Rydon Evidence - Monday 20th July 2020 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:08 yes would you ask mr lawrence to come back please

00:00:26 all right ready to go on thank you very good thank you very much yes mr miller mr lawrence uh this morning uh you mentioned an email uh in which you recall

00:00:37 uh in which you recall um having discussed uh whether ryan would be kept in the loop in relation to communications between harley and julio e

00:00:45 e i think we've found it it's ryd double zero one three nine two two but just help us ryd three zeros one three nine two two

00:01:03 and it's an email the bottom of that page from mark harris to you dated the 28th of july 2014. simon we are starting to receive emails direct from bruce regarding detailing

00:01:15 direct from bruce regarding detailing and product selection etc i wanted to check with you to ensure we operate correctly with regards to contractual etiquette

00:01:21 etiquette whether this information should be coming through ryden i can see that you've been copied in but thought i should ask the question in order to be sure and you respond to him the same day

00:01:35 respond to him the same day copy to others at harley hi mark as we've now done the deal we can get going i've told bruce that it is now okay to contact you direct about design but i am to be copied in i expect you to

00:01:46 but i am to be copied in i expect you to flag any design changes that have time and cost implications so we don't over design anything is that the email you think you were referring to this morning i think so it looks like it yeah okay um uh yeah looks yes

00:02:00 okay um uh yeah looks yes in general terms did you think that was it

00:02:03 it across the board in other words that was essentially a standing instructional procedure as to how matters were going to proceed thereafter uh yes i would have yes yes

00:02:15 uh yes i would have yes yes um turning to the question of fire consultants it's right that you or ryden had been involved

00:02:24 involved in the refurbishment of um chalcotes the chalcotes in 2012. correct or earlier than that in fact and there'd been a fire there in 2012 which i think you knew about yes yes in

00:02:37 which i think you knew about yes yes in the light of that fire did ryden think it appropriate to change its practice and start to engage fire consultants uh not the isil but you'd have to ask ryden now you said earlier this

00:02:49 ask ryden now you said earlier this morning

00:02:51 morning and i believe it's at page 69 of the transcript that you had made a decision internally as a ryden team not to use a fire safety consultant and you told us

00:03:02 a fire safety consultant and you told us that studio e wasn't privy to that decision

00:03:05 decision that's that just to confirm that's correct isn't it i believe so yes yes if you had if ryden had no in-house design expertise on what basis could the ryden in-house

00:03:16 on what basis could the ryden in-house team

00:03:17 team decide that they didn't need a fire safety consultant uh well we i think we felt that the um the advice from builder control and their their fire

00:03:29 their their fire specialist paul hoban um along with obviously studio e we felt the design was going was going well and we were getting some

00:03:40 was going well and we were getting some um good

00:03:43 um good you know in effect a very good service from paul hoban and and building control right questions of fire

00:03:49 fire you've mentioned building control a number of times in the questions and answers we've had today and you now say that you were getting good service from them

00:04:00 good service from them but building control weren't part of your subcontractor chain were they

00:04:06 uh as far as actual subcontractor no no and they weren't contracted sorry i was gonna say but we we pay them to check compliance for the

00:04:17 pay them to check compliance for the building rigs we appoint them don't we well

00:04:21 well you you whatever you pay them building control are a regulator aren't they correct they're external to the design to the riding team aren't they yes in

00:04:32 to the riding team aren't they yes in fact they're external to the entire ride and subcontract chain yes yes so you you might expect them to pick up any

00:04:43 you you might expect them to pick up any non-compliances but is it really right mr ryden mr lawrence to say that ryden were relying on them as if they were part of the subcontractor chain

00:04:54 chain providing you with a service well they were provided with the service is that how you saw it at the time yes because we were we were paying for them to um

00:05:07 we were paying for them to um check compliance against the building rigs and then check the works that was installed

00:05:14 so just help me is that how you saw building control's role as someone who would essentially advise ryden

00:05:27 advise ryden about compliance matters they would advise

00:05:31 advise well they devised ryden studio e um in interpretation to the to the building regulations yes

00:05:45 but building control are there are they not

00:05:49 not to provide you with the answer as to the question whether this design or this construction passes or fails the test

00:06:01 passes or fails the test under the building regulations yes correct

00:06:04 correct they're not there are they to provide you with advice as to whether the building is safe or to how to go about passing the building regulations

00:06:15 they will they will give advice on the interpretation of the regulations and in particular

00:06:26 regulations and in particular paul hanson as an example would give advice

00:06:32 you know if there was a 60-minute fire door in it or a 30-minute fight i wouldn't need to be a 60-minute fighter then they would uh point you in the right direction and say that needs to be a 60-minute final so

00:06:43 that needs to be a 60-minute final so you would get advice of that extent summarizing it though is it right that you saw building control's role as essentially an adequate and reliable

00:06:57 as essentially an adequate and reliable substitute for having a specialist fire safety engineer in your chain as a subcontractor

00:07:11 i think not just building control but also the the again apologies to repeat myself but the

00:07:20 but having a special subcontractor that's dealing with a specialism whatever it be a a design team that

00:07:33 a design team that has knowledge should have knowledge should understand design in accordance with building regulations and then for all of that work then to be checked by the building control

00:07:45 control officer not only plans but also the installation then then that's we saw that is all i'd ever seen to be fair in my experience at that time right

00:07:59 at that time right well we'll come to building control uh later in your evidence let's leave that there for the moment can i pick up matters where i was going to after this morning can i go to

00:08:11 go to one ryd4015 three three

00:08:16 this is an email chain uh on the 18th of november 2013

00:08:32 right we've got it um this is an email chain initially between peter blythe uh and of artelia and claire williams of the tmo

00:08:40 the tmo and peter arnold of who i think is writing isn't he yes he was on the 18th of november and it was discussing the bidders conference at granville tower on the 50 on the 5th of december 2015.

00:08:53 on the 50 on the 5th of december 2015. did you attend that conference do you remember yes you did what happened there what do you remember what was discussed uh i think there was two parts to it there was um an initial site visit walk around

00:09:05 an initial site visit walk around where we met um in the foyer of grenfell us and other um our competitors

00:09:16 had a brief overview of the of the project

00:09:19 project from what i i believe probably questions and answers um and then we all went over to um another building um another rvkc

00:09:30 um another building um another rvkc building might have been the hub i'm not sure

00:09:32 sure where there is a formal presentation of the of the tender

00:09:38 now at the top of the email chain we can see that you are included

00:09:45 uh and you send the chain on to katie beshellier and peter arnold along with a document that you find online you see that info sound on web you see that and that is at ryd401543

00:10:02 sorry three four i'm sorry i've misread that one five three four ryd40 is one five three four

00:10:17 and it is entitled

00:10:21 the royal borough of kensington and chelsea

00:10:24 chelsea housing and property scrutiny committee

00:10:29 i'm sorry it's just taking a little bit of time to come up let me give the reference again it's ryd four zeros one five three four

00:10:39 there it is thank you uh it's a royal borough of kensington chelsea housing a property scrutiny committee minute or report dated the 16th of july

00:10:50 minute or report dated the 16th of july 2013

00:10:52 2013 the purpose of which as you can see was to update

00:10:55 to update on grenfell tower improvement works and recent power surges the purpose of the report is to inform members of the grenfell tower improvement works and recent power surges you see that um is this a document you've

00:11:06 is this a document you've um read since 2013 no all right let's look at page three

00:11:17 at paragraph 5.2 since january the design team has been working with ledbitter the proposed contractor to bring the scheme within budget and to ensure that the project will deliver value for money progress has been slow and led but to

00:11:28 progress has been slow and led but to currently estimate the cost of the works to be 11.278 million pounds including inclusive of fees which is 1.6 million pounds above the current proposed budget

00:11:39 above the current proposed budget and then it says underneath that at 5.3 a range of options have been considered to bring the scheme within budget it is now proposed to market test that works through an open ojeu

00:11:51 works through an open ojeu tender to ensure that the best contractor is selected and value for money achieved and then in in 5.4 it says in tandem with this procurement process the design team will undertake a value

00:12:02 the design team will undertake a value engineering quotes on quotes process to maximize the delivery of key project outputs within the proposed budget

00:12:10 budget and when you won the tender following the

00:12:14 the tender exercise in the spring of 2014 did you understand or did you know that the tma's budget was

00:12:22 was 1.6 million pounds too small or too low um i don't at the time no i wouldn't have remembered if i'd have read all this and i wouldn't have remembered it no

00:12:34 i wouldn't have remembered it no i don't remember it being discussion okay d did you know or understand that a priority if not the priority let's try to be fair to the tml on this question

00:12:46 tml on this question a priority of the tma was to achieve the refurbishment of grenfell tower at the lowest cost possible i would have yes i would have guessed that would have been a priority you would have guessed it did you know it did you have a discussion with ms

00:12:57 did you have a discussion with ms williams about it um to madison about it no i don't believe there's any discussion about we must achieve the lowest right price possible okay now can i then take you to an email

00:13:10 okay now can i then take you to an email at the time you were involved a little bit later ryd3086624 this is an email from stephen blake on the 7th of january 2014

00:13:29 ryd3086624

00:13:33 and

00:13:39 this time i think it's right that ryden was still putting his tender together for the project wasn't it yes mr blake in his witness statement says that your role involved overseeing procurement so can

00:13:51 involved overseeing procurement so can we assume that you were heavily involved in the procurement exercise at the time of this email uh well yes i was i was involved in

00:14:01 so the estimators effectively put the finance together the money together and go and get the quotes um i would work with the estimators to decide how packages are put together

00:14:14 decide how packages are put together should we put it that way have packages put together we would draw in our collective experiences to which subcontractors of supply chain we would prefer to go to

00:14:26 prefer to go to and then generally i would talk to the supply chain not all but the key members of supply chain

00:14:33 chain to understand programme construction elements of that okay i want to ask you about mr blake's email to paul featherston she you i think

00:14:44 to paul featherston she you i think wouldn't have seen you'd have seen the one from katy percelia to which this is an answer but he says uh to mr featherston a js wright high paul can this be reviewed in my view

00:14:55 reviewed in my view grenfell is the best opportunity that ryden have

00:15:01 did mr blake ever say anything like that to you at this time or indeed at any time

00:15:06 time um not that i recall but i would again i'm assuming but i would read into that that you know we would know what tenders that

00:15:17 you know we would know what tenders that we were um we were looking at and what tenders were favorable we had a chance with or we didn't have a chance with and and i'm i'm guessing that's what steve's saying but right i'm afraid you

00:15:29 steve's saying but right i'm afraid you have to ask dave right okay now this was i think your first job and you took it on as contracts manager it was so that would have been quite an exciting prospect for you is it

00:15:41 exciting prospect for you is it uh yes yes now you i think were dependent on subcontractor packages weren't you yes you didn't prepare a bill of quantities yourself uh no and if if we had prepared a bill

00:15:54 uh no and if if we had prepared a bill we may have prepared a bill on certain elements of the of the job but that wouldn't be by myself that would be what i won the estimate

00:16:00 estimate no and certainly you hadn't done so ryden hadn't done so as at the end of january

00:16:04 january 2014 had they okay yeah did i record it yet now given that tenders were due uh all responses to the tender exercise we're due from some from uh bidders at the end of january

00:16:15 from uh bidders at the end of january 2014 were you under some kind of time pressure to get quotes in from subcontractors i think i think we're always under sign pressure in a in a tender so

00:16:26 pressure in a in a tender so yes ms bushellier says in her witness statement

00:16:30 statement that you usually allow subcontractors three to four weeks would you agree with that

00:16:33 that yes yes at this time you didn't i think focus on what cladding products were being

00:16:39 being proposed in the nbs specification or did you um not particularly as in sorry in what respect i'm not

00:16:50 respect i'm not understanding what you're meaning uh you didn't identify um what cladding products so for example h92 the rain screen uh with the subject

00:17:04 h92 the rain screen uh with the subject of of of bid packages coming in from subcontractors such as those in the position of harley yes yes

00:17:10 yes yes right you say yes you mean you agree you didn't focus on those uh specifically about the cladding yes focus on the cladding not not any more than any

00:17:21 not not any more than any any others at the time i think we went out to two cladding contractors right um so and they would have had all the information that we had relating to the cladding my point is you

00:17:32 relating to the cladding my point is you simply left it to the the cladding subcontractors to or any other subcontractor in respect of their package to bid for what was in the package

00:17:41 package yes yes now can i ask you to look at paragraph 20 of your witness statement at ryd3094220 page four

00:17:52 you say there that prior to ryden being formally awarded the contract i understood that kctmo contacted jeff henton

00:18:01 henton managing director of ryden or steve blake refurbishment director of writing i understand that it was felt that we were best placed to win the tender i became aware of this when an email was forwarded on to me

00:18:12 when an email was forwarded on to me from steve blake now let's see if we can see that ryd403279 please

00:18:31 three two seven nine this is an email of the 11th of march march from jeff henton to alan sharrick's and

00:18:42 from jeff henton to alan sharrick's and you

00:18:43 you and indeed others at ryden subject grenfell tower and he says hi team i've spoken with peter madison at kensington and chelsea tmo limited who informs me that our

00:18:54 tmo limited who informs me that our price for the above is in first place allied to which our presentation and documentation is also in first place therefore subject to a small amount of value engineering

00:19:05 a small amount of value engineering peter should be in a position to recommend our appointment on this scheme to his board early next week

00:19:12 now at this stage it's right isn't it that ryden hadn't officially been suggested as the preferred contractor that didn't come until a little bit later in march do you recall that yeah i would i wouldn't recall the dates

00:19:24 yeah i would i wouldn't recall the dates but yes if you say so right uh it's also right isn't it that the ojeu

00:19:30 the ojeu tender process wasn't complete it was still continuing yeah i don't know you don't know was it common in your experience at the time for indications such as this to be given

00:19:42 for indications such as this to be given outside the formal uh procurement framework or timetable um i don't really know because it wouldn't generally wouldn't come to me if i'm involved i'm not sure that that's

00:19:54 if i'm involved i'm not sure that that's the actual email that i might be referring to in my i think there may be another right i don't know the timing around it in any case i think we've seen that you did appreciate before you attended the

00:20:06 did appreciate before you attended the bidder's day as you've we've discussed that the project was over budget and value engineering would be needed to bring it down yes we knew that you knew the documents at the very least yeah and i think you knew

00:20:17 knew at the time of the indication that you were the winners that significant value engineering would require to be done by ryden yes great in practice is it right that the work of

00:20:29 in practice is it right that the work of determining the value engineering options

00:20:31 options to be presented to your client was undertaken by the estimating team

00:20:38 um the writer as far as the actual putting the finance together yes yes so that's uh ms porcelliae and zack maynard yes katie burchellier and zach may yeah what was your involvement in that

00:20:49 was your involvement in that process um [Music]

00:20:53 [Music] we i think the only involvement

00:20:57 i mean to talk it really probably talking to the um talking to js wright and probably talking to harley's because i knew both subcontractors from previous

00:21:09 knew both subcontractors from previous jobs so

00:21:10 jobs so um and probably knew them better than um certainly katie maybe not zach but certainly katie so we would all we would all as a team be going to them saying

00:21:21 going to them saying what what is there what's available what what options have you got did you oversee their actual calculations and the work product they produced

00:21:30 produced who did you know that would be that would be

00:21:33 would be um katie and zach yes they did it did anyone ever see that uh it wouldn't be myself i mean steve would have a we'd have an adjudication before we

00:21:44 we'd have an adjudication before we actually

00:21:45 actually submitted the tender um so steve would have a

00:21:48 have a would look through that right but at the time when they then undertook value engineering itself and did some further work which we'll come to were you involved with

00:21:59 come to were you involved with overseeing that or was that somebody else

00:22:01 else i wasn't overseeing i would have been cognizant of what's going on right i wouldn't

00:22:05 wouldn't okay and who did who was overseeing that work just to press the point a bit i would admit well i would say it was done by katie and then zach would oversee as uh managing surveyor i see

00:22:16 surveyor i see okay so he was her line manager on that exercise

00:22:19 exercise yes and who was his line manager um at the time i can't remember the gentleman's name there was a commercial director

00:22:29 director um was that steve blake no steve blake's steve blake was the refurb director he's a refurb director but there is a commercial director as well and i can't recall the name i'm sorry i i see

00:22:44 now uh in her statement katie bercellio tells us that um

00:22:53 zach reported to steve blake

00:22:57 uh does that ring a bell with you well yeah he would i think if you actually look to line manager well it's probably a question for zach to answer really but if you looked at

00:23:08 if you looked at the line manager he's probably the commercial director right but as as he's um pretty common um that he would feed into he would feed into steve i see so steve

00:23:21 he would feed into steve i see so steve would be a line manager although probably

00:23:26 i see so you weren't in her chain of command at all then no i follow now by this point ryden had in its tender i think offered a a price

00:23:37 price for the for zinc honeycomb but an alternative price for acm

00:23:43 yes that sounds right yeah yes and and that resulted in a saving of 243 and sixty seven pounds does that ring a bell with you yeah yeah there's i think there's various cost options depending

00:23:54 there's various cost options depending on

00:23:55 on yes um yeah yes well we'll come to look at the

00:23:58 at the document in a moment um well let's look at it actually art four zeros rt402087 let's just pick this up so that it's clear

00:24:10 clear this is the tender submission and if we go to page 15 please uh you can see

00:24:22 uh you can see uh cladding this is cost for alternative delights

00:24:27 delights design solutions refer to drawing specification room data sheets for the full scope of works and then item one is cladding new aluminium cladding including necessary support insulation

00:24:38 including necessary support insulation etcetera to facade of tower and there's a red figure of 243 067 pounds

00:24:44 pounds as a saving that that that's what you put forward well ryden put forward in the tender submission yes and can you help us with that where that figure comes from

00:24:55 figure comes from uh it would come from initially it would come from harley yeah now as ryden's contract was a fixed price contract any savings from the contract some would

00:25:06 any savings from the contract some would have to be deducted wouldn't make from sums otherwise payable to ryden under the contract could you say that again yeah because ryden had a fixed price contract

00:25:17 ryden had a fixed price contract any savings on that contract some would need to

00:25:21 need to need to be deducted wouldn't they need to come off you'd get less the saving would be passed on to the client yes sorry yes yes now let's look further on ryd3086654

00:25:35 this is an email

00:25:39 chain between katy perrchellier and steve blake discussing grenfell on the 11th and 12th of march 2014 and if we look at page two over the page

00:25:50 and if we look at page two over the page we can see uh katy perchelier saying to steve blake this is 11th of march uh steve just to let you know i found the francism

00:26:01 the francism in grenfell he hasn't added the provisional sums 212 000 pounds to our cost

00:26:09 and there's a response to that we'll come back to in in a moment um did you can you help with what that means well do you understand what that means

00:26:21 do you understand what that means well i'm assuming there is a an adding up error

00:26:25 up error um and it by one of the estimators to the tune of 212 000 pounds it appears that way yes right were you aware of that at the time so around the 11th 12th of march

00:26:38 so around the 11th 12th of march i don't recall it and i wouldn't necessarily be aware of all the um financial um adding up and all the backup that

00:26:49 um adding up and all the backup that went to it that's not my okay well it may be that you can't help us as much as others from ryden can

00:26:54 ryden can but let's see how we go um do you know what do you know what she meant meant by francism um i think the uh the particular person probably and i'm

00:27:05 the particular person probably and i'm making assumptions on this probably um i've made a few errors in the past frank smith is that oh yeah i'm assuming that's who she maintains right okay well we can ask her about that do

00:27:17 okay well we can ask her about that do do you remember at the time seeing any records or being involved in any discussions about this um under pricing of 212 000 pounds i don't recall it at all no did you know about it at the time

00:27:29 about it at the time um i don't remember it at all really okay um well let's just look and see how far we can go page one of this uh email run please mr blake's response um and again it's only between mr blake

00:27:42 um and again it's only between mr blake and and ms porcellia disappointing but not unexpected hopefully there will be something to compensate the tas must be wrong what's it what's tas i don't i don't know uh it'd be one of the ryden

00:27:53 know uh it'd be one of the ryden documents

00:27:54 documents right when we complete the value engineering exercise we will reissue accordingly let's see where we go and then she comes back to him it may be that it

00:28:02 that it may be sort of tender analysis summary that's that may be one of the i see okay and

00:28:09 and he says hopefully there will be something to compensate

00:28:14 and i know that you aren't in on this but does help me is mr blake suggesting that additional value engineering savings will be found to make up the error um

00:28:26 i don't i don't really know but i think it's probably best for him to answer but okay well let's just finish the round off

00:28:34 round off katie bachelier goes back to steve blake same day reed grenfell yes the bill figure is incorrect resulting in our tender figure being 212 000 pounds lower than it should be i think we will recover this from harleys by taking the timber window

00:28:47 harleys by taking the timber window reveals out of their package but that will mean we'll have to work a little bit harder in finding some significant value engineering savings did you know anything of this discussion

00:28:58 did you know anything of this discussion at the time or or even afterwards um i knew that harley's didn't end up doing the window reveals but quite all of this going on no not not that i recall

00:29:09 that i recall but that wouldn't be unusual because the financial side of the bid was dealt with by the estimators rather myself right did you know at the time or did you have any understanding at the time that ryden

00:29:20 time that ryden were under pressure to find value engineering savings in order to secure the appointment and also under further pressure because they've been a 212 pound thousand pound under valuation

00:29:34 pound thousand pound under valuation by error in the tender i don't remember the tinder error right but i do know that we obviously we're being asked to find some ve savings i see

00:29:45 some ve savings i see when you say you don't remember the tender era how clear in your mind are you

00:29:48 you about that i don't i don't recall this okay this chain of events

00:29:56 events but it was six years ago indeed

00:30:05 do you remember whether ryden told the tmo that its tender was too low to the tune of two hundred and twelve thousand pounds i don't recall

00:30:16 is it is it fair to say and maybe this is for somebody else but that right having been told it was in first place of the contract didn't want to endanger

00:30:25 endanger its pole position by issuing any correction of in the price to the tmo i mean that's that's probably for steve to answer

00:30:34 to answer um

00:30:46 now let's look at your witness statement paragraph 21

00:30:57 page four you say um following the initial approach you see that

00:31:08 that uh from the kctmo ryden was asked to meet with the kctmo to talk through the available options in particular alternative products for the scheme as the kctmo needed to achieve around eight hundred thousand pounds of savings from

00:31:19 hundred thousand pounds of savings from the original tender price they provided ryden jeff henton steve blake katie bashalian myself with a list of areas in which it was felt the savings may be achieved

00:31:30 uh so eight hundred thousand pounds was the working figure was it it psp yes yes uh now if you add 212 000 pounds as a tender error to that

00:31:42 000 pounds as a tender error to that that gives you 1.012 million as a deficit before you even start doesn't it as a as a deficit yeah you're under water you've got you've got to find

00:31:54 water you've got you've got to find uh over a million pounds of value engineering in order both to to satisfy your client uh and to maintain your profit level um

00:32:05 uh and to maintain your profit level um i suppose you've phrased it that way then yes we have yeah that's a bit of a challenge or would have been a bit of a challenge

00:32:12 no um yes i mean there was some items to items that were identified and and looked at yeah well i mean put it this way a million pounds is more than 10 of your of your tender figure

00:32:26 of your of your tender figure yes and there was and there was item this is what the tmo were requesting um they'd obviously set out plans in their tender of um alternative products so yeah

00:32:39 um alternative products so yeah now mr harris in his statement recalls or he rather records that he recalls that you told him in march 2014 that the project was around a million pounds over

00:32:50 project was around a million pounds over budget

00:32:51 budget do you remember such a conversation with mark harris of harley i don't remember it but it's it's possible i don't remember it right if it's possible that it's possible that you knew that the

00:33:03 you knew that the uh that there had been this error of over two hundred thousand pounds in the bid

00:33:06 bid or it's possible i'd just round up eight hundred thousand pounds to make it a million

00:33:10 million it is uh can we look at

00:33:16 ryd403295 please

00:33:23 uh now um let's just note the timing and the subject matter

00:33:34 if you look at the first email on that page towards the bottom the second half caterpillar shelley a to steve blake and now you

00:33:44 now you simon lawrence and alan sharrix and zach maynard grenfell cladding see that yes all starting or staring but starting to think about ve for grenfell

00:33:55 ve for grenfell looking at frank's comparison harley are expensive on the windows and then there are some figures set out there maybe worth discussing with harley to see if they can come down on price

00:34:07 to see if they can come down on price before they start looking at ve thoughts question mark now is it fair to say that ryden had identified the cladding system you see harley in there the

00:34:20 system you see harley in there the cladding system is an area of potential saving

00:34:24 saving uh from at least this point

00:34:29 uh there was definitely va relating to the cladding yes yeah i think this is talking about windows isn't it well it's talking about harley alternative system and then other

00:34:40 harley alternative system and then other solutions

00:34:41 solutions sorry if i can just explain this we we

00:34:47 from what i can see here we've obviously gone to get a price from um subcontractors that will just fit windows and we've gone to get a price from a sub contractor harley

00:34:58 contractor harley and i think one other that will do cladding

00:35:02 cladding and windows combined yes which is not an unusual thing to do but it would be preferable to go with one contractor bearing our mind how closely linked the actual

00:35:14 mind how closely linked the actual physical works are that would oversee both elements yes now looking at the next email up steve blake back to the same group

00:35:25 blake back to the same group including you we are going to be asked by k and c kensington and chelsea to find some further value engineering savings in addition to those identified in our tender let's wait until this approach is made before going to the supply chain in

00:35:37 before going to the supply chain in terms of value allocation we took care to make provision against a specification that was exactly compliant peter m is going to forward some ideas tomorrow

00:35:47 tomorrow is peter m peter madison i would assume did you know that he'd been in contact with mr blake personally

00:35:55 this this email i think there might be another one but only via these emails what did you know at the time of these conversations nothing more than these emails really okay did you have a conversation with mr

00:36:06 okay did you have a conversation with mr blake about what he had discussed with mr madison at this time um i don't recall any anything specific but um i would have been in around the office as would steve had done so

00:36:18 office as would steve had done so it would have been in line with these emails i would expect ryd403298 please 3298

00:36:34 and this is your response to steve blake 12th march steve i suppose there is also the eco-funding route to input against their shortfall

00:36:45 who is they or there in that is that the tmo

00:36:52 yes yes that's how i see that did you recognize then at the time that the tmo didn't have the budget to meet the specification yes i think they yes

00:37:06 well to me when you say meet the specification to meet the um to meet their top specification you also had the other acm options and then i think there

00:37:18 other acm options and then i think there were some other options in the tender that we were asked to look at yes yes thank you would you accept that this exchange shows that you were personally engaged from at least this stage in suggesting methods of value

00:37:30 stage in suggesting methods of value engineering for this project yes whilst not involved necessary in the finance but the overall generally knowing what's going on i didn't i can't recall the

00:37:42 didn't i can't recall the 212 000 pound email but um but yes i was understanding that we needed to find we need to talk to the supply chain yeah and then mr blake comes back on the same

00:37:53 and then mr blake comes back on the same day

00:37:54 day uh to you actually as the as the primary recipient of the email copy to others definitely he's going to take a view on what is available at his risk what did you understand mr blake to mean by his risk

00:38:06 by his risk well i think it's relating to the eco funding and i think there wasn't but i think i i know that there wasn't a definitive amount on offer right i think is is his

00:38:17 amount on offer right i think is is his a reference to peter madison i would yes that's how i'd read that right can i ask you to look at ryd403302 please

00:38:30 and this is an email of the 13th of march from david gibson to mr blake towards the bottom of the page i think you'll probably have to go over to the second page

00:38:41 over to the second page picking it up at the bottom of page one david gibson 13th march to steve blake and can we please have the text of the next page peter madison of the tmo has given me your contact details i understand you're currently in a meeting

00:38:52 understand you're currently in a meeting that's how it starts and then it goes on i've attached a simple spreadsheet indicating the areas we would like you to look at in relation to possible savings our target is sir car 800 000 pounds which included

00:39:04 sir car 800 000 pounds which included the cladding savings already priced and any grant income to the scheme see that yes and then he uh says a little bit lower down the email can you also confirm if you can make a meeting on monday afternoon with peter myself

00:39:16 on monday afternoon with peter myself and claire williams the project manager for the scheme at our offices it might be useful if you can bring your estimator also [Applause] now the spreadsheet

00:39:27 now the spreadsheet that's referred to by david gibson in that email which i understand you didn't see uh or you weren't copied in on is at ryd403301

00:39:38 is at ryd403301 and we need the native version of that please

00:39:56 and uh you can see from that document um that the works budget is eight eight million four hundred and fifteen thousand pounds

00:40:07 thousand pounds the cost savings to be made need to be in the region of 800 000 pounds and then it sets out some areas not exhaustive uh which um in which savings might be

00:40:18 uh which um in which savings might be found

00:40:19 found see that yes and then underneath that is item three cladding subject to planning approval was mentioned in the tender as alternative costs and there's the 243 figure again

00:40:35 now did you understand that at this stage and i know you weren't a recipient of this email or this spreadsheet but in general did you do you recall that you were being asked to better

00:40:46 being asked to better that proposed saving to improve on it um i think they would have if we could have improved in it i think they they would obviously be happy to um

00:40:58 they would obviously be happy to um i think that's that's just setting out the areas that they feel that they could achieve an 800k saving right

00:41:11 now can i take you back to paragraph 20 of your statement

00:41:19 uh you uh

00:41:22 say there uh that uh i understood that the kctmo

00:41:27 the kctmo contacted jeff henton managing director of ryden or steve blake refurbishment director of ryden i understand it was felt we were best placed to win the tender

00:41:34 tender i became aware of this when an email was forwarded on to me from steve blake uh in fact uh i think you had been away aware of this a couple of days earlier on about the

00:41:45 a couple of days earlier on about the 11th of march by jeff henson haven't you it does appear that the yeah the dates are slightly yes and that had said that ryden was in first place but subject to finding

00:41:56 first place but subject to finding further cost savings said subject to a small amount of value engineering remember that disagree do you agree that by this time 13th of march 2014 it was clear to everyone

00:42:09 march 2014 it was clear to everyone in senior positions at ryden for this project that ryden's involvement in the project was contingent on ryden finding considerable cost savings on the specification which had originally been proposed by the tmo

00:42:22 proposed by the tmo i think it's um i think i would understand that the project is not just ryden's involvement but in but the project as a whole moving forwards

00:42:32 forwards yes and i think i put to you perhaps wrongly that you hadn't seen the email and spreadsheet but you had i think you've seen i think yeah i had seen it at some point yes yes yes weren't copied and you weren't a recipient of it but you got it back

00:42:43 recipient of it but you got it back or would you exactly yeah now um we we we've seen also earlier that mr blake's view was that this was the best opportunity ryden had

00:42:56 can i ask you to go to um the first um and second emails on on the page we were looking at uh which is uh ryd403302

00:43:18 and picking it up on the it's the second email down but on page one steve blake to gibson

00:43:25 to gibson copper to claire williams and peter madison hi david understand what's required

00:43:29 required and see no reason why this can't be achieved

00:43:33 achieved see that yes now mr blake's response came a little over five hours later the same day before he forwarded the email to you

00:43:48 see that yes did mr blake discuss that email i've just shown you with you before he responded i i don't remember to your knowledge

00:44:00 i i don't remember to your knowledge did he discuss that request and his response with anyone at ryden before he responded i don't recall he may well have done but i don't recall now mr blake wasn't an estimator was he

00:44:11 now mr blake wasn't an estimator was he no but he was uh he was a director so would have a a uh a very good commercial understanding right now again these may be questions for him and he's going to come and assist us but

00:44:22 and he's going to come and assist us but to your knowledge did he actually have the personal expertise or knowledge to be able to work out whether these savings were actually achievable i don't know what date we had him to be able

00:44:32 able to do that now i don't know okay is it fair to say that ryden's position was that it would find the required savings

00:44:41 savings come what may um i think and again a question for steve really but i don't think on the fur first approach or one of the first

00:44:52 first approach or one of the first approaches by a client that you would instantly turn around and say no we can't achieve what you're after

00:44:58 after sorry because you would instantly they would go to the next person in line wouldn't they so i think he's being optimistic but whether he had the financial knowledge behind that

00:45:09 knowledge behind that you'd have to ask dave i don't know thank you now let's look at the top of the page

00:45:13 the page blake steve blake to alan sharrick's and you're copied in on this well in fact you're one of a primary number of primary recipients at uh subject grenfell tower attachments ride and potential cost reduction

00:45:25 ride and potential cost reduction spreadsheet see email chain below and spreadsheet i think that's the spreadsheet we looked at earlier i've spoken to harleys and said that if we can do some significant ve to match their budget we will be recommended

00:45:37 their budget we will be recommended i've asked them to reconfirm their price to double check the allowances we've submitted

00:45:41 submitted i will have the same conversation with js wright meanwhile let's have a brainstorm for further ideas and confirm figures on spreadsheet fingers crossed so is it right that mr

00:45:52 fingers crossed so is it right that mr blake had already spoken to harley and you're now being reminded that what is required is significant value engineering uh well yeah i mean his email saying he spoke with the harley's yeah yes yes

00:46:05 spoke with the harley's yeah yes yes yes what did you understand significant engine value engineering to to indicate financial significance rather than

00:46:16 than yeah anything else a decent amount of money right decent amount of money did you have the brainstorm um i don't i don't recall we may well have done um

00:46:27 done um we might have all had it together sitting in the same room but yeah i'm sure we

00:46:31 sure we have all gone away and sort of ideas right okay do you do do you remember anything of the discussion if there was one um the only discussion or the only discussion i particularly remember

00:46:42 discussion i particularly remember say particularly is relating to the um an option to go away from birch faced plywood for the window linings

00:46:55 and obviously i know about the other well also i know i've seen the list of the other options yeah did you consider the safety of any materials in the in the tender package at this stage or in the the um

00:47:06 in the the um in the spec consider so well we

00:47:13 we were under the assumption that what was being proposed by the client the design team would would be compliant and would be correct but we also would

00:47:23 be looking to you know harley's njs right

00:47:26 right to confirm if there is any errors technically within their submission

00:47:35 yes let's see if we can summarize your understanding at this point mid-march 13th of march to be precise is it right that at this stage you understood that ryden was being asked to

00:47:46 understood that ryden was being asked to assist the tmo to reshape the scheme to provide that one that could fit within the tmos budget yes yes and that you would be undertaking a a different scheme

00:47:57 undertaking a a different scheme uh to which had had been put out to tender

00:48:01 tender uh when you say different we're not talking about masses of difference as if we're not redesigning the whole scheme but yes there will be elements that

00:48:09 that the client would like as either propose and ask for options on or would like us to think of other alternative generally materials methods

00:48:20 generally materials methods and did you know that the tmo was only talking to ryden as a potential main contractor about that no i didn't know that whether they were talking to whether they're having the same conversation with others i see does that does it follow that you

00:48:31 i see does that does it follow that you didn't know one way or the other whether tmo were having the same discussions about value engineering with other bidders yeah i did we didn't know i didn't know okay or indeed being given the opportunity as you were being given

00:48:43 the opportunity as you were being given to value engineer the project down yeah i didn't know if they were or they weren't

00:48:47 weren't okay um let's just look at an email next in the story ryd403315 please

00:49:02 next in the story ryd403315 please this is an email from mark harris of harley of the 14th of march 2014 to steve lake copy to you and others please find the first round of ve options attached for grenfell tower

00:49:17 for grenfell tower and mark harris at harley says this has been presented to show the value of the compliant package with ve cost options below the cladding is shown with four options for the main zinc areas

00:49:28 zinc areas at the risk of stating the obvious the cladding savings are not cumulative only one

00:49:32 one of the four options selected for can be selected with regard to the planners and what they will accept having never met the planners it is difficult for us to comment

00:49:43 it is difficult for us to comment however when we met the architect it has to be said that they were somewhat precious

00:49:46 precious about retaining the spec for the zinc cladding but no doubt budget will be the driver here we've included options for both face fixed as used at camden and secret fixed cassette but again

00:49:57 and secret fixed cassette but again would comment that the architect was none too keen on face fixed when discussed

00:50:01 discussed and he goes on a little bit further so harley was here responding to mr blake's request for value engineering options yes yes um now you got this email at the

00:50:12 yes yes um now you got this email at the time what did you understand the statement no doubt budget will be the driver here at the end of that third paragraph i've just read to you what do you think that meant

00:50:21 meant well if there was already budget pressures and they were looking for va then

00:50:25 then to then go to the most expensive cladding

00:50:30 but i think that's all his comment on do you mean in that last answer then not

00:50:42 do you mean in that last answer then not to go to the most expensive cladding yes yes well sorry i think it may be yes we know they're looking for value engineer options and we know they're looking for a 800k saving then um the driver will be

00:50:55 800k saving then um the driver will be to achieve that 800k saving as opposed to picking the most expensive yeah yes in the light of these emails that we've just been looking at i mean is it fair to say looking at it in the round that ryden

00:51:06 looking at it in the round that ryden and harley were agreed that the emphasis needed to be placed on meeting the tmo's demands as cheaply as possible yes now if we turn to the spreadsheet that's

00:51:19 ryd-3403316 attached to this email

00:51:24 this is what mr harris sends and we can see the four options

00:51:32 here compliant bid based on harley quotation

00:51:36 quotation dated 29th of january 14 is 3.7 odd million pounds and that's on the basis of proteus zinc cassette cladding and birch face plywood window reveals

00:51:47 window reveals and then propose the cost savings uh you've got metal technology windows and curtain walling in lieu of wikona that's a saving of 114 odd thousand then

00:51:58 that's a saving of 114 odd thousand then you've got upvc window reveals in your birch faced plywood that's 74 odd thousand pounds and then you've got

00:52:05 got rayna bond natural zinc cladding cassette in lieu of proteus zinc cladding cassette 157 odd thousand saving

00:52:13 saving rainable natural zinc cladding face fix in

00:52:16 in in lieu of processing clouding a cassette

00:52:20 cassette 279 000 and then you've got rayna bond's standard silver color aluminium cladding cassette in lieu of proteus zinc cladding cassette saving of 419 odd thousand pounds

00:52:32 saving of 419 odd thousand pounds and then rayna bond standard silver color aluminium cladding face fix in lieu of precious zinc cladding cassette saving of 576 odd thousand pounds so a rising scale

00:52:44 odd thousand pounds so a rising scale when it comes to the range screen um when you saw this was it clear to you from this

00:52:52 from this table or spreadsheet that acn cladding was going to be far cheaper than zinc yes was it accepted by this stage between ryden and harley

00:53:03 by this stage between ryden and harley that acm cladding would be used if agreement could be obtained from the relevant parties such as ibkc's planning department yes now in your witness statement if we

00:53:14 yes now in your witness statement if we could just go back to it it's page five please paragraph 22 you refer to a meeting that happened on the 18th of march just taking the story a little bit further forward if we can mr lawrence

00:53:26 further forward if we can mr lawrence you say that i subsequently attended a meeting on tuesday the 18th of march at the office of kctmo along with stephen katie vancilier our estimator i think

00:53:37 katie vancilier our estimator i think the kctma people present with david gibson

00:53:41 gibson peter madison and claire williams at the meeting it was discussed what could be done to bring the project within their revised

00:53:47 revised budget now we have been unable as an inquiry to locate any note or minutes of that meeting do you remember whether any minutes or notes of that meeting were taken by anybody

00:53:59 anybody i don't recall i don't yeah i don't remember

00:54:02 remember seeing any formal minutes right whether anybody took notes individually i don't know do you know whether ryden or anybody anyone in ryden took notes of that meeting

00:54:13 took notes of that meeting um i don't know i'm not sure i did but whether katie or steve did i don't know was there any reason or is there any reason why no

00:54:24 reason or is there any reason why no notes of that meeting were taken

00:54:27 um no i don't know

00:54:32 would it have been unusual for a meeting like that

00:54:35 like that uh when you were meeting your client uh with in

00:54:42 on this topic to have had no notes taken of it at all

00:54:48 um i wouldn't say it was unusual but normally you would you know things would be confirmed on email afterwards if there was a so everybody understood yeah but we'll see what comes out of it i'm just

00:54:59 see what comes out of it i'm just wondering

00:55:00 wondering really whether you can explain why there's not there's no contemporaneous record of this meeting yeah you can't all right i can't do you know whether any of the other bidders had an equal opportunity to present these kinds of value engineering

00:55:12 present these kinds of value engineering options

00:55:13 options at this point to reduce the cost i don't know

00:55:18 even as late as this in march yeah i don't know if they had the other bit is it or not all right let's um let's look at a slightly different kind of document um i'm going to show you something from harley it's it's a progress report sheet

00:55:32 one six har3010160

00:55:38 uh it's a highly progress report sheet for grenfell tower and it starts or it's initiated on the first of march 2013 and its title is sales stroke tender

00:55:49 and its title is sales stroke tender progress report and uh it runs over a number of pages and i'd like to go to page five within it please

00:56:01 it's not a document mr lawrence that i would expect you to have seen at least at the time can i take you on page five to the 12th of march

00:56:13 it says mah that's mark harris we believe

00:56:16 believe call received from simon ryden they have received news off the record that ryden are in pole position they now await formal notification

00:56:29 do you remember that conversation uh not specifically but if we'd have been if i'd have been notified by jeff or steve whichever email come first

00:56:40 jeff or steve whichever email come first then

00:56:41 then yes it wouldn't be unusual to be uh um talking to one of our supply chain members i see i was going to ask you absolutely who told who do you remember who told you

00:56:52 told who do you remember who told you uh that ryden were in pole position it came from that email which was either which ever come first or state i see so is it right that by the time of the 18th of march meeting

00:57:03 18th of march meeting you basically knew that you had got the job but would need to bring the costs down

00:57:08 down we thought we had yes yes but whether whether they were whether the tmo was talking to the other tenderers and saying the same thing we we didn't know but we

00:57:19 thing we we didn't know but we we were optimistic right can i ask you to look at ryd403419

00:57:38 now this is a an email from peter blythe i'm looking at the second email down of artelia to peter arnold at ryden copied to claire williams and jenny

00:57:50 copied to claire williams and jenny jackson at the kt kctmo grenfell tower notice of tender result dear peter please find the attached notice of tender result for the works at grenfell tower and i just ask you to

00:58:02 grenfell tower and i just ask you to note the time of that email which is just before six o'clock in the evening on that day uh i i have assumed but correct me if i'm wrong mr lawrence that the meeting

00:58:13 i'm wrong mr lawrence that the meeting that you had attended with the kctmo to discuss value engineering options had happened earlier in the day would that be right yes correct so this comes

00:58:21 comes on that day at 5 56. uh if we need to look at the letter uh we we can but perhaps we just should actually let's just do that ryd403420 please

00:58:41 this is the letter dated the 18th of march 2014 dear mr arnold noticed the preferred bit of status

00:58:49 of status and you can see from the first and second paragraphs that artelia were telling ryden that ryden was a preferred bidder subject to the agreement of the site boundary and formal approval

00:59:00 boundary and formal approval from the kctmo board so that's the letter

00:59:05 letter uh is it safe my question is this is it safe to say that ryden had done enough at the meeting earlier in the day on the 18th of march to convince the tmo to select it for the project

00:59:15 project obviously yes yeah now moving forward a little bit in time we get a little bit of an idea from what was discussed at that meeting from the next document

00:59:26 next document ryd403489

00:59:30 this is an email of the eighth of the 20th of march 2014 from katy perchelia to peter madison

00:59:37 madison uh and others at the ktcmo kctmo copy to you

00:59:42 you and mr blake all further to our meeting on tuesday please find attached our summary list of value engineering options

00:59:51 as discussed we will continue to look for further savings and identify them as we progress and you can see that one of the attachments to this email was cladding ve

01:00:01 ve options can you see that yes um so can we take it from that mr lawrence that cladding was one of the things discussed at that meeting yes savings on cladding yes yeah

01:00:15 yes savings on cladding yes yeah was there any discussion at that meeting about the level of quality or performance that the tmo was looking for or the compromises that they were prepared to make uh in return for a lower price

01:00:28 in return for a lower price no i don't think anybody was aware of any performance compromises as you're as you're suggesting no we didn't no was there any discussion about fire

01:00:39 no was there any discussion about fire safety

01:00:40 safety absolutely no no

01:00:46 if we look at the email we can see that the attachments included ve options 18th of march 2014 you see attachment sorry attachments ve

01:00:58 you see attachment sorry attachments ve options 1803 14 pdf and also cladding ve options 1803 14. do you know who created those documents

01:01:11 do you know who created those documents uh without seeing them um no but it would

01:01:16 would all right well let's move ahead um i would assume i would assume katie based on the information that i'd assume she's collated a sheet taken from harley but i don't know

01:01:29 taken from harley but i don't know all right we'll look at the document in a moment just sticking with the email if we can

01:01:33 we can for this for the moment they're dated the 18th of march on this email attachment list does that tell us that they were created for the meeting for use at the meeting on the 18th of march

01:01:44 on the 18th of march uh probably do you know no a dog all right i don't recall let's look at one uh ryd

01:01:56 this is one of the documents attached to that email which is ve options 18th of march i think it's the first one

01:02:04 it shows a number of figures with total possible savings listed at the bottom there is 862 041 pounds and its title is grenfell tower value

01:02:16 and its title is grenfell tower value engineering options and under windows and curtain walling you can see the second item down cladding aluminium in lieu of zinc minus 293

01:02:26 293 368 pounds

01:02:31 you see that yes and also in the middle uh pre-finished board in lieu of birchwood surround and saving a hundred and sixteen thousand just focusing on the cladding

01:02:42 thousand just focusing on the cladding uh and the total in fact the total figure was slightly more than the 800 000 pounds that mr gibson had proposed earlier in the month wasn't it yes so it

01:02:53 earlier in the month wasn't it yes so it looks as

01:02:54 looks as on the basis of those figures that it would be possible for the tmo to achieve the savings that it had wanted that be fair yes now looking at the top of the document as we've just seen we see the figure of 293 368 pounds as a

01:03:08 we see the figure of 293 368 pounds as a saving

01:03:09 saving for aluminium in zoo in lieu of zinc was it the case that at this point ryden was confident that it could meet the tmo's target of savings of 800 000 pounds if it made a saving of

01:03:21 of 800 000 pounds if it made a saving of 293

01:03:23 293 368 pounds on the cladding it appears oh yes yeah

01:03:27 yes yeah now let's look at another of the documents she attached uh this is ryd403491 this one is called cladding ve options 18th of march

01:03:38 18th of march 2014. this is another of those attachments to katie bercelia's 20th of march email and if you look at the top of that document grenfell tower value engineering there are four

01:03:51 engineering there are four alternatives set out there let's just look at them together alternative zinc system cassette saving of a hundred thousand four hundred and six pounds

01:04:02 six pounds alternative zinc system face fixed a saving of 202 372 pounds alternative aluminium system cassette

01:04:11 cassette a saving of 293 368 pounds and alternative aluminium system phase fixed

01:04:18 fixed a saving of 376 175 pounds now just looking at those and digesting those options it's clear is is it or was

01:04:31 those options it's clear is is it or was clear to you at the time that that the biggest saving would come from faced fixed aluminium acm cladding yes and that would be a saving of three

01:04:43 yes and that would be a saving of three hundred and seventy six thousand one hundred and seventy five pounds yes and the next largest down was cassette fixed aca and a saving of three hundred and 293 eight pounds yes

01:04:54 three hundred and 293 eight pounds yes right and i've labored those figures because they're important figures to keep in mind as to where we're going next with them did you at the time have any idea of the difference between cassette and face

01:05:06 difference between cassette and face fixed

01:05:07 fixed yes what was that difference please well the cassettes were effectively hidden fixings and they were

01:05:15 were folded into trays which is what eventually was installed and face fixed were flat panels that were effectively riveted to the rail system

01:05:26 effectively riveted to the rail system but the

01:05:27 but the fixings were exposed did you investigate why

01:05:31 why face fixed were so significantly cheaper than cassette i think we i think we knew i think the um

01:05:39 um there's a lot of work that goes into face fix you take a flat sheet and put four holes in it ten holes in it whatever

01:05:46 whatever needed where a cassette fixed needs to go through um fabrication um to fold the sheet bend the sheet

01:05:57 to fold the sheet bend the sheet manipulate the sheet into whatever shape it needs to go so there's a

01:06:02 a there's a lot more upfront cost did you know

01:06:06 know or have any reason to believe that they might perform differently when exposed to fire no did you investigate that subject

01:06:17 looking back at ryd and just keep those figures in your mind for a moment 293 odd 376 odd for the aluminiums let's now look back

01:06:29 for the aluminiums let's now look back at

01:06:31 at three one ryd403316

01:06:38 and here we see the spreadsheet sent to mr shelley and you by harley on the 14th of march four days before ryden produced these the ve cladding document

01:06:47 document we've just looked at and here we see the four options and there are the different figures and for cassette and face fixed at the bottom

01:06:58 bottom we have a saving for cassette of 419 627 pounds and for face fixed we have a saving of 576

01:07:10 for face fixed we have a saving of 576 973 pounds can you account for the fact that in each case the saving presented to the tmo

01:07:19 tmo where the face fixed or cassette were for much less than the saving harley were presenting to you uh i would i would suggest by that um although not my area of expertise that

01:07:30 although not my area of expertise that that ryden took some of the savings for themselves right do you know that um judging by the figures yes did you know that at the time i think i probably

01:07:41 know that at the time i think i probably did yes

01:07:45 why were the savings detailed by mr harris

01:07:49 harris not passed on in full to the tma that's not

01:07:52 not that's a question that either steve or the financial team would have to answer it may well be mr lawrence but do you know sitting there the answer to my question if i would assume it went against

01:08:04 assume it went against risk or additional profit

01:08:12 i think you're suggesting that the savings that could be achieved on the switch to acm are over 100 000 pounds less

01:08:18 less than the lowest of the harley figure that's right isn't it if that's how it adds up then yes yeah

01:08:26 given that you had appreciated long before the production of these documents the budget was a priority for the tmo why was it not writing's responsibility

01:08:37 why was it not writing's responsibility to alert the tmo to the fact that harley had advised that far greater savings could be achieved than you were letting on

01:08:44 on again i don't think that's a question that i can answer i think that's one that needs to be answered by either steve or the financial team well i can understand you answering it that way in terms of response legal responsibility or even moral

01:08:56 legal responsibility or even moral responsibility my question is do you know the reason

01:09:01 as to why they why they did yes as i said a minute ago it probably went into either risk or into which effectively additional profit

01:09:13 profit was the plan in ryden to keep the tmo in the dark about the real extent of the savings on the acm panels and then pocket the difference to make up the shortfall caused by

01:09:24 the shortfall caused by frank smith's 212 000 pound estimating that could be the reason for it mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes i think it is thank you we'll have a break now mr lawrence um

01:09:36 lawrence um i think 25 past will be the good time to come back

01:09:40 come back so if you over the usher remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room please thanks for watching

01:09:55 25 thank you very much

01:24:23 right would you ask mr lawrence to come back please

01:24:28 i did say 25 first yeah

01:24:38 right mr lawrence ready to go keep going yes thank you mr lawrence do you yes having looked at these figures that it was in ryden's interests its own commercial interests to push the selection of uh rain upon

01:24:51 push the selection of uh rain upon standard

01:24:51 standard uh silver acm cassette all face fix yes yes and mainly face fixed because that's where the biggest savings came yes um can i take you

01:25:02 savings came yes um can i take you forward in time to uh early april 2014 and go back please to

01:25:09 please to the uh mark harris sales tender progress reporter har3010160

01:25:21 at page six and here you'll see 2nd of april middle of the page file note you see

01:25:34 middle of the page file note you see that's simon advised by mike albiston he's harley but no decision will be made on ve until the contract has been formally awarded to avoid other mcs being given the impression

01:25:45 impression that they were not given equal opportunity to look at ve in the interim we have been asked to obtain a ned zinc sample for comparison purposes

01:25:54 purposes the current exercise of obtaining alternative samples is being referred to as the design process simon will be in contact next week to set up a meeting with us uh now simon i think is is you or is

01:26:06 uh now simon i think is is you or is that wrong i would assume that was me yes were you concerned

01:26:12 concerned uh well let me let me first of all ask you

01:26:15 you did the discussion with mr albuston that's recorded here by mr harris take place

01:26:24 um he may well have done again right i don't recall it but it may will have done

01:26:28 done can we proceed on the basis that what what is recorded here against that date in this violate is accurate okay yes okay um were you concerned that other contractors would be given the

01:26:40 other contractors would be given the impression that they weren't given equal opportunity to look at ve

01:26:48 um well the the note gives the impression it was um i don't recall that being an issue at the time but right again apologies but it's it's six

01:26:59 right again apologies but it's it's six odd years ago so i understand um was artelia or the tmo concerned

01:27:04 concerned about the fact that other main contractors have not been given equal opportunity to look at ve do you remember any discussion about that or no no it seems that if this note is

01:27:15 no no it seems that if this note is accurate

01:27:18 you at least had a concern that other mcs

01:27:22 mcs might have been given the impression that they weren't given an equal opportunity to look at value engineering was that a concern of yours um not not particularly um

01:27:33 um not not particularly um not so that i don't recall the note um i think we'd been awarded the or provisionally awarded the contract by then

01:27:45 then so no i'm not i don't really recall the conversation at all so right or having any concern about the other tenders no i can appreciate you not remembering it but on the

01:27:56 you not remembering it but on the footing that mr harris's note of what mr albuston was told by you is accurate my question is really whether you can tell us anything about what concerns you had on this topic at the time

01:28:08 you had on this topic at the time uh nice don't recall them okay now can i ask you to look at hr har 50927 please

01:28:26 this is an email from you to mark harris at harley copy to mike albuston of harley

01:28:32 harley 17th of april 2014 and at the base of page one

01:28:37 page one uh mr harris says that he sent you some ferrier point cladding details and he says he's put a dropbox invite over to you and your response is thanks for this you

01:28:49 and your response is thanks for this you see the top of the page i've spoken to bruce studio e architects this afternoon i've confirmed that i'm happy for him to contact yourselves but to ensure that i'm copied and copied in so we keep some sort of protocol guidelines from the start

01:29:01 protocol guidelines from the start he may be after details to get the render drawings correct it may be worth inviting him into the dropbox relevant dropbox file saves me copying and pasting info into another into an email

01:29:12 another into an email one thing i would ask which i'm sure you'll do anyway is that anything financial

01:29:17 financial stays between ourselves

01:29:23 is it fair to say that what you meant by that was that harley shouldn't disclose to anyone

01:29:29 to anyone else any discussions that it was having with ryden in relation to the financing the money side of the grenfell tower project

01:29:37 project uh yes particularly um

01:29:43 studio e would i would expect studio e to

01:29:50 push for the most um [Music]

01:29:54 [Music] architectural pleasing aesthetically pleasing

01:29:57 pleasing um design overall um and what i wasn't keen on was um harley's and bruce getting together

01:30:08 um harley's and bruce getting together um coming up with a um an elaborate design that was more than we'd attempt we'd sort of tended against um and there being additional costs coming from

01:30:20 being additional costs coming from harley to us so i was keen on making sure that anything financial stayed with us and stayed away from studio or was it because you were concerned in

01:30:32 or was it because you were concerned in case tmo find out found out that you were pocketing the savings no not that it wouldn't have been my concern to be fair right now let's go to har50944

01:30:50 this is an email from mr kai fabinki of uh

01:30:59 uh studio e in fact it's over the second we want i think the second page of this please first

01:31:07 first uh which is kai fabian studio e writing to mark harris at harley 25th of april 2014. so we moved on in this

01:31:16 this in time halfway through that email he said uh

01:31:19 said uh after a reference to um the spandrel panel design could you please let us know if this could be done using the secret fixing system or if it has to be face fixed rivets would both fixing systems be

01:31:31 rivets would both fixing systems be within the budget if face fixed what would be what would the vertical centers of the t-rails and horizontal centers of the c channels need to be if secret fixed what would be the vertical centers of the supports need to be

01:31:42 centers of the supports need to be please let us know your comments and how you would propose to detail the interfaces recess joints and folds and the rain screen supports see that and

01:31:53 if you go to page one please you can see that the email was addressed to mr harris but then you responded uh over an hour or about an hour later

01:32:04 uh over an hour or about an hour later that day

01:32:05 that day to kai favianki directly cop as all as well as to mark harris copy to mr sones and you you thank him for the images uh and you in the third line you say this

01:32:17 and you in the third line you say this whilst they're definitely one of our close supply chain partners this is a reference to harley and i would hope they will be working with us on this project nothing has been signed or agreed yet because of this they aren't able to offer full design development at this

01:32:29 offer full design development at this stage as they would be at risk so some of the more technical questions can't be fully answered yet i'm not sure that they're relevant to the planners at the moment and then you say in order to design a system that achieves the client's

01:32:40 system that achieves the client's requested budget we need to be making everything face fixed and from flat sheet where possible every bird mouse joint or recessed corner adds cost because there's an additional manufacturing or fabrication process

01:32:50 process to fold the flat sheet into shape and the supporting structure behind is often more involved now let's just pause there do you accept that the emails we've been talking about show that ryden had itself calculated

01:33:01 show that ryden had itself calculated that it was in fact able to meet the client's budget even accounting for the eight hundred thousand pounds by using a cassette fix system yes yes and in fact those calculations

01:33:12 yes and in fact those calculations enable the riding to meet the client's budget and retain a profit of about 126 000 pounds sold for itself okay yeah now do you accept that it was therefore it wasn't

01:33:23 therefore it wasn't true to say that in order to design a system that achieves the client's requested budget we need to be a we need to make everything from face fixed and from flat sheet where possible

01:33:34 um i think that whilst the client was um

01:33:42 the client accepted the um the cassette fix option because it was a less risky option with the planners

01:33:54 the planners but if they could have achieved a face to fix option giving them more saving um than they would have done so so at that time

01:34:05 so so at that time it hadn't gone to the planners it hadn't been discussed with the planners we also weren't

01:34:09 weren't whilst harleys were our preferred supply chain partner they weren't actually guaranteed of the the job although it was highly likely they were

01:34:19 they were would um we would contract with them so i don't think anything was fixed relating to face fix or cassette at the time

01:34:29 time you say in the first sentence of that paragraph in order to design a system that achieves the client's requested budget we need to be making everything face fix

01:34:38 face fix but in fact that wasn't true was it because

01:34:41 because you could have achieved the client's budget even if you'd used cassette which was more expensive

01:34:48 although there was still some risk around the eco funding right so all right but you're nonetheless giving studio e the impression that it had to be faith fixed whereas in fact you knew

01:34:59 be faith fixed whereas in fact you knew didn't you that cassette fixed would actually come within budget yeah exactly employs yes

01:35:15 exactly employs yes did harley know like you knew that it wasn't necessary to use face fixed in order to meet your client's budget i don't know

01:35:27 in fact harley had the pro had been approached by ryden to prepare the savings calculations uh in order to match the budget hadn't they yes

01:35:37 yes yes but they wouldn't have been aware of the other elements necessarily within the epa right and given that you didn't want to

01:35:48 right and given that you didn't want to let

01:35:49 let given that you were it wasn't correct that in order to meet the budget you had to go for

01:35:53 to go for face fixed as opposed to cassette might that have been one of the reasons why you

01:35:57 you wanted harley to keep anything financial between yourselves and not let cdo e know about it uh that could have factored into it thank you don't recall it this one yes move on to ryd404916 please

01:36:14 this is an email of the 22nd of may 2014 from you to claire williams copied to zac maynard ryd 4916 hi claire

01:36:26 4916 hi claire good news hot off the press paragraph one good news hot off the press is that what we believe to be a more expensive acm cladding finish natural aluminium isn't going to be the manufacturers have confirmed that they're willing to supply it at the same

01:36:38 they're willing to supply it at the same price as the other ranges previously discussed

01:36:40 discussed therefore the savings stayed the same as per the attached 29368 cassette or 376 175 face fixed and you attached the two documents which

01:36:51 and you attached the two documents which mr shelley had attached to her email of the 20th of march which we looked at before

01:36:56 before and you can see ve options 18th march and cladding v options 18th march you remember we looked at those before the break now we can look at them again but those

01:37:07 now we can look at them again but those figures weren't were they the savings which were in fact being provided by mr harris of harley on the 14th of march were they as we've established earlier correct because as we know harley had offered savings of five seven seven for

01:37:18 offered savings of five seven seven for face facebook and 420 for cassette so is it is it fair to say that you are again materially understating to the tmo here the extent of the savings on acm panels

01:37:30 the extent of the savings on acm panels uh i was passing on the figures in my email that

01:37:36 i was aware that ryden wanted to pass on indeed

01:37:39 indeed and thereby materially understating to yes cmo

01:37:46 yes [Applause] and you knew that i was aware of it yes

01:37:55 let's move to a slightly different topic which is ryden's provision of cladding information to the tmo and i'd like to scroll back to the start of

01:38:04 of of that exercise in the employer's requirements contained in the jct contract

01:38:09 contract can i ask you to go to that sea 50169 please

01:38:24 uh that's the first page of the nbs spec and at page 69 in it we go to item 235 please that's uh the section uh entitled information to

01:38:37 the section uh entitled information to be provided before commencement etc you see that yes uh information to be provided before commencement of testing or manufacture of rain screen cladding system

01:38:50 of rain screen cladding system do you agree that ryden was obliged to provide

01:38:53 provide information to the tmo on that subject yes

01:39:02 what information did you understand at the time that the tmo were entitled to about cladding of the clatting uh what they prescribed in me right now

01:39:13 uh what they prescribed in me right now we'll come to this in more detail but given your roles to understand and manage contract uh ryden's contractual obligations on the grenfell tower project what steps did you take generally to ensure that the relevant

01:39:25 generally to ensure that the relevant information as identified here at paragraph 235 of the nbs spec was provided to the tmo

01:39:34 um

01:39:38 drawings i believe went across to them um we didn't keep a a tracker or a spreadsheet of of all the other components within this

01:39:51 right so drawings anything else

01:40:04 i don't know if we did the spare parts i don't know if we did the or the rest of it would be part of the rnm and health and safety file you mentioned drawings the first i the first bullet point there is

01:40:17 the first bullet point there is detailed drawings to fully describe fabrication and installation that rather looks as if what you're required to provide to the tmo

01:40:27 tmo is detailed drawings as it says which fully describe fabrication and installation which is hardly stories but were these drawings and calculations uh

01:40:40 were these drawings and calculations uh ever provided to the tma i believe the drawings were but i don't know about the i don't know about the calculations yeah i see ryden themselves didn't produce those drawings no no

01:40:54 what steps did you take to ensure that the information that you were to provide to tmo comprising detailed drawings were adequate and accurate

01:41:09 again by having a specialist subcontractor by having a architect those are the people that are

01:41:19 are able to determine whether those drawings are

01:41:23 are adequate or not

01:41:30 you can see

01:41:35 that at the fourth bullet point down it says certification for incorporated components manufactured by others confirming their suitability for proposed locations

01:41:46 proposed locations in the rain screen cladding how did well how did ryden plan to satisfy itself that the products selected for use

01:41:55 use in the external wall were properly certified

01:41:59 certified or was certified at all um well we would have a we would have a

01:42:07 quality process

01:42:12 and again it's a long while since i've used ryzen's quality process so i couldn't tell you the in-depth steps of that

01:42:19 that um

01:42:24 you say we would have a quality process was that a process which would uh identify the particular materials and this and the certificate that went with it you'd have an inspection and test plan would be part

01:42:35 inspection and test plan would be part of that process

01:42:37 which generally would have certification and and all the elements to do with that that is generally all handed over i know what it says at the very top sentence and i'm sure you'll remind me

01:42:48 sentence and i'm sure you'll remind me of that but that's generally we'll hand over as part of the o m and health and social file so the client ends up with the full information about the built

01:42:59 full information about the built about the building that's before commencement of testing or manufacture of a range screen clouding system isn't it yes so what system do you have in place to

01:43:10 so what system do you have in place to make to to ensure that the certification for for example the acm pe 55 renault bond panels was certified for suitability in their proposed locations

01:43:22 proposed locations before commencement of testing or manufacturing i don't think we did before commencement manufacturer [Applause] ryden was also required

01:43:36 to provide project specific say sorry project specific fabrication handling and installation method statements

01:43:46 what did ryden do to comply with that obligation again all of that or majority of that information i would expect to form part of the o

01:43:52 of the o m and health information file which again i

01:43:55 again i accept that the top sentence asks for it in advance yeah and what about the recommendations for spare parts and recommendations for safe dismantling

01:44:08 what if anything did you do to ensure that the acm panels that you were discussing under the value engineering discussions we've been looking at in march and april 2014 was suitable for

01:44:19 was suitable for use above 18 meters on grenfell tower well firstly they were specified before our time by the by studio e

01:44:32 before our time by the by studio e secondly they were again i'll go back to we've got a specialist cladding contractor who i'd expect

01:44:39 expect to know what is correct or not um and then from our experience my experience with ryden we fitted exactly the same

01:44:51 with ryden we fitted exactly the same on numerous projects dating back to 2007 so

01:45:00 we're going to come to that shortly um you say numerous projects we know about ferry appointments right there yeah in chow cots there is more than one right right now in that last answer mr

01:45:12 right now in that last answer mr lawrence you you name check studio e in harley do i take it from that that you yourselves ryden itself did nothing to ensure that acm panels

01:45:24 did nothing to ensure that acm panels uh be 55 acm panels manufactured by raynaud were suitable above 18 meters correct we'd rely on others to rely on others to do it

01:45:35 others to do it i'd now like to turn them to the selection of the acm panels themselves

01:45:43 sticking with the nbs spec for the moment can we go please back three pages to page 66 we can see that what was specified here under item

01:45:55 under item one two three under 92 rain screen cladding

01:45:58 cladding was the proteus hr honeycomb rain screen panel manufactured by kme architectural solutions

01:46:05 solutions so that that's actually what was specified isn't it as the primary product as the primary products is that as their top choice yes

01:46:17 and underneath that we can also see zinc sheets were to be manufactured by ned zinc

01:46:26 ned zinc yes correct so the net the sheets themselves the zinc would come from ned zinc in the netherlands and they'd be mad they'd be fabricated by kme wouldn't they yes

01:46:37 kme wouldn't they yes yes now did you ever read any of the product literature concerning the proteus panel um i think the only time i looked at any product literature was when we were

01:46:49 product literature was when we were putting together the information about the longevity of the durability of the of the panel did you did you know that the

01:46:59 the core of the product is a aluminium honeycomb structurally bonded between two thin gauges of metal only from what it says there but i've not never used the product previously i see

01:47:11 never used the product previously i see you didn't investigate the project literature to see what this stuff is made of no not particularly no uh did you know that the fire classification for that

01:47:24 that the fire classification for that panel

01:47:24 panel was that it met the requirements according to class naught of the national building regulations no

01:47:33 i would assumed it but i'd didn't investigate it did you investigate the fire performance of the proteus hr panel at all uh no i didn't have a discussion with studio e about it no no

01:47:46 studio e about it no no did you didn't look at the brochures i think you told us

01:47:54 now the specifications as i've shown you set out here in the nbs

01:48:02 could you also look please at page 64. two pages earlier on that item 11 you can see information

01:48:13 you can see information to be provided with tender in addition to the cladding specified in the below clauses 120 123 submit comparative supply

01:48:23 uh and install costs per square meter of the whole planning system for the following alternative materials and you've got raynaud three products there and a leukobond spectra and zinc called zinc note face fastener solutions

01:48:35 called zinc note face fastener solutions permitted

01:48:37 permitted and if you go to page 65 look at item 120 please

01:48:44 rain screen cladding to columns an external envelope of main entrance canopy we just look we've just seen that um looking at the two together

01:48:55 um looking at the two together item 11 on page 64 and item 120 on page 65 mr lawrence isn't it the position that it was the zinc protease hr panels which were specified

01:49:06 specified but but comparative costings were required from contract tenderers for rayno bond panels leukobond panels and vm zinc panels

01:49:15 panels composite panels uh that's correct yeah and you can see if you go back page to item 11 on page 64 the alternative costings for rayna bond

01:49:26 the alternative costings for rayna bond were required to be duragloss 5000 in metallic standard and non-standard satin gloss that's one of them did you

01:49:38 satin gloss that's one of them did you address your mind to this reference in the nbs

01:49:41 the nbs specification to standard and non-standard

01:49:46 um i i'm not sure i would have picked up specifically at the time if you were to ask me now i would say

01:49:58 if you were to ask me now i would say that's

01:49:59 that's that is a talking about a paint finish right did you you said you said you didn't pick it up at the time you're not sure you would have done

01:50:10 time you're not sure you would have done did standard and non-standard mean anything to you in this context at the time

01:50:15 time only paint it would only be paint finished

01:50:18 finished now let's turn to the sub topic the difference between face fixed and cassette we touched on this earlier on in your evidence were you aware at the time of this project and you're coming into it in the

01:50:29 project and you're coming into it in the spring of 14 that the fire performance of acm polyethylene panels when fabricated into cassettes was significantly worse than the fire performance of the same panels in rivet

01:50:40 performance of the same panels in rivet form

01:50:40 form no no do you know whether anyone else at ryden was aware of that specific fact i don't know but i doubt it very much did you know that the tests carried out by iconic in

01:50:51 that the tests carried out by iconic in and after 2011 so three years prior had consistently shown that rayner bond pe panels in cassette form only achieved class e spec classification under the relevant

01:51:03 e spec classification under the relevant tests en

01:51:04 tests en 13501 whereas the same panels in rivet form

01:51:08 form achieve class c for classification

01:51:13 did anyone else at ryden to your knowledge know that again not identical right now

01:51:20 right now turning away from that back again to compliance at the start of your examination on thursday you and i looked together at the contract and we looked particularly at clause 2.5.1.1.1

01:51:34 particularly at clause 2.5.1.1.1 which said that and i'm summarizing it we can go look at it if you like ryden would not permit for use in refurbishment any product which did not conform with british or european standards

01:51:43 standards or where no such standards exist do not conform with the british board of agreement

01:51:49 agreement certificate do you remember that yes yes in the light of that contractual obligation that ryden undertook to the tmo

01:51:57 tmo can you tell me what systems or practices ryden employed at the time to make sure that the cladding products being considered for the grenfell tower project met the requirements of the building regulations

01:52:09 requirements of the building regulations uh yes we use our especially supply chain

01:52:12 chain the technical knowledge and understanding of the material manufacturers now i appreciate that that's probably a repeat question and a repeat answer based on that but i just wanted to bring

01:52:23 based on that but i just wanted to bring it into into into into the context of what we're now going to discuss that's ryd zeros please

01:52:34 this is an email from uh you to bruce stones of

01:52:38 stones of studio e on the 17th of april 2017. and in in the first line it says uh bruce as pearl discussion earlier

01:52:49 uh bruce as pearl discussion earlier harley's have been talking to rayno bond on our behalf regarding the acm panel samples the samples ordered and mostly received so far

01:52:56 far as follows and then you set out four um four samples and there's then a discussion about how close they are to zinc um you say on our behalf did you ask

01:53:08 um you say on our behalf did you ask harley to talk to rayna reynabond on your behalf yes i believe i would have done who would who did you ask within harley to talk to rainer bond um

01:53:20 within harley to talk to rainer bond um i can't be 100 sure but it would more than likely be mark harris right and do you remember when you did that i mean how long before this email do you think no

01:53:31 think no no no all right now reference here to the acm panels you see the acm panel samples suggests that rayner bond acm panels have been

01:53:43 that rayner bond acm panels have been the subject of discussion prior to the date of this email

01:53:48 it suggests to the to the reader like like me who wasn't there at the time my question is to your knowledge when did acm panels and specifically rain a bond acm panels

01:53:59 acm panels start being discussed in place of zinc uh i think probably as soon as they tend to come in and it had in the documents that we looked looked at previously right now this email also shows that harley

01:54:11 now this email also shows that harley have at this point been talking to the manufacturers of renault bond in other words alcoa data archonic directly in relation to sourcing materials for the construction

01:54:22 sourcing materials for the construction of this

01:54:22 of this refurbishment project d was anybody at ryden in the loop on those discussions uh not directly no would always do you know whether anyone at studio e was in

01:54:33 know whether anyone at studio e was in the loop on those discussions i don't know but i doubt it i would imagine that would be harley directly over there i see manufacturer okay now it was is it fair to say that at this time harley

01:54:44 at this time harley rather than ryden were leading the search for acm panels which would be used as part of the cladding on the tower as an alternative to the proteus zinc uh they would yes they would be leading it because they obviously had contact with the

01:54:57 they obviously had contact with the manufacturer and knew them right well what was ryden doing if anything to oversee that process of discussion we were in the in the

01:55:08 of discussion we were in the in the discussion and at the time we were looking for suitable alternatives visually suitable alternatives to the um

01:55:18 to the um you know the number one option of zinc so we were we were going between bruce and harley's and all three were talking to find a a suitable finish it was all about the

01:55:30 a suitable finish it was all about the at that time all about the architectural finish that could be achieved

01:55:42 did well let's look at the email if you look at the middle of the page um it

01:55:50 it it says if there are any other colors that you would like to see and feel is more appropriate then let me know and we will get harley to order them

01:55:59 alternatively we can get the rhino bond rep in to meet us

01:56:05 who if anybody told you that the reynabon rep would meet you i would imagine it would have been mark right did you actually get the impression that rayna bond would give you or studio e project specific advice or information

01:56:18 project specific advice or information yes i would yeah where did you get that impression from um from

01:56:24 um from um from mark and it's probably um insinuated in in emails so i think i think it's debra french was involved in some email trails

01:56:37 involved in some email trails so and would be typical by with a material manufacturer wanting to sell their product right by this point had you had any discussions yourself directly with

01:56:48 discussions yourself directly with deborah french no deborah i don't think i've ever ever actually met her right i see now at this point i think you were looking at riveted panels not cassettes weren't you

01:56:59 cassettes weren't you um possibly yeah i can't remember at that point yeah all right well yes yes probably yeah um i mean i think um we're probably looking at both but we

01:57:10 we're probably looking at both but we were

01:57:12 were obviously the preferred option was face fixed that's fair now uh

01:57:19 now uh the reference to mark harris who is the harley sales guy i think you referred to and the work that you did at ferrier point together which you referred to in the last paragraph

01:57:31 paragraph uh was with riveted panels not cassette wasn't it

01:57:35 wasn't it yes all my previous experience had been with

01:57:39 with face fix so riveted panels yes so you is it so can we take it from that that you'd never actually worked with acmp called cassettes

01:57:50 acmp called cassettes correct on our on a high rise overcloud correct

01:57:53 correct right um can i look with you please at

01:58:04 ryd403909 this is an email from bruce soans in response to yours on the 22nd of april 2014 and 14 copied to kaithabyanki

01:58:16 copied to kaithabyanki uh and uh he says hi simon uh for some reason both you and we have overlooked the metallics is this cost and then he goes on to set out a number of

01:58:27 out a number of models of acm cladding which were offered by alcoa but which had not yet been considered by ryden or studio e or harley are these are these all pe core uh i would assume so i don't right yeah

01:58:40 uh i would assume so i don't right yeah at the time i didn't know there was any other acn panel apart from pe core i've never experienced it and been told about it so i'll just this is talking about colors paint

01:58:51 this is talking about colors paint effects

01:58:52 effects on an acm panel i see and we can see uh in the list uh before the bottom smek silver e9107s that

01:58:59 that that is in fact the cladding ultimately chosen for the building wasn't it uh yes i think it would be absolute now the discussion here is all about finishes and costs and there's no discussion here about the properties or performance of these acm

01:59:10 properties or performance of these acm panels

01:59:11 panels other than their finish and cost did you have any discussion at all at this time of those matters outside this exchange no i think the assumption was they're all

01:59:21 all all equal right mr chairman i've probably got one more document to show two more documents to show the witness well i think before we get to a slightly different

01:59:32 before we get to a slightly different topic but can i do that thank you and then that would be a convenient point to break it would yes it would be right well we'll carry on right thank you um ryd40 is 3913

01:59:45 ryd40 is 3913 if i can put pages one and two next to each other we can see that um at the bottom of page one is you forwarding an email to mark harris

01:59:57 to mark harris at harley which you had got from mr sones

02:00:03 sones which we just looked at you send it on to him

02:00:06 to him and you say mark straight mike thoughts please particularly around cost yes and then he responds to you uh the same

02:00:17 he responds to you uh the same day a little bit later on only about 15 minutes actually later on you see that simon by far the easiest way for us to respond is for me to afford a copy of bruce's email to deb french at alcoa the reinaborn lady

02:00:29 french at alcoa the reinaborn lady for comment regarding cost i'll do that straight away

02:00:36 did you pass on to harley all decisions and oversight of the cladding material selection process do you think i believe so yeah so basically

02:00:46 basically this whole discussion was really outsourced to harley and when i say this whole discussion the discussion about cost and the appropriateness of acm for the tower yes i don't and and i don't when you say

02:00:58 yes i don't and and i don't when you say appropriateness again this trail of emails is talking about colour that's bitter you are right and to be fair when i say appropriateness i mean i mean within the subject matter of the

02:01:09 i mean within the subject matter of the discussions you were consciously happiest yes now at the top of the page the document um

02:01:14 um shows his response and i've summarized that to you and we can see that his suggestion was simply to forward the email to deborah french and get her comment in respect of cost

02:01:26 respect of cost so he in turn was in a sense acting really as a post box between you and reyna bond correct

02:01:35 now at this stage was mark harris expressing a preference for raynor bond acn panels because of the cost

02:01:44 uh i think that's

02:01:47 he infers that in his uh he's sort of said in the last paragraph indeed i was going to show you that i would prefer to try and stick with rene bond if poss nothing wrong with the liquid bond of course but i'm not sure we'll we can manage the

02:01:58 but i'm not sure we'll we can manage the cost so well if we go that route exclamation mark exclamation mark

02:02:04 you actually answered the question before i show you the paragraph but i'm grateful but can we summarize it this way as far as you were aware there was a a beneficial relationship between harley and rayna bond

02:02:15 bond correct yeah now if we next go to the next document ryd403932

02:02:22 we can see what happens next uh this is an email from mark harris to debbie french and then him sending you

02:02:33 you back her response to him on the 23rd of april

02:02:38 april uh we can see that she comes to him on the 23rd of april copied to my to mike alberson and jeff blades

02:02:49 blades hi mark as per your couple of emails i've attached copies of our rainer bond bba

02:02:54 bba specimen warranty we will supply the original warranty once we've produced and shipped material it will be drawn up project and site specific fyi i've also attached a copy of our

02:03:05 fyi i've also attached a copy of our caution cleaning documents in terms of the colour categories and pricing i can confirm that the following colours are not going to carry any up charge on prices already discussed and quoted

02:03:14 quoted and she sets out three and make some other comments about other colors hope information is okay but any other questions just let me know or ring me and then uh mark harris comes back to

02:03:25 and then uh mark harris comes back to you

02:03:25 you pings it on to you simon thought it would be easy to forward you the email at all attachments is received from debbie french at alcoa i can't see a reason for this not to be sent as it is to bruce but we'll

02:03:36 to be sent as it is to bruce but we'll leave that decision to your good self first of all did you know at this stage who jeff blades was he's the copy yeah yes and what was his role

02:03:46 role uh he works with it yeah he works for cep

02:03:51 cep yeah what his actual role is right now we can see the response and i've read it to you uh mark harris's suggestion was that it all be sent straight on to studio e

02:04:02 all be sent straight on to studio e unless you thought differently did you send it on to studio e do you think i would have thought so right why would is there any reason why you would not want studio e to see that

02:04:14 would not want studio e to see that information no did you read the documents that she sent you yourself um probably not but um i probably would have passed them

02:04:26 um i probably would have passed them straight on but i can't say for sure what about the copies of the rayna bond bba did you know what that was uh yes yes i knew what that was did you notice that it had been attached

02:04:38 did you notice that it had been attached to the email um i probably did at the time right but we'll come to that tomorrow just one question last question on this she says that the post-shipment that post-shipment the warranties would

02:04:50 that post-shipment the warranties would be drawn up project and site specific did you understand that miss french of raino bond of arconic

02:05:02 of raino bond of arconic knew that the reyno bond material that she was discussing with harley was going to go on to grenfell tower

02:05:13 on to grenfell tower um is that your understanding i'm not sure she knew but i would say she'd have a yeah very good

02:05:22 good it'd be very very likely that that was going to happen given the correspondence yes albert either right and to your understanding at the time would she have had to use your words

02:05:33 would she have had to use your words a very good uh a very good idea that that building is a building higher than 18 meters i would have thought so yeah definitely i would have thought harley's would have

02:05:46 i would have thought harley's would have i would thought the holies would have been speaking to um red a bond about that if not about material costs and quantities of material etc so so yes right

02:05:57 right mr chairman has now just gone five past four and i'm going to come next to similar we're staying on the same topic with a different set of questions about it there's now a convenient moment i think it is yes

02:06:08 convenient moment i think it is yes yes thank you you're getting along quite well getting on quite well mr chairman but i am i am concerned and uh we may need to raise the question with the witness about about overrun i'm concerned that we're not going to finish tomorrow particularly

02:06:19 going to finish tomorrow particularly since there are questions which are coming in at the moment from other corporations would be sensible just to canvas that nurse i think it would be consensual would you like to tell us how you're seizing yes mr chairman there are knock-on effects on the witnesses so i don't want to go

02:06:31 on the witnesses so i don't want to go into too much just worry about so far mr lawrence is concerned i if mr could come back on wednesday if that's not inconvenient to finish off his evidence um would that cause trouble

02:06:44 um would that cause trouble he would cause trouble but yes i would of course i will help but i'm very sorry about that because i know i'm sure you've made your arrangements on the assumption that you're finished tomorrow but yes it looks as though that's not really

02:06:56 yes it looks as though that's not really going to be very convenient so if you could uh i think we'd ask you to make arrangements to come back on wednesday i would think for only part of the day i think it would be part

02:07:08 part of the day i think it would be part of the day mr chairman i'm not going to commit to a precise time i'm afraid because things happen during the course of the evidence there's one day you never quite know but i i suspect that if you're discussing your

02:07:19 that if you're discussing your availability with other people you better say perhaps after lunch and that's not giving you a promise that it will be

02:07:26 will be before the end of the day but you understand i think that's a reasonable basis to work on okay well then we'll uh we'll call a halt there and uh finish for the day um please don't talk to anyone about

02:07:38 um please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it overnight and we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow please thank you all right thank you very much okay go to the astronaut please

02:07:57 thank you very much minute 10 o'clock

02:08:06 tomorrow

02:08:14 you