Diane Marshall (NHBC) concludes her evidence on the 2016 guidance note, followed by Catherine Turner (UKAS) on accreditation processes, quality control, and handling of non-conforming work by testing bodies.
00:00:25 would you ask us marshall to come back in please
00:00:36 [Music] let's see if there's any more questions for you yes yes mr chairman ms marshall welcome back there are one or two questions uh that arise out of your evidence that i want to pursue a little
00:00:47 evidence that i want to pursue a little bit further um first this morning you told us about deemed to satisfy or akin to deemed to satisfy and you related that to regulation seven can i show you what you
00:00:58 regulation seven can i show you what you said in the transcript so that we can work from that uh today's transcript please day two two six page eighty line seven
00:01:07 uh and uh i was asking you about
00:01:12 about the
00:01:13 the 2016 guidance and
00:01:16 and i asked you at line seven how what the approach in that guidance was consistent with the provisions of approved document b and you said as i've mentioned it's akin to a deemed to
00:01:28 mentioned it's akin to a deemed to satisfy root that exists under regulation seven you remember that evidence yes yes uh
00:01:35 uh let's look at regulation seven if we can um can we please have up inq three zeros one four nine three zero
00:01:48 now this is the approved document relating to regulation seven isn't it yes uh when you refer to regulation were you seven were you referring to this document yes right um can we therefore
00:02:01 document yes right um can we therefore go in it please to uh page 14 and i should just to remind you explain
00:02:11 explain and you probably know more about this than me that part one of this document deals uh with materials and part two deals with workmanship yes yes yeah in order to deal with the two basic topics covered by the regulation itself now
00:02:23 covered by the regulation itself now here on page 14 at the top of the page you can see something with the title past experience paragraph 1.18 past experience such as
00:02:34 paragraph 1.18 past experience such as use in an existing building may show that the material can perform the function for which it is intended
00:02:42 intended first was that the provision in regulation seven to which you were intending to refer this morning yes it was right um
00:02:51 um in in the context of the publication of of the 2016 guidance
00:02:58 guidance could you just tell us what was the experience which showed that acm class b when used with k15 or rs 5000 in a
00:03:10 when used with k15 or rs 5000 in a building above 18 meters can meet the functional requirement b for part one it was based on the number of option three assessments that
00:03:23 number of option three assessments that had been presented to us so past experience of desktop assessments yes not past exist experience of
00:03:34 not past exist experience of actual buildings in real life
00:03:37 well they would have been constructed at some point yes well sorry desktop assessments i thought were based on data from 8414 tests well they weren't they not based on a survey of existing buildings no sorry i meant
00:03:50 existing buildings no sorry i meant those assessments would have been used to construct buildings uh
00:03:56 uh right
00:03:57 right the desktop assessments you mean yes right
00:04:00 right so
00:04:02 so just though i'm absolutely clear your
00:04:06 your regulatory justification if i can use that expression [Music]
00:04:12 [Music] was
00:04:13 was past experience of desktops under option three
00:04:18 three not
00:04:19 not past experience of buildings in the built environment yes
00:04:25 yes and not past experience of of the test data itself in other words not the experience of the tests but the interpolation of the tests yes yes i see thank you
00:04:38 thank you next question
00:04:42 uh is as follows you i think accept uh that
00:04:49 uh that there was a lack of clarity in general about the meaning and purpose of 12.7 by 2016 yes
00:05:02 by 2016 yes which aspect of 12.7 um let me put it slightly differently by 2016 were you aware that there was a controversy a degree of divergence of
00:05:13 controversy a degree of divergence of understanding in the industry about whether 12.7
00:05:18 meant that all elements of the external wall including external facings had to be of material of limited combustibility there were some people who thought it showed in there like you and there are
00:05:29 showed in there like you and there are some people who thought that it shouldn't yes yes
00:05:33 and were you aware also that there were concerns by that time among others expressed by people like nick jenkins at booth murray about the number of buildings in the
00:05:45 about the number of buildings in the built environment which had been built using pe cord acm panels yes i'm aware of that yes yes do you know whether the nhbc board uh
00:05:56 do you know whether the nhbc board uh and indeed nhbc's underwriting department was willing to continue to accept the risks presented by those materials
00:06:09 the risks presented by those materials given the controversies and concerns that surrounded them the
00:06:14 the underwriting and the board were accepting of following the options within the approved document through options one to
00:06:25 approved document through options one to four
00:06:26 four they weren't and
00:06:28 and the discussion we had yesterday around filler etc that was clear within nhbc and it was one of the reasons that when we did the 2015 review
00:06:39 we did the 2015 review we instigated the same criteria on warranty only schemes so that we could be satisfied that that criteria was being applied consistently
00:06:51 was being applied consistently do you accept that the risk
00:06:54 risk presented by using k15 and acm chord pe chord panels whether together or separately increased
00:07:05 increased as a result of the introduction of your 2016 guidance no you don't no because the the guidance the restrictions on news made it clear to your knowledge was the board ever
00:07:17 to your knowledge was the board ever asked to undertake its own separate
00:07:21 separate risk assessment or analysis or was the underwriting department ever invited to do so
00:07:26 do so so that they could work out for themselves whether that document did or as you say didn't increase the risk
00:07:35 the risk either of a claim more of a a wrong
00:07:40 certification the board were regularly updated on the activities of the business and i don't know the content of those updates they would have been recorded in board minutes
00:07:53 can we then turn to the
00:07:56 the speech you gave to the tall building seminar itself on the 7th of july 2016. we'll find that at inq 3014812 please
00:08:12 and this is the transcript of that which we have um created by epic
00:08:23 if you um go down please in it
00:08:28 to page four
00:08:31 in the middle of your speech
00:08:36 you say uh in the middle of the screen it has created
00:08:42 created it has created a little bit of confusion in the industry that why does nhbc get involved in building control matters when they're only providing warranty and hbcr the warranty body who takes
00:08:54 and hbcr the warranty body who takes responsibility for you to comply with standards and regulations so the two sit very much hand in hand why is it important
00:09:01 important you say well this image is the first of several that you'll see this afternoon on buildings that have had fires and they do cause headlines because they're quite spectacular what we want to do is obviously avoid
00:09:12 what we want to do is obviously avoid that situation ultimately if things do go wrong then it's the threat of prosecution as a building controlled body we can lose our licence we can be prosecuted for corporate manslaughter
00:09:25 prosecuted for corporate manslaughter fines and imprisonment can follow not a position we want to be in obviously
00:09:32 obviously from a claims perspective under our warranty if we turn the page
00:09:39 if there are deaths and injuries and any damage
00:09:42 damage we don't want to be dealing with those sorts of claims
00:09:49 can you explain why the safety of residents living in buildings which were potentially unsafe
00:09:59 unsafe found no mention in your speech only the impact to nhbc in terms of criminal and civil liability
00:10:11 in terms of criminal and civil liability can you explain that so could you scroll back up please yes page four
00:10:28 i think i haven't obviously seen this previously other than delivering it on the day in 2016.
00:10:35 2016. the the context was around compliance and achieving standards and
00:10:43 and the whole point that was being made here was we were regularly challenged as nhbc on why we were asking regulatory questions on warranty only schemes
00:10:56 questions on warranty only schemes because we weren't the building control body and we had that challenge not only from other building control bodies but from customers submitting information
00:11:07 customers submitting information and this point is to make it clear that
00:11:11 that where we have the responsibility for warranty we were seeing inconsistencies on the application and interpretation of approved document b and we wanted to
00:11:22 approved document b and we wanted to address that so the the background was driving compliance and improving standards
00:11:33 you see the reason i asked the question is that there's a list of consequences that you're seeking to avoid
00:11:41 avoid and i've read them to you but it it one can see that it doesn't include the consequences for individuals actually living in these buildings and i just wanted to know why that was
00:11:52 i think that was that was taken as a as a given we were looking at compliance and that's stated further up compliance with standards and compliance with regulations that ensure buildings are
00:12:03 regulations that ensure buildings are safe
00:12:05 now we've covered a huge amount of evidence over the last day and a half um and i just have a final question for you and that is looking back on the material we've covered and looking back on
00:12:16 we've covered and looking back on your experience in dealing with these materials in the high-rise context from 2013 is there anything you would like now to have done differently i think we recognize that the issues
00:12:29 i think we recognize that the issues with kingspan could have been drawn to a conclusion for swifter the
00:12:36 the approach that we took in relation to the acceptability guide was done at the time with the industry knowledge and obviously in light of
00:12:49 knowledge and obviously in light of significant testing there are questions over some of the the content
00:12:56 content i think
00:12:57 i think what we are looking to do is
00:13:00 is obviously cooperate as necessary with the inquiry and we stand ready to implement any recommendations that come out of the inquiry that has an impact on our operations
00:13:13 well thank you very much uh ms marshall it remains for me to thank you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations that's the end of my questions and i'm extremely grateful to you so
00:13:24 and i'm extremely grateful to you so thank you very much thank you and i should thank you as well ms marshall for coming to give evidence um we've learned a lot from hearing your testimony and it'll be very helpful to us when we come
00:13:35 it'll be very helpful to us when we come to consider our decisions in due course so thank you very much and you're now free to go thank you very much
00:13:52 thank you mr miller now um we do have another witness do we not we do we have the next witness for ucas lined up uh to come to give evidence and as soon as we've done the the necessary changeover
00:14:04 we've done the the necessary changeover process um she will be taken by ms emma hines of council thank you very much well um in the usual way we'll have to have a short break now so that we can do the usual as keeping
00:14:16 the usual as keeping a process and maybe you could ask the usher to come and find us as soon as that's ready very well thank you thank you very much
00:20:53 yes with science now you have a witness for us good afternoon sir and good afternoon to members of the panel may i please call mrs lorraine turner of the united kingdom accreditation service thank you very much
00:21:11 good afternoon mr turner i gather your game to affirm thank you would you uh read the words on the screen in front of you then please i do solemnly sincerely and truly
00:21:22 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now please sit down make yourself comfortable
00:21:37 all right very good yes thank you sir mrs turner thank you very much for coming to the inquiry if you've any difficulty in understanding any of my questions please just say and i'll
00:21:49 my questions please just say and i'll either repeat the question to the question or i'll put it in a different way we're going to take a scheduled break this afternoon but if you need a break at any other time please just let me know
00:22:00 know and would you please try and keep your voice up so the transcriber can hear you and take down your evidence it also helps not to nod or shake your head but to actually say yes or no so it
00:22:11 head but to actually say yes or no so it goes down on the transcript mr turner today you might be tempted to use a lot of acronyms and i might be tempted to follow you in using those acronyms can i ask you to try and say those terms in full unless they're
00:22:23 those terms in full unless they're extremely well known terms you've made two witness statements for the inquiry can we please go to ucas2011242
00:22:37 this is your statement dated the 10th of september 2021 and i'll call this your first statement can we go please to page 21.
00:22:49 can we go please to page 21. the signature there is that your signature yes it is can we now go to ucas2011422
00:22:59 this is your statement dated the 22nd of december 2021 and i'll call this your second statement can we please go to page 14
00:23:10 can we please go to page 14 and is that your signature you see there yes it is
00:23:14 yes it is have you read each of these statements recently yes i have now with regard to your first statement at page five paragraph 7c you said that
00:23:25 you said that 2650 bodies were accredited by ucas what's that figure now um it's i think over 3100
00:23:36 um it's i think over 3100 organizations and at page seven paragraph seven f you gave a list of board members has that list changed yes it has um
00:23:47 yes it has um paul greenwood our operations director was appointed to the board in october 2021 and there was no one removed from the board it's just in addition now subject to those two clarifications
00:23:59 now subject to those two clarifications can you confirm that the contents of your statements are true yes i can have you discuss the evidence you're going to give today with anyone before coming here um just my legal team and um colleagues
00:24:13 um just my legal team and um colleagues consulted colleagues on points and facts to get information from our records very well
00:24:19 well now i understand that you have a bachelor's degree in chemistry and a master's degree in analytical chemistry is that right that's correct do you also hold an institute of director's
00:24:30 hold an institute of director's certificate in company direction i do and you tell us in your first statement that from 1991 you managed the scientific services laboratory at the
00:24:41 scientific services laboratory at the london borough of islington is that correct i was yes a senior analyst at the uh london borough visiting islington and in july 1995 did you join the national measurement
00:24:53 did you join the national measurement accreditation service or otherwise known as namas yes i did and was that in the chemical biological health and hygiene section yes it was was that an accreditation role
00:25:05 was that an accreditation role yes it was um at the time it was called a technical officer role um it's now that that same role is now called an assessment manager and in august 1995 so
00:25:19 and in august 1995 so a few months or even weeks into that employment did nemas become part of the united kingdom accreditation service or ucas yes ucas was formed on the 1st of august
00:25:32 yes ucas was formed on the 1st of august from namas and another organization was that nat class no it was the naccb which was the accreditation body for certification bodies
00:25:44 certification bodies right
00:25:45 right and i understand that you've had a number of roles at ucas since then in 1999 you were appointed to the role of accreditation manager of the
00:25:57 of accreditation manager of the chemistry section is that right yes and in 2005 you're appointed to a new role technical manager for ucas is that right yes
00:26:07 yes was that
00:26:08 was that for accreditation related just to chemistry or was your remit broader it was a broader remit it was a cross-company role it was a new role that was created
00:26:19 that was created to start to coordinate our technical policy functions at the time because the the organization had grown
00:26:29 had grown and so we decided to centralize some functions i see in 2009 were you appointed to the role of divisional director technical yes i was and was that in the executive team
00:26:42 was and was that in the executive team yes
00:26:43 yes and as to rich divisional director was your focus on chemistry related accreditation or was it broader no again it was broader so now the technical team
00:26:54 it was broader so now the technical team moved from just being one person to we we started to increase the team and i also took on the responsibility for the quality management system ucas's own quality management system i see
00:27:06 own quality management system i see and in may 2012 i understand there was another reorganization of ucas is that right yes that's correct and were you appointed at that time to the role of technical and business development
00:27:17 technical and business development director yes i was and in your first statement you say that this role um your responsibilities included executive responsibility for the technical and
00:27:28 responsibility for the technical and quality function external affairs marketing and communications and new service development was this a role that looked across all areas of ucas or did you return to a
00:27:41 areas of ucas or did you return to a more of a focus on chemical or environmental services no it was a it's a cross cross organisation role very well
00:27:49 very well and when you say you have executive responsibility for the technical and quality function can we take it from that that from 2012
00:28:00 can we take it from that that from 2012 you are ultimately responsible for the performance of accreditation services um
00:28:06 um i was responsible for the um the sort of technical management technical policy side uh the delivery of assessment and accreditation activities
00:28:18 assessment and accreditation activities uh falls under the operations director um but we worked and continued to work very closely together in terms of delivery of assessments were and ensuring our technical integrity
00:28:32 and ensuring our technical integrity thank you
00:28:33 thank you in january 2021 were you appointed as the accreditation director yes i was now you tell us in your first statement that in that role you had a responsibility
00:28:44 in that role you had a responsibility for and i'm quoting setting driving and maintaining technical policy customer service standards and management of business risks are you now the most senior person at
00:28:57 are you now the most senior person at ucas responsible for accreditation um i i would i would say that the most senior person at ucas responsible for accreditation would be our chief
00:29:08 accreditation would be our chief executive but responsibilities are delegated um
00:29:13 um at the executive level across the executive team um and uh i've i've provided i think in my witness statement the structure of that team we will come to the structure
00:29:25 that team we will come to the structure of that team in a moment can we say though for now that looking at all of this together you've had a long history at ucas is it fair to say that however you don't
00:29:37 is it fair to say that however you don't have a great deal of personal knowledge of the accreditation of fire testing of certification or construction products
00:29:48 certification or construction products that's correct i'm not an expert in in fire testing or certification of construction products my expertise i would say now is more general
00:29:58 general accreditation across the the different areas of accreditation can i put it this way that you don't have detailed knowledge of
00:30:09 of or personal involvement in some of the events that this inquiry has been looking at but you do have detailed knowledge of accreditation policy and procedure at
00:30:22 accreditation policy and procedure at ucas that's correct and you've had that knowledge since ucas was formed in fact yes and it's on that basis that you're giving evidence today is that correct
00:30:33 giving evidence today is that correct that's correct i want to turn now to ask you some questions about ucas as an organization ucas is the national accreditation body
00:30:44 ucas is the national accreditation body or nab isn't it yes it is and we've noticed or we've noticed that ucas was formed in 1995 was ucas recognized at that time as the
00:30:57 was ucas recognized at that time as the sole national body for accreditation yes it was um but in a in a slightly different way to to the current position well in fact turning to the events of
00:31:09 well in fact turning to the events of 2008 2009 i understand that the european union introduced a new regulation called the regulation on accreditation and market surveillance and that introduced a requirement that
00:31:21 and that introduced a requirement that eu member states appointed a single national accreditation body is that your understanding it is and ucas was the organization that became appointed under that eu regulation is
00:31:33 appointed under that eu regulation is that right that's correct now when the uk withdrew from the european union in 2020
00:31:39 2020 to put it in simple terms we retained the law
00:31:42 the law that required there'd be a national accreditation body is that right yes that's correct um does it follow that there's currently a requirement for there to be a national accreditation
00:31:53 there to be a national accreditation body a legal requirement in the accreditation regulations yes and the the amended regulations post the exiting of eu yes and that body is and and was ucas yes
00:32:07 is accreditation by ucas voluntary by which i mean is it it isn't mandatory for a facility to have ucas accreditation to operate
00:32:18 accreditation to operate uh that depends um in some areas it is mandatory um there may be legislation that requires organizations to hold accreditation in other
00:32:29 accreditation in other areas it may be a voluntary decision for a business to choose that they want to have a third-party attestation of of their competence
00:32:40 of their competence and
00:32:41 and there are some scenarios where there might be uh policy um recommendations to to use accredited organizations and that so that so the motivations the drivers for organizations to become accredited may
00:32:54 organizations to become accredited may vary
00:32:55 vary in the different sectors is it mandatory for a laboratory conducting fire testing on construction products to have ucas accreditation to operate
00:33:06 operate um
00:33:08 um i'm not uh i'm not entirely sure um whether that's actually written into the legislation i am aware that the the the reference to the use of
00:33:19 the the reference to the use of accredited laboratories for fire testing so
00:33:24 so that's not i'm not certain are you referring to for example statutory guidance that says accredited laboratories but there could be a laboratory conducting certain tests
00:33:37 be a laboratory conducting certain tests but would not necessarily require ucas accreditation in order to legally be conducting those tests yes i understand that to be the case but i'm not 100 certain but that's that's
00:33:49 i'm not 100 certain but that's that's what i believe very well since ucas was formed in 1995 it's operated under a memorandum of understanding with government hasn't it
00:34:01 understanding with government hasn't it yes it has and was that initially with what was then called the department for trade and industry yes or the department of trading industry have clarification on that if i'm wrong um over time that relevant government
00:34:14 um over time that relevant government department has changed hasn't it yes uh which department does ucas deal with now
00:34:20 with now ucas uh sits under bays the department of business energy and industrial strategy but ucas itself is not a government department no no we're not would you say
00:34:32 department no no we're not would you say that ucas is independent of government yes we are would you say that ucas is sponsored by bayes
00:34:40 by bayes that is terminology we we use yes how do you describe the sponsorship um well we the the sponsorship is not a not a financial arrangement i think it's
00:34:52 a financial arrangement i think it's it's probably a casual term to reference the the relationship through the memorandum of understanding through the mou
00:35:00 mou um
00:35:01 um because and and now our appointment since 2008 2009 as the national accreditation body that's that's probably the more accurate way of of describing the relationship so you would
00:35:12 describing the relationship so you would say you were the appointed body yes smart and i'm not sure if you'd finished your question thank you i'm sorry yes thank you very much
00:35:21 much in fact let's go to one of the memorandum of understanding can we go to
00:35:29 one two ucas201126 zero please
00:35:35 this is the memorandum of understanding dated
00:35:38 dated december 2009 and we can see from the front that it's with the department then known as bis bis now there are several other memoranda
00:35:49 now there are several other memoranda but i'll refer to this one for the moment because it covers the period from 2009 to 2017. can we please turn to page four and at the top we see paragraph five
00:36:02 and at the top we see paragraph five and it's fees and charging and it says ucas may charge fees to cover costs and other expenditure and will ensure that its fee charging
00:36:13 and will ensure that its fee charging arrangements are fair and reasonable ucas will publish details of its fees and charges can we now go to page five and we see paragraph nine
00:36:25 paragraph nine paragraph nine is about support from government can we focus in on clause 9.3
00:36:35 and it says the activities of ucas will generally be self-financing from fees charged to customers
00:36:43 customers however the secretary of state will consider requests from ucas for financial assistance to assist the initial establishment of new services where these are required to support
00:36:54 where these are required to support government policy and activities aimed at raising the awareness of accreditation where it would be unreasonable for ucas to meet these costs from its own resources as well as requests from ucas for
00:37:06 as well as requests from ucas for financial assistance on a project specific basis in respect of ucas international activities so is the default position then
00:37:17 so is the default position then that
00:37:18 that ucas does not generally rely on government funding to perform routine accreditation services that's correct and in fact that's always been the case that ucas has never relied
00:37:30 been the case that ucas has never relied on government funding to perform routine accreditation that's correct does ucas finance its operations by charging fees for those services yes
00:37:41 yes and again it always has done so yes nonetheless i think it's your evidence that ucas is a not-for-profit organization is that right that's correct does that mean that ucas doesn't
00:37:52 correct does that mean that ucas doesn't distribute profit it does and ucas doesn't have shareholders it has members is that correct that's correct i'll come back to members in them in a moment i just want to stay with clause 9.3
00:38:04 just want to stay with clause 9.3 it says that ucas might get financial assistance from government three lines from the bottom sorry third line from the top to assist the initial establishment of new services
00:38:16 establishment of new services where these are required to support government policy what sort of government policies is the memorandum referring to here
00:38:27 is the memorandum referring to here if there are new regulations that
00:38:32 that call up the need to develop accreditation in in new areas it might be that we have a process for doing that and it might be that that we receive
00:38:43 and it might be that that we receive some funding from government to support the development activity so setting up the the criteria the the process that we will use finding the right expertise and
00:38:55 will use finding the right expertise and so on
00:38:56 so on i see
00:38:58 i see can we go down now to page 10 of the memorandum of understanding this is appendix 3 and it sets out the position
00:39:07 position on how the government department monitors ucas in the second paragraph we see a list of uh circular bullet points and this is a list of documents that at
00:39:20 and this is a list of documents that at that time ucas was required to send the to the department and at the third paragraph if we can scroll down to that we can see that the department will also
00:39:32 we can see that the department will also monitor ucas through regular meetings participation in ucas activities and independent reviews and you tell us in your second statement
00:39:44 and you tell us in your second statement that
00:39:45 that at the present moment ucas will be in contact with bays approximately weekly for ad hoc matters is that is that right uh yes i i would
00:39:57 is that is that right uh yes i i would say that is typically the case and what sort of matters would you be in would you cast be in contact with bayes about they they vary um if i just think of an
00:40:09 they they vary um if i just think of an example one of the the most recent um relates to some feedback that had come into the department about ucas activities overseas
00:40:20 about ucas activities overseas so they'll ask for some information to verify
00:40:24 verify um occasionally there may be inquiries and
00:40:28 and as you might imagine during the period leading up to exiting the eu and the amendment to the regulations and so on um that was a quite an intense time
00:40:39 time we're also ucas accreditation is used to as part of the process for recognizing approved bodies previously called notified bodies and
00:40:50 and bays as a government department is a competent authority so there are many different strands to the the relationship that we have with them can you just explain you've used
00:41:01 them can you just explain you've used the term notified bodies would you just explain what you mean by that notify body is a it's a it's a pre-brexit term for uh conformity assessment bodies so laboratories certification bodies uh
00:41:14 laboratories certification bodies uh that were recognized notified to the european commission as as being bodies that could carry out assessment activities of products in accordance with european legislation so
00:41:27 accordance with european legislation so related to product safety and post-brexit uh that we have a similar system that's continued but with uh those bodies are now called approved
00:41:38 uh those bodies are now called approved bodies would i be right to describe them as something like a mutual recognition uh
00:41:44 uh arrangement uh that there they were bodies so prior to exiting the eu they were bodies that could could do that assessment work and that work would be recognized through
00:41:55 that work would be recognized through throughout europe um
00:41:59 um as being equivalent right now that's the position now or in the last few years would you say that ucas has worked with its government department
00:42:11 its government department in that way throughout your time um
00:42:17 time um yes i think and i i have been involved with the relationship with uh baze and its predecessors since moving into the technical manager's role um and
00:42:29 um and yes i i i think so it of course it changes depending on the demand but it's it's a it's a good effective relationship i would would say
00:42:39 would say when i say a government department of course i mean bayes and any of its predecessors would you say that the government department has a great deal of oversight of ucas's work
00:42:51 of oversight of ucas's work um
00:42:52 um i think they they have access to a lot of information i think it depends how what you mean by oversight they don't
00:43:03 oversight they don't have any influence on on the accreditation decisions that we make but they they're consulted as part of our policy advisory council
00:43:14 our policy advisory council they're consulted on a one-to-one basis on things like fees and any other complaints and things like that so oversight they i
00:43:26 and things like that so oversight they i think i would say that they have a good view of what happens at ucas and they have access to any information that that they need
00:43:34 they need um to uh to satisfy themselves of our performance and operation can the government department direct ucas policies
00:43:45 policies no they can't can it direct any actions for ucas to take no it can't can the government department influence ucas on policies or actions
00:43:59 ucas on policies or actions they
00:43:59 they they they would have input into and we would see could potentially seek advice from them
00:44:06 from them would you kiss be free to take its own course though uh we yes we would as as as long as we continue to operate in accordance with the memorandum of understanding and the regulations
00:44:18 regulations does ucas deal with or have a relationship with any other government departments for example the mhclg as it was formerly known
00:44:29 mhclg as it was formerly known now known as the department for leveling up housing and communities um we don't have a um that that department mhclg is not a ucas member or a member of the
00:44:42 is not a ucas member or a member of the uh
00:44:43 uh list of sort of formal members of ucas we have lots of interaction with the department in relation to different schemes and different activities that fall within the scope of
00:44:55 within the scope of that government department's work how do you interact with that department for instance with meetings we participate in a lot of sort of joint
00:45:06 sort of joint groups
00:45:08 groups and committees or groups that might be run with with the department and you said that some other departments were members can you tell us who those
00:45:19 were members can you tell us who those departments are the department of health is one the department of environment food and rural affairs deferra
00:45:31 deferra there is a list actually advice yeah in my uh we shan't go to it unless we need to i'm just trying to get a general picture of the interaction that ucas has with government
00:45:43 with government um can we go just to talk about the general structure of ucas can we go to your first statement at page six that's code ucas double zero double one two four two page six thank
00:45:56 double one two four two page six thank you and we see at the bottom there's an organogram and at the top we see bays and a reference to the mou and to the side we see the ucas members
00:46:08 and to the side we see the ucas members which
00:46:10 which we've mentioned now members are i think mostly industry associations professional institutions and government departments aren't they
00:46:21 and government departments aren't they yes they fall into probably broadly speaking for four categories um that
00:46:27 um that that uh represent the interests or interested parties in well i've only named three so which have i missed industry associations government departments professional institutions
00:46:38 institutions and there is a um our direct customers um is is
00:46:45 um is is are also represented in in the members through uh associations so the british measurement testing association safeed which is an association of
00:46:56 safeed which is an association of inspection bodies and the abcb which is the association of british certification bodies when you say direct customers you mean
00:47:06 mean organization that ucas accredits yes now just returning to the organogram we've got under the mou we've got the board and the chief executive
00:47:18 board and the chief executive that
00:47:19 that is now that role is now held by matt gantley is that right that's correct previously it was paul stennett wasn't it yes
00:47:26 it yes now to the side we see policy advisory forum paf and policy advisory council now
00:47:34 now it may seem silly but presumably they advise cass on policy yes accreditation policy included yes now is um the council the smaller
00:47:45 now is um the council the smaller steering group of the two yes it is now um do those groups include
00:47:54 include as you say direct customers so bodies that ucas credits
00:48:00 associations of direct customers rather than individual customers i see so the associations that you've mentioned yes and and and others
00:48:11 you've mentioned yes and and and others which might be specific to a technical area i see and does that do those groups include indirect customers by which i mean for example a manufacturer who might
00:48:24 for example a manufacturer who might have their product certified or tested in one of your direct customers yes but again not a not an individual manufacturer but perhaps a trade
00:48:35 manufacturer but perhaps a trade association of uh
00:48:38 of uh of of similar met of member manufacturer members how are consumers represented on these on this group um consumers are um
00:48:49 this group um consumers are um there there are some organizations of the that are members of the policy advisory forum that would represent end users um but it is an area that is quite difficult sometimes for us to get
00:49:00 difficult sometimes for us to get engagement um we have had various uh attempts both at our sort of formal members and also in the policy advisory forum to expand
00:49:12 in the policy advisory forum to expand that it's an area where in fact it's a current objective we have uh it's been continuous right i'm just returning to the organogram we can see
00:49:22 can see under the ceo there's a number of departments me starting from the left commercial and then towards the right operations and
00:49:33 and technical business development and external affairs do you see that yes now is it right that your role is in the technical business development
00:49:44 is in the technical business development and external affairs yes that's correct we see a little line coming off the dotted line and we see technical advisory committees tac and other advisory committees does that indicate that
00:49:56 does that indicate that you or your department or your directorate is advised by technical advisory committees um
00:50:05 um not uh not exclusively um i think that the dotted line relates to the relationship because the um the sort of policy
00:50:14 policy of around the technical advisory committees is is operated out of the technical team but there is a link across into operations most definitely
00:50:25 across into operations most definitely and the advice that that is provided by those advisory committees is is very much directly fed into operations i see and i think it was your evidence that you and operations your
00:50:36 evidence that you and operations your directorate and operations work together on accreditation
00:50:42 now just as to the technical advisory committees can you give us an idea of what sorts of issues
00:50:51 issues the
00:50:52 the committees might discuss and advise ucas on um
00:50:59 um they will give advice if we need any um if we reach out to them or if if an issue arises that might require us to clarify the general
00:51:11 might require us to clarify the general requirements for accreditation uh the application of those requirements for a particular sector so they we will consult with them on on guidance documents
00:51:23 on guidance documents they will
00:51:24 they will give us advice on the technical competence of the criteria for selecting uh that we use for selecting assessors and they will also keep us connected
00:51:37 and they will also keep us connected into the the sector as well um through uh the different um types of members that are represented so um it it it allows a i think increases
00:51:50 um it it it allows a i think increases can increase communication between uh between ucas and and those sectors so it might be standards making it might be pending government policy or legislation
00:52:01 legislation for example perhaps what someone might call stakeholder engagement yes yes and am i right that the composition of a tac could include as we say direct customers
00:52:13 could include as we say direct customers and indirect customers is that fair yes that's correct and they might attend alongside representatives of ucas government regulators academia and other
00:52:24 regulators academia and other institutions is that fair that's correct now we've talked a lot about different bodies the members the policy advisory groups and the
00:52:35 the policy advisory groups and the technical advisory committees how does ucas manage impartiality in members of those groups members of so for example the ucas
00:52:47 members of so for example the ucas members
00:52:48 members the policy advisory forum and the technical advisory committees um
00:52:54 um if i take the policy advisory council first because that is a a smaller group to represent the larger group of the forum
00:53:04 forum we have um a sort of an even representation of the members representing so there is a balanced representation of interested parties in
00:53:15 representation of interested parties in that group and that council
00:53:20 acting on behalf of the forum reviews any relationships that ucas has with any what we call a related body so if we are to enter into an agreement perhaps with
00:53:32 to enter into an agreement perhaps with a
00:53:33 a a scheme owner or a government department an information sharing agreement for example
00:53:40 example we will do an analysis of of any impact on our impartiality and then we will present that to the council for their review and comment and advice can you just clarify what you
00:53:52 advice can you just clarify what you mean by related body well a related body because ucas is an independent organization we
00:54:01 we any relationship we have with with another organization needs to be very carefully managed and and to ensure that our impartiality is maintained so um
00:54:13 maintained so um i'll give you an example um information about accredited organizations a lot of that information is held in confidence under the contract but it might be
00:54:23 might be that a scheme owner may wish to access that information as part of the scheme and if all parties agree we can wave of that confidentiality and have an information sharing agreement
00:54:35 information sharing agreement if we have an information sharing agreement with another party they will become a related body i see
00:54:45 how does when constituting these groups for example the policy advisory council how does ucas ensure that all interests are balanced
00:54:56 are balanced appropriately um through the membership there are 12 seats on the council and we we we will ensure that one
00:55:07 and we we we will ensure that one particular interest doesn't dominate so there is a balanced representation of interests
00:55:13 interests which you can see from the membership so it wouldn't allow be allowed to be all government departments or customer groups there is a balance between those different stakeholder groups the members of the council are taken
00:55:26 the members of the council are taken from the policy advisory forum so the forum has the has the the say on nominating the members of the council now you've provided us with a list of
00:55:37 now you've provided us with a list of these technical advisory committees in your first statement on page 12. can we please go to that thank you and we can see there's a bullet point list and it starts uh
00:55:49 bullet point list and it starts uh paragraph a with asbestos construction industry engineering inspection forensic sciences and so forth do you see that yes
00:56:00 and so forth do you see that yes the second one there was construction industry am i right that sometimes this is called scitac yes that's correct if we go to page 14 of your first statement
00:56:12 statement at the bottom at par sub paragraph b you say
00:56:18 you say the role and work of the scitac is to provide technical advice to ucas on matters relating to the construction sector
00:56:26 sector this primarily relates to construction of infrastructure such as highways bridges etc as demonstrated through the tac membership and then you give us an idea of what it
00:56:38 and then you give us an idea of what it does it says its purpose includes providing technical advice on the following the formulation and review of specific technical criteria to facilitate
00:56:49 technical criteria to facilitate effective and consistent application of ucas activities in the field of construction testing inspection and product certification
00:57:00 and product certification and then we see it carries on i just want to pause there
00:57:05 first you say scitec is primarily focused on infrastructure bridges and roads and so forth now am i right that historically scitak has always focused
00:57:17 historically scitak has always focused on infrastructure i think that that's um that's certainly my impression from looking at the records yes why does ucas have a construction industry tac that
00:57:30 have a construction industry tac that focuses
00:57:31 focuses primarily on infrastructure um
00:57:36 um i think the as you've seen from the main list of technical committees technical advisory committees they are not then it's not an exhaustive list of all of the different activities
00:57:48 list of all of the different activities that ucas is involved with so the the technical advisory committees have tended to sort of respond to the needs of of the sector and and i think for established areas
00:58:01 and and i think for established areas where there hasn't been a need i mean i can't i can't account personally for for why um it wasn't a focus i think some years ago i know now it is a focus
00:58:13 it is a focus um
00:58:14 um for uh i think for for a number of reasons well we'll certainly come to yeah um
00:58:20 yeah um can we just uh pause for a minute and and
00:58:23 and would you tell me ucas invites people to sit on technical advisory committees doesn't it yes it does and that means ucas at one point decided
00:58:35 decided what specialties and interests would be represented on the construction industry technical advisory committee doesn't it yes and that means at one point ucas decided that the focus would be on
00:58:47 decided that the focus would be on infrastructure is that right i think that's a reasonable assumption and certainly
00:58:53 certainly the list of tacs that were in was in your um witness statement there's no additional body or additional committee
00:59:04 additional body or additional committee that would deal with fire performance testing of building products is there no there isn't and looking back at that looking at it now perhaps with the benefit of site of
00:59:15 perhaps with the benefit of site of hindsight
00:59:16 hindsight would you say that there's a gap in the technical advice that ucas had access to by these committees uh i think via the technical advisory committee's yes
00:59:28 committee's yes might i think this is not the only place that ucas would potentially get advice from ucas sits and colleagues sit on a very broad range of different groups
00:59:41 very broad range of different groups including
00:59:42 including standards
00:59:44 standards standards committees uh and so there's there's a number of different ways we have access to to our expertise to take advice i see you said earlier
00:59:55 you said earlier that
00:59:56 that perhaps things might have changed has do i take from that that ucas has expanded its focus by these committees to include perhaps
01:00:09 to include perhaps construction product testing and our certification in respect to fire performance that that is our intention and uh i think some something that we are starting to look
01:00:20 something that we are starting to look at now
01:00:21 at now i think one one thing that's impacted on that is the current activities around product regulation construction product regulation which we're also very closely involved with
01:00:32 involved with the work of the competent steering group posts the dame judith hackett review for example and all of those working groups so i think that is the place where we are currently
01:00:44 are currently interacting with key stakeholders and um
01:00:49 um and and and following that work very closely
01:00:52 closely to ensure that we take on board any of the any of the outcomes of of that work right
01:00:59 right can we go to your first statement at page 16
01:01:03 page 16 that's ucas20s thank you
01:01:06 thank you in the bottom half of the page subparagraph e we see the question that the inquiry has asked and it's whether
01:01:16 whether scitak whether the scitak has ever advised as to the testing and or classification of construction product systems
01:01:24 systems with regards to fire performance and then i think it's your answer immediately below and it says from a review of the scitak records it appears that
01:01:36 of the scitak records it appears that scitak has not provided advice on the testing and or classification of construction product systems with regards to fire performance and then you've identified three sets
01:01:47 you've identified three sets of minutes and we can see at the bottom of the page that they're from 1999 2000 and over the page
01:01:55 page we see another set of minutes also from 2000. now can we take it from your evidence that these three meetings are the only time as far as your record
01:02:06 the only time as far as your record review goes that scitak has ever discussed fire performance testing and classification of construction products yes
01:02:14 yes and does that tell us that scitak has not historically been concerned about that aspect of ucas's work with the construction industry yes i think so does it does it also tell
01:02:26 yes i think so does it does it also tell us that for the last few decades the fire testing of building uh construction products
01:02:33 products was not
01:02:34 was not a main topic of interest for ucas
01:02:40 um i think it it would depend what you mean by main topic of interest i think against the the scope of our activities
01:02:52 where we accredit thousands of different activities um i don't think anyone is a main one um i think that um but it it can i think
01:03:03 um i think that um but it it can i think definitely be seen that that that committee has not dealt with those those matters can we say that infrastructure was a higher priority than fire performance uh testing i wouldn't say that it was a
01:03:15 uh testing i wouldn't say that it was a higher priority in in the sense of well only if if in terms of the the scope of the activity of that committee there may have been
01:03:26 there may have been more issues that were considered to be relevant for that committee to to to deal with i see now
01:03:35 now looking at the minutes of these meetings you were not at these meetings that's very clear but i just want to look at one set of minutes to understand what
01:03:46 one set of minutes to understand what happens in these committees can we go to ucas
01:03:50 ucas 2010844
01:03:53 please
01:03:58 this is a meeting of scitak on the 7th of march
01:04:03 of march 2000
01:04:05 2000 and on page 2 we can see item 4.2
01:04:12 and we see it's regarding european fire testing issues
01:04:19 and we can see that three documents were tabled by someone called dr corkish and
01:04:26 and from our research i can tell you that the first one certainly is the constructive product a construction products directive the last one is it relates to
01:04:37 relates to consultation on european standards of fire performance so product testing and
01:04:45 and i think over the page page three
01:04:49 there's this minute at the top mr harris stated that mr key had written to organization groups who had indicated interest in new cass
01:05:01 who had indicated interest in new cass operations for initiative and as a result had met with the fire testing group in january 2000 this meeting discussed whether there were any issues appropriate for
01:05:12 were any issues appropriate for inclusion in the scitec ucas is awaiting further information from the group and and it goes on now ultimately ucas didn't set up at
01:05:23 now ultimately ucas didn't set up at that time any particular advisory group on fire testing did it
01:05:28 i i don't i don't know whether we did because um when looking at these uh minutes that that seems to imply that there is a group i think
01:05:40 group i think um but i've not been able to identify any records yes
01:05:44 yes well i can tell you that the next set of minutes this road was raised and it was decided that no group would be set up um we can go to that if necessary but
01:05:55 um we can go to that if necessary but this this is um
01:05:59 um about the european standards as adopted in the uk do you get that from your reading yes i do now does your cast have any role or influence in the content
01:06:11 any role or influence in the content of those standards um but potentially we have the opportunity to participate in
01:06:19 in um
01:06:21 um in standards making we have members of staff who sit on bsi the british standards institution committees technical committees as as experts where they where they have
01:06:33 as as experts where they where they have that expertise so um so we do have a a chance to do that through um what what is put into uh well at that time european legislation there are also groups for
01:06:47 legislation there are also groups for the notified bodies or there were at the time which is again another place uh that these matters i would imagine were likely to be discussed i've certainly attended not
01:06:58 discussed i've certainly attended not the construction one i've attended other similar groups where that is that is the core topic of discussion what is
01:07:06 what is if any ucas's interest in whether european fire test testing standards are adopted or used in the uk
01:07:17 are adopted or used in the uk um
01:07:19 um for the the adoption of those standards is not for ucas to um to prescribe uh that would be for a regulator or for policy to call those standards up
01:07:30 policy to call those standards up the standards that we use for assessing and accrediting bodies do make reference to the use of those those those standards international standards where they exist
01:07:42 international standards where they exist so
01:07:43 so there is certainly a an acceptable but it's not for ucas to specify the standards that are used if i can give you an example in around this time
01:07:54 in around this time the adoption of the en13501 classification uh fire for fire performance products
01:08:05 uh fire for fire performance products what
01:08:07 what ucas would have to accredit products to that standard if adopted could that be the reason that ucas is interested in what these standard how these standards are developing and being
01:08:18 these standards are developing and being adopted
01:08:19 adopted um well firstly we don't accredit products so we assess and accredit the organizations that evaluate or may evaluate products
01:08:30 or may evaluate products so if if they are going to utilize those standard methods or standard processes then yes we will they will ask for for those activities to be included in
01:08:42 for those activities to be included in their accreditation and we will assess them in order to assess them to see if they can perform correctly ucas would have to have some understanding of what for example
01:08:55 understanding of what for example en13501 requires that's correct now you've mentioned international standards i want to introduce that topic by first asking you questions about how ucas evaluates
01:09:06 questions about how ucas evaluates itself
01:09:07 itself and i understand and you say in your second statement that ucas
01:09:14 that ucas operates in compliance with iso iec 17011
01:09:20 17011 now pausing there iso i think stands for the international organization for standardization and iec stands for the international
01:09:31 and iec stands for the international electric
01:09:32 electric electro-technical commission is that right that's correct and they jointly publish something called the 17 000 series i think that's correct um i'm going to just say iso but when i say
01:09:44 i'm going to just say iso but when i say iso i mean i mean both bodies and
01:09:47 and certainly 17011 deals with accreditation bodies is that right yes and when ucas is performing assessments ucas itself must meet
01:09:58 assessments ucas itself must meet iso 17011 is that right that's correct can we go to your second statement ucas2011422
01:10:10 at page 3 please
01:10:13 and you've helpfully listed out some of the coverage of 17011
01:10:20 of 17011 and we see at 3.3.4
01:10:24 there's impartiality and independence and just with that in lay terms that means ucas is impartiality doesn't it yes it does now 3.3.8 for example we see
01:10:36 yes it does now 3.3.8 for example we see competent resource and over the page at 3.3.12 we see
01:10:42 we see for example process requirements and there's a long list of uh things that ucas has to do to meet its own uh international standard is that right
01:10:53 uh international standard is that right yes
01:10:54 yes now we saw reference to ucas's impartiality in that list i just want to dwell on that for a moment you tell us why this matters in your
01:11:05 you tell us why this matters in your first statement i'd just like to go to that at page 17. so that's ucas2011
01:11:14 at page 17 thank you paragraph 12 you say
01:11:19 you say for accreditation to provide confidence to the marketplace it is essential that it is undertaken impartially and that impartiality of personnel involved in the accreditation process is
01:11:31 involved in the accreditation process is not compromised by commercial financial or other pressure pressures this is reflected in the ucas document qms 1000 ucas impartiality policy and we
01:11:44 qms 1000 ucas impartiality policy and we can see that you've exhibited it in particular the person making the decision on granting renewing extending or reducing withdrawing accreditation is
01:11:56 or reducing withdrawing accreditation is always independent of the team that undertook the assessment so can we take from that that impartiality is very central to the role of
01:12:06 of of ucas yes and you referred to the qms 1001 policy your exhibit age can we go to that at ucas2011255
01:12:23 can we go to the last page page four please
01:12:27 please and right at the bottom we see change history and it says it stated the first issue 16th of may 2018 document first published
01:12:38 document first published was this ucas's first standalone impartiality policy yes it was our first standalone document impartiality was a requirement of
01:12:50 was a requirement of iso 17011 before 2018 though wasn't it yes it was how did you ensure its impartiality before this document was created
01:13:00 created um
01:13:01 um through
01:13:02 through the policy was um and and i think to some extent still is repeated um and and prior to the uh the publication of the stand-alone policy
01:13:13 policy was held in our management framework document which is essentially our our quality manual if you like and also our accreditation process document policy and process
01:13:26 process document policy and process policy and requirements document which is a document we call acc 1000. and then there's also reference to it in contracts um as well with uh with
01:13:38 contracts um as well with uh with assessors yes and you've mentioned acc 1000 can you just tell us we will come to it later but can you just tell us what that is to help the panel acc 1000 is a um a quite
01:13:50 help the panel acc 1000 is a um a quite a large detailed document which outlines um the the process for assessment and accreditation so it contains the details of the the steps involved in the
01:14:02 of the the steps involved in the accreditation process and the requirements that um that we need to meet
01:14:08 meet and just coming back to this 2018 policy can you tell us what prompted ucas to write a standalone policy on impartiality
01:14:19 impartiality yes i can
01:14:20 yes i can in
01:14:21 in 2017
01:14:23 2017 iso 17011
01:14:25 iso 17011 the standard that we need to meet was revised
01:14:29 revised and that that document itself sort of reordered the requirements for impartiality and it seemed a sensible thing to to reflect that change in in our management
01:14:41 reflect that change in in our management system
01:14:43 system very well so this is a good moment for a parade yes all right well that's good time to take it then well mr turner we have a break as you know
01:14:55 mr turner we have a break as you know halfway through each session this is the time to take the break for the afternoon we'll stop now we'll resume please at 20 to 4
01:15:03 to 4 and now you started giving your evidence i have to ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it while you're out of the room of course thank you good thank you would you like to give the usher then please
01:15:24 thank you very much 20-40
01:31:12 would you ask mr turner to come back in please
01:31:27 ready to carry on yes thank you thank you very much thank you sir mrs turner i want to talk now about what accreditation means in a little bit of detail
01:31:38 detail and i think you can define it as it's where an authoritative body like ucas
01:31:45 ucas formally recognizes another body like a testing laboratory and it says whether it's competent to carry out a task is is that a fair
01:31:56 carry out a task is is that a fair working
01:31:57 working definition for accreditation yes now in very broad and simple terms it's not a check on whether a facility got the right answer on anything is it
01:32:08 right answer on anything is it or at least not necessarily it's not a check on those individual answers no my understanding is that ucas looks at how a body operates
01:32:19 how a body operates uh and how it has systems and safeguards and how it deploys them is that right that's correct and we see in the documents a term
01:32:30 and we see in the documents a term called conformity assessment bodies sometimes called cabs uh can you just tell us that they're the body that they're the bodies that the
01:32:41 body that they're the bodies that the ucas accredits like for example the laboratory yes and if i were to give two examples they might be the building research establishment bre and the british board
01:32:52 establishment bre and the british board of agramal is that right yes that's great
01:32:55 great now would you describe the bodies as ucas's customers yes
01:33:01 yes and i'm right these are the bodies that pay for ucasa services is that yes and these bodies enter a contract with ucas is that is that right that's correct and that contract is always on
01:33:13 correct and that contract is always on newcastle's standard terms is that right yes that's correct
01:33:19 i want to just ask you now about how ucas uses
01:33:23 ucas uses particular international standards to assess these bodies can we go to bsi 401726
01:33:38 and this is iso 17025 and we can see it's called general requirements for the competence of testing and calibration laboratories and
01:33:49 testing and calibration laboratories and this is the version as it was when it was amended in 2006. there's a more recent one it's been published in 2018 but this is the one that covers the period in which this inquiry is most
01:34:01 period in which this inquiry is most interested in so i'll refer to this can we go to the main contents page at page seven
01:34:07 seven we can see that it sets out a number of requirements i just want to draw your attention to section four management requirements and under that we have things like
01:34:19 and under that we have things like organization management system document control and then towards the bottom at 4.14 we've got internal audits and management reviews
01:34:32 audits and management reviews then under that we have technical requirements and again there's a there's a list of points which are 5.2 personnel
01:34:43 points which are 5.2 personnel 5.3 accommodation and environmental conditions so this gives us a sense of what this standard covers and
01:34:52 and is it right that this document is at least one that the that ucas will use to decide if if a facility can be accredited
01:35:04 a facility can be accredited uh yes it is uh for laboratories this one yes for specifically for laboratories conducting testing calibration as we saw in them there are others and we will come to them later in
01:35:15 others and we will come to them later in your evidence but for a body such as the bre who wishes to be accredited to do fire testing this would be a document that ucas would use to assess
01:35:26 document that ucas would use to assess it yes
01:35:29 it yes now i understand that ucas records exactly what a body is accredited to do on something called a schedule of accreditation is that right that's correct
01:35:38 correct these are publicly available aren't they yes they're published on our website can we just go to an example so we get a sense of what they are we can see one at ucas 304908
01:35:54 and we can see that at the top this is for bre global limited and this is number 78 and it was published on the or at least it's dated on the 28th of february 2014.
01:36:08 on the 28th of february 2014. now on the left we see ucas's testing logo and on the underneath that we can see that it's accredited to iso 17025.
01:36:19 see that it's accredited to iso 17025. now
01:36:20 now it may be quite obvious but does this document tell us that as at this date the bre was accredited to the standard of 17025 to perform the activities that
01:36:31 of 17025 to perform the activities that are listed in it yes that's correct now i can tell you this document's 57 pages long does that tell us that the bre had a great deal of activities it was accredited to perform
01:36:43 activities it was accredited to perform under that standard yes can we go to page four and we see a table with four columns
01:36:54 table with four columns materials type of test standard specifications and location and in the middle of the page but actually the bottom row it says fire tests
01:37:04 tests and if we look at the second one it says reaction to fire and in the third column we can see there eight four one four part one and part two do you see those
01:37:15 part one and part two do you see those yes i do and then towards the bottom we can find towards the very bottom we can see bs 476 part six nbs 476 part seven
01:37:27 nbs 476 part seven and is this how we know that on that date
01:37:30 date the bre was accredited by ucas to perform those tests yes and does it tell us that ucas view was that the bre's performance of those tests were at the level as required
01:37:42 tests were at the level as required by iso 17025 yes
01:37:47 yes and does it also tell us that the bre in newcastle's view conformed to the other requirements of iso 17065 for example impartiality and record maintenance and
01:37:59 impartiality and record maintenance and those management points sorry you said 17 or 65. i meant 1705 yes that is yes i'm absolutely well corrected 17 00
01:38:10 yes i'm absolutely well corrected 17 00 25 that
01:38:13 25 that but the rest of my question stands for example impartiality and so forth yes
01:38:18 i want to look now at how ucas accredits bodies or assesses bodies can we go to your exhibit 11 which is ucas
01:38:30 which is ucas ucas2011246 please
01:38:36 this is gen 1
01:38:39 gen 1 and it's the general principles for the assessment of conformity assessment bodies
01:38:44 bodies by ucas
01:38:46 by ucas now does this set out in general terms how bodies should be assessed for accreditation yes this is the um the public document is the published document that very much mirrors our
01:38:58 document that very much mirrors our internal document that i mentioned earlier acc 1000. yes it's a um
01:39:04 um is it fair to say it's a slightly more simplified less detailed document now this one stated 2021 but would i be right to say that the overall process for accreditation
01:39:16 the overall process for accreditation has generally in broad term stayed the same for many years
01:39:21 years in terms of the principle of conducting assessments yes yes can we go to page 13 which has a diagram
01:39:32 and this is what i mean by the general process has largely not changed from left to right we see that the body makes an
01:39:43 we see that the body makes an application for accreditation then there's a contract review and it's at that point where ucas may or may not enter a contract with a
01:39:54 may or may not enter a contract with a body is that right um
01:39:57 um not uh not as such because the the contract um we have an agreement which is signed at the start of the process
01:40:08 at the start of the process um the the ucas terms the contract review is is sort of language we use to describe our evaluation of their application
01:40:20 application so we look at the resources that we need the amount of time what the uh request is yes and if the amount of time is great perhaps that might affect the fee that newcastle
01:40:31 might affect the fee that newcastle charge
01:40:33 charge situation you might need to do a project to be able
01:40:37 be able to accredit if it's a new a new thing that ucas hasn't done before uh yes well the there's slightly different things but if if the application stage if it's an
01:40:48 the application stage if it's an activity that we've already accredited before we we don't need any development activity
01:40:54 activity we will then proceed identify the team identify how much time we believe we need at that at that point and then we'll provide a a quotation to the
01:41:05 we'll provide a a quotation to the organization right just looking at the diagram the next step is seems to be an optional step that's pre-assessment and that appears to be a paper review
01:41:16 to be a paper review of the perhaps the likely outcome of
01:41:20 of an assessment it can be a desktop assessment or it can be an on-site assessment and then we have the fourth box the initial assessment and i think this is
01:41:33 initial assessment and i think this is the first formal assessment that ucas does of the body is that right for for a new um for an organization that's not already accredited that would be the case yes
01:41:46 accredited that would be the case yes and moving across to the right of this diagram we see the big blue box which says full assessment and decision making i'll come back to that in a moment
01:41:57 moment from
01:41:58 from from that box we see there's three um diamond shaped boxes all which have surveillance in it and i've understood that that means that for the next three years
01:42:10 for the next three years after decisions made there's a surveillance cycle so once a year ucas will surveil the body yes that's that's correct although the first surveillance
01:42:21 first surveillance assessment for a new organization normally takes place six months after the grant
01:42:28 the grant and thereafter every yeah and then at the end of that four year
01:42:33 year after after three surveillances then there's another full-scale reassessment is that right that's correct now for each assessment so for a reassessment or for a
01:42:44 so for a reassessment or for a surveillance ucas will prepare a visit plan which sets out what ucas will be looking at is that right yes and that will follow something called the assessment program is that right
01:42:55 is that right yes we have a a an assessment program for an accredited organization outlining our in our plans for covering the scope which
01:43:06 our plans for covering the scope which is the list of tests on the the schedule list of activities on the schedule over the four-year period and at each of these visits ucas will usually attend and conduct a
01:43:18 will usually attend and conduct a physical inspection is that right we carry out an on-site assessment is is the usual process and possibly in covert times they might be done remotely yes but on the whole it is
01:43:32 done remotely yes but on the whole it is the default is there's a physical inspection uh yes we call them just in terms of sort of language we call it an assessment rather than a rather than inspection really because we're not just looking at
01:43:43 really because we're not just looking at what's happening on the day that we arrive we're looking at
01:43:47 at the records demonstrating the organization's compliance and implementation of its systems prior to the assessment and also an indication that they'll be sustainable going forward so the
01:43:59 sustainable going forward so the language you use is an assessment i will attempt to use that uh in future the these assessments um they can be with a number of people
01:44:10 um they can be with a number of people so a number of assessors can go to the body to assess is that right not just one person and they might be specialized people with special technical knowledge and
01:44:21 with special technical knowledge and ability is that right yes they will be
01:44:26 and in advance of an assessment does ucas consider documents uh and do a does ucas consider documents from the
01:44:38 does ucas consider documents from the body yes we do do you ask for those documents in advance yes we we do can you give us an idea of what documents you get in advance um we may ask for any updates to
01:44:51 we may ask for any updates to things like their their main processes and policies um probably a more old-fashioned language is a quality manual but they're sort of their main policy document any technical procedures that we are
01:45:04 any technical procedures that we are going to be looking at we might ask for other records any key changes outcome of management reviews things
01:45:16 outcome of management reviews things like that it will be for the team to decide you know how easy it is to look at those things on site yes and when they're on site am i right that assessors might do a range of things for instance
01:45:27 instance physically witness staff performing technical duties yes reviewing technical records yes inspecting premises or assessing premises and the environmental
01:45:38 premises and the environmental conditions yes and conducting interviews with personnel yes
01:45:43 yes now there's a term witnessed assessment or witnessing can i just explore that for a moment does it mean that the ucas assessor goes to the body and watches staff performing the
01:45:55 and watches staff performing the technique
01:45:56 technique yes it can do yes um so for example a ucas assessor might go and watch a british standard 476 part six test uh might that might be on an actual
01:46:08 uh might that might be on an actual client specimen yes right yes it might just be on a mock-up or a leftover sample is that right yes it um it does depend ideally we will see
01:46:19 um it does depend ideally we will see live testing on real samples but the nature of some tests are that they're not performed that frequently or they may take place over a number of days sometimes weeks so um
01:46:32 days sometimes weeks so um we might see a bit of a sort of maybe something that's been pre-prepared that's something that will be discussed with the
01:46:40 with the with the laboratory prior to the assessment and and also on on the day as well well that's that's really my next question who decides what ucas will assess
01:46:52 decides what ucas will assess during an assessment the um every organization has a an allocated assessment manager so
01:47:00 so who is a permanent member of ucas staff they're often a technical person as well but unlikely to have all of the technical capability for that particular organization
01:47:11 organization so they will make the um we'll take the lead on proposing the the assessment program so once the four-year assessment program is has been developed they'll use that to
01:47:24 has been developed they'll use that to plan each individual assessment they may make some changes for for a number of reasons perhaps the scope's changed or
01:47:33 tests have been removed for example and then but the assessment manager will also work in conjunction with their assessment team so they will consult the individual experts
01:47:44 individual experts as to what they would like to see because they've got the knowledge about what's practical for example what input does the conformity assessment body itself have in planning the assessment
01:47:55 itself have in planning the assessment program
01:47:57 program they do not have an input in terms of deciding what what we want to look at but
01:48:03 but as i've already said there sometimes are some practical challenges so
01:48:08 so for example if there's a test that that we want we particularly want to witness we may make a separate arrangements to look at that separately on a different occasion so we need to liaise with the
01:48:19 occasion so we need to liaise with the organization as to what's what's available and if something's on a visit plan but isn't available what happens then is it held over to another
01:48:29 another is it
01:48:30 is it potentially if it's not considered to be a risk um but you will also see an on the example schedule that that you showed earlier some of those tests will be quite
01:48:41 some of those tests will be quite similar
01:48:42 similar so when we're looking at the organization's competence as a whole it might not be considered necessary to see every step of every test if we can read across from
01:48:53 read across from one one competency that's been demonstrated being equivalent to something else i think um one of the ucas witness statements by mr john ledbeter uses the example that eight
01:49:06 ledbeter uses the example that eight four one four part one is similar to eight four one four part two would that be the sort of thing you're referring to yes we saw earlier that the bre schedule for
01:49:17 we saw earlier that the bre schedule for example was very extensive and
01:49:22 and well perhaps the reality is that conformity assessment bodies perform a lot of services and have a lot of staff and a lot of equipment would that be fair
01:49:34 would that be fair for example the bre just by way of example
01:49:37 example um yes i'm not sure what you well i'll ask my question what i'm getting at is you cast can really only ever see a snapshot of how the body is performing
01:49:49 the body is performing would you say that's fair uh in terms of the activities that we witness um i think it absolutely is a sampling exercise
01:49:58 exercise um it will be what we see on on the day from the witness but we will also look at records so sometimes if we're not able to witness um maybe for practical reasons something that we've put on the
01:50:11 reasons something that we've put on the assessment plan for that is the visit plan for that year then we will talk to the staff involved we'll look at records we'll do a vertical audit perhaps which is is
01:50:22 a vertical audit perhaps which is is something where we take a look at the the records of a whole life cycle of the of the job if you like from the time the sample came through the doors of the laboratory right the way through to reporting
01:50:34 through to reporting right
01:50:35 right during an assessment an assessor might raise an improvement action can you tell us what they are well when we conduct an assessment if we identify the assessor identifies
01:50:46 identify the assessor identifies something that they believe may not be in compliance with this with the standard they will record the finding as as a fact you know they saw that the equipment record wasn't up to date they
01:50:59 equipment record wasn't up to date they saw they didn't have any validation data for something so they'll record a finding
01:51:05 finding when they consider them as they go through the assessment because you're gathering information so towards the end of the assessment the findings will be reviewed and identified if they are non-conformities yes and
01:51:16 if they are non-conformities yes and when when there's a non-conformity identified does the body have to take some action yes they do and who decides what action the body has to take
01:51:25 to take the body decides what action they take in in terms of fixing and putting in place preventing preventive measures understanding what's
01:51:37 preventive measures understanding what's gone wrong that is for the body to decide but they will propose often proposed during the assessment what they'll do and the assessor might give some feedback at that point but the the the
01:51:48 feedback at that point but the the the decision about what they do is is with the body yeah why is that because um it's a really important part of our role to maintain our impartiality not to give
01:52:00 to maintain our impartiality not to give consultancy i see and then when the body proposes an action then is it up to ucas to decide if that action is sufficient we'll review the evidence yes i've seen a term identifying the root
01:52:12 i've seen a term identifying the root cause in relation to improvement actions are you familiar with that yes can you tell me what that means when a
01:52:20 when a non-conformity is raised we don't just require the organization to fix the problem but to understand what led to the problem arising in the first
01:52:31 led to the problem arising in the first place
01:52:32 place so
01:52:33 so now sometimes that might be a simple thing in which case a root cause analysis isn't particularly extensive but it might be that that there are some underlying
01:52:44 underlying issues or risks that have led to to that incident so we ask them to consider that as part of what we call their corrective action yes we've spoken about the standard four
01:52:57 we've spoken about the standard four cycle but i believe that ucas can also conduct extra visits and unannounced visits is that is that right that's correct
01:53:06 correct and i suppose that means what it says that an extra visit is in addition to the four year cycle yes and an unannounced visit is one that a body isn't notified of
01:53:17 a body isn't notified of or has very little notified notification of that's correct are they unusual um they are in fact actually i had i
01:53:28 um they are in fact actually i had i have had a look to see how many uh extra um visits we've done in the last uh year or so um and it's of the order of about 120.
01:53:40 120. and
01:53:41 and in in over that time period i looked at 12 month period there were six unannounced and if
01:53:47 and if you think based on the the numbers i gave at the beginning of accredited organizations that each have an annual assessment you can see the sort of proportion yes i'm not going to do the maths in my head
01:53:59 i'm not going to do the maths in my head but we can do that if necessary but it's a reasonably small proportion yes
01:54:06 talking about the impartiality of the body itself am i right that it's a requirement in at least some of the 17 000 standards
01:54:18 in at least some of the 17 000 standards the iso 17000 series standards for the body to be impartial is it um
01:54:26 um the there are requirements uh in relation to impartiality yes in in the standards certainly in iso 17025
01:54:35 iso 17025 there's a requirement for impartiality yes and in iso 0 17065
01:54:41 0 17065 there's a requirement for impartiality yes
01:54:44 yes how does ucas assess a body's impartiality um
01:54:50 um we we assess it by looking for the for the presence of objectivity is is i think a quite a good way of of describing it
01:55:01 describing it so we look for evidence factual evidence of them implementing their um
01:55:09 um their procedures that they're not influenced that there isn't a bias that they've got the controls they also need to understand any potential threats to their impartiality
01:55:21 potential threats to their impartiality and describe and implement ways in which that they manage those and of course those things could can change over time potentially so they need to be continually looking at looking at that
01:55:32 continually looking at looking at that well it might be said that a person by which i mean a body or an individual might perhaps even unconsciously have a partiality
01:55:43 partiality and that person might be unlikely to reveal it particularly if they're not aware of it how does ucas assure itself that it's assessing impartiality
01:55:54 that it's assessing impartiality robustly
01:55:56 robustly through
01:55:57 through i think the the the general processes we have to to look at the rigor of our assessments um
01:56:05 um impartiality is an and it's similar to integrity as sometimes quite difficult things to sort of go in and actually say we're going to look at impartiality you you generally find
01:56:17 you you generally find um
01:56:18 um if there's problems and issues with impartiality you find an absence of impartiality you find records that suggest that there has been a bias
01:56:27 a bias so
01:56:28 so it is um it's not an always easy thing for us to sort of approach with a with a sort of defined list of things to look for yes something that is discovered perhaps in
01:56:40 something that is discovered perhaps in the breach yes yes i want to turn to non-conforming work at this point can we go to gen 1 page 17 so that's
01:56:53 go to gen 1 page 17 so that's ucas2011246 at page 17.
01:57:00 and this is a very dense document at the bottom we see surveillance activities and if we carry on so that's the header if we carry on over to page 18
01:57:12 if we carry on over to page 18 it says this at paragraph 4.5.2 the
01:57:18 the conformity assessment body must inform ucas of any significant changes to staff resource including key equipment technical capability or any significant
01:57:31 technical capability or any significant complaints and non-conforming work during the year as per the requirements in the ucas agreement now just about that term significant
01:57:42 now just about that term significant non-conforming work we did ask you about this in your and you replied in your second statement which is ucas two zeros
01:57:50 two zeros 11422
01:57:52 11422 at page 11.
01:57:56 paragraph 8.1
01:57:59 you say ucas considers this to be any incident circumstances or issues that the cab identifies or becomes aware of that may affect the customer's
01:58:11 of that may affect the customer's ability to comply with the ucas agreement or to fulfill the requirements for accreditation as set out in its certificate and schedule of accreditation and just staying with your second
01:58:23 and just staying with your second statement immediately under that paragraph 9.1 you say significant non-conforming work must be disclosed with minimal delay routine assessments will include looking
01:58:35 routine assessments will include looking at a cabs non-conforming work process and records of non-conforming work and associated corrective and preventive actions
01:58:46 actions so we see that there's a reference to the contract terms in gen 1. i just before i ask you any questions i just want to look at
01:58:55 at contract terms can we go to ucas2011302
01:59:06 this is we can see at the bottom the february 2016 version of contract terms issue number two can we go to page 7 clause 3.3
01:59:20 and at the bottom yes it says this the customer undertakes to ucas to notify it of any circumstances which may affect the customer's ability to comply
01:59:31 affect the customer's ability to comply with this agreement or may otherwise affect or potentially affect the customer's ability to fulfill the requirements for accreditation as set out in its certificate and then under there is a list
01:59:44 and then under there is a list first is any change in its legal commercial ownership or organizational status any order being made for winding up down to the next paragraph any action
01:59:56 down to the next paragraph any action being taken to enforce security next paragraph any changes to its top management or key personnel any change in its premises equipment facilities resources or working
02:00:07 facilities resources or working environment any significant change in its conformity assessment processes practices or procedures or any change in its principal business policies
02:00:18 principal business policies now looking at this contract the term significant non-conforming work it's not defined in the contract anywhere is it i don't believe so now and it's not in
02:00:29 i don't believe so now and it's not in the contract it's not it's not stated in the contract at all as far as we can tell is that right that's i i i think so yes a conformity assessment body reading
02:00:40 a conformity assessment body reading their contract consider that it only has to notify ucas if it falls into one of these circumstances of change um i think this contract wouldn't be
02:00:52 um i think this contract wouldn't be looked at in isolation because um if the the the um paragraph 3.3 makes reference to this list as
02:01:03 makes reference to this list as including that actually makes the general point about any circumstances which may affect the customer's ability to comply with the agreement or fulfill the requirements for
02:01:14 fulfill the requirements for accreditation so it's your understanding that a body would be obliged to notify you cass of any significant non-conformance or conforming work yes through through this
02:01:25 conforming work yes through through this and what it says in gen 1. how would outside of a visit how would a conformity assessment body disclose significant non-conforming work
02:01:37 disclose significant non-conforming work is there a process for that there is there is a process um in that they would contact their assessment manager and these are things that are discussed with the
02:01:46 the um with the organization as well you know when they first become accredited and
02:01:51 and um and and when they have their surveillance assessments as well so it's not it's not something that's looked at in isolation there is that ongoing communication between the organization and the assessment manager
02:02:03 and the assessment manager very well can we go to page 12 of your second statement that's ucas2011422
02:02:13 paragraph 11.1 and you so you see the question above that how does ucas ensure that the conformity assessment body informs you cass of significant
02:02:25 informs you cass of significant non-conforming work and your answer at paragraph 11.1 is ucas cannot guarantee that cabs will provide prompt notification of significant
02:02:37 notification of significant non-conforming work non-conforming work records are reviewed as part of the assessment process so any failure of the cab to inform you cass of significant non-conforming work at the
02:02:50 significant non-conforming work at the time it occurs is likely to be identified during assessment if it's not been disclosed prior to the assessment and then you go on to talk about instances where you may receive information from another source such as
02:03:02 information from another source such as a complainant or a whistleblower now to understand from that that records of non-conforming work cabs are required to keep records of
02:03:14 required to keep records of non-conforming work yes and ucas reviews them as a part of the regular assessment program yes yes and does the ucas assessor review all of
02:03:25 and does the ucas assessor review all of the records or just a sample it would just be a sample does the assessor evaluate them so for example would the assessor evaluate how serious the non-conformity
02:03:37 evaluate how serious the non-conformity is
02:03:38 is yes they will or how frequently it is occurring
02:03:43 occurring would it be fair to say that this system relies
02:03:46 relies quite heavily on the honesty and openness of the cab i think the whole of the ongoing maintenance of the requirements for accreditation falls in falls into
02:03:58 for accreditation falls in falls into that category and then but but it's we will then look at their performance through our assessments so we can't guarantee that that they
02:04:10 so we can't guarantee that that they will provide the information um i don't think that i think that would be really really difficult for us to do we have measures in place to encourage them mechanisms to to look at it when when we receive it
02:04:23 to look at it when when we receive it and and sanctions to impose if we find that they haven't been um but they're that they will implement a management system in their organization and we will be looking at the effectiveness of that and they
02:04:34 the effectiveness of that and they should do
02:04:36 should do but what happens if there's a significant non-com piece of significant non-conforming work and they decide to cover it up that you don't have a system as it s as far as i can see at the moment to
02:04:48 far as i can see at the moment to examine uh records and practices over a preceding period to try and spot that sort of problem that's um
02:04:58 um the when we do our assessment we will look at records from that of the organization and and we when you look at things like conducting a vertical audit you'll sample across
02:05:10 a vertical audit you'll sample across many different aspects of their system so
02:05:13 so um
02:05:14 um there is no guarantee against major sort of fraud or major covering up i i think that would be in i think that would be impossible but there is there are many occasions
02:05:26 but there is there are many occasions when our assessments will assessors will identify
02:05:31 identify or have many examples rather it's not i think something's particularly common but they will find discrepancies that then lead because perhaps if someone's intent on covering
02:05:42 perhaps if someone's intent on covering something up there don't always do it that well
02:05:45 that well so you know we have examples of that if it's done incredibly well like a criminal act it you know there is that potential that it might not get picked up there isn't a guarantee with this what it is is a look at that the
02:05:57 what it is is a look at that the organization is operating has evidence that it is operating with integrity and that it is implementing its system right yes thank you thank you mr stone if it's if it's only
02:06:09 thank you mr stone if it's if it's only a sample
02:06:10 a sample and if the conformity assessment body may not report
02:06:17 report um
02:06:17 um it is right isn't it but non-conformities may never be spotted i mean that's that's got to be right isn't it
02:06:26 it i think i think there is there is that potential yes but we're also looking at i think it's a question of minimizing that as i said i don't think there is a guarantee that that that can't happen
02:06:39 guarantee that that that can't happen um but
02:06:40 um but we are also looking at how the organization manages its own systems and audits
02:06:47 audits conducts audits or arrange ranges audits to be conducted and we'll be looking at the evidence that it gathers so there are many opportunities to
02:06:58 so there are many opportunities to identify
02:06:59 identify non-conforming work over and above just their records of non-conforming work
02:07:06 right can we just staying with your second statement at page 13.
02:07:14 question 14 a we
02:07:17 we asked you what steps ucas would require the conformity assessment body to take if ucas were to find an instance of significant non-conforming work and you
02:07:29 significant non-conforming work and you say it paragraph 14.1 the cab would be required to take appropriate action to investigate the non-conformity determine the cause which may include
02:07:41 determine the cause which may include multiple contributing factors correct the non-conformities determine the need for for further action to ensure that the non-confirmed performance do not recur
02:07:53 performance do not recur determine the actions needed and implement them into timely manner maintain records of action and review effectiveness of those actions action may include ceasing the conformity assessment activity and
02:08:04 conformity assessment activity and informing affected cab customers if the validity of the output of the accredited activities was impacted for example the validity of reported test results
02:08:17 validity of reported test results and i want to focus on that last part action may include informing cab customers are you saying that ucas
02:08:25 that ucas requires the body to take action like informing its own customers that test results might be invalid
02:08:35 invalid that is one possible outcome of of that investigation so if they identify results that have been reported
02:08:42 reported to be incorrect then then they are required to inform their customers how how is that enforced by ucas
02:08:51 by ucas through any non-conformity that we would raise and we would then ask to see evidence that they have have
02:08:57 have taken that action and when you say evidence is that is that how copies of correspondence to the customer a reissued report i see
02:09:08 a reissued report i see now i'm going to show you some documents which you might not have seen but i would like your view on them in this context of non-conformity can we please go to bba
02:09:19 can we please go to bba 50178
02:09:26 this is an email chain between dclg and the bba
02:09:31 the bba the bba is accredited by ucas to certify products isn't it yes and as i've indicated we'll talk about that in more detail later in your evidence can we start at page three
02:09:42 evidence can we start at page three please
02:09:44 please this is an email dated 11th of july 2014 timed at 16 40. we can see it's from brian martin and he's the principal construction professional at dclg or was at this time
02:09:58 professional at dclg or was at this time and it's to john alban who at this time was the head of approvals of construction products at the bba and brian martin says at the second paragraph
02:10:09 paragraph it's come to my attention that bba cert 452 2008
02:10:15 452 2008 included advice that the product in question satisfied paragraph 12.7 of volume 2 of approved document b paragraph 12.7 provides that insulation materials used in external walls should
02:10:28 materials used in external walls should be materials of limited combustibility it would appear however that the product in question is not a material of limited combustibility i'm also aware that certificate 08452
02:10:42 i'm also aware that certificate 08452 has been recently revised and this reference has been removed i'm concerned that the original certificate may have been issued an error as this is a serious safety matter
02:10:54 serious safety matter i would appreciate it if you could investigate and advise me of the outcome of your investigation as soon as possible
02:11:01 possible if we go up to page two at the bottom of the page we see an email from john alban dated 16th of july
02:11:11 at the second paragraph he says the amendments made on the 6th of april 2010 to certificate 008 4582 included a new reference to paragraph
02:11:22 included a new reference to paragraph 12.7 of approved document b this was not intended to apply imply that the product was of limited combustibility and as you have observed was removed in the subsequent issue
02:11:35 was removed in the subsequent issue dated 17th of december 2013 the reference to paragraph 12.7 seems to have been an unfortunate and rare oversight
02:11:46 oversight that would not escape the internal checks and measures that the bba currently operate a review of other certificates has confirmed that this has not been reproduced elsewhere
02:11:57 reproduced elsewhere and if we can go up to the top of page two we can see brian martin's response and he says the second paragraph for completeness i wonder if you could confirm a couple of
02:12:09 wonder if you could confirm a couple of things for me what has bba put in place since the original certificate was issued to make you so confident this won't happen again a summary would be fine will you be notifying the manufacturer
02:12:20 will you be notifying the manufacturer certificate holder of the issue and finally at the very top of page one mr alban responded on the 23rd of july and he says
02:12:32 and he says this mistake was basically caused by human error the project manager involved and their line manager no longer work in the bba's operations department
02:12:43 the bba's operations department we
02:12:44 we are addressing the overall issue in three ways we have introduced a new training program for all staff focusing on both technical and procedural matters an additional level of checking has been introduced via the new management
02:12:56 introduced via the new management structure and we've placed more emphasis on certificate templates which are commented on by internal and external experts prior to finalizing [Applause]
02:13:07 [Applause] now just pausing that this error appears to pertain to the description of fire performance of a product in terms of whether it met certain
02:13:18 in terms of whether it met certain requirements of the statutory guidance approved document b would such an error be considered non-conforming work according to ucas
02:13:29 non-conforming work according to ucas it would be considered as non-conforming work yes
02:13:32 work yes would ucas have expected the bba to notify it immediately on discovering this
02:13:39 this um
02:13:40 um i would say without knowing the details um that it would depend because if it was
02:13:46 was it would be for the conformity assessment body to decide or to determine the impact of that non-conforming work because you you i it would not be practical or appropriate
02:13:58 would not be practical or appropriate for every
02:13:59 for every change of a of a report to be reported to ucas
02:14:03 to ucas it absolutely should be reported in their system and then um depending on the the root cause of and the impact um if if it's all impacting as in accordance with the
02:14:16 all impacting as in accordance with the um as stated in our agreement their ability to continue to meet the requirements for accreditation then yes in circumstances where mr martin has said this is a safety
02:14:27 mr martin has said this is a safety issue would you not expect ucas to be informed of this in any event um
02:14:35 um [Music]
02:14:37 [Music] i think i think it it it depends i think as i as i've said as i said before when when reading this email now looking at the just and this would just be my opinion
02:14:49 be my opinion um of the the types of action that they've taken does suggest uh more than a
02:14:54 a um maybe just an error on a you know type the wrong thing sort of thing because they've suggested retraining so that maybe implies that there was a problem with the training but i am you know that's uh
02:15:06 know that's uh justin yes my immediate thought really yes
02:15:09 yes the effect of the certificate was that whatever mr albon says by a way of seeking to diminish the importance of what it said it said that a particular product
02:15:21 it said that a particular product complied with a paragraph of the guidance which required materials of limited combustibility
02:15:32 materials of limited combustibility thereby implied i think inevitably that it was a material of limited combustibility when it wasn't now would that
02:15:40 that count as a significant uh error
02:15:44 uh error i think it it is a significant error yes now it should have been reported straight away
02:15:55 yes yeah right sorry yes thank you the next assessment of the bba after this email which was july 2014
02:16:07 this email which was july 2014 was in april 2000 i think it's in the next year in in the april
02:16:13 april and
02:16:14 and the assessment report doesn't identify this particular incident as a non-conformity now does that mean that either it wasn't recorded or on the
02:16:26 that either it wasn't recorded or on the sample the assessor didn't find it
02:16:30 um i do i don't i don't know um the
02:16:35 um the we would expect the i i think if it had been found it would have been reported yes but that's yes
02:16:44 yes and i would expect you've mentioned sanctions as part of the way in which you incentivize bodies to
02:16:54 bodies to uh
02:16:55 uh deal
02:16:56 deal within the honor system as the chairs put it those sanctions would include for example withdrawing or suspending accreditation wouldn't they yes they would and they're the primary
02:17:08 yes they would and they're the primary sanctions aren't they there might be increased surveillance or unannounced visits as well is that right yes instead of
02:17:18 withdrawal or suspension is of accreditation the body can carry on doing work it just won't be able to put the ucas logo on it is that right they can carry on working as as long as there
02:17:30 can carry on working as as long as there isn't a regulatory requirement for them to be accredited to do that yes yeah and in those circumstances ucas will immediately revise the schedules of accreditation to remove anything that they're not accredited to
02:17:42 anything that they're not accredited to do anymore is that right yeah and they'll be published on the ucas website yes
02:17:46 yes and is it correct that organizations under sanctions actually have their details published on the ucas website there is a list of organizations yes that
02:17:56 that that list is only for the preceding few months is that right that's correct um why would you cast only publish the details of those organizations for a limited number of months
02:18:09 because the um
02:18:12 um the all of the schedules scopes of accreditation are published on our website and and that is a live you can look at any top any one time and that should be the the current situation um
02:18:24 should be the the current situation um sometimes it might take a day or two to update it but um so
02:18:29 so once a sanction has passed then the organizations had their accreditation reinstated we can so there isn't a history recorded currently on our on our website right
02:18:40 currently on our on our website right so if i were wanting to find out historically if a body
02:18:46 if a body had been accredited in the past that would be very difficult for me to find out
02:18:49 out with the website information as it currently stands yes but you can ask we you can ask ucas and we will provide the information i see does ucas publish details as to why sanctions were imposed
02:19:01 details as to why sanctions were imposed no we don't why is that because of the confidentiality um
02:19:08 um arrangements that we have with organizations which it comes from a requirement in 17011 but we will publish that the organization has had their accreditation suspended or
02:19:20 their accreditation suspended or withdrawn
02:19:21 withdrawn is it up to the sanctioned body to tell customers why it was sanctioned or not at all
02:19:27 at all they work they do have to inform customers who any customers where that work is impacted by the sanction and does you enforce that yes we do
02:19:41 so it's half past four i have one more topic to cover which i think i could probably do in ten minutes uh if i may or we could pause there
02:19:52 or we could pause there yes well uh afraid we're going to have to ask because his terms have come back on we would say anyway won't we yes that's quite right is the topic very closely related to this it does follow on i will try and take it very quickly
02:20:04 on i will try and take it very quickly if you'll indulge you mind going on for another it's fine few minutes it's fine no problem i want to talk specifically about the case of fraud and
02:20:13 and um
02:20:18 can we go to the policy document acc 1000 which we've mentioned earlier
02:20:26 that is at ucas2010905
02:20:34 this is the 2012 version can we go to page 19.
02:20:44 at paragraph 7.2 point 11 there's a provision that first it says there are situations where specific sanctions are required to be
02:20:55 specific sanctions are required to be imposed by ucas and down to the first bullet point it says where there is proven evidence of fraudulent behavior or the cab intentionally provides false information
02:21:07 intentionally provides false information or the cab deliberately violates accreditation rules ucas shall initiate its process for withdrawal of accreditation
02:21:16 now as to what might constitute fraudulent behaviour would i be right to say it would include falsification of test data or records
02:21:27 or records or deliberately withholding or concealing information would that be right that's correct would it include concealing records of non-conforming work
02:21:37 work yes it would and
02:21:39 and if if they were yes if it were of a serious degree yes
02:21:45 you mentioned confidentiality and i just want to bring confidentiality into this
02:21:51 into this um
02:21:53 um input with particular reference to a document that's ucas2010846
02:22:06 this uh this is a set of minutes from a scitak construction industry technical advisory committee meeting and it was held some years ago in april 2003
02:22:17 held some years ago in april 2003 on page 3 item 3.9 we can see there was a discussion about whether there should be an obligation for ucas to breach confidentiality
02:22:28 confidentiality and bring instances or fraud or safety breaches into the public domain if they are uncovered during assessment we can see that there was a debate
02:22:40 we can see that there was a debate and mr tolbert reiterated that there is no obligation for ucas to breach assessment confidentiality and bring incidences of fraud or safety breaches into the public domain ucas are
02:22:54 breaches into the public domain ucas are bound by a confidentiality agreement with each and every customer and you can see that was debated at some length but at the end no further action was considered possible
02:23:05 possible now at that time certainly ucas's position seems to have been that even in matters of fraud or safety breaches ucas wouldn't bring that information into the public domain
02:23:16 that information into the public domain is that right that that's what that indicates here yes um was
02:23:23 um was do you understand that to be the position
02:23:26 position uh now
02:23:28 um i i don't understand that to be the position now um although i think there is a
02:23:35 is a there are a number of sort of steps um in in that process if we were to become aware of instances of fraud and safety breaches i think
02:23:46 safety breaches i think we would
02:23:48 we would go through a process to determine who needs to know for example it might be a regulator
02:23:54 regulator in the first instance it will also depend on what the organization themselves has done to notify
02:24:01 to notify affected parties but in circumstances where there isn't a particular regulator and the organization has not taken any steps would yukas take any steps to
02:24:12 steps would yukas take any steps to bring matters of fraud or public safety into the public domain um
02:24:19 um yes i think we would we we would consider that um i just want to clarify i suppose what we mean by public domain because and i think that would in terms of um
02:24:29 of um the scope of the confidentiality agreements that we have with our customers there is also provision for us to disclose um in certain circumstances um so i think that that's
02:24:42 um so i think that that's we we would take a view on what would be appropriate right and that might not be automatically say publishing that on our website
02:24:50 website might not be it might not be it might not be public but do i take from that it might be um i don't believe we have we have we have done that
02:24:59 done that um
02:25:02 i think we would certainly consider whether that was that was appropriate it would not be our intent to withhold information that that put
02:25:13 anyone at significant risk would you say that ucas's current contracts with confidentiality clauses and so forth would a matter of serious fraud or
02:25:26 would a matter of serious fraud or breach of safety would that be out with the confidentiality that ucas agrees with its body um i think there is provision in the
02:25:37 um i think there is provision in the agreement for us to take action very well um so those are my questions for the witness today i will have to ask her to come back on monday though yes of course
02:25:49 come back on monday though yes of course um if we break are you coming back to this point about um notifying the public of those are my questions on notification right well then i'm just going to ask one has anyone
02:26:01 going to ask one has anyone taken any steps to give yourself room in your contract terms to publish fraud or safety breaches if you consider it appropriate to do so
02:26:14 yes because we have in some cases we have
02:26:17 have information sharing agreements with regulators where we can pass information directly to the regulator as a matter of course
02:26:24 course we have a specific arrangement and the confidentiality arrangements are waived by the by the body in those circumstances we also have a policy in the healthcare area relating to
02:26:36 in the healthcare area relating to patient safety where we'll take action um if under those i mean i ask because it strikes me that the solution to the confidentiality problem is to change the terms of the agreements
02:26:48 is to change the terms of the agreements at least for the future yes or make specific arrangements like the the examples that we have we have you know quite a number of examples where we will give information directly
02:26:59 where we will give information directly to a regulator or to another competent organization right thank you very much well i'm uh we're going to break there for the day i'm sorry we've got to ask you to come back again on monday but i suspect you were prepared for that
02:27:11 suspect you were prepared for that so we'll look forward to seeing you again at 10 o'clock on monday morning and in the meantime please take care not to discuss your evidence or anything relating to it with anyone else okay
02:27:22 relating to it with anyone else okay thank you thank you thank you very much we'd like to go to the ocean please
02:27:28 [Music]
02:27:36 thank you besides 10 o'clock on monday thank you sir thank you