Apex Lifts Limited & Otis Limited / PDERS Evidence - Monday 19th July 2021 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:29 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear evidence from more people who were concerned with the lifts at grenfell tower yes mister thanks a mayor called gary

00:00:42 yes mister thanks a mayor called gary pointer

00:00:52 good morning mr pointer morning you're going to make the affirmation i think well the words there on the screen in front of you would you read them please i do solemnly sinly sincerely and truly declare

00:01:03 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much

00:01:08 much then do sit down make yourself comfortable there's water there if you'd like some

00:01:12 like some yep thank you all right yep yes mr clear when you're ready thanks sir um would you please confirm your name for the record gary lee pointer miss pointer thank you

00:01:24 gary lee pointer miss pointer thank you for attending today three things before we start

00:01:27 we start um first of all if at any time during the examination require a break please say so that's not a problem secondly if you would please keep your voice up

00:01:37 voice up that's to enable the shorthand writer to capture everything you say and capture it accurately also please don't nod

00:01:44 don't nod say yes or no as the case may be so she can capture it finally my questions are intended to be short

00:01:51 short if they're not or they're not clear please say so and i'll rephrase them now you provided one statement for this inquiry and we can find it at apx quadruple 0876

00:02:04 quadruple 0876 and it's dated the 30th of october 2019 is that your statement that is my statement have you read it recently i have and can you confirm the contents are true they are true

00:02:15 are true they are true thank you now if i can turn first of all to your employment background is it right that you began work in the lifts industry in 1980 at stanner lifts correct and that you qualified as a lift engineer in 1983

00:02:27 qualified as a lift engineer in 1983 correct and that you worked for two different lift companies in the 1980s before moving to apex in 1996 as a repairs manager that's correct and that you were later promoted to the

00:02:38 and that you were later promoted to the position of construction manager correct and that that was a role you held during the course of the grenfell tower project that's right and from well since 2006 onwards you have worked as a construction director

00:02:50 have worked as a construction director is that right that's correct thank you now could i turn to your qualifications now just by way of background um first of all you have completed the j5 and j26 modules

00:03:01 modules which are lift engineer qualifications is that right that's correct and that you've completed distance learning courses um held by the national association of lift makers and it's levels one two

00:03:12 of lift makers and it's levels one two three and four is that right that's correct

00:03:14 correct excuse me now if we can turn to training matters

00:03:19 matters um in your role as construction director would you expect it would you be expected to have knowledge of the relevant british and european standards as they apply to lifts we would and over the course of your career did

00:03:31 and over the course of your career did you receive any training on the requirements of british standards or european standards insofar as they relate to lifts yeah we've attended seminars and would you have attended seminars

00:03:42 and would you have attended seminars before

00:03:43 before you started work on the grenfell project probably yes now looking back if you can do to the period 2003 2004 did you receive training on the

00:03:55 2004 did you receive training on the principles and requirements of bs508-5 1991 which concerned fire precautions in the design construction of use of buildings

00:04:03 buildings part five code of practice for firefighting stairs and lifts not that i can recall nonetheless were you familiar with the detailed requirements of that standard some which requirements were you most

00:04:15 some which requirements were you most familiar with five six five five and for the uninitiated what did that consider that was the lyft regulations at the time thank you did you receive any uh

00:04:26 thank you did you receive any uh training this is looking at 2003 and 2004 again did you receive

00:04:30 receive training on the principles and requirements of bs em 8172 2003. we'd have some seminar training yes

00:04:40 and would you be familiar with the relevant requirements of that standard that would have been um did you have ready excess at the time to the the standards themselves hard copies so you could consult them

00:04:51 copies so you could consult them if necessary yes they would have been available in the office um did you receive any uh training on the changes brought in by the revision 2bs508-5 1991

00:05:03 2bs508-5 1991 which were published in 2004. probably but i can't remember nonetheless were you familiar with the changes that were yes brought into practice

00:05:13 practice and again would you have had ready access to a hard copy of that standard yes they would have been available finally did you receive any training on the stattery guidance document that's known as approved document

00:05:24 known as approved document b not that i can recall are you familiar at all with approved document b no now in relation to firefighting lifts themselves did you receive any other training on the design requirements of a

00:05:36 training on the design requirements of a firefighting lift

00:05:41 did you receive any training for example on the types of buildings in which a firefighting lift would be required by standards we would have three state training yes and again with that being provided by apex for example

00:05:53 apex for example probably buy a body from leah yeah and if you could just uh inform the panel

00:05:59 panel i know what lea stands for but if you could tell the panel the lift industry associations is our body now if i could um ask you one final question is did you receive any other training on

00:06:11 is did you receive any other training on the purposes and functions of a firefighting lift not the arkham recall now now looking at the particular perspective of high-rise buildings

00:06:20 buildings in your statement we don't need to go to it but it can be found a question that is the answer e to question 11 which can be found at apx quadruple zero eight seven double six forward slash

00:06:31 eight seven double six forward slash twelve uh you said this i have never worked on a project in a high-rise residential building where i was asked to replace existing lifts and install firefighting lifts

00:06:42 lifts and install firefighting lifts i have however carried out work over scene work where firefighting lifts were installed in new builds now have you ever worked on a project involving a high-rise building where lifts were installed with some

00:06:55 where lifts were installed with some features of the firefighting lift but not all

00:06:57 not all no we would either do all or none so new as standards when they required existing lifts and still are not carried out to this standard can you

00:07:08 carried out to this standard can you help the panel why is the approach all or nothing the testers won't be able to sign the job off as complete as firefighting it wouldn't comply and so you'd either you the preference

00:07:20 and so you'd either you the preference would be

00:07:20 would be to comply fully to have all the aspects of firefighting correct mr point is there's a understandable temptation to give the answer as soon as possible if you just wait for the question to focus

00:07:32 you just wait for the question to focus it's just that the shorthand writer can capture everything now if i can turn to a different issue which is the relationship between rbkc tmo and butler and young now before the

00:07:43 tmo and butler and young now before the grenfell project had you carried out any previous projects yourself for rbkc uh we have worked for our bkc but i'm not sure if the town or project was before or after grenfell so

00:07:55 was before or after grenfell so i can't remember that fell back but yes did any involve high-rise residential buildings

00:07:59 buildings no had you worked with the tmo before the grenfell project only on the town hall project

00:08:09 in your experience did the staff the relevant staff at the tmo have the requisite knowledge of the standards and what they required from my recollection i would but we would have dealt more with butler and

00:08:20 would have dealt more with butler and young than uh rbkc did you have any direct dealings with anyone from the tmo for example david steppel or robin kalan no

00:08:35 now if we could just go to a name and this is to clarify matters in your statement

00:08:40 statement we go to apx quadruple zero eight seven double six forward slash six and the answer to question six and you see there

00:08:51 see there in the answer two names down you refer to someone called robin callahan cologne is it killarn it's meant to be sorry thank you um had you worked with butler and young before you started work with them on

00:09:03 before you started work with them on this

00:09:03 this grenfell project yes we had how many occasions can you remember now there was many and did any of those projects concern high-rise residential buildings

00:09:12 buildings uh not otherwise residential did any involve

00:09:16 involve a provision of firefighting lifts that you can remember none is that none did or none none of them had firefighting requirements now if i can just turn to

00:09:27 requirements now if i can just turn to um the relevant standards themselves and i'll approach it in a slightly broad way to start off with and see how far we go now at the time of this project in your view did the relevant standards

00:09:39 in your view did the relevant standards or any other legislation or guidance require the installation of firefighting lifts in new buildings they would have done a new building but not in existing

00:09:50 not in existing and in your view or to the best of your recollection why weren't they required in existing buildings because the buildings themselves didn't lend themselves to be fully compliant with the regulations and so put slightly

00:10:01 with the regulations and so put slightly differently the general view was and shout if this is an unfair and inaccurate summary that it was not reasonably practicable to install full firefighting lifts and existing

00:10:12 full firefighting lifts and existing buildings and because of that they weren't that is correct now if i could um

00:10:19 could um be grateful for your view in response to a conclusion reached by the enquiries expert mr roger hawkins and if we go to rho quadruple zero treble zero three

00:10:31 quadruple zero treble zero three forward slash 118 and paragraph 2 4 8

00:10:39 and you see there in the first sentence of paragraph 248 mr harkin said this regardless of whether the lifts were considered new or modernized good practice would have been to

00:10:50 good practice would have been to consider if the lifts could be fully upgraded

00:10:53 upgraded to the firefighting standard so far as was reasonably practical would you agree or disagree with that opinion yeah i'd agree with that

00:11:03 thank you now could i discuss with you the practical consequences of the distinction between lift modernizations and lift replacements

00:11:14 replacements in the context of grenfell now if we could go back to your witness statement which is

00:11:19 which is apx quadruple zero eight seven double six forward slash eight

00:11:35 thank you sorry thank you and if we go to the answer to question nine and you say there in the second paragraph this i am not clear as to what is meant by

00:11:46 i am not clear as to what is meant by the reference to new lifts no new lifts were installed in this project this project related to the modernization of existing lifts which were fireman's lifts as specified in accordance with bs

00:11:57 in accordance with bs 5655 now if we could uh start first of all by looking at bs 5655

00:12:04 5655 forward slash one from 1989 which concerned

00:12:07 concerned lifts and service lifts recommendations for the installation of new and modernized modernization of electric lifts and existing buildings and that can be found at bsi quadruple zero one seven

00:12:19 zero one seven two eight forward slash five

00:12:26 now if we can look at section 2.4.1 it's on the right hand side

00:12:35 and that says it is assumed that the existing guide rails so it should be over the page actually at the top of that page

00:12:53 at the top of that page sorry if we go back to the previous page it's the bottom paragraph sorry i misread my note it says it is assumed that the existing guide rails and their fixings will be retained and if necessary extended any unsuitable

00:13:04 and if necessary extended any unsuitable for the new application should be replaced and considered as a new installation in accordance with section 3. now would you agree that if the guide rails and fixings were retained

00:13:15 rails and fixings were retained the project should be characterized as a modernization this correct now if we can stay in this document but go over the page this time to page 6 and section 3.1

00:13:31 actually and what that says there is when a new lift is installed in a new lift well

00:13:37 lift well in association with an existing building the installation should comply with bs 5655 part one it should preferably comply with the standard dimensions specified in bs 5655

00:13:48 standard dimensions specified in bs 5655 part 5 i.e the installation should be considered as being a new lift in a new building now reading that section with section 2.4.1

00:14:01 that section with section 2.4.1 would you agree that if the guide rails are not retained and the lift is installed in a new lift well

00:14:07 well then the installation is new it could be new but it might not be it to be confirmed with the standards there could be restrictions on the pit death and headrooms

00:14:17 headrooms which will necessarily comply with a new lift so they would have to be addressed so these would be physical constraints of the existing existing structure yes it would have to comply fully with

00:14:28 yes it would have to comply fully with the regulation to be classed as a new lift and would not be passed off and so subject so your view would be that that caveat

00:14:39 so your view would be that that caveat is all important in the approach that you take to whether something is modernized or new that's correct

00:14:47 now could we look at bs 5655-11 2005 which is lifts and service lifts code of practice for the undertaking of modification to existing electric lifts and that can be found at bsi quadruples

00:14:59 and that can be found at bsi quadruples zero

00:15:00 zero one seven two four four seven

00:15:09 and this uh part of the standard and you'll see at you see chat it's got section one scope and you look at the second sentence a second uh paragraph rather it says

00:15:21 a second uh paragraph rather it says this part of five six double five does not cover any of the following types of lift

00:15:25 lift new lifts and says scene note 2 and if we

00:15:28 we look slightly further down the page at note 2 which is there we go thank you it says this where a lift

00:15:35 a lift falls into one of the following categories it is deemed to be a new lift as defined in the lifts regulations 1997 and this part of 5655 is not applicable

00:15:46 and this part of 5655 is not applicable and says lift completely replaced at the third dash and just below that only retains the guide rails immediately below that now that suggests looking at that standard in the round

00:15:58 standard in the round that if only the guide rails are retained the lift should be categorized as a new lift looking at what's said there would you agree with that proposition that is correct yes

00:16:11 now mindful of what that standard says there can we look at what was actually done at grenfell and then i can explore with you your views as to whether it was a new lift or not am i right in

00:16:22 it was a new lift or not am i right in understanding that the project required an increase in the lift car size and capacity so from eight to 12 people that's right and the project involved the following and if i can just roll them off and see whether you agree

00:16:33 roll them off and see whether you agree with them or not the replacement of the complete lift car correct the counterweight uh correct the castling and platform correct

00:16:42 correct safety gear correct door operator correct

00:16:46 correct car doors correct landing doors correct landing control system correct lift pit buffers

00:16:54 buffers correct electrical wiring correct lift controller correct and the lift motor gearbox correct

00:17:02 correct now mindful those are all the matters that were replaced can we look to see what was retained and for that purpose go to the specification and particular but

00:17:13 specification and particular but quadruple zero double zero double four forward slash 12 and section 1.3.1 which should be at the top of that page

00:17:24 which should be at the top of that page and you'll see that under the heading retained equipment in relation to the two electric passenger lifts it says guide and single riser of car guide brackets

00:17:34 brackets and landing back boxes is that a fair summary that is correct could you help us landing back boxes what are they it's the back box fitted within the

00:17:45 it's the back box fitted within the structure the building that the landing push stations are deal to so they're actually fixed into that part of the building structure now although guides are set out there as having been

00:17:57 are set out there as having been retained is it right to say that they were in fact relocated they were moved and where would they move to

00:18:04 move to to might call bigger now given that they were relocated would you still take the view that nonetheless they were retained they were retained

00:18:16 as the fact that we moved around in your view is irrelevant when looking to see whether then you're modernized lives irrelevant and can you help us as to why it goes back to the standards if it's a

00:18:27 it goes back to the standards if it's a new lift that we can it will be completely new lift installation and it would have to comply with the current regulations at the time existing lifts more often not do not the pit thefts and headroom

00:18:38 pit thefts and headroom are the constraints of the new lifts and the sizes given um just looking back at this so they're looking at retained equipment the guides were relocated but in your view retained

00:18:50 view retained were the landing back boxes in fact retained they were retained thank you these landing back boxes are they just

00:18:59 they just essentially the bit behind the control panel or the the button panel yeah they're because it build off it was concrete from memory so they would have been cut into the concrete and then setting that

00:19:10 into the concrete and then setting that concrete so it's it's a it's a big chasing in the concrete they would have been chased in many when the building was full okay thank you um looking at the extent of the apparatus

00:19:22 looking at the extent of the apparatus that was retained that was replaced rather and the limited amount that was retained was the project an opportunity for the tmo and rbkc

00:19:33 tmo and rbkc to enhance the safety features of these lifts

00:19:36 lifts it could have been if it was discussed at the time would it have been in your view good industry practice to have considered what aspects of a firefighting lift

00:19:48 what aspects of a firefighting lift could be included in these new lifts no because you you have to either commit fully on

00:19:53 fully on or not at all so the idea is not to do it and still practice the day with the boroughs in london and so you wouldn't examine for example whether it had been practicable to installed

00:20:03 installed uh the trapdoor no because of putting the trap that will create more risks

00:20:10 risks well that might be true in relation to the trap door but let's take something that wouldn't create a risk for example as a secondary and separate power supply it wouldn't still be classed as a

00:20:22 it wouldn't still be classed as a firefighter lift because the tesla would have to sign the lift off and it wouldn't comply as a fully firefighting lift so he couldn't sign it off as a fire fighting lift he'd have to sign it off as a fireman's

00:20:33 he'd have to sign it off as a fireman's lift

00:20:34 lift but would it not be worth i think this is the thrust of the question considering whether it would be a fireman's lift with some enhanced features

00:20:42 features it could well have been if these anything could have been looked at at the time

00:20:47 the time in hindsight yeah and these features added

00:20:50 added yeah can you remember at the time during discussions um whether you or anyone else raised the prospect either with butler and young or with david steppel or robin collin

00:21:02 or robin collin it's worth considering some additional features the trap door or the secondary electrical supply or water protection or anything like that now because we've worked to the specification

00:21:13 now could we look at your role as the construction director at grenfell and if we can go back to your witness statement which is apx quadruple zero eight seven double six

00:21:25 quadruple zero eight seven double six forward slash three it's at the very bottom of the page you say this um i was involved in the modernization

00:21:36 i was involved in the modernization project from an early stage now holding that point in your mind um could i ask us to go to apx quadruple zero

00:21:45 zero five six one nine

00:21:53 now you'll see at the very top of this page it's described as contract documentation for the refurbishment of two electric passenger lifts and replacement of one hydraulic passenger lift at grenfell tower

00:22:06 passenger lift at grenfell tower um do you remember ever seen this document before not the contract documents other specifications so if we just say for example go into this document we go

00:22:17 this document we go over to the next page

00:22:21 so slightly further in if we can to get to the substance so just stopping there looking at that index and we can go into the substance if you want to the word specification crops up a lot

00:22:32 the word specification crops up a lot what appears to be the case is is although this is called the contractual documentation it's in fact the specification is this something you is this the

00:22:43 is this something you is this the document you would have been provided with

00:22:45 with yes would you ever have seen would there ever have been a need for you to have seen the contract for example between rbkc and timo on the one hand and say butter and young or apex on the other

00:22:57 butter and young or apex on the other not necessarily at that time

00:23:06 now looking at the different areas of responsibilities um what was your understanding of butter and young's role in the project they would oversee the whole of the project from the

00:23:17 whole of the project from the specification to completion to ensure that we carried out the work in accordance with their specification and what was apex's role to fully comply with

00:23:27 with the books that were specified and if we could go to apx quadruple zero double five five one

00:23:44 this has this is a fact dated the 6th of august 2004 from ian morehouse of butler and young to paul thomas um can you help us who was paul thomas

00:23:55 um can you help us who was paul thomas what was his role at apex

00:23:59 paul thomas would have been our sales engineer at the time

00:24:06 if we look down at the substance of the facts

00:24:11 facts it says confirms that rbkc temer please to proceed with apex and if we go to the penultimate

00:24:22 and if we go to the penultimate paragraph at the bottom it says start on site is a critical date rbkc are anxious to achieve a major spend this year and perhaps gary can investigate on this

00:24:33 and perhaps gary can investigate on this can you help us to what that comment meant that would be on me procuring uh the materials and placing the orders on our suppliers for the control system the long lead items machine

00:24:44 the long lead items machine because they come from italy and there would have been a 16 to 18 week leading period for this so it would have been keen for me to get all the materials on order obviously to fall within the borough's spending requirements now if

00:24:57 borough's spending requirements now if we can

00:24:58 we can turn to the specification itself and get back to your witness statement which is apx quadruple zero eight seven double six forward slash four

00:25:08 four and this is the top of paragraph um top of the page is continuation of paragraph sixteen

00:25:13 sixteen and the first line at the very top of this page

00:25:16 this page you say the specification was very detailed

00:25:20 detailed if the specification contained anything that was

00:25:23 that was unworkable in the sense of it couldn't be done

00:25:27 be done it was undesirable was that would that something would those concerns be something that you would raise first of all with butter and young

00:25:34 young not normally because they would have been discussed during the tender stage if there was any questions for that specification that was pretty far in what they asked what batman young

00:25:44 and you didn't have any cause to raise any concerns no one of course to raise the question this specification and if i could go to back to the specification if we go to but

00:25:55 specification if we go to but quadruple zero double zero double four forward slash 20 and we look at paragraph two a point zero one

00:26:06 one and if we see five paragraphs down it's the one that starts with the word should anything and that says this should anything be omitted from this specification which is fitting and usually considered

00:26:17 which is fitting and usually considered necessary for due improper completion of the work

00:26:19 the work the tendril shall verbally bring this the attention of the supervising officer prior to tender submission with confirmation letter price submitting the tender return

00:26:30 submitting the tender return so looking at that at the tender stage if anything was missing from the specification then apex would have brought it to butler and young's attention because they would have done and at what level would that have been

00:26:41 and at what level would that have been done would you have raised it or does someone hire no that would probably be with a sales team

00:26:47 now um i don't know whether you've watched the evidence last week from mr ellis and mr warhat perhaps now we were told that the tmo had instructed

00:26:58 we were told that the tmo had instructed butler and young not to arrange for firefighting lifts to be installed first of all do you remember any such or hearing of any such instruction from the tmo

00:27:07 tmo to butter and young no

00:27:10 is that something that you would have been informed of in the usual course i would imagine so but the specification would have actually been especially would have said firefighting lifts which is normal

00:27:21 is normal put differently do you remember any concerns or complaints being raised by tmo or rbkc that a firefighting lift had not been installed

00:27:36 uh can we take it from your previous answers that neither you nor anyone at apex had any concerns about not fitting a firefighting lift at grenfell no concerns

00:27:49 no concerns uh did you or anyone else at apex to the best of your knowledge uh question whether uh leaving lifts as fireman's lifts was compliant with relevant standards it was at a time and that's for the

00:28:00 it was at a time and that's for the reasons you've given early on yeah

00:28:09 now if we could go um back to the specification and if we go to page 22

00:28:19 and we see their paragraph 28.05 under the heading regulations um it says this although it is recognized that the existing structural constraints shall prevent full compliance with harmonized

00:28:31 prevent full compliance with harmonized european standards the requirement is for the lift installation to include all of those items and features that do comply

00:28:39 comply as far as is reasonably practicable now that on its face um puts you on notice or rather refers to existing structural constraints

00:28:51 to existing structural constraints were there any existing structural constraints that were relevant here there would have been a bit depth in the headroom

00:28:58 headroom i didn't catch the first time i caught headroom what was the first bit pit death

00:29:01 death pit depth

00:29:05 do you know whether the advice of a structural engineer was sought in relation to either or both of those topics

00:29:11 topics no you don't know or i don't know

00:29:19 do you remember hearing any reference to any advice given by a structural engineer

00:29:24 engineer no um

00:29:27 no um could we stay within the specification we go to page 23 and paragraph 28.06 which concerns design standards and we'll see that it says this

00:29:38 says this the equipment and installation shall conform to this specification and to the relevant british standards including codes of practice and in particular bs 5605 bs 7255 and en 81-1

00:29:50 5605 bs 7255 and en 81-1 where the specification differs from those standards and codes the provision of this specification shall prevail reference the british standards and code of practice shall mean the addition current three months prior to the date

00:30:01 current three months prior to the date for return of tenders a certificate of compliance with the relevant british standards shall be provided to the supervising officer on request any changes during the course of the

00:30:12 any changes during the course of the contract and the relevant british standards and the code of practice should be brought to the attention of the supervising officer by the contractor it shall be understood that the existing characteristics particularly dimensions and clearances may not comply

00:30:24 dimensions and clearances may not comply with current british standards and these shall be qualified in the tender return now first of all

00:30:32 um so supervising officer is that right that is correct that'll be battering and what's a certificate of compliance with relevant british standards um ever provided by apex the supervising

00:30:43 ever provided by apex the supervising officer not that i'm aware of

00:30:47 um did they ever ask you for one to the best of your knowledge no i don't think they did no was a certificate of compliance usually not given is it unusual not to

00:30:58 usually not given is it unusual not to give it will you give the certification a compliance on a new lift on the seam up if not on a refurbished

00:31:08 now could i ask you something mr pointer i think i'm going to have to ask you to keep your voice up a bit sorry because the

00:31:14 the transcriber finds it quite hard sometimes to catch what the witness says sorry thank you now if we could stay in the specification but turn over the page to page 24

00:31:25 page 24 and paragraph 28.07 we see there under the heading related documentation and references

00:31:34 the first paragraph says this this tender documentation shall be read in conjunction with and its requirements are in addition to the general conditions of contract and any drawings and other documents

00:31:45 and any drawings and other documents issued with it and listen this invitation's tender and set out below and if we go to the very bottom of this page and i think from memory fourth from the bottom

00:31:56 we have bs5508 which is five precautions in the design construction use of building now bs double five double eight appears on the list of standards to be read here

00:32:07 the list of standards to be read here in conjunction with the specification now

00:32:10 now at first blush its inclusion suggests that compliance with firefighting lift standards

00:32:16 standards should have been considered um first of all is that a fair reading of that is a fair reading but it's not actually described within the specifications so it's not

00:32:27 specifications so it's not and not required remember whether you or anyone else apex the best of your knowledge

00:32:32 knowledge um when they were looking at this uh when their tender was being prepared raised where the firefighting left sought to have been no they wouldn't have raised it because the specification didn't call for it

00:32:44 the specification didn't call for it and so it follows from that that in your view at least it was obvious that the specification did not require a firefighting lift that's correct

00:32:57 firefighting lift that's correct now um could i turn to a separate topic which is

00:33:03 timing or opportunity for raising any concerns that apex may have had and if we can go to warren jenchner's statement

00:33:12 statement which can be found at apx quadruple zero eight seven seven four forward slash

00:33:22 five and we see it's four paragraphs down from the top it starts with the words the preparation the contract and he says this the preparation of the contract and therefore the specification

00:33:34 contract and therefore the specification of the work was the responsibility of bycl's that's button and young on the instruction of their client once completed and disseminated to apex excuse me there would be no scope for

00:33:45 excuse me there would be no scope for apex to enter into any discussions regarding changes to the proposed work design issues and suggestion for alternative plans and if we could just hold that in our

00:33:57 and if we could just hold that in our heads and go to apx quadruple zero eight seven eight three four slash two

00:34:12 and you see under the heading answer the first one of those and if we go down to the third paragraph under that emboldened word anser he said once awarded the contract

00:34:25 anser he said once awarded the contract the site meetings would be held prior to the project starting and any issues could have been raised with bylc at this time would you agree with mr jensen's observation that apex could have raised issues with butler and young before the

00:34:36 issues with butler and young before the project starting now they would have any concern with their project and their specification the meeting there they're referring to would have been anything on site issues storage

00:34:49 anything on site issues storage container issues that's what that is referring to so the practicalities of operation of the site that's what that one means if there were any safety concerns

00:34:57 concerns again sorry this may be slightly repetitious but if apex had any safety concerns about specification when would they those be raised that they wouldn't be raised we'd follow the specification and they

00:35:09 we'd follow the specification and they will be replicated in their drawings and the issuing of the equipment so we wouldn't we wouldn't question the specification so even if there were safety concerns we wouldn't read that it's because safety concerns you know

00:35:25 so at what level presumably apex this may be a question for mr jensen to think about it but if there were safety concerns and presumably apex wouldn't stay silent it would raise them at some point

00:35:37 it would raise them at some point if there was serious concerns they would be right but there was no the only concerns of what we're talking about now if they were fire fighting or not

00:35:44 not and it wasn't relevant at the time we was only working to their specification and just for the avoidance of that there were no safety concerns raised the best of your knowledge there were no safety concerns

00:35:53 concerns can i now turn on to a separate um question which is the fire control switch and construction of the lifts and if we could go to tmo double zero eight five three seven six nine

00:36:13 eight five three seven six nine now if that could be amplified now it was an email sent by robin kaland at the tmo to ian moore house at butler and young that's you can't see

00:36:24 butler and young that's you can't see that it's redacted it was not sent to you i'll just let you read it

00:36:41 sent to you i'll just let you read it now it refers to the type of landing door release key would that key have been the same as the fire control switch key it would have been exactly the same it's being expressed drop key

00:36:53 being expressed drop key now it suggests that the original apex tender return made provision for a euro release key rather than a drop key um do you remember what apex had intended for originally

00:37:04 what apex had intended for originally not originally would they usually propose a euro key we would do either we would use a euro or a drop key depending on the specification we can change to either uh do you recall being asked to change

00:37:16 uh do you recall being asked to change the type of file control switch key from a euro to a drop we probably would have done that ourselves because of the type of building to suggest the drop key i'm not a euro key in that situation this is not

00:37:28 in that situation this is not practice you say the type of building can you

00:37:31 can you help the panel here what are you referring to there yes because it is a borough

00:37:37 borough a council type building and are you referring there um to security concerns will be securities concerns with the uok because everybody has access to them when you say everyone has access to key you say

00:37:49 everyone has access to key you say they're readily available on the internet and other sources yeah the express key was designed as a vandal resistant key now if we can go back to the specification which is at but

00:38:02 specification which is at but quadruple zero double zero double four forward slash six zero

00:38:13 there we go it's the specification of the section there of which deals with fireman's control now the switch was to be installed on the ground floor of the tower is that right that's correct and the fireman's control switch set out

00:38:24 and the fireman's control switch set out and specification is designed to be operate operated by an express drop release key is that right that's correct and the relevant stanzas at the time required that firefighting lifts have

00:38:35 lifts have should have a five control switch is that right that's correct and the difference between a fireman's control switch and the specification and a fire control switch described in the relevant standards

00:38:47 the relevant standards is the type of key used to operate the switch that's correct there is a difference and just for the avoidance of doubt a fire control switch is operated with a euro key

00:38:55 euro key which is a triangular design is that right that is correct and the dimensions of the euro key are specified in the relevant standard that is correct and so uh euro key is manic the euro key

00:39:07 and so uh euro key is manic the euro key is manufactured to very specific dimensions is that right but were the tmo well aware that euro keys were widely available

00:39:18 keys were widely available on the internet and elsewhere i would imagine they would have been at the time yes

00:39:22 yes and was that common knowledge it was definitely common knowledge

00:39:32 uh could we go back to your witness statement and apx quadruple zero eight seven double six forward slash sixteen

00:39:42 sixteen and it's your answer to question 21 and there you say you think that the fire control switches were procured from aa

00:39:51 aa electrical

00:39:55 now there's no other documentation that i've seen that identifies the switches in terms of make and model um is there any further detail that you can provide on fuller reflection here no it's just that we would have procured

00:40:07 no it's just that we would have procured that type of switch from our electrical and aaa electrical are they manufacturers they're a supplier i think i believe they manufactured as well

00:40:18 they manufactured as well do you know whether they manufactured uh the switch switches generally are they yes they do and is it like that they were the manufacturer of the switch we're concerned with here

00:40:29 concerned with here nice

00:40:33 now if we can uh go to page nine in your statement

00:40:42 and it's little c which is at the bottom of the page you say this from the drawings only one switch was fitted to operate both lifts as they were

00:40:53 as they were duplexed as identified as section 28.14 open brackets two closed brackets of the specification as they operated in this way one fireman switch allowed for control of both lifts

00:41:05 switch allowed for control of both lifts um

00:41:05 um can you explain for us how one switch operated both lifts because of this duplex together by the control system they will be interlinked so any switch

00:41:17 they will be interlinked so any switch that's signaled would bring both we'd actually stop the lifts where they were going doors would remain closed and bring their lifts back down to the ground floor where the doors would pop the doors open and that will give control to the firemen whoever's

00:41:30 control to the firemen whoever's activated that switch was it common to install

00:41:33 install one fire control switch for two lifts for joe collections uh were there any advantages or indeed disadvantages to using this method of control

00:41:41 control no no um could i turn on to the separate topic now for the commissioning of the lifts

00:41:48 lifts and if we go first of all to apx quadruple zero eight six nine two forward slash two eight

00:42:01 and if we can look at the right hand side

00:42:04 side of that document we'll see roughly a third of the way down parallel to the first punch hole the box purchases identification number and underneath that it says h09

00:42:17 and underneath that it says h09 does that mean this is the testing certificate for lift h090 that is correct thank you now if we could stay in this document but go to page 32

00:42:28 to page 32 so four pages on

00:42:32 and we can see just below or just parallel to the first punch point is clause 2.9 which concerns landing door assemblies and if we could

00:42:44 and if we could amplify that thank you you'll see the first question asks does this contract require the landing door assemblies to be fire rated and there's no answer at all

00:42:58 and there's no answer at all uh there can you help us as to why that particular box is not being ticked i can only guess that they they tested

00:43:09 i can only guess that they they tested at the time didn't have sight of the certificate for the door would says e confirm that the fire-rated elements

00:43:20 e confirm that the fire-rated elements of the door assembly are correctly fitted now would any detailed fire rating be provided afterwards if it were missing here it would have been but he's ticked it so he would have known the doors

00:43:32 he would have known the doors had the requirements of the fire assembly on the door they had the smoke fillets in place so he would know that they are fire doors we don't need to go to it but the commissioning certificate for the other lifts so 8091 does have

00:43:46 lifts so 8091 does have the box and the information box ticked and the information provided would that simply mean that the documentation was ready at the time of testing correct

00:44:01 now just to complete the point if we can go back to your witness statement which is apx quadruple zero eight seven double six

00:44:08 six forward slash seven that's really your answer to question seven b

00:44:17 uh you say that you cannot locate any certification relating to the fire rating the lift landing doors prop brook were unable to supply the certificates when requested um would you have expected the

00:44:28 um would you have expected the certification to have existed originally yes that would have been there would have been a certification for them doors

00:44:42 now if we can go to apx quadruple zero eight six nine two forward slash 42

00:44:55 thank you and it's sections 14 which starts just below the first punch hole the form indicates there that the lift was not a firefighting lift is that a correct reading of the

00:45:06 lift is that a correct reading of the document

00:45:07 document he's correct and if we look further down we see it little g the question requests confirmation that the emergency operation systems function correctly

00:45:18 operation systems function correctly and confirmation has given there yes is that fair reading of that that's correct yes now the form also says that the emergency operation system

00:45:29 says that the emergency operation system has not been demonstrated we can see that at the box at the just off center at the bottom of the page

00:45:36 page do you know why the emergency operation system had not been demonstrated at this time

00:45:42 time i can't answer that sorry would that demonstration have included testing of the fire control switch that would have been demonstrated the testers tested it i'd imagine but not demonstrated

00:45:57 and if we just go to page 44

00:46:04 we see your name in the bottom right hand corner would you be responsible for all elements of testing i would have signed that off on completion yes and you would have satisfied yourself as the accuracy of

00:46:15 satisfied yourself as the accuracy of all the answers yes

00:46:18 um can i now turn on to a separate topic it was the automatic fire recall system sorry before we leave this you haven't actually signed this document no i would have signed the original

00:46:29 original i think when they're typed out they don't actually get to me they get issued i'm just wondering whether this oh this this documents created after all the work's been done yeah it would have been done manually on site by

00:46:40 would have been done manually on site by the tester and handwritten and then we would

00:46:42 would type it to issue it so it looks better thank you

00:46:47 thank you turning on to automatic fire recall system now just so we can double check we're talking about the same thing the definition i'm applying is a system which when smoke or heat is detected

00:46:58 heat is detected um automatically records the lift to a particular floor is that for these purposes as good a definition as we're going to get yeah that is correct now before the lift works do you know if there was an automatic fire recall

00:47:10 there was an automatic fire recall system

00:47:10 system in place at grenfell not diary corner is it right that an automatic fire record system was not included in the specification i don't think it was now now it seems to

00:47:22 i don't think it was now now it seems to be added at a later stage in the project is that right that is correct yes and it seems to have been about late 2005 early 2006. that's great um can you remember now why the system

00:47:34 um can you remember now why the system was added

00:47:36 was added no i can't recall that sorry can you remember what type of automatic fire record system was ultimately installed

00:47:44 installed i think for memory it was it would just be a recall we'd put fault free contacts in the machine room and that would be integrated within the system fitted by others thank you was it connected to the building management system at all

00:47:55 building management system at all it would have been untested yes um can you remember was the system installed to allow the lift to comply with a particular standard or not that i wouldn't know you don't remember

00:48:06 that i wouldn't know you don't remember that as being a subject of discussion at the time

00:48:08 the time no not at all um did you test the fire record

00:48:11 record system not that i know but it would i wouldn't personally but it would have been tested do you know why the system was eventually disconnected no i don't

00:48:24 um can you remember that by the time of apex's later involvement in the left so this is 2015 can you remember whether the recall system was functional or not i wouldn't no sorry um can i

00:48:36 i wouldn't no sorry um can i turn on to that second project which is um

00:48:39 um certainly more than a decade after the first one apex became involved in the second set of works in about 2015. is that about right that's about right yes now um who was apex's tmo contact during

00:48:52 now um who was apex's tmo contact during project two would have been my project manager gary asia

00:48:58 now if i can ask us to go to apx quadruple zero 7916

00:49:06 and if we go turn over the page

00:49:11 there we go we have a letter of intent dated the 12th of february 2015. excuse me sent by ryden to apex can you remember

00:49:23 sent by ryden to apex can you remember now was there a concluded written contract between apex and ryden probably i couldn't tell you

00:49:33 would that be something that you looked for is it something a concern for other people

00:49:37 people probably a concern for other people i would dive minimum involvement in the project too uh now can you help us what was apex contracted to do uh during the course of project two uh supply and fit the four new entrances

00:49:49 supply and fit the four new entrances and upgrade the car cop to add extra floors in now if we can turn to page 13 of your statement which is apx quadruple zero eight six nine two forward slash thirteen

00:50:05 now in response to question twelve so it's um

00:50:08 it's um the top third of the page you describe yourself as having quotes an overarching supervisory role close quotes in the project

00:50:16 project what did that mean in practice i would have just

00:50:19 have just undertook the help gary of procurement materials

00:50:23 materials and basically looked he would look after the project did you supervise gary ager uh yes did you require sort of constant uh supervision or was it sort of occasional

00:50:34 supervision or was it sort of occasional help you provided occasionally if you need it gary's very competent

00:50:38 competent um was the issue of whether the lifts were or should be fire fighting lifts ever raised during project two do you remember

00:50:44 remember not that i'm aware of um can i ask you now about the walkway floor switch finally at the time of the fire a second fire control switch was installed

00:50:55 installed on the walkway floor but it had been disconnected um do you have can you assist the panel at all as to why that switch had been installed on the walkway floor no i've no

00:51:05 i've no recollection of that at all

00:51:09 do you know whether it was installed as part of the second project no i don't

00:51:20 well miss pointer i've come to the end of my prepared questions um sir might i have

00:51:24 have um tammy yes mr pointer when council gets the end of his questions you may know this we have to have a break to make sure that well to give him a chance to make sure he's asked all the questions

00:51:35 questions occasionally something's been left out and also to let other people who are not present in the room suggest questions that perhaps we ought to ask you before you leave so we'll stop now until five past eleven

00:51:47 so we'll stop now until five past eleven will that be long enough do you think mr canoe yes

00:51:50 canoe yes yes we'll break till 5 past 11 and then when you come back we'll see if there are

00:51:54 are any more questions for you okay um please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room and if you go with the usher now she'll look after you all right thank you thank you very much

00:52:14 all right find faster levels thank you

01:05:54 yes would you ask mr poynter to come back in please

01:06:06 right mr pointer well we'll see if there any more questions for you yes mr canoe uh thanks so i have no further questions for you mr pointer so just leave me to say thank you very much for attending today thank you yes mr poynter and it's right

01:06:18 thank you yes mr poynter and it's right that i should thank you very much on behalf of the panel for your coming here to give evidence it hasn't taken a lot out of your day but it must have been a nuisance anyway because you would have something else to do

01:06:28 do so we are very grateful to you it's been helpful to hear what you have to tell us and well now you're now free to go thank you thank you very much thank you

01:06:36 thank you [Music]

01:06:45 yes mr clear now no we have another witness but we have to have the usual break don't we for us keeping arrangements um yes and there's a changeover um at the bar as well

01:06:56 the bar as well and so i don't know whether this is maybe a convenient time to take a an early break and so um we could if we had a slightly short early break so to speak

01:07:07 early break so to speak and said 20 past would that give enough time for the housekeeping and for everyone else to get organized i'm sure right well we'll say 20 past 11 if you need any more time just let us know thank you

01:20:12 yes for substitution i gather you've got another witness for us we do yes may i call roger anthony please

01:20:19 please thank you

01:20:30 good morning mr anthony you're going to make the affirmation i think is that right

01:20:34 right i am it's on the screen there if you'd read the words out please

01:20:42 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare

01:20:46 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now do sit down please make yourself comfortable there

01:21:02 yes when you're ready to use your mr chairman can you please give the inquiry your full name uh roger anthony thank you very much for coming to give evidence today uh before i ask asking questions there's

01:21:13 uh before i ask asking questions there's a few preliminary matters i'd like to draw to your attention if you have difficulty understanding i think anything i'm saying or if my questions are excessively long and convoluted please do let me know and i will rephrase them

01:21:25 do let me know and i will rephrase them if you feel that you need a break at any point please let us know and can i ask you to please keep your voice up and say rather than nod or shake your head to any response any questions i asked so the transcriber

01:21:36 any questions i asked so the transcriber can pick up what you say yes thank you you made a witness statement to the inquiry and we're going to go to that

01:21:42 that now which is apx408780 if we turn to page 12 please it's dated the 29th of october 2019

01:21:55 it's dated the 29th of october 2019 is that your signature that's correct have you read your statement recently uh yes i have can you confirm the contents are true i can confirm this or yes thank you have

01:22:07 i can confirm this or yes thank you have you discussed your evidence with anyone before coming here today no thank you uh we'll begin by asking you some questions about your employment background if we could go please please go back to the

01:22:18 could go please please go back to the beginning of the statement of paragus 3 onward thank you you began working in the lifts industry uh in around 1982 is that right correct and you started working at otis lifts as a

01:22:30 started working at otis lifts as a fitters mate and were eventually promoted up to a project manager correct you moved to apex around 2005 or 2006

01:22:39 2006 and left in around 2007 or 2008. as far as i can recall yes and are you currently

01:22:46 currently working at picking pickering's lift as a test engineer i am can you briefly explain please what does a test engineer do uh checks the uh does the static

01:22:58 uh checks the uh does the static and um static tests on the lift the functional test on the lifts and the dynamic tests on the lifts to make sure it's safe and operational for the public

01:23:09 it's safe and operational for the public just touching on those terms briefly for those of us who are not lift engineers static is that when the lift is just stood in its place and not moving correct

01:23:17 correct and then dynamic dynamic testing is it would be the safety gear test the buffer test

01:23:22 test ie moving and functional functional tester

01:23:25 tester function functions of the lift as ie as in push buttons indicators and so on thank you that's very helpful so overall you worked in the lifts industry since the early 80s so around

01:23:38 industry since the early 80s so around coming up to 40 years now correct and how would you describe your level of knowledge of the lifts industry fairly knowledgeable can you help us please how do you keep up to date with changes and developments

01:23:50 changes and developments in lyft's industry and guidance and such it's a very good question um we

01:23:57 um we we're not directly told uh when the standards are coming out but we are made aware through the trade that they are coming out but um the only time we see the standards is

01:24:08 um the only time we see the standards is if if we ask for them from the company thank you that's half we'll touch on different standards in a minute so at apex you work as a project manager can you explain briefly what

01:24:20 can you explain briefly what that role entails please uh it was mainly my

01:24:23 mainly my running modernization product projects or refurbishment projects and which part of the project would you be involved in would it be tendering or

01:24:34 involved in would it be tendering or would it be that well i would i would get involved just before the site start the site work stuff so someone else at apex will sort out the preliminary stages yes how many

01:24:46 the preliminary stages yes how many modernization or refurbishment projects have you worked on before the grantful tower project please um

01:24:53 um quite approximately

01:24:56 turning to your uh qualifications if we can show paragraph six on the next page please

01:25:03 and zoom in on that please so um some of the qualifications of courses you you list there i can understand what they are but j5 and j25 are those lift engineer

01:25:15 and j25 are those lift engineer qualifications they're the lift they lift um industry qualifications from um i.e a mate to a fitter and where in the

01:25:27 a mate to a fitter and where in the third bullet point you refer to in-house urges

01:25:30 urges delivered training is is any of that relevant to lift fire safety yes can you elaborate please

01:25:38 please um the otis delivered training would be when i trained as a test engineer which is

01:25:45 which is um at that point i would come into contact with the standards uh because we have obviously have to test to british standards or enid standards thank you very much and

01:25:57 standards thank you very much and so in your role as project manager um in addition to your your lyft tester engine testing engineer would you come across british and european standards as well or is it yes that's the same

01:26:10 as well or is it yes that's the same and uh in terms of the period before you joined apex in about 2005 did you receive training on the principles and requirements of british standard five 5588-5 1991

01:26:24 british standard five 5588-5 1991 fire precautions in the design construction and use of buildings part 5 code of practice for firefighting stairs

01:26:30 stairs and lifts no specific training but i am aware of that document so you is it fair to say you were uh familiar with its requirements and substances and if you did need to consult it in

01:26:42 and if you did need to consult it in detail is that something you would have had in

01:26:44 had in your workplace or had access to otherwise uh if you're employed by a company they would have that on file yes similar questions in relation to another standard bsen

01:26:55 standard bsen 81-72 2003 safety rules for the construction and installation of lifts particular applications for passenger and goods lifts firefighter lifts uh it's quite a long

01:27:07 firefighter lifts uh it's quite a long title there but same questions is that uh one that you're familiar with yes i'm familiar with it but no no specific training yes and again is that one you could you

01:27:18 yes and again is that one you could you could obtain access to by your employer uh then and another one we will look at is uh

01:27:25 is uh bs uh 5588-5 2004. so this is uh an update to the 1991 version which was published in november 2004 does that bring any bells i haven't seen

01:27:37 does that bring any bells i haven't seen the update you haven't seen that and you mentioned when i started asking you questions about how knowledge about guidance coming out gets circulated

01:27:48 guidance coming out gets circulated would you have expected to be told by your employers or any professional organization that this has in fact come out

01:27:59 sometimes we hear of new regulations coming out sometimes we don't it's just uh if we need it we have to obtain it from somewhere

01:28:08 somewhere so is your evidence that um when you were with apex there wasn't a structured way for you to be updated such as new regulations this month emails were similar

01:28:20 and finally did you receive any training on the statutory guidance document so that's the secretary of state's guidance on fire safety under the building regulations approved document b to know specific training and were you

01:28:32 to know specific training and were you aware of this document no no in relation to firefighting lifts specifically did you receive

01:28:39 receive any other training which you haven't mentioned already on the design requirements of such lifts no specific training and what about general awareness what was your level of knowledge about them

01:28:50 knowledge about them in around 2005 yes i've worked on firefighting and when you worked on them would would it be a case of you being able to obtain the relevant documents yes

01:29:00 so your last question might have answered this one as well but did you receive any any training on the types of buildings in which a firefighting lift would be installed no specific timing

01:29:12 turning now to a slightly different topic which is your previous experience of working on high-rise residential buildings yes have you ever managed a lift refurbishment or modernization project in a high-rise residential building yes

01:29:25 in a high-rise residential building yes and can you assist in uh in terms of what those works generally would involve uh it was a very similar scheme to the scheme at grenfell tower

01:29:36 scheme at grenfell tower and so it was can you give us any details about the building in question yes it was barbaton estate the three tablets on the barbican estate and uh did it involve any um a

01:29:47 and uh did it involve any um a replacement of the lifts new lifts being put in yes a very similar scheme and what is the result of that scheme where firefighting let's put in is the result

01:29:56 result no because it was classed as a refurbishment

01:30:01 now a few questions about your professional background in relation to some of the participants in this project the tenant management organization which operated grenfell tower did you work with them prior to grenfell

01:30:13 did you work with them prior to grenfell tower project and whilst you're working with the tmo in the tower on the tower project did you have much contact with the tmls uh as i say my involvement started

01:30:26 uh as i say my involvement started just shortly before we started on site so

01:30:29 so we would have project meetings uh fortnightly to start with and then i think it was monthly viral and was your experience of any tmo staff

01:30:42 and was your experience of any tmo staff dealing with lifts you came across that they had require awareness of the british and european requirements for it

01:30:50 and was there anyone in particular that springs to mind when you answer that uh i can't recall anybody having knowledge of the uh regulations at meeting a gentleman called robin killarne

01:31:02 called robin killarne who was employed at tmo is that someone you came across i can't recall if he he sat at the meetings that i attended and

01:31:10 and dave staple david staples no i never met okay thank you um so the next set of questions i'm going to ask you about is um about your specific role

01:31:23 um about your specific role at grantful tower so you've explained the role of the project manager and now we're going to focus on the relationship between different parties in that project what was battling young's role in the project please they were the

01:31:34 in the project please they were the consultants the lift consultants for the projects

01:31:37 projects and what was apacs's role apex were carrying out the works on grenfell on the list so is it right that butler and young produced a specification to which yes you worked

01:31:49 you worked at paragraph 14 of your statements page three please if we can turn that up and uh amplify it please you say i was a project manager at the

01:32:01 you say i was a project manager at the time i was not involved in the procurement of the work nor the costing or tendering my first engagement engagement would have been in relation to the planning of the labor for the job and time scales for site works

01:32:11 works they're after dealing with consultants issues attending consultants meetings site monitoring testing snagging and handover

01:32:18 handover these are all matters you were just telling us correct so when you refer that to

01:32:22 that to consultants issues who do you mean and what are the issues if we found anything on site that would maybe not comply to specification

01:32:35 would maybe not comply to specification we would

01:32:36 we would get in touch with a consultant and discuss and did that happen at all frequently not to my recollection was as you mentioned here new evidence

01:32:49 was as you mentioned here new evidence meetings held between apex and butler and young was the design of the lifts ever discussed at those meetings

01:32:56 meetings no when i say meetings they we would we would have on-site meetings probably fortnightly yes

01:33:08 probably fortnightly yes and during those meetings there was no discussion of design no if you did have any concerns comments or suggestions about the lift design within the specification is that something

01:33:19 the specification is that something you feel you could have raised with butler and young it could have rised yes and if there were any safety concerns specifically with the proposal is that something you

01:33:30 with the proposal is that something you felt able to raise yes definitely and in your past experience of different projects did you ever raise such issues um not no because um the con consultant

01:33:43 not no because um the con consultant specification is normally pretty good but we'll discuss the specification now so a pack of 17 of your statement that we don't need to go to you say that

01:33:54 that we don't need to go to you say that part of your role was ensuring apex carried out the works in accordance the butler and young specifications that right yes correct so would it be fair to say that

01:34:04 that as far as you saw your role it was to following the latter to follow the letter of that specification exactly uh can we please go to uh but six zeros four four page 23.

01:34:23 it's a but six zeroes four four twenty three thank you and uh just zoom in on the bottom part of that page please

01:34:35 the design standards 2a06 the equipment installation shall conform to the specification to the relevant british standards

01:34:41 standards including scours of practice and in particular the 5655 7255 and en 81 1 where this specification defers on those standards and codes the provision

01:34:53 those standards and codes the provision of the specification shall prevail reference to the british standards and codes shall mean the addition current three months prior to the date for the return of the tenders a certificate of compliance with the relevant british

01:35:05 compliance with the relevant british standards shall be provided to the so that's uh the supervising officer yes uh on request any changes during the course of the contract in the relevant british standards and codes of practice shall be brought to

01:35:16 codes of practice shall be brought to the attention of the aso by the contractor so as so here is butler and youngs that are correct uh it shall be understood that the existing characteristics particularly dimensions and clearances

01:35:28 particularly dimensions and clearances may not comply with current british standards and knee shall be qualified in the tender return so going back to what we just read out the final sentence of the first bag of such

01:35:40 final sentence of the first bag of such that if there's any disagreement um between the standards and the specification the provision of the specification will will win out effectively is that right yes correct and is that the basis in which you would have operated as part of the project

01:35:53 have operated as part of the project in the second paragraph we read about the certificate of compliance um which shall be provided on request as far as you're aware was did butler young request a certificate of compliance uh since certificating of compliance um

01:36:07 uh since certificating of compliance um relates to new lifts i see so but this specification was in relation to this particular project wasn't it it was and uh from your witness

01:36:19 it was and uh from your witness statement your evidence that it wasn't in your left it was not a in those circumstances did you have any cause to to ask why why is this in here at all none

01:36:31 why why is this in here at all none no so your evidence that no certificate was

01:36:34 was requested or provided is that right as far as i recall now can we please go to page 24 next page over

01:36:47 there's a section there 2807 related documentation and reference is reading the introductory paragraph the standard documentation shall be read in conjunction with and its requirements are in addition to the general conditions of contract

01:36:59 general conditions of contract and any drawings and other documents issued with it enlisted in the invitation to tender as set out below and if we look at the bottom fourth entry from the bottom

01:37:10 entry from the bottom please bs 5588 fire precautions and design construction and use of building and as we've seen earlier one of the

01:37:18 of the bs 5588 standards is to do a firefighting list yes correct so uh this specif this regulation or the british land appeared in the list of standards to be read in conjunction with the

01:37:30 read in conjunction with the specification does that suggest that compliance with firefighting lift standards should have been considered by apex in its work um

01:37:42 in its work um not on a refurbishment no and can you expand on that please why not uh you would have constraints uh building the constraints to comply fully with the firefighting lifts

01:37:55 and what building constraints in this particular project did you have water dispersal two methods of you need secondary power supplies

01:38:07 intercom systems and would any in your experience with any of those features have been would have been insurmountable in this case

01:38:20 well insurmountable

01:38:25 to to get the water dispersal off the landings

01:38:30 landings would in my opinion have been a big task

01:38:37 so appreciating it's been a long time since these events occurred but to the best of your recollection was the viability or reasonable practicability of this feature ever discussed to consider it

01:38:48 discussed to consider it amongst the project sorry could you repeat that yes um those particular features the possibility of putting them into the lifts was that ever discussed either internally in apex or externally with

01:38:59 internally in apex or externally with butler and young i wasn't part of those discussions i can't say

01:39:04 can't say in your witness statement you describe this as a major project

01:39:10 in fact without going into the detail it much of the machinery of the lifts was replaced in effect yes do you agree that it would have provided

01:39:21 do you agree that it would have provided an opportunity to consider upgrading the lifts

01:39:23 lifts to have the features of the firefighting lift as far as reasonably practicable

01:39:30 i mean it could be done but it wouldn't comply so it couldn't be called a firefighting lift the test engineer can sign off as a firefighting lift

01:39:39 and a firefighting lift if i recall correctly has to serve every floor and i think

01:39:44 think at the time grenfell there was two floors that the lift didn't serve at that time

01:39:52 that time yes does that relate only to residential floors or any floors uh

01:39:59 not sure i think it's residential thank you well the inquiry will be hearing from mr hawkins an expert i'm not sure on that point thank you um so you say a pack of 15 of your

01:40:10 um so you say a pack of 15 of your statement we don't need to go to that you've read the specification before you started work uh did you suggest or anyone else with an apex

01:40:18 an apex to your knowledge the lifted grenfell tower perhaps should either be fire fighting lifts outright or have more features of firefighting lifts firefighting lifts out right

01:40:30 um so my question was whether anyone suggested

01:40:35 suggested that firefighting life should be put in is your answer that someone did i can't remember anybody's suggestion

01:40:43 the evidence from a the butler and young author of the specification ian morehouse last week was that the tmo provided specific instruction to battling young not to consider the feasibility of

01:40:54 not to consider the feasibility of installing firefighting lifts and the specification was drafted accordingly were you aware of that instruction from the tmo so it's not something that was discovered involved in those discussions no thank

01:41:06 involved in those discussions no thank you um

01:41:07 you um if i can mr anthony i'm going to interrupt just for a moment um i know you're keen to give us your evidence and we're very keen to hear it but it would help if you could let council finish his question

01:41:18 council finish his question before you respond because it's difficult the transcriber if people are talking at the same time okay sorry no it's right understand but that would help thank you thank you very much mr chairman

01:41:29 much mr chairman so if you weren't aware of that instruction do you agree that apex as a lift contractor should have raised the issue to at least discuss it of whether the lift should be firefighting lifts or at least have more

01:41:41 firefighting lifts or at least have more features of a lift

01:41:44 um not at that time i mean i've never seen a fight about fully compliant firefighting left in any local authority building to this day actually

01:41:56 day actually um so why would why would it be different at grenfell i don't know is your evidence then that it's more likely to find a firefighting

01:42:07 it's more likely to find a firefighting lift in a

01:42:09 lift in a non local authority building oh i don't know if that's the case but in my experience i have never seen a fully compliant firefighting lift in a local authority building and just

01:42:20 in a local authority building and just for our in enlightenment is that because there is and there are particular features which local authorities are not keen on or were they just different reasons

01:42:30 reasons i don't know the details but i can only um

01:42:33 um tell this inquiry what i've seen in it experience yeah i just wondered whether there was something common to all the lifts in that you'd seen in local authority do you follow a printed pretty standard

01:42:44 you follow a printed pretty standard specification most of them yeah all right thank you thank you um i will ask mr operator to go to mr hawkins expert

01:42:56 mr operator to go to mr hawkins expert report

01:42:57 report which is at rho703 at page 143

01:43:07 and zooming in on the bottom bagger please which i'll just read out if you follow along mr anthony just in fairness to give you an opportunity to comment with what mr harkin says there my view based on good industry practice that

01:43:18 based on good industry practice that apex first as a tender for the contract and then as a subcontractor had a duty to inform butlin young the specification did not comply with the relevant codes and standards

01:43:29 the relevant codes and standards it's likely that the first appropriate point at which this should have been raised was the initial site visit as part of the tendering process and you've explained you weren't involved in that had it not been raised at this point it

01:43:40 had it not been raised at this point it should have been raised subsequently for example once apac was awarded the contract

01:43:44 contract ideally this would have been in writing or would have been documented in the minutes

01:43:47 minutes of the meetings in relation to the second part of that involving the post tender work do you agree or disagree with his assessment

01:43:57 um that they could fit parts of a firefighting list that it was good industry practice uh it was

01:44:06 was sorry i think the point that council's asking you to consider that being made here is that um apex should have drawn

01:44:17 should have drawn the attention of butler and young to the fact that this um would not comply with current standards is that right mr houston yes thank you

01:44:28 is that right mr houston yes thank you mr chairman with current standards as in firefighting standards yes no it wouldn't have complied no should the question is should apex have said something

01:44:39 have said something to butter and young to say no you realize this isn't going to comply with current standards not really because butler and young which would have had that discussion with the client so

01:44:51 had that discussion with the client so once the specification is set and we follow the specification if i understand your evidence mr anthony once you see the specification you make you made the assumption that it's already been dealt with is that yes

01:45:04 already been dealt with is that yes and in your general experience it's a variation on the question i asked you in relation to safety issues but have you ever told lyft consultants or clients on previous projects that the specification didn't comply with the relevant

01:45:15 didn't comply with the relevant standards for lifts clients sometimes really consultants is that because consult you assume consultants to have more knowledge of

01:45:26 consultants to have more knowledge of yes what those are i'm turning to a different topic now the fire control switch

01:45:33 switch if we can please go to uh but 6044 at page 60.

01:45:46 so this section of the specification deals with a fireman's uh control switch uh is it right that this switch was to be installed on the ground floor at grenfell tower yeah which was the fire service access

01:45:57 which was the fire service access yes and the control switch set out in the specification is designed to be operated with an express drop release correct and we've heard evidence from butler and

01:46:09 we've heard evidence from butler and young last week that the tmo had specifically requested the firemen switch was operable with that type of key were you aware of that i was yes and what what information were you given

01:46:20 and what what information were you given about that please uh about the key about the decision that it must be an express drop key it's uh standard practice on local authority lifts to use that key

01:46:32 the relevant standard time sorry at that time sorry yes has that changed now

01:46:38 now i i believe some have gone to the triangle key so when you refer to the triangle key the relevant standards at the time required

01:46:46 required uh the switch to be operated by euro key which is a angular that's a triangle okay yes yes mr anthony i'm sorry to remind you again if you could just wait until i finish my question please thank you so that's the dimensions of

01:46:59 thank you so that's the dimensions of that triangle key unlike an express drop yes specified in the regulations aren't they sorry because you repeat that yes the dimensions of the euro triangular key are written out in the regulations

01:47:11 are written out in the regulations yes what was the concern as far as you're aware of using that type of key as you said in a local authority building

01:47:23 local authority building the triangle key no the express drop key the express drop code was used in nearly all

01:47:29 all local authority buildings at that time yes i i apologize it's entirely my badminton thing i meant to ask what was the concern about using the triangular euro key in local authority buildings i

01:47:40 euro key in local authority buildings i believe at that time they were quite easily available the inquiries received evidence from a from a firefighter who bought three keys three of the

01:47:51 who bought three keys three of the express drop keys from ebay were you aware at the time that uh about their availability online or to be accessed in that way not at that time now did you

01:48:03 not at that time now did you express any concerns uh to the tmo about the choice of that express drop key or was it just uh standard practice no i didn't express any concerns at all

01:48:15 turning next to the issue of how the works themselves went day to day the pack of 19 of your statement if we can go to that please on page four you say as far as i can recall the

01:48:27 you say as far as i can recall the project ran smoothly and delivery was to schedule

01:48:30 schedule and we're just going to look at some documents from that time describing the works if we go to

01:48:37 apx405627 please

01:48:45 if we zoom in on the top half please we can see it's a letter from steve alice at butler and young to warren jenchner at apex and first paragraph

01:48:56 paragraph i'll read out for you it is with a certain amount of sadness and a great deal of frustration that i'm obliged to send your company the attached certificate of non-completion something i have had to do only twice before during my 15 years

01:49:09 before during my 15 years as a consultant is are you familiar with that letter no no um were there some problems in the running of the project uh there'll always be problems on a major project on this scale

01:49:21 project on this scale um but it's from memory

01:49:25 i can't recall i can't recall anything too drastic to be honest well we'll we'll look at a document which may help jog your memory which is apx6093

01:49:36 help jog your memory which is apx6093 please

01:49:38 please and this is a response from warren jensen on 13th of january 2006 to steve alice detailing a number of problems

01:49:46 problems if we could scroll down just a bit please so we can see more of the text and reverse first of all is this ladder that

01:49:55 that you've seen before no well i'm going to ask you about some of the particular issues mentioned there so first is access to the building is very restricted yeah that's correct yes and then there's

01:50:09 yeah that's correct yes and then there's a reference uh in the middle of the page beginning with it was decided that we would have to devise a revolutionary method of moving the guides to accommodate the new 12-person lift installation the method finally agreed

01:50:21 installation the method finally agreed in hindsight was time-consuming and labor intense although as with all new systems the works became easier on the second lift does that sound familiar though yes can you explain what those issues were please

01:50:35 explain what those issues were please sorry what was the issue with using this new guide rail the guide rails had to be relocated to accommodate the new car which would have meant complete scaffolding of the lift shaft

01:50:48 scaffolding of the lift shaft to move them so looking at these documents do you accept that the project doesn't seem to have run uh smoothly and to schedule as you said these are quite standard problems on

01:50:59 these are quite standard problems on this

01:50:59 this job this size okay and the lifts had to be refurbished with residents still living in the tower did that affect the options available to you doing the

01:51:10 the options available to you doing the works

01:51:11 works uh yeah that was quite restrictive but it's it's normal practice on both authority lifts i'm now going to turn to the issue of commissioning of lifts

01:51:22 commissioning of lifts and paragraph 18 of your statement which is page 3. have a look at that please thank you and thank you very much once the works were completed i tested

01:51:33 completed i tested one of the lifts as apex as normal tester was unavailable at the time correct copy your copy of the test certificate is attached marked exhibit and there's a number there um just for

01:51:44 and there's a number there um just for the transcript that number is as a typo and it should end in a two

01:51:48 a two a test of a lift involved all starting and dynamic tests of the lift equipment and functions picking up on that why why do you test only one of the two lifts

01:52:00 only one of the two lifts because uh apex's normal tester was available for the second lift so he tested the second lift i believe he was on holiday at the time that the first lift came up for testing we'll have a look at the relevant

01:52:11 have a look at the relevant documentation if we can go to apx four 8 page 65 please

01:52:24 thank you and um we can see if we can enlarge the top half please uh that it's on the right there under purchaser identification number it

01:52:36 under purchaser identification number it says h08091 yes is that the lifted number that's the lift you dealt with yes can you explain

01:52:47 yes can you explain briefly please the sort of task that you would do within the static dynamic functional framework uh while commissioning a lift it will take a while to go through the testing

01:52:58 a while to go through the testing focusing on the ones which have to do with fire safety in particular fires uh fire safety you would check the landing doors um uh where all the elements were correctly

01:53:10 uh where all the elements were correctly fitted for the fire rating as in the smoke phillips and the door brackets

01:53:16 brackets the extra drawer brackets to stop uh or to try and prevent the buckling of the frame

01:53:22 the frame if it was under fire conditions um apart from that it's just the fire controls

01:53:30 controls on the ground we'll look at the relevant parts of the certificate in a minute can we please go to page 69 of the same document and focusing on section 2.9 near the

01:53:43 and focusing on section 2.9 near the middle of the page there you mentioned in your answer just now the landing door assemblies and it says that um does the contract require the landing door assemblies to be fire rated

01:53:54 be fire rated yes if yes what is the fire rating requirement two hours is the test certificate available in an order yes if yes and the doors are manually operated is the means of fire prevention a fusible link not applicable

01:54:07 a fusible link not applicable so can you explain please what that means in practice how would you test that or check that uh it's it's basically a visual visual check um as you

01:54:18 check um as you you inspect the inside of the landing entrances from the car top to make sure all the elements of the fire rated doors were fitted did you check at that time

01:54:30 you check at that time any test certification or documentation to do with the the doors uh no being a project manager manager for the job i i knew at that time that they were they

01:54:42 i knew at that time that they were they um they were being independently assessed uh for the fire certificate for the two hour rating so when you take yes to is the test certificate available in an order you

01:54:53 certificate available in an order you didn't actually have the i didn't no i as i say being the project manager for the contracts um

01:55:02 i knew the doors were being rates if i rated i can't i think it was warrington's i can't remember who else can we turn to page 80 please

01:55:16 and zoom in on the bottom half please

01:55:21 and scroll down just a little bit please so we can see the whole of the box at the bottom so the form there we can see in the next to the two boxes

01:55:32 we can see in the next to the two boxes says the emergency operation system was demonstrated to steve ellis at butler and young correct and emergency operation system what are the components to that

01:55:43 components to that system please the emergency operation system that would be would be the fire control

01:55:49 control so it is just another word for fire control and how would you have tested that fire control switch uh well by turning the switch at the ground floor um mate we would normally turn the

01:56:02 um mate we would normally turn the switch

01:56:03 switch when the cars were travelling in the up direction to make sure make sure they stopped at the next available floor the doors did not open and they would return to the fire service access level

01:56:14 return to the fire service access level at which point the fire fire service could take control of the lifts and the the enquiries heard evidence that was this was a duplex system so there's

01:56:23 there's one switch for two correct swifts are you able to recall when you activated the switch did both come down both both lifts came down uh sorry no they wouldn't have done it that time i

01:56:34 they wouldn't have done it that time i did the first lift no it was just that one because the second one was still it's still under construction yeah

01:56:40 and what key did you use to activate the fire control switch at that time it would have been an express drop key are you able to say where it would have been

01:56:50 been obtained from manufactured sold by it would have been obtained from lift components limited which is the only company that supplied that key and is that something you would have obtained via apex yes

01:57:03 thank you and just a a final reference in this document page 82 please that's the under the certificate is that your signature at the bottom it is

01:57:14 your signature at the bottom it is and on the next page please

01:57:18 and there as well yes yes just a few final questions uh to do with the automatic fire recall system the inquiry heard evidence from mr alice at

01:57:29 inquiry heard evidence from mr alice at butler and young last week that there was a system of that nature installed

01:57:34 installed as part of the pro of the works that we're discussing here or the uh shortly following it do you recall that no it was

01:57:41 no it was i think that that was after the works that were finished that was installed and that wasn't in the specification do you have any knowledge as to whether the system was disconnected if so by whom and when

01:57:57 thank you very much mr chairman those are the end of my pre-prepared questions oh right well and mr anthony when council

01:58:06 council says he's got to the end of his questions we always have a short break to make well first of all to give him a chance to check that he's not actually missed anything out and also to give other people who aren't here a chance to

01:58:18 here a chance to suggest additional questions that perhaps we ought to ask you so we'll have a break now um how long do you think mrs ten minutes long enough that would be fine thank you well say ten past twelve

01:58:30 ten past twelve and then when you come back we'll see if there are any more questions we need to ask you thank you while you're out of the room please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it if you'd like to go with the ashraful

01:58:53 right 10 plus 12 please

02:10:25 yes would you ask mr anthony to come back in please

02:10:37 all right mr anthony we'll see if there are any more questions for you yes mrs no more questions the chairman which leaves me uh thank you mr anthony for your time and assistance today thank you well mr anthony thank you very

02:10:49 thank you well mr anthony thank you very much indeed for coming to give your evidence

02:10:51 evidence we haven't taken a lot out of your morning but it's probably ruined your day

02:10:55 day you probably had something else to do but uh it's been very helpful to hear from you

02:10:59 from you so we are very grateful to you for coming along and now you're free to go thank you if you go with the usher she'll look after you thank you very much

02:11:16 yes justice i think we have another witness on the program don't we but he's not perhaps yet ready is that right that's my understanding as the chairman yes mr wallace

02:11:26 wallace and he was asked to be here for two o'clock is that right yes right well in that case we'll break now and we'll resume at two o'clock when we should look forward to seeing the next witness thank you

02:11:37 next witness thank you good thank you very much