Procedural Hearing (11 December 2017 - Pt 2 of 2)

Full transcript

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00:05:29 now according to the brownies running order miss Munroe is mixed up good

00:05:45 order miss Munroe is mixed up good afternoon sir Allison Monroe I'm instructed by bernburg Pierce and also Dighton Pierce Glen and I should say at

00:05:58 Dighton Pierce Glen and I should say at the outset so that the submissions that were filed on behalf of bernburg peers are adopted and supported my writing

00:06:09 are adopted and supported my writing here screaming sir the matters that I proposed to deal with very much dovetail

00:06:20 proposed to deal with very much dovetail and overlap on the very comprehensive submissions that have already been made this morning by the advocates representing a number of core persist

00:06:33 representing a number of core persist participants who are the next of kin of deceased survivors and residents and it cuts across or they cut across rather those fundamental I say principles and

00:06:46 those fundamental I say principles and legal submissions that have been made in relation to article 2 to the question of appointing a panel and the structure of the inquiry and indeed disclosure so in

00:06:58 the inquiry and indeed disclosure so in addressing you I had to deal I hope concisely and comprehensively but concisely with four points article 14 the public sector equality Duty the

00:07:12 the public sector equality Duty the question of diversity and inclusion and finally the issue of venue sir I hope what I say is constructive and if that

00:07:23 what I say is constructive and if that certainly is the intention and the manner in which we make these submissions to you as a means of opening the dialogue again borrowing from what has been said already this morning the

00:07:35 has been said already this morning the opening the channels of dialogue and hopefully having positive constructive suggestions of moving forward but also highlighting and flagging up those issues which we say are

00:07:47 those issues which we say are particularly important and indeed central to the inquiry so I would also say that the matters that I am going to touch upon I hope are not regarded as

00:08:01 touch upon I hope are not regarded as soft or tangential we say these are central and they are founded in law and very established legal principles so in

00:08:16 very established legal principles so in respect to the brand filth fire we and when I say we I mean members of the public we are all living in an age of rolling news where we see events unfold

00:08:29 rolling news where we see events unfold in real time there is because we're so exposed to rolling news and events in real time there is perhaps the tendency

00:08:40 real time there is perhaps the tendency to for people to come desensitized or inert to what they are seeing that didn't happen with the Grenfell fire and that perhaps is illustrative of the nature the extent in the gravity of what

00:08:53 nature the extent in the gravity of what was unfolding before people's eyes this wasn't just a local tragedy this wasn't just national tragedy perhaps first and foremost this represents a number of

00:09:07 foremost this represents a number of personal tragedies for the individuals who are here today those who lost their loved ones those who survived those in the immediate vicinity of the area and grief isn't time limited we've spoken

00:09:20 grief isn't time limited we've spoken about delays a day but in fact anyone who has experienced grief will know that six months is actually a relatively short amount of time people deal with grief in different ways and different

00:09:32 grief in different ways and different the timescales for people are very different but that sir has an impact upon how people are engaging and how ready they feel to engage and what can

00:09:44 ready they feel to engage and what can be done by the process itself to enhance that engagement

00:09:52 the grenfell fire didn't happen in a vacuum and so we have to be alive to the realities of the situation the socio-economic and political realities of what we're dealing with and looking

00:10:04 of what we're dealing with and looking at what we're dealing with as I said a national ocol and personal tragedies that have national and worldwide ramifications those who are affected

00:10:17 ramifications those who are affected come from a diverse and it's a word I'll be using quite a lot a diverse social group a diverse group culturally

00:10:28 group a diverse group culturally racially ethnically by religion by occupation by financial background although predominantly is a working-class community there's a large

00:10:41 working-class community there's a large proportion of those within the community from immigrant backgrounds some long-standing some more recent that make up whilst it is in some respects very

00:10:53 up whilst it is in some respects very broad perhaps is a reason why that community is so nonetheless cohesive because what can be seen very very clearly both from the aftermath the

00:11:06 clearly both from the aftermath the immediate aftermath of the fire and in the preceding months is that this is a very strong very cohesive community with a clear sense of community and how they

00:11:19 a clear sense of community and how they are affected we also have to be very very much alive to the fact that this disaster happened as was already being

00:11:30 disaster happened as was already being said within a pocket of one of the richest boroughs in London London the richest city in the UK one of the richest cities in the world Europe and

00:11:42 richest cities in the world Europe and the world and that is a reality that cannot be ignored we welcome so what has been said by the inquiry team in terms of putting those

00:11:54 inquiry team in terms of putting those directly affected at the heart of this inquiry process but many still strongly feel that their voices are not being heard

00:12:05 heard indeed it is a real sense from many of those that we represent that in the past their voices have not been heard and perhaps if those voices had been heard

00:12:17 perhaps if those voices had been heard in the past we wouldn't be here today so how can the inquiry and the process itself ensure that those voices do not

00:12:29 itself ensure that those voices do not go unheard this time around as we have said in our submissions firstly looking at article 14 it's a prohibition on

00:12:42 at article 14 it's a prohibition on discrimination which requires that rights under article 2 that are engaged in relation to the inquiry must be equally available to all core

00:12:53 equally available to all core participants regardless of social status disability ethnic origin or age and I should say at this point pausing for a

00:13:04 should say at this point pausing for a moment when looking at the community I mentioned a number of different factors we need also to be very much conversant with the fact that we are looking at a

00:13:16 with the fact that we are looking at a community that has a number of people with disabilities there is a large proportion within the community of young people young parents with very young children we are also looking and this

00:13:30 children we are also looking and this very much comes into the second point about the public sector equality's duty we are also looking at a group of individuals who are actually suffering a

00:13:42 individuals who are actually suffering a disability and I say that because of the trauma that they have experienced as a direct consequence of the fire it was something that mr. Mansfield touched upon and perhaps it's not something that

00:13:55 upon and perhaps it's not something that has garnered a lot of traction at the moment but it will as I'm sure time progresses and as more comes to light that clearly there are a lot of people who are still suffering trauma as a

00:14:09 who are still suffering trauma as a result of what they saw what they experienced and what they their families experienced and it would be morally repugnant and indeed unlawful for the playing field of

00:14:23 indeed unlawful for the playing field of effectively not to be an a level playing field so that they all can participate and be engaged in a meaningful way

00:14:38 as I said so the question of diversity it's a it's a word that is used a lot

00:14:49 it's a it's a word that is used a lot not just in the legal context but outside of these walls within public bodies within other organizations and it elicits a number of responses sometimes

00:15:01 elicits a number of responses sometimes it can elicit the response of Izar being rolled boxes being ticked it's important moreover vital that when one considers

00:15:12 moreover vital that when one considers diversity it is seen as a central and important factor and we say it's central and important because it actually adds value to the inquiry it had value to the

00:15:26 value to the inquiry it had value to the decision-making process it had value to the actual legal process now again certainly we are not suggesting that the

00:15:39 certainly we are not suggesting that the inquiring the inquiry team have not been alive to these issues there have been a number I understand of consultations that have been carried out prior to the inquiries the official opening

00:15:51 inquiries the official opening however the attendance has not been at its optimum and perceptions are important and unfortunately those consultation meetings are not perceived

00:16:03 consultation meetings are not perceived as being particularly inclusive at this stage but that's not a situation that we say is there revocable it's one that has to be faced head-on and has to be

00:16:14 to be faced head-on and has to be addressed but it's one that can be rectified and it's crucial that those in the community feel invested in the process they feel that it

00:16:27 process they feel that it and it undermines the confidence if they're not invested in that process I know so that it is something as I said that the enquiry team are allowed to but

00:16:39 that the enquiry team are allowed to but it's important that it's it's not simply recognized but power is given to the words and intention there is a real

00:16:53 words and intention there is a real perception and a real sweetly held feeling amongst many of those that we represent that their effective participation in the in the inquiry

00:17:04 participation in the in the inquiry process has been compromised those at the heart of the disaster need to feel that they are being listened to as I say

00:17:15 that they are being listened to as I say but also they need to feel that they are not simply passive bystanders to the retelling of their own history and the facts of their own history

00:17:29 mr. Mansfield has already highlighted and drawn so your attention to the report by um dr. Stewart I would commend

00:17:40 report by um dr. Stewart I would commend that report to the inquiry team it is a concise but very in my submission trenchant piece of work it explains in

00:17:51 trenchant piece of work it explains in very clear terms why issues of diversity are so important in the context of a disaster

00:17:59 disaster they make parallels or other dr. Stewart makes parallels with other inquiries such as the Lawrence inquiry and how an awareness of diversity and inclusion was fundamental to enhancing public

00:18:11 fundamental to enhancing public confidence and community engagement and ultimately added value as I say to the inquiry and the decisions that were made in the reports that were filed so one

00:18:24 in the reports that were filed so one has an eye to that question of raising and enhancing public confidence and that very much as I said at the outset so it ties in with notions of the appointment

00:18:36 ties in with notions of the appointment of the panel and the structure and and breath of the inquiry they all feed into notions of community engagement and

00:18:47 into notions of community engagement and enhancing public confidence as dr. Stuart points out at paragraph five of her report the Grenville tower inquiry would do well to garner the confidence

00:19:00 would do well to garner the confidence of the local community to encourage their engagement and feelings of inclusion in the procedures in order to improve the investigation by learning the lessons on the importance of social

00:19:11 the lessons on the importance of social cultural diversity from the Stephen Lawrence inquiry and that perhaps encapsulates as I said the points that she makes in that report in terms of

00:19:24 she makes in that report in terms of community engagement as I said so the structure and having those who represent or reflect the community as parts a real part of the structure of the process

00:19:37 part of the structure of the process again will enhance that level of confidence and that's that feeling of engagement so I won't repeat them because they're there in the submissions that we drafted on behalf of bernburg

00:19:48 that we drafted on behalf of bernburg Pierce and I think they've already been alluded to this morning a number of authorities which deal with that question of putting the victims and next of kin at the center of matters but also

00:20:01 of kin at the center of matters but also this question of humanity dignity and respect and there are three small words but they have tremendous impact these

00:20:13 but they have tremendous impact these are individuals many of whom are sitting at the back of the room who asked for and it's not a big ask they asked for dignity humanity and respect in the way

00:20:26 dignity humanity and respect in the way that they are treated and the way in which they are provided with engagement and an opportunity to engage in this process now that involves not simply the

00:20:40 process now that involves not simply the legal and structural matters that we have dealt with but also looking at the individuals and putting in appropriate measures to ensure their well-being both physical emotional and psychological

00:20:53 physical emotional and psychological the inquiry should ensure that next-of-kin survivors and residents are afforded special consideration and care to avert to avoid being further

00:21:04 to avert to avoid being further traumatized by the process itself and that is something so that one has seen in a number of different inquiries and in quests where individuals say that the

00:21:16 in quests where individuals say that the actual legal process itself can be quite dehumanizing and traumatizing so that brings me then on to the question of

00:21:28 brings me then on to the question of venue I am obviously we are in this room it is stuffy perhaps to say the least it

00:21:40 it is stuffy perhaps to say the least it has become more and more so as the morning and the afternoon has gone on it is not perhaps the most ideal from the legal point of view but put the lawyers

00:21:52 legal point of view but put the lawyers to one side I make my submissions on the venue primarily in respect of those that we represent initially the the inquire

00:22:03 we represent initially the the inquire was of course a jury of the Kanak rooms and bernburg Pierce made represent representations in relation to that and why those provisions were inadequate and

00:22:14 why those provisions were inadequate and those representations still hold in regards to the new venue this venue I note from paragraph 62 of council statement that it is said why the venue

00:22:27 statement that it is said why the venue was chosen and I quote the venue has been selected because of its central location good transport links to the Latimer Road area and suitable disabled provisions it is large and well

00:22:39 provisions it is large and well provisioned enough for the operation of the inquiry and the accommodation of a reasonable number of those wishing to attend the hearings that may be true to

00:22:50 attend the hearings that may be true to an extent its central location one would say central primary to the lawyers and it won't even demarcation even further perhaps central to the bar and not

00:23:03 perhaps central to the bar and not necessarily central to a lot of the solicitor

00:23:05 solicitor says who represent those members of the those next kin residents and survivors in terms of its location in terms of the

00:23:17 in terms of its location in terms of the building itself we represent as a sedative I diverse group of people many young parents those with young children those with disabilities traveling to and

00:23:32 those with disabilities traveling to and from if they want to fully engage and be physically here has a cost a financial cost central London lunchtime provisions for food in terms

00:23:47 lunchtime provisions for food in terms of the engagement with the legal teams conference rooms facilities for that ensuring that those who come can participate because of them they may

00:23:59 participate because of them they may need interpreters they may need other specific needs to that individual those are matters that are important but overriding all of that many of those

00:24:12 overriding all of that many of those that we represent say that the choice of venue and perhaps had there been a greater level of discussion and engagement with the community may have resulted in a different choice they have

00:24:24 resulted in a different choice they have been looking themselves at alternatives in the locality of them the area at the moment amongst those that have been

00:24:36 moment amongst those that have been identified is a local college as an alternative venue it would need to be kitted out effectively in terms of provisions to make it the home of the

00:24:48 provisions to make it the home of the inquiry but there is time to do that to be able to make available enough room for long enough so that could that be a difficulty that may be difficulty but

00:25:00 difficulty that may be difficulty but again it is not insurmountable thing as as has already been mentioned there are many of us here who have been involved in similar certainly out of London in my

00:25:12 in similar certainly out of London in my case long-running inquest in which the question of venue was something that had to be revisited and was overcome there is time to do

00:25:25 and was overcome there is time to do that and certainly what we would ask at this stage is that more that that dialog is opened and and there are options that need to be looked at whether they are viable so for the reasons you've

00:25:36 viable so for the reasons you've mentioned you mentioned the college is that Kensington and Chelsea College yes yes thank you so those are the kind of things that would need to be looked at

00:25:48 things that would need to be looked at the viability in terms of long long term because clearly we are looking at well into the future in terms of how long this inquiry will run and to its

00:26:00 this inquiry will run and to its conclusion but those are not insurmountable and and we have time so to do that and it's something that very much has exercised those within the community the question of venue and

00:26:12 community the question of venue and certainly they would not want it to be seen as an add-on as a as I said a tangental or a side issue compared to the very very important legal matters

00:26:23 the very very important legal matters that you have heard about this morning and we'll hear about further in due course because it affects again going back to the question of participation and engagement and

00:26:34 participation and engagement and confidence if one cannot physically get to the inquiry or once one is there you can't physically participate because of a lack of services or a lack of room or

00:26:46 a lack of services or a lack of room or just financially the prospect of bringing a small child having to find food for that child these are practical matters which I know others will address

00:26:57 matters which I know others will address you on but they feed into the whole question of venue so sir we would certainly say the times now the opportunity is here for us to look at this afresh there is one caveat in

00:27:10 this afresh there is one caveat in relation to venue that I know that some of the residents survivors next of kin are concerned about another council

00:27:21 are concerned about another council building being used but I say that as a caveat but the overall position is that the the venue they say should be one Polly to allow better access for individual members of the public as well

00:27:34 individual members of the public as well as those we represent so I think in fact I covered those four matters keeping in the trend of this morning yes you've

00:27:45 the trend of this morning yes you've done very well thank you very much yes well thank you very much for your submissions now mr. Steen I think you

00:27:56 submissions now mr. Steen I think you are due to speak next

00:28:11 so working with my junior Marc Henderson and the solicitor's team from how encode we take a firmly pro-family Pro and Pro

00:28:23 we take a firmly pro-family Pro and Pro community core participant stance we will remind and emphasize this inquiry we're required that the reason why the core participants we represent have been

00:28:36 core participants we represent have been granted that status within the inquiries Act 2005 is that the 65 that we represent are before this inquiry because they have lost loved ones they

00:28:49 because they have lost loved ones they have been injured they have been poisoned by cyanide they have been taken to Hell itself this means and the driver therefore for

00:29:01 this means and the driver therefore for our submissions is that we ask this inquiry the simple question of when will it start when will the truth come out when can we start seeing the defense's

00:29:14 when can we start seeing the defense's and potential excuses which will be raised by companies and institutions at fault for the purposes of these submissions we will refer to our written

00:29:26 submissions we will refer to our written submissions and follow the same order may I deal first of all therefore with statement taking from core participants and the giving evidence before this

00:29:38 and the giving evidence before this inquiry set out at pages 2 to 4 we recognize that a real priority for this inquiry relates to the statement taking from core participants and indeed a

00:29:51 from core participants and indeed a question that you need an answer to which is when can that be completed it is obvious to us that this is a major part of the process of getting this inquiry underway answering therefore the

00:30:06 inquiry underway answering therefore the question of when the inquiry will start and we know also that the inquiry needs to have these statements so that decisions can be made as to the measures

00:30:17 decisions can be made as to the measures that are going to be required in order for evidence to be given these answers to those questions are of real importance to the inquiry and they

00:30:28 real importance to the inquiry and they affect the basic planning of the inquiry itself the length of evidence the practical steps and technical needs that will be required from the giving of and

00:30:39 will be required from the giving of and the receipt of this evidence equally we understand the questions asked in the draft guidance provided by counsel to the inquiry though lengthy are at least

00:30:50 the inquiry though lengthy are at least in part designed to provide answers for the experts who are considering the various parts of this disaster those expert need answers as far as possible

00:31:02 expert need answers as far as possible moment by moment as to the spread of the fire the so-called far safety advice and the way that the emergency services acted how Inc oh my instructing

00:31:15 acted how Inc oh my instructing solicitors have some very real and recent experience in the statement taking from traumatized individuals and we know that sometimes it can be a relatively straightforward task but

00:31:27 relatively straightforward task but other times sir the grief and terror intrude so much that it can become a longer process as has just been mentioned people react different ways

00:31:38 mentioned people react different ways and there is no right or wrong way equally we have the very real practical problems of dealing with so many people still trying to bring a semblance of

00:31:50 still trying to bring a semblance of order to their lives the answer that we have and I hope helpful is that we are starting the process of statement taking immediately and we will not wait until

00:32:02 immediately and we will not wait until all disclosure is complete that has already been set out in correspondence from mr. Howe on the 8th of December of course we need disclosure we need

00:32:14 course we need disclosure we need disclosure of the main parts if not all are the relevant evidence that can be provided from statements made and interviews that have been provided to the police but that can be brought into

00:32:26 the police but that can be brought into those statements when it is made available but it still does represent a need for that disclosure process to be completed as soon as possible and we hope in January we intend to take

00:32:39 and we hope in January we intend to take the statements as a whole and not leave out the part of the accounts to comply with any phasing of the inquiry analysis the reason for this that we have considered is that the

00:32:51 that we have considered is that the people we represent want to be heard and they want their accounts to be given and given in a way that deals not only with what happened in the lead-up to the fire the fire itself but also the failures we

00:33:03 the fire itself but also the failures we suggest by the local authority in the state thereafter the best way for statements such as this to be provided we have found is to allow the individual to provide their own narrative account

00:33:15 to provide their own narrative account of the incident and then follow that with answers to the more detailed questions being asked through the inquiry guidance document we would be assisted if counsel to the inquiry

00:33:28 assisted if counsel to the inquiry identify for the solicitors teams carrying out this task the essential questions that are required by the experts now that is because the current

00:33:40 experts now that is because the current guidance on asking questions is some 200 questions and sub questions and the identification of those that are required by the experts sooner rather later would be of real assistance

00:33:52 later would be of real assistance whether it may be of assistance for the inquiry and chair for you to consider that there is a need to have information from core participants who are providing

00:34:03 from core participants who are providing statements as to how they would ask their evidence can be given before the inquiry because that is a practical need that this inquiry needs to have answered

00:34:14 that this inquiry needs to have answered the very many courts that exist are very used to the different ways that evidence can be provided from the witness box and in fall view from behind screens over a

00:34:26 in fall view from behind screens over a video link with views limited to the chair and representatives pre-recorded interviews and sometimes of course anonymously the question of survivor

00:34:37 anonymously the question of survivor call participants residents from the area or from those people most affected

00:34:44 sorry questions of those individuals may be requested to be asked by core participant legal teams we ask that you deal with such requests with care we

00:34:56 you deal with such requests with care we suggest that such questions be indicated well in advance and over a longer period that may be required by institutional or corporate core participants in summary therefore we propose the following

00:35:08 therefore we propose the following statement taking to start immediately disclosure as already discussed being vital to complete this process and must be targeted to be complete as early as possible in January we understand of

00:35:22 possible in January we understand of course this may be phased but the inquiry should not halt its disclosure process until complete because we can read as we go through the disclosure in phases and we'd also suggest that there

00:35:37 phases and we'd also suggest that there is a date set by which at least an indication of which method or process for giving evidence will be likely to be required and you'll forgive me for

00:35:49 required and you'll forgive me for adding the maps are completely obvious this is only an indication it should not be regarded as the final answer but because people's views may change now

00:36:00 because people's views may change now then move on to the core participant support points that have been raised already and we set out in detail at page 5 for those giving evidence there is a need to ensure that support is available

00:36:12 need to ensure that support is available that can come in many forms trained counselors the presence of a friend or a relative and of course basic

00:36:23 relative and of course basic interpretation when required but there is also need for more general but equally vital support for those core participants who need practical

00:36:34 participants who need practical assistance with child care transport and costs where they are giving evidence or not on any particular day travel attendance and subsistence allowance and

00:36:46 attendance and subsistence allowance and or loss of earnings must be considered for attending hearings and meetings in relation to the inquiry including meetings with solicitors the provision of child care at inquiry events and

00:37:00 of child care at inquiry events and inquiry days the provision for the cost of that child care to support meetings in relation to the inquiry including again meetings with solicitors support for regular small incidental expenses

00:37:13 for regular small incidental expenses incurred by core participants for example the cost of printing of documents that have been circulated mobile phone credit to support contact with solicitors and when necessary the

00:37:26 with solicitors and when necessary the enquiry access to computers and iPads or similar here it would be wrong for me not to pause and thank the work of rugby

00:37:38 not to pause and thank the work of rugby Portello who who have I think orchestrated and had been provided by companies such as Apple handing out of many laptops and iPads and alike not

00:37:49 many laptops and iPads and alike not only to the brief but to many others who have been affected there is still though the need as I was myself reminded this morning to recognize that many core

00:38:01 morning to recognize that many core participants have lost all of their belongings are still living in emergency or temporary accommodation and have great difficulty in accessing the inquiries website and receiving

00:38:12 inquiries website and receiving communication from the inquiry and their representatives this is a real stumbling block and we suggest it may well have been a shock to the inquiry team to

00:38:24 been a shock to the inquiry team to learn how many core participants still live in single rooms in hotels even to this date and many will do so over the Christmas break in terms of further

00:38:38 Christmas break in terms of further practical Arrangements it has been set out in some written submissions that a four day sitting week of the public aspect of the court might well assist in managing family responsibilities it also

00:38:50 managing family responsibilities it also is a practical way forward sometimes when dealing with large-scale inquiries or inquest to sit on for days because the fifth day is either a useful day for the inquiry chair and team but also

00:39:03 the inquiry chair and team but also where necessary if there is a need to deal with detailed legal submissions unanimity on that question the enquiry site and its location as er let me mentioned we echoed all of those

00:39:15 mentioned we echoed all of those submissions it must be closer and must be closest to those people that have lost so much the inquiry site must also allow for all faiths so that religious

00:39:26 allow for all faiths so that religious observance can be maintained as well as providing a quiet space for those who simply need to get away and clear their heads I turn now to the questioning of

00:39:42 heads I turn now to the questioning of witnesses on behalf of core participants we hope we can take this briefly and we hope hopefully the trap that an inquiry can fall into is to overly limit the

00:39:54 can fall into is to overly limit the questioning of witnesses on behalf of court participants this is an error it engenders a feeling of exclusion and non participation plus frankly it also leads

00:40:05 participation plus frankly it also leads to requests to hear submissions on these points which actually tends to hold up the process the preferred way is to simply limit further questions to new

00:40:17 simply limit further questions to new areas or new directions and not to allow repetition from core participant representatives expert evidence and

00:40:29 representatives expert evidence and timetabling page 7 of our submissions yes as recently as the 30th of November the inquiry requested that core participants make any submissions about

00:40:41 participants make any submissions about inquiry expert witnesses no later than 4 p.m. on the 4th of December 2017 we submit that this type of time tabling of submissions and responses is wrong and

00:40:53 submissions and responses is wrong and devalue the participation within this inquiry of core participants we submit this must never happen again doing this and accepting such time

00:41:05 doing this and accepting such time tabling if we were to would mean that the only dialogue that you will have will be only with lawyers and it will become a chat between us in the acquiring and it will lose the

00:41:16 acquiring and it will lose the participation of court participants I think to be fair to the inquiry team they were

00:41:20 they were parent intending to ask for immediate responses in time for this hearing attending anybody contemplated responses receive later would be ignored it

00:41:33 receive later would be ignored it perhaps it may i temporize them for a moment it perhaps should have been dealt with with a little more care because the correspondence did appear to give it has a final line but may I assist mr.

00:41:45 a final line but may I assist mr. millipede Queen's Counsel this morning excepted in his address that in fact later submissions would be welcome and so we are grateful for that but there's

00:41:56 so we are grateful for that but there's a further factor that is troubling not only the short potential timeline to comment on inquiry experts we're not at the moment informed of the basis although it's been raised already of the

00:42:10 although it's been raised already of the concerns raised by the fire brigade Union now many core participants may wish to consider that submissions from core participants about matters of general concerns such as expert evidence

00:42:21 general concerns such as expert evidence should be circulated to other core participants so that the can in fact be in other standing at a dialogue amongst call participants at a request that are being made the second point we make

00:42:36 being made the second point we make about experts and we note this morning this may have been accepted by mr. Millard is that the bereaved residents and survivor core participants should be allowed to engage their own experts

00:42:49 allowed to engage their own experts engage their own advisers and be allowed the space the time and opportunity to meet with them and go to the inquiry with expert reports that they've had

00:43:00 with expert reports that they've had time to consider and understand it's obvious as we've seen already foreshadowed in submissions made by corporates core participants that they

00:43:12 corporates core participants that they have the resources and the ability to have recourse to their own expert assistance so we suggest that it is made clear by the inquiry that this is an

00:43:24 clear by the inquiry that this is an opportunity that will be given to call participants from the block and from surrounding areas of course we we don't make the submission without thinking about the

00:43:36 submission without thinking about the consequences this is not going to be we suggest an opportunity for every single legal team every single firm of solicitors to engage their own experts it is likely and probable that the inquiry would expect us to cooperate and

00:43:48 inquiry would expect us to cooperate and act together in relation to joint instructions that is obvious but equally it is obvious that when doing so that is in fact a time-consuming exercise and the ability of two hundred-plus

00:44:01 the ability of two hundred-plus or participants when they want to to have access to experts and consider matters with them is something that will take planning and so again going back to questions that are already been

00:44:13 questions that are already been foreshadowed about disclosure the sooner we have expert reports that can be considered the better may I then move on please to deal with disclosure or more

00:44:26 please to deal with disclosure or more pointedly this has already been dealt with largely by mr. Weatherbee this is at page 9 of our written submissions we strongly support the proposal that public and corporate corporates be

00:44:38 public and corporate corporates be required to file a statement of their position including any failing that they accept on their own part and that they must be guided by a duty of candor in

00:44:49 must be guided by a duty of candor in what they say now to an extent the duty of candor is a legal phrase that has been used in relation to judicial reviews but the guidance on this applies

00:45:01 reviews but the guidance on this applies equally to inquiries an inquest the duty of candor is relevant in a second respect to the adequacy of the disclosure exercise for public authority

00:45:12 disclosure exercise for public authority call participants we urge their adherence to the guidance on discharging the duty of candor and disclosure that has been set out at 2010 by the rotary solicitor and that was published to

00:45:25 solicitor and that was published to address concerns about the inadequate appreciation of candor and disclosure duties by government departments when dealing with judicial reviews the this

00:45:37 dealing with judicial reviews the this document published in 2010 states that the guidance may also be relevant as we've said already and Inquirer's the failure of public authorities to appreciate the stick the extent of their duties to make

00:45:49 extent of their duties to make reasonable searches and how to go about them is a long-running problem by a just very briefly quote from that document a

00:46:02 public authorities objective must be must not be to win the litigation at all costs but to assist the court in this case an inquiry in reaching the correct

00:46:14 case an inquiry in reaching the correct result and thereby to improve standards in public administration we ask that not be forgotten but lawyers for institutional institutional and

00:46:25 institutional institutional and commercial core participants must be reminded of their own fundamental duty to ensure that their clients preserve documents and make adequate disclosure searches we have emphasized the broad

00:46:38 searches we have emphasized the broad approach to relevancy of documents that is required required also as part of the restoration of public confidence and that that in fact is a wider test than

00:46:49 that that in fact is a wider test than standard disclosure under the CPR the civil procedural rules public confidence will also be assisted by the victim and sub victim and survivor poor

00:47:01 sub victim and survivor poor participants having a proper opportunity to engage in the disclosure process we have observed in our written submissions at paragraph 29 that we have yet to see

00:47:12 at paragraph 29 that we have yet to see the original disclosure requests despite the quarry having affirmed that site of these might not be problematic we understand this is a matter of some debate at the moment we were appreciate

00:47:24 debate at the moment we were appreciate that the inquiry does not wish to engaged in matters which procedurally will lengthen the process but it is

00:47:36 will lengthen the process but it is possible no doubt because the inquiry itself is keeping a record in some form of schedule or chart form to potentially have access to those inquiries and questions that have been raised so far

00:47:47 questions that have been raised so far so that gaps that we identify can be identified and filled so we look forward to discussion with the council to enquiry and solicitors to

00:47:58 the council to enquiry and solicitors to the inquiry so that we consider the best way to approach that particular problem but as matters stand the court participants we represent have been unable to review the scope of disclosure

00:48:10 unable to review the scope of disclosure sought from the public authority in corporate core participants and therefore as things found we've been unable we have been unable to make any effective submissions on it and that we

00:48:21 effective submissions on it and that we suggest is not right we also agree that it is vital that all court participants are required to make a proper disclosure statement explaining how they have secured the preservation of documents

00:48:33 secured the preservation of documents how they've conducted their searches and how they are satisfied themselves that they have complied in full with their duties this is not just a formality it

00:48:44 duties this is not just a formality it serves a vital role in holding them to account and in enabling fair and meaningful engagement from the victim and survivor called participants in the disclosure process and so mr. millet has

00:48:56 disclosure process and so mr. millet has already said this and we agree with him that in practical terms there should be a meeting between representatives to deal with those sorts of issues

00:49:07 practical matters in relation to disclosure include the question of what system is going to be used may well be that this inquiry will use the relativity system that is of assistance

00:49:18 relativity system that is of assistance in relation to an inquiry that we're ready part of working with Heron Co that is the child sexual abuse inquiry we have learned through using that system but there are some issues that need to

00:49:30 but there are some issues that need to be grasped training in its use is welcome care needs to be had in terms of loading non searchable documents and there is a definite need

00:49:43 documents and there is a definite need for indexing to be completed with care and so that it can be employed properly

00:49:51 the inquiry panel and diversity of membership page 11 of our submissions this has been addressed already we have support the principle that the inquiry should in fact in corporate individuals

00:50:04 should in fact in corporate individuals with a background that is more representative of the community but there are additional ways not instead with additional ways to involve victims and survivors in this inquiry

00:50:16 victims and survivors in this inquiry examples of which are currently being used in the child sexual abuse inquiry this includes a rolling program of open seminars facilitated and attended by

00:50:28 seminars facilitated and attended by counsel and solicitors to the inquiry now this has been successful as part of that inquiry process it allows open and

00:50:39 that inquiry process it allows open and robust discussion and debate to be had between core participants and the inquiry it goes further than simply acting as a discussion group because it

00:50:50 acting as a discussion group because it allows its the seminars allow themselves the and people that attended to be used as a testbed for suggestions and indeed potential recommendations maybe make

00:51:02 potential recommendations maybe make this simple point that probably is now obvious to you sir the community and the tenants are the experts in being the service users they are also the people

00:51:14 service users they are also the people who lost their lives when those services went wrong they deserve the dignity of being able to discuss and impro prett and appropriately inform this inquiry

00:51:26 and appropriately inform this inquiry now you've already mentioned when discussing matters with mr. Mansfield that the inquiry could consider the employment of a victim and survivor consultative panel this is a method of

00:51:40 consultative panel this is a method of engaging people with an inquiry that is used by the child sex-abuse inquiry it works it is a layered approach to engaging with the community and with

00:51:52 engaging with the community and with core participants so that you don't just have a survivor and Consultative at the victim and survivor consultative panel you have seminars as well the consultative panel the way it works

00:52:04 consultative panel the way it works normally is allowed a day or week or day every two weeks or something similar to consider the practical steps that are currently being taken by the inquiry and what further suggestions would help you

00:52:16 what further suggestions would help you the seminars allow for people to engage with the ongoing work the inquiry and feed their ideas not their decisions again to you that then

00:52:32 their decisions again to you that then brings me to decision-making and recommendations this has been addressed variously in terms of the phasing suggestion that is being made by the inquiry the choice of what is or is not

00:52:45 inquiry the choice of what is or is not included within any phased or module aspect of this inquiry is a matter that we will address further in writing but as an example the stay-put advice is a matter that we respectfully submit

00:52:57 matter that we respectfully submit should very much be part of phase one if that is what you do so but all of your work all of our work will be lost in a

00:53:10 work all of our work will be lost in a library slowly gathering dust if it is not accompanied by attention given to implementation and oversight of change

00:53:21 implementation and oversight of change this means report yes we're required come to intrinsic decisions yes we're required recognize when change must occur yes we're required but do not let

00:53:34 occur yes we're required but do not let this go quietly into the good night what you must do sir is make sure that change is carried through where requires the danger of being essentially that the

00:53:45 danger of being essentially that the inquiry closes without the being oversight and so please so when you are getting to the stage of considering any recommendation one of the advantages of doing so within the life of the inquiry

00:53:57 doing so within the life of the inquiry is that you also oversee change and implementation and that is a matter that can be considered during the ongoing work of the inquiry

00:54:16 so no doubt by now you will be more acutely aware than anyone else that the reason why you have been appointed to chair this inquiry is so that you can examine potentially the failures in the

00:54:28 examine potentially the failures in the work of others this may be the most difficult work that you and council inquiry have ever undertaken much of what will be before you will be unfamiliar as you will be having to

00:54:40 unfamiliar as you will be having to consider the many areas that are within the remit of this enquiry and not be afraid to turn over the rocks and see what Horrors lurk underneath I returned to my main theme which is do not make

00:54:53 to my main theme which is do not make the mistake of discounting the work and contribution that core participants can make to this inquiry it is a mistake to say that they are simply witnesses they are not the core participants we

00:55:05 are not the core participants we represent will not just bear witness to the circumstances leading up to and surrounding the fire a ground for town on the 14th of June 2017 those core participants also have opinions about

00:55:17 participants also have opinions about how matters can be handled in the future and their ability to be heard on safety matters about relationship with the local authority and of course about the way that fire safety can be delivered in

00:55:29 way that fire safety can be delivered in the future will be vital to this inquiry success the core participants we represent have a voice and have opinions that are valuable to you listen to them and please don't reject them so if you

00:55:40 and please don't reject them so if you do this and your inquiry team are seen to be getting to the truth with bravery and conviction you will have support but already spoken of by others the gaining

00:55:52 already spoken of by others the gaining of trust from survivors of tragedy of this magnitude where people's lives have been broken and ruined by the various state that appointed you is not easy and it will take time so those are our

00:56:05 it will take time so those are our submissions can ask to speak up mister Steen thank you very much indeed they're very powerful and helpful submissions thank you very much

00:56:19 now mr. Thomas I think you're to speak next very good

00:56:32 good often mr. Leslie Thomas and I peer with Jeanne Council Nadia Mirage were currently instructed represent 17 people

00:56:44 currently instructed represent 17 people 17 core participants including three families former residents of the tower residents of the walkway and also a survivor who was neither a resident of

00:56:56 survivor who was neither a resident of the tower audible wait what was visiting a friend on the night of the fire

00:57:03 I'm instructed by three firms of solicitors ha Jules Saunders solicitors and Jane solicitors last week we

00:57:15 and Jane solicitors last week we indicated to you sir that we were going to divide up some of the topics and the topic that I would like to address you on all topics I would like to address

00:57:26 on all topics I would like to address you on our experts which has been touched on already yes and also I want to come back to the theme of diversity yes sir it goes

00:57:43 theme of diversity yes sir it goes without saying that we mustn't lose sight of the fact that the victims the victim call participants should be at the heart of this process and in a way

00:57:57 the heart of this process and in a way that very much informs the approach that we wanna say we those of us who represent victim call participants

00:58:08 represent victim call participants approach the question of expert evidence and I say that for the following reasons

00:58:17 fundamental to the process of being hiring is the quality of arms

00:58:28 we want to be in a position whereby at the end of this Engle this inquiry we can say to our clients well you know

00:58:39 can say to our clients well you know regardless of the result regardless of of the decision you had a fair crack of the whip just pause for moments and I

00:58:55 the whip just pause for moments and I said respectfully and and and consider that we already know that solve the corporate core participants have already

00:59:06 corporate core participants have already started the process of engaging their own excellence how do we know that well that's it so that's it so in their submissions to you the one thing that

00:59:18 submissions to you the one thing that you know sir those who we represent our pockets do not run deep therefore we are very much dependent on you and your team

00:59:32 very much dependent on you and your team to ensure that we are given that fair crack of the whip when it comes to the question of experts because yes it's right that a lot of your inquiry will be

00:59:45 right that a lot of your inquiry will be taken up with the personal accounts or personal histories of stories as to what happened on that night but a lot of that will be informed by the advice given by

00:59:59 will be informed by the advice given by experts so let me turn to experts

01:00:07 it's important that we have meaningful participation and process all experts and for there to be meaningful

01:00:20 and for there to be meaningful participation it's right and it's important that we have disclosure and we have disclosure early so you can't put

01:00:33 have disclosure early so you can't put the cart before the horse to be able to instruct experts properly we need the documents why do we need the documents

01:00:44 documents why do we need the documents because we want to be able to ask the right questions of the expert now that doesn't mean that we need all the documents but we certainly need

01:00:55 documents but we certainly need certainly more documents certainly than we have at the moment which is none yeah so that's really important and it cannot be lost on you or indeed your team team

01:01:08 be lost on you or indeed your team team but if you are if your aim is to be fair ensure a full process of meaningful engagement there are certain steps that

01:01:20 engagement there are certain steps that need to be taken before other steps and I'm not going to address you on disclosure because that was done already this morning and you know what the arguments are but it is important that

01:01:32 arguments are but it is important that disclosure cannot be looked at with in isolation it runs hand-in-hand with the instructions of experts

01:01:45 I'm glad see and a lot of my steam was taken away when your council this morning gave an indication that many of

01:01:58 morning gave an indication that many of the concerns that we had are going to be addressing we thank you for that I'm glad to see that the experts v's will be provided that we will have more time to

01:02:10 provided that we will have more time to have import in terms of the letters of instructions so that there can be more meaningful engagement in that process

01:02:22 can I touch upon some additional and further experts that we would invite you to consider

01:02:36 so I've already told you on behalf of the victim Corps participants of our need to play a full role in this process

01:02:51 let me add a little bit more meat and bones when it comes to experts and you'll see why it in terms of asking

01:03:05 you'll see why it in terms of asking questions and indeed in terms of knowing whether or not all the disclosure the right disclosure or whether things may

01:03:19 right disclosure or whether things may have been missed hidden disappeared who knows we needed expert input into that we would invite

01:03:33 expert input into that we would invite you sir

01:03:33 you sir to also consider the following expertise or expert opinion on housing

01:03:44 or expert opinion on housing construction that being separate and distinct from refurbishment and maintenance what you tend to find sir is

01:03:58 maintenance what you tend to find sir is those who are engaged in large-scale projects such as housing construction don't normally deal with the maintenance of afterwards it's it tends to be

01:04:10 of afterwards it's it tends to be separate and therefore having an expert in the construction we would invite you

01:04:21 in the construction we would invite you to have a separate expert in terms of once the building has been constructed how it therefore is maintained because

01:04:32 how it therefore is maintained because you tend to find but you know I'm not talking about small projects talking about a large-scale project and you know see you you understand the point

01:04:43 see you you understand the point I'm a kennel in terms of the refurbishment and maintenance we subdivide that even further it's

01:04:56 subdivide that even further it's important to note that this is not purely about the refurbishment program but also can be divided into three areas

01:05:07 but also can be divided into three areas so through those three areas are as follows firstly the original construction secondly whether there was

01:05:19 construction secondly whether there was a need for other works after the original construction and finally we

01:05:30 original construction and finally we would invite you to consider the 2012 to 2016 program of works that was undertaken we submit that it's very much

01:05:42 undertaken we submit that it's very much doubted that a single expert could address all of those issues

01:05:53 so we would invite you to consider in this inquiry the use of an independent environmental health expert we suggest

01:06:11 environmental health expert we suggest that sort of expertise is needed in a case such as this

01:06:27 we'd also invite you to consider an expert in the management of the aftermath of a disaster which may have

01:06:44 aftermath of a disaster which may have been touched upon this morning if it has forgive me I repeat it I think it's worth underscoring the point

01:06:55 the final thing I'm going to say about experts before I move on to the second area because a lot has already been said and I don't want to be repetitious is the importance that there is a proper

01:07:08 the importance that there is a proper timetable put into play which gives us a proper opportunity to consider document consider the disclosure and make meaningful and timely submissions to you

01:07:23 meaningful and timely submissions to you you and your team you would you would expect that in every other legal process why should this inquiry be any different well I couldn't agree more

01:07:34 well I couldn't agree more and I'm hoping that perhaps on the next occasion we meet for directions you can put a timetable of that sort into place with everyone's contributions I'm I would hope so too

01:07:46 would hope so too a lot will very much depend sir on the first stage which is getting some disclosures so that we can put some meaning to that timetable so can I move

01:08:04 meaning to that timetable so can I move on to some other matters that the second topic but I wanted to touch upon more diversity

01:08:19 the one thing sir that must trouble you at night when you close your eyes before

01:08:30 at night when you close your eyes before you lay your head down on that pillow is what will my legacy be now I can assure you mr. Thomas that never travels me I'm

01:08:46 you mr. Thomas that never travels me I'm not going to suggest it should do

01:08:50 but let's just look at that question what will my legacy be at the end of this inquiry and I want to look at that

01:09:01 this inquiry and I want to look at that in the context of diversity and so I make no apologies for what I'm about to say because one of the things that will

01:09:13 say because one of the things that will not be lost on you or anybody else who sits in this inquiry but you can see most of the victim core participants possess it and right at the back you

01:09:27 possess it and right at the back you couldn't get a more diverse group of people now look at the lawyers look at the lawyers who represent predominantly

01:09:38 the lawyers who represent predominantly because the way the way you've divided it us look at the lawyers who represent predominantly the corporate core participants and even to an extent look

01:09:50 participants and even to an extent look at the look at those of us who represent the victim core participants fairly homogenized group wouldn't you agree

01:10:01 homogenized group wouldn't you agree apart from your exception here and there what must they be thinking in terms of are we gonna get justice do they

01:10:12 are we gonna get justice do they understand us that is why sir these submissions that were made to you about the panel the representation on the

01:10:26 the panel the representation on the panel this isn't just lip service this isn't saying I want somebody who looks like me before the sake of somebody who looks like me no it's much more than that does this

01:10:42 no it's much more than that does this enquiry pass the smell test what is the smell test on an inquiry such as this well I've already said look at the suits

01:10:54 I've already told you to look at the victim call participants I've asked you to look take a long hard look it you will panel your Assessors your team and

01:11:07 will panel your Assessors your team and ask yourself does its pass the smell test because that relates to perceptional public perception do do

01:11:20 perceptional public perception do do they understand us do they speak our language do they know anything about social health how many of them have lived in a tower block or on a council

01:11:32 lived in a tower block or on a council estate or in social housing that affects confidence confidence or a lack of it

01:11:44 confidence confidence or a lack of it affects participation and a lack of participation from the very people matter will affect justice and a lack of

01:11:57 matter will affect justice and a lack of justice it's injustice that's all I have to say sir thank you very much well thank you very much for your submissions

01:12:09 now my running order which may not look like yours suggests that mr. Bates who's here for Russell cook had asked to address me next is mr. Bates here

01:12:23 address me next is mr. Bates here already well then you better come and do your bit mr. Bates thank you

01:12:38 yes yes sir my name is Justin Bates I'm standing in from mr. odden queue so you can't be available today and we're instructed by Russell cook on behalf of three core participants there are just three brief areas that I'd like to

01:12:50 three brief areas that I'd like to address you on if I met the first concerns your Assessors the second concerns your experts and the third is to pick up a question about the housing file has been raised by some people

01:13:01 file has been raised by some people earlier this morning yes on the question on fee Assessors we accept and acknowledge that you've decided this will not be an inquiry into social housing policy but you have

01:13:13 social housing policy but you have decided that you will need to look at questions of social housing management you will need to look at questions of relationships between different kinds of managers both the Council on the TMO and

01:13:25 managers both the Council on the TMO and you will need to look at questions of management as between the managerial bodies and the occupiers you will also need to look at management and procurement of works programs we

01:13:39 procurement of works programs we respectfully suggest that your present Assessors don't give you the expertise you would require in those fields mr. Montgomery is a noted urban regeneration specialist but at the risk of oversimplifying his

01:13:52 but at the risk of oversimplifying his experiences to identify which estate and which block needs work not how will you do that mrs. Redfern does have local government experience but not directly

01:14:03 government experience but not directly housing management experience the inquiry website Flags up her time at Wigan but Wigan of course manage their housing stock through what's called an Almo an arm's-length management organisation and at the risk of telling

01:14:16 organisation and at the risk of telling you what you mail you may already know where one has an Elmo the effect of that is to put a different edition a layer of bureaucracy between the council and the management of its stock so identifying

01:14:28 management of its stock so identifying one's experience in relation to having had at having worked for a county who has an Elmo is in fact to flag up the lack of of experience one has in social housing management and as we said in our

01:14:39 housing management and as we said in our written submissions we respectfully suggest this inquiry would benefit from someone with active experience of housing management and particularly tenant involvement in social housing management and we've suggested that

01:14:52 management and we've suggested that an additional Assessor should be appointed namely a tenant who has experience of the management of social housing and we've given some suggestions as to where one might find one of those in our written materials secondly on the

01:15:07 in our written materials secondly on the question of experts part of what I saying that will be picked up later on tomorrow by the FPU but respectfully we asked you to approve at a very early

01:15:20 asked you to approve at a very early stage funding to allow core participants collectively as was indicated earlier to identify experts to assist now firstly

01:15:31 identify experts to assist now firstly to comment on and suggest improvements to the letter of instructions and your council this morning indicate that he'd welcome that kind of input but respectfully the lawyers in the room don't have the experience to assist with

01:15:44 don't have the experience to assist with what should go into those instructions secondly as mr. Thomas just alluded to to assist with monitoring of the disclosure process so that at a very early stage experts can indicate what if

01:15:56 early stage experts can indicate what if any classes of documents they would expect to see that have not yet been identified and thirdly to ensure that all relevant lines of inquiry are pursued so you've seen the FB use submission for example are asking quite

01:16:09 submission for example are asking quite correctly in our submission why no one's been asked to comment on part one of the Housing Act 2004 and part one of the Housing Act 2004 as I'm sure you know sir is effectively male the standard

01:16:20 sir is effectively male the standard against which housing should be judged replacing the old fitness regime under the old 85 act that is something that the lawyers can identify but in terms of the questions to be asked in terms of

01:16:32 the questions to be asked in terms of the material to be explored the core participants and their lawyers need access to people who actually use that material on a daily basis to feed into the relevant questions at the risk of

01:16:43 the relevant questions at the risk of simplifying enormous lis the lawyers in the room certainly the housing lawyers can litigate about part law issues but an environmental health officer applies

01:16:54 an environmental health officer applies them on a daily basis and understands what materials to be looking for thirdly it was that the housing file if I may say so that the housing file

01:17:06 if I may say so that the housing file should be regarded as the Bible in the case of each tenants occupation it's everything that the authority or the other level other class of landlord

01:17:17 other level other class of landlord holds about you everything you've sent them everything you've forgotten you've sent them well beyond that housing file it will assist for solicitors and counsel assisting them in understanding the background to their clients it will

01:17:29 the background to their clients it will assist the individual clients in reminding them what they raised it earlier earlier times and what points they've raised it's not simply or it shouldn't be simply a repair look it

01:17:40 shouldn't be simply a repair look it could be everything any letter a counselor once wrote on your behalf anything you sent five years ago in the case of a good file it may even contain transcripts of phone calls that you've

01:17:52 transcripts of phone calls that you've had with your with your landlord and at the risk again of overplaying my hand slightly in in every housing case being heard by a district judge up and down

01:18:03 heard by a district judge up and down this country today there will have been all an order for disclosure of a housing file it's inconceivable as a housing lawyer that I would ever approach a case without having seen my clients file

01:18:14 without having seen my clients file respectfully if they're not to be disclosed there should be a compelling reason for doing so rather than an obligation on our clients to explain why information that they themselves

01:18:25 information that they themselves generated should not be made available that was all the saying so I'm very grateful thank you very much No

01:18:38 grateful thank you very much No Imran Khan and partners made some submissions and writings anyone here who'd like to speak on their behalf please come along

01:19:01 okay take your time

01:19:07 may I offer my apologies first off my colleague Imran Khan who was read your speech there but has been wanted in Sheffield for a trial which is run over my apologies right I will be making

01:19:18 my apologies right I will be making thank you for standing in yes already thank you

01:19:24 thank you so I intend to make my submissions extremely brief this afternoon which is probably my fault yes it's miss Ellis I pair from Imran

01:19:37 yes it's miss Ellis I pair from Imran Khan and partners on behalf of 23 core participants who are both resident survivors and family members of disease party thank you very much the

01:19:49 party thank you very much the submissions that we had intended to make today a large part of them have been adoption the submissions made by those who received me and I don't intend to repeat rows and so I'm instructed here

01:20:00 repeat rows and so I'm instructed here in particular by those attending today just to underline really two key points the first is simply to join others who have been represented earlier in the day

01:20:12 have been represented earlier in the day today in please for members of the community to part of a decision-making panel rather than a consultative panel in particular and I endorse the

01:20:24 in particular and I endorse the submissions of mr. Mansfield that that distinction is important and I don't need to repeat the submissions of those preceding me as to the importance of

01:20:36 preceding me as to the importance of core partisan is playing an active role in this inquiry and that I would invite you sir to consider and these are individuals who have been feeling or many of them have been feeling for a number of years that their concerns

01:20:48 number of years that their concerns about fire safety in Greville tower were not considered and who on initial meetings after the crisis came back again and again I speak as a solicitor

01:20:59 again and again I speak as a solicitor who met with those individuals in an early stage and who came back again and again to everything that they had done to try and raise five safety issues at grenfell tower and some of them over a period of years and also to the efforts

01:21:10 period of years and also to the efforts that they have made in some cases on the night itself to save those within their mr. chairman you'll be minded very much of the importance that they are heard

01:21:22 of the importance that they are heard but it is I would say a vital opportunity to empower those individuals by allowing them to feel part of the decision-making process they already feel that they're going to be asked to

01:21:34 feel that they're going to be asked to give a great deal in this inquiry many of them feel exhausted by the day-to-day effort of surviving and in hotel rooms and in the many processes of their grief

01:21:47 and in the many processes of their grief I would suggest that it would be and perhaps a groundbreaking opportunity for members of a community and who have not had an opportunity to influence public policy previously to do so and about in

01:22:00 policy previously to do so and about in turn would benefit the inquiry and wider society reference has been made already today to the McPherson Lawrence inquiry and the importance of a diverse panel in ensuring the community's trust and

01:22:12 ensuring the community's trust and confidence in that inquiry my phone continues to be instructed by Doreen Lawrence the mother of Stephen Lawrence and the family remembers to this day twenty years on from the inquiry while

01:22:23 twenty years on from the inquiry while they continue to to fight in investigations concerning the police's conduct all those years ago they do remember the inquiry as a crucial turning point in their campaign towards

01:22:35 turning point in their campaign towards justice and the key reason for that Baroness Lawrence feels very strongly is that the family not only had trust and

01:22:48 that the family not only had trust and confidence in the the panel in any enquiry throughout the process because of the appointment of a panel early on but also that the outcomes of that inquiry were nuanced and properly

01:23:00 inquiry were nuanced and properly contextualized because of the important input that having more people and a more diverse background was able to ensure and so the only other matter on which

01:23:11 and so the only other matter on which I've been instructed to and address you very brief each day and is on the issue of early disclosure about many about which many other individuals on this stand today have spoken already and this

01:23:24 stand today have spoken already and this arises not just I would say from the needs of priorities participants who are now considering their own witness evidence but also from a legitimate fear if not the skepticism

01:23:35 a legitimate fear if not the skepticism that disclosure throughout this inquiry will be selective and perhaps incomplete and that will be a process to get to a point where we've where members of the

01:23:47 point where we've where members of the public feel that there has been full or approximately full disclosure I say that with the greatest respect sir but what I mean is that that we know from our

01:23:59 mean is that that we know from our experience of inquiries and some of which and my firm has been instructed in relation to and others in the room today will be able to testify their experiences of in relation to the Hillsborough inquiry and the defensive

01:24:12 Hillsborough inquiry and the defensive miss of institutions over a period of of years and where there was a where there was culpability attributed yawn and my

01:24:23 was culpability attributed yawn and my firm's in stretching the undercover policing inquiry and it was reported over one year into that inquiry that files containing undercover police officers intelligence had been destroyed I've we've referred to that briefly in

01:24:34 I've we've referred to that briefly in our submissions at the paragraph four and it's not to attack the present inquiry team on that and the knuckles and tell them to get their act together I appreciate what's being done but our

01:24:46 I appreciate what's being done but our feeling is that if at ranched approach to disclosure is made so that things can get going the proces can get going early on that will enable and not only greater

01:24:59 on that will enable and not only greater confidence in the inquiry but also opportunity to identify early on gaps in disclosure and I I do endorse and

01:25:10 disclosure and I I do endorse and reiterate the submission made by mr. Weatherbee today that we are at a loss to understand why we cannot have access to the letters that go out save that I

01:25:21 to the letters that go out save that I appreciate in every request for disclosure it would delay potentially the process to the hindrance of the inquiry were call participants to input at each disclosure request given the

01:25:33 at each disclosure request given the volumes of those requests but I would suggest that for there to be a review process at least routinely four core participants and their sisters those affected to review the wording of

01:25:46 those affected to review the wording of those letters to input in them when it seems necessary and to ask for clarification in terms of categories or documents that are being requested I

01:25:57 documents that are being requested I think that really would serve greatly to reassure our clients and their representatives so I think that's all I had to address you on today thank you very much indeed and next on my list I

01:26:14 very much indeed and next on my list I have mr. Johnson appearing for core participants represented by Oliver Fisher

01:26:44 yes all of us Fisher in respect of a number of residents of the tower and the walkway including disabled residents on

01:26:57 walkway including disabled residents on the newly refurbished first floor of the tower who will bring a further dimension we believe to the evidence in terms of the concerns over that refurbishment and its relationship to the fire the

01:27:11 its relationship to the fire the advantage of speaking at the end of the day is that you've had the benefit of hearing the submissions made by others those comments that we've heard today build on the collaborative a bridge

01:27:23 build on the collaborative a bridge there has been between those who act for the core participants and who are survivors of the fire and we hope to continue that cooperation as matters progressed we welcome the update from

01:27:34 progressed we welcome the update from counsels the inquiry and the advances which he set out first thing this morning which address a number of the concerns which we raised in our submissions that were raised more generally we agree in broad terms with

01:27:45 generally we agree in broad terms with much of what has been said so far today by Council but in particular we wish to associate ourselves with the comments that mr. Freedman in general and mr. Weatherbee on the specific issue of

01:27:56 Weatherbee on the specific issue of disclosure we also expressly agree with the points on experts made by mr. Thomas and the need for an expert on property maintenance but for two short points

01:28:07 maintenance but for two short points which have been the subject of mr. Bates submissions there would be no need for us to trouble the inquiry with oral submissions at all but we do say to emphasize - we would say related points

01:28:20 emphasize - we would say related points first we agree with the submission of Russell Cooke which was alluded to by mr. Mansfield but there is a need for an Assessor with experience of social housing management in particular tenant

01:28:32 housing management in particular tenant participation in housing management that is essential as it brings a degree of expertise is currently lacking the

01:28:43 expertise is currently lacking the difficulty perhaps here is that housing you something everyone believes themselves to know something about we all have some involvement with it but unfortunately we do not and we are

01:28:56 unfortunately we do not and we are concerned

01:28:56 concerned that's daddy's overlooked and in our submission the evidence is essentially an Assessor is essential to assist the understanding of the enquiring to neighbor you to get to the answers you

01:29:07 neighbor you to get to the answers you need to get to the second issue relates to disclosure counsel to the inquiry asked for clarification as to why disclosure of the housing file is important and mr. Freedman noted that

01:29:20 important and mr. Freedman noted that the housing file will address who was in the property and will assist the tribe you the inquiry in that regard of course as mr. Bates pointed out the house and finds much more than that

01:29:31 house and finds much more than that counts as the inquiry and opening pointed out in the context of expert reports for phase one there is a need to understand the fire safety measures in how they performed what the housing file

01:29:44 how they performed what the housing file will contain their information it will provide any complaint made by tenants as the issues of disrepair and the functioning of fire safety equipment and what steps were taken to address those

01:29:55 what steps were taken to address those concerns and that's important not just in respect of the tower and the dwellings in the tower itself but also in relation to the walkway where there are some concerns and some issues raised

01:30:07 are some concerns and some issues raised in relation to gas safety issues which is said by some were ignored and which you will want to consider when determining the cause of the fire as

01:30:19 determining the cause of the fire as noted by many including mr. Monroe today there are those who believe that the cause of the fire was preventable the housing file will demonstrate whether there were relevant concerns raised by

01:30:31 there were relevant concerns raised by whom and their relevance to the issues raised under phase one and in that sense such disclosure is tied to effective participation and openness we'd therefore respectfully submit the

01:30:44 we'd therefore respectfully submit the disclosure of the individual housing fast is essential and I agree with mr. Bates that it is inconceivable they were the only two issues of wish to me thank you very much indeed

01:30:57 me thank you very much indeed now I had some slightly late submissions from

01:31:05 mr. Westgate who is appearing for a mr. Shahid um it is mr. Westgate here mr.

01:31:18 Shahid um it is mr. Westgate here mr. Wesley I'm sorry we had to put you in last but you probably understand the reason and we are grateful to had the

01:31:29 reason and we are grateful to had the opportunity to to speak one of the advantages I suppose of going last as the more people say that the less you

01:31:40 the more people say that the less you have to say at the end and as mr. Johnston has just pointed out that is an illustration of how effectively the cooperation between the core

01:31:52 cooperation between the core participants is operated and something that we we hope will continue I only want to make three points one about phasing one about Assessors and one

01:32:04 phasing one about Assessors and one about expert evidence but so far as phasing is concerned you've heard a great deal of submissions about the appropriateness of maintaining of the

01:32:15 appropriateness of maintaining of the phasing idea of we've said some things about that in our written submissions and I don't propose to repeat those I just don't make a point about the

01:32:26 just don't make a point about the utility of continuing with the phasing idea in particular if phasing does continue it raises the question about the status of findings in phase one

01:32:40 the status of findings in phase one particularly if decisions that have been made in that phase even on a provisional basis end up being made without full

01:32:52 basis end up being made without full information that then end up being undermined in Phase two and that's a very real possibility particularly as the the process of more detailed consideration in phase two may may throw

01:33:03 consideration in phase two may may throw up all sorts of things that simply hadn't occurred during phase one and that when the phasing proposal was first put forward what was a necessary

01:33:14 put forward what was a necessary difficulty which would simply have to be worked

01:33:16 worked round because of the urgency that then existed of course that urgency hasn't gone away and of course there is still a pressing need to reach early and

01:33:29 pressing need to reach early and recommendations about safety where necessary but as the other parties have made clear that there are other ways of addressing that particular problem in

01:33:41 addressing that particular problem in the course of the inquiry and the virtue of moving away from phasing is that it does give the opportunity to get on with the thing which is the the key concern

01:33:54 the thing which is the the key concern which is how could this have happened and that also has a knock-on point about the involvement of some core participants because they that there are

01:34:08 participants because they that there are some participants who may have feel unable or unready to talk about the the events of the fire itself but who may have a great deal to say about the way

01:34:21 have a great deal to say about the way in which the block was managed before then and of course if they have to wait until Phase two they have to wait and those important concerns of theirs are

01:34:32 those important concerns of theirs are delayed in their resolution and delayed in their having an opportunity to participate in the inquiry that's all I want to say about phasing the second point is about Assessors and here I can

01:34:44 point is about Assessors and here I can really follow on from what mr. Bates and mr. Johnson have just said about the importance of having an Assessor expertise with current practical housing

01:34:56 expertise with current practical housing management experience and it's a the thrust of a recommendation which I understand is going to be made tomorrow by the FPU as well and that's something

01:35:07 by the FPU as well and that's something which is of particular interest to those like mr. Ahmed for whom who I represent

01:35:18 like mr. Ahmed for whom who I represent who was the chairman of the lease holders Association and who can speak to the relationship

01:35:30 the relationship between the hidden and the TMO and the authority about works and about addressing safety concerns and it's the

01:35:42 addressing safety concerns and it's the it's important that you should have an Assessor who is able to evaluate the response to to those matters and will

01:35:53 response to to those matters and will also be able to inform what practical solutions or practical recommendations this inquiry can make in its report and

01:36:04 this inquiry can make in its report and it also importantly and goes to the point that was made earlier about the tenants having been systematically overlooked or ignored in the past and

01:36:16 overlooked or ignored in the past and again an Assessor will be able to bring a valuable viewpoint on that so we support the point made that there should be Assessor expertise directed particularly to housing management and

01:36:30 particularly to housing management and the Third Point deals with experts the inquiry of course is instructing its own experts and it's welcome to hear from the council to the inquiry this morning

01:36:42 the council to the inquiry this morning that they are sympathetic to the idea of core participants instructing in due course their own experts of course that will be something which will have to be carefully handled and coordinated but

01:36:55 carefully handled and coordinated but there is of course an intermediate stage because it may well be the core participants may want to put questions to the inquiries experts perhaps in writing perhaps adhering but in order to

01:37:09 writing perhaps adhering but in order to do that they will need to have the assistance of expertise in order to understand the highly technical material that's been put before them and to

01:37:22 that's been put before them and to formulate appropriate questions and the only point I make there and it's not something where we can ask for a particular direction but that's

01:37:33 particular direction but that's important that the core participants should must be appropriately supported and resourced to be able to make sense of

01:37:42 of porter and to to comment on and as i say we can't ask for a direction or camera you asked for is a to make the point in advance that we hope for a flexible and

01:37:54 advance that we hope for a flexible and unrealistic approach when requests for assistance are made those are the only points which make thank you very much indeed yes thank you we've reached this

01:38:10 indeed yes thank you we've reached this point somewhat earlier than we had expected or thought we might and before i'd take it any further can I just check that there's no one else here representing survivors bereaved or

01:38:22 representing survivors bereaved or residents who was expecting to speak and hasn't been asked or invited to do so good all right well the question then is whether we call a halt for today it's

01:38:35 whether we call a halt for today it's been a long-ass day it's quite warm in here and I suspect that mr. Maxwell Scott who's next on the list would rather start in the morning is that yes

01:38:49 rather start in the morning is that yes yes no well I think that we've got plenty of time in the diary tomorrow unless anyone's going to stand up and tell me that the time they've been allotted isn't enough no well in that

01:39:00 allotted isn't enough no well in that case I think the best thing is to for me to rise now thank you all for your assistance which has been considerable thank you all for being so concise which is always

01:39:12 all for being so concise which is always welcome and we shall sit again tomorrow at half past ten and take it on from there all right thank you very much indeed