Architect Expert Evidence - Monday 2nd November 2020 (1/1)

Full transcript

00:00:13 good afternoon ladies and gentlemen and welcome to today's hearing at which we're going to hear evidence from mr paul hyatt the expert architect

00:00:23 architect instructed by the inquiry however before we do that in the light of the prime minister's announcement that the government intends to introduce a nationwide lockdown from thursday

00:00:36 a nationwide lockdown from thursday i think it might be helpful just to say a little bit about the inquiry's position

00:00:42 position the inquiry is a workplace which already has robust measures in place to enable us to conduct hearings safely and in accordance with government guidelines

00:00:53 guidelines that means we can continue to sit during the period of renewed restrictions of course depending on how things develop there may come a point at which the position

00:01:04 the position needs to be reconsidered but for now at any rate like the courts we shall continue to function in accordance with the thorough risk assessment process undertaken by the government

00:01:16 undertaken by the government property agency protecting the health and safety of all continues to be our highest priority so we may find it necessary to depart from our established

00:01:27 necessary to depart from our established procedures from time to time in order to keep the number of people in the building to a minimum we shall be asking those legal

00:01:38 we shall be asking those legal representatives who wish to make oral opening statements for module 2 to do that by video link finally may i say this i'm very grateful

00:01:49 finally may i say this i'm very grateful to all those particularly if i may say so to those behind the scenes whose support makes it possible for us to continue our hearings under what are undoubtedly difficult

00:02:00 under what are undoubtedly difficult circumstances yes mr millett mr chairman thank you very much

00:02:05 very much i now call mr paul hyatt

00:02:20 [Music]

00:02:34 sincerely and truly declare i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare

00:02:41 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth

00:02:53 truth thank you very much mr hurt now are you going to sit down to give uh most of your evidence uh yes sir if so please do so and make yourself comfortable thank you

00:03:11 yes mr hyatt thank you very much for uh coming to the inquiry and giving us your evidence and your presentation today and over the next day or so we're very grateful to you for your

00:03:22 we're very grateful to you for your expertise as an expert to the inquiry and for your assistance in that regard we're going to be examining your work as an expert as i say for the next two days

00:03:32 days during that time you'll obviously may have to move around the room a little bit in order to do your presentation may i ask you please to keep your voice up speak as and speak as clearly as possible so that

00:03:43 and speak as clearly as possible so that the transcriber can get down everything you're saying and also and i say this to all all the witnesses um don't nod or shake your head

00:03:51 your head say yes or no as the case may be i understand thank you very much um now we're going to take a break at a convenient moment this afternoon and that i think would be after your presentation that you're going to give

00:04:02 presentation that you're going to give us

00:04:03 us can i start though just by some formal matters

00:04:06 matters um is it right that by a way of letter of instruction of the 15th of october 2018

00:04:12 2018 which for the transcript is at p h y r 6 0 3 2 you were instructed by the inquiry yes that is correct and you were instructed to do the following

00:04:24 you were instructed to do the following i think

00:04:24 i think and just agree with me or qualify this if you can if or if you need to first to comment on the architect's initial terms of appointment for the refurbishment of grenfell tower between 2012 and 2016 correct

00:04:38 between 2012 and 2016 correct and also upon the services carried out by others that would normally fall within the scope of the architect's appointment correct and you were also i think asked to report on the development of

00:04:50 asked to report on the development of the design as prepared by the architect from concept through to final design commenting on the selection of materials and construction systems and their incorporation

00:05:01 incorporation into the design correct and were you also

00:05:04 also asked to advise on whether the documentation and advice given by the architect during the refurbishment works complied with the requirements of the building regulations and the relevant

00:05:16 building regulations and the relevant guidance

00:05:17 guidance yes i was and also with the standards of service to be reasonably expected of an architect in that regard and also i think

00:05:24 i think it's right that you were asked to advise uh on whether the as-built condition of the building complied with the documentation provided by the architect as far as i

00:05:35 provided by the architect as far as i could see it yes yes uh and uh finally in so far as there were any departures to the required standards uh that you identified were concerned to give your view as to whether those

00:05:46 to give your view as to whether those irregularities should have been identified by the architect under the scope of their appointment and in the context of the standards of service to be reasonably expected of an architect that is all correct

00:05:58 architect that is all correct thank you now i think it's right that that work was um instructed or the subject of instructions under what was referred to as the letter of instruction as part one of that letter correct yes and you produced a report

00:06:10 correct yes and you produced a report for phase two of this inquiry on part one

00:06:13 one in october 2019 and i think that comprises an executive summary and then parts one to six it does yes and in august 2020 am i

00:06:24 it does yes and in august 2020 am i right that you then produced an amended version of your report revision one which corrects typographical and minor errors

00:06:32 errors that is correct and that is accompanied by a cover sheet and an errata sheet listing

00:06:37 listing all the corrections made to your original report correct and now revision of your report and the errata sheet is at p h y r 6 6024

00:06:49 h y r 6 6024 through to phyr6037 and i'll just read those formally into the record can i ask you though to be shown

00:06:58 phyr6026 at page 10. here we see a signature next to the date 5th of october 2020. is that your signature that is my

00:07:09 is that your signature that is my signature and have you read this report recently

00:07:12 recently yes and subject to uh all of the matters that we're going to go through later can you confirm that it comprises your true and professional opinions

00:07:21 opinions it does now you also produced a shorter supplemental report in 20 in september 2020

00:07:28 2020 and this supplemental report provides additional commentary on the opinions set out in your original report in the light of the opening statements provided by various court participants to the inquiry i think that's right isn't it

00:07:40 inquiry i think that's right isn't it that is correct and it contains a cover sheet in parts one to four and i'll just read those in they are at p h y s six zeros one to p h y s six zeros five

00:07:54 uh and if we could look at p h y s six zeros

00:07:58 zeros one please of page nine we can see that uh here again is a a signature

00:08:04 signature uh again next to the date of the fifth of october 2020. is that your signature that is so just to be clear your report and your supplemental report were actually signed

00:08:15 supplemental report were actually signed by you on the same day yes yes now throughout your um examination i'm going to refer to revision one uh of your report as your report and

00:08:26 uh of your report as your report and your supplemental report as your supplemental report just so that we've got the line i understand um are the factual matters set out in your report and supplemental report true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes and does this supplemental

00:08:38 belief yes and does this supplemental report

00:08:39 report accurately set out your true and professional opinions on the matters you were asked to consider it does now you were also asked i think by the inquiry to make certain recommendations about what if any changes you would advise should be made

00:08:52 changes you would advise should be made to the relevant legislation uh regulations guidance uh and industry practices

00:08:57 practices to address any shortcomings that you may have found as a result of your work as an expert that is in the first letter of instruction yes and that work i think was instructed under what's referred to in that letter of instruction as part two is that right

00:09:08 of instruction as part two is that right correct

00:09:09 correct now your work under part two will be presented in a further report to the inquiry at a later date i think won't it correct yes and am i right in thinking that you haven't yet completed your work on part two that is correct so to be clear we're

00:09:21 that is correct so to be clear we're only going to be examining the work you've done so far under part one of your of your instructor that is my understanding yes now in section 1.1 and in appendix 4 in detail of your report

00:09:33 in detail of your report you've outlined your background and your experience relevant to matters in this inquiry haven't you yes yes yes now um we don't need to go through all of that because there's a lot there and people can read it but

00:09:44 lot there and people can read it but just if

00:09:45 just if we can summarize that together um i think it's right that you've got over 40 years of post-qualification experience as an architect practicing in in england and internationally

00:09:56 internationally i think i registered in uh 1979 somewhere in there so that'd be about right yes and is it right that between 2004 and 2020 you were a principal at hks

00:10:07 and 2020 you were a principal at hks architects that is correct and is it is it the case that hks architecture is an architectural practice operating out of offices in london and internationally and provides a broad range of

00:10:18 and provides a broad range of architectural services across a wide variety of building sectors that is correct and you'll remember i think of

00:10:25 think of the royal institute of british architects until the office of president of the riba from september 2000

00:10:32 2000 until august 2002 correct and you're retired i think from hks already and that happened in june this year i think that's correct yes yes and you now run a consultancy advising

00:10:43 and you now run a consultancy advising on architectural services i believe correct

00:10:46 correct now before you were the riba uh president you are i think an riba council member responsible for architectural education for some four years or so yes the title was vice president

00:10:59 yes the title was vice president education right and i and were you an external examiner at various universities that is a separate uh uh aspect as vice president of education i was

00:11:10 as vice president of education i was involved in validation visits to schools of architecture in the uk and around the world but quite separately from that i have been appointed as an external examiner for parts one two and three

00:11:21 two and three at various schools of architecture right and

00:11:24 and did you report to the burton review of architectural education i did indeed and then act later on as a deputy chair to the stansfield smith review of architectural education that is correct and i think i'm right in saying you're

00:11:36 and i think i'm right in saying you're also an honorary fellow of the american institute of architecture the royal society of architects in wales and the chartered association of building engineers correct

00:11:46 correct now before i ask you any detailed questions

00:11:49 questions you've prepared a presentation i think addressing the principal features of the as built design of the external facade of grenfell tower and the features of your indicative

00:12:00 and the features of your indicative approach to the design of that facade as set out in section three of your report that is correct now your presentation is going to be given by a reference to a scale model of the as built condition of a typical

00:12:12 of the as built condition of a typical bay of the refurbished tower and that model has been built by uh piper's model makers isn't it yes and uh mr dominic heyhurst who assisted the crew in the creation of

00:12:23 who assisted the crew in the creation of that model is here to assist you in this presentation as is um philippe de paola of rts yes he led a very good team right now just to be clear so that everybody understands where this comes

00:12:34 everybody understands where this comes from

00:12:35 from um it's right i think just confirm for me that the drawings that were provided to piper's model makers who then made the model

00:12:42 the model um and your instructions to the model makers have been disclosed and for the transcript those documents and instructions are at p h y six zeros one

00:12:54 h y six zeros one to p h y six zero six now before mr h before you start your presentation can we please have up p h y six zeros seven

00:13:06 p h y six zeros seven this is a diagram that you have produced entitled uh model location key is that right correct uh and i understand that you want to make

00:13:17 understand that you want to make reference to that during your presentation uh yes that's the that's the right document is it that is correct very good okay well mr pirate i'm going to hand over to you now uh in order for you to do your

00:13:29 uh in order for you to do your presentation uh i'm going to stay as quiet as i can but if there are questions i have for you during the course of your presentation i'll i'll ask those questions but i don't want to interrupt your flow

00:13:40 your flow well mr smith i will anticipate that but if anything is unclear during the presentation um please ask me to go back and explain it again

00:13:48 it again because model is quite complicated very well i will so without further ado mr height i hand the floor to you thank you thank you

00:13:59 well i can see on the screen in front of me the model which is behind me and i'm going to explain this model uh by addressing the screen

00:14:07 screen um throughout that way i'm not trying to deal with

00:14:11 deal with something and point to something with my back to the camera and dominic is going to use a pointer to point to the parts of the model which i want to illustrate at any particular moment and philippe has got a a

00:14:24 moment and philippe has got a a rather marvellous camera which can take us into a

00:14:27 us into a sort of very close up view very detailed parts of the model when we need to do that

00:14:35 could i ask first of all no before i go to the drawing i'll just explain a few points for the model on the right hand

00:14:43 hand side um the view shows the building with cladding on it a white panel and a window

00:14:54 window perhaps you could point to that dominic so there's the white panel that's um one of the um

00:15:01 of the um infield panels the window is next to it and then above it we've got part of a spandel panel or two parts of spandel panels i say part because if you drop your pointer

00:15:12 drop your pointer uh dominic to the spindle panel below you will see two full-size spandel panels

00:15:20 panels and then you needn't point to it it's evident from the camera view on the right hand side there's

00:15:27 there's cladding over the column that all represents the 2012 to 2016 works as was installed on the building and as

00:15:39 as was installed on the building and as is known as the over cladding work and the way we assembled that was to use drawings prepared by studio e the drawings prepared by

00:15:50 drawings prepared by harley to validate information that we gleaned from those two information streams to produce a computer a model of the

00:16:02 to produce a computer a model of the building and then to pass it to pipers to put it into production we also designed the model uh in order to illustrate the narrative uh to help me by being available to me as a tool to

00:16:14 by being available to me as a tool to illustrate the narrative which i will now

00:16:16 now um offer to the inquiry or present to the inquiry um the middle panel there um or the middle section of the model you can see a turquoise uh line to the

00:16:28 you can see a turquoise uh line to the top could you point to that please dominic

00:16:30 dominic turquoise line two vertical turquoise lines uh

00:16:33 lines uh below it and then there's um a middle infill panel there and then could you point to the two window openings and i say opening windows because the pointer will go right through them

00:16:44 pointer will go right through them they are holes where the windows would be

00:16:47 be um i haven't put them in there but otherwise that part of the model uh which is just where didn't denoted by the turquoise is what i call the center bay and that's a part of

00:16:58 a part of um the uh um building that lies between the two columns i'll define those columns in a moment for you on the um on the plan to the left uh dominic

00:17:10 on the plan to the left uh dominic perhaps you would just mark the highlighted yellow there and it's that area in the horizontal yellow which defines the zone which i have called the indicative approach

00:17:23 i have called the indicative approach and

00:17:23 and um that is um a particular part of the model which we'll deal with in detail later on what you see in the form of the um

00:17:32 um generally sort of stony colored their facade is the original concrete external facade of the building

00:17:43 concrete external facade of the building as would have been seen before any of the work was done now you'll also see there um two four six eight ten little brass

00:17:55 six eight ten little brass um pins sticking out of the concrete they weren't in the original building and they are model makers devices for hanging what we're going to show uh later on so if you would i'd ask the

00:18:06 uh later on so if you would i'd ask the um

00:18:07 um inquiry to uh ignore those um could you please now point to the vertical slot between the spindle panel and the column

00:18:19 and the column and to take the pointer from the top to the very bottom please imagine that the yellow is not there that slot existed in the original building and is one of a better term it's an

00:18:30 one of a better term it's an architectural device to allow the columns to be expressed and readily seen and understood to the left of the column that same column please point to the top and the

00:18:41 column please point to the top and the bottom parts of the spindle to the left of it

00:18:44 of it no no over the other way around the column

00:18:47 column that's it that's there we are that spindle panel there and the one below uh that's part of the adjoining flat we'll look at that on the plan in the moment in a moment and

00:18:58 the plan in the moment in a moment and that's part of the adjoining one bedroom flat this is um showing the facade east facade to a two-bedroom flat

00:19:07 flat could you now run the pointer down the vertical

00:19:11 vertical chases i've called them but um tracks might be an easier term down the column they were on the original building and they are again an architectural expression

00:19:23 expression they become very important uh later on in this

00:19:27 in this narrative and then there's a horizontal track there as well which you can show that's it the yellow pieces that are in those tracks or slots um

00:19:38 that are in those tracks or slots um they will be featuring later because they're part of the indicative scheme they were not on the original model and they i will explain why they're there later on but i wish at the moment to move to the

00:19:50 but i wish at the moment to move to the right hand part of the model to explain that in more detail but before i do could you please point to the dotted line

00:20:00 line that has been painted on there that dotted line represents the floor level of the flat above so the concrete floor which divides

00:20:15 so the concrete floor which divides this flat from the flat above spans or stretches from the turquoise line there

00:20:22 there point to that please dominate from there to the dotted line if you can imagine that that's a concrete floor that runs the whole way along

00:20:29 along the floor we haven't drawn it on the floor below but the same arrangement would exist there and that's important because that concrete floor represents the top and the bottom compartment

00:20:41 and the bottom compartment of that flat behind the column could you point to the left hand column please um dominic and uh if you can um

00:20:52 dominic and uh if you can um uh step up onto tiptoes and point to the wall that's going away we can see it on the

00:20:56 the screen that wall divides the corner flat um which is shown here the two bedroom flat from the adjoining flat and that is a compartment

00:21:07 flat and that is a compartment wall which comes into the back of the column so that column has a compartment wall with a command floor

00:21:13 floor below about floor above there's no compartmentation on the right hand column because it is a corner column right before we move on with the model um i think now

00:21:24 um i think now i'd ask for the drawing to be put up on the screen and this um if you don't mind i'll pour a glass of water as well this will help us to orientate ourselves

00:21:36 this will help us to orientate ourselves on the building um if you don't mind i won't go into great detail about the way the building's arranged i'm sure you'll have questions

00:21:43 questions that are relevant to me later on in that but suffice it to say this is the east elevation there are two intermediate columns you can see on that elevation and two corner columns

00:21:55 elevation and two corner columns between each of the columns is a flat so on the right hand side you can see a little box that has been drawn about at level four and that little black box

00:22:06 black box um you can see on the plan to the right hand side

00:22:09 hand side and that shows the part of the building that is being illustrated by the model

00:22:18 so there we have a two bedroom flat on that

00:22:21 that corner we have a two bedroom flat on the other side of the elevation and then in the middle between the two central columns is the one bedroom flat and on the plan um

00:22:32 flat and on the plan um it will be evident that uh there's a series of numbers flat five six a little bit out of focus but one two three four five six and you can see there that um the

00:22:43 and you can see there that um the flats five six um two and three flats five six two and three are

00:22:49 are two bedroom corner flats and flats four and um one are one-bedroomed um uh intermediate flats i've called them

00:23:00 them and then you can see the staircase and the pair of lifts there um the corn the corner flats are replicated up the building so the flat above flat six is identical and

00:23:11 flat above flat six is identical and below

00:23:11 below likewise and the other side flat five is the same as flat six but it's what we call handed it's a mirror image and in the bottom of flat six or the lower part of the

00:23:22 lower part of the drawing there you can see the kitchen area

00:23:25 area and the words flat and six are written onto the

00:23:29 onto the what is the living room area and to the left of the two bedrooms to that flat in the box that has been

00:23:35 has been drawn there there are two columns there is a corner column and there is an intermediate column the corner columns were larger than the intermediate columns and it can be seen from that plan that

00:23:47 and it can be seen from that plan that we have three intermediate columns on the north elevation three on the south two on the east and two on the west they're all identical in size i do apologize am i going too fast for the

00:23:58 fast for the stomatographer nope um the four corner columns larger than the intermediate ones they are also identical each with the other

00:24:08 other and so we're going to be concentrating for the

00:24:12 for the next um

00:24:15 part of this presentation uh on the model that represents the area of the building that is within that box and before you take it off i'd just like to ask the inquiry to remember that when i

00:24:26 ask the inquiry to remember that when i refer to

00:24:27 refer to column a5 i'm talking about the corner column at the top and a and b5 i'm talking about the intermediate column beneath it both part of flat six and the

00:24:39 beneath it both part of flat six and the live's designations have come from dr lane's report she very helpfully set out a grid

00:24:44 a grid i don't know where she got it from but um she said at the grid so if you look at the top of that drawing starting at flat five corner column you've got a1 then a2 a3 a4 a5 and then at the bottom

00:24:56 then a2 a3 a4 a5 and then at the bottom uh next next down sorry you've got b um 1 through to b5 c1 through to c5 and d 1 2 3 4 and 5. that just helps us orientate ourselves

00:25:07 orientate ourselves always as we go and when i refer to a5 or b5 you'll know exactly where i am could we now return the camera to the model

00:25:19 model um at this stage um before we look at the um at the right hand part of the model i'd just like to ask dominic to please um

00:25:31 to ask dominic to please um touch the infill panel in the scent in under the turquoise um dominic if you would

00:25:38 would that is um a uh part of the ribbon window system which had

00:25:44 had an uh a an in fill panel installed externally the part that you see there which is uh solid is a lightweight

00:25:55 which is uh solid is a lightweight form of a pre pre-formed concrete panel which was brought to the building and connected to the top of the spandel panel and bolted to the um concrete floor above it so that

00:26:08 um concrete floor above it so that formed the inside wall to the building for one of a better tournament between there and the outer part there was a a cavity um now again before we move on to the model um

00:26:20 model um could you point to the part of the window that is to the right-hand side uh closest to to you dominic on the adjoining flat that's it

00:26:31 that's it that is that window is um has been constructed by the model maker as

00:26:38 as a replica of the original window in the building

00:26:42 building and you will see that the windowsill there could you point to the windowsill it sits at the top of the spandle panel which is an upstanding piece of concrete poured in situ it sits at the top there at the back of the

00:26:54 sits at the top there at the back of the champer so the face of the concrete panel comes up and it chamfers it tilts back in again and meets the window and this is going to be very important to this presentation so the original windows were set

00:27:05 were set back um and as we know from previous evidence

00:27:09 evidence um the windows that were installed as part of the 20 20 12 16 work was set forward of that position

00:27:17 position underneath a spandel panel you can see um a combination of windows and infill panels and that would be to the

00:27:27 the to the flats below i think that's all i need to say about that part of the model now

00:27:33 now and i'd like to uh invite um the um philippe um to lead the camera team to uh bring in another camera angle which i think is the camera up there

00:27:45 the camera up there and that will look at the edge of the new addition to the building i'll just wait for that to come up on the screen

00:27:56 yes can we change the camera angle um no it'll be the other way we want the other camera

00:28:09 right if we could done if you could if the camera could follow the pointer and if you could first of all

00:28:17 all cast the pointer slowly from the top to the bottom but let me speak and follow the narration please at the very top there we've got part of the uh the turquoise which is part of the

00:28:28 the um rs-5000 insulation that's adhered to the concrete panel or fixed to the concrete panel i should say above the horizontal cavity barrier the yellow part

00:28:39 yellow part next down the yellow part is the edge of the cavity barrier itself you can't see it here because of the um the black

00:28:49 the black shadow line there but the face of that the outside face of that is actually black

00:28:53 black and it's made of an inchimescent strip the purpose of which is to expand uh if it's subjected to heat

00:29:00 heat and in expanding it fills the gap up to the back of the cassette it was important that the horizontal cavity barriers did not touch the back of the cassettes because a vengeful system does have water

00:29:12 a vengeful system does have water penetrating it and it's important to let the water drain through the building if you could move on down we've got another piece of turquoise there that piece of turquoise again fixed to

00:29:23 that piece of turquoise again fixed to the building and we're going to need to go very carefully now could you please point out the um the angle shelf that was

00:29:35 angle shelf that was fixed to the top of the ribbon window system the point is at the top of it now so there's a an aluminium shelf angle that's bolted to the

00:29:46 to the structure and then a horizontal part of it comes out at the base just at the window top the pointer is on it now so that comes out there

00:29:54 out there could you now go down to the one below on the spandel panel and show that one there's another one down here and could you start at the bottom of it and then take the camera up there it is and that

00:30:05 take the camera up there it is and that comes

00:30:05 comes out goes up to the top and then that comes out horizontally and then down to the very bottom you can show the next one

00:30:15 and if you hold the camera just there you can see a replication of what i was describing at the top which is the turquoise edge of the rs 5000 insulation

00:30:28 5000 insulation and the cavity barrier at the lower level

00:30:32 level the

00:30:35 way in which the cladding was fixed was um by hanging it and it literally does hang it

00:30:42 hang it it's not bolted it hangs over um toggles that run between the channels that are affixed to the brackets

00:30:53 brackets you can see that arrangement there now we thought that this was all getting a little bit difficult to show on camera like this so i'm now going to ask dominic to assemble the building

00:31:04 to assemble the building as per the 2012 works and before us and i will narrate that process so

00:31:15 that process so i know evidence given to this inquiry um by the um cladding subcontractors subcontractors describes the order in which this work was done

00:31:26 was done and i think this is um what this is the basis one which we've uh created this model so the first uh installation was the shelf angles could you fix those please dominic

00:31:40 could you fix those please dominic so there's the shelf angle going across the top that's a continuation of what dominic was pointing out with the pointer

00:31:47 pointer another one under the window you'll see that that's uh inverted the other way actually yep you added upside down as well um so

00:31:58 you added upside down as well um so the uh that's bolted to the spindle wall and the shelf comes out uh um horizontally above the chamfer line

00:32:09 right there we go and there's the bottom one

00:32:12 one so first works done between the columns was to put the three shelf angles in place the um next uh item of work um

00:32:24 uh item of work um was um to put in the cleats and these are small pieces which are bolted but before you actually put that on dominique i'll just say at this point we

00:32:37 dominique i'll just say at this point we think the windows were installed as well so the flats remained very tight and comfortable so in between the top and the middle um angle

00:32:46 angle um shelf angle the windows would have been installed but i'll leave that aside we haven't constructed that bit for this we'll show that later now could you put the cleats in

00:32:59 so these were bolted to the aluminium angles it's a different type of cleat to the top and the bottom could you hold one of those just around for the camera so that they can see it

00:33:11 for the camera so that they can see it the shape of it there it is and turn it right there it is so that would have been fabricated as a special means it's just for this building

00:33:19 building and that went on there and there and with those made um the framing is taking shape now

00:33:31 framing is taking shape now in architects terms and structural engineers terms all of the loads have to be taken back into the structure and safely down through the structure into the

00:33:42 through the structure into the foundations so anything that's going to be hung on this building has to be hung securely onto the original structure and the shelf angles the three of them that i've shown you and those cleats transfer the load and

00:33:55 and those cleats transfer the load and the weight of the cladding back onto the building the next

00:33:59 the next installation was the cavity barriers and we will put them in here in the position that they were installed

00:34:10 now it is important to note that on the studio e drawings these cavity barriers at the head of the windows

00:34:19 windows were uh in line with the top of the window

00:34:22 window but the harley drawings showed them at this different position and when dominique puts this um the two of them are there um you can see from the

00:34:32 from the top now the dotted line which shows the floor slab the top of the floor slab forming the compartment over the cavity barrier at the upper part

00:34:46 the cavity barrier at the upper part was slightly above that horizontal dotted line and the cavity barriers should have been within the floor thickness as i've said in my report not a lot turns on that but nevertheless

00:34:57 turns on that but nevertheless um it is a point to note could you now point

00:35:00 point please dominate to the slots that have been cut out of the lower cavity barrier you'll see here that the um the fixers cut through the intumescent

00:35:12 cut through the intumescent understandably and they cut back into the cavity barriers and created slots ready for the vertical channels to be installed now i haven't got vertical channels for

00:35:24 now i haven't got vertical channels for the columns here or going all the way at the building i'm just going to show it in that area under that window but um the um

00:35:35 the assembly involved putting in those vertical channels but before they did that

00:35:40 that they installed the insulation so could you now put the insulation in place [Music]

00:35:49 [Music] we don't quite know what sizes of insulation panels were cut it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this they would have cut them to suit the the

00:36:00 they would have cut them to suit the the the work

00:36:02 the work pattern but the point was they had to maintain a continuity of insulation all the way across so here we have the celotex

00:36:11 celotex insulation been installed and then the next three smaller pieces go under the

00:36:30 [Music]

00:36:34 had a little bit of trouble getting those in before but they've all gone in okay today there we are and if you can imagine that being a similar situation above the window

00:36:43 window and on up through the building and between all the columns all the way around so

00:36:47 around so there it is um the next thing that was done uh in the operation that was carried out for the two 12 16 works was to install the vertical channels

00:36:59 was to install the vertical channels so those cleats had to be in the right position the reason the cleats are set out like this is to get the channels well forward of the building facade so

00:37:10 well forward of the building facade so that the insulation could go behind so could you put the channels on no

00:37:20 please

00:37:26 [Music] so there we have it and i would ask the

00:37:37 so there we have it and i would ask the inquiry

00:37:38 inquiry to just simply take that as an indication of what is underneath that uh those silv

00:37:48 acm panels on the right hand side that's the assembly that then receives the panels

00:37:53 panels uh hooked on and could you now hold in the direction of the camera uh we didn't rehearse this bit dominique but could you just hold one of those panel's edge on so that the inquiry can see the

00:38:07 so that the inquiry can see the form at the edge of the cassette that would allow them to be hooked on

00:38:15 there we are so this and it's good to turn that right the way around you can see it's got a raking shelf at the top that's

00:38:21 that's to stop birds landing and staying sitting on it it's got edges and it's got a base and at the very base if you can just hold it there you can just can you lift it up a fraction and then turn it

00:38:33 fraction and then turn it because the turquoise behind it just shows it right the other way just spin it the other way that's it perfect and then get it level again turn it to level yes you can just see that there's a

00:38:44 yes you can just see that there's a shelf at the bottom um in other words the the bottom of the panels forms a tray which is also quite important um so that was formed at one sheet of aluminium

00:38:55 was formed at one sheet of aluminium acm which was cut and folded uh in that fashion so please take off now the other three panels there

00:39:21 and um you can see that has exposed the arrangements that i had just previously described albeit in this instance now with the infill panel the front face of the infill panel

00:39:32 panel the front face of the infill panel in position the left hand info panel shows the backing wall the white on the right could you point to the white one please dominic the white on the right uh is the

00:39:44 the white on the right uh is the aluminium

00:39:45 aluminium uh infill panel and then point to the window further across there's a complete window which forms the corner window in the lounge now i'd like you to take the pointer

00:39:56 now i'd like you to take the pointer domination and run it along the top of the window uh system there that area there is when the dr lane has pointed out

00:40:07 pointed out as being so important in relation to closing

00:40:11 closing the edge of the window openings and adb 2 calls for the edge so could you run it along the bottom of the window as well please

00:40:20 please and you can see here that at the bottom of the window and at the top of the window

00:40:24 window we have no cavity barriers

00:40:30 we know all this of course from the drawings that have been presented in the past but this is a three-dimensional representation of it now could you um before we take the corner

00:40:39 corner uh cladding off i'm going to get some steps and uh we have a close-up camera which will enable us to um show what's happening

00:40:49 happening on the corner but before we do that i i have um

00:40:53 have um a little tiny uh model here which has been

00:40:56 been um prepared to explain what is going to be shown by the camera on the corner may i

00:41:02 i use this right um i'll wait till it comes

00:41:06 comes up here we are you'll see on the screen myself now this represents

00:41:13 the corner condition uh or the nose is a better description on each of the intermediate columns this is one of the intermediate columns the corner columns to the building had

00:41:25 the corner columns to the building had two very similar arrangements to this but this is an intermediate column and what you can see here is um the outer line there represents

00:41:36 um the outer line there represents the aluminium cladding panel which is hung by hooks and here is the other one so that's one panel and then all of that is another panel and they

00:41:50 all of that is another panel and they were mounted onto this vertical channel so this is like the channels you saw going up and down the building and i've called this uh a channel there's the channel

00:42:02 there's the channel structural channel that is fixed by a leg

00:42:06 leg coming off the back of it and then it's not shown by this model but via brackets which is that one and that one and that one they fix back onto the column itself so if you'll

00:42:16 if you'll allow some artistic license for that there's a column then leave here but this i've called these wings to the channel um

00:42:27 wings to the channel um they go all the way at the building and these would have been very long pieces i don't know how long two meters three meters

00:42:32 meters um maybe longer they would have gone up the building bolted to the concrete column by via this structure here and this is all very important

00:42:43 here and this is all very important because um i'm going to take this face slowly because it's quite difficult to grasp these lines here these two lines here represent the bottom upturned edge of

00:42:56 represent the bottom upturned edge of the cladding cassette panel or the cassette so if you uh remember i showed you when dominic turned one of those panels around that the bottom of the tray the cassette um

00:43:10 bottom of the tray the cassette um turned up so here's the front face of the cassette it's got a bottom because it bends down underneath and then it turns up for just 20 millimeters or so and that um is fixed to the

00:43:23 and that um is fixed to the wing of the um of the channel that itself fixed to the building and carries the load down

00:43:31 along here backing up to the concrete build of the building

00:43:38 building was the cavity barrier itself and the space

00:43:42 space between um there and there was the zone into which the intumescent strip is to expand in conditions of fire so that would have

00:43:53 in conditions of fire so that would have inhibited the passage of fire vertically up the

00:43:56 up the column the yellow here

00:44:02 reveals that part of the column which was not protected by the cavity barriers the cavity barriers were actually cut back at about that line there

00:44:14 back at about that line there and that line there but behind the building so be behind this wing so there's um cavity barrier coming up along here and here and here

00:44:27 along here and here and here and back down there and when it's uh there's fire conditions it can expand out there and it can expand out here but there is no cavity barrier and no

00:44:38 but there is no cavity barrier and no potential for any intermediate strip to expand out into any of the yellow the outside of the building

00:44:44 building under the building regulations would be defined as the aluminium cassette line and so as you can see and this is true to

00:44:55 so as you can see and this is true to scale this is the exact size that is the vertical um chimney for want of a better term uh that exists on the corner of the

00:45:06 uh that exists on the corner of the building and there are two on uh sorry on the nose of the columns and there are two of those on every corner column

00:45:12 column and one of those on energy intermediate column is that clear yes thank you very much okay so could we now go back to the model and i'm going to ask um philippe if he

00:45:24 and i'm going to ask um philippe if he can

00:45:27 get into a position well above the model on his steps and hold the camera the mobile camera that this team have with it facing

00:45:38 that this team have with it facing downwards

00:45:39 downwards and i will be able to show you through that camera view what i've just described you may need to get it a little higher than that let's see i'll wait for it to switch the picture

00:45:52 switch the picture there we go now [Music]

00:45:57 [Music] dominique could you point to please and first of all point uh take us through the external line of the cladding i think it'll be visible for everybody to see but i'd like you to show the right hand

00:46:10 i'd like you to show the right hand piece of cladding um could you bring it down into the picture again and show where it is hooked onto the channel it's in there it is so you can see the the uh

00:46:21 in there it is so you can see the the uh the edge of that particular cassette um oh it's got a little arm on it and it hooks over the pin that goes through the channel and it's different to the one on the

00:46:34 and it's different to the one on the left hand side could you delineate the left hand

00:46:37 left hand of those cassettes there it is and bring the pointer around the nose of it and then back up its return arm and you can see that it's got a little leg that closes the gap is that all

00:46:50 leg that closes the gap is that all clear

00:46:51 clear okay and then on that picture you can see the

00:46:55 see the turquoise is the insulation coming up the wall and the yellow there is the cavity

00:47:01 cavity barrier coming in behind the wing could you point to the wing please dominic the cavity barry is coming in behind the wing and now i'd like to withdraw from that picture

00:47:14 like to withdraw from that picture and ask dominic to put the pointer down the right

00:47:18 the right hand

00:47:22 part now if we can go now to the other camera

00:47:27 camera and show that you can see that goes all the way down there we are so there is the hole going through the building um could you lift that out now and remove the

00:47:38 the left hand of those cassettes and then place that pointer in the channel that forms what i've described as the chimney

00:47:52 forms what i've described as the chimney so that and you can take it right down to the bottom there was not a closer to that that didn't close from the bottom to the top of the building the drawings

00:48:03 building the drawings studio drawings show no closure at the bottom and no closure at the top and no intermediate closure um so before we

00:48:14 so before we go on um i'd like you now to take off the right hand part of that cladding please

00:48:24 i want to just explain that we had uh i think um there were some difficulties in assembling all of this

00:48:35 assembling all of this and i'm going to ask dominic if he can point to the nosings there are two nosings on this particular uh corner column one there and the next

00:48:46 uh corner column one there and the next one

00:48:46 one there and on the actual nose in each case

00:48:49 case there is the channel with the wing that i described and you can see the toggles going through it onto which the cladding is hung

00:48:57 hung could you show not on that one on the other one that's it it's the toggles that's where the cladding hangs and the next one and the next one down down and down so there is the channel that goes up the nose

00:49:08 nose and could we get the camera the the mobile camera to go around and get to the right angle to show that the there's two channels on that corner

00:49:21 it's could you bring the camera around to show that there we are there we are perfect thank you and what actually happened was that they found i think difficulties in assembling this arrangement on the corner so these cleats the silver

00:49:34 on the corner so these cleats the silver bit

00:49:34 bit that you can see right in the middle i don't need that to be pointed there it is

00:49:37 is there it is those cleats were bolted to the vertical channel on the nose which in turn was bolted back to the column and these new channels were added in

00:49:49 and these new channels were added in order to hang the cladding panel on it because they found they couldn't get the cladding panels to wrap around the edge i won't go into that in too much detail because it's not particularly important what is important is it just

00:50:00 what is important is it just demonstrates the difficulty of bringing the cavity barrier around the front face of behind the column the channel to the right and in front of the one to the left it's very very difficult

00:50:12 left it's very very difficult um so there we are um now could we um now take um a torch at the bottom and could uh philippe get to the very top

00:50:23 philippe get to the very top of of the stepladder again and look down the gap and could you re-hang the cladding panel dominique

00:50:35 and we want a torch to shine straight up through it i have one here if you want one or if anybody else has a switched off mobile phone you can

00:50:46 lie on the beneath it has anybody got one or should i turn this one on

00:50:53 mine is switched off so it'll take a few seconds to fire up if anybody's got to could we switch the torch on

00:51:11 yeah here we have a torch coming

00:51:16 dominic's got gloves on so he can take that torch from you don't nick could you take the torch with your gloves oh you got one okay and i think that

00:51:27 oh you got one okay and i think that um you can look down here and we should be able to see this light right through the bottom coming all the way up

00:51:37 way up there we are so there is the gap that runs all the way up the building there's three of those

00:51:44 and if i can ask the camera to switch back to me now i will show again

00:51:53 one last time [Music]

00:51:57 [Music] so true to scale the model is one fifth scale but

00:52:00 scale but true to scale um we have the the torch was shining up one of these

00:52:07 these so one two three four five there's a so it's a zigzaggy maze almost right um could we go back to the model

00:52:18 right um could we go back to the model now please [Music]

00:52:26 and i'm going to ask you to we won't be taking cladding off and on too often but we needed to for this bit could you take the vertical cladding panel off

00:52:34 panel off joining the window now that's the only one you need to remove

00:52:41 thank you very much

00:52:44 and uh i'm now going to ask dominic to go to the back of the model so at this point we're going to remove the screens so that we can

00:52:57 remove the screens so that we can actually see the model from the other side with the mobile camera and with a camera now i think if it's acceptable to the inquiry we'll put the screens on the

00:53:09 inquiry we'll put the screens on the front of the model because it will help the view from the other side [Music]

00:53:18 [Music] and could we switch the other camera on gives us a view of the back of it

00:53:30 [Music] could you move the other screen as well

00:53:42 could you move the other screen as well okay so here we are now looking at it and you to orientate you know um column a5 is now on the left of the

00:53:53 column a5 is now on the left of the picture because we're on the other side we're looking at it from inside the flat so here's column a5 on the left could you point to that please

00:54:08 no that's b5 a5 is the other one there's the column right on the corner that's it so there's column a5 b5 is the one you're pointing to first and could you point to the um concrete

00:54:21 and could you point to the um concrete floor above the flat you can see there there's that's there and the concrete floor of the flat there we are and then if you come across to the

00:54:28 the um what will be your left you can see the original window now sat on no note the original window that's it sat on its original windowsill

00:54:40 that's it sat on its original windowsill uh on the concrete spandel you can just see the chamfer in front of it so you see it set well back um and i now want you please to show where the

00:54:51 please to show where the sliding partition between the kitchen and the living room was there we are that's and on the right is a kitchen could you put the fridge into position

00:55:03 so at the end of the um run the kitchen no

00:55:06 no other side in the kitchen no no there we are um up against the wall on the right no not on that's it right back against that compartment wall

00:55:17 compartment wall turn it round that's correct that's perfect thank you so there is the fridge uh in the position that we believe it was in from photographs at the time of the fire

00:55:30 from photographs at the time of the fire and

00:55:30 and under the windows there is um you can see the white under the three windows there that um was um insulation very thin insulation that was on the inside of the solid concrete

00:55:42 on the inside of the solid concrete walls

00:55:43 walls and they're similar to that on the soffit ceiling you can just see it to the left

00:55:49 the left if you could point to it dominic it's a very left-hand window again and it's the white bit at the top no the window on the side of the building that's it this white bit of top there you go that was the insulation that protected

00:56:00 that was the insulation that protected against

00:56:01 against cold penetration deep into the structure could you now take out the free window linings the window linings that we're removing now are the ones that represent the 2

00:56:12 are the ones that represent the 2 12 16 over cladding works they're the plastic window linings

00:56:20 and we can now see i think a camera will go in

00:56:24 go in uh close up again for us and you can see some

00:56:28 some wooden strips around the sides and the sills of the windows perhaps you could point to them dominic and then the camera will pick them up there we are those wooden strips were the ones that

00:56:39 those wooden strips were the ones that held the original window sills in place and the original linings to the side and the

00:56:46 the head of the window and they were left in place in

00:56:50 place in most cases as far as we can see and the new plastic window linings were fixed onto them

00:56:55 onto them and packed onto a combination of kingspan and celatex products around the sill head and jams could you now take out the left hand

00:57:09 could you now take out the left hand strip of packing there's a piece of packing that's been made by the model maker to be removed these were just put around the windows and i'm now going to ask you to one of you to stay in the

00:57:22 to one of you to stay in the backside of the model perhaps philippe and the other dominic to go into the front and perhaps we could switch up to the overhead camera again so we can see what dominic is doing

00:57:34 is doing phillips camera will come on in a moment when the overhead cameras got dominique we i'll ask you to remove the piece of insulation now it's got you know dominic so could you take out the piece of insulation

00:57:46 you take out the piece of insulation on the column [Music]

00:57:49 [Music] we've made that section removable you can see the old column underneath it and i would now like to

00:58:00 view from inside there we are you can now see the gap that existed between the concrete column and the window frame bearing in mind the window frame

00:58:11 window frame was installed the new window frames i should say the new windows frames were installed further forward further out from the building than the old ones

00:58:22 building than the old ones and they were therefore forward of the um part of the column that the wood strip is fixed to and there is a gap at the jamb that is as wide in some

00:58:35 at the jamb that is as wide in some cases

00:58:35 cases as a hundred and twenty millimeters as measured by uh dr lane but also measured by us and that's from top to bottom and so there's a gap

00:58:46 there's a gap on top the bottom of all the windows varying in its size out to 120 well the worst we found was 120.

00:58:54 was 120. so a fire inside uh the apartment um has a route between the column

00:59:02 column and the uh and the window frame as well as

00:59:05 as out through the window [Music]

00:59:09 [Music] um could you now show that from outside [Music]

00:59:16 [Music] and i think we can put safely put the panels back now to assist the viewing uh the the screens i should say

00:59:26 how are we doing for time is this okay while that's going on i'll just ask you mr millet

00:59:37 mr millet in terms of convenience for the inquiry um with this part that's coming up finished i will have a

00:59:46 have a natural break at that point because we will finish with the right hand side of the model and we'll be going to the indicative scheme is that a point at which you'd wish me to stop or carry on i think you can probably stop at this point i have a

00:59:58 probably stop at this point i have a question for you yes and that is whether the cap when we look at um if we can have the camera back on the front side of the model i can ask the question say that those listening to it can understand it um you can see the cavity

01:00:09 um you can see the cavity barrier at the head of the uh uh well not at the head of the window but running along horizontally along the uh compartment floor of the flat above did the cavity barrier

01:00:21 did the cavity barrier above those windows in that position run the full length of the floor line or were the cavity barriers only the length of the top of the window just for clarity's sake they went

01:00:32 for clarity's sake they went the whole way across the span also straight between the columns and they went around the columns as well yes thank you but that that the problem being that

01:00:44 but that that the problem being that they went around the around the concrete columns and around the back of the channels but not around the front of the channels that's the problem exactly thank you could we now then um

01:00:56 thank you could we now then um ask dominic uh to uh first of all could we ask the camera uh philippe with the camera to get an angle looking from the front

01:01:08 to get an angle looking from the front through the gap at the right hand side of the window so we want if we want you if you can get that there we are could you shine your camera

01:01:19 we are could you shine your camera through that gap

01:01:22 and i don't think i need to ask dominique to go in the back with the pointer and show that gap i think the the inquiry has got it i believe that's correct it's clear enough

01:01:33 that's correct it's clear enough okay yes thank you so we can leave that unless there's any other questions on that we can now move across to the indicative uh scheme um well while i'm talking dominic could

01:01:44 um well while i'm talking dominic could you please take down the assembly in the middle um

01:01:51 in its entirety

01:01:57 it's while he's doing that um i'll explain if i may um that i developed the what we've called in the

01:02:08 developed the what we've called in the indicative approach like occasionally slip language and call it an indicative scheme but it's an indicative approach and the reason this was done and you all know that asked me questions on this

01:02:17 on this um later but the reason this was done is that i felt it would be useful for the inquiry to see what a um

01:02:27 what a um piece of work that was as close as possible to the design as developed by studio e would look like

01:02:38 as developed by studio e would look like in terms of dimension size and assembly in a form that was compliant with adb2 which is the route we believe that

01:02:51 which is the route we believe that studio e went now i'm certainly not offering this as a finished design it's not there would be a lot of work to do with it but i am saying that

01:03:04 but i am saying that a dialogue would take place between an architect's office and specialist fire consultants possibly subcontractors in order to develop a scheme

01:03:16 develop a scheme in sufficient uh robust form to go and have early conversations with the building inspector and thereafter the design would be further developed to a point where it was believed that in principle

01:03:29 where it was believed that in principle the

01:03:29 the key issues and agendas and problems had been understood and it would form something sufficiently robust to go out to tender with the important point being you don't want to go out to tender with something which

01:03:40 to go out to tender with something which is then going to prove unbuildable because it can't be made to comply with legislation etc and the indicative scheme uh is uh an arrangement which uh um i've done with the help of

01:03:53 which uh um i've done with the help of colleagues in uh my office when i was there um that takes the principles of the original design so that is a rain screen arrangement it could have been done other ways but

01:04:05 it could have been done other ways but no we followed the rain screen arrangement insulation onto the outside of the building could have been put onto the inside far better on the outside i can talk to that another time so insulation

01:04:17 talk to that another time so insulation on the outside rain screen system um and then most importantly a u-value as good as could be achieved this is the

01:04:28 as good as could be achieved this is the amount of

01:04:29 amount of insulation that the building will have and this is what's going to keep the building comfortable keep the heating bills down the building needs less cooling in summer less heating

01:04:40 summer less heating in winter best place for the insulation is on the outside so we went for insulation on the outside same as studio e all that was right and we aimed for the 0.15 u value

01:04:51 and we aimed for the 0.15 u value which was uh it's been described as an aspirational you value it's a very good you value and laudable really to their great credit the design team

01:05:02 the design team um fordham's and the architects pursued a 0.15 u value in the belief that they would be future built future proof in the building for um a long time to come because it is anticipated that

01:05:14 anticipated that legislation will require ever better you values

01:05:18 values so they took it to what was considered to be an optimum 0.15 and so i've taken all that and fed it into

01:05:27 into this scheme and i'm going to ask dominic now

01:05:31 now [Music]

01:05:32 [Music] while i do that while he's doing it please bear in mind the yellow strips on the column top and bottom and the little uh one in the middle they'll come up in the conversation in a moment could you put the carcass

01:05:43 moment could you put the carcass of the indicative scheme onto the model please

01:05:48 dominic

01:05:52 [Music] that's why those pins are in there that you saw the brass pins they hold these parts that go on

01:06:04 parts that go on there we go right that's safely there yep okay so you'll see uh yellow here as opposed to turquoise

01:06:17 uh yellow here as opposed to turquoise and that's because all of the yellow is mineral wool so we have no um

01:06:24 polyisocyronate here at all it's all mineral wool and so we've got mineral cavity barriers which are mainly behind

01:06:36 horizontally behind the black strips and vertically that you can see one could you point to the vertical cavity barrier dominic there it is and um

01:06:49 the mineral will insulation um you'll never ask me questions about the calculations of that but that had to be thicker

01:06:57 thicker than the pir because it's a less efficient material so the mineral wool on the spandable panels

01:07:06 panels was set at a thicker

01:07:10 greater thickness than the polished than the sony palette than the polyisocyanate turquoise and around the columns it was also thicker that meant that we had to have bigger cleats could you point to the cleats

01:07:23 cleats could you point to the cleats bigger cleats um sorry the cleats had yes the cleats had to be bigger um and

01:07:29 and the vertical channels had to be further out from the building if you can show that vertical channel there it is and we then install the co

01:07:40 and we then install the co the horizontal cavity bars where they should be i'm now going to ask for the camera to come in at an oblique angle onto that indicative scheme there we are thank you that's great when you i may i interrupt you with a

01:07:51 you i may i interrupt you with a question when you say that the cleats had to be bigger do you mean they had to be deeper to accommodate greater quality so you are my poor use of language they had to be deeper to

01:08:04 they had to be deeper to support the rails further out if you remember earlier on i said the entire weight of this structure has to be

01:08:12 be weight of the cloudy has to be taken back through the rails through the rails through the cleats through the brackets into the building so they had to go out further you're quite right i'm very sorry

01:08:23 quite right i'm very sorry thank you bad use of language um could you now

01:08:27 you now show please the horizontal cavity barrier over the window there we go uh with its intumescent strip

01:08:35 strip and could you point to the part of it that returns onto the building

01:08:40 there it is going right back into the building and it goes and then the the yellow insulation above it is cut to fit afterwards could you point to the bracket uh the

01:08:53 could you point to the bracket uh the continuous shelf bracket that supports the um all of that arrangement there it is so there's a shelf bracket and then we get a cut right through the

01:09:04 and then we get a cut right through the window top and bottom and then could we go down to the horizontal cavity barrier under the window now that one i would try and get higher if i could and this is all for

01:09:16 if i could and this is all for discussion with the manufacturers and with the building

01:09:21 building regulations uh officer but i would try and get that cavity barrier a bit higher but you can see a sort of trapezoid shaped piece above it that's all mineral wool

01:09:33 that's all mineral wool limited combustibility packing any gap that is above the um cavity barrier if one exists could you go to the mineral bull that's behind the angle cleat that's supporting that there

01:09:45 angle cleat that's supporting that there it

01:09:46 it it that looks like it's serrated at the edge there but that would just be following the line of the shampoo and that's mineral that would be packed in behind

01:09:54 behind and beneath the window sill once installed

01:09:57 installed so i'm so sorry to interrupt you again you said mineral will limited combustibility is that is that correct or should mineral will be be non-combustible don't combust alive beggar pan yes

01:10:08 beggar pan yes you're correct i'm wrong yes yeah thank you

01:10:11 you yeah um and then we got the angle there and you can see the mineral wall below the cavity barriers between the two cavity barriers uh that run along the spandrel i'm now

01:10:22 uh that run along the spandrel i'm now going to ask that we go out to the nose of that column i'm so sorry to interrupt you again i really don't want to interrupt your play but this anticipates some questions i think

01:10:33 this anticipates some questions i think we may come to you later in in your examination looking at the um cavity barrier at the head of the window there in your indicative scheme could you just point out for us

01:10:45 scheme could you just point out for us um

01:10:45 um exactly where the cavity barrier meets the shelf angle and the potential for a gap between the metal shelf angle there and the concrete and also to point out

01:10:58 and the concrete and also to point out for us

01:10:59 for us how the cavity barrier there sits in relation to the blue line um the compartment floor above it is there an overlap between the

01:11:11 above it is there an overlap between the two which is exact or is there a um an area where there's no overlap i think the

01:11:16 think the the the model will do this well in the first we might have to turn later to drawings to show this but i think the model will do well enough um the way it's been shown on the drawing part in section three of my report is

01:11:28 part in section three of my report is that that cavity barrier uh the the the soffit of it or the lower edge of it is slightly below the concrete

01:11:37 concrete ceiling line yes and it sits on the top of the angle the aluminium angle the aluminium angle would fit

01:11:45 would fit tightly to the concrete so i don't think there's much potential for passage a fire up between the

01:11:51 the angle and the concrete but the angle of course uh has a relatively low melting point

01:11:56 point and therefore itself cannot be taken as a cavity barrier so there would be a discussion about that with the building inspectorate as the design developed and of course with the fire consultant it may be that an

01:12:09 fire consultant it may be that an arrangement that was satisfactory could not be found in which case that shelf angle would have to have uh be reviewed and possibly take the form

01:12:20 be reviewed and possibly take the form of something that ran into the underside of the concrete ceiling

01:12:25 ceiling it could be a revised arrangement but that's the simplest i think it would be possible to get agreement on that but we'd have to look also if it was considered that

01:12:36 look also if it was considered that the um cavity barrier was in itself too low there because it's below the compartment line the obvious answer there is to put two cavity barriers one above the other

01:12:47 cavity barriers one above the other in that position and then move away with the insulation

01:12:51 thank you okay um can we now go to the um nose of uh of that and i think we'll get a better camera angle on that one

01:13:04 better camera angle on that one there we are that's perfect so um actually i'm going to ask you to uh drop the pointer for a moment and move across and shift the other piece of cladding

01:13:15 cladding off so that we can get them both in the camera view at the same time

01:13:28 good and could you take the the cladding off the column a five thank you that's perfect and so on a5

01:13:42 that's perfect and so on a5 you'll see that there are two vertical channels

01:13:46 channels the one wing channel and the other wing channel we talked about those earlier because that has two noses that column being a corner column on this one you'll see there are two vertical channels but they are not

01:13:57 vertical channels but they are not on the nose they're to either side of the nose

01:14:00 the nose and you can see the horizontal cavity barrier could you point to it please dominic

01:14:05 dominic that runs behind the channels they're not winged in this case they're just normal channels behind the channels and along

01:14:16 the channels and along and connects with the cavity barrier on the spindle line is that clear mr millet we got that and the same with the one below dominic if you would please so with this

01:14:27 dominic if you would please so with this arrangement it's possible to continue the

01:14:29 the horizontal channel uh cavity barrier across

01:14:33 across the window head across um the upper window head and the two heads you can see to take those straight across and then straight around the column the

01:14:44 and then straight around the column the intermediate one could you point to that one dominic

01:14:49 that doesn't need to go around the column because that is merely uh um i was going to say ceiling but it's

01:14:57 it's it's uh it's placed at the base of the window

01:15:01 window to inhibit the passage of fire into the um spandel cavity and that connects with the

01:15:07 the vertical cavity barrier which runs up the side of the window [Music]

01:15:17 [Music] now dominic just pointed to that cavity barrier that is a cavity barrier which is on the compartment line which is going all the way through the building but between that and the window there is more

01:15:28 more cavity barrier actually forming the seal to the edge of the window okay now with that done we can put the um the cladding

01:15:42 the um the cladding back onto that end

01:15:46 [Music] in fact we should clad both sides of the building now and leave the middle portion free

01:15:58 i'm sorry this will take a few moments now as this is put back together

01:16:11 i wouldn't normally help but we are keeping two meter distance so i i'm afraid it'll take a little longer [Music]

01:16:32 now you can leave those two off if you wouldn't mind at the moment

01:16:48 wouldn't mind at the moment [Music]

01:17:01 so as this is taking place mr benedictine just pointed out um no i'll wait actually until dominic's got the pointer and then i can show accurately what i'm going to say

01:17:17 accurately what i'm going to say [Music]

01:17:25 [Music]

01:17:31 i would add at this point that i i the model of course um doesn't tell us anything new all this has been dealt with in evidence along the way um but it does help i

01:17:42 along the way um but it does help i think to have a three-dimensional view of the building as opposed to constantly relying on drawings

01:17:47 drawings that's the value of it

01:18:01 [Music] right

01:18:09 so perhaps you'd put the center carcass in now we haven't seen this on the building yet so this is a continuation of the 212 216 overcladding

01:18:20 overcladding into place you can see now the three windows

01:18:24 windows two living room windows and one kitchen window in the two infield panels which are white

01:18:33 and if you could clad that for me please

01:18:44 these panels are all numbered and they actually will only fit probably into certain positions so

01:19:03 i do apologize fizzy delay

01:19:10 [Music]

01:19:33 now across the span rule there is five uh panels could you space them evenly so the joints look about right that's right

01:19:45 the joints look about right that's right so we're five across but we the very left hand one we've cut into two because that's where the indicative scheme and the um and the uh work as constructed meet

01:19:57 and the uh work as constructed meet and i'll ask dominique now to please put on

01:20:00 on the last two uh there we go so that's the panel cut in half for one of a better description there it is and then

01:20:12 when dominique puts the last two panels in which is the end of this presentation we'll swing i'll ask for the camera to come at it from an oblique angle and you'll see what i mean

01:20:25 and you'll see what i mean when i say that the cladding had to move out to accommodate the thicker uh uh insulation could you uh give us the camera angle obliquely please

01:20:37 please lovely and could you now put those two panels in dominic

01:20:50 [Music]

01:21:01 [Music] thank you so you can see that the indicative approach achieves an aesthetic very similar but it would have been a thicker wall and

01:21:14 it would have been a thicker wall and if we could now take uh the camera back out to a square on view of it my very last comment is please would you point to the vertical nose on the uh workers build dominique

01:21:26 on the uh workers build dominique where you get the vertical joint here and on the one that um is the indicative scheme that nose piece is a single piece fixing on the corner which receives the cavity barrier deep

01:21:37 which receives the cavity barrier deep into the back of it that mr millet concludes the presentation well mr hyatt i congratulate you on a very clear and helpful presentation we're all very grateful to you for that

01:21:48 we're all very grateful to you for that there may very well be questions about the presentation in due course but i think for the moment uh it's probably time if we took a short break mr chairman yes well it was an excellent presentation thank you very much

01:21:59 much and thank dominic and felipe for their part in it yes well shall we have a short break at this point thank you um let's say we'll come back at 20 to 4 and take it on from there yeah very good mr

01:22:10 take it on from there yeah very good mr chairman thank you thank you to fallen please thank you

01:39:46 yes would you ask mr hyatt to come back in please thank you

01:40:12 right mr hyatt all ready to carry on thank you yes i'm good thank you yes mr mr chairman thank you very much mr hyde i'm going to start my substantive questions to you by asking you about some some of your experience uh and in

01:40:25 some of your experience uh and in particular your experience of over cladding residential buildings and your knowledge of materials used in the construction of the external facade at grenfell tower itself

01:40:36 itself now your cv doesn't indicate particular experience of over cladding buildings in excess of 18 meters in height so can i ask you what experience of designing or supervising work

01:40:47 or supervising work do you have such work do you have in over-cladding buildings i have not been involved in an over-cladding scheme i've been involved in

01:40:58 involved in um quite extensive uh in terms of scale and size and complex refurbishment works uh for municipalities

01:41:09 municipalities uh two of them in london uh in terms of high rise my firm has been involved and i was the partner who brought the work in and then stayed with it through to completion

01:41:20 stayed with it through to completion visiting

01:41:22 visiting the partner firm that uh with the executive architects and seeing the buildings

01:41:27 buildings built on a good number of occasions some uh

01:41:31 uh 12 or 15 high-rise by which i'm talking about uh 35 story tall buildings residential which i think had about 900 a thousand departments in them so

01:41:44 900 a thousand departments in them so that's i've been involved in issues of escape

01:41:47 escape and uh issues of planning and issues of construction at high rise but not overclouding of this kind

01:41:54 this kind right and was hks involved in aluminium and bronze cladding when working as part of a design consortium on the optus

01:42:02 optus stadium in australia ah yes i i was the partner who lived in perth and saw that project through could you tell us a little bit more about the aluminium and bronze cladding aspect

01:42:14 the aluminium and bronze cladding aspect of it

01:42:15 of it um yes that was a plank system

01:42:20 the the main contractor had design well it was effectively a design

01:42:27 design and build project main contractor had uh detailed design responsibility for that the cladding subcontractors developed that work

01:42:36 that work um those panels were manufactured actually in china and brought to australia from china we were part of a consortium of three architects we had a single office in perth i was

01:42:48 we had a single office in perth i was based in that office probably 35 40 people were based there and um we uh did not individually specialize in any part of

01:42:59 individually specialize in any part of the building the uh teams were completely intermixed and intermeshed right um but i did see that cladding work being developed i saw the

01:43:10 work being developed i saw the principal drawings developed with the structural engineers the packages prepared and then issued out via the main contractor to the subcontractors for tendering

01:43:21 the subcontractors for tendering yes and did that project involve uh to some extent residential accommodation there was no residential accommodation that that was uh entirely a stadium entirely a stadium

01:43:32 entirely a stadium entirely a stadium and were you involved in the design of the cladding at all um i was involved in what we call stage c concept uh and

01:43:43 we call stage c concept uh and inter-stage d design um

01:43:47 many many design workshops on the design development of the building um the uh walls to that building in the end uh canted out or lent it

01:43:58 in the end uh canted out or lent it slightly outwards there was immense discussion about whether they should be vertical or lean out the configuration of the cladding the sizes of the panels all of that went into the general design development mix which took us

01:44:10 design development mix which took us through to a point at which we'd got information ready for packaging and tendering right and did you i was involved yes did you adopt a particular methodology to comply with australian

01:44:21 methodology to comply with australian legislation and industry guidance applicable there yes well the first uh important aspect of that was to establish the um the codes that we would have to comply

01:44:32 the codes that we would have to comply with and so there is a substantial work done in understanding the codes

01:44:38 the codes we had structural engineers who were extremely uh i was going to say valuable to the process but of course they were it was an integrated uh architectural

01:44:49 it was an integrated uh architectural and engineering approach to the facade development and yes code compliance was important from the beginning yes and was the methodology on that project in any way similar to the indicative approach which

01:45:00 similar to the indicative approach which you've explained to us in relation to the exterior facade of grenfell tower

01:45:06 i've not thought about that before but i i don't think it was because the optus stadium apart from being a stadium a very different kind of

01:45:18 stadium a very different kind of building the uh optus stadium was a new build

01:45:22 build and with the um grand fell um overcladding um and all the other work on

01:45:28 work on in grenfell we've got works for an existing building so it's quite a different process actually right were you involved in well let me ask you was the

01:45:39 in well let me ask you was the indicative approach that you've identified here adopted in any other projects that you've worked on

01:45:48 i think it was probably an accumulation of experience across all the projects but probably with an emphasis on um refurbishment work which i've done uh quite a lot actually in in my career

01:46:00 quite a lot actually in in my career and uh i think it's an amalgam of all of those things um that informed my approach to this so it's based on wide experience rather than specific projects

01:46:12 than specific projects yes if you'll excuse the the uh the the term i think i sat down at the beginning and rolled my sleeves up and thought well how have i said about this one i'm a trained architect this is relatively new

01:46:23 relatively new and i set about it on the basis that it was a

01:46:26 was a another project that had come in yes were you involved in projects relating either to the royal stoke university hospital or the salford royal hospital or hope they're both

01:46:37 royal hospital or hope they're both projects that have been done out of the london office of hks i have not personally had any involvement at any stage with any of with eve of them right what proportion of your career

01:46:48 right what proportion of your career over the past 10 years has been in private practice and what proportion would you say was involved in education or academia uh 98

01:46:59 uh 98 private practice right and have you been involved in a project in the last 10 years which was procured by way of as a design and build project yes

01:47:10 of as a design and build project yes yes i'm sorry that 98 since terribly precise i mean the bulk of it i'm yes i'm a vast major practicing activity yes yes

01:47:17 yes so you have been involved in a project at least uh in the last 10 years which was

01:47:21 was which was procured as a design and build yes

01:47:24 yes how many do you think um well the projects that i've been involved in in my recent career well all my crew actually but the recent one in particular have been very large

01:47:35 one in particular have been very large projects

01:47:36 projects um so the optus stadium was something like five six years from beginning to end and i was involved all the way through but

01:47:47 but i was involved in a project in copenhagen which again was design and build and most of my work has been design and build seeing projects that we'd run through delivery to completion

01:48:00 we'd run through delivery to completion and bids for projects which could be the in the form of um design competitions and other forms of procurement uh selection process so those have been the two types um but

01:48:12 so those have been the two types um but i've been involved in design and build work

01:48:15 work um right through my career starting in the 80s

01:48:19 the 80s okay and have you been involved in a project which required the application of

01:48:24 of approved document b very specifically section 9

01:48:28 section 9 concealed spaces cavities or adb section 12 construction of external walls i have not personally dealt with those

01:48:39 i have not personally dealt with those issues

01:48:42 the more recent decade uh decade and a half of my career i have not been at the pit base in that sense i have been in projects where that work has been dealt with by our teams

01:48:55 has been dealt with by our teams and have you been involved in any projects incorporating a cladding system where

01:48:59 where a full-scale test uh pursuant to eight four one four bsa414 has been undertaken either

01:49:06 either part one or part two of bsa i have not been involved in

01:49:12 them now can we please have paragraph 2.3.16 of your report uh first of all uh which is phys

01:49:25 uh first of all uh which is phys 602 at page 50.

01:49:34 and in fact what i want to show you perhaps is not so much that paragraph the paragraph 2.52 where you repeat the point and you say in paragraph 2.3.16 of my report

01:49:46 in paragraph 2.3.16 of my report i state that i would apply the standard i would expect of a reasonably competent architect's practice and that's in quotation marks as opposed to a reasonably competent individual

01:49:57 to a reasonably competent individual architect now i just want to ask you about that do you agree first of all that in respect of organizational matters such as the system of record keeping

01:50:08 keeping assembling an adequate team and so on the appropriate standard would be the standard

01:50:12 standard of a reasonably competent architecture practice

01:50:18 uh yes yes and that's because it's an organization rather than an individual that maintains those systems and performs correct those roles is that right

01:50:26 right correct and in respect of work done by individual architects such as drafting specifications or producing drawings the work must be judged by references is this right to the standard of the reasonable reasonably competent

01:50:38 the reasonable reasonably competent architect

01:50:43 um not quite sure how to answer that um many architects good i think it's 60 and more the profession work in small practices

01:50:54 profession work in small practices five people or less and they will be almost like general practitioners in medicine they will deal with all aspects of work usually uh in the larger offices architects might specialize in a particular area

01:51:05 might specialize in a particular area project management or a particular kind of work sports architecture or healthcare work so it's a little difficult to set the standard but i think when one's

01:51:16 set the standard but i think when one's doing a larger job is looking for the competency that one would expect across an office because once you get into larger jobs and more complex jobs

01:51:27 complex jobs you talked about a stadium a major residential scheme is a complex project you will immediately start to rely on a number of different kinds of specialism coming

01:51:39 different kinds of specialism coming together

01:51:40 together do we take it that you're not applying a single standard of competence across the board a one-size-fits-all approach as it were but rather depending on the activity you're seeking to assess

01:51:51 on the activity you're seeking to assess that is correct yes uh it is your view that there is a consistent objective standard of the reasonably competent architect exercising do you skill and care

01:52:04 yes yes and so can we take it that from you at least as an expert your approach is that you don't apply a lower standard of competence simply because the individual or the practice has less experience or

01:52:16 or the practice has less experience or or lower qualifications no no that is correct um just a couple of general points uh are you a member of the rics no

01:52:28 are you a member of the rics no no have you ever performed the role of an rics employer's agent no no and i take it then you haven't um ever performed the role of an rics

01:52:39 ever performed the role of an rics quantity surveyor either no no and can i just ask you then about architects training in general now you were the riba council member responsible for architectural education for some four

01:52:51 architectural education for some four years as you've told us did that um give you the responsibility for validating schools of architecture to award our iba qualifications i was involved in validation uh the rba

01:53:03 i was involved in validation uh the rba is

01:53:04 is uh organized uh by having heads of department so there was an education director while i was there and the education director has an executive team

01:53:15 director has an executive team uh in this case under her and they deal with the day-to-day work the vice president is a member of council appointed to oversee that particular function within the rba i was the vice president responsible for

01:53:27 i was the vice president responsible for education so i worked closely with the executive

01:53:31 executive i said yes and and when we talk about our iba qualifications are those qualifications set by the arb no they're not um no the riba qualification

01:53:42 qualification is uh essentially an examination created by the riba owned by the raba and maintained by the rba

01:53:49 rba the registration board arca before arb and now arb join the riba in validating schools right so just to be clear the arb

01:54:00 right so just to be clear the arb doesn't have any role or does it in setting or prescribing qualifications and the content of exams um the rba exam is

01:54:14 um the rba exam is split into three parts part one after three years part two after a further two years and part three entire spectrum is about seven years the exam

01:54:24 exam is an exam that used to be taken in the rba's premises at portland place and stu students candidates would come and they would sit and design in the raba schools of architecture were

01:54:37 in the raba schools of architecture were ultimately allowed to run courses and to give the riba title part one two and three alongside their own degrees

01:54:49 their own degrees so the rba exam is essentially an exam that's

01:54:52 that's a part one for example or part two is awarded

01:54:55 awarded with a degree by a university a university would say you have a degree and you have raba part one and so it's it's deemed to be the university degree is deemed to be

01:55:06 university degree is deemed to be equivalent in standard to the riba's own course is it right that to practice as an architect in the united kingdom an individual has to satisfy the arb

01:55:18 satisfy the arb criteria

01:55:21 to practice in the united kingdom and [Music]

01:55:26 [Music] as an architect because we have protection of title not function practice as an architect one must have um passed the riba part one part two and part three exams

01:55:39 part one part two and part three exams or have entered via an exemption which is another story i don't think we need to go into here so rba part one two and three rba exam if that exam is passed the arb except

01:55:52 if that exam is passed the arb except that um student for registration right but is it right that you don't have to be a member of the riba in order to practice as an architect that is correct um the

01:56:05 that is correct um the uh only requirement for practicing the only requirement for using title in the united kingdom is that you are registered with the

01:56:16 is that you are registered with the architects registration board air b yeah okay and is it fair to say that the other the riba's codes of practice

01:56:24 practice are more detailed and more rigorous perhaps uh in terms of competencies than they are than the arb or are they the same do you think um well

01:56:35 well the the code of practice um both organizations are the the arb is a registration body it is not a membership body the iba

01:56:46 body it is not a membership body the iba is a membership body so it has cultural and education programs and a host of other

01:56:50 other services to support an architect the registration board merely keeps the register and deals with issues of discipline but they both have codes of conduct which i think may have been what you're

01:57:01 which i think may have been what you're referring to and both of those codes are fairly short and they are very similar to each other right i think it's right that only the riba imposes a set number of cpd

01:57:13 riba imposes a set number of cpd hours and and uh core curriculum the the arb

01:57:17 arb doesn't do that that i'm afraid i don't know i don't know right but the ar at the rba has certainly run cpd programs my entire career i remember

01:57:28 cpd programs my entire career i remember them

01:57:28 them yeah and that forgive the question maybe a little bit vague but do you think that an architect who is subject to the riba rules is subject to greater regulation

01:57:39 rules is subject to greater regulation than an architect who is not

01:57:43 [Music]

01:57:47 i think by definition it has to be because there's another set of rules yes so uh definitely are they tighter or to a higher standard if that if you'd wish me to answer that as a

01:57:59 if you'd wish me to answer that as a follow-up question as well please do yes i think the rba's work is more in in helping then ruling the rba not only has produced a very detailed

01:58:11 not only has produced a very detailed and good

01:58:11 and good curriculum which by the way is dynamic it's changing over the decades to deal with new agendas ecologically responsible design etc

01:58:20 etc but they they also have ex extremely helpful and valuable methods of practice described in

01:58:31 of practice described in for example the iba job book very detailed uh manual to assist an architect in his or her day-to-day work so the rba produce much more

01:58:42 so the rba produce much more and rightly so because the registration board is not their job the iba produce very useful documentation which provides a template framework through which within which to

01:58:54 framework through which within which to practice

01:58:55 practice just focusing a little bit more on the arb if we can is it right that the training

01:59:00 training which is required by the arb falls into three parts parts one and two which are general criteria and graduate attributes and then part three is the professional practice examination yeah i think i

01:59:13 practice examination yeah i think i i must have failed to explain this clearly enough so perhaps i could step back

01:59:17 back it is part one part two and part three are the raba exams yes so the arb require part one to be completed before part two is embarkable

01:59:28 is embarkable etc but it is the iba exam but the arb do require part one two and three of the ib exam

01:59:34 ib exam to be passed before they will accept um uh graduates for registration right and the performance is it right that the performance criteria are expressed by the arb in very broad

01:59:46 are expressed by the arb in very broad terms

01:59:47 terms and it's for them for the individual architecture schools to to draw up their own curricula uh no it's there may be people who will disagree with me on this but

01:59:58 disagree with me on this but having been dealing with this for at a very close level during a part of my career where i was heavily involved in the iba it is the rba

02:00:07 rba who set the course because it is the reba exam

02:00:12 reba exam the arb for one of a better term they endorse it right um they have stated their acceptance of it they don't compete with it they endorse it they do provide arb nominated panelists

02:00:25 they do provide arb nominated panelists to attend

02:00:27 to attend validation visits to schools but it is the raba exam now i think you've said that the training in respect of the building regulations would normally fall within part three of

02:00:38 would normally fall within part three of the riba exams is that right um professional practice exam i the best way i can describe this i think is to say that there is an intensification

02:00:50 intensification of uh formalized training around

02:00:57 construction legislation at part three stage

02:01:01 stage however from the very first term in a school of architecture students

02:01:08 students will be developing designs because it is a project-based learning process so the very earliest activities is designing an

02:01:19 earliest activities is designing an extremely simple type of building i remember my first year was a fire station a fairly simple building because the roots of circulation the general arrangement is simple within the building from the

02:01:32 is simple within the building from the beginning

02:01:33 beginning students are encouraged by their tutors to design space to arrange space in a way that will be generally compliant with legislation

02:01:45 compliant with legislation now that deals with two things it's roots

02:01:48 roots of escape boots of access which the staircases all of that sort of thing but it's also materials and technology there's less on materials and technology more on

02:01:58 more on spatial planning at the earlier parts of education

02:02:02 education they gradually come closer together but after a student has left university following their first degree they'll have a year

02:02:13 they'll have a year in an office usually and at that point they will start to accumulate considerable experience and knowledge about the building regulations the diploma course the sec part two

02:02:24 the diploma course the sec part two that will be much more complicated buildings requiring a much better understanding of regulations and their application but still it's not at the forefront

02:02:35 but still it's not at the forefront after their second period out in an office um following part two they then can elect to take their part free exams and at that point there are detailed and substantial

02:02:48 there are detailed and substantial lectures in building regulations i remember mine were intense and prolonged over a year and very valuable are they still intense

02:02:59 and very valuable are they still intense and prolonged to this day i think most people would say that they are in some respects less intense in terms of the depth of knowledge

02:03:11 in terms of the depth of knowledge detailed knowledge of building regulations that's required but the agendas are wider there's many more things to consider today than um there were two and three decades ago i

02:03:22 there were two and three decades ago i used the example of ecologically responsible design design um but i think that uh there's i can say as an external examiner i i've been involved as a part one part

02:03:35 i've been involved as a part one part two and part three examiner over the last

02:03:37 last 25 years and i've been examining part three in the last three years i have been

02:03:44 been pleasantly surprised by the depth of investigation and

02:03:55 detail that the students have gone into in terms of building legislation can we go to um inq3014113 please

02:04:07 can we go to um inq3014113 please this is the arb's prescription of qualifications criteria as we can see for parts one two and three

02:04:14 three you see and if we can go to page seven this sets out the general criteria at part one and two now just in general would training in respect of the building regulations not

02:04:26 respect of the building regulations not also fall within um gc 11.1 we just see halfway down the page yeah i see it says the fundamental legal professional statutory responsibilities of an architect etc

02:04:37 of an architect etc do you see that so would um would training in respect of the building regulations not fall within that yes which one did you draw my attention to uh well under gc11 oh i see the graduate will have

02:04:48 oh i see the graduate will have knowledge of one the fundamental legal professional and statutory responsibilities of the architect and the organization's regulations and procedures involved in the negotiation and approval of architectural designs

02:04:59 of architectural designs and it goes on including landlord development control building regulations and health and safety legislation it looks from that mr hyatt that the general criteria part 1 and part 2 as prescribed by the arb

02:05:11 1 and part 2 as prescribed by the arb would also encapsulate building regulation yes i don't see that as being at variance with what i was saying this is part one and part two um and i indicated a growing knowledge and

02:05:22 indicated a growing knowledge and awareness

02:05:23 awareness um right yep i i don't disagree with that i haven't seen this before by the way but i don't disagree with it

02:05:32 yes do you think that it would be important for a client to be told whether the project architect on a project has the part three examination or not

02:05:51 i it again it depends i think on the size of the project and the size of the office and a host of other issues but uh if shall i address that question

02:06:04 but uh if shall i address that question in relation to the size of project at granville yes um why not

02:06:11 i think that provided the um i'll call the person the architect but of course that's not an appropriate

02:06:24 of course that's not an appropriate title

02:06:24 title because of protection of title but if if the person involved is not part three qualified provided that the office framework the office support

02:06:37 framework the office support around that person is good and strong enough

02:06:40 enough then i don't think it necessarily is an issue

02:06:45 issue both in terms of the performance of individual and in terms of advising the client but i think that the different way of looking at it would be to say

02:06:53 to say should an office in the first place put somebody in charge of a project who isn't a registered and fully qualified architect taking the grenfell tower refurbishment

02:07:04 taking the grenfell tower refurbishment project

02:07:05 project then do you consider that the lack of part

02:07:08 part a pass that part three examination would make a practical difference to the project leader's ability to execute its obligations on that project when i say project leader i mean the architect

02:07:19 leader i mean the architect leading that that part of the project team right i have to be careful here i don't want to evade the line of your questioning evade it i don't want to but i can say that i have met and worked

02:07:30 i can say that i have met and worked closely with architects who have not been part pre-qualified they've had their part one and they're part two and they have been uh gifted in the extreme

02:07:42 uh gifted in the extreme uh i know

02:07:45 uh i know that um there are many architects working at very senior positions in many well-known firms who are not fully qualified they haven't got their part three

02:07:57 three generally speaking i think it is a very useful thing to have taken part free because the kind of training that i was describing to you

02:08:08 describing to you that in my case took a year to carry out the kind of training offered in schools of architecture around the country at part time for their part 3 is in my view extremely valuable if not

02:08:21 in my view extremely valuable if not invaluable in giving a general understanding of a host of agendas from contracts and administration through to building regulations which are certainly more useful to an

02:08:33 which are certainly more useful to an architect to have them not to have yes now turning to fire engineering um on what aspects of fire engineering if any are architects typically trained perhaps i can ask the question slightly

02:08:45 perhaps i can ask the question slightly differently are architects typically trained on any aspects of fire engineering well fire engineering is a specialist discipline and uh i've no doubt there are some

02:08:56 uh i've no doubt there are some architects who who do extensive work in that field i don't know of any but um a normally trained architect will have developed

02:09:08 will have developed a considerable understanding of and respect for building control um legislation around designing

02:09:22 legislation around designing for fire but they won't have the same kind of

02:09:31 level of knowledge and skill that a trained fire engineer would have right um taking the architects education process are [Music]

02:09:41 [Music] subject such as reaction to fire the difference between the euro classes the difference between the euro classes and the national classes for fire classification combustibility of materials things like

02:09:53 combustibility of materials things like that are they typically taught

02:09:58 at part three possibly at parts one and two in my experience unlikely when you say possibly what why is there a range of possibilities

02:10:09 is there a range of possibilities um i think the reason i said possibly is is not that there may be a range of possibilities but that i don't actually have that detailed knowledge of the part

02:10:20 have that detailed knowledge of the part three curriculum at the moment even though i've been examining in it i haven't been teaching in it so you're not saying it depends from teacher to teacher or school to school no schools vary greatly

02:10:31 no schools vary greatly in part one and part two but when it comes to that part three i think the course

02:10:35 course structures are very similar i see um is there uniformity across uh architectural schools

02:10:48 across uh architectural schools in terms of the topics they teach and the standards to which they teach them

02:10:55 i'll respond very concisely on that uh no

02:10:58 no thank you um now you graduated from your architectural training i think this is right in 1978 and um do you recall when you graduated

02:11:09 and um do you recall when you graduated that the summerland fire had had occurred i think in the isle of man

02:11:14 man in the summer of 1973 i believe is that right

02:11:17 right and do you remember that there was a a report of the summerland fire commission in may 1974. i i couldn't pin a date on it i do remember there was a report i in fact

02:11:29 remember there was a report i in fact remember the building inspector speaking on television i remember seeing it yes um well let's look at it it's the it's fbu

02:11:37 fbu will need the native of this please fbu 50130 please in the native form

02:11:51 and there it is um can we please turn to page 84.

02:12:06 can we please turn to page 84. your you could see that paragraph five it says

02:12:09 it says architectural training should include a much extended study of fire protection and precautions and then if we go back a little bit in this document to page 69

02:12:24 if we can go to paragraph 209

02:12:30 let's pay it's internal page 69. so it's six pages on in this document

02:12:48 in this document yes um you can see that um it says five lines down an assessment of safety particularly fire safety

02:12:59 particularly fire safety appears so far to have been generally neglected in architectural education and just looking at those two um selections selected quotations from the commission report from that year

02:13:10 commission report from that year are you aware whether the recommendations here or these observations were ever put into practice ever acted upon

02:13:24 i do not know you don't know whether or if so how these recommendations were implemented across the architecture schools

02:13:32 schools i don't know it was a my involvement with architectural education apart from being a teacher in the 80s my involvement at the iba was from the

02:13:45 involvement at the iba was from the middle 90s onwards and summerland had happened well before then so the uh the adoption of these recommendations um obviously very important regulations

02:13:56 um obviously very important regulations recommendations i don't know what the iba did at the time to adopt these i'm sure that um a careful note was taken but i do i cannot advise you what was done all right um just going back to the

02:14:07 all right um just going back to the question of um fire safety engineering or perhaps fire engineering and how it impinges on architects training are architects generally trained in the concept of stay put and the principles of compartmentation

02:14:25 i think the principles of compartmentation would be understood uh by an architectural student on their way through

02:14:36 through their courses towards the end of part one and

02:14:39 one and certainly into part two i think the principles would be understood uh by them um the you asked about complementation and a second well the stay put policy and

02:14:51 a second well the stay put policy and they propose related principles

02:14:57 i can't ever remember a design studio crit they have where they review students work in public i can't ever remember a conversation about to stay put policy in a

02:15:09 put policy in a scenario like that students working in offices

02:15:12 offices during their um first year and second year out

02:15:16 year out if that office was uh an office doing residential and um they've got um flats and apartments it would be picked up routine and they would learn that

02:15:27 would learn that through the office that they're in

02:15:30 you said at the beginning of this exchange we've been having that um architects would start really looking at projects in other words their training was project based is it your opinion

02:15:41 was project based is it your opinion that that

02:15:42 that that is at risk of resulting in a lack of experience of fire safety requirements particularly in high-rise buildings

02:15:52 no no

02:15:55 architects have to learn to shift and manipulate shift and manipulate space in the mind and the imagination i won't go into any detail unless you ask me further but that's the first

02:16:06 ask me further but that's the first thing they need to learn then they need to know how to make that space it's critical as they learn how to make that space they start to understand fire fire regulations escape construction materials

02:16:18 construction materials but the first thing is to learn the shifting and manipulating space otherwise you can't plan and perhaps i wasn't quite clear if an architect's training is predominantly project based um how would that architect know what to

02:16:31 um how would that architect know what to do in relation to fire safety if the projects they've worked on throughout their career so far are low-rise buildings

02:16:40 well if we cons if we focus at the moment on education i think uh all students on their way through college would have been involved in

02:16:50 in uh larger and more complicated buildings i certainly was by the time i got to my diploma i was involved in a very large scheme um some 200 apartments uh mixed with an opera house mixed with

02:17:02 uh mixed with an opera house mixed with a range of other services and in that course which was project based i had to research what was required but i was tutored to apply

02:17:14 to apply code to that building plan arrangement and so i had to actually describe the building in terms of its construction i remember going um to structural engineers to have advice on

02:17:26 structural engineers to have advice on how i would fire protect the building that was in my fifth year at college so pretty heavy duty stuff actually right but if all you've ever worked on in practice is low-rise buildings such as for example

02:17:37 low-rise buildings such as for example schools or gymnasiums or football stadiums uh or buildings which are non-residential or residential buildings which are below 18 meters in height

02:17:49 18 meters in height what experience would you ever build up or expertise would you build up um which would be relevant to high-rise buildings

02:17:57 buildings well we we're design we're designers and we're trained to design and through design to solve problems

02:18:04 problems so the fact that an architect has not done

02:18:07 done uh in this case a building of the uh the scale and type of grenfell doesn't to me suggest that there's an immediate problem um

02:18:18 that there's an immediate problem um the important thing is to understand that code has to be researched has to be understood has to be applied

02:18:29 has to be understood has to be applied and where advice is needed from other specialists either architects with a particular experience in that area brought in to the office as subcontracted or employed

02:18:41 subcontracted or employed alternatively out to other consultants like a specialist by consultant architects have to know that they they must in researching the project get the right experience into

02:18:54 get the right experience into that project as it develops yes thank you can i now turn to a different topic and

02:18:58 and i'm going to try to finish this in the next 10 minutes if i can mr chairman it's uh it's it's entirely possible um and it's your it's questions about your opinion in respect of studio e's competence to accept the brief for the

02:19:11 competence to accept the brief for the grenfell tower refurbishment project in the first place so that's what i want to ask you about can i start by asking you to go please up to p h y r five zeros twenty seven

02:19:22 up to p h y r five zeros twenty seven at page seventeen p h y r five zero two seven at page seventeen and here we have uh paragraph two point five

02:19:32 five point b at the top of the page do you see that mr hyatt there yeah and i just want you to look um at this paragraph

02:19:41 paragraph and you say uh just above halfway down after identifying the fact that the studio e doesn't appear to have had any significant experience in residential work or major

02:19:52 experience in residential work or major refurbishment or high-rise development you say consequently i do not believe that their lack of experience in these areas provided a reason for them to decline the commission i do however think that they had an

02:20:03 i do however think that they had an express duty to ensure that the firm organized itself effectively in terms of preparation and resourcing for what was for the practice a new and challenging type of project i

02:20:14 a new and challenging type of project i do think as stated above that in this respect the standard of service that studio you were obliged to provide was that which would should be expected of a reasonably competent architectural

02:20:25 of a reasonably competent architectural practice

02:20:26 practice holding itself out as competent to work on high-rise residential refurbishment and over-cladding works um now you say that um does that really summarize the view that

02:20:39 does that really summarize the view that you were expressing to me just a moment ago

02:20:41 ago about what if they'd not had the experience yes yes now we know from the evidence that studio e as a practice had no previous experience of high-rise residential overclouding projects

02:20:53 residential overclouding projects in your view could achievement of this standard of service that you've identified here in your report ever realistically be achieved by cpd or research alone

02:21:04 be achieved by cpd or research alone yes i'm in no doubt that it could now a paragraph 2.5.14 just below that on the page you say accordingly it is my opinion that at the time of the appointment of

02:21:15 that at the time of the appointment of the studio we would rightly have considered themselves well able to undertake a project of the type size and complexity of the grenfell tower refurbishment and overcladding albeit i would expect that they should have recognized

02:21:27 they should have recognized that their then current levels of knowledge and skill would need to be expanded

02:21:31 expanded this could have been done by undertaking research into the discrete characteristics of the project that they were about to undertake and if necessary making some strategic hires

02:21:40 hires such approaches are common amongst architects when undertaking new commissions now could that step up of included bringing on a consultant resource to assist

02:21:50 assist studio e with specialist elements of the project

02:21:53 project absolutely and would you expect a firm in studio e's position to consider employing

02:21:58 employing the services of a facade consultant or facade engineer to assist studio e with the design of the facade which they've been appointed to carry out

02:22:10 no i would expect them to

02:22:16 look very hard at the problem to satisfy themselves whether or to question of themselves whether they had resource in the office that could do the

02:22:28 resource in the office that could do the research necessary and develop the expertise necessary or whether they should make a strategic car which is a separate question when you've asked i know but if i was not satisfied that

02:22:40 i know but if i was not satisfied that we could do that then i would look outside but i think that um

02:22:45 that um their first port of call would have been to see whether they could do that work on their own at what work stage would you consider that that looking to see whether they could do it on their own would take place

02:22:58 on their own would take place uh like at the beginning at the beginning could it be done at a later stage say d and e or d or e well time is ticking fast on a project

02:23:08 project um i know there were delays and uh hiccups on the progress of this one but once the instruction comes and you're aware of a project you you're moving pretty fast and you're making decisions which

02:23:21 and you're making decisions which are going to impact on our work right through the various stages

02:23:28 stages and so the foundations of the design work need to be right from the beginning so i wouldn't want to be

02:23:36 be tackling a project at concept level without having a pretty good understanding of what i'm trying to achieve

02:23:42 achieve because i might make mistakes which are going to lead to abortive work upset to time and program and all the rest can i ask you to see neil crawford's witness statement

02:23:54 neil crawford's witness statement that's sea 3014275 please at page 74 and i'd like to show you paragraph 241

02:24:06 now he says here that

02:24:11 and he didn't worry about the the email which is the background and context for this paragraph he says in the second line in preparing this witness statement i sought to recall more information

02:24:22 more information about the relevant project

02:24:26 and i believe it was the three and four hardman square spinning fields manchester which foster and partners designed for allied london in an and around 2004. i was the project lead for foster and partners and i now recall

02:24:37 for foster and partners and i now recall that arab facades assisted in designing the cladding as a facade consultant with metal balfoure as a subcontractor now on on the basis that mr crawford had

02:24:49 now on on the basis that mr crawford had been involved in a previous project uh cladding project that used a facade consultant would you expect that he as the reasonably competent architect should have investigated

02:25:01 have investigated retaining or employing such a consultant on the grenfell tower refurbishment

02:25:15 i i would be i think it's perfectly reasonable to consider whether to do that or not i also think it's perfectly reasonable

02:25:26 i also think it's perfectly reasonable for

02:25:27 for an architect to proceed without a specialist facades consultant on an overcladding project of the kind we're talking about was it unreasonable of him not to have

02:25:38 was it unreasonable of him not to have considered even retaining an external facade consultant or facade engineer given his own experience

02:25:54 i can't put myself in his shoes in terms of

02:25:58 of what view he held of his own experience or not

02:26:03 or not i can only say that as an architect if i was faced with this project i would not have um

02:26:14 i would not have um shied away for want of a better term from

02:26:17 from [Music]

02:26:18 [Music] dealing with because i i would have following initial research decided the route i was going to go which would have been adb2 and i would have considered that i could have

02:26:29 have considered that i could have dealt with that with an able team around me albeit i would have wanted um to have a fire consultant a specialist fire consultant yes and and you said i would have wanted

02:26:41 yes and and you said i would have wanted to have a fire consultant a specialist fire consultant

02:26:47 my question is would it have been unreasonable for you not to have had a fire consultant

02:26:59 i i don't think there are absolutes but the experience that studio e had would suggest

02:27:10 that studio e had would suggest this is a building type that they haven't done before um it's certainly pretty substantial and complex

02:27:18 complex um one would have to make an extremely good argument for not having a fire consultant that argument might be well we've been doing these for 15 years and we know all

02:27:29 doing these for 15 years and we know all about it we've got some highly specialized architects in the office who've done ten of these before but looking at it from where they were coming from i think that uh it would have been very

02:27:41 i think that uh it would have been very very

02:27:42 very prudent it would have been important for them to get a fire consultant and to use that fire consultant properly yes when you and i'm sorry to press you mr hall when you say it would have been very very prudent

02:27:53 very very prudent to get a fire consultant and to use that fire consultant properly can we read from that it is your opinion that it would have been imprudent for them not to have done so

02:28:06 that particular firm yes i'm not saying that no architect could have proceeded without but that particular firm a partner in that firm when we take on work we've got to be

02:28:17 work we've got to be confident that we can deliver what is required we have to look at our resources

02:28:23 resources we have to look at the skill the size and we have to satisfy ourselves we can do that work and

02:28:30 and do it with a a a competence uh and a confidence i wouldn't have wanted to proceed on that without getting a fire consultant

02:28:44 that without getting a fire consultant but i think may i just make one quick point i as an architect my own firm before i was with hks my own firm

02:28:54 firm undertook an immensely complicated uh building which was all about fire because it was a fire research testing station

02:29:02 station we did not go out to specialists we dealt with it ourselves so there is you know there is an answer um if if you think

02:29:12 think you can address the problem as an architect as a designer then i i think it's reasonable to proceed

02:29:21 proceed but you'd have to make the case for why you wouldn't be going to a specialist and i think from where they sat i would as a partner who said we need a fire

02:29:32 fire consultant on this yes and i think you've answered my question yes that not to dance was improvement in this case yes thank you mr chairman it's half past four yeah um i'm not that far off finishing

02:29:45 yeah um i'm not that far off finishing this topic but it it could easily wait till tomorrow morning

02:29:52 depends on depends on how far we get into

02:29:55 into um things i am 10 minutes probably i think we might be wiser to call a halt there i think that's right yes sometimes an estimate of 10 minutes turns into 15 or 20 of us to hire

02:30:07 turns into 15 or 20 of us to hire not always of course no but sometimes so i think we'll we'll stop there for the day um we'll resume

02:30:14 resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow please and now you've started giving your evidence i have to ask you please not to talk about your evidence or anything relating to it to anyone when you're out of the room i will not

02:30:25 when you're out of the room i will not right

02:30:26 right good thank you very much well uh yash and laura will look after you thank you

02:30:48 thank you very much 10 o'clock tomorrow thank you