Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Phase 2 Opening Statements - Wednesday 29th January (afternoon session)
00:00:09 good afternoon the enquiry is about to resume therefore please can you take your seats and remain silent just to remind you that no photographs are
00:00:21 remind you that no photographs are allowed to be taken in the hearing room and your phones should be switched to silent if you have any questions or require any help please approach one of
00:00:32 require any help please approach one of the ushers also may we remind you that no eating is allowed in the hearing room thank you
00:01:30 [Music]
00:01:36 mr. Warshaw again to make a statement on behalf of the London Fire Brigade yes good afternoon sir good afternoon madam so can I make it clear from the outset of this relatively brief statement of
00:01:50 of this relatively brief statement of the London Fire Brigade that as phase two of the inquiry gets underway the LFP remains focused on delivering all necessary positive changes to
00:02:03 necessary positive changes to operational procedures and training which reflect the lessons learned from the tragic events of the 14th of June 2017 I will come back to that in just a
00:02:16 2017 I will come back to that in just a little bit more detail in a moment of course now is not the time for submissions on the content of your very thorough phase 1 report there'll be ample opportunity for that in module 5
00:02:30 ample opportunity for that in module 5 when the LF B's operational response to the fire is to be revisited along with broader including national issues as I understand it it is enough to say for
00:02:41 understand it it is enough to say for the present that the LF B's energies are concentrated on the recommendations which we you made in that phase 1 report
00:02:52 which we you made in that phase 1 report with which are welcomed by the brigade and on seeking to implement them and with that in mind the issues in evidence which are to be examined in module 1 and
00:03:05 which are to be examined in module 1 and the modules which immediately follow it are of crucial importance to the LF B's learning process so that positive changes may be fully informed by a clear
00:03:19 changes may be fully informed by a clear understanding of how the condition of Grenville Tower facilitated the development of the fire so I hope that you will bear with me while I reiterate
00:03:30 you will bear with me while I reiterate very briefly a small but crucial point in the brigades opening and closing statements for phase 1 because they're relevant to module 1 of faith to that
00:03:43 relevant to module 1 of faith to that point insofar as they touched upon the fire safety requirements of the building regulations which require that residential high-rise buildings should be designed built and
00:03:55 buildings should be designed built and maintained crucially maintained to support the stay-put principle and of course that is and was at the time at
00:04:07 course that is and was at the time at the Grenville tower fire central to the issues of fire safety which arise in the course of construction or refurbishment of such buildings I do so have to
00:04:18 of such buildings I do so have to revisit this in case there is still a degree of misunderstanding in the public arena as we think there is about the origins and purpose of the stay-put
00:04:30 origins and purpose of the stay-put principle as certain of the inquiries experts have pointed out stay put is not a principle or policy which was invented
00:04:42 a principle or policy which was invented by fire and rescue services far from it it is a principle of building design and construction which is bolstered by the requirements of the building regulations
00:04:55 requirements of the building regulations as dr. Lane emphasized during her evidence in phase one and I quote the fire protection measures must be constructed and then maintained to
00:05:09 constructed and then maintained to ensure that they are fit for purpose in the event of fire the stay-put strategy is provided through design construction and ongoing maintenance all building
00:05:24 and ongoing maintenance all building occupants including the fire brigade rely on it in the event of a fire it is the single the single safety condition
00:05:35 the single the single safety condition provided for in the design of high-rise residential buildings in England the statutory guidance makes no provision within the building for anything other
00:05:46 within the building for anything other than a stay put strategy close quote now sir that is obviously a statement of incontrovertible fact which should in
00:06:00 incontrovertible fact which should in our submission form the backdrop to the consideration of evidence in module 1 and beyond because of course whether we like it or not the stay-put principle is
00:06:13 like it or not the stay-put principle is still the single safety provision for buildings of this kind for the purposes of fire of course within the meaning given to it to it by dr. Lane obviously
00:06:25 given to it to it by dr. Lane obviously the state of principle is dependent upon multiple layers of fire safety measures to support it and in those circumstances the lfb submits that the public and
00:06:38 the lfb submits that the public and emergency services should be entitled to have faith in the efficacy of such a fundamental fire safety requirement and at the very least that those who engage
00:06:52 at the very least that those who engage in major refurbishments do not do so in a way which radically undermines or even eradicate s-- as appears to have occurred at Grenville tower tragically
00:07:05 occurred at Grenville tower tragically that single fire safety condition phase 1 of the inquiry was a robust and thorough examination of the operational
00:07:16 thorough examination of the operational response to the fire by the fire service and its partner services and the lfb trusts indeed it knows sir having heard mr. millets opening that the inquiry and
00:07:29 mr. millets opening that the inquiry and its experts will imply well apply the same meticulous scrutiny to the questions how and why Grenville tower came to fall so far short of these basic
00:07:42 came to fall so far short of these basic regulatory requirements that it was the scene of the worst and most devastating fire in residential premises since the second world war a full understanding of
00:07:55 second world war a full understanding of how and why why the fire took hold and developed which would be looked at I know in module 2 and beyond but it's relevant to module 1 how it developed
00:08:07 relevant to module 1 how it developed with such rapidity and to such an extent is also of paramount significance to fire and rescue services nationally that is if the advancement of policy and
00:08:20 is if the advancement of policy and training and learning is to be achieved to maximum effect in the interests of Public Safety and that of firefighters who must be deployed into buildings to
00:08:31 who must be deployed into buildings to carry out fire and rescue duties now sir although not strictly personal to module 1 this is an appropriate moment if you wouldn't mind for me to gently remind
00:08:44 wouldn't mind for me to gently remind you and the entire regime that the brigade is strongly of the view that a detailed smoke heat and fire modeling project will provide essential
00:08:57 project will provide essential information from which Fire and Rescue Services can plan effectively for similar incidents in the future such a modeling exercise will be a value of invaluable in assessing the potential
00:09:10 invaluable in assessing the potential impact which the manner in which fire and smoke and heat behave during the Grenville tower of fire had on the viability of rescue and evacuation of
00:09:21 viability of rescue and evacuation of residents at different times of the night important information of that kind may be extrapolated to predict the behavior of fire and smoke in any future
00:09:34 behavior of fire and smoke in any future incidents of a similar kind and be used by fire and rescue services to assist in the continuous review of policies and procedures which are underway as we
00:09:47 procedures which are underway as we speak and this is of particular importance given the statutory and moral obligations which the fire which Fire and Rescue Services have to the safety
00:09:59 and Rescue Services have to the safety of firefighters who were deployed into buildings in a fire situation that wasn't directly within scope in the first phase of phase of this inquiry well it's particularly relevant to
00:10:10 well it's particularly relevant to buildings which are fundamentally unsafe by reason of the failure of multiple levels of fire safety measures which they are supposed to be designed to provide and in that regard sir the
00:10:24 to provide and in that regard sir the brigade is appreciative of the fact that your phase one report recognizes the bravery and selflessness of firefighters who were deployed in the Grenville tower
00:10:35 who were deployed in the Grenville tower on the night of the fire in some cases without firefighting equipment we've created very significant risks to their safety now Fire and
00:10:48 risks to their safety now Fire and Rescue Services must obviously assess and reduce as far as is reasonably practicable the risks of both firefighters and members of the public
00:10:59 firefighters and members of the public through the development of training and policy and this is one of the key reasons why the detailed analysis of the range of issues to be addressed in module 1 and beyond is of such crucial
00:11:13 module 1 and beyond is of such crucial significance to fire service learning now while these opening submissions must be confined of course to matters under consideration module 1 it's important
00:11:24 consideration module 1 it's important just for a moment if I may to emphasize the tireless work which the lfb continues to undertake to ensure now
00:11:35 continues to undertake to ensure now that Londoners are kept safe in the event of fire that wide-ranging work which commenced immediately after the Granville town fire has been well
00:11:47 Granville town fire has been well documented in statements to this inquiry and in publicly available material provided to stakeholders such as the Greater London Authority closely azon
00:12:00 Greater London Authority closely azon with central government has also been at the heart of the LF P's programme with a substantial investment in terms of Finance time fire service personnel to
00:12:14 Finance time fire service personnel to ensure that learning from the ground full tower fire is progressed with expedition not least of the LF P's priorities as I have said it's the
00:12:25 priorities as I have said it's the urgent work to address your recommendations from the phase one report
00:12:30 report which as I have also said is or acknowledged from welcomed by the brigade the phase one report represented a thorough and detailed analysis of the
00:12:44 a thorough and detailed analysis of the vast amount of evidence produced during phase one and sir as you know much of that evidence was derived from the lfb itself not only in the evidence provided
00:12:56 itself not only in the evidence provided by brigade staff at the live hearings but also in the painstaking operational response reports which were compiled by the rfp over many months beginning
00:13:07 the rfp over many months beginning immediately after the fire as I say the contents of which I think it's fair to say formed a fair amount of the factual material in the phase one report
00:13:20 material in the phase one report consequently the brigade hopes that it has provided real and meaningful assistance to the inquiry both through the preparation of those reports and by
00:13:32 the preparation of those reports and by facilitating the complex process of ensuring the attendance at the inquiry of over 80 firefighters we will all spoke freely and we suggest candidly and
00:13:47 spoke freely and we suggest candidly and openly about their experiences and other fire brigade staff who gave oral evidence drawn from written statements made by many hundreds of firefighters
00:13:58 made by many hundreds of firefighters who attended on the night so the matters to be addressed in module 1 represent the beginning of the process of learning how it was that a building that was
00:14:11 how it was that a building that was designed and built to keep residents safe appears to have promoted the development of a devastating fire with such catastrophic consequences the
00:14:24 such catastrophic consequences the brigade this is very important that I make this point the brigade has listened very hard to the findings of the phase 1 report and it is committed to working
00:14:37 report and it is committed to working with the Granville community to do everything possible to prevent such a tragedy ever happening again and obviously it goes without
00:14:48 again and obviously it goes without saying that the brigade will continue to assist you and your team in the coming months in every way it can and finally and here I make no apology for again
00:15:01 and here I make no apology for again repeating what we said in the brigades opening and closing statements of the phase one the LF be the London Fire Brigade and all of those who work within
00:15:13 Brigade and all of those who work within it will never forget the appalling impact which the night of the 14th of June 2017 had and continues to have on the bereaved survivors and residents of
00:15:27 the bereaved survivors and residents of Granville Tower and the surrounding area and here we join with Miss studs assertion on behalf of the mayor of London in commending the inquiry for
00:15:41 London in commending the inquiry for ensuring that they have been and will continue to be central to the inquiry process to ensure that meaningful lessons will be learned and acted upon
00:15:54 lessons will be learned and acted upon it's their added thing I could open it up it's very helpful thank you very much
00:16:03 now mr. C would you are going to make an opening statement on behalf of the Fire Brigades Union I think
00:16:25 yes madam I'm instructed by Thompson sisters and I represent the fire brigade Union and the firefighters control staff and fire safety officers whom it
00:16:37 and fire safety officers whom it represents our written opening submissions have been disclosed to all corps participants and trusting you and your colleagues have read them I won't I won't read them out today but instead
00:16:49 I won't read them out today but instead focus on a few key issues facing the inquiry the FPU remains humbled by the suffering of the deceased and the bereaved survivors and relatives of the
00:17:00 bereaved survivors and relatives of the deceased as a result of the ground for tower disaster and committed to a full and open inquiry about the the panel two
00:17:11 and open inquiry about the the panel two Assessors remain for Phase two and after a choice Redfield stepped down and one panel member after the resignation of their Benicia mayor and
00:17:23 resignation of their Benicia mayor and professor Hamdi the the FPU is is aware in light of all the disclosure and the witness statements of the the heavy
00:17:34 witness statements of the the heavy burden of evidence weighing and decision-making that faces the inquiry in Phase two and we support the application made by Michael Mansfield QC for your support in encouraging the
00:17:47 for your support in encouraging the speedy appointment of another panel member to serve with Turia mr. Furman in this connection the FPU invites you to reconsider recommending the employer
00:17:59 reconsider recommending the employer appointment of an independent environmental health practitioner to serve either as a panel member or as an additional assessor and independent and well respected expert in the fields of
00:18:11 well respected expert in the fields of environmental health social housing and the housing health of safety rating system under the Housing Act Part one of the Housing Act 2004 would complement the areas of expertise and knowledge of
00:18:22 the areas of expertise and knowledge of yourself mr. staff and professor nettinger
00:18:28 nettinger Montgomery you may wish to revisit paragraph three of the FB use application of the 28th of November 17 and paragraph 9 of the written submissions that we lodged in support of
00:18:39 submissions that we lodged in support of that same date in support of that application for the appointment of an independent environmental health practitioner such a an individual would
00:18:52 practitioner such a an individual would have experience throughout his or her working life of going into high-rise blocks and listening to the difficulties
00:19:03 blocks and listening to the difficulties of those who live in high-rise blocks and writing reports to try and improve the conditions of people living in high-rise blocks they have a profound a develop a profound understanding of the
00:19:15 develop a profound understanding of the people who live in high-rise blocks and the problems that they face about interim recommendations the FPU supports and stud QC submission on behalf of the mayor to consider these at each module
00:19:28 mayor to consider these at each module of phase 2 and if you can assure the chairman that we are doing what we can to progress the recommendations that
00:19:41 to progress the recommendations that you've made I should say before passing on that we agree with all of the mayors and the submissions made on behalf of
00:19:53 and the submissions made on behalf of the mayor about the evidence in in module 1 in in phase 1 several firefighters and controller and staff who are FBG members were in the witness
00:20:04 who are FBG members were in the witness box for more than a day some for two to three days the FPU hopes the inquiry team will likewise probe witnesses thoroughly in module 1 on how a ground
00:20:15 thoroughly in module 1 on how a ground fault hour came to be coated in a combustible rainscreen cladding system was destroyed compartment ation in the building both between the flats and the exterior facade and across the facade and over the crown on the knowledge and
00:20:29 and over the crown on the knowledge and training and experience of the professionals and supervisors engaged on this on the project you'll recall of course the fire were asked about their knowledge and we expect the same to be put to the
00:20:40 expect the same to be put to the witnesses in module 1 their attitudes to fire safety to Building Control and the London Fire Brigade and how far safety came to be afforded such a low priority
00:20:51 came to be afforded such a low priority how the use of this sort of cladding became so widespread in England moving on to the blame game the FBO welcomes
00:21:02 on to the blame game the FBO welcomes mr. Miller's exhortation to candor and the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea submissions we hope others will will do likewise as matters stand
00:21:13 will do likewise as matters stand however and consistently with their original position statements their opening written and those who have made them oral submissions of the companies and organizations involved in the
00:21:24 and organizations involved in the refurbishment project indicate that the key players in the refurbishment are keen to ring-fence their limited involvement in the project and thereby
00:21:35 involvement in the project and thereby whether openly or implicitly to point the finger of blame away from themselves there's a circle of corporate finger pointing it seems that no one organization can be singled out there is
00:21:47 organization can be singled out there is yet no and may never be one bad apple viewed with the large and widespread number of properties now blighted with grim full-time cladding that indicates
00:21:58 grim full-time cladding that indicates the problem is systemic and the whole system must be challenged it also explains why so many victims feel so angry we endorsed mr. Maxwell Scott's submission that this is a national
00:22:09 submission that this is a national problem and requires a national solution
00:22:14 [Music] those submissions that I referred to if the core participants also show that there was some apparent uncertainty and confusion about the building regulations the guidance and the approved documents
00:22:26 the guidance and the approved documents and even the meaning of the BBA certificates there was confusion of roles and responsibilities within the project with professionals such as studio Ian X over achieving only a limited role and seemingly no one taking
00:22:38 limited role and seemingly no one taking ownership of the design of the cladding system included in the windows and the choice of materials so we've heard for example mr. Spofford highlighting this morning the difference
00:22:51 highlighting this morning the difference in understanding between the t mo and RT Lea of their roles under the under the contract and under the CDM regulations where whether our TVA was a project
00:23:04 where whether our TVA was a project manager or or just a coordinator employees agents and quantity surveyor for example whether Studio E or RT Lea were appointed as lead consultant and
00:23:17 were appointed as lead consultant and for example the TMS decision not to employ a client design advisor this is contentious as appears from mr. Jarrett's oral opening submissions before lunch the main driver of the
00:23:30 before lunch the main driver of the project was value for money ahead of quality and programming that appears clear from the evidence that's been disclosed to the core participants the enforcement measures were inadequate as
00:23:42 enforcement measures were inadequate as has been admitted by the Royal Borough of Kensington Chelsea in respect to building control and there was a minimum compliance culture in relation to building works and fire safety of waiting to be told what to do by
00:23:54 waiting to be told what to do by regulators rather than taking responsibility for building to correct standards aiming at minimum compliance instead of ensuring safety just not to dwell on this minimum compliance culture
00:24:07 dwell on this minimum compliance culture for a moment it's already exemplified to this inquiry so a few examples studio ease assertion made by mr. pop a QC on
00:24:18 ease assertion made by mr. pop a QC on on the first day of this module it's at page 53 of the transcript that Ryden tended not to use architects to the extent that other contractors might and
00:24:29 extent that other contractors might and it visits their role as being more responsive x over x overs assertion that it was more or less left out of any communications or informational details
00:24:40 communications or informational details of the proposed cladding system made by mr. douglas QC on on the second day and by mr. Velas internal report for our colleague i think that's how you
00:24:52 colleague i think that's how you pronounce it whirly birdy on on the 6th of July 11 an internal report cited by mr. Tavernier QC for item under the heading European
00:25:03 QC for item under the heading European fire regulation he noted Rena bumpy and Cosette form was classified euro classy but a B class is the minimum required for facade in Europe he went on for the moment even if we know that PE material
00:25:15 moment even if we know that PE material in cassette has a bad behavior exposed to fire we can still work with national regulations who were not as restrictive and that you may find sir is clear
00:25:27 and that you may find sir is clear indication that at least some companies appear to have gamed the system to have taken shortcuts with fire safety and that must never happen again
00:25:39 Dame Judith Hackett reported interim report in December 17 and followed up with her final report in May of 18 and all of this is foreshadowed by her
00:25:51 all of this is foreshadowed by her reporting in her interim report of December 17 Dame Judith Hackett said of the grave of Granville town fire this tragic incident should not have happened in our country the 21st century or sure
00:26:03 in our country the 21st century or sure we all echo echo there and her review would provide useful background for this inquiry and so I hope you'll forgive me if I just remind the inquiry of what she
00:26:15 if I just remind the inquiry of what she said in this context insofar as it's relevant to module 1 she described how the regulatory system covering high-rise and complex buildings was not fit for purpose leaving room for those who want
00:26:27 purpose leaving room for those who want to take shortcuts to do so that's page 5 in Para 1.6 of her interim report amongst her many findings to support that central conclusion she found
00:26:38 that central conclusion she found enforcement and sanctioned measures of poor and do not provide adequate means of compliance assurance deterrence or address for non-compliance its paragraph 1.2 for among her key recommendations
00:26:51 1.2 for among her key recommendations was there is a need for stronger and more effective enforcement within the system but this requires the necessary resources to be available and demonstrably independent those charged
00:27:03 demonstrably independent those charged with enforcing must have appropriate enforcement powers the FPU agrees dame hanket's analysis and contends the lack of stronger and more effective enforcement played a key causal role in the Grenville tower
00:27:15 causal role in the Grenville tower disaster that raises the question for this inquiry we contend why was enforcement ineffective the FBI contends that this is Grenville tower
00:27:26 contends that this is Grenville tower tragedy is a paradigm example of deregulation not working the companies in the construction industry cannot be trusted to regulate themselves that over a decade of austerity cuts have reduced
00:27:39 a decade of austerity cuts have reduced the effectiveness of Building Control and of the fire safety department in her final Reporter of May 18 Dame Hackett noted far event since Greta for obviously they've been many more since
00:27:51 obviously they've been many more since Dame Hecate's final report but she noted the ones until then and and she said subsequent events have reinforced the findings of the interim report and
00:28:03 findings of the interim report and strengthened my conviction there is a need for a radical rethink of the whole system and how it works this is most definitely not just a question of the specification of cladding systems but of an industry that has not reflected and
00:28:15 an industry that has not reflected and learned for itself as page 5 of her final rule she listed the key issues underpinning the system failure and the reason I just summarized those below is because they reflect what I said earlier
00:28:28 because they reflect what I said earlier and you may find that it's almost a template for module 1 of this inquiry so the key issues underpinning the the
00:28:41 the key issues underpinning the the failure of the regulatory regime ignorance regulations and guidance weren't always read by those who need to and when they did do read them the guidance is misunderstood or misinterpreted indifference
00:28:53 misinterpreted indifference the primary motivation is to do things as quickly and cheaply as possible rather than to deliver quality homes which are safe for people to live in when concerns are raised by others involved in building work or by
00:29:04 involved in building work or by residents they are often ignored some of those undertaking building work failed to prioritize safety using the ambiguity of regulations and guidance to gain the system for thirdly lack of clarity on
00:29:17 system for thirdly lack of clarity on roles and responsibilities I quotin she says about it and inadequate regulatory oversight and enforcement tools so that's a major part of the reasons underlying the systemic failure
00:29:29 reasons underlying the systemic failure in dame Hecate's assessment is the absence of effective enforcement judging from the opening submissions of the court participants that inquiry Dame
00:29:40 the court participants that inquiry Dame Hackett could have been writing about this very refurbishment project the FB who hopes the inquiry will explore this minimum compliance culture or race to the bottom as she described it in a
00:29:52 the bottom as she described it in a report in the gramophone refurbishment project to discover whether the failure of the enforcement agencies particularly Building Control and the fire safety department played a causal role in the
00:30:03 department played a causal role in the tragedy at the risk of trespassing onto the ground reserved for module five but to explain the FB use interest in lot in module 1 the FB who contends that at the very time that their job was becoming
00:30:15 very time that their job was becoming much more complex with deregulation which facilitated a much more flexible approach to design and construction successive cuts over the last decade
00:30:27 successive cuts over the last decade have led to reduce staffing levels and enforcement budgets for building control and the fire safety department so it's a double whammy the job's getting more complicated the
00:30:40 the job's getting more complicated the staff is is being reduced and the funds per forcible also that deregulation has increased the workload of enforcers by making their jobs more complex this is a
00:30:52 making their jobs more complex this is a time when they're subject to cut staff shortages increase workers and I won't cite it because it hasn't been disclosed yet but but see for example the witness statement under unique ID our BK triple
00:31:06 statement under unique ID our BK triple zero three three nine three four the paragraphs 3 to 4 as Dame Judith Hackett says at paragraph 3 point 2 3 of her intern report having a performance based
00:31:18 intern report having a performance based system which relies on sophisticated judgments places increased reliance on the competence of those undertaking the design and construction of the buildings and the skill and rigor of the regular
00:31:29 and the skill and rigor of the regular as verifying the quality of the work that's done so the current regulator regime allows greater flexibility in design and construction but as the statistics show the enforcement
00:31:40 statistics show the enforcement authorities have denied a commensurate increase in resources to provide and trained enough building control officers to do the extra work involved the same applies to the fire safety department there was obviously ineffective
00:31:53 there was obviously ineffective enforcement of the building regulations in this refurbishment the FBO contends that poor enforcement encouraged the minimum compliance culture that I spoke of earlier which enabled the companies
00:32:04 of earlier which enabled the companies involved in the project to gain the system take short cuts and create this fire hazard the FBO containers the inquiry should explore whether deregulation and cuts to Building Control and the NFB particularly the
00:32:16 Control and the NFB particularly the fire safety department materially contributed to the failure of effective enforcement of the building regulations in the course of this refurbishment project listen thank you now mr.
00:32:37 project listen thank you now mr. Mansfield I said I'd hear you at this point are you ready
00:33:06 yes sir madam maybe thank you for the opportunity I'll be very brief but the timing of this application on behalf of
00:33:21 timing of this application on behalf of certain corporates in with regard to whether they will answer questions or have immunity both are linked in relation to those questions is highly
00:33:33 relation to those questions is highly reprehensible and highly questionable coming on the eve of evidence there's been plenty of time for this to have been considered as it does normally in
00:33:45 been considered as it does normally in inquiries and inquest with many weeks to go before you actually get to the evidence so what we have a major question over why it's been done today
00:33:57 question over why it's been done today because it has caused and I speak for Team two and team one on this issue it has caused immense anxiety distress and anger at a time which has come
00:34:12 anger at a time which has come throughout a much longer period of waiting after this disaster of waiting to get to the point of accountability as it were to be almost worte doors of the
00:34:24 it were to be almost worte doors of the court as far as that is concerned therefore I'm not this moment going to go into the substance of it all merely to ask for your indulgence in a couple
00:34:35 to ask for your indulgence in a couple of ways one of them is that we don't seek to delay this hearing or these hearings at all there is no desire and tireless support your desire to conclude
00:34:47 tireless support your desire to conclude these matters within a reasonable time frame however as you are aware team one and Team two comprise a very large number of BS ARS many of whom or some of
00:35:02 number of BS ARS many of whom or some of whom don't live in London some live abroad and getting them together they're not all here today getting them together so that they can be spoken to together
00:35:14 so that they can be spoken to together rather than in a piecemeal fashion over telephone calls and so on is a task we would not engage in if this was a minor matter you will appreciate of course that this decision will have
00:35:27 course that this decision will have far-reaching effects for the quality and nature of this whole inquiry so therefore explaining and what the repercussions are of the various options
00:35:40 repercussions are of the various options that are open to the families to as it were contribute to you and your panel members decision is something which is taken very responsibly now so far as
00:35:51 taken very responsibly now so far as that is concerned we've already begun the process however we're sitting tomorrow and we're not suggesting the application shouldn't be made tomorrow we would ask that they do make those who
00:36:03 we would ask that they do make those who want to make this and so that we can see whether the terms of what is said tomorrow by on their behalf measures with the written material we've already been provided with and then we can make
00:36:14 been provided with and then we can make sensible measures to advise those people we can't do it tomorrow afternoon unfortunately but the so you know the proposal is there's going to be an
00:36:25 proposal is there's going to be an attempt to as it will hire a public building in London not far from here but they will all gather those of us who represent the BSL so have talked about
00:36:36 represent the BSL so have talked about this it is possible to get the vast majority to one place at one time to be advised by all those who represent so it's done as you would wish it namely not staggered but that will take some
00:36:50 not staggered but that will take some time on Friday we would therefore come to the the ball point which is this would you be kind enough to allow us to make representations orally on Monday
00:37:02 make representations orally on Monday morning first thing before that we would endeavor to get written submissions to both of you so you see in advance roughly what we may want to say would be
00:37:13 roughly what we may want to say would be home yeah and it will should shorten matters I think it's shown actually over the openings it has made a difference to do it in writing first so we didn't ever
00:37:24 do it in writing first so we didn't ever to do that well I I can't commit those who are actually doing the writing but well before Monday morning so I pause in case somebody wants to
00:37:35 so I pause in case somebody wants to correct me no unless there's any matter that you would like to ask me that's I hope that's helpful well it's very helpful just wait I mean I I agree this application has come very late in the
00:37:47 application has come very late in the day and at a most inconvenient time yeah the program for module one I think has been out in the open for several weeks
00:37:58 been out in the open for several weeks and the arrangements to call witnesses starting on Monday has been established for a long time so it's very disappointing I might even use a stronger word that
00:38:11 I might even use a stronger word that the application is being made so close to the date for calling witnesses and I do fully understand that you need time to explain to your clients what is and
00:38:22 to explain to your clients what is and is not involved yes so I have a lot of sympathy with what you are asking for can I just ask you to pause there for a moment just to see if mr. millet who of
00:38:33 moment just to see if mr. millet who of course bears primary responsibility for organizing what we do next week wants to say anything about it because it will mean changing the arrangements we've
00:38:44 mean changing the arrangements we've already made for witnesses to attend on Monday hopefully only slightly but well the difficulty is that I shall have to hear submissions on on Monday yes I
00:38:55 hear submissions on on Monday yes I shall then have to consider what I've heard formulate my own decision if it's my decision that I should approach the attorney then that will take a little bit of time to organize and may disrupt
00:39:07 bit of time to organize and may disrupt further existing program that isn't that's not your fault and it's not I think any of us can do about that but I just think it would be helpful to give mr. millet a chance to see what to see
00:39:20 mr. millet a chance to see what to see when he's got any more to say mr. millet do you have any response mr. chairman no I don't other than to say that if mr. Mansfield could thinks on reflection that he needs the time over the weekend both to provide you and indeed my team
00:39:33 both to provide you and indeed my team with written submissions and properly to be able to advise his clients say that they fully understand the ramifications of what's involved and to make a considered decision
00:39:44 considered decision then that's most important yeah and and I am sure that we can make whatever adjustments to the timetable that we can on for Monday suitably in advance of
00:39:57 on for Monday suitably in advance of course you will understand mr. chairman that we have two witnesses currently slated for Monday but if we start a little bit later on Monday and there's a
00:40:08 little bit later on Monday and there's a small impact on the timetable if it's to hold up then that can be accommodated can I just say something else mr. Mansfield mentioned hiring a hole somewhere all I would do is extended the
00:40:21 somewhere all I would do is extended the invitation to him to come to talk to us after this to see whether this room might be available I speak without any instructions at all but it does seem to me to be inconvenient to the BSL is to have to
00:40:32 inconvenient to the BSL is to have to find somewhere else
00:40:35 thank you very much thank you well mr. Mansfield as I've already said I I do understand the difficulties you have explaining to your plans yeah of
00:40:47 have explaining to your plans yeah of course what this proposal involves and what he does not involve yeah so what I'm going to say is yes I'll hear the application tomorrow afternoon as I
00:40:58 application tomorrow afternoon as I indicated this morning as far as the applicants are concerned and then a journey to enable you to address me on
00:41:10 journey to enable you to address me on Monday morning in the light of whatever instructions you can then holding I thank you and if we take that first thing on Monday morning at 10 o'clock yes that will obviously disrupt monday's
00:41:25 yes that will obviously disrupt monday's proceedings to some extent but it probably won't last too long will it because there's only a certain amount that could be said
00:41:36 that could be said well I better not make any promises but i i i i think i think we can be succinctly don't wish to delay matters no no I I would have thought well a
00:41:48 no no I I would have thought well a couple of hours perhaps should be mentally put aside well don't worry about the witness arrangements for next week so that something will take care of
00:42:00 week so that something will take care of yeah but we'll hear you at 10 o'clock on Monday morning oh you're going to address me on behalf of team one and Team two as we call you is that right I
00:42:11 Team two as we call you is that right I think there is a consensus that I should I'm not doing the opening for me I make it clear tomorrow we know I noticed that I've been given the names of those yes concerned in a later module but the
00:42:24 concerned in a later module but the certainly I'm very happy unless somebody else wishes to do it to do it on Monday me all right well probably I can't help you any further at the moment guy no thank you well thank you very much no we
00:42:39 thank you well thank you very much no we have made again we've made extremely rapid progress I wonder if I could trouble miss bar wires to come up to the desk for a moment yeah would you just
00:42:51 desk for a moment yeah would you just well it's very hard to talk to you at such a long range I'm afraid and the
00:43:03 such a long range I'm afraid and the reason I asked you to come off is because we've now got to the end of the business that was scheduled for today yes but as we've just been discussing we've got additional business to fit in tomorrow afternoon at the end of a day
00:43:16 tomorrow afternoon at the end of a day in which by my reckoning we've got three and a half hours need statements scheduled and I was going to have the temerity to ask you whether you are
00:43:27 temerity to ask you whether you are ready to go this afternoon or would be if I were to adjourn for quarter an hour to give you time to collect yourself yes perhaps I say that I can make sure but I
00:43:38 perhaps I say that I can make sure but I don't want to put you under any pressure if you're I know you will have been expecting to address us tomorrow yes I was but it seems a shame that course to three-d-- yes and I totally understand that the only
00:43:49 and I totally understand that the only thing I would just like to check with my sisters is I know that some clients had planned to come tomorrow for our opening and that does give me a little difficulty to a question I'd be more
00:44:01 difficulty to a question I'd be more understand your time traveling I'd be more than welcome to oblige but I think there is just that issue that many well that's the very very proper consideration so I'm not going to put you under any pressure and indeed you
00:44:14 you under any pressure and indeed you might not want to say everything that you need to say today add a few things well look we arise for Court who know
00:44:25 well look we arise for Court who know yes
00:44:26 yes wilt it again at 3 o'clock at that stage you can tell me how you're placed and you can take instructions in the meantime and then we'll see where we go
00:44:37 meantime and then we'll see where we go nice although I'm anxious to use the time available I'm equally anxious not to put you in a difficult position I'm most grateful for that sir and and Justice 18 it on Monday when we when you
00:44:49 Justice 18 it on Monday when we when you hear the application we would probably make some very short observations but they would be brief all right we'll rise now and come back at 3 o clock
00:58:12 hi can I ask you to take your seats please and remain silent we are about to resume
00:59:38 and before we go any further can I just mention one thing in relation to this application that we were discussing just before the adjournment I thought we'd made it clear in the
00:59:49 I thought we'd made it clear in the letter that was sent to core participants I think this is this morning or maybe last night all core participants who want to say something about the application are entitled to do
01:00:02 about the application are entitled to do so but it would be very helpful if anyone who does have a position would give me a brief statement of what that position is as soon as it's able to do
01:00:14 position is as soon as it's able to do so it doesn't have to be at anything lengthy just give me an indication of where you stand it would also be very helpful if you want to invest me orally
01:00:26 helpful if you want to invest me orally address us orally on the application that you make that clear and give me a rough indication of how long you think you might require that purpose then we
01:00:37 you might require that purpose then we can plan the application miss burrows I'm sorry I put you on the spot earlier on so where do you believe I'm most grateful for the times and the position
01:00:49 grateful for the times and the position is that there are lots of haunts who are coming tomorrow especially I believe that's also true of of t2 as well so I'm afraid I personally would prefer not to for that reason but of course grateful
01:01:02 for that reason but of course grateful for the opportunity but I'm afraid I can't well I do understand and if people are coming tomorrow because they expect you to be on your feet then they mustn't be disappointed I'm grateful I hope they
01:01:13 be disappointed I'm grateful I hope they won't be alright well in that case we have reached the end of the program for today again we've done so rather more quickly than we thought was going to be
01:01:26 quickly than we thought was going to be the case but there it is we have to stop there and we'll resume tomorrow at 10 o'clock when we shall see you again miss Barlow nice grateful talk tomorrow
01:01:38 Barlow nice grateful talk tomorrow please