RBKC Building Control officer gives evidence about building regulations compliance, fire safety requirements, and inspection procedures for Grenfell Tower refurbishment.
00:00:22 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear evidence from one of the building control inspectors with the royal borough of kensington and chelsea
00:00:33 chelsea who was concerned with the refurbishment of grenfell tower yes mr miller warning mr chairman yes i now call mr john hoban please
00:00:53 please take the bible in your right hands
00:00:58 hands i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall be that i shall give shall be the whole true i shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr hoban
00:01:10 truth thank you very much mr hoban would you like to sit down and make yourself comfortable
00:01:18 now mr hoban before i invite mr millet to put some questions to you there are just a couple of things i would like to say the first is i understand that there are things you'd like to say to the people who were affected by the
00:01:29 to the people who were affected by the fire you will be given an opportunity to do that
00:01:33 do that and i think it would probably be most convenient if you were to do that at the end of your evidence all right but we'll make sure you get that chance thank you the other thing is that we have a break during the morning
00:01:44 have a break during the morning and during the afternoon in any event but if you feel that you need a break from time to time would you just indicate that to me and we can ensure that it happens i will good thank you very much
00:01:55 you very much yes mr mr chairman thank you very much mr hoban good morning can i start by thanking you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with your evidence in our investigations
00:02:07 our investigations if you have any difficulty understanding the questions that i'm asking you i'm happy to repeat the question or put the question in a different way can i also ask you to keep your voice up so that the transcriber who sits to your
00:02:18 so that the transcriber who sits to your right
00:02:19 right can get down your evidence onto the transcript and add that if you nod or shake your head that doesn't go onto the transcript so you have to say yes or or no as the case may be if you need a
00:02:30 or no as the case may be if you need a break
00:02:31 break as you've heard from the chairman at any time other than the scheduled breaks that we plan to take during the morning and the afternoon please just indicate and we can take a break now you've made two witness statements for the inquiry
00:02:42 statements for the inquiry i think they are in a folder on your desk and you've also made a police statement which i'm going to take you to as well um can i ask you to go to your first statement please that's rbk3033934
00:02:58 first statement please that's rbk3033934 is that your first statement date of the 30th of november 2018 yes it is can you go to page 12 please
00:03:08 is that your signature it is now you've also provided exhibits jeh 1 to 5 with that statement and just for the transcript no need to turn them up those are
00:03:20 rbk3033936 to rbk3033931 inclusive can i ask you have you read this statement recently mr hoban i have thank you and can you confirm
00:03:32 i have thank you and can you confirm that the contents are true yes can i now take you to your second statement this is at rbk3050416
00:03:44 this is dated the 9th of july 2019. is that your second statement it is can we please can we please go to page 24 yes or you'll see a signature above the
00:03:55 yes or you'll see a signature above the date is that your signature yes it is now you've also provided exhibits jeh 6 and je h7 with that statement and their references are rbk3050415
00:04:08 and their references are rbk3050415 and rbk3050414 respectively there's no need to look at those i'm just reading those into the record
00:04:16 record have you read this your second statement recently i have thank you and can you confirm that the contents are true yes i i would say that uh at the time of writing this statement i
00:04:29 at the time of writing this statement i i didn't have access to various uh documents at the time so
00:04:37 my answers would be more detailed now with some of the information that i've got in my possession now very good well we'll see how we go with that now the inquiry also has a copy of the
00:04:48 now the inquiry also has a copy of the draft statement provided by the metropolitan police but not signed by you but as i understand it there are some corrections which you have made to it and that should be in your witness bundle in front of you
00:05:00 bundle in front of you um it's at hob50218 now if you would just look at that we can see from the front page that it's not been signed
00:05:11 not been signed and we understand from your legal representatives that you annotated this statement and returned it to the metropolitan police on the 14th of february 2018. is that right uh yes
00:05:26 is that right uh yes um if you um go back please to be shown rbk3033934 this is your first inquiry statement can
00:05:37 this is your first inquiry statement can i ask you to go to page one paragraph two
00:05:42 two yes uh you say there as per the witness statement protocol i confirm that i have provided a statement to the police regarding this matter
00:05:50 matter although i have yet to formally sign that statement i confirm that to the best of my recollection the matter stated within that statement are true and accurate i consent for that statement to be disclosed to the public inquiry
00:06:02 disclosed to the public inquiry is the annotated statement that we've just um
00:06:05 just um looked at um or just referred to hob50219 the statement that you're referring to there could you repeat the numbers please
00:06:16 could you repeat the numbers please sorry yes uh it's hob502 we could put that up on the screen in front of you yes yes thank you um and uh
00:06:27 yes yes thank you um and uh you have made some amendments to it um can i show you one of those i just asked you to confirm something
00:06:35 something if you would be shown page 11 in this document please
00:06:40 you'll see that about a quarter of the way down there's a paragraph break which starts i was aware new windows were being fitted you see that
00:06:57 about about a fifth of the way down there's a paragraph indentation and then a line that starts i was aware oh yes yes thank you now if you go down a little bit four lines from that you say as far as i
00:07:11 four lines from that you say as far as i can recall i went up on the hoist on three
00:07:15 three that's incorrect can you can you explain what you mean there what you would like that to say six occasions as far as i can recall i see six occasions but three occasions
00:07:26 i see six occasions but three occasions with cass i think uh yes i believe so right subject to that correction uh and and you'll see also that there are some parts perhaps you can explain there are parts
00:07:37 perhaps you can explain there are parts of this statement in red and parts in green
00:07:40 green could you just explain for us what you uh indicate by the red and the green um i can't exactly remember one was that i wanted something taken
00:07:51 one was that i wanted something taken out
00:07:52 out yes and the and and the other color was i wanted it included as we understand it the green was to go out and the red was to come in would
00:08:03 out and the red was to come in would that be right yes uh and just just for an example of that while we're on this page just to be absolutely accurate if you look down this page to about two-fifths of the way down you'll see that the first red edition
00:08:16 you'll see that the first red edition there or first read words in uh can be found in the line there are no specific guidelines for and then you've added in red this cancels building control surveyors correct so that's an addition you would
00:08:27 correct so that's an addition you would wish to make yes yes yes so all the reds are additions you would wish to make and the greens are are those to go out thank you very much subject to that mr hoban um can you confirm that the
00:08:38 hoban um can you confirm that the contents of this statement are with those corrections are true to the best of your knowledge and belief there's one further amendment at the end yes
00:08:47 yes you can turn to the last page please no not that sorry not that page
00:08:58 no not that sorry not that page uh yes uh there's a comma um sorry bear with me
00:09:16 well if it's a comma uh then we may be able to find it later all right rather than interrupt it's important it's uh it's in relation to uh fire safety uh regulatory reform
00:09:27 uh fire safety uh regulatory reform order
00:09:28 order there's a uh what it indicates is it it should all read as one one one paragraph and not just fire safety and then the right regulatory
00:09:40 and then the right regulatory uh very well subject to that potential correction which we'll find during a break
00:09:45 break um can you confirm that this statement is true to the best of your belief and that you adopted as your evidence yes i do thank you very much finally on this
00:09:54 this there are some exhibits with your police statement just for the transcript these are met
00:10:00 are met 3071032 to met 307
00:10:06 and that's in the record now final question on this have you discussed the evidence that you're going to give today with anybody before coming here just my my counsel right
00:10:18 just my my counsel right uh and when you say just your counsel um do i take it you you didn't discuss the substance of the evidence you're going to give oh no no thank you i'm going to start with some questions about your qualifications
00:10:29 some questions about your qualifications mr hoban if i may uh your qualifications and experience are set out i think in your cv which you exhibited as jeh6 to your state second witness statement can we
00:10:41 state second witness statement can we look at that it's rbk three zero five zero four one please
00:10:49 you won't find that in the i won't no look on the screen yes uh is that your cv
00:10:57 can we scroll up look that's that that's the first page of it right and we can see from that that you i've signed it yes yes that is my cv at the bottom left right hand corner bottom right that's your
00:11:08 hand corner bottom right that's your signature yes now you we can see that you have a btec ordinary certificate in building studies that you obtained in 1982 yes and a b tech hire certificate in building studies obtained in 1985.
00:11:20 building studies obtained in 1985. yes now am i right that your professional experience includes working as a junior technical officer in the building regulations division and late later than that a technical assistant in the district
00:11:31 technical assistant in the district surveyors service of the greater london council yes that was from 1979
00:11:37 1979 to 1986 yes and since 1986 up to the end of march 2017 you worked i think as a senior building control surveyor
00:11:47 surveyor at the royal borough of kensington and chelsea yes and you have no other professional qualifications i think uh no i i'm an associate member the uh
00:11:58 no i i'm an associate member the uh association of building engineers yes uh and am i right that you effectively worked your way up from a junior position
00:12:06 position correct yes and retired on the 31st of march 2017. i resigned resigned was there any particular reason why you resigned ah yes can you tell us
00:12:17 why you resigned ah yes can you tell us very briefly ah what those are i resigned because i had enough i i wasn't able to do the job that
00:12:28 i i wasn't able to do the job that how i was trained to do and it was affecting my health and i just decided that i didn't want to work there anymore right okay we may come back to that
00:12:39 right okay we may come back to that later on uh on page two of your cv if we just go to that while we have it on the screen you explain your role at rbkc
00:12:50 explain your role at rbkc and and you set it out at some length uh for much of that page um can i just summarize that for for people watching um is it right that you dealt with
00:13:01 um is it right that you dealt with building regulation applications which included review of documents and site visits
00:13:06 visits correct and you gave general and specific advice on building regulations matters
00:13:11 matters yes yes yes and advised junior colleagues yes and you dealt with inquiries from building professionals and the public yes yes and also investigated dangerous
00:13:23 yes yes and also investigated dangerous structures where you were asked to do that
00:13:26 that yes yes and liaising with other colleagues and departments and statutory bodies such as the lfepa uh yes yes now i'm going to come later on to examine with you your role within the
00:13:38 examine with you your role within the department the building control department at rbkc can you just confirm that at the time you were allocated to the grenfell tower project in the latter part of 2013
00:13:49 project in the latter part of 2013 and more accurately we'll look at in a moment you had about 35 years experience as a building control surveyor in central london
00:13:59 london yes yes now you mentioned professional memberships and you said you were an associate member of the association of building engineers is that right yes and also an associate member of the
00:14:10 and also an associate member of the chartered association of builder building engineers are they are they different or the same organization uh the the association got chartership so it changed from
00:14:21 so it changed from from being uh an association and they got
00:14:25 got got a chartered association so the abe became the cabe correct right and what did you do anything um but like an exam or an interview to become an associate member of the
00:14:36 become an associate member of the chartered
00:14:37 chartered association of building engineers uh i filled in of an application form and i sent my cv in and that's the level of membership
00:14:48 in and that's the level of membership that they
00:14:49 that they they gave me at that time right right and when was that can you remind me think it was uh sorry
00:15:02 uh sorry um
00:15:08 yes you do say on page one yeah january 2013
00:15:17 as a member of the cab were you required to undertake cpd continuing professional development there was no actual standards set out for my grade of officer right but i did
00:15:29 for my grade of officer right but i did take cbd
00:15:32 take cbd we'll come come to that um you say there was no standard uh actual standard set up for your grade of officer what was your grade of officer
00:15:40 officer i was an associate member right and
00:15:47 did you keep any um
00:15:52 well did they lay on any um seminars or conferences for you to attend uh we had in our house seminars from time to time right in the office and i did a uh
00:16:04 right in the office and i did a uh attend other training i uh i went on a day course prior to becoming a member uh for for uh for the chartered institute
00:16:19 for for uh for the chartered institute i also attended a a day course in uh at ones worth town hall when part time of the building regulations got changed
00:16:30 regulations got changed i went on that those were those were courses organized by the institute were they uh
00:16:36 they uh or the association no were they organized by rbkc uh they weren't organized by rbkc i i the institute won yes
00:16:47 i the institute won yes for the membership that that was organized by the actual institute itself right
00:16:52 right which i attended i think it was 2012. uh the the one relating to part 10 i i saw it somewhere and i asked my my line manager if i could attend
00:17:04 line manager if i could attend right based on your professional experience and years of service were you eligible for one of the higher grades of membership of the cabe
00:17:13 i would have to take a professional uh or take an examination it could be through interview and i would have to uh put a uh
00:17:26 uh put a uh a thesis together why didn't you go through those hoops uh at the time i was looking after my mother uh i was her carer
00:17:39 uh i was her carer i followed and what prompted you to become an
00:17:42 become an associate member of the cabe in 2014 i knew they were changing the rules it was going to be uh
00:17:52 they were they were setting the buyer bar
00:17:55 bar higher as regard for membership so i i
00:18:02 so i i was told that so i i applied what was my intention to go mature uh applicants entrance but as i say because i was looking after
00:18:13 because i was looking after or helping looking after my mother that took up a considerable amount of my time and i never i never did that yes i see can i then turn to cpd and
00:18:25 yes i see can i then turn to cpd and training within our vkc which we touched on a moment ago in that role uh at rbkc were you required to undertake training
00:18:36 undertake training uh yes yes now rbkc has provided your training records to the inquiry and i just want to show you those rbk3050414 please
00:18:48 those rbk3050414 please page one is the first page of that and i want to look at page two this is your training record and at page two we can see uh
00:18:59 two we can see uh that your records go back to
00:19:03 uh january 1999. you could see at the bottom there nlp diploma workshop part one training center 29th january 1999. um so that's when they started and if we
00:19:15 so that's when they started and if we could scroll up to the first page we could see that according to this record they end on the 7th of november 2016. you see that yes are you able to tell us whether this record covers all internal training that you undertook
00:19:27 all internal training that you undertook at rbkc during this period no it doesn't right what else what does it not cover uh as i say we i had attended uh outside courses we we also had in-house
00:19:40 outside courses we we also had in-house seminars from from time to time that were organized and those aren't on this record they're not are they on other records i would have had handwritten records at the time but i don't believe they're available now
00:19:51 don't believe they're available now right so you would have had them they were they're yours were they are bkc's they were mine they were yours and you don't have them now can you explain why not
00:19:59 not uh when i left i i i no longer kept them right so you kept them in the office yes and left the office and now don't have
00:20:10 and left the office and now don't have access to them correct i see um there was uh other as i say uh we would have when regulation or new approved documents came in we would have
00:20:21 came in we would have a in-house uh lunchtime seminars on on the changes to the building regulations right you would have in-house seminars
00:20:34 right you would have in-house seminars we'll come back to that in a moment but just on this document um your internal records i think indicate that you had training on matters which are which aren't directly relevant to building control so for example if you
00:20:46 building control so for example if you look halfway down page one you get training on uh the local government pension scheme 2014 pension changes
00:20:54 changes yes is that right did you have training on all kinds of things that weren't directly part of your job yes and and uh if you look at the work right
00:21:06 and uh if you look at the work right uh training you undertook in february 2015 you can see that there are a number of entries there for the 18th of february 2015. including stress awareness manual
00:21:18 including stress awareness manual handling mobile workers etc was that specific to building control or was that just more general training that was for the council that was for the council when you say that was for the council was that
00:21:29 the council was that what does that mean it was a requirement that officers did these work rights training courses and that was automatically registered on
00:21:41 automatically registered on onto the system when you when you completed
00:21:44 completed the the actual course i see well that's my understanding i follow in the last but one of those work right entries we can see work right fire safety awareness
00:21:56 work right fire safety awareness training
00:21:57 training was that to do with the building regulations and your role as a building's building somewhere that was general uh or as far as i can recall now as to
00:22:08 uh or as far as i can recall now as to a general safe fire safety awareness i see in the office looking a little lower down the same page we can see that there is a
00:22:19 the same page we can see that there is a comply wise fire safety program on which you get a hundred percent as an online grade on the 1st of june 2010 yes did that relate to your role as a
00:22:31 did that relate to your role as a building control surveyor not that i'm aware of i i couldn't be certain
00:22:37 certain looking at page one as a whole mr hoban which spans a period from march 2009 to november 2016. do
00:22:44 2016. do any of these courses or meetings uh or seminars relate to your role as a building control surveyor dangerous structure training
00:22:56 yes i see anything else
00:23:02 not not there right
00:23:06 uh you mentioned lunchtime seminars provided by rbkc specifically on building the building regulations
00:23:17 regulations did you have any internal training on approved documents yes as and when they came out or there was amendments
00:23:28 amendments i see who delivered that training it was generally managers in the office right can you remember getting any specific training on approved document b
00:23:40 yes it would be some some year years ago when the new document came came out we also had uh
00:23:51 we also had uh in-house training when when there was changes to to the regulations i believe in uh 2010 yes
00:24:02 uh 2010 yes and who delivered those managers again managers again can you give us some names
00:24:06 names uh would be john jackson right and uh mr gammon mr david david gavin right and who would receive those training uh
00:24:19 right let's see
00:24:23 did you get training on any uh aspect of approved document b in particular or on approved document b generally uh
00:24:34 approved document b generally uh as i say we would would talk about amendments we would go through the pardon me the amendments when they came out and uh and discuss them likewise when there was
00:24:47 and discuss them likewise when there was uh
00:24:48 uh there was a community's uh
00:24:52 performance standards we had uh i can recall having uh uh uh afternoon seminar on on that
00:25:03 afternoon seminar on on that did you get any training at any stage on technical industry guidance for examples the cwc standard no what about the building control
00:25:14 no what about the building control alliance
00:25:15 alliance technical notes no right um well we may come back to those shortly can we just look at another record for your personal um
00:25:26 another record for your personal um development or training rbk3048696 please
00:25:33 please and this is your um at page six your personal
00:25:37 personal development plan if we can go to page six in that document we can see that this is from 2014 through to 2015 july 14 to february
00:25:49 through to 2015 july 14 to february 15 and if you look at item one it says keep up to date with changes in the building regulations etc it is expected that there will be a number of changes before may 2015 due to
00:26:02 number of changes before may 2015 due to the findings of the housing standards review
00:26:05 review date with this this will be achieved february 15. progress we'll look through draft proposals for adh adm adq etc
00:26:16 do you know who came up with the goals for your selected personal development plan in particular it would be the line manager that uh did my uh
00:26:27 the line manager that uh did my uh uh performance review was that john allen
00:26:31 allen at this time
00:26:34 what is the date of this one again well this
00:26:37 this run
00:26:42 i see and were those goals selected because you were not up to date with the building regulations no they were new documents that came in
00:26:53 no they were new documents that came in that one were amendments of that at that time
00:26:58 time i see so do we take from that answer that every surveyor in your position or at your level
00:27:05 level in rbkc's building control department would have been told as a development goal to keep up to date with the changes in the building regulations i believe so but i i wouldn't have i
00:27:17 i believe so but i i wouldn't have i wouldn't have direct knowledge of what their uh what their personal development plan was if you look down at item five it says provide training opportunities to support cpd requirements of professional
00:27:28 support cpd requirements of professional associations rbkc commitment to provide two days training per year did rbkc fulfill that commitment
00:27:52 there would have been a certain amount of uh
00:27:55 of uh lunchtime seminars and uh
00:28:04 so i don't know whether that would have mounted up to to uh two days but uh it was considered acceptable to read professional uh magazines and uh
00:28:19 and other other information on on the regulations that was considered uh training as regards the two two days training
00:28:29 training now you told us that your membership your associate membership of the cabe didn't have a cpd requirement did that mean
00:28:39 mean that you didn't take advantage or weren't required to take advantage of the two days training per year offered by our bkc to support membership no i i as i say i would re read
00:28:50 no i i as i say i would re read documents
00:28:51 documents right and magazines anza right now you say in your second statement that you attended seminars and which you
00:29:03 that you attended seminars and which you paid for yourself yes and you attended those on your own time did you keep any records of those yes where are those records do you know uh
00:29:11 uh i i can obtain them for for for you have you been asked for those documents before not that i'm aware right are they in your personal possession at
00:29:23 are they in your personal possession at home
00:29:24 home uh i would check i would think they they i i can get copies right from your from memory can you tell us whether any of those
00:29:33 those uh seminars which you paid for yourself covered approved document b
00:29:45 it may have formed parts of the day i i can't i can't recall that far back did any of those seminars cover uh things like fire performance on external
00:29:57 things like fire performance on external wall constructions uh or fire safety classification of materials to be used in external wall constructions no not that i'm aware all right now if we look at your
00:30:09 we look at your second witness statement please rbk3040 sorry 50416. i'd like to look at page one paragraph three you do
00:30:22 three you do identify one of these seminars
00:30:26 as one operated by uh abe
00:30:32 and you say that one of the seminars was on means of escape bs9999 and that's fire safety in the design and
00:30:44 and that's fire safety in the design and management of use of and use of buildings code of practice that relates to non-residential buildings i think wasn't it yes that was uh after i left kensington yes and that's it it's the 11th of june 2017.
00:30:57 it it's the 11th of june 2017. yeah uh yes why were you attending a seminar on that matter at that time
00:31:08 it was my intention to go back into building control uh once i left the council right i see so you're keeping yourself up to date correct i follow
00:31:23 now if we go back to um your appraisal and personal development plan a little bit later on it's a slightly different document rbk3048753
00:31:34 slightly different document rbk3048753 we go to page three in that that records you
00:31:38 you as this is under targets records at page three there you attend a seminar by john allen on the 22nd of september 2015. if you look under mid-year comment
00:31:49 2015. if you look under mid-year comment second item down do you see that yes what did that seminar cover i can't recall right uh and it says just above that attended training by
00:32:00 above that attended training by labc on date to be supplied by j e h uh what did that cover or did it happen i think his first question
00:32:10 sorry i can't recall right do you remember having any training by the labc in your time at rbkc that the only thing that comes to mind is whether this uh in
00:32:22 comes to mind is whether this uh in relation to part 10 whether that was uh which i attended at onesworth town hall
00:32:28 hall right uh that that would i would think that would reflect uh that particular time yeah because as i say they they introduced uh uh considerable amendments to
00:32:42 uh considerable amendments to the old parter m right and other parts as well i think uh yes but not b not b can we look at rbk3048852 please
00:32:57 can we look at rbk3048852 please and this is your triborough appraisal and personal development plan 2016-17 and if you go to page two please you can see there that under targets
00:33:13 it says that there are normally five targets
00:33:16 targets and if you uh look down there you can see in the bottom right hand corner under success criteria there are eight examples to be provided of professional development
00:33:29 professional development and those are to be provided by february 2017
00:33:33 2017 and you can see that one of those was building control related courses you see that
00:33:37 that yes did you achieve that
00:33:46 i would have attended some in-house
00:33:50 seminars i see anything but not outside um not not that i'm aware of
00:34:01 um not not that i'm aware of and on those building control related courses
00:34:05 courses provided in-house did any of those specifically at that time cover approved document b or industry guidance
00:34:13 guidance i i can't recall right did you attend any technical seminars or cpd activities in the period 2011 to
00:34:26 cpd activities in the period 2011 to 2016
00:34:27 2016 in other words just before and after sorry before and during your involvement with grenfell so i would
00:34:34 would attend in-house seminars uh as i say read magazines right i mentioned that course that i went on relating to part m and we did have a
00:34:46 relating to part m and we did have a company come in and give us a presentation on on under part p right as well did any of the training that
00:34:57 as well did any of the training that you've got here which is indicated by this document cover the requirements of part b of the building regulations or approved document b i remember when
00:35:09 or approved document b i remember when uh when the uh when regulation 38 came in we had a uh uh
00:35:20 in we had a uh uh and there was there was other amendments at the time and we had uh uh a seminar or an in-house training at the time i think that was about 2010
00:35:34 at the time i think that was about 2010 actually when that came in and we went through uh generally the changes in the regulations at that stage
00:35:45 at that stage i see did did that or any other any of these seminars cover over cladding of high-rise residential buildings no
00:35:56 now if we go to your second witness statement please at page two you also refer to seminars there but if we look at uh paragraph four little roman three
00:36:07 uh paragraph four little roman three right at the top of the page you say attending from time to time seminars provided by manufacturers and other organizations relating to building regulation matters
00:36:18 relating to building regulation matters yes have you ever attended seminars by and these are examples
00:36:24 celetex uh i may have some years ago some considerably some some time ago right can you just help us a bit with your memory on that
00:36:37 your memory on that roughly when do you think you attended a seminar given by celetex it may have been uh 2005 something like that
00:36:45 that some some some time right previously and do you remember what the subject of the seminar was or presentation was mainly to do with uh thermal conductivity i believe right
00:36:59 what about kingspan did you ever attend a seminar given by kingspen ah i can't recall right what about a company called alcoa later archonic
00:37:11 a company called alcoa later archonic no sidorize no when celetex gave the uh gave the seminar or presentation that you've referred to did they come
00:37:22 you've referred to did they come direct into the council offices they they were
00:37:25 they were they were lunchtime seminars that were set up by
00:37:29 set up by one of the managers who was was responsible for for doing that and what would happen was they would invite architects and surveyors in
00:37:40 architects and surveyors in in and it would be lunch would be given a sandwich sort of buffet and then it would be a presentation between an hour and an hour and a half
00:37:52 and an hour and a half just going through uh generally the product
00:37:57 product was it common for manufacturers of building products to come to our bkc's building control department and make seminars or presentations about their product
00:38:08 presentations about their product uh there would be uh there would be a number of of uh in-house seminars for further details on
00:38:19 in-house seminars for further details on on that
00:38:21 on that we had what was known as the rbkc building control news and it would list out
00:38:28 out it was a it was a a newsletter and that would list forthcoming seminar lunchtime seminars right uh i don't know who that was sent to
00:38:40 don't know who that was sent to uh it was printed out and i don't know whether it was emailed somebody else was responsible for that and over what years do you remember receiving our bkc news
00:38:53 do you remember receiving our bkc news well from when it it's it started i i believe uh with some some year yeah it would be about 2000
00:39:04 some year yeah it would be about 2000 something like that it was a newsletter uh i believe produced by uh paul hansen uh
00:39:15 i believe produced by uh paul hansen uh and it would be uh as i say be what was going on as regards building control it would sometimes give a a profile of a of a surveyor uh
00:39:26 a profile of a of a surveyor uh it would sometimes give guidance on on on certain aspects of the building regulations for for architects and surveyors yes how frequently did it come out
00:39:38 frequently did it come out ah i'm not certain as i say i i looked at this information prior to coming here and there would be uh there was a number of them
00:39:49 them uh it would go generally spring i don't know whether there was uh other editions right you say it was produced by paul hanson did the rbkc news
00:40:00 news or the editions that you saw have have a particular emphasis on fire safety it would uh it would call up fire safety in relation to uh sometimes domestic
00:40:13 relation to uh sometimes domestic uh properties uh i believe there was uh some advice on fire cater fire curtains
00:40:25 sometimes you give a a profile of as i say
00:40:29 say the the surveyors and um and it would sometimes give a uh
00:40:44 a page case study of of a particular project
00:40:50 project looking a little bit further down this page in front of us little roman four you say reading technical literature and other information relating to products or systems did that include celetex rs 5000
00:41:02 did that include celetex rs 5000 insulation board for example i yes when i was dealing with the project
00:41:09 project i i looked at information right we'll come back to that in a little bit more detail later on did it include product literature produced by kingspan in respect of k-15
00:41:21 produced by kingspan in respect of k-15 cool firm insulation i may have looked at that at another time
00:41:27 time uh in relation to u-values i see what about tp-10 again it would have would have been on uh if i had uh it wasn't at the time of grandfather
00:41:38 uh it wasn't at the time of grandfather it would be it would have been prior if i was looking looking for a u-value requirement in relation to uh an extension
00:41:49 in relation to uh an extension and what about rayno bond acm rain screen panels particularly pe rain screen panels produced by renault uh i looked at
00:42:00 uh i looked at the bba certificate for for uh rayna bond at the time of of uh i believe i did
00:42:11 of uh i believe i did at the time of of when i was dealing with uh the grenfell tab
00:42:18 tab you did did you yes right we will certainly come back to that later on um did you ever read product literature and relating to cider eyes rain screen cavity barriers do you think yeah
00:42:29 cavity barriers do you think yeah yes again was that at the time of the grenfell project yes i see now you uh say in roman 7 on the same page that you would contact technical departments of manufacturers
00:42:41 technical departments of manufacturers and product providers when i needed advice on such matters did you do that at any time in respect of any product used on the grenfell tower
00:42:52 tower not that i'm aware of i see when just going back to the practices within rbkc for a moment was there any
00:43:03 within rbkc for a moment was there any system
00:43:04 system or practice within rbkc where if someone else other than you went to a seminar or a conference they would share what they learned with the rest of the team
00:43:17 sometimes wasn't consistent no i understand the reason i ask is that jose anon if that's how you pronounce his name yes who was the deputy building control
00:43:28 yes who was the deputy building control manager under john allen says at paragraph 13 that that would happen but you i think recall that do you happening from time to time well i know
00:43:37 i know when i i went on the apart m1 i i actually gave
00:43:44 a presentation i think to the office on on on on that to actually the planners as well
00:43:56 to actually the planners as well we used to have uh every every so often i think it was once a month we'd have a planning stroke building control meeting
00:44:07 planning stroke building control meeting and i actually i do recall giving a presentation on on what what i had learned at that that seminar to to planners
00:44:19 at that that seminar to to planners and my colleagues very well i just need to read
00:44:23 to read a reference in the reference to mr anna's statement is rbk3029897 and the reference is paragraph 13 is a page 3. i don't need to show you that but building on your last answer can i
00:44:35 but building on your last answer can i show you a document rbk40121 please
00:44:45 now this is a set of minutes of the london district surveyors association general meeting on the 15th of october 2015
00:44:54 2015 mr hoban time at 10 o'clock now you can see who uh was there and the councils they represented and you can see that kensington and
00:45:06 and you can see that kensington and chelsea was represented by jose anon and if you go to page four you can see that uh there
00:45:18 you can see that uh there at the very end of the large box just above paragraph 11 labc pc it says has a large office building nine stories that has pir cladding as
00:45:31 nine stories that has pir cladding as opposed to rockwool insulation over 18 meters high bca technical guide 18
00:45:37 18 at the labc conference last year there was a presentation on this subject and the cladding has to be of limited combustibility but kingspan confirmed that their pir insulation does burn
00:45:48 that their pir insulation does burn pc attended a recent lfb seminar and advised that their smoke control guide and suppression system guide are due soon in addition 999 and revisions are due 99911 year now you
00:46:02 revisions are due 99911 year now you weren't there my question is did anybody at rbkc attend the labc conference in 2014 in other words the year before this one
00:46:13 in other words the year before this one no it would it would only be managers that would go go
00:46:17 go to to those right do you remember whether anybody like like a manager went to the labc conference in 2014 i wouldn't know right did anybody come
00:46:28 i wouldn't know right did anybody come back from that conference or was there any word in the office about what had been learned at that conference about um the cladding having to be of limited combustibility no i don't recall any of that right
00:46:41 no i don't recall any of that right did mr anon share the information from this 2015 london district surveyors general meeting with you i i don't recall ever seen
00:46:52 with you i i don't recall ever seen seeing that can i then turn to a different topic which is regulations and guidance
00:46:58 guidance now in general terms mr hoban would i be right in thinking that as a building surveyor with some 35 years of experience or so you were familiar with the requirements of schedule one part b
00:47:09 of schedule one part b to the building regulations 2010 yes and would you also be familiar with the guidance in approved document b yes did you deal with part b of the building regulations and approve
00:47:21 building regulations and approve document b regularly as part of your role as a surveyor within the bco yes yes and what about parts b3 and b4 specifically uh
00:47:33 specifically uh yes yes now let's just just examine adb in a little bit more detail and i want to focus on external fire spread if i may can i ask you please to go to clg
00:47:47 can i ask you please to go to clg 50173 please which is adb and invite you to look at page 95
00:47:56 and that's the first page up there 95 95 is section 12 construction of external walls and if we look at the bottom right hand side of that or
00:48:08 side of that or bottom right hand corner we can see if you go down external wall construction and underneath that paragraph 12.5 yes were you familiar with that part of
00:48:19 yes were you familiar with that part of adb
00:48:19 adb that section yes so you say the rule or the guidance external envelope for building should not provide a medium for fast spread if it's likely to be a risk to health or safety that was something
00:48:30 to health or safety that was something you knew well did you yes yes and then it says in the next paragraph
00:48:35 paragraph well i should read it all the use of combustible materials in the cladding system
00:48:39 system and extensive cavities may present such a risk in tall buildings external walls should either meet the guidance given in paragraphs 12.6 to 12.9
00:48:48 12.9 or meet the performance criteria given in the bre report br 135 for cladding systems using full-scale test data from bs8414 of 2002 or 2005.
00:49:01 from bs8414 of 2002 or 2005. did you understand from this at the time of the grenfell tower project and your involvement in it that adb contained essentially two potential
00:49:12 contained essentially two potential routes to compliance with the functional requirement of b4 part b4 of the building regulation it gave you
00:49:19 gave you uh four options as for you could use the approved document b you could do a desktop study you could offer a fire engineering solution
00:49:32 offer a fire engineering solution or you could use br135 which of those routes to compliance was followed on grenfell tower at the time i thought it was 80
00:49:45 at the time i thought it was 80 proof document b and what do you mean by that in detail can you just explain
00:49:56 that that the uh the cla uh the actual panels themselves were classo
00:50:06 that the insulation was suitable for for use on
00:50:09 use on on buildings of that height and that cavity barriers would be provided in the appropriate location and when you say that the insulation was
00:50:21 and when you say that the insulation was suitable for use on buildings of that height
00:50:24 height what do you mean by that well um
00:50:28 the the information that i looked up on the labs labc website said that the celetex
00:50:40 website said that the celetex rs 5000 was suitable for use on buildings of that height
00:50:55 on buildings of that height was there any suggestion we'll come back to that later on uh but was there any suggestion that the applicant for building control approval on grenfell tower was relying on br 135 and the
00:51:08 was relying on br 135 and the test criteria under eight four one four to demonstrate compliance um i recall right so do i take it from that answer and the previous answer that when it came to the insulation you
00:51:20 that when it came to the insulation you thought
00:51:21 thought that the materials being used were of limited combustibility no uh
00:51:28 in fairness i should have asked for i realized now that i should have asked for a
00:51:35 for a full report but
00:51:38 at the time i considered the information that i looked up on as regards the celetex it was suitable for use on that
00:51:49 it was suitable for use on that or for a building of that height right well we'll come back to that but i just want to get your answer clear at this stage
00:51:57 stage uh did you think that the celetex rs5000 complied because it was of limited combustibility or complied because it was uh it had
00:52:10 or complied because it was uh it had passed an 8414 test in accordance with br135
00:52:14 br135 i considered it okay by by reading the information on the labc website
00:52:22 website i'm sorry that's not yeah quite an odds to my question did you think that the celetex complied because
00:52:28 because it it was a material of limited combustibility no or because it has passed a a bs eight four one four test in accordance with eight four one four
00:52:39 with eight four one four yes i see
00:52:44 yes i see so when you answered my question a moment ago whether the applicant for building controller was relying on br 135 and 8414 i think you said no is that right or is it wrong sorry um
00:52:55 is that right or is it wrong sorry um could you repeat that again please yes i i i you said i think an answer to an earlier question was whether there was a suggestion that the applicant for building control approval on
00:53:06 for building control approval on grenfell tower was relying on br 135 and an 8414 test yes what what is your evidence that they were relying on
00:53:18 that they were relying on on the material as a bs 8414 meeting the criteria for that and suitable for use on buildings over 18 meters right so
00:53:29 on buildings over 18 meters right so that was the route to comply compliance yeah not as you put it earlier adb yes sorry yes
00:53:39 yeah i see can we then move on a little bit
00:53:43 bit staying on this page to the question of external surfaces this is uh regulated by section 12.6 and it says the external surfaces of walls should
00:53:55 the external surfaces of walls should meet the provisions in diagram 40. we don't need the rest of that um if we go to diagram 40 it's a page 97
00:54:06 if we go to diagram 40 it's a page 97 and can we just look together at it slowly um here it is and if you look at e and it's divided up into five a b c d and e
00:54:16 and e and e is in the middle and it says any building
00:54:20 building yes and we can see the requirement for a building that is more than one meter from a relevant boundary here don't we yes uh with a part of it which is above 18 meters
00:54:31 18 meters yes and is it right that well did you understand there that the guidance says that above 18 meters the external wall surface classification should be class
00:54:42 surface classification should be class naught
00:54:43 naught national class yes or class b s3 d2 or better which is the european standard
00:54:50 standard yes you understood that yes yeah did you know
00:54:54 know at the time of your involvement in grenfell what those classifications meant
00:54:59 meant yes what did they mean well a cl a classo was a combination of two two tests uh fire propagation test
00:55:11 two two tests uh fire propagation test and the surface spread of flame test yes just to be clear that's that's are you able to give us the numbers uh bs476 part six and bought bs4 seven six part seven
00:55:24 bs4 seven six part seven yes and then from that they would uh give a as a stat a standard whether it meant that right and those are the tests
00:55:38 meant that right and those are the tests yes were you aware of the different ways in which national class naught could be achieved
00:55:45 only through that only through what i've just said
00:55:48 just said right um the reason i ask is because there is some further guidance in appendix a and i'd just ask you to look at that it's page 120 of approved document b
00:56:00 approved document b page 120. and i just want to look with you
00:56:03 you at append at term appendix a yeah uh not sure that's the right reference actually
00:56:14 um well i'll come back to that later on perhaps but but do you recall there it is actually it's there um it's there i want to
00:56:25 um it's there i want to uh
00:56:28 yes um if you look at um paragraph five you can see where the relevant tests are set out
00:56:37 set out and then the the european tests as well
00:56:42 do you also recall that there is a paragraph in approved document b which deals with linings
00:56:49 linings yes there is
00:56:52 and were you aware that class naught could be achieved if the material was of limited combustibility throughout oh yeah yes yes right okay we may
00:57:03 oh yeah yes yes right okay we may perhaps don't need to to find it if we go back to paragraph 12.6
00:57:10 12.6 we can see this is back to pages 95 and 96
00:57:16 that
00:57:21 there's a reference there to external surfaces of walls did you have a view at the time of what that meant what external surfaces of walls meant
00:57:38 the actual surface itself
00:57:44 and at the time of the grenfell tower refurbishment did you understand that that requirement under paragraph 12.6 applied to the rain screen the panels
00:57:56 applied to the rain screen the panels to the external surface when you say the external surface do you mean to the panels or to the external surface of the panels
00:58:02 panels the external surface of the panels thank you
00:58:07 you and if we go on please to paragraph section
00:58:10 section 12.7 on page 96 please
00:58:14 this deals with insulation materials stroke products and it says in a building with a story 18 meters or more above ground level any insulation product filler material not including gaskets sealants and
00:58:26 not including gaskets sealants and similar
00:58:26 similar etc used in the external wall construction should be of limited combustibility see appendix a this restriction does not apply to masonry cavity wall construction which complies with diagram
00:58:37 construction which complies with diagram 34 in section 9. at the time of grenfell tower and your involvement in it what did you understand the phrase limited combustibility to mean
00:58:49 that would be in accordance with the uh the test
00:58:53 the test i think it's uh i think it's either uh bs four seven six part four
00:58:59 four or bought bs four seven six part eleven ones for
00:59:04 ones for non-combustibility and the other ones for limited combustibility right and at the time of your work on grenfell tower did you want how did you understand that provision
00:59:15 how did you understand that provision 12.7 to apply to a rain screen cladding system
00:59:20 system well the insulation
00:59:30 would well the installations should be of limited compatibility as i referred previously i
00:59:42 referred previously i it said that it was suitable for use on buildings over over that height because it passed the the other test well the 8414 test yes yeah well as i say we'll come back to
00:59:54 yeah well as i say we'll come back to that you just mentioned insulation can i just ask you whether you agree that paragraph 12.7 also applies to products with an insulating core such as window infill panels for example
01:00:18 yes what about insulating materials which are packed behind window surrounds would that be covered by 12.7
01:00:32 sorry could you repeat yes did you think at the time of your involvement in the grenfell tower project that insulating materials
01:00:40 materials which are used to pack window surrounds or use behind window surrounds inside or outside
01:00:49 outside well that's a good question but window surrounds
01:00:52 surrounds yeah around the outside forming part of a rain screen cladding system
01:01:01 it would have to comply with that yes and what about insulating materials packed into cavities which are created by the overcladding system or scheme
01:01:18 yes
01:01:23 at the time of the refurbishment did you have any views or thoughts about the relationship between the requirements of paragraph 12.7 and a composite panel an acm
01:01:35 and a composite panel an acm composite panel with a pe core it's not something i considered at the time right
01:01:44 do you sorry was something you considered always not not uh as i say i i was concerned that it it's uh it's uh had the surface spread of flat
01:01:55 it's uh had the surface spread of flat flame
01:01:56 flame uh the the actual that it was class o uh i i didn't consider the the material inside at the time
01:02:07 the the material inside at the time to be a film material my understanding of film material at the time was
01:02:13 time was full of material to make good joints and and to to round round round the as i say to finish off the installation
01:02:24 as i say to finish off the installation as it were thank you was it your understanding at the time of your involvement in the grenfell tower refurbishment that when a building has a story with a floor level over 18
01:02:36 has a story with a floor level over 18 meters in height um the paragraph 12.7 as we can see here applies to the whole of the external wall construction and not only to those parts above 18
01:02:47 and not only to those parts above 18 meters
01:02:48 meters yes in that in this particular case yes yes
01:02:52 yes now finally on this topic i want to look very briefly if we can about what is said in adb about cavity barriers right can we look at page 96 at paragraph 12.8
01:03:04 page 96 at paragraph 12.8 under the heading cavity barriers just below where we were looking and it says cavity barriers should be provided in accordance with section 9. now we're going to come on to look at this later on in your evidence but at
01:03:15 this later on in your evidence but at this point i just want to ask you did you understand at the time that cavity barriers were required in the cladding
01:03:22 cladding yes and just breaking that up a bit first of all at the line of the compartment floors and walls yes and what about around openings such as windows
01:03:32 windows yes yes and what about at the junction of the top of the cladding and the crown of the building did you think i didn't at the top yes i didn't consider we had
01:03:43 at the top yes i didn't consider we had control of the crowd because it wasn't a concealed space
01:03:49 so you didn't have you say i didn't consider we had control of the crown yes because it wasn't a concealed space i'm not sure i followed that are you saying that that the crown was outside your remit as a building control
01:04:00 outside your remit as a building control officer
01:04:02 officer my my my understanding of the regulations was that cavity barriers were for concealed spaces right that i think i do understand but i
01:04:16 right that i think i do understand but i think the answer to my question that the crown itself wasn't outside your remit as a building control officer you were still required were you not to assess whether or not oh yes yes i did assess it sorry
01:04:27 did assess it sorry no that's fine yes but i think your the point you were making if i've understood you
01:04:32 you correctly was that there was no concealed space in the crown that would require a cavity barrier
01:04:39 barrier within the crown is that yes yes thank you
01:04:50 um mr anon in his statement this is rbk3028987 page 3 paragraph 12 says in that paragraph that rbkc building control
01:05:03 paragraph that rbkc building control was generally informed of any changes and updates to the building regulations and guidance by the labc is that correct yes as far as i can recall do you recall having access to a provider called ihs
01:05:17 having access to a provider called ihs yes were you aware that technical and other information concerning the building regulations was available online via ihs yes did you access information such as that yourself
01:05:28 that yourself from time to time yes when did you do so what would prompt you to do so if i wanted to look up a product sometimes i would do that
01:05:41 do you remember whether you did say for the for the general for the general purposes of the or specific purposes of the jet of the grenfell tower i can recall right did the information which came through the
01:05:53 which came through the ihs website include any information on fire safety
01:06:01 we would we would look at oh i would use it when i was looking up products or particular information i don't think we actually got uh as it were
01:06:12 uh as it were bulletins for once a better word right
01:06:17 did you do you recall using the ihs um information source to look up information on fire safety generally or specifically
01:06:29 on fire safety generally or specifically in relation to any query you had on the grenfell tower project not that i can recall right mr chairman we're going to move to a slightly different topic not a hugely
01:06:40 slightly different topic not a hugely different topic nonetheless a different one which i won't finish before a natural break it might be convenient to take a break now yes um
01:06:50 can we say 25 to 12 to get this table in time to get back to the room and yes break yes yes just hope we're going to take a break at this point um
01:07:01 this point um i hope you've been feeling holding up all right so far anyway thank you um we'll stop now and come back 25 to 12.
01:07:11 12. um please while you're out of the room don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it right all right if you go with the usher this she'll look after you
01:07:21 you thank you thank you very much
01:07:33 all right mr minute 25 to 12. thank you
01:26:19 but would you ask mr hoven to come back in please
01:26:40 right mr tobin ready to carry on yes good thank you yes thank you mr chairman mr hoban at the very start of your evidence you referred to your
01:26:48 to your police witness statement and a comma yeah and i've been helpfully taken by your legal representative to this comma at page 12. this is hob50219
01:27:00 at page 12. this is hob50219 i just want to clear that out of the way before we go back to your substantive evidence
01:27:05 evidence [Music]
01:27:06 [Music] can you be shown that document at page 12
01:27:11 12 and if you look at the second paragraph break you'll see a third paragraph which starts my role did not involve do you see that yes
01:27:21 yes and then there's a second sentence which says in relation to the fire safety comma risk assessment and management of the building comma i had no involvement in that can you help us which is the comma it's it's the come or
01:27:33 which is the comma it's it's the come or after
01:27:34 after safety fire safety yes and do you want the comma there or not there remove please right so that should read in relation to the fire safety risk assessment and management of the building correct
01:27:45 and management of the building correct that's correct correct thank you very much
01:27:47 much can i then go back to your um evidence um on
01:27:52 technical matters i want to turn to the question of what you knew about industry guidance please
01:27:59 please were you familiar with the detail of br135
01:28:02 br135 at the time of your involvement in the grenfell tower refurbishment i was aware of the documents but i hadn't read it substantially right you hadn't read it substantially
01:28:13 right you hadn't read it substantially um
01:28:14 um is br 135 something that you would normally be required to refer to regularly as part of your role or not no no not that was the first time i come across it
01:28:24 across it you say that was the first time when was the first time you came back what was it um sorry i i was well sorry i was aware of it being in the regulations right well is that because it's referred
01:28:36 right well is that because it's referred to
01:28:36 to in in in in the approved document which we looked at before yes what it is there's there's in in various approved documents it refers to various british standards
01:28:50 it refers to various british standards in relation to all many aspects of have you or had you ever read it at all
01:29:01 or had you ever read it at all no right no no i was aware of the document
01:29:06 document but i hadn't and right well let's see how we go
01:29:10 how we go with this so we could maybe we maybe we can take this a little bit more quickly then can i show you the document it's bre-405554 please now this is the second edition published
01:29:22 now this is the second edition published in 2003
01:29:24 in 2003 there was a third edition published in 2013 mr hogan this is the first page of it if we can go to page seven please
01:29:35 there's a reference to a building garnet caught irvine under figure one and um this publication followed the fire in that building in the summer of 1999
01:29:48 the summer of 1999 were you aware that there had been a tower block fire in scotland in 1999 which had given rise to the production of br135
01:29:59 amazing second edition i well i may have seen it in in the news on television right i see can we then go to
01:30:10 right i see can we then go to par page nine please page nine where the document explains the mechanism of rapid fire spread up a building and it explains it both in text and with a picture
01:30:21 picture yes um were you familiar perhaps from other reading with this picture or diagram and what it's showing no not at the time did you understand at
01:30:34 no not at the time did you understand at the time in the general proposition that cladding systems can create the opportunity for rapid unseen flames spread causing an unacceptable risk to the occupants
01:30:48 an unacceptable risk to the occupants i may have been at all i would have been aware of it but not uh it wasn't in the forefront of my my thoughts right did you know that the the there were principles
01:31:03 know that the the there were principles such as these which warned that external cladding systems offer a potential route for fire spread through multi-story buildings and the close attention should be paid to the installation of cavity barriers
01:31:15 to the installation of cavity barriers which would inhibit the spread of flame yes
01:31:18 yes and specifically do so in the event of a fire involving an external cladding system
01:31:23 system yes you did
01:31:27 were you aware in general and we could take this from page 10 paragraph three but under the heading cavities were you aware of the general principle shown by figure four
01:31:39 shown by figure four that flames become confined or restricted by entering cavities within the external cladding system they can become elongated as they seek oxygen and fuel to support the combustion process
01:31:56 i was sorry could you repeat the question well i can do it by reference to the text actually in the middle of the page
01:32:01 the page under the dot cavities the bullet point there yeah um which is under the heading interaction with external envelope in the third line it says if flames become
01:32:12 the third line it says if flames become confined or restricted by entering cavities within the external cladding system
01:32:16 system they will become elongated as they seek oxygen and fuel to support the combustion process this process can lead to flame extension of five to ten times that of the original flame lengths and this is in bold regardless of the
01:32:29 and this is in bold regardless of the materials used to line the cavities this may enable fire to spread rapidly unseen through the external cladding system
01:32:35 system if appropriate fire barriers have not been provided and there's a reference to figure four yes you knew the principle even if you didn't know the text yes you did right um then on this in the same vein
01:32:46 same vein same page um under paragraph five it refers to the fire service intervention and it says where the external cladding system is not significantly contributing to the
01:32:58 is not significantly contributing to the spread of fire from one story to the uh then intervention by emergency services should prevent continued fire propagation by way of the building envelope
01:33:09 building envelope however it says and this is the important bit where the external cladding system is is contributing to the fire propagation rate the potential exists for the fire to affect multiple stories simultaneously thus making firefighting
01:33:21 simultaneously thus making firefighting more difficult again although you didn't read the text of this at the time were you aware of that as a general principle
01:33:29 by seeing uh fires on the news yes by seeing fires on the news can you can you help me with that when did you first see
01:33:38 first see fires on the news that you're well one one that comes to mind was the dubai fire
01:33:45 fire now they say they do by far in fact there was at least one there were two fires 2015. were you aware of earlier cladding fires on high-rise buildings
01:33:56 on high-rise buildings uh yes there were some in the uae in 2012
01:34:01 2012 to 13. were you aware of those do you think at the time ah they've been on the news yes they've been on the news did you see those
01:34:11 those uh i i couldn't i couldn't say i would i would expect myself to have seen those all right in the news okay we'll come back to some specific examples
01:34:22 back to some specific examples later on in your evidence but i'll make the answer for this purpose can we just move on to page 17 of this document please and i to just want to look with you at
01:34:33 and i to just want to look with you at this
01:34:33 this um section which says system specific details ventilated cavities and in the third paragraph down there it says once the fire is within the cavity it may propagate unseen through the
01:34:44 it may propagate unseen through the system if adequate fire barriers are not employed
01:34:47 employed this may result in significant risk of system collapse or fire breakout at significant distances from the fire origin now again were you aware of that as a general principle
01:34:58 aware of that as a general principle even if not the specifics of this yes yes yes and then under the heading same page
01:35:03 page of performance of materials in fire insulation it says the performance of insulating material when subjected to this type of fire scenario has been outlined in the previous section typically non-combustible
01:35:16 section typically non-combustible materials are used in these systems as it is difficult to prevent fire entering the cavity and spreading through the insulating material again same question mr hogan were you aware of that as a general principle if not the text
01:35:27 not the text yes and then at the bottom of page 17 under the heading external panel it says materials used for external panels can vary from non-combustible through to combustible and then there's
01:35:39 through to combustible and then there's a first bullet point non-combustible materials and materials of limited combustibility and that's a heading as defined in tables a6 and a7 of approved document b
01:35:50 tables a6 and a7 of approved document b and then it says typically cementitious based products through to natural products such as stone veneers and coated metal panels and then if you look at the next page in the um last two sentences
01:36:03 the um last two sentences it says metal panels such as aluminium may fall from there we haven't caught up with you mr millet
01:36:14 do you see there's four lines up from the end of that it says metal panels such as aluminium may fall from the system if the strength of the fixings is affected by the local fire source they may also melt generating molten
01:36:26 they may also melt generating molten metal debris if exposed directly to the sustained flame envelope again were you familiar with that as a principle
01:36:32 principle if not the text of the specif of this particular guidance document not at the time right
01:36:42 now that's the 2003 edition as i said before there was an edition published in 2013 and that's at cel403364
01:36:55 and that's at cel403364 i just want to identify one or two further things in this document which was a revision
01:37:03 did just to be clear i think you said you didn't read this document before project or at the time can we just jump to page 11 and look at paragraph 2.1 in the third
01:37:15 and look at paragraph 2.1 in the third paragraph down it says that there are potentially conflicting requirements
01:37:25 you still you see that it says these potentially conflicting requirements are highlighted in the area of innovative materials and designs which are being driven by the need to construct more energy efficient and sustainable buildings
01:37:36 sustainable buildings in order to meet these design challenges the range of new and innovative materials and designs of systems being offered
01:37:41 offered as potential solutions has also increased the volumes of potentially combustible materials being used in external cladding applications so is that something i know you weren't
01:37:53 so is that something i know you weren't aware of the text of at the time but is that a principle or view understanding that you were aware it's not something i considered at the time right
01:38:05 and then looking at page 13 if we can this is in the context of external cladding systems offering a root for fire spread through multi-story buildings
01:38:16 buildings and the need for cavity barriers similarly to what we saw in the 2003 edition
01:38:21 edition in paragraph 3.3.2 on that page it says this
01:38:25 this cavities cavities may be incorporated within an external cladding system or may be formed by the delamination or differential movement of the system in a fire
01:38:35 fire if flames become confined or restricted by entering cavities within the external cladding system they will become elongated as they seek oxygen and fuel to support the combustion process and it it says the same thing as
01:38:47 process and it it says the same thing as the 2003
01:38:48 the 2003 edition so again were you aware of that principle at this time this is 2013 still being very much a live principle could you go through that again sorry yes of course right it's about cavity
01:39:00 yes of course right it's about cavity barriers yes i was aware that cavity barriers needed to be provided yes
01:39:06 yes and the reason they did so is because if flames become confined or restricted by entering into cavities in the external cladding system they'll become elongated as they seek oxygen and fuel to support the combustion process
01:39:17 to support the combustion process that's why they're important yes um yes [Applause]
01:39:28 [Applause] if you go straight on to page 22 let's look at paragraph 6.4
01:39:37 [Applause] well actually sorry can we just move back page 19 i'm sorry i skipped over too fast
01:39:41 too fast page 19 is a paragraph i just want to look at with you this is under the heading of 6.3 system specific details rendered systems and then on the right hand side of the page
01:39:52 then on the right hand side of the page under 6.3 fire barriers it says if if fire enters a void in the system whether that void is created by a fire or is part of an existing design
01:40:04 fire or is part of an existing design and the insulation is exposed to the fire source any combustible material present may become involved and there is potential for the fire to propagate throughout the system if adequate fire barriers are not
01:40:15 if adequate fire barriers are not installed
01:40:16 installed since the cavity is likely to be present behind the insulation boards in lfs it's important that this potential is recognized and adequate fire stopping is provided using fire barriers or fast stopping details
01:40:28 barriers or fast stopping details to maintain the system's stability in the case of fire is that something you were alive to say with cavity barriers yes yes and then if we turn to page
01:40:39 then if we turn to page 19 uh pay at paragraph 6.3.4 i think this is the next page actually
01:40:54 uh
01:41:00 i think in fact i don't need that i just go straight to page 22. paragraph 6.4 probably quicker ventilated cavity systems and in the second paragraph uh there it says if the fire is able to
01:41:12 uh there it says if the fire is able to enter the cavity it may propagate unseen through the system if adequate fire barriers are not employed
01:41:18 employed this may result in significant risk of system collapse or in the fire breaking out at significant distances from its origin um again was that something you were aware of at the time regards cavity
01:41:29 aware of at the time regards cavity barriers breaking up yes yes and it goes on at the bottom of that sub-paragraph to say in order to counter the possibility of rapid fire spread and potential system collapse the design and selection of materials used to
01:41:40 and selection of materials used to construct these systems should address these issues including the provision of fire barriers um again that you you took it from that did you
01:41:51 did you fire barriers yes and then there are a number of other parts of this which say very much the same thing um but if we can look at 6.4.1 performance of materials and fire
01:42:02 performance of materials and fire insulation as it can be difficult to prevent fire entering the cavity and spreading in these systems the selection of the insulation materials used and the design of the fire barriers to close these cavities are particularly
01:42:13 close these cavities are particularly important same question again mr hogan even though you didn't read this text at the time were you aware that that was a generally applicable principle yes yeah and and then um
01:42:24 yeah and and then um if we look at 6.4.1 uh lower down over the column to the last
01:42:31 last paragraph just above 6.4.2 it says do you see it says combustible panels are typically based on vinyl or glass reinforced plastic although various new products are being
01:42:42 although various new products are being developed in this area some of which also contain insulation materials these products generally have good surface spread of flame characteristics to prevent rapid fire spread across the surface of the system but
01:42:54 across the surface of the system but once the panels become involved in the fire they have the potential to generate falling debris add to the overall fire load and provide a route
01:43:03 a route for fire to propagate up the outside of the building that's that's an important paragraph for our purposes was that a principle that you understood and were aware of at
01:43:14 that you understood and were aware of at the time not at the time right
01:43:23 do you agree that had you read this this document
01:43:26 document which to be clear is a 2013 edition you would have understood that cladding systems can create the opportunity for rapid unseen fire spread causing an unacceptable risk of occupation fire to
01:43:37 unacceptable risk of occupation fire to the occupants and that an external cladding system offered a potential route for fire spread through multi-storey buildings and the close attention should be paid to the installation of cavity barriers
01:43:49 to the installation of cavity barriers to inhibit the spread of flame yes and particularly in the in the event of a fire involving the external cladding system itself yes yes and that meant
01:44:01 yes yes and that meant that you would have understood that particular attention should be paid to the selection of insulation materials as installation the actual installation material itself yes yes
01:44:14 installation material itself yes yes can i now turn then to a different document
01:44:17 document or different subject which is the bca guidance are you familiar with the building control alliance as a body i was aware of it right now were you aware
01:44:28 aware that the building control alliance or bca issued guidance documents for the construction industry no at the time i wasn't you weren't aware right
01:44:37 right even though it's an alliance or association directly designed to assist and support building control i i read about it in relation to uh i mentioned the performance standards
01:44:49 uh i mentioned the performance standards it brings up a number of bodies uh on on that but my principal uh reference bodies were the lhbc and and the government's
01:45:03 and and the government's body now we've got you down here saying lhbc do you mean labc labc as there's the nhbc as well national house building council you're
01:45:15 national house building council you're not referring to that in there no no so to be clear l abc yeah local authority building rights wrong okay now um can we look then and this may not take long if you weren't familiar with it um a guidance note
01:45:28 familiar with it um a guidance note produced by the bca technical guidance note 18 this is at cep3057294 please
01:45:44 cep3057294 please uh and this is as i say bca technical guidance note 18 and it's issue naught uh june 2014 use of combustible cladding materials on residential buildings
01:45:56 residential buildings have you ever seen this document before i have since the fire right but not before
01:46:02 before not before the right did you know about its existence before the fire even though you no no
01:46:10 right did you know at all that the bca published technical guidance notes for the benefit of its members in the construction industry no to promote you did not at the time
01:46:38 can i then just take you into um the chunk of this first page which deals with key issues
01:46:51 and i just want to show you
01:46:56 a paragraph the last paragraph a surface spread of flame classification which says it doesn't infer any resistance to combustibility it is solely a measure of the spread of
01:47:08 it is solely a measure of the spread of flame across the surface did you um did you understand that at the time
01:47:16 across the surface yes yes
01:47:21 and uh if you go on to uh the first bullet point under there it says the thermo setting it says thermosetting insulins
01:47:33 thermosetting insulins rigid polyurethane foam boards do not meet the limited combustibility requirements of adb2 table a7 and so should not be accepted as meeting adb2 paragraph 12.7 however if they are included as part of
01:47:46 however if they are included as part of a cladding system being tested to br 135 and bs 8414 the complete assembly may ultimately prove to be acceptable and um were you aware of that
01:47:59 and um were you aware of that as a general principle or no guidance you weren't right were you aware in particular that thermosetting insulins like pir don't meet or didn't meet the limited
01:48:11 don't meet or didn't meet the limited combustibility requirements of adv no you weren't right
01:48:24 can we go then to the june 2015 version of this document which is cel402347 this is issue one
01:48:39 do i take it from your earlier answers that you weren't familiar with this document at the time of grenfell either no right
01:48:48 can i then turn to cwct have you ever heard of the center for windows and cladding technology mr hogan since the fire yes you've never heard of it before the fire no
01:49:00 it before the fire no were you i suppose it would follow that you therefore weren't aware that the cwct
01:49:04 cwct also produced technical guidance relevant to the far performance of curtain walls and rain screen systems no i wasn't somewhere right did you ever refer to any cwct guidance work at all
01:49:17 refer to any cwct guidance work at all uh on in your work on grenfell no i never used it at all on any right building
01:49:26 were you not aware that the cwct standard was specifically provided for in the nbs specification for grenfell tower i i don't believe i actually saw that document
01:49:38 document really can we then uh turn to your second statement please if you go to that second statement and look at page 19
01:49:52 uh we go to paragraph 48 and this is under the heading inspections
01:50:05 and you say there i am not aware of any formal written policy by rbkc on the subject
01:50:11 subject however i am aware that the building control performance standards july 2014 produced by the department for communities and local government states that the scope and frequency of
01:50:22 states that the scope and frequency of inspections should be determined and incorporated in a formal written plan
01:50:26 plan and just for completeness you say i decided i would endeavor to conduct site visits once a month i made this decision based on the scope of the project i want to talk i want to talk a little bit with you about the standards if we
01:50:37 bit with you about the standards if we can um
01:50:38 can um those standards i think were first published in 2006 yes yes they were revised in july 2014. yes yes yes um when they were revised in
01:50:49 yes yes yes um when they were revised in july 2014 do you remember being alerted to that
01:50:51 to that revision uh not from works i i don't believe when
01:51:00 when it first came out we had a detailed meeting about about those standards in the office but i don't recall whether we had a detailed meeting when
01:51:13 whether we had a detailed meeting when those
01:51:14 those when the second amendment came out i see so yes in 2006 when they first came out yeah we had a and there was uh mr jackson produced a
01:51:25 and there was uh mr jackson produced a document
01:51:26 document as a as a
01:51:29 as a as a subsequently art upon those that that document being produced so just to i'm clear you say mr jackson produced a document yes that's in 2006 is it when those
01:51:42 yes that's in 2006 is it when those standards were first promulgated yes what about in 2014 i don't recall seeing any
01:51:47 any any uh any revised document in the office at that time did you know that there had been a revision yes you didn't you didn't look at it i i did look at it
01:52:00 you didn't look at it i i did look at it you did look at it yes in 2014 yes i see uh
01:52:07 i see uh in carrying out your role as building control officer on the grenfell tower project did you have in mind the standards set out in the building control performance standards as revised in july 2014
01:52:28 i think generally they were the same i i as i say i i re i i re we we had detailed uh discussions and we had as i say there
01:52:39 uh discussions and we had as i say there was a document uh i was aware as i say the the 14 amendment
01:52:44 amendment uh i can't i can't say how much detail i went into
01:52:49 went into but i was aware of the documents yes i follow well let's be a little bit more specific can we look at the 2014 standards themselves now they are at clg one three zero
01:53:00 they are at clg one three zero six eight one four
01:53:08 and that's the first page and you can see the date at the bottom july 2014 published by the building control performance standards advisory group will be part of the dclg at the time
01:53:20 will be part of the dclg at the time and if you go to page two sorry page four internal page two of this document page 4 of the document on the screen you can see the introduction there and in the penultimate paragraph on that
01:53:33 and in the penultimate paragraph on that page
01:53:34 page it says in the last sentence the standards and supporting guidance establish the level of performance considered as a minimum in carrying out those tasks so that a building control body's duties and
01:53:46 building control body's duties and responsibilities under the legislation are adequately discharged so did you understand that this document was essentially setting out the minimum standard
01:53:57 standard for building control officers to discharge their statutory functions
01:54:03 it's not something that strikes me immediately but obviously it says it there
01:54:08 there right can we go on to page 11 then
01:54:14 this is standard three consultation and the standard is there in the green box building control bodies shall undertake all statutory consultations in a timely manner and the observations of consulting
01:54:25 and the observations of consulting should be communicated in writing to the clients
01:54:28 clients it should also consider the benefit of undertaking additional consultation it shall wear appropriate cooperate in an integrated approach to consensus relevant
01:54:36 relevant to development control and just breaking that down a bit if we can statutory consultation did that include consultation with for example the fire authority in this case the alpha epa correct and it says an integrated
01:54:48 correct and it says an integrated approach to consensus relevant to development control would that be planning permission or plan the planning department sorry um it's the last part of the
01:55:01 sorry um it's the last part of the second sentence third sentence i'm saying sorry
01:55:08 in the green box it shall wear appropriate cooperate an integrated approach to consents relevant to development control would that be planning permission uh yes it would uh right
01:55:21 yes it would uh right although it doesn't say planning development control no it says development control well um i know you perhaps weren't familiar with this
01:55:29 this specific document uh and it's revised form but
01:55:34 form but in let me try it this way in in your experience as it stood in the years from 2013 onwards would the planning department
01:55:46 onwards would the planning department provide information to building control about a development
01:55:52 only if they had a specific question on on a on a matter right what about in circumstances where an application was made to the planning department for approval of a material
01:56:04 department for approval of a material to be used on the outside of a high-rise building no that wouldn't come to the building control no no so does that mean that there wasn't an integrated approach to consent relevant
01:56:15 integrated approach to consent relevant to development control yes right
01:56:22 and to be specific about this as we know from
01:56:26 from the record in relation to the grenfell tower refurbishment if the planning department at rbkc had been told
01:56:33 been told that acm panels were to be used on grenfell tower as a high-rise residential building would that be the sort of information that should be shared
01:56:44 that should be shared back with building control by the planning department
01:56:51 i would i would say that's a matter for the planners to decide whether it's their their posit policy to do that
01:56:59 do that but in your position as a building control officer in respect of a development or refurbishment over which you had building control responsibilities would
01:57:11 building control responsibilities would you expect rbkc's planning department to alert you to any
01:57:17 to any design or planning matters that such as the application of acm on the exterior of a high-rise building that
01:57:27 that would be something which would fall within building controls remit so that you could have an integrated approach and it would it would yes it would it
01:57:38 and it would it would yes it would it would
01:57:41 you'd expect it to be shared with you would you
01:57:45 would you yes can we look on then to standard five which is on page 13. and we can see there again in the green box which is where we see these standards and this is under the heading
01:57:56 standards and this is under the heading assessment of plans
01:58:00 if you just look at the green box itself just read what's in there take a moment to do that
01:58:08 and i just want to ask you to look at the guidance underneath it
01:58:12 um if you look at the first paragraph under the guidance
01:58:19 sitting under the green box it says the purpose of plan assessment and design appraisal is to assist the process of achieving
01:58:25 achieving compliance of building work with the building regulations accordingly contributions of building regulations identified in drawings should be communicated in writing to the designer a written opinion should be issued on all proposals submitted for
01:58:37 issued on all proposals submitted for assessment yes would that be in your understanding a formal opinion or would advice by email suffice in order to comply with the standard it could be
01:58:48 could be either either looking down at the fourth paragraph it says if plans are passed or approved subject to conditions a schedule written in clear and unambiguous terms outlining the
01:58:59 unambiguous terms outlining the necessary modifications and or of the further plans or information required to demonstrate compliance should be issued to the client so does that mean that a record of the condition should be made and kept yes now the guidance also says that
01:59:12 yes now the guidance also says that records of the plan assessment process should be kept that's is that not just a record of the formal decision but a record of the building control officer's review of the plans themselves
01:59:31 of the plans themselves uh yes yes yes and in terms of record keeping at rbkc we know there was a computer system called accolade yes a-c-o-l-a-i-d
01:59:42 called accolade yes a-c-o-l-a-i-d um how in general terms was that used for managing full plans applications at the time of the grenfell tower project and specifically 2012 to 14 in this case
01:59:54 and specifically 2012 to 14 in this case when an application came in it was it was
02:00:02 assessed by a manager whether it was a valid application or not and then it was sent to the business support group to to put on the system
02:00:16 to to put on the system and then a file would be produced and then it would come to the surveyor
02:00:28 and then then uh an assessment of of the plans would be would be done there may be discussions and meetings
02:00:38 in the course of of that particular period i see and would all that be done through the accolade systems
02:00:46 systems all these communications would be on the accolade system ah that i'm not certain of right how did you decide or did
02:00:57 how did you decide or did the building control department decide what went on to accolade and what didn't
02:01:08 what went on to accolade and what didn't as regards what what particular things well as regards specifically managing full plans applications
02:01:22 full plans applications well i i know they would enter the details of the agent that would be done by business support when the application came in as regards what information came in
02:01:35 as regards what information came in whether that was that would be a a business support uh matter right um i'm not quite sure that's really answered my question let's see let's try a different way accolade is an
02:01:47 a different way accolade is an information system yes um who decided what should go on to it or what shouldn't go on to it that would be a manager well we we would
02:02:00 that would be a manager well we we would we would uh as a surveyor put information relating to inspections uh decision notices would be
02:02:11 inspections uh decision notices would be processed by business support and the actual application itself would be put on the system once it was validated by by a manager i see now can we look at
02:02:23 by a manager i see now can we look at your second witness statement please and i want to go to pay to paragraph 18d
02:02:41 and there we see
02:02:45 there on page six did you run a building control tracker for grenfell tower no i used a plan check record sheet instead you say
02:02:52 you say yes what kind of matters would you record on the plan check record sheet so it's been a while since i've done well
02:03:12 what i looked at uh uh
02:03:18 i haven't got that form in in front of me anymore so it was a form that had been adopted uh some years previously
02:03:30 adopted uh some years previously so you would be considering uh the application under under uh the various approved documents right and uh i don't know whether it would
02:03:40 would would would go on about consultations or not
02:03:46 because as i said i i don't have that form to hand but uh as regards consultations i would send all all the proposals to
02:03:58 all all the proposals to the fire regulation group and they would uh consider the application what does a plan check record sheet look like just you know an a4 sheet divided into
02:04:11 an a4 sheet divided into the various uh elements as i say a structure b fire uh c c
02:04:22 uh c c uh damp proofing and right contamination and it was it a record of what you looked at or was it a record of a plan you had to look at things it would be of of the actual application
02:04:33 it would be of of the actual application itself
02:04:33 itself i see and where did you keep the plan check record sheet that would be far in the file um is it kept on computer or handwritten or handwritten i see now
02:04:45 handwritten or handwritten i see now the inquiry doesn't have a copy of your planchet record sheet for the grenfell tower refurbishment do you remember whether it was retained on the hard copy file or what might have happened to it i
02:04:56 or what might have happened to it i don't know now you've also referred in your in your statement uh to uh keeping records in a notebook was that your a3 notebook yes i would have a number of these books
02:05:08 yes i would have a number of these books i would use those did you ever transfer the notes in your notebook onto the accolade system i did although there are from what i've seen there's some notes
02:05:20 from what i've seen there's some notes missing
02:05:21 missing of both myself and and colleagues right um can you explain why that might be
02:05:29 be i i can't uh i as i said i don't know i would generally put the notes in either on the day or a few days later
02:05:41 either on the day or a few days later right
02:05:41 right some sometimes uh no notes if you didn't if you didn't tick the box
02:05:50 the box and went on to another another job it may not retain them but i i certainly know that i'd i did more visits than what's reflected on
02:06:03 more visits than what's reflected on accolades indeed we're going to come to that in detail later in your evidence but
02:06:07 but when you say um from what you've seen there's notes missing both myself and colleagues does that mean that you think they're missing from the accolade system because you didn't put them in
02:06:18 system because you didn't put them in i at the time i i thought i put all my nets in right but did you have a practice of
02:06:29 but did you have a practice of entering your handwritten notes into the all the content of those notes into the accolade system uh yes i would as i say do if i had time on that day or
02:06:42 as i say do if i had time on that day or sometimes i would come in at weekends to do my notes right
02:06:49 do you remember any times when you let that practice lapse and failed to enter your notes onto the accolade system
02:07:00 not that i'm aware uh as i say uh there was a lot going on out outside side work at the time so i don't know whether
02:07:11 whether uh there could have been events where i i i didn't but generally i was
02:07:19 i was very good because what i would do i would get my book and and put a line through the notes as i
02:07:25 i as i uh right as i put them on but i think what you're telling us is that it's possible at this time that some notes on some occasions may not have been transferred to the accolade file
02:07:36 file maybe i mean as i say it's not it's not it's not consistent with the way that i would do to work did you mark up drawings or other documents on the physical file yes so well
02:07:48 on the physical file yes so well what i would do when i was reviewing a drawing
02:07:52 drawing pardon me i would actually initial and date
02:07:56 date when i looked at it and then i would highlight any any anything that would concern me right let's just look at what you say in your second statement about that it's page eight please
02:08:07 eight please if we can look at paragraph 27 you say there
02:08:10 there um at the very top of the page perhaps we just look at the question you're answering at the bottom of the previous page first of all did you the question is did you review the proposed design
02:08:22 you review the proposed design for the exterior cladding on the tower if so when did you do that and where is that recorded and then if we can go to the top of page eight you say yes i did i would have recorded this either on my plan check record sheet or
02:08:33 either on my plan check record sheet or my physical diary or other notes kept on file i just want to ask you about the other notes kept on fire
02:08:39 fire what are those uh if i went to um i remember going to a meeting on in the first initial meet
02:08:51 on in the first initial meet meeting and i made made certain notes of that meeting and kept that on on file made my own own notes of
02:09:04 made my own own notes of of things that were discussed right i i have asked from for some minutes unfortunately uh would appear that no minutes were done at that meeting
02:09:15 done at that meeting and why were those not transferred to the accolade system you couldn't uh it you couldn't accolade was for site visits uh
02:09:26 accolade was for site visits uh as i say it wasn't uh it wasn't for private
02:09:31 private notes of meetings i followed that um if you also look at pay on in the statement to page 10 you can see paragraph 33 e there
02:09:44 you refer to um
02:09:50 your a3 notebook yeah um
02:09:58 and you or you say that rb casey cannot locate my notebook was that a number of notebooks as i say
02:10:09 was that a number of notebooks as i say it would be as i filled in one get another yes i think you also had a physical diary was that
02:10:16 that was that different from your notebook or was that the notebook uh i i had that and i obviously had my outlook calendar and there was
02:10:25 there was uh there was a system where we would have to put on our of it all surveyors had to put on their their
02:10:32 their daily visits so that uh people were aware where people were
02:10:41 yes uh
02:10:45 so in total just so that we're all clear about what where you would record things so we've got um accolade yes you've got your outlook diary
02:10:57 your outlook diary yes we've got a physical diary yes i think we've also got your notebook you've referred to a plan check record sheet and then the file itself
02:11:06 itself those are that's have i missed anything out
02:11:09 out could you go over those again um first so there is accolade yes yes we've got your outlook diary
02:11:20 yes yes we've got your outlook diary outlook calendar yes calendar yeah then we've got your physical diary which you referred to a moment ago then there's the notebook the a3 notebook you've referenced books you've referred to there's the
02:11:31 books you've referred to there's the plan check record sheet which we discussed earlier for looking at applications and then finally the file itself the physical file well the the plan check would be in the file
02:11:43 the the plan check would be in the file i follow yeah other than that were there any other places where you would record discussions or your findings or inspections no i can't can't think of any other right can we then go back
02:11:54 then go back to the standards we were looking at earlier on um which we'll find at clg this is the july 2014 edition clg one three zero six eight one four
02:12:07 clg one three zero six eight one four please
02:12:08 please and go to page fifteen
02:12:16 now this relates to site visits site inspections as you can see and we're going to be going through your site inspections uh on the grenfell tower project in due course in a lot of detail but just looking at this standards you can
02:12:28 just looking at this standards you can see
02:12:28 see that it says that standards need to be adequate and that sufficient records are kept
02:12:33 kept you see that i've summarized it perhaps um a little bit quickly but that's the effect of the green box um and if we look at page 16 under inspection
02:12:44 inspection frequency um you can see uh the little mini heading there just below the bullet points halfway down the page
02:12:53 page it says the scope and frequency of inspection should be determined and incorporated in a formal written plan you see that yes um do you remember whether that was done as
02:13:04 do you remember whether that was done as a matter of course no
02:13:07 within the building control department overall
02:13:11 overall i don't believe it was it wasn't right do you know why it wasn't
02:13:18 uh
02:13:22 it just wasn't wasn't wasn't done that no no but do you know why no no did you ever raise this issue with john jackson or john allen or anybody else within the rbkc building
02:13:34 else within the rbkc building controlled now it was just it was the way that was done in the office right
02:13:41 so without a formal written plan how would you go about planning the scope and frequency of inspections
02:13:51 generally as i say i decided for that particular job that i would visit every every month right as as regards other other jobs it
02:14:02 right as as regards other other jobs it would depend on on uh
02:14:06 what was going on the standard of
02:14:10 workmanship um and you know uh generally what the standard uh the builder or or or the type of work that was going on at the time because
02:14:23 that was going on at the time because again with with uh rebasements uh there'd be a a bigger frequency because you're looking at structural matters
02:14:35 looking at structural matters and you decided on once a month at the start of the project did you review that constantly did you review the sufficiency of once a month constantly through the life of the project uh
02:14:47 project uh i did review it in relation to i i got an addition where i i got additional uh work wing when colleagues left uh left the department i actually got
02:14:59 uh left the department i actually got their areas a couple of my my colleagues uh one left in or not left she she went to go and work in the planning department in
02:15:11 department in i think it was 2014. so the number of jobs that i was dealing with
02:15:19 with increased so i was having to look after more jobs and it would as i say depend on on on on whether there was site
02:15:30 on on on whether there was site supervision what the builders were like but um sorry i understand that that might be an exception but once you've fixed a frequency of visits for a particular project am i right in
02:15:41 for a particular project am i right in thinking that in general you didn't go back and review that oh yes you did yes i would depending on what was going on and would anybody supervise your uh initial assessment of the
02:15:53 your uh initial assessment of the frequency of visits required for a project no they were just left your own devices were you correct
02:16:02 right um i think it would follow then from what you've told us before that the next paragraph down which says all sites should be inspected frequently
02:16:14 should be inspected frequently and gives a frequency that's suggested there
02:16:18 there that wasn't guidance adopted generally within rbkc was it no it wasn't and can we then turn to a different topic which is your knowledge of high-rise products um also high-rise buildings and relevant
02:16:31 um also high-rise buildings and relevant products
02:16:32 products in you if we look at your first statement please which is um rbk3033934 page 10
02:16:42 i wanted just to look at paragraph 99 on that page and you say there
02:16:49 in the fourth line from the end at the time of the grenfell refurbishment i had approximately 35 years experience and had previously overseen high-rise projects under the london building act and
02:16:59 and constitu and constructional bylaws in force at the time
02:17:05 um in general do you remember when those projects took place from time to time sorry um i
02:17:17 from time to time sorry um i dealt with sort of flat refurbishments and
02:17:20 and refurbishments of uh hotels from time to time uh i couldn't give you exact dates
02:17:31 because it would so i don't actually recall
02:17:35 recall at any any particular time but when i was working in chelsea prior to moving up to the top of the borough in 1998
02:17:47 borough in 1998 i do recall dealing with some refurbishments of some hotel rooms in on a
02:17:58 hotel rooms in on a hotel in slud in sloane street i also did when i moved up to uh the notting hill gate area i dealt with a
02:18:10 with a a couple of flat refurbishments in on uh tower blocking in uh in notting hill right as i say the dates like right
02:18:24 as i say the dates like right in relation to the high-rise projects that you identify in this part of your first statement did any of those involve the re-cladding or over-cladding of a high-rise residential tower no
02:18:38 of a high-rise residential tower no so would would it follow from that that the grenfell tower refurbishment was the first time as a building control officer you had come across the overcladding of an existing and
02:18:50 the overcladding of an existing and occupied high-rise residential building yes right
02:19:03 coming back to the topic of previous high-rise
02:19:07 high-rise fires we discussed garnet court in scotland
02:19:10 scotland irvine in 1999. um were you aware of a fire early on in that decade in 1991 at nosley heights
02:19:22 in 1991 at nosley heights yes in the news i remember all right
02:19:30 so sorry to hesitate i believe i would have seen it in the news at that time right in the early 1990s yes yes um what about the fire in a building
02:19:42 um what about the fire in a building called the mermails tower in ruby in france in 2012 that that i don't recall right what about the fire in the woosheen golden suites in busan south korea in
02:19:54 golden suites in busan south korea in 2010
02:19:56 2010 that again doesn't right now we discussed earlier very briefly fires in dubai let's just take this in in stages do you recall
02:20:08 recall a spate of fires in high-rise buildings in the uae the united arab emirates in the period 2012 to 2013 particularly in sharjah and in dubai i
02:20:20 particularly in sharjah and in dubai i do
02:20:21 do recall uh seeing
02:20:26 as i say what one particular one whether were they close together uh in time yes yes geographically yes two are in dubai
02:20:37 yes geographically yes two are in dubai yeah but in time yes and they were carried on the bbc news yes as i say some of them were so you remember those yes do you also remember
02:20:48 yes do you also remember um further fires in dubai in 2015 at uh the address downtown hotel and the torch residential building that that doesn't come to mind right
02:21:00 that that doesn't come to mind right going back then to the fires in the uae that you became aware of in 2012 to 13 did that
02:21:06 did that tell you anything about the risks of external fire spread on high-rise buildings
02:21:11 buildings you mentioned earlier that it might have done i just wanted yeah yes what did it tell you do you think um i as i say uh as regards that i i was
02:21:23 uh as regards that i i was the thing that came to mind was uh what were their regulations over there right and that came to mind did it did did you
02:21:32 did you investigate that no was there any discussion internally at rb gacy building control department about the fire
02:21:40 do you remember seeing any uh industry or perhaps internal circulars or any news or industry gossip even about the impact of those fires and what you learned or should learn from
02:21:52 what you learned or should learn from them
02:21:52 them no do you remember a fire in southwark in 2009 in a building called lacanal house yes did you know about that fire at the
02:22:03 yes did you know about that fire at the time it happened summer of 2009. yes you did and from that far did you gain any understanding of how fire can spread up the exterior of a build of a building
02:22:16 i thought oh sorry
02:22:21 i saw that it went up there outside but i i
02:22:24 i i i i didn't know whether at all the thing that comes to mind with that particular fire was
02:22:30 fire was the fire stopping uh internally right did you did that cause you that far to look
02:22:37 look at the building regulations and in particular uh to prove document b not not at that time
02:22:44 time i i would look at fire stopping uh as part of my duties right
02:22:53 did it did the fire itself alert you to the dangers of um rain screen cladding systems no
02:23:04 rain screen cladding systems no can i then turn to a different topic which is the role of building control generally
02:23:10 generally first do you agree that the role of a building controlled body is to check for compliance with the requirements of the building act and the building regulations yes and that's their only
02:23:21 that's their only requirement that their only role is to ensure compliance to check and insure for compliance
02:23:29 we did have many other duties yeah well let me be a bit more specific do you accept that a building control body
02:23:37 body has no role to play in the design correct
02:23:40 correct right and its role is to check submitted proposals
02:23:43 proposals yes and to inspect works on site to ensure compliance yes with the statutory requirements and guidance yes yes do you also agree that it's ultimately
02:23:54 do you also agree that it's ultimately for those designing and carrying out building works to ensure that the building regulations are complied with yes and and the building control approval isn't conclusive evidence that the building regulations have been
02:24:06 that the building regulations have been complied with but could you could you repeal yes was it your understanding that the effect of building control approval being given wasn't as it were conclusive evidence yeah the building regulations have been
02:24:17 yeah the building regulations have been completed
02:24:19 i'm going to put a number of propositions to you and i want to know whether you agree with them a local authority building control surveyor is required to take such steps as are reasonable to enable him or her to be satisfied
02:24:32 to enable him or her to be satisfied within the limits of professional skill and care that the applicable aspects of the building regulations are complied with yes yes do you agree that a building control
02:24:44 do you agree that a building control body's ability to do its job properly depends in part on the quality of the information provided to it that's one other one
02:24:55 and do you agree that where there are gaps or contradictions in the information which is submitted to it a building control body should follow up with questions and investigations
02:25:06 up with questions and investigations of the applicant yes do you also agree that in exercising reasonable skill and care
02:25:15 care that would include seeking missing or incomplete information from the applicant
02:25:21 yes yes now if he if well uh i would say that if if he didn't know the information himself yes investigation
02:25:33 himself yes investigation now i don't know how closely you've been following the evidence in this part of the inquiry mr hoban but i'll see if i can summarize the point i want to put to you i succinctly but i hope also fairly
02:25:46 i succinctly but i hope also fairly tmo studio e ryden and harley witnesses have said
02:25:50 have said either orally or in their witness statements or both that they relied on building control to ensure that the refurbishment complied with the building regulations
02:26:01 with the building regulations my question is did you yourself appreciate at the time of the grenfell tower refurbishment and your role in it that those parties involved in the
02:26:12 that those parties involved in the refurbishment project viewed building control in that way no
02:26:19 i now want to turn to a yet again a different topic which is the structure of the rbkc building control department now your role during the time of the grenfell tower project was i think as a senior building control
02:26:31 was i think as a senior building control surveyor
02:26:32 surveyor yes yes yes is that the same as a principal building control surveyor no can you just explain the differences to us please uh uh principal uh originally a principal
02:26:44 uh principal uh originally a principal building control surveyor was was a manager of of a team of surveyors at the time of grenville uh the principal was a deputy
02:26:55 grenville uh the principal was a deputy uh also the the principal would would deal with uh more more complex projects and manage staff
02:27:12 and a senior building controls are there where would that fit into the hierarchy uh he he was uh generally an area surveyor that would deal with
02:27:23 an area surveyor that would deal with the area that he was dealing with i think as instructed by managers instructed by managers and how did a senior building control survey relate to a principal building control surveyor
02:27:34 a principal building control surveyor uh they were junior uh junior to to a principal building transfer immediately junior yes right now in um did just give me a feel for this how many
02:27:46 just give me a feel for this how many senior or principal building control surveyors worked in the in the rbkc building control department at the time of the grenfell tower project
02:27:55 project uh there was one principal surveyor yes we had well the numbers changed because originally uh in in
02:28:07 originally uh in in in 2013 after our restructuring we had
02:28:14 bear with me for a moment please uh we had the head of building control we had his deputy who was a principal that was uh yes
02:28:33 there was three senior surveyors and there was three building control surveyors
02:28:40 surveyors i believe that uh colin who passed away in
02:28:46 in in october 2015 had just been made a senior prior to him passing away yes i see um now in 2013
02:28:59 i see um now in 2013 september 2013 specifically i think it's right that john allen was appointed as building control manager wasn't he correct where did he fit into that structure that you've just explained he was the top he was the he was the
02:29:11 he was the top he was the he was the head of bc was it yes right and from that time onwards uh is it right that john allen was your line manager
02:29:18 manager or was there an intervening principal surveyor uh well john john uh john allen was my manager but
02:29:25 but in in his absence jose was right and was jose a principal building controls of that he was right i see so although he was
02:29:37 right i see so although he was effectively your senior nonetheless you reported mostly directly to john allen as the head of bc correct
02:29:43 correct i've got have i got that right yes thank you okay so was john allen also in charge of allocating work within the department i think that was done between him and jose i see
02:29:54 jose i see and work i think as you say was usually allocated on a patch system correct does that mean that you covered everything in your patch in other words a geographical area yes although saying that when i
02:30:06 area yes although saying that when i got the i was given uh the responsibility of looking after the academy and and the sports centre that was in hillary's patch
02:30:17 hillary's patch right at the time
02:30:20 and who is hillary uh hilary wyatt she was a
02:30:24 was a colleague that transferred to the planning department did the allocation of work within the your patch take into account current workloads skill experience
02:30:37 current workloads skill experience and qualifications
02:30:42 i was just given the work right but it may be a question for others but to your knowledge and understanding at the time did
02:30:49 did the allocation of work which would ordinarily fall within your patch take account of your workload for example
02:31:00 example no all right it was given to me it was given to you because it was in your patch regardless of your workload yes right and regardless of your skill
02:31:11 yes right and regardless of your skill and experience yes and regardless of your qualifications or absence of them yes now i think you said before that just earlier on in your evidence
02:31:23 that just earlier on in your evidence that changes were made to the structure of the building control department in 2013. yes um were you aware that that time that
02:31:32 time that the local authority building control services
02:31:36 services and particularly rbkc were expected to be cost neutral yes what did you understand by that
02:31:48 that we had to be self-funding i believe self-funding yes uh there was obviously uh austerity measures as well and so on but prior to september 2013 i
02:32:01 and so on but prior to september 2013 i think john allen was in charge of special projects yes and
02:32:06 yes and does that tell us that before september 2013 spread special projects were dealt with separately from the general run of building control applications yes and from from 2013
02:32:19 yes and from from 2013 special projects were then reallocated within the department were they yes and so did those become part of the patch system correct so if there was a special project that would normally be dealt
02:32:30 project that would normally be dealt with before september 2013 by john allen as a specialist project after that date if it fell in your patch you would get it yes i see
02:32:41 and does that mean this may sound obvious but after um 2000 september 2013 you were doing special projects that were not part of your day-to-day role before
02:32:53 not part of your day-to-day role before that date yes before september 2013 did you yourself have any experience of working on special projects
02:33:03 [Music] ah um
02:33:07 ah um sorry and initially before before uh when the uh local authority took over the responsibilities
02:33:18 responsibilities of of uh
02:33:21 of of uh of building control the the area surveyor would would look after the
02:33:27 after the jobs in his his his own particular area but we had a fire regulations group that would deal with uh the fire regulation matters
02:33:39 and so you would go to them for for advice
02:33:44 advice and they would would deal with uh with the uh aspects of b1 or not not b1 part b right what would count as a
02:33:55 part b right what would count as a special project
02:34:00 i don't know if there was a definition it was generally a big uh a major project right it's a major and complex project yes i see and my question again did you yourself before september 2013 have any
02:34:12 yourself before september 2013 have any experience of working on special projects
02:34:15 projects no not as defined when the group k came into uh
02:34:23 when it was set up right
02:34:28 i i think calc the kensington um academy of leisure center used that as an abbreviation was it was which ultimately came to include
02:34:39 which ultimately came to include grenfell tower was a special project wasn't it
02:34:42 wasn't it it was yes and therefore does it follow that grenfell tower was itself considered by our bkc as a special project yes i would say so so
02:34:54 yes i would say so so does it follow from there that grenfell tower was your first special project i dealt with the academy and the leisure center when i was instructed to do so by by john allen right i see
02:35:07 by john allen right i see now you i think were not john allen's first choice of building control officer for grenfell tower were you i don't know right do you know that he initially offered it to to jose anon
02:35:19 offered it to to jose anon i wasn't aware i didn't know that did jose anon have greater experience in working on special projects than you did
02:35:31 he may have had because he was a principal yes as i say as a principal so they they had uh greater responsibility they they would deal with the the bigger projects were you given any
02:35:44 the bigger projects were you given any other special projects to work on in and after september 2013 i was dealing with a i don't know where big class is a special project i was given a
02:35:55 special project i was given a there was a partnership scheme that i was dealing with that involved a number of town houses four town houses uh a low-rise office building
02:36:07 building uh facade retention with with i think nine nine flats and it was all
02:36:14 all all new built right so i was dealing with
02:36:17 with with with that uh as well as the the other projects they that if if that had come along when the special
02:36:28 if that had come along when the special projects group was done it most probably would have gone to the special projects the variety now taking the period from september 2013
02:36:38 2013 onwards mr hogan you say in your first statement and it's paragraph 36 i don't think we need to go to it that you would take decisions on b2 b3 and b4 issues
02:36:49 and b4 issues and that you would consult with paul hanson and john allen where necessary yeah on grenfell how often did you consult with john allen
02:37:02 just in general terms
02:37:10 uh i i sorry i'm i'm trying to think i know i asked it well i don't know whether it's consulting i asked him to do a visit for me because i wasn't available
02:37:24 because i wasn't available one day and i spoke with him will not consult uh i spoke with him about about my my work
02:37:35 i spoke with him about about my my work every month we would have monthly one-to-ones generally
02:37:40 generally and he would we would talk about my work yes i see
02:37:44 yes i see and and did you talk about your work on grenfell tower specifically or was it a discussion about your workload and general questions
02:37:55 just generally right i'm going to ask you about paul hanson separately later on in in our discussions together can i then turn to us to a question of
02:38:06 can i then turn to us to a question of austerity
02:38:07 austerity um can i show you paragraph three of your first statement on page one of that document your first statement and you say there as a result of restructuring due to austerity measures
02:38:19 restructuring due to austerity measures the planning department was restructured with substantial cuts to building control
02:38:23 control this led to a substantial reduction in the number of employees in building control
02:38:28 control consequently the remaining employees had their workload increased commensurately can you tell us um or give us an idea of the
02:38:38 the number of employees reduced
02:38:44 there was six surveyors that well that were due to uh retire uh one of my one of my colleagues unfortunately
02:38:55 colleagues unfortunately michael wing passed away just before he was due to retire so we lost uh john uh john jackson who was the head of uh building control
02:39:07 uh building control david gammon who was the head of the fire regulations group who was a principal
02:39:15 principal we also lost gary sharp who was a principal surveyor and there was let's say mick wing who passed away uh richard bedo who was a senior
02:39:28 uh richard bedo who was a senior surveyor
02:39:28 surveyor and alan de souza who was a senior building surveyor right so all you've you've mentioned six names one
02:39:35 one um died uh five retired did they retire because of austerity or did they did they retire because they were retiring anyway no it was it was to do with the restructuring i
02:39:46 it was to do with the restructuring i see so
02:39:48 see so five in total essentially and how many did that leave behind how many building controls surveyors were left in the building control department by the end of two thousand
02:39:58 thousand we had we as i said we had a ahead head of building control uh fire regulations group was just made up of paul hansen at that stage
02:40:09 up of paul hansen at that stage and uh jose anon was the principal and there was myself
02:40:18 pavinda verdi uh and the me and faji who were senior surveyors there's three and we had hillary wyatt
02:40:29 and we had hillary wyatt uh colin uh colin ryan and and celia celia burt who was uh they were all all ordinary building surveyors
02:40:40 surveyors right we introduced we introduced i'd i can't remember when we had an enforcement surveyor one of one of my colleagues that worked in the business support
02:40:52 in the business support team became a uh an enforcement surveyor in i believe it was
02:41:00 was 2007 principally he was going out and making discoveries okay so um do i take it from that list
02:41:11 okay so um do i take it from that list that all of those people you've mentioned
02:41:13 mentioned so paul hansen jose and on vinda verdi hillary white and colin ryan were all there before the restructuring and stayed on
02:41:21 stayed on yes colin ryan died and hillary left and celia burke left celia but left right
02:41:29 right so um you went from down down from about 12 to about four or five aries surveyors uh
02:41:39 well originally we went down to six yes aries
02:41:43 aries and then as i say uh hillary moved to planning
02:41:47 planning uh see celia uh left and colin passed away
02:41:52 away the last in in 2016 we got the graduate who was taken on as a building control surveyor wackus
02:42:03 as a building control surveyor wackus rasheed
02:42:04 rasheed it was it he had never worked in a building control office before so he was starting from scratch as well
02:42:15 so he was starting from scratch as well he had i think he graduated the summer before he joined us he did some work for a housing association
02:42:26 work for a housing association yes um did the building control department lose staff due to increased competition from the private sector by which i specifically mean approved
02:42:38 inspectors
02:42:44 i couldn't answer that queer i wouldn't know as i say it was mainly to do with cats
02:42:49 cats uh austerity cuts as far as now you said that i'm sorry i may cut you off at the end of that answer do you want to finish that answer
02:43:01 have you finished your answers to him well they just uh mr jackson put uh proposal forward for restructuring the
02:43:15 department and that was approved by by the managers and the councillors i think you've said that there was an increase in
02:43:27 that there was an increase in workload resulting from these reductions yes
02:43:30 yes what impact did that have on your workload
02:43:34 workload in the period after 2013. well it meant that i couldn't a visit as frequently uh as as as previously
02:43:47 the jobs the jobs that i've been dealing with
02:43:50 with prior to that did your patch get bigger it did right
02:43:58 do you when you say the remaining employees had their workload increased commensurately did that affect the efficiency and thoroughness with which you were able to carry out your role on each project
02:44:12 well i tried i tried to work to the efficiency but as time progressed uh
02:44:20 i wasn't able to do as i mentioned i wasn't able to do the job as the way i wanted to to do it
02:44:28 in that in that i wasn't able to to visit as uh jobs as much as i i wanted to to
02:44:39 jobs as much as i i wanted to to also you making decisions on [Music]
02:44:44 [Music] on
02:44:46 on sometimes
02:44:50 writing emails you some jobs you would say uh for example if an email came through and you would phone somebody up and say is is this adequate for for the purposes of
02:45:01 purposes of of the response to your email and they would
02:45:04 would if they agreed then you could as well sign that off sometimes there were jobs where you would know or consider that there could be issues
02:45:15 or consider that there could be issues at a later stage so i would make certain that that these were followed up with it with emails in order that if there was a
02:45:26 with emails in order that if there was a an issue at a later stage she could actually show what had been done previously now in his evidence to the inquiry neil crawford of studio e told us and
02:45:37 neil crawford of studio e told us and this is day 11 at page 131 that you had told him that you were supposed to oversee hundreds of projects do you remember whether you did say that to him no i don't recall saying that were you uh overseeing
02:45:50 saying that were you uh overseeing literally hundreds of projects no i was i was saying i was it about it would fluctuate towards the end about i would say
02:46:02 towards the end about i would say or in 2016 between 120 130 projects plus my other duties
02:46:14 so although it wasn't hundreds it was certainly more than a hundred yes right um can we just go back to your appraisal
02:46:22 appraisal for 2015 to 16 which we'll find at rbk3048753 i just want to look at page 3 with you
02:46:39 i just want to look at page 3 with you uh at the bottom of the page under mid-year comments can you see that it says
02:46:45 says covering inspections for surveyors in two other areas and then if you go over the page to page seven
02:46:55 you can see there um that on the right-hand side of the page under manager midyear john has already achieved a number of
02:47:06 john has already achieved a number of the targets currently has high workloads covering for two other colleagues you see that yes over what period were you covering for two other colleagues well
02:47:19 other colleagues well hillary left in uh
02:47:23 in 2000 and or not left she moved to the plain department sometime in 2014 yes and celia burke uh left the
02:47:34 yes and celia burke uh left the employment council the end of march 2015. so it was them and then and then colin passed away in october
02:47:43 october 2015 and i got a percentage of his work i see so in fact it was three colleagues from
02:47:52 from september 2015 15.
02:47:56 now october 2 2015. yeah um yes it was
02:48:04 yes yes and what what impact did your covering
02:48:08 covering for those two and then three other colleagues have on your workload well as i say you i wasn't visiting certain jobs i was making sort of
02:48:19 certain jobs i was making sort of judgments
02:48:20 judgments on on on uh on who to to visit uh on who to write to
02:48:31 on who to write to uh sort of confirm come confirm things right so you're making judgments on
02:48:37 on on sort of the level of supervision the standard of workmanship whether you work with particular people in in the past and whether you considered that that
02:48:50 and whether you considered that that they they were doing what they needed to do
02:48:56 do you need when you were covering for two other colleagues did that increase the number of projects oh yes right and then laterally three so did you did the number of projects double and then triple
02:49:08 double and then triple um from your base as it went well 2013. i as as uh or uh as building control surveyors they had slightly less numbers
02:49:20 slightly less numbers that than than my myself uh in their areas so uh as i say uh although colin colin in fairness had
02:49:33 colin colin in fairness had uh uh quite a big area and he was dealing with with major projects as well one particular major project as well
02:49:44 one particular major project as well uh so colin was was working far far above uh in my opinion uh above uh what was expected of a building control
02:49:56 what was expected of a building control surveyor
02:49:57 surveyor right did say did you took on two other patches yeah another thing and then as a sayer uh i would say maybe a third or slightly more of colin's area
02:50:08 colin's area when he passed away can i show you mr allen's statement uh that's his first statement um rbk triple zero three three nine three zero at page three please i just want to show
02:50:20 at page three please i just want to show you what he says at paragraph 16 and then ask you a question about it before we break um it's the first six lines of paragraph 16 he says
02:50:35 typically as the manager i would meet the area surveyors monthly check through their monthly job sheets and in particular what i was actually what was actually still current live to confirm that their workload was
02:50:46 live to confirm that their workload was manageable i would always ask if the surveyor needed any help or assistance but i had great confidence in the team as i had been out with them all whilst and whilst they all had different approaches to the work and relationships
02:50:57 approaches to the work and relationships i found them all to be good and competent
02:51:00 competent and then it goes all about the files did mr allen meet with you monthly to check through your job sheets so as to ensure that your workload was manageable uh
02:51:14 i would say he did meet with me monthly but
02:51:19 but as regards manageable uh that wasn't something that was just discussed i actually i remember in in uh you know i think was march or
02:51:31 in uh you know i think was march or april uh
02:51:34 2015 when he when he gave me hillary's patch
02:51:38 patch i did art ask for help and i made a number of suggestions as as as to how how to deal with with uh celia's patch
02:51:52 when when she left and uh i think none of these were were taken up and i was given uh celia's area to
02:52:04 up and i was given uh celia's area to to look after he says he would always ask if the surveyor needed any help or assistance did he always ask you if you needed help or assistance
02:52:13 right i'm just just mr chairman i've got one
02:52:16 one very short document just to show you the witness and then i can finish off this line of
02:52:20 line of questioning if that's acceptable ryd four zero is four two one eight please ryd four zero eight this is an email of the 8th of may 2014
02:52:35 from mr blake stephen blake to simon lawrence
02:52:39 lawrence and zach maynard this is an internal ryden document and i just want to show you the very last line in the in the email it says there at the bottom
02:52:50 in the email it says there at the bottom of the page ps claire mentioned building control submission as the department is swamped you someone else my question is
02:53:00 is at this time may 14 was the rbk sake seat building control department swamped may 14. um
02:53:18 i would say for me personally
02:53:22 i was having i was having to come ins in order to
02:53:26 order to um deal with the the academy and the leisure center because there was it was a new build and there was quite a lot of work to to look at look at so it was
02:53:39 to look at look at so it was it was challenging you know i was do doing doing my my own area and as i say i was doing those two major projects
02:53:50 projects and the demands well not the too much demand uh that the contractors were looking for uh uh my i spent a lot of time
02:54:02 uh uh my i spent a lot of time looking at those particular projects ah right thank you mr chairman is that a convenient moment i think it is yes thank you very much mr hoeven we're going to have a break now
02:54:13 hoeven we're going to have a break now so everyone can get some lunch we'll resume at
02:54:17 resume at five past two please and while you're out of the room please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it no um and so if you go to the our show she'll look after
02:54:28 you go to the our show she'll look after you
02:54:28 you right thank you very much
02:54:43 right five past two please
02:55:50 you