Dr. Barbara Lane provides expert evidence on Regulation 38 (fire safety information), building manuals, and health and safety files under CDM regulations. She explains professional duties for fire safety documentation and identifies critical failures in the Grenfell refurbishment process.
00:00:09 would you ask dr lane to come back in
00:00:14 please
00:00:30 all right dr lane yes i am there are a couple of other questions that right yeah it's just a couple of short questions yes i just want to pull back up the celetex data sheet um so this is ryd three zeros one eight one
00:00:43 so this is ryd three zeros one eight one five five
00:00:48 so that's the data sheet that we looked at this morning that mr ashes is sent on the 18th of september 2014. now just a couple of short questions on this would you expect a reasonably confident fire engineer
00:01:00 confident fire engineer to understand and interpret the contents of such a data sheet in terms of its performance for fire yes and mr ashton having
00:01:11 yes and mr ashton having been asked about this data sheet and having been told that the insulation was class nor would you have expected him to to have advised against the use of
00:01:22 to have advised against the use of celetex
00:01:22 celetex rs 5000
00:01:26 rs 5000 first yeah so first i would have first expected him to ask about the assembly and the overall plan yeah for
00:01:38 and the overall plan yeah for the assembly being compliant so he might have
00:01:41 have asked if a test of that assembly had been done
00:01:46 been done or for something else first yeah and i think you said this morning that you would have expected him to have advised that paragraph 12.7 of approved document b
00:01:57 approved document b um required the insulation to be of limited combustibility yes but would you also have expected him to have said you shouldn't be using celetex rs 5000
00:02:10 you shouldn't be using celetex rs 5000 certainly pending clarification of its proper fire performance in that system i would expect him to have said that unless you have an you know the valid information for an
00:02:22 you know the valid information for an assembly
00:02:23 assembly i need to warn you that a cl an insulation that only has a class naught
00:02:33 test you know test certificate is a fundamental breach of the building regulations now i know when i say that other
00:02:42 other their legal profession minds but in our profession we take the we do explain to our clients when things are major or minor
00:02:54 are major or minor yeah non-compliances and the consequences of those in the context of fire
00:02:59 fire legislation yes okay and i would have expected him to warn them you said should he have told
00:03:06 told them not to use it that was the question yeah so i
00:03:09 yeah so i i'm not prepared to kind of take that next step no i think his job was to stay to tell them what it meant as a minimum yes i understand thank you
00:03:20 as a minimum yes i understand thank you that's helpful mr chairman those were all of the questions that we had right so you've finished your question i've done my questions we just need a quick five minutes to clean this area and then ms grogan is going to replace me and ask some questions about cdm and
00:03:32 me and ask some questions about cdm and regulation 13. i was warned uh we now have to do a little bit of housekeeping because there's going to be a change in council so do i need to leave yeah i'm afraid you do so do we oh i see you right okay okay so we're in
00:03:45 oh i see you right okay okay so we're in five minutes we'll get you back as soon as we can
00:03:48 as we can all right thank you thank you
00:08:43 yes would you ask dr lane to come back in now please thank you
00:08:57 right dr lane different council but more questions i'm afraid okay all right yes gregan thank you good afternoon dr lane we're now moving on to a new area and i'm going to ask
00:09:08 on to a new area and i'm going to ask you some questions about regulation 38 of the building regulations and the health and safety file under the cdm regulations you've provided the inquiry two sets of reports and they should both be
00:09:20 reports and they should both be on your desk one addressing regulation 38
00:09:23 38 and one addressing the health and safety file
00:09:27 file the first is a report entitled regulation 38 fire safety information the first version was dated 31st of october 2019 and consisted of a main report and two
00:09:39 and consisted of a main report and two appendices appendix a in appendix b you then prepared an updated report version two dated 19th of may 2020 which has three appendices appendix
00:09:50 2020 which has three appendices appendix a
00:09:50 a appendix b and appendix c and you've also provided a further updated version of that report dated 26th of october 2020
00:09:58 2020 and that's the one that's in front of you on the desk that report contains some corrections to typographical errors and additional references to documents and oral evidence
00:10:10 and oral evidence and we can find that for the transcript at the main report is blarp25021 appendix a blarp2607
00:10:24 appendix a blarp2607 appendix b blarp50 sorry blarp25020 appendix c blarp2609
00:10:36 appendix c blarp2609 and you've also provided a separate document setting out the changes of october
00:10:41 october 2020 blarp2
00:10:45 is that all sounded about right yes yes a long list there i hope you're right
00:10:52 right mostly that's reading things in so that they're in the right understood yeah unless i specify otherwise uh when i refer to your report yeah i'll be referring to version two as updated in october 2020.
00:11:04 updated in october 2020. okay thank you can you please confirm that you've not changed your overall conclusions as between the 19th of may 2020 report and the 26th of october 2020 report
00:11:16 that report focuses on regulation 38 of the building regulations its application to the various works carried out at grenfell tower including the primary refurbishment and your review of the building manual
00:11:27 and your review of the building manual for the primary refurbishment is that right
00:11:30 right yes and as you indicate in the declaration on section 23 which we can pull up now that's blarp25021 at page 300.
00:11:51 um it should be the next section try page 301
00:11:57 page 301 there we go um you've provided that report in the same way as you would have provided a report to the court yes and on page 302 we see a statement of truth is that your
00:12:10 we see a statement of truth is that your signature there yes it is um we're going to have to go through this all again now with the next report which is the health and safety file
00:12:18 file um version one was dated 29th of october 2019
00:12:23 2019 and you then prepared an updated report version 2 dated the 9th of june 2020 and a further updated version dated 22nd of october 2020 and again that updated version contains
00:12:35 and again that updated version contains corrections to typographical errors additional references to documents and oral evidence and we can find that
00:12:44 blarp25016 and a separate document setting out the changes of october 2020 blarp2
00:12:54 and that report focuses on the cdm regulations and in particular the obligation to have and maintain a health and safety file as relevant to fire safety only yeah
00:13:06 as relevant to fire safety only yeah and again if we pull that up that's
00:13:10 blarp25016 at page 192.
00:13:16 uh again my page references seem to be out by page um there's your experts declaration you've provided that in the same way as you would
00:13:25 you would have provided the report to the court yep uh and on page one nine four is that your signature yes it is and again can you confirm that you've
00:13:36 and again can you confirm that you've not changed your overall conclusions as between the 9th of june report and the 22nd of october report no i haven't now any matters of law within your reports will ultimately be
00:13:47 within your reports will ultimately be for the chairman and the panel to decide but can you confirm that the factual matters set out in your reports are true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes and can you confirm that your reports accurately set out your true and
00:13:59 reports accurately set out your true and complete professional opinion on the matters addressed within them yes now just to outline the structure of your evidence on these topics i'm first going to ask you about your background and experience
00:14:10 background and experience relevant to both of these topics then i'll ask you some brief questions about how
00:14:15 how industry professionals approach areas of their work that raise legal issues and you touched on that briefly with ms grange just a moment ago we'll then look at regulation 38 first
00:14:26 we'll then look at regulation 38 first and the health and safety file after that
00:14:28 that okay and then i'll ask you about the availability of both the regulation 38 information and the health and safety file on the night of the fire
00:14:37 the fire so that's a topic addressed in both reports okay and we'll look at those together as one at the end right
00:14:44 right and finally i just want to make clear that as module 1 has focused on the primary refurbishment i.e the works which took place between 2012 to 2016 i will not be asking you detailed
00:14:55 i will not be asking you detailed questions about earlier works or subsequent works to grenfell tower such as the lifts the fire doors and the gas main as these will be covered in detail in module 3. okay
00:15:06 covered in detail in module 3. okay so just to make that clear
00:15:10 now moving on to my questions starting first with your background and experience ms grange has already asked you about your background experience and you've provided an updated cv
00:15:21 provided an updated cv if we could go to that uh blarp25015
00:15:29 and in terms of your experience relevant to regulation 38 you've set out some relevant experience which starts on page four
00:15:40 which starts on page four um and then goes over to the next page
00:15:47 and we see at the bottom there building manual and health and safety file just at the bottom and then over again to page six um we see another
00:16:01 six um we see another uh the list of projects continues uh why have you selected these as examples of your experience of building manuals in regulation 38
00:16:13 because that's what i did on the project how often does your work involve advising on or preparing information relevant to regulation 38.
00:16:24 preparing so can you say that again preparing
00:16:28 preparing and advising on or preparing information relevant to regulation therapy i i don't know how often because it's not something i've ever quantified
00:16:38 but the fire my role as my in my role as a fire safety engineer i explain what regulation 38 is and sometimes if an architect or principal contractor
00:16:50 principal contractor whose duty it is to deal with completion certificates if they require further assistance they would ask
00:17:00 me as such on the project some on projects where i've carried out that service
00:17:05 service so it's right that you have practical experience of working with regulation 38 yes that's why that's what the projects in my cv are meant to do and that's a selection
00:17:17 meant to do and that's a selection yeah and we also see projects that you've set out um relevant to your health and safety file experience i think that's page eight
00:17:30 um there uh and again um is it right that they show that you have practical experience of contributing to or advising on a health
00:17:41 contributing to or advising on a health and safety file so the the three projects you showed showed me earlier
00:17:46 earlier and there are three projects i selected especially to show where i have had a specific experience on the health and safety file and regulation 38 and providing fire
00:17:57 and regulation 38 and providing fire safety information these are
00:18:01 these are [Music]
00:18:05 projects where i work on site
00:18:10 i see i think so um on page six then the first set of examples that yeah exactly so that's where i have expressly
00:18:21 exactly so that's where i have expressly um participated in information in a health and safety file as opposed to being a user of a health and safety file which i would be on lots of existing
00:18:35 which i would be on lots of existing in in an existing building project thank you that's how yeah now moving on to um legal matters
00:18:46 now moving on to um legal matters in both of the topics that we're going to cover today regulation 38 and the health and safety file the relevant duties and requirements come from legislation i.e regulations
00:18:57 legislation i.e regulations that's the building regulations 2010 for reg 38
00:19:01 reg 38 and the construction design and management regulations 2015 as well as earlier versions of those regulations in your reports you've explained how these regulations operate and in some cases what you understand
00:19:13 and in some cases what you understand the regulations themselves to mean can you briefly explain why as a non-legal professional you've given a view about the meaning of regulations because it's my job
00:19:24 regulations because it's my job to have read them thoroughly to understand them as a practicing fire safety engineer and to have a professional opinion on them
00:19:35 them it's not a legal opinion because i have no
00:19:39 no legal skill but in my work i have to understand the requirements of me if you want to say it that way so any building
00:19:50 any building i work on in whatever kind of capacity that is you know existing building
00:19:57 building new build i have to give accurate advice to my clients who whatever type of client that is so i have to have understood the fire
00:20:09 so i have to have understood the fire relevant legislation regulations statutory and non-statutory guidance otherwise i can't give accurate professional or technical
00:20:22 accurate professional or technical opinion
00:20:24 opinion and in your um professional life do you advise clients about whether they are or at risk of being in breach of regulation yes i do and i'm paid to give advice like that
00:20:37 to give advice like that so i'm appointed on a project or a complexity and i'm asked to give my opinion and all it is is my opinion and i have to
00:20:48 all it is is my opinion and i have to give it
00:20:49 give it and explain from my technical perspective why you know why that is my opinion it when i say things like that i'm not thinking about anything else
00:21:01 i'm not thinking about anything else beyond that that other you know legal experts may may think i i understand my opinion may be found to be wrong or less valid than another
00:21:15 wrong or less valid than another for example fire safety engineer's opinion on the same matter but i have to explain it to my clients and why
00:21:22 and why and i do i and and i'm not unique in that we do that all the time
00:21:29 the time in our work thank you and i think you you would agree then that the question of the meaning of regulations is ultimately for a court and in this case the panel
00:21:40 for a court and in this case the panel but you've given as you say your opinion on what they mean because it's relevant to your professional role yeah so i feel i have to do that so when you're if you know i've done a lot of work with principal contractors
00:21:52 lot of work with principal contractors as i've said and when you're coming up to the end of a project it could be a very frantic time getting all the paperwork getting everything built making sure everything's okay and
00:22:04 making sure everything's okay and sometimes when projects are handed over they there may be some work left outstanding that you do after handover and that's a really important time where you explain major and minor non-compliances
00:22:17 and minor non-compliances and if a client should allow the handover and let minor non-compliances occur afterwards so in that space particularly you you take you have to give a view
00:22:29 you you take you have to give a view and you live with the consequences of that view also thank you uh turning now to um the topic of the regulation 38
00:22:41 um the topic of the regulation 38 information and looking first at regulation 38 itself and we can turn that up in your report at blarp25021 page 9.
00:23:00 um and it's that top half of the page there
00:23:04 there you've um quoted from regulation 38 and looking first just at the type of work that it applies to we can see that at 38a
00:23:17 we can see that at 38a it applies to work which consists of or includes the erection or extension of a relevant building or is carried out in connection with a relevant change of use of a building and part b of schedule one
00:23:28 building and part b of schedule one imposes a requirement in relation to that work is that right yes and moving down then to um 38 sub paragraph two it says the person carrying out the work
00:23:41 it says the person carrying out the work shall give fire safety information to the responsible person not later than the date of completion of the work or the date of occupation of the building or extension whichever is the earlier
00:23:52 the earlier and then beneath there we see some definitions fire safety information is defined as information relating to the design and construction of the building or extension
00:24:01 extension and the services fittings and equipment provided in or in connection with the building or extension which will assist the responsible person to operate and maintain the building or extension with reasonable safety
00:24:13 extension with reasonable safety and a relevant building is defined there as a building to which the regulatory reform fire safety order that rro
00:24:20 rro 2014 applies and then a relevant change of use is a material change of use um where after it takes place the rro
00:24:31 um where after it takes place the rro will apply or continue to apply and responsible person
00:24:35 person has the same meaning as in the rro yes and now we can see your analysis of the primary
00:24:42 primary refurbishment and why it was a relevant change of use in a later section of your report and if we go to that it's
00:24:49 that it's page 103 at 13.4.7 and you see there the works described by the full plan submission for the primary refurbishment works also touched
00:25:00 refurbishment works also touched every part of the rest of the building from ground floor to the roof of grenfell tower can we take it that your view is regulation 38 therefore applied to all of the works that comprise the
00:25:11 all of the works that comprise the primary refurbishment
00:25:16 i think that fire safety information was needed for fire safety works during the primary refurbishment um
00:25:28 refurbishment um so it would not just apply to the parts of the refurbishment that were a material change of use so the changing into the flats on the line oh i see what you mean
00:25:37 you mean so um
00:25:42 so um well you you've left
00:25:46 there's an extra part of materia material change of use but but anyway so on the lower floors were a material change of use but you still have that duty because of
00:25:58 but you still have that duty because of the building because of the height of the building to consider before and the clouding occurred on all the floors and the fire safety systems
00:26:09 systems their extension into the new floors they don't exist in isolation so in in my opinion it's very hard to cut
00:26:20 in in my opinion it's very hard to cut off
00:26:21 off different parts of the fire safety works and divvy them up into pieces you would explain and pieces you would not
00:26:32 not explain under regulation 38 yes i see so um we can see it just above actually 13.4.6 i skipped a step you've yeah explained there
00:26:42 there yeah that the works included a material change of use yes you give your reasons which is the dwellings were increased and also new flats were introduced that did not previously contain flats
00:26:53 did not previously contain flats and then you go on to say those works also touched every part of the rest of the building yes um and so taking all of that together
00:27:00 together your view is that you had to submit regulation 38 information relating to all works
00:27:07 all works rather than just the new flats so you have to submit regulation 38 information which is fire safety information about fire safety
00:27:19 works that impact fire safety i see yeah um are you aware of a contrary body of opinion on this issue so a body of opinion that believes that you would only need
00:27:31 that believes that you would only need to present information relevant to the flats themselves the flats yes the new flats
00:27:43 so inside the flat no outside the flat do you mean that the the
00:27:51 the so outside the flag because the phlactomize is a different yes issue because anyway so outside the flats the new flats in the common parts
00:28:06 i um i think you're asking me if some people
00:28:10 people might think they just needed to explain that with respect to relevant fire safety information yes that's what i'm asking
00:28:16 asking but as i've explained the smoke control system doesn't operate independently on that floor the cladding doesn't exist independently on on those stories only
00:28:29 independently on on those stories only um the the result sorry excuse me um i'm trying to think what else the the the lift shafts were extended they don't
00:28:40 the lift shafts were extended they don't exist
00:28:41 exist in isolation on those floors so when i take every single part if if you wanted to take that view every the substantial changes on the lower
00:28:54 the substantial changes on the lower floors
00:28:55 floors are in a fire don't exist in a separate kind of
00:29:03 a cut-off place i i'm not probably not verbalizing that correctly yeah no i understand i understand what you mean i think the the point i'm trying to get at is is there a rival view in the industry
00:29:16 is there a rival view in the industry that you would just look at that that area
00:29:19 area oh sorry no not that i'm aware of thank you no
00:29:24 um the obligation to comply with regulation 38 rests on the person carrying out the work
00:29:31 work yes um you've given your understanding of this concept at 2.18 of your report um and if we can go to your analysis it's on page 24.
00:29:45 and we see they're the heading person carrying out the work yeah um you start there by saying that there's no definition provided in the regulations of person carrying out the work yes and it's also
00:29:56 carrying out the work yes and it's also not defined in any approved document or fire safety procedural guidance yes and you then say it 2.18.3 that for the purposes of this report you've defined the person carrying out
00:30:07 you've defined the person carrying out the work
00:30:08 the work to be the organization with primary responsibility for and in primary control of undertaking the physical construction yeah and then you set out a little later um the factors that have helped you in
00:30:21 um the factors that have helped you in reaching that interpretation yeah now the inquiry has heard from ms menzies
00:30:27 menzies that she considers the person carrying out the works to be the owner or at least the owner is one of the candidates um does that now you've um you're aware of that evidence does that affect your
00:30:38 of that evidence does that affect your view at all it doesn't affect my view but i think it's a very interesting point and i i also um like miss menzies i read her report last week have experience of working
00:30:51 last week have experience of working with the client body where they have a you know a contractor arm that does work and hands over to the landlord unit
00:31:03 and hands over to the landlord unit in the same organization so on paper it might read that you're handing over the information to yourself
00:31:11 yourself as such as a client body but so i have experience of that where there's
00:31:17 there's an in-house contracting team and they hand over to the in-house responsible person and there's an exchange of information that way
00:31:28 that way and and that does happen currently i don't equate that situation with kctmo
00:31:41 i am however at this time looking very carefully
00:31:46 carefully at the communications between claire williams and janice ray around this time period in my module 3 work and if i found
00:31:57 in my module 3 work and if i found something there that changed my view i would make it clearer then but at this stage and i have read a lot of evidence around that in you know interrelationship so far as
00:32:09 in you know interrelationship so far as far as i'm concerned ryden were in that position they're they're not part of kctmo they were in control of the works they could
00:32:19 could assemble that information and give it to the kctmo as an organization this next step about what happens in the kctmo
00:32:31 kctmo is a very valid one and i am still looking at that and so just for clarity your view is that on the grenfell primary refurbishment it was
00:32:42 grenfell primary refurbishment it was ryden
00:32:42 ryden who were the person carrying out the works yes as i said yeah but you you asked me if you know what miss menzie said raises something and yes it does thank
00:32:55 raises something and yes it does thank you
00:32:55 you and can i ask you this and just thinking of the actual um arrangements for carrying out a construction project yeah and the nature
00:33:06 yeah and the nature of the uh
00:33:10 of the uh uh information that has to be handed over
00:33:13 over yeah which person is likely to be best equipped to produce that information yes in in my opinion on the grandfather project
00:33:24 project it was ryden as principal contractor and my own experience is the principal contractor running that process
00:33:34 process of gathering everything together and am i right in understanding we've had some evidence about this we've touched on this that um in principle
00:33:47 touched on this that um in principle the health and safety file is intended to be made maintained as you go along
00:33:55 go along yeah so that's that's the other file sorry i'm probably confusing everyone knows so
00:34:00 knows so the regulation 38 information is different to see to the cdm information on
00:34:11 to see to the cdm information on on grandfath it was all merged together right okay so my question
00:34:18 question then really ought to be who who is in the best position to produce the cdm uh file the health and safety file
00:34:30 uh file the health and safety file well there's a legal duty to produce the health and safety file which is separate to the this regulation 38 fire safety information so at the moment we're talking about the
00:34:42 so at the moment we're talking about the fire safety information for the building manual
00:34:46 manual under this particular regulation and that is different to the health and safety file required under cdm i think i'm
00:34:57 required under cdm i think i'm responsible for the commission sorry yeah no i didn't want it no it's a total not it it is let's just go back to it because one of the ways in which you might uh reach a decision about who is
00:35:08 reach a decision about who is responsible for jib for producers yes who is best placed to do it
00:35:13 to do it yes because if regulations will work better in one sense than if you give them a different sense that might affect one's
00:35:21 one's approach to the construction so yeah this is why i ask you who's best place to do the job that the regulations require to be done so when it comes to communicating works and the fire safety
00:35:37 works and the fire safety the the fire safety information about works
00:35:40 works i i have always said to be honest it's the principal contractor okay um if the definition was very clear and caused that to become someone else i
00:35:52 and caused that to become someone else i understand that may happen but the principal contractor understands what's happening has the sub you know has his or her sub contractors is programming it
00:36:04 contractors is programming it knows where everything is knows where all the paperwork is so i that's why i always attribute the assembling of the information to them yes thank you yeah yes thank you
00:36:16 yeah yes thank you it is confusing because we are we're talking about various different manuals as we go along yeah and i think you know i think so because it is really confusing so can i just just say
00:36:27 really confusing so can i just just say so at grenfell tower there was one building manual with several parts one part of which was the health and safety file the rest
00:36:39 was the health and safety file the rest of the parts were not the health and safety file okay and yeah it takes months and months and months and months to work all of that out for grantful yeah yeah thank you
00:36:51 yeah yeah thank you and we'll come on and your reports your regulation 38 report also refers to a fire safety manual we will come on to that yeah and explore what that is and how it fits in a moment um staying with
00:37:03 how it fits in a moment um staying with the person carrying out the work yeah um besides um the organization with primary responsibility so the besides the principal contractor are there any other potential candidates
00:37:16 are there any other potential candidates for a person carrying out the work just in principle so designers or would it ever be the case it was someone else who was a person carrying out the work
00:37:27 who was a person carrying out the work no
00:37:31 and in your experience what was the prevailing understanding of who the person carrying out the work is oh honestly i've never asked anybody um is it not something that's come up no
00:37:43 um is it not something that's come up no it's not something that was confusing or led to people to be confused at the time not that i'm aware of no i'm sorry yeah um and i'm going to move on
00:37:54 yeah um and i'm going to move on and ask you um some questions about the guidance supporting regulation 38 and we're still sort of working through what regulation 38 means and what it requires
00:38:05 38 means and what it requires and so you've identified um a number of pieces of guidance that support regulation 38 and if we can look at those
00:38:14 at those in a list it's 11.1.4 on page 72 of your report
00:38:24 and there you've listed out three sets of guidance procedural guidance produced by
00:38:29 by what was dclg um and then after that a fifth edition produced by the labc uh appendix g fire safety information of
00:38:40 uh appendix g fire safety information of approved document b and annex h fire safety manual of bs99 2008 starting first with approved document b
00:38:51 document b [Music]
00:38:52 [Music] you've explained at 11.3.8 page 76 of your report that the guidance in appendix g hasn't changed since adb was first issued in 2006.
00:39:04 since adb was first issued in 2006. is that right yes yes um [Music]
00:39:09 [Music] so there are no relevant changes that we need to concern ourselves with and if we can then just go to adb clg 50173 page 149.
00:39:36 that's appendix g there
00:39:41 and if we look on the left hand side just above um
00:39:46 so it's the second half of the page um if we look down on the left hand side just
00:39:54 just above the heading simple buildings it says this appendix is only intended as a guide as to the kind of information that should be provided um for clarity the guidance is given in
00:40:05 um for clarity the guidance is given in terms of simple and complex buildings however the level of detail required will vary from building to building and should be considered on a case-by-case basis um given that it says there that the appendix is only intended as a guide
00:40:18 appendix is only intended as a guide does that tell us anything about how strictly it should be followed or does it distinguish appendix g from the rest of adb in any way
00:40:24 way [Music]
00:40:28 i don't think so now
00:40:32 it then goes on to give guidance for simple buildings and complex buildings but it's right that it doesn't actually define what a simple building is or what a complex building is that's correct and in your opinion was grenfell a
00:40:44 and in your opinion was grenfell a simple building or a complex building oh well well i personally think it's a complex building what features in particular lead you to that view
00:40:54 that view so it was a high-rise residential building which if it was being built now would it would require sprinklers didn't have sprinklers
00:41:06 didn't have sprinklers it was undergoing a complex overclouding project with different materials
00:41:16 it was um it needed a new smoke control system and the designers had to work within the constraints of the existing building so they didn't
00:41:29 of the existing building so they didn't have a like free reign over how to develop a smoke control system
00:41:39 and also
00:41:42 no i think i think they would be my three main points i think i gave a longer list in my report but i after a day and a half i can't remember everything off by heart anymore i'm sorry but i did actually give a list
00:41:54 sorry but i did actually give a list he did in in my report it's section b of appendix b um would you like to go there or i can just give the reference to the transcript no i don't mind just but i think for me that there are three
00:42:06 but i think for me that there are three complex things very complex things for the transcript we don't need to to go to it it's blarp25020 page seven um and that sets out the
00:42:18 page seven um and that sets out the features
00:42:19 features um do you agree that grenfell could be considered to be a simple building
00:42:26 building or at least that another expert might come to the different to a different view from you do i agree another expert could come to a different view could reasonably come to could
00:42:37 could reasonably come to could reasonably come to you from you well i heard i heard i've heard another expert say that miss menzies said that
00:42:47 under the guidance for complex buildings which we can see on on the right hand side and the pages in the right place
00:42:57 we can see it says um oh no sorry we do need to move up a little bit
00:43:03 at where it's 0.3 for more complex buildings a more detailed record of the fire safety strategy and procedures for operating and maintaining any fire protection measures of the building will be necessary
00:43:15 building will be necessary um so that's the guidance saying what kind of regulation 38 information should be provided for a complex building
00:43:23 building is that right yes it says operation maintaining just as regulation 38 itself they're the two yes yeah
00:43:30 yes yeah um and then it says there further guidance is available in bs558812
00:43:38 bs558812 2004 um but it's right isn't it that that british standard was replaced by bs99
00:43:45 bs99 2008 yes and therefore what you've done is you've gone on to look at that british standard in your report yes as a guide yes as a guide to the kind of information yes
00:43:56 information yes that regulation 38 requires um
00:44:03 now in terms of a complex building agb appendix g itself also tells you a list of things that the records should include um and we can see that they're just
00:44:15 see that they're just um starting at little a and going over to the next page um and then bs99 um you've already mentioned it you'd
00:44:26 um you've already mentioned it you'd agree that's an additional source of guidance about all the things that should be included yeah it gives you more practical information about what to actually do yeah is it is it
00:44:37 what to actually do yeah is it is it building on that list there in adb yes it is yeah okay um
00:44:45 now it's right that bs999 it's not prescriptive there's no requirement that says you must follow it is that right yeah it's a british standard um
00:44:56 yeah it's a british standard um and if grenfell was a simple building and we know you don't agree with that there would be no need to refer or attempt to follow bs99 because it doesn't say it on at point
00:45:07 because it doesn't say it on at point two yes
00:45:08 two yes actually can we just scroll up to the top of the page so i can see the rest of the list of a simple building please sorry excuse me
00:45:21 yeah i mean i think
00:45:26 i find this point kind of a little bit difficult in the sense that even for a simple building if it had very simple matters from a to j under 0.2 if i was trying to work out
00:45:37 under 0.2 if i was trying to work out exactly what to do about that i think the double nine double nine offers just some practical help about what those words mean
00:45:49 about what those words mean as opposed to it's saying don't read the british standard if it's a simple building and only read the british standard if it's complex building so i i'd struggle a little bit with that
00:46:03 so i i'd struggle a little bit with that thank you and just to give the panel and the public an idea of the differences between a simple and a complex building is there a a great difference between
00:46:15 is there a a great difference between the kind of information you should be providing for a simple building and for a complex building
00:46:22 is there a great difference yes are they completely different things that you have to provide or are they all so i i think that in order to operate and maintain a building
00:46:32 building there are certain things that you need to know i don't think and they change i don't think that you can operate i don't think they change because a building is simpler complex it's the
00:46:44 building is simpler complex it's the scale
00:46:45 scale of information that changes rather than the quality of the information that changes and now let's go and look at bs99
00:46:57 now let's go and look at bs99 um and we can you've helpfully extracted bits of it in your report if we go to 11.4.11 on page 78 of your reports that's the
00:47:09 um that's there
00:47:13 and we look at the that quotation there which gives an overview
00:47:19 overview um and i just want to look at the last sentence which says um fire safety procedures and maintenance schedules are developed to the design stage and included in the fire safety manual
00:47:30 manual which is handed over to the person responsible for fire safety of the building
00:47:34 building in order to enable a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment to be carried out and underneath you say the fire safety manual is therefore described as a specific piece of documentation for the building
00:47:46 piece of documentation for the building yeah can you just help us understand we obviously have regulation 38 and the requirement to hand over fire safety information how does the fire safety manual fit in with that
00:48:01 [Music] is it fair to say that it's it's one way of providing the regulation 38 information yeah i think fire safety manual is like a
00:48:14 it's a it's a loose description of something it's not an entity in itself maybe is what you might be asking me it's not a term of yeah it doesn't have
00:48:25 it's not a term of yeah it doesn't have a fire safety manual is the following yes
00:48:28 yes it it's to me it's a concept where the the the important part of regulation 38
00:48:35 38 is that the fire safety information the responsible person needs to do all sorts of different things and we'll be covering that in module three is available for that responsible person
00:48:49 is available for that responsible person so because when they take possession of the building they have to set up a fire risk assessment process they have to set up a maintenance program they have to write an emergency plan
00:49:00 they have to write an emergency plan they need to brief the fire brigade and what measures being provided to them so they need information i wouldn't criticize anyone for you know the visual aspect of the
00:49:14 for you know the visual aspect of the information so it's that the information is provided so if you don't have a nice document that says fire safety manual on the front of it that doesn't matter so long as the
00:49:25 that doesn't matter so long as the actual information that's required has been handed over so if you have a building manual i would expect to see a fire a fire safety manual register or table of contents that refers to the
00:49:38 or table of contents that refers to the correct
00:49:38 correct part of the building manual that contains
00:49:42 contains fire safety information i wouldn't expect someone to reproduce parts of a building manual put it back into another massive set of folders
00:49:52 folders and call it a fire safety manual i seem to actually be losing my voice this afternoon
00:49:57 afternoon sorry excuse me
00:50:01 so once you explain where the fire safety information is in my mind
00:50:09 my mind you are delivering a fire safety manual thank you that's very helpful um annex h of bs999 then sets out what a fire safety manual should contain and again you've
00:50:20 should contain and again you've reproduced that in your report on page 78 or at 11.4.16 so it's a little further down this page
00:50:31 little further down this page and and the text there says the design information forms the basis of an ongoing history document to which additional material is added when the building is occupied and at regular intervals thereafter the designer is largely responsible for
00:50:43 designer is largely responsible for those parts of the fire safety manual that contain design information further information is given at h41 and the fire safety manager is responsible for those parts of the fire safety manual
00:50:54 safety manual that contain operational records the fire safety policy statement and the fire safety document documentation yeah um where a building is being refurbished so not a new build is it expected that a
00:51:06 not a new build is it expected that a new fire safety manual should be produced for that refurbishment or is it expected that an existing fire safety manual will be updated
00:51:16 if there was an accurate existing building manual and you were relying on information in it
00:51:26 you would then add in any additional information that was required but that's a hypothetical isn't it
00:51:35 and it says that a designer is largely responsible for certain parts of the fire safety manual how does that fit with the obligation under regulation 38 for the person
00:51:46 under regulation 38 for the person carrying out the work to provide fire safety information
00:51:56 because there's a gathering exercise of information the designer doesn't disappear as such well in this case the designer is the contractor well i was about to i was actually about
00:52:08 well i was about to i was actually about to say that but i was afraid to open up another can of worms and that yes they were and they are in fact listed as a designer on most of the f10 forms as well
00:52:22 on most of the f10 forms as well so but it is so if you're asking me if it wasn't a design and build project so we're back into hypotheticals again um the designer and the contractor
00:52:35 um the designer and the contractor is putting information together and there will be one party more responsible i don't want to get into that because that's not what happened to grenfell yeah moving on then um
00:52:47 yeah moving on then um at 11.4.21 yeah um which again is on page 79. um we see the beginning of a very long list um
00:52:58 list um of information that's to be included in the um
00:53:01 the um fire safety manual and it goes over onto page 80.
00:53:04 page 80. yeah um and it's right that this is the list that you've relied on as the basis for your analysis yeah um of what happened on grenfell tower yeah and some of it applies and some of it doesn't
00:53:15 some of it doesn't yes and you've made that clear in your reports
00:53:19 reports um and as you said this list provides further practical guidance building on what's in appendix g yeah um as both approved document b and bs 999r
00:53:32 both approved document b and bs 999r guidance rather than regulations themselves is it in principle possible to comply with regulation 38 by some alternative means so by not following this guidance and doing
00:53:43 following this guidance and doing something
00:53:44 something different well as the information needed to operate and maintain a building is the same i i it's kind of a redundant point you know
00:53:56 it's kind of a redundant point you know what order you assemble it in or what it looks like at the end
00:54:02 the information is the information yeah
00:54:08 moving on now to the um the scope of regulation therapy information regulation 38 information um the regulation itself says that the
00:54:20 the regulation itself says that the information provided should be that that assists the responsible person to operate and maintain the building or extension with reasonable safety yeah so the focus there is on information that assists with operation and
00:54:31 that assists with operation and maintenance is that right yes um and also information that enables the responsible person to comply with their duties yeah they're later duties yeah yeah um
00:54:45 do you agree that information which is already in the possession of the responsible person yes um or information that might not assist them in achieving those objectives falls
00:54:56 in achieving those objectives falls outside of the regulation 38 yes i do but again we're that's a hypothetical situation in my opinion and the information under the rro we're
00:55:07 and the information under the rro we're covering in in module three i mean it really is a question of construction isn't it but what i think the witness could help is whether there are matters in the
00:55:20 is whether there are matters in the context in which these regulations have to be uh applied which would help one to understand how they ought to be interpreted i see yes so
00:55:29 yes so um well you say that in in your view um if i've understood your last answer correctly it's not necessary to include in the uh fire safety information yeah
00:55:42 in the uh fire safety information yeah information that is already in the possession of the responsible person yeah so yeah is there any particular reason uh arising out of the the nature of the
00:55:54 arising out of the the nature of the works and so on that leads you to that conclusion or is it in your view just a matter of common sense yeah so if a refurbishment so let's take the lifts of grenfell
00:56:05 so let's take the lifts of grenfell tower they remained so you know there wasn't a new there wasn't a massive lift refurbishment they remained
00:56:14 remained so you would expect the existing building manual for grenfell tower contained
00:56:21 contained the relevant information for the responsible person to carry out their duty
00:56:27 duty so then you wouldn't i wouldn't say ryden should have found that information okay it should exist already ryden are then providing fire safety
00:56:38 ryden are then providing fire safety information for the things they've changed replaced created only give it to the responsible person
00:56:46 person and they can incorporate that with any existing fire safety information that remains valid after the refurbishment so they're going to rely on the lifts or rely
00:56:58 to rely on the lifts or rely on something that existed all along and then they would combine them i can see that but i can also see an argument for saying it ought to be all in one place so therefore that any new provision of
00:57:11 so therefore that any new provision of information or to contain everything yes i i yes i i would expect it to be all in one place
00:57:18 one place again um
00:57:22 it should be in one place and i just i'm just be conscious about straying so we will be talking in the future about
00:57:33 we will be talking in the future about where
00:57:33 where information was stored at the kc tmo
00:57:38 existing information and then this new information coming in and how that was dealt with then yes and i could answer your question
00:57:48 question more appropriately then right yeah we will come after that is that okay yeah um and again just assisting with context um during a refurbishment project for example
00:58:00 example or even a new build as the client and in this case also the responsible person the tmo was receiving yeah fire safety relevant information as the works progressed
00:58:11 the works progressed does that mean that um in practice you wouldn't need to have a compendious set of information handed over at the end
00:58:21 end because for example the tmo already had fire strategy drawings in its possession throughout the works no no i think they're i think as we've been
00:58:33 i think they're i think as we've been talking about a lot in the last day and a half
00:58:36 a half there's an exercise needed at the end of the job
00:58:40 the job remember this the the fire safety information is meant to reflect the as-built condition not things as they go along okay so there's a sweep up exercise at the
00:58:52 so there's a sweep up exercise at the end the drawings and all the relevant fire safety information reflect the as built condition and yes there is a moment when that needs to be handed over it it's not necessarily about the
00:59:05 it it's not necessarily about the incomplete or superseded information as you go and as built is a really important word yeah
00:59:13 yeah yeah um moving on now to um the completion certificate and how regulation 38 feeds in with that um on tuesday the inquiry
00:59:23 inquiry um look with ms menzies at regulation 17 of the building regulations um and it's right that a building control
00:59:31 control body has to satisfy itself that regulation 38 has been complied with before it can issue a completion certificate um i want to explore with you how in your experience a building control
00:59:43 in your experience a building control body goes about satisfying itself yeah and that regulation 38 has been complied with and in your report you um you go to the fire safety procedural guidance
00:59:55 fire safety procedural guidance um which gives guidance about um regulation 38 among other things if we look at page 83 of your report at 12.2.1
01:00:04 12.2.1 [Music]
01:00:07 [Music] um you've provided an extract there and at the bottom it just sets out the legal status of the guide um it says although this guide has no
01:00:19 um it says although this guide has no legal force it's intended that all building control bodies and fire and statement in fire safety enforcement authorities should use the consultation procedures described in the guide as a model for arrangements
01:00:30 in the guide as a model for arrangements when they
01:00:31 when they a model for arrangements they make so that procedures will be similar throughout england and wales um but you have given your opinion and i just want to ask was it your
01:00:43 and i just want to ask was it your understanding at the time of grenfell so 2012 to 2016 that whilst this guidance has no legal force it's nonetheless important guidance to take into account
01:00:57 yes um you've identified a change in the guidance
01:01:02 guidance between the fourth and fifth edition and we can look at that at a table on page 93.
01:01:12 uh and you provided some excerpts there and it's the highlighted text at the bottom you'll see the fourth edition um says that for regulation 38
01:01:23 um says that for regulation 38 information a copy should also be sent to the building control body yeah and on the right hand side that text is no longer there in the fifth edition
01:01:34 edition and it simply says that a written confirmation to the building control body should be sent where regulation 38 information has been provided
01:01:44 provided um now we've heard evidence from mr hoban and mr allen that rbkc had a practice of accepting a verbal assurance that regulation 38 had been complied with yeah um that guidance there doesn't
01:01:57 yeah um that guidance there doesn't mention a verbal insurance being acceptable um no it doesn't um were you aware of this kind of practice in the industry at the time um yes i am i am aware of that practice yes
01:02:09 yes i am i am aware of that practice yes how widespread was it i how can i ask answer a question like that i mean all i can tell you is is that as a fire safety engineer
01:02:21 safety engineer remember we don't run that process we assist an architect or we assist a contractor the last experience i have
01:02:33 a contractor the last experience i have on this matter i was um before the fire i was helping a principal contractor and in that particular circumstance building control um asked the principal
01:02:46 building control um asked the principal contractor to lay the manual out on on a very large table i have to say
01:02:53 say lay all the manuals out and we were they observed other things on site and then they
01:03:00 then they they asked us in our particular capacity on that job if we considered the building manual to contain
01:03:08 contain an adequate quantity of fire safety information and we had to discuss that with them so they did it that way that is my last experience but i'm also aware that that
01:03:19 experience but i'm also aware that that does not happen on on our projects um and on your projects and you may not be able to help us with this did you detect any change in practice
01:03:30 any change in practice as between the the fourth and fifth edition so when the fifth edition came out did you notice building control body stopped asking you we we i would be of the view and we as a you know i would be of the view and
01:03:41 as a you know i would be of the view and in my in the work that i've been doing is that regulation 38 hasn't really had a huge priority for some time
01:03:58 a huge priority for some time and you've concluded in your um report and we can look at that at 12.5.18 on page 95.
01:04:07 page 95. um your view is that the current guidance doesn't enable a local authority to issue a compliant completion certificate in accordance with regulation 17. why do you say that yeah i feel
01:04:19 you say that yeah i feel i i i feel that that change and the procedural guidance where you go from you know being expected to actually check something and the professional design team having to go
01:04:31 design team having to go to make an effort to display relevant fire safety information and share it to simply accepting a verbal confirmation is a reduction in standard
01:04:42 confirmation is a reduction in standard i don't know how an authority can cope with that
01:04:45 with that i mean my own experience of trying to you know that handover is is a really fraught complex time trying to finish the construction people
01:04:56 trying to finish the construction people want to finish up on the job trying to gather all that information it's it's very very difficult the everybody industry in the industry is aware of how difficult it is
01:05:07 is aware of how difficult it is so for an authority to just have to accept a verbal assurance it's a very
01:05:18 light way of dealing with such an important transfer of information to the person who now has to start running that building
01:05:31 moving on now i'm going to ask you some questions about the primary refurbishment itself and what what happened um with the building manual um now just to establish um some parameters
01:05:43 now just to establish um some parameters we know your view is that regulation 38 applied to the primary refurbishment we've
01:05:47 we've we've been through that already and we've also heard that your view as ryden was the person carrying out the work um you've also set out in your report at page 183
01:06:00 at page 183 um some of ryden's contractual responsibilities um so we see there at 16.2.5 ryden had a responsibility in its
01:06:13 ryden had a responsibility in its contract to comply with statutory requirements and to obtain statutory consents
01:06:17 consents and then you've also referred at 16.2 point 13 which is over the page yeah um to ryden's obligation to produce a building manual
01:06:29 building manual and again just so we're clear and we've touched on this briefly already um the building manual and the reason why we're talking about the building manual today is because that is the means by which
01:06:40 means by which regulation 38 information was passed or could at least in principle have been exactly that was the the vehicle or the process where fire safety information could have been
01:06:51 safety information could have been passed and and that that's how it happens on the projects that i work on and does anybody actually identify the contents of the fire safety
01:07:03 contents of the fire safety information so in in the work that i have done
01:07:08 have done i have been asked to produce a document it's almost like an index setting out what's required and on the project which party should provide the information
01:07:20 provide the information okay and i call that a fire safety manual index well no what i was really thinking was it was your evidence about um verbal assurances
01:07:31 evidence about um verbal assurances oh yeah that may start in my mind working i mean if you only have a verbal assurance yeah you have no
01:07:40 have no evidence of what that anything's been handed over and almost importantly you have no idea even if you accept the insurance what has been handed over do you i couldn't agree with you more that's
01:07:51 i couldn't agree with you more that's exactly the situation that the building control officer finds themselves in
01:08:00 okay yeah now if if you give the fire safety information as part of the building manual yeah within the building yeah is it normal to identify which
01:08:12 yeah is it normal to identify which parts of the building manual are considered to provide the fire safety information yes that's that's yes that is what
01:08:25 yes that's that's yes that is what we i we do yeah thank you and you've also mentioned that in your experience there are some building control bodies who would sit down and ask to see bits of the
01:08:37 down and ask to see bits of the building manufacturing yeah they want to physically because i mean it's exactly as
01:08:41 as the chairman has just said it's it's almost like it doesn't even exist you just
01:08:46 just ask a question you get an answer so the last project i did they they wanted to see
01:08:53 to see that it existed and they wanted assurances that parts of the manual contained the relevant fire safety information
01:09:07 the relevant fire safety information and at 16.2.20 of your report which is on page 185
01:09:15 you've said um you also note that kctmo were responsible as a client to ensure that their appointed contractor was fulfilling their required duties
01:09:24 duties and that they appointed artelia as their agent
01:09:28 agent in the context of regulation 38 information when you say kctmo was responsible to ensure ryden was fulfilling their duties what do you mean
01:09:36 mean well i think what i was trying to say is sometimes
01:09:41 sometimes um i've been asked by an organization to check the building manual they're going to receive
01:09:53 to receive to make sure when it comes to the fire safety information that it's there and accurate
01:10:01 so because again it's a bit it's a bit like the building control officer just accepting you know some organizations
01:10:12 you know some organizations will want some assurance from another party
01:10:17 party that the building manual
01:10:21 is complete and accurate because as i've said it's
01:10:25 said it's it's very very frantic towards the end of a project simple or complex and just to draw out a contrast to cdm which we'll come to um under cdm the
01:10:37 which we'll come to um under cdm the client actually has a regulatory obligation to check yeah agreed
01:10:43 agreed there's no equivalent obligation under regulation 38 no for the responsible person to do any checking no but as we've heard from you some
01:10:50 some some do choose to do that yeah so it's an assurance rather than a duty yes
01:10:57 um in your experience would a a client um or responsible person such as the tmo have the skills and expertise to be able to police
01:11:05 to police what a contractor have provided them in my experience in my experience should they should they or did they sorry did they did they police ryden
01:11:17 sorry did they did they police ryden so in principle a client in the position of the tmo would they be equipped to look at the information provided and actually say well that's not right and
01:11:29 say well that's not right and i want this done differently okay um
01:11:34 well the t the k ctmo had a have a lot of properties had a lot of
01:11:43 operating and maintaining duties already before this refurbishment
01:11:50 so that branch of kctmo could be expected to know what they needed because they were already doing it yes
01:12:08 doing it yes okay that answers the question um moving on to artelia um you've referred uh to their contract with the tmo yeah um in particular we can see it up
01:12:19 yeah um in particular we can see it up on screen you've um highlighted two of their obligations 1.5.9 and 1.5.10 yeah and what do you say the role of an employer's agent was well i i explained i kind of explained
01:12:32 well i i explained i kind of explained that
01:12:33 that later in my report as well that again my experience is when the building manual is being handed over to a client
01:12:47 is being handed over to a client the employer's agent might check it for a completeness may check that it contained what the contract asked
01:12:58 contract asked it to contain because the contract as i read it technically set out a list of information
01:13:11 set out a list of information that was expected in each part it was quite comprehensive and helpful actually in terms of what should go into each part of the building manual um
01:13:22 into each part of the building manual um we can see that and we can see your view at 16.3.61
01:13:30 which is sorry i should give you a page reference that's on page 194
01:13:36 um and you say there i acknowledge an employer's agent would not directly review the technical content of all parts of the building manual yeah but in your experience as a practicing fire engineer
01:13:47 practicing fire engineer um given that they're signing the practical completion certificate you'd expect them to satisfy themselves that o manuals were in place complete and technically approved approved by the relevant consultants yeah because um
01:13:58 yeah because um no exactly because the fear remember about handing over um that certificate is everyone kind of packing up and leaving before the information has been gathered
01:14:13 before the information has been gathered so there you know my experience is as you do as much as possible before this certificate is issued just to make sure all the companies take the time to put the information together
01:14:25 time to put the information together um and in broad terms it's dealt with in in your report did you see evidence of that checking process taking place by artelia on this project
01:14:38 i was surprised to read you know and i i again i've got the reference in the report at some point they said something like that's not part of our
01:14:50 something like that's not part of our sorry 16.3.62 there's an email which oh yes
01:14:54 yes we won't be reviewing the oven manual yeah no sorry excuse me yeah you know i was a bit surprised to read that i mean i'm not making a big massive point about this but i was surprised to read that because my experience is is that you
01:15:07 because my experience is is that you know
01:15:07 know the certificate is issued obviously to do with the state of the construction but also that the information is in good shape and i have experience
01:15:20 is in good shape and i have experience of
01:15:21 of giving a view for example that the information is complete enough that the missing pieces can be called a you know a minor defect or that the information missing is a major defect
01:15:33 information missing is a major defect and we strongly recommend the certificate isn't issued and they really get everyone to focus on putting that information together
01:15:42 together now we knew that ryden subcontracted the preparation of the o manual to a company called all group holdings yes how common is it for contractors to subcontract the preparation of a building manual yeah i have i have
01:15:54 building manual yeah i have i have observed that happening yes and i don't have any
01:15:57 have any you know that that's absolutely fine in my mind um how can the subcontracted company know enough about the project to be able to compile fire safety information well typically they will have to be
01:16:08 well typically they will have to be around for a while and have to spend time understanding what each party is doing
01:16:15 doing and they will have a very my experience is you know very specific detailed list of things
01:16:21 of things that they will have worked on with the principal contractor to compile and then their job is hunting people down quite frankly yeah um and in your experience do companies
01:16:32 companies that are subcontracted to do this kind of work do they advise on regulation 38 do they tell the contractor what needs to be included no no so that's for the contractor the
01:16:43 no no so that's for the contractor the contractor should know already in your view the person the person who's applied um the person who's paid to get the
01:16:54 the person who's paid to get the completion certificate needs to understand that who's paying the fee or yeah um have you seen any evidence that all group holdings were specifically
01:17:05 all group holdings were specifically asked to consider or compile fire safety information
01:17:13 so do you see in the context of regulation 38 no but were they asked to get information about fire safety systems yes
01:17:27 you've noted in your report that the instruction to proceed to all group holdings came on the 11th of march 2016 and at the time that was four weeks before scheduled completion of the works although
01:17:37 although completion did happen later in your experience was that sufficient time to compile a building manual um for a project such as grenfell i think that's a very short period of time
01:17:50 moving on now to your analysis of the building manual um you've been provided with two versions of the building manual and one provided with ryden that you received in 2017 and then one provided
01:18:01 received in 2017 and then one provided by the tmo that you received in 2020 and it's right that your report now provides an in-depth analysis of the building manual provided to you in february 2020 so that's the one from
01:18:13 in february 2020 so that's the one from the tmo
01:18:14 the tmo yes
01:18:18 and we've already um established that the grenfell m manual does not include a self-contained package of information that purports to be regulation 38 information does it
01:18:30 to be regulation 38 information does it yes and there's no index as you said identifying where the fire safety information is no you've carried out um
01:18:41 no you've carried out um a detailed analysis of the manual in sections 1819 um appendix bn section 20 of your report um and is it right you've done that because you've looked to see
01:18:53 because you've looked to see if notwithstanding that there's no index the manual itself does in fact contain yeah the relevant pharisees yes i do yeah
01:19:02 yeah i just want to highlight some of your key conclusions arising out of that analysis
01:19:06 analysis yeah um and i've got a few specific questions for you along the way um if you go to page two three three of your reports
01:19:17 um and it's
01:19:21 and 19.2.29 you point out that the manual
01:19:25 manual did not contain an as-built fire safety strategy and did not include x-over's outline fire safety strategy um we know that ixova's ofss v
01:19:36 um we know that ixova's ofss v version 3 had already been issued to the tmo
01:19:39 tmo um in those circumstances did it need to be
01:19:43 be in the o m manual a fire strategy that reflected the as-built condition needed to be in the building manual and it was not um and if it if it had been included
01:19:56 um and if it if it had been included was the outline fire safety strategy that ixova drafted adequate to satisfy um the requirements of regulation 38 or the guidance in bs99 no
01:20:09 or the guidance in bs99 no um at 19.2.9 which is on page 235
01:20:17 um you say that the information about active and passive fire protection measures is spread across five different parts of the manual containing 2 000 documents some of which are substantial in length
01:20:28 some of which are substantial in length is that right yes um and in the next paragraph um you identify that there are sections of the building manual that are blank and contain new information that's correct is that does that include
01:20:40 that's correct is that does that include sections where fire safety information ought to have been provided i i'd have to i've no so i did that summary table in the appendix
01:20:49 appendix just showing where the empty files were i don't know that off by heart now we can go and go to the appendix um in a moment um
01:21:00 um in a moment um at 19.2.13 you say that another issue is that a comprehensive o m manual is not provided for all fire safety systems yeah meaning that the responsible person is not provided with the necessary fire
01:21:12 is not provided with the necessary fire yeah safety information to fulfill their duties
01:21:15 duties and at 19.2.14 you say there are parts of the
01:21:19 of the building manual which contain what appears to be sufficient information but when i interrogated the fire safety information significant issues emerged yeah and you've used um the
01:21:30 yeah and you've used um the external wall information to provide a more detailed example of this in section 20 which we'll come on to in a second
01:21:38 second would it be fair to say as a way of summarizing all of that that the building manual is not complete with regards to fire safety information yes to the extent that information is present it's difficult to locate within
01:21:49 present it's difficult to locate within the manual yes and even where there is some information it's often inadequate to enable the responsible person to discharge their duties yes anything else by way of summary no that encapsulates
01:22:01 by way of summary no that encapsulates it
01:22:02 it um at paragraph 19.2.15 you go on to say that that's not unusual compared with your own professional experience over many years yeah
01:22:14 over many years yeah how does the refurbishment o m manual compare
01:22:17 compare with building manuals that you've seen for projects similar is it of a piece or is it substantially better substantially worse i think it's as bad as the bad manuals
01:22:28 i think it's as bad as the bad manuals i've reviewed in my life
01:22:32 but there are there are you know just
01:22:36 it's this thing you know i've also worked with lots of people who've tried to do their best as well in the last 23 years
01:22:43 years and so i've also seen building manuals that were very clear and allowed me to make appropriate decision making appropriate decisions in in a building
01:22:54 appropriate decisions in in a building when i needed to do some work
01:22:58 um now looking uh briefly at the external wall information yeah and you've analyzed that in section 20 of your report um and if we just go to your
01:23:09 your your view 20.6.1 which is on page 285
01:23:18 um you say there and on the basis of the evidence you've presented you concluded that the person carrying out the work did give some fire safety information to the responsible
01:23:29 safety information to the responsible person
01:23:29 person but that information could not assist the responsible person to operate and maintain the building with reasonable safety
01:23:37 and in terms of of the facade that's because
01:23:40 because as you say in the next paragraph um you've shown that the information provided did not describe or provide information about the performance of each as installed component yes um and you also know that most most
01:23:52 um and you also know that most most substantially um it's because the materials themselves chosen were not compliant with the requirements of document b yes um my question is is
01:24:03 of document b yes um my question is is this
01:24:03 this a failure not so much a regulation 38 failure but more of a fundamental failure
01:24:08 failure and to comply with b4 of the building regulations yeah so i think [Music]
01:24:15 [Music] the information so when
01:24:22 so when when a company is you know submitting their information to the building manual so
01:24:28 so we would have to do that in arab it's almost like the last time sometimes you have to check that you know the advice was accurate the information reflects the advice
01:24:40 the information reflects the advice and that at all complies then say with the fire
01:24:43 the fire safety objective set so it's an important
01:24:46 important last set of checks really before you hand over
01:24:50 hand over a building
01:24:54 and so that was my next question is um given the as built condition of the facade was yeah it was yes um and that regulation 38
01:25:05 yes um and that regulation 38 information could only reflect what was as built yes if the o manual had sort of clearly identified all of that should it have proven
01:25:15 proven prompted any review of the design even at that late stage
01:25:24 so okay so i think you're asking me to contemplate when harley were assembling their part of the building manual did they check each component
01:25:37 check each component of the a final fire strategy that contained the performance criteria and do a final check that the certs and the information they had aligned with those performance
01:25:49 aligned with those performance requirements yes did that check but first of all that couldn't happen because that wasn't written down anywhere and then obviously i don't know what
01:26:00 and then obviously i don't know what harley did when they put their information together and but as we've explored given that you could only present as built information
01:26:13 built information um is it right that these are failures to comply with regulation 38 oh do you mean that you're allowed to provide as-built information that's wrong and you still have discharged your duty under regulation 38
01:26:25 discharged your duty under regulation 38 is that what you're asking me well yeah how does how does that work in circumstances where you have a non-compliance well you're not meant to have a non you're not meant to hand over a non-compliant building in the first place
01:26:36 place and does the regulation 38 process provide any additional check or layer of protection against that well you might you might hope that it would
01:26:54 um actually can i just add something to that
01:26:57 that you know i i think i addressed this in this report you know the tmo were asked about the cladding by the fire brigade weren't they
01:27:06 they in that latter few months or weeks before the fire and the chairman was asking me about how the tmo you know if you've existing information and new
01:27:18 if you've existing information and new information i mean from what i can see the evidence i have
01:27:23 i have is they didn't seem to go to any building manual when that question was asked
01:27:29 asked and i think that's another important point to make so when you refer to the letter from the lfb that's a letter that was sent not just to the tmo but it was asking after latino house yeah for details yeah and that that you
01:27:42 yeah for details yeah and that that you know
01:27:43 know because i think sometimes people go why does this matter well that was a really good example of where you would open up the building manual and again check the information you have
01:27:54 and again check the information you have check that it is all accurate and compliant and have another opportunity to work out what that might all mean having been asked um
01:28:06 having been asked um miss gregor how are we getting on i'm thinking it's time we had breaks in i was just thinking that myself um we have come
01:28:13 have come to the end of uh regulation 38 actually so now we're here very good time then isn't it yeah good good
01:28:20 good right yes exactly thank you yes take a short break thank you i'll pause three please yes no talking when you're out i've actually thank you very much
01:28:36 oneplus 3 please thank you
01:45:03 [Applause]
01:45:07 all right would you ask dr len to come back in please
01:45:22 all right dr lane now then maybe the last lap hopefully or at least the penultimate problem yeah one mini topic and then the last
01:45:31 last lap
01:45:34 we finished regulation 38 but in your regulation 38 report you have also looked at the building control process in paragraph 14 in sections 14 and 15.
01:45:45 and 15. and we've not been through that um with you today but there's just one point i'd like to pick up um which is about the consultation with the fire authority and so on page 149 of that report
01:45:57 and so on page 149 of that report which is the blarp221 um at 15.5.22 um you talk about the
01:46:10 um you talk about the consultation with the fire authority and you say it's not clear to you why our bkc
01:46:16 bkc and the fire authority considered the terms of the consultation to be limited to matters to b1 and b5 and then you say it's not your experience of how far strategies have been dealt with yeah and i just want to ask you about um
01:46:28 yeah and i just want to ask you about um your experience and can you tell us what your experience has been
01:46:33 has been yeah so as i hope this is my very latest version
01:46:38 version because also i've written here um lindsey seal produced a second witness statement
01:46:46 statement and clarified the situation regarding a more encompassing need to consider
01:46:54 consider all the parts together and that is my experience when i've been asked to participate in such consultations and so just to summarize um
01:47:05 summarize um missile's evidence and uh we took miss menzies to it yes um because she hadn't um updated her report
01:47:12 report yeah inspecting officers are more likely to offer observations in relation to b1 and b5 but there's no restriction or limitation exactly on what they shouldn't do consider yes she thinks it's more likely
01:47:23 consider yes she thinks it's more likely that the fire engineering group would comment on b4 rather than local officers understood um and she said that in the context of grenfell as no problem with
01:47:34 context of grenfell as no problem with b4 had been flagged in the consultation because of what was said in the xova outline fire safety strategy that you've been looking at for the last two days there would be no
01:47:45 for the last two days there would be no reason for lf epa to comment on that aspect of the design understood and okay sorry and does that reflect your experience that if a problem with the design is not specifically flagged
01:47:56 design is not specifically flagged yeah um then they won't comment on it well i i don't know that i'd use word problem but so we talked a lot about the fire strategy and this issue of writing down
01:48:07 strategy and this issue of writing down what's maybe a deviation or not that's another reason why it's so important so i have had really detailed discussions with the fire engineering group at
01:48:18 fire engineering group at lfb on the subject of b4 because of some very specific reasons on a project i may be working and i draw to everybody's attention and then we
01:48:29 to everybody's attention and then we enter into technical conversations about it
01:48:32 it that's why a fire strategy needs to be clear
01:48:35 clear on complex issues you know or limits particularly when you're working on an existing building and you're restricted sometimes and what you can achieve thank
01:48:46 sometimes and what you can achieve thank you
01:48:47 you um moving on then to cdn um and that's in your other report which is blarp25016 um and we're going to start this topic
01:49:00 um and we're going to start this topic by looking at an overview of how the cdm regulations work with respect to the health and safety file okay um so you sat out the purpose of the cdm regulations in 1.1.3 of your
01:49:12 the cdm regulations in 1.1.3 of your report which is on page six
01:49:19 uh and you see there it's as described in the regulations they're intended to protect persons from health and safety risks arising from construction work through this establishment of a systematic framework for management of
01:49:31 systematic framework for management of those risks and in your experience are they most relevant
01:49:37 relevant to um health and safety and welfare during construction projects or do they have an application after
01:49:45 after construction projects are finished so is it just to focus on construction works while they're happening it uh
01:50:00 they protect people during construction and sorry i'm just struggling a little bit with the question they protect people during construction do you mean when there's no construction
01:50:12 do you mean when there's no construction or
01:50:12 or so you obviously have a system where you have
01:50:16 have construction works as they're happening so while building work is going on yes are they limited to that particular period
01:50:23 period when building work is going on or do they have relevance outside of that period so when there's no building work going on in an existing building yes uh no but you you know
01:50:36 uh no but you you know i just wanted to clarify what their what their scope is okay um in section two of your report which starts on page 11 um you give an overview of the history
01:50:47 um you give an overview of the history of the cdm regulations um and this is relevant because your report looks at earlier works as well yeah um and just to summarize and you can tell me if i've got this right the first cdm regulations
01:50:59 got this right the first cdm regulations were the cdm regulations 1997. i think that might be a typo that should be 1995. um [Music]
01:51:08 [Music] 1994. they were replaced by the cdm regulations 2007. yes and this is where we first see a reference to a health and safety file is in those 2007 regulations
01:51:23 and if you need um to refresh your memory it's at 2.13 of your report i'm just frantically trying to read the regulations in my mind from before 2007.
01:51:34 regulations in my mind from before 2007. and do you want to do you want to go to page 11 of your report yes please do you think we need to spend too much time on the history of history no we don't um it's just to outline the point is
01:51:44 point is um and dr lincoln confirmed that for the primary refurbishment we started with the 2007 regulations applying yes and then there was a transitional period and the 2015 regulations applied
01:51:57 and the 2015 regulations applied yes before construction works finished yes
01:52:03 yes the different versions of the cdm regulations there are approved codes of practice
01:52:07 practice yes um for the 2007 regulations there was
01:52:11 was one approved code of practice um and you've provided an excerpt from that on page 15 of your report at 2.4.6 and this is just to understand the
01:52:23 and this is just to understand the status of an approved code of practice and the second paragraph in italics there says it has a special legal status if you're prosecuted for breach of health and safety law and it is proved
01:52:34 health and safety law and it is proved that you do not follow the relevant provisions of the code you will need to show that you've complied with the law in some other way or a court will find you a fault yeah and was that your understanding at the time they had a special
01:52:45 the time they had a special status yeah that's my understanding um as explained there and for the 2015 regulations um if we go to page 16 there was
01:52:56 um if we go to page 16 there was a health and safety executive guidance document so not an approved code of practice
01:53:01 practice called managing health and safety and construction and at 2.4.11 and you've quoted there from its explanation of its legal status it says
01:53:14 explanation of its legal status it says it's issued by the health and safety executive and following the guidance is not compulsory unless specifically stated
01:53:19 stated you're free to take other action but if you do not follow the guidance you will normally be doing enough to comply with the law health and safety inspectors seek to secure compliance with the law and may refer to this guidance
01:53:30 and may refer to this guidance yeah um and you said elsewhere in your report that there was an attention from the hse to produce an approved code of practice but that didn't happen yes in your mind at the time
01:53:41 time is there a difference between the approved code of practice and this guidance in terms of how you should use it and whether you should follow it well so i would reflect on what the hse
01:53:53 well so i would reflect on what the hse themselves say and in the absence of any other form of guidance i would still be quite focused on their
01:54:05 i would still be quite focused on their non-acup publication waiting for the acop to arrive
01:54:14 at paragraph 2.4.16 so on the same page just a bit further down
01:54:21 down you've said that in your report the approach you've taken yeah is if the duties set out in the cdm regulations approved codes of practice or in the 2015 guidance document have not been
01:54:33 2015 guidance document have not been discharged you will treat that as a breach of the cdm regulations yeah and again can you just explain why you've taken that approach
01:54:48 i wanted to be clear the basis of my analysis
01:54:53 analysis and the opinion the technical opinions i gave in my report
01:54:59 um is it your understanding that where somebody hasn't complied with the guidance or an approved code of practice it is in theory possible to demonstrate compliance by another meetings if they've demonstrated compliance by
01:55:11 if they've demonstrated compliance by another means yes um and with a health and safety file how relevant is that alternative route to compliance does it arise in practice i honestly don't even understand the concept of an alternative
01:55:22 understand the concept of an alternative route of compliance when it comes to a health and safety file i don't even know what that would be that's helpful thank you yeah um
01:55:33 that's helpful thank you yeah um and have you seen any suggestion in the evidence um that you've reviewed that an alternative route to compliance was contemplated by those working at grenfell
01:55:41 grenfell no can we can i just say something so the the a carp and the regulations are quite simple in a way with very simple
01:55:51 simple lists of things you need to provide in a health and safety file and it's literally about putting them into a place together i i i don't know what other alternative
01:56:05 i i i don't know what other alternative there could be so i don't want us to over complicate
01:56:11 putting information into a file it's following a list so i probably just sounded very rude there i didn't mean to sound rude you know so i can't get into a big alternative compliance
01:56:23 alternative compliance like we might about approved document b where there are other british standards with some very complex numerical analysis for example to comply a health and safety file again is just
01:56:34 a health and safety file again is just about
01:56:35 about relevant information being gathered i hope that's okay yeah that's very helpful thank you um so in your report you're focusing on the parts of cdm regulations that deal with
01:56:47 parts of cdm regulations that deal with information related to fire safety so that's what you've been looking at in your report you've been looking at reconstruction information the construction you've mentioned the construction phase plan but not looked at that in depth
01:56:58 plan but not looked at that in depth and then you've looked in depth at the health and safety yeah so what you give at the end of the project um and just for reference if we go to page 13
01:57:09 just for reference if we go to page 13 um of your reports
01:57:14 there you explain what these different things are and we don't need to look at them in any great detail but just to know that there are three sets of information contemplated by the cdm regulations pre-construction information a
01:57:26 pre-construction information a construction phase plan and then over the page
01:57:28 the page you've explained what a health and safety file is yeah and in terms of terminology again for clarity i just want to run through a few key terms and have you um help identify
01:57:40 key terms and have you um help identify what they are um a number of duties in the cdm regulations both 2007 and 2015 apply to the client yes um what is the client under cdm
01:57:54 so who is who is the client in general well do you will you put up what the cdm
01:58:02 date the cdm regulations provide a definition yes we can do that yes please
01:58:09 find the reference
01:58:32 so i'm just trying to we can come back okay
01:58:35 okay do you think if we scroll down we'll find it in this section yeah because all the duty holders under the cdm have it
01:58:42 it have a definition so i don't i prefer just not to paraphrase and get it wrong yes yeah i think it will be in section two of your report um we'll keep yeah someone will find it
01:58:54 um we'll keep yeah someone will find it for me
01:58:55 for me yeah um i'll skip over then that kind of key
01:58:59 key terminology yeah um
01:59:04 going on then to um the requirements of oh here we go it's um if we go to inq3011316 and page two these are the cdm
01:59:17 and page two these are the cdm regulations themselves um and you'll see there it says client is a
01:59:23 is a a person for whom a project is carried out yes
01:59:27 out yes and for grenfell for the primary refurbishment who was the client the kctmo as i understand things um we also have um it won't be in the 2015 regulations
01:59:41 um it won't be in the 2015 regulations but there's something yeah in the 2007 regulations known as a cdm coordinator yes so yes we will look specifically at their duties relating to the health and safety file but who was that on
01:59:53 and safety file but who was that on grenfell
01:59:54 grenfell who held that rule it was artelier ortalia sorry yep um and if we go to page i think it'll be page three of this document
02:00:06 um you'll see there's a principal contractor it'll be over on the next page page four principal contractor just at the top means contractor appointed to perform
02:00:18 means contractor appointed to perform the specified duties in regulations 12 to 14. yeah um and again on grenfell who was the principal contractor ryden and in 2015 um the role of cdm coordinator ceased to
02:00:31 um the role of cdm coordinator ceased to exist
02:00:32 exist and there became something known as a principal designer and again just to summarize we know and it set out in your report in detail that ultimately the tmo took on that role of yes they did designer yes um
02:00:50 and you've already been through with ms grange earlier today about the idea of a designer under the cdrm regulations and you've explained um who may or may not have that role yeah um going on then to
02:01:03 have that role yeah um going on then to the
02:01:03 the health and safety file itself can you just summarize what the purpose of a health and safety file is so why do we have health and safety files
02:01:15 so when you go to do other work in the building
02:01:19 building you can safely do so and there's different types of work that you might need to do so for so i'll just talk about my
02:01:27 about my own experience if that's okay so if i'm sending a team of people to do an existing building inspection and we will need the health and safety file
02:01:38 file to understand for example if or where the asbestos is located and we would read about that in the health and safety file when we're preparing our own risk assessment to attend site
02:01:49 assessment to attend site other parties if they're doing minor or major works need to understand where different components of the building are located including fire
02:02:01 are located including fire safety features so that they can either rely on them or not disturb them when they're doing the work
02:02:11 um and you've explained in your reports i'll just give the reference for the transcript um at 4.3.2 to 12 on page 31. um you've explained that cdm 2007
02:02:22 that cdm 2007 required preparation of a health and safety file where a project is notifiable yes and that has a specific concept in the regulations yes and the grenfell was a notifiable project so a health and safety file was
02:02:34 project so a health and safety file was required
02:02:35 required yes and it was the duty of the cdm coordinator to produce that health and safety file and to liaise with the principal contractor regarding the contents of the file and the information that the principal contractor needs to
02:02:46 that the principal contractor needs to provide yes and if there's no health and safety file at the start of a project the cdm regulations required the cdm coordinator to prepare one to start preparing one yes
02:02:59 preparing one yes and the client designer and contractor all have duties under um cdm to provide the cdm coordinator with
02:03:06 with relevant information yes so they all they work together to exactly each duty holder has to play their relevant part and it that's defined
02:03:14 defined in the regulations um and then we know that after 2007 cdm 2015 comes in and has a transitional
02:03:25 cdm 2015 comes in and has a transitional provisions in place yes um
02:03:29 yes um and again just some basic structural points we all understand yeah um under those regulations the cdm coordinator remained in position until a principal designer was appointed or the
02:03:40 principal designer was appointed or the project came to an end yes um and there's a duty on the client and this is again for the transcript in your report on page 42 there's a duty on the client to appoint
02:03:51 there's a duty on the client to appoint a principal designer before october 6 2015 and if they fail to make that appointment then the client themselves becomes the principal designer yes um
02:04:03 the principal designer yes um and at 5.5.17 of your report which is again on page 42 um there were duties on the cdm coordinator during that period including
02:04:18 coordinator during that period including to liaise with the principal contractor over the contents of the health and safety file and if there was no health and safety file then to prepare it so even during that transitional period there was an obligation on the cdm coordinator before they stopped doing
02:04:31 coordinator before they stopped doing yes before they stopped being exactly yes getting everything ready yes great um now looking at the contents of a health and safety file
02:04:42 and safety file um you've identified in your report um in section 5.7 the the guidance from the health and safety executive about what it should
02:04:53 safety executive about what it should contain hasn't changed from 1994 not really no no um and if we go to pages um page 48 of your report please
02:05:06 um page 48 of your report please at 5.7.16 you set out if we just pause with the page zoomed out like that that's the big list of information that you need to have in your health and safety file
02:05:17 safety file yeah the smart yeah yeah and then at 5.7.16 if we go over the page the most relevant requirements to fire safety
02:05:28 safety are be any hazards that have not been eliminated through the design and construction processes and how they've been addressed yeah the nature location and markings of significant services including underground cables gas supply
02:05:39 including underground cables gas supply equipment firefighting services yeah and information and as built drawings of the building it's plant and equipment
02:05:46 equipment yeah and those are the the features of a health and safety file that you focused on in your analysis yes um can you briefly explain um how the obligation to produce
02:05:59 explain um how the obligation to produce a health and safety file ties in with the obligations we've just been looking at under regulation 13. so is there an overlap in the kind of information that you should be providing in in
02:06:10 that you should be providing in in regulation 13 sorry 38 i misspoke um overlap with the duties of exactly 38. how does the health and safety file yeah fit with regulation 38 if at all
02:06:23 yeah fit with regulation 38 if at all well well it doesn't there are two so there are two different things they both need some form
02:06:30 form of fire safety information
02:06:35 um and if we just go to page eight of your report you set this out in a little bit more detail at 1.2.9 you say both the fire safety
02:06:46 at 1.2.9 you say both the fire safety manual that we've been talking about and the health and safety final should have been kept available yes um and at 1.2.10 bs999 gives a bit of guidance and says depending on some circumstances
02:06:59 depending on some circumstances it might the fire safety manual might need to be separate yeah um from the safety plan required by the construction design and management regulations 2007. yeah in which case the information from
02:07:11 yeah in which case the information from this should be duplicated in the farsi yeah
02:07:13 yeah i think it means physically separate for whatever reason in a company yeah and then we've got 1.2.11 so just zoom down the page a little bit yeah the approve code of practice
02:07:26 yeah the approve code of practice again talks about the relationship between the two and it says here yeah about the health and safety file it can be combined with the building regulations logbook or a maintenance manual providing it doesn't result in the health and safety
02:07:37 doesn't result in the health and safety information being lost or buried yeah exactly so it's as we spoke about in regulation 38 it's not about having all you know whole bundles of the same
02:07:48 you know whole bundles of the same information with different titles you can have one source and just clearly reference it the the health and safety file my by my experience and that's why i wrote that
02:08:00 experience and that's why i wrote that specifically in my cv tends to be a separate formal part of the building manual and they are there together
02:08:11 there together i'm now going to move on and look at what happened during the grenfell primary refurbishment and you deal with that in chapter 9 of your report
02:08:19 we probably don't need to go there but um to understand how the whole story works you need to first look back at what happened before the primary refurbishment
02:08:30 the primary refurbishment to the previous set of works which was the fire door replacement wire yes and what we know when it set out on page 78 of your report it is that there was no health and safety file for that set of works
02:08:41 file for that set of works there was no health and safety file for grenfell tower yeah not for that sort of work for grenfell tower as at the time of the primary refurbishment there was no health and safety fire exactly and that triggered
02:08:53 exactly and that triggered the requirement for the cdm coordinator yeah
02:08:57 yeah to prepare one because none existed yeah so it was required to exist it didn't exist and so at the primary refurbishment now there was a duty to commence that
02:09:10 now there was a duty to commence that process
02:09:12 process um and you said at 9.7.4 on page 105 of your report that artelia noted that in their pre-construction information that's correct
02:09:22 correct and said there was no existing health and safety file yes um should that have raised any alarm bells with them at the time
02:09:28 time should that have concerned artelia that there wasn't one or was that a relatively common occurrence well but but i think they were very they were very clear about that there was what none and then
02:09:39 about that there was what none and then they set out they did set out the contents of one in your experience was it common for health and safety files to be absent
02:09:52 for health and safety files to be absent at this time so in 2012 was it was that common across the industry i i have i have no idea about the whole
02:10:03 i have i have no idea about the whole industry
02:10:04 industry and health and safety files um have you ever come on to a project where there's been no health and safety i i have i have been asked to send staff
02:10:15 i i have i have been asked to send staff to buildings with no health and safety file and then i have to obtain the information a different way so it is safe for them to enter
02:10:32 um turning to the relevant guidance you've set out a quote from the approved code of practice on page 106 of your report so that's 9.7.14
02:10:43 report so that's 9.7.14 and it's the the text in bold it says for this to happen cdm coordinators need to make appropriate arrangements at the beginning of the project to collect and compile the information that is likely
02:10:54 compile the information that is likely to be needed yeah um for the file as work progresses so
02:10:57 so um in in layman's terms they need to get started on a health and safety file as soon as they're appointed yes um at 9.7.17
02:11:09 um at 9.7.17 uh which is a little further down that page you quote from regulation 22 oh no sorry it's the next paragraph um you say
02:11:18 you say that the the approved code of practice makes it clear that kc tiemou's client should make sure that the cdm coordinator compiles the file yes
02:11:27 file yes um
02:11:31 is there evidence of artelia taking steps to compile the file at the outset of their appointment not that i could find in the evidence was there a file in place at the time the regulations changed in 2015
02:11:43 the regulations changed in 2015 not that i could find in the evidence should there have been a file in place at this stage or was it acceptable to wait until completion to finalize it
02:11:57 the my understanding of the six-month transition transitional arrangements arrangements was actually to stop that from occurring so instead
02:12:10 to stop that from occurring so instead of having one regulation on a friday jumping straight to the next regulation on a monday and the disrupt you know the complexity that would cause on a project the hse if you if you brought brought in
02:12:24 the hse if you if you brought brought in the six-month transition to allow that preparation so so it was the idea that you would have
02:12:31 have during this six-month period if you didn't have a health and safety you had time to prepare yes you had time to prepare because the duty holders were chained the duty holder definitions were changing and that was
02:12:43 changing and that was complicated yeah so the idea was that a principal designer once they came into existence should have had a health and safety file to work from yeah they were works on google yes that's correct yeah right
02:12:55 that's correct yeah right um if we could go to art
02:13:00 406299
02:13:07 this is an email from paul burrows um to claire williams dated the 20th of april 2015.
02:13:13 2015. um and he says he'll be managing the process
02:13:17 process um but that and the health and safety file may be completed by one of his colleagues because you'll see the subject line says re grenfell h file yeah he then goes on to say to be
02:13:28 file yeah he then goes on to say to be honest it's rare to receive information during the project it usually comes through at the end when there's little or no likelihood of it changing yeah does that reflect your professional experience of how health and safety files
02:13:38 files would be prepared at the time there it can be
02:13:41 can be it can be last minute the um let's say the as built information you would need in the health and safety file
02:13:52 and safety file however i am used to there's something called the cdm register that where designers raise you know risks they may not be able to mitigate or
02:14:03 they may not be able to mitigate or require attention even after handover my experience is that i have been asked by cdm coordinators throughout the project
02:14:14 project to keep that part up to date so that was that first um chunk of text we saw when we looked at what needs to be in a health and safety file and the information that's particularly relevant
02:14:25 information that's particularly relevant to fire is risks that haven't been mitigated
02:14:28 mitigated yes so the health and safety file will contain as built information so obviously there's no you know it has to be built to become as
02:14:39 you know it has to be built to become as built to go into the file there are some more dynamic processes around
02:14:47 around tracking residual risks throughout the design period that i would expect to be more accurate and the preparation of the file
02:14:58 and the preparation of the file getting ready for the as built information again remember there's lots of information lots of parties so there is work needed setting up the structure who's going to be
02:15:10 the structure who's going to be responsible for what and getting ready to obtain
02:15:13 to obtain any last minute information as well you just don't you don't do it in the last week
02:15:17 week because there's too much to do and i just want to look at some of the oral evidence
02:15:22 evidence um mr cash's evidence um on day 49 at page 80 please [Music]
02:15:31 now as it's loading he's being asked questions by um mr millet about 2013 so that initial stage when there wasn't a health and safety file before these
02:15:42 a health and safety file before these transitional provisions kicked in yeah and at line 10 he says now in the circumstances where there was no health and safety file for the grenfell tower at that time so november 2013 would you have expected rtla to produce
02:15:53 would you have expected rtla to produce one mr cash says no why not because those regulations refer to not only refurbishment projects but also to new construction projects where they wouldn't have been a health and safety file what it is saying is that the obligation
02:16:04 what it is saying is that the obligation is to produce one but it doesn't say when
02:16:06 when as is normally the practice the information for the health and safety file is a master in the project and the health and safety files produced at the end of the project when all the information is available and there are no further changes to be made to that
02:16:18 no further changes to be made to that information
02:16:22 is it your understanding of the regulations and guidance that there is a distinction between new build and refurbishments in terms of when a health and safety file i think the regulations themselves make that clear
02:16:34 themselves make that clear and that's that there's no distinction between the two if it says the health and safety file has you
02:16:40 you it
02:16:44 there should there has to be a health and safety file for an existing building
02:16:51 by the very nature of the fact that work was done
02:16:54 was done the building now exists there needs to be a health and safety file but if there isn't one there's no difference for a refurbishment project you've got to make you've got to do one
02:17:05 you've got to make you've got to do one and as we've been through the guidance says you should get on with it yeah okay so sorry do the regulations say for refurbishment you can wait to the end but no it doesn't say that at all yeah um mr
02:17:17 no it doesn't say that at all yeah um mr cash's evidence was that he didn't think one had to produce one until the end and you just answered that question yeah um
02:17:24 um and again you have answered this question part what kind of information would have been available during the course of the project yes and in particular before artelia ceased to be cdm coordinator that they could have put in a draft health and safety file
02:17:40 what types of information so i'm not asking for you to identify specific documents but in principle was there information out there that could have been compiled at an earlier stage i have not looked at
02:17:51 at an earlier stage i have not looked at what everybody was doing every week the state of completeness of the construction and which documents should have been ready in what week okay
02:18:03 um moving on now to the appointment of principal designer and we've been through how that worked in principle and also that ultimately the
02:18:12 the tmo concluded that it would fulfill the principle designer rule you've looked at that chronology in quite a bit of detail in your report and for the transcript it's 9.8.22 to
02:18:23 and for the transcript it's 9.8.22 to 9.8.53 of your report um we don't need to go to it um and we've got to the ultimate conclusion if we go to page 50 115
02:18:41 um and we see there you've provided a little summary yeah um of what happened yeah and that goes over the page um
02:18:52 and that goes over the page um yeah and through that process you've noted various internal communications with you about this issue are you critical of artelia's handling of the process of hand over to the tmo
02:19:05 of the process of hand over to the tmo yeah can we go back to the page so back together 115. my critical well well i set out what i observe in the evidence um i
02:19:17 observe in the evidence um i believe that you see point a yes that second of february email i think that's the keith bushel email to his colleagues saying
02:19:28 bushel email to his colleagues saying this project is not going to be handed over before the 6th of october yes okay so there's an awareness the transition period is coming and that
02:19:40 the transition period is coming and that work needs to be done and i reviewed the evidence to understand what work was done and i couldn't find any and is that something you feel you are able
02:19:51 is that something you feel you are able to give an expert opinion on whether that
02:19:53 that falls below the standard of a cdm coordinator or is that something that's out with your expertise as i said in my report i recommended the inquiry
02:20:02 inquiry took advice from a cdm expert if they wanted to explore that any further thank you
02:20:12 later in your report at 12.2 12.2.7 on page 170
02:20:18 page 170 um you you note that it's of concern um let me zoom in you see it's of concern that the tmo accepted the role of principal designer
02:20:29 accepted the role of principal designer when claire williams retrospectively acknowledges um that she wouldn't have had the technical expertise to assess whether it complied with the statutory guidance yes um did you hear miss williams
02:20:40 um did you hear miss williams oral evidence i mean i did i did listen to her but i you know has your view changed at all well look now i didn't listen to her evidence in full and have a big think
02:20:52 evidence in full and have a big think about how it impacted my report so if you need me to do that i shall um some related questions to that is it fair to say that the tmo had to take on this rule by default because
02:21:04 take on this rule by default because nobody else on the project um had agreed to take it on
02:21:20 perhaps if i put another way were there other just trying to think so i wanted to
02:21:24 to so um as a director of a multi-disciplinary design company you know i have to talk to my clients about cdm regulations
02:21:36 clients about cdm regulations you know beyond say fire safety information and i and others would really strongly advise
02:21:45 advise our client not to take on that role that's what i was trying to think of a way of putting that in those circumstances um were there other options available to the tmo so
02:21:56 other options available to the tmo so where
02:21:57 where the other members of the professional team so studio e ryden artelia had all said
02:22:01 said we don't want to take on this role um was there another option a different a third party for example so i'm not going to stretch into anything like that except to say to you what i said in my report
02:22:14 what i said in my report um remember i listed out all the other companies they contacted who who the tmo considered to have the skills to help them and that
02:22:25 to have the skills to help them and that was another approach they could have taken
02:22:37 approach they could have taken um so we've already um noted that there was no health and safety file handed over to the tmo at the end of that transition period um at nine point
02:22:48 that transition period um at nine point three point of your report which is on page 119 and i know we're jumping around a bit no it's okay that's okay in the report yeah um you say that the
02:23:02 yeah um you say that the you say there um the a cop made it clear that kctml's client should make sure the cdm coordinator compiles the file yeah therefore it's your opinion the tmo were also
02:23:13 your opinion the tmo were also responsible for a lack of a health and safety file at the end of the transition period
02:23:16 period yeah um could you just expand on that
02:23:21 expansion so why do you say they were also responsible because they were the client and that's because they have duties under the cdm regulations to ensure that things are done yeah exactly and the the cdm
02:23:33 done yeah exactly and the the cdm regulations i mean i think maybe i might add to my report with the table um showing all the different things that's assigned to the client uniquely in each set of regulations
02:23:47 uniquely in each set of regulations and it's it's a distinction as we've explored from regulation 38 that the client here actually has a regulation but yeah as yes they it's a they
02:23:56 they it's they're they're a duty holder under these regulations and they have a really central role as defined within the regulations it's not my opinion
02:24:07 my opinion yeah um we've already looked that the tmo asked ryden to collate the health and safety file and ryden then subcontracted that workout as well to all group holdings yes um and is it
02:24:20 to all group holdings yes um and is it your understanding that whilst ryden agreed to carry out this work and to engage an external company to collate that information yeah the statutory duty to produce the file at that stage so after the expiry of the
02:24:32 at that stage so after the expiry of the transitional people rested with the tmo yes because they were principal designers they made themselves principal designer and by doing that they gave themselves that duty
02:24:44 that duty i've already asked you these questions with respect to regulation 38 information but um for clarity how common is it for third parties to be engaged to collate information for a health and safety file
02:24:56 health and safety file so yeah so as as i've explained my experiences as the health and safety file is a part of the building manual and i have worked
02:25:08 and i have worked with um principal contractors where they've
02:25:11 they've employed another organization for information collection and you say information collection is that they go about finding the relevant bits of information
02:25:22 finding the relevant bits of information do they also review it or express any views about it in your experience it depends on their appointment
02:25:30 and you say at 9.3.26 on page 84 of your report that the arrangement between ryden and all group holdings is
02:25:41 between ryden and all group holdings is outside of your realm of expertise to provide an opinion on whether this was an appropriate arrangement and can you just again explain what you mean by that is that another
02:25:52 what you mean by that is that another area where you advise the inquiry to obtain i just meant that i i don't mean anything other than what i've said i wasn't trying to imply anything else sinister or otherwise yeah just you're
02:26:06 sinister or otherwise yeah just you're not able to comment on it because it's not within your area of expertise well i do i don't you know run i'm not an employer's agent i'm
02:26:16 i'm not a client i can only tell you what happens to me to me on a project yeah
02:26:25 in your opinion and you may say this also falls outside your expertise what skills would a principal designer need to be able to scrutinize a health and safety file once it had been provided yeah so i
02:26:38 file once it had been provided yeah so i i
02:26:39 i i i think i've made i really hope i've made it clear in my report and i haven't strayed into what a principal designer should do i've only explained i've only given my views
02:26:50 views on fire safety information but the principal designer role again is defined in the regulations and it is it has become a very
02:27:02 and it is it has become a very substantial role as defined in the regulation and i'm a lot i can say that because as a director of a multi-disciplinary company we have to make decisions
02:27:16 company we have to make decisions regularly about if we're going to take on that role but for this inquiry i'm giving fire safety
02:27:22 safety um advice yeah let's move on then and look at that aspect yes yeah well and your opinions on that if we can look at the health and safety file itself
02:27:33 at the health and safety file itself it's tmom 401932
02:27:41 so we've heard about it this is it the health and safety file yes um it's three pages long yes and that's it's a series of cross references back to the building yes
02:27:52 to the building yes um you've reviewed those cross references and we can see that in table 10.1 on page 129 of your report [Applause] um and we just i just want to look at
02:28:04 um and we just i just want to look at the top three references there um on the left we've got a brief project description and project team
02:28:15 and project team and you say you've looked and no cross-references are provided because there are separate files in the folder on the usb stick yes containing the building manual that contains that information
02:28:26 contains that information b1 architects as built drawings that cross refers to part 2 section 2.1.2.2 of the building manual and you say however this section does not exist yes
02:28:37 not exist yes um again b1 pre-construction information the cross-reference doesn't exist um and c1 again the cross-reference doesn't
02:28:49 and c1 again the cross-reference doesn't exist
02:28:49 exist yes um and that's your analysis again of the building manual handed over to the tmo provided to you in february 2020.
02:28:58 2020. yes it's about usbs yes um and that's a theme isn't it um of your analysis that the cross references don't actually relate to sections in the building manual yes um
02:29:11 sections in the building manual yes um you then give your conclusions from your analysis
02:29:15 analysis at 10.3.16 on page 130. um and i'll just read those it says it can be seen in table 10.1 that the majority of the cross references do not
02:29:27 majority of the cross references do not exist or link to incorrect sections of the building manual yes um you've noted there the guidance from the health and safety executive says that
02:29:35 says that information must be in a convenient form clear concise and easily understandable and then you say based on the inaccuracy of the referencing alone and also the scale of documentation provided where the referencing is correct
02:29:47 the referencing is correct in my opinion this health and safety file is not in a convenient form nor clear or concise nor easily understandable yes
02:29:57 in your opinion was it appropriate um to have a health and safety file that took the format of a reference document or
02:30:04 or perhaps i should ask in your experience is that something that was done um this referencing type of health and safety file
02:30:18 safety file typically i'm given a building manual and i go to a section of it to get relevant health and safety information
02:30:32 relevant health and safety information and so yes it could it would it might reference other parts of the building manual
02:30:37 manual i i'm thinking about other health and safety files i i use and you know they are actually complete so i've seen both forms um
02:30:49 both forms um at 10.5.5 on page 145 you give your overall conclusion yeah um that the health and safety file was substantially non-compliant
02:31:00 substantially non-compliant does that remain your view
02:31:04 yes and this is this is a summary here of your analysis um in particular of the items relevant to fire safety so point a you say no residual hazard
02:31:15 so point a you say no residual hazard registers are provided yes and therefore the reader cannot understand what hazards may remain and must then be managed over the future life of the building yes so that was we looked at that earlier
02:31:25 earlier in the list of things that needed to be provided you singled that out as one of the items relevant to fire safety yeah because and yes we've tracked that through now to your conclusion yeah there was nothing there addressing that
02:31:37 there was nothing there addressing that i haven't found one in the health and safety file and it's a duty to have one in the file i just want to look at the evidence of ms williams on this point it's day
02:31:49 of ms williams on this point it's day 56 page 132.
02:32:01 uh and we start um at line 20 line 19 and she says but can i point out the issue with our building was that we had
02:32:13 issue with our building was that we had an existing part of the building that ryden were not involved with they were not involved with water tanks in the roof they were not involved with several
02:32:19 several well let me just think there were areas of the building that were existing and then over the page so whatever ryden provided would only be partial information in terms of the health and safety file
02:32:31 health and safety file um and then she goes on and she says at line six so ryden we're never going to provide complete information for that health and safety file because i think that's quite important to mention because the building contract as i say only covered elements of the
02:32:42 as i say only covered elements of the building it didn't cover the whole building
02:32:45 building so her evidence is she wasn't expecting complete information from ryden yes if you focus only on the ryden works
02:32:56 the ryden works um sorry let me just ask these questions in a slightly different way having reviewed the documentation and evidence the building manual that you've looked at was it your understanding when preparing
02:33:07 was it your understanding when preparing the report that ryden was only providing information relevant to its scope of work
02:33:15 so so all i've done is understood fire safety matters that are part of the primary
02:33:28 matters that are part of the primary refurbishment which was extensive and don't include water tanks and then gone to look for that information in the health and safety file
02:33:40 file if ms williams had health and safety file
02:33:44 file information available to her i would have to ask why it wasn't provided to artelia when they drafted the documents they did
02:33:55 documents they did at the start of the project
02:33:59 i just probably it's worth me saying now that i listened very carefully to that part of miss williams evidence and i am currently investigating keystone and the other servers at the
02:34:12 keystone and the other servers at the tmo
02:34:13 tmo to try and find all this information that wasn't provided to apparently not provided to the professional design team at the time even though it was a duty of the client
02:34:25 even though it was a duty of the client to do so
02:34:27 to do so at the time so that's something that the inquiry might have to come back to with you
02:34:32 you once you've completed that yes investigation because it's relevant yes that's correct yeah um if the panel accepts the evidence that the health and safety file produced by ryden or on ryden's behalf was only intended
02:34:44 or on ryden's behalf was only intended to cover ryden's own works does that affect your conclusion that the health and safety file was substantially non-compliant no because i was thinking about ryden's health and safety file
02:34:56 health and safety file and in a number of places in your report you said that matters were presided over by the tmo yes um what do you mean by this because the
02:35:06 the kctmo are the clients and the cdm regulations puts the client the client is is a duty holder but
02:35:17 holder but it it's a very specific type of duty holder
02:35:21 holder they make the appointments they set you know
02:35:25 know they set up the other duty holders they make the appointments they have to have information available to them
02:35:32 to them they have to track what's happening so they have
02:35:36 they have a distinct role and before the kctmo any project not just the primary refurbishment that fell under those regulations there may have
02:35:48 under those regulations there may have been
02:35:49 been different cdm coordinators over the years
02:35:52 years so cdm coordinators come and go the client
02:35:55 client is the client and has been the client and that's what i mean when i use i chose the word presided and if we can see that um at 13.6.12 of your report on page 191
02:36:09 um at 13.6.12 of your report on page 191 you make this point um and you say there yeah however the common duty holder for all the works was kctmo and they
02:36:20 all the works was kctmo and they consistently failed to create or enable a process that complied with the cdm yes that's my reading of the evidence yes and from a fire safety perspective that's your opinion as well that
02:36:31 opinion as well that yeah so that's but that is my opinion i've made that clear for each one of the works i've looked for the relevant fire safety information in the health and safety file and tried to find it and have have not
02:36:43 and tried to find it and have have not found it
02:36:47 and the next and final topic um we're going to look at um is the question of availability i've just got one eye on the clock yes i i do as well mr chairman we only
02:36:58 yes i i do as well mr chairman we only have um
02:36:59 have um i will be finished by a half four with these questions but then we shall have the usual we shall have the break and i am sorry to have to overrun um right but we only it is a short topic
02:37:10 um right but we only it is a short topic good yes thank you um so in this next topic we're looking at the issue of what documentation you consider should have been available on the night
02:37:19 the night of the fire um going back to the regulation 38 information um and if we go back to the words of regulation 38 first which is on
02:37:30 words of regulation 38 first which is on page 9 of your blarp 221 reports page 9.
02:37:48 um we've already discussed that um regulation 38 is for the purpose of
02:37:56 of um assisting the r or the responsible person discharging their duties and to understand the operation and maintenance of the building um the regulation itself doesn't say that fire safety information needs to be
02:38:08 that fire safety information needs to be available for the purposes of operational firefighting does it no no if we now go to your cdm report um so that's blarp 2
02:38:19 um so that's blarp 2 um 16 at page 7.
02:38:25 you've quoted from bs99 paragraph h3 and it says 1.2.6 so it's over the page on page 8.
02:38:37 1.2.6 so it's over the page on page 8. at the top the fire safety manual should be made available for inspection or test by auditors and regulators and for operational purposes of the fire and rescue service yeah so that's where you get um the
02:38:48 yeah so that's where you get um the concept
02:38:48 concept that the regulation 38 information should be available yeah for the fire service so so i just think it's worth me explaining that the the operator maintained
02:39:01 operator maintained under the rr the regulatory reform fire safety order
02:39:06 there is a duty there around emergency planning
02:39:10 planning and it requires the responsible person to communicate with the brigade in that specific regard and that's why the british standard would remind people
02:39:23 the british standard would remind people why the manual needs to be available for the brigade in that context so um and you then say at 1.2.7 that the tmo had a statutory duty to make the
02:39:34 tmo had a statutory duty to make the fire safety manual available on the night of the fire um is that your understanding of how bs 9999 works together with regulation
02:39:45 bs 9999 works together with regulation 38.
02:39:46 38. so under the rro you have a duty to provide fire safety information to the brigade for the purposes of emergency planning and that's in a very particular context
02:39:58 and that's in a very particular context it's not the context that was dealt with in phase one so i'm not going back there it's about communicating information in a particular way to make arrangements before a fire
02:40:10 to make arrangements before a fire occurs
02:40:12 occurs and is it your understanding that where there is a fire so where operational firefighting is taking place the fire safety manual should be available for the purposes of the lfb
02:40:23 available for the purposes of the lfb if the fire brigade call for information related to fire safety for the building that they're in the responsible person needs to be able
02:40:34 the responsible person needs to be able to communicate that and that comes from their duties under the rro yeah from regulation 38. i'm just trying to understand how you understand this all works based on what you've said in your report yeah
02:40:46 what you've said in your report yeah it's to do with the rr fire it's to do with the rro and regulation 38 is all about connecting to the rro and with regard to whether the
02:40:58 the rro and with regard to whether the health and safety file should have been available to the lfb you set out your opinion on page nine of this report at 1.3.7 and 1.3.10 and to summarize what you say there
02:41:10 and to summarize what you say there there's no obligation in cdm that the health and safety file must be available for the operational purposes of the fire and rescue that's correct um there's nothing in the approved codes of practice or the hse guidance that
02:41:22 of practice or the hse guidance that says it should be available that's correct but you don't think it's unreasonable to expect that if the fire safety manual was not available for whatever reason the health and safety file could be made available and relied upon instead
02:41:33 relied upon instead yeah so at grenfell tower they had one source of information which was the building manual and it was meant to contain fire safety information for whatever
02:41:44 information for whatever particular regulation you're thinking about
02:41:49 about the fire safety information was relevant to the brigade
02:41:55 and in your opinion information relating to compartmentation location of firefighting equipment fire protection measures provided in gas supply equipment was information relevant to the fire brigade on the night of the fire and
02:42:06 brigade on the night of the fire and should have been immediately available by means of the health and safety field as well as a building description which would include the flat numbering system the story numbers yeah
02:42:18 the story numbers yeah and when you say immediately available the word immediately doesn't feature in the guidance is that just a practical point you're making that it should have been something
02:42:26 something at the tmo's fingertips yes um in the middle of the night without any prior warning
02:42:41 without any prior warning if a responsible person is asked for information why would you not know where the information was well what's turning through my mind is that um making the
02:42:52 file available to the fire brigade for operational purposes is likely to be more usefully done um well ahead of any fire so that they can
02:43:03 they can extract the information yes is really likely to be useful to cruise on the ground yes okay they can then feed into their yes uh systems
02:43:12 systems yes and have it immediately available so the whole file i in my mind is very large exactly so it's very large in my mind i was thinking very particularly about
02:43:23 i was thinking very particularly about the drawings which as you know i explained
02:43:26 explained in in my report and how long it took to find them
02:43:30 find them which i don't understand including in the middle of the night in the middle of a fire and in module three
02:43:38 three we will be talking about kctmo's emergency planning arrangements and we will need to come back to this so i don't mean arrive with a big massive file in the middle of the night
02:43:50 massive file in the middle of the night at all but i'm talking about very basic information being available rapidly and yes i think that that what's the point of having the information
02:44:01 point of having the information if you couldn't make it available in the middle of an emergency because that's exactly what the information is for
02:44:09 that's helpful thank you um but it's right we can't take it any further than that it's not for you to speculate on what the effects might have been had that been available
02:44:20 might have been had that been available so you can say you think it should have been available you can't go any further and say if it had been available this would have happened differently or i haven't said that you've said that yeah and i'm confirming with you that you haven't said no i'm not planning on
02:44:31 you haven't said no i'm not planning on saying anything else other than what's in my report um so just one final question from me um bearing in mind your conclusions on the adequacy of the health and safety file and compliance with regulation 38 in
02:44:42 and compliance with regulation 38 in terms of fire safety information yeah why is it that you think it's important for these failures to be investigated by the inquiry i i was trying to explain that there's
02:44:55 it's like a circle of compliance you've got your cdm regulations you've got regulation 38 then you've got the regulatory reform order
02:45:05 order what it's trying to do is transfer relevant fire safety information around that circle to protect people and there's two types of people
02:45:15 of people the people who live or work in a building and the fire brigade and that's it's all and i hate the phrase golden thread but that's exactly what it's about that
02:45:26 but that's exactly what it's about that you
02:45:27 you it's simple easy to find and clear a narrative about what's what's in the building
02:45:34 building to help people during an emergency that's
02:45:37 that's what it's all about and that's why i insisted i write a another very long report on the health and safety file because it's another place where you
02:45:48 because it's another place where you know the law asks of us to provide useful information in the event of a fire that's all i was trying to do hopefully somebody will listen thank you
02:45:59 hopefully somebody will listen thank you dr elaine those are all of my questions um right thank you very much um well at this
02:46:05 this point we have to have another short break i allowed to just go home at this point you will be going home
02:46:13 home i'm going to say that we'll come back at 20 to 5 but if you need more time then just let us know yes thank you for all right okay thank you twenty to five
02:56:52 yes would you ask dr lane to come back in please
02:57:05 right well let's see if there are more questions for you is grogan just one and it's more of a correction than a question so it should be quick um you mentioned in your evidence on regulation 38
02:57:17 regulation 38 a letter from the lfb um and i said that it was a letter sent um round to the tmo following the latino house fire that was wrong it's the shepherd court fire
02:57:28 the shepherd court fire i don't know if i'll see um because it's later it's it's much closer to the fire yeah so if we go if we just go to it it's rbk three zeros five four one nine eight
02:57:44 so is that the letter you were referring to dated maybe 2017 yes tall buildings external fire spread if you just go on to page two you'll see there the
02:57:55 go on to page two you'll see there the advice from the lfb is they'd strongly urge you to consider this issue as part of risk assessment process for premises suggest you make sure that all relevant information about any replacement window and facade schemes is fully available to
02:58:06 and facade schemes is fully available to fire risk assessors yes and is it right that it's that information that you're saying the tmo did not have in its possession to be able to
02:58:16 able to i said that in the evidence i've looked at so far
02:58:21 at so far i didn't see them go to the building manual
02:58:24 manual when this very important question was asked yes and that's where that information needed to be yes thank you and that's it right yes thank you very much
02:58:35 thank you very much good well done if we could just we would like to i know you will as well um thank dr lane very much for coming um and for assisting us with our investigations no problem yes well i would certainly endorse that
02:58:47 yes well i would certainly endorse that dr lane anyone who's seen any of your reports yes realize how much work has been put into yes
02:58:53 yes yes it's a tremendous effort and we're very grateful to you yeah no problem and just to acknowledge as always the named people who have assisted in all the investigations
02:59:04 assisted in all the investigations incredibly yeah we've seen that but as team leader and i think yeah you can take uh credit on their behalf okay and
02:59:11 okay and for them yeah well thank you very much yes thank you for being here we'll no doubt see you'll get at some stage i'm sure you will i know you are free to go home oh
02:59:18 home oh thank you okay thank you right well that's it for today uh and we
02:59:31 right well that's it for today uh and we resume on monday at 10 o'clock um we have it's the afternoon that we're resuming so we have mr hyatt's forgotten um and this has been that timetable change right so two o'clock
02:59:43 timetable change right so two o'clock yes right well that's the end of the hearing for today we shall resume at two o'clock on monday
03:00:06 you