell a product
00:33:52 product um and generally they're happy to sell it
00:33:56 it uh unless questions are asked and then they answer those questions and so on so they they're not um it's not in their
00:34:07 they're not um it's not in their interest to cast doubt about the usefulness of their products so they wouldn't tend to volunteer information unless they thought it would lead to a sale right yes would you expect the
00:34:21 right yes would you expect the reasonably competent cladding contractor to have enough technical knowledge to be able to interrogate a manufacturer's claims about the fire performance of its
00:34:32 about the fire performance of its products
00:34:36 could you repeat the first part yes would you expect the reasonably competent cladding contractor to have enough technical knowledge to be able to interrogate a manufacturer's claims about the fire performance of its
00:34:47 claims about the fire performance of its product
00:34:51 yes although i would qualify that by saying that if the proposed usage fitted perfectly with
00:35:02 usage fitted perfectly with the literature provided by the manufacturer yes i wouldn't expect them to question it yes but i would expect them to question it if they were proposing something which was
00:35:13 they were proposing something which was different
00:35:14 different or even slightly different from that being proposed for which the technical information applied yes yes and what about a reasonably competent clouding attractor would you
00:35:26 competent clouding attractor would you expect them to be able to pose appropriate questions to be able to fully understand a product fire performance yes yes
00:35:33 yes yes [Applause] would you expect a cladding contractor to have a deeper knowledge and understanding about the fire performance of a particular product
00:35:44 of a particular product if that contractor had significant experience of working with a particular cladding product yes yes and what about would you expect them to have a deeper
00:35:56 would you expect them to have a deeper knowledge and understanding about the fire performance of a particular product if they designed and installed systems containing such material on several occasions before yes thank
00:36:07 on several occasions before yes thank you
00:36:09 you now just some general questions now about
00:36:13 about um how the reasonably competent cladding contractor would have interpreted the building regulations and the guidance in approved document b in the period we're looking at between 2012 and 2017.
00:36:25 we're looking at between 2012 and 2017. later in my questioning i will be asking you some more specific questions about particular elements of the cladding system at grenfell tower including the acm and the insulation
00:36:36 including the acm and the insulation with reference to the regulatory framework but at this stage these are more general questions about that framework do you agree as a general proposition that cladding contractors should have
00:36:47 that cladding contractors should have regard
00:36:48 regard to the building regulations the approved documents
00:36:51 documents and associated guidance as a whole and so far as possible interpret them consistently with one another
00:36:59 another yes do you consider that reasonably competent cladding contractors and product manufacturers should have regard to the purpose and intent of the building regulations
00:37:11 intent of the building regulations and the approved documents where the purpose and intent are clear and apparent yes if we can look at page 61 of your
00:37:22 if we can look at page 61 of your report at this point and paragraph 17 11. we'll come back to this section of your report later when we're looking specifically at the acm panels
00:37:35 specifically at the acm panels but just picking up on what you say there you say i know however that adb that's approved document b the statutory guidance is not itself the building regulations
00:37:46 is not itself the building regulations and that the 2010 building regulation b41 itself states and then you set out a quote from that part of the building regulations from the functional requirements
00:37:57 requirements now in your experience and in general terms can you help us as to what regard was paid to the approved document on fire safety adb in the cladding
00:38:10 on fire safety adb in the cladding industry over the period 2012 to 2017 well i think most practitioners in the industry would have would have given very high regard to adb
00:38:21 would have given very high regard to adb too
00:38:24 and would have would have regarded that as being
00:38:28 as being the thing that they needed to satisfy rather than the original building regulation itself yes so
00:38:37 yes so um is it fair to summarize that it was seen
00:38:40 seen by cladding contractors as an authoritative source of guidance to compliance with the building regulations yes
00:38:50 and did that ever change over that period was though as far as you were aware ever a time when
00:38:57 when less attention was paid to approve document be on fire safety or would that have been
00:39:02 have been consistent throughout i wouldn't say that less attention was paid to it but i think during the period in question
00:39:11 question um leading up to 2017 i think there was a growing concern about the clarity of guidance given in adb2 particularly section 12. yes
00:39:25 adb2 particularly section 12. yes yes i'm going to come back to that um because you make that point uh in your report and particularly with reference to some of the other guidance that was available
00:39:35 available uh at the time um so i will come back to that
00:39:39 that just sticking with the general point do you agree that any reasonably competent cladding contractor would have known and understood the fundamental importance of complying with the fire safety requirements concerning
00:39:51 the fire safety requirements concerning the design and construction of an external cladding facade as set out in the building regulations and approved document b
00:40:01 they would have understood the importance of did you see yes the fundamental importance of complying with that
00:40:06 that so it's a very general but important question
00:40:10 question would a reasonably competent cladding contractor expect that if they complied with approved document b then that would ensure compliance with the functional requirements in the building regulations
00:40:22 building regulations yes did you yourself ever have experience in any of the projects you worked on of the guidance in approved documents perhaps in any of them whether adb or any of the other guidance documents
00:40:34 any of the other guidance documents becoming out of date compared with good industry practice
00:40:46 yes i suppose as i said earlier the sense i had was that the the requirements of adb2 for example um particularly section 12 as i
00:40:58 um particularly section 12 as i mentioned
00:40:58 mentioned um seemed to me to have been lagging behind
00:41:04 behind what was going on in the rest of the industry
00:41:07 industry yes yeah yes and you've given that example were you ever aware of any other examples where it was known that if you followed a predocument b or any of the other approved documents that
00:41:19 of the other approved documents that wasn't consistent with good industry practice
00:41:22 practice uh i can't recall any no yeah okay thank you
00:41:28 do you consider that when approaching its design work anything
00:41:37 what's interesting in in all regulations codes and standards is that they're never updated on a daily basis that that's the nature of these things obviously and um they're only updated from time to
00:41:49 um they're only updated from time to time
00:41:50 time and as uh technical knowledge progresses there'll always be a slight time lapse time lag yes and it's a question of what time lag is is reasonable yes yes and the sense i was getting during
00:42:03 yes and the sense i was getting during those years was the time lag in relation to the the lack of clarity on uh parts of adb2 was was getting unreasonable
00:42:14 unreasonable yes that's helpful thank you do you consider that the reasonably competent cladding contractor would have started any design work by considering the functional requirements themselves
00:42:26 the functional requirements themselves before moving on to the guidance in approved document b or would you expect the reasonably competent cladding contractor to go straight to the guidance in adb
00:42:37 straight to the guidance in adb i would respect the latter yes
00:42:41 now in the context of the work of an architect
00:42:44 architect the inquiry's architectural expert mr hyatt
00:42:48 hyatt has explained that it would be good practice for an architect to prepare a note setting out the key statute requirements relevant to any design early in the design process so that's a
00:43:00 early in the design process so that's a note for internal purposes at the beginning of a design process encapsulating what the statutory controls are that the design needs to comply with
00:43:11 needs to comply with would you expect a reasonably competent cladding contractor to do the same ie to seek to summarize somewhere in a working document the relevant provisions of the building
00:43:22 the relevant provisions of the building regulations and approved documents or other guidance which were going to be relevant to the design of
00:43:28 design of a particular facade i wouldn't necessarily expect them to summarize that in a document but i would expect them to
00:43:37 them to go through the various requirements in a sort of as a sort of checklist and make sure that what was being proposed
00:43:44 proposed complied i wouldn't necessarily expect them to produce a document to that effect right but would there be some kind of record of that checklist exercise having been
00:43:55 of that checklist exercise having been carried out in your experience
00:44:02 i can't recall exactly but it um i i wouldn't be able to say no fair enough
00:44:09 enough now in your opinion should a reasonably competent clouding contractor have been familiar with functional requirement b3 which deals with internal fire spread as well as part b4 on external fire
00:44:22 as well as part b4 on external fire spread
00:44:24 spread i wouldn't have thought they would have been so
00:44:28 been so conversant with b3 no do you agree that the reasonably competent cladding contractor ought to have been familiar with section 9 of approved document b which deals with concealed spaces
00:44:39 which deals with concealed spaces cavities
00:44:41 cavities as well as section 12 of adb as both were relevant and applicable to the design and construction of an external cladding facade yes yes
00:44:53 now just some questions now about approved document b and the routes to compliance within that document if we could turn first to section nine of approved document b which is at clg
00:45:05 of approved document b which is at clg 50224 at page 82.
00:45:14 so this is section 9 that i was just referring to dealing with concealed spaces cavities it's under the b3 section of approved document b under the
00:45:25 section of approved document b under the internal fire spread section and we can see there that paragraph 9.1 begins it says concealed spaces or cavities in the construction of a
00:45:37 cavities in the construction of a building provide a ready route for smoke and flame spread this is particularly so in the case of voids in above and below the construction of a building e.g walls floors ceilings and roofs any spread is
00:45:48 floors ceilings and roofs any spread is concealed
00:45:50 concealed as as any spread is concealed it presents a greater danger than wood and more obvious weakness in the fabric of the building now would you expect that the reasonably competent cladding contractor would be aware of the warnings that we see in
00:46:02 aware of the warnings that we see in that paragraph yes yes could i just add one point here yes
00:46:07 yes i i notice here that section nine occurs within
00:46:11 within b3 yes i'd forgotten that so when i answered earlier that i wouldn't have expected them to have
00:46:19 have read to know about b3 i i i have to modify that by saying that yes they should have known about section nine yes thank you and then we can see a heading below that
00:46:31 and then we can see a heading below that paragraph had provision of cavity barriers and at 9.2 it says provisions for cavity barriers are given below for specified locations the provisions necessary to respect restrict the spread of flame and flames
00:46:43 restrict the spread of flame and flames through cavities are broadly for the purpose of subdividing and then it talks about subdividing cavities and extensive cavities in the next part
00:46:52 next part um so again would you expect a reasonably competent cladding contractor to be familiar with the guidance here given for specified locations in terms of cavity barriers
00:47:03 barriers yes and
00:47:07 yes and we can see below that we've got diagram 33
00:47:10 33 which gives guidance as to where cavity barriers we can just scroll down the page
00:47:19 and look at diagram 33 in its entirety yes so here we've got um guidance within this document about the location of cavity
00:47:30 document about the location of cavity barriers
00:47:32 barriers and then if we go and we can see that they include that guidance includes can you see
00:47:37 you see it says on the left close around openings
00:47:40 openings and you've got grey shading in the cavity there and also closed top of cavity
00:47:46 cavity further up that wall line do you see that yes
00:47:51 that yes and if we read on to paragraph 9.3 on the following page
00:48:00 we can see that it states there that cavity barriers should be provided to close the edges of carriage of cavities including around openings do you see that yes so again would would
00:48:12 do you see that yes so again would would you expect that the reasonably competent cladding contractor ought to have been aware of the guidance in diagram 33 and paragraph 9.3 about the need for cavity barriers
00:48:23 9.3 about the need for cavity barriers to close
00:48:24 to close including around openings yes
00:48:30 and also would you expect them to be aware of the guidance on closing the top of a cavity that's given in diagram 33 yes now turning to the guidance on functional requirement b4 in section 12
00:48:43 functional requirement b4 in section 12 of adb
00:48:44 of adb if we can go back to your report at this point in section 15 of your report on page 55
00:48:55 you have explained at 15.1 there that the building regulations and the applicable guidance document effectively gives three routes to compliance within regulation b4
00:49:07 compliance within regulation b4 um the limitation of external fire spread and you've explained in the first bullet
00:49:13 bullet what you describe and you can see this at the end of that text what you describe as the linear route
00:49:19 route so that's the guidance of 12.7 and clauses 12.6 to 12.9 of adb yes yes and then you've given guidance on what you call you're
00:49:30 guidance on what you call you're referring to in your report as the fire test
00:49:33 test route which is clause point five refers to
00:49:36 to the br135 document and bs 8414 testing and that's the fire test route yes yes and then um you have referred to the
00:49:48 and then um you have referred to the fact that
00:49:49 fact that much earlier in approved document b in the introductory paragraphs clause 0.30 allows fire safety engineering to be
00:49:57 be carried out and that that could involve a holistic view of the building which would be an alternative route to compliance is that correct yes
00:50:08 now in your opinion with the reasonably competent cladding contractor in the period we're concerned with 2012 to 2017 have been aware of both the linear route and
00:50:19 linear route and the the r1358414 testing route in section 12 of adb yes and in respect of that linear route would you expect the reasonably
00:50:30 would you expect the reasonably competent cladding contractor to understand that assessing whether an external cladding system would adequately resist the spread of fire over the walls required consideration of the fire performance of each of the
00:50:42 of the fire performance of each of the components of the cladding system including the particular type of panel and the insulation specified for the system
00:50:51 system yes yes
00:50:55 yes yes and would you also expect them to understand that the requirements of the linear route i think it follows from your previous answer but i just want to be clear
00:51:01 be clear that the the linear route was accumulative i compliance with only one of them was not sufficient correct yes now some questions now about the concept of
00:51:13 some questions now about the concept of desktop assessments as a route to compliance if we can looking staying with page 55 of your report and looking at paragraph 15.2
00:51:26 you you tell us there you say limited combustor combustibility is tested if following the national class system in table 7 a7 of adb in accordance with bs 476 part 11
00:51:39 bs 476 part 11 and then you explain what that requires and then you go on recognizing that materials of limited combustibility were not always used and considering it to be too onerous to require a system fire test
00:51:51 require a system fire test for every external wall type the building control alliance bca published their technical guidance note 18
00:51:58 18 first issued june 14 and then issued again in june 15. this is discussed in more detail in section 10.5 of the present report these documents suggested that a desktop
00:52:09 these documents suggested that a desktop study
00:52:10 study could be carried out by a competent fire specialist provided that it was based on an extrapolation from previous relevant fire testing so you you explain to us the genesis of
00:52:23 so you you explain to us the genesis of that desktop study route and at 15.3 below that you say from my experience there was awareness within the cladding industry of these alternatives however on
00:52:36 these alternatives however on considering what cladding contractors in particular would have been aware of my opinion is that they would have been mostly aware of either the linear route or the fire test or death study routes i
00:52:48 or the fire test or death study routes i do not think they would have normally been aware of the fire safety engineering route as this would not have been common on the sort of buildings worked upon by uk cladding contractors
00:53:02 now can you just help us um as to how it was that cladding contractors were aware of the possibility of doing a desktop study as a distinct route of compliance
00:53:13 route of compliance in the relevant period despite it not being identified separately in adb is that solely because of bca technical guidance note 18 or was there more gen more general
00:53:25 or was there more gen more general awareness in the industry about desktop assessments well i think it probably originated from technical guidance note 18 but um following that i i think the
00:53:36 but um following that i i think the concept of a desktop study seemed to me to be
00:53:39 to be quite quite common um but it must have originated from that note number 18. yes yeah and when you say the concept was quite common
00:53:50 was quite common um sorry commonly known yes were you aware of many buildings where the desktop routes um was followed yes i think i think it
00:54:02 um was followed yes i think i think it was not on it was because not every building was fire tested and because not every building followed the linear route the the idea of desktop
00:54:14 the linear route the the idea of desktop study
00:54:15 study as an alternative was not uncommon and uh yes i am aware of some yes no sorry can i just interrupt to ask this
00:54:27 this why was it not uh reasonably feasible for people to follow the linear route if they couldn't follow the fire test route i mean why was it necessary to
00:54:38 was it necessary to embark on desktop study route at all well it's interesting um because
00:54:47 if um it may be the testing can show that materials which wouldn't satisfy the linear route could nevertheless be used
00:54:58 nevertheless be used in the in the system for example it may be
00:55:03 be within certain constraints that in that insulation which was combustible or partly combustible used in a certain way could nevertheless
00:55:16 used in a certain way could nevertheless pass the test um and therefore one didn't have to to to go the linear route um and so the desktop study was was a way of saying okay
00:55:29 was was a way of saying okay uh if the condition i've got is is rather similar to one which has already passed the test then then um a specialist could say well yes it's
00:55:41 a specialist could say well yes it's going to be all right then although he could also he could presumably have chosen to follow the linear route yes they could have done there was some presumably some economic
00:55:52 there was some presumably some economic interest in not doing that yes i mean firstly
00:55:57 the the cost doing fire testing is relatively costly
00:56:05 and i i guess interestingly the the they wanted to use certain products and they wouldn't have been able to use certain products if they'd had to follow
00:56:16 certain products if they'd had to follow the linear route because they didn't comply
00:56:20 comply yes thank you yes and i think in terms of that last answer you're thinking particularly of insulation products which
00:56:27 which wouldn't have satisfied the limited combustibility requirement in 12.7 is that right yes yes
00:56:35 can you just help us i i think it follows from some of the answers you gave earlier about the complexity of projects but um why it was that the fire engine the fire safety engineering route
00:56:48 engine the fire safety engineering route a bespoke engineering route would not have been common on the sort of buildings worked on by uk clouding contractors well it's it's uh as i understand it and i'm not
00:56:59 i'm not uh i i it's quite an uncommon thing to do yeah and it tends to be used on complex buildings which don't have regular walls or regular facades
00:57:12 regular walls or regular facades and generally speaking it it involves a level of sophistication which would not have been appropriate to the sort of
00:57:23 the sort of more routine cladding projects done in the uk
00:57:27 the uk yes yeah now if we turn to page 59 of your report now paragraph 17.2 you set out here for us helpfully um the
00:57:39 you set out here for us helpfully um the text of clause 12.5 of approved document b
00:57:43 b which reads the external envelope of a building should not provide a medium for fire spread if it is likely to be a risk to health and safety the use of combustible materials in the cladding system and extensive cavities
00:57:54 cladding system and extensive cavities may present such a risk in tall buildings so those are the introductory words to 12.5 of adb and you say at the beginning of the next paragraph as written this clause acts as a general
00:58:08 as written this clause acts as a general introduction to the requirements now appreciating what you say there about it being a general introduction to what follows in section 12. in your opinion would the reasonably
00:58:19 in your opinion would the reasonably competent cladding contractor also have read this as a health warning which should have been born clearly in mind when the reader was considering the paragraphs which did follow from
00:58:31 the paragraphs which did follow from 12.5
00:58:32 12.5 yes yep
00:58:37 yes yep and can you help us what weight or priority ought to have been given to that text there of 12.5 when considering the paragraphs that follow in in your view
00:58:49 in in your view well
00:58:52 i think what the way i would read this well the way i think most practitioners in the industry would have read this is that this is of an introductory nature it says
00:59:04 of an introductory nature it says that the use of combustible materials may present such a risk it then goes on to specify in more detail in the following clauses what the specific
00:59:15 specific requirements were for the external skins of the building and the insulation and cavity barriers and so on so i think those more detailed requirements in the mind of the reader
00:59:27 requirements in the mind of the reader would have outweighed the more general introductory requirements of 12.5 right yeah
00:59:37 now if we look at the top of page 52 of your report we can see um if we go to that page there that you were asked some questions by the inquiry
00:59:48 by the inquiry about the awareness and understanding within the cladding industry of certain matters
00:59:53 matters including national class naught the european
00:59:57 european classification regime that's en 13501 and the bs 8414 test route with the br135 criteria now just focusing for a moment on the
01:00:09 now just focusing for a moment on the understanding within the industry of the european
01:00:12 european classifications and the national classifications including national class naught if we look at page one page on page 53 of your report in um 14.9 at the bottom of that page
01:00:28 in um 14.9 at the bottom of that page you say
01:00:31 bs 13501 gives the euro norm classifications for resistance to fire as discussed above it uses different test test methods from those in bs8414 parts one and two
01:00:44 from those in bs8414 parts one and two and also the classifications are different and then you say this in my experience uk clouding contractors during the period being assessed would not have been familiar with the en
01:00:55 would not have been familiar with the en classifications and they would normally have referred to class naught manufacturers would probably have had a better understanding of the en classifications but would have tailored their approach
01:01:07 but would have tailored their approach in the uk to what the uk industry was familiar with so would have referred mostly to class naught
01:01:15 naught now when you say there that the uk cladding contractors would normally have referred to class naught do you mean that the reasonably competent cladding contractor would have been more familiar with the
01:01:27 would have been more familiar with the national classifications rather than the european ones yes can you help us as to why that was the position in your opinion i think it was just
01:01:38 in your opinion i think it was just because um of history i mean class naught predated uh from the uk perspective class naught predated
01:01:48 predated the en classifications and people hadn't quite absorbed the en classifications yet um i think i think in the last five years it's probably
01:01:59 years it's probably changed it changed or changing and things are a little bit different now but at that time people were still very much talking about class nord yeah because that's what they were familiar with historically yeah yeah
01:02:12 with historically yeah yeah we know however that diagram 40 of uh approved document b does refer to the european classification so class b class c as well as the national
01:02:23 class c as well as the national classifications and that's correct isn't it yes and were you aware that under uk procurement rules specifications for public projects were required to be couched in terms of
01:02:35 were required to be couched in terms of european standards to allow competition from european contractors yes now taking those points into consideration would you agree that the reasonably competent cladding contractor
01:02:47 reasonably competent cladding contractor ought to have been familiar with the european classifications over the period 2012 to 2017.
01:02:59 well this is interesting because you're talking about european procurement rules and i i suspect that the sort of projects we're talking about may it may have come below the threshold of requiring
01:03:12 below the threshold of requiring european procurement i i i requiring the european program rules to apply i'm not sure but should they have been familiar with those
01:03:23 those en standards um again some would have been some won't i i can't say whether i can't say
01:03:34 won't i i can't say whether i can't say they should have been right even though approved document b is itself referring to those european classifications in diagram 40. yes it does but it also returns to class zero and they probably
01:03:45 returns to class zero and they probably would have thought well that's good enough if it refers to class zero we'll deal with that yes and in your opinion did that position
01:03:53 position change i mean you alluded to the fact that there have has been an evolution in terms of everybody's thinking but um thinking of the position say in 2012 in contrast the position in
01:04:04 in contrast the position in say 2015 would you have expected there to have been more awareness three years later yes there was a growing awareness yes and i i would say yes it's been
01:04:15 yes and i i would say yes it's been growing since then as well yeah so can we agree that there that there would have come a point between 2012 and 2017 when the reasonably competent cladding contractor would have been expected
01:04:27 would have been expected to have at least some familiarity with the european classification system yes yes and can you help us to i know that's a difficult question but
01:04:38 i know that's a difficult question but roughly when in time you think that ought to have been the case
01:04:46 i can't really understand that
01:04:51 now you say at paragraph 14 11 of your report on page 54 this is staying with the class naught point you say i think that most cladding contractors considered that class naught
01:05:02 contractors considered that class naught referred broadly to a fire rating with an emphasis on the surface spread of flame and that is what i would have expected from a reasonably competent cladding contractor
01:05:13 cladding contractor however in my experience that did not apply to all and occasionally i have come across confusion
01:05:19 confusion between the idea of class naught and general
01:05:22 general combustibility so you say there that you have occasionally encountered confusion between that concept of class naught and general combustibility
01:05:34 general combustibility can i just clarify precisely what you mean when you're referring to confusion do you mean that some cladding contractors thought that class naught meant that a product would be
01:05:48 non-combustible um i wouldn't go as far as to say that they thought it was non-combustible but they
01:05:56 they they thought it conferred some uh some sense of not of limited combustibility i would say yes and you're using the word limited
01:06:07 yes and you're using the word limited combustibility not in the technical sense there but in a more general sense is that right yes yes yes
01:06:13 yes so say reduced combustibility would that be
01:06:17 be yes yes was there a perception in the cladding industry that class naught was of relevance to a product's combustibility that a class naught product would not
01:06:28 that a class naught product would not burn
01:06:29 burn or would not burn badly i think it was perceived that class naught
01:06:36 naught was essentially relating to a surface property of the product although we know that it's a combination of a surface flame test and an another kind of test um
01:06:50 an another kind of test um but i think to take your term there was a perception that it implied that it would not burn badly yes yes
01:07:00 yes yes and can you help us as to how that perception had come about what was it that had led people to uh believe that a class naught product would not burn
01:07:12 a class naught product would not burn badly
01:07:18 well interestingly it was it was the only
01:07:22 only uh fire requirement for for cladding materials
01:07:26 materials um that was in the adb yes you mean in in 12.6 in diagram in diagram 40. as far as the external
01:07:38 surface was concerned um and so it was probably perceived that that was the fire requirement and therefore it was perceived that that
01:07:50 and therefore it was perceived that that was
01:07:51 was implying that the cladding of a building wouldn't burn so as to cause a problem yes yes now you've referred to two educational
01:08:02 now you've referred to two educational courses
01:08:03 courses provided by the cwct that's the center for women
01:08:06 for women i'm sorry to interrupt you very good my mind's
01:08:15 as far as you know did people in the cladding industry understand that class naught was essentially uh relating to these properties of the
01:08:27 uh relating to these properties of the surface
01:08:28 surface of a material or possible i think aligning
01:08:32 aligning material not to this to the body of material
01:08:36 material yes that that's what was um what i've said is that um most people i think understood that
01:08:47 um most people i think understood that but i i'm not saying everyone did and i and i've come across people who perceived that it was some sort of more general fire resistant classification
01:08:58 fire resistant classification but the fact that you think that most people were aware of its true
01:09:04 true relevance might be taken to suggest that a reasonably competent planning contractor would be aware of that yes is that your
01:09:15 would be aware of that yes is that your obvious yes that's my view yeah that's helpful thank you yes no no no it's very helpful thank you um so you've referred to two educational courses provided by the
01:09:26 courses provided by the the center for window and cladding technology the cwct and you've referred to those at paragraph seven point 7.4.2.2 on page 31 of your report if we can just look at that
01:09:42 so um there you're you're talking about some of the short courses with that and this was
01:09:48 this was this is relevant to cwct made reference to fire matters um but the main courses wherein fire matters were covered in more detail were and then you give details of the two courses
01:09:59 courses where fire matters were covered in more detail
01:10:02 detail now the first of those is course c101 the standard for systemized building envelopes principles and specification and that was a two-day course which was given between 2007
01:10:13 given between 2007 and 2010 you tell us there and it included a lecture entitled fire now i just want to look at the lecture material from that fire section that's at cwct 5079
01:10:29 that's at cwct 5079 cwct 5079 at page four
01:10:35 so there is the the five
01:10:39 yes so sorry there is the the class naught section of this fire lecture so this is a lecture given just be clear again between 2007 and 2010 so earlier than the period we're looking
01:10:51 so earlier than the period we're looking at
01:10:52 at and we can see this slide here which is called class naught and it says class naught is not a classification in a british standard method of test it is defined in the building
01:11:03 it is defined in the building regulations which makes use of bs performance ratings to limit both and then it's got spread of cl flame across the surface of a material or product bs476 part seven and the the rate of
01:11:15 bs476 part seven and the the rate of heat released from it that's bs476 part six
01:11:21 and um can we agree here that any person who was um the recipient of this course material uh would have realized that there was no reference to combustibility
01:11:32 reference to combustibility in the definition here it's about surface spread of flame and the rate of heat release yes yes
01:11:41 and below that is the phrase it is another bullet that's that reads such material stroke products are generally required to be non-combustible or to have a class
01:11:53 non-combustible or to have a class 1 surface spread of flame now can i just check how do you read that do you read that as suggesting that it's class naught materials or products were generally required to
01:12:05 or products were generally required to be non-combustible or have a class 1 surface spread of flame yes but i would also say that the definition of class naught requires a class 1 surface spreader flame plus a certain rating in terms of
01:12:19 plus a certain rating in terms of heat release in accordance with part six exactly
01:12:22 exactly yes yes thank you
01:12:26 and then if we can turn to the second course that you've referred to in your report if we go back to page 31 of your report 7.4.2.2 you've referred to
01:12:36 to a course cwdc curtin wall design and construction for building professionals that was a four-day course given from 2007 onwards so again
01:12:47 2007 onwards so again several years before the period we've particularly looked at and included a lecture entitled fire performance of facades and if we can look at the slides for that lecture that's at cwct
01:13:00 that lecture that's at cwct 5083
01:13:03 we can see that this is a lecture called the fire performance of facades and if we turn to page six
01:13:15 we can see a slide entitled spread of flame this time
01:13:23 time um and it refers to um class naught do you see that there in the first bs476 and then if we go on to page 7 we can see exactly the same
01:13:36 7 we can see exactly the same information is given about the nature of class naught precisely what is tested and that they're generally required to
01:13:47 and that they're generally required to be non-combustible or have a class one surface spread of flame yes yes so bearing those course materials from the cwct in mind and just to be absolutely clear about your evidence
01:14:00 absolutely clear about your evidence and i think this follows from your answer to the the chairman's questions but i'm going to pose it nevertheless do you consider that a reasonably competent cladding contractor ought not to have been confused as between
01:14:12 not to have been confused as between class naught and the combustibility of a material or product
01:14:16 product correct yes thank you
01:14:22 mr chairman just looking at the time i'm about to move to um different topic which is about other key industry guides you'd like to have a break at that point documents yes please
01:14:33 break at that point documents yes please this would be a good moment all right exactly you probably know we have a break during the morning in the afternoon
01:14:38 afternoon and this is a good time to take it so we shall
01:14:42 shall take it now uh we'll resume at half past eleven
01:14:45 eleven and i think i should say the same to you as i said to others please don't discuss your evidence with anyone uh while you're out of the room all right thank you very much would you like to give the option thank you
01:15:06 i first love them
01:31:30 yes would you ask mr sackler to come back in please
01:31:46 all right mister we're ready to carry on yes thanks good thanks yes ms granger yes thank you yes mr secular can i just add something just before you kick off yes please um i was thinking about an answer i gave to
01:31:58 i was thinking about an answer i gave to a question earlier when you were asking me about
01:32:01 me about what date there was a the sort of transition took place between the knowledge of the class zero and the the
01:32:10 the um the more the urinal approach yes um and and i was thinking it's probably more like 2017 right and the reason i say that is is because i i remember
01:32:21 because i i remember during the break that the csw ct had published a technical note yes the beginning of 2017 yes which made a comparison between
01:32:32 comparison between the the euro norms and the british standards yes classifications so that would have been around the time when there was a growing awareness yes yes is that a technical guidance note 98
01:32:43 note 98 yes yes yeah and i'll take you to that guideline oh okay at some point yes no no but that's extremely helpful thank you yes um so i now want to ask you some questions about
01:32:54 questions about some of the industry guidance documents that you consider in your report and which are relevant to the knowledge that a reasonably competent cladding contractor would have had in the relevant period and if we could start with the br135
01:33:07 and if we could start with the br135 publication um that that is referred to as we know in clause
01:33:13 in clause 12.5 of adb and if we turn to page 41 of your report paragraph 10.3.2
01:33:28 you say um
01:33:31 well actually let's pick it up at 10.3.1 br135 is a report by the building research establishment entitled fire performance of external thermal insulation for walls of multi-storey buildings
01:33:42 for walls of multi-storey buildings following the first edition dated 1988 there was a second edition in 2003 and a third edition dated 2013 and then you go on in the next paragraph br135 third edition contains two annexes
01:33:55 br135 third edition contains two annexes a
01:33:56 a and b setting out in detail the method by which fire performance results of testing
01:34:02 testing to bs 841 parts one and two may be classified and then you make clear then in parenthesis the second edition had contained only annex a dealing with
01:34:13 had contained only annex a dealing with masonry backing walls since at the time of publication 8414 part 2 had not been published and you go on it is these performance criteria which are specifically
01:34:24 criteria which are specifically referenced in adb2 clause 12.5 and that gives br135 great importance in assessing the question of compliance with adb2 now
01:34:37 adb2 now um so in a nutshell would it be fair to say that you attribute great importance to the br135 document
01:34:46 document in large part because it is expressly referred to in paragraph 12.5 of approved document b yes and you then go on and say this at 10.3.3 just below that
01:34:58 10.3.3 just below that i would expect most specialist cladding contractors in the period january 2012 to june 2017 to have been aware of the existence of br135 second or third edition
01:35:10 br135 second or third edition because of its reference in clause 12.5 of adb
01:35:14 of adb i would imagine however that most of them would not have read it or understood exactly how the tests were classified some of the more conscientious and technically aware specialists
01:35:25 technically aware specialists would probably have studied br135 and so would have had a better understanding of how the classifications were made so in that paragraph you are explaining
01:35:37 so in that paragraph you are explaining the extent to which you think in fact specialist cladding contractors would or would not have read and studied that document br135 focusing now on what a reasonably
01:35:49 focusing now on what a reasonably competent
01:35:50 competent cladding contractor would have done if involved in an overcladding project like grenfell tower in your opinion would a reasonably competent specialist cladding contractor
01:36:01 competent specialist cladding contractor have read the main guidance in br135 not the annexes but the main guidance in that document even if they would not have understood precisely the tests or their classifications
01:36:14 well it's as i've said in my report i i i think the more conscientious technical people would have done
01:36:28 would i i i wouldn't like to say that i would have expected all reasonably competent client contractors to have read it yes i i simply say that i would have
01:36:40 i i simply say that i would have expected them to have been aware of its existence
01:36:44 existence right i mean would it be fair to say that as far as the cladding contract is concerned
01:36:49 concerned he needs to be aware of what you called earlier the fire test approach but he didn't need to be aware of the
01:37:00 of the complexities or the details of it because either he was going to be presented with a document from somebody well qualified to say it has passed the
01:37:12 well qualified to say it has passed the s8414br135 requirements oh he's not yes so for him the no doubt interesting technical aspects of br 135 weren't
01:37:24 technical aspects of br 135 weren't really essential to get on top of it yes i think i think that's
01:37:29 that's what i i would agree with that um it's not to say that there's a lot of good information in br135 um it's just that um
01:37:42 i wouldn't say that i would condemn them for not having read it all that's that's the word yes
01:37:53 that's that's the word yes yes all right yes thank you yes just following on from that it's right isn't it the br135 contains a lot of general information
01:38:06 contains a lot of general information about external fire spread and and the risks posed by it as well as technical detail about the testing and the classifications of the testing yes yes if we just look at br135
01:38:19 yes if we just look at br135 the third edition for a moment so this is the one dated 2013. it's a bre uh four zeros then um four fives so zero zero zero zero five
01:38:31 four fives so zero zero zero zero five five five
01:38:32 five five five and if we go to the next page we can see there it is the third edition fire performance of external thermal insulation for walls of multi-storey buildings and if we turn to page 13
01:38:51 here we can see a diagram giving it's bigger three mechanisms for external fire spread by way of the external cladding system
01:39:04 external cladding system and we can see it's graphically illustrating there what can happen where you get flaming on or near the facade and the ways in which that can break out and then spread up the facade and break
01:39:17 and then spread up the facade and break back in
01:39:18 back in yes yes
01:39:21 and then um on page 14 the next page there are a number of warnings
01:39:30 warnings so if we look at section 3.3 here interaction with the external envelope if we pick it up um three lines down in
01:39:41 if we pick it up um three lines down in that paragraph it says once flames begin to impinge upon the external fabric of the building from either an internal or an external source there is the potential for the external cladding system to become
01:39:52 external cladding system to become involved
01:39:53 involved and to contribute to the external fire spread up the building by the following routes and then a number of routes are identified immediately below that we see
01:40:04 see 3.3.1 surface propagation the reactant to fire characteristics of the materials used within the external cladding system will influence the rate of fire spread
01:40:15 the rate of fire spread up the building envelope by way of the surface of the external cladding system and then below that we can see it says 3.3.2 cavities cavities may be incorporated within the
01:40:27 cavities may be incorporated within the external system or maybe formed by the delamination or differential movement of the system in a fire
01:40:36 in a fire and then reading on in that right hand bottom column if flames become confined or restricted by entering cavities within the external cladding system they will become elongated as they seek
01:40:48 they will become elongated as they seek oxygen and fuel to support the combustion process this process can lead to flame extension of five to ten times that of the original flame lengths regardless of the materials used to line the cavities
01:40:59 the cavities this may enable fire to spread rapidly unseen through the external cladding system
01:41:05 system if appropriate fire barriers have not been provided now appreciating what you've said about whether a reasonably competent cladding contractor should have read
01:41:16 contractor should have read this document in any detail concentrating on those particular features that i just took you to and those warnings about the potential for external fire spread including in
01:41:29 external fire spread including in cavities would you have expected a reasonably competent cladding contractor to have appreciated those potential features uh of fire spreading in cladding systems
01:41:42 of fire spreading in cladding systems yes i would yes so even though they may not have read this cover to cover you would have expected them to have been aware of uh those features including for example flame
01:41:53 flame elongation in cavities i think the specific
01:41:57 specific example of slave elongation is quite specialized and it's possible they wouldn't have been aware of that but the other points made about the the potential for fire to travel through up and around the
01:42:09 fire to travel through up and around the external
01:42:10 external cladding system i i think they would have understood that but specifically about flaming elongation perhaps not yes and when you say they would have understood that should they have
01:42:21 understood that should they have understood that if they were embarking on a cladding project of uh the like of grenfell tower yes yes
01:42:30 now going back to your report at page 41 section 10.3 you say at 10.3.3 there you say i would
01:42:42 you say at 10.3.3 there you say i would expect most cladding contractors in the period january sorry we've just read this um and you say that most would have not not have read or understood exactly how the tests were classified some more
01:42:53 tests were classified some more conscientious would probably have studied it now focusing now on the tests under bs8414 and how they were classified according to br135
01:43:04 according to br135 do you consider that the reasonably competent cladding contractor or at least someone within its organization should have understood how the tests were classified under br135 i.e that there was pass fail criteria
01:43:19 i.e that there was pass fail criteria i i'm sure they would have known they were past failed criteria but they may not have known the details of how they were arrived at right but all later have understood that
01:43:31 right but all later have understood that um once tested to bl 84 to bs8414 they would then need to be a separate process of classification of the system under br135
01:43:43 of the system under br135 yes because it i mean that's what adb2 says
01:43:47 says yes and
01:43:51 yes and how much should that reasonably competent cladding contractor have understood about um how those classifications were were arrived at in relation to the
01:44:04 system well as i said i don't think they would have
01:44:09 have understood the details of how those particular classifications were arrived at
01:44:14 at right but would they have understood that
01:44:17 that there would be um a mechanism for assessing
01:44:21 assessing the extent of flame spread across that facade as part of that system as part of that classification examination yes i mean to be clear um as i
01:44:32 yes i mean to be clear um as i understand it br 135 talks about parcel failure yes uh rather than classification um and they they would have understood that it's
01:44:41 that it's it's a it's a fire test i'm not sure it was specifically about flame spread only it was it was an overall fire test yes and it's about temperature rise et
01:44:52 yes and it's about temperature rise et cetera there's other aspects of it yes so to what extent would they have had an understanding of what you would need to do to pass that fire test
01:45:06 they would have had an understanding that a test needed to be carried out on a full-scale sample yes um they may not have understood
01:45:18 yes um they may not have understood the requirement the the the the pass fail criteria relating to a certain temperature being reached at a certain height above the fire
01:45:27 fire yeah they may not have understood that specifically but they would run they would advance to the general principle that it was a full-scale fire test yes that's helpful thank you looking at page 49 of your report now we
01:45:40 looking at page 49 of your report now we can see at the top of the page you were asked some questions uh and you've set them out at the very top of the page about the extent to which it
01:45:51 the page about the extent to which it was common for specialist cladding contractors to request fire test evidence from manufacturers or suppliers of cladding products and we can see further down the page at
01:46:03 and we can see further down the page at sub question b on that page you were asked how common was it for specialist cladding designers or contractors to ask manufacturers of cladding products for information
01:46:14 products for information relating to their fire test performance in addition to that contained in publicly available product literature do you see that yes and you answer at 12.2 below that
01:46:26 and you answer at 12.2 below that you say this you say i cannot answer this question directly as i'm unsure how common it would have been in practice for cladding designers or contractors to seek further fire test
01:46:37 contractors to seek further fire test information however i would have expected them to seek further information if their proposed system did not conform exactly to the system for which any test
01:46:48 exactly to the system for which any test certificate was issued so do you agree that it would be important that cladding contractors did understand enough about br 135 and 8414 testing
01:47:01 enough about br 135 and 8414 testing to be able to assess whether their system
01:47:05 system conformed to the system for which a test certificate had been issued
01:47:12 yes i i was in writing this i was thinking more about the bba certificate um and and that rather than
01:47:24 um and and that rather than any certificate produced by the test house if you like because they don't they just give a report rather than a certificate yes um but i all i'm saying here
01:47:35 um but i all i'm saying here is that if the tested system matched exactly what was being proposed to be built i wouldn't expect them to go back and
01:47:46 i wouldn't expect them to go back and question
01:47:48 question the the the test whereas if there were some variation being proposed
01:47:55 proposed then i would expect them to to be questioning more what was the original test based on yeah and would you expect them to understand that if going down the br135 8414
01:48:06 that if going down the br135 8414 route their system needed to replicate precisely the system that was tested yes yes so they'd need to know that much yeah
01:48:19 now um another set of guidance documents that you refer to are bs quadruple nine from 2008 and bs
01:48:30 are bs quadruple nine from 2008 and bs triple nine one from 2011 and if we look at page 40 of your report paragraph 10.2.3
01:48:42 you helpfully explain here that these codes of practice contain information covering a range of topics relating to fire taking bs triple nine one as an example there are ten sections
01:48:54 there are ten sections for the purposes of a cladding contractor the important part in my opinion is section 6 covering design for construction this section repeats much information from adb2 but is not
01:49:06 information from adb2 but is not identical
01:49:07 identical for example clause 29.2 is headed external fire spread over the external faces of buildings among other things it states and then
01:49:18 among other things it states and then you've
01:49:19 you've given us the quote from bs triple nine one it says this i control of flame spread is particularly important where a stay put strategy is in place combustible materials should
01:49:31 is in place combustible materials should not be used in cladding systems and extensive cavities
01:49:37 cavities so you've noted that there's that particular piece of guidance in bs triple nine one which we don't have in
01:49:44 have in adb2 yes yes let's look at that in bs triple nine one this is in the 2015 version which we find at bsi six zeros 59
01:50:01 we can see the full title of that british standards institute publication fire safety in the design management and use of residential buildings code of practice
01:50:12 practice and then on section 18.2 on page 86
01:50:20 we can see if we read just the first few paragraphs under 18.2 that's headed external fire spread over the external faces of buildings it states that external walls should be
01:50:32 it states that external walls should be constructed using a material that does not support fire spread and therefore endanger people in or around the building flames spread over or within an external wall construction should be controlled
01:50:43 wall construction should be controlled to avoid creating a route for rapid fire spread bypassing compartment floors or walls
01:50:49 or walls and then there's a note 1 it says there this is particularly important where a stay put strategy is in place
01:50:58 now based on your experience would a reasonably competent cladding contractor have an awareness of and an understanding of this part of bs triple nine one
01:51:10 bs triple nine one um i don't think they would have been aware of this particular part in in a general sense right i i i do think
01:51:20 think had it been referred to in their specification or contract documents uh they should have they would have been made aware of it uh that
01:51:30 that in that way but in a general sense i don't think they would have been aware of this
01:51:35 of this yes and more generally would they understand what a stay put strategy was and its significance in the context of external facade design
01:51:48 external facade design it's i i it's impo i can't really say right uh you would have thought so but i i'm speculating about what a third part yes no i understood by something i understand i don't know but but to your knowledge
01:52:01 i don't know but but to your knowledge was was a stay put strategy something that was
01:52:04 that was understood in the cladding industry between 2012 and 2017 in terms of what that meant
01:52:16 that meant i i can't answer categorically but i i i would say on the balance of probabilities probably yes yeah okay yeah
01:52:26 yeah and and you suggested um 10.2 10.2.5 at page 41 of your report actually we don't need to go to it but actually there it is on the screen
01:52:37 actually there it is on the screen um that you would expect i think this is follows from what you've just said you expect a clouding contractor to be aware of the existence of bs triple 9 1 and bs quadruple 9 but not to be
01:52:48 quadruple 9 but not to be familiar with their contents yes yes mainly because as i've said because much of the information in fact most of the information is a
01:53:00 in fact most of the information is a repeat of the requirements of adb2 yeah they they probably wouldn't have thought it's particularly significant to read these in detail yeah so would it only be where
01:53:12 detail yeah so would it only be where their specific contract documents had that as a listed specification that you would expect them to consult it yes yeah
01:53:24 yes and you make that point at 10.2.5 on page 41. it's there in front of us you say picking up three lines down however if the documents were specifically referenced in the cladding
01:53:36 specifically referenced in the cladding contractors contract or the specification i would expect the cladding contractor to have referred to them and in particular to have read clauses and then you give particular clauses which are relevant to external
01:53:47 clauses which are relevant to external flame spread in those documents in your experience were these british standards routinely included in a cladding contractors contract or were
01:53:58 cladding contractors contract or were they
01:53:59 they routinely omitted
01:54:04 from memory i would say it was typical to
01:54:07 to include them
01:54:12 yeah just thinking more generally and not specifically about about these british standards but more generally about guidance would you expect the reasonably competent cladding contractor who
01:54:24 competent cladding contractor who subcontracts some or all of their work package
01:54:27 package say the design element say that's subcontracted to another contractor would you expect them to have referred that subcontractor to any guidance documents
01:54:38 subcontractor to any guidance documents or standards that were in the contractor's contract sorry could you say the first part of your question yes so so where you have a reasonably competent
01:54:49 where you have a reasonably competent cladding contractor who subcontracts some or all of their package of work say including the design element
01:54:56 element yes to another party would you have expected them to have referred the subcontractor to any guidance documents or standards that were
01:55:05 that were in the contractor's contract yes yes thank you
01:55:10 thank you and would you expect the reasonably competent cladding contractor to have a system
01:55:15 system to ensure that these were appropriately considered by the relevant subcontractor yes
01:55:23 and would you also expect the cladding contractor to have a supervisory system to ensure that the work produced was compliant with statutory compliance as well as any relevant guidance
01:55:34 as well as any relevant guidance documents or standards
01:55:38 yes so some form of checking regime which went beyond simply ensuring that a subcontracted designer kept to program
01:55:49 program yes yes yeah
01:55:53 and what steps would you expect the reasonably competent cladding subcontractor to undertake to ensure supervision sorry i'll start that question again what
01:56:04 i'll start that question again what steps would you take would you expect the reasonably competent cladding contractor to undertake to ensure supervision of a design
01:56:12 design subcontractor was adequate from a technical perspective
01:56:23 i think they would have to
01:56:27 list from the specification the the key elements that had to be met um and also
01:56:38 met um and also go over the the the the requirements for building regulations that had to be met and produce some sort of checklist i suppose yes
01:56:48 yes um and then when the design came back they would have to check that they can conform with that checklist yes thank you yes that's helpful now just staying with the general topic
01:57:01 now just staying with the general topic of
01:57:02 of guidance industry guidance now um turning to guidance produced by the cwct the center for windows and cladding technology
01:57:13 if we go to page 42 of your report paragraph 10.4.2
01:57:21 you tell us that that the cwct has in 2020
01:57:27 2020 more than 350 members comprising mainly architects consultants main contractors specialist contractors suppliers and manufacturers of these specialist contractors
01:57:38 of these specialist contractors represent about 40 of the membership which is a significant proportion so that's what you tell us there about membership of the cwct just in more
01:57:51 membership of the cwct just in more general terms how well known was the cwct amongst cladding contractors in the period 2012 to 2017 i would say it was very well known
01:58:03 i would say it was very well known yes and and what were the reasons why it was very well known well because um it was it was the it was a it was a technical
01:58:13 technical umbrella organization for the for the uk cladding industry um and it did all sorts of things it produced technical reports
01:58:24 produced technical reports it ran courses um and it it had an msc program in facade engineering a lot of people did that in the industry yes um i i
01:58:35 did that in the industry yes um i i would say it would be very surprising if if any cladding contractor wasn't aware of it yes um and um it was it was a central body for for the
01:58:46 it was it was a central body for for the uk
01:58:47 uk facade and claddy industry and does it follow that any guidance that was issued by the cwct was generally very closely looked at by cladding
01:58:58 very closely looked at by cladding contractors yes yeah now if the contract or specification for the project required compliance with the cwt standard for systemized
01:59:09 with the cwt standard for systemized building envelopes we know that that standard was dated september 2008. let's just pull it up on the screen so we can see it's at cwct
01:59:20 we can see it's at cwct 5046.
01:59:28 so that's the standard for systemized building envelopes it's dated the date's not on this front page but it's i can tell you it's dated 2008 and it has part six fire performance uh within it as you can
01:59:40 fire performance uh within it as you can see on that front page now um if the contract or specification for the project require compliance with this standard do you agree that any reasonably
01:59:51 do you agree that any reasonably competent cladding contractor would read and seek to understand that standard including part six fire performance yes
02:00:01 [Applause] and you you've told us we don't need to go to this that you've told us for the transcript this is at 10.4.4 on page 42 of your report that the cwct standard this one
02:00:13 that the cwct standard this one the standard for systemized building envelopes was most the most important document produced by the cwct is that correct yes i think so and can you explain
02:00:24 you explain why it was the most important well it was it was so it was wide-ranging uh firstly yeah they produce all sorts of technical notes and technical updates as well
02:00:35 as well but they were on very specific subjects this was quite a wide-ranging standard which covered the whole uh of of the facade um
02:00:46 uh of of the facade um but also in the absence of a of a british standard which covered the whole of the facade this became de facto the british standard
02:00:55 standard yeah and would you have said that most reasonably competent cladding contractors would have thought of this as effectively akin to a british standard in this field
02:01:07 standard in this field yes yeah
02:01:10 and just to be clear so it was more important than for example there was a guide to good practice for facades which was published by the cwct in
02:01:19 in 1996 and reprinted in 2002 yes
02:01:26 yes i would have thought this is more important yes because it's more wide-ranging and comprehensive yes yeah and and the point is this had the status of a standard
02:01:38 the status of a standard whereas guide to good practice is doesn't have quite that same formality yes i understand there was also a standard for walls with
02:01:49 there was also a standard for walls with ventilated rain screens published in july 1998 are you aware of that cwct publication yes yes but again you'd still say this was the most important one
02:02:00 one yes and if we go to your report now at page
02:02:03 page 42 where you're dealing with this cwct the systemized building envelope standard
02:02:11 standard you tell us at paragraph 10.4.5 so if we just scroll down a little bit so
02:02:18 so you say the overall standard known for short as the cwct standard was very well known to practitioners in the cladding industry
02:02:25 industry in the absence of a bs or en dealing with facades as a whole the cwt standard became the de facto standard for the uk facade industry which is evident from the fact that it was often referenced in specifications
02:02:38 was often referenced in specifications i would expect all cladding contractors to have been aware of its contents in detail
02:02:42 detail particularly those who were members of the cwct this expectation would have included part six dealing with fire performance
02:02:52 now if this was the effectively the de facto
02:02:56 facto standard can you explain to us how a reasonably competent cladding contractor would approach this guidance in comparison with the practical guidance that you get in adb
02:03:08 adb how would the two um sit alongside one another and what would be the weight given to to each by a competent clouding contractor it's interesting because adb2 is
02:03:20 it's interesting because adb2 is is itself a guidance document in effect it's guidance to how the requirements of the building regulations can be met yes um and i i think in terms of weight
02:03:33 and i i think in terms of weight the adb2 would have been considered to be the weightier document that was something that had to be complied with i think that's what it how it would have been perceived not least because that's what
02:03:45 not least because that's what the building control officer would have referred to as the the point of reference for compliance and although the cwct standard is more
02:03:57 and although the cwct standard is more comprehensive by longshot um the ad adb-2 would have carried more weight
02:04:03 weight in the contract in this cladding contractor's mind i think yes i understand
02:04:09 and then if we look at 10.4.7 also on page 42 that's further down
02:04:16 you explained that there was something called technical note 73 fire performance of curtain walls and rain screens was published in march 2011 and gives an important summary so this
02:04:29 and gives an important summary so this is
02:04:30 is as part of a technical note series and you say i would expect all cladding contractors to have been aware of its contents particularly those who were members of the cwct
02:04:41 members of the cwct and then you go on and and tell us some particularly important parts of um of that and we'll come back to that about
02:04:50 about insulation material um so you go on and highlight two particular excerpts from technical note 73
02:05:00 73 at in the top of that page 43 but to confirm is it your evidence that you would expect a cladding contractor to be familiar with the entire contents of technical note 73 not just these
02:05:11 of technical note 73 not just these warnings
02:05:13 warnings yes if we turn to that technical note 73 from march 2011 that's at cwct 5019
02:05:23 5019 at page yeah if we just turn up to the front page first there there we have it we can see the date in the bottom right hand corner march 2011 and
02:05:37 march 2011 and if we could look at page five
02:05:42 we can see in the bottom left-hand column of page five and over to the next column we can see a paragraph where it says cavity barriers may be tested following
02:05:53 cavity barriers may be tested following the principles of bs 476 part 20 or bsen 1366 part 4. tests are generally constructed with the barrier in a cavity between walls of fire resisting
02:06:07 a cavity between walls of fire resisting construction and performance with rain screen panels may be different do you see that there yes now would you expect the reasonably
02:06:18 now would you expect the reasonably competent cladding contractor to to have any familiarity with those test standards that i just read out there they're at the bottom of the left-hand column that was bs 476 part 20
02:06:30 column that was bs 476 part 20 and bs en 1366 part four those are fire resistance tests would you expect the reasonably competent cladding contractor to be to have any familiarity with those
02:06:41 to be to have any familiarity with those fire resistance tests no no
02:06:49 but just to be clear that that part that i then read out at the top of the right hand column where it says that
02:06:56 that tests are generally constructed with the barrier in a cavity between walls of fire resisting construction and performance with rain screen panels may be different you would have expected the reasonably
02:07:07 you would have expected the reasonably competent cladding contractor to have appreciated that would you yes yeah but that's that's intuitively obvious whether or not it's written here
02:07:20 yeah i appreciate you saying it's intuitive intuitively obvious yeah can you just explain that for us why you say that well because if they're differentiating between uh
02:07:31 between uh walls of fire resisting construction yes that's um
02:07:35 that's um you would expect that that behavior in fire to be different from that of a rain screen panel yes that's all yeah now going to your
02:07:47 that's all yeah now going to your conclusions of your report and staying with this the cwct standards this is page 67 and paragraph 20.14
02:07:59 so looking at 20.14
02:08:04 you tell us that the cwct based in bath is the main technical umbrella organization for facade technology in the uk
02:08:11 the uk i would expect all cladding contractors to have been aware of the contents of the cwct standard that's the standard for systemized building envelopes in detail
02:08:20 detail and to have been aware of the subjects covered by the cwct technical notes reading specific notes as required and you go on and say for example technical note
02:08:31 technical note 73
02:08:35 so just to be absolutely clear would it be fair to say that you would expect all reasonably competent cladding contractors to have considered both the cwtt
02:08:43 cwtt standard for systemized building envelopes and technical note 73 if they were designing it and over cladding of a say high-rise building
02:08:56 of a say high-rise building yes
02:09:00 and that would include throughout the period to 2012-2017 yes yes yeah
02:09:09 and can you just confirm to us that these cwt standards and the guidance was readily available on the cwct's website throughout that time
02:09:19 time the um it was available to members of the cwct
02:09:24 the cwct not not to the general public right um but the technical notes were available free of charge yes the standard um
02:09:35 i can't remember whether you had to pay for it or not but um
02:09:41 i'm not i can't remember whether that came with the charge or not it was a much more voluminous document but if you remember you would easily have access to it yes yes thank you the building control alliance now the
02:09:53 the building control alliance now the bca
02:09:53 bca i want to ask you now about bca technical guidance note 18. if we look at page 44 of your report paragraph 10.5.2
02:10:07 you say there in the light of perceived uncertainty about fire requirements for facades of buildings with a floor above 18 meters within the facade industry during the period being assessed the bca
02:10:20 during the period being assessed the bca published the following documents and then you give technical guidance note 18 issue naught june 2014 and issue one june 2015 and you tell us these documents are very
02:10:31 and you tell us these documents are very similar except that in issue one the 18 meter height is clarified as being to the highest floor rather than the height of the building also in issue one the option of a holistic
02:10:42 holistic fire engineering is introduced as a fourth option for showing compliance with adb2
02:10:48 with adb2 now going back to the first line of that paragraph
02:10:52 paragraph where you say that there was a perceived uncertainty about fire requirements which led to this bca publication can you just help us what precisely was the perceived uncertainty that you're
02:11:04 the perceived uncertainty that you're referring to there
02:11:08 um well i'm referring to the fact that section 12 of adb2 wasn't particularly clear in what it meant
02:11:20 what it meant right and it's your understanding is it that that it's that that then led to the bca entering the field and giving guidance in this way
02:11:32 and giving guidance in this way yes i would also add that um
02:11:37 i think also there must have been a and this is to some extent speculation but there was probably a bit of a backlash about the industry thinking well do we have to test every
02:11:49 test every facade for every condition and the bca came up with this idea of a desktop study as a means of getting around the fact
02:12:01 as a means of getting around the fact that not every system had to be tested so that
02:12:05 so that a an intelligent specialized assessor could say well the system you're proposing is sufficiently similar to the one that's been tested that will allow it to
02:12:16 that's been tested that will allow it to pass building control yes so i think it was probably in response to that
02:12:23 yes i understand pushback from the industry that that tgn 18 came out and were you actually aware of yourself at the time of some pushback within the industry
02:12:34 industry you began that answer by saying it's to some extent speculation were you aware that there was some pushback um
02:12:43 yes i i think i was aware yeah at the time yeah if we can look at that bca technical guidance note at bca701
02:12:53 at bca701 this is the the first issue which is issue naught dated june 2014. we can see that
02:13:00 that from the top right hand little box and we can see under the heading purpose that what it tells us is it says the bca
02:13:11 that what it tells us is it says the bca technical guidance notes are for the benefit of its members and the construction industry to provide information promote good practice and encourage consistency of interpretation for the benefit of our
02:13:23 interpretation for the benefit of our clients
02:13:25 clients so is it right and was it well understood that these guidance notes were intended for a broader audience than simply building control offices or members of the bca yes
02:13:40 or members of the bca yes and in your experience with the reasonably competent cladding contractor have been in receipt of updates from the building control alliance from the bca
02:13:51 alliance from the bca well yes as i've said in my reporter it's
02:13:54 it's it's hard to say for sure how they would have received this information certainly within the consultancy world i i think we were aware of this
02:14:07 i would imagine that the reasonably competent planning contractor would have been aware of it because it would have been in their interest to be aware of it um and
02:14:19 i i but i can't provide any actual evidence
02:14:23 evidence for how they would have been aware of it yes and just to be clear we don't need to turn it up in your report but as you've just referred to at paragraph 10.5.5 on page 44 you say
02:14:34 10.5.5 on page 44 you say you're unclear exactly how cladding contractors would have been alerted to their existence except by word of mouth among peers and through the relevant technical press yes is it possible that one example of
02:14:48 yes is it possible that one example of the way in which a cladding contractor may have become aware of this guidance is through for example
02:14:53 example updates published by the national house building council the nhbc yes if they included this this material in that yes yes let's look
02:15:04 this material in that yes yes let's look at an example if we can go to sig 50482
02:15:19 this is an article taken from the web which was published by we believe an organization called adjacent government and um we can see under the the picture
02:15:32 and um we can see under the the picture of the tall building it's headed combustible clouding material on residential buildings dated the 9th of february 2015 and here it says the building control alliance has recently published new guidance
02:15:43 guidance in respect of using combustible insulation materials to residential buildings over 18 meters in height steve evans at nhbc outlines what this means and
02:15:52 means and you can see if you go over to the second page um that it's got his name at the bottom
02:16:01 bottom steve evans senior area technical manager for the nhbc so this is an article that he's written and that's found its way onto this website
02:16:12 onto this website um is this the kind of update or article in the relevant technical press that you might expect a reasonably competent cladding contractor to receive which would draw their attention
02:16:23 their attention to the bca guidance yes yes and you tell us at paragraph 20.15 of your report on page
02:16:34 your report on page 667
02:16:36 667 um that in my opinion we don't need to turn up a reasonably competent cladding contractor working on tall buildings would have been aware of this through conversations with peers or communications from the cwct and would
02:16:48 communications from the cwct and would have read it
02:16:53 now
02:16:57 we've seen in your report that you're unclear as to exactly how contractors would have been alerted to the existence of
02:17:03 of it but but considering that can you just help us on what basis you've formed the view that a reasonably competent cladding contractor would have been aware of his existence and would have read it
02:17:27 to some extent it's it's a it's a sort of deduction from the fact that um the concept of a desktop study was well known at the time and
02:17:39 was well known at the time and this tgn-18 is the document that introduces that concept yes so uh one would assume that therefore people who talked about desktop studies
02:17:50 people who talked about desktop studies including cladding contractors must be aware of tgn 18. yes yes i understand that's it really yes
02:18:02 now finally i want to ask you about the labc
02:18:06 labc local authority building control another organization and you refer at paragraph um so on page 45 of your report if we could go to that now
02:18:17 now you refer at paragraph 10.7.1 to something called the labc warranty technical
02:18:25 technical manual and um you tell us that um
02:18:34 that there is a clause 7.7.2 there's a requirement there that curtain walling systems should have third-party certification
02:18:45 certification confirming satisfactory assessment in accordance with the cwct standard for curtin walling and then it says the cwct standard provides detailed guidance on performance and testing
02:18:57 guidance on performance and testing and you go on to tell us at the top of the following page that although this phrase this clause uses the phrase curtain walling systems
02:19:07 systems in the context it's used you would understand this to apply to cladding as well is that correct yes now we just wanted to take you to somewhere in that labc
02:19:19 somewhere in that labc warranty technical manual where a similar statement is in fact made about cladding if we could turn to that labc document that's labc
02:19:31 to that labc document that's labc 307892
02:19:33 307892 at page 197
02:19:44 so this is slightly further on we can see this is it's chapter seven and we can see at the top this is from the labc warranty technical manual and on the right hand side there's a
02:19:57 and on the right hand side there's a section headed 7.7.5 rain screen cladding systems do you have that yes
02:20:04 and um there's some text there and if we turn over to page 198 still in the same section
02:20:13 it says right in the top left-hand corner rain screen systems should have third-party certification confirming satisfactory assessment and comply with the requirements
02:20:24 comply with the requirements of the cwct standard for systemized building envelopes the collation of individual testing of components does not provide an overall performance of the rain screen or backing wall do you see that there yes
02:20:36 backing wall do you see that there yes so can we agree that even if the curtain walling section of the labc warranty technical manual did not apply to the cladding or rain screen cladding this section incorporates the same requirement
02:20:49 incorporates the same requirement uh including to comply with the cwct standard for systemized building envelopes yes yeah and also to have third party certification yes yes
02:21:05 now just stepping back and thinking about
02:21:08 about industry guidance documents and standards more generally would you agree that guidance documents and indeed more formal standards can quickly go out
02:21:20 more formal standards can quickly go out of date
02:21:20 of date once they are published yes do you consider that the reasonably competent cladding contractor has an obligation to interrogate and question guidance and
02:21:38 standards
02:21:42 i i think it would depend on how on the date
02:21:46 date um if you were looking at if you if you were in
02:21:49 were in 2013 for example you were looking at a standard date of 2020 2010 you wouldn't have any particular reason to question it if you were looking at one dated 1980
02:22:02 if you were looking at one dated 1980 you'd be foolish not to question it
02:22:06 do you consider that the reasonably competent cladding contractor ought to be able to identify where it was clear that particular guidance had become out of date compared with other industry guidance
02:22:19 guidance sorry i missed the first part of your question yeah do you consider that the reasonably competent cladding contractor ought to be able to identify where it was clear that particular guidance had become out of date
02:22:30 guidance had become out of date compared with other industry guidance
02:22:43 it's it's it's it's tricky to answer that yeah i do understand that it's a very hypothetical question yes it isn't a problem but it's a matter of judgment yes and as time passes i think in the light of what you
02:22:54 passes i think in the light of what you said earlier as time passes it will become more apparent that an old standard needs to be questioned yes at what point you could say everyone should have questioned it
02:23:05 should have questioned it is probably debatable isn't it yes and it depends on the particular technical issue involved i would say
02:23:13 like most things it depends on context i can't
02:23:16 can't make a general answer to the question no i understand yeah i'm going to move on um i want to ask you some questions now about the industry's knowledge of the fire performance of particular products and
02:23:28 performance of particular products and of
02:23:29 of fires more generally involving cladding if we can go to paragraph page 34 of your report first and look at paragraph 8.2.1
02:23:42 and look at paragraph 8.2.1 this is under the section state of knowledge of the cladding industry you've set out there um helpfully for us um a table of three different types of insulation
02:23:54 of three different types of insulation board extruded polystyrene xps poly isocyanuric pir foam in the phenolic foam and below that at 8.2.2 you say this you
02:24:05 and below that at 8.2.2 you say this you say
02:24:06 say all of these products are combustible to a lesser to a greater or lesser degree well fire specialists would probably have been able to rank these in terms of fire propagation and
02:24:17 these in terms of fire propagation and smoke generation in my experience the reasonably competent cladding contractor would have known that they were combustible but would not have been able to rank
02:24:27 to rank their combustibility so that's what you tell us there
02:24:32 so just to be clear when you talk about fire specialists being able to rank the products do you mean that they would be able to examine the test data and classifications for each product and determine an order
02:24:45 for each product and determine an order say of combustibility or an order of smoke production yes yeah
02:24:53 and you've told us very clearly there that the reasonably competent cladding contractor would have known that these insulation products were combustible but would not have been able to rank them would it follow from that that the
02:25:05 would it follow from that that the reasonably competent cladding contractor should have understood that the use of such
02:25:09 such combustible materials on a building over 18 meters in height entailed a fire risk yes
02:25:19 now in terms of the knowledge within the industry of of cladding fires if we could turn to page 35 of your report
02:25:29 here you've set out very helpfully again a
02:25:32 a table of what you describe in paragraph 9.1 as a number of important fires involving external fire spread and you've given us
02:25:43 external fire spread and you've given us the date the location and notes about what was known about those fires and that table goes from page 35 over if we just have a look onto page
02:25:54 over if we just have a look onto page 36.
02:25:56 36. so it takes us right up through to june 2016.
02:26:02 and going back to page 35 the first fire in which you specifically refer to acm is the the
02:26:13 is the the the china fire from february 2011. it's four lines up yeah at the ranks in complex and you the details you've given under the notes column it says acm panels involved and both extruded
02:26:26 acm panels involved and both extruded and expanded polystyrene insulation now would it be fair to say therefore that prior to 2012
02:26:37 therefore that prior to 2012 the fire risks posed by acm panels were not well known within the industry yes and particularly this
02:26:48 yes and particularly this this fire in china would not have been publicized particularly i think when they became these problems became known was once the fires started happening in the middle east
02:26:59 the middle east yes which as you said is about 2012. yes so we can see immediately below that april 2012 the al taya tower in shraddha in the uae fire started
02:27:11 in shraddha in the uae fire started eighth floor of 40 stories acm panels and then we've got the rue france fire the murmotz tower may 2012. fire broke out second story 18 stories one diet acm cladding
02:27:23 one diet acm cladding so that's i think what you're saying is is that's really at the time when this was becoming much more well known is that correct yes and if we look at paragraph 9.2 of your report on page 36
02:27:39 you say there i have listed the above but i would not expect all practitioners in the cladding industry to have been aware of all of these at the time
02:27:51 aware of all of these at the time nevertheless the ones that would in my opinion have been more widely known were the fires in the united arab emirates
02:27:58 emirates particularly in dubai in 2012 to 2016 because they were well covered in the news media and technical press at the time
02:28:07 time and then you go on to tell us at 9.3 for example the uae fires were well covered by the local and international online media they were also reported online on
02:28:18 they were also reported online on bbc.com and on itv.com and within the technical online feed such as the architectsjournal.combuilding.com and constructionweek.com although i
02:28:29 and constructionweek.com although i cannot provide specific contemporaneous evidence it is my it is in my opinion highly likely that news of these fires would also have been covered by the relevant broadcast tv
02:28:40 relevant broadcast tv news programs and in the print editions of the above magazines finally i would expect local agents dealing with importation of cladding and insulation materials to the uae to have been aware of these
02:28:51 to the uae to have been aware of these fires from their local media and to have informed their relevant suppliers accordingly now just going back to 9.2 and where you tell us that you would have
02:29:04 where you tell us that you would have expected the reasonably competent clouding contractor to have been aware of
02:29:07 of some of the fires in this table um is it only the uae fires that you would have expected them to be aware of or would you expected them to be aware of at least some of the others
02:29:19 be aware of at least some of the others as well
02:29:23 as well i would have expected them to have been aware of the uae fires they might have been aware of some of the others but i wouldn't have expected that
02:29:31 that yeah now it's been suggested to the inquiry that cladding assemblies in the uae may have been different to the type of cladding assemblies typically used in the uk
02:29:44 typically used in the uk is that something that you're aware of or you can help us with you're saying some of the other evidence or something so no this is actually a suggestion it's been suggested in some questions for you
02:29:56 been suggested in some questions for you that for example in the uae typically cladding assemblies did not have insulation and those that did had a thin layer of glass wool or stone wool
02:30:07 wool can you help us with that um no i i can't i'm afraid no i'm fair enough but that's that's uh i'm slightly surprised at that because
02:30:18 i'm slightly surprised at that because although
02:30:21 although obviously it's a different climate
02:30:25 climate um the insulation requirements are still there because you're trying to keep the cool of the building in yes yes um you know is it because
02:30:36 yes yes um you know is it because they're
02:30:36 they're heavily air-conditioned um but i'm not sure what the point being made is about the fact that the cladding construction is different why i think someone's suggesting that maybe
02:30:47 i think someone's suggesting that maybe because the cloud in construction was different that perhaps people wouldn't have been paying as much attention in the uk to those fires well i i
02:30:58 you haven't asked the question but if you're asking why do i think people weren't paying enough attention uh can i
02:31:06 uh can i i'm coming to that and oh okay because i i i've got a view on that but yeah but i but i don't think
02:31:13 think the difference of construction was the issue
02:31:16 issue right yes just sticking with this for a moment it's also been suggested that none of those uae fires involve cladding systems which attempted to compartmentalize the system the cladding
02:31:27 compartmentalize the system the cladding system for example through the use of cavity barriers again can you help us whether that's i don't know i don't know
02:31:40 um and does it remain your evidence as stated at paragraph 9.4 on page 37 if we can just look at 9.4
02:31:54 you say the uae fires were reported at the time as being specifically exacerbated by the acm cladding one relevant article among many is in the building magazine those involved in the cladding industry
02:32:05 those involved in the cladding industry would or at least should have been aware of the dangers inherent in using this type of cladding on tall buildings
02:32:12 buildings yes so does it remain your evidence notwithstanding whether there were any differences in the detail of those cladding systems that the reasonably competent clouding contractor ought to have been aware of
02:32:23 contractor ought to have been aware of the fire dangers inherit inherent in using acm cladding yes
02:32:31 would those dangers have included the knowledge that metal cladding has a propensity to melt and deform thereby exposing the core of any composite panel
02:32:45 i would say probably but i i wouldn't be able to say categorically
02:32:52 and would an awareness of the dangers have included the knowledge that cavity barriers might well be futile because the cladding panel can defect deflect and deform and warp
02:33:03 deflect and deform and warp under heating meaning there'd be nothing for the cavity barrier to abut against do you consider that that would have been
02:33:11 have been understood
02:33:14 no i'm not sure where that's coming from because because um i mean there are things called intumescent cavity barriers which expand when they're heated
02:33:25 when they're heated um so they wouldn't necessarily have the effect that you're describing
02:33:37 yes i think it's being suggested that even with intumescent cavity barriers that it would be known that they may well be futile because even with an intumescent strip the cladding panel can still deflect and
02:33:49 cladding panel can still deflect and deform and warp allowing the flame to bypass the barrier yes after a certain time yes because you know the cavity barrier is only typically designed for 30
02:34:00 is only typically designed for 30 minutes
02:34:02 minutes operation so after that time there would be
02:34:06 be distortion yes what about before that time what about in that 30 minutes would there have been an appreciation that with
02:34:13 with acm cladding materials they may render cavity barriers ineffective even before that time
02:34:19 that time because they're not a solid surface and they move warp and deflect under heating
02:34:28 are you asking i'm sorry are you asking could that happen from a technical point no i'm asking whether you think that those dangers would have been understood at the time by cladding contractors
02:34:42 yes i i i think it's something that they would have thought about yeah but they wouldn't have thought necessarily that therefore we can't do this on that account alone
02:34:53 this on that account alone right i understand can i just show you one
02:34:57 one email at this point which is specific to the grenfell project if we can go to har 406585
02:35:19 so i want to focus on the top email so for context this is an email from daniel ankitil jones he was the design manager at harley facades it's dated
02:35:30 it's dated the 27th of march 2015 and this arose in the context of a discussion about the appropriate resistance for the cavity barriers in the facade at
02:35:41 cavity barriers in the facade at grenfell tower there was a debate going on as to what rating the cavity barriers needed to have
02:35:47 have whether 30 minutes or a greater fire resistance and
02:35:55 and we can see that um mr anchoral jones um gives a view about uh on this point about fire barriers and their rating and he just he says there
02:36:07 he just he says there just that it's ridiculous there's no point in fire stopping as we all know the acm will be gone rather quickly in a fire the whole point is to stop unseen fire
02:36:18 the whole point is to stop unseen fire spreading in the cavity and moving to other parts of the building and and then he goes on and we don't need to look at those parts so he's saying that that there's no
02:36:29 so he's saying that that there's no point in fire stopping as we all know the acm will be gone rather quickly in a fire
02:36:34 fire the whole point is to stop unseen fire spreading in the cavity and moving to other parts of the building now in his oral evidence when he was asked about this email mr anchor jones said that he was referring to the
02:36:45 jones said that he was referring to the fact that aluminium will melt quickly in a fire and that that's a fact
02:36:50 fact known throughout the industry that in a fire aluminium an aluminium facade will not last very long it will melt and fall off the building now would you agree with that that it
02:37:01 now would you agree with that that it was
02:37:02 was no well known in the industry that a fire in an aluminium facade will not sorry that the aluminium facade will not last very long it will melt and fall off the building if we're talking about an acm yes here
02:37:15 if we're talking about an acm yes here yes
02:37:16 yes yes i would say that was pretty well known yes
02:37:20 known yes and so those physical properties of aluminium would be well known throughout the cladding industry yes yes
02:37:29 yes yes do you consider just to be clear i'm not we're not talking here about a normal aluminium panel on its own we're talking about aluminium as part of a composite yes yeah
02:37:40 yeah do you consider that the reasonably competent
02:37:44 competent cladding contractor ought also to have known
02:37:48 known at this time that acm would be gone rather quickly in a fire because it contained a combustible pe core yes thank you now finally on the topic of
02:38:02 thank you now finally on the topic of the uae
02:38:03 the uae fires can i just show you another email this is at
02:38:12 cep3049719
02:38:18 we just blow it up a little bit more on the screen this is an email from deborah french
02:38:23 french of alcoa or better known as arconic to a number of individuals within cep who were the fabricator of the panels grenfell tower and the subject is bbc
02:38:35 grenfell tower and the subject is bbc report ref acm in the uae so this is consistent with you saying that the uae fires were well reported for example by
02:38:46 fires were well reported for example by the the bbc yes um and just reading her email she says hi as you may be aware there have been some reports via bbc concerning a fire on a building in uae regarding acm
02:38:58 regarding acm as a business we are aware of this report and our technical team are following the details but in the meantime i wanted to add some thoughts that may help if you get questions from your customers clients etc regarding supply of rayna bond in the uk
02:39:10 regarding supply of rayna bond in the uk as you know we supply both p e polyethylene and fr fire resisting core
02:39:16 core and can control and understand what core is being used in all projects due to the controlled supply route we have by only supplying rayna bond to a very small group of approved fabricators and working very closely with them on
02:39:28 and working very closely with them on all projects we are able to follow what type of project is being designed developed and then offer the right reynabond specification including the core
02:39:37 core at this stage we will continue to offer both pe and fr core and continue the close working relationship we have with our approved fabricators to make sure the right technical support
02:39:48 to make sure the right technical support raynabon specification and materials are being used and installed on rainerbond projects
02:39:53 projects and then many thanks for making me aware of the reports and for your continued support
02:39:58 support now um would it be fair to say that this email
02:40:03 email reflects what you have termed to be a growing awareness in the industry regarding the fire risks posed by acm cladding with a pe call yes and i think it also goes beyond
02:40:15 call yes and i think it also goes beyond that
02:40:15 that growing awareness it's it's a sort of it's written in as as as a response to a potential problem i i believe this manufacturer must have seen
02:40:27 manufacturer must have seen uh and trying to reassure their clients yes
02:40:30 yes yeah now this email was sent to a fabricator what would you have expected a fabricator to do upon receipt of information like this at
02:40:41 upon receipt of information like this at the time about the fire risks posed by acmpe it's a rather confusingly worded email i
02:40:52 it's a rather confusingly worded email i think
02:40:52 think but i think what what the fabricator would have got from it i think would be to
02:40:59 to so it's a question perhaps they should we be using a pe or an fr core perhaps knowing that those alternatives the fr alternative was available
02:41:10 alternative was available um i think they should have really someone should have said well perhaps an fr core would be more appropriate for our project would you have expected that sort of
02:41:21 would you have expected that sort of email to be sent to cladding contractors to whom acm pe was being supplied either currently or thereafter yes [Applause]
02:41:33 [Applause] if the reasonably competent cladding contractor had become aware of an email like this
02:41:39 like this would you have expected that to provoke any action within that cladding contractor if they were either currently using or proposing to use acmpe yes and what would you have expected
02:41:52 yes and what would you have expected them to have done i would i think they they should have they would have um gone back to the manufacturer or their supplier and and
02:42:04 manufacturer or their supplier and and and
02:42:04 and and and just examine the issues involved a little bit more and to say are you sure we're okay using this kind of pe system when when when an fr system might be
02:42:15 be a better bet yeah you tell us on this theme if we go to paragraph tomatoes 37 of your report paragraph 9.5
02:42:26 tomatoes 37 of your report paragraph 9.5 you say that as a general observation i would expect the manufacturers of relevant materials cladding and insulation to have been aware of these fires
02:42:34 fires and their implications to a greater degree than cladding contractors i would expect such manufacturers to draw to the attention of their customers the relevant risks yeah and just to be
02:42:47 the relevant risks yeah and just to be clear again do you draw any distinction there
02:42:50 there based on the fires that you've you've seen and what was in the technical press about what you would have expected of a cladding manufacturer as compared to an insulation manufacturer in terms of
02:43:02 insulation manufacturer in terms of what should have been done about a notice taken of these these fires well it's interesting i think both the insulation manufacturer and the
02:43:13 the insulation manufacturer and the cladding manufacturer should should have been aware because some of these fires were the result of insulation burning as some
02:43:23 some due to the cladding burning and some were the result of both yes but that said i think the perception in the industry that i recall at that time
02:43:32 time was that it was the cladding the acm cladding
02:43:35 cladding that was perceived to be the bigger problem
02:43:38 problem yes um and as as you say at paragraph 9.4 um you've said that the uae fires were
02:43:49 you've said that the uae fires were reported at the time as being specifically exacerbated by the acm cladding yes yes
02:43:57 and would you expect manufacturers um of of acm cladding to do anything further than simply draw their customers attention to the relevant
02:44:07 relevant risks would you have expected them to have gone any further than just drawing attention to the risks or to take more more serious steps
02:44:19 or to take more more serious steps i would expect them to
02:44:24 have um taken more serious steps and said look
02:44:28 said look we are we are concerned about the use of pe chord materials uh for tool buildings and we we would recommend
02:44:39 tool buildings and we we would recommend that you start using the fr chord materials for example yeah um but i'm again i i'm conscious of some of the evidence
02:44:49 evidence in the inquiry and and and uh that gives me a stronger benefit of hindsight if you like but at the time yes i i think it would
02:45:00 but at the time yes i i think it would be reasonable uh that that the manufacturers would have taken a more proactive approach to ensuring that their products were being used safely yes yes i understand
02:45:12 yes yes i understand to your knowledge did any authoritative body concerned with cladding or the construction industry for example the cwct
02:45:19 cwct the nhbc the bca publish any cautionary guidance or recommendations specifically following these fires
02:45:37 i think the the tgn note 18 coming from the bca looking at the date date of 2014
02:45:49 looking at the date date of 2014 and 2015 seem to correspond to the growing awareness due to these fires and it may be that that was one of the reasons why they felt that the whole question needed clarification
02:46:00 question needed clarification yes apart from the other questions we discussed earlier so that may have been related to it but i can't
02:46:07 i can't recall anything specific um following these fires yeah
02:46:15 so we're specifically addressing these fires and thinking what should we do about them about this problem i
02:46:21 problem i i yeah yeah and i think i think if i could give a view here i think one of the one of the problems was that
02:46:32 was that as far as i understand it there was not great loss of life in these fires um and they were serious fires very serious fires but there wasn't a great loss of life
02:46:44 there wasn't a great loss of life and perhaps therefore people didn't take them seriously enough it was a failure of
02:46:48 of imagination right yes yes my next question was do you consider that the lessons of these fires were properly learned by the uk construction and cladding
02:46:59 the uk construction and cladding industry before the grenfell tower fire no no and and the reason for that you think may emanate from the fact that there just
02:47:10 emanate from the fact that there just wasn't
02:47:10 wasn't a significant loss of life so it didn't jump to people's attention is that what you're saying that's exactly what i'm saying
02:47:17 saying yeah and and as i'm saying there's a bit of this attitude of well it hasn't happened so it can't happen yeah yes thank you
02:47:30 yeah yes thank you given that at the time of the grenfell tower fire there were a large number of other high-rise residential buildings
02:47:38 buildings across the uk that were clad in pe called acm do you think that tells us anything about whether the dangers associated with the use of such products were well understood
02:47:49 understood in the cladding industry
02:47:54 i don't think they were sufficiently well understood no
02:47:59 what comfort if any with the reasonably competent cladding contractor take from the fact that some of the products used on the grenfell tower facade have been in use for many years
02:48:18 i i i'm not sure what the the way you phrased that question um i'm not sure how to answer it yes i mean i guess what i was saying is if you try and put yourself in the
02:48:29 if you try and put yourself in the mindset of the reasonably competent cladding contractor let's take the acm pe in 2014 deciding whether to use it what comfort would you expect them to take
02:48:41 would you expect them to take from the fact that acmpe had been used for many years on similar buildings what weight would you give to that
02:48:53 i think i quite a lot of weight in the sense that the construction industry or some parts of the construction industry has a sort of um ra sometimes i think a
02:49:06 has a sort of um ra sometimes i think a rather head in the sand view which is that
02:49:09 that if if if it's been all right for 20 years it it'll be all right tomorrow you know and and as i said it's a failure of imagination sometimes yes so i think they probably did take
02:49:21 yes so i think they probably did take comfort from the fact that there hadn't been
02:49:24 been a major disaster so there there was a con sort of um complacency yes
02:49:30 yes but sitting here now do you consider it was reasonable for them to have taken that comfort at the time no
02:49:43 and what about um any comfort taken from the fact that products um let's take the acmpe had been used on on many buildings so not just for many years but
02:49:53 years but there were many other buildings with it on again
02:49:57 on again was that reasonable to take comfort from
02:50:06 that
02:50:10 no i don't think it was reasonable yeah on a similar theme what comfort would the reasonably competent cladding contractor take from the fact that the products were manufactured by well-known
02:50:21 products were manufactured by well-known and ostensibly reputable companies
02:50:27 well yes they would have taken comfort from that yeah and reasonably so in your
02:50:34 view
02:50:43 i i can't i find that hard to answer yes okay
02:50:47 okay in your view do these considerations in any way lessen the need for the reasonably competent cladding contractor to conduct rigorous and exhaustive compliance checks each time they use the products
02:51:01 checks each time they use the products is that what you would expect of the reasonably competent cloud and contractor
02:51:06 yes
02:51:10 now you've also helpfully referred us if we go to page 32 of your report at paragraph 7.6.21 to the fact that there was um the first
02:51:23 to the fact that there was um the first international seminar for facade for fire safety of facades held in paris in november 2013 you've got that right at the top there
02:51:34 at the top there referring to that seminar and and you say that this was significant at that this conference was held that year as it reflects a growing awareness of the fire safety
02:51:46 a growing awareness of the fire safety of facades at that time possibly as a result of the fires in france in 2010 and 2012 and the spate of fires in the uae in 2012.
02:51:56 in 2012. [Applause] um now given that harley's involvement in the grenfell tower refurbishment began in 2013 would it be fair to say that that occurred on the cusp of that
02:52:08 that that occurred on the cusp of that increase in awareness of the fire safety of facades within the industry
02:52:14 industry yes although i wouldn't have expected harley to be specifically aware of this seminar no i understand that
02:52:25 given your view that the level of technical expertise of uk-based cladding contractors might have been slightly less than that of their international counterparts would it be fair to say that the
02:52:37 would it be fair to say that the increase in the awareness of the fire safety of facades that you refer to was more widespread amongst top-tier international contractors than amongst uk-based contractors
02:52:49 than amongst uk-based contractors certainly in those early years 2012-2013 probably true yes right yes and does it follow that it might have
02:53:00 and does it follow that it might have taken a little bit longer for that awareness to have filtered down to the uk cladding contractors that you've referred to yes except i i i don't think they were
02:53:13 yes except i i i don't think they were unaware
02:53:13 unaware i i i'm not saying that the uk clouding industry was unaware i think they were they probably were aware of the issues yes thank you now you've referred to one
02:53:24 yes thank you now you've referred to one particular paper of relevance that appears to have been delivered um at this conference if we could go to page 32 of your report
02:53:35 32 of your report sorry we're on 32. 7.6.23 you say there one paper of particular relevance was fire hazards of exterior wall assemblies containing combustible components by white
02:53:46 white and i'm not going to pronounce all the other uh authors of that paper but white and others let's just turn to that paper it's at ima
02:53:57 ima 50930
02:54:00 50930 now this is just to be clear this is the final version of the paper from june 2014 whereas the conference was in november 13 and it's clear that uh there was a
02:54:13 and it's clear that uh there was a presentation by these authors with this title at that conference i think what we can't be 100 clear about is whether the this entire paper was presented then or
02:54:24 this entire paper was presented then or whether this is the final version um but if we just look um at page three of this paper we can see
02:54:32 see that it was drawing attention uh in the last few lines of the of the forward in that first paragraph if we look at the last four lines it states cl there there have been a
02:54:43 it states cl there there have been a number of documented fire incidents involving combustible exterior walls but a better understanding was needed of the specific scenarios leading to these incidents to inform current test methods
02:54:55 incidents to inform current test methods and potential mitigating strategies and what this paper does is it examines those documented fire incidents and what what was aware what they were aware of
02:55:06 what was aware what they were aware of from those and then goes on and does an analysis of current test methods in the latter part of the paper yes
02:55:13 paper yes um and it if we go within this paper to where we've got this spate of recent fires in the uae uh and look at page 46.
02:55:27 here we can see we've got reference to the
02:55:31 the al taya tower in shraja 2012 and we can see reading two lines down in the text the exterior of the building was clad with
02:55:42 exterior of the building was clad with metal composite panels consisting of aluminium
02:55:45 aluminium with a polyethylene core yes yes so we can see it's it's not just you don't just learn that it's acn but also it's acmpe yeah and then the same is true if you go
02:55:56 yeah and then the same is true if you go over to page 47
02:56:00 this is dealing with a different fire in dubai in 2012 and again if you look second line down the building was clad with metal composite panels consisting of aluminium
02:56:11 composite panels consisting of aluminium with a polyethylene core and then the same at 48 page 48 again looking at this same spate of fires you can see the tan wheel tower
02:56:24 fires you can see the tan wheel tower dubai 2012. and it says picking it up at the end of the first line the building was cleared with metal composite piles consisting of aluminium with a polyethylene core so this paper in in late 2013
02:56:38 this paper in in late 2013 2014 was clearly drawing attention to the use of acm with polyethylene cores that's right isn't it absolutely yeah and in terms of who attended this
02:56:49 attended this november 2013 paris conference at which this paper was presented if we go back to your report you tell us at page 33 paragraph 7.6.2.8
02:57:03 paragraph 7.6.2.8 you say there that you've not been able to obtain the specific attendance list for these seminars but the research institute of sweden has provided a contact list in connection with these seminars
02:57:17 in connection with these seminars and the attendees were apparently drawn from this list and it says the list contains a wide range of international organizations including quasi-government bodies universities and test houses manufacturers and
02:57:28 test houses manufacturers and consultants there do not appear to be any main contractors or cladding contractors on the contact list which indicates to me that contractors generally would have relied on manufacturers
02:57:39 manufacturers to be involved in such seminars and to have fed back information as necessary so you've told us that about the attendance at these
02:57:51 about the attendance at these um this cladding conference and i think we do see individuals from kingspan do we not on that attendance list i i yes if you say so yeah you can take it from me that
02:58:02 yeah you can take it from me that there's individuals from kingspan who attended
02:58:05 attended um it's consistent with what you've said there about it comprising of mainly or people including manufacturers and consultants um and then you tell us if we go to page
02:58:16 um and then you tell us if we go to page 34 the next page at 8.1.1 you say the combustibility of these panels was in my opinion well known in the industry particularly since the uae fires in 2012 to 2016.
02:58:30 since the uae fires in 2012 to 2016. yeah so just to be clear is it your evidence that regardless of the fact that main contractors and cladding contractors did not attend this particular conference the information disseminated
02:58:41 conference the information disseminated at this conference and similar industry events
02:58:44 events would have meant that there was a filtering down in the industry of an awareness of these risks from using acm cladding absolutely yes and i think the important
02:58:55 absolutely yes and i think the important point is is that these conferences took place at all i mean these are not just fire conferences or for cladding conferences these are specific conferences about fire risk and cladding yes but
02:59:06 about fire risk and cladding yes but what did it say whether or not people attended the fact that people thought it was a big enough problem to have a major international conference in 2013 and again in 2016.
02:59:18 in 2013 and again in 2016. yes yes thank you now take into account your evidence that the combustibility of acm panels was well known in the industry do you agree that the reasonably
02:59:29 do you agree that the reasonably competent cladding contractor would have been aware not only of the occurrence of the uae cladding fires in 2012 2013 but also the causes of those fires
02:59:41 yes yes so including the fact that they involved acm to be clear cause uh the the acm panel didn't cause the fire
02:59:52 the the acm panel didn't cause the fire it propagated it i see if that makes sense yeah would they have been aware that the acmpe propagated the file yes yes
03:00:05 would the reason yes and so just to be clear the reasonably competent cladding contractor would have been aware that acm
03:00:11 acm panels with a polyethylene as opposed to an
03:00:14 an fr core had been involved in a number of these fire incidents on high-rise buildings yes yeah
03:00:29 yes thank you mr chairman that's a good moment and it's the lunch break at any event i think we had a break then yes i'm going to move to a different topic now all right well mr secular it's time we all had a break for
03:00:40 secular it's time we all had a break for some lunch and we'll do that now we'll come back at two o'clock please and again please don't discuss your evidence with anyone outside the room okay thank you very much
03:01:01 all right two o'clock then please
03:01:19 you