Evidence from Mark Wallace, lead engineer at Otis/PDERS, about lift maintenance at Grenfell Tower. Wallace discusses fire control switch testing, door safety issues, and maintenance procedures from April-June 2017.
00:00:19 yes mr now you have another witness for us
00:00:21 us yes may i call mark wallace please good thank you very much
00:00:33 good afternoon mr alice good afternoon you're going to make the affirmation i believe
00:00:38 believe on the screen in front of you please yeah i do solemnly and sincerely and truly declare and affirm
00:00:45 affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth
00:00:49 the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much do sit down please make yourself
00:00:56 comfortable
00:01:01 right yes when you're ready mrs thank you can you please give the enquirer your full name it's mark scott wallace thank you very much for coming to give evidence today before i ask
00:01:12 evidence today before i ask questions i'd like to remind you a few procedural points if i may first of all feel free to ask for a break at any point if i am speaking too
00:01:23 at any point if i am speaking too quickly or too quietly or in a convoluted way please do ask me to rephrase my question okay um and please do keep up your keep up your voice so the transcriber can hear you and also just wait until i
00:01:35 can hear you and also just wait until i finish speaking and equally i'll wait until you finish speaking so that that transcript can be maintained accurately okay thank you you've made a witness statement for the inquiry i'm going to take you to that
00:01:46 inquiry i'm going to take you to that first
00:01:47 first it's pdr6036 if we go to the final page please nine
00:01:56 and that's dated the 28th of october 2019. is that your signature nice and have you read your statement recently i have can you confirm the contents are true
00:02:07 can you confirm the contents are true yes
00:02:09 yes have you discussed your evidence with anyone before coming here today no thank you i'm going to start by asking you some questions about your employment history and qualifications for the transcript this relates to
00:02:21 for the transcript this relates to paragraphs five to six of your statement but we don't need to turn them up you began working in 1990 in the schindler group as an apprentice technician is that right yes sir and in this period you also
00:02:32 yes sir and in this period you also obtained the btac in lift engineering yes sir and then you took uh two years of on-the-job training that's correct yeah and then you went on to obtain an ordinary national certificate
00:02:44 ordinary national certificate in lyft engineering yes and then you were appointed a senior engineer in about 1998. that's correct he then went on to complete a level four nvq and lyft engineering in around 2003 2004.
00:02:57 engineering in around 2003 2004. that's correct and in 2016 you joined otis pders is that right yes and before we move on my questions can you explain the best you can without going getting
00:03:09 the best you can without going getting too technical and legal what is the relationship between pdrs and otis are they one of the same they're a subsidiary subsidiary company they're all under the one banner but they run as separate entities
00:03:21 they run as separate entities so is pdr rasp the subsidiary yes thank you so overall by 2017 you've been working in the lift industry since 1990 so about 27 years that's correct
00:03:34 so about 27 years that's correct turning now to your involvement in maintenance at grenfell tower can we turn up paragraph 7 of the witness statement please
00:03:44 if we just blow that up a bit please and says there just summarizing that in april 2017 you were assigned
00:03:51 assigned to work the uh kctmo contract covering 60 units and that included the lifts at grenfell tower yes that's correct just to clarify for us please
00:04:01 please when you say units is that buildings or lifts that's a single lift and your role was a lead engineer that's correct what were the responsibility of a lead
00:04:12 what were the responsibility of a lead engineer
00:04:13 engineer i was in charge of the team running day to day
00:04:18 to day also in contact with kctmo on weekly meetings and also daily if they required
00:04:29 meetings and also daily if they required me to do something or action something to
00:04:32 to do with the lifts basically so were you the point man for this contract i was yeah and as as part of your on the ground activities did you undertake routine as well as
00:04:43 did you undertake routine as well as reactive maintenance yes and that's including at grenfell thailand yes so you would also if someone had an issue and you were in judy you would go and
00:04:53 and respond to that call to fix it yes i would yes
00:04:57 would yes so let's uh if you can cast your mind back to when you started this contract to you were signed it when you took it over the street what information or documents were you given about the lifts at grenfell tower in particular
00:05:08 particular um not any documentation specifically relating to grenfell was told to be honest with you i was given a root list which uh told me what lifts were in which buildings
00:05:20 what lifts were in which buildings and how many there were but that's about it
00:05:24 it and uh did you think that you should ask for more information or more documents about lifted a particular building no because um doing our job you you generally a lift
00:05:36 doing our job you you generally a lift is a lift
00:05:37 is a lift yeah they do have different control systems but um it's still a box that goes up and down on wires
00:05:47 did you have a handover from your predecessor as the lead engineer uh not my predecessor as a lead engineer but my team actually um helped me
00:05:58 actually um helped me and introduced me to the area where the buildings were how like you know previous issues that they'd had we'd sat down and we'd had a discussion about that and
00:06:09 about that and uh yeah they were pretty helpful to me and appreciating this is some time ago but
00:06:14 but the best of your collection was any mention made of any previous issues at grenfell tower in this chat uh only with uh the door gear that was the only thing that was brought to me
00:06:25 that was brought to me can you help us the the noise on the on the doors the the actual car doors themselves that was actually brought to me by patrick barrett who was my point of contact at kctmo
00:06:38 contact at kctmo thank you we'll get to some specific issues uh later in the questioning and did you feel that you had enough information based on your experience to to deal properly with maintenance at grenfell tower even though you didn't
00:06:50 grenfell tower even though you didn't have documents yes looking at routine maintenance visit generally how often would you have those at grandfather once a month how long would a typical
00:07:03 once a month how long would a typical maintenance visit last roughly two hours it's 24 floors so roughly around about two hours is that two hours per lift per lift four hours in total yes yeah and would you do this
00:07:14 you do this visit your routine visits alone or with a colleague i depended really i mean um generally you would be alone because we do single man working
00:07:25 do single man working but they liked us to work two men as much as possible um i did end up having long after this happen
00:07:36 did end up having long after this happen but i got an apprentice and he was with me throughout my time up there
00:07:41 there at kctml i'm going to ask you some questions about what would actually happen during those two hours per lift
00:07:48 per lift but to help you um refer to the document can we please see pdr6055 if we just uh focus in on the first
00:08:02 if we just uh focus in on the first paragraph please
00:08:05 so this is the field service handbook does that look familiar um it's been a while but yes if you look at the top paragraph there it says that uh
00:08:18 the top paragraph there it says that uh information contained within this handbook is intended for use by trained otis group engineers so that's one you or one of them affected yes um was are you able to assess whether
00:08:30 um was are you able to assess whether this particular document was something you
00:08:32 you you took with you on jobs or something you had back in the office that would have been in the van and is this something that you were trained with reference to when you started
00:08:42 started and uh when i first started in my induction they would have yeah they did show us this document yes can we go to page for this document
00:08:52 please
00:08:56 you see section 1a there um otis sure instruction maintenance procedure is this the procedure which you would have applied to the lifts of grenfell tower pretty much yes as it was
00:09:08 pretty much yes as it was my first visit up there i as due diligence would have checked everything to make sure i was happy with it
00:09:19 it as i was a new engineer looking at those lifts
00:09:23 lifts so i yes so that's your april 2017 visit yes we
00:09:28 yes we will look at the records of that in due course coming back to this document we we see
00:09:32 we see two columns m1 and m2 and there's also further down uh in fact there's a reference in the black second line to an annual check can you explain
00:09:43 explain to us please what m1 and m2 mean first of all i can't remember do they refer to month one and month two to ro
00:09:51 to ro as a rotating system you cannot kind of system i i can't remember to be honest with you
00:09:56 with you looking at the substance of what says there what it says there in terms of checks to be doing does that look like what you would check on a normal monthly visit
00:10:06 visit yeah pretty yes yes i would check that yeah
00:10:09 yeah it looks as though there are some things which
00:10:12 which are checked every visit yes and some which were only checked perhaps every other visit i don't know yes that's generally how it works yeah
00:10:23 yes that's generally how it works yeah can we look at page six of this document please about halfway down the page we could uh magnify it thank you the so reading just above the the
00:10:36 the so reading just above the the the riding in the lift car in bold the following is the recommended sequence of inspections for the m1 visit um i'm so i'm not going to read all of these in detail but i'm going to ask the operator to go through them quite
00:10:47 operator to go through them quite a bit of a pace and you can tell us if that looks like the sort of checks you were doing is that okay okay all right so if we go over to
00:10:54 over to page seven so that's you can see machine room
00:10:58 room checks when the lift is running there's a
00:11:02 a an engaging picture of someone checking a risk assessment there yep over the page again please and then we see motor motor generator selector overspeed governor landing spit
00:11:14 selector overspeed governor landing spit and car top yeah some some of this doesn't apply um like motorhome generator that that was you know
00:11:24 you know old dc injected lifts they're generally ac now so so if uh if if a lift in a particular building had some of these features
00:11:35 building had some of these features you'd only check those features but yes you wouldn't check yeah because he wouldn't have it so and just the next page please
00:11:44 and there's some some more checks about the pit and so on yeah so overall is this an accurate summary would you say of maintenance procedures as applicable yes so we're looking at m1 there and
00:11:56 yes so we're looking at m1 there and let's look at m2 now it's page 11 please
00:12:02 uh so that you see involved they're the following there's a recommended sequence of inspections for them to visit so much of it is the same so again i'm going to take it quite quickly uh yeah writing in the lift card next page please
00:12:14 page please see much of the same entries slightly different picture checking operation the control panel there yes and next page traction checks when the lift is
00:12:26 traction checks when the lift is isolated
00:12:27 isolated and if we could just scroll through the next two pages giving it a few seconds each
00:12:31 each we see this break selector that's that's a that's a generator that's a that's for generator yeah that's a carbon brush thank you it's top of the shaft
00:12:42 thank you it's top of the shaft overspeed governor landing doors i imagine applies to all lifts 17 16 next please counterweight yep and lastly 17.
00:12:56 yep and lastly 17. that's we see the pit and underside again so
00:12:59 again so would you agree that the manual we've just seen sets out a detailed procedure for the maintenance visits
00:13:06 visits it does yes thank you so turning to maintenance visits specifically what you would accomplish on them a paragraph seven of your statement we don't need to turn up you refer to carrying out checks
00:13:18 you refer to carrying out checks detailed in the maintenance schedule and we'll just look at a document that might be that pdr6046 page two please
00:13:34 pdr6046 page two please does that uh look your document look familiar
00:13:38 familiar i don't remember seeing this yeah i may have been
00:13:42 have been yeah well let me see how far we can get with it uh so this shows 12 boxes one is pretty correct sorry so
00:13:54 is pretty correct sorry so if i just give an outline for the for the transcript so 12 boxes one for each month
00:13:58 month and it says standard maintenance phase on the top of each one and then for each one there seems to be almost all except for month five there's an additional bit um so does that suggest there's a you do
00:14:10 so does that suggest there's a you do the standard checks every month and then you do an additional bit of checks um it depends on how you actually work yourself to be honest with you this is a guidance
00:14:21 you this is a guidance yeah um
00:14:25 i would work on a sort of three-month rotating basis motor boom shaft pit area so that i knew that i was checking
00:14:36 so that i knew that i was checking everything that needed to be checked on a regular basis so yes it's pretty much uh man's two and eight and i appreciate
00:14:48 uh man's two and eight and i appreciate what you say that you're working on a slightly different schedule that says uh insurance items is the additional uh element to be honest with your insurance items as soon as you've got the report from the insurance inspector
00:15:01 the insurance inspector you on your next visit you would check that against your maintenance and try and clear as many of those items as you possibly could without needing
00:15:12 as you possibly could without needing parts
00:15:13 parts or having to quote the client for something
00:15:17 something you preempted my next question is that i was going to ask whether you would only do the
00:15:21 do the check up on those items in those designated months but your evidence is you do it as soon as possible yes and jumping out slightly at grenfell tower would those have been reports thorough inspection of lyft's reports by
00:15:33 thorough inspection of lyft's reports by bureau veritas that would have been yes i believe between taking on the contract in april 2017 and
00:15:40 2017 and the fire at grenfell tower on the 14th of june of that year how many routine maintenance visits did you undertake there
00:15:46 there two you've exhibited records of those two visits and i we're going to take them in turn the april 2017 visit please first going
00:15:57 the april 2017 visit please first going to pdr
00:15:58 to pdr six zeros 33 at page two thank you if we could uh just enlarge
00:16:10 thank you if we could uh just enlarge the top half for now thank you very much so we can see under uh unit reference uh fourth box on the left that's h090 so that's one of the two left at grenfell
00:16:21 that's one of the two left at grenfell tower yes
00:16:23 tower yes and we see the date of the service report on the 27th of april 2017 uh under the date of service visit report box just under there i believe if you go down the actual date
00:16:34 i believe if you go down the actual date that i did it was at the bottom yes if we could scroll down to the bottom please um the date that that um was at the top there is the date that that was submitted to the client i believe so we see that the the 12th of
00:16:48 i believe so we see that the the 12th of april
00:16:48 april 2017 and we that's not your name then we'll we'll deal with that in a second yeah why can you help us why there is that gap between the 12th of april and the 27th of april
00:16:59 the 27th of april i believe it's um it's a an administration thing we did the reports they go electronically to the back to the office
00:17:10 electronically to the back to the office and then the office would then collate those service visits and then passed them out to the client electronically and that would have been the date that
00:17:21 and that would have been the date that they would have sent them out to uh patrick and his team is that the usual gap
00:17:27 gap between i i couldn't tell you it was pretty much that throughout my time up there yes in relation to the name there a smart you explain paragraph 13 of your witness statement that mr
00:17:38 13 of your witness statement that mr smart's name appears there rather than yours because having started on the contract you didn't have a personal digital assistant at that time that's correct so he you prepared what needs to go in
00:17:49 so he you prepared what needs to go in the system and then you inputted the information he inputted the information using his pda or i used his pda but it was it was assigned to him so it come up with his name
00:17:58 name okay so my question was going to be do you recall this visit but i think earlier in your evidence you said this is the one which you've done everything to because you were just getting started
00:18:09 to because you were just getting started can you tell us a little bit about that please
00:18:11 please um well when you generally start on a new area
00:18:15 new area when you're looking at your lists or me personally i would literally look at everything to make sure that everything was okay because um you can't always rely on the people
00:18:27 um you can't always rely on the people before you so that is that is how i would do it i i always make sure that everything is in working order when i take on a new unit can we go to
00:18:39 when i take on a new unit can we go to the front
00:18:40 the front to the top of the page please the the top half
00:18:45 so we see there works completed on the left so
00:18:48 left so broadly it seems to be just divided into boxes we see filled and observations and works completed so those checks you were telling us about are those the checks you've identified there yes
00:18:59 there yes so we see car enclosure emergency alarm system
00:19:03 system many different areas is that everything as far as you're concerned pretty much everything yes we'll come back to this in due course but noting from that list that the
00:19:14 from that list that the um emergency recall system of the fire control switch aren't listed there no okay and observations on the right uh there's a number of uh let me ask you
00:19:25 uh there's a number of uh let me ask you about the observations are those matters which are left after your visit still or is that as you found it when you arrived that was how it no this these were actually put on here by previous engineer
00:19:36 put on here by previous engineer and reading it i wouldn't take them off until the items were actually dealt with
00:19:44 and we see there visit type m2 so i understand your evidence that you're not quite sure what m1 versus m2 is is m2 something that would have been answered later on m2 would just
00:19:55 answered later on m2 would just automatically come up on the actual device itself that wouldn't be entered by us that was already there okay so there's an accompanying document called the lift
00:20:06 accompanying document called the lift log book for this left and we're going to go to that next that's m e t three zeros three nine eight five seven page three please
00:20:17 does that look familiar yep can you explain where this document will be capped please uh in the lift monster at grenfell tower yes
00:20:28 and if we go to so this is for a h090 we can see the in big ladders there if we go to the next page please this shows a maintenance schedule
00:20:40 this shows a maintenance schedule various
00:20:41 various entries there's months on the left side various checks yeah and at the top uh we see dates and initials of people and ticks yes yes
00:20:52 initials of people and ticks yes yes there's an entry date at the 12th of april 2017 which is the second rightmost column in the schedule if we could just zoom in on that bit please
00:21:03 zoom in on that bit please thank you very much and that's as i'm was that
00:21:06 was that it was that's your entry yeah and it looks a bit like the four was written over another number do you know what that i think i'll put the wrong number in first okay and then we can see underneath a
00:21:19 okay and then we can see underneath a number of boxes being ticked and does that correspond to what you said in the electronic version that you created by the pda uh yeah pretty much um
00:21:31 pda uh yeah pretty much um yes thank you can we please now go to pdr
00:21:37 6035
00:21:40 page two this is the other set of exhibits to your witness statement and this one is we can see if we could zoom in on thank you very much is uh the
00:21:53 zoom in on thank you very much is uh the other left 91 yes yes so without going going over the same ground about the dates and so on it's got the same date of report and the same if you were to look at the bottom 12th of april is the date of the visit
00:22:04 12th of april is the date of the visit correct
00:22:06 correct and the section on the right observations um has many of the same not all but many of the same comments as the other left that's correct yeah would those have been left over from the previous engineer as well
00:22:17 engineer as well yes and we'll just quickly look at the corresponding log book which is met three zeros three five page five please
00:22:33 slightly messy there but we can slightly messy don't yes i did on my ear like this obviously my first visit to the area um a lot of these were
00:22:46 replaced where it says use other cards you know what that means in big ladders across the right side
00:22:57 oh that must mean that there must have been another blog card but focusing on um the maintenance visit on the next page over please
00:23:10 so quite similar to what we saw the second right most column uh again it's got your initials yes and that's that's a four as well i think
00:23:21 and that's that's a four as well i think it is a four yes so again do you mark off on this uh schedule the things you've checked and uh recorded on the digital version pretty much yes
00:23:34 if we could go back to page five please
00:23:41 and looking on the right hand side if we could zoom in please it's just under the fields that are in the middle there's an entry from that date as well 12 417
00:23:50 12 417 and it says um looked at safety gear grease stops sprayed doors and there's three sets of initials including yours can you give us a little information please about what this means
00:24:02 this means um i believe uh i found a problem and that's why i noted it on there yeah are you able to say what the problem was from um
00:24:13 problem was from um i think there was a loud noise coming from underneath the car and that's where the safety gear is located um also the doors were making quite a loud noise as well so i used some
00:24:27 noise as well so i used some spray to lubricate them to stop them from making the noise so i would have added that onto the log card as due diligence thank you that's helpful we're going to
00:24:38 thank you that's helpful we're going to turn now to your your second maintenance visit uh if we could go to pdr 6033
00:24:47 6033 page three please
00:24:53 this is in relation to lift h090 and dated the 31st of may as we can see there but at the bottom it's another entry uh by mr um
00:25:08 dated the 9th of may 2017. so that the date of the actual visit would have been 9th of may is that right that's correct
00:25:15 correct do you do you actually recall this visit
00:25:20 not now no unfortunately it's been a long time
00:25:24 long time okay well we'll look at some documents to see if it can help you recall but visit type here isn't m2 it's ass what does s stand for this is the
00:25:34 is the left side unfortunately i can't tell you that i don't know and i can't remember sorry okay and the work's completed again has a quite a long list of checks
00:25:46 quite a long list of checks uh would those all have been checks that you would have recorded from that particular visit it would be just that i i was still not you know i'm still it's not only my second visit so i'm
00:25:57 it's not only my second visit so i'm still looking at everything in my own to for my own benefit
00:26:04 and again just noting that the fire control switch isn't recorded there expressly no the right side of the forum observations um it has effectively the same
00:26:18 um it has effectively the same text as the previous report for this lift isn't it uh yes there's nothing been added or taken away so does that suggest that between your first visiting your second visit those problems haven't been addressed uh
00:26:31 those problems haven't been addressed uh yes some of them hadn't been addressed yeah yeah
00:26:34 yeah yeah i'd say all of them hadn't been addressed yes would you have expected someone
00:26:38 someone to have come out and dealt with them or yourself have dealt with them in the interim
00:26:41 interim um well the the seals leaking on the gear is a repair job that would have been reported to the office
00:26:49 office and planned in as a major is a major job to do
00:26:53 to do because you've got to take the lift out of service and you've got to pull the motor and gearbox apart to replace the seals so that would have been
00:27:00 been something that was being planned basically we just monitor it to make sure the oil levels are correct um yeah that would have been a planned
00:27:12 um yeah that would have been a planned uh repair without going into the detail of
00:27:16 of everything that said that were any of those issues to do with fire safety or relevant to fire safety no
00:27:23 look at the handwritten records now which is
00:27:26 which is met 3-0 39857 page four please
00:27:36 so same form we've seen before but this time we're looking at the right most column
00:27:40 column uh the 9th of may 2017 again mw your initials yes yes that's correct and then we see the same ticks i think well effectively the same ticks yes so does
00:27:51 effectively the same ticks yes so does that
00:27:52 that uh reflect that you what you checked on that occasion i think so yeah yeah i tipped what i looked at yes and uh both with this visit and and the previous visit do you accept that none
00:28:03 previous visit do you accept that none of these
00:28:03 of these entries and you can take it from me on the forum refer to the fire control switch that's correct we'll just briefly deal with other left for completeness
00:28:14 for completeness if we can go to pdr 6035 page three please
00:28:25 so similar entry by mr smart at the bottom same dates as with other report yes yep
00:28:34 thank you and if we could go to the works reported works recorded section on the left please and those are the um the checks again
00:28:47 and those are the um the checks again that
00:28:48 that you you carried out yes um and take it from me that it's they're recorded similarly on the other hand written lock card which i don't propose we go to but yeah you would
00:28:59 propose we go to but yeah you would you know them yes yes after the 9th of may 2017 visit when would the next maintenance visit have been due june when in june
00:29:12 june when in june roughly around about the second week [Music]
00:29:20 in general what was the prevailing nature of the maintenance issues at grenfell tower in your experience sorry can you what were the most common issues in
00:29:31 what were the most common issues in maintaining maintaining the lift at grenfell tower based on your two months um not really many to be honest with you i mean we had a couple of issues with doors
00:29:41 doors um but with a lift you're going to always get 90 percent of your problems with lift doors so
00:29:48 doors so that was the main thing i believe previously before i went up there they were having a lot of problems with them and all the door hanger rollers were changed
00:29:57 changed which actually improved the reliance of the lifts so no they were working pretty well
00:30:08 no they were working pretty well related to that there's a a mention of some works which we haven't quite been able to
00:30:13 able to identify and in some minutes that i'd like you to look at if that's okay it's a
00:30:16 a amity three zeros three nine four nine seven
00:30:26 these are the minutes of a meeting between uh pdrs and tmo the client you're not recorded as attending then so if you're not able to says do let us know but particularly
00:30:37 know but particularly we're looking at page two at 0.5 uh 5.0 sub.2 and refers
00:30:48 sub.2 and refers so this refers to works being carried out over the weekend with further works to be carried out on 9th of april that's correct i believe that was the
00:30:59 that's correct i believe that was the actual replacement of the landing door rollers
00:31:02 rollers that's it so that that's what you were talking about just now yes turning to a separate topic now which is specifically fire control
00:31:13 which is specifically fire control switches
00:31:15 switches how many file control switches did you observe at grenfell tower one where was that switch in the middle between the two lifts
00:31:27 and are you certain that was the only switch to be found there was a redundant one on the third floor i believe um but that was when there was offices there
00:31:38 there from what i can remember before my time basically we'll turn to look at that other switch but focusing on the ground floor operational switch first
00:31:49 floor operational switch first but generally can you explain the process please how would you test a fire control switch basically you would insert the key and you would
00:31:58 you would turn it so that you can hear it click and then you would wait for the lifts to actually come down to the ground floor
00:32:07 they will both come down open their doors up
00:32:11 doors up one will stay as redundant and the other one is for the fire brigade to use you get in you push a floor you then use the door close button to
00:32:22 you then use the door close button to close the doors when you arrive at the floor the doors won't open until you press the door open switch button in the car and it's a dead man switch so if there
00:32:34 and it's a dead man switch so if there is a fire
00:32:35 is a fire right there in front of you if you pull your finger off the door should close immediately and then you can get away from that floor that's how that works we've heard in evidence previously referenced to a peep
00:32:46 evidence previously referenced to a peep function is that uh yeah basically yes so this process you just detailed was that based on some courses you've attended or instructions you were given
00:32:57 attended or instructions you were given just general training over the years like i was in a as an apprentice you're taught these things
00:33:03 things so it's just generally you know how we're taught so has the basic process you just outlined changed since you started in the lifts industry
00:33:14 you started in the lifts industry not really no is that something that you were very accustomed to doing then yes yes so earlier we looked at the field service handbook and we looked
00:33:25 the field service handbook and we looked at m1 and m2 procedures and and we saw that it doesn't mention fire control switches there i'm going to ask to go back to that document please at the contents page at pdr six years 55
00:33:40 contents page at pdr six years 55 page two
00:33:47 so under section two we see annual checks yes and specifically focusing for the minute on d annual electrical and mechanical safety device examination do you see that there yes
00:33:59 that there yes and does that sound familiar yes okay let's look at the details of that page 95 please
00:34:11 so that that's the heading and specifically electrical safety device examination and then the next one is a list of electrical safety devices
00:34:22 safety devices as applicable yes there's very many different switches there most of which i don't i don't know what they do but we're only focusing for now on um the fire control switch if we turn to page 97 please
00:34:38 and we see firemen switch second second entry in bold yes about two thirds of the way down ensure the lift operates as designed when the switch is operated do you
00:34:49 when the switch is operated do you accept that's the only part of the documentation which refers to a fireman's switch i believe so yes so we've seen that it's not covered in
00:35:00 so we've seen that it's not covered in the monthly checks or m1 and m2 checks but it is covered in this annual electrical and mechanical device checking yes does that suggest that this
00:35:12 does that suggest that this fireman switch is only tested annually and not monthly a lot of companies do it annually some do it three monthly some do it six monthly
00:35:23 some do it six monthly it's also tested it as as well every six months by the insurance inspector um it's not i mean they don't they don't document it
00:35:37 i mean they don't they don't document it as in you have to like do this every month
00:35:42 usually you would just in case well your evidence in your witness statement is that you did do it twice during both visits the routine maintenance visits that you've done where does that practice come from that
00:35:53 where does that practice come from that comes from my own training and experience as a lift engineer thank you we'll we'll look at those checks in a bit more detail but firstly going back to this
00:36:04 detail but firstly going back to this annual check of switches according to the service rackets provided by pdrs of the
00:36:12 the monthly checks can we go to pdr6047 page 24 please
00:36:27 page 24 please thank you so this is an entry um same form as we've seen before service visit report
00:36:31 report date of service visit report 25th of february 2016. and if we look at the column on the left we can see second from the bottom in the list of checks electrical safety switch
00:36:43 list of checks electrical safety switch check
00:36:43 check yes so that uh take it from me that's the last reference to that particular check uh in between that date and the date of the fire
00:36:54 and the date of the fire right are you are you able to assist us to the best of your knowledge was another check annual check of these switches undertaken not an annual check no so if this is
00:37:07 not an annual check no so if this is february 2016 would you ex would you have expected another set of these same tracks
00:37:12 tracks in uh around february 2017 no oh sorry february yes yeah yes um are you able to assist us whether that actually happened
00:37:23 that actually happened i i i honestly don't know it was before i was actually there so i i can't comment on that okay then it's not something that was mentioned in your hand i should imagine it was done but i
00:37:35 hand i should imagine it was done but i i can't
00:37:36 i can't i can't tell you whether it was or not we're sticking just to what you're able to i can't tell you yes thank you
00:37:48 do you agree that where fire control switch is provided it is a crucial part of the fire safety equipment yes someone picking up a record of your maintenance visit for example tmo
00:38:00 your maintenance visit for example tmo as
00:38:01 as pdrs client would have no way of knowing from those records uh the two visit records we've seen that you had tested the fire control switch no they wouldn't not without actually
00:38:13 no they wouldn't not without actually going over to see what was done on the annual inspection yes well for someone to properly understand that the february 2016 annual inspection
00:38:24 the february 2016 annual inspection involved the track or the fire control switch
00:38:27 switch you would need to have the manual that the client wouldn't have presumably would it
00:38:31 would it no no okay paragraph 12 use witness statement we don't need to go to it you say that this component the pi control switch is not on the checklist because it's not common to every lift
00:38:42 because it's not common to every lift service by pdrs outside if you wait for the question please i'll say switch is present in the majority of the lifts you service
00:38:51 service um it depends really um i mean a fire switch is usually in a building
00:39:02 that doesn't have fire control built into the lift a lot of places have fire alarm systems that when
00:39:09 that when the actual alarm goes off it will automatically ground those lifts and like i say not every lift is a fireman's lift so it's very hard for them to
00:39:20 so it's very hard for them to distinguish which one is the fire left and which one isn't i believe it's i know it's practice now to actually note down which is which
00:39:31 note down which is which but it wasn't at the time
00:39:34 just exploring your explanation for why there wasn't a written record is it right that the checklist could include a reference or box
00:39:43 box to fire control switches and then if there isn't one in the building you could just say an a not applicable yes alternatively someone such as yourself could write down fire control switch in
00:39:57 could write down fire control switch in this
00:39:57 this free tax form that we can see on the left that i yes yes so that would mean wouldn't it that it would allow others to confirm it's been tested yes and would also mean it's not
00:40:09 and would also mean it's not accidentally omitted on an inspection because you can look back yes absolutely so do you consider that it was a sound practice not to record this information looking
00:40:21 not to record this information looking back i should have actually put it down that i
00:40:23 that i i checked it but i didn't thank you you mentioned earlier uh the the switch and the other switch the defunct switch so i'm just going to ask
00:40:34 defunct switch so i'm just going to ask you about that at pack of 21 of your statement we don't need to go up to it you said that you were aware there was an additional fire control switch on another floor of grenfell tower which had been left following the refurbishment of
00:40:45 refurbishment of 2014. yes i was told this by my colleagues did you do you actually see that switch uh i believe i went down to the third floor yeah um i don't you know it's a long time ago
00:40:57 um i don't you know it's a long time ago now to me
00:40:58 now to me but um yes i believe we did stop at the third floor as you were aware of this switch did you make any record or raids any concern about it still being there in spite of having been disconnected only talking to my
00:41:10 disconnected only talking to my colleagues why is that not being blanked off
00:41:14 off so if you wanted something to actually be done about it would the appropriate step to take be to put it in this document
00:41:22 document um not necessarily um it would have been one of the things that i was probably making notes of or in my in my head to speak to patrick about
00:41:35 in my head to speak to patrick about and did you recommend its removal to anyone whether pdrs not at the time no do you accept that the presence of another switch could cause potentially confusion in an
00:41:46 could cause potentially confusion in an emergency
00:41:47 emergency it could but that's that had been there for a very long time before i even turned up coming back to the ground floor
00:41:55 floor control switch did you ever encounter any problem when testing the fire control switch at grenfell tower no i didn't was the process of testing
00:42:07 no i didn't was the process of testing that switch the same as you described earlier in general terms yes how long would that particular part of the task of the two hours per lift to take
00:42:19 take about five ten minutes maximum um so long as you weren't disrupting the the flow of people in the building because obviously you get a lot of
00:42:30 because obviously you get a lot of tenants come in and they want to use the lifts
00:42:33 lifts but you still have to say to them can you give me five minutes just to check this
00:42:36 this and that was all very helpful and allowed me to do my job thank you paragraph 22 of your witness statement
00:42:43 statement we don't need to turn it up you say that on each of these two visits you specifically remember checking that fire switch was in good and proper working order by testing it can you please explain why you say you
00:42:55 can you please explain why you say you have this specific recollection i say this specific recollection because i actually you know it was my first couple of visits to the to the actual site itself and
00:43:06 to the actual site itself and from what followed the month after and i felt happy that i had actually checked it
00:43:13 it and i knew it was working at the time mr wells in answer to my question earlier about
00:43:19 about whether you recall the may visit uh your answer was to the fact that your recollection perhaps isn't isn't that good how do you reconcile that with the answer you give here um it's basically because
00:43:32 it's basically because of the fire that happened i know that i checked that switch do you have a specific recollection then as you give evidence today of checking the switch in may
00:43:43 the switch in may 2017. it's literally yeah i can remember checking that switch
00:43:50 as we've established given the absence of a written record did the tmo or uh your management or supervisors have a query whether you were in fact testing the switch and if it was working
00:44:01 it was working no never thank you that turning to a different component now it's part of the the same system the drop key the express drop key if we can go to exhibit four to
00:44:12 drop key if we can go to exhibit four to your statement which is pdr6051 page two please so uh the switch we were discussing for
00:44:25 so uh the switch we were discussing for the last 10 minutes or so uh is that operated by a drop key yes and uh is this the drop a picture of the drop key that you used to test
00:44:36 drop key that you used to test i do apologize again but you just have if you could just wait until i finish the yes i'll call myself sorry so is this the drop key used to test the fire control switch at grenfell tower
00:44:47 fire control switch at grenfell tower yes to my knowledge did you ever use any other key
00:44:51 other key no where did you obtain the key that you did use that would have been supplied by pdrs do you remember the manufacturer of the key it doesn't seem to say
00:45:03 key it doesn't seem to say to show it on as far as i can see on that image no and did you use the same key on both occasions is it just one that you carried around with it's one kid i had with me all the time did
00:45:15 one kid i had with me all the time did you ever have any issues in terms of compatibility of this key with the switch
00:45:23 what was your and i'm sorry we're going to such minutiae but this is very important
00:45:28 important what was your experience of actually inserting and turning the key was it easy experience was was there any you have to be gentle with them um you've got to make sure that when the key goes in that it actually drops
00:45:41 key goes in that it actually drops if it doesn't drop then you're going to cause damage so when you push it in you hear it click and you can feel it you actually feet when you're holding the end you can feel it drop and that's when you know that it's
00:45:52 and that's when you know that it's probably in the right position and that's what that roll pins for so that is generally in the correct position to be able to turn so you say the the pin is that the uh the bit of metal in the middle yes
00:46:04 uh the bit of metal in the middle yes and then does that stop you inserting the key too far yes you mentioned damage to switches and i just like to just talk about that did you ever observe any damage to this
00:46:15 did you ever observe any damage to this fire control switch not so grim filter if you had observed any damage to the fire control switch can you explain what actions you would have taken i would have removed the actual switch and repaired it would that
00:46:28 actual switch and repaired it would that have happened the same day immediately immediately and is that is that a difficult repair to do sometimes sometimes not it depends on how badly
00:46:37 how badly bent the the armature is so uh at paragraph 24h of your statement we don't need to go to you refer to the fact that you've come across fire switches in other properties
00:46:49 across fire switches in other properties which have been had damaged internal mechanisms yes can we please go to mr hawkins expert report rh0703
00:47:01 hawkins expert report rh0703 at page 213
00:47:09 and uh zooming in on on the second set of pictures at the bottom at the bottom there
00:47:13 there please
00:47:17 this is a the picture on the left uh the switch on the left at the bottom picture under bag of five five 557 is the one removed from the ground floor at grenfell tower
00:47:28 at grenfell tower uh the picture on the right and the same set of pictures is a an example switch so a new switch effectively yeah
00:47:37 we see then dr uh mr hawkins concludes that the side wards are banned uh the side wards those um the vertical metal plates yes
00:47:49 have you seen this kind of damage before yes
00:47:52 yes at grenfell tower or elsewhere elsewhere not at grenfell if the fire control switch had been damaged in this way when you tested it so if if these sides
00:48:03 when you tested it so if if these sides had been bent based on your experience would you have uh appreciate a difference in how it operated do you think yes i would have yeah well we wouldn't have been able to operate
00:48:14 have been able to operate um basically if i if i'd have operated it one way i wouldn't have been able to turn it back the other way to put the lifts back into normal operation
00:48:25 operation so um if
00:48:28 so um if if it was like that it wasn't like that it worked
00:48:32 it worked when i tested it uh pega 558 of mr hawkins report we see at the beginning uh on this page and i'll just figure it out the briefing note also notes as noted in the wsb report that
00:48:45 notes as noted in the wsb report that bjg74 so that's the switch from grenfell tower was jammed on examination appears that this jam was caused by a buildup of builders material next page please during examination the
00:48:57 next page please during examination the gem was cleared and the switch operated correctly it is not known how or why the jam occurred do you recall the fire control switch on the ground floor being jammed with builders material or debris
00:49:09 jammed with builders material or debris no if it had been do you think you could have identified this yes do you think you would likely have identified it yes and how what would you expect to
00:49:21 yes and how what would you expect to experience if if that had been the case really stiff to try and turn the key itself um if you'd been able to turn the key with
00:49:32 if you'd been able to turn the key with some difficulty but it still worked would you have what would you have done i would have took it off and had a look
00:49:40 would anything in that scenario have been noted in your reports no why not because i didn't have any problems with activating the switch
00:49:51 activating the switch i wonder if you could go back to the picture of the switches for a moment mr houston yes because i would just like mr wallace's help to understand exactly how this system works
00:50:03 this system works you could get to the previous page
00:50:10 please now we're looking at the switch from the back from the inside is that right yes and that large circular aperture at the top is that
00:50:22 circular aperture at the top is that where you put the key in that's where from the other side though yeah yeah you would be able to go in yes and then the end of the key would drop and it's got the same shape as the
00:50:35 and it's got the same shape as the aperture so that you can fit through there and nobody can just put anything in there to activate the switch so where is the switch as we look at this box
00:50:47 this box the two flappy bits on either side oh yes all right
00:50:57 and there's a there's a um it's like a rocker
00:51:01 rocker there's a space in the what are called the sidewalls there's the vertical yeah and
00:51:10 the the piece of the key that's dropped which is now hanging vertically yes can turn through that aperture yes to engage what the two
00:51:21 yes to engage what the two can you see the two bits sticking out either side one either side oh yeah sorry is to to rock the switch one way or the other and so you rock it
00:51:32 one way or the other and so you rock it one way it activates it activates it and you have to rock it the other way to deactivate it yes yes sir and the damage that we see on the
00:51:43 and the damage that we see on the left-hand one you say can be caused by not using the key correctly yes right um
00:51:56 and what the the key is has been pushed too
00:52:00 too far towards the back of the box or outside and so instead of the vertical piece passing through the aperture it's now engaging the
00:52:11 aperture it's now engaging the side ward is that right that's correct pushing it out of line yes see yeah
00:52:19 see yeah yes that's very helpful thank you very much thank you mr chairman that's very helpful
00:52:24 helpful so uh going back to my last question which i i think we might have been at cross purposes in a scenario where you had to take off the switch to clear it of debris and put it back on would you would you note that on the report that would be on the
00:52:35 on the report that would be on the report uh
00:52:36 report uh if it was a yeah if if that's what i found
00:52:39 found yes looking now at a an email following the fire tmo 100 23305
00:52:49 100 23305 please
00:52:55 and zooming in on the bottom half please this is an email from uh philip edwards who's a
00:53:02 who's a uh was your former colleague at pdrs was uh was he a supervisor or manager at pdrs
00:53:10 pdrs uh he was a manager manager yeah and this is to patrick baird whom you mentioned earlier um ipad confirmed today in previous email
00:53:20 email pat confirmed firemen switch at ground level
00:53:25 level to both units lifts were homing to ground only fiery call no central fire alarm
00:53:29 alarm so the recall would not ground automatically and then so that's in quotation marks and under that
00:53:36 that these switches are checked on the service visit mark wallace the regular service engineer since april 17 has confirmed both switches switched switches
00:53:46 switches uh were in a working capability of no faults
00:53:49 faults as per the about statement yeah i don't know where he means by both it was just the one switch did philip edwards discuss your maintenance of the switches
00:54:00 maintenance of the switches in june 2017 with you he asked me whether i'd check them yes and your response is that does that is that represented by with a paragraph i just read out yes that i actually
00:54:11 i just read out yes that i actually checked them yes
00:54:16 uh on on the issue of supervision uh just i'll ask you like to ask you a few questions about how you work with supervised internally you said paragraph 28 of your statement which we don't need to turn
00:54:27 which we don't need to turn up that you remember that mr edwards had accompanied you on one of your regular maintenance visits to grenfell tower before the fire i believe i met him there yeah
00:54:38 i believe i met him there yeah we've obtained the statement the inquiries obtained a statement from mr edwards
00:54:42 edwards which we can turn up at pdr 6054 page seven please
00:54:55 uh paragraph 32 to summarize and feel free to in fact please do take a minute to stream that back up
00:55:15 i may be mistaken it may have been dave watkins and met me okay
00:55:21 at paragraph 30 of your statement which we don't need to go to you describe having weekly meetings with patrick barrett from tmo and monthly meetings with dave watkins and philip edwards
00:55:31 edwards coming too yes yes if we go to one of the minutes or the notes of such a meeting which is m e t three zeros three seven six four one
00:55:46 please and that's titled um director's meeting task list
00:55:51 task list kensington and chelsea tmo you're not you weren't a director as i understand so you wouldn't be attending these meetings that right no but i'd like to ask you to the best of your ability to help us
00:56:02 of your ability to help us whether some of the issues described here sound familiar
00:56:07 the document suggests if we look at the text in blue next to number one pdrs response time to breakdown calls needs immediate improvement especially in the out of normal working
00:56:18 especially in the out of normal working hours periods as we are not always achieving the agreed for hours let alone the contractual two-hour requirement does that concern sound familiar that concerned me yeah
00:56:30 concerned me yeah as as the lead engineer we was trying to meet um
00:56:33 meet um our targets with our client and we were working really hard up there um to make sure this was happening but it was the out of hours that was letting us down
00:56:43 us down and in fairness the text highlighted in yellow just reading the first sentence mark wallace and anthony smart do not understand why we have a poor in-house response as they advise
00:56:54 a poor in-house response as they advise they're always inside two hours from time they receive the call so that refers to in-hours yes we believe it was a delay between the call being phoned in
00:57:06 call being phoned in to the office and then that being relayed to us a lot of the time they weren't actually phoning us directly they were sending it straight to the pda and if you were out a signal you weren't
00:57:18 and if you were out a signal you weren't getting it um so you wouldn't pick it up until you came back into signal again and the pda wasn't as reliable as the phone
00:57:27 phone the next uh point point to again blue grandfield tower is that fair to assume you weren't you didn't have a grand field tower on your route it must be grandfathers i believe that's yes experience an
00:57:39 i believe that's yes experience an extremely long wait for replacement parts is that a concern you're aware of um i believe that is relating to the landing door rollers that we discussed previously which were
00:57:50 we discussed previously which were completed before i actually took over the job okay overall in your two months doing that job were there issues between pdrs and tmo in terms of the standard of service
00:58:01 tmo in terms of the standard of service provided
00:58:02 provided too to the contract they were happy with what we were doing but they i believe it was more along the communication
00:58:13 communication between the two which i endeavored to resolve being the lead engineer
00:58:20 engineer very briefly what steps did pdrs and you in particular took take to resolve these issues made sure that um
00:58:28 that um the meetings were attended regularly um lots of communication between myself and patrick barrett where he wasn't happy i would address the issues that he was uh bring to me
00:58:40 the issues that he was uh bring to me i was also given a lot of support from my team
00:58:43 my team and the office itself from dave watkins and phil edwards thank you uh moving on to a different topic very briefly the you mentioned that some buildings have
00:58:54 you mentioned that some buildings have an automatic recall system as part of the uh
00:58:57 the uh the fire control system as as far as you were aware did that this building didn't have it when you were you did as far as i'm aware it didn't have it and the inquiry has heard
00:59:08 have it and the inquiry has heard evidence that there was an automatic fire ecosystem installed in around 2005. do you know if what happened to that system do you have any information i have no idea because i never see it
00:59:20 i have no idea because i never see it actually tested or worked so i can't comment on that so just some questions now about these we discussed in detail the maintenance visits now uh to get an idea
00:59:31 maintenance visits now uh to get an idea of the
00:59:32 of the problems that people call pdrs about we'll talk about some response service visits can you explain what a response visit is is it just someone reporting a problem
00:59:43 reporting a problem a response visit probably a call out for a problem with the lift that we had to go and have a look at it okay if we look at some examples pdr6045
00:59:55 okay if we look at some examples pdr6045 please at page 92.
01:00:04 this is a we see a different heading repair visit rather than maintenance it's dated the 16th of may 2017 relating to
01:00:13 to at the bottom the bottom field shows it's the same day again mr smart was this visit attended by yourself
01:00:21 yourself uh and entered by mrs on his pda i can't remember this
01:00:27 um if we go out up to the second to the first half of the uh the document if you read that text there does that um help your memory at all um
01:00:39 help your memory at all um i mean me and tony may have been together at that point um i don't remember this this this call out okay thank you
01:00:51 this this call out okay thank you we'll look at another report then this one is for this one this one was lift 91 we'll look at one for 90. which is it pdr six zeros 32 page two please
01:01:09 this relates to uh i call on the 5th of june 2017.
01:01:15 uh so is this does this one look familiar
01:01:18 familiar i believe so
01:01:21 yes and are you able to very briefly assist us
01:01:25 assist us what the problem was and how it was resolved
01:01:29 resolved uh i believe the car gate wasn't making which is your safety switch on your car doors
01:01:34 doors so if the doors come across and it doesn't mate correctly the lift will not engage and move away
01:01:43 and basically it probably needed adjustment it's like a slight adjustment would you have left the lift in service yes
01:01:53 yes and just one more document please which is it
01:01:58 the same same document page three please
01:02:10 thank you that's the 7th of june same lift number 90 again again does this one look familiar this does look familiar yes and can you again explain please what
01:02:22 and can you again explain please what the fault was and how it was resolved i believe the landing doors um had had a slight knock um i don't know how it happened but it was preventing the door from
01:02:33 but it was preventing the door from actually
01:02:35 actually coming across properly to engage the actual landing lock
01:02:39 and it was slightly out of alignment with the smoke
01:02:46 prevention device on the the back of the lift doors um there's a reference there to smoke baffle
01:02:53 baffle yeah it's just it's like a piece of metal and it's just to try and slow down the ingress of of smoke
01:03:01 smoke um into the shaft and it's got like a lip on it
01:03:04 lip on it and if the door doesn't line up with it correctly then it won't allow the door to
01:03:09 to to move freely so we had to adjust the landing door slightly to make help that engaged properly we've heard the term smoke fill it before is it the same same thing same device yeah
01:03:21 thing same device yeah people use different terminologies in that game unfortunately was it unusual that in june 2017 you had to attend
01:03:28 to attend two call outs for the same lift uh not really because i'd only done you know a couple of service visits anyway so
01:03:37 anyway so um i was getting around to to giving them more reliability anyway but um too cool that's isn't isn't rare
01:03:48 thank you mr mr chairman those are all the prepared questions i have right thank you well mr wallace when council
01:03:56 council says he's got to the end of his questions we always have a short break to enable him to check that he hasn't left anything out yes and also to allow other people who are following the proceedings from elsewhere to
01:04:07 elsewhere to suggest questions that they think perhaps we should put you so we're going to have a break for 10 minutes now until quarter past three yes and then uh when you come back we'll
01:04:18 yes and then uh when you come back we'll see if there are any more questions we need to ask you okay thank you um while you're out of the room please don't talk to anyone about your evidence i don't actually think you'll have much chance to but anyways don't um if you'd like to go to the usher and
01:04:30 um if you'd like to go to the usher and we'll see you in 10 minutes thank you very much
01:04:42 right this usually it's quarter past three then thank you mr
01:17:43 would you ask mr wallace to come back in please
01:17:56 right mr wallace well let's see if there's any more questions for you yes for sushi
01:17:59 for sushi just a few more questions of course um you referred to in your evidence to some works carried out in early april or the weekend with further works on the 9th of april and
01:18:10 further works on the 9th of april and you described them as actual replacement of the landing door rollers that's what i believe yes would these works have affected the operation of the fire control switch no it's mechanical it's the it's the
01:18:23 no it's mechanical it's the it's the actual lift doors themselves nothing to do with the switch could that have those works resulted in any uh debris coming into the switch not as far as i'm aware should that
01:18:34 not as far as i'm aware should that switch
01:18:34 switch have been cleaned checked and tested as part of concluding that work in april not as far as i'm aware now i wouldn't because i wouldn't have touched it i wouldn't have done anything to it and your evidence as i understand it is
01:18:45 and your evidence as i understand it is that you are you specifically recall testing the switch again in may yes yes thank you that's all the questions i have uh safe to say thank you very much for coming and assisting us today
01:18:57 for coming and assisting us today thank you very much well mr wallace i certainly should thank you on behalf of all the members of the panel for coming along to give us your evidence it hasn't taken all that long but it's i'm afraid
01:19:09 all that long but it's i'm afraid interfered with your day quite a bit and we're very grateful to you for coming along because you've been talking about um some really important things for us thank you very much thank you very much indeed for coming and now you're free to
01:19:21 indeed for coming and now you're free to go thank you very much thank you
01:19:40 is there anyone else not today mr chairman thank you no all right well in that case we'll uh we'll break at that point and we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning
01:19:51 resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning thank you thank you very much 10 o'clock tomorrow please