Simon Lawrence, Rydon's Contracts Manager for the Grenfell Tower refurbishment, gives evidence about his role, contractual obligations, design responsibilities, and compliance with building regulations.
00:30:45 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing
00:30:47 hearing today we're going to begin hearing evidence from witnesses from ryden all right mr minute mr chairman yes it is thank you and good morning good morning madam
00:30:58 and good morning good morning madam panel member i now call mr simon lawrence please
00:31:19 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare
00:31:22 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr lawrence sit down make yourself comfortable
00:31:35 yes mr miller mr chairman mr lawrence good morning can i start by thanking you very much for attending this public inquiry to give your evidence we are very grateful to you
00:31:46 evidence we are very grateful to you if you have any difficulty understanding any of the questions i'm going to ask you then please say and i will ask the question again or put it in a different way if you feel you need a break at any time
00:31:57 if you feel you need a break at any time please let us know we are going to take scheduled breaks one in the morning and one in the afternoon
00:32:03 afternoon today but if you need a break at any other point please do signal and we can take a short break the other thing i would ask you to do please is to try to keep your voice up so that the transcriber who's sitting
00:32:14 up so that the transcriber who's sitting to your right can hear you very clearly and get down your evidence it also helps i should just say not to nod or shake your head but say yes or no because that goes on the transcript
00:32:25 because that goes on the transcript okay all right now you've made one statement
00:32:28 statement dated the 25th of september 2018 can i please take you to it it's on your desk in front of you if you need the hard copy
00:32:37 hard copy but it also appears at
00:32:41 four ryd30942 two zero can we please have that on the screen
00:32:48 uh first of all can you please confirm to us that that is your statement to the inquiry it is thank you can i please ask you to go to page 17
00:32:59 you'll see a signature there is that your signature it is thank you and have you read this statement recently i have yes can you confirm that its contents are true
00:33:10 contents are true they are true yes now there is another pair of statements made by ryden the company
00:33:18 company first of all can i please ask you to be shown ryd309423 [Music]
00:33:28 this is a long witness statement signed under a statement of truth by mr nick young
00:33:34 young of dac beechcroft solicitors for ryden the company uh on the 23rd of november 2018. first can i ask you have you read this witness statement
00:33:46 witness statement i had you have did you contribute to it being compiled no you didn't there is also with it a uh an index
00:33:58 idx0160 there's no need to pull that up but i just want to read that into the record that is a an index of all the documents to which mr young refers in that statement
00:34:08 statement i wanted to read it in say that it's formally in the public domain and can i also show you please the second company statement
00:34:18 ryd3094310
00:34:25 this is dated the 15th of march 2019 also signed by mr nick young of dac beechcroft solicitors this is the second company statement have you seen this statement before
00:34:37 have you seen this statement before i believe so yes did you contribute to it's being compiled do you think you didn't it also has an index uh idx uh idx0249
00:34:49 uh idx uh idx0249 i no need to pull that up again i just read that out into the record so that it's there formally for people to see
00:34:56 to see now mr lawrence can i then ask you about some questions about your background please um you tell us in your statement uh and it's for the record paragraph
00:35:07 uh and it's for the record paragraph five
00:35:08 five uh that you studied welding and fabrication at college before you joined ryden
00:35:13 ryden in october 2004. is that correct uh yeah many years before that vs yes and you joined ryden in 2004 as an assistant site manager correct and i think you became a site manager at ryden in 2007.
00:35:25 manager at ryden in 2007. yes yes and you were promoted to project manager in 2011. sounds great yes uh and again you were promoted to contract manager in april 2014
00:35:37 contract manager in april 2014 correct and i think you left ryden's employment on the 23rd of october 2015. is that right correct yes now during all of that time uh you worked i think on refurbishment
00:35:51 uh you worked i think on refurbishment projects for occupied buildings is that right that's correct yep after you started at ryden in 2004 am i right that you obtained a chartered institute of building level 4 certificate in site management
00:36:04 level 4 certificate in site management yeah the significant diploma yes correct and a diploma in site management are they one of the same
00:36:10 two different stages of the same same thing yes
00:36:14 thing yes i see did um either stage of the same thing
00:36:18 thing contain any education on the building regulations uh it might have touched on the fact that they were there and what they were but
00:36:27 but but not in depth not in depth knowledge of no
00:36:30 of no it wasn't it was an overview or is an overview of construction the processes i see did any part of that education require you to read the building regulations i don't i don't recall i don't think so
00:36:41 i don't i don't recall i don't think so no
00:36:42 no uh what about fire safety of building materials
00:36:47 materials no what about contract management was there any
00:36:50 there any training in contract management as part of that course all those courses again it would have been a high level view it's a it's a course aimed at um of
00:37:01 um of construction management rather than technical details or anything like that so it would have touched on it but not in depth i see can i then ask you to
00:37:12 not in depth i see can i then ask you to to um help me with some questions i have on contract management on this project the grenfell tower project uh first please turn to page 8 of your statement and look with me at
00:37:24 of your statement and look with me at paragraph 40. you can see there in the middle of that paragraph that you say ryden's role
00:37:37 that you say ryden's role you see that was to appoint specialist third party designers to undertake the design works and work package subcontractors to undertake the building aspects of a project ryden's
00:37:50 building aspects of a project ryden's role was then to manage and coordinate the work of those third parties you see that yes and if you turn to the top of the next page please and look at paragraph 45
00:38:00 45 with me you see that you say there that your your role uh involved and looking at it at the fourth line down
00:38:09 line down managing contractual obligations you see that
00:38:13 that and dealing with client instructions liaising with the professional team designers architects structural engineers etc to coordinate and manage the process of design though not the design itself
00:38:25 design though not the design itself ensuring that the designs comply with the client requirements you see that yes now we're going to talk about
00:38:33 about design in more detail later in your evidence together but generally just for the moment mr lawrence is it fair to say that as contracts manager for ryden it was your responsibility to know what
00:38:45 it was your responsibility to know what obligations ryden owed to other parties under its contracts with those parties that would be fair yep yes was it also your responsibility to know
00:38:58 was it also your responsibility to know what
00:38:58 what responsibilities other parties owed to ryden
00:39:02 ryden under their contracts with ryden yes yes and to the to the best of your ability was it also your job to ensure that ryden
00:39:10 ryden and those other parties complied with their contractual obligations to to each other it was now i'd like to look at what that role on the grenfell tower project entailed in a bit more detail
00:39:21 in a bit more detail can i ask you please to turn to page three of your statement and look with me at paragraph 14. you say there paragraph 14
00:39:35 the the in the last sentence the contract manager role for ryden you see that is to oversee construction projects from inception to completion this may involve overseeing more than one project at a time
00:39:47 one project at a time now mr lawrence i'm going to put a list of eight things to you one by one and i'm going to ask you if you agree that your role as contracts manager would have included them or did include them
00:39:59 them or did include them would you agree first that your role included overseeing procurement
00:40:06 uh yes i was involved in it yes would you say
00:40:09 you say that your role included overseeing the health and safety of the construction work yes
00:40:17 did it include attending meetings and briefings to ensure effective communication between clients residents subcontractors and other parties involved in the project yes
00:40:28 project yes did it involve arranging coordination meetings between the parties involved in the project yes did it involve managing the project team
00:40:39 did it involve managing the project team it did and ensuring extra staff as part of that
00:40:42 of that as extra staff were used if necessary yes
00:40:46 yes did it involve monitoring contractors consultants and suppliers in order to ensure that the aims of the refurbishment project are met
00:40:54 are met you did yeah and by aims of the refurbishment project can i just ask you um were those the aims that were set out in the contract that ryden would have with its particular client yes did your role involve managing
00:41:08 yes did your role involve managing financial risks by recognizing and reporting the implications of any changes
00:41:14 changes occurring during the contract yes you would yeah and did you report to mr blake the refurbishment director or or any other refurbishment director occupying that role a dts yes thank you so
00:41:28 a dts yes thank you so your role was it was to manage not only ryden's in-house resources but also any external resources such as subcontractors consultants and suppliers in order to ensure that
00:41:39 and suppliers in order to ensure that ryden met its own contractual obligations correct yes obviously did that with a team so
00:41:46 team so yes yes
00:41:49 yes yes would you agree that in order to perform the role that you've been describing to us it was essential that you maintained effective communication with those to whom you were giving
00:42:01 with those to whom you were giving instructions within ryden yes would you also accept that in order to perform that role it was essential that you maintained effective
00:42:12 that you maintained effective communication with third parties under ryden's instruction for example subcontractors yes yes and the same question in respect of those
00:42:21 of those up the chain for example the tmo yes yes can i ask you to turn please to ryd309425
00:42:31 ryd309425 this is the tender pack committed by ryden
00:42:34 ryden for the grenfell tower project dated the 13th
00:42:37 13th of february 2014 and you say in your statement
00:42:42 statement and it's a paragraph 14 i don't need to show it to you that you were part of the team involved in putting the tender bid submission together did you read and did you read this document before it was sent out
00:42:55 document before it was sent out yes i would have done yes did you have any role in approving this document before it was sent out um ultimate approval no but yes as a team we would we would go through it and make sure it
00:43:07 we would go through it and make sure it was correct before we sent out yes if you turn please to page 34 within the document we'll find your cv there did you write that yourself uh it was probably done by one of the bid
00:43:19 it was probably done by one of the bid writers
00:43:20 writers right but it involved me obviously putting information in there yes isaac did did you have primary responsibility for its contents
00:43:32 uh well it would have been my i would have provided my information um to the bid writer for it to be collated and if anything was in there that was wrong you would have corrected
00:43:43 that was wrong you would have corrected it presumably if there was anything obvious in there yes definitely yeah now you're described there as uh if you look on the right hand side
00:43:53 hand side under position within the team as design stroke pre-construction manager you see that yes um and was that because this was produced before you were promoted
00:44:04 before you were promoted to contracts manager correct yes did anybody take over the role of design stroke pre-construction manager when you became contracts manager
00:44:15 manager uh i i don't think it was a defined role within ryden right uh pre-construction manager would be
00:44:25 be um design manager we didn't have a design manager particular role it was it was trying to indicate what what role i take or what yeah what role
00:44:37 what role i take or what yeah what role i've taken to date um in helping the tender i see was the role or job that you'd taken to date absorbed into your contract manager role in respect to the grenfell project
00:44:49 grenfell project yes looking at the right hand column of this page at the top it says simon has been the main point of contact with the client throughout the tender process he has used his knowledge to formulate
00:45:00 he has used his knowledge to formulate what we believe to be the most robust the most robust uh and deliverable solution for grenfell tower you see that yes is that a fair summary yes
00:45:11 yes is that a fair summary yes uh so the main contact with the client uh throughout the tender process would be it would have been you for any of the solid stuff yes yes i see and the client was the tmo as we as we know
00:45:21 know uh yes correct yes now what knowledge quotes on quotes did you use to formulate what uh you say we believe to be the most robust and deliverable solution for grenfell tower my input was one of a
00:45:36 for grenfell tower my input was one of a a construction and program and safety input within the bid so my experience having joined ryden is what i used to i see two going to the
00:45:49 is what i used to i see two going to the bid
00:45:49 bid did that include technical knowledge
00:45:53 uh it would include technical knowledge yes did it include knowledge of the products included in the tender i'd use them for so yes
00:46:04 could you just repeat that again i did there was an inaudible word you used could you sorry i i used i've worked on projects that use the same if you're talking cladding specifically cladding before yes i see so the knowledge
00:46:17 i see so the knowledge that you brought referred to in your cv here to this project would have included knowledge of the particular cladding products used on previous products on in which you were involved yes it would be
00:46:28 would be adding tower blocks occupied refurb very good now the word robust is used there um
00:46:35 there um what would that mean experienced okay what about safe
00:46:46 what would sorry what would safe mean yeah would when you use the word robust in your cv in relation to the deliverable solution for grantful grandfather would that include safe
00:46:57 include safe yes it goes on post awards simon will continue to work with the contract and project managers to ensure the scheme design planning and mobilization is as effective as possible
00:47:09 is as effective as possible uh now you are of course the contract manager post award but um apart from that is that a fair summary of your role after ryden was awarded the tender
00:47:20 after ryden was awarded the tender after they rewarded no so he did the initial
00:47:24 initial at the time of doing the tender i was working in pre-construction so i was working on bids yes and
00:47:32 yes and whilst i would have suspected that should we be successful that i would have more of an involved role on site or in the you know post um award
00:47:44 or in the you know post um award contract
00:47:45 contract um at that time we didn't necessarily know that but sorry it changed once we got awarded the sorry once we got awarded the contract
00:47:56 sorry once we got awarded the contract it changed it they needed somebody to um deliver that contract and i was chosen to deliver it i see um well we'll explore that a little bit later perhaps but can you just help me
00:48:07 later perhaps but can you just help me is there a difference between a project manager and a contracts manager at ryden yes what is the difference a project manager will generally be the
00:48:18 a project manager will generally be the site-based senior manager that looks after just that one project where a contract manager will oversee
00:48:25 oversee that project and others but isn't site-based i see who is the more senior
00:48:33 senior or i mean are they is one more senior to the other contracts manager contracts manager now it it it says here that post award simon will continue to work with
00:48:41 work with the contract and project managers does that indicate that you were neither of those on this project at the time of writing that yeah then yes i wasn't hadn't been chosen to be either the
00:48:53 hadn't been chosen to be either the project or the contract manager on on the job i see and then you subsequently were promoted to or became the contract manager yes for this job yes yes now it says in order to ensure that the scheme design
00:49:04 order to ensure that the scheme design is as effective as possible you see that um
00:49:08 um was does that indicate that your role
00:49:14 was to ensure that the design proceeded in line
00:49:17 in line with its budget it would be it would be budget um regulations um program it would be a combination of
00:49:29 program it would be a combination of things yes so budget regulations program by program you mean timing schedule yes yes i see and by regulations what do you mean
00:49:38 you mean that it complied with its its obligations under the contracts and i follow obligations under the contract but do you say regulations yes sorry
00:49:49 but do you say regulations yes sorry well
00:49:49 well within the contract there will be there will be um stipulations of the fact that it needs to comply with statutory regulations i see so so just to be clear the same sorry no no just to be clear
00:50:01 the same sorry no no just to be clear you you're saying through your cv that you saw your role as ensuring that the design proceeded in line with the regulations
00:50:12 proceeded in line with the regulations that you've just described to us yes statutory so ultimately as a contract manager the delivery of the project was that you were making sure that the whole project was being delivered
00:50:24 now we don't need to go back to paragraph 45 of your statement because i showed it to you a few minutes ago where you say that your role is to coordinate and manage the process of design though not the design itself ensuring
00:50:37 though not the design itself ensuring that the designs comply with client requirements can we take it that the scheme design being as effective as possible included ensuring compliance with
00:50:48 ensuring compliance with the client's requirements yes yes do you accept i think i think you do accept but help me that among those requirements were those set out in the contract yes yes
00:50:59 out in the contract yes yes so is it fair to say that within ryden post award on this project you were in charge of ensuring that the design complied with the contract i think you've confirmed yes before um i just want to ask you a question
00:51:10 um i just want to ask you a question about alan sharrick's who was the contract manager at the time wasn't he yes is it fair to say that you stepped into mr sharok's role when you became contracts manager in april 2014. yes he moved on to do
00:51:23 in april 2014. yes he moved on to do other projects and so can we take the description of his role as accurate for the one you ultimately performed from that date i would have thought so i've not read it but i would have thought so okay
00:51:34 but i would have thought so okay now can we look to the previous page please of this document page 33
00:51:40 uh this is mr sharok's cv and his position within the team at that time this is february 2013 don't forget
00:51:48 forget uh was um is described as contract manager there and he was said to be this is under rule within team it says allen will be responsible for
00:51:59 responsible for overall management of all aspects of the contract delivery from overseeing the final design phases allen will manage on-site delivery teams in terms of customer care resource
00:52:10 in terms of customer care resource management progress partnering quality cost performance monitoring and csr initiatives can we take it that that was a fair description of your role on the project
00:52:21 project once you stepped into his shoes in april 2014. yes i think it's fair description thank you
00:52:26 thank you a little bit lower down in the right hand column on that page within alan sharrick's cv it says benefits to the project and the second paragraph there it says that alan is able
00:52:38 that alan is able to positively contribute technical expertise and facilitate informed choice for clients and residents during value engineering and decision making processes this applies to projects
00:52:49 applies to projects at both tender pretender and pre-start stages
00:52:52 stages you see that yes so that applied to you did it when you became contract manager in april 2014 yes it would do you yes
00:53:01 you yes when it says that he and then you would positively contribute technical expertise what was that that's based around how to
00:53:12 what was that that's based around how to construct safely the project
00:53:19 rather than rather than the distinction of a designer that would have in-depth technical knowledge of products so we would technically know how things are put together
00:53:30 are put together and how to get access to put them together
00:53:33 together um and and how to do them safely that's our expertise i see did
00:53:41 i see did does this suggest that it was your job when you took over his job as contracts manager on this project to advise the client on
00:53:48 client on technical implications of decisions taken during the project yes if we would have done yesterday and it specifically identifies value engineering as an area where that advice would be necessary
00:54:00 would be necessary that's right is it so your job would be to advise the client on value engineering i think that's yeah i think that's fair yes now given that a significant element of value engineering is making
00:54:14 engineering is making the specification changes to reduce cost would you agree that this sentence suggests that your technical expertise would be available for use in value engineering
00:54:28 uh yeah i think that would probably be fair yeah and would that include detailed knowledge of the products to be used and any alternatives which might be suggested
00:54:37 uh what would we when you say detailed knowledge sorry can you explain what we mean by detailed knowledge uh knowledge of the uh nature and performance of the products
00:54:50 nature and performance of the products we wouldn't necessarily know the the we would have known the sort of the overview um so what the product
00:54:58 product did we'd know what a range green cladding for example did um as an overall system but we wouldn't know the in-depth detail
00:55:09 but we wouldn't know the in-depth detail of
00:55:10 of um or the technical the you know technical specifications behind it no right i see can i ask you to go to a an expert's report but it this is
00:55:21 to a an expert's report but it this is actually an easy way of getting to a public document p h y r uh six zeros three at page 15 please this is uh
00:55:34 please this is uh mr paul hyatt's experts report in this inquiry
00:55:38 inquiry and at page 15 we have paragraph 3.3.21 and he quotes from the definition of he quotes the definition
00:55:49 definition of he quotes the definition of value engineering from the riba stage guy 2015. were you familiar with the riba stage guide 2015 uh yes i would once it became public
00:56:02 uh yes i would once it became public now this defines value engineering as a systematic and organized approach to provide the necessary functions in a project at the lowest cost value engineering promotes the substitution of materials and methods
00:56:14 substitution of materials and methods with less expensive alternatives without sacrificing functionality we know this is 2015 but was was this how you understood the term value engineering when you first joined
00:56:26 engineering when you first joined the grenfell tower project in mar in march or april 2014 yes
00:56:32 2014 yes can i ask you to go to tmo one double zero four
00:56:36 zero four eight one two zero
00:56:42 this is a set of meeting minutes compiled by artelia for progress meeting number 13 on the 24th
00:56:50 24th of july 2015 and you're present at that now this is obviously some way into your involvement in the project and indeed some way into the project itself did you see
00:57:00 see you were there the fifth cast list member dan um can i ask you to go to page two please
00:57:08 please uh and let's look together at item 1.4 sl confirmed he was now full time on site as contracts manager for ryden does that tell us that you weren't
00:57:19 ryden does that tell us that you weren't full time on site in that role before that date
00:57:24 that date yeah correct right uh you know this date is is obviously july 2015. do you know when
00:57:32 know when either accurately or even roughly you you did start full time on site no i couldn't tell you but certainly by july 2015 you you think
00:57:44 july 2015 you you think looking at this now well at the minute say so yes i mean i i don't recall the minutes um but i would say that suggests that i'm spending more time at on the grenfell project than
00:57:55 project than any other yes well it says what it says that you are now full time on site i mean i think you've confirmed that as accurate how much time uh had you spent on site before that mr lawrence do you remember
00:58:07 before that mr lawrence do you remember it it would vary vary from very with other commitments it could be one day a week it could be three days a week it could be four days a week it would just vary on other commitments with other other
00:58:19 other commitments with other other projects yes how many other projects were you working on before this moment when you went full time there's another another project the other side of london
00:58:28 of london i see the other side of london yes can you tell us what that was uh herbert and jacobson
00:58:33 jacobson so all gay olgate was that a was that a residential building towards you was it a high rise no uh i now want to turn to
00:58:44 no uh i now want to turn to a different topic which is writing's contractual obligations now can i start with the amended jct design and build contract this is a tmo 100 41790
00:58:59 and we'll see from that that's not the right
00:59:04 right document uh
00:59:09 that's very strange well perhaps we'll come back to that um when we see it but but from recollection do you remember that ryden signed the contractual documentation formally
00:59:20 contractual documentation formally on the 30th of october 2014. uh yeah i won't remember the date but yes can we take it that uh as contract manager
00:59:28 manager uh you were uh for the project you were familiar with the terms of this contract
00:59:34 i would be i would have it as reference so yes i would be i couldn't repeat it all back to you but yes
00:59:41 yes did you ever study it in detail uh
00:59:49 i would have read through it initially but that would have been that would have been it okay um it's i'm afraid i gave you a wrong reference by by a single digit can i ask you to go to
01:00:04 tm010041791
01:00:11 now there it is you can see the date of the signature can we take it that you were familiar with the main or the important obligations of ryden they're under
01:00:22 obligations of ryden they're under yes i believe so yeah yeah can i ask you what steps you took to ensure that those employees of ryden who were working on the project under you if i could put it that way
01:00:33 you if i could put it that way or around you and your team were familiar with the obligations set out in this document uh we'd have a project firework it would have
01:00:43 have it would have the documents on and it would be shared with the with the whole team so it was there for reference if they needed it can i ask you to turn to page 265 in this document
01:00:57 can i just ask you this mr lawrence um this is a
01:01:01 this is a standard form document i think is that right it appears to be yes and is it one that you've worked with before do you have familiarity with its overall content uh overall
01:01:13 overall content uh overall yes thank you yes we'll come to look at some of the detailed terms very shortly just in general terms
01:01:29 you say that it was there for reference if they needed it did you take any steps to ensure for your own satisfaction that those members of your team had done so so that they knew what they
01:01:41 had done so so that they knew what they were supposed to be doing they they would the team would generally rely
01:01:47 rely on the yes the information contained within the contract so all the lists that we've got on the screen at the moment well i've got all the documents and tender documentation etc but as far as contractual wording
01:02:01 etc but as far as contractual wording um i don't think that would be a daily occurrence of a team to be reading it no i'm sure i'm sure not i'm sure it wouldn't be a daily occurrence that you would go through along a complex document such as this
01:02:13 along a complex document such as this but but my question was a slightly different one which was did you take any steps yourself to satisfy yourself that those members of your team had at least a familiar familiarity with the with the
01:02:25 familiarity with the with the obligations that ryden had to its client
01:02:32 i'm not sure we didn't if you're implying that we should be or we we could have sat down and gone through the contract then then no we didn't
01:02:42 all right now looking at page 265 this is a sheet entitled enhancements and improvements to grenfell tower schedule of contract information
01:02:53 information 29th of july 2014. so this was produced after the contract had been awarded but prior to its formal signature and
01:03:05 signature and it lists documents that were that ryden were provided with am i right about that correct yeah did you familiarize yourself with these documents
01:03:16 documents yes i've been through them yes were you aware of whether anyone else at ryden uh had satisfied had looked at these documents
01:03:25 documents well they would have they would have done to me i know what they were building yeah and ryden has assisted the inquiry by providing this document a conformed copy uh of which
01:03:37 document a conformed copy uh of which is in a different document can i ask you to look at that it's ryd30942
01:03:50 and you can see from the front page that it's
01:03:53 it's under the dnb 2011 design and build contract
01:03:57 contract to 2011 and i'm going to show you a selection of clauses in this document and ask you about them can i turn first please to page 63
01:04:08 please to page 63 now at the time of entering the contract if you look at contractors obligations general obligations you can see at the top
01:04:17 top were you familiar with clause 2.1.1 you could see the red which is which is amendments but in the unamended form were you familiar with clause 2.1.1
01:04:29 were you familiar with clause 2.1.1 um i couldn't i couldn't if you hadn't shown me i couldn't tell you what was in it no
01:04:34 it no we would know the general principle what the contract was therefore and was asking us to do yeah if we if we had any
01:04:46 yeah if we if we had any need to refer back to the contract then then of course we'd open it and read it but
01:04:51 but yeah it's not a general it's not a document for general consumption i'm not surprised daily should we say i'm not surprised about that but let me put the question a slightly different way you can see that this provision
01:05:02 provision sets out the obligation on the contractor to carry out and complete the works in a proper and workmanlike manner in accordance uh with as it goes on and in compliance with the
01:05:15 as it goes on and in compliance with the contract documents but it says in red in accordance with good building practice just as a matter of principle would you accept that uh that was an obligation on ryden yes
01:05:26 that was an obligation on ryden yes and there was an obligation you were familiar with was it at the time yes looking down the page a little bit further
01:05:33 further you can see that it says that 2.5 or 2.1 i think 0.5.1 the contractor warrants that it is not used and shall not use and has exercised and shall continue to exercise
01:05:45 continue to exercise the standard of skill and care required by clause 2.17.2 to ensure that it has not and shall not specify authorized cause or allow to be used in the works
01:05:56 used in the works any products or material which and then it's 2.1.5.1.1 do not conform with british or european standards where appropriate or codes of
01:06:07 standards where appropriate or codes of practice
01:06:09 practice or where no such standard exists do not conform with a british board of agreement certificate and then and then below that 2.1.5.2
01:06:22 and then and then below that 2.1.5.2 the contractor shall immediately notify the employer if it becomes aware of any proposal actual specification and or use in the works
01:06:31 works of any products and or materials which do not comply with clause 2.1.5.1
01:06:39 were you familiar when you came into the project as contracts manager with that provision either generally or specifically generally yes generally yes
01:06:52 can i ask you to turn the page please and look at clause 2.2.1
01:06:59 it says and i'll read it all materials goods and workmanship used in the execution of the works shall be of such kinds and of such quality as are necessary to enable the contractor to comply with his
01:07:11 the contractor to comply with his obligation under this contract and then 2.2.2 the contractor shall not make
01:07:17 make any substitution you see that for any materials
01:07:21 materials goods or workmanship specified or described
01:07:24 described in the employer's requirements or if not specified or described in the employer's requirements asset out in the contractor's proposals or in the specifications revised and returned to the contractor by the
01:07:35 returned to the contractor by the employer
01:07:35 employer in accordance with the contractors design submission procedure set out in schedule 1 without the prior consent not to be unreasonably withheld or delayed in writing of the employer
01:07:47 in writing of the employer were you familiar with that provision or at least the general principles in it at the time of coming into the continental principles of it yeah project thank you can i ask you to turn please next to page 68
01:07:59 next to page 68 and look with me please at clause 2.15 there in the middle of the page under the heading divergences from statutory requirements and that says uh if the contractor or
01:08:11 and that says uh if the contractor or employer becomes aware of any divergence between the statutory requirements and one the employer's requirements including any change or to the contractor's proposals he shall immediately give the other notice specifying the divergence
01:08:23 notice specifying the divergence and the contractor shall notify the employer of his proposed amendment for removing it with the employer's consent which will not be unreasonably delayed or withheld the contractor shall entirely at his own cost and no additional cost to the employer
01:08:34 employer save as provided in clause 2.15.2 complete the design and construction of the works in accordance with the amendment
01:08:40 amendment and the employer shall note the amendment on the contract documents again mr lawrence were you familiar with this provision either in general terms or or specifically when you came into
01:08:51 or or specifically when you came into the project in general terms yes general terms yes um what did you actually look at this provision
01:08:59 provision specifically do you think no i wouldn't have read through the jct contract or the not so i wouldn't have done okay i would have done earlier in the in the project to familiarize myself as we normally
01:09:11 to familiarize myself as we normally would but apart from that it's yeah it's not a general document you
01:09:16 you right a daily referral unless there was an issue
01:09:20 an issue or a cause to do so on the basis that you had a
01:09:23 you had a at least an understanding in principle if not the precise language of this clause what did you understand this obligation to entail the sorry the 2.1 2.15 2.15
01:09:35 the sorry the 2.1 2.15 2.15 yes that if anything changes throughout the project we need to notify the uh notify the client effectively thank you can i ask you to turn the page please and look with me at 2.17
01:09:52 this sets out a number of things but under 2.17.1 it says to the extent the contractual shell to the extent set out in clause
01:10:04 shell to the extent set out in clause 2.17.2.1 below be fully responsible in all respects for the design of the works including and if you look a little bit lower down under 2.17
01:10:17 under 2.17 any design contained in the employment employers requirements and for any discrepancy in all divergence between the employers requirements and or the contractors proposals and or any drawings details
01:10:28 proposals and or any drawings details documents or other information submitted by him in accordance with two point clause 2.8 and then under clause 2.17.1.2
01:10:39 and then under clause 2.17.1.2 but not limited to the coordination and integration of all design and the interface between design elements for the works
01:10:45 the works see that yes and then under 2.17.1.3 all aspects of design development selection of goods and materials and the satisfaction of
01:10:57 and materials and the satisfaction of performance specifications included or referred to in the employer's requirements the contractors proposals this contract or any change
01:11:09 at the time of entering into this contract or the time of your entry into the project were you familiar with these particular provisions clause 2.17.2 and of that clause 2.17.2.1
01:11:23 and of that clause 2.17.2.1 and clause 2.17.1.3 at least in general terms
01:11:27 terms yes yes
01:11:31 do you accept that or rather let me put it this way did you understand from the moment you came into the project that ryden had warranted that all design work
01:11:43 ryden had warranted that all design work carried out by ryden had been and would be completed using all the reasonable skill and care to be expected of a professionally qualified and competent
01:11:51 competent design and build contractor yes and one experienced in the carrying out of such work for projects of a similar size scope value character and complexity
01:12:04 scope value character and complexity to the works yes yes did you also understand that ryden had warranted that any design produced or to be produced by any design consultant or subcontractor
01:12:15 subcontractor with design responsibility had been performed to that same standard yes can i ask you to turn to page 70 please
01:12:28 which is where uh
01:12:32 2.17 ends with 2.17.2.3 just at the top of the page there let's look at it together uh subject
01:12:44 let's look at it together uh subject to clause 2.17.2.1 which i've just showed you just shown you the contractor shall design and construct the works in compliance with all consents including the discharge of any reserve matters in
01:12:56 the discharge of any reserve matters in planning consents relating to the works statutory agreements statutory requirements relevant codes of practice british standards or eu equivalents and manufacturers recommendations and the rec and the requirements of the
01:13:08 and the rec and the requirements of the insurers of the employer insofar as details have been provided to the contractor at the date of this contract
01:13:17 again were you familiar with that provision at least in principle if not in in detail in principle engineering yes do you agree with me that the reference to statutory requirements and relevant
01:13:28 to statutory requirements and relevant codes of practice would include the buildings
01:13:30 buildings the building regulations 2010. i would agree yes
01:13:34 agree yes yes was it your understanding that ryden had
01:13:38 had a direct design responsibility to ensure that the works complied with the relevant specification specifications codes of practice and the building regulations 2010.
01:13:51 building regulations 2010. we would by contract yes and that would that be so whether or not the design had been completed by ryden or any of its subcontractors or sub-consultants i agree yeah yeah and and and again whether that work
01:14:03 yeah and and and again whether that work was completed before or after ryden's appointment by the tmo yes yes and in order to ensure that the work did comply would you agree that ryden would have to
01:14:15 would you agree that ryden would have to analyze the specifications and the drawings provided by the architect to ensure that it was possible for ryden to comply we would we would do that with um
01:14:28 that with um specialist advice it wouldn't just be in-house and us doing it but yes yes it would have to analyze it yes
01:14:37 okay well we'll come back to in-house out of house shortly or later but thank you for that do you also agree that in order to develop the design your contract required you to analyze the
01:14:49 contract required you to analyze the specification and design intent the design intent in order to ensure
01:14:56 ensure that you are able to comply with the building regulations yes i agree with that yeah yeah did ryden to your knowledge take any steps as a company to ensure that its employees on this
01:15:07 to ensure that its employees on this project understood the regulatory requirements applicable to it which ryden
01:15:13 ryden had undertaken to its client uh that it would
01:15:16 would ensure compliance with sorry could you repeat that again yes did ryden take any steps as a company to ensure that its employees on this project understood
01:15:27 its employees on this project understood the regulatory requirements uh which applied to this project which ryden had promised that it would ensure compliance with that they would understand well we would all understand the again
01:15:38 well we would all understand the again in general terms so we would understand that there are building rigs and they need to be complied with but we wouldn't know to the you know every subsection and et cetera
01:15:50 you know every subsection and et cetera et cetera right so in general terms yes we would know you know we would all know right we need to comply were there any systems in place at ryden to ensure that the employer's
01:16:03 to ensure that the employer's requirements and the contractors proposals were scrutinized so that any divergence from the requirements and proposals
01:16:14 from the requirements and proposals from the statutory requirements could be
01:16:18 identified
01:16:24 i'm not sure there's any process i'm not sure there was any any particular sort of um written process that forms to be filled in
01:16:34 in et cetera et cetera with them right that is required but as part of the tender the pricing the the build process that they would all be scrutinized yes
01:16:46 that they would all be scrutinized yes who would they be scrutinized by by a combination of of um the managers as in writing managers
01:16:53 managers um and the subcontractors and designers i see were there any systems in place at ryden to ensure that ryden complied with its obligation to comply with the employers requirements
01:17:04 comply with the employers requirements and the contractors proposals
01:17:09 again if you talk about process i'm i don't recall what process they had in in place at the time yeah but we would carry out that
01:17:20 that by using our subcontractors managers and the whole team so okay well let me let's see if we can get further with that
01:17:28 that um under the next topic to which i'm going to turn mr lawrence which is the employer's requirements themselves and within that can i start by examining with you the preliminaries yes now as we've talked about already
01:17:41 yes now as we've talked about already ryden was under a duty to ensure as we've seen from paragraph 2.1.1 of the amended contract that the works were carried out in compliance with the contract documents and those included
01:17:54 contract documents and those included the employer's requirements let's look at those that's tmo10041791
01:18:06 at page 84 which is there on the screen at the time of entering into the contract with the tmo did you familiarize yourself with the employer's requirements i had been through them yes you've been
01:18:17 i had been through them yes you've been through them yeah can i ask you to look at page 87 first please
01:18:25 and look at part 2a
01:18:29 uh a10 project particulars you see that yes and under paragraph 110 which is the hood of the page there's a sub part of that towards the bottom
01:18:41 sub part of that towards the bottom which says design see that yes all design work completed to date riba stage e is included with this tender document
01:18:52 e is included with this tender document and the contractor shall become responsible for the design and its further development and completion the contractor should have full responsibility for the design of all the works
01:19:03 now do you accept that the employer's requirements imposed a design responsibility on ryden yes yes can i ask you to turn to page one two eight in the same document this is part two a
01:19:16 in the same document this is part two a page 44 at the bottom and we're going to look at section a32 management of the works
01:19:22 works you see that and uh under that generally there's a paragraph 110 you see that yes supervision general accept responsibility for coordination supervision and
01:19:33 coordination supervision and administration of the works including subcontracts coordination arrange and monitor a program with each subcontractor supplier local authority and statutory undertaker and obtain and supply information as necessary
01:19:44 information as necessary for coordination of the work do you accept that ryden accepted responsibility to do that yes thank you moving to the bottom of the same
01:19:55 the same page you can see 119b building control the contractor will be responsible for providing additional construction stage information to building control do you accept that it was ryden's
01:20:06 it was ryden's duty to provide additional construction stage information to building control yes
01:20:13 yes page 135 second from the bottom paragraph uh
01:20:22 a33 170 a manufacturer's recommendations straight recommend stroke instructions general comply with manufacturers printed recommendations and instructions
01:20:34 printed recommendations and instructions current on the date of the invitation to tender
01:20:36 tender changes recommendations or instructions submit details ancillary products and accessories use those supplied or recommended by main product manufacturer agreement certified products comply with
01:20:47 agreement certified products comply with limitations recommendations and requirements of relevant valid certificates again same question mr lawrence do you accept that that set out ryden's duty there
01:20:56 there including to comply with manufacturer's instructions yes can i ask you to look at page 141 a third of the way down that page please
01:21:07 a third of the way down that page please uh you can see there are a number of things on that page but quality control against paragraph 630 do you see that
01:21:17 and it says procedures there establish and maintain to ensure that the works including the work of the subcontractors complied with specified requirements records maintain full records etc and
01:21:29 records maintain full records etc and then content of records and there's a list set out there again mr lawrence do you accept that it was ryden's duty to ensure that the works
01:21:37 works including the work of the subcontractors complied with the specified requirements yes and that that would include the contractual requirements yes yeah and that included full record
01:21:48 yes yeah and that included full record keeping
01:21:49 keeping relating not only to ryden's work but but the right but the work of its subcontractors too yes yes can i then turn to the nbs specification uh now
01:22:01 specification uh now you'll find this at sea 50169 this is a document created by studio e
01:22:14 and this one is dated the third of january 2014 although in fact there were earlier drafts of this in november 2013.
01:22:26 drafts of this in november 2013. but looking at this document did you read
01:22:29 read this document when you came into the project in the spring of 2014 yes i would have read through it right i'm not sure line by line but yes you would go through to see what products are being used yes presumably
01:22:41 are being used yes presumably presumably can i take it that this was a pretty important document for you as contracts manager to to be familiar with uh be one of a number yes yes
01:22:52 uh be one of a number yes yes can i ask you to turn police first to page 64.
01:22:57 page 64. uh and let's look together that h92 rain screen cladding and at the top of the page
01:23:06 the page it says there to be read with preliminaries or stroke general conditions and then looking at the second bullet point it says the manufacturers noted within
01:23:17 it says the manufacturers noted within this specification are indicative and may be substituted with similar or equal
01:23:22 equal alternatives now as we can see from the top of the page this is all to do with the rain screen cladding
01:23:29 cladding but we have similar examples appearing elsewhere in this specification did you understand uh or did well first of all did you did you read and become familiar with
01:23:41 you read and become familiar with what this is saying here i understand it and it's a standard term within the mps spec so so yes i see this is a standard term within the uh have you come across it
01:23:52 within the uh have you come across it before
01:23:53 before had you come across it before yes and what did you understand by the words similar or equal alternatives similar or equal in what sense
01:24:05 similar or equal in what sense it what it do you would guess in every sense it would be it would be um performance visual it's given you the opportunity to
01:24:16 visual it's given you the opportunity to use
01:24:17 use one manufacturer over another that would
01:24:26 supply the same type of material that's that's generally what it's aimed at
01:24:33 uh in mr sones's witness statement and i can show you this if you want um just for the record it's paragraph 343.1 at
01:24:45 sea3014273 we don't need to turn it up but we can if you like he says that the specialists cladding subcontractor would hold responsibility for all aspects of their system
01:24:57 for all aspects of their system and the successful contractor had the discretion to suggest alternative products or materials did you consider when you came into the project that ryden had that discretion
01:25:10 yes we could have we could have changed and what about in respect of manufacturers did you have a discretion to change manufacturing we did yes
01:25:21 manufacturing we did yes but if we read the acceptance of the client we couldn't just go and change manufacturers but yes did ryden investigate changing
01:25:32 did ryden investigate changing manufacturers or products or materials i think we attend a stage we offered alternatives i as we were asked to do but i think
01:25:43 i as we were asked to do but i think there was a there was um another manufacturer of acm cladding we'll come to that of course but but just in general terms yes
01:25:52 yes yes and who within ryden would have suggested
01:25:55 suggested or was responsible ultimately for suggesting alternative materials and products uh or alternative manufacturers well contractually ryden in practice
01:26:07 well contractually ryden in practice in practice the knowledge would come via the especially subcontractors right i see thank you now can we look at page 68 please of this document
01:26:18 this document a few pages on and look at paragraph 220 together specification compliance standards the center for window and cladding technology cwct
01:26:31 window and cladding technology cwct standard for systemized building envelopes
01:26:33 envelopes you see that yes and underneath it it says reference information for the duration of the contract keep available at the design office workshop and on-site copies of
01:26:44 workshop and on-site copies of and there are two publications the first is the center for window and clouding technology cwct standard for systemized building envelopes and second is publications invoked by the cwct standard
01:26:56 the cwct standard for systemized building envelopes see that
01:26:59 that did you note this paragraph when you were putting together ryden's tender
01:27:07 tender not specifically no no did you note this paragraph
01:27:11 paragraph after you had won the tender not specifically no is there any particular reason why you you didn't pick that up i would suggest because the amount of documentation
01:27:22 documentation drawings and information contained with the
01:27:27 the with the whole build um yeah it didn't get picked up right is this a standard provision you'd seen before
01:27:35 before or is this uh it's not one that i would have been if you'd if you'd have asked me before showing it to me though i wouldn't have been out pick it up no but i would say as the nba spec is a standard
01:27:46 standard um standard document template then it probably is in when there's rain spring cladding and there's curtain warning etc so i guess
01:27:57 there's curtain warning etc so i guess it could well be but okay let me just see if i can get it a slightly different way when you came into the project in the spring of 2014 was this
01:28:08 2014 was this provision specification specifying compliance with the cwct uh guidance a standard insert into an nbs specification that
01:28:19 insert into an nbs specification that you've seen that you'd seen before yes you had seen it before yes i see i've seen the cwct reference before yes right and what was this what was your experience
01:28:30 experience of the documents produced by cwct did you
01:28:33 you have you used them before no no had you worked on any previous projects in which the cwct standard was a contractual requirement uh quite possibly in all the on all the
01:28:45 uh quite possibly in all the on all the previous ones you say quite possibly do you know without without no not without putting up the nba spec from the previous project no i couldn't tell you are you familiar
01:28:57 no i couldn't tell you are you familiar with the guidance the cwct standard for systemized building envelopes or were you at the time no no let's have a look at it um it may be brief then cwct
01:29:10 it may be brief then cwct five zeros 46 please
01:29:19 this is its first page and uh it it it it's
01:29:30 uh a paragraph or part six that contains fire performance that we're interested in but just looking at the front page there is that a document that you were familiar with do you think
01:29:41 that you were familiar with do you think at the time of the grenfell tower project
01:29:43 project no well then let's take this quite quickly
01:29:47 quickly uh do can we take it then that this was not a document that you kept available at the design office workshop and on site we wouldn't have had a copy on site no is there any reason why that is
01:30:00 is there any reason why that is it it obviously wasn't picked up in the in all the documents we had to to go through and comply it obviously wasn't noticed i see do you know can you explain why it wasn't
01:30:11 know can you explain why it wasn't noticed
01:30:12 noticed just the sheer amount of information i would suggest but okay on previous projects do you recall having this document on site or in the workshop or in the office no because i've not seen it before right
01:30:24 before right um but let's take this quickly then if you can look at page 11 of this document in paragraph 6.2 uh i just want to show you the fourth
01:30:35 uh i just want to show you the fourth and the fifth paragraph down uh the building envelope shall not be composed of materials which readily support combustion add significantly to the fire load and or give off toxic fumes
01:30:48 or give off toxic fumes in all cases products or elements of construction requiring a fire resistance or spread of flame performance should have the appropriate evidence of performance based on test
01:30:59 performance based on test information the final installation should follow the applicable test evidence in all respects
01:31:07 uh now that's obviously in a document you say you've never seen were you familiar at least in the spring of 2014
01:31:15 of 2014 and on and after that with the principles that are being expressed there the principles yes yes so can we take it that you knew uh whatever the mbs spec said or whatever
01:31:27 whatever the mbs spec said or whatever the guidance might have said that a a building
01:31:30 building envelope shouldn't be composed of materials which readily support combustion add significantly to the fire load and or give off toxic fumes i think the principle yeah the technical
01:31:41 i think the principle yeah the technical part of it no not necessarily say the principle but not the technical part of it well you wouldn't assume to um you wouldn't assume to be building a
01:31:53 dare i say a building that's unsafe that's not what you'd be sitting out to do
01:31:58 do and were you familiar with the principle in the next paragraph that products or elements of construction requiring a fire resistance or spread of flame performance should have the appropriate evidence i would expect there to be testification
01:32:13 you can see the expression there materials which readily support combustion did you have an understanding as to what materials
01:32:24 in relation to the building envelope would readily support combustion as opposed to those which would not uh no not any more than no
01:32:35 no not any more than no what processes if any so let me ask it a different way did ryden have any processes in place to ensure that materials which readily supported
01:32:43 supported combustion were not used on any of its building facades well i think it would be using a um a competent design team confident specialist contractors
01:32:56 specialist contractors backed up by
01:32:59 building control and all the layers within so reliance on others reliance on others yeah i see and and i would imagine that the uh specialist cladding contractors are also
01:33:12 specialist cladding contractors are also cwc team members so i would expect them to
01:33:16 to understand this document what system did ryden have in place to ensure that the suitability of materials to be used on the facade were judged in relation to their conditions of use
01:33:28 we'd be reliance on others we've relaxed the design team i see
01:33:34 let's um look at page 14 at the top there
01:33:42 page 14 paragraph 6.4.3.2 materials adjacent to firestops the effectiveness of fire stops will be increased where the surface of the building envelope against which they are but is composed
01:33:54 against which they are but is composed of fire resistant material this can be achieved by using spandrel panels with a non-combustible insulation alternatively where combustible insulation is used it may be contained within a steel
01:34:05 within a steel liner you see that okay um did ryden have any plans to follow the principles set out in the guidance in this paragraph in relation to this project
01:34:17 project uh it would have done by appointing especially subcontractor i see and understand this technical detail uh i i suspect that if i continue to take you through this document you may give me the same answer but
01:34:28 you may give me the same answer but unfortunately i'm not i've not seen it before not right so can we shorten this and
01:34:32 and and in this way
01:34:36 were you at the time relying on others special subcontractors and design teams to ensure
01:34:45 to ensure that the design and the construction complied with these specifications yes i see
01:35:03 um can i ask you next to look at a document which tells us something about structure which is art 5-0 is 9.14
01:35:26 this is a document specification produced by curtin's consulting date of the 1st of march 2013. you see that and it's lo21212 spec
01:35:38 you see that and it's lo21212 spec 001 structural performance specification for the design supply and application of overclouding systems to grenfell tower and just so that you know this it appears at item
01:35:50 appears at item 170 and the schedule of contract information we looked at earlier on within the design and build contract i can get back to that if you want to look at it
01:35:59 were you familiar with this document when you came into the project uh i would have been by the fact of we had all the documents and we would have we would have read through them but i
01:36:10 we would have read through them but i don't recall this particular one all right well we'll look at it a little bit of detail in a minute would you agree with me that this is an important document because it sets out the specification for the design of the cladding system
01:36:21 for the design of the cladding system yes
01:36:22 yes can i ask you to look at page nine please first of all
01:36:30 this is section six design and there's a list of uh things under that uh underneath a general heading in designing his overcladding systems the constructor
01:36:41 constructor must take full account of the geographical location of these buildings and the climate thereabouts in particular he needs to consider the effects of there's a list of things here and then three up from the bottom of the
01:36:52 and then three up from the bottom of the list the need for effective fire barriers you see that did ryden have any processes in place to ensure that the need for effective fire barriers as set out in that specification
01:37:03 specification was properly considered on the grenfell project
01:37:07 project by appointing the the specialists that knew what fire barriers and where they needed to go were and and who were those in relation to fire barriers
01:37:19 to fire barriers who were who were the specialists the the specialist subcontractor was hardly kurt moore yes um and then we also had obviously the design team being
01:37:30 design team being um studio e curtins if you look at page 11 please at the top of this document section 7 overcladding
01:37:43 paragraph 7.1.13 the system should comply fully with the recommendations of the bre document fire performance of external thermal insulation for walls of multi-storey buildings
01:37:54 multi-storey buildings second edition 2003
01:37:58 and then under 14 7.1.14 the system shall not be a fire risk at any stage of the installation nor shall it constitute a fire hazard after completion if for any reason the insulin becomes
01:38:10 if for any reason the insulin becomes exposed
01:38:13 were there any processes in place at ryden for ensuring that the system wasn't a fire risk after completion
01:38:21 yes because we've employed specialist designers
01:38:25 designers that should have been designing and installing to the rigs it was then checked by um not only an independent clerk of words but it was also checked by
01:38:37 words but it was also checked by the building trouser so not wishing to un to summarize your evidence unfair but reliance on others yes i see so nobody within what we would
01:38:48 yes i see so nobody within what we would take out we would sorry let me tell you adding into that we would do our own quality checks the site management would do their own quality checks and sign off that the building was built
01:38:59 and sign off that the building was built in accordance with what the drawings and the
01:39:01 the specifications were saying that the the subcontractors that actually did the installing installed it correctly to the drawings let me just see if i can pursue this a moment uh specifically perhaps in relation to
01:39:14 uh specifically perhaps in relation to the bre document uh that's referred to in paragraph 7.1.13.
01:39:19 7.1.13. were you familiar with that document have you ever read it no right is it a document that you'd come across
01:39:26 across before or had seen referred to before um and not one i recognize no right um if you read this document as part of your um familiarization with the project when you came into it
01:39:37 the project when you came into it would you not have noticed that it contained this document this guidance i think if i go back to what i said previously there are
01:39:47 are you know there are hundreds of documents within a within a contract and and yes we would read them right but to pull out another sub document and read fully and
01:39:59 another sub document and read fully and understand fully all that sub document i think would be unusual let's just take a sidestep here mr lawrence i mean we'll come to it later on in due course but
01:40:10 later on in due course but i think i'm right in saying that uh ryden had done over clouds of residential high-rise buildings prior to grenfell yes and we we've seen two two examples
01:40:21 yes and we we've seen two two examples of that in your state yeah more than one yeah yeah when those were designed and built did you personally not have any knowledge of or experience over
01:40:32 knowledge of or experience over even a read through bre 135 did anybody been brought to my attention i've never never seen it before right okay all right uh
01:40:44 right okay all right uh i would i wouldn't i'd like to add to that i wouldn't say that's a standard manual and a standard document that
01:40:52 that in my experience other contractors would have knowledge of either i think it's i think it's a specialist item all right
01:41:06 so if i was to ask you any questions about it i'd be wasting my time well i've yeah i've not read the documents so i don't know i see i think to put it in context we've obviously got
01:41:18 hundreds if not thousands of components within a building to read all the documentation out there from bre and others for each component i don't think that's
01:41:30 for each component i don't think that's yeah
01:41:31 yeah now i just want to get back to an on so i'm so sorry did you want to finish your answer no
01:41:35 answer no that was it okay i just want to go back to an answer you gave me a minute ago which i now can't pick up on the on the transcript while i'm here but you said that uh that you had on-site
01:41:46 you said that uh that you had on-site managers who would check the quality control on site yes did to your knowledge did any uh site manager from ryden who was checking the work that was being done on site
01:42:00 work that was being done on site examine the work and compare it with uh the requirements of the curtains consulting document part seven overclouding uh not to my knowledge but
01:42:11 knowledge but yeah i would think it it would be unlikely
01:42:15 unlikely was it did you see it as part of your role as contracts manager to make sure that those site managers on-site who were checking were checking the work that was was done in accordance with the
01:42:26 was done in accordance with the contractual obligations ryden had undertaken that david used that they would predominantly use the the drawings and the specification that's that's what they would be using on site does that mean
01:42:38 on site does that mean do i take it from that answer that they wouldn't be using the curtains consulting specification for the structure
01:42:44 structure it would be it would be there on file for people to to read but it's not a i have to say if on the guys on site to pick up a
01:42:54 pick up a structural specification specification when it comes to the design of cladding for example unless we're talking about it being the ability to be able to
01:43:07 be attached to the wall that wouldn't be the first document that you would turn to that must have been right was was there did you regard it as part of your of your of your role as contracts
01:43:19 of your of your role as contracts manager to make sure that whatever else the site managers checked against the specification they checked compliance with anything to do with safety specifically fire safety
01:43:32 safety specifically fire safety no they'd be they'd be checking in compliance with drawings and specifications right the so the fire safety element of it would be by the designers in installers
01:43:46 would be by the designers in installers in this case specialist if we're talking about cloning specifically right but to start pulling out all the technical documentation around the each product and understanding that and checking it
01:43:58 and understanding that and checking it now i wouldn't i see you expected to do that mr chairman i've got a short topic which i could probably cover in a few in a few minutes but yes well that's right all right i'll do that um
01:44:10 that's right all right i'll do that um i just want to ask you uh about the cdm regulations at the time of the grenfell project were you familiar with the duties of a principal contractor under the cdm regulations 2007.
01:44:22 regulations 2007. yes you were what did you understand those duties to be in in general terms i'm not asking you to recite the whole set of regulations but in general terms
01:44:33 set of regulations but in general terms that we would we would plan manage and monitor the works
01:44:37 works i think is probably the cdm terms what did you understand your particular duties and again in general terms to be under those regulations during the project
01:44:48 project sorry my personal right all right what did you personally understand ryden's general obligations to be under the 2007 regulations to ensure that the
01:44:59 that the the the construction phase is carried out safely coordinated um yeah
01:45:12 did you take any steps at any stage to ensure that your clients were aware of their
01:45:19 their cdm uh duties on the project or under the project any specific steps yes i i don't recall
01:45:31 yes i i don't recall that i did but they they had a a specialist employers agent um advising them of their
01:45:40 their their roles did you take any steps to satisfy
01:45:44 satisfy yourselves that studio e as a designer on the project was competent and adequately resourced to carry out
01:45:52 carry out the work for ryden on the project uh i mean we
01:45:57 mean we are they were novated so you would you would expect although you would expect them to be competent to be able to get to the stage where they've got to
01:46:08 stage where they've got to whilst we hadn't worked with them previously we knew they were carrying out a
01:46:13 out a 40-50 million pound build um with cladding adjacent to grenfell so we knew that there was experience there but i don't
01:46:24 experience there but i don't i don't recall the process and ryden's process for um checking competence there is a process but it would be carried out by a
01:46:35 but it would be carried out by a different department so did you check or did anybody else ride and check where the studio he had ever been involved in a high-rise overcloud project before i don't remember thank you
01:46:50 you don't remember okay did you or anybody else that ride and check what resources studio he was able to devote to this project
01:47:01 um
01:47:07 when you say check we you know we knew we'd
01:47:10 we'd i'd been to visit them we'd um you know we've done i'm not sure we asked them if they've got 10 people and they've got 10 people free and they're not working on any other
01:47:21 and they're not working on any other projects no we wouldn't have been as specific as that but we would have also expected that if they can't continue with the product because they haven't got the resources for them to be
01:47:32 haven't got the resources for them to be be telling us that i think it's i think by the fact you're contracting with someone you're you're taking it as read that they've got the
01:47:40 got the resources to be able to carry out the works
01:47:45 what due diligence or investigations into
01:47:48 into studio e's experience in a high-rise residential overcloud did ryden undertake
01:47:55 undertake i i don't remember i don't remember the what process it took was there any uh there was there was definitely a there was definitely a safety process yes
01:48:07 was definitely a safety process yes um how far that i can't remember how far that extends um to previous experience what would have what was it wouldn't be i don't think it would be
01:48:19 i don't think it would be unusual that you've got a you know we knew they were a reasonably large firm at the time before they they changed um we knew they were working for
01:48:31 working for tier one tier two principal contractors um next door to grenfell we are you know we knew that they were doing cladding on that process so
01:48:42 cladding on that process so so from uh observing what they'd what they were doing at the time it didn't raise any concerns right you say that there was definitely
01:48:53 right you say that there was definitely a safety process does that from that answer do i take it that you mean there was a in place at ryden at the time a process for doing due diligence on architects who were being innovated into a new design
01:49:04 a new design i think on anybody that was a anybody that was appointed whether it be subcontractor endor
01:49:10 right anybody we were contracting with we would have a preferred so i'm going to say suppliers preferred suppliers list yes yes but studio were not on that were they
01:49:21 they not originally but they would have the as we were contracted with them they would have to go through that process i see it'll be done by a different
01:49:29 different department and what was the process this is what i'm trying to get at uh i don't know i can't recall the ins and outs of the process i don't know
01:49:41 have you ever heard of the acronym eric eliminate reduce isolate control uh i've not heard of his neck for him like that no no have you ever heard of the acronym alarp as low as reasonably practicable
01:49:55 alarp as low as reasonably practicable the terms but not the acronym right what did you understand a larp or as low as reasonably practical to mean in its context
01:50:05 context well i'm assuming you're referring to risk yes
01:50:08 risk yes so where we can eliminate it you would eliminate it and where you can't eliminate it you would you would mitigate at the time of the grenfell project what did you understand about the health and safety file obligations under the cm
01:50:20 obligations under the cm cdm regulations that we needed to provide them at the end of the project or at the end during throughout the project we'd be supplying the client um with the full
01:50:33 supplying the client um with the full set of information relating to the the build and what what's been carried out yeah let's see um just go back to the due diligence process a moment who do you remember was in charge of doing
01:50:44 do you remember was in charge of doing the due diligence into studio e to go through the normal processes that you had at the time um i don't recall names i do it would be it would be one of the
01:50:55 it would be one of the it would be the health and safety department i would imagine right i couldn't i couldn't tell your names all right mr chairman that's an appropriate moment i'm going to get about to move to a different topic
01:51:06 different topic yes right thank you mr lawrence we're going to have a break now um and uh i must ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with this with
01:51:17 with construction so while you're out of the room okay
01:51:20 room okay all right i'll probably tell you that every time you leave the room but if i don't just remember that that's the case so if you'd like to go with the usher we'll resume at 2212 please thank you
01:51:42 right 20 to 12 please
02:10:56 yes would you ask mr lawrence to come back please
02:11:12 all right ready to carry on mr laurence mrs lawrence thank you um just a couple of questions to follow up on
02:11:18 up on what we were discussing earlier about subcontractors uh first did you understand that ryden had an obligation to its client in respect of this project
02:11:29 respect of this project to supervise and monitor the subcontractors performance yes what systems or knowledge did ryden have
02:11:38 have at the time to supervise its subcontractors performance
02:11:46 what knowledge knowledge would come from experience um we would have our our weekly monthly meetings we'd have programs we'd have
02:11:58 meetings we'd have programs we'd have finance we'd have quality so that's how would we we would monitor them what what knowledge and experience did ryden have in order to be able to supervise whether
02:12:09 in order to be able to supervise whether it's subcontractors when doing their design or their product selection were complying with statutory or industry guidance
02:12:18 what sorry what knowledge yes what knowledge or experience you referred to knowledge or experience a moment ago we experienced a very experienced
02:12:31 we experienced a very experienced contractor and they were experienced in the same type of buildings and doing the same type of thing that we've that was done at grenfell so that be the experience
02:12:42 so that be the experience and then obviously industry training as far as knowledge goes so sorry i'm not quite getting what your let me try a different way how would you
02:12:55 let me try a different way how would you as contracts manager be able to check to make sure that your subcontractors when doing what they were doing were complying with industry guidance or statutory guidance
02:13:07 we'll allow you to employ the correct ones or what you believe to be the correct ones and then we would have the layer of building control to ensure
02:13:18 to ensure [Music]
02:13:19 [Music] that the design and installation was in accordance with the regulations
02:13:28 what knowledge or experience within ryden
02:13:32 ryden would ryden use to make sure that its subcontractors complied with statutory or industry guidance
02:13:41 guidance so that ryden was satisfied that it was complying with its obligations to its client
02:13:53 yeah i'm sorry i'm not totally not totally understanding that right well let me put it more simply what knowledge or experience within ryden would ride and draw upon in order to supervise
02:14:06 draw upon in order to supervise its subcontractors work in order to make sure it complied with guidance uh well it's the staff it is it's management who within ryden
02:14:18 it is it's management who within ryden would supervise for example harley's work to make sure it complied with the proof document b by way of example uh we we would ensure so
02:14:30 uh we we would ensure so myself and the site team would ensure that the information was given to the other third parties that could check that compliance that's how we would manage it
02:14:47 so other people check compliance not ryden
02:14:51 ryden is that what you're telling us we employ third parties that we guessed were able to do that and how would you supervise those third parties in their checking
02:15:01 checking that your subcontractors had complied with their obligations
02:15:12 i'm not i'm sorry i'm not quite i'm not sure can you say so again sorry well you see
02:15:17 see you've even you accepted that you understood that ryden oded client your client a duty to supervise subcontractors i'm really just trying to explore how you did that did you do that yourself or did you in
02:15:30 did you do that yourself or did you in turn rely on other people to do that checking for you rely on other people i see so does that mean that when ryden was discharging its or purporting to discharge its obligations of supervision
02:15:41 supervision which it did to its client it actually wasn't supervising itself it was employing other people to perform its supervision for it i think it would depend on what part of the works we we're talking about but
02:15:52 the works we we're talking about but overall by by employing um third-party specialists um we would supervise them by making sure that they
02:16:05 sure that they carried their work out
02:16:08 in program and and quality etc but we wouldn't be able to check to the the technical data that's what you're saying right um
02:16:19 saying right um but you would you would have regular meetings to be be asking questions whether
02:16:24 whether you know design was progressing whether you know whatever
02:16:30 part of the build was progressing
02:16:34 let's turn to the regulatory requirements and industry guidance itself
02:16:39 itself i think we agree correct me if i'm wrong mr lawrence that ryden's contractual obligations included insurance ensuring that the building regulations were complied with
02:16:51 complied with great yes uh at the time that ryden won the contract of the for the grenfell project in in march 2014 were you familiar with
02:17:02 in march 2014 were you familiar with schedule one to the building regulations uh no you weren't so do i take it that you therefore weren't familiar with the functional requirements within the building regulations
02:17:13 building regulations what do you mean as in what building regulations are yes what the functional requirements within the regulations are just to set a minimum standard were you were you familiar and i think
02:17:25 were you were you familiar and i think probably the answer to this is no given your your first answer but let me just try it anyway were you familiar with part b fire safety uh i knew that there was
02:17:35 there was a part b so i knew that the building rigs are broken down into into different sections but again it would be a a general overview i couldn't tell you
02:17:47 a general overview i couldn't tell you what each section meant or right or yeah well let's see how far your familiarity went can we just do that were you aware that
02:17:54 that part b was broken down into five parts b1
02:17:57 b1 to b5 uh yes i know it's in polish yes did you know that did were you familiar with part b4 or did you know that there was a part
02:18:08 or did you know that there was a part before that was a part b4 yes did you know what it dealt with i think it's the external you say you think did you think that at the time did you know that at the time uh yes i would have done i see
02:18:20 can we look at b41 that's at clg 50224 at page 93
02:18:36 please uh this is part of approved document b and this is uh functional requirement b41
02:18:46 b41 external fire spread the external walls of the building should adequately resist the spread of fire over the walls and from one building to another having regard to the height use and position of the building were you familiar with that as a functional requirement in general terms
02:18:59 functional requirement in general terms yes in general terms and then the roof of the building should adequately resist the spread of fire over the roof etc again were you familiar with that in general terms in general terms yes i see
02:19:12 in general terms yes i see was there anybody within ryden who was more familiar with it on this project than in general terms i wouldn't have thought so within um the
02:19:24 i wouldn't have thought so within um the directly employed management no right so you so to put it perhaps correctly you didn't have an approved document b bod in ryden on this project
02:19:33 project correct right
02:19:44 do you or did you understand specifically in relation to fire that these functional requirements were clear
02:19:55 these functional requirements were clear in the fire should be prevented from breakout from the compartment in which it started the general principle of compartmentation yes yeah and that if it did break out from a compartment that the spread of fire should be inhibited
02:20:08 the spread of fire should be inhibited general principle yes is the general principle yes did you also understand that
02:20:12 that there's a general purpose of those requirements uh that the fire should be contained for such a period as to be uh is to enable the emergency services to
02:20:24 is to enable the emergency services to be able to deal with it yes and to enable safe evacuation yes and also to save lives in the end yes yeah now looking at approved document b if i can
02:20:35 can were you familiar with that at the time ryden won the contract in march 2014. not not particularly the content no not particularly the cause and as in as
02:20:47 not particularly the cause and as in as i've just said in general principle building regulations that they are there but you couldn't ask me a sub clause of a subsection i could tell you what it is no no did you know in general terms what
02:20:59 no did you know in general terms what the gen what the purpose of approved document be was only that it dealt with fire it dealt with fire did you know that it provided practical guidance with respect to the mandatory requirements of the
02:21:10 to the mandatory requirements of the building regulations yes you did before march 2014 have you ever
02:21:15 ever occasioned to read the guidance set out in approved document b which addresses fire safety uh i don't recall but again it's a as a site management it's a
02:21:29 again it's a as a site management it's a um i'll regard them as reference documents
02:21:34 documents for us as in as and when if we needed to investigate further
02:21:42 right okay we wouldn't as a as a site team as a site management um we wouldn't be able to interpret these documents
02:21:54 these documents without help from others
02:21:57 generally we'd be looking at documents with things like i don't know height of handrails and you know the and going of steps and
02:22:08 you know the and going of steps and and and basic elements um but we'd only be
02:22:13 be only be referring to those if if there was a
02:22:17 was a um a particular issue cause or something particularly rise to it can i ask you to look at page 95
02:22:29 and on page 95 go when it comes up to the bottom right hand corner under the title external wall construction paragraph 12.5
02:22:43 the external envelope of a building should not provide a medium for fire spread if it is likely to be a risk to health or safety the use of combustible materials in the cladding system and extensive cavities may present such a risk in
02:22:54 may present such a risk in tall buildings then it goes on external walls should either meet the guidance given in paragraph 12.6 to 12.9 or meet the fire or meet the performance criteria given in the bre report
02:23:06 criteria given in the bre report fire performance of external thermal insulation for walls of multi-story buildings br 135 for cladding systems using full-scale test data
02:23:14 test data from bs8414
02:23:20 in general terms were you aware of the guidance set out in that paragraph i've just read to you i think the general principle that
02:23:31 i think the general principle that whatever
02:23:31 whatever gets built shouldn't be unsafe i think he's probably that's a broad term but right but yes but
02:23:39 but i wouldn't have i can't tell you what's in those documents no let's just see how your awareness extends were you aware of your of the risk to health and safety presented uh by the use of combustible
02:23:52 presented uh by the use of combustible materials
02:23:53 materials in a clouding system and cavities uh yeah i would say general principle yeah now we can see from the second paragraph
02:24:01 paragraph uh under paragraph or section 12.5 that there are two alternative routes to compliance within there
02:24:09 there first the guidance in 12.6 to 12.9 and second the adherence to the performance criteria contained in br135 using full-scale test data from bs8414
02:24:23 using full-scale test data from bs8414 did you understand at the time of your coming into the project that those two alternative routes to compliance with this guidance existed at the time no right we don't we'd only ever
02:24:36 no right we don't we'd only ever had only ever experienced the what is now being termed as a linear route i see when did you first become aware that there were these alternative routes
02:24:47 that there were these alternative routes to compliance doing you know since the disaster in in looking into now we've already uh well was there any discussion at the
02:24:58 uh well was there any discussion at the time of coming into the project or thereafter of any of the materials in the cladding uh and about which route you were going to take
02:25:08 to take sorry i'll put that again when you came into the project in respect of the materials that were going to be used for the cladding was there any discussion about which route to compliance you would take
02:25:19 to compliance you would take no no can we look over the page please at paragraph 12.7 page 96
02:25:28 this is under the heading insulation materials and products in a building with a story 18 meters or more above ground level any insulation product filler material not including gaskets sealants and
02:25:39 not including gaskets sealants and similar etc used in the external wool construction should be of limited combustibility see appendix a this restriction does not apply to masonry cavity wool construction which complies with diagram 34 in section 9.
02:25:51 complies with diagram 34 in section 9. see that now you see the words limited combustibility there what was what did you were you familiar with that expression or phrase at the time you came into the project uh
02:26:03 at the time you came into the project uh i don't particularly uh remember being aware of it or understanding exactly what it means i think um i think i think in general terms you would
02:26:16 i think in general terms you would um you know in even non-construction terms you would you would understand or you would perceive to understand what is combustible and what isn't combustible what it means
02:26:27 combustible what it means yeah and i think again in in general terms you would understand that
02:26:33 you wouldn't put you wouldn't put something on the building that was gonna add to the fire and
02:26:44 and and cause obviously the disaster did but that's that answer suggests that you were familiar with as you put it what burns and what doesn't burn so combustible and long in broad terms as in
02:26:56 and long in broad terms as in i'd know if you set fire to paper it would uh it would satellite if you set fire to a brick it wouldn't you know in broad terms yeah but what i'm what i'm focusing on is the expression limited combustibility
02:27:09 is the expression limited combustibility and just i wouldn't have known that um okay
02:27:12 okay thank you did any colleagues of yours in ryden to your knowledge
02:27:19 knowledge have any experience understanding or knowledge of what that expression meant limited combustibility i don't know i can't don't ask for them
02:27:31 can't don't ask for them can i look at sea triple zero one two zero three two please and i'd like you to go to page two in this email chain
02:27:42 this email chain it's an email from you to claire williams of the tmo halfway down the page there uh on the 24th of october 2014
02:27:54 on the 24th of october 2014 and the subject is grenfell and windows you see that and in the second paragraph
02:28:07 and in the second paragraph if you look at the first full bullet point on page two i'm so sorry you need to get back a page i think um that's where it starts and if we could flip to the top of page two which is halfway through this email
02:28:20 two which is halfway through this email you can see the second bullet point building regs you see that yes and it says let's look at it together it says from experience with refurbishment and having looked at the approved documents i don't feel this area is a big risk if
02:28:33 i don't feel this area is a big risk if you were carrying out a standard window replacement program without cladding then you would have no choice but thick new thicker frames within the existing aperture thereby slightly decreasing the daylight
02:28:42 daylight building control would feel the thermal benefits using modern materials without weighing any negatives also the required background ventilation figures for replacement of existing windows are lower than what we've been asked
02:28:51 asked to achieve here now this email and indeed this bullet point in particular was of course in the context of a discussion with claire williams of the tmo
02:29:02 the tmo about the size of the new windows in the existing structural openings so that it's fair to you to show you that but it does it
02:29:08 does it it does it tell us that you had on this occasion and in that context personally considered the building regulations and read the approved documents i'm not sure
02:29:20 read the approved documents i'm not sure i'd have read the approved documents i might
02:29:23 might i may have seeked advice from others but in relation to windows i would assume without knowing the full email trail that it's talking about new values and the need to meet certain
02:29:37 new values and the need to meet certain new values but this email shows you personally expressing a view and giving advice on how to comply with the building regulations doesn't it in relation to windows yeah but it in
02:29:49 in relation to windows yeah but it in relation to that do you accept that it shows you personally expressing a view about how to comply with the building regulations
02:29:58 um
02:30:02 in general terms yes but i'm i'm expressing the view to say that i don't feel there's a risk when it comes to the windows yeah and window frames yeah so would i have read if you're if you're
02:30:14 would i have read if you're if you're asking would i have read the approved document relevant to that fully understood it etc then then no i would have been
02:30:24 replying on previous experience and knowledge
02:30:28 knowledge yeah can we take this email and this bullet point as showing us that in that context and on that
02:30:36 on that issue
02:30:39 you uh considered that advising on compliance with building regulations was within your remit
02:30:51 i don't believe it's in my remit
02:30:57 as in i would seek guidance from others to
02:31:01 to if i would be present i would present information um to the client um as would it
02:31:12 to the client um as would it be expected and i would i would get i would either formulate emails like this from my experience from previous or if there was a particular point
02:31:25 or if there was a particular point relating to regulations for example um then i would ask others if i was if i was unsure i think in this particular case we're talking about when i believe we're talking about windows i believe we're talking about thermal performance
02:31:38 we're talking about thermal performance yeah you see it says having looked at the approved documents but uh sorry do you want to have you finished your only contact i was going to say yeah having looked at
02:31:49 i was going to say yeah having looked at he's i understand that to be slightly different to having read it from cover to cover and fully understood everything but you know there it could easily have been a and i don't recall this
02:32:00 been a and i don't recall this particularly but this could easily have been a comment as in you know will it meet the you value and click through and yeah there's a you value there and yes it does all from
02:32:11 value there and yes it does all from previous experience so um i understand sorry yes no and i'm grateful to you and i don't want to cut you off at all i understand that what i'm really seeking to get at here
02:32:22 what i'm really seeking to get at here is because you told claire williams that you had in answering an issue looked yourself at the approved documents because you say having looked at the approved documents
02:32:33 documents my question is um can we take this email as showing us that when addressing specific issues you yourself
02:32:41 yourself did regard it as within your remit to look at and advise on the approved documents
02:32:49 no i don't no i agree that's a fair statement i would pass on information if it was something if it was something basic and simple
02:33:00 basic and simple then then
02:33:04 i could well add you know i could have looked at the approved document um like i say we're talking about you i think we're talking about you values here
02:33:12 here um i don't think it was my remit to interpret
02:33:16 interpret building regulations and to advise the client on that because i don't think i'm capable of doing that i don't think i'm confident to do that but i think you may be getting ahead of
02:33:27 but i think you may be getting ahead of sorry
02:33:27 sorry a little bit on this i think all that mr millet is suggesting to you is that in this particular case yes because you used the words having looked at the approved documents
02:33:38 approved documents it suggested on this question you either looked at them yourself or possibly i'm not sure whether this is your evidence you ask someone else to look at them and then report to you so
02:33:49 look at them and then report to you so that you could reply sorry yes that's really so yeah yes i yes i i yes i agree that's as far as we're going for them yes sorry yes um the next question may take you further
02:34:02 take you further yes and and and since you were the one i think who looked at them i i'm just asking you whether we can take that
02:34:11 take that as an indication that that you yourself were
02:34:15 were prepared to advise on compliance with the approved documents rather than relying on somebody else to tell you
02:34:26 i i don't agree that email suggests that
02:34:32 it doesn't necessarily say that i've personally looked at it and then i would advise on
02:34:36 advise on on approved documents on well it says having looked at the approved documents is that a reference to somebody else having looked at i don't recall i don't recall the email so without going through the chain i
02:34:47 so without going through the chain i don't recall it let's move to a different subject i'm going to ask you now some questions about the awareness of different types of cladding and some and other fires at the time at the time of the grenfell tower
02:34:58 at the time of the grenfell tower project were you aware of the different kinds of cladding panels available in the uk
02:35:05 the uk no so do i take it sorry let me explain a bit further systems as in different as in acm or as in um
02:35:16 as in acm or as in um cement board or or other then i would have understood there are different systems yes but within acm acm just meant acm to me it
02:35:28 within acm acm just meant acm to me it didn't i didn't know there were different categories within acm okay but let let's just tease out a couple of points of detail from that answer were you aware that cladding panels were made
02:35:40 cladding panels were made or sometimes made with with with a variety of materials including metal and metal composite materials
02:35:48 uh yes i was probably aware there was different yeah and were you aware that acm panels an acm stands for aluminium composite
02:35:59 an acm stands for aluminium composite material
02:36:01 material frequently contained a core made from polyethylene i was aware i wouldn't have known it was necessarily polyethylene but i was aware that the
02:36:12 but i was aware that the acms that i'd had experience with in the past were all the same and i believe looking back now that they probably were polyethylene
02:36:27 were you uh aware that polyethylene was combustible no
02:36:35 where you were aware the panels sorry acm panels were also available with fire retardant cores which were less combustible no
02:36:48 to your knowledge at the time was there any awareness within ryden as a company of um the combustibility of polyethylene cores within acm panels i don't believe
02:37:00 cores within acm panels i don't believe so now was there any awareness within ryden of the availability of cladding panels with fire retardant calls not aware of were you aware of the potential fire risks
02:37:11 risks of using aluminium cladding no were you aware of major fires which had occurred in residential buildings both in the united kingdom and overseas
02:37:24 both in the united kingdom and overseas involving
02:37:26 involving cladding the only fire i was aware of involving cladding was relevant to the chao cost estate in their own
02:37:34 their own previous installation right as at the spring of 2014 were you aware that a serious fire in south london
02:37:45 that a serious fire in south london had occurred in the summer of 2009 involving cladding resulting in six fatalities namely the cladding at la the fire at lachnall house i'd heard of lacknow house
02:37:56 lacknow house but i didn't i couldn't have told you the details surrounding that right and
02:38:04 were you aware of a spate of high-rise fires
02:38:09 fires in the united arab emirates in 2012 to 2013.
02:38:13 2013. no what about the lacrosse fire in melbourne in november 2014. that's after you came into the project yeah not aware of that
02:38:21 of that not aware of the history of high-rise fires in the united kingdom running from 1991 leslie heights never heard of that no
02:38:28 no never heard of it garnet court ever heard of that no
02:38:40 you had heard of lachenal house i think but were you aware at the time that external fire spread had been an issue in that fire um a factor i was
02:38:54 um a factor i was i may have been aware that external fire spread was was a factor yes i wasn't aware that there was cladding panels on on the building or anything relevant to
02:39:05 on the building or anything relevant to to acm cladding or cladding
02:39:08 right was there any training program or internal intelligence within ryden particularly to those teams doing
02:39:19 particularly to those teams doing high-rise refurbishments about the lessons
02:39:21 lessons learned from the lack of house fire not that required to your recollection was there any industry
02:39:29 industry uh intelligence information gossip even about the lessons learned from from the lacanal house fire that there may have been there may have been um
02:39:41 been um i'm sure it would have been reported in the in the construction press so it may have been right okay were you an avid reader of the construction press or did it not
02:39:53 construction press or did it not uh as and when as and when i had either time or it was appropriate but not an avid reader i want to ask you now about
02:40:04 avid reader i want to ask you now about a guidance document building control alliance
02:40:07 alliance technical guidance note 18 uh issue naught
02:40:11 naught from june 2014. now i've just said i've just given it a title is that title familiar to you no no uh are you familiar with the the building
02:40:22 are you familiar with the the building control alliance as a body um
02:40:28 not particularly did you know uh or do you know that the building control alliance issue guidance documents for the construction industry
02:40:39 industry no i'm not aware of them do we take it from that that would follow i suppose that as of march or april 2014 you you were not familiar with any bca guidance documents
02:40:50 guidance documents no that's right right let's just flash one up in front of you to see whether it it you know anything about it cep triple zero five seven two nine four
02:41:01 zero five seven two nine four i don't expect that to be a flash of recognition mr lawrence so forgive me for this but here it is bca technical guidance note 18 use of combustible cladding materials on residential buildings
02:41:13 on residential buildings i i i think i know the answer to this question but i feel i should ask it are you familiar or were you familiar with this document no right can you account for being contract manager on the grenfell tower
02:41:24 manager on the grenfell tower refurbishment which involved a major overcloud of a high-rise residential building and yet not be familiar with this document i think there are a lot of technical
02:41:35 i think there are a lot of technical guidance and documents out there about a lot of materials on in the construction overall um referring back to my previous comments um
02:41:48 previous comments um the technical and and specialities would we would be relying on others to be aware of these and how would coming back to it you were
02:42:00 and how would coming back to it you were relying on others and how would you check whether the others had used industry guidance such as this if you weren't aware of it yourself i ensuring
02:42:13 first employing the right contractors or and or designers um and ultimately when it comes to compliance we are we are looking for the
02:42:24 compliance we are we are looking for the building to be signed off shall we say by for regulations by by building a truck
02:42:41 for regulations by by building a truck now let's just look at the introduction if we can
02:42:44 if we can bca technical guidance notes are for the benefit of its members in the construction industry to provide information promote good practice and encourage consistency of interpretation for the benefit of our clients
02:42:55 clients they are advisory in nature and in all cases the responsibility to responsibility for determining compliance with the building regulations remains
02:43:02 remains with the building control body concerned [Applause] and then it goes on to say the guidance note is based on information available at the time and the approved document approved
02:43:13 and the approved document approved documents should be consulted for full details in any particular case
02:43:21 and then looking on at the introduction section
02:43:25 section uh in the second paragraph where a building exceeds 18 meters in height adb 2 recommends for the entire wall area
02:43:34 wall area both below and above 18 meters either the use of materials of limited combustibility for all key components or to submit evidence that the complete underlying proposed external cladding system has been assessed according to the
02:43:45 has been assessed according to the acceptance criteria in br135 this guidance nate outlines both procedures in more detail and addresses common misconceptions relating to combustibility and surface spread of flame
02:43:55 flame ratings now just looking at that i've read it to you i know you haven't read this document were you familiar with the principle at the time
02:44:07 the time that all key components had to be of limited combustibility or that there had to be evidence that the complete
02:44:16 complete proposed external planning system had been assessed according to the acceptance criteria in br135 i wasn't aware of that you weren't i see and i'm not sure therefore there's much
02:44:28 and i'm not sure therefore there's much point in me asking any further questions on this document
02:44:34 well let me just ask you one one more can i ask you to look at page two
02:44:41 in light of the answers you were giving me in relation to 12.5 of adb before let me just see if i can just ask one or two more questions page two it says at the very top
02:44:55 page two it says at the very top where the building exceeds 18 meters in height the bca recommends three options for sharing compliance with paragraph 12.7
02:45:01 12.7 of adb2 and there they are option one use of limited use of materials of limited combustibility option two uh acceptable alternative approach is the
02:45:14 acceptable alternative approach is the submission of evidence to the building control body that the complete proposed external planning system has been assessed in accordance with the
02:45:20 with the criteria acceptance criteria in br135 and then
02:45:24 and then and then option three a desktop study those are the three options i know you didn't read the document but were you aware
02:45:31 aware at the time of your involvement in the project that these three options were three available routes to compliance in relation to external wall construction no my only experience had ever been has taken the
02:45:44 ever been has taken the what's now known as the linear route
02:45:47 yeah i see i'm going to show you a few more documents mr lawrence but it may be that if you haven't seen them we can take this very quickly
02:45:57 quickly but um the next one is the next edition of this document june 2015 version one it's called it starts at naught and the second one is one this is bca technical guidance note 18
02:46:10 this is bca technical guidance note 18 and it's at cel full zeros two three four seven
02:46:20 it's very similar to the addition from the previous year but if you go to the next page
02:46:31 you'll see that there are now four options
02:46:37 uh and options one two and three remain the same as they did the previous year in the document i showed you just before option four is new if none of the above options are suitable the client may consider addressing this issue via a
02:46:49 consider addressing this issue via a holistic fire engineering approach sorry engineered approach taking into account the building geometry ignition risk factors restricting fire spread etc
02:46:59 were you aware in general terms that by the middle of 2015 there were now four options for four routes to compliance
02:47:10 compliance no
02:47:15 and i think we can take it that there was no holistic fire engineering approach
02:47:19 approach in relation to the external cladding for granville tower no it did and to repeat what i said previously it's only aware of the linear route
02:47:32 it's only aware of the linear route yeah and now others can i ask you next to look
02:47:35 to look at the cwct guidance we discussed it earlier in the context of the nbs specification let's just have a look at that
02:47:46 i i think it's right isn't it that by may 2015 you had come to hear of the cwct itself as a body uh i under
02:47:59 itself as a body uh i under i yes i would have known there was a body the cwct out there yes yes and i could show you an email string if you like which refers to your refers to that in your discussions with a man called mr david brissenden of
02:48:11 with a man called mr david brissenden of synergist
02:48:11 synergist in the context of you remember do you remember that i don't remember that specific email but um
02:48:18 um i would have known who the cwct was okay fine and you did you know that it was a specialist professional body in the cladding industry by its title yes by its title uh
02:48:30 by its title yes by its title uh did did you know by that point may 2015 if not earlier what cwct did um i think well that we probably only ever looked at it when it comes to testing
02:48:44 as in rain water testing soakage testing curtain wall in windows [Music]
02:48:52 [Music] and items like that so i was asking you a question about what cwct did as a body but you've answered me i think sorry as a document um but from that answer do i take it that you did
02:49:03 answer do i take it that you did actually use the cwct guidance as a document when looking at specific rainwater questions no but you'd often find in the nbs spec that there will be a under the testing regime for curtain
02:49:16 under the testing regime for curtain wall in windows there'll be reference to cwct with hosepipe for rainwater testing now i'd like to
02:49:29 now i'd like to show you one guidance document from cwct in particular and this is cwct's technical note 73 at cwct zeros
02:49:40 at cwct zeros please
02:49:45 this is entitled fire performance of curtain walls and rain screens and you can see from the bottom of the page that it was published in march 2011
02:49:56 page that it was published in march 2011 if you put up page one um there you can see uh the document is this were you aware of this guidance note as at the spring of
02:50:07 this guidance note as at the spring of 2014
02:50:08 2014 no you weren't
02:50:14 can i just ask you one question on it to see if it see if this it triggers a recollection or or just to explore your your state of knowledge look at the bottom of page one and over to page two
02:50:25 bottom of page one and over to page two it's quite difficult to have them both there at the same time but if you look at the bottom of page one right hand column it says in england and wales
02:50:32 wales and northern ireland materials may be described as non-combustible and if we turn to page 2 of limited combustibility or class naught
02:50:43 naught using definitions given in adb materials may also be classified as class one two three or four in accordance with bs 476 parts six and
02:50:54 in accordance with bs 476 parts six and seven uh
02:50:57 seven uh were you familiar with that principle or those principles or guidance at the time of your coming into the grenfell tower project the only thing that i was familiar with
02:51:10 the only thing that i was familiar with was the reference to class naught well we'll come to that later on we you say
02:51:17 say but picking up that answer you were familiar with the reference to class naught
02:51:21 naught what did that mean to you uh the the surface spread of flame that the surface spread of flame what that they wouldn't whatever product
02:51:33 what that they wouldn't whatever product it was whether it be internal paint services um or whatever wouldn't promote the surface spread of flame i see and do you remember how you got that
02:51:47 and do you remember how you got that informational understanding um i think
02:51:53 not not totally i mean i think probably originally earlier on on in my career probably relating to internal paint services in communal areas etc
02:52:05 areas etc but i was aware um from the previous projects so chao cots and very appoint that the um or was i i was under the belief
02:52:17 um or was i i was under the belief should i say that the um external part of the cladding
02:52:21 cladding should be of class naught
02:52:25 settled face shall i say sorry
02:52:32 and did you understand anything about how a material would come to be classified as class naught so you don't know you didn't have any understanding of the tests no
02:52:42 tests no no moving down page two a little bit further we can see some definitions i just want to pick these up very briefly with you first of all you can see the definition of a fire stop
02:52:52 stop a seal provided to close an imperfection or fit
02:52:55 or fit or design tolerance between elements of components to restrict the passage of fire
02:53:00 fire and smoke did that um correspond to what your understanding of what a fire stop was or is uh yes
02:53:12 or is uh yes and if we look at the next column of text you can see at the top of the page cavity barrier a construction to close a concealed space against penetration or spread of smoke or flame
02:53:24 or spread of smoke or flame but again did that correspond at the time of of your understanding of what a cavity barrier was yes if we don't i think we can just add to that i think we
02:53:35 to that i think we probably um would quite often generalize so we would see them
02:53:42 see them um as interchangeable terms i know if you look at the specifics they're not but
02:53:47 but i think if you as you would have seen through the documents you'll see fire stop fire break cavity barrier um we'll come to those documents in due course but that that's partly why i was
02:53:58 course but that that's partly why i was asking
02:53:59 asking this early stage but you i think the answer is you understood that there was at least in strict definitional terms of difference yes and they do different things a cavity barrier and a fast dog do different
02:54:10 barrier and a fast dog do different things yes thank you can i ask you to turn to page four please uh and we can see a statement which runs over to page five on the document which says for rain screen this is under regulations for rain screen was
02:54:22 is under regulations for rain screen was the cavity barriers are provided and then over the page to the top of page five left-hand column to close the edges of cavities including around window openings and
02:54:33 including around window openings and then at the junction of the wall with a compartment wall or floor what did you understand the need for cavity barriers around windows to be in general terms if not by reference to this document i'm not sure i was aware
02:54:45 this document i'm not sure i was aware of
02:54:46 of the need for cavity barriers around windows i think my experience in the previous
02:54:54 projects was that there was there was a need for
02:54:58 need for the to be in line with the compartment walls and floors if we turn to page six of the same document we can see a title use of combustible material
02:55:11 use of combustible material and then in the second paragraph it says to satisfy the recommendations in adb insulation and filler materials in walls of a building with a floor more than 18 meters above ground level are required to be of limited combustibility
02:55:23 combustibility this requirement does not apply to sealants and gaskets so there's an exception for insulation in the cavity of masonry walls similarly similar requirements supply in scotland and northern ireland
02:55:34 was that and i know you were not familiar with the document or the precise provisions of approved document be as you've told us but in general terms was that your understanding
02:55:45 understanding of the general requirements at the time you were working on the project
02:55:56 um
02:56:01 i wouldn't have known the difference between the limitless limited combustibility and quite to what elements it would go to
02:56:10 to or would be applied to at that time no did you understand at the time of the grenfell tower project that uh materials
02:56:21 that uh materials insulation and filler materials in the walls of a building uh with floors more than 18 meters above ground level had to be of limited combustibility uh i'm not sure i'd have
02:56:34 i'm not sure i'd have i'm not sure i remember knowing that at the time right thank you
02:56:42 going down two paragraphs
02:56:46 to the end of that little section it says the only commonly used insulation material
02:56:51 material that will satisfy the definition of limited combustibility is mineral rule did you know that uh i didn't know that no
02:56:59 no are you surprised to read it here
02:57:04 uh not given we know what we know now oh no
02:57:08 no would you all right were you aware of any other insulation material that would have satisfied the definition of limited combustibility no did you or anybody else at ryden ever
02:57:22 no did you or anybody else at ryden ever consider using mineral wool as the insulation at grenfell tower in light of what is said in this industry guidance i think there was um i'm sure we'll come on to some there was
02:57:36 i'm sure we'll come on to some there was our experience had been that rock wall had been used as the insulation on our previous projects it goes on it is sometimes argued that
02:57:48 it goes on it is sometimes argued that the thermoset insulation materials with non-combustible facings may be regarded as satisfying the requirement are you familiar with the phrase thermoset insulation materials
02:58:01 thermoset insulation materials did you know that thermoset would include pir poly isocyanurate what about phenolic insulation i've heard the names obviously but i
02:58:13 i've heard the names obviously but i couldn't tell you it was a thermoset insulation material were you aware as as an industry professional at the time of this argument that that sometimes
02:58:24 of this argument that that sometimes argued that thermoset insulation materials
02:58:27 materials with non-combustible facings can be regarded as satisfying the requirement no sorry i do have to ask you to say no because
02:58:34 because although the transfer sorry we'll recall that your shape sorry it doesn't really work so well yeah no thank you uh
02:58:46 yeah no thank you uh and i'm sorry to keep asking you questions about a document you've never seen but
02:58:50 seen but it's it's really just an attempt to encapsulate the guidance and see if you understood what was out there under alternative uh approaches you'll see
02:59:00 see uh at the bottom of the same column on the same page it says for rain screen walls adb allows fire testing in accordance with bs8414 to be used instead of providing cavity barriers and non-combustible insulation
02:59:11 barriers and non-combustible insulation as described above where testing is carried out in accordance with bs8414 the test applies to the complete cladding system including insulation rain screen
02:59:22 including insulation rain screen flashings and cavity barriers changing any of these components may affect the ability of the wall to resist the spread of fire
02:59:30 i know you told us you hadn't heard i think of bs-8414 but in general terms did you understand that such a thing as a complete test involving these elements existed as a
02:59:43 involving these elements existed as a route to compliance uh no because we'd only ever used the linear route previously i'd only yeah only experienced that previous
03:00:00 yes
03:00:03 can i then turn to a different subject uh which is the system or lack of system in ryden for disseminating good practice
03:00:14 in ryden for disseminating good practice what was there a system in writing for disseminating guidance documents such as this one that's on the screen so that senior project professionals would be familiar with them
03:00:25 with them i don't recall one but so there was no library where a professional who who needed to look and understand what technical guidance was out there in respect of for example planning could go i think we had a the
03:00:38 had a the i think we had a um log on to a um or subscription should i say to a
03:00:47 internet based construction library so we we had that
03:00:56 i see so would that library have allowed access to documents such as as this or technical guidance note 18 or the other documents it would have done definitely building rigs whether it
03:01:08 done definitely building rigs whether it had this on it or not i would have no idea right now was there any system within riding by which senior professionals in charge of projects would would be kept up to date
03:01:20 would would be kept up to date with industry guidance such as this uh no i don't lisa did anybody at ryden ever go on courses or training on the building regulations or
03:01:29 or associated industry guidance
03:01:40 did you ever discuss cpd continuing professional development uh with your peers and superiors in writing
03:01:49 writing i don't recall any specific conversations right did you take any steps yourself to ensure that you were kept you were kept abreast of of industry developments
03:02:01 developments i think like like i said earlier would be reading the industry press but not
03:02:08 not religiously and um you know every day every week but right and you say industry press is there any particular publication that stands out
03:02:19 particular publication that stands out which
03:02:20 which caught your interests which i'll follow at the time i was a member of the ciob so we'd have been getting a a monthly magazine from them um
03:02:32 magazine from them um so which i didn't always read but was you know would come through and then you've got other industry press that is electronic
03:02:46 i'd like to turn to the question of ryden's design expertise now if i may and to ask you some questions about how ryden operated as a design and build
03:02:57 ryden operated as a design and build contractor on this project and in general terms
03:03:02 the first question is did you or did ryden rather take any steps to ensure that
03:03:07 that it had set up an appropriate structure to ensure that all aspects of the design works and all aspects of the building works the construction works were to be met
03:03:18 i don't recall there being a
03:03:24 the structure would be again employing the relevant specialists to be able to uh give us that advice i see in a project of this size and
03:03:35 i see in a project of this size and complexity in your own experience would it be normal to establish a matrix of responsibilities which would set out which contractor or subcontractor was responsible for which element of the design
03:03:49 my knowledge at the time was i've been there for 11 years so it was ryden based knowledge i don't recall there being a design matrix document right
03:04:02 what about on other projects other than grenfell are you saying that that was true across the board yes but mike from my experience my recollection yeah did do we take it from that that
03:04:13 yeah did do we take it from that that you didn't at least yourself seek to establish a matrix of responsibilities in relation to the grenfell tower contract no we didn't say i don't recall there being a design responsibility matrix
03:04:24 being a design responsibility matrix process and or document and i was going to ask you why not but i think you may have answered it is because you never do is that right i don't believe at the time ryden had that process right if you didn't
03:04:37 process right if you didn't have such a process how were you going to ensure that each contractor or each subcontractor understood its responsibilities and its liabilities
03:04:49 its responsibilities and its liabilities so that there would be no gaps in scopes or in deliverables
03:04:59 i don't know true factors i don't know it would have been good to have a a um design responsibility matrix
03:05:12 a um design responsibility matrix yes now we've seen earlier this morning because i took you to them ryden's express obligations in the in the design and build contract which you know to the tmo particularly to complete the works in a
03:05:24 particularly to complete the works in a workman like manor and uh to design and construct the works in compliance with all statutory requirements i showed you that earlier
03:05:34 is it fair to say that although ryden maintained contractual responsibility for the design of the grenfell tower refurbishment
03:05:45 refurbishment in practice it relied on other people to make design decisions agree was is that all design decisions
03:05:55 uh yes we would well we would have a um as construction managers we would have an input into um how things were
03:06:08 um how things were phrases so things were buildable buildability of of the design from a safety and a physically how
03:06:19 from a safety and a physically how you're able to build stuff um but that's that's really the extent of it
03:06:25 of it can i ask you to look at an email ryd triple zero 39525
03:06:34 this is an email from you on the 22nd of april 2015 i want to take you to page two please
03:06:47 at the bottom
03:06:50 and this is an email uh the very bottom of the page from you to david britton do you see that
03:07:01 david britton do you see that and i think you need to go to the top of page three for what i want to show you it says we ride in maintenance limited are the main contractor but only provide management our works are carried out but
03:07:12 management our works are carried out but subcontractors i think should be by subcontractors there in the case of the cladding it's a company called harley curtain walling limited they are also not pas 2030 accredited
03:07:26 they are also not pas 2030 accredited now leave aside the accreditation point for the moment where you say we only provide management is that a fair assessment of ryden's business model it only provided
03:07:38 business model it only provided management yes can i ask you to look please next at a document a rt406670
03:07:50 rt406670 and go within those to pages four and five
03:07:54 five you need the bottom of page four i think and then the top of page five this is an email if we go to the hold on something's gone wrong uh if we go to the top of
03:08:07 the bottom of page four claire williams to you 19th of march 2015. i'm sorry it's to simon o'connor but copy to you urgent grenfell residence meeting of 17th of march
03:08:18 meeting of 17th of march see that yes and um if you go to page five
03:08:23 five you'll see that there is a request from claire williams who'd sent sent you this email
03:08:34 sent you this email in relation for information in relation to a number of questions that she's proposed on behalf of the residents of grenfell tower and she says at the top of page five can you please urgently in capital
03:08:46 can you please urgently in capital letters ask jaya's write to do me a concise paragraph for each of these items in layman's terms and you can see the items on the previous page that they're not relevant for present
03:08:57 that they're not relevant for present purposes
03:09:00 and then if you go to page two and three and put those up next to each other if you can
03:09:06 you can or if you if it is possible um we can see uh your answer to her same day morning claire at the bottom of page
03:09:17 page two on the top of page three do you see that yep
03:09:22 that yep so you're responding not simon o'connor and on page three under uh
03:09:29 um on that page uh you can see in the third paragraph third main paragraph done when ryden were contracted to carry out the works do you see that yes when ryden were contracted to carry
03:09:40 yes when ryden were contracted to carry out the works
03:09:43 their design team looked at each pipe size and location to see if they could minimize the space needed for installation you see that and then you go on uh in the next paragraph because of the existing low
03:09:54 paragraph because of the existing low ceiling height within grenfell the ryden design team investigated numerous pipe routes you see that yes and then in the next paragraph
03:10:04 paragraph uh there's also a reference to the write and design team under answer one answer to one second line once ryden were contracted to carry out the works their design team
03:10:15 to carry out the works their design team and the kctmo team revisited the hiu position
03:10:21 and then there's a further reference later on to ryden's design team um you were responsible for this email going out uh
03:10:32 going out uh did you choose those words the ride and design team or their design team in each case i would imagine so because if i wrote the email then yeah but what did you understand
03:10:44 yeah but what did you understand or intend the phrase ryden's design team to mean our team of designers so in this case probably it's js rot or not
03:10:56 in this case probably it's js rot or not probably it's js right if we're talking about hius and pipe work um
03:11:01 work um it would also be
03:11:04 architect structural engineers especially subcontractors so when you use the phrase ryden's design team are you referring to individuals employed by ryden or are you referring to what i mean is a
03:11:17 or are you referring to what i mean is a project as a whole i see so in fact is this right that ryden
03:11:23 ryden didn't actually have a design team of its own
03:11:27 its own in-house yeah correct it was all outsourced yes
03:11:32 would it be standard practice for a design
03:11:35 design and build contractor given that the contract was to design and build to have a design manager with design expertise within ryden in order to control the
03:11:46 within ryden in order to control the design process it was undertaking contractually uh well i can only talk about my experience at the time within writing and they didn't have a design manager
03:12:00 i see but from being an industry professional at the time was your experience within uh ryden common or was it mike's my experience if
03:12:11 common or was it mike's my experience if i talk about my experience now then i i think i'm still about behalf of the industry i would i would say probably 90 percent of the industry doesn't have in-house design managers
03:12:24 doesn't have in-house design managers no some do but i would say the majority industry
03:12:28 industry don't right you're saying operate the same way as ryden operated thing i see thank you
03:12:42 can we then turn to the another topic which is your own role uh in product selection but your role generally and in product selection and break that up a bit
03:12:54 selection and break that up a bit you've already explained your role i think in your witness statement um and paragraph 45 which i showed you earlier in your evidence let me just see if we can take it in in stages is it fair to say that you saw
03:13:05 stages is it fair to say that you saw your role as managing the various contractual relationships and obligations between the parties involved in this project yes yes did you also see your role as
03:13:16 yes yes did you also see your role as overseeing the coordination and management of the design process without yourself actually being involved in the design itself
03:13:26 yes did you also see your role as making sure that the ultimate design complied with the client's requirements
03:13:35 uh ultimately ultimately by virtual contracts yes but if you're implying that i would
03:13:47 yes but if you're implying that i would check every designer to make sure that all of their designs are compliant then then no i'm not sure if that's what you're tasting
03:13:59 uh i understand the answer sorry uh just to be clear when we're talking about the client's requirements i i mean the requirements set out in the contract between
03:14:09 between you and the tmo just to be clear about that yes yes i see can i then turn to your statement uh at page 10 paragraph 51 ryd triple zero nine four
03:14:21 two two zero page ten you say paragraph 51 there
03:14:26 51 there uh the write and maintenance team did not have internal design expertise to double check each aspect of technical design the contractual expectations required the contr the sub the subcontractors to
03:14:37 the contr the sub the subcontractors to produce
03:14:38 produce a design or specify the use of a material that was both compliant with legal standards and suitable for the project see that and then you say
03:14:46 say i would expect a contractor to flag up an issue if they believe there was a problem with compliance or suitability
03:14:56 you see that yes and then if you look at paragraph 52 i'll just show you all of that my understanding was that the materials to be used had either been specified at
03:15:08 to be used had either been specified at the tender stage by the kc tmo in conjunction with its design as stroke advisors or by our specialist subcontractors i would have expected that any material that was specified in this way would comply with the relevant legal
03:15:20 comply with the relevant legal requirements at no point during my work at grenfell tower did i have any reason to believe that that was not the case just taking those paragraphs i've read out aloud to you mr lawrence together can i
03:15:31 aloud to you mr lawrence together can i just ask you some questions about that is it fair to say that you neither you nor anybody else in ryden ever investigated or checked the
03:15:42 ever investigated or checked the compliance of any product used on the project with any uh statutory requirements or guidance uh i don't believe we did unless we had
03:15:53 uh i don't believe we did unless we had any specific i don't recall doing so no would it also be fair to say that in fact neither you nor anybody else at ryden actually had the expertise with which to do so
03:16:04 the expertise with which to do so correct is it also fair to say that you relied completely on specialists such as architects or specialist subcontractors in order to provide design advice
03:16:15 provide design advice correct and also to raise any issues which arose without ryden asking correct and also you relied on such specialists to
03:16:28 you relied on such specialists to provide
03:16:29 provide advice on materials and products and whether they complied yes correct so does it follow from all of that that ryden wouldn't and indeed couldn't actually know for itself
03:16:41 know for itself whether it was properly performing its own obligations to the tmo to select compliant materials that we saw in the in the contract
03:16:51 in those in the terms that you're putting it then [Music]
03:16:56 [Music] we would use obviously contracts um and delegated responsibilities um so others
03:17:07 um so others complied and were were contractually obliged to comply the same as we were i see
03:17:12 see so are you telling us that although ryden had undertaken expressed contractual obligations to the tmo to do those things in the contracts we
03:17:23 to do those things in the contracts we looked at your understanding at the time was that you complied with those obligations by farming it all out to others correct i see do you accept also that ryden retained a design responsibility
03:17:35 ryden retained a design responsibility to the tmo under its contract i think you do yes and how could you do your job to ensure that the designs complied with the client's requirements as promised if you
03:17:46 client's requirements as promised if you didn't have the necessary design experience either you personally or ryden because we would employ people that plan again we would look to employ people that did i see so again reliance on others
03:17:59 i see so again reliance on others yes
03:18:03 that and i'm sorry to hop on on this but let me just see if i can round this off given that what you've just told us would it follow that ryden was never in any position itself to form a view
03:18:15 any position itself to form a view about the technical accuracy or adequacy of the design drawings for the cladding facade that studio e produced great and the same in respect to the design drawings of the cladding facade
03:18:27 design drawings of the cladding facade produced by harley great and the same in respect to the cladding or design drawings of the facade produced by studio e or harley with com with approved
03:18:39 or harley with com with approved document b and the building regulations great same again in respect of the specification of the insulation uh or other cladding products for the facade yeah with debit
03:18:50 facade yeah with debit and the compliance with the cladding facade as built with the with approved document b and the building regulations exactly or indeed compliance with the industry guidance that i've shown you
03:19:01 industry guidance that i've shown you but you're not familiar with same again
03:19:07 can i next turn in the ten minutes or so we've got before we break which we may cover in that time a new topic design coordination
03:19:18 a new topic design coordination can i ask you to look please first at ryd triple zero one seven eight seven zero
03:19:29 this is a set of minutes of progress meeting number two held on the 19th of august
03:19:34 august 2014. this is about five or six months after you've come into the project and i think you didn't attend that meeting to be fair to you mr lawrence but we can see on page one that you were provided with the minutes for
03:19:46 provided with the minutes for information at the bottom of the first box there yes great you do seriously uh uh now if we look at page two at item 3.1
03:19:55 3.1 please uh
03:20:03 it says under the rubric design development 3.1 cw that's claire williams to appoint a client
03:20:10 client design advisor and then there's a post-meeting note cw advised that the tma will perform the role of
03:20:18 role of the cda in-house they will therefore need to sign off all design
03:20:25 what did you understand well first of all did you when you've got these minutes do you remember reading them uh i don't recall them i would have read them but i don't recall them all right um what did you understand if anything
03:20:38 um what did you understand if anything by the phrase client design advisor
03:20:44 um i wouldn't say that's a normal construction term
03:20:53 i don't know if at this point in time there were ongoing discussions regarding the change from cdmc to principal designer so i don't know if that's
03:21:03 that's relating to this or not
03:21:09 when you receive these do you remember asking anybody well what's the client design advisor i don't know i don't recall these do you remember whether there was
03:21:20 these do you remember whether there was uh
03:21:21 uh any discussion that led to a decision by the tma to assume the role of client design advisor only from what i unless it's linked to the discussion regarding
03:21:33 the discussion regarding cdmc and principal designer right you can see in the post-meeting note there that it's the tmo who are going to sign
03:21:41 sign off all design did you have any understanding at the time about what the implications of that would be
03:21:49 um if i if i was root well as i'm reading it again now i would i would expect them to have meant and obviously we'll have to you'll have to ask them i would expect them to have
03:22:00 to ask them i would expect them to have meant
03:22:01 meant the things like making sure that there was the right right amount of rooms in a in one of the flats and you know kitchens and and items like that as
03:22:14 kitchens and and items like that as opposed to the overall design responsibility
03:22:24 did it mean anything to you at the time i i don't remember i don't remember it no i see
03:22:31 do you remember having any concerns about whether the tmo was sufficiently equipped
03:22:35 equipped to perform that role no i don't i don't recall
03:22:41 can i ask you to look please at sea triple zero one one nine five five
03:22:51 this is an email from you to studio e on the 16th of october 2014.
03:22:59 competent uh and also to neil crawford grenfell design follow-up you see that uh and
03:23:09 uh you can see you say just to give you a heads up i'm planning to hold a design meeting next week
03:23:18 you see that yes and in the middle of the paragraph you say also claire is expressing concerns about the current design wanting more
03:23:29 about the current design wanting more changes and saying she hasn't got any information this i wouldn't mind so much but everything she has questioned so far relates to the tender drawings which we were obviously issued by the kctmo
03:23:39 kctmo which were obviously issued by the kctma so either she hasn't read her own drawings or she feels that they are wrong
03:23:45 wrong or other things have changed since the tender within the tmo either way we need to get it bottomed out and understand their thinking so costly errors aren't made bruce we will definitely need you to
03:23:56 bruce we will definitely need you to attend because you're the only one who really knows the history of why the design is where it is and the historic decisions by the client you see that and i'll just show you one more document
03:24:08 and i'll just show you one more document on
03:24:08 on on this sea triple zero one two zero three two
03:24:21 this is an email from you to studio again
03:24:25 again on on the 24th of october 2014 uh where you say gents i thought i'd forward you a copy of this email trail to show you what is likely to be said to planners
03:24:37 and you um you say in the third line there she must have had a change of mind in those five minutes because this got dumped on me before she went on leave for a week also i'm not best pleased
03:24:48 for a week also i'm not best pleased anyway i've tried to put a response together that doesn't undo any of your architectural planning work or tell complete lies hopefully this achieves what the client is requesting without upsetting all other parties uh another context of that uh
03:25:02 uh another context of that uh is um discussion with planners at that time but
03:25:05 time but my question is looking at those two emails i've just shown you in the latter part of 2014 did you have any concerns about claire williams's ability to
03:25:17 about claire williams's ability to perform her role as project manager within the client i don't think i had any concerns i think the just to clarify the first email
03:25:30 from my recollection came about when the client was looking to make changes to the
03:25:37 to the lower floors um and i and
03:25:45 claire had i remember clara to come into the site office and had made comment that um the drawings that we had which were
03:25:56 were hadn't changed i believe since the tender
03:26:00 tender she wanted to make some changes on those drawings which is obviously entirely up for her to do that but
03:26:06 but the insinuation was you haven't given me these drawings to review
03:26:14 which is why you don't know about the changes
03:26:18 changes and my comment was well nothing's changed since you've given them to us in the first place
03:26:26 place which i'm taking that as an intention of what you want us to build
03:26:31 and now you wish to make changes so that's that's what the first email was about
03:26:35 about um yes so i think the answer is sorry so no i didn't didn't have concerns
03:26:44 very well can i then go back to the um minutes of a meeting progress meeting we looked at i think earlier ryd triple zero one seven eight seven
03:26:58 zero uh and this is the progress update 19th of august
03:27:05 of august 2014. we looked at this a moment ago and you can see you receive these minutes for information just in general terms when you receive minutes for information mr lawrence what did you do with them uh
03:27:18 mr lawrence what did you do with them uh but i would generally read them and see what actions we were required to do yes and and is this right that it was essential for you to perform your role but if a matter was discussed
03:27:30 your role but if a matter was discussed at a meeting and you were aware of it you would do something about it if it was your it was for you to do yes i would try to yes did you read all the minutes that were sent to you
03:27:41 were sent to you uh i would imagine so did you make notes of what needed to be done on looking at those minutes um i would have probably used the uh the minutes
03:27:51 minutes i see did you keep any records do you keep any records of or aid memoirs or handwritten records yes
03:27:58 yes um i would have done at the time yes i would have done at the time but we haven't got them now unfortunately right do you know where they are or where they're kept is they're not sort of that would have been long since when were
03:28:09 would have been long since when were talking
03:28:10 talking 600 years ago so so now their long seat's gone now we can see here on this as an example that mr blake steve blake is not recorded as having attended the meeting or even has having been included in the circulation of the
03:28:22 been included in the circulation of the minutes
03:28:22 minutes was that common yes
03:28:27 did you brief mr blake in relation to anything
03:28:31 anything that was relevant to your job which came off the minutes with which you were provided
03:28:36 provided we had we had a weekly team meeting so anything that was relevant or needed clarification or needed assistance with a guidance with then yes we would have done that i see
03:28:50 mr chairman i'm about to turn to a a new topic which is quite a long topic and i was looking at the hour probably the time to stop then yes and we're well we're well doing well so
03:28:59 so good thank you mr lawrence we're gonna have a break now so that we can all get some lunch uh we'll resume at two o'clock please please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence or the
03:29:11 about your evidence or the refurbishment project at all and um if you go to the usher she'll look after you thank you thank you
03:29:26 right two o'clock
03:29:49 you