Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Rydon Evidence - Wednesday 22nd July 2020 (2/2)
00:00:15 right would you ask mr. Lawrence to come back please thank you
00:00:34 right mr. Lawrence we're right to carry on yes
00:00:37 on yes yes thank you yes mr. Mann Thank You mr. chairman mr. Lawrence can I go back to an email run I wanted to show you before the break of which I've managed now to find the reference it's ry d three zeros one one five seven
00:00:51 it's ry d three zeros one one five seven three which is an email chain this time from August 2014 and I'd like you to go to the it's page two of that email run
00:01:16 so only one
00:01:21 yeah and it's the one we looked at before the short adjournment and you
00:01:32 before the short adjournment and you received this although I can't show you the email chain in which you did and if you go to page three perhaps we can see a little bit more of this email this is
00:01:46 a little bit more of this email this is Janice Rae 8th of July 2014 - Claire Williams please see message below I'm sorry I'm taking this reverse order so you can see it comes which I've just
00:01:58 you can see it comes which I've just received from an lfb inspection officer who's received an email from Eddie to farm do we need to write to residents on the issue of fire safety during the works we could put something together to reassure them that there is still a
00:02:09 reassure them that there is still a statement strategy and reiterating the procedures they should follow works in hand to advance fire safety and the in the longer term etc perhaps this has already been done I need to respond to this man and would like to be able to
00:02:20 this man and would like to be able to emphasize what we've already done meetings letters etc please advise now what Janice ray gets is from been duis of the London Fire Brigade and we see that at the very bottom of page 312 page
00:02:31 that at the very bottom of page 312 page 4 dear Janice we just flick over to that and he's a dear Janice I received this email below from an Edward - fan who may be aware of you may be aware of who
00:02:43 be aware of you may be aware of who lives at Grenville Tower dear Ben please be advised that residents of Grenville tower are very concerned about fire safety after the recent closure of all land and rights-of-way to the west and north of grenfell tower we're also very
00:02:54 north of grenfell tower we're also very concerned that we have no idea where to assemble should there be a fire in Granville Tower as there is no open space in the vicinity that is available to our community please can you help ensure that the fire brigade will monitor the current changes on Lancaster
00:03:06 monitor the current changes on Lancaster West Estate that impact on our fire safety and could you also inform us where we should assemble in the event of a fire
00:03:13 a fire thank you for assistance with this matter kind regards Edward - phone grenfell Action Group and he goes on the contractor has contacted the local station to inform them of changes to access points and riser access this is
00:03:25 access points and riser access this is mr. DUIs now the local station are making arrangements to carry out a familiarization visit for local crews unfortunately it would appear the same courtesy has not been given to the residents to update them on their emergency procedures could I
00:03:37 on their emergency procedures could I ask what the measures being taken in regard to fire safety at the premises are during the refurbishment works I've read that all to you mr. Lawrence because one skips back back
00:03:48 mr. Lawrence because one skips back back up the email chain we've looked at before and we don't see it coming to you we do have an email where which we haven't disclosed which shows that there is a this comes to you so take it from
00:04:00 is a this comes to you so take it from me that it this does come to you in copy form or when forwarding form my question is do you remember seeing this email and this issue raised by mr. Devon and and
00:04:12 this issue raised by mr. Devon and and being discussed it within the TM oh I don't specifically remember mr. Devon raising concerned this I do remember
00:04:23 raising concerned this I do remember Shawn O'Connor doing exactly what I said he contacting the local station and then sending out three or four watches whatever they had or whatever they have
00:04:38 whatever they had or whatever they have over a period of days weeks to come and inspect the site and understand how they can access access to building and I remember also there being notices from
00:04:50 remember also there being notices from the TMO regarding the stay put right prior to this time so this is July 2014 can you tell us what consideration Ryden
00:05:02 can you tell us what consideration Ryden had given to informing residents about emergency procedures during the refurbishment the beds procedures that at that stage I'm not sure we had even started we were doing some enabling
00:05:16 started we were doing some enabling works with a tent in the TMI office and other buildings I'm not sure if we'd actually started on the site per se and changed any of the changed anything that
00:05:27 changed any of the changed anything that they were already doing in the way they were already managing the building so and do you remember whether you took any action in response to the concern raised by mr. dearest passing on in turn mr. de Fonz concerns well we had if we had the
00:05:40 Fonz concerns well we had if we had the fire brigade like say we had the fire brigade did their part and they came down and inspected I think there's correspondence now with every way of a newsletter or AE
00:05:51 now with every way of a newsletter or AE or a posters part by the team oh there was correspondence with the residence at the time
00:06:01 the time I think that was TM OLED actually
00:06:11 now can I ask you to look at a document from the next year 2015 this is TM au double zero eight five two eight seven please
00:06:42 there's double-0 TMO double zero eight five two eight seven
00:07:01 right it's in the false reference
00:07:13 do you remember from your own recollection going to a meeting in the July of 2015 with Peter Madison and Grenville tower residents relating to
00:07:25 Grenville tower residents relating to the residents concern with the refurbishment process I remember there being a meeting whether it was that time and all that yes yes sir do remember be amazing yes yes I was going to ask you
00:07:36 amazing yes yes I was going to ask you questions from a document but I think I can do it without before that meeting do you know what process was in place the resident for residents to raise complaints about fire safety in respect of the refurbishment well we the process
00:07:50 of the refurbishment well we the process we set out previously they they had the contactors contact us via the via recently as offices they could also
00:08:02 recently as offices they could also contact their their housing officers which we know nearby building yes can I ask you then to look at the document which is TM double zero eight
00:08:13 document which is TM double zero eight five two eight seven one
00:08:23 and this is the document I wanted to show you a minute ago just puts it in time and it's a letter to the residents and if we can just look at a page - we can see at the end of the letter and we
00:08:35 can see at the end of the letter and we can see who it comes from it comes from councillors Robert Atkinson and Judith Blakeman from the knotting day award and I just wanted to look at page two with
00:08:46 I just wanted to look at page two with you individual matters and complaints can you see at the top of that page the DMA stressed the need to discuss the detailed implications of how the works can be carried out in each fad individually with residents owing to the
00:08:57 individually with residents owing to the different circumstances in each flat refusing to allow them in is not helpful residents made strong points about the TMO and Ryden giving conflicting information and misleading different householders they objected to being
00:09:09 householders they objected to being picked off individually some writing workers were being very aggressive and threatening towards them just pausing there do you remember the complaints of
00:09:21 there do you remember the complaints of this nature arising from residents saying that TMO and Ryden were giving conflicting information have you seen this document it's not one I recall but
00:09:33 this document it's not one I recall but all right can you help us with the objections being picked off individually did write and have a process of picking off individual residents and dealing them what about the TMAO did they some
00:09:45 them what about the TMAO did they some writing workers were being very aggressive and threatening towards them no we saw something of this in one of the earlier documents today clearly this was a concern serious enough for grenfell residents to raise with these two councillors and they thought it was
00:09:57 two councillors and they thought it was serious enough to raise formally was this was this matter addressed with you yourself at the time I don't remember you don't remember do you remember
00:10:08 you don't remember do you remember nothing at all about complaints that ridings workers were being very aggressive and threatening towards not specifically nice I mean generally in general terms nice
00:10:20 no not really nice all right complaints although riding are available to receive complaints the TMO is not and it is difficult sorry is not and it is difficult to raise this is with them
00:10:31 difficult to raise this is with them opposing there do you remember yourself somebody complaining to you that the TMO was not available to receive complaints nice but then I wouldn't be the first point of
00:10:42 then I wouldn't be the first point of call for right and so right and then it goes on the TMM out of our service is a disaster residents have reported on many occasions when lifts are not working without response when the water was turned off no water bottles or other
00:10:53 turned off no water bottles or other arrangement was offered to effect households there is a need for both the TMO and Ryden to treat residents with proper respect engage with them properly and apologize when an apology is justified mr. Madison said he was at the
00:11:04 justified mr. Madison said he was at the meeting to apologize on behalf of the TMA when services are not working all things go wrong do you remember anyone raising with you or you becoming aware of than any need for riding to treat residents with proper respect and engage
00:11:16 residents with proper respect and engage with them properly and apologize when an apology is justified does that ring a bell with you it doesn't ring any particularly oh no I would expect ride them to be treating residents with respect did you carry a record did
00:11:28 respect did you carry a record did writen that is carry a record of concerns raised by individual residents I think we covered this earlier in the hour Lowe's it's the are a lousy our lows of the
00:11:39 it's the are a lousy our lows of the first point of contact like I said though that they were effectively the customer service and just in the context of this document do you can you help us
00:11:50 of this document do you can you help us as to whether there was a system whereby any complaint that was made to ride and was shared with the TMO well there was meetings between the house and officers rig the rates through the housing offices and the than the average so I
00:12:03 offices and the than the average so I would imagine it was shared there right do you did you summon O'Connor may be able to assist with that can you assist I can't because I don't think I attended any of them did you ever see any records of those meetings I don't recall but there may be minutes
00:12:17 I don't recall but there may be minutes right did you would you have had occasion to see them
00:12:22 again and this there is a matter that couldn't be dealt with by Simon and the team on site then there now it would be by exception right d-did you or do you
00:12:33 by exception right d-did you or do you recall seeing a record of any specific fire safety complaints made by residents at this time or before or after no the the only world the only the only thing that I recollect was there was a comment
00:12:45 that I recollect was there was a comment about the when the because we had to reconfigure the access point or entry and access points to the building during a construction and there was a an issue
00:13:00 a construction and there was a an issue brought to us about the about the lifts going down to ground and in the case of emergency
00:13:08 emergency so I believe we deal with that I can't believe how we dealt with that I believe we deal with that at the time that's all I can remember do you remember whether any action was taken in response to the matters that were raised at the meeting of the 11th
00:13:19 were raised at the meeting of the 11th of July I don't really remember them but I'm sure there'll be a record somewhere right can I then go back to an issue I
00:13:30 right can I then go back to an issue I canvassed with you before the break about DDA's you remember seeing these minutes which referred to the potential engagement of a DDA advisor what input I
00:13:45 engagement of a DDA advisor what input I know you didn't engage one but what input would a DDA expert have on to the on to the plans of the lower floors if there is any need for DDA compliant if
00:14:03 there is any need for DDA compliant if the TMO had a a particular resident I had in mind going there that they did any special measures installed they
00:14:15 any special measures installed they could help advise on that right it would it therefore have being normal for a DDA adviser to comment on and make recommendations as to access and egress
00:14:26 recommendations as to access and egress for wheelchair users I mean we never used a DDA consultant previously so so I can't really coming well I write so therefore you couldn't help me with
00:14:37 therefore you couldn't help me with whether they would make recommendations about how to cater for residents with limited mobility or with impaired vision on matters of that nature which might impede their escape in the event of a
00:14:48 impede their escape in the event of a fire I would assume so but I don't know I see
00:14:54 I see did the TMO give you any detailed information that any of the flats would be used or occupied by residents with
00:15:07 be used or occupied by residents with mobility issues or vision difficulties or matters of that nature which would impede the escape in the event of a fire I think at the time of me leaving the project don't think anybody was aware
00:15:21 project don't think anybody was aware which particular residents or fade it can be chosen who was gonna go into what flat I don't know did you ever at the time have enough information about the I
00:15:32 time have enough information about the I was going to say the profile of the residents in the building but but their specific mobility issues or vision issues or matters of that nature personal to them which would enable you
00:15:43 personal to them which would enable you to make a decision as to whether you should retain adda expert to assist you or the only information we'd have got was what the Arlo's head
00:16:01 we discussed the question of rebel residence earlier on an expression I think you used in one of your emails and you referred to a small group of vocal residents and you named one instead of
00:16:14 residents and you named one instead of fun can I ask you were the residents of flat one to two people who you would have regarded as vocal had Miss Williams
00:16:26 have regarded as vocal had Miss Williams told you anything about the Grenfell tower leaseholders Association and the residents associated with it I think we knew they were lip balm and I think we knew they'd release holders in the
00:16:37 knew they'd release holders in the building I couldn't tell you how many but yes we knew that lease holders involved the building yes miss Williams tell you anything about to them about their attitude about the addition that they took as a group that record
00:16:49 they took as a group that record anything specific I'm going to ask you some questions now about class the board a slightly different topic you we discussed it earlier on I think in the context of a substitution
00:17:03 context of a substitution are you aware about the combust ability or limited combust ability characteristics of plasterboard mr. Lawrence I would say it would be it
00:17:17 Lawrence I would say it would be it would be good in its used for fire rating walls and ceilings and so so yes yes when he would be right about that
00:17:28 yes when he would be right about that were you familiar with a db2 part 9 or section 9 point thirteen which says in terms that cavity barriers in a stud wall or poor partition were provided
00:17:41 wall or poor partition were provided around openings those are the critical words may be formed of cement based or gypsum-based boards at least 12 millimeters thick we familiar with that as a principal sorry can you repeat yes
00:17:57 as a principal sorry can you repeat yes the cavity barriers in a stud wall op or partition or provided around openings may be formed of cement based or gypsum-based boards were you familiar
00:18:10 gypsum-based boards were you familiar with that yeah my doing partition is generally yes you all right did anybody within ridin all the contractor chain or the wider
00:18:22 the contractor chain or the wider refurbishment team discussed the possible additional benefit to fire protection of adding a layer of plaster board to wear it specific well around the windows and start with that not from
00:18:35 the windows and start with that not from a fire point of view now right anywhere else no no yeah is there any reason why you didn't insist on using plaster board and let s D plastering revert to using
00:18:47 and let s D plastering revert to using you PVC trims backed straight onto combustible insulation there's no so you
00:18:58 combustible insulation there's no so you didn't say to st plastering well actually we should use plaster board because it's less combustible than you PVC let's go with that you didn't know I didn't wear of the of the at the time of
00:19:12 didn't wear of the of the at the time of the regulations around that we were looking at a purely aesthetic trim to the inside of a window was there any stage in the refurbishment process that you examined yourself or
00:19:24 process that you examined yourself or with others the question of fire safety at the conjunction of materials being used so for example the conjunction of the uPVC reveal with what was behind it
00:19:40 no but I would expect any cavity barriers to be dealt with as part of the external envelope and within cavity I
00:19:52 external envelope and within cavity I saw them as two separate items I just want to ask you a question about dry risers a short question I think can
00:20:08 dry risers a short question I think can you ask can you please go to paragraph 62 of your winter statement page 13
00:20:24 and you are talking there about the communal fire detection system and modifications made to the dry riser you
00:20:35 modifications made to the dry riser you see that yes and you say these modifications were minor and included small changes to the lower floor areas I understand that yes right salt clarification from Building Control call Hanson about whether the systems
00:20:46 call Hanson about whether the systems needed to be upgraded in line would build current building regulations Paul Hanson to confirm that as the height of the bill as the height of the existing riser was not being increased building
00:20:57 riser was not being increased building regulations did not require the risers to be brought in line with current requirements can I ask you then to look at a document jsw 4 zeros 2 5 3 8
00:21:18 and this is an email from Paul Hanson to david Bradbury on the 3rd of September 2014
00:21:26 2014 copied to you you see that yes hi David thank you for your email and then he says I note we are not increasing the height of the existing
00:21:37 increasing the height of the existing riser but we are adding two additional Falls at low level which were previously walkways we understand the existing riser is above the current permitted height of 50 meters we would therefore need to discuss the proposed
00:21:48 need to discuss the proposed modification and what measures we need to take to gain approval for the new system and then Paul Hansen says this sounds like a matter of control rather
00:22:00 sounds like a matter of control rather than a technical question I've spoken to John Hoban the area surveyor he would normally deal with matters on control and he agreed in this instance with my sending you this response essentially the building regulations cannot require you to
00:22:11 regulations cannot require you to improve the system to serve the existing floors over 50 meters the regulations only apply to the work being carried out and additionally you must not adversely affect the existing building if this
00:22:22 affect the existing building if this does not answer the question please give me a ring to discuss further do you recall receiving this email I recall the subject did you have any
00:22:33 recall the subject did you have any understanding about what mr. Hansen meant when he said that essentially the building regulations cannot require you to improve the system to serve the existing floors over 50 meters and that
00:22:45 existing floors over 50 meters and that they only apply to the work being carried out etc did you understand what he meant by that well I think he yeah I think he's saying as the is the height story increased he we can't enforce that
00:22:58 story increased he we can't enforce that they are upgraded to meet current race yes and and and what about what about when he says cannot require you to
00:23:09 when he says cannot require you to improve the system to serve the existing floors over 50 meters well did you understand by what he was getting at there
00:23:18 they exactly what he's he's saying really
00:23:22 really [Music]
00:23:24 [Music] you can't yeah building reefs you don't need to improve the system and bring them up to current regulations do you know what steps if any ridin took or its
00:23:37 know what steps if any ridin took or its contractors took to prevent the building from being adversely affected by alterations to the dry riser I think there's probably a technical question
00:23:48 there's probably a technical question for Joe's right are the thorns and specialties do you know can you help us with it no I don't know no in your statement you've summarized the advice I
00:24:00 statement you've summarized the advice I think I showed you as the building regulations did not require the risers to be brought in line with the current requirements do you agree with that that summary doesn't accurately reflect the email correspondence at least as we see
00:24:13 email correspondence at least as we see here I agree with that he's yes is there no further there's no further emails relating to that me now
00:24:24 further emails relating to that me now I'm going to go to another topic which is quality control generally a Triton
00:24:36 can I ask you to turn please first to a RT 4:03 76 - this is a minute of a progress briefing number nine 17th of March 2015 you were present as with
00:24:49 March 2015 you were present as with Claire Williams and David Gibson from the TMO and we could see from point one point one Neal Reid introduces himself to everyone as he will now be taking over the project and Philip booth that's within Artie Lea and if he gave page
00:25:01 within Artie Lea and if he gave page four of the minute let's look at item 11 point one three together please at the bottom under AOB
00:25:17 and we could see their clock of works
00:25:25 nr noted that from reading the latest report dated 2nd of March 2015 there appeared to be the opportunity to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the quality inspection controls and
00:25:36 of the quality inspection controls and processes in place see that do you recall that suggestion I do recall the subjects now believe it yes do you know
00:25:50 subjects now believe it yes do you know what prompted mr. Reid to make that remark I think the I think the clerk of works probably probably more the
00:26:03 works probably probably more the building side of clock works rather than the mechanical electrical side of building the clerks were I think turning up for more of an ad hoc basis and it's
00:26:16 up for more of an ad hoc basis and it's best to get it in line with them not only seeing works as they're progressing but also seen works ready for them to inspect if we look at a RT full zero six
00:26:29 inspect if we look at a RT full zero six six four one please six six four one and page 2 in that document look at the bottom of page two there we will find an email from Matt Smith of max Fordham of
00:26:42 email from Matt Smith of max Fordham of the 17th of March 2015 to Claire Williams you see that copy to mr. Reid and so mr. Campbell at max fallin knock not copy to you but I just want to ask
00:26:53 not copy to you but I just want to ask you about it and it concerns the provision for disabled access for accommodation and it says afternoon Claire we've been around the houses with this a bit already but it seems to be there appears to be some confusion with
00:27:05 there appears to be some confusion with Jase right straight right and so would you be able to explicitly state which flats the TMA requires to be lifetime homes compliant which whether these flats are to be fully compliant ie mid-level T RVs consumer unit etc which
00:27:18 mid-level T RVs consumer unit etc which flats is disabled access and what requirements the TMO has for it LS t radiators etc now you go up the page to the top of
00:27:31 now you go up the page to the top of page 2 we can see Miss Williams responds this actually starts at the bottom of the previous page Matt I think if Ryden do not know what is in the contract they should raise as an RFI so there could be
00:27:42 should raise as an RFI so there could be a formal response within a time frame this is the easiest way of dealing with these issues that come up informally as they seem to be on the increase you see that in your role as contracts manager were you aware that the TMO your client
00:27:55 were you aware that the TMO your client at this time thought that Ryden might not understand his contractual obligations she's clearly saying if riding Devils in the contract they should raise an RFI does that come as a surprise to you or
00:28:07 does that come as a surprise to you or did that come would that come as a surprise to you to be told that Claire Williams thought that ridin might not know what was in the contract yes I don't think it was raised with us if you
00:28:19 don't think it was raised with us if you look at page 1 we could see a response from Neal Reid and he writes to Claire Williams and max Fordham and he copies this to Nick Valenti at RT Lea as well
00:28:32 this to Nick Valenti at RT Lea as well as mr. Campbell at max Fordham and he says supported I've already asked for an IRS from riding in this week's progress meeting and a separate meeting is being arranged for next week to explore this and the status and other information and
00:28:44 and the status and other information and decisions that are required for this project do you remember that you remember this issue being raised in a progress meeting at that time I don't remember it specifically P but yes I'll write he then goes on Matt I appreciate
00:28:57 write he then goes on Matt I appreciate he says we haven't spoken yet but looking forward to working with you and introducing some improved discipline by writing to the resolution of queries decisions etc what D what lack of
00:29:15 decisions etc what D what lack of discipline do you think he might have been referring to at that time do you accept that it was your responsibility to maintain the discipline in relation
00:29:28 to maintain the discipline in relation to the resolution of queries and decisions
00:29:32 decisions it was the team's yes say if there had been
00:29:36 been in discipline that it had required improving in those areas by ridin that would have been your responsibility overall yes but it would depend on what discipline and the team would be
00:29:47 discipline and the team would be involved in that as well known D but in terms of in terms of responsibilities within right and if there had been a lack of discipline in relation to decisions and queries that would have been at your door yes can you clarify what what is meant by that is I'm asking
00:30:00 what what is meant by that is I'm asking the question in general terms yes there is an issue and this issue is one for you yes yes thank you now let's look at a RT four zero six six to nine this is
00:30:14 a RT four zero six six to nine this is an email from Neal Reed of RT Lea to Claire Williams and this is the 9th of April 2015 if we look at it together this is also a copy to Nick Valenti and
00:30:27 this is also a copy to Nick Valenti and Simon cash within RTV I again you don't see this and that's why I'll ask you I'll share to you at full and then ask you some questions about it he says thanks for your email of yesterday at suggesting a meeting to discuss RT Lea's
00:30:38 suggesting a meeting to discuss RT Lea's fee account I would agree we should meet and then he goes on to say I would just like to have proposed they brought a meeting objective and agenda for the following reasons with my limited involvement to date I hold a perception
00:30:50 involvement to date I hold a perception and it's underlined that one the scope of the work that riding is doing is not as well understood as it could be there is significant email traffic of what is considered to be in the contract to the
00:31:02 considered to be in the contract to the roles and responsibilities of all parties do not appear as clear to me as they could be processes for resident liaison Co EE that's Clarke of work scope architectural compliance monitoring for example three new risks
00:31:16 monitoring for example three new risks and issues are arising that need managing mitigating and for which financial provision is required in terms of build cost and it's consultant fee implications what I would prepare like to propose is a meeting on Monday xx 2
00:31:29 to propose is a meeting on Monday xx 2 p.m. and 5 p.m. at our hope and office meeting objective to review the contract documents and scope of works desired outcome clarity on what is and is not included in the contract and the implications of rising this would
00:31:41 implications of rising this would include twitchin Lim and Simon from Ryden both are available should you agree
00:31:49 agree did anybody at this time and we're looking at September 2015 raise with you the problem that mr. Reid had identified in paragraph one they're not
00:32:03 in paragraph one they're not specifically so I'm not sure which areas he's referring to I'm not sure where Neil came all we just seen it I'm not
00:32:15 Neil came all we just seen it I'm not sure where Neil came to take over and Philip both so it was obviously a period of catching up as well and I do recall he went to a meeting but I couldn't tell
00:32:27 he went to a meeting but I couldn't tell you the content of that you did go to a meeting to discuss these things did you I believe so yes they wasn't meeting again did you come to learn why mr. Reed
00:32:38 again did you come to learn why mr. Reed had the perception that he did as expressed in paragraph one there I don't recall what about it's you two he says the roles and responsibilities of all parties does not appear as clear to me as they could be did mr. Rhett mr. Reed raise that with
00:32:51 did mr. Rhett mr. Reed raise that with you at this meeting or at any other time I recall it was in the mating I just remember going to a meeting do you know whether there's a note of this meeting no I don't know if anything I would have
00:33:03 no I don't know if anything I would have thought would be minuted by I'll tell ya okay
00:33:11 is it fair to say that the party responsible for architectural compliance wasn't well understood now I think we'd well I think we understood the
00:33:24 well I think we understood the compliance so without having more specific information from near one can't
00:33:35 specific information from near one can't comment do you agree with his perception at the time that the process is for resident liaison were not well understood nice well not clear no but I don't know what part he's talking about
00:33:46 don't know what part he's talking about he's not clear he's got a specific part or whether he's talking in general no it's an impression he's giving quite clearly and I'm just wondering whether or not you could explain why you had that impression no what about lack of clarity about Co W
00:34:00 no what about lack of clarity about Co W scope can you can you explain why he had that impression Co W was was Klein points for the client so there's something for the t MA so no
00:34:12 so there's something for the t MA so no I don't know right and and do I take it similarly in relation to architectural compliance monitoring you don't know why mr. Reid had that impression right can I
00:34:23 mr. Reid had that impression right can I then ask you to go to an email a RT four zero six six five seven which is an email of 21st of April 2015 sent by mr. Valenti of RT Lea to Claire Williams and
00:34:36 Valenti of RT Lea to Claire Williams and this one is copied to you and to mr. Reid as we can see and this is after the meeting which you see had been arranged and you told us a minute ago you attended and it says thank you for
00:34:52 attended and it says thank you for coming to the meeting last Friday please see below a record of the key actions straik salient points meeting objective to review the contract documents and scope of works desired outcome clarity on what is and is not included in the
00:35:03 on what is and is not included in the contract and the implications are rising and then we see a long list over this page and the next lift av windows hiu and then it goes over on to page 2
00:35:14 and then it goes over on to page 2 please if we can we can see the rest of the list
00:35:20 cyclical decorations and external work see that yes does that email I know I've
00:35:31 see that yes does that email I know I've taken you through pretty quickly but does it reflect in general at least your recollection of what was discussed at that meeting I don't recall going I don't recall what
00:35:43 I don't recall going I don't recall what discussions were but I would say that that would that probably is a fair reflection yes yes I mean take time to
00:35:54 reflection yes yes I mean take time to look at it if you like whether you there'd be no reason for me to think otherwise do you accept that as contracts manager for this project it was your job to understand exactly these
00:36:05 was your job to understand exactly these things and be able to answer questions about them I was questioned about them now yes yes did it surprise you that you
00:36:21 now yes yes did it surprise you that you were being asked to go to a meeting to discuss with Artie Lea a review of the contract documents to give or assist in
00:36:32 contract documents to give or assist in obtaining clarity on what is and is not included in the contract no I think there probably was elements that needed clarifying between us and the team oh
00:36:45 clarifying between us and the team oh and and you know to understand what was him I wanted didn't want et cetera so so no do you know why it was necessary or Neal Reed thought it was necessary for
00:36:57 Neal Reed thought it was necessary for him to take this step to organize such a meeting over a year after Ryden was first appointed or at least told it had got the contract in mid March 2014
00:37:08 got the contract in mid March 2014 well I think you probably best asked Neal but Neal in my experience is a
00:37:19 a very good and very organized client p.m. so he obviously felt that was the best way to approach and deal with the
00:37:31 best way to approach and deal with the matters were you asked to take any steps after this meeting depending what's in the meeting notes if there's any any isomers for you to do yes that's a
00:37:42 isomers for you to do yes that's a that's a fair answer if you let me put the questions that are in a way that you could see the meeting objective and the desired outcome as a result of this meeting do you recall any particular steps that you are asked to take in
00:37:54 steps that you are asked to take in order to further the outcome desired not any particular steps right now I want to turn to a different topic and we're
00:38:05 turn to a different topic and we're coming quite close to the end now and to see you know where we are and the topic is responsiveness and management and control can I ask you to look at our yd3 zeros eight nine zero eight two this is
00:38:17 zeros eight nine zero eight two this is an email to you at the bottom of that page oh why D three zeros eight nine zero eight two from Neil Reed dated the
00:38:28 zero eight two from Neil Reed dated the 22nd of May 2015 and it's a copy to copy to Claire Williams and others within our tea Lea Simon following the progress meeting on Tuesday the 19th of May I set
00:38:39 meeting on Tuesday the 19th of May I set out below our frustrations with regard to ridings current performance on this project with specific reference to cost straight commercial matters and then he goes on to set out three issues below the apparent lack of Q s input lack of
00:38:52 the apparent lack of Q s input lack of response to queries or inquiries around new or additional work and progress meetings and valuations you see that yes
00:39:01 all these issues that he identifies were within your remate weren't they as looking as the project overall yes but
00:39:13 looking as the project overall yes but not don't manage the financial team but I so the queries would have been passed to the financial team and probably stayed yes
00:39:25 stayed yes at the time he expressed those issues did you consider them to be justified or unjustified I don't really be cold but they if they they're obviously rising I wouldn't
00:39:37 they're obviously rising I wouldn't expect an able to raise concern if there there wasn't justification but I don't recall them specifically it's kind of serious email this isn't it to get from
00:39:48 serious email this isn't it to get from your from the person carrying out the role of Q s or C DM coordinator at this stage setting our frustrations with
00:40:00 stage setting our frustrations with regard to current performance on the part of writin isn't it I think it was a CDN cold night I think it was the clients perfume any of that whatever role he particularly had it comes from Artie Lea he yeah there are in for
00:40:11 Artie Lea he yeah there are in for up-to-date financial information is for its how I read read them well he was setting out his frustration with regard to ride ins current performance and I'm putting to you that would be a serious email you take that serious would say I seriously and it says with specific
00:40:23 seriously and it says with specific reference to cost and commercial matters specifically yes and then we have the three items we've been through and did you take it seriously yes and I would have passed it on to from really Zack my
00:40:35 have passed it on to from really Zack my yard as demanding survived and Steve I'm sure yeah well we can see and I to be fair to you I haven't focused your attention on that them emails towards the top of the page what is it that is
00:40:46 the top of the page what is it that is what you did the same day you can see you passed it to Zach Maynard's copy to Steve Blake and and Zach may nod sent it to Adam Mario so it went up and across
00:40:59 to Adam Mario so it went up and across ridin did you yourself put your hands on these problems and seek to get to the bottom of of them within riding rather than simply passing them on to Zach may
00:41:10 than simply passing them on to Zach may not and Steve Blake
00:41:14 I think by passing them on to the appropriate people that had you know Zach some engine server so he's in control of the curious and the
00:41:26 control of the curious and the commercial team and Steve Baker's more director I think those dealing really and you told us an answer to a question
00:41:37 and you told us an answer to a question I asked not very long ago that this these three areas fell within your remit say if they felt within your remit can you explain why you did no more than passing them on to the people who you
00:41:49 passing them on to the people who you thought were the appropriate because of them okay I would need there has some post them up the chain to a director and I'm passing across to a mentioned surveyor will he do yourself do I can't I passed them across to those people
00:42:02 I passed them across to those people when we probably had a conversation about it but I don't recall right he continues at the bottom of page one the project is reaching a critical point where the scope of works required needs clarity and issues need resolving some
00:42:14 clarity and issues need resolving some of these require proactive effort on the part of Ryden to define and he gives you a list what was priced what the price assumed alms based on what the reality is on site what this means for the price
00:42:26 is on site what this means for the price how Ryden can ensure the scope of work required can be provided while remaining within the agreed price I think is an example about a radiator all of those items in that list were they covered by
00:42:42 items in that list were they covered by your one of the things that you were doing which was managing the financial risks of the project by recognizing and reporting the implications of any changes occurring during the contract
00:42:53 changes occurring during the contract but I I had overall I was there to deliver the contract overall but obviously I needed assistance by the
00:43:06 obviously I needed assistance by the different departments and I would need to default to the managers and the senior Manges of those departments to assist me yes
00:43:17 assist me yes did you follow up with them about what they were going to do in response to these I would imagine we had a conversation we would we had a weekly team meeting the head office or it was probably
00:43:28 the head office or it was probably discussed in but I don't recall right so you don't recall pursuing to satisfactory solution to your own satisfaction how these complaints were
00:43:41 satisfaction how these complaints were eventually dealt with within writing I don't recall how they ever dealt with no does that not rather tell us that in fact you didn't have your hands on the tiller in respect at least of these
00:43:53 tiller in respect at least of these three areas and the list provided by mr. Reed I think we if we have a meeting and we have an internal meeting a weekly internal meeting update and I've got managing surveyor and I've got a director who's senior to me in the
00:44:04 director who's senior to me in the meeting and have raised these these points I don't stand up what the outcome
00:44:17 points I don't stand up what the outcome was from that I don't recall looking at the next paragraph first main one on page two he says we would ask that right and step up their efforts to ensure that the team can respond to the needs of the project provide the complete DMV service
00:44:29 project provide the complete DMV service as required by our client and fundamentally provide proactive help and support in providing the information that is key to the clients ability to make decisions now that is let me put it
00:44:42 make decisions now that is let me put it this way when you read that were you putting it neutrally surprised that this very serious criticism was being made by
00:44:53 very serious criticism was being made by mr. Reed
00:44:58 well yeah I didn't feel we were
00:45:05 I think this is insinuating that the or the way it's being read and analyzed now is insinuating that the whole projects falling a passage for etc and I don't think that is the case but I think you
00:45:18 think that is the case but I think you probably will need to ask Neal that I think it's it's brought about by it pleased to be brought about by changes and some elements that need to be clarified between us and the client and
00:45:31 clarified between us and the client and for the reactiveness of us to respond to changes particularly when it comes to commercial aspects need to be improves I
00:45:44 commercial aspects need to be improves I think that's right did you understand what mr. Reid meant by the complete DnB service as required by our client in that context no did you
00:45:58 by our client in that context no did you ask him to clarify it oh I don't recall and he goes on currently issues are being raised effectively but they are not being concluded efficiently changes require
00:46:10 concluded efficiently changes require your cost input robust cost information and options are required and dialogue is necessary with the client our Q s and with the client's design representatives these are the prerequisites necessary
00:46:21 these are the prerequisites necessary for the client to make well-informed and objective decisions that in turn enable Ryden to progress the works diligently currently there is a fear that works could fall into delay because the client has not made decisions and issued
00:46:32 has not made decisions and issued requisite instructions the reality is that the client cannot make decisions without the cost information from Righton as the overall spend needs to be constrained within budget and then he
00:46:44 constrained within budget and then he says in the fourth paragraph from bottom the next paragraph I would be obliged if you could acknowledge this email and confirm ride ins plans for resolving this problem at the earliest opportunity I'm going to come back to that can i
00:46:56 I'm going to come back to that can i first take you outside this document to an email at a RT 5 s 4 0 is 6 7 1 1 please which is the email from her -
00:47:09 please which is the email from her - Neal Reid of the 2nd of June 2015 and she in the second email down on that page says to him subject grenfell Neal
00:47:21 page says to him subject grenfell Neal it was an interesting meeting this morning and picked up many issues I think since you started many issues have now been raised and require urgent attention there are still ongoing issues with the costs and getting quality
00:47:33 with the costs and getting quality information in a timely way from ridin which mean we may need to look at any areas of savings so that we keep within budget
00:47:39 budget I'd like to organize a sit-down session you see that now a question is in respect of the information ridin was providing to the TMO and indeed other
00:47:50 providing to the TMO and indeed other parties on the Grunfeld project to what extent were you content with the quality of that information I believe the quality was was fine there may have been
00:48:03 quality was was fine there may have been a lag we've and which is what new was raised with when the client requested changes or there were changes the contract with us providing financial
00:48:16 contract with us providing financial information quickly - did do your best of your recollection did claire williams ever raise with you prior to this email a complaint that she wasn't getting
00:48:27 a complaint that she wasn't getting quality information in a timely way if we look at a RT four zero six six nine six please we can see an email from Neal
00:48:40 six please we can see an email from Neal Reed - twitching limb at arteria so it's internal same-day second of June 2015 in which he asks it's the second email down on page one third paragraph he says how
00:48:53 on page one third paragraph he says how are we to go to get price certainty as it strikes me it's not an ins interest or priority to be diligent here did my question is did mr. Reed ever discuss that view that he's expressed there
00:49:05 that view that he's expressed there internally at artillio with you I don't remember it night can you how do you have any explanation yourself for why mr. Reed might have formed that opinion of writing no do you accept what he says
00:49:18 of writing no do you accept what he says that it wasn't Ryan's priority to provide pricing information diligently
00:49:24 I would've thought it was in our interest but I don't know what specific they're talking about and then heading
00:49:35 they're talking about and then heading of the email is the notes on the commercial review meeting 27th of May 2015 we discussed earlier and that comp as the context of what he's saying but can you help us with why can you help us
00:49:47 can you help us with why can you help us with whether you accept that it wasn't writers priority in that context to provide pricing information diligently which is the impression mr. reads clearly got right another document Oh
00:50:01 clearly got right another document Oh idea three zeros for four three nine sorry for four three four nine four four three four nine page two middle of page two please email from you 22nd of June
00:50:14 two please email from you 22nd of June 2015
00:50:15 2015 to James Clifton Zack Maynard attaching Andy Hanabusa's invoice for Stewart
00:50:26 Andy Hanabusa's invoice for Stewart Hannibal's management services you see that yes
00:50:31 that yes and it looks as if there had been a reduction but he was still on the site you see this first email on the top of page two you see that and then if you
00:50:42 page two you see that and then if you look at the page look at page one we can see mr. Blake emails you in response and only you it's the bottom of that page he
00:50:54 only you it's the bottom of that page he says the gift of timing this is burning a hole in our pockets can we reduce this to once a month catch up what did you understand mr. Blake to mean by this is
00:51:05 understand mr. Blake to mean by this is burning a hole in our pockets brightens pockets I would suggest that was I we were going over budget with the with Andy Stewart Hannah bus was a freelance
00:51:21 Andy Stewart Hannah bus was a freelance M&E specialist that we brought in to help the management team and I would surmise by that that we've allowed a time period Cory and a cost and
00:51:34 time period Cory and a cost and it's going over the budget loud right and what did you well that we could see the response in fact same day Steve not
00:51:47 the response in fact same day Steve not that I disagree with the fact Stewart is costing us money so probably over budget however it disappoints me the Zack has sent this to you without talking to me if I'd actually seen any budget for Grenfell in the last eight months at least then we may have been able to
00:51:58 least then we may have been able to manage this differently now that looks like a complaint to mr. Blake from you had you actually seen no budget at all
00:52:09 had you actually seen no budget at all for Grenfell in the 8 months prior to June 2015 I died I recall internally and I recall I would suggest I've not definitely hadn't seen them as
00:52:20 definitely hadn't seen them as frequently as I would have liked to us should have done so um on the face of it you are telling him that you haven't seen a budget for Grenfell in the last
00:52:31 seen a budget for Grenfell in the last eight months so that would be from October 2014 actually about the time you signed the contract with the TMO is that right I don't recall it but if that's
00:52:43 right I don't recall it but if that's what it says then what it is and you wrote it and so have you any reason sitting here now to think that that's wrong no would that be in accordance with your experience of these kinds of
00:52:54 with your experience of these kinds of refurbishment projects that you would sign the contract and as contract manager see no budget at all for a period as long as 8 months no I wouldn't
00:53:05 period as long as 8 months no I wouldn't expect not to see the budget - by this time you hadn't seen a budget for grenfell for 8 months did that not ring in an alarm bell with you in what respect well
00:53:20 the fact that you hadn't seen a budget in the last eight months would have been a serious matter wouldn't it because you wouldn't be able to keep tabs on the project and whether there any cost overruns well I would I would expect
00:53:34 Zach and his team again bear in mind we met weekly again would raise anything by exception so if there was any issues
00:53:45 exception so if there was any issues then it would be raised you were the contract manager on this project how can you account for not seeing any budget at all for a period of eight months I can't it's a pretty big lapse isn't it
00:53:56 I can't it's a pretty big lapse isn't it because you would have no control at all about cost overruns or programming sorry cost overruns or programming cost overruns let's let's stick with that cost overruns right okay but you
00:54:08 that cost overruns right okay but you have no you would have no control of cost overruns or indeed how the money was being spent on the project there is a team there still doing that as if it's a receipts you just been putting a drawer forgotten about it's being
00:54:19 drawer forgotten about it's being managed by managing surveyor of equal level and his team so but yes it would be preferable to see the budget yes preferable preferable you think it would be preferable I'm gonna suggest to you
00:54:31 be preferable I'm gonna suggest to you that it would be essential for any contract manager to keep absolute tabs on the budget on a regular basis throughout the life of a project surely I don't think it'd be absolutely essential quite as you're suggesting because we have other parts of the
00:54:43 because we have other parts of the department that deals specifically with the element so they would be reporting back to myself and Steve if there were any issues with that you say in your
00:54:56 any issues with that you say in your statement and I don't need to take you back to it at paragraph 14 the the contracts managers role in ridin and fall riding is to oversee construction projects from inception to completion
00:55:09 projects from inception to completion was it or essential in that role in overseeing this construction project to have your fingers on the budget it would
00:55:20 have your fingers on the budget it would be definitely be preferable yes and it should have happened yes right now you continue in this email at the moment we have a poorly performing site which is mainly but not totally caused by poor surveying and cheap incompetent
00:55:32 by poor surveying and cheap incompetent subcontractors cheap incompetent subcontractors who were they I think that's me just having a general bent right well who were they judging by
00:55:48 bent right well who were they judging by the tone of the thing I don't recall we don't know when you must have meant somebody you must have indicated a mr. Blake somebody when referring to cheap incompetent subcontract I don't know not named anybody in the email so I knows
00:55:59 named anybody in the email so I knows why I'm asking you see yeah well obviously I don't recall never call what gave you to think that your
00:56:11 gave you to think that your subcontractors whoever they were were cheap and incompetent I don't notice that I recall you say you don't recall it this was you having a vent yes so you
00:56:24 it this was you having a vent yes so you must have felt pretty worked up about it to be able to say things even internally this candid I'm just wondering why it is you can't recall probably abused about five years ago and I couldn't name you
00:56:36 five years ago and I couldn't name you who it's how am I obviously felt were cheap and incompetent when you say you have a poorly performing site in which respects did you did you think at the time the site was performing poorly I
00:56:47 time the site was performing poorly I think probably as it says there by the poor surveying I think we were probably and I'm guessing at least because I don't recall it's probably to do with
00:56:58 don't recall it's probably to do with orders and getting subcontractors on site in a timely manner given that your view at the time looking at this document was that you had poor surveying and cheap incompetent subcontractors can
00:57:09 and cheap incompetent subcontractors can you tell us whether you took any steps as a result to ensure that the quality was improved so that your subcontractors and surveyors however cheap might have might have acted competently obviously
00:57:20 might have acted competently obviously oh the conversation with Stephen I'm sure with Zack as well
00:57:30 can I go to another email Neal read this time to Claire Williams Arte four zero six six zero four this is now 17th of August 2015 halfway
00:57:45 this is now 17th of August 2015 halfway down that email and to be fair to you you're not copied in on this it's it's between Artie Lea and their client TM Oh Clara I've been to site today so I'm up to speed with item three
00:57:59 to speed with item three Simon Lawrence leaving in 12 weeks with no indication of contingency planning just just pausing there and we'll come back we'll come back to it actually when we see the next part and then 3/4 of the
00:58:10 we see the next part and then 3/4 of the way down you can see it says one ongoing delays what is being done to mitigate them and when will write and finish and then to continuity measures Reece aemon's departure cognizant that his last day as 23rd of October and there is
00:58:21 last day as 23rd of October and there is now sufficient evidence to indicate that completion will not be achieved on this date 3 resource levels I think Simon needs help with what appears to be an overwhelming volume of work to manage in the coming weeks do you accept that by
00:58:36 the coming weeks do you accept that by August 2015 Ryden was not committing sufficient resource to the ground fault our project
00:58:44 don't know a third resource had changed we'd have to look at the records I don't I don't recall the resource a change maybe people are left by then there were several people were left so and the team
00:58:56 several people were left so and the team the team changed throughout so maybe that's the reason
00:59:07 it's not quite a nonce to my question I'll just press you a little do you accept that by this time Ryden wasn't committing sufficient resource to this project
00:59:20 I don't know in what context and what resource were you talking about because I don't think the site team or the team as a whole had particularly changed so
00:59:33 right well if that's the case are you able to explain why again mr. Reid had the perception that he expresses here I
00:59:46 think you have to ask me all right now he thinks and says that you are or appear to be in need of help because you are dealing with an overwhelming volume
00:59:57 are dealing with an overwhelming volume of work to manage in the coming weeks as you write about that were you dealing with an overwhelming volume of work well there's always a considerate man at work to do yes did you need help and I was
01:00:09 to do yes did you need help and I was sorry I'm so sorry sorry and I was involved more from a hands-on point of view than probably you would expect a contracts manager and and
01:00:25 would expect a contracts manager and and obviously there was I don't know at that stage so that's August whether there was something particular program that starting that needed additional resource I don't recall did you need help okay
01:00:39 I don't recall did you need help okay we've always been welcome you say that you were involved more from a hands-on point of view than probably you would expect a contract manager does that not rather suggest that you are you were
01:00:50 rather suggest that you are you were actually under-resourced or short-handed so that you were doing rather more work than you would ordinarily expect
01:01:03 possibly possibly there was more being
01:01:08 don't know possibly there was more from a client perspective that needed attention and didn't would otherwise I mean it was it was a complex project so
01:01:20 mean it was it was a complex project so and there was a lot of change so it may be from that point of view if you felt that you needed help to do the things that you otherwise wouldn't do why didn't you go to the client and say can I please have an extra pair of hands
01:01:32 I please have an extra pair of hands because I wouldn't go to them I'd be gained internally too that would be for riding to be dealing with why didn't you do that because I felt like I was obviously doing my best to cope with it
01:01:45 obviously doing my best to cope with it we're always we're always under there's no time we're sitting there twiddling our thumbs doing nothing we're always under time pressure and volume of work
01:01:56 under time pressure and volume of work now item 2 as I read to you continuity measures reassignments departure cognizant that his last day as 23rd of October can you help us was
01:02:08 23rd of October can you help us was there a system by which you handed over you know to your successor given that you were going to be leaving on the 23rd of October yeah I served my I had three
01:02:20 of October yeah I served my I had three months worth of notice which I served and in that time period gradually Steve integrated into my rock take over my role and Dave used was
01:02:31 take over my role and Dave used was brought in as well was there a handover process by the fact of yes there was by the facts of Steve being on site and I can't tell you how many days a week but
01:02:42 can't tell you how many days a week but more days a week and and cheering the share of crazy taking over the workload so yes did you have a handover meeting with Steve Blake not one specific meeting but we had a meeting weekly from
01:02:54 meeting but we had a meeting weekly from the start of this we always had an update weekly for all the team's a head office with Steve so he was he was fully aware of the progress of the
01:03:05 was fully aware of the progress of the project from the very start so he was very yeah he was already very wearing up to speed but it was just a three months handover where he gradually got into the projects more what about David
01:03:17 into the projects more what about David Hughes did you have a handover meeting with David Hughes though Vertu's did the same but he took over more of Simon O'Connor's role rather than mine so Simon O'Connor I think it well had
01:03:29 so Simon O'Connor I think it well had left by then or around that time right so the gist I think of what you're telling us is that there was no specific handover meeting between you and either of those riding executives rather a
01:03:40 of those riding executives rather a process by which you they gradually became more involved over the over the period yes yes I see can I ask you to look at a RT for zeros six seven zero
01:03:53 look at a RT for zeros six seven zero six please and I'd like you to look at the top email there from John White 10th
01:04:04 the top email there from John White 10th of May 2015 now that isn't right it's actually an American dating it's the 5th of October 2015 - Claire Williams and we can tell
01:04:18 2015 - Claire Williams and we can tell that because the email to which it responds is date at the same day 5th of October 2015 and he says there hi Claire
01:04:28 tony is back from holiday now and we have arranged a view 136 then we will also view the other properties you've stated and we'll come back to you tomorrow is that ok just sent my report
01:04:39 tomorrow is that ok just sent my report not good reading I'm afraid Simon from ride ins needs to start handing over all the duties to his replacement ASAP and ride ins need to get the cladding contractor up to their labor immediately
01:04:53 did anybody raise these concerns as reflected in this email with you not I recall that John White would only be visiting site once a week once every two
01:05:06 visiting site once a week once every two weeks so he wouldn't he wouldn't see what handover was been happening or wasn't happening do you recall an SEO on site with the cladding contractor being
01:05:20 site with the cladding contractor being short-staffed or not having sufficient labor I think at that time it's it if the dates for any other way I think that is the time where Harley's were transitioning from one company to
01:05:32 transitioning from one company to another so it would seem correct in what he's saying that there may will be a dipping performance or dipping progress
01:05:43 dipping performance or dipping progress whilst they're changing from one company to another and how did you deal with that mr. Lawrence I didn't particularly he was with Steve at the time right
01:05:54 he was with Steve at the time right right why is that because I was leaving so I was a couple of weeks away from leaving I see so that time stever's was integrated and
01:06:09 so that time stever's was integrated and steve was picking up that transition from the from holy cow morning does that mean that as mr. Blake was doing more you were doing less yes what yes at the
01:06:21 you were doing less yes what yes at the on going stuff yes it was mr. Blake specifically engaged in the issue of ensuring that the cladding contractor at this time had sufficient labor yes they
01:06:32 this time had sufficient labor yes they would know all about the transition from one Harley company to another can we look at a RT four zero six six seven to please this is an email 9th of May 2016
01:06:45 please this is an email 9th of May 2016 so this is after you left grand for and you are I think unlikely to have seen this document but I just want to flag it with you he says in the second line this
01:07:00 with you he says in the second line this is just to flag that this is becoming a farce despite all our efforts to ensure a smooth landing I have to say I do not think I have ever worked with a contractor operating with this level of nonchalance we are all getting sucked
01:07:12 nonchalance we are all getting sucked into doing a far more than we ought to at this stage of the project I'm wondering if you need to write to the TMA to express our concern and what we are endeavoring to do about it additional site visits additional
01:07:23 additional site visits additional meetings endless emails on design related issues that don't concern us as Claire is the design lead etc challenging the contractor etc now up to the point at which you left on the 23rd of October 2015
01:07:35 of October 2015 so some eight months or so prior to this email to be fair to you is that a fair criticism of writing no I don't think so
01:07:46 criticism of writing no I don't think so had it had Artie Lea over TMO either of them ever accused you or right and generally to your knowledge of nonchalance no can I ask you to go to
01:07:57 nonchalance no can I ask you to go to our yd three zeros for two zero nine one please email 20th of May 2015
01:08:09 so a year before while you are on the project and it's from you to Simon Eyre Conor and Daniel's good and you're forwarding to them an email exchange
01:08:21 forwarding to them an email exchange between yourself and David bris ndon who we discussed I think a day or two ago and you say in the second paragraph
01:08:33 and you say in the second paragraph there I've told them about our quality procedures which we should be carrying out whilst we always do this we aren't always the greatest on-site at keeping all of the records in this case we need
01:08:44 all of the records in this case we need to be spot-on in case the funders required at the end in order to release funds see there is it fair to say there even you acknowledge that ridings quality control was lacking at least in
01:08:55 quality control was lacking at least in the respect you identify there I think that reads is keeping as in long term the records as opposed to not doing them
01:09:07 the records as opposed to not doing them and would it be fair to describe writers attitude about record-keeping on-site at the very least as nonchalant
01:09:20 can I ask you some questions mr. chairman I'm two topics short of completion they're short topics it might be convenient to take a break now well
01:09:32 be convenient to take a break now well we're gonna have to have a free we're gonna happen exactly all along anyway we are how long will it take you to finish about 20 minutes I would say no I appreciate that not only slightly longer
01:09:43 appreciate that not only slightly longer than I at least told the Whitman let me just ask you this Lawrence when mr. millet gets to the end of his question which he says will take 20 minutes we shall have to have a break
01:09:56 20 minutes we shall have to have a break anyway so that he can consider whether there anything there's anything that's been left out or perhaps to consider potential questions from other people who aren't in the room at that point
01:10:07 who aren't in the room at that point we'll probably have to have at least 15 minutes 20 minute break would you feel comfortable going on for another 20 minutes and then having a longer break or do you feel you like whichever suits
01:10:21 or do you feel you like whichever suits you sure yes when that case mr. millet I would think it'd be better if you got at the end of your question since you I do I'm very happy to do that and now I want
01:10:32 I'm very happy to do that and now I want to ask you about building control and first of all the topic of workshops now mr. Crawford told the inquiry and I'm gonna give some references I'm gonna I'm
01:10:43 gonna give some references I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you what he said but if you want to see the transcripts we will dig them out and put them up on the screen but on day 11 at page 14 line 2 mr. Crawford said that you that he said
01:10:54 mr. Crawford said that you that he said we'd that's studio II the very least had workshops on site with Building Control and one of the things we discussed was the cavity barrier strategy and then day
01:11:06 the cavity barrier strategy and then day 11 page 14 9:20 he says what would happen is you would have the design team meeting then Ryden would bring in either Harley and or Building Control and you would have a sort of workshop off the back of it let's say and then on day 11
01:11:19 back of it let's say and then on day 11 at page 15 line 11 he said also ridin was having separate meetings with Building Control so whether I ended up just sitting there in those it's very difficult to affinity to say when all of them were
01:11:30 them were now pausing just there do you remember having workshops as he described them with Building Control in which the design for Grenville tower was discussed I remember building a child come to saw
01:11:43 I remember building a child come to saw it yes and and cereal table to discuss plans designs etc yes did you have these workshops as mr. Crawford describes them without studio II there at any time I
01:11:54 without studio II there at any time I don't recall goe not being there but I keep yeah I could be saying corrected but I don't recall that but building a trial would obviously turn up to site will be
01:12:08 obviously turn up to site will be invited to decide to come inspect the work so unless I see okay and he referred to them as workshops and we're these prearranged brainstorming sessions
01:12:19 these prearranged brainstorming sessions where you would talk about problems or were they inspection occasions the workshops I believe he's referencing or where we would have the design team and then building patrol would then join to
01:12:34 then building patrol would then join to discuss things like the fire barrier conversations we we went through earlier and now can you remember appreciate this a long time ago when the first of the
01:12:46 a long time ago when the first of the so-called workshops happened they always know roughly even a date range would be helpful
01:12:55 helpful well yeah it'd be obviously after the application we need to building a troll so the last quarter of 2014 right maybe
01:13:09 so the last quarter of 2014 right maybe how regularly do they occur do you remember we've built in control I think it was Azzam as and when there was a specific topic to go through were records taken of these so-called
01:13:20 records taken of these so-called workshops or meetings did you observe records being taken of them
01:13:28 I don't recall did you take any of yourself I may have taken I might have taken him written notes but they're not funny Morton right
01:13:41 mr. cluck sorry can I just said to that generally anything coming out of meetings like that if there weren't actual minutes generally they'll be clarified by email by one of the parties
01:13:54 clarified by email by one of the parties and do you remember who from Building Control attended it would be John Hoban and I think Paul Henson did as well anybody from Harley do you remember yeah
01:14:05 anybody from Harley do you remember yeah it would have been who was that I'm guessing now it will be you don't guess if you can't remember you guys because I couldn't tell you specific names like mr. Crawford said in some instances it
01:14:18 mr. Crawford said in some instances it was Ray and Ben those are the Bailey's and sometimes Kevin that would say Oh Kevin lamb yep that sounds great
01:14:34 did Ryden orchestrate those meetings where you was riding and specifically you the person who actually organized them I don't know if it was me or Studio
01:14:45 them I don't know if it was me or Studio E or Hartley's potentially it could be any of the three parties to your understanding where they arranged with building crowd control as a way of resolving issues with the design of the
01:14:56 resolving issues with the design of the cladding package if holies revolved in yes I would assume so was there any discussion at these meetings about the
01:15:08 discussion at these meetings about the materials that were being used on the building I would have thought so but I'm assuming because I can economical what they're and specifically I was going to ask you specifically in respect of the
01:15:19 ask you specifically in respect of the materials to be used in the cladding system again I would I would assume so if it was I a cladding specific meeting but do you remember whether any drawings
01:15:31 but do you remember whether any drawings were examined at those meetings again I would expect there to be yes but I would expect it yeah yeah mr. Crawford's
01:15:45 expect it yeah yeah mr. Crawford's recollection is that you mr. Lawrence orchestrated those meetings he's clear about that can you help is he right I think I think between all parties if there was I it would be flagged from
01:15:57 there was I it would be flagged from Hartley's end or studio a probably hard as if we talk about cladding that there was some advice needed from Building Control yeah it may
01:16:09 needed from Building Control yeah it may well in him myself or Simon O'Connor that made a phone call or sent an email and and arranged for them to be on site we may have arranged them to be the same time as when there would be a inspection
01:16:24 time as when there would be a inspection of the actual building works as well can I ask you to look at mr. Crawford's statement that se a30 is one for 275 at page 65
01:16:37 page 65 and I'd like to look with you please a paragraph 206 at the bottom of that page he says in the first line towards the start of my involvement in the project I
01:16:48 start of my involvement in the project I recall meeting John Hope and Building Control with Simon O'Connor ridin on site and he goes on to say this may have been during the week commencing 25th of
01:17:00 been during the week commencing 25th of August 2014 I remember that John was very clear about how he wanted information is sued if you just go over the page such as that he was specifically I'm sorry
01:17:12 that he was specifically I'm sorry yes that's right such as that he was specifically and primarily concerned with fire related matters and wanted a basic set of information so that he could then request further information if he required it so that he was not
01:17:23 if he required it so that he was not overwhelmed with this information now
01:17:29 you're not referred to there as being present at the meeting but do you remember the occasion of the meeting no not specifically mr. Crawford's recollection was that
01:17:41 mr. Crawford's recollection was that there this was a formal introductory meeting and that he specifically recalls sitting there and discussing the project with mr. Hoban and mr. Hoban inspected basic drawings and took them away he
01:17:52 basic drawings and took them away he also said and this Ferrara note rather than your benefit is day 11 page 139 line 25 Simon Lawrence almost certainly would have been at the meeting do you
01:18:04 would have been at the meeting do you remember that I would have been I would have expected to have been probably a majority of the meetings we building a trough but quite often John was working
01:18:18 trough but quite often John was working on the project next door as I think he chose on there so would often as he was in the area pop by pop into the side so I didn't see John
01:18:29 I didn't show him around site when those inspections I may have seen him once or twice but I I wouldn't because I wasn't on site all the time I wouldn't necessarily be there at the same time he
01:18:40 necessarily be there at the same time he was so do you remember attending a meeting with mr. Hoban in late August 2014 at which studio he provided mr. Hoban with design drawings of Grenfell
01:18:52 Hoban with design drawings of Grenfell tower and mr. Hoban took them away I don't remember that specific rating right
01:19:00 continuing with the topic of Building Control how do you ever work with our bkc Building Control with any time prior to the Greenfield tower project no can I ask you to look at our yd 4 zeros 4 2 1
01:19:13 ask you to look at our yd 4 zeros 4 2 1 8 this is an email from Steve Blake
01:19:26 to you and Zack may not 8th of May 2014 can I ask you to look at the bottom a little it's about clapping it's about
01:19:39 little it's about clapping it's about the face fixed panels and the fact that the planners remain to be convinced about rivets so that's where we are in that part of the story we examine that a couple of days ago but the bottom of the
01:19:50 couple of days ago but the bottom of the email Steve Blake says to UPS Claire mentioned Building Control submission as the department is swamped use someone else did you respond to Steve Blake do
01:20:01 else did you respond to Steve Blake do you think I don't think we've been able to track down a date once I don't record that comment I don't recall that email particularly to be fair all right do you remember having any discussions with Miss Williams on this topic at all did you consider
01:20:17 this topic at all did you consider appointing in a dependent Building Control inspector an AI not in no not a Grove Illinois and we Jim it to be fair we unless not so we never did but we
01:20:31 we unless not so we never did but we generally when you're working for local authority would appoint their local authority Building Control as well did do you know who made the decision as to which building control inspectors to use
01:20:44 which building control inspectors to use so to speak no I don't remember the specific decision I think it was always assumed that our bkc Building Control
01:20:57 assumed that our bkc Building Control would be used yeah would it be more expensive to use an approved inspector as opposed to using our bkc building control
01:21:12 did you look into it no no ry d30 is 1 6 969 please this is an email of the 2nd
01:21:24 969 please this is an email of the 2nd of September 2014 where mr. Crawford emails you and he says Simon Paul is a fire engineer and best place to answer questions regarding the dry riser and a Ovie's John Obon won't be able to
01:21:36 Ovie's John Obon won't be able to provide any answers on his own and tends to refer to Paul all the time which can be frustrating when he want answers from that email do you remember whether you drew any conclusions about John havens competence
01:21:48 conclusions about John havens competence with respect to fire receive now he just showed that he would default to he's far engineer so from your experience of your work on Granville tower are you now in a
01:22:00 work on Granville tower are you now in a position to agree with Neil Crawford's assessment of the relationship between John Hoeven and Paul Hanson that he expressed here John wood and I think
01:22:13 expressed here John wood and I think there are other emails that probably sits out which parts the building pool would look at which parts building John would look at but yeah John would consult with Paul my belief is John
01:22:24 consult with Paul my belief is John would consult with Paul as the fire engine on fire related matters now when Ryden came on as a designer and builder into the project did you yourself take
01:22:37 into the project did you yourself take any steps to find out what contacts to do II already had within our bkc Building Control I recall the name John Allen but I can't remember quite what we
01:22:48 Allen but I can't remember quite what we did or didn't do were you aware of any pre full plans application submissions to Building Control nice I think they'd been some preliminary work
01:22:59 preliminary work [Music]
01:23:01 [Music] right a troll were you aware that Studio II had not by the middle of 2014 provided Building Control with any detailed information about the cladding
01:23:12 detailed information about the cladding design by the middle of 2014 yes because exciting design when it wasn't completely foil it so there's the answer to my question you were aware that they hadn't provided any detailed information
01:23:24 hadn't provided any detailed information correct even if it wasn't completed correct
01:23:28 correct can I ask you to look at our yd 4 zeros 1 2 5 0 2 I just want to ask you about the full plans application this is an email from mr. stones to mr. Allen of
01:23:39 email from mr. stones to mr. Allen of our bkc of the 17th of July 2014 to it you were copied and
01:23:57 if you look at I think we may need the second page actually this is from mr. Crawford I think it is it's the one I
01:24:11 Crawford I think it is it's the one I want is on the second page in fact
01:24:18 yes
01:24:21 now this goes back to the January 2014 and that's where it starts but if you go to page one
01:24:34 just want to look at the exchanges on the 17th of July John Hoeven writes to Neil Crawford CC Paul Hanson Neil please find detail to below the last emails I
01:24:47 find detail to below the last emails I have in my possession related to the ground filter project and there Neil Crawford to John Hoeven by way of response the same day copied to mr. sands and mr. Lawrence John thank of
01:24:58 sands and mr. Lawrence John thank of York for the correspondence I understand from Bruce that the value of the project currently sits at eight and a half million pounds following the submissions of an agreed fee shedder for the next phase stroke approved Inspector stage of the project I agree it would make sense
01:25:09 the project I agree it would make sense to sit down at the earliest convenience to review where we're going forward Neil so it is it is a Crawford Norma Saenz email and you got that at the time so
01:25:22 email and you got that at the time so you were aware is this right you were aware at the time that that at this point it was important for the project architect and Building Control to look
01:25:33 architect and Building Control to look together as it were where we are going forward yes and then if you look at the next document the esier five zeroes 175
01:25:47 next document the esier five zeroes 175 this is an email of the 24th of July 2014
01:25:55 this time from Bruce sounds to John Allen copy - Neil Crawford an you John further Vanille Crawford's email a week ago my earlier call please could you get in touch to discuss Building Control
01:26:06 in touch to discuss Building Control fees for the above projects we understand the clients budget is eight and a half million pounds the application will be made by the design and build contractor Ryden who are on site studio either point has been their
01:26:17 site studio either point has been their beta - right now we will be leading on gaining approval the fire strategy was a tricky subject and we would like to engage on this as soon as possible now by the time these emails had been sent
01:26:29 by the time these emails had been sent riten had been the design and build contractor all they're not formally contracted yet that didn't come to October but for about three months and I think it's right that you didn't
01:26:41 and I think it's right that you didn't sit down at this point with our bkc for a review of where we're going is that right correct and if you go to the next document se a for 3 zeros 1 1 3 9 8 a
01:26:54 document se a for 3 zeros 1 1 3 9 8 a little bit later in the month July 2014 this one 29th of July SCA 3 zeros 1 1 3 9 8 yes Bruce signs to Zack Maynard and
01:27:06 9 8 yes Bruce signs to Zack Maynard and you've copied Anil Crawford seen Oakland Building Control on the fee and then in the last paragraph he says we want to set up he wants a set of drawings to accompany the submission but it probably
01:27:17 accompany the submission but it probably makes sense to hold on to the drawings till we have confirmation on the flats and ground-floor changes whether you got this email did you take this as a studio advising you not to submit drawings with
01:27:28 advising you not to submit drawings with the full plans application form do you think I don't think we would have submitted to fall I think that would have actually been done by Studio E I
01:27:41 have actually been done by Studio E I think all we do is probably provide the fee a check all right but did you take this nonetheless as advice that the draw whoever's get was going to do the submission the drawings were not going
01:27:53 submission the drawings were not going to be submitted with the full plans application form yes I probably did did you agree with that well I think at the time there was still quite a lot of change going on and well you won't want
01:28:09 change going on and well you won't want to confuse Building Control by issuing a set of plans that two weeks later on would be out of date is it common or was it common in your experience for full plans applications to be submitted
01:28:20 plans applications to be submitted without any drawings is it is it common yes I don't normally submit them that I would have thought they would go with with some drawings whether it be full
01:28:33 with some drawings whether it be full plans or not but it would I think it would depend on what stage the design was at at the time can I ask you to look forward in time to a art e-40 672 to
01:28:45 forward in time to a art e-40 672 to please these are the minutes of the meeting of progress meeting number two 19th of August 2014
01:28:56 as you can see there and this is a meeting at which and you are not present but receive these minutes by for for information and if we look at item six
01:29:08 information and if we look at item six one on page three please we can see there that building control SL to confirm when he has a point of the building control regulator through the
01:29:19 building control regulator through the council now first of all did you do you remember seeing these minutes now by this stage this is 19th of August 2014
01:29:31 this stage this is 19th of August 2014 the full plans application had been submitted but do you remember whether Ryden had yet made direct contact with Building Control I don't recall but there is an email of
01:29:42 I don't recall but there is an email of me introducing as to it yeah sorry yeah it's it's it appears that you were going to confirm when you had appointed the building control regulator through the
01:29:54 building control regulator through the council so you say can we take it from that but even though the full plans application for not yet gone in you hadn't actually made the appointment as indicated there I think all that's all I
01:30:07 indicated there I think all that's all I would read into those minutes is that maybe as I wasn't in attendance Simon on wherever else didn't confirm that we'd already done that whether they yes
01:30:19 already done that whether they yes didn't confirm they did they were expecting me to confirm it that's right it's right is it right that at that stage 19th of August the plans had gone in but you had not yet a point to the building control regulator the plans had
01:30:33 building control regulator the plans had gone into building the trial but we did not yet appointed them is that sorry is that what you're saying yes that's what I'm asking you I'll have to look at the correspondence and I've got win the application for money and when the check
01:30:45 application for money and when the check winning etc I don't recall that time right all right 3rd of September 2014 ry d three zeros one six nine nine zero you emailed john hoeven
01:30:56 emailed john hoeven yourself to introduce yourself yep see that email you say yes I recall it you recall it we've looked today we have since we have
01:31:08 we've looked today we have since we have morning John we haven't been introduced properly yet but I am Ryan's contracts manager for the ground filter project that was the first contact I think you had with Building Control wasn't it yes I believe so and you refer in that email
01:31:19 I believe so and you refer in that email as you can see to a meeting on-site between John Heyburn and Simon O'Connor which presumably is the meeting that was referenced a few moments ago yes I was going to ask you that didn't did Simon
01:31:31 going to ask you that didn't did Simon O'Connor himself relay to you what had been discussed at that at that meeting I mean a mr. Crawford who calls you being present and you can't remember but did you do mr. Connor tell you what was discussed at that meeting he may have
01:31:43 discussed at that meeting he may have done at the time but I don't recall now do you know whether mr. Connor had said anything to mr. Hoban about whether the cladding system complied with approved document b i don't recall being told
01:31:56 document b i don't recall being told that and i can't imagine I think probably best to our Solomon I can't imagine that he would be Simon O'Connor would be stating there
01:32:10 then you go on to say in the email halfway down that first paragraph towards the right-hand side to be honest we would have liked to have got yourself on board earlier but there has been some
01:32:22 on board earlier but there has been some client design changes which we were hoping to confer before our application so as not to confuse this use in the future
01:32:28 future now I think you'd been saying internally that you were going to be getting building control on board from as early as June 2014 and can you explain the the time lag
01:32:44 only by the fact that there was a lot of changes going on and only exactly what I've said there I'm not sure the reference to June whether it said there was a date that had to be done by or
01:32:55 was a date that had to be done by or whether it was a comment in June that we would get building a trial board which yeah is exactly what happened once we knew what we were building we did we we didn't want to get building control on
01:33:06 didn't want to get building control on board before we actually knew what the scheme was gonna be finally comprised of yeah by this stage to do he had submitted the full plans application but no drawings or no detailed drawings okay because we were
01:33:19 detailed drawings okay because we were still I would suggest we were still going through the design process or changing windows and looking at everything else relating to that yes and I'm just really trying to suggest to you that
01:33:30 that Ryden were quite slow in getting to talk to Building Control and I want to know why that is I would disagree with that I don't think that's any any different in
01:33:41 don't think that's any any different in my experience to other contracts and and why would you want to bring somebody on board with the information you know it's going to change potentially a week or two weeks later or completely confuse things it just makes sense to work had
01:33:53 things it just makes sense to work had started on site by this stage haven't it certainly the enabling works the enabling works may have done yes were you under pressure to submit the full plans application form even there without the detailed drawings because
01:34:05 without the detailed drawings because work had started on site I mean we would be keen to be getting them on board as soon as possible but again we were waiting for the significant changes that
01:34:16 waiting for the significant changes that were brought about before we engage fully now se a30 is one one seven zero seven please this is 18th September 2014 when Neil Crawford emails you and he
01:34:32 when Neil Crawford emails you and he attaches well just wait for it to come up galloping ahead Neil Crawford 18th of September 2014 to you and he attaches some mo e means of
01:34:46 you and he attaches some mo e means of escape plans
01:34:50 and he says Simon not sure if you are aware of these building controlled preliminary observations that were made at the end of last year attached they
01:35:01 at the end of last year attached they raised a number of concerns in relation to additional doors stroke specification fire rating stroke venting they will also have ironmongery implications based on our experience at count where the press has dragged on over a long
01:35:13 the press has dragged on over a long period I'm keen to sit with John and Paul and go through these issues and clarify them all in order to eliminate risk and was this the first time you were aware of pre-application discussions between Studio E and
01:35:25 discussions between Studio E and Building Control it may have been nothing were you surprised the Neal Crawford was sending these comments nearly nine months after they'd been received - sorry - us yes I don't recall
01:35:44 received - sorry - us yes I don't recall my thoughts at the time but yeah I mean I really would call studio he had been novated after you had been appointed in the in the March of 2014 and yet here
01:35:57 the in the March of 2014 and yet here was mr. Crawford only sending you building controls preliminary observations made at the end of 2013 as late as the 18th of September 2014 were you surprised by that that you would
01:36:09 you surprised by that that you would expect them I don't recall my thoughts at the time on this particular one but you would expect them to be sent earlier unless they've been incorporated in the design they've been comments and incorporating
01:36:20 they've been comments and incorporating design and designers now up to date with the comments that have been mentioned previously did you get the feeling that the building control process was some way behind where it should have been at this stage given that at least the
01:36:31 this stage given that at least the enabling works had started on site I think I've probably refers to my previous answers about leading not to confuse building control
01:36:42 leading not to confuse building control and everybody else with set of drawings you know who's gonna be out of date ry d30 is 187 42 please 24th of September 2014 so about a week
01:36:53 24th of September 2014 so about a week later
01:36:54 later here we see Neil Crawford sending and he this is an email from Neil Crawford to
01:37:05 this is an email from Neil Crawford to John hope and copy to you and here we see him sending a zip file of building control sex and it's a series of strategy fire strategy drawings and we looked at this earlier in your evidence
01:37:17 looked at this earlier in your evidence did you agree with studio e in advance which drawings would be sent to Building Control do you remember no do you remember whether you check these drawings at the time no I would have been reliance to do a right were you
01:37:29 been reliance to do a right were you aware at this time and I think we looked at this earlier but were you aware at this time that the drawing still had the cladding panels labeled as zinc even though by this time a cm had been decided upon in principle now I did
01:37:41 decided upon in principle now I did notice it were you aware that studio we had not provided any details of the insulation that was to form part of the cladding in these drawings no all that
01:37:52 cladding in these drawings no all that studio he had not provided building control with the NV s specification no right now we know that in September 2014 in a document I'm not going to go to with you our bkc Planning Department
01:38:04 with you our bkc Planning Department approved the change from zinc to ACM would you as contracts manager Ryden have expected details of that change to be provided to Building Control itself I
01:38:17 be provided to Building Control itself I would expect the update the updated drawings to go to building a troll yes did you check to see whether they had been at that time no but I believe we did I think that was the process that we
01:38:29 did I think that was the process that we were
01:38:32 studio you were carrying out as that as the design process design development was was going through its development process because it wasn't all finalized at the start you would expect them to
01:38:45 at the start you would expect them to update drawings and pass them on to building the trailers it progressed right who had the principal liaison with Building Control to be right in or would it be studio II as far as designed in be studio a he as far as site inspection it
01:38:56 studio a he as far as site inspection it rewrite I see and are you aware of any register or tracker on the project that kept a record of which drawings were
01:39:07 kept a record of which drawings were sent to Building Control I don't believe they were from Royden that Albert expects you Joey to write Beast you know he treatment given what you've told us earlier in your evidence a number of
01:39:18 earlier in your evidence a number of times about write-ins reliance on Building Control in relation to compliance with statutory requirements can you explain why given that reliance there was no Building Control tracker
01:39:31 there was no Building Control tracker established that right and say that you knew or could tell if you wanted to know what drawings Building Control had been provided with that's a desk I'm not sure
01:39:45 provided with that's a desk I'm not sure riding I've never seen a Royden Building Control tracker that's normally correspondence between Building Control and the architect and and both keep
01:39:57 and the architect and and both keep record of what they require and what they need to be sent and quite often there's a fire on sight from Building Control that makes his comments and any
01:40:10 Control that makes his comments and any any queries relating to it so so does it come to this and even though Ryden was relying on Building Control to assist or
01:40:23 relying on Building Control to assist or advisors in relation to compliance matters you were riding was reliant on others to keep a record of what drawings Building Control had at any given time
01:40:35 Building Control had at any given time great
01:40:39 so in relying on building control you weren't to know what drawings building control had or hadn't without going to
01:40:50 control had or hadn't without going to other people Terrace just some questions about site visits were you present on site when I want to
01:41:03 were you present on site when I want to stop I've got one short topic to cover it really is part of it's part of the same run of document questions on site visit you right yes yes I appreciate on may be testing everyone's patience with
01:41:16 may be testing everyone's patience with these do you ever remember discussing the cladding works with mr. Hoban on site no so you don't have any
01:41:30 site no so you don't have any recollection of discussing the materials that were to be used in the traffic system on this tile with mr. Holman no I saw John when he comes to sign
01:41:41 no I saw John when he comes to sign specters I saw John very rarely on site it would be managed by solid O'Connor think can I ask you to look at our yd3 zeros nine four two one three at page
01:41:52 zeros nine four two one three at page six
01:41:58 this is David Hughes's statement to the inquiry he's going to be coming to keep evidence we expect next week now that at page six
01:42:08 page six he paragraph 26 he says that when he started on site he says I was informed by either Simon Lawrence or Jason north of the clerk of Works and Building Control had been up the masked climbers
01:42:20 Control had been up the masked climbers to inspect the cladding on a number of occasions that were happy with the quality of the installation do you recall having a conversation with David
01:42:33 recall having a conversation with David Hughes to that effect I don't recall that specific conversation but it would make sense that we'd as part of the handover we'd had that conversation or
01:42:44 handover we'd had that conversation or one similar yeah how did you know that if you did have that conversation which you can't rule out how did you know that Building Control was happy with the quality of the installation as he records because otherwise over recording
01:42:56 records because otherwise over recording comments with us and they would so site inspections Building Control turns out burn atoll has a look at a section of work and then they make comment either
01:43:08 work and then they make comment either in a register or a folder that's kept on site or via email to say if there's any areas of concern snags for a better word
01:43:21 areas of concern snags for a better word and works that needs to be Anita remedial works to be put right and then they would be they would then come back and inspect those works once they have been put right did mr. Hoban or anybody
01:43:34 been put right did mr. Hoban or anybody else from our bkc Building Control ever tell you yourself directly that they were happy with the cladding installation and its quality me directly notes our paths might've crossed a
01:43:46 notes our paths might've crossed a couple of times but I didn't show you John around the site mr. Lawrence you'll be glad to know that I've come to might the end of my questions for the time being and I'm going to ask the Chairman
01:43:57 being and I'm going to ask the Chairman to take a short break to see where other people from either behind me or or core participants generally have follow-up questions for you and so I can't let you quite go go quite
01:44:10 and so I can't let you quite go go quite yet I'm sorry but can we take a break at this point such a yes well we better have course for now I think so thank you very much
01:44:18 very much well mr. Lawrence I'm afraid it's not quite the end but we're gonna have to have a break now for the reasons which he explained we'll come back at 4 o clock please thank you and remember not
01:44:29 clock please thank you and remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence thank you very much
01:44:42 four o'clock enemies
02:00:00 emails piling in right would you like to ask mr. Lawrence come back is
02:00:29 right mr. Lawrence I'm straight ready let's go for it thank you yes right mr. Lawrence just a couple of follow-up questions first of all on flat 136 the
02:00:40 questions first of all on flat 136 the void you remember the discussion about the door closed oh yeah do you know whether there were any written records kept of something called toolbox talks where damage to this Court door closes
02:00:51 where damage to this Court door closes that might have been recorded I would expect it to be have been written records of toolbox talks yes but whether that was on there or don't I can I ask
02:01:06 that was on there or don't I can I ask you to look at our yd three zeros four nine four four four please which i think
02:01:17 nine four four four please which i think is the one we looked at earlier today referring to mr. de Fonz complained about the flat door of 136 being left open the per K being broken
02:01:29 now we've not been able to find any response from from you at all can you explain why there is no message or email in response to miss Williams's question
02:01:42 in response to miss Williams's question to you or request to you now it may be in verbal I don't know it may have been verbal I don't know what response there was right was there any agreement or
02:01:57 was right was there any agreement or arrangement by you Paul between you and the TM a whereby within backway the complaints like this you would not put them in writing but would deal with them
02:02:08 them in writing but would deal with them verbally there's no there was no agreement no what was there any understanding with the TMA that when he came to mr. de farm particularly complaints like this would be dealt otherwise than in writing there was no
02:02:20 otherwise than in writing there was no protocol for that can I ask you to be shown a document if different topic a document
02:02:27 document which is TMO double zero eight five two zero three eight now I asked you earlier
02:02:38 zero three eight now I asked you earlier on about whether TMA ever gave you any detailed information about whether the flats would be used by residents with things like mobility issues or impaired vision remember that discussion we had
02:02:49 vision remember that discussion we had yes and about I also asked you some questions about whether Ryden had been given enough information about the profile of the residents occupying the building and you I think said that I'm
02:03:01 building and you I think said that I'm summarizing the only information that Ryden had was what the RO those had and that there were meetings between our Ella riding our la's and timid housing officers so look please this document
02:03:14 officers so look please this document this is a minute note of a housing management liaison meeting between riding of the TMO of the 14th of November 2014 and because he was present mr. Connor was present and Maxine egg
02:03:30 mr. Connor was present and Maxine egg venerian of ridin Shaun Rumble and Claire Williams apologies from others you weren't there but I wonder whether you can help us with this item to you
02:03:42 you can help us with this item to you well first of all did you ever read the minutes of these meetings even though you may not have been present probably not I would probably again anything of concern would be raised by exception so
02:03:54 concern would be raised by exception so right can you explain why Simon O'Connor who was the site manager at this time was present at these meetings and not you
02:04:02 you there are saamne Connor was project manager because he was dealing with the project on a day to day basis project manager I see I thought it - to
02:04:14 manager I see I thought it - to residents profiling and you can see what it's said there and and there are some discussions about individual flats it's at Mi that's Maxine egg Bonetti 'n said
02:04:27 at Mi that's Maxine egg Bonetti 'n said they had 107 surveys the full spreadsheet needed to be okayed by Nikki before it can be passed to Siobhan this includes info on residents deemed vulnerable am i noted that flat 14
02:04:38 vulnerable am i noted that flat 14 requested
02:04:39 requested am I to get herself referred to RB Casey OTS and there's a phone number am i noted that flat 166 had a shower and asked for a bath instead SR to check
02:04:50 asked for a bath instead SR to check tenancy basis if new tenant or mutual exchange takes flat as seen am I noted that there are two Notting Hill flats and they had asked for formal information regarding the works MI to pass the details to CW SOC noted that
02:05:03 pass the details to CW SOC noted that flat 135 reported the break-in window historic ride and swap broken for one from void or flat one for five I've read that he had full question were you aware that a ride and resident profiling
02:05:15 that a ride and resident profiling exercise was an agenda item for these kinds of meetings I don't think I was aware right where you were where that a any kind of exercise included a
02:05:29 any kind of exercise included a collation by riding of information on individual residents deemed to be vulnerable I think a game simply best to
02:05:40 vulnerable I think a game simply best to ask Simon and or the are allows if you're speaking to them but the we would go round and what they would go round and meet all the residents to get
02:05:53 and meet all the residents to get contact details and to get any say any circumstances that might be relevant to the works or they may need assistance we'd offer assistance moving items if
02:06:07 we'd offer assistance moving items if somebody couldn't move items we'd offer assistance if there was a not if there was a decamp flat that was prepared so they could move out during the works during the day so that would be the
02:06:21 during the day so that would be the purpose of the Avalos going round speaking to the residents getting their information and obviously if there was any quite often residents of a suggest spoke to the Arlo's about more stuff
02:06:34 spoke to the Arlo's about more stuff than as anything to do with us and and we'd pass it back to the housing office if they didn't already know did you know that a full spreadsheet was being
02:06:45 that a full spreadsheet was being compiled by writing specifically Maxine Eggman Aryan and also Nicki Donnelly which would then be passed to Siobhan Rumble at the TMO
02:07:03 oh yeah I probably did no I mean it was an rlo process and managed by the or allows but thinking about it I probably didn't know right was it on your understanding that the TMO is expecting
02:07:15 understanding that the TMO is expecting writen looking at this document at the least to have relevant information about vulnerable residents in the tower that it might need in order to make decisions
02:07:27 it might need in order to make decisions about matters on the project and the design sorry could you say again yes I
02:07:38 design sorry could you say again yes I put the question a slightly different way so it's simpler did you understand at the time that TMO expected writing to have a full dossier of information about individual
02:07:49 of information about individual residents so that the refurbishment could be planned yes where is information that we needed to be at content residency exactly yes and specifically relevant information about
02:08:01 specifically relevant information about vulnerable residents those oysters be picked up provide if the resident that was obviously willing to share that information yeah no can I ask you to
02:08:13 information yeah no can I ask you to look different topic I want to ask you about CDM regulations can you please go to a RT four zero six one seven four page two this is an email chain between
02:08:26 page two this is an email chain between right and our T Leah and the T MA and on page two we can see it comes from Claire Williams 25th of September 2015 say a month will say before you leave Simon
02:08:38 month will say before you leave Simon can I ask if Ryden would be able to take on the role of principal designer for grenfell or whether you would look to get to contract this out to studio e can you please consider this request urgently as I understand the role
02:08:50 urgently as I understand the role changes from 5th of October our Celia of preparing a handover pack as their professional identity won't allow them to take on this change of role and if we scroll up to the to the response page one your response we can see that you
02:09:03 one your response we can see that you say
02:09:08 so it's not you but it's Steve Blake - Simon Lawrence and Claire Williams so you ride and say and you but you see this Claire has discussed at site meeting unfortunately this is not a role we are able to pull fulfil on all our
02:09:20 we are able to pull fulfil on all our other contracts the CDM C provider has transferred to become principal designer what did you mean when you told her that
02:09:33 I'm so sorry was it your understanding that that was a role that Bryden could not fulfill correct and if you look a little bit
02:09:44 correct and if you look a little bit down the page and I should have shown you this document first mr. Laura miss Lawrence is my fault Simon Lawrence - Claire Williams 25th of September 2015 Claire I know studio we aren't set up to
02:09:55 Claire I know studio we aren't set up to provide this service at the moment I refer to Steve regarding was taking this role as I'm not sure whether we are set up for this yet when you say not set up what did you have in mind on having the
02:10:07 what did you have in mind on having the in-house expertise to be able to fulfill that role it's that why right and declined to take on the role of principal designer yeah I believe we spoke to to do a who again at that time
02:10:18 spoke to to do a who again at that time the transition period of changing over to 15 rigs studio we weren't able to provide that role either and neither
02:10:33 provide that role either and neither were right
02:10:40 yes
02:10:52 yes yes thank you mr. Lawrence mr. Lawrence I have one final question which tends to be one asked of of nature witnesses in this inquiry and it it's
02:11:03 witnesses in this inquiry and it it's this we've been through your evidence now for some four days and I've asked you a lot of questions and I'm grateful to you for answering them for us looking back on everything and looking back on
02:11:15 back on everything and looking back on the project as a whole is there anything now that you'd like to tell us that you think now you should have done differently I think in in hindsight I
02:11:27 differently I think in in hindsight I think it would be good to employ whether direct or indirectly some more technical and as in design ability to check the
02:11:45 and as in design ability to check the design over and above the designers are we already had so that's that's one thing yeah sorry little bit we worried
02:11:56 thing yeah sorry little bit we worried after four days I you know was the Lawrence thank you very much indeed I have no further questions for you for module one so I'm very grateful to you thank you very much mr. Lawrence thank
02:12:09 thank you very much mr. Lawrence thank you very much for coming to give your evidence it's gone on for a longer than I know you were expecting but it has been very helpful to us to hear what you have to say thank you and we're grateful to you for making the additional time
02:12:21 to you for making the additional time available thank you very much indeed good to go thank you
02:12:39 right Thank You mr. minute that's it for today I take it mr. chairman yes thank you can I thank you on behalf of my team for allowing us to sit a little bit later didn't order to finish this witness right it's very important that we got his everything through today and
02:12:51 we got his everything through today and we'll take this at 10 o'clock tomorrow very good thank you very much