Bruce Crawford of Studio E gives evidence about commenting on drawings versus approval, the NBS specification including Reynobond alternatives, Celotex FR 5000, lack of experience in over-cladding high-rise buildings, and cavity barrier design.
00:00:52 Thank You Josh mr. Crawford - come back please thank you
00:01:11 all right mr. Crawford ready to resume yes thank you very much thank you thank you mr. Crawford mr. Crawford I'm here to ask you some questions about comments on drawings that's the topic can I ask you please to go to your
00:01:22 can I ask you please to go to your witness statement at page 23 paragraph 55 and you say there in my opinion is technically incorrect for Harley to ask
00:01:35 technically incorrect for Harley to ask me to approve quite some quotes a drawing specialist packages such as cladding lifts stairs etc would be completed by and the primary responsibilities of specialist subcontractors we comment on their
00:01:48 subcontractors we comment on their drawings only from the perspective of architectural intent and I just want to ask you about one not why you say it's technically incorrect to say that Harley was asking studio E to approve drawings
00:01:59 was asking studio E to approve drawings and do you accept that it's correct that an architect on this project would be obliged to comment on subcontractor design drawings yes comment on them miss yes and in
00:02:12 yes comment on them miss yes and in doing so you were obliged as the architect or the project lead if I can use the expression to exercise reasonable skill and care in such comments yes yes and in stamping a
00:02:30 comments yes yes and in stamping a drawing with the red stamp that we looked at before lunch is it is it fair to say that you as the person putting the stamp on it and signing it was
00:02:41 the stamp on it and signing it was representing or stating to whoever read it that studio II considered that the design was compliant with statutory requirements
00:02:52 hmm no it's it confirms that we've commented on it the status reflects the level of comment right but if you had
00:03:05 level of comment right but if you had said that it as we see that the drawing complies all comports with design intent or architectural intent would would you
00:03:16 or architectural intent would would you expect somebody reading the drawing and your stamp on it to expect that whoever stamped it had satisfied themselves that the drawing complied with statutory requirements
00:03:34 no I'd stick by my national government
00:03:40 architects generally you don't approve drawings they comment on them that's the distinction if a subcontractor specified
00:03:51 distinction if a subcontractor specified a non-compliant material and you knew that you wouldn't mark the drawing status a would you
00:04:09 if it was overwhelming like evident to you yes I see overwhelming the evidence is that what you mean by manifest yes so does that mean that you were I mean
00:04:23 so does that mean that you were I mean let me give you an example for example fuel commenting on a lift package and there's some aspect in the lift more towards was not compliant then I see did
00:04:38 towards was not compliant then I see did Harley who produced the specialist cladding subcontractor drawings some of which we've seen ever actually tell you that they had indeed checked the
00:04:50 that they had indeed checked the material in the cladding system they were designing for regulatory compliance well my understanding is they proposed
00:05:01 well my understanding is they proposed the materials in some instances
00:05:08 for them specialist designers for them to do so dudes they'd be required to purchase to do so in the Manolos
00:05:20 purchase to do so in the Manolos compliant you say my understanding is that they proposed the materials in some instances what was your understanding in
00:05:31 instances what was your understanding in in and after July 2014 about what materials Harley had specified for
00:05:43 materials Harley had specified for example the aspects of the internal construction for example the support rails the window info panels
00:06:01 and where did you get your understanding that those had been specified by Harley from for example in the employers requirements under L 10 whose
00:06:12 requirements under L 10 whose specification for Windows and Susan performance spec relating to the for example 10 in full panel their forest for especially subcontractor to me the
00:06:24 for especially subcontractor to me the employers requirements I this back in the drawings specifically this back in compliance with the spec spec required for them to be compliant therefore
00:06:35 for them to be compliant therefore whatever a proposal they put forward would have to be compliant are you I think we're talking about something that happened before you came on the scene there won't we the specification or suggestion by Harley of particular
00:06:47 suggestion by Harley of particular materials to go into the NBS specification we're talking about the same thing partially because our NB a spec for example under L 10 and the windows there's a performance spec for
00:07:00 windows there's a performance spec for the infill panel at the employer's requirement stage so they had to meet that performance spec did let me get
00:07:11 that performance spec did let me get back to my question did hardly ever positively tell you that they and this is after innovation they had checked the material in the cladding system so for
00:07:22 material in the cladding system so for example the insulation or the rain screen for regulatory compliance there sure Building Control that they were being compliant do they ever tell you
00:07:34 being compliant do they ever tell you mr. Crawford that they had checked the material in the cladding system at for regulatory compliance categorically to my face
00:07:46 my face so did do we take it that you proceeded on the assumption that they'd satisfied themselves that those materials were compliant
00:07:59 guess
00:08:05 I mean I understood their terms of appointment
00:08:13 did you ever tell Harley that in fact all you were doing after Novation was commenting on whether there were any aesthetic issues or other matters
00:08:25 aesthetic issues or other matters falling you within your definition as you've explained it to us of architectural intent if you expected
00:08:36 architectural intent if you expected them to understand and just do standard and understand this understand it is the architect comments and specialist contractors thank you shrines for architectural intent can I ask you to go
00:08:49 architectural intent can I ask you to go to se a 0 0 0 1 3 3 1 2 now this is an
00:09:01 to se a 0 0 0 1 3 3 1 2 now this is an email from Kevin Lam updated the 5th of August 2015 to you I'm sorry - Simon Lawrence copied to you and and some
00:09:18 Lawrence copied to you and and some people at Harley do we see that you do see that yeah and attached to that email is a long list of drawings correct yes
00:09:29 is a long list of drawings correct yes and and mr. Lam says to you Neal please find attached curtain wall drawings for comment stroke approval you see that yes
00:09:40 comment stroke approval you see that yes and if you go to another one which is SCA zero zero zero zero two eight five one a page one
00:09:57 this is a different pack of drawing Harley drawings sent to a studio II to you in fact for comment on the 22nd of August 2014 and it says at the bottom
00:10:12 August 2014 and it says at the bottom right hand corner issued for approval certainly the first two pages do these
00:10:26 certainly the first two pages do these are all they look like two examples the email I showed you from August 15 and these drawings from August 2014 that's like examples of where Harley
00:10:37 that's like examples of where Harley have asked you studio II for approval of their drawings would you agree with that
00:10:49 mmm not necessarily the stunts issued for approval we comment on them then in the main contractor to prove them architect we don't approve them for construction we say to Harley or no you
00:11:01 construction we say to Harley or no you can't go into construction well let's just go back then to the email we looked at a minute ago se a zero zero zero one three three one two fifth of orders two comments talk comments drug approval yes
00:11:13 comments talk comments drug approval yes so clearly list we could read the email and when you receive that email what did you do by way of comment or approval I
00:11:30 have to check by assuming I commented on them and returned the comments I see you can see that mr. lamb used the word approval did you go back to him and say
00:11:42 approval did you go back to him and say dear Kevin or dear mr. lamb surely you understand by now that we Studio II are not in the business of approving drawings I think to be fair thing this
00:11:55 drawings I think to be fair thing this is that this is commonly misused across all projects and has been for a long time
00:12:01 time misunderstanding and distinction between comment he used the expression comment stroke approval can you explain why you didn't correct his misunderstanding if
00:12:13 didn't correct his misunderstanding if that's what it was for the reason I've given that I think what approval is used very loosely within then distributed the that's not actually what it means did
00:12:27 that's not actually what it means did you ever tell Harley at any time that your job wasn't to approve drawings but just to just to comment on architectural intent or design intent I don't recall right can I turn to a
00:12:42 I don't recall right can I turn to a different topic which is the impact of studio e ll P's insolvency now we can take a take this quite quickly I think
00:12:53 take a take this quite quickly I think you started working on the project in orderly after July 2014 yes yes and shortly after that do you remember that in August 2014 Studio E LLP was put into creditors
00:13:06 Studio E LLP was put into creditors voluntary liquidation yes and you knew that at the time did you I knew things were going on in the background there's always a delay understandable delay I suppose between what was happening a
00:13:17 suppose between what was happening a high level with the directors and then disseminating that information down to the employees that I think it's consistent logical which was kind of decisions being made you know do you
00:13:28 decisions being made you know do you remember whether the insolvency of LLP was caused in any way or contributed to in any way by payment back logs on the ground felt our project no I believe
00:13:39 ground felt our project no I believe that was covered in the earlier viewing with with Andre
00:13:46 the matters relating to us obviously were connected more to connect were connected to your separate work stream did the insolvency of LLP and the move
00:13:58 did the insolvency of LLP and the move over to the move of the practice over to or to studio architects limited did that take up your time and personally no I've
00:14:12 take up your time and personally no I've said the directors and directors [Music]
00:14:19 [Music] typically isolated that from people who are working on projects says it can we take it from that that it didn't divert your time from the time the grand filter
00:14:30 your time from the time the grand filter project did it did it divert senior management attention away from the Grenfell tower project I don't know if at ways the correct word it obviously obviously required time to
00:14:46 it obviously obviously required time to address it as an issue I'm not sure to say that it's to time away with me I saw the cracks or that I could miss Holly should be the person to answer that right did your employer change from
00:15:01 right did your employer change from studio ELP to studio a architects limited your full OS using and yes and I remember getting l think a letter to that effect
00:15:12 that effect do you remember when that was it had been within that time period but pacifically not some of 7 2014 yeah I see now we've heard from mr. kachelle
00:15:23 see now we've heard from mr. kachelle that studio studio E architects limited his name is now a much smaller entity than studio E LLP was when it existed and he gave some evidence about that and
00:15:37 and he gave some evidence about that and in in the opening submissions of studio E we were told that when the project was transferred over to Studio E architects limited there were nine employees canoed
00:15:50 limited there were nine employees canoed is that correct is that do you recall that sounds right to me yes does that mean that that there was a limited staff available to work on the ground
00:15:58 ground our project after studio e ll Pease insolvency not in a material way inviting broken material production or I
00:16:09 inviting broken material production or I mean if you're saying there were 45 or they were having many staff 40 and then no nine then there's less of a pool of staff but there wasn't a reduction in its laughs can you remember when the
00:16:20 its laughs can you remember when the majority of the staff that had existed after pet upped I think to 45 in 2012 when they were when they were made redundant I'm not sure thank you sir
00:16:36 redundant I'm not sure thank you sir slightly iterative process with with some voluntary redundancy so I couldn't say do you remember when the bulk of them were let go I'd have to check all right when you
00:16:50 I'd have to check all right when you came into the Grenfell tower project in the summer of 2014 were you the only person available at Studio E to take it over from Bruce stones or where there are the candidates in the frame and you
00:17:02 are the candidates in the frame and you were the lucky winner
00:17:09 imagine that would have been other candidates bidam i can't i don't recall the thinking or anything at the time right now we've heard so far that Bruce
00:17:24 right now we've heard so far that Bruce stones had been assisted during the earlier stages of the grenfell tower project by a number of other architects is it the case that you were not actually given a team to work with for
00:17:37 actually given a team to work with for the rest of the project once you've come into it in the summer of 2014
00:17:46 yeah I think that's correct I wasn't given that team I think in the handover always made clear to me was what's still remained in terms of design work and that it wasn't very much
00:17:57 that it wasn't very much [Music]
00:18:03 did you feel entirely comfortable with taking the ground felt our project forward on your own without a team underneath you to help you I mean
00:18:17 underneath you to help you I mean personally I never particularly liked taking projects over from other people because I personally just like to work from something from start to finish because you just always have you're more
00:18:30 because you just always have you're more confident in Europe they you've made the decisions and so on and I think but I think this is logical so obviously exact
00:18:45 think this is logical so obviously exact question but my question was a there's really by the you felt entirely comfortable taking the Grenville tower project forward on your own without a team helping you well I I suppose I'd
00:18:58 team helping you well I I suppose I'd make several observations one was that British boys still involved o beat becoming less over time and that's at
00:19:10 becoming less over time and that's at that time small office the new sitting opposite so there's always the opportunity to
00:19:17 confer on things I I don't think I did sense that there was a requirement for a
00:19:28 sense that there was a requirement for a team based on what I understood still had to be done can I just ask you a question about calc you'd been working
00:19:39 question about calc you'd been working on the calc project I think from the start of the calc project yes and that was obviously before you started work on on the ground felt our project how did you see the the calc
00:19:54 project how did you see the the calc project in relation to the Grenfell tower project in what respect it did you see one is more prestigious than the other or more important or they're two
00:20:06 other or more important or they're two different building two different types of building I mean I think we were obviously working with different architects on the leisure center for
00:20:18 architects on the leisure center for example and so each could put each component had the opportunity to complement each other was there a time
00:20:30 complement each other was there a time when you were working on both couch and grenfell tower in parallel yes I was I think when I started I think the first
00:20:41 think when I started I think the first contact date I had in relation to grandpa Terra was middle of July 14th of Jaya something other speaking of building control who were
00:20:53 speaking of building control who were also working on calc and so I was calc was essentially done but there were little bits of work still being tied up I see
00:21:11 when you slightly a different topic I just want to talk about the experience of studio II when you started work on the grenfell tower project were you
00:21:23 the grenfell tower project were you aware that studio II as a practice did not have any experience in over cladding high-rise residential buildings I had a
00:21:34 high-rise residential buildings I had a little bit of cladding it's benning's bits not didn't have high-rise experience right were you aware that those at Studio II who had prepared the
00:21:45 those at Studio II who had prepared the NBS specification did not have any experience in over cladding high-rise residential buildings I can see whether
00:21:56 residential buildings I can see whether they did or didn't I mean the individual designers standard who did that spec may have had experience in high rise over cladding because there won't be a hard
00:22:10 cladding because there won't be a hard work to naama prices as I understand about that question would be for them I see were you aware when you took over the ground for our project from mr. stones that mr. sands have had
00:22:22 stones that mr. sands have had reservations when he'd started and had said that studio he was a bit green on process and technicality no I didn't go back and read all the emails we were you
00:22:35 back and read all the emails we were you aware that mr. stones that had recommended to mr. kachelle that studio II and I think he in particular perhaps should undertake some rapid CPD before commencing work on the ground field our
00:22:46 commencing work on the ground field our project was never did anybody ask you to take some CPD before starting work on the ground felt our project in July 14
00:22:57 the ground felt our project in July 14 no did it occur to you to do say
00:23:04 I mean CPD something that's ongoing obviously and there's the forms of it and I had I had high-rise experience had
00:23:15 and I had I had high-rise experience had residential experience did I specifically have I rise for a climbing experience no do you agree that studio II was under an obligation to ensure
00:23:27 II was under an obligation to ensure that the firmly organized itself effectively so that it was prepared and resourced for what in effect was a new
00:23:38 resourced for what in effect was a new and challenging type of project I understand what you're saying and I understand why you've said it but I think it's he's a little unrealistic I
00:23:49 think it's he's a little unrealistic I mean every every architectural practice every project in a sense is new and for you maybe carve out a niche ting a certain type of architecture you you're
00:24:00 certain type of architecture you you're always coming across it doesn't matter how big you are you always come across new new topologies I think I think when
00:24:11 new new topologies I think I think when you do start or you do work on a new typology then yeah you do a bit of research as you got into and through right did you do any project specific research of course in this stage I was
00:24:23 research of course in this stage I was coming on in the project surfing research was the project itself because it's effectively been designed right well ii ii ii ii ii n stage would it be
00:24:35 well ii ii ii ii ii n stage would it be unfair to characterize what you're telling us as studio ii in essence learning on the job so far as grenfell tower was concerned well you're always
00:24:48 tower was concerned well you're always learning on the job so is the active which job which practiced I mean architecture is not term you know you're not pressing out at the same car over and over again you're if we project
00:25:00 over and over again you're if we project is unique here and so in challenges as so in self learning
00:25:06 but more specifically would it be fair to characterize what you're saying to us that in respect of a project involving over cladding of a high-rise residential tower block studio he was learning on
00:25:18 tower block studio he was learning on the job but in the context of done one before yes yes as a practice as opposed
00:25:34 before yes yes as a practice as opposed to individuals did did it occur to you at the time that in light of the experience or lack of it that studio he had in respect of overturning a
00:25:46 had in respect of overturning a high-rise tower blocks studio he ought to have recognized that the current levels of knowledge and experience within the firm would need to be expanded either by further research or austra some strategic hires from outside
00:25:59 austra some strategic hires from outside did that occur to you well I suppose it occurred to me that the further research had been done in getting as far as the portraits had when I became involved and
00:26:12 portraits had when I became involved and I believe that research had been done I see did you ask anybody I was aware of it because as I mentioned I Britain this sat in such close proximity to me the office is small
00:26:24 proximity to me the office is small you're always aware of other projects there are so many projects that you didn't see things were going on you know things discussed quite openly at times
00:26:35 things discussed quite openly at times you're always aware of other projects and all your colleagues are working on and so I did when it came to the handover session that you had with mr. Sainz in the summer of 2014
00:26:48 Sainz in the summer of 2014 do you recall him saying to you something along the lines of this is a and an over cladding of a an existing residential high-rise block here are
00:27:00 residential high-rise block here are some things that you that I've discovered about that kind of project that you should know did you ever have that kind of conversation
00:27:07 I think the conversation we had was along the lines of these are the issues that I see in terms of things have still
00:27:18 that I see in terms of things have still to be resolved designer shoes particularly the lower levels at the crown with SADS maintenance and so there's a kind of a list of things that
00:27:30 there's a kind of a list of things that he saw his outstanding his voice that design mice there was very little to still to do right so do we take it from that as far as so far as you were concerned any project specific research
00:27:42 concerned any project specific research or self education on how to go about over cladding an existing high-rise residential tower block had already been done by others at Studio E yes I see and
00:27:54 done by others at Studio E yes I see and who would be that who would that be to say Epirus atomic Adrian just the people
00:28:05 say Epirus atomic Adrian just the people who'd worked on in the project prior to myself right now let's just pursue this a little bit further I just want to ask you about where design had got to by the
00:28:17 you about where design had got to by the time you took over can we begin by looking at the NBS specification itself which is se a zero zero zero zero zero one six nine now that's the first page
00:28:34 one six nine now that's the first page of it just to be clear with you mr. Crawford there are actually three versions of this one dated the 21st of November one date at the the 29th of
00:28:45 November one date at the the 29th of November 2013 in both cases and this version which is the last one dated 30th of January 2014 mm-hmm so this would be about six months
00:28:56 mm-hmm so this would be about six months or seven months or so prior to your involvement in the green for grateful tower project yes yes okay are you familiar with this document either from at the time or from
00:29:08 document either from at the time or from your recent work since reasonably okay and it's a long and complex document I don't want to to take you to it if you're not familiar with it first question when you did your hand over a
00:29:20 question when you did your hand over a session with mr. st. did he show this document to you I don't recall B did explain the this where the project was at okay did you
00:29:32 where the project was at okay did you look at this together with him I don't know but I would have looked at the specification at some point right early on that okay did he tell you who had put
00:29:43 on that okay did he tell you who had put it together
00:29:48 okay I'm going to ask you some detailed questions about this this document specifically in relation to cladding and insulation for grenfell later on I just wanted to focus for the moment on this
00:30:03 wanted to focus for the moment on this document and what you knew about it coming into the project if we can look please at page 65 you will see on that page a part or chapter paragraph types
00:30:18 page a part or chapter paragraph types of rainscreen cladding did you see that - section exactly and paragraph 120 and 123 120 is on page 65 123 is on page 66
00:30:32 123 120 is on page 65 123 is on page 66 but let's just focus on page 65 if we can it'll be familiar to use as a project person but perhaps not familiar
00:30:43 project person but perhaps not familiar with others so we'll take it slowly 120 rainscreen cladding two columns external envelope of main entrance canopy see that yes
00:30:52 that yes and then rainscreen cladding system manufacturer submit proposals type drained it back ventilated and then rain screen panel manufacturer kme architectural solutions care of Kerry
00:31:03 architectural solutions care of Kerry Yorkshire limited East Lancashire Road Kirby so it Kirk B and then product reference Proteus H our honeycomb rain screen panel material aluminium honeycomb core structurally bonded
00:31:15 honeycomb core structurally bonded between two lightweight zinc skins and then there's some detail learn about those ink skins of sheets manufacturer you see that yes and at the bottom of the page over on to the next page it's
00:31:29 the page over on to the next page it's still age 92 paragraph 1 2 3 rainscreen cladding 2 spandrel panels and then again under rain screen panel you see again exactly
00:31:40 rain screen panel you see again exactly the same manufacturer km e and product reference Proteus HR honeycomb rain screen panel yes my material aluminium honeycomb core structurally bonded between two lightweight zinc skins now
00:31:55 if you that that that's that now if you then go back to page 64 and look at H 92 you see under paragraph 11 information
00:32:09 you see under paragraph 11 information to be provided with tender you see that do you see that yes and under that let's just look at that slowly together in addition to the cladding specified in the below clauses 120 and 123 which
00:32:20 the below clauses 120 and 123 which we've just looked at mr. crawford submit comparative supply and install costs per square meter of the whole cladding system for the following alternative materials and then there are three of
00:32:32 materials and then there are three of them
00:32:32 them Renault bond dura glass 5000 metallic standard and non-standard satin gloss chameleon an anodized look satin gloss and then a leuco bond spectra sakura
00:32:45 and then a leuco bond spectra sakura nine one seven and then zinc quartz in composite polymer panel by vm zinc and then underneath that note face fast and solutions permitted now now I've shown you that in in full because there are
00:32:57 you that in in full because there are questions were going to come to later on about the detail there but can I ask you first having shown you that did mr. sones
00:33:07 sones identify during your hand over that that there was a primary product for the rain screen which had been specified namely the Proteas honeycomb core zinc with a
00:33:21 the Proteas honeycomb core zinc with a set of alternatives to be priced including the rhino bond which we've seen did he experience I understood it handler or roundabout
00:33:36 I understood it handler or roundabout and I understood the term Harley at
00:33:48 and I understood the term Harley at ridin had already proposed the reign of born product to to the Katy's CMO net
00:33:59 born product to to the Katy's CMO net and it had been that great and then they were going to proceed on that basis I think Bruce was hoping let's the think
00:34:11 think Bruce was hoping let's the think option would be would be maintained because I think he felt it looked did you have a discussion with mr. Jones about that the makeup of the product
00:34:25 about that the makeup of the product comprising the great the rain screen panel as it was or as it had been selected at the moment you came into the project I can recall at which point two
00:34:37 project I can recall at which point two is discussed I suspect there would have been some discussion at the handle right say are you saying that when you came into the project the selection of rain upon 5,000 JIRA
00:34:50 the selection of rain upon 5,000 JIRA gloss as the rain screen panel product had already been made you saying that my understanding when I was getting to grips the project was that decision had been made but possibly Bruce was holding
00:35:03 been made but possibly Bruce was holding out on dink I mean I'm not sure when when exactly I knew or he knew suit I mean but I didn't
00:35:18 yeah my understanding was that they do he was pretty sure they were going with the very important product right pretty sure they were going with it okay can you be clear in your own mind
00:35:29 can you be clear in your own mind whether well let me orientate yourself that the full plans application wasn't submitted in fact until until August and then again some further information in
00:35:40 then again some further information in September yes so at that time you came into the project how fixed was the decision to go with the Reynaud bond durig lost 5,000 rainscreen panels I
00:35:52 durig lost 5,000 rainscreen panels I believe that decision had been made it our planning climb back in April of 2014
00:36:05 that's my understanding of it did you think to ask mr. stones when you discovered that the rain screen was going to be aluminium composite what the
00:36:19 going to be aluminium composite what the core of the panel was to be made of
00:36:28 my understanding was that the Zedd CMR the ACM panels where the face we just aluminium ring screen panels and what about the core these so it's a it's a
00:36:46 about the core these so it's a it's a laminated panel of some description yeah were you aware generally that ACM panels commonly have a PE polyethylene core I was aware of ACM before I was
00:37:00 core I was aware of ACM before I was only aware I've never used that those aware of it I'd received a sample in my previous job and I remember partner making a comment about it and but I had
00:37:13 making a comment about it and but I had no knowledge of the product you say you had come into the ground felt our project where a decision had already been made I think you say to use a
00:37:24 been made I think you say to use a product which you'd never you'd had no experience of not using them no did you ask mr. Sain some questions about this product such as what's it
00:37:36 about this product such as what's it made of
00:37:37 made of I think he had samples that he assured me I see yeah can I just get you repeat the question I asked a moment ago did you know generally that that aluminium
00:37:48 you know generally that that aluminium composite panels commonly have a polyethylene core well had a polyethylene core I know the other core I don't know I don't know what this mean
00:37:59 I don't know I don't know what this mean oh did you not think of your job to find out
00:38:08 well I I like I said understood to them I understood I seen the power up before and I understood it's a commonly used green screen panel type did you at this
00:38:24 green screen panel type did you at this early stage have any discussion with mr. stones about whether the intention was for the panels to be face fixed or face fastened as the as the NBS spec says
00:38:35 fastened as the as the NBS spec says it's permitted or a cassette system did you have that discussion the point of wish I think I was aware that there was face fix was from the mock-up that was
00:38:48 face fix was from the mock-up that was done the sample panel is done on-site at the base of the tower and I think I was in our calc meeting at that point and bris arranged for me to already phoned
00:39:00 bris arranged for me to already phoned me whatever and said we'll come round and look at it I'm looking at the panel yes I see and that would have been in that summer July time something yes yes now can I look on in this document
00:39:12 now can I look on in this document please at page 73 with you and look at H 92 so we're still in still in the rainscreen cladding paragraph 7 76 at the top of the page thermal insulation
00:39:23 the top of the page thermal insulation do you see that yes material 0 ODP rigid polyisocyanurate insulation board manufacturer Celotex you see that
00:39:36 board manufacturer Celotex you see that yes and there's a product reference just a little bit below that fr 5,000 aluminium foil faced both sides and then this conductivity formula and thickness
00:39:50 this conductivity formula and thickness not less than 150 millimeters for spandrel panels and 80 millimeters for columns required performance refer to Clause 4 30 the question is did mr. stones identify to you that Celotex FR
00:40:03 stones identify to you that Celotex FR 5000 had been specified as the thermal insulation to be used within the building envelope
00:40:28 I can call you I mean he might have done I mean out of red max Ford and reporter and probably seen it in that he probably
00:40:43 and probably seen it in that he probably may have discussed it in discussing the project you know you say you would have read the max Fordham report what I say
00:40:54 read the max Fordham report what I say that may have seen it yes yes fair enough
00:40:56 enough do you remember what stage you read the max Fordham report I think when I came on the project I probably read well for sure the high level fire strategy and I
00:41:08 sure the high level fire strategy and I read they probably read the mat nice forum report right the when you say the high level fast how do you mean xavius most recent yeah but whichever was the outline for that wish would have been
00:41:19 outline for that wish would have been the last one yeah very well we're gonna come to that into your course but do we take you from that that you you would also or did also read the NBS specification or not as one of the
00:41:31 specification or not as one of the important documents from cover to cover I don't know I suspect in the handover briefs we would have given me a general description and yeah can I get ask you
00:41:46 description and yeah can I get ask you to get back to page 64 in the same document we were on that before but I just want to get back to it to pick up a further point at the top of the page under h92 rainscreen cladding it says
00:41:59 under h92 rainscreen cladding it says second bullet point down that I should just say this is to be read with preliminaries general conditions second bullet point down the manufacturer is noted within the specification are
00:42:10 noted within the specification are indicative and may be substituted with similar or equal alternatives did you have a discussion with mr. Soames about what similar or equal alternatives mentor or a discussion on that topic
00:42:25 that phraseology is used quite often specifications so I would understand generally what that phraseology meant but I'm I didn't I don't require me in
00:42:37 but I'm I didn't I don't require me in Pacific discussion alright and just tell me what would you just what would you understand that general phraseology to mean phraseology generally to mean just so he called
00:42:51 generally to mean just so he called Samara product I mean it's very often used when you're trying to indicate something but you're not tied to it similar and equal in in what respects
00:43:10 appearance behavior functionality yeah performance if you if you are
00:43:22 yeah performance if you if you are stating in the context of performance yes so for example if you have a performance back our performance element is backing pretty similar approved and they would be in that context
00:43:39 if you are
00:43:43 substituting a product with another product would you want that substitute product to be similar or equal in terms of its performance such as its fire
00:43:55 of its performance such as its fire performance yeah I think as it pertains to the specification of the Celotex FR
00:44:07 to the specification of the Celotex FR 5,000 that we've seen within this NBS specification what latitude did you understand this provision gave 10 during contractors in respect of selection of
00:44:18 contractors in respect of selection of insulation materials for use within the building envelope well if the tenders
00:44:30 building envelope well if the tenders the opportunity to propose something and then for it to be agreed by the by by the main contractor and the client
00:44:45 the main contractor and the client having the kite if you're changing something the contractor would have to go back if it was a change from the employers requirements they can track too tough to go back to the client yeah
00:44:59 too tough to go back to the client yeah I'm not sure that quite answers my question the question is what latitude what with room for maneuver if you like the expression may be substituted with similar or equal alternatives gave to
00:45:12 similar or equal alternatives gave to the selection of those selecting material think you'd have to test and in that context I see okay well we'll come back to that then
00:45:23 did you have any conversations at the time or in those early days of your involvement in the project with mr. sands about the suitability of the for example fr 5,000 for use on the external
00:45:35 example fr 5,000 for use on the external facade of Grenfell and no I understood I think understood from I think British is
00:45:46 think understood from I think British is fairly adamant about its appropriateness I didn't see what does he say to you I I think he understood it was complying and
00:46:00 think he understood it was complying and agree I mean I think he understood it I think he understood all these systems is compliant did you actually do you actually have a recollection of Bruce stones actually saying to you
00:46:11 stones actually saying to you I think the fr 5000 Celotex product is compliant well I don't have a
00:46:22 compliant well I don't have a recollection is categorically saying that to my face but knowing Bruce I mean he wouldn't have who followed us back you know before the design they thought wasn't complying would you have expected him to check for himself that the fr 5000 was
00:46:35 check for himself that the fr 5000 was compliant I mean this station design absolutely I mean you wouldn't be pitting in things that weren't compliant and to that end respect no no and what about the ACM will turn over the a the
00:46:46 about the ACM will turn over the a the Reina bond it's the same same same did you yourself for many view of your own
00:46:57 you yourself for many view of your own about the suitability of Celotex fr 5000 for youth in Grenville's external facade given that it was a building above 18 meters in height
00:47:13 did I for many opinions I mean that I think phenolic and PIR installations are commonly used above buildings over 18 meters and I you walk around London you
00:47:26 meters and I you walk around London you see buildings constantly constructed at the eye with PIR and tonight that's your cut that was your common experience at the time was it I'm guessing you're
00:47:43 the time was it I'm guessing you're guessing it was like well I didn't you have a recollection physically sir not why I remember each time but for years now people have been no understanding so
00:47:55 now people have been no understanding so just so I'm absolutely clear was it your experience as at in the summer of 2014 that the use of PIR of phenolic insulation on buildings above eighty meters was common was that your
00:48:07 meters was common was that your experience yeah
00:48:23 it's been pointed out to me that the transcript has picked up inaudible where I said phenolic so let me just ask the question again was it your experience as at the summer of 2014 that the use of
00:48:35 at the summer of 2014 that the use of PIR and phenolic insulation materials at 18 meters and above or in don buildings of more than 18 meters in height
00:48:46 of more than 18 meters in height was common it's certainly not unusual so certainly now if we can look at SE a zero zero zero zero five eight four one
00:48:59 zero zero zero zero five eight four one this should be and is the fr 5000 datasheet dated the second of January 2012 we and we can see the date at the
00:49:12 2012 we and we can see the date at the top right hand corner of the document on page one mr. Crawford do you see that yes this is this you - have you ever seen this document before right do you
00:49:28 seen this document before right do you remember when you first saw it no do you think that you looked at this at any point during your involvement on the ground Phil tower project it's quite
00:49:39 ground Phil tower project it's quite possible can you help us without speculating about your own recollection do you think you might be able to tell us when you you first looked at it
00:49:54 I think I'd be speculating everything right let me ask the question in a slightly different way when you came to learn that Celotex FR 5000 was to be
00:50:07 learn that Celotex FR 5000 was to be used as insulation did you do you recall taking steps to check the madly the datasheet issued by the manufacturer for
00:50:18 datasheet issued by the manufacturer for that product Pacific cleaner
00:50:30 and now we can see on the first page that the fourth bullet point down that it says has class naught and fire performance throughout the entire
00:50:42 performance throughout the entire product in accordance with BS 476 you see that yes did did you well do you remember seeing a data sheet like this or this data
00:50:54 a data sheet like this or this data sheet which said in terms that the product had class naught fire performance throughout the entire product I remember seeing it and in a
00:51:05 product I remember seeing it and in a datasheet that hardly provided for the RS what did you understand by the
00:51:19 RS what did you understand by the expression has class naught fire performance throughout the entire product so I snatched all building class now before I get back to the NBS
00:51:33 now before I get back to the NBS specification I just wanted to go back to something you said a minute ago about common use of PIR and phenolic insulation on buildings above 18 meters
00:51:44 insulation on buildings above 18 meters was this was your experience the same in respect of aluminium composite rainscreen panels so far as you had any I haven't had any personal experience of
00:51:58 I haven't had any personal experience of specifying or using it I was aware of it and wear of the fact that it's been around for quite some time he's certainly not new to the industry my in
00:52:13 certainly not new to the industry my in previous practice I remember being sent a sample and the partner commenting on it saying they didn't like him because of the
00:52:24 of the black edges the size of God under ash but this beyond this I've no recollection of specifying or using the
00:52:37 recollection of specifying or using the product I see you don't happen to remember who the manufacturer of this slightly unpopular panel was I notice I look a bond
00:52:48 look a bond look at ya can I take you back to the NBS specification please we may need to come back and do calls to this Celotex datasheet but let's take get that away
00:53:00 datasheet but let's take get that away go back to the NBS spec I see a 5-0 is 169 page 69 so I see a 0-0 0 at page 69 and you will
00:53:11 so I see a 0-0 0 at page 69 and you will see there under clause 310 under design straight performance requirements it says CW t CW c t-- standard for
00:53:23 it says CW t CW c t-- standard for systemized building envelopes see that yes there is a reference there too as you can see the different parts of it
00:53:34 you can see the different parts of it and part 6 can you see it says the fire performance yes did you when you came to
00:53:49 performance yes did you when you came to to look at this NBS specification note that the CW to CT standard for systemized building envelopes was stipulated in it
00:54:03 and the CWC tea clause is fairly standard and each 92 I believe yes so do
00:54:16 standard and each 92 I believe yes so do we take it from that that given that you knew that the NBS spec had been used for grenfell that both it would logically follow that you knew that the CWC teas better standard was set out as part of
00:54:28 better standard was set out as part of the specification I would say that I don't I don't have any particularly informed insight into the CWC tea or what that standard is except that it is
00:54:42 what that standard is except that it is a recognized body and and therefore the standards it's proposing would be
00:54:54 standards it's proposing would be recognized let's see by our specialist subcontractor and they'd understand what those weren't or complying with the meant I see say let's just take this a little bit more more slowly to be clear
00:55:06 little bit more more slowly to be clear were you at all familiar with the provisions of the CWC tea design standard when you came into the project or at any time after coming into the project I think has my previous answer
00:55:20 project I think has my previous answer was aware of CWC tea as an organization and and in in in a general sense they're not not aware of the specific individual
00:55:31 not not aware of the specific individual standards given that this was an over cladding of a residential high-rise tower block did you not seek to examine
00:55:44 tower block did you not seek to examine the standard that had been specified in the in this in the NBS spec as I mentioned earlier fairly believe it's a fairly standard clause you can switch on
00:55:55 fairly standard clause you can switch on and off it is my question is whether given that this was a new and challenging kind of project over cladding an existing residential high-rise building in excess of 80 meters can you explain why you didn't go
00:56:08 meters can you explain why you didn't go to the CW TCT standard and examine it for the reasons I mentioned earlier and the boys in this back had been taken
00:56:19 and the boys in this back had been taken to tender stage I know Bruce I would have expected anyone to take all that information to tender stage without understanding it as compliant as we knew
00:56:34 understanding it as compliant as we knew asking me something very specific about a very specific clause and then BS is full of specific causes you've been in school in examine was of individual clauses in isolation like that and
00:56:49 clauses in isolation like that and perhaps perhaps I'm not being clear given that it is in the spec it may be a standard like suggesting that it isn't did you ever read it this back
00:57:00 did you ever read it this back did you ever read the standard the CWT CT standard for sister I something and I see it sorry it's a straightforward question no right moving on then to page one four five l 10 towards three three
00:57:14 one four five l 10 towards three three two
00:57:23 yes there it is aluminium windows fixed unit aluminium you can see second bullet point down panel stroke facing type
00:57:36 point down panel stroke facing type aluminium faced insulated panel comprising core insulation do you remember that being part of the spec
00:57:54 I think I was aware of it did you did you realize that the choice of window infill panel the choice of the material hadn't actually been specified at this
00:58:05 hadn't actually been specified at this stage I understood it effectively performance did you realize that that in
00:58:17 performance did you realize that that in fact an insulated core had been specified by Studio II within the spec that no specific material had been specified
00:58:24 specified yes our performance back in that respect well you say that in fact I think it's right isn't it that no criteria for fire performance at least had been specified for at least that element not reading
00:58:37 for at least that element not reading not reading that now I see did mr. Sains not draw your attention to that I'm not sure why you would but did you do
00:58:54 sure why you would but did you do yourself ever consider what if any steps needed to be taken to to specify the material for the insulating core the insulating panel don't be to the
00:59:06 insulating panel don't be to the specialist subcontractor mr. chairman I'm I'm rather in the middle of a
00:59:17 I'm I'm rather in the middle of a relatively lengthy prop topic but it's maybe a convenient moment to have a break for the afternoon in hand
00:59:30 sorry you wanted to keep going is up well I think mr. mill is signaling that he could be a little while on this topic I see so yes we'll take a break yeah ten
00:59:41 I see so yes we'll take a break yeah ten minutes back a quarter past three please yes
00:59:54 3:15 please
01:12:13 yes could we have mr. crawle back please
01:12:29 right ready to carry on mr. Crawford yes mr. Crawford thank you can I ask you please to be shown page 243 of the NBS specification which is the document we should still have up on
01:12:41 the document we should still have up on the screen and I ask you please to look at close to three five at the bottom of the page there where you can see that Studio II has specified under the heading compressible insulation in gaps
01:12:53 heading compressible insulation in gaps a manufacturer rockwool and the material you just look a little bit further down mineral wool to be Sen one three one six
01:13:07 mineral wool to be Sen one three one six two you see that yes and that's the compressible insulation in GATS now is it correct that the rockwool is the proprietary name I think we can't see
01:13:19 proprietary name I think we can't see this for a mineral wool product yes and a mineral wool product is and help me with this am i right in thinking that is a non combustible product and or app or
01:13:32 a non combustible product and or app or a product of limited combust ability yes in the sense that everything is combustible yes it's it's it's non-combustible yes it's inorganic so
01:13:45 non-combustible yes it's inorganic so yeah yeah now the specification as we can see is silent isn't it as to where the gaps are to be found
01:13:54 oh it doesn't say where the gaps are does it well yeah no but then the final
01:14:06 does it well yeah no but then the final line says kind of fit tailor between our own planning support what would you let me know it's asking this way when you did come to read this document what did
01:14:18 did come to read this document what did you understand gap stabbed it to mean or to denote
01:14:36 potentially you could apply that close to any gap or any space where you fell too small to be applied I see when you when you felt it was applicable to be
01:14:47 when you felt it was applicable to be applied what what gas would you feel you should fill with this insulation material and which gaps would you think you wouldn't are you able to help us in
01:14:59 you wouldn't are you able to help us in general terms
01:15:09 well I I mean I would expect that clause to be linked to your drawing if it didn't give a Pacific location although
01:15:21 didn't give a Pacific location although it does say kind of it tightly between their own cladding supporters yes that you're referring to the what reference joints butted no gaps yeah I see that's joint did did mr. sands ever inform you
01:15:34 joint did did mr. sands ever inform you then or thereafter as to where this mineral wool product was intended for use Sifl I don't recall did you take any
01:15:45 use Sifl I don't recall did you take any steps to familiarize yourself with the status of studio ease designs when you came into the project and specifically in relation to the facade sorry so again
01:15:58 in relation to the facade sorry so again did you take any steps to familiarize yourself with exactly the status of studio ease designs at the point you came into the project and specifically in relation to the facade I understood
01:16:11 in relation to the facade I understood the tender face so the facades were had been more top to employers requirements to stage II and how they were being
01:16:24 to stage II and how they were being deployed to purchase the specialist design right in that last answer you say we were in the tender phase in fact as of July 2014 Ryden had won the tender back in sorry
01:16:36 Ryden had won the tender back in sorry in art let's say yeah that's correct so so when you came into the project can I just repeat the question where had
01:16:47 just repeat the question where had studio he's designs got to they got to me they were in the tender information pack which which was the stage in design
01:16:59 pack which which was the stage in design which stays cold Steve f/11 right so let's look then on at at an example can I please ask you to be Shane's se a
01:17:11 can I please ask you to be Shane's se a zero zero zero zero two four nine nine and that's the offline version please mister operator
01:17:24 now this is a studio ee drawing which is entitled proposed section typical Bay you see that yes on the right hand side
01:17:36 you see that yes on the right hand side and it's set section and elevation yeah and you could see that yes exactly plan yes quite and plan and you can see that
01:17:48 yes quite and plan and you can see that the code is one two seven nine which is the Grenville code zero six one one zero now there are no prior versions of this drawing and it forms part of the
01:17:59 drawing and it forms part of the employer's requirements do you take that from me and it's dated the 24th of September 2013 as you can see from the bottom right hand corner just there visible on the screen mm-hmm this
01:18:12 visible on the screen mm-hmm this drawing clearly predated your involvement in the refurbishment project and therefore cat can we proceed safely mr. Crawford on the assumption that you saw it once you were involved in or
01:18:24 saw it once you were involved in or after July 2014 yes I think that's probably okay now if we enlarge the very bottom of the drawing we can see that it refers and this may be a little difficult it's on
01:18:36 this may be a little difficult it's on the very far left hand side at L 10 you see L 10
01:18:48 3 3 2 2 the insulated panel between the windows and I think in fact you have to move across the the plan to the center yet there it is has just come into view
01:19:00 yet there it is has just come into view now very bottom there where there's a funny-looking black mark do you see that to the right of it it says insulated panel glazed into window frame PPC l10 an ammonium face both sides of 3 3 2 you
01:19:12 an ammonium face both sides of 3 3 2 you see that yes and that is it right that that is the insulated panel between the windows that we were looking at just before the break when referred to in the
01:19:23 before the break when referred to in the in the NBS spec yes like it I'm sorry yes yes it is ok and and we want the
01:19:35 yes yes it is ok and and we want the page reference for that that's for the record that's just that's page 145 of SC 5 zeroes 169 so that's on the transcript now let's just work look at this together am i right in thinking that
01:19:46 together am i right in thinking that there's no reference here in this drawing to a product type to be used as the insulated panel correct that's correct yes and there's no reference to the type of insulation that should be
01:19:57 the type of insulation that should be used correctly the best my understanding of that yeah nor is there any reference to the criteria for performance in fire which that insulating product will panel must
01:20:09 that insulating product will panel must achieve device until L 10 so there's not in the drawing that's what you're saying yes and I don't think the specification
01:20:21 yes and I don't think the specification either identifies the core material it
01:20:32 either identifies the core material it doesn't know I didn't find the quality it identifies the outer material yes that's good yes exactly with that in mind do you agree that Studio II should
01:20:44 mind do you agree that Studio II should at least have specified the type of insulation product that should be used in this application even if the particular product wasn't specified not necessarily because the you value is
01:20:56 necessarily because the you value is given in the turn that's about thermal performance yes
01:21:03 yes why wouldn't can you explain why Studio II shouldn't have specified the type of insulation product because do especially subcontractor could then choose the
01:21:17 subcontractor could then choose the product is the deemed appropriate did you note the absence of specification of the type of insulation product at the time when you first looked at these drawings I don't know right and there's
01:21:37 drawings I don't know right and there's no reference to anywhere we've seen to the fire performance which is required in respect of these insulated panels are we right about that I didn't see anything in this back I would
01:21:49 anything in this back I would mmm there in the L 10 specs or technically that whole element is at window there should there have been a performance specification in respect to the insulation material how delicate the
01:22:02 the insulation material how delicate the was for fire well if it's a Wendell technically it's exempt from but it's an insulated panel glazed into the window
01:22:13 insulated panel glazed into the window frame so it would form part of the external construction wouldn't it no is part of the window you're drawing that distinction well listen now l 10 is
01:22:25 distinction well listen now l 10 is windows so it's been specified in Windows all right so let's then look at
01:22:33 another document an offline version this time of se a zero zero zero zero two four nine nine and this is proposed plan
01:22:45 four nine nine and this is proposed plan window level you see that you know this time we can see the L ten picked up clearly as the section in the middle between the two columns which is
01:22:58 between the two columns which is indicated by the arrow blob leading to L ten again insulated panel glazed into window frame PPC aluminium frame both sides do you see that yes and do you
01:23:10 sides do you see that yes and do you accept that an internal window lining would be needed to reduce the thermal bridging at the head sill and jamb interfaces of the window sorry I'm not
01:23:26 interfaces of the window sorry I'm not quite quite follow well the internal window lining specifically we are sorry the lining coming up to the edge of the
01:23:38 the lining coming up to the edge of the windows oh yes around the hall window around the whole window yes would you accept would you expect that the internal window linings would there would be internal window linings needed
01:23:50 would be internal window linings needed to in order to reduce the thermal bridging at the at those parts of the window interfaces yes and we've seen that already that Studio II specified
01:24:03 that already that Studio II specified contestable rock wall insulation as the packing material yeah I saw that before I believe that's one I Section I think that is picked yet on because the side
01:24:17 that is picked yet on because the side boards are originally Beach faced ply as we face play and these are spec reference to
01:24:30 3:55 or whatever it was the compressible yes we need to we can go we can go back
01:24:41 yes we need to we can go we can go back to that bearing that in mind it we've known we can see that the MBI spec didn't actually specify the location of the gaps in the but that is matter of
01:24:53 the gaps in the but that is matter of the actual actual which is I sense we're talking about that earlier of things if it's denoted in the spec reference then you said who will give the detail when you go back to this back right that's
01:25:06 you go back to this back right that's the purpose of it but you can't see anywhere on this drawing where either mineral world or rockwool is specified even there there would be gaps around the around the window here am I not in this stripe I'm not in a bit you've got
01:25:18 this stripe I'm not in a bit you've got in front of me no but do you agree that the specification and the detailing of this product would be important because the material would form a dual role it
01:25:30 the material would form a dual role it would provide thermal bridging or thermal insulation I should say around the windows and also make an important contribution to the passage of the spread of flame from within a
01:25:41 spread of flame from within a compartment into the cladding but equally could be fire sealed them intimately I think the k10 has to kill it and a little dry lining package this is reference to sealing around yes but we
01:25:54 reference to sealing around yes but we don't see anywhere on this drawing do we we're not what you're showing in front of you no no and my question is do you accept that Studio II should have
01:26:05 accept that Studio II should have identified on this drawing where insulation packing materials were required at the window interfaces and at least all the type of insulation product that would be used
01:26:19 there might be another drying where it is Shawn well I'm asking you on this drawing just just just accept with me that this would be representative you would expect with you but this drawing
01:26:31 would expect with you but this drawing would identify ordinarily we're insulating packing materials were required at window interfaces and also the type of insulation product that should be used not not necessarily this
01:26:45 should be used not not necessarily this covered on another drawing all right but if it wasn't well you could cover in this dry right surely you should cover it in this drawing is this an important
01:26:58 it in this drawing is this an important element of the window design well we can't speak for the person who drew this but on the other hand if it's covered
01:27:11 but on the other hand if it's covered elsewhere then it's Kofi's cover discovered I mean what you don't not everything gets cut and dry
01:27:20 can I ask you next please to look at an offline version of se a zero zero zero zero two four nine nine
01:27:37 which if by chance is the same drawing so they're lucky did you have any looking at it did you ever have any discussions with mr. Sains about the
01:27:48 discussions with mr. Sains about the design of a cavity barrier scheme I did have a conversation but cavity berezkin
01:28:03 when was that conversation please
01:28:13 it would have been it possibly have been that's the handover he was certainly at the point when RFI
01:28:26 he was certainly at the point when RFI was raised by Harley we should I think 17th of September right I see well we'll
01:28:37 17th of September right I see well we'll come back to the run of email correspondence later on just looking at this drawing this drawing shows cavity barriers yeah along in two places
01:28:49 barriers yeah along in two places yes that's right in two places first of all along the line of the compartment floors just to the head of the window and I've just got zoomed in both plant [Music]
01:29:01 [Music] the dry could you zoom out plus we can zoom out I guess um yes we'll have to do that we zoom out so come back that's it
01:29:12 that we zoom out so come back that's it it's not coming visible if you go to the right hand you got the top right you guys go up to the top right that's it you can see the proposed section typical Bay can you scroll it down a bit
01:29:25 Bay can you scroll it down a bit yeah thank you and getting get a little bit more if you would I think that's
01:29:37 as it
01:29:42 if you go to p10 435 on the right hand side yeah you could see cavity fire barrier in line with compartment floor structure yeah see that yes so that's
01:29:55 structure yeah see that yes so that's the first one that's there and there should also be one in line with compartment walls on the columns you'll need for that you'll need to pan out again mister operator if you don't mind
01:30:10 and look at the that's it and then oops no and then move in to go come back into
01:30:24 no and then move in to go come back into the document and focus on the bottom left-hand side there it is right if you see the word proposed plan sill level
01:30:36 see the word proposed plan sill level look further to the right cavity Barrett in line with compartment wall on the column do you see that yes right I think those are the two I wanted to show you and then I'm going back to the right
01:30:48 and then I'm going back to the right hand side I'm sorry to jump around on this document you can see if you go to the top right hand side fourth item down
01:31:04 it says on next to Peter there's a balloon it says P 10 435 ensure horizontal and vertical cavity barriers meet tightly you see that yes and you can see where the little blob or
01:31:16 and you can see where the little blob or little dot goes to and then at the bottom P 10 second from last cavity fire barrier in line with compartment floor structure yes I think we saw that before
01:31:28 structure yes I think we saw that before so there there now when you first saw the employers will come as drawings did you note that at the time you note that
01:31:40 you note that at the time you note that that's where the cavity barriers were I may have done no no okay now can we please go to another document pH yr 0 0
01:31:52 please go to another document pH yr 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 p hy r and then there are six zeros for page 133
01:32:04 this I should tell you what this is this is a an expanded extract from from the drawing we've just been looking at and a
01:32:15 drawing we've just been looking at and a hatched area at the Jam of the window you see the little yellow hatched area at the edge of the window did you
01:32:30 at the edge of the window did you interpret that to be a cavity barrier at the time that little hatched area
01:32:41 I know I don't think I would have interpreted that to be the time and we don't I think see any cavity barrier at sill level around the windows at all do
01:32:52 sill level around the windows at all do we above you can't see the sill on this drawing if you go back now you can't even quite right we can go back to the last one then which is SE a-440 is two
01:33:03 last one then which is SE a-440 is two four nine nine if you go to the if you go to the top right hand top right hand
01:33:16 go to the top right hand top right hand which is proposed section typical Bay and look at that you it's really looking for something that isn't there but just confirm with me that there's nothing there on that drawing yeah that's
01:33:27 there on that drawing yeah that's correct yeah no cavity burial at sea level yes
01:33:31 level yes when you saw this drawing did you notice that omission time
01:33:40 I may have done did you discuss that with Bruce stones I discussed the Kapiti Barrio strategy with Bruce toilets definitely mentioned down there
01:33:51 definitely mentioned down there definitely at the highly sci-fi was issued before but did did mr. stones tell you that there in the cavity
01:34:03 tell you that there in the cavity barrier scheme there was not to be a cavity barrier around the windows my understanding from the discussion with him was that there wasn't a requirement for cavity barrier run the wound was did
01:34:18 for cavity barrier run the wound was did he tell you or did he say to you that the cat design of the cavity barrier scheme had not yet been finalized right what did you yourself think or where did
01:34:31 what did you yourself think or where did you yourself think the the cavity barrier design scheme had got to when you did have the discussion with Bruce tooms about it in September 2014 when added in September 2017 and he was
01:34:44 added in September 2017 and he was obviously at that point who is prompted by Harley's RFI Harley's RFI and proposed our capital barrier scheme for
01:34:55 proposed our capital barrier scheme for for their rainscreen proposal and I recalled they put in that RFI be one teach myself to check with the fire
01:35:06 teach myself to check with the fire officer but I understood building control and the proposal would be well I think the awarding was that and some
01:35:17 think the awarding was that and some fire officers can be funny about these things and they wanted to check what our understanding of the requirement was and beep reporting but then verify their
01:35:29 beep reporting but then verify their proposal showed the proposal was rather that the window units were project or projecting into the rain screen so if
01:35:40 projecting into the rain screen so if you like the window this is the window and they were proposing cavity bearers at mid-level between all the windows and the reason I think I think see having
01:35:53 the reason I think I think see having that I fight in front of me the reason was their belief was that that system was adequate on the basis that addressed the chimney effect and therefore they
01:36:04 the chimney effect and therefore they were they were breaking up the chimney in fact the window we're projected which means we break up that effect or not / floor basis I think I didn't agree with
01:36:15 floor basis I think I didn't agree with that although if we knew the cakes all the subsequent emails you see that that's the primary concern I'm addressing the chimney effect which I think friends I'd also argue that if you
01:36:28 think friends I'd also argue that if you if you opened up most buildings are a lot of buildings now you probably would find that configuration or something akin to that configuration my personal
01:36:39 akin to that configuration my personal belief is that that wasn't adequate and they should at least be on a compartment basis which is what Bruce understood employers requirements we thank you for
01:36:53 employers requirements we thank you for that we will come back to the detail yeah discussions about that of September 2014 I think on the next occasion can I just move on then to a slightly
01:37:04 just move on then to a slightly different topic in terms of drawings and I thank you please to go to the offline version of se a four zeros to five five
01:37:15 version of se a four zeros to five five one two five five one please and I want to ask you about the crown detailing so just a few questions about that if I may
01:37:26 just a few questions about that if I may on the right-hand side of the drawing I'm afraid we'll have to blow it up a just a bit more is this is a drawing of the facade where it meets the crown of
01:37:37 the facade where it meets the crown of the tower if we pull up that part of the drawing is is that right yes yes and we can see on the top right hand side that
01:37:51 can see on the top right hand side that it says
01:37:55 it says design of the crown TBC by architect that's at the very top yes
01:38:01 yes and then there's a ring a sort of dotted line ring around where around the crown yes yes yes and is it correct that no detailed design work had been carried
01:38:12 detailed design work had been carried out on the crown by the time the studio II got to stage II expense what you mean by detailed design I mean there is the design there I think what that sings you
01:38:29 design there I think what that sings you wouldn't call that detailed design would you no no
01:38:32 you no no say would you confirm with me that that by the time one get one got to stage II there hadn't yet as yet been no detailed design work on the crown there's an
01:38:43 design work on the crown there's an implied design but there's no detail design all right so at the time you came in is it fair to say that not a great deal of thought had gone into the design of the crown beyond what we see on this
01:38:54 of the crown beyond what we see on this I think it's unfair see not a great deal of thought because when you look through the sequence of the planning these planning conversations it was clearly an
01:39:05 planning conversations it was clearly an item that generated a lot of discussion and so this development in in terms of what that crown should be what the scale of it should be and so on one of the
01:39:16 of it should be and so on one of the things that Bruce mentioned to me in the bush that was handed over it was the loser is an issue to resolve the sad maintenance in relation to that crown design and so yes that's something that
01:39:29 design and so yes that's something that was being carried through to the neck to the next stage of work yes now looking at the left hand side of the drawing there's a hatched area
01:39:45 okay so the let's not the whole drawing I'm so sorry the left-hand side of them yeah yeah there's a hat do you see it within the crown yes ring if you like there's a hashed area
01:39:59 ring if you like there's a hashed area yes yeah then there's a there I'm so sorry I've confused you there are
01:40:10 sorry I've confused you there are actually two hatched Harriers as a hatched area in the ring and then below the ring there's a more tightly defined hatched area yes I asked you what that
01:40:22 hatched area yes I asked you what that is is that a cavity barrier at the top of the compartment head of the window where the facade cladding meets the crown yes that's what it leads to be years right do you agree that a scheme
01:40:34 years right do you agree that a scheme design should have been established by the tender stage scheme sign for well let me just ask you of prior question does this drawing while we're on it show
01:40:46 does this drawing while we're on it show you where that cavity burrow would connect with any vertical cavity barrier yeah mr. this supplied dotted line going backwards to the vertical on the column
01:40:59 backwards to the vertical on the column that so that is just just to be clear which which one is that will you see the dense the dense hatch yes and this this is only by implication
01:41:11 yes and this this is only by implication because you can see on the section adjacent food is actually more clearly marked but this you see dotted line coming out into the columns on and then
01:41:23 coming out into the columns on and then it continues down
01:41:27 and that that I see and that that's the vertical cavity barriers I mean that's to me what it implies you say to you did you at the time did you did you look at this and think that's a vertical cavity barrier where it meets the horizontal
01:41:39 barrier where it meets the horizontal cavity but I had me I've done at the head of the window I meant I'm right okay do you agreed was going to the question that a scheme design should have been established by the tender
01:41:50 have been established by the tender stage for the cavity powers including the cap for the cabin cavity barriers yes well I think the water there was a
01:42:02 yes well I think the water there was a cavity by a strategy in the tenders right did mr. Sainz tell you when you came into the project the design of the
01:42:14 came into the project the design of the crown had not yet been finalized and there was further work to do on it who's he was as I mentioned he was aware of SAP access issues that me me you have
01:42:31 of SAP access issues that me me you have implications on it
01:42:40 yes now we've seen quite a bit of the drawings that have been done do you agree that by the time the project and you weren't involved at the time the
01:42:52 you weren't involved at the time the project went out to tender but would you agree that when you came into the project at the time it went out to tender studio eased drawings and specification in relation to the
01:43:03 specification in relation to the cladding should have been far more advanced in the respects we've just examined a particular in relation to cavity barriers no no you don't do you
01:43:17 cavity barriers no no you don't do you agree that in those respects things like cavity barriers identification of materials for insulation in the infill panels too much design development was
01:43:28 panels too much design development was required at the construction stage did you agree with that I don't did mr. Sains tell you when you came into the
01:43:40 Sains tell you when you came into the project that a compliance review in other words a review of the applicable Building Regulations had approved approved guidance had already been undertaken in respect of the refurbishment and the and the external
01:43:53 refurbishment and the and the external facade in particular I don't know did he did he tell you anything about the Building Regulations and associated guidance
01:44:10 well let me know even more specific question to you did he tell you that a compliance evaluation needed to be undertaken no no and do we take it that you yourself did not do a compliance
01:44:21 you yourself did not do a compliance evaluation prior to substantive commencing substantive construction work well as I stated um I assumed in witters who employs requirements and tender
01:44:35 who employs requirements and tender stage package to be compliant
01:44:40 I see so you yeah that may answer my next few questions does it follow from that that you didn't take any steps yourself to assess the tender drawings
01:44:51 yourself to assess the tender drawings for statutory or regulatory compliance
01:45:00 no I didn't undertake any did the handover by mr. Sains with you did that session include any did he cover with you any dealings that he had had so far
01:45:11 you any dealings that he had had so far with Building Control not Pacific no but did you take any steps yourself to ascertain the level of Building Control involvement up to date well the point of
01:45:26 involvement up to date well the point of which I became involved in the project initially was because I was using advocacy building control on the CAO project so the idea was that I would speak to the individuals involved there
01:45:39 speak to the individuals involved there to get them to quote for the motivation things on their service to the patient on the ground fell to answer your question which i think is specifically
01:45:50 question which i think is specifically relating to building control over and prior to innovation I was aware those the consultation has had to go on on yes right
01:45:59 right did you take steps yourself to ascertain what level of building control involvement remained to be done the
01:46:11 involvement remained to be done the building control
01:46:15 therapists push the vation yes that's what required to be done right I see but in particular did you have a discussion with mr. Sains about about what it was that he wanted Building Control to look
01:46:26 that he wanted Building Control to look at and when but those are two distinct time periods so he used pre contracts of
01:46:38 time periods so he used pre contracts of pre innovation period where he deployed Building Control to assist in his design and then it's a separate appointment with Building Control to ride and post Novation yes and then it's a separate
01:46:50 Novation yes and then it's a separate service yes I'm asking you at the moment you came into the pro to the project did you take any steps to work out what building control involvement and heat
01:47:01 building control involvement and heat was left to be done I think I understood building but I understood the building control involvement to be that associated with personal issues yes yes
01:47:14 associated with personal issues yes yes and were you told that as of August 2014 Building Control had not been provided with details of the cladding system were
01:47:25 with details of the cladding system were you told that categorically no would you be surprised to learn that they hadn't
01:47:48 Isis well I understood that building control would have had conversations about the scheming generally whether that was specifically about in cladding I mean the general conversations you'd
01:47:59 I mean the general conversations you'd have with both and control Jim the development of the scheme would be related to the high-level fire strategy to assist you with that or to assist you then specific queries and in relation to
01:48:15 specific way I'm one and then five usually but obviously can spill into other areas sorry and be one and be fine yes thank you now I'm going to change
01:48:26 yes thank you now I'm going to change now to a new topic mr. chairman we've had one break this afternoon I'm happy to continue with the way if the witness is happy to continue to 4:30 yes how do
01:48:38 is happy to continue to 4:30 yes how do you feel about that mr. cope and how can I take a short break you can yeah I'm back at 4:00 yes all right cool yes
01:48:49 back at 4:00 yes all right cool yes leave us know and we'll have the short break right
01:49:01 so back up for them please
01:56:35 right if you ask mr. Crawford to come back please
01:56:47 roast Crawford yes thank you mr. Crawford I'm going to ask you some questions now about the building regulations and approved document b will come back in due course later in your
01:56:59 come back in due course later in your evidence not today I'm afraid two points of detail when we look at the different elements of the over cladding scheme but I just want to be sure that you know where I'm going yes can we first please have up approved document b CLG five zeros two to four at
01:57:15 document b CLG five zeros two to four at page 95 and here we have section twelve construction of external walls and under
01:57:28 construction of external walls and under 12.5 on page 95 you can see that 12.5 has a heading external wall construction you see that yes and just read with me
01:57:40 you see that yes and just read with me it says the external envelope of a building should not provide a medium for fire spread if it is likely to be a risk to health or safety the use of combustible materials in the cladding
01:57:53 combustible materials in the cladding system and extensive cavities may present such a risk in tall buildings you see that yes and then it goes on external walls should either meet the guidance given in paragraphs twelve
01:58:05 guidance given in paragraphs twelve point six to twelve point nine or meet the performance criteria given in the BRE report fire performance of external thermal insulation four walls of multi-story buildings BR one three five
01:58:18 multi-story buildings BR one three five four cladding systems using full-scale test data from BSA for one for one of 2002 or BSA for one for two of 2005 do
01:58:31 2002 or BSA for one for two of 2005 do you see that yes we do that we need the rest of it and I've read that out in full to you because it's it's obviously important my first question is this were you familiar with this paragraph of
01:58:42 you familiar with this paragraph of approved document b at the time of your involvement in the Grenville tower project
01:58:50 I think I probably would have been yes you you probably would have been yeah do you recall actually looking at it at any time during your involvement in the Grenfell project well I would have
01:59:03 Grenfell project well I would have consult a db2 document so it would have
01:59:13 more like I'm 40 we'll come to diagram 14 did you consult this paragraph in particular do you think understood that
01:59:29 particular do you think understood that right so did you understand from this at the time that ADB proved document B and 12.5 of it contains two potential routes
01:59:43 12.5 of it contains two potential routes to compliance with the functional requirement of the building regulations either compliance with paragraphs twelve point six to twelve point nine or a test
01:59:54 point six to twelve point nine or a test a full-scale test to meet the performance criteria in the BRE report B are 135 using full-scale test data from
02:00:05 are 135 using full-scale test data from BSA for 1/4 did you understand that well there are more rich to compliance than just but there are and can you tell us
02:00:18 just but there are and can you tell us what they are you have our fire engineered solution for example yes yeah Desktop study yes
02:00:29 for example yes yeah Desktop study yes it's been done yes now you say there are just right there are basically four routes therefore to compliance at the time of the grenfell project to
02:00:40 time of the grenfell project to compliance for twelve point six to twelve point nine or a full-scale test or a fire engineer solution or a desktop study is that we or is that that's my understanding of it although I've been
02:00:51 understanding of it although I've been to all right I don't mean from that sound right doing what be our one three five
02:00:56 five well we'll come to that in due course um which of the four routes that you've identified with me did you understand was to be followed on the grand felt our project in respect of
02:01:09 the grand felt our project in respect of the madding
02:01:25 I think when I spoke with ik solver
02:01:30 mister being 17th 18th of September to confirm what from the compliance of the
02:01:43 confirm what from the compliance of the cell text installation and the boys kept its backup strategy I understanding from the conversation with ik solvers did did
02:01:57 the conversation with ik solvers did did it was what was being proposed boys compliant I'm not sure if I entirely understood on which method they were using average basis they assumed to be
02:02:08 using average basis they assumed to be compliant I think I probably assumed the linear route but I'm I think having said that's a mix over of a massive um if a massive wealth of knowledge in terms of
02:02:20 massive wealth of knowledge in terms of similar projects and they may have may have had the confidence to see what they said based on desktop studies previous projects similar projects and one
02:02:32 projects similar projects and one buildups well in that Robert Long's I just want to try and tease out what the answer to my question it is mr. Crawford forgive me you I
02:02:44 it is mr. Crawford forgive me you I think say that you assumed it or probably assumed a linear route can I just be clear about what that means
02:02:58 either the the Linea return he's following a db2 following a db2 do you mean paragraphs twelve point six to
02:03:09 mean paragraphs twelve point six to twelve point nine and they'd be part of that well we just back up a little bit we've been through the four routes to compliance either twelve point six to
02:03:21 compliance either twelve point six to twelve point nine or meeting the performance criteria in 1/35 or a fire engineered solution or a desktop study let's just take those in in reverse
02:03:32 let's just take those in in reverse order did you think that a desktop study was being used in order to allow the rainscreen cladding system on Grenfell to be compliant with approved
02:03:43 Grenfell to be compliant with approved document I wasn't aware of one know we're you aware of a fire engineered solution to ensure that the cladding system on Grenfell was compliant with the proof document B depends on your
02:03:55 the proof document B depends on your definition of that but I wouldn't say I was explicitly aware of one did anybody ever tell you you went to and you weren't aware of one were you no no so that then leaves the only two candidates namely twelve point six to
02:04:08 candidates namely twelve point six to twelve point nine or a full-scale test to meet the BRE 135 criteria which of those two routes
02:04:21 135 criteria which of those two routes to compliance with a DB did you think was being pursued the linear or potentially in the background desktop and by linear you mean which eighty
02:04:35 and by linear you mean which eighty Peter will you say a DB to what do you mean what do you mean twelve point six to twelve point nine or do you mean
02:04:46 to twelve point nine or do you mean meeting the performance criteria in BRE one three four so yeah that's the reason meeting top my sites to talk about nine right I see and that's what you understood was the route to compliance
02:04:58 understood was the route to compliance with a DB at the time of your involvement my understanding of the route to compliance was from the conversations I had with the fire specialist thank silver
02:05:12 learned about the 18th of September well we'll come to that later do you know
02:05:23 we'll come to that later do you know when the choice of route of compliance namely compliance with twelve point six to twelve point nine was made when the
02:05:37 to twelve point nine was made when the choice of route appliance did you see yes I'd my understanding state which have been done at the boys requirement tender stage done at the employer's
02:05:51 tender stage done at the employer's requirements that done part done for within the stage do you know I'm sorry at the stage report Stage II report do you know who was involved in making that
02:06:03 you know who was involved in making that decision well again this comes back to what said the systems that were proposed up to that point I attend her
02:06:14 up to that point I attend her information I employers requirements I'd have understood to being compliant therefore the people working on that and putting together that information respect their drawings it's on it
02:06:25 respect their drawings it's on it understands that the what they were proposing the understood to be compliant yeah did you ever yourself ask anybody when you looked at the tender documentation including the
02:06:37 tender documentation including the employers requirements and the drawings which route to compliance with approved document b are we adopting i don't the coal did you ever discuss with bruce
02:06:50 coal did you ever discuss with bruce sones
02:06:51 sones as part of your hand over or even later than that which route to compliance you were adopting not pacific ritter right let's look on now that we've got
02:07:02 right let's look on now that we've got the linear route to twelve point six if we can just look at the bottom of the page and then over to the next page twelve point six says the external
02:07:13 twelve point six says the external surfaces of walls should meet the provisions in diagram forty where a mixed-use building includes assembly and recreation purpose groups accomodation the external surfaces of
02:07:25 accomodation the external surfaces of wall should meet the diagram read the provisions in diagram 40 C now candidates ask you about that if you look at diagram 48 first of all that's at page 97 you can see that it's
02:07:45 at page 97 you can see that it's entitled provisions for external surfaces or walls yes yes and if you look at item D you can see that there
02:07:58 look at item D you can see that there are a any building be any building other than C C is assembly or recreation building more than one story and D is any building and its building height 18
02:08:11 any building and its building height 18 meters or more and then any e any building up to 18 meters above ground and any dimension over 18 meters and both of those D and E are shaded in with
02:08:23 both of those D and E are shaded in with a dark shade do you see yes D is completely shaded in dark and E is shaded in dark above 18 meters and above 18 meters you can see that that
02:08:36 above 18 meters you can see that that has class naught in national class or Class B s 3 D 2 or better European class yes yeah and II just to be clear is the
02:08:49 yes yeah and II just to be clear is the requirement for any building which is more than a meter one meter I think it is from a relevant boundary thousand millimeters yeah so it's clear from that
02:09:05 millimeters yeah so it's clear from that that above 18 meters the external wall surface classification should be national class naught or euro Class B s 3 D 2 or better correct now does that
02:09:16 3 D 2 or better correct now does that something you understood at the time of your involvement in yes right did you have a view at the time about what external surfaces of walls meant
02:09:33 yeah walls and it sounds it sounds simple but when you refer to external surfaces of walls what are you actually talking
02:09:45 walls what are you actually talking about you mean body of climbing so you see the main body of cladding so then would that include the insulation and the the entirety of the rain screen or
02:09:57 the the entirety of the rain screen or just the surface the outside surface of the rain screen I think it's in screen the internal and external surface of the rain screen yes right anything else
02:10:09 rain screen yes right anything else I see so it would that be the outward and the inward facing elements of the panel yeah I think that's my understanding do you think that's your
02:10:21 understanding do you think that's your understanding of what doing the best you can with your recollection was that your understanding at the time did yes I think leverage matters okay now going back to page 96 if you can please
02:10:34 back to page 96 if you can please looking at 12.7 that says insulation materials stroke products and it says in
02:10:45 materials stroke products and it says in a building with a story 18 meters or more above ground level any insulation product filler material not including gaskets sealants and similar etc used in
02:10:57 gaskets sealants and similar etc used in the external wall construction should be of limited combust ability see appendix a this restriction does not apply to masonry cavity wall construction which complies with diagram 34 in section 9
02:11:10 were you familiar with that provision at the time of your involvement in grenfell in the Granville tower project yes what under what did you understand
02:11:22 yes what under what did you understand by the phrase limited combust ability in that paragraph [Music]
02:11:31 well everything is combustible so limited possibilities basically product that is has combust ability in
02:11:47 that is has combust ability in some fashion so for example in phenolic or PRRS is usually an additive and through the product that all in Tunisia
02:12:06 it doesn't readily make Knights or or spread flame right did you understand that the limited
02:12:17 did you understand that the limited combust ability or a material of limited conversed ability had an actual definition set out in in a DB at Appendix A I mean is a reference to
02:12:33 Appendix A I mean is a reference to Appendix II there I can see that
02:12:39 I don't recall you don't recall did you recall knowing that there was a specific test for limited combust ability okay
02:12:50 test for limited combust ability okay did you understand that when a building has a story with a floor level over 18 meters in height that paragraph 12.7 of approved document b applies to the whole
02:13:01 approved document b applies to the whole of the external wall of the building and not only to those parts above 80 meters
02:13:16 sorry yes you know did you understand that when a building has stories above 18 meters in height yeah then the requirements of paragraph 12 point 7 for limited combust ability apply to the
02:13:27 limited combust ability apply to the entirety of the external wall and not only those parts of the external wall above 18 meters this is slightly
02:13:38 above 18 meters this is slightly contradictory to the diagram 14 although you can see that that relates to the external cladding and the national
02:13:49 external cladding and the national classification of the BS 3 D 2 rating well you say it's slightly contradictory at the time of the ground fell project
02:14:00 at the time of the ground fell project did you think in your head that though there was that requirement that the entirety of the external wall construction had to contain insulation of limited combust ability but I'm not
02:14:13 of limited combust ability but I'm not I'm not seeing where it actually says that I'm asking for your understanding at the time but did you have an understanding at the time about where on the building observation yeah and I
02:14:25 the building observation yeah and I suppose that's about my point in terms of conversation installation say so to
02:14:37 of conversation installation say so to ask the question in a slightly different way where on the building did you think you needed to put insulation which was of limited combust ability and within the main cladding if indeed in screen on
02:14:51 the main cladding if indeed in screen on the whole of the building or only on the part of the building above 18 meters
02:15:00 I'm not sure but it doesn't actually there's nothing there to mean it says it should be there always opposed to above 18 know what I'm really asking is
02:15:11 18 know what I'm really asking is whether you had any understanding about that at all or maybe you didn't maybe you didn't think about it oh right did you have a view at the time about what the word filler meant in paragraph 12
02:15:22 the word filler meant in paragraph 12 point 7 no right finally in 12.8 you can see under the heading cavity barriers it says cavity
02:15:34 heading cavity barriers it says cavity barriers should be provided in accordance with section 9 we're going to go through section 9 in detail later on in your evidence mr. Crawford but just at this stage can I just ask you what
02:15:46 at this stage can I just ask you what you understood at the time of your work on Grenfell tower about cavity barriers was did you understand that the purpose of cavity barriers was to limit fire spread within the cavity yes did you
02:16:04 spread within the cavity yes did you also understand that it was to limit fire spread from a compartment into a cavity
02:16:20 well let's just say I understood the client for capita banners as defined in section 9 I see and moving back to page 95 and the alternative route to
02:16:32 95 and the alternative route to compliance that set out in paragraph 12.5 that we looked at a few moments ago you could see the reference there to the performance criteria in BRE 135 and the
02:16:44 performance criteria in BRE 135 and the full-scale test data from BSA 4 1 4 and I think we've agreed that you you didn't think that was the route being being pursued for Grandville tower but we'll look at PR 135 in a moment but at the
02:16:59 look at PR 135 in a moment but at the time of your involvement did you investigate whether there were any BR 1 3 5 classification reports for the cladding system that had actually been specified for Grenfell tower did you
02:17:17 specified for Grenfell tower did you ever do so once the specifications become fixed for RS 5000 as it became for the insulation and rena bond PE 55
02:17:28 for the insulation and rena bond PE 55 for the rain screen I think I'm I think I defer to compliance in that respect to x over because I thought beyond my expertise right we'll come to your
02:17:41 expertise right we'll come to your interactions with x over later in your evidence can I move on to the next heading which is BCA guidance um I want to ask you a little bit about that are
02:17:52 to ask you a little bit about that are you familiar with the Building Control Alliance well were you at the time of your involvement in grenfell familiar with something called the Building Control Alliance no you weren't can we take it from that that you
02:18:04 can we take it from that that you weren't familiar with the Building Control alliances guidance documents for the construction industry no and it would follow therefore that you weren't completely familiar with the Building
02:18:16 completely familiar with the Building Control alliances guidance in June 2014 use of combustible cladding materials on residential buildings
02:18:28 were you we've covered the CW CT guidance or standard I think you said you weren't familiar with that were you
02:18:39 you weren't familiar with that were you familiar with a 2011 CW CT technical note about combustible materials in cladding systems no I mean come back to
02:18:52 cladding systems no I mean come back to the CW CTOs aware of it in the capacity of their is employees a requirement within the specification a requirement
02:19:05 within the specification a requirement to meet the requirements of it therefore competent specialist subcontractor would meet those standards right didn't mean I knew pacifically what those standards were I see it's like I mean see so can
02:19:17 were I see it's like I mean see so can we take it that your understanding of studio is role at the time was that even though the c WT c CW c t-- standard have been specified in the NBS spec you left
02:19:29 been specified in the NBS spec you left it to harley to be familiar with the standard well there's a lie and apply its principle yesyes WCT accredited so new bid know right and you didn't think
02:19:41 new bid know right and you didn't think it was any part of your role just to spot check by reference to that standard the the work they had done well it was by the fact that it's in the
02:19:52 by the fact that it's in the specification and employers requirements and they were required to meet that standard and how would you go about checking whether they had done that if you hadn't realized never all to check
02:20:03 you hadn't realized never all to check it all to comply to it it's different right so who was going to check to your way of thinking who was going to check and supervise whether Harley had
02:20:16 and supervise whether Harley had understood and applied the contents of the C WCT standard when doing their work well if someone was going to check it be the principal applicant
02:20:28 the principal applicant and building control ultimately check ultimately building control you say anybody else no specialist item I mean
02:20:42 anybody else no specialist item I mean that's still point of having the specialist now I want to ask you one or two questions about BRE 135 if I can and can I ask you to be shown that it's at BR e zero zero zero five five five four
02:20:59 and
02:21:08 if we can go to the second page please we can see the the front page of the bit of the publication and then page three that we get the year of publication page
02:21:23 that we get the year of publication page three please yes this is a document fully entitled fire performance of external thermal insulation four walls of multi-story buildings and this is what we we saw referred to specifically
02:21:34 what we we saw referred to specifically in the building regulations themselves authored by Sarah Caldwell and Brian Martin and it comes from the death the office of the Deputy Prime Minister and it's dated 2003 I'm not sure you can you
02:21:48 it's dated 2003 I'm not sure you can you could see that at the top right hand corner of the page were you aware of this document or the existence of this document during your work on the dreadful tower project
02:21:59 I'm so sorry would you repeat that on I haven't seen that you haven't no I see have you ever seen it before I've shown it to you today I've seen VR 1 3 5 since since the fire
02:22:12 I've seen VR 1 3 5 since since the fire yes but not not not I don't think this fashion no there was a you're right there was a later version in 2013 but did you see the 2013 version at the time
02:22:23 did you see the 2013 version at the time of your work on the ground floor project no and and I take it not this version either let me just see if I can pick up one or two of the principles in here to see if you're familiar with them could
02:22:35 see if you're familiar with them could you turn please to page 9
02:22:41 mechanisms of fire spread and you can see there that the authors have set out in figure two mechanisms for external fire spread by way of the external
02:22:52 fire spread by way of the external cladding system and if you just take a moment to look at that you get rapid fire spread on the left-hand side and wrap and restricted fire spread on the right-hand side and it essentially shows
02:23:08 right-hand side and it essentially shows you on the left-hand side flames breaking out of the compartment and attacking adjacent windows and then causing secondary fires up the building and there's a orange arrow and it says
02:23:19 and there's a orange arrow and it says if the external cladding contributes to the flame spread there is a risk of secondary fire spread to all levels we can see that were you familiar with at
02:23:30 can see that were you familiar with at least the principle that where you have an external cladding system that the risk of fire spread illustrated by the diagram exists or existed but I told you
02:23:44 diagram exists or existed but I told you haven't seen this this document no but did you understand that the risk that is being explained by this diagram was one that you as a project project architect
02:23:59 that you as a project project architect as called had to be aware of
02:24:07 I mean I think I think that's something that you'd assume that's you know fire broke out and developed fire there's a risk of it that's what you ask but I'm
02:24:20 risk of it that's what you ask but I'm really asking but whether you were familiar with the principles which lie behind this diagram
02:24:35 yeah and this if an external I think it's self-evident something can you go
02:24:48 it's self-evident something can you go please to page 10 paragraph 3
02:24:54 interaction with external envelope and under cavities it says if flames become confined or restricted by entering cavities within the external cladding system they will become elongated as
02:25:07 system they will become elongated as they seek oxygen and fuel to support the combustion process this process can lead to flame extension of 5 to 10 times that of the original flame lengths and then in bold it says regardless of the
02:25:19 in bold it says regardless of the materials you use to line the cavities this may enable fire to spread rapidly unseen through the external cladding system if appropriate fire barriers have not been provided my question is were
02:25:32 not been provided my question is were you aware of this guidance or the risks described there at the time of your involvement in in the Grenfell project I've told you in terms of my awareness of this this guidance but the principle
02:25:45 of this this guidance but the principle yeah so somewhere off right and then under paragraph 5 just below that under the heading fire service intervention it
02:25:56 the heading fire service intervention it says where the external cladding system is not significantly contributing to the fire spread of fire from one story to the should say next I think then intervention by emergency services
02:26:07 intervention by emergency services should prevent continued fire propagation by way of the building envelope and then this however where the end the external cladding system is contributing to the fire propagation rate the potential exists for the fire
02:26:18 rate the potential exists for the fire to affect multiple stories simultaneously thus making firefighting more difficult and again I know you weren't aware of this guidance but were you aware of the risks described there
02:26:44 I thought you that's some extent self-evident page 17 then please page 17
02:26:56 self-evident page 17 then please page 17 third paragraph down on page 17 under the heading system specific details you
02:27:07 the heading system specific details you can see it says this is just about halfway down the page once the far is within the cavity do you see that this is once the fire is within the cavity it may propagate unseen through the system
02:27:18 may propagate unseen through the system if adequate fire barriers are not employed this may result in significant risk of system collapse or fire breakout at significant distances from the fire origin now again I know you weren't
02:27:29 origin now again I know you weren't aware of the document but we're you aware of the risks that this document is describing I think understates cavity iron cavity bio requirements we use the
02:27:40 iron cavity bio requirements we use the term fire barrier in the context of section 9 of ADP right and then staying on that page if you look under the
02:27:52 on that page if you look under the heading performance of materials in fire under external panel the very bottom of the page do you see it says materials used for external panels used can vary
02:28:05 used for external panels used can vary from non combustible through to combustible and then there's a first dot and it says non combustible materials and then it goes over the page to page
02:28:17 and then it goes over the page to page 18 and if you just go over to page 18 it says five lines down from the top metal
02:28:28 says five lines down from the top metal panel such as aluminium may fall from the system strengthening is affected by the local fire source and we also melt generating molten metal debris if exposed directly to the sustained plain
02:28:39 exposed directly to the sustained plain envelope did you did you know the risks that describe there when you were it became involved in the ground floor project again I'd see that
02:28:52 project again I'd see that largely self-evident I see and if you go back a page - you go back a page I'm so
02:29:04 back a page - you go back a page I'm so sorry yes to the performance of materials in fire insulation it says the performance of insulating material when subjected to this type of fire scenario has been outlined in the previous section typically non
02:29:15 previous section typically non combustible materials are used in these systems as it is difficult to prevent fire entering the cavity and spreading through the insulating material and again same question were you familiar
02:29:26 again same question were you familiar with that principle which is described there at the time of your involvement in Grenfell I don't think the evidence supports bilk goodness so we argued
02:29:39 supports bilk goodness so we argued typical combustible typically limited
02:29:57 right okay well we may have to think about that another time mr. chairman is that a convenient moment yes we are you think suddenly from my notes I think we are actually doing the topic obviously a
02:30:12 are actually doing the topic obviously a convenient moment to end for the day now mr. Crawford we don't sit on Friday this I suspect you've been told that anyways so I'm gonna have to ask you to come back
02:30:21 back resume your evidence on Monday please yeah ten o'clock and once again please don't talk to anyone about more evidence or anything related to it there was a
02:30:32 or anything related to it there was a weekend okay right thank you very much you like given the UH show she'll look after you
02:30:47 good thank you very much Monday morning at 10 o'clock thank you very much Joe