Evidence from Sam Mackover, Chair of Housing and Property Scrutiny Committee (HPSC), regarding RBKC's oversight of fire safety and TMO management. Mackover reveals he was never shown critical fire safety policies, deficiency notices, or enforcement actions. Key testimony exposes how Laura Johnson failed to inform the committee about Adair Tower enforcement notices and actively resisted scrutiny of fire door issues.
00:00:32 today's hearing. We're going to begin today by hearing evidence from another former member of the Kensington and Chelsea Council. Yes, Mr. Caner. Sir,
00:00:43 Chelsea Council. Yes, Mr. Caner. Sir, thank you. May I call Sam Mack over? Thank you.
00:00:56 Good morning, Mr. Macover. I understand that you're uh going to make the affirmation. So, if you'd read the words on the screen, please. I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly
00:01:07 I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Thank you very much. Do sit down. Make yourself comfortable.
00:01:26 Right. Yeah.
00:01:27 Yeah. When you're ready, Mr. Cle. Thanks, sir. Um, first of all, would you please confirm your name for the record? Sam Mackover. Thank you. Now, if any of my questions today are unclear or too long, please
00:01:38 today are unclear or too long, please say so and I'll rephrase them. Secondly, if at any time you would like a break, please say so. Uh thirdly, if um during the course of your evidence,
00:01:49 um during the course of your evidence, would you mind keeping your voice up? That's so that the transcriber can capture everything you say. And finally, um please don't nod or shake your head in response to an answer. Simply say yes or no. So that too can be caught by the
00:02:01 or no. So that too can be caught by the transcriber. Yes. Now you have provided three statements. Um the first is a statement given to the Metropolitan Police dated the 30th of July 2018 and that can be found at ME trip 065143.
00:02:18 You provided a first witness statement to this inquiry dated the 28th of September 2018 and that can be found at RBK02923.
00:02:33 And finally, you provided a second statement to this inquiry on the 29th of September, 2019, which can be found at RBK05434.
00:02:44 Have you read each of those statements recently?
00:02:46 recently? Yes, I have. And you can confirm their contents are true?
00:02:49 true? Yes.
00:02:50 Yes. And have you discussed your evidence with anyone before coming here today? No.
00:02:54 No. Now, the first topic I'd like to uh discuss with you today is the HPSC procedure itself. And can we begin by looking at um the first document you exhibit to your first witness statement
00:03:06 exhibit to your first witness statement uh for this inquiry and that can be found at RBK03748
00:03:12 slash2
00:03:17 and we see there at article 6.01 01 of the RBKC uh constitution. It sets out the general duties of the scrutiny committee. And if I could ask to turn
00:03:28 committee. And if I could ask to turn over the page to page three and article 6.03 03 at the bottom of that page.
00:03:36 Uh that sets out uh the
00:03:43 terms of reference of the scrutiny steering group and below that the housing and property scrutiny committee. Now would it be right to say that in discharge of your functions that uh your
00:03:56 discharge of your functions that uh your committee would have scrutinized safety in particular fire safety in so far as it affected residents of properties owned by RBKC? Yes.
00:04:04 Yes. And is it right that the committee had no decision-making power but could inquire, discuss and question the actions of the council uh the council's officers and the TMO? Yes.
00:04:15 Yes. uh although uh the extent of your scrutiny would depend I assume on the sufficiency and adequacy of the information with which you're provided. Is that a fair comment?
00:04:26 Is that a fair comment? That's right. And notwithstanding those limitations, one thing your committee could do would be to set up a working group to examine a particular issue. Is that correct? Yes.
00:04:38 Yes. And that working group could delve into a matter in more detail and question officers and other relevant individuals. Is that right? Uh in my experience, typically on a working group, um it would be um uh a
00:04:52 working group, um it would be um uh a small number of committee members who um would discuss uh most likely a a future issue in more detail. And it wouldn't
00:05:03 issue in more detail. And it wouldn't really be a matter of questioning officers or anybody else, but in developing um a a new policy or way of dealing with
00:05:14 a new policy or way of dealing with something and you'd have access to information that could be provided. Um would a report uh set out the working group's conclusions and recommendations? Yes. Now, can I turn to look at fire
00:05:25 Yes. Now, can I turn to look at fire safety in more detail and your committee's scrutiny of that topic? in paragraph 40 of your first witness statement to the inquiry which can be found at rbk02923
00:05:38 slash9
00:05:43 paragraph 40 you say there that the scrutiny of buroughwide fire safety fell within the remmit of the cabinet and corporate services scrutiny committee. Is it nonetheless correct to say that uh
00:05:55 Is it nonetheless correct to say that uh your committee scrutinized fire safety if and in so far as it affected RBKC's housing stock? Yes.
00:06:03 Yes. And in particular, your committee scrutinized the TMO's approach to the discharge of its fire safety obligations. Yes.
00:06:10 Yes. Now, as we see there at paragraph 41 of your statement, uh you go on to say this, and I quote, "Hpsc members received information on fire safety across the TMO state from reports and updates provided by the director of
00:06:21 updates provided by the director of housing, a TMO representative, and in the cabinet members report. I recall that various updates were provided at HPSC meetings from 2014 onwards on installing flat entrance doors compliant
00:06:32 installing flat entrance doors compliant with fire safety standards. Now, in scrutinizing the actions of the executive in the way that you did, would you consider RBKC's own health and safety policy to give you a benchmark against which to judge the TMO?
00:06:45 against which to judge the TMO? I never saw one and uh and that's it links into the paragraph uh uh above um because uh it was only much later that I
00:06:57 because uh it was only much later that I recognized that there was a policy framework that was happening elsewhere from our own scrutiny committee. When you say later, um, can you remember when?
00:07:06 when? Yeah, I think, um, it was referred to when, uh, one c I think it was probably after either the trellic or the, uh, a dare, um, fire when one of the scrutiny
00:07:19 dare, um, fire when one of the scrutiny members said, where is why is there a stayput policy? And, uh, whoever was answering the question, it may have been the TMO said, um, that's determined on a buroughwide basis. Were you aware of
00:07:32 buroughwide basis. Were you aware of RBKC's own general health and safety policy?
00:07:36 policy? No.
00:07:37 No. Um,
00:07:39 Um, could I just take you to though a version of it dated January 2014 which can be found at RBK uh quadruple0165
00:07:53 has quite a distinctive front page. But is it right to say then given what you've just said, you never saw that during your time as a counselor on the scrutiny committee? Correct.
00:08:10 Could I nonetheless just take you through some of the provisions of it? And could I ask us to go to page three and the first paragraph under the introduction? It says there the policy this policy
00:08:22 It says there the policy this policy sets out the strategic fire safety vision objectives of elected members and the executive joint management team. It describes the way in which we effectively manage fire safety based upon British standard publication paz 7
00:08:33 upon British standard publication paz 7 virus management system specification. Now given its importance was this policy never referred to by Laura Johnson in any submissions she put before you?
00:08:44 any submissions she put before you? I never heard it or recall seeing it referred to at all. at all.
00:08:53 Now looking at the four lines emboldened under that diagram which say plan plan the direction for fire safety management do profile the fire risks organize and
00:09:04 do profile the fire risks organize and implement controls check that fire safety management is working act act on improving safety management. Do you agree that as scrutiny committee chair you had an important role in
00:09:16 chair you had an important role in checking that the substance of those matters had been complied with both by RBKC and TMO? Um yes rather than an overall policy way in whatever information was provided to
00:09:29 in whatever information was provided to us. Those are what we would be making sure that was done. And self-evidently, if you'd had this policy framework available to you, do you think the nature, extent, and ferocity of your
00:09:42 nature, extent, and ferocity of your scrutiny would have been improved? Certainly the nature and extent um I don't I don't think it was ever in our nature to do anything that way.
00:09:54 nature to do anything that way. Okay. If we can turn to paragraph 2.2 to at page four.
00:10:00 It deals here with the scope of the policy and says this and I quote, "This policy will apply to all premises where the council has a duty as the employer and/or as the responsible person as defined in the 2005 order. This policy
00:10:12 defined in the 2005 order. This policy will also apply to any premises where by virtue of a contract or teny agreement other parties have duties of the responsible person, but where the council retains landlord responsibilities. A local fire policy
00:10:24 responsibilities. A local fire policy for residential housing based on the housing stock risk profile would be put in place by the housing and regeneration department. Now that suggests that the policy would apply to housing stock managed by the TMO whether as
00:10:35 managed by the TMO whether as responsible person or a landlord. Would you agree with that proposition? Yes.
00:10:40 Yes. There is there in the final um sentence a reference to a local fire policy. Can you help us as to what that's referring? Uh, I don't I assume there was I have to assume now that there was one reading it
00:10:51 assume now that there was one reading it here, but we never saw it or or therefore could scrutinize it. Do you have any recollection of any reference to a local fire policy being made in submissions to you or raised by
00:11:03 made in submissions to you or raised by officers?
00:11:04 officers? No, the term is not familiar to me. Now, if I could ask you to turn over the page to page five and look at the fourth paragraph.
00:11:15 It says there and I quote, "The council has an appointed corporate health and safety team to provide competent advice." It then goes on to say that the corporate health and safety team will ensure that there are appropriate processes in place to ensure our partner
00:11:27 processes in place to ensure our partner organizations have suitable and sufficient fire safety management systems in place. Now from that paragraph it would appear to be clear that the council had its own
00:11:39 to be clear that the council had its own health and safety team which could provide advice and support to the TMO as a partner organization. Would you agree with that? Yes, from what I see here. Can you recall in your time on the
00:11:51 Can you recall in your time on the scrutiny committee whether there was any reference to advice or guidance given by the council's in-house health and safety team to the TMO? No reference. Could I ask you to turn
00:12:02 No reference. Could I ask you to turn over the page to page six and paragraph 2.5
00:12:07 2.5 and it's headed responsibilities of elected members and says this. A cabinet member for each burough will be nominated to lead on health and safety matters. Elected members will ensure that health and safety is adequately
00:12:18 that health and safety is adequately considered when making decisions at a strategic level. This will be through an annual report on the health and safety profile of the organization provided for public scrutiny at the appropriate scrutiny committee for each sovereign
00:12:30 scrutiny committee for each sovereign burough.
00:12:32 burough. Now again I'd suggest to you that's plain that the policy envisaged a role for the scrutiny committee. Would you accept that? uh well the appropriate scrutiny committee that's where my thinking is that I I must have gone to
00:12:46 thinking is that I I must have gone to what looked like from the constitution uh the cabinet and corpor corporate services scrutiny committee it certainly didn't come to uh to my recollection to uh housing and property thank you and if
00:12:58 uh housing and property thank you and if we could go now on to page 13 and paragraph 4.1 and in particular the third paragraph under 4.1
00:13:06 under 4.1 it says there and I quote all incidents should be reported using the online system. Incidents should be investigated by the manager. Consideration should be given to any system solutions to avoid future occurrence. And this is the bit I
00:13:17 future occurrence. And this is the bit I wish to emphasize. Corporate health and safety will investigate serious instance when enforcing bodies such as the LFIPA are or may be involved. Um first of all, were you aware of even if you hadn't
00:13:29 were you aware of even if you hadn't seen the policy, were you aware of that provision or that rule? Uh no.
00:13:36 it would seem on its face to apply to regulatory notices served by Alipa, wouldn't it? Um, I think what I'd say there is that I remember in in audits or in uh annual
00:13:50 remember in in audits or in uh annual updates from uh from the TMO um there was reference to um um uh health and safety team or something like that uh on
00:14:01 safety team or something like that uh on many occasions and therefore I can't say whether this this is referring to an RBKC or TMO health and safety team but it did appear that phrase uh in the um
00:14:13 it did appear that phrase uh in the um annual and and six-month update reports and can you remember there had been much if any discussion uh on your committee when regulatory notices were served by any regulatory authority
00:14:26 any regulatory authority um those linked with the data I can only I can only think of uh of one instance um in my in in in my time of
00:14:37 instance um in my in in in my time of chairing which I think uh or maybe just before which was the air where after that there was um I think an enforcement notice but um that's that's the only
00:14:48 notice but um that's that's the only time I can think that there was some reference made to it. I think it was in an oral update first. Thank you. Uh can I now turn to attendance at HPSC meetings and as far
00:14:59 attendance at HPSC meetings and as far as we can make out the first meeting that you attended was in July 2011. Does that sound about right to you? It would sound right. I was just started then. Now, I would like to ask you about some guidance that was available to
00:15:11 some guidance that was available to counselors who um were concerned with fire safety. And first of all, a guidance entitled Extinguishing the Risk, a counselor's guide to fire safety. And that can be termed up at
00:15:22 safety. And that can be termed up at TMO1037396.
00:15:30 Now, that's dated January 2010. Can you remember seeing that document before today? No.
00:15:40 Next. Can we turn to a guidance entitled counselor guide on fire safety for use during a state visit which can be found at LFB quadruple01294.
00:15:54 Now this appears to be dated June um 2014. Have you seen that before today? Uh well only this week when seeing Yes, exactly.
00:16:05 Yes, exactly. And finally, can I ask us to turn up a document entitled councelor guide on fire safety for use during council meetings which can be found at LFB quadruple01295
00:16:16 quadruple01295 and is also dated we think the 25th of June 2014. Again, have you seen that document before today? Only this week in hearings.
00:16:30 If you hadn't seen those three guidance documents, were you provided with any guidance on the nature and extent of the fire safety duties discharge of which you were scrutinizing?
00:16:42 you were scrutinizing? Uh only in updates uh provided as papers on the on the committee. I don't think we saw um any other attachments. It would be um
00:16:53 other attachments. It would be um updates and reports produced by housing or the TMO. So you never received a document akin to a primer which set out the the relevant principal duties are XY Z uh and you need to be thinking about
00:17:06 Z uh and you need to be thinking about these.
00:17:06 these. Don't remember seeing anything of those. Now staying with this particular document um we see that there is in at the top half of that page a gray box which sets up the words fire safety and
00:17:18 which sets up the words fire safety and purpose-built blocks of flats and masons in your burough. And it goes on to say this. Local authorities play a vital role in ensuring fire safety within their burough as community leaders, enforcing
00:17:29 burough as community leaders, enforcing authorities, partners to the emergency services, and as landlords themselves. Uh even if you hadn't seen this document, were you aware of the quote vital role local authorities played in
00:17:42 vital role local authorities played in the performance of fire safety? Yes. If we can turn over to the second page and in particular the gray box at the top which is entitled what can counselors do and it says this and I
00:17:54 counselors do and it says this and I quote do not make assumptions that fire safety has been actively or effectively managed and purpose-built blocks of flats and masons in your burough. Counselors can make their bur safer by scrutinizing how responsibilities for
00:18:05 scrutinizing how responsibilities for fire safety are met and ensuring that the fire safety in your burough is continuously being monitored and improved. Um, what did you do during your time on the scrutiny committee to
00:18:17 your time on the scrutiny committee to test any relevant assumptions that fire safety was actively or effectively managed?
00:18:23 managed? Um I think that when whenever um uh a report or an update or a risk uh was mentioned um in reference then um I
00:18:35 mentioned um in reference then um I think it was both me and other councilors on the scrutiny committee would um uh very strongly focus on it.
00:18:45 And looking at the second element of that, how did you test assumptions that that fire safety was being continuously monitored and improved? How did you go about discharging your functions in that
00:18:56 about discharging your functions in that respect?
00:18:57 respect? Uh probably well definitely looking at the audit reports because to me that was um a very um strong evidence should be
00:19:09 um a very um strong evidence should be evidence testing regime that was done independently uh of the TMO from what I understand. uh from the updates because I attached um um you know full full
00:19:21 I attached um um you know full full credibility to what officers were saying. They were very responsive. If we asked questions, they would always um provide us um with answers. If those answers weren't clear, we would keep
00:19:32 answers weren't clear, we would keep asking. Uh so it was officer reports, uh audit and uh responses to our questions. Did you at any time had cause to believe you were not being given the complete
00:19:43 you were not being given the complete picture in relation to performance of fire safety duties by relevant officers whether vC or the TMO?
00:19:53 um towards the end uh um I found that we just didn't seem to be getting the
00:20:04 we just didn't seem to be getting the amount of progress um in
00:20:09 um in solving what seemed to be a binary um job which was to test and if not sufficient replace both lease holder
00:20:20 sufficient replace both lease holder doors and TMO doors. I did understand it was fair that um doors get damaged, door closes get damaged and therefore there will there will likely always be a list of things to to to get done. Um but it
00:20:34 of things to to to get done. Um but it by by it not getting solved um that's what gave me concern that maybe we didn't have all the information. And when you say towards the end, uh can you give the panel an idea of the timing
00:20:46 give the panel an idea of the timing when uh you were concerned that matters were not progressing as swiftly as you felt they could have been? Yeah, I think um I remember sever several occasions where we were given very good assurances. Uh I think one was
00:21:00 very good assurances. Uh I think one was um uh uh saying that um all doors are inspected on an annual basis. If anything isn't sufficient, then it's then it's then it's replaced. Another occasion um I think after the Adair
00:21:13 occasion um I think after the Adair fire, one of the councils was asked and was given the answer um that um all of our blocks are compliant with with fire closer doors. Um and so after and it's particularly when there's a um when
00:21:25 particularly when there's a um when there's a an incident I think it was the trellic u um trellic fire may have been in
00:21:32 in um March or May uh of 17 um um when um me and one other counselor
00:21:43 me and one other counselor were um very concerned that we still didn't have a solution to something that we kept coming back to every time every every time. So even though the the the
00:21:54 every time. So even though the the the report was on the trail fire, we said, "Well, if there was a problem there, then what about everywhere else?" And that that's where I noticed there was um
00:22:05 that that's where I noticed there was um a resistance. Uh I think the minutes are quite polite uh compared with how I shall come on to that in in due course. Mr. Macover, could we just stay with this document before we go on to um
00:22:17 with this document before we go on to um your committee's deliberations on those matters? And if we could um reduce the document on the screen to its uh normal size so we can see the entirety of it. And you'll see there in the bottom left
00:22:28 And you'll see there in the bottom left hand corner a series of questions and rather than me read it out I'll invite you to skim read those and if you could indicate when you are done.
00:22:38 done. Okay.
00:23:17 Okay. When you sat on the scrutiny committee, were you conscious of the need to ask these or the substance of these questions? They all seem they all seem good
00:23:29 They all seem they all seem good questions and I think we uh touched on uh most of them. Um which
00:23:36 which well I was going at the end the way it says clear policies stating modifications, maintenance works um etc. Those are something which I think would either come under planning or building
00:23:48 either come under planning or building control and those were both completely outside this terms of reference for our committee. Now can we turn to look at a report prepared by Laura Johnson for the May 2015 scrutiny committee meeting. We
00:23:59 May 2015 scrutiny committee meeting. We can find that report at RBK047681
00:24:04 and the first item of that report concerns non-compliant fire safety doors. So picking up the point you made earlier on Mr. back over and can we just have a look at that document and if that
00:24:16 have a look at that document and if that can be put on one side of the screen and the other side of the screen put up par 45 of your first witness statement which can be found at RBK02923
00:24:30 slash10
00:24:37 and there you see it paragraph 45 on the right hand side. You say you sent an email to Anne Wright in the governance department. I assume I'd looked at the forthcoming HPSC papers and wondered whether it would make sense for the TMO
00:24:48 whether it would make sense for the TMO council to pay for replacement of the leaseold fire doors rather than proceeding with enforcement action. And you quote the email said interesting reports. Thanks. It might be interesting to have to hand the cost of a fire door
00:25:00 to have to hand the cost of a fire door versus cost of legal enforcement action. Is it fair to say or is it a fair assumption that you were referring there to Laura Johnson's report which is on the left hand of the screen? Yes.
00:25:11 Yes. Did you receive a response to the email you sent to Anride? Can you now? You didn't. I don't think so. I don't think I ever saw a number. Now, can we take both of
00:25:22 saw a number. Now, can we take both of those documents down and turn to the minutes of the meeting which are RBK0 32
00:25:30 32 trouble 4/2.
00:25:36 If we go to item A5 at the bottom in the second paragraph under that page, it says this and I quote, "In responsible in response to council bacteria, Miss Johnson advised that TMO tenant doors were checked for fire safety compliance
00:25:48 were checked for fire safety compliance as part of an annual program and replaced if non-compliant. She agreed to provide an update to the committee on the exact number of non-compliant TMO tenant doors.
00:25:59 tenant doors. And we if we uh go on further you'll see councelor Pascal thank the TMO and officers for the follow through and continuing work on fire door compliance. And if we turn over the page
00:26:12 uh we see they move to other related matters or housing related matters. Um does the quotation there uh that Miss Johnson advised that that TMO tenant
00:26:23 Johnson advised that that TMO tenant doors were checked for fire safety compliance as part of an annual program. Do you think now that minute fairly and accurately represents what you were told at the time? Yes.
00:26:33 Yes. Now bearing that in mind, can we now turn to the uh question of the Adair Tower fire which you referred to earlier on. And just to give you some uh chronology to fix the questions on the 12th of October 2015, the LFB issued a
00:26:46 12th of October 2015, the LFB issued a deficiency notice in relation to um Adair Tower. And so you know what I'm talking about, we can turn to it at TMO84271.
00:27:04 There you go. And the various identified deficiencies are at page three. And if I could just we'll start at page three. And article 11, a failure to monitor and review
00:27:16 11, a failure to monitor and review significant findings to ensure works have been completed. And if we turn over the page,
00:27:24 article 17, failure to maintain the fire resistance of the protected route, the route being compromised by fitting doors that did not have 30 minutes fire protection and some self-closing devices were missing. And then at the bottom of
00:27:37 were missing. And then at the bottom of that page, article 8, general fire precautions identified as significant findings in the fire risk assessment had not been implemented. My first question is this. Were you ever shown a copy of this notice, Mr. Macover?
00:27:49 this notice, Mr. Macover? No.
00:27:52 No. Uh, would you agree that it highlighted significant failings which had been identified in fire risk assessments? Yes.
00:27:59 Yes. Would you have expected the fact and substance of this notice to have been brought to your attention and swiftly after its service? Yes.
00:28:09 Yes. Was it ever brought to your attention either by Miss Johnson or anyone else in the housing department? No.
00:28:16 No. This is the deficiency. Is that right? Yeah. I never seen this. Now, if we can put that document down, um,
00:28:26 um, we know that a fire broke out at a dare Tower on Saturday the 31st of October 2015 and there was a meeting of the HS HPSC on the 5th of November 2015. And if
00:28:38 HPSC on the 5th of November 2015. And if we can go to the minutes of that meeting which are RBK04768
00:28:44 slash6 and hopefully turn to item A7 live issues reported by director of housing
00:28:54 housing and I quote this. Mr. Black provided an update on the major fire at Adair Tower which had occurred on Saturday the 31st of October on the third floor. He reported the investigation was ongoing, but the emergency planning in place had
00:29:05 but the emergency planning in place had worked and the fire doors had also worked well. He explained the timelines for tenants regaining access to their flats and the rehousing of those unable to return. The chairman stressed the
00:29:16 to return. The chairman stressed the severity of smoke damage and how that can affect one's possessions. Mr. Black said the TMO was working with tenants to ascertain what they could still use, and he said that it was compulsory for all tenants to have their own home insurance. Councelor Blakeman asked why
00:29:28 insurance. Councelor Blakeman asked why tenants were led out of smoke fil stairways and consequently had to be treated for smoke inhalation. Mr. Black explained that the policy was to stay in your flat and wait to be rescued by the natural reaction natural reaction of
00:29:40 natural reaction natural reaction of people was to flee. He said that there was no main alarm system but the fire brigade had arrived within 2 to 3 minutes. Would you agree that there is no reference there or no record of Mr.
00:29:51 no reference there or no record of Mr. Black referring to the notice of deficiency of the 12th of October? Agreed.
00:29:58 Do you think he ought to have brought that to your attention as a committee? Absolutely.
00:30:07 Now, you also mentioned in your witness statement the midyear review on TMO performance indeed adverted to it earlier on in your evidence today and that was a report prepared by Laura Johnson. And if we can go to paragraph
00:30:21 Johnson. And if we can go to paragraph 51 of your first statement which is a RBK quad trouble0 2923 slash12
00:30:36 and you'll see there you quote uh section 8.1 of the midyear review that was put before your committee by Miss Johnson.
00:30:46 Johnson. Would you agree that there's no mention of the Adair Tower fire there? Yes, there's no mention of it. Now, in evidence yesterday, when I asked Mr. Marshall about this, he indicated
00:30:57 Mr. Marshall about this, he indicated that papers for your committee tended to be circulated between seven and days 7 and 10 days beforehand. Would you agree that that's an explanation as to why there's no reference to the Adair Tower
00:31:08 there's no reference to the Adair Tower fire here? Um, yes. And also I'm seeing it's a midyear review and so it may cover a period that ends before a dare happened.
00:31:19 period that ends before a dare happened. Thank you. And there's also no mention of
00:31:24 of um deficiency notices there. Would that have been the subject of an oral update from Miss Johnson if it wasn't mentioned in the report that was put before your committee? Yes. Can you remember whether it was
00:31:35 Yes. Can you remember whether it was raised by her? I never heard it mentioned uh at all. Would it have been your expectation that it is the type of information that Miss Johnson ought to have brought to your
00:31:47 Johnson ought to have brought to your committee's attention? Uh either her or the TMO, this is this one of the most important things for us to know if there's any problem like that at all.
00:31:59 at all. Now, Miss Johnson prepared a report for uh your committee meeting on the 6th of January, 2016, and that can be found at RBK032439.
00:32:09 And if we can turn to page five of that document,
00:32:16 and it's paragraph 4.6 at the very bottom of the page, Mr. Mackover, and I shall read 4.6 and 4.7. The TMO has been advised by the LFB that the
00:32:27 has been advised by the LFB that the council TMO will be served with two enforcement notices as a result of the fire risk assessments the brigade undertook following the fire at a Dare Tower. One enforcement notice will cover a Dare Tower and one will cover
00:32:38 a Dare Tower and one will cover Hazlewood Tower. The two towers were built to the same design, having two separate staircases, one for accommodation access, the main staircase, and one for emergency, the escape staircase. 4.7 The TMO has yet to
00:32:50 escape staircase. 4.7 The TMO has yet to receive the actual notices but has been advised that the key matters of concern relate to the design of the main staircase ventilation system and the lack of self-closes on the individual flat front doors. It should be noted
00:33:01 flat front doors. It should be noted that the TMO has agreed with the council to fit self-closes to all flat front doors within both the Dare and Hazlewood towers and the fitting program has now commenced. It is expected that the notices should be received in the next
00:33:12 notices should be received in the next week or so. Did you receive Did you read that report before the meeting? Yes. Uh, what was your reaction to the prospect of the service of enforcement notices?
00:33:23 notices? I think it was the first one that I'd ever seen mentioned in the papers and and I thought this is very serious. How did it come about? Did you make as a result of that
00:33:34 Did you make as a result of that reaction, did you make any further inquiries of Miss Johnson as to how the fire risk assessments had not dealt with these matters before the fire? uh um I can't remember exactly how the
00:33:45 uh um I can't remember exactly how the full meeting went um but typically with a number of counselors there if someone else asked the question that you had in mind it wouldn't be whether I I made it
00:33:56 mind it wouldn't be whether I I made it um but certainly um it's the sort of sort of question that um that would come up
00:34:05 up my question wasn't really directed to what was asked at the meeting it was in advance of the meeting did you make any further inquiries of Miss Johnson in relation to the effectiveness of the FRA regime applied by the TMO
00:34:16 regime applied by the TMO to Miss Johnson in advance. Yeah.
00:34:18 Yeah. Uh no, I would only ever speak to officers at the meeting itself. And was that a may not be the right way of putting it. Was that a deliberate self-denying ordinance? You'd only question them in the meetings.
00:34:30 question them in the meetings. Um well, uh I don't think it was self-denying. I think it was the right forum um that it could any any questions about any issue could be um um heard by
00:34:41 about any issue could be um um heard by everybody and minuteed. Thank you. Now, Mr. Black addressed the meeting on the 6th of January 2016. And if we can go to uh RBK014534
00:34:54 slash11
00:35:01 and you see that A13 at the top of the page under the heading live issues report by director of housing fire at a dare Tower. I'll invite you to read that.
00:35:17 And this is November. Is this it? January.
00:35:20 January. January 2016. 6th of January 2016. I can take you to the front page of this if
00:35:26 if No, that's right. It was just getting chronology. Thank you.
00:35:33 Yeah. Red. Now, Mr. Black, would you agree, made it clear that the LFB's concerns weren't limited to a Darren Hazelwood Towers, but applied to the TMO estate as a whole. Would you agree with
00:35:44 estate as a whole. Would you agree with that?
00:35:45 that? Yes.
00:35:46 Yes. In light of that concern, um, what questions were put to Miss Johnson or Mr. Black about the effectiveness of the annual program of checks on tenant doors?
00:35:58 doors? I can't remember the conversation. I I don't know whether there's something in the minutes that that uh would help. We we'll come on to that. But can you remember any particular matters which
00:36:10 remember any particular matters which were raised in discussion during the course of the meeting? No. No. Did the committee consider uh asking the TMO uh to submit its proposed response
00:36:22 TMO uh to submit its proposed response to the LFB for its review before it or after it was served on the LFB? No.
00:36:28 No. Would that have been a helpful stance to take or was it something you felt was not appropriate at that stage? Um
00:36:37 Um it appeared that the um the the TMO and its advisers um were on top of the issue that the housing department was on top of the issue and
00:36:49 department was on top of the issue and uh it it may have felt to me think thinking about it that that would be quite detailed um management when there are a series of professionals um who
00:37:00 are a series of professionals um who full-time look at these things. Was there any request for the TMO to set out and confirm its writing its proposed program of responsive action to deal
00:37:11 program of responsive action to deal with the deficiencies and problems identified in the enforcement notices? No.
00:37:20 Now you assumed the chair of HPSC in 2016 I think and your first meeting was on the 13th of July 2016. Does that sound about right? Yes.
00:37:30 Yes. Now, a report was prepared by Laura Johnson for that meeting which included a section on the enforcement notices for Adair and Hazlewood Towers. And if we can go to that, it's at RBK032476.
00:37:50 And if we can look at paragraphs 1.3 and 1.4 on that first page, they're lengthy paragraphs. I'll simply invite you to read them to yourself. And could you indicate when you've done so?
00:38:01 indicate when you've done so? 1 3 and 1 14. Yes, please.
00:38:25 Yes. Now, what is apparently clear from uh those
00:38:30 uh those Sorry, did you get a chance to read? Yeah. I'd like to just check the second page. Thank you. Yeah.
00:38:34 Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:45 Okay. Would you agree that it's clear from those two paragraphs that so far as the enforcement notices are concerned uh the key points are or key concerns are the self-closing devices and ventilation
00:38:57 the self-closing devices and ventilation to staircases and lift lobbies. Is that a fair summary? Yes. Um it's also clear, would you agree, that the TMO and RBKC have agreed to ensure that all flat entrance doors were sufficiently fire rated with
00:39:09 were sufficiently fire rated with self-closing devices at Adair and Hazlewood? Again, is that a fair summary?
00:39:13 summary? Yes.
00:39:15 Yes. Now, can we look at the minutes from the meeting at which this report was presented? And those minutes can be found at RBK032473.
00:39:31 There we go. You're identified as the chair. 13th of July 2016. If we go to page five and item A9 again under the heading live issues report by director of housing, it says
00:39:44 report by director of housing, it says this. and I quote in the first paragraph referring to LFB enforcement notices. Councelor Nichols asked whether the council complies at other locations. Mrs. Johnson confirmed that this was so, but said that all blocks were different,
00:39:56 but said that all blocks were different, although door closes were uniformly fitted. She added that the council would ensure that the required works to a Darren Hazlewood Towers were carried out. The council would robustly defend itself against LFB action as it had done
00:40:08 itself against LFB action as it had done all it could in the circumstances. Now, Laura Johnson appeared to confirm to your committee that RBKC complied with the items specified in the enforcement notice at other locations.
00:40:20 enforcement notice at other locations. First of all, is that your recollection of what you reported to the committee in July 2016? Yes.
00:40:27 Yes. Did that uh fit was that consistent with the report the substant report that Mr. Black had made to your committee?
00:40:38 Um
00:40:43 uh sometimes well just thinking about it they're not talking about exactly the same thing and just yeah it maybe well be if we leave this page up on the screen could I
00:40:56 leave this page up on the screen could I ask another one to be put alongside and that's RBK trouble014534
00:41:03 slash11
00:41:10 And if we look at A13
00:41:16 in particular, the last three lines, Mr. Black confirmed this would be done for a Dare Tower and Hazlewood Tower, but the notice related to all estates, which would need to be looked at in conjunction with the council. Mr. Black's report seems to be more
00:41:27 Black's report seems to be more caveatted and less emphatic than Miss Johnson's. Is that a a fair comment on what you heard? Yeah. And this is at the same the same date, the same meeting. Yes.
00:41:36 Yes. Would you agree with that? Yes.
00:41:43 Laura Johnson goes on to say that the council would robustly defend itself against LFB action. Uh did that statement give you cause for concern at the time? Um it it did slightly stick
00:41:54 the time? Um it it did slightly stick out because um um it wasn't exactly clear to me um what LFB action would be if we were
00:42:05 um what LFB action would be if we were if the council and the TMO were going ahead and and uh and complying with all the with all the requirements. her focus appears to be on defending LFB
00:42:16 her focus appears to be on defending LFB action
00:42:17 action um as opposed to remedying the problems identified in the enforcement notices. Is that a fair summary of how she reported matters to you at the time in
00:42:28 reported matters to you at the time in January 2016?
00:42:32 Um I don't remember the exact words said but when when the minutes are read at the subsequent meeting um um I don't I don't think me or anybody else disagreed
00:42:43 don't think me or anybody else disagreed with it. So I I I take the minutes as correct. Um could we um put both of those documents down and turn to paragraph 62 of your witness statement uh RBK0292316
00:43:02 and you refer there to a paper presented to the 16th of November 2016 HPSC meeting which stated that all of the works required by the enforcement notices had been carried out. Now, if we
00:43:14 notices had been carried out. Now, if we can go to RBK032475,
00:43:19 we should have the minutes of that November 2016 meeting.
00:43:30 Now, those minutes, uh, Mr. Mack, we can go through them if you'd like, but those minutes, there's no mention of that particular aspect of Laura Johnson's, um, report, i.e. that all the work had
00:43:43 um, report, i.e. that all the work had been carried out or fire safety more generally. Can we read into the absence of any reference that the committee was satisfied with what had been done and there was no further discussion of
00:43:54 there was no further discussion of either of those points? Yes.
00:43:57 Yes. Now you also mentioned if we can put down the minutes you also mentioned at par 62 of your witness statement that the TMO midyear review report was prepared for that meeting the November 2016 meeting.
00:44:09 2016 meeting. Was that the last report you had before the fire on the 14th of June 2017? I think so. Now, if we can stay in your witness
00:44:21 Now, if we can stay in your witness statement, but go to paragraph 65, which is at page 17, just over the page,
00:44:29 you say there just to confirm that um I believe that this was the last report from the TMO management before the Granful Tower fire.
00:44:39 This report provided assurance to HPSC members that the TMO is working with the relevant authorities and specialists to manage fire safety across the estate. I was not aware of any outstanding issues or concerns at any TMO property.
00:44:52 or concerns at any TMO property. By that, do you mean you weren't aware of any concerns issues as at the 16th of November 2016? Yes.
00:45:02 Did you have any concerns about uh the extent to which the TMO RBKC had satisfied the LFB's concerns about self-closes for example?
00:45:15 self-closes for example? um I went on the asurances that they were fitted and that the works that were were were done at Adair in Hazlewood. Uh therefore I took I took that and the audit report and the health and safety
00:45:26 audit report and the health and safety report details as um satisfying and particularly absent any further concerns reported to you. Yeah. Can I now turn to the deficiency notice that was served by the LFB in
00:45:38 notice that was served by the LFB in relation to Grenell Tower on the 17th of November 2016? So the day after your meeting and just so that you can familiarize yourself with the document, it can be found at TMO1017254.
00:45:58 And if we could turn to page five,
00:46:05 you'll see there set out a series of identified deficiencies. And just going through them briefly. Article 11, multiple items in common parts. Several fire doors did not fit fully into their
00:46:16 fire doors did not fit fully into their frames and there was a breach in the services duct. Article 17, several fire doors didn't fit fully into the frame. Article 17, again, the protected route had been compromised by the fitting of
00:46:28 had been compromised by the fitting of doors that didn't close. Flats 44 and 153 were checked and did not self-close. Article 14, emergency routes or exits were inadequate in that there were various items stored in the common
00:46:39 various items stored in the common parts. Article 14, again, emergency routes were inadequate and that two doors did not self-close. Article 8, smoke spread precautions were inadequate due to a breach and services ducted on
00:46:51 due to a breach and services ducted on the eighth floor. And finally, article 15, fire not fire action notices hadn't been displayed. My first question is, were you aware of the fact or the substance of this notice of deficiency?
00:47:02 substance of this notice of deficiency? No. Again, is this the type of issue that you would have expected to have been reported to your committee either by Miss Johnson or Mr. Black? Absolutely.
00:47:14 Absolutely. Would you agree it's now beyond doubt that the LFB were concerned at self-closes now in numerous uh TMO high-rise buildings? Well, certainly this one in front of us.
00:47:25 Well, certainly this one in front of us. I don't know about any of the others. And if we can go back to page one of this notice,
00:47:33 you'll see there at the end of the first paragraph the recommendation that action should be taken by 18th of May 2017. Given that deadline, would you agree that time was relatively speaking of the
00:47:46 that time was relatively speaking of the essence?
00:47:47 essence? Yes. Not just time, but but any of the risks like this should have been sorted out absolutely top priority. Could we now turn to your meeting on the 4th of May 2017?
00:47:59 May 2017? Now before that meeting, a fire had broken out in Trellic Tower on the 19th of April 2017. And that's the fire you were referring to earlier on in your evidence.
00:48:08 evidence. Yeah.
00:48:09 Yeah. Now Laura Johnson prepared a report on that fire um for the meeting and you refer to the conclusion of that report at paragraph 66 of your first witness statement.
00:48:25 And it says there paragraph 7.1. In conclusion, whilst it is always a concern to have had a fire, what is clear in the review of the incident to date is that all the work undertaken by the TMO to ensure adequate fire
00:48:37 the TMO to ensure adequate fire procedures and fire safety systems at this block worked well on the day. Additionally, partnership working with RBKC and the London Fire Brigade had a positive impact on minimizing the disruption to residents, enabling them
00:48:48 disruption to residents, enabling them to return to their homes within two hours of the fire. work to support the displaced resident is ongoing and further liaison with the LFP is also ongoing. And if we turn over the stay
00:48:59 ongoing. And if we turn over the stay with your statement but go to paragraph 67,
00:49:04 you say this in the opening sentence. It is my recollection that HPSC expressed frustration that the fire door issue across the state had not been completely resolved.
00:49:17 First of all, did you yourself express your frustration with this state uh to Miss Johnson or Mr. Black or both at the committee? Yes. Which other counselors expressed
00:49:28 Which other counselors expressed frustration with the position? Uh certainly uh um I think there was one or there may have been more than one more. Not everyone is always reported in the in the minutes if if if they're
00:49:40 the in the minutes if if if they're saying roughly the same thing. Is it fair to say that the majority of your committee were frustrated with the situation? Yes. Can we turn to those minutes?
00:49:51 Yes. Can we turn to those minutes? RBK0524
00:49:55 647.
00:50:04 There we go. Update on fire and Trellic Tower. The committee received a report with an overview of the fire that took place at Trek Tower on 19th of April 2017 on the 27th floor. And if we go to
00:50:15 2017 on the 27th floor. And if we go to the fourth paragraph there, the committee queried progress on the program to install fire doors between flats and corridors and asked if all leaseolder doors have now been changed. In response, Miss Ray said that all 1200
00:50:27 In response, Miss Ray said that all 1200 tenative properties have had fire doors installed, but some lease holders were refusing to engage. She went on to state that the fire brigade presumably were hoping for case law to make lease holders to install fire doors. And then
00:50:40 holders to install fire doors. And then the committee request a paper providing an update on the fire door installation program on the council's housing estate and sent a strong message that as landlords we need to make every reasonable effort possible to have all
00:50:51 reasonable effort possible to have all leaseolder doors replaced. The minutes go on to record this. Councelor Condan Simmons praised the TMO for their efforts to install fire doors at Thomas Moore estate and said that only four doors were outstanding.
00:51:03 only four doors were outstanding. Councelor Blakeman pointed out that the report did not mentioned that the ward counselors were present on the day of the fire to provide reassurance to the community. She also pointed out that not every floor had fire safety instructions. Mr. Miss Johnson said she
00:51:16 instructions. Mr. Miss Johnson said she would ask to TMO to check that every floor had fire instructions. Now you mentioned HPSC frustration that the door related issues
00:51:27 frustration that the door related issues had not been resolved by this stage. Do these minutes accurately and fully reflect the extent of the frustration expressed by members of your committee?
00:51:38 expressed by members of your committee? Uh not
00:51:41 Uh not accurate. Well, they're not there's nothing inaccurate other than uh but but not full enough. I think there is the word strong uh in there somewhere and I think that would begin to capture how I
00:51:53 think that would begin to capture how I felt and others um felt on hearing that this still wasn't solved. Could you help you're telling us really that the minute the strength of feeling? Yeah. And whether whether we were
00:52:06 Yeah. And whether whether we were whether we were being um polite and that and that's how it's recorded. But the feeling um um must have must must I
00:52:17 feeling um um must have must must I could must have um got across to everybody. Can you help the panel give us the gist of what was missing from these minutes in terms of the your committee's uh feelings about the situation?
00:52:30 uh feelings about the situation? I think the the argument went um um how can this still be outstanding? we keep getting assurances that we're solved. Um uh that the issues are solved. Um that um if
00:52:44 the issues are solved. Um that um if it's down to just one or two doors as it was I think dating back 2 years uh when I suggested can't we can't the council just pay for them to be done if there's
00:52:56 just pay for them to be done if there's an argument about it because it must be less cost than enforcement action. Um um this is a risk for everyone. It seems like a clear instruction. We keep having
00:53:07 like a clear instruction. We keep having this issue come up. There's nothing more important. You requested a paper. You made a strong message regarding the importance of the replacement of leaseolder doors. Was
00:53:19 replacement of leaseolder doors. Was there any discussion about whether any further measures were required by your committee to ensure this issue was fully uh resolved? For example, setting up a working group. Uh I don't think there was any policy
00:53:32 Uh I don't think there was any policy question about this. There was a very clear instruction that it should be done. um a working group typically takes uh you know on average a year there are maybe three meetings and it bottoms out
00:53:43 maybe three meetings and it bottoms out new issues. This seemed to be absolutely crystal clear. Get this stuff done. And so it's fair to say that neither Miss Johnson nor Mr. Black could have been under any misapprehension as to uh
00:53:54 been under any misapprehension as to uh your concerns and your instructions. That's right. And and also by this stage because I
00:54:01 because I must have started to be concerned that we didn't drop any issues. I had started an issues tracking sheet where every request that the committee had made for
00:54:13 request that the committee had made for officers to answer was put onto this tracking sheet and was kept on the tracking sheet until it had been answered. And the tracking sheet, was that an informal tool you made for your own use and the use of your committee or
00:54:24 own use and the use of your committee or was it something that was held uh by the council?
00:54:27 council? Um I made officers do it, governance do it and it was just a better way of tracking actions when they appeared in minutes so they didn't get lost from every two months when another meeting
00:54:38 every two months when another meeting took place and updates on progress would be provided for each meeting based on the tracking sheet information. Yes, the tracking sheet would be presented at each meeting and when an issue was concluded it would be grayed
00:54:50 issue was concluded it would be grayed the the boxes would be grayed out and otherwise it would stay as a live report due. Now the discussions at the HPSC meeting in May
00:55:01 discussions at the HPSC meeting in May prompted email correspondence between Mr. Black and Miss Johnson that can be found at RBK quadruple 02340.
00:55:14 Now, you weren't copied in and it's improbable you would have seen this chain before, but could I ask us to go to page two and the trigger email is one sent by
00:55:27 and the trigger email is one sent by Robert Black to Laura Johnson on the 17th of May 2017 0831 hours.
00:55:34 hours. Dear Laura, and I quote, just a quick one, councelor CDS, who just audience doubt, who's CDS? Um,
00:55:47 could be condom simmons. I don't know. Another
00:55:50 Another uh another one with those sorts of initials
00:55:53 initials said yesterday that councelor I think Macover um was being very negative about the tmo at some conservative party meeting the other night. This seemed to stem from something at scrutiny. He was
00:56:04 stem from something at scrutiny. He was worried about leaseholder doors and said we were not doing something. It was all a bit vague but a bit of general chatter about how we are not performing in this area. Speaking to Barbara, she seemed as confused about what the issue is. What
00:56:16 confused about what the issue is. What would you recommend? Do nothing. Contact him and see if he wants to talk this through or ask to meet him together to discuss it. I know he does not see you, but your advice and views welcome. Pausing there, do you recall whether
00:56:28 Pausing there, do you recall whether you'd been very negative quotes about the tmo at a Conservative Party meeting at about that time? Um it was ne there would never take place at a party meeting of any sort. This was at uh the
00:56:39 meeting of any sort. This was at uh the scrutiny meeting. That was the one that I was describing. And but the focus of your uh concern was leaseolder doors was all uh all non non-performing um um
00:56:53 was all uh all non non-performing um um fire safety measures for Thank you. And if we can now look further up the page that we're on, we have Laura Johnson's response.
00:57:04 Robert and she clarifies the position. This comes from scrutiny committee in the table at the paper that we tabled on trellic fire. They completely failed to ask any questions about trellic and
00:57:15 ask any questions about trellic and instead focused on what councelor Pascal knew about which is the issue we had reported on regularly for the previous two years which was leaseolder doors and the project that TMO had ran very successfully on getting lease holders to change their doors. Councelor Mackover
00:57:28 change their doors. Councelor Mackover instead of saying to councelor Pres presumably Pascal, "Can we please go back to the paper we've tabled on Trellic, then joined in asking Janice and Barbara questions about leaseholder doors?" They answered honestly and said,
00:57:40 doors?" They answered honestly and said, "No, not all doors will comply. We have a rolling program of compliance and regular checks. This then horrified them both and they asked for a report to be to brought back on this issue to a subsequent scrutiny committee." The
00:57:52 subsequent scrutiny committee." The questioning only stopped when I reminded him that the paper was on trellic and Janice had come to answer questions on that rather than leaseolder doors. So in short, councelor Mackover knows nothing
00:58:03 short, councelor Mackover knows nothing about this issue. Councelor Pascal only knows what he can recollect from two years ago. Both are of the view that the council should pay to replace lease holder doors regardless of whether we would be reimbursed as this would be
00:58:14 would be reimbursed as this would be safer for the block in case of fire. We've been through this before and I refuse to open this up again as a subject for council of Pascal to dwell on. We therefore just need to get your team to do an update on leaseold doors
00:58:26 team to do an update on leaseold doors and perhaps door closes part of the annual report you do to scrutiny in September on TMO performance. I wouldn't contact councelor Pascal or Macover on this. It's a non-issue that they are trying to turn into something because
00:58:38 trying to turn into something because we've reported on it before. I think we should take back an update on health and safety to the September meeting. My first question is
00:58:49 My first question is whether Miss Johnson's summary of your views and those of councelor Pascal is an accurate summary of what was discussed at the meeting. I don't think it's uh comprehensive
00:59:01 I don't think it's uh comprehensive enough. Um can I make a few comments on that? Please do. Yeah. Um first the first thing is that um saying
00:59:12 first the first thing is that um saying we failed to ask questions. Um when something that's presented to us is um clear and satisfactory, it doesn't mean we ask it doesn't mean we ask questions
00:59:24 we ask it doesn't mean we ask questions on that. We might take a learning from that and apply it as we had done in this case to uh the rest of the the rest of the um TMO estate. So it's not wrong for
00:59:35 the um TMO estate. So it's not wrong for us not to question something. It is I think it's a very good thing to say how does then there this risk apply elsewhere. Um because we had not seen at uh various updates any more doubts that
00:59:49 uh various updates any more doubts that there were door closer issues or fire door issues both tenant and leaseholder. Um it uh certainly reports uh councelor Pascal and and and and myself being very
01:00:01 Pascal and and and and myself being very concerned that this was uh not solved and it seemed to be contrary to um the audit reports and the and and uh and and the other uh um halfyear updates. Um and
01:00:14 the other uh um halfyear updates. Um and that's that is correct that we wanted a report back um urgently to um conclude all of this. Um, and as soon as we had
01:00:25 all of this. Um, and as soon as we had made that request, that's when the questioning stopped because it doesn't matter whether the paper's on Trello or not. We can ask whatever we want and nothing would stop us from asking asking what's relevant. She said that uh you were horrified
01:00:36 She said that uh you were horrified quotes about the situation relation to doors. Would that be would you accept that as a fair characterization of your action at the time? Yeah, it was it was contrary to what we had been told and
01:00:48 contrary to what we had been told and what we were reading. And we can take it that and we were annoyed that and we can take it that you disagreed with Miss Johnson's view that the question of doors was a non-issue.
01:01:00 the question of doors was a non-issue. That is surprising that she could say that because we spent so many times on the committee talking talking about doors. I don't know what she would mean by that.
01:01:11 by that. And having now seen this email chain, um, what would be your reaction to the attitude that Miss Johnson displayed to the question of leaseolds at the time? I
01:01:22 the question of leaseolds at the time? I I I find this the whole email very surprising because um I always regarded her and her department as uh um very you know constructive and uh responsive and
01:01:36 know constructive and uh responsive and and uh and a high definitely a high quality officer and her reports were always
01:01:43 always um seemed to be giving us the information that we were asking for. So this is this is a um a departure from that.
01:01:54 um a departure from that. Can I ask you now to turn to TMO executive team minutes uh where uh this issue is discussed and I can ask you go to TMO89437
01:02:12 and you see that's an executive team meeting at the TMO. obvious reasons you would not be there on the 17th of May 2017. And if we go to item 2.6 on the first page under the
01:02:23 item 2.6 on the first page under the heading fire at trellic sorry over the page
01:02:32 um RB Robert Black noted that councelor Macover has been disparaging about the TMO over fire doors. RB has spoken to Laura about this RB case as RBKC are clear that they do not want us inspecting flat front doors. Councelor
01:02:44 inspecting flat front doors. Councelor Mackover is saying that we should be constantly reviewing the fire doors. BM Barbara Matthews noted, "We have Carl carrying out FRA and the LFB conducting audits and they will pick up any doors not compliant." RB asked if Janice could
01:02:57 not compliant." RB asked if Janice could write a briefing note on what we did on the program, what was agreed with RBKC completed, and what we do now. It was agreed that Janice would include this update in the annual health and safety report, which will go to board in July and to Laura. After that, we've been
01:03:09 and to Laura. After that, we've been informed that councelor Blakeman has been disparaging about the TMO in public forums.
01:03:15 forums. Would you accept the characterization that you've been quote disparaging close quotes about the TMO on the subject of Fles?
01:03:22 Fles? I I don't know whether that's uh that's a correct
01:03:27 a correct whether that's the correct word. Um but um you know frustration and disappointment is is how I was feeling u it. Now this minute gives a little more
01:03:38 it. Now this minute gives a little more detail as to the attitude of Laura Johnson and RBKC i.e that they do not want the TMO uh to inspect uh flat front
01:03:49 want the TMO uh to inspect uh flat front doors to make sure they have closes. Um were you aware that was Laura Johnson alternatively RBKC's position on the question of inspection? Not at all.
01:04:04 Is it fair to say that your view was that the TMO ought to be constantly reviewing the fire doors? Yes, that looks right.
01:04:24 And at this stage, is it fair to say that you had in mind the risk presented to residents by having continuing problems over flat front entrance doors? Yes, this was it was not just a theory.
01:04:36 Yes, this was it was not just a theory. We had had at reports uh for from Adair and from Trellik that that um that fire doors and door closes um were vital and
01:04:49 doors and door closes um were vital and uh and obviously what had been picked up in uh um enforcement notices on Darren Hazelwood as well. Now, given
01:05:01 Now, given the documents I've taken you through, particularly the email correspondence between Miss Johnson and Mr. Black and seeing this item of discussion, the fire at Trellik, if you'd known these matters then, would you have done anything
01:05:13 then, would you have done anything differently in discharge of your functions on the scrutiny committee? I think I um me and the whole committee would have raised it not just with the
01:05:25 would have raised it not just with the the cabinet member um but the leader in the town cler as well. It's it's it's the
01:05:31 the um clearest indication that what we were asking about and being reassured about was not the uh was not not the case away
01:05:44 was not the uh was not not the case away from the committee. Um, would you have expected
01:05:48 expected a greater degree of cander from Miss Johnson in setting out to you her views and those of her department in relation to an inspection regime of flat front entrance doors?
01:05:59 entrance doors? Yeah, as I said, I I thought she and her department were were, you know, very high quality and very helpful. And um it couldn't possibly occur to me that that
01:06:11 couldn't possibly occur to me that that what we were being told um um and this could be the same department or the same issue.
01:06:21 issue. This would appear to be an example of the limitations of scrutiny in the sense that your committee was dependent upon the sufficiency and adequacy of the information with which you were provided. Is that a fair observation?
01:06:33 provided. Is that a fair observation? Um yes and I would go maybe slightly further than that which is it had been um a a concern of mine. I I obviously I don't have any experience at other
01:06:44 don't have any experience at other councils of of of this um but that we were reliant on resource from the same uh officers that we were asking
01:06:55 the same uh officers that we were asking questions about and I think I had been directed or was aware of of something when I I may have asked early on or in early early on in training, do we have a
01:07:07 early early on in training, do we have a resource? Do we have researchers? um and told no the it's it's it's um it's it makes sense for the officers who are doing the subject to also
01:07:19 who are doing the subject to also support you and I accepted that because it meant that you were dealing with people who knew exactly the subject area that you were after. Um but this may be
01:07:31 that you were after. Um but this may be an example of where um a separation of support could have been helpful. Mr. Makover, I've reached the end of my
01:07:42 Makover, I've reached the end of my prepared questions. The chairman allows me 15 minutes to consider whether I've covered everything with you. Sir, may I have that 15 minutes now? Yes. Well, as Mr. Kog explained we have
01:07:54 Yes. Well, as Mr. Kog explained we have a break at this point to make sure that he's covered the questions that he thinks he needs to cover and also to allow others who are not present in the room but who are following from elsewhere to suggest questions that they
01:08:06 elsewhere to suggest questions that they think perhaps should be asked. So we'll take a break now um I think quarter an hour will do it or just over so we'll come back at 25 11 and see if there are
01:08:17 come back at 25 11 and see if there are any more questions for you at that point. All right. Thank you. And uh so I'm going to ask you to go with the usher and please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it while you're away from the room. I don't think you'll
01:08:29 away from the room. I don't think you'll have much chance. If you do, don't take it.
01:08:31 it. Thank you. All right. Yes. Thank you very much.
01:08:46 Right, Mr. 25. Thanks, sir. Thank you. [Applause]
01:26:28 Would you ask Mr. Mack over to come back in please?
01:26:41 All right, Mr. Mackover, let's see if there are any more questions for you. Yes, Mr. Ket. Thanks, sir. Um, first of all, Makover, a clarification. I think during the course of my examination of you I said that two documents were uh prepared for
01:26:52 that two documents were uh prepared for the same meeting which is RBK014534
01:26:57 and RBK0032473.
01:27:00 Uh in fact the first was dated the 6th of January 2016. The second was dated the 13th of July 2016. But I've discussed matters with m Mr. Maxwell Scott and I don't think I need to ask you any further clarificatory questions
01:27:12 you any further clarificatory questions arising from that. But can I just apologize for giving you a a misleading impression? and they were from the same meeting. Um, that leads just to one final question. Is there anything else you'd like to tell the panel that you
01:27:25 you'd like to tell the panel that you haven't said during the course of your evidence today? Um I you know looking looking back on this it it it it seems that we would all
01:27:36 this it it it it seems that we would all have benefited on the committee from having uh the health and safety team uh uh on and maybe with visits from the the Burough Fire Commander on the um housing
01:27:49 Burough Fire Commander on the um housing property scrutiny committee because there seem to be um a gap between um our you practical question answering and the policy framework that that we um didn't
01:28:04 policy framework that that we um didn't have awareness of. Um on a personal on a personal note, I just want to express my my my sorrow and my sympathy uh for for residents and for
01:28:15 sympathy uh for for residents and for anybody else affected by this uh tragedy uh and hope that everything that can happen now means that can never happen again.
01:28:24 again. Mr. Mr. Macover, that just leads me to thank you for attending today to give evidence.
01:28:29 evidence. Yes. Well, Mr. Mccover, I should thank you very much on behalf of panel all of us for your coming to give evidence in this way. It is really very helpful to us to hear what you have to tell us
01:28:40 us to hear what you have to tell us about your own involvement and the activities of the scrutiny committee and we're very grateful to you for coming along. So, thank you very much indeed. Thank you.
01:28:51 Thank you. Yes. Yes. Would you like to give the usher then please
01:29:04 now Mr. Can what what do we do next? The next item on your agenda today is reading in of evidence from the bereieved survivors and residents. Um right sir to allow necessary
01:29:15 right sir to allow necessary arrangements to take place because I will not be reading that in. Um, I'd ask you to rise albe it briefly so the cleaning and all the rest of it can be completed and then that can start. I'm just wondering whether we do need
01:29:26 I'm just wondering whether we do need it. Won't take very long to do that. It won't, but I think in the past we traditionally have, but I'm entirely in your hands as to whether you want to sit here whilst it's done or rise and wait for it to be done. Well, all right. We'll give you all a
01:29:37 Well, all right. We'll give you all a break from our presence. How's that? And we'll rise for as short a time as it takes to do the usual I'm grateful. Thank you. Right.
01:34:04 Yes, Mr. And I understand you're going to read some material. That's correct. Benefit of the panel and the public. Indeed.
01:34:11 Indeed. Good. Thank you very much. Now, we would now like to read into the record extracts from a number of BSR statements which concern fire safety advice. We do this against the background of the evidence on this issue
01:34:23 background of the evidence on this issue that the inquiry has already received in both phase one and from the BSR witnesses that were recently called in this module. I propose to begin with the statement of Muhammad Razul inquiry
01:34:34 statement of Muhammad Razul inquiry reference IWS 401 1768.
01:34:41 Now Mr. Razul lived in flat 25 with his wife Manira Mammud, their children and his elderly father Abdul al- Razul. Mrs. Mammud gave oral evidence during the phase one hearings. She told you, Mr.
01:34:53 phase one hearings. She told you, Mr. Chairman, that her father-in-law suffers from dementia. I propose to pick up Mr. Rizzle's statement at page 2, paragraph 4, where he explains that his parents became
01:35:04 he explains that his parents became tenants in Grenell Tower in 1980 with the family moving into flat 25 in 1994. And then if we go to the next page, page three at paragraph 13, I will begin
01:35:16 three at paragraph 13, I will begin reading from that paragraph. No one from the TMO or RBKC ever spoke to us about fire safety. I am not aware of any fire drills having taken place in
01:35:27 of any fire drills having taken place in the tower. At some point in or around 2004, we were given a copy of the TMO tenants handbook and he has exhibited it MR6.
01:35:37 MR6. The handbook included a page on fire safety and security. See page 25 of exhibit MR6. But no one had brought this to our attention. Although the handbook had some very brief information about
01:35:49 had some very brief information about preventing fires, it had no information about what we should do if a fire broke out in our flat or in the tower. It does not mention the fire strategy for the building. I'm not sure if every resident
01:36:00 building. I'm not sure if every resident was given a copy of the handbook. He continues on the next page. We also received copies of the TMO's link magazine, but I assumed this was more like a notice board and would not
01:36:12 more like a notice board and would not contain any important information. No one ever warned us that it might, so I never read it. I would have also assumed that any important information, such as fire safety, would have been
01:36:23 such as fire safety, would have been brought to our attention in a more direct way, such as a letter addressed to us. The only information I saw about the fire strategy for the building was on a fire safety notice, which is by the lifts on the ground floor. I think the
01:36:35 lifts on the ground floor. I think the notice was put up after the refurbishment. It was about A5 size and easy to miss. It was only on the ground floor. As I stated in my phase one statement, the notice was in English and I'm not aware of it having been made
01:36:47 I'm not aware of it having been made available in any other format for those with special needs. The notice said that in case of a fire, unless the fire was in your own flat, you should remain in your flat until you evacuated out of the
01:36:58 your flat until you evacuated out of the building. The notice did not give any information about the assembly point if the tower was evacuated. I believe that it also said not to use the lifts if there was a fire in the building and to use the stairs instead. I will stop
01:37:11 use the stairs instead. I will stop reading there. The next statement is that of Mr. Nicholas Burton and this is inquiry reference IWS 41661.
01:37:23 This is the phase 2 statement of Mr. Burton. He gave oral evidence during phase one hearings. Mr. Burton lived in flat 165 of Grenful Tower with his wife Maria Dalpar Burton known as Pilly. Mr.
01:37:35 Maria Dalpar Burton known as Pilly. Mr. Mr. Burton lived in the tower from 1984, but his wife was a tenant from about 1975, and they became lease holders in 1994.
01:37:44 1994. Pilly Burton survived the fire, but died on 29 January 2018. I propose to begin from page three and pick up a statement at paragraph 10.
01:37:56 pick up a statement at paragraph 10. We did receive written information about the stayput policy. I think this would have been in certain TMO newsletters, but I cannot remember when we received these. I was aware of the concept of
01:38:07 these. I was aware of the concept of compartmentation, so I could see why it would make sense to stay where we were in the event of a fire because it should be contained. When I worked in hospitals, we were told that the different wards with different compartments. So, in the event of a
01:38:19 compartments. So, in the event of a fire, we were supposed to evacuate if the ward we were in was one was the one affected. But we were otherwise in theory safe to spa stay where we were. We never nevertheless undertook ward
01:38:31 We never nevertheless undertook ward evacuations with patients so that we were fully prepared. Even during the fire, remember thinking that staying where we were was the best thing to do. And this was backed up by the advice that I was being given by the LFB during
01:38:42 that I was being given by the LFB during the emergency calls that I made. I really did not know how bad it was until I looked over to the north side of the side of the tower and saw lots of blue lights. All the traffic stopping on the
01:38:53 lights. All the traffic stopping on the motorway and the reflection of the blaze on the glass front to the school. I do remember seeing the new fire safety signs at the lifts. I remember I went down to other floors to check that the new signs have been put up there, too.
01:39:05 new signs have been put up there, too. We discussed this at a GTLA meeting, but if I remember rightly, it was more about the delay in them putting up the signs than the nature of the advice. And this is where I propose to stop with
01:39:17 And this is where I propose to stop with Mr. Burton's statement. The next statement I turn to is that of Mustafa Abdu and the reference is IWS41956.
01:39:30 Mr. Abdu lived at flat 184 of Granful Tower and this was on the 21st floor. I proposed to pick up his statement on page 6 at paragraph 26. There's the heading fire safety signage
01:39:43 There's the heading fire safety signage and Mr. Abdu said, "I do not remember there being any fire safety signage before the refurbishment. The first fire safety signage I remember were signs advising on the stayput policy. These were in the lift and lobby corridors at
01:39:55 were in the lift and lobby corridors at the tower. I remember from this that in the case of fire, you should not use the lift and should go back to your room and shut the doors and windows." And then if we move forward to page 6, paragraph 41,
01:40:06 we move forward to page 6, paragraph 41, I will then pick up a statement again
01:40:12 where there's a subheading, fire safety advice. And he said, I have lived at the tower for 27 years and I never remember receiving any advice about fire safety.
01:40:23 receiving any advice about fire safety. I did not feel at the time that we were properly briefed or trained about fire safety either. On next page, he continues, "I do not recall any fire safety officer talking to me about fire safety in the tower. My
01:40:35 to me about fire safety in the tower. My solicitors have asked me whether I remember anything about the resident magazine Link. I cannot remember ever hearing about Link, and despite talking to others, I cannot ever remember them mentioning the link magazine either. It
01:40:47 mentioning the link magazine either. It seemed to me that no one was aware of it. I do not remember ever receiving any newsletters during the refurbishment period about fire safety advice. I will usually look at my mail and read it if it comes through the door, so I cannot
01:40:59 it comes through the door, so I cannot imagine that I would have missed it. The only advice I remember is the plastic stayput signs set up in the lift and lobby area. In the event of a fire, I thought I had to go to my flat and remain in there with my doors and
01:41:10 remain in there with my doors and windows shut because that is what the signs in the lobby and lift area said. And that's where I proposed to stop. I will then pick up with uh the statement of Rebecca Ross and the
01:41:21 statement of Rebecca Ross and the statement references IWS 401826.
01:41:33 Miss Ross lived in flat 122 on the 15th floor of Grenful Tower with her father Steven Power and her brother Bobby Ross and their three dogs. Miss Ross was 22
01:41:44 and their three dogs. Miss Ross was 22 years old at the time of the fire. Her father had moved into Grumple Tower in 1985 and he died on the night of the fire. I proposed to pick up her statement at page 8, paragraph 35.
01:41:59 There's the heading at the bottom of the page, fire safety in Grenful Tower. And Miss Ross says, "As stated above, my understanding was that the TMO had overall responsibility for fire safety
01:42:10 overall responsibility for fire safety within the tower, but I knew that RBKC owned the tower and was the landlord." She continues at the next page. I was not aware at the time that there was a stay put policy in place at Grenle Tower. There may have been signs in the
01:42:22 Tower. There may have been signs in the lift lobbies about this, but this was not something that I took notice of, so I didn't know we had this policy or what it meant. I have never taken part in a fire drill at Grenell Tower, so I didn't have any experience of what to do in
01:42:33 have any experience of what to do in case of a fire. In the time that I lived there, there were only a few small fires which never spread out of the flat in which they started. If I had needed to evacuate the tower, I wouldn't have known to go to a designated place
01:42:45 known to go to a designated place outside. I remember receiving a magazine called Link through my front door. However, I wouldn't have known that there was uh any information in there about fire safety. It mainly contained
01:42:56 about fire safety. It mainly contained information about events going on in the community. I wouldn't have known to look in there for fire safety information. I propose to stop reading there. I would note that Bobby Ross has also provided a
01:43:07 note that Bobby Ross has also provided a phase 2 statement the reference for which is IWS42356.
01:43:14 The next statement we will go to is that of Maria Jafari and that reference is IWS41815.
01:43:26 Miss Jafari lived in flat 86 on the 11th floor with her father Ali Yawar Jafari. Her mother Fatima and her sister Nadia. Nadia Jafari gave evidence during phase
01:43:37 Nadia Jafari gave evidence during phase one and her father Ali Yawar Jafari died during the fire. Flat 86 was leased by the Notting Hill Trust. Although the Jafari family were designated as temporary residents, they
01:43:48 designated as temporary residents, they had lived in Grenful Tower since March 2003.
01:43:52 2003. I propose to pick up her statement at page 6, paragraph 22, where Mr. uh Mr. Jafari has addressed fire safety under the heading at the top of the page.
01:44:03 the heading at the top of the page. She says, "Nobody ever spoke to us about what to do in the event of a fire. We never took part in a fire drill and we were never given any information about where the assembly point would be if the building was evacuated. We were not
01:44:15 building was evacuated. We were not warned about the lifts or told what to do or how to get out if a fire broke out. If there was a fire in our flat or next door, I would have simply left the building. From undertaking fire drills
01:44:26 building. From undertaking fire drills at college, I knew that in the event of a fire, I was supposed to leave the building. I never heard of stay put. I remember that there was a fire before the refurbishment, but did not hear a fire alarm. I never heard a fire alarm
01:44:38 fire alarm. I never heard a fire alarm go off in the communal parts of the tower in the 14 years that I lived in the tower. I think there was a fire sign next to the lifts, but I do not recall reading it or understanding it. Nothing was translated or explained in person.
01:44:51 was translated or explained in person. And that's where I propose to stop with this statement. The next statement is that of Zoe Dayton and this is reference IWS
01:45:02 and this is reference IWS 401974.
01:45:07 Zoe Daintton has made a phase 2 statement and she lived in flat 12 of the fourth floor of Grenful Tower with her mother Jenny Daintton and her sister Leah Weekes. Miss Donington's then partner, David Benjamin, sometimes
01:45:19 partner, David Benjamin, sometimes stayed at the flat as well. I proposed to pick up her statement at page three, paragraph 15. And we can see Mr. Dayton said, "As already stated in paragraph 13 and 50 of
01:45:31 already stated in paragraph 13 and 50 of my phase 1 statement, I recall fire safety signs telling you to stay put inside your flat in the event of a fire, unless the fire was inside your flat, in which case you should leave." The sign
01:45:42 which case you should leave." The sign also said not to use the lifts, but I was never told this verbally by anyone in an official capacity. I saw this sign on the ground floor and fourth floor while waiting for the lifts. I think
01:45:53 while waiting for the lifts. I think these signs were on every floor and were there before the refurbishment. I did not really understand how stay put was supposed to work in practice, but I did not speak to anyone about this at RBKC
01:46:04 not speak to anyone about this at RBKC or the TMO. I will stop reading there but I note that David Benjamin has given a phase 2 statement which is with reference IWS 401764.
01:46:18 The next statement that I will turn to is that of Lorraine Beedle and the reference is IWS 401
01:46:27 401 1872.
01:46:34 Lorraine Beedle lived in flat 13 of Grenful Tower since 1976. I proposed to pick up her statement at page two, paragraph 8.
01:46:46 page two, paragraph 8. Miss Beedle says that the emergency exit was via the stairs which could be accessed through the lobby of each floor of the tower, but when the refurbishment started, this would often be blocked
01:46:57 started, this would often be blocked off. I remember in October 2014, I raised my concerns about this with Ryden. I called Christina Stephanu and Maxine Igbanidon, both ride and resident liaison officers
01:47:09 both ride and resident liaison officers on their direct lines. Neither answered my call. I then called somebody at the TMO, but I can't remember who. I've since learned that in response to my questions, Siobhan Rumble, neighborhood
01:47:21 questions, Siobhan Rumble, neighborhood man manager for Lancaster West the TMO said, "In the event of a fire, as we know, there's a stayput policy. An evacuation would be via the lift, not the stairwell, and how the barrier would
01:47:32 the stairwell, and how the barrier would be moved in this case. I did ask if Ryden had notified residents, but they hadn't. This is a fault on their part, as if a letter went out, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. I've expressed the importance of making
01:47:44 I've expressed the importance of making sure residents and staff know what is happening. Miss Beedle continues, "I do not remember being given any fire safety advice from the TMO, RBKC, Ryden, or any other party either before or after I had
01:47:56 other party either before or after I had raised these concerns. As far as I remember, nobody from Ryden or the TMO called me back in response to my concerns about the escape route being blocked. I think that this was awful.
01:48:07 blocked. I think that this was awful. They did not treat fire safety seriously as an issue, and this example shows this. They did not deal with my concerns well at all on any level. They just did not seem to care.
01:48:19 not seem to care. That is all that I will read from this statement. The next statement I turn to is that of Bella Pastor and the reference to the statement is IWS 401682.
01:48:34 Bella Pastor lived in Barendon Walk with his partner Miriam Newbie. At the time the statement was prepared, Mr. Pastor was 82 years old and his partner was 77 years old. I will pick up the statement
01:48:46 years old. I will pick up the statement from page 2 paragraph 10 where he says Miriam and I made very few complaint Miriam and I lived in Baronuk for 40 years and in that time we were never
01:48:58 years and in that time we were never visited by the fire brigade nor did we receive any advice from anyone about what to do in case of a fire. We were not consulted about any special evacuation plan to be put in place for Miriam or I as elderly people. And
01:49:11 Miriam or I as elderly people. And that's all that I propose to read from this statement. The next statement that I will read from is that of Helen Hela Hartley and the reference is IWS401257.
01:49:27 Miss Hartley lived in Hurstway Walk and she moved into her home in 2000. If we pick up the statement at page 8 on paragraph 28, Miss Hartley has this to say about fire safety in her stray walk.
01:49:40 say about fire safety in her stray walk. She says as a joint lease holder with NHT and I pause reading there just to explain that NHT stands for Notting Hill Housing Trust.
01:49:51 Housing Trust. It says NHT issued me with a handbook when I moved into Hurstway Walk. There is advice in this handbook to evacuate in case of a fire. However, this handbook is not specific to Hurstway
01:50:02 handbook is not specific to Hurstway Walk properties. I do not remember ever receiving a handbook from the TMO that gave accurate fire safety advice specific to my block. Prior to June 2017, I was not aware that there was a
01:50:13 2017, I was not aware that there was a stay put policy in Hurstray Walk. I had never been told by the TMO. There were no signs in the communal areas of Hurstray Walk stating that there is a stay put policy. The only signs tell
01:50:24 stay put policy. The only signs tell residents not to store belongings in the communal corridor as it is a fire risk. This is not enforced by the TMO at all and other residents frequently keep bikes or pushes outside their flat.
01:50:35 bikes or pushes outside their flat. Currently the state management themselves and their appointed contractors store trolley out there too. I have exhibited a photo of this which was taken in late January 2019. I propose to stop reading there. Those
01:50:48 I propose to stop reading there. Those are the statements that we have um read which address fire safety advice. I now propose to read from the final set of BSR statements which concern the
01:50:59 of BSR statements which concern the system for reporting repairs and complaints before turning to some evidence from re residents on their perspective of the refurbishment process. Finally, there will be evidence read regarding the maintenance of flat
01:51:11 read regarding the maintenance of flat front doors and self-closing devices. The next statement I will read from is that of Jenny Dayton and the reference is IWS41804.
01:51:28 Miss Dayton lived in flat 12 on floor 5 of Grim Tower. I have just read from the statement of her daughter Zoe Daintton and her other daughter Jenny Daintton
01:51:39 and her other daughter Jenny Daintton had lived with her as well. If we turn to page five, paragraph 28, I will pick up from where Miss Staintton
01:51:50 I will pick up from where Miss Staintton addresses reporting issues and concerns to RBKC and the TMO. Miss Daintton said, "When the TMO started managing the tower in the 1990s, there was a noticeable
01:52:01 in the 1990s, there was a noticeable change of branding. The TMO were initially more visible than RBKC had been pre previously. TMO staff were based in an office behind the concierge at the base of the tower. Security was
01:52:12 at the base of the tower. Security was also based there. You would often see staff from the TMO around Lancaster West Estate. However, this changed during the last refurbishment when the concurge disappeared and the TMO moved their office to Kensel Road. I would usually
01:52:25 office to Kensel Road. I would usually report any issues or concerns about the flat or communal areas to concierge as I was passing. I remember gentlemen called Karim, but there were others whose names I cannot remember. When I reported an
01:52:37 I cannot remember. When I reported an issue with the lifts, Karum would normally be aware of this. I preferred speaking to Karim rather than talking calling the TMO's telephone repair line, who'd usually write down my issue or
01:52:48 who'd usually write down my issue or concern or scrap a paper with my flat number. I assumed he would then report this to the TMO on my behalf. I do not know if this information was formally logged by the TMO on any computer system. I never saw any repair book that
01:53:00 system. I never saw any repair book that Karim or others would record this information in. Sometimes I would have to chase this up several occasions before the work was completed. And then if we go on to page to paragraph 32,
01:53:13 paragraph 32, she continues, "Once the concier and the TMO office was removed from the tower in 2014, I would call the TMO's telephone repair line. It was a 0800 number. I did
01:53:24 repair line. It was a 0800 number. I did not find this was very reliable. Sometimes they would not pick up. When you did report a repair or concern, you told that someone would get back to you to arrange an appointment, but they rarely did so. You'd have to chase them
01:53:35 rarely did so. You'd have to chase them again. Alternatively, they would turn up unannounced, or you'd return home from work to find a card have been left saying they had attended, but no one was in yet. I had not been given any
01:53:46 in yet. I had not been given any advanced notice to enable me to make appropriate arrangements for one of us to be at home to let them into the flat. It was most frustrating. I would also speak to Jan Jones about repairs to my flat, either in person or on telephone.
01:53:59 flat, either in person or on telephone. I had her direct, which was separate from the TMO's telephone repair line. She was originally based at the bottom of the tower and later in the TMO's office on Kensel Road. She had worked for the TMO for a long time.
01:54:11 for the TMO for a long time. Jan Jones standard response was, "We will get back to you, but most of the time you would be ignored. It was only once the local council was involved that action was taken." I describe an incident involving a National Grid
01:54:23 incident involving a National Grid contractor drilling into an asbestos panel and how the TMO dealt with this in more detail below. On one occasion, I remember bumping into Jan Jones on this date and asked her why the lifts were always breaking down. She told me it was
01:54:35 always breaking down. She told me it was an old building and that the lifts were in constant use. I felt the implication that was that this should be expected and I should not be complaining about it. When someone finally attended the flat to carry out repairs or maintenance
01:54:47 flat to carry out repairs or maintenance work, they would often try to minimize the issue or blame it on you as the tenant. By the time it came to refurbishment, I was so exasperated that Zoe mo dealt mostly with the TMO in
01:54:58 Zoe mo dealt mostly with the TMO in Ryden. If I did report any issues, I would go straight to the TMO rather than speaking to Ryden. And that's where I propose to stop with her statement. The next statement that I will read from
01:55:10 The next statement that I will read from is that of Lucy Hoe and the reference is IWS41551.
01:55:24 To provide some background, Lucy Ho's mother, Hong Kong Kuang, gave evidence in phase one, and the family had moved into Grenville Tower when Miss Ho was 3 months old, and they lived in flat 76 on
01:55:36 months old, and they lived in flat 76 on floor 10. I propose to pick up her statement from page three, paragraph 10. Miss Ho said, "Being social housing
01:55:47 Miss Ho said, "Being social housing tenants meant that we could redecorate our flat, but we couldn't make improvements to it without asking the council first. And so if things needed repairing, we were reliant on the TMO organizing the repairs to be made. When
01:55:59 organizing the repairs to be made. When things in the flat stopped working and we needed something repaired, we would have to contact the TMO. Jenny and I would contact the TMO on our mom's behalf because her first language is Cantonese and she only speaks a limited
01:56:10 Cantonese and she only speaks a limited amount of English, which I believe the TMO knew or they should have known. There was a TMO helpline that we could call and we had a leaflet with their number on. You could also submit a complaint online. I do not remember
01:56:23 complaint online. I do not remember making a complaint to the TMO online, but I know that Jenny had done so before. I remember that Jenny submitted repair and maintenance forms that was sent to the TMO and I would expect that to be on the housing records. However,
01:56:34 to be on the housing records. However, I've been through the housing file which my legal representative has obtained on my behalf and I cannot see any of these records on the file. We had to be persistent with the TMO to get them to send a workman to the flat to make the
01:56:46 send a workman to the flat to make the repairs when we needed them to. It would often take two to three weeks before someone was sent to our flat by the TMO to take a look at what needed repairing. Quite often the workmen would say they couldn't fix the problem because they
01:56:58 couldn't fix the problem because they didn't have the parts to do so which was really frustrating on occasions because we felt we had given the TMO all the information the workman would need to fix the problem and this would cause further delays.
01:57:10 further delays. I conclude reading from her statement there. I note that Miss Ho's mother and sis and her sister Jenny Kuang have provided phase 2 statements and their respective references are IWS 41552
01:57:25 and IWS 41821.
01:57:31 The next statement that I turn to is that of Elizabeth Soiet.
01:57:38 Uh the reference is IWS41539.
01:57:44 Miss Sojac gave evidence in phase 1 and you'll note that she lived in flat 43 on floor 7 of Grenell Tower with her husband and her daughter and they'd lived in Grenell Tower for 32 years.
01:57:58 lived in Grenell Tower for 32 years. Miss Sojac sets out her experience of making complaints to the TMO in her statement at page two. And I proposed to pick up her statement paragraph seven on page two. She said, "I had very little
01:58:09 page two. She said, "I had very little faith in the TMO being able to sort out problems that we brought to their attention. They made us feel a nuisance, and we often had to take matters into our own hands or call on friends for assistance. When there was a fault in
01:58:20 assistance. When there was a fault in the flat, I would report it to the TMO's housing office reception. The first person you would speak to would be the receptionist, who would say that they would allocate the job to someone before updating you on when that had been done
01:58:31 updating you on when that had been done and when your visit would take place. you would very rarely get a call back and would have to call again and again to report the problem which never seemed to be handed over properly and so you'd
01:58:43 to be handed over properly and so you'd have to waste more time repeating the same issues with very little faith that um it would be actioned that anything would be actioned. We tried to resolve things as much as we could on our own
01:58:54 things as much as we could on our own before calling for help. The other frustrating thing was that often after waiting some time for someone to attend thinking they would resolve the issue, they would attend just for the purposes of doing an assessment and then say they
01:59:06 of doing an assessment and then say they would come back. So the whole ordeal and delay would start again. It came to the point where we lost faith to such an extent that we um began to just try and resolve issues
01:59:19 um began to just try and resolve issues ourselves or rely on friends who are plumbers or handymen. I remember thinking that they had a lot of cheek because after someone from the TMO would attend our flat, even if they hadn't resolved the issue or needed to return,
01:59:30 resolved the issue or needed to return, they would send us a performance feedback slips through the front door for us to complete and return in the post. It wasn't just a general disregard or lack of care for the service they were providing and service users in
01:59:41 were providing and service users in general. And that's where I proposed to stop with her statement. I note that Miss Soviet's husband, Michael, and her daughter, Florentina, have both given phase two statements as well. and the respective references are
01:59:54 well. and the respective references are IWS41562
01:59:58 and IWS4155.
02:00:03 I now turn to the statement of Gitara Palavani and the references IWS41244.
02:00:13 Miss Palavani lived in flat 22 of Grenfell Tower with her two sons and her daughter-in-law. She had um she had lived in the tower since 1997.
02:00:24 since 1997. In her statement, Miss Palavani recalls that she received a tenency handbook when she first moved into the flat. And if we turn to page three, paragraph 7.
02:00:35 I will read what she says about it. Miss Palavani says, "I remember that at first I was very happy with I was happy with the TMO. There were no real issues that needed sorting out in the flat. I was given a tenency handbook when I moved in
02:00:47 given a tenency handbook when I moved in and I was happy that it said if something needed repairing then the TMO would send someone to do it. In the beginning they did exactly that. Little things that needed fixing were done quickly and without any issue. However,
02:00:59 quickly and without any issue. However, things changed a few years after moving in. I addressed some of the issues with my flat at paragraph 14 to 27 below. And then if we look at paragraph 10, if
02:01:10 And then if we look at paragraph 10, if we move forward, she also addresses the complaints procedure where she says, "Whenever something did go wrong, be it an issue with the flat or something else, and I was upset with the TMO, I did not really know what to do. I was
02:01:22 did not really know what to do. I was not aware of any kind of formal complaints procedure and do not remember anyone telling us about this sort of thing. I sometimes tried to speak to Clare Williams, the manager of the TMO,
02:01:33 Clare Williams, the manager of the TMO, at the tower at the TMO. I was always just told that she did not deal with tenants who was not available. In many ways, I felt helpless and like no one would listen to me when I had an issue.
02:01:44 would listen to me when I had an issue. And that's where I proposed to stop with her statement. As mentioned, I will now read from some statements which make reference to the refurbishment process itself and
02:01:55 refurbishment process itself and concerns raised then. The first statement addressing those issues that I will read from is that of Shantel Patel and the reference is IWS41828.
02:02:08 Mr. Patel lived in flat 56 on floor 8 of Grenful Tower with his wife Kieran Patel. They had moved into the tower in 1984 and both their sons grew up in the
02:02:19 1984 and both their sons grew up in the tower. They were lease holders of their flat since 2001. Now, if I can pick up his statement at page two, paragraph 9.
02:02:31 Mr. Patel says, "At one point during the refurbishment when the cladding was being fitted to the outside of the building, there were some very there were some high winds one evening. The newly fixed cladding rails rattled all
02:02:43 newly fixed cladding rails rattled all night long." And then if you continue at the next page, he says, "I looked out of my window and could see that some of the bolts used on the cladding rails looked too short and suspected that some of the
02:02:54 too short and suspected that some of the fastenings had not been tightened properly. This was worrying and so I emailed the TMO to warn them of the problem. I never really got a response to my comments apart from that the rattling was only due to high winds and
02:03:05 rattling was only due to high winds and that this would not happen once all the cladding was fitted. A copy of some of my emails and the brief responses I received have been provided to the inquiry and those are with URN reference
02:03:16 inquiry and those are with URN reference R Yd 3028012
02:03:20 and R Yd 3027752.
02:03:27 Um, if we then look to the next paragraph at paragraph 11, he's also addressed the windows installation and he says, "New windows were fitted in my flat in August 2015. There were,
02:03:39 flat in August 2015. There were, however, problems with the windows that were fitted. One window had a safety latch catch missing, meaning the window could be opened all the way. Another was jammed shut, so you could not open it at all. To me, it was more evidence of
02:03:51 all. To me, it was more evidence of shoddy work or poor products being used." I tried to call Linda Apprentice, the liaison officer who worked for Ryden, but she did not answer any of my calls. So, I emailed Clare Williams at the TMO as she was managing the
02:04:03 the TMO as she was managing the refurbishment. Someone from Ryden came to my flat the following day to check the windows. I was told that someone from the window fitting team would come to fix the issue the following week. Copies of these
02:04:14 the following week. Copies of these emails have been provided to the inquiry at URN reference ryd49391.
02:04:21 No one came to my flat in the in the weeks following to fix the windows. I emailed Linda Apprentice to inform her that the windows were still broken. Linda responded to say that someone would come to the flat the following day at 11:00 a.m. A man came to the flat the
02:04:34 at 11:00 a.m. A man came to the flat the following the following day, looked at the windows and said then said that he did not have the right parts to fix the window with him and he would fix it later once more once more parts have been ordered.
02:04:46 been ordered. Um,
02:04:52 and then he continue. Um, I apologize, I've just missed my spot. He told me that there were a number of windows in the tower with the same problem. He did manage to remove a part
02:05:03 problem. He did manage to remove a part from the jammed window so that it could open. A copy of my emails to Linda had been provided to the inquiry at RYD3053102.
02:05:13 And that's where I proposed to stop with his statement. Um I note that Sherag Patel, Mr. Patel's son has also provided a phase 2 statement and that is under reference IWS41610.
02:05:27 I now propose to turn the statement of William Thompson and that's IWS42110.
02:05:36 Mr. Thompson lived in flat 52 on floor 8 with his family and they had moved into Grenell Tower in June 200 in June 1997. I will pick up his statement from page
02:05:47 I will pick up his statement from page four paragraph 14.
02:05:51 Mr. Thompson said in relation to any other consultation on the refurbishment, I remember seeing the new windows um being unloaded from a lorry on pallets and stored in the garages under
02:06:03 pallets and stored in the garages under the walkways. Prior to that point, I don't recall being asked the type of what type of windows I wanted or being offered any choice. Obviously, once they had been ordered and delivered, I do not recall being asked my view either. They
02:06:15 recall being asked my view either. They had already been delivered by that point. There was a meeting in the show flat, flat 145, when we were shown the new windows we were getting. I'm pretty sure there were three meetings I attended in the show flat, and it was
02:06:26 attended in the show flat, and it was the first meeting when I was shown the windows. This meeting happened around January 2015. I refer to it later in the statement because of comments made by Jason North of Ryden at the meeting. I vaguely remember seeing a picture of the
02:06:37 vaguely remember seeing a picture of the windows maybe on a newsletter, but I don't ever remember being told by the TMO in person the type of windows they were planning to put on the building and being asked for my view. I was never asked what I thought of the TMO plans.
02:06:48 asked what I thought of the TMO plans. Conversations about the works were always in summary along the lines of this is what you're getting instead of these are the options. What do you think?
02:06:57 think? And then if I move forward to paragraph 16, Mr. Thompson has also said, "I was never asked what type of cladding I wanted on the building. But if I had been asked, it would not have alarmed
02:07:08 been asked, it would not have alarmed me. I would not have known there was anything wrong with it. I would have expected it to be safe. The thought that it might be dangerous would not have enter even entered my mind. I would have thought it was just for aesthetics." Is
02:07:19 thought it was just for aesthetics." Is very painful for me to think of all the things I complained about, I did not focus on the cladding. On reflection, given the TMO's history, I should have scrutinized every single thing they were doing.
02:07:31 doing. I then proposed to move forward to paragraph 22, and this is on page four.
02:07:40 Um, I apologize. Page six, possibly please scroll forward.
02:07:48 Um, Mr. Thompson's continued, "The refurbishment works begin." And this is the subheading and he continues after that. After the color of the hoardings
02:07:59 that. After the color of the hoardings changed, the work on the towers started and residents began to come together to complain about the works. I remember the first meeting of residents in relation to the refurbishment works was absolutely jammed. It was in the EM
02:08:10 absolutely jammed. It was in the EM rooms and there were residents waiting outside who could not get in. There were series of resident meetings throughout 2015 and 16. In addition to the residents who attended these meetings, there were other residents who didn't
02:08:22 there were other residents who didn't attend, who were either too busy or didn't feel able to speak out or got tired of complaining, even though they would have wanted to, but who still supported the aims of residents who did attend. After a resident's meeting had
02:08:34 attend. After a resident's meeting had taken place, I was often approached by neighbors who did not attend and asked how it went and offered support. My impression living in the tower was that there were some residents who became so used to being bullied by the TMO and
02:08:46 used to being bullied by the TMO and RBKC that they just didn't want to rock the boat as they were afraid of the consequences. I'm not saying people were physically threatened, but people were afraid, especially the old and vulnerable, of which there were quite a
02:08:57 vulnerable, of which there were quite a few. That is how it is in social housing, especially when there's lots of homelessness out there. Many people do not want to speak up against a landlord because of however bad things
02:09:08 landlord because of however bad things might be. They feel at least they have a home. I used to picture some of these older and vulnerable residents sitting in their homes with no water but scared to complain. Scared of the people who are supposed to be looking after them.
02:09:20 are supposed to be looking after them. My former neighbor David Collins attended early resident meetings. He was articulate and I felt he could be a real asset in helping residents. It was good he was there and I'm sure he has lots of information about the refurbishment
02:09:31 information about the refurbishment work. So, it's important he can give evidence to the inquiry and comment on documents produced by those involved in the refurbishment project. He took the lead in raising complaints during the refurbishment as chair of the Grimford
02:09:42 refurbishment as chair of the Grimford compact when that was formed later down the line as I described later in this statement. Eddie Defan was also a lead advocate on behalf of residents and compact members. He knew a lot of people in the town was a popular member of our
02:09:54 in the town was a popular member of our community. He still is. I knew he co-wrote the Grenful Action Group blog and I often read the blog at the time and even contributed to a couple of articles which I mentioned below. Eddie was passionate about our living
02:10:06 was passionate about our living conditions and protecting community resources across the burough. He would get things across well in meetings of the TMO, RBKC, MPs, Ryden, and others. Eddie could recall promises that the TMO
02:10:17 Eddie could recall promises that the TMO and RBKC had made, things people had said, and he could remind them of this. If I could not go into a meeting and wanted someone to advocate for me, that's a person I would want to do it.
02:10:28 that's a person I would want to do it. He could get points across much better than most of us. He was used to meetings and knew how to conduct himself. So, it's not surprising that people in the tower would go to him and to other compact members with their problems and complaints. I could see that the TMO and
02:10:41 complaints. I could see that the TMO and Ryden realized they couldn't mess about with them. Throughout the period of time that is covered by the statement, a number of residents would therefore speak to Eddie about their problems as they probably felt he could raise them
02:10:52 they probably felt he could raise them effectively and properly hold the TMO and RBKC to account. And then if we move forward to paragraph 26 on the next page.
02:11:06 Um the main driver to residents coming together during the refurbishment works was the way we were all being treated in relation to the location of the heating interface units HIUS. But over time
02:11:18 interface units HIUS. But over time residents also shared their experiences of the following amongst other things. Poor workmanship especially around pipe work and windows. Ryden workers being rude and invading people's privacy. Ryden's working hours that they were
02:11:30 Ryden's working hours that they were doing noisy work at times we they had agreed not to. Running water not working, changing floor numbers. I would raise issues on behalf of other residents and they would ask me to do so. This happened even before the
02:11:42 so. This happened even before the Granville Compact was formed. For example, in relation to the noisy working hours, Ryden promised not to do any noisy work children were getting ready for school or when they had returned after school and needed to do
02:11:53 returned after school and needed to do their homework. I took it upon myself to call Ryden almost every time their workers breached that agreement which happened frequently. I wanted to speak to someone senior but I was always put through to the resident liaison
02:12:04 through to the resident liaison officers. I remember speaking to Linda apprentice about this on numerous occasions. If I did not complain then the workers would not stop their noisy work.
02:12:13 work. And that's where I proposed to stop reading from Mr. Thompson's statement. I will now turn to the statement of Hanan Wahhabi and the reference is IWS41714.
02:12:29 Now Miss Wahhabi lived in flat 60 66 on floor 9 of Grenful Tower with her husband and children. She also gave evidence in phase 1 and she told the inquiry that she moved into Grenell
02:12:40 inquiry that she moved into Grenell Tower in October 2001. Her brother Abdulaziz al-wahhabi lived in flat 182 on floor 21 with his wife Fazia and their three children. Mr. Alwahhabi and
02:12:51 their three children. Mr. Alwahhabi and his family died in the fire. Mrs. Hanan Wahhabi was a member of Grenful Compact and she confirms that she made complaints both as an individual and through the compact in
02:13:02 individual and through the compact in her statement at paragraph 18. However, I propose to move forward to par page six and pick up her statement at paragraph 31.
02:13:13 Miss Wahhabi says, "The majority of complaints I had regarding fire safety were made through the compact meetings. During these meetings, we raised fire safety complaints of residents throughout the whole of the tower. We
02:13:25 throughout the whole of the tower. We spoke about the building of Kensington Aldridge Academy and the effect it would have on the space for emergency vehicles. We also spoke about the porter cabins which were located around the site during the refurbishment and how
02:13:36 site during the refurbishment and how this would make it difficult for emergency vehicles to enter. We also raised our concerns about floor numbering to Peter Madison. Before the refurbishment, flat 66 was on floor six. After the refurbishment, this became
02:13:48 After the refurbishment, this became floor 9. We fought the floor for the floor numbers to remain the same given the familiarization and the floor plans of the London Fire Brigade.
02:13:59 of the London Fire Brigade. And then if we move forward to paragraph 32, she continues, "I detailed my involvement with the Grenful Compact Group at paragraphs 25 to 29 of my IWS,
02:14:10 Group at paragraphs 25 to 29 of my IWS, that's her inquiry witness statement, and 16 to 23 of my SIWS, and that is her supplementary inquiry witness statement. and pages three to five of my MPS metrop
02:14:22 and pages three to five of my MPS metrop metropolitan police statement. Um, a group of residents, David Collins, Edward Defan, Marcio Gomez, Turfat Yilmer, Antonio Ronalato, William
02:14:33 Yilmer, Antonio Ronalato, William Thompson, and myself began meeting to discuss our concerns regarding issues with the tower in around January 2015. We signed the compact agreement in October 2015. The compact group met
02:14:46 October 2015. The compact group met weekly to begin with, then once a fortnight. At the compact meetings, we voiced we would voice our concerns to Peter Madison from the TMO, councelor Judith Blakeman, and councelor Fielding.
02:14:57 Judith Blakeman, and councelor Fielding. David Collins, who was a resident of flat 185, was chairman. David Collins and Edward DeF would also send our concerns by email to the above named. I was occasionally CCd into these emails,
02:15:08 was occasionally CCd into these emails, but the majority of the time David Collins forwarded me any responses.
02:15:18 I would um and I propose to stop there with reading her statement. Oh, sorry. There is one more matter. If I move forward, sorry, if I move back to paragraph nine on page two.
02:15:33 I would also note what Miss Wahhabi has to say about her flat door. She says at paragraph nine, "I have previously detailed that the door broke and contact has attended to fix the door. The door
02:15:45 has attended to fix the door. The door had three hinges, but the middle hinge looked different to the other two as it had a chain and pole attaching it um I believe it should read attaching it to the door. I have since viewed my housing
02:15:57 the door. I have since viewed my housing file and been provided with the repair log for my flat. I note the log states that on 6th December 2011 OH1697441
02:16:09 remove and ease external door including any and she's given her exhibit reference HW1. I think this may be when they removed the pole and the hinge which was similar to the photo
02:16:20 which was similar to the photo exhibited. I remember it was before the refurbishment started and before the previous fire. This means I was incorrect when I stated in my previous statement the door was replaced in 20144
02:16:31 statement the door was replaced in 20144 as it appears they were replaced in 2011.
02:16:34 2011. And if we continue to next page, Miss Wahhabi says at paragraph 10, the contractors removed the pole which was contained in the middle hinge of the door. The pole led from the door to the door frame. I have explained that after
02:16:46 door frame. I have explained that after they removed the pole, the door was much lighter and no longer closed automatically. Despite the person who fixing fixed the door informing me that he would be back to fix a mechanism, no one ever attended. As I explained during
02:16:59 one ever attended. As I explained during my oral evidence, the same thing happened with my brother's door. They took out the same hinge containing the pole and it no longer closed automatically. I called KCTMO a couple
02:17:10 automatically. I called KCTMO a couple of times to request that the pole was replaced. During these phone calls, I was informed they would arrange for someone to contact me to confirm when they would attend. However, no one contacted me. When I tried to follow up
02:17:22 contacted me. When I tried to follow up by phoning KCTMO again, they would again say they would confirm when someone would be able to take a look. However, they would never call back. After a couple of times of trying, I gave up as nobody was responding. Therefore, the
02:17:35 nobody was responding. Therefore, the poll was never replaced. For this reason, I did not feel that my complaints were effectively dealt with. And that's why I proposed to stop reading from Miss Han Wahhabi statement. I would note her son Zachariah Jebonyi
02:17:48 I would note her son Zachariah Jebonyi has provided the inquiry with a phase 2 statement as well and that reference is IWS41979.
02:17:57 Now, Miss Wahhabi's evidence about her front door takes us to evidence from other residents about the self closing mechanism on their front doors. And I now propose to go to the statement of Turfat Yilma Germa and the references
02:18:09 Turfat Yilma Germa and the references IWS 401732.
02:18:18 Now, Miss Turifa Yomago moved into the tower in 1996 and lived in flat 44 on floor 7 with her husband and her child. If we pick up her statement on page
02:18:29 If we pick up her statement on page three at paragraph six, she has this to say.
02:18:34 say. I do not recall that our flat door had a self-closing mechanism. In fact, after our door was changed in about 2014, I would estimate, I recall that we had a problem closing the door. We told the
02:18:45 problem closing the door. We told the TMO about the problem and they advised us to remove something from the door hinge to fix the problem which we did. We also had problems with the communal doors. They would not shut properly. We complained about this issue to TMO as
02:18:57 complained about this issue to TMO as well and that's all that I propose to read. I note that her husband Abraham Abe has also provided the inquiry with a phase 2 statement and the reference for that is IWS 401796.
02:19:11 I will now turn to the statement of Senator Matchet which is um under inquiry inquiry reference IWS 401563.
02:19:24 Mr. Matchet gave evidence in phase one and he lived in flat 133 with his wife Hanife.
02:19:32 Hanife. I propose to pick up his statement on page three paragraph 13 where he has where he has said as follows. I described in my phase one
02:19:43 follows. I described in my phase one statement at paragraphs 39 to 43 how my front door was replaced with a new door that would automatically close but after a few months the door broke which meant that I could not close the front door at
02:19:54 that I could not close the front door at all. I have described how I called the TMO using the emergency phone number to report this. The TMO sent around a handyman. He told me it was the self-closing mechanism in the door which
02:20:05 self-closing mechanism in the door which had broken, causing the door to jam. He removed this mechanism from the door. This allowed the door to close again. He told me that he would not be replacing the mechanism and to get the door to automatically close again. Then they
02:20:17 automatically close again. Then they would need to buy a whole door. I assumed at the time that what he meant by this was it would cost money to replace the whole door, which the TMO would not want to do. I have included in the statement how the handyman told me
02:20:29 the statement how the handyman told me that there were other front doors in Grenville Tower which did not automatically close and he said it was not necessary for my door to automatically close. In my repairs data it says on 12th June 2012 newly fitted
02:20:42 it says on 12th June 2012 newly fitted door has not been fitted properly. This might be about the front door problem I reported although if it is then it does not describe the problem properly. I'm surprised it does not include the change that was made to my door by the workman.
02:20:55 that was made to my door by the workman. And that's where I propose to stop with his statement. I will now go to the statement of Samuel Daniels and the reference is IWS 42065.
02:21:07 Mr. Daniels lived in flat 135 on floor 16 with his father, Joseph Daniels, who died in the fire. He also gave evidence in phase one. And you'll note that Mr. Daniels lived
02:21:18 And you'll note that Mr. Daniels lived in flat 135 since 1983. Now, if we pick up his statement on page three at paragraph 13, Mr. Daniels said,
02:21:29 three at paragraph 13, Mr. Daniels said, "We had a new front door installed during the refurbishment, I think around 2011. This is confirmed by correspondence dated 10 February 2011 between the TMO and Mance Master Limited
02:21:41 between the TMO and Mance Master Limited who were contacted to install the new internal front doors. And he's given a reference MAS 627.
02:21:50 627. It was not self-closing and was much lighter than the original door. Sometimes the door would not lock by pulling up the handle. A key had to be used to lock the door. The latch would not engage and fully close unless you
02:22:01 not engage and fully close unless you forced it to closed. My housing file shows the issue that the issue with the lock was logged on 28th February 2011 at 12:31 as overhaul upper lock and front
02:22:12 12:31 as overhaul upper lock and front door and is recorded with a target date 3 March 2011 and he's provided it as an exhibit SD01. Despite this repair, the lock still did
02:22:23 Despite this repair, the lock still did not function all the time. One evening, this fault was raised with the TMO by phone on an emergency line as it was at night and the front door was not closing. According to my housing file,
02:22:34 closing. According to my housing file, this happened on 4 April 2011. In 2017, I remember a caretaker came out and took out the middle hinge in the door. This made the door closed once you pulled it close, but there was still an issue with
02:22:47 close, but there was still an issue with the lock system. The caretaker said they would come back and replace the entire door, but they never did. The housing file shows that the issue with the door was logged on 4 April 2017 at 1704 as
02:22:59 was logged on 4 April 2017 at 1704 as front door. um as front door not closing and is recorded as priority attend in four hours target date 4 April 2017 21104 the
02:23:12 hours target date 4 April 2017 21104 the job status is recorded as approved which is exhibit SD02 the following day 5 April 2017 there's a log at 1206 recorded as overhaul complete UPVC front door with a priority
02:23:24 complete UPVC front door with a priority of 20 working days and a target date of 8 May 2017 1206 and that's exhibited at SD3
02:23:33 SD3 the same day there's another log it is logged at 1312 as please attend a front door lock as door will not shut the priority is recorded as attend in 4 hours with a target date of 5 April 1712
02:23:45 hours with a target date of 5 April 1712 the job status is recorded as a fully abandoned exhibit SD04 there are logs for 5 April 2017 to renew front door and overhaul complete UPVC front door and
02:23:56 overhaul complete UPVC front door and that's exhibit SD05 Five [Applause] in the next and if we go to the next page at paragraph 16 he's he also says months went by and nobody came out to
02:24:08 months went by and nobody came out to fix it. I think about 2 months after the hinge was taken out the self-locking system on the door stopped working. I do not think anybody came out to fix this. The log target date for 8 May 2017 never
02:24:21 The log target date for 8 May 2017 never happened since the fire. understand that a number of residents have had similar problems with their front doors and that's where I propose to stop with Mr. Daniel's statement.
02:24:33 I will now turn to the statement of Bilal Alani and the reference is IWS42034.
02:24:44 This is his phase 2 statement and Mr. Alani lived in flat 152 with his wife Rabia Yaya and their children. Um, you will recall that Rabia Yaya gave
02:24:55 will recall that Rabia Yaya gave evidence in phase one and I proposed to pick up his statement from page two paragraph 7 where he said, "I described the front door to our flat in page three
02:25:06 the front door to our flat in page three of my MPS statement. Rabia described the front door to our flat in paragraph 10 of her first inquiry statement, page 109, line two, page 112, line 24 of her oral evidence. The new front door was
02:25:20 oral evidence. The new front door was put in before and then it continues over page. The major refurbishment in the building. I think it was a year or a year and a half before the major works. Like Rabia said, the new front door broke soon after it was put in. The
02:25:32 broke soon after it was put in. The hinges that were holding the door to the wall came loose. The door would jam. There was a way around that. You could lift the door slightly to use it. But one day, the hinge with a long pole hidden in the door got jammed and kept
02:25:43 hidden in the door got jammed and kept the door open. Rabia called me and said she had to she had had to have the door open. So when I came home, I removed the pole and screwed the hinges back on. The door was always loose, but now it was
02:25:54 door was always loose, but now it was exceptionally light, even lighter than a normal door. It looked wooden, but it was feather light. It had some plastic element to it. Without the pole, we could shut the door, but it didn't shut automatically. We reported this to the
02:26:06 automatically. We reported this to the TMO, but no one ever responded to our complaint or fixed the door closer. And that's where I proposed to stop with his statement. I note that Rabia Rabia Yaya's phase 2 statement speaks to
02:26:17 Yaya's phase 2 statement speaks to similar issues and the reference for her statement is IWS42050.
02:26:25 I'll now turn to the statement of Mario Gomez and the reference is IWS41734.
02:26:35 Mr. Gomez lived in flat 183, a grandful tower on floor 21 with his wife and his daughters and they'd lived in the tower for 10 years. You'll recall that he gave evidence in phase one.
02:26:47 evidence in phase one. Now, if you turn to page 39, oh sorry, if we turn to page 12 rather, I propose to pick up if we can scroll forward um
02:27:02 to the next page along
02:27:08 and forward again.
02:27:17 Um if
02:27:20 if [Applause]
02:27:24 if we can move up to the last page.
02:27:36 Do you do do you want the previous page? I believe so. I'm sorry. So, I think I've misplace the page number that I
02:27:55 Oh.
02:28:12 Sorry, sir. I believe I've lost my the reference the page that I need for that statement. If I may have a moment. Um,
02:28:22 well, just take your time to find it and there's no rush.
02:28:44 Oh, sorry. If we can return to page four.
02:28:52 Yes, this is right. Um, Mr. Gomez has given evidence and respect of his front door and he says at um if I pick up at paragraph 10 and then he's
02:29:04 pick up at paragraph 10 and then he's quoted paragraph 59 I was not happy with the automatic closing mechanism on the front door as the door would slam shut. I was worried about the safety of my daughters um and
02:29:17 about the safety of my daughters um and their names have been redacted and he says they were only five and six at the time the door was fitted. Our concerns were that our daughters might have their hands might have had their hands by the door frame and the door would chop off
02:29:28 door frame and the door would chop off their fingers when slamming shut automatically. I reported my concerns regarding the new front door to the TMO and asked them to rem remove the automatic closing mechanism. The TMO refused to remove the mechanism. I
02:29:41 refused to remove the mechanism. I therefore spoke to a member of staff from the company who fitted the doors as they came to our flat a few weeks after the doors had been installed to inspect them and asked us if we were happy with the new door. I informed the gentleman
02:29:52 the new door. I informed the gentleman that I was not happy with the door due to the force of the automatic closing mechanism. I asked him if he could take it out and he said no. He told me that I should wait for the final inspection following which if I wanted I could
02:30:04 following which if I wanted I could remove the closing mechanism myself. I told him that I was aware that I could do it myself and asked him if there was a way to make the door less springy. He informed me that the door and then he continues over page could not be
02:30:15 continues over page could not be modified and I therefore had no option but to remove the automatic closing mechanism myself. I had not told the TMO that I had removed the automatic closing mechanism, but the TMO had been to my
02:30:26 mechanism, but the TMO had been to my flat after the chain was removed and would have noticed that the door did not slam shut and never raised this with me. I would like to make it clear that removing the spring automatic closing mechanis mechanism did not stop the
02:30:37 mechanis mechanism did not stop the front door from closing shut. The doors still closed shut automatically, but was more natural and not at speed. I and my family obviously always kept our front door shut when we were in our home or when we were away. On the night
02:30:49 home or when we were away. On the night of the fire, the front door was completely shut and that's where I proposed to stop reading with his statement. I would note that his wife Andrea Perisello has also provided a
02:31:00 Andrea Perisello has also provided a phase 2 statement, the reference for which is IWS41743.
02:31:07 Mr. Chairman, members of the panel, this completes the BSR evidence that we propose to read into the record in module 3. I would note that all the statements are signed and dated with a statement of truth and would ask that
02:31:19 statement of truth and would ask that all these statements are formally admitted into the record. Yes, of course. Finally, I would note that there are a number of other statements that the inquiry has received from um residents
02:31:32 inquiry has received from um residents of Grenful Tower and also the walkways. I would like to acknowledge their statements by reading the names of those that we've received statements from. Yes. Thank you very much.
02:31:45 If the document can be called up ID IDX0706
02:32:20 Okay. Um, so I will just read the names. I think that will do anyway. I'm not sure we need to see them on the screen. So,
02:32:29 So, I'm grateful. Thank you. Abu Baka Muhammad Ibraim Adriana Ramirez
02:32:40 Adriana Ramirez Agnes Murray Ahmed al-Sadi Ahmed al- Assad Ahmed Musad
02:32:54 Alan Anoir Ali Alameet Deisi
02:33:01 Amina Kabu, Amina Muhammad,
02:33:09 Anne Murphy,
02:33:12 Antonio Ronalato,
02:33:16 Asia Gambi, Gamhi,
02:33:20 Gamhi, Aziza Rahani,
02:33:24 Beu Kabid, Bayana Inazir Lashari, Bellaines Arai,
02:33:35 Bellaines Arai, Bernard Shaw, Bushra Alja,
02:33:43 Brahim al- Amin, Braneslav, Lucich,
02:33:51 Caesar Ranito,
02:33:54 Charlie Den, Charlotte Mcmahon, Christine Bonnet,
02:34:05 Christine Bonnet, Christine Risha, Christopher Ronalato, Cordelia Den, Daniel Brendan Griffin,
02:34:20 Daniel Udy, David O'Connell,
02:34:27 Diego Ortiz,
02:34:31 Dooall Stewart,
02:34:35 Effie Stio Pulu, Elaine Lara, Elsa Aphawi,
02:34:46 Elsa Aphawi, Espironza Lopez,
02:34:51 Esther Watts,
02:34:55 Padumo Ahmed Farah Vaka Malik Farah Seruk
02:35:07 Fatima Bjettif
02:35:11 Fatima Jones
02:35:15 Jinaro Batau Janette Gramm Shaw
02:35:24 Glenn Young, Gazeppi, Raza,
02:35:32 Hadijah Arched,
02:35:36 Hale Lima Dejamoa,
02:35:41 Hamza Jones, Hay Hayatt Al-senusi,
02:35:50 Hazel Burke,
02:35:53 Helen Gabramscoll,
02:35:57 Hisham Sherbika,
02:36:02 Haimey Hmon Gashel, Huitt Dagnu,
02:36:10 Abdasam Alawaz, Enz Alves,
02:36:18 Isabelle, Renito,
02:36:23 Ishmail,
02:36:27 Jackie Blanchflower,
02:36:31 Jacqueline Haynes,
02:36:35 Jason Miller,
02:36:39 Jessica Gomez,
02:36:43 Javon Moses, Jose Viero,
02:36:51 Joseph Carl John Judy Phillips Karima Alsawi
02:37:02 Karen Abboud
02:37:06 Kelly Dowlet Kadijah Yaya Laya Rahani
02:37:17 Laya Rahani Lean Maya Jackson Leblanc, Lena Hamid, Lubna Balfasi,
02:37:28 Lubna Balfasi, Luke Towner, Mahmud Alcarad, Mahmud Kabua, Manuel, Miguel, Ferrer, Alves,
02:37:42 Manuel, Miguel, Ferrer, Alves, Marcia Levy, Margaret Novel, Maria Gil,
02:37:52 Marama Al Hassani, Mark Bennett, Marilyn Lopez,
02:38:04 Melanie Abano,
02:38:07 Miriam Abdul, Kadia Ysef, formerly Nadia Ysef,
02:38:14 Ysef, Marin Mckennon,
02:38:18 Mezro Kazmjian, Michael John,
02:38:26 Michael Paramasavian,
02:38:31 Michelle Chapetto,
02:38:34 Miriam Lfrell,
02:38:39 Muhammad Hariri,
02:38:42 Muhammad Yaya,
02:38:46 Monica Loco, Muna Al Agbani, Nadia Albbouti,
02:38:57 Nadia Albbouti, Naomi Lee, Nazanin Alcalani,
02:39:04 Goi Chijana,
02:39:08 Nina Mazro, Olawasian Talabi,
02:39:16 Omar Omar Alhaj Ali Otmani Benula
02:39:24 Paul Norbert Peter Murphy Phillip King Ramiro Abano
02:39:38 Rashida Ali Raindra Manilal Ratnika
02:39:46 Raa say
02:39:50 Ree Dedric
02:39:53 Richard Fletcher
02:39:57 Rosemary Auual Sabah Abdullah Syra Malik
02:40:08 Syra Malik Salah Edin Chabuni Salma Sed
02:40:15 Sarah Mensah, Sepida Minay, Madam
02:40:23 Sharon Leaky, Shaman Benedict Bernard, Simon Jolly,
02:40:34 Simon Jolly, Sophia Oliv Olivieru, Thiego Alves, Thomasina Hessel, Virginia Sang,
02:40:46 Virginia Sang, Vivana Ruolo, Ruo, Wesley Ignasio, William Wake,
02:40:58 William Wake, Winton Tameskin, Zinu Dean, Zachary Al-sawi, Zora al- Assad.
02:41:10 Zora al- Assad. I would ask that all those statements on behalf of the names that I have just read are formally admitted into the record.
02:41:17 record. Yes. Thank you very much. Uh and it's right that I should express our gratitude to all those who taken the time and trouble to make statements for the inquiry. Um although only some parts
02:41:30 the inquiry. Um although only some parts of some of the statements have been read out this morning, I should like to assure everybody who made a statement that the whole of their statements have been read by uh carefully by the inquiry
02:41:42 been read by uh carefully by the inquiry and will be taken into account by the panel when we come to make our decisions. I'm grateful. Thank you very much. Um I believe our next witness is due at
02:41:54 Um I believe our next witness is due at 2:00. Um, it might be a little bit early for the break, but I am inclined to think that the sensible course, if it suits others, would be to
02:42:07 course, if it suits others, would be to break at this point and take an early lunch and resume a quart to two. How would that suit you? Very well, sir. Thank you. All right. You happy with that? Ali, you happy with that? Yeah. Right. Thank you.
02:42:19 happy with that? Yeah. Right. Thank you. Well, that's what we'll do. We'll break at this point and we'll resume at quarter to two, please. Good. Thank you.