Cross-examination of Bruce Soames from Studio E architectural practice about their role in the Grenfell refurbishment design and interactions with fire consultant Exova.
00:00:28 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to continue today hearing evidence from mr. Soames of Studio II so can we have mr. Simms in
00:00:39 Studio II so can we have mr. Simms in peace
00:00:51 good morning mr. sins good morning need to continue yes thank you yes Miss Granger
00:00:57 Granger good morning mr. James can I just explain what we're going to do in the first part of this morning we were looking at X / and studio ease involvement with X over yesterday and
00:01:08 involvement with X over yesterday and I'm going to carry on on that topic in particularly going chronologically through what occurred with X over in terms of what studio we were saying to Rex over what information they were providing and what information you were
00:01:19 providing and what information you were getting back from it's over is that is that understood yes so I want to pick it up in August 2012 so on the 16th of August 2012 a draft of
00:01:31 so on the 16th of August 2012 a draft of the existing fire safety strategy was produced by X / can we just turn that up that's at TMO one triple zero 195
00:02:02 we got that tma-1 triple zero 195
00:02:22 yes thank you so we can see there from that frontispiece that this is the existing fire safety strategy for the grant for project and it's dated we can see on the right-hand side at the bottom
00:02:34 see on the right-hand side at the bottom 16th of August 2012 do you see that yes we also see that it's got the draft watermark across it can you see that and if we look at page 2 of this we can see
00:02:48 if we look at page 2 of this we can see there that it's been prepared by Kate Cooney can you see that - in a box and reviewed by dr. Claire Barker do you see that now we don't need to look at this
00:03:03 that now we don't need to look at this existing fire safety strategy but I want to ask you some questions about what happened after you receive this so if we can bring up se a six zeroes 43
00:03:22 and what I'd like to do is look at the second email in the chain at the bottom of that page so on the 16th of August 2012 so this is the day that you received the fire
00:03:33 the day that you received the fire existing fire strategy you email mr. Cooney of X over and you say Kate I started this just as your email arrived
00:03:44 started this just as your email arrived we are submitting for planning next week and need some confidence the stair and escape provisions will work please can you comment on the introduction of residential units on the mezzanine level - do you see that there yeah and then
00:03:58 - do you see that there yeah and then can we just scroll up to the top of this page she responds to you later that day she says hi Bruce the document we have
00:04:10 she says hi Bruce the document we have sent through today's for the existing building I will take a look at the plans you have sent through in the morning and we'll give you a call to discuss do you see that there so she's saying there
00:04:21 see that there so she's saying there that she's going to call you I'm just giving you the context for this now I am now going to turn to an email that you wouldn't have seen at the time so this is EXO four zeros one two seven nine
00:04:49 and what I'd like you to do is just read that email to yourself first of all
00:05:34 okay okay and and I want to ask you some questions about this so she's to go over it one more time in terms of what she's said in this email I've just spoken to
00:05:46 said in this email I've just spoken to briefs in relation to the attached we have just sent through the existing fire strategy for it basically 1970s 24 story residential tower with non-residential
00:05:57 residential tower with non-residential use to the first four floors they are now adding additional levels which merges uses around a single stair not great basically I have told him we can
00:06:09 great basically I have told him we can massage the proposal to something acceptable with separation lobbies etc but that there are approvals risks to the project on the firefighting shaft MOA front James has been to site and
00:06:22 MOA front James has been to site and given some advice but I don't know what he said but it would appear not much they are making an existing crack condition worse so it's a matter of working the worst bits out and making
00:06:33 working the worst bits out and making the new stuff worth no sprinklers wanted LA BC Building Control Kensington and Chelsea do we have any contacts there so you see that so this is an email she
00:06:44 so you see that so this is an email she paid Cooney is sending to her colleague Andrew Martin on the 17th of August 2012 after she's just spoken to you you see that yep now did she discuss her
00:06:57 that yep now did she discuss her concerns with you about merging uses around a single stare do you recall that I Kate Cooney yes without referring to
00:07:15 I Kate Cooney yes without referring to my statement I can't recall if she was the one who came to the meet and she would I think being the one who came to the meeting I think team meeting yeah I think I spoke to Claire Barker and Kate
00:07:26 think I spoke to Claire Barker and Kate kuhnian different times
00:07:31 I don't recall the conversation I mean sorry yeah no if you don't recall it and
00:07:43 say do you recall Kate Cooney ever suggesting to studio either x over wood and try and do something to get around the problem posed by the fact that
00:07:56 the problem posed by the fact that Building Control might be otherwise likely to reject the the smoke ventilation system and other proposals for Grenville tower can I just give you
00:08:11 for Grenville tower can I just give you my impression reading this yes I was not aware yes I don't think I was aware of it even the report with reference to the
00:08:33 it even the report with reference to the sentence basically I've told him we can massage the proposal to something acceptable with separation lobbies etc do you ever recall anyone at xover
00:08:44 do you ever recall anyone at xover saying to you we can massage the proposals do you remember that one said no but but the the I do recall that this
00:08:57 no but but the the I do recall that this issue of different uses sharing us an escape did come up yes subsequently yes I wasn't aware there was anything fundamental behind a
00:09:09 was anything fundamental behind a fundamental problem with it yes I thought it could be dealt with yes it's certainly something x over deal with in their feisty and explain they think that it can be dealt with yeah and
00:09:20 think that it can be dealt with yeah and we will be asking them about that
00:09:32 where we've got em OE front referred to in this email would that be would you understand that to mean means of escape
00:09:42 yeah and with regard to the sentence they are making an existing crap condition worse so it's a matter of
00:09:54 condition worse so it's a matter of working the worst bits out and making the new stuff work do you see that yeah again do you recall anyone from x over ever saying to you you're making an existing crap condition worse as i said
00:10:14 existing crap condition worse as i said if i was to summarize my responses i don't recall that level of concern about the existing yeah I think I think it's understood that the building would have complied but it wouldn't then in 2012 if
00:10:33 complied but it wouldn't then in 2012 if it had been built in 2012 yes and then there's a comment at the end and towards the end there where they say no
00:10:45 the end there where they say no sprinklers wanted do you see that yep did miss Keaney or anyone x over ever discuss the provision of sprinklers in
00:10:56 discuss the provision of sprinklers in the building with you do you have any recollection of that I don't have recollection about sprinklers I I know I know it comes up later with Terry but at
00:11:08 know it comes up later with Terry but at this point I don't recall the sprinklers being discussed or raised all
00:11:15 as a as it something that may be needed I don't recall and I said it wasn't discussed I just can't recall was there
00:11:27 discussed I just can't recall was there any ever any a suggestion to you my ex over that studio a ought to lobby the client and and suggest that sprinklers were advisable no no that I think I
00:11:42 were advisable no no that I think I would have registered that yeah okay I want to go to another email chain again on the subject of just sticking with sprinklers for a moment can we bring up
00:11:53 sprinklers for a moment can we bring up se a four zero six seven four two and can we look at the email at the bottom of the page now this is an email on the
00:12:08 of the page now this is an email on the 29th of November 2012 from Terry Ashton to Adrien Jess your colleague so you wouldn't have seen this at the time and he says something about a meeting on the
00:12:20 he says something about a meeting on the 6th of December and then looking at what he says with regard to the proposed changes this is in relation to revised layouts that's the topic of the email yeah can we just look at what he says in
00:12:31 yeah can we just look at what he says in the second bullet point he says walkway plus one level I don't see any way of improving the means of escape from the new accessible flat other than by providing a full fire detection system
00:12:44 providing a full fire detection system brackets an automatic fire suppression system water mist or sprinklers would add an extra factor of safety but we don't want to offer this at this stage do you see that yes
00:13:00 and then can we just go to the top of this page this is mr. Jess's response on the 29th of November - Terry Ashton and
00:13:12 the 29th of November - Terry Ashton and it's CeCe's in the Grenville at Studio Eko UK account with those emails have gone to you yes yeah so you may have seen this email at the time so he
00:13:26 seen this email at the time so he responds Terry and then in the second paragraph they says I wasn't expecting to have to go as far as sprinklers straight mist which wouldn't be typical in residential accommodation I was
00:13:37 in residential accommodation I was expecting more detectors audible interlinked alarms and maybe a connection to the main fire panel in reception do you see that yeah so mr. jet is indicating that he didn't expect to go as far as sprinklers which he said
00:13:49 to go as far as sprinklers which he said wouldn't be typical in the light of that exchange did Studio II ever give any
00:14:00 exchange did Studio II ever give any serious consideration to the introduction of sprinklers in Grandville Tower
00:14:11 it wouldn't be something we would hold a view on so I don't think we would have we would have expected the fire consultant to recommend off building
00:14:23 consultant to recommend off building control to to advise any requirement the architect would normally hold a view on that
00:14:31 that I see so because x over weren't recommending sprinklers you say that wasn't something that you seriously looked into yes were you aware that a
00:14:46 looked into yes were you aware that a document be required sprinklers in all new builds over 30 meters
00:14:56 [Applause]
00:15:00 and we're youwere we're at the time at this time that the means of escape from the tower was via a single narrow stair and that the ventilation was
00:15:12 and that the ventilation was unsatisfactory yes I think that on the subjects of a lot of correspondence and discussion did it ever occur to you that
00:15:23 discussion did it ever occur to you that a way of mitigating those problems might be sprinklers throughout the flats
00:15:30 [Music]
00:15:37 no no I wouldn't have yeah necessarily put them together but yeah under fire consultant okay I'm now going to take
00:15:48 consultant okay I'm now going to take you to some emails which lead up to you xa verse design notes of the 12th of September 2012 if we can just turn to your witness statement SC a three zeros
00:16:00 your witness statement SC a three zeros one for 273 at page 61 and I want to look at paragraph 128 point four just
00:16:15 look at paragraph 128 point four just just take a moment to reform inner eyes yourself with that paragraph
00:16:29 yeah okay so you say there that on the 10th of September 2012 you met Terry Ashton at our offices I do not recall what was discussed although note that the minutes for the
00:16:40 although note that the minutes for the design team meeting on the 6th of September state draft fire strategy needs detail interrogation and the meeting was arranged with Studio E early next week to review did you see that there yes is it the position that you
00:16:58 there yes is it the position that you still can't recall what you discussed with mr. Ashton at that meeting not I wouldn't sir I can remember any detail but strange I have a recollection of
00:17:10 but strange I have a recollection of being in the room can we just look at an email chain chain that's linked to this if we go SCA six zeros 58
00:17:29 and then I want to look at the start by looking at the bottom email on page two
00:17:39 so and this is you emailing Kate Keaney on the 28th of August 2012 to see that there yeah and you say dear Kate our
00:17:50 there yeah and you say dear Kate our planning application has just been submitted and we'll be working on the visuals for a week or two still however I'm very conscious that the fire strategy for the proposed design is somewhat embryonic please could you come
00:18:02 somewhat embryonic please could you come back to me regarding progress and when we can expect a markup of the plans do you see that there yeah can you recall what you meant by embryonic at that time
00:18:22 well obviously not not complete not still in its draft or I'm not sure what
00:18:33 still in its draft or I'm not sure what they'd sent us by that point but it wasn't right wonders robust desert yeah expect it to be the documents appear to show that and there was mr. Gaston's
00:18:44 show that and there was mr. Gaston's commentary on the 22nd of May with the marked up drawings and you had had the existing fire safety strategy for that stage but that doesn't appear to have
00:18:55 stage but that doesn't appear to have been anything produced in writing by x over and relate relation to the fire strategy for the refurbishment project by this stage yep so moving up at the bottom of page one mr. Coony responds on
00:19:07 bottom of page one mr. Coony responds on the 10th of September saying she's been away on leave apologies for the delay and getting back to you I only returned from the eve on Friday and she said she'll send up some preliminary markups to give you an idea of possibilities
00:19:19 to give you an idea of possibilities with the current layout did you see that yeah yeah and then at the top of the page records that mr. Ashton is coming
00:19:30 page records that mr. Ashton is coming into our office at 3:00 p.m. today and then you say no need to duplicate work
00:19:37 looking back on this and do you think that the meeting you had with mr. Ashton might have been to talk about the existing fire safety strategy that you received from xover or do you think you
00:19:51 received from xover or do you think you would have also talked about the refurbishment fire strategy I would expect you to discuss both yeah
00:20:01 now I just want to look just at three references in design team meetings so we can see what xover knew and from those
00:20:15 can see what xover knew and from those design team meetings about the over carding by this stage I want to go back to the design team meeting on the 19th of April 2012 can we turn that up at TMO one zero zero zero three zeros 1 1 43 so
00:20:34 one zero zero zero three zeros 1 1 43 so this is a project team meeting and on the 19th of April and we can see in the middle of those present that James Lee
00:20:46 middle of those present that James Lee Jay Lee do you see there in the middle was present at that meeting as were you and if you go to item three point naught on page two under the further objectives
00:21:01 on page two under the further objectives list at the bottom can you see in the first point it says they're improving the firm and efficiency and visual appearance of the facade possibly complimentary to calc you see that and
00:21:15 complimentary to calc you see that and then it page 4 of 5
00:21:23 there's a post-meeting note at item six if we can just zoom in on that thank you so this is a post meeting note meeting with our bkc planners and in the last
00:21:36 with our bkc planners and in the last sub paragraph there it says the planners responded negatively to aluminium rain screen as a cladding solution calling it plastic they would like to see the
00:21:47 plastic they would like to see the character of the tower retained or enhanced even suggesting leaving the diamond piers exposed they would prefer to see an insulated render system do you see that there so do you agree that it
00:22:03 see that there so do you agree that it would have been obvious to exceed those minutes that there was a proposal to over clad the exterior facade of the building the date of these notes
00:22:17 building the date of these notes sorry these 19th of April 2012 so quite
00:22:25 James Lewis yeah and do you agree it was also obvious that a rain screen system was being considered at that time it was
00:22:39 was being considered at that time it was yes and in your view would it have also been obvious that that would have to include some form of thermal insulation given that the objective was to improve
00:22:50 given that the objective was to improve the thermal efficiency yes so then if we can turn to another design team meeting but later on the 18th of July 2012 this
00:23:03 but later on the 18th of July 2012 this is EXO five zeros seven five three
00:23:10 and we see those present which include you at the bottom and then there's a distribution list just underneath that says as present do you see that and
00:23:22 says as present do you see that and we've got mr. Ashton FX over listed there from your understanding was it routine that anybody on the distribution list would receive copies of these
00:23:34 list would receive copies of these design team meeting notes yes yeah how would that occur how would they be sent them in email one email yeah and at that
00:23:47 them in email one email yeah and at that meeting can we look at page two or four under architecture and I want to look at the second-to-last point up on that page
00:23:59 the second-to-last point up on that page do you see there there's a paragraph that says this zinc rain screen emerging as front-runner aesthetically for cladding VM zinc composite panel may be most cost effective for true think
00:24:11 most cost effective for true think finish do you see that there yeah so again do you agree that if those minutes had been read by it's over it would have been obvious that a zinc composite paneling was being proposed as part of
00:24:24 paneling was being proposed as part of the exterior cladding I think it's obvious from and then I just want to look at one more design team meeting this is the 6th of
00:24:36 team meeting this is the 6th of September
00:24:42 2012 this is se a four zero six one five seven
00:24:57 and we see there that in the present list Terry Aston is actually present at this meeting do you see that there and if we look over onto page three under
00:25:08 if we look over onto page three under the heading costs we see just one item up from the bottom of that section there's a line that says se Studio II to
00:25:22 there's a line that says se Studio II to provide updates measures for external cladding elements do you see that yes and then back onto page two
00:25:36 and then back onto page two under the heading fire there's a note here about x over if I can just read that to you x over need to understand the existing situation and whether lfb detest the system twice a year and what
00:25:49 detest the system twice a year and what was behind the proposed upgrade works to the smoke exhaust Street fire the statutory position on the design needs to be established as it's not possible for Building Control to insist on enhancements and then we also see below
00:26:01 enhancements and then we also see below that draft fire strategy needs detailed interrogation and a meeting was arranged with Studio II early next week to review and we looked at that
00:26:14 so here this these miniature tasks relating to x over seem to be all about the existing situation do you agree with that yes but again in your mind you you
00:26:33 that yes but again in your mind you you put up an email a moment ago about chasing them for yeah a strategy as well but just here yes it seems to be talking about the existing situation do you
00:26:45 about the existing situation do you agree yes can I just ask you about the sentence the statutory position on the design needs to be established as it's not possible for Building Control to
00:26:57 not possible for Building Control to insist on enhancements can just explain what you understood that to mean it's referring to the exhaust system that
00:27:13 referring to the exhaust system that served the lobbies yeah on each floor about which a lot of discussion was held and
00:27:27 Theresa he needs to establish the statutory position I assume needs to understand how it works what was approved I think that's my understanding do you think it might be trying to
00:27:40 do you think it might be trying to understand what the existing system was capable of doing so they could decide whether there was any betterment I guess
00:27:51 whether there was any betterment I guess none where yes I think it was I was never clear myself so I think it was a
00:28:02 never clear myself so I think it was a lot of uncertainty on how that system should work yeah okay thank you so I now want to turn to the design note with check clover produced on the 12th
00:28:14 with check clover produced on the 12th of September 2012 let's turn that up this is at TM oh one triple zero one five six two
00:28:28 so we've been referring to this as the design note it was prepared we can see at the top on the 12th of September 2012 so that's two days after it would appear
00:28:41 so that's two days after it would appear you met with mr. Ashton and then if we scan down the note and we can see from the blue headings we see in the middle
00:28:52 the blue headings we see in the middle of that page that it says compliance with the Building Regulations 2010 and we have a heading for compliance with be what and means of warning and escape do you see that there yes and then we have
00:29:03 you see that there yes and then we have a section of the report that deals with that and then if we go over onto page 3
00:29:12 the next main heading you see in the middle of that page at 3.2 says compliance with b5 access and facilities for the fire service do you see that
00:29:23 for the fire service do you see that there so is it right that this note only dealt with B 1 and B 5 of the functional requirements in the building regulations
00:29:35 requirements in the building regulations yep and it doesn't deal with B 2 B 3 and B 4 does it no doesn't appear to and and
00:29:47 B 4 does it no doesn't appear to and and this is despite x over having been made aware on a number of occasions of the proposal to over clad the building including the possible use of a vm zinc composite panel do you agree given that
00:30:00 composite panel do you agree given that the meeting was a few days prior yeah did the lack of any consideration of the B 4 requirement cause you any concern at this stage no it didn't we were
00:30:14 this stage no it didn't we were principally concerned with the the proposed scope of changes in other words ensuring that what we
00:30:26 in other words ensuring that what we were proposing in the planning application was feasible and could be shown to be compliant compliant with the
00:30:37 shown to be compliant compliant with the building regulation or excess so you you weren't concerned that it doesn't deal with the be full requirement and in the context of the proposal to over to add
00:30:48 context of the proposal to over to add the building at this at this stage I was we would definitely the priority was understanding the the escape and as mentioned the ventilation can we turn to
00:31:06 mentioned the ventilation can we turn to your witness statement where you deal with this point this is an SE a triple zero one four 273 at page 61 and I want
00:31:19 zero one four 273 at page 61 and I want to look at paragraph 120 8.5 there in the middle of that page so you say there on the 12th of September 2012 gene what x over emailed me attaching x overs
00:31:31 x over emailed me attaching x overs design note 1 that's the note we just looked at the note provided an outline fire safety strategy for the proposed refurbishment of the tower it focused on
00:31:42 refurbishment of the tower it focused on means of escape and access straight facilities for the fire service which reflected our conversations with it's over and then you say this as a result I would have believed these were the most
00:31:53 would have believed these were the most significant issues that needed to be addressed at this point do you see that yes
00:32:00 [Applause] [Music]
00:32:03 [Music] so you say that the design note reflected conversations that you'd had with xover do you think that meant the
00:32:14 with xover do you think that meant the conversations you had for example on the 10th of September with mr. Ashton yes 10 Thea and is it right that because your
00:32:25 Thea and is it right that because your conversations with it's over that point had focused on means of escape and access facilities for the fire service that is why the design note included that content yes I think that's probably
00:32:39 that content yes I think that's probably correct and then at the end of that paragraph you've said as a result I would have believed these were the most significant issues that needed to be addressed at this point can you explain
00:32:52 addressed at this point can you explain what you meant by at that so at this point at this point in the design
00:33:03 point at this point in the design finalizing the layouts you thought that the most important issues were were b1 and b5 is that correct yes I guess correct
00:33:17 and and so is it right that because the design note focuses on those issues you infer that those were the most significant issues that needed to be addressed for the refurbishment fire
00:33:28 addressed for the refurbishment fire strategy
00:33:36 that's extending it a bit I think as a designer you're looking at the risk to what you're doing and clear the more
00:33:49 what you're doing and clear the more fundamental risk was the alterations that were being proposed and the change of use extra floor space being created and wanting to be sure that we weren't
00:34:02 and wanting to be sure that we weren't making a problem for ourselves were you thinking much at this time about the over cladding and the potential impact
00:34:13 over cladding and the potential impact of that on the building regulations compliance at this stage I think we had only discussed it in terms of the part l
00:34:25 only discussed it in terms of the part l and the ventilation window openings the method of window opening and the aesthetics but in your mind was was say
00:34:39 aesthetics but in your mind was was say the B for requirement external fire spread something you needed to come back to you later did we you were aware of that at the time
00:34:51 and we touched on this yesterday my understanding was at the time that what was proposed was routine it would be
00:35:04 was proposed was routine it would be revisited formally at an application but if we were adopting a standard practice we wouldn't expect there to be any concerns I understand
00:35:18 concerns I understand did you consider that the design note contains sufficient information to progress the design for RIBA stage C I
00:35:32 think that's that's a judgment which is quite difficult to make without reassessing it but I think we were still
00:35:49 reassessing it but I think we were still waiting for for the final reports so I'm sure that I wasn't entirely confident without the report but I think the the
00:36:01 without the report but I think the the discussions and the design though gave some level of comfort
00:36:13 did the quality of the design note give you any cause to question the competence of X over at that stage if we can then
00:36:27 of X over at that stage if we can then turn up can we look at an email this is a se a 4 zeros 6 1 2 1 and I want to go to the third email down in the chain on
00:36:39 to the third email down in the chain on page 3
00:36:48 and what we see here is this is an email from you to mr. Hale and others at Apple Yards do you see that at the top yeah David Hale with slim mark and then Mark
00:37:00 David Hale with slim mark and then Mark Anderson at the TM oh and this is dated the 13th of September 2012 so this is the day after the date of the design note on the 12th of September yeah and
00:37:13 note on the 12th of September yeah and then I want to look at what you've said in their second paragraph you say we've identified a 200k saving against the just on the measure to the elevations
00:37:24 just on the measure to the elevations and then you say this Terry didn't identify any fundamental problems with the fire strategy but liaison with Building Control is essential because as he put it
00:37:35 he put it RB Casey set their own standards and then you say X over outline strategy attached and you've attached the design note at that stage yeah do you see that
00:37:52 I think the missing words were in the subject the cost plan saving against the cross plan yes yeah understood I understand and you haven't
00:38:05 understood I understand and you haven't pointed out in this email that mr. Ashton hadn't identified any fundamental problems only with B 1 and B 5 do you
00:38:17 know no I don't qualify that what did you think mr. Ashton meant when he said
00:38:28 you think mr. Ashton meant when he said to you are bkc set their own standards that's what you've said in that last part as he put it our bkc step their own standards and that's why liaison with Building Control
00:38:39 that's why liaison with Building Control was essential
00:38:46 at this point my understanding was that Building Control had quite a wide prerogative as to what they could agree or insist upon to demonstrate compliance
00:39:02 or insist upon to demonstrate compliance and that he might have had previous experience with our bkc which led him to
00:39:13 experience with our bkc which led him to say that yeah that's what I think it comes from
00:39:19 how do you have previous experience with our bkc in terms of their Building Control team not me personally we met
00:39:32 Control team not me personally we met them and December didn't we after the snow okay I'm now going to ask you a series of questions about consideration that was given about disabled people in the tower
00:39:45 can we look at some minutes of a current meeting this is an MA X seven zeros eight dated that these are minutes of a
00:39:58 eight dated that these are minutes of a client meeting of the 28th of March 2012
00:40:05 so there we can see your present in that list at the top so this is back earlier in the year 28th of March 2012 and if we go to page 2 under the heading additional consultants
00:40:19 under the heading additional consultants item 4 you can see in the second point down there it says possible disability consultant required se will approach consultant engaged on calc but you see
00:40:31 consultant engaged on calc but you see that now is it right that the disability consultant engaged on calc was miss Simpson you knew that and did you
00:40:44 Simpson you knew that and did you consult her on the question of evacuation of flats at Granville Tower
00:40:53 I don't recall doing that that's specifically raising evacuation disabled that's your question okay yeah do you recall having any
00:41:04 yeah do you recall having any discussions with Miss Simpson about Grenville Tower as distinct from the cult project I can't recall it but and I
00:41:20 cult project I can't recall it but and I must have done because I'm she prepared a report which which I haven't read recently so your your understanding is
00:41:33 recently so your your understanding is that Miss Simpson did a report for the Grand Hotel refurbishment is that right I think she did
00:41:47 did you ever have any discussions with the TMO about there being residents with restricted mobility in the tower
00:42:07 I can't remember any specific conversations or whether the topic ever came up later so I can I can't confirm
00:42:21 do you remember considering what was required by way of inclusive design to accommodate the evacuation of the disabled no and did you ever consult
00:42:36 disabled no and did you ever consult approved document M which deals with access to and use of buildings during your time on the ground for project I
00:42:46 think how we would have although we did both here and later engaged consultants to help us
00:43:02 can we look at an email on this topic if we go to se a four zero six five five one now this is an email dated the 11th
00:43:22 one now this is an email dated the 11th of November from mr. McCourt I think we look at stock when we look at the bottom email here so this is the 11th of November 2012 from Angie McCourt of Max Fordham to Adrien Jess of Studio E to
00:43:34 Fordham to Adrien Jess of Studio E to see that yeah and the subject is Granville tower facilities for the disabled do you see that yes and he says hi Adrian are there going to be any new refuge areas in lobbies if there are I
00:43:47 refuge areas in lobbies if there are I think we will need to provide a refuge telephone system to provide two-way voice communication between the fire refuge and reception it would be good to know if you covered this with Building Control do you see that yes and then if
00:44:01 Control do you see that yes and then if we can go to mr. Jess's response at the top of page one on the 12th of November
00:44:09 just before we look at what he says do you note there that he's cc'd his response into the Grenville at Studio e Co UK address and and he said this no
00:44:23 Co UK address and and he said this no refuge's mass evacuation is not part of the existing fire strategy and we are following their lead generally people stay in their flat unless their fire
00:44:34 stay in their flat unless their fire flat is on fire I've seen the intention is for vulnerable people to refuge in other flats on the same floor before being evacuated by the fire brigade do you see that there yes
00:44:47 now do you know whether the studio II had been informed by the TMO that this was what the plan was for vulnerable people or those with a disability in the
00:44:59 people or those with a disability in the tower
00:45:04 so no no you don't recall whether you were told by the team I would know you think you weren't told that by the TM oh I don't believe we were told and I think
00:45:15 I don't believe we were told and I think agents words there I assume suggests there was no direct knowledge from the TM Oh were you ever party from what you
00:45:26 TM Oh were you ever party from what you can recall we have a party to any discussions around the plan the evacuation plan for vulnerable people or those with a disability involved in
00:45:39 those with a disability involved in discussions about that topic
00:45:44 No do you recall any discussions about something called peeps personal emergency evacuation plans
00:46:06 now I now want to go back to some matters arising out of the design notes can we bring up paragraph one hundred and twenty eight point seven of your witness statement this is SE a triple zero 147 three at page 61
00:46:29 so if you can just read that sorry with the power yeah sorry the one at the bottom one hundred and twenty eight point seven just read that to yourself and then me will read over the page as
00:46:40 and then me will read over the page as well and the remaining paragraph
00:46:53 okay so you say there can we just look at whether there is something over the pack page sorry yeah if we just go back so you say there
00:47:06 yeah if we just go back so you say there after circulating X overs designed note one I discussed the position of the dry riser with church men and art Elia asked if X over would be leading with building control I note that on the 14th of
00:47:18 control I note that on the 14th of September I emailed RT Lea in response to the latter request and said fire and Brienne whilst important are detailed discussions that can be resolved once we
00:47:29 discussions that can be resolved once we have sign-off on the proposed scope and then at the top of that page he said this reflected the fact that the project was not at a detailed design stage do you see that yeah can we just look at
00:47:43 you see that yeah can we just look at that email that you're referring to there so if we go to that se a four zero six one two one if we can blow up the
00:47:56 six one two one if we can blow up the top half of that email so this is you on the 14th of September 2012 - David Hale of Apple yards and others including the TMO and then you've said Darryl please
00:48:10 TMO and then you've said Darryl please see attached and below in summary form the movement between cost plans 2 & 3 reviewing this yesterday as a team we noted the following do you see that and then there's a number of bullet points and then if you look at the second main
00:48:25 and then if you look at the second main paragraph after the bullet points we see it right at the bottom of that page fire and Brienne whilst important are detailed discussions that can be
00:48:36 detailed discussions that can be resolved once we have sign-off on the proposed scope do you see that there yeah so that's what you were referring to in your witness statement yeah now when you refer there you've referred to
00:48:47 when you refer there you've referred to fire and Brienne by fire can you recall what you meant by that
00:48:56 [Music]
00:48:59 and no and I haven't reviewed this recently - to try and explore what it might have been could that have meant fire safety on the
00:49:13 could that have meant fire safety on the basis that that was a detailed discussion that can be resolved once she got flight sign-off on the scope I think these are budgetary allowances these two
00:49:25 these are budgetary allowances these two items have been explored by the team and we believe they should be covered by the contingency I see so I think I think it was the allowance that have been set against those two items I understand yeah so right I now want to turn on in
00:49:43 yeah so right I now want to turn on in the chronology to October 2012 if we can turn to an email chain if we can bring up LBI five zeros six to zero and I want
00:49:59 up LBI five zeros six to zero and I want to go to the bottom email of the chain at the bottom of page two
00:50:07 yeah so
00:50:16 this is an email that we're looking at from Colin Charles of Ledbetter to mr. crucial on the 10th of October 2012 and
00:50:27 crucial on the 10th of October 2012 and I think we can see just if we scroll just further up before we read that email that you are copied into this we just go one yeah one page up yes so when
00:50:43 just go one yeah one page up yes so when mr. Cassell responds we can see that your copied in do you see that there at the bottom of the page yeah so just going back to the bottom of page 2 and
00:50:55 going back to the bottom of page 2 and what mr. Charles of Ledbetter said to mr. crucial we read there said Andre I've still to receive a satisfactory response from the design team with
00:51:06 response from the design team with reference to the concerns raised by the G AG our client requires us to deal with this and I am not willing to commence the works until I've received a demonstration that the fire safety of
00:51:17 demonstration that the fire safety of this state has been considered with on the design this is a clear requirement of the CDM regulations the response received from X over X o via is in my opinion casual should I issue this G a G
00:51:31 opinion casual should I issue this G a G it would further exacerbate an already high risk high project risk and then he said I must have a proper response regarding consultation with Building Control and lfb by return do you see
00:51:44 Control and lfb by return do you see that there yeah do you know what they're referring to there what mr. Charles is referring to there by concerns raised by the G a G do you know what G a G stands
00:51:55 the G a G do you know what G a G stands for I think it was the grin for action group yeah
00:52:02 the concerns yeah
00:52:07 now we saw you finished I thought you asked if I knew what the concerns were ah no but but if you know do tell us I
00:52:22 ah no but but if you know do tell us I think it was a removal of the stair right redundant step yeah it could have been fire-engine exercise yeah yeah do you recall reading this we saw that
00:52:35 do you recall reading this we saw that you were copied into mr. Kershaw's response do you have any memory of this email around this time I do yeah and did
00:52:49 email around this time I do yeah and did you note at the time that the sentence where it says the response received from Xavier is in my opinion casuals should that Redux over I think so so is it
00:53:03 that Redux over I think so so is it right that there was some dissatisfaction at this time about X overs response this is in relation to the Cal project yes yes and I can't say
00:53:15 the Cal project yes yes and I can't say I remember seeing a response on this whatever this is she was at this point yep can't comment on whether it was casual yeah did it ring any bells for
00:53:31 casual yeah did it ring any bells for you that x over is being reported to have been casual by mr. Charles do you remember noticing that at the time I don't remember noticing it
00:53:50 so it didn't say to you well I need to closely scrutinize the work that XF was done now because there's clearly some additional concerns here did that
00:54:07 acceptable obviously our sub consultants and this is a relatively firm email from Colin and he wasn't satisfied with the
00:54:20 Colin and he wasn't satisfied with the content or the advice given and it was for us to to to ensure that proper Anza
00:54:34 for us to to to ensure that proper Anza was was provided yep
00:54:39 can we now look at another email se a four zero six three nine four and yes if
00:54:52 four zero six three nine four and yes if we can blow this up so what I want to understand from this email is what informations being provided to mr. Ashton
00:54:58 Ashton by you at this stage so this is an email from mr. Jess to mr. Ashton you see that at the top again the studio e-coat UK
00:55:11 at the top again the studio e-coat UK general email is cc'd in here it's dated the 23rd of October 2012 and we can see that it attaches something called Graham for work packages a draft of work
00:55:23 for work packages a draft of work packages yeah and then it says everyone has confirmed the workshop 40 p.m. on Thursday and then they say the plan for Thursday is to initially have a brief
00:55:35 Thursday is to initially have a brief discussion on respective design issues to highlight areas for further coordination with a particular focus on allowing Terry to make contact with our bkc Building Control as soon as possible do you see that so there's clearly a
00:55:47 do you see that so there's clearly a plan to have a meeting a workshop on Thursday with a focus of allowing Terry that would that be Terry Ashton yes to make contact with our bkc as seen as
00:55:59 make contact with our bkc as seen as bill
00:55:59 bill control as soon as possible and can we just look at the spreadsheet that was attached to this email this is SCA four zero six three nine five so this is a
00:56:17 zero six three nine five so this is a spreadsheet of work packages for Graham Phil Tower dated the 23rd of October we can see that in the top lines do you see that yeah and then under the column on
00:56:30 that yeah and then under the column on the left hand side headed architectural strategy can you see there there's a number of references to over cladding yeah over cladding podium insulation over cladding podium insulation over
00:56:42 over cladding podium insulation over cladding insulation zinc rain screen do you see that yeah so there's a number and there's a number of references nuclear and walling over cladding rooftop plant room do you see all that
00:56:54 rooftop plant room do you see all that yes so do you agree that it would have been completely clear to mr. Ashton if we'd looked at these work packages in this spreadsheet that the package of work included the over cladding of the
00:57:06 work included the over cladding of the entire building the answer because the work packages were being prepared for
00:57:18 work packages were being prepared for what we understood with the innovation to the main contractor and given that so they wouldn't be necessary preparing detail design packages I'm not sure he
00:57:31 detail design packages I'm not sure he would have necessarily scrutinized this document but to go back to the point was he aware that the building was to be overcrowded I would say yes
00:57:50 mr. Chairman I think that might be an appropriate moment to have a break for break it would if mr. yeah zooms would like a break now yes all
00:58:02 zooms would like a break now yes all right well we'll have a short break at this point mr. sands you'll say ten minutes well we'd better say back by ten past eleven just over ten minutes all right I'd like to give the I should
00:58:13 right I'd like to give the I should thank you oh and don't talk to anyone about your evidence thank you
00:58:25 right temp are celebrities
01:11:41 yes could you ask mr. since come back please thank you
01:11:54 okay you okay to carry on mr. Simms yes thank you yes Miss Granger yes Thank You mr. sands we're now going to look at the first issue of the outline fire safety strategy that xover
01:12:07 outline fire safety strategy that xover provided on the 31st of October 2012 and first of all I just want to look at the email which sent that to you can we turn to EXO five zeros five one eight and if
01:12:27 to EXO five zeros five one eight and if we can blow that up we can see here that on the 31st of October at 421 so 1621 p.m. we see that issue one Margaret
01:12:43 p.m. we see that issue one Margaret Trenor who is an administrative assistant at X / hi Adrian please find attached issue 1 outline fire safety strategy for the above project the
01:12:54 strategy for the above project the report is sent by email only do you see that there yes so that's so you're receiving this on the 31st of October or mr. Jess is and then if we can turn up the report this is an EXO 5 zeroes 5 1 9
01:13:11 so we see here Grenville tower outline fire safety strategy do you see that yes and we can see it's dated the 31st of October 2012 in the bottom issue number
01:13:23 October 2012 in the bottom issue number one and then can we turn over to page two and we can see that it's been prepared by mr. Terry Ashton and reviewed by mr. Sean McElhaney do you
01:13:36 reviewed by mr. Sean McElhaney do you see that there yes and then can we return to the introduction to this report which is on page four
01:13:47 can you just take a moment to just read that introduction to yourself
01:14:19 okay so we can see in this introduction that what's happened is that the author has set out what the refurbishment comprises in a series of bullet points
01:14:31 comprises in a series of bullet points and do you agree that it doesn't states there that the refurbishment includes the over cladding of the tower no it doesn't
01:14:43 doesn't did you ever query that with mr. Ashton or anyone else that X over I don't recall doing so now do you know
01:14:54 I don't recall doing so now do you know why that didn't get queried with X over
01:15:06 I'm not sure I can answer a negative act that I can't I can't say you can't say I can speculate that do you remember
01:15:17 can speculate that do you remember noting the omission at the time you read the report do you remember noting I he summarized the refurbishment of what it comprises but over claddings not in there do you remember that thought occurring too you
01:15:29 remember that thought occurring too you know and we can see from the final paragraph of this introduction that the report is said to be based on
01:15:41 report is said to be based on discussions held with the design team and then on a number of drawings that are listed out there do you see that yeah
01:15:47 yeah phased by Studio II now none of those drawings refer to or detail any cladding on the building yeah they are all proposed floor plans and none of them
01:15:58 proposed floor plans and none of them mention the intended changes to the facade all the materials proposed at that stage now did you notice that at the time that there were no drawings or
01:16:11 the time that there were no drawings or details referred to there
01:16:19 did you ever check with ex over whether they had sufficient drawings specifications and details required to produce advice on the over cladding of
01:16:31 produce advice on the over cladding of the project we would have provided them the drawings we we had I believe those
01:16:47 the drawings we we had I believe those drawings I presume with the planning drawings or maybe they were precursors to the planning drinks yeah can we look over a page - sorry that
01:17:06 can we look over a page - sorry that can't that must be wrong reference go over can we go over the page from where I was so that was on page 4 can we go over to page 5 yes and can we look at
01:17:17 over to page 5 yes and can we look at paragraph 2.1 at the top and we see there that it talks about the building regulations 2010 and it says the building work will have to be carried out in conformity with the requirements of schedule 1 of the regulations do you
01:17:30 of schedule 1 of the regulations do you see that yes and then explained to satisfy regulation before it be necessary to ensure that where the building is altered it is no more unsatisfactory in relation to the requirements of schedule 1 than it was
01:17:42 requirements of schedule 1 than it was before the works are carried out you see that there and then they've set out the requirements of schedule 1 relating to fire safety and we have b1 down to b5 do
01:17:53 fire safety and we have b1 down to b5 do you see that yes and then the very bottom there we see a sentence that states compliance with these requirements is normally achieved by meeting the standards contained in
01:18:05 meeting the standards contained in approved document b ad b and/or BS triple 9 one do you see that there yes was it your understanding based on reading this report that xover was
01:18:16 reading this report that xover was primarily assessing compliance based on the standards in a DB or bs triple 9 1
01:18:29 [Music]
01:18:49 the alternatives I mean that that is in a sense a question for them but it does reach me as a bit of a template
01:19:04 reach me as a bit of a template understand a bit of text I see so so if you're asking me if I thought that these we're going to use a proved occupant B to assess the scheme I
01:19:18 proved occupant B to assess the scheme I think that's for them to answer is if that's your question so let's just think about what your understanding was at the time it was your understanding that they
01:19:29 time it was your understanding that they would be primarily using a preview meant B to assess the scheme I'm not familiar with BS triple nine one and approved
01:19:44 with BS triple nine one and approved document b involves a fair degree of interpretation so how you interpret
01:19:55 interpretation so how you interpret standards in this context I'm not sure I see so that was in your view is that a matter for them yeah how they interpreted those standards yeah now
01:20:07 interpreted those standards yeah now we're gonna look in more detail at this fire strategy but before we do that I just want to look at something else on the same day that this fire strategy was sent either 31st of October 2012 Studio
01:20:21 sent either 31st of October 2012 Studio II issued its cerebus stage C report can we just look at that if we go to a RT for zeroes eight three nine six
01:20:36 and we can see here that this is an email from Adrian Jess to david hale and others headed stage c report and we can
01:20:50 others headed stage c report and we can see it's dated the 31st of October 2012 at 11:37 a.m. DC so that was sent in the morning yeah and can you see that on the
01:21:01 morning yeah and can you see that on the CC list mr. Ashton is one of the recipients of that email yes and then you say did all sorry mr. Jess says please find attached the studio II FTP
01:21:15 please find attached the studio II FTP location for the stage C report what was an FTP location it stands for File Transfer Protocol this was a service
01:21:27 Transfer Protocol this was a service that we we use to our large documents to be circulated without cluttering people's mailboxes yep so that's a link
01:21:39 people's mailboxes yep so that's a link that somebody can click on and go to the studio a stage see reports that rose yes essentially an online folder available for download and you'll recall we looked
01:21:51 for download and you'll recall we looked at it a minute ago that issue one of the outline fire safety strategy was emailed my ex over to mr. Jess at 4:21 that afternoon so is it right that issue one
01:22:02 afternoon so is it right that issue one of the outline fire safety strategy came too late for it to be incorporated into the formal reporting package for Reba stage t that studio we put together
01:22:16 correctly I thought we did include it in the final report so I think what we'll discover is you include it in your stage
01:22:27 discover is you include it in your stage D report it's not in the stage C report
01:22:39 now can we just look at that stage t report if we go to Ma X five zeros four four five so this is the studio e
01:22:52 four five so this is the studio e brimful tower regeneration project stage C report do you see that there yeah and that stage C report had included a section on the over cladding proposals
01:23:04 section on the over cladding proposals can we go to page 27 within the report and can you see that there's a whole section there had a design approach over cladding do you see that there yeah and
01:23:15 cladding do you see that there yeah and then we've got a narrative description of the original building and then a discussion about the over cladding and
01:23:28 discussion about the over cladding and then on page 28 if you move over the page we can see under materials in the middle of the page can you see it says
01:23:39 middle of the page can you see it says there a zinc composite rainscreen cladding is proposed to the upper levels and then it explains that there are various advantages of zinc could you see that there yeah and we can also see some
01:23:52 that there yeah and we can also see some sketches just zoom back out again there's some sketches on the right-hand side particularly figure 17 in the bottom a corner study of the proposed
01:24:03 bottom a corner study of the proposed ink cladding to see that there yes and then if we can go to page 31 within this report we can see that there are some
01:24:14 report we can see that there are some plan and sections on that page showing over cladding do you see that you've got a number of little sections to the side and bottom and then a plan view and then
01:24:28 and bottom and then a plan view and then can we go to page 32 within the report
01:24:34 we have an isometric sketch at the top which is kind of showing the layers that are going on can you see there we've got insulation as a layer and then the
01:24:45 insulation as a layer and then the rainscreen cladding going you see that and then at the bottom of that page we see a number of cladding options and the cladding ideas do you see that yeah so
01:24:58 cladding ideas do you see that yeah so we've got rain screen Collard panel rain screen
01:25:01 screen stone chip rain screen render and then rain screen aluminium the bottom and rain screen zinc so a number of options are shown there yeah and then at page 82
01:25:13 are shown there yeah and then at page 82 of this report we can see this is within a max Borden this is max fordham stage C
01:25:25 a max Borden this is max fordham stage C report their own stage C report which was incorporated in the studio e state C report and under the heading for point naught refurbishment response to existing energy and environmental issues
01:25:38 existing energy and environmental issues can you see in the table on the top right hand side that four lines down it says insulation new Celotex FR 5000 do
01:25:50 says insulation new Celotex FR 5000 do you see that yeah so we know that this proposed insulation is Celotex FR 5000 and there's also reference to zinc cladding new rain screen immediately
01:26:02 cladding new rain screen immediately above that sorry two lines above that can I get back a few questions you've asked me I think it was the meeting of
01:26:13 asked me I think it was the meeting of the 10th of September whether I recalled the content of the meeting yeah and I said I could remember the room yeah most memories are you usually quit
01:26:25 memories are you usually quit you're quite sure of because of their vividness yeah I remember elevations on the table do you remember having elevation drawings showing the cladding showing the proposed the proposed
01:26:37 showing the proposed the proposed cutting in front of you when you talk to mr. Ashton I'm not sure yeah and just to finish off on this page
01:26:48 yeah and just to finish off on this page there's also reference to a ventilated cavity underneath zinc cladding in that same table and then in the next page page 83 talks about glazing infill
01:27:00 page 83 talks about glazing infill panels and it talks about insulation new Celotex FR 5000 as mentioned twice there do you see that so as we've just seen
01:27:12 do you see that so as we've just seen xover was sent this Stacey report on the morning before it then sent its outline fire safety strategy in the afternoon did you ask mr. Ashton or anyone at X
01:27:25 did you ask mr. Ashton or anyone at X over whether they considered studio e state C report before they issued that issue one of the fire strategy roughly
01:27:40 issue one of the fire strategy roughly same day on yeah did you ever have a conversation and say by the way we've just sent either link to the to our stage C report and have you had a look
01:27:52 stage C report and have you had a look at that no but I think they would have had the information necessary and they may they may not have heard annex forums
01:28:04 may they may not have heard annex forums information but they would have had ours
01:28:12 can we turn back then to issue one of the outline fire safety strategy that's EXO five zeros five one nine and I want to go to the paragraph two point one on
01:28:24 to go to the paragraph two point one on page five of this report so we know just to orientate ourselves back in this document that the requirements of
01:28:36 document that the requirements of schedule 1 B 1 to B 5 are listed there
01:28:41 and then can we go to page 8 of the document so if you look at the very top
01:28:52 document so if you look at the very top of that page we that we've got a paragraph three point one point for compliance with B for external fire spread and it says this it is considered
01:29:03 spread and it says this it is considered that the proposed changes will have no adverse effect on the building in relation to external fire spread but this will be confirmed by an analysis and a future issue of this report do you see that yeah and and that's the only
01:29:16 see that yeah and and that's the only other place where B 4 is addressed in this report other than the short list at the beginning and can you confirm that
01:29:27 the beginning and can you confirm that this was the only guidance that Studio II received at this stage about the B for functional requirements yes now
01:29:39 for functional requirements yes now looking at that first sentence where it says it is considered that the proposed changes will have no adverse effect on the building in relation to external fire spread choice it's all one sentence
01:29:51 fire spread choice it's all one sentence looking at that sentence there's reference there to the proposed changes will have no adverse effect so what was your understanding of what these
01:30:02 your understanding of what these proposed changes were the other cladding the installation and the replacement windows
01:30:12 Plus obviously the extra the change in the in the in the form of the building by filling in the podium level but it
01:30:25 by filling in the podium level but it included a newer understanding the over cladding of the whole of the tower from levels for up to 23 that's certainly how I would have read it yes did you ever go
01:30:36 I would have read it yes did you ever go back to x over and ask to see an analysis of what proposed changes they were saying would have no adverse effect
01:30:48 did it ever occur to you to do that to check with them what proposed changes they had taken into account as I said a
01:30:59 they had taken into account as I said a minute ago we understood that what was proposed was fairly routine and something that all consultants would be familiar with carrying on with in that
01:31:12 familiar with carrying on with in that sentence what did you understand the statement this will be confirmed by an analysis in a future issue of this report what did you understand that to mean
01:31:25 [Music]
01:31:28 that it was too soon for for them to comment but from our point of view at this point stage see it it it was
01:31:41 this point stage see it it it was primarily that sentence confirmed to us there was no no concern when did you
01:31:53 there was no no concern when did you think the further analysis would take place what was your expectation
01:32:02 well obviously the next or subsequent stages once once the information had become clearer
01:32:12 do you recall noting at the time that there would be a need for a further analysis in a future issue of the report on that requirement I don't recall reading that at the time
01:32:32 given that the original facade was concrete wouldn't most forms of cladding be inferior to that in terms of potential fire safety and fire spread
01:32:45 potential fire safety and fire spread theory did you appreciate that at the time that you've got a concrete building but what you're doing is you're over cladding it and that almost inevitably
01:32:59 cladding it and that almost inevitably is going to mean that it's inferior in terms of its ability to resist fire fire spread issues I'm afraid that's hindsight I'm at the
01:33:13 I'm afraid that's hindsight I'm at the time I certainly would have agreed with you that any cladding would not stand up in a blaze wouldn't resist fire it would
01:33:25 in a blaze wouldn't resist fire it would fail but I wouldn't have automatically theoretically come to the view that that it was inferior
01:33:40 did you expect that at some stage you'd get an analysis a detailed analysis of how they had come to the conclusion that there would be no adverse effect on the B for requirement as I say I don't I'm
01:33:58 B for requirement as I say I don't I'm I'm sure i discussed the report with Terry but I don't recall discussing this this item you didn't discuss this particular discussing this this course
01:34:10 particular discussing this this course ever with mr. Ashton
01:34:15 no always focusing on the concerns and this was not a concern did it ever occur to you that from the perspective of the CDM regulations there needed to be some
01:34:28 CDM regulations there needed to be some form of design risk assessment in respect of the risks posed by the new cladding materials
01:34:41 yes I think that's covered in stage D risk assessments
01:34:59 so in their fee proposal which we looked at yesterday Xavier had promised at stage see an outline fire strategy document that would assist early design development do you recall that yes did
01:35:14 development do you recall that yes did you think that this strategy met that objective in your view did it assist you with the early design development the
01:35:26 with the early design development the strategy in my view was a summary of the conversations that we had had to date in a sense it was a stage see report on
01:35:39 a sense it was a stage see report on progress made on fire safety the reason
01:35:50 progress made on fire safety the reason for for obviously wanting fire input is not to progress the scheme in such a way that you you're doing something that you
01:36:02 that you you're doing something that you shouldn't so that's why I mentioned yet I think it was yesterday that needed to be integrated to some degree with what was shown on the architectural drawings it couldn't it couldn't be a something
01:36:16 it couldn't it couldn't be a something to consider afterwards you shouldn't have posed problems for us to deal with in the next stage it should have resolved any problems I sought to address any problems at that stage did
01:36:30 address any problems at that stage did you ever compare the information that you got from mr. Ashton on this B 4 requirement with that that you got from mr. K Cooney and her existing fire safety strategy did you ever do that
01:36:41 safety strategy did you ever do that comparison I don't recall comparing them I obviously did remember discussing them with a case report can we just look
01:36:52 with a case report can we just look briefly back at that if we go to TM oh one triple zero one 95 at page 14
01:37:07 so this is page 14 of that existing fire safety strategy which was provided in August 2012 and we see here that there's
01:37:18 August 2012 and we see here that there's a whole section on B for external fire spread do you see that yeah so the requirement is explained at the top of the page and then there's a section on what the general philosophy is and then
01:37:32 what the general philosophy is and then do you see under external wall construction section 60 the external surface of the building which is more than 18 meters should have a surface classification of class naught or Class B do you see that yes so would you agree
01:37:45 B do you see that yes so would you agree that miss Cooney here is giving details of what the requirements are for the existing building and you agreed that's
01:37:56 existing building and you agreed that's what we're getting here against the current then current regulations yes yes yes and effectively at this stage she's
01:38:10 yes and effectively at this stage she's dealing with a building that was just entirely concrete on the exterior wasn't she that's the windows that's the windows you're right yeah now can we go
01:38:22 windows you're right yeah now can we go back to the first issue of the fire strategy that you got from x over and I want to look at what was said about requirement b3 in this first issue if we go back
01:38:33 go back EXO 5 zeroes 5 1 9
01:38:42 and then can we go within that to page seven and if we can zoom in on the bottom of the page this is where compliance with b3 internal fire spreads
01:38:55 compliance with b3 internal fire spreads structure its address do you see that yeah yeah can you just have a read of that and then I want you to read over the page
01:39:05 the page what's also said about b3 there can you just do that now
01:39:30 okay
01:39:34 so yeah if you can then finish by reading that top paragraph
01:39:53 okay did you note at the time you were reading this that there's no reference in this section to functional requirement b3 4 which is about the
01:40:04 requirement b3 4 which is about the building being designed and constructed so that the unseen spread and fire and smoke within concealed spaces in its structure and fabric is inhibited no did
01:40:16 structure and fabric is inhibited no did you ever query that with mr. Ashton no can we then look at your witness
01:40:28 no can we then look at your witness statement can we go to se a triple 0 1 4 2 7 3 at page 140 and I want to look at
01:40:39 2 7 3 at page 140 and I want to look at paragraph 3 4 3 and specifically 3 4 3 point 2 of your statement if you just read that to yourself point 2 yeah well
01:40:52 read that to yourself point 2 yeah well what I say what we read the top 3 point 3 which is the introduction to these sub paragraphs and then I want to focus on three point three point two
01:41:09 okay so you're saying at meetings you would have presented the proposals including the zinc metal cladding and installation but I do not recall anyone raising the issue of cladding not being compliant under Part B 4 of the building
01:41:21 compliant under Part B 4 of the building regulations and then you say the reasons he believed we did not investigate this are and then three four three point to say our research and consultations including with xover had not revealed
01:41:33 including with xover had not revealed any specific concerns or fire risk associated with the proposals and nor the materials do you see that yeah so where are you relying on x overs advice
01:41:44 where are you relying on x overs advice in respect of any specific concerns or fire risks associated with the proposals and the materials I think so that
01:42:00 and the materials I think so that undertook to advise on fire safety and they did not reveal any specific concerns you start that subparagraph
01:42:12 concerns you start that subparagraph there by saying our research and consultations including with X over what did you have in mind that where there are other pieces of research or consultations which you had in mind
01:42:23 consultations which you had in mind which hadn't revealed any specific concerns the suppliers the various suppliers that we approached yes to that point and October and beyond other
01:42:39 point and October and beyond other consultants some contractors the contractors hadn't raised any concerns
01:42:54 so I now want to look at the build-up to issue two of the outline fire safety strategy by x over and it would appear
01:43:08 strategy by x over and it would appear that the studio is first meeting with Building Control happened on the 6th of November 2012 do you recall that there
01:43:22 November 2012 do you recall that there was meeting in December November bring up se a four zeros six four four three
01:43:43 so what we see here in the bottom email is Terry Ashton emailing John Allen our bkc that's John Allen at our bkc building control isn't it yes and then
01:43:57 building control isn't it yes and then the subject CC'ing Adrian Jess and the subject grandfort our further to my earlier email please see attached our report do you see that yes so this appears to be mr. Ashton sending issue one of the fire strategy report to
01:44:11 one of the fire strategy report to Building Control directly do you see that yes
01:44:23 and then I want to look at a note by mr. Jess if we go to se a 4 0 6 5 to 6
01:44:42 so what we see here is this is an email from Adrian Jess - Terry Ashton and others of Apple yards Ledbetter on the
01:44:55 others of Apple yards Ledbetter on the 7th of November 2012 and it's I'll be casey building control notes and then he begins terry free please find below notes following our meeting with our bkc
01:45:06 notes following our meeting with our bkc Building Control regarding fire strategy and subsequent discussions with Andrew at max Fordham and yourself by way of clarification of the outstanding fire issues now just to be clear I think you
01:45:18 issues now just to be clear I think you say in your statement you weren't at that meeting with Building Control is that right no I wasn't and did you see
01:45:30 that right no I wasn't and did you see mr. Jess's note this note that email note of the meeting that they've had with Building Control would you have seen that at the time I would have been copied in and I would have expected to
01:45:42 copied in and I would have expected to have spoken to him on his return if we look down this note it's quite a long email but if we go through it what we
01:45:58 email but if we go through it what we can see is there is no reference in these notes to any discussions about cladding over cladding there's a heading about firefighting about hard standing
01:46:12 about firefighting about hard standing for fire engines etc there issues about the mezzanine level walkway level then we've got a separate heading you see at the bottom of that page smoke ventilation yeah we can go over onto the
01:46:23 ventilation yeah we can go over onto the next page there's a whole section on the smoke ventilation system then in the next subtopic is means of escape detection and containment do you see that there and with there's a detailed
01:46:36 that there and with there's a detailed discussion about means of escape so there's nothing at all there about the proposed cutting to the tower can we look at your witness statement paragraphs one four five to one four six
01:46:48 paragraphs one four five to one four six this is se a three zeroes one four two seven three at pages seventy start with page 72
01:46:56 page 72 you
01:47:03 and I want you to have a read to yourself for paragraphs 146 and 147
01:47:23 so this is where you are just to be clear at 1 4 5 you are discussing the meeting that Adrienne Jess had with Terry Ashton and building control on the 6th of November 2012 so you want me to
01:47:36 6th of November 2012 so you want me to read 1 4 6 so yes can you read 1 4 6
01:47:52 one four seven no pause there for a moment I just want to ask you about one four six so you say in the third sentence seven lines down there's a
01:48:03 sentence seven lines down there's a sentence beginning my understanding can you see that it's about seven lines down yeah and you say my understanding from the note is that Building Control did not express any concern about the
01:48:15 not express any concern about the proposed cladding to the tower all the detail there off which I believe at that stage would have been based on Celotex FR 5,000 and vm zinc composite and
01:48:26 FR 5,000 and vm zinc composite and building control quotes generally accepted the proposed means of escape strategy which included the existing residential to remain in flats and evacuated on instruction by lfp do you
01:48:37 evacuated on instruction by lfp do you see that yes so you've you say there your understanding is that Building Control didn't express any concern about the proposed caddying but would you agree from looking at the notes mr. Jess's notes that there doesn't appear
01:48:49 Jess's notes that there doesn't appear to have been a discussion at that meeting about the over cladding I think
01:49:00 meeting about the over cladding I think the format of almost all meetings on the project and my experience and I'm I believe this would be true in this
01:49:12 believe this would be true in this instances you would always start with the description of the project and inevitably would include a description of the cloud so is what you're saying that you your expectation is that there
01:49:24 that you your expectation is that there would have been only been discussed an introductory section to the meeting that discussed it on what basis do you consider that Building Control would have known about the specification of
01:49:37 have known about the specification of Celotex FR 5,000 no and that's
01:49:47 and it's Adrienne had taken a printout of the report and drawn it to the attention I wouldn't know
01:50:02 yes okay thank you can we move forward in time now to the studio East 8d report this was issued on the 20th of August 2013 so we've moved on some way now into
01:50:15 2013 so we've moved on some way now into 2013 can we go to that ma x50 757
01:50:28 and this is so this is your stage deep rapport August 2013 we've got the date there now just so you can see this it page 78 within this document we can see
01:50:41 page 78 within this document we can see the issue 1 of the outline fire safety strategy from x over is incorporated do you see that yes so I think that to help you that's just the report in which it got incorporated
01:51:04 can we go to the covering email dated the 20th of August 2012 in which he sent the stage D report this is a SE a four zeros eight zero five two
01:51:24 I can just zoom in on that so this is you emailing a number of individuals here on the project on the 20th of
01:51:36 here on the project on the 20th of August Graham for tower stage D reports and you say please see below a link to our completed stage D report and we've got the link and then just below that you say x overs fire safety report from
01:51:48 you say x overs fire safety report from January is included as is the updated 3m pre-assessment now I just want to ask you you've referred there to a fire safety report from January is included
01:51:59 safety report from January is included do you agree that that must have been an error because it was the fire safety report from October yes 2012 that was included must have picked it up in an
01:52:14 included must have picked it up in an email so yeah that's fine it is what we just wanted to check that though there wasn't another report was there mirmix over in January 2013 your knowledge was
01:52:25 over in January 2013 your knowledge was x over aware that and studio he was proposing to issue its stage D report around this time I can't recall the
01:52:37 around this time I can't recall the exact circumstances but I know from reviewing my documents that we proceeded hereafter to engage with him so we can see at the top this email is sent to a
01:52:49 see at the top this email is sent to a number of individuals on the topic on the project but xover are not included in this email are they so they're not on they to list or indeed the CC list do
01:53:02 they to list or indeed the CC list do you see that yeah do you know why they weren't included in the stage D report
01:53:18 no maid look like an oversight but I I know that we were about to engage in in
01:53:29 know that we were about to engage in in detail design and that they would be involved and I think that stage D report was to some degree caveated with some
01:53:42 was to some degree caveated with some introduction it's the executive summary pointing out that many of the engineers reports were not different right the
01:53:53 reports were not different right the architectural scheme as it stood so it was not it was going to be pulled together in the subsequent work yeah it
01:54:04 together in the subsequent work yeah it was commenced after the issue so it was a way of formalizing a transition to the next stage do you recall providing xover with the
01:54:15 do you recall providing xover with the stage D report at any other time x over yeah that's and this I don't recall I
01:54:27 yeah that's and this I don't recall I don't mess it's in my statement but I don't recall do you recall x over ever asking you to see the stage D report no can we just look at that stage D report
01:54:39 can we just look at that stage D report it's a ma X 5 zeros 757
01:54:50 and if we look at page 21 within the report so again what we see here is a narrative description of the design
01:55:03 narrative description of the design approach to the facade do you see that there yeah the existing building and then the concept for the design the cladding design brief and then can we go on and look at page 29 and do you see there we
01:55:22 look at page 29 and do you see there we can see under the heading tower exterior yeah so identified the proposed cell Celotex FR 5,000 installation that's
01:55:34 Celotex FR 5,000 installation that's actually in the middle column on the right-hand side sundry installation proofing work Celotex FR 5,000 do you see that yes and I think it's got pre patinated zinc
01:55:47 I think it's got pre patinated zinc rainscreen cladding as well sorry can someone just zoom out yes so H 92 in the
01:55:58 someone just zoom out yes so H 92 in the middle column yeah rainscreen cladding pre patinated zinc rainscreen cladding on aluminum cladding rails with insulation fixed directly to existing concrete and details are given there do you see that and then the installation is underneath
01:56:10 and then the installation is underneath so those details are included in your stay 2d report can we now look then issue 2 of ex overs outline fire safety strategy this is dated the 24th of
01:56:22 strategy this is dated the 24th of October 2013 so almost a year after issue one of the outline fire safety strategy and almost a year after studio
01:56:36 strategy and almost a year after studio he sent the link to the stage C report we get this second issue
01:56:45 can we just turn it up so it's at EXO five zeros four three zero so here we
01:56:59 five zeros four three zero so here we see x overs outline fire safety strategy data 24th of october 13 and issue number two is at the bottom do you see that yeah
01:57:09 now do you know which rebus stayed issue two of this outline fire safety strategy was prepared for at this point we
01:57:22 was prepared for at this point we understood we were in stage II II and did you have any understanding as to which stage xover were providing this
01:57:35 which stage xover were providing this report for
01:57:41 I think this report was an updates actually I'm I haven't reviewed this report compared to the previous one recently but I know that we were at this
01:57:53 recently but I know that we were at this point shortly after the stage D report consolidating the plans and the changes that had been requested yeah so we've had you on stage sorry in a sense it says it's a revisit of stage
01:58:06 a sense it says it's a revisit of stage D yep
01:58:10 D yep because we've had your stage D report in August 2013 and then this comes in October 13 and can we go on within this to page four and the introduction again
01:58:24 to page four and the introduction again just take a moment to just read that
01:58:37 okay
01:58:41 now can you see there that reference to the caddying is still emitted yes did you query that with that mr. Ashton or anyone else that X over at this time no
01:58:58 do you remember noticing that the over cladding was not included in the introduction giving a description of the refurbishment no was your understanding
01:59:13 refurbishment no was your understanding that this report would address the over cladding proposals I think throughout any concerns should have been raised by
01:59:25 any concerns should have been raised by X over
01:59:29 can we go within this issue to to page 8 of 10 and then if we zoom in on the bit in the middle of the page three point one point four again the B for sternal
01:59:43 one point four again the B for sternal fire spread so we can see their compliance with it before it is considered that the proposed changes will have no adverse effect on the building in relation to external fire
01:59:54 building in relation to external fire spread but this will be confirmed by an analysis and a future issue of the report do you see that yes and and that is unchanged from the first issue of the report approximately a year earlier yes
02:00:10 did you ever query with x over where their analysis was of the external wall information that was contained in your stage C report can you explain why that
02:00:28 stage C report can you explain why that was never queried with x over at this stage no but at the stage this is a
02:00:40 stage no but at the stage this is a strategy report highlighting issues that need to be addressed no issues were identified
02:00:53 I did not expect it to be any you weren't expecting any yes well I didn't think yeah I didn't expect any it hadn't been to be mentioned at any point so you
02:01:10 been to be mentioned at any point so you hadn't received any other advice from xover about compliance with the Bernthal requirement no had you received any advice from xover about whether the
02:01:21 advice from xover about whether the insulation that you'd specified was compliant with the be full requirement no did you ever think about going back
02:01:35 no did you ever think about going back to x over and asking that they provide advice on the external wall as promised in their fee proposal I repeat there was
02:01:49 in their fee proposal I repeat there was no concern identified and did not think to follow it up did you ever think it might be helpful for them to explain to
02:02:01 might be helpful for them to explain to you the basic performance requirements which external walls the external wall will be required to meet
02:02:12 that I ever think that it will be helpful and you finished did I think no you can I am trying to just understand the question yeah did you ever think that it might be
02:02:25 yeah did you ever think that it might be helpful for you to receive advice from ex over on the basic performance requirements which the external wall would need to meet retrospect at the
02:02:38 would need to meet retrospect at the time did you did it did you ever think well it would be nice to know what their there was no concerns identified can we
02:02:51 there was no concerns identified can we go within this report to heading b3 on page 8 and this section remains
02:03:04 page 8 and this section remains unchanged so there's nothing and nothing further in this section from issue 1 and do you agree that there's no guidance to the design team here about fire stopping
02:03:18 the design team here about fire stopping or cavity barriers no no did you ever did it ever get occurred to you that it would be helpful to get advice from
02:03:29 would be helpful to get advice from xover on fire stopping and cavity barriers in their formal report at stage D stage no it's a strategy report
02:03:47 on that topic can we just look at an email around this time so this is EXO five zeros five eight six and if we can
02:04:00 five zeros five eight six and if we can look at the third email down on this page sorry we just go back so it's the
02:04:19 page sorry we just go back so it's the email from Thomas wreck at the bottom of that sent on the first of November 2013 and he's saying their evening Terri can
02:04:30 and he's saying their evening Terri can you please confirm that the rain screen cavity fire barriers are to be 60 min fr to match the compartment ation do you see that from Thomas yes were you aware that mr. wreck was seeking that
02:04:44 that mr. wreck was seeking that clarification from X over at the time in preparing my report we didn't have
02:04:56 preparing my report we didn't have access to this you know
02:05:00 were you otherwise aware that the team had access to Tori yes I think I did have access to Tori yes but do you ever remember being aware that they were
02:05:12 remember being aware that they were seeking advice from him about the cavity barrier requirements because Thomas was preparing the specification and the
02:05:24 preparing the specification and the drawings I was aware that he was consulting with a number of people and as this illustrates he that included x
02:05:35 as this illustrates he that included x over
02:05:44 mr. chairman if we're going to have another morning break this would be an appropriate moment right we have another short break now mr. sensei you gave the usher please don't talk to
02:05:55 you gave the usher please don't talk to anyone about your evidence we resume at quarter past twelve quarter past twelve fees
02:49:16 well I'm very sorry to have kept you all waiting far longer than I had previously suggested and particularly since you
02:49:27 suggested and particularly since you must have been wondering what's been going on I'm sorry to tell you that mr. sands has been taken ill it's not going to be possible for him to continue giving evidence today or even tomorrow
02:49:38 giving evidence today or even tomorrow so in just a moment I shall adjourn the hearing for today and tomorrow morning we'll have a different witness who will come and start giving his evidence
02:49:49 come and start giving his evidence there'll be ten o'clock tomorrow all right so we are going to rise now and we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning thank you