Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Arconic Evidence - Monday 22nd February 2021 (2/2)
00:00:11 welcome back everyone we're going to continue hearing mr schmidt this afternoon of course i must check that the interpreters are with us we're with you very good
00:00:25 with us we're with you very good thank you very much and i can see mr schmidt in the thumbnail so i hope he can hear me and see me properly
00:00:36 i can hear you and see you very good thank you very much um so mr millet when you're ready i think you can continue mr chairman thank you very much mr schmidt
00:00:47 schmidt i'm going to take a short detour to cover something that needs to be corrected
00:00:56 corrected now if random translator could translate as i go
00:01:00 as i go let me tell you what i want to do
00:01:04 okay
00:01:09 it don't
00:01:17 we have been informed by our comics lawyers that in some places in your evidence
00:01:24 evidence the interpreters did not translate the word misleading correctly
00:01:51 that is a matter of debate but we need to be clear to avoid any dispute about the record of your evidence
00:02:06 questions
00:02:10 in order that we can be as clear as possible about what i intended by that word in the context of the questions i'm going to put the questions again
00:02:34 there are three examples or three exchanges
00:02:38 exchanges i want to go through with you please
00:02:45 what i'm going to do is to show you the transcript in english and the your original french or the original french
00:02:56 french will be read back to you taken from the audio and the question will be re-translated so that where the word misleading
00:03:07 so that where the word misleading appears
00:03:08 appears it will be translated as wrong such as to lead a person into error possible
00:03:44 uh
00:03:50 now i'm going to show you the first of these exchanges can we please have the transcript for day 92 at page 16.
00:04:06 this corresponds with the audio or the video and audio of your evidence on day 92 part 1 of 2 at 101 14 i'd like you to look please
00:04:19 101 14 i'd like you to look please at the english at the line at lines 12 to 17. i'm going to read the english and you will be read the french version of the
00:04:31 the french version of the question-and-answer
00:04:43 line 12 do you expect that any certificate that allowed the reader to believe that the product performed the same in a fire whether it was rivet fix or cassette fix would be misleading
00:05:16 and i want to ask the interpreters to translate my question using the new french word for misleading in the sense in which i intended it could you please do that
00:05:27 could you please do that it's been done mr millet
00:05:30 mr millet with my question re-translated with the new phrase from is your answer the same
00:06:04 um
00:06:15 [Music]
00:06:57 [Music] um
00:07:02 um [Music]
00:07:43 so um mr schmidt would like to hear the question
00:07:47 question asked again and you'd also like uh one to clarify the uh interpretation of misleading well i'm not going to do that i'm going
00:07:58 well i'm not going to do that i'm going to pursue my course mr schmidt i'm going to i'm going to put the question i put to you on day 92 again and i'm going to ask for the translator to translate the word misleading in the
00:08:10 to translate the word misleading in the way she translated it before and we'll see how we go now the question is do you accept can we have the transcript back please do you accept that any certificate let's play line 12
00:08:23 that any certificate let's play line 12 do you accept that any certificates that allowed the reader to believe that the product performed the same in a fire whether it was rivet fix or cassette fix would be misleading
00:08:34 a certificate performed
00:09:06 a
00:09:19 wait yes um day 92 page 46 lines 20 to 24. okay
00:09:33 we can't
00:09:45 the question at line in english was do you accept that in presenting the rivet test 5a only to the bba
00:09:54 bba as a representative of the fire performance of reynobon 55pe arconic was telling the bba a misleading half truth and if the translation could be given again using the
00:10:06 again using the more appropriate word please
00:10:12 test the performance of food
00:10:16 also food
00:10:30 a
00:10:45 that with the new translation of the question mr schmidt is your answer the same
00:10:51 same exception escalated
00:11:05 and what was a previous um interpretation
00:11:11 madam interpreter can you assist um sadly not
00:11:15 sadly not uh no
00:11:18 uh no so i think maybe this was
00:11:23 used this time i think it was my colleague sorry i'm sorry to interrupt
00:11:30 interrupt um i think this is becoming quite confusing for mr schmidt um because he's trying to understand what was
00:11:39 what was the words that we used last time and was used this time i wonder whether it would be sensible simply to translate the question using the
00:11:48 the new formulation and see what his answer is
00:11:52 is he asked he asked to be shown the earlier word i'll explain to you mr schmidt i think the way this is being put to you is is a little confusing
00:12:06 so what i'm going to do is to ask mr millet to identify the answers with which he's concerned
00:12:18 i'm sorry the question the questions is i'm going to ask the interpreter to translate them for you
00:12:32 and you just answered them again without worrying
00:12:35 worrying they were translated last
00:12:50 thank you merci we go back to the transcript please
00:13:02 question in english do you accept that in presenting the rivet test 5a only to the bba as representative of the far performance of freyno bond 55pe arconic was telling the bba a misleading
00:13:14 arconic was telling the bba a misleading half truth answer yes you can see it like that
00:13:44 [Music]
00:13:54 that was the question your answer before was uh
00:13:57 was uh yes you can see it like that
00:14:28 is that it wasn't done consciously
00:14:34 [Music] because there was a doubt with regard to the far certificate 5b
00:14:45 the far certificate 5b thank you now i'm going to let's see i'm going to show you the last passage which is quite long a day 92 4 line 3 to 25
00:14:59 and also day 92 page 75 line seven uh that's like 9 17. uh now let's start with the beginning of those two please
00:15:10 those two please line three at page 74. uh follow the same process please mr schmidt if we can uh and i'll i'll stop after each exchange
00:15:21 exchange question in english can you explain why the certificate does not state that the test result euro class b s2 d naught was achieved for p e only in the rivet form but not in the cassette form
00:15:34 certificate or class b this
00:15:49 we now come to the question do you accept that that omission made the certificate thoroughly misleading
00:16:05 [Music] um
00:16:26 [Music]
00:16:30 yes but with the same comment that was made previously
00:16:35 continuing well i wonder whether we need to continue because the witness has said that his answer would be the same with the gloss that he's just put on it in other words as i understand his
00:16:47 in other words as i understand his evidence he did not misunderstand the thrust of the previous questions well mr chairman i'm very i'm more than content to to rest on that basis
00:16:57 basis uh with the exchange i should just draw to your and the public's attention the fact that this exchange continues over a number of pages and the word misleading or very misleading uh occurs uh
00:17:08 or very misleading uh occurs uh again uh in the transcript uh but i think we've had the thrust of it i think the witnesses unless you think that the context is such that it requires a re-evaluation of
00:17:20 such that it requires a re-evaluation of the
00:17:21 the uh translation of the wordless leading
00:17:26 i think we've got the picture pretty clear
00:17:29 clear i think that is right mr schmidt i should just explain your benefit
00:17:37 benefit my intervention
00:17:41 it seemed to me from the answers you gave to the last three questions that your understanding of the word misleading however translated from english into
00:17:52 however translated from english into french
00:17:53 french was pretty clear
00:18:12 uh
00:18:45 [Music] no to one question which said you know why test b wasn't mentioned [Music]
00:19:05 i believe and this is just a belief it's not based on facts but i don't think it was at all deliberate not to mention it
00:19:15 but that there was a misunderstanding or bad understanding with regard to the results of the test
00:19:41 [Music]
00:19:45 but at the same time the certificate can mislead especially if you look at the results of the test the part relating to the results of the test
00:19:54 it is only without reading the rest
00:19:59 all right thank you well that's very helpful thank you very much it seems to me that insofar as there's
00:20:10 it seems to me that insofar as there's concern
00:20:10 concern over the translation of the word misleading the witness uh has not indicated that he would give a different answer to the different use of the
00:20:21 answer to the different use of the french word whether it's important to explore the question whether any misleading was deliberate or just fortuitous is a different matter which doesn't turn on the word misleading
00:20:33 on the word misleading and um i'm not sure you need to follow that up any further than you have already
00:20:38 already i'm very grateful i agree so can i then go back to where i left off at the
00:20:45 at the lunch break mr schmidt you'll remember that at the lunch break we were discussing um what had happened in early 2015 and why it was that the 2008
00:20:59 and why it was that the 2008 sales brochure for reyno bond was still in circulation among customers that was the context mr schmidt the context
00:21:14 [Music]
00:21:25 do you agree that
00:21:29 as soon as or within a reasonable time after um the uh fire classifications uh for uh radio bond uh
00:21:42 uh for uh radio bond uh rb55 in both rivet and cassette uh were achieved at the end of 2014 those should have been communicated
00:21:53 those should have been communicated immediately as soon as reasonably possible to
00:22:24 [Music] yes at the end of 2014 yes we reasons
00:22:42 [Music]
00:22:48 but we've already done the necessary at the beginning of 2014 with us within the sales team do you accept that as a result of the early december class
00:22:59 class specifications for rivet and cassette our colleagues should have immediately updated its customer-facing literature and told the sales teams to distribute it
00:23:35 no i didn't think that was the practice it may not have been the practice but would it not have been best practice at the very lowest note
00:24:04 [Music]
00:24:10 but i'm assuming that the documentation on the site must have been up to date
00:24:29 do you accept that our comic should have taken positive steps to withdraw its marketing literature that stated the wrong fire performance and classification
00:24:41 reduced positive
00:25:03 no i i think it's impossible to do do not accept that iconic should have withdrawn
00:25:10 withdrawn all out of date and inaccurate marketing literature as soon as it discovered that the fire performance and classification was different for renabon 55pe from the performance
00:25:21 performance or classification represented to the market
00:25:26 next
00:25:31 [Music]
00:25:48 [Music]
00:25:54 uh
00:26:08 [Music]
00:26:16 but i think that anyway the the this update was made in the inventories but i don't think we necessarily have uh traceability for um
00:26:27 uh traceability for um marketing documents for uh client for current clients or potential clients no mr schmidt i understand that but you should have done what i'm suggesting let me be clear i'm
00:26:38 what i'm suggesting let me be clear i'm suggesting to you that arconic should have had a system in place whereby all of its sales representatives ensured
00:26:45 ensured that it their marketing literature that was in circulation in their markets was up-to-date and accurate do you accept that no mr schmidt
00:27:04 president
00:27:18 is
00:27:29 [Music]
00:27:32 uh
00:27:38 it's difficult
00:27:45 no not no i don't accept that so are you telling us that you you were prepared to accept a situation where your marketing and sales
00:27:58 your marketing and sales forces selling bond 55 were allowing out-of-date and inaccurate marketing material to circulate within those markets without correcting them
00:28:14 situations
00:28:40 [Music] um
00:28:56 uh
00:29:05 [Music] these documents were completely available on request and i think that the up-to-date documents were um available on our internet site
00:29:17 um available on our internet site uh if since 2008 there'd been a few iterations nevertheless the up-to-date documents were on our site
00:29:31 we then go moving on please to
00:29:38 your exhibit 10 uh at page 260. this is net30s 53157 at page 260.
00:29:52 psd now this is an email from diana pereira on the 24th of june 2014 to you and it's in english mr schmidt
00:30:10 [Music]
00:30:34 there's no french version of this it didn't come to you in the french version it came in english to you did you read and understand it when it came to you do you think looking at it
00:30:48 from
00:30:59 yes it says and what i'll do is i'll read it in english but just because i'm asking you questions about it it'll be translated into french
00:31:11 nick and claude uh could i impose on you both to send me your definitions of pe fr a1 and a2 i want to make sure i have them correct if comes up next day or two regarding
00:31:22 if comes up next day or two regarding investments and work on low-cost fr core i'm also not certain if the definitions are regionally based on universal
00:31:28 universal thank you diana
00:32:13 please
00:32:17 you can see your response in english
00:32:22 herrera same day 24th june 2015 and you say i've asked verlet sales technical support to prepare you an answer
00:32:30 answer the definitions will be the same the only difference will be the suitability of the fire rated products to country laws say s and if we go up and i'm not going to have that translated back into french because
00:32:41 translated back into french because that's
00:32:41 that's that's risky you replied in english and i'm
00:32:44 i'm i should leave it there if we go up to the email that's second from the top it's dated 22 24th of june 2015 again this is from claude velle to you
00:32:55 this is from claude velle to you and it's also in the french and we have that at page 257 in the same exhibit if we can have those up side by side
00:33:07 don't comment
00:33:12 and you can see that claude valley says to you well closely
00:33:30 i propose the attached table in answer to diana's question you can see that on the right-hand side in the uh in the french as well and then above that called verley follows up again asking if you have any
00:33:42 follows up again asking if you have any questions
00:33:43 questions uh he says to you mr schmidt claude we have just re-read the document together with robert and are proposing this last version to you we are at your disposal if you have any questions
00:34:00 you can see yes then if we go to page 261 we can see the attachment that he sent you questions
00:34:14 and again this is only in english there's an existing english when you receive this attachment from mr verde did you read it
00:34:31 yes certainly yes and are you certain about it
00:34:36 about it now because this was something your american
00:34:39 american senior or boss perhaps was asking you about
00:34:44 about it
00:35:01 let's look at the attachment as i say it's only in english we don't have a french version at the top top left of the table we can see
00:35:08 see that this is about aap product we see that in the top left hand of the column there
00:35:19 and then if we look at the top row the headers are other equivalent products fire class recording criteria typical application
00:35:36 and then if we look at the bottom two rows it says renault b1 called fr and then it says very limited contribution to fire
00:35:46 fire b euro class en13501b1 din4102 germany you see that
00:35:56 reynolds
00:36:00 in the right hand column it says maximal building height 28 meters to 35 meters depending on the country utter maximum
00:36:19 plastic based insulation products and then fire class was flammable c2e euro class en13501b2 with the german
00:36:31 en13501b2 with the german classification too criteria limitations given by the smoke and smoke production and flaming droplets typical application you see this typical application maximal
00:36:42 you see this typical application maximal building height of 8 meters to 12 meters depending the country
00:36:52 etc
00:37:06 yes can we take it from your receiving this document that you knew at this time mid 2014 as a matter of principle that pe
00:37:16 pe should not be used uh on buildings higher than
00:37:47 [Music]
00:38:02 uh
00:38:07 [Music]
00:38:44 uh well to give you the position of
00:38:56 uh well to give you the position of this document it's something that diana needed and she says it's clear in the original mail she explained that she needs it she became the head of that division
00:39:08 she became the head of that division i think around that period or maybe a few months earlier and she would she wanted to have the the main ideas the main axes the main orientations for the various products and
00:39:19 various products and their application but uh it's not very specific
00:39:23 specific and uh it remains at a very general level
00:39:28 level who produced this document was it in-house
00:39:39 i think it's claude verli that produced it yes
00:39:43 it yes and say mr schmidt however
00:39:48 general or non-specific you think now this document might be this document was telling you wasn't it telling you that for pe its application
00:40:01 that for pe its application was limited to buildings that did not did not exceed a certain height now you knew that from this document didn't you
00:40:42 [Music]
00:40:50 general yes i think that we i'm not sure whether it's really in this period but it must be around that time
00:40:59 time i believe that we also change our marketing
00:41:02 marketing uh documentation to reflect these general rules
00:41:08 sitting there today can you remember a single piece of marketing literature which told customers in the uk that reinaborn 55pe should not be used above 18 meters
00:41:32 we met
00:41:44 [Music]
00:41:50 i don't know exactly when that document was distributed but i know that at some point we had a marketing document where you could see a drawing the picture of a building
00:42:29 i mean it uh it's so it exp it wasn't specific in fact to the british market this document but it showed clearly that there were two levels that a p product can be could be used up to a
00:42:40 a p product can be could be used up to a certain level an fr product could be used to a certain level again and beyond a certain height you had to use an
00:42:49 use an a2 product
00:42:56 and i remember the the drawing uh let's see if i can put my finger on the document
00:43:04 document is to give you a fair chance to uh identify it rather than us guessing could you please be shown a arc 50465.
00:43:20 the french version of this document i think we've got it at arc underscore of five zero is one
00:43:51 is that now take take a moment uh to look at that document if it can be uh expanded a little bit we could work with the french and the english i think and
00:44:03 the french and the english i think and expand them so we can look at the text docu
00:44:13 and if you turn to the next page i think you see the little little building in the document
00:44:31 yes that's what came to my mind this document is dated december 2016.
00:44:42 uh and uh we can see that if you and small on my screen to be able to see that but i think it's at
00:44:52 the top
00:44:57 if you go to page one and go to the middle of the page it's not that easy to see
00:45:10 very difficult to see but it's it's um it's it's in the middle uh you zoom into the top right hand page
00:45:21 uh you zoom into the top right hand page or right hand of the page there's some print going up and i just want to quickly show you where
00:45:28 where the date is you don't
00:45:40 let me ask you do you remember seeing this document before december
00:45:59 historical places no i have absolutely no historical or specific reference i'm afraid the it is actually very difficult to see it but um take it from me
00:46:13 um take it from me it is the last set of digits on the run of tiny text running up from the bottom to the top of the page
00:46:20 the page below the blue mark that says uh uh iconic um but i'm afraid i can't show it to you you'll have to take it from me i'm afraid and if that's wrong
00:46:31 wrong then we'll have to work on the basis that that's wrong but the document shows it to be
00:46:34 it to be december 2016.
00:46:51 my question for you is do you have a recollection that you saw this document any earlier questions
00:47:06 no not
00:47:14 [Music]
00:47:25 no i mean i couldn't say specifically once again i mean i know that the document existed but i couldn't tell you very
00:47:32 very specifically very precisely when it was quiet launched could we just go back please to
00:47:40 please to the uh attachment to mr verlais email to you which had the table in it
00:47:59 and if we just look at that my question there
00:48:02 there getting the document back for you again is
00:48:12 uh
00:48:15 no no i want i want page 261. in that run do you know whether that table was sent to diana pereira question
00:48:32 diana
00:48:43 [Music]
00:48:48 well it's a bit difficult to be a hundred percent certain of anything but i'm practically sure that it was done yes now i want to move forward a few days
00:48:58 days in june 2015 mr schmidt
00:49:08 53158 underscore p05 page 14. and in the french it's at page 12.
00:49:23 and at the very bottom of page 14 picking up the french up as well please page same exhibit run uh yes it is actually the same
00:49:37 email uh no it's not um right what i want is the
00:49:48 no it's not um right what i want is the very bottom of page 14 um which you'll which you'll see is an email from elvey mariche 29th of june 2015 to claude
00:50:05 claude i think you'll need page
00:50:09 13 for the french and that's not correct um if we could just scroll back up please in the french and go a little bit higher up page
00:50:22 and go a little bit higher up page 12.
00:50:25 yes there it is um so we need the email
00:50:34 uh what we need i think is the email the top of page 15 the french stay on page 12.
00:50:45 page 12. that's what i want and if you go to the bottom of page 12. uh yes there we are sorry
00:50:58 uh yes there we are sorry my fault for getting the geography wrong here this is an email from alve meriche on monday the 29th of june 2015 at 1411 to claude verna copied as you can see
00:51:11 to claude verna copied as you can see among others to lionel marcone claude he says claude and if you follow in the french i'll read the english in the official technical data sheet attached it stipulated the pe and fr
00:51:22 stipulated the pe and fr rm1 but since pe is now c s2d naught riveted and screwed it should be m2 we need to respond quickly am i right
00:51:33 it's a document
00:51:41 yes now at this point just correct me i think leonel marcone was not yet the director of sales and marketing it was still alan
00:51:56 [Music]
00:52:02 no
00:52:14 i'm not certain i don't know if we go up in the english to page 14 please and i want to look at the third email from the top
00:52:28 email
00:52:31 and in the french it's page 11
00:52:36 you'll see an email the same day from jean-philippe bayern to claude verlae and elvi mariche copied to
00:52:45 to patrice oduro and lionel marcone re-fly classification and you can see the uh
00:52:52 the uh french on the right at the bottom of page 11. and in the english he says
00:52:57 claude i just had the sun clear agency in paris perhaps following elway's exchanges with gaye asking me the same question
00:53:04 question gaia asked for the variant in fr referred to in the equivalence table attached to this email sunclear is looking forward to our response they're using p e equals m1 and all their common sales tools exclamation mark
00:53:16 tools exclamation mark and um you could see the uh email response from clove valley the same day copying
00:53:22 copying leonardo marcone uh he starts sally messier
00:53:25 messier you see that at the top of the page of the french hello gentlemen in english
00:53:40 foreign and he says hello gentlemen as i have already mentioned on several occasions reyna bond pe is classified as m2 or m4 european norm equivalent i was
00:53:53 or m4 european norm equivalent i was told that for the time being in france it is the french standards that that is required therefore nfp 92 m1 that it would be excessive to communicate on the subject my opinion pe is dangerous
00:54:05 my opinion pe is dangerous on facades and everything should be transferred to fr as a matter of urgency the nfp 92 standard should have been discontinued over 10 years ago this opinion is technical
00:54:16 years ago this opinion is technical and anti-commercial it seems i face now the view that claude velle expresses in this email on the 29th of
00:54:28 expresses in this email on the 29th of june 2015
00:54:30 june 2015 which you can see there is that a view that he
00:54:33 that he expressed openly within our comic to the best of your recollection
00:55:06 yes i think so did you know that that was his view before this later this
00:55:12 this email
00:55:16 some points i won't let that the timer before the date of this email specifically but before
00:55:29 specifically but before june 2015 more
00:55:46 it already uh mentioned and expressed the fact that p could be dangerous
00:55:53 if it was dangerous why are you still selling it
00:56:00 continues
00:56:09 [Music]
00:56:14 the
00:56:27 [Music]
00:56:53 well i go back to something i've already said and i go back to the same reply there are lots of products that are on sale and that are sold every day and in a very general way and
00:57:06 every day and in a very general way and these products may entail dangers or risks and these risks and dangers can be controlled very in various ways and various manners
00:57:19 mr schmidt here is mr verlay expressing his opinion which is that pe is dangerous on facades and everything should have been transferred to fr as a matter of urgency
00:57:34 transferred to fr as a matter of urgency my question is what what business does arconic have in selling
00:58:06 foreign
00:58:20 i can't say any more than what i've already said on this subject very well going a little bit higher higher up the email in the second paragraph he says i was told that for
00:58:31 paragraph he says i was told that for the time being in france it is the french standard that is required and therefore nfp92m1 and that it would be excessive to communicate on the subject
00:58:41 subject do you know who told mr verlay that it would be excessive to communicate on the subject
00:58:47 subject don't trip
00:59:16 this opinion is technical and anti-commercial it seems wizard called verlay told that his opinion was technical and anti-commercial
00:59:26 email technique anti-commercial
00:59:44 no
00:59:48 as a matter of fact did the senior management team at merczheim oppose discontinuing the sale of pe on commercial grounds
00:59:58 escuelli
01:00:12 foreign
01:00:26 uh
01:00:40 uh
01:00:49 [Music]
01:01:08 uh [Music]
01:01:15 i don't think that it's that sort of reflection that took place but there was still part of the market for which
01:01:23 for which pea products were perfectly adapted and i think that was the position of the management there were possibilities of selling p products and they wouldn't push p
01:01:36 p products and they wouldn't push p rather than something else but there were still parts of the market where pe was perfectly well adapted and they were not going to stop all that part of the market
01:01:48 did the management of arconic choose simply to ignore mr verlei's warning that pe is dangerous in facades
01:01:59 in facades and substitute his view for something more commercial
01:02:04 escalating
01:02:10 [Music]
01:02:18 foreign no did you just dismiss mr verle's warning on the basis that he was a prophet without honor in his own land
01:02:32 uh
01:02:45 let me try and um ask you to interpret his smiley face then what's that
01:03:00 his opinion is technical and anti-commercial it seems smiley face i know you didn't put the smiley face there or see it's at the time mr schmidt to be fair to you but uh are you able to explain why
01:03:11 but uh are you able to explain why claude verlet uh thought that it was appropriate to add a smiley face at the end of the sentence this opinion is technical without a commercial
01:03:19 technique
01:03:47 no i can't say
01:03:50 was it that mr verde was a lone voice in our comic
01:03:55 our comic who by this time was trying to tell senior management that the use of pe on facades was dangerous but he was being ignored for commercial reasons
01:04:04 reasons is that what was happening
01:04:10 is
01:04:31 knew that pe was dangerous in facades but continued to sell it in those markets where it could
01:04:38 escalate
01:04:52 no uh now just a brief question about the uh communications between archonic and the bba in the spring of
01:05:03 archonic and the bba in the spring of 2000 and
01:05:04 2000 and uh well between october 13 and the spring of 15. just in general terms um would you have expected
01:05:16 arconic's executives when asked by the bba for information to have been responsive
01:05:34 to
01:05:48 me yes would you have expected our colleague to provide all the information to the bba that the bba asked for
01:06:02 monday yes would you have expected our comics people to point out any information that they thought might be of relevance or interest to the vba
01:06:13 or interest to the vba escort
01:06:15 escort [Music]
01:06:25 yes if our comic wasn't sure if information was relevant or of interest do you agree that arconic should have offered it to the bva and let the bba decide for itself
01:06:44 for
01:06:53 [Music]
01:06:58 yes now uh moving on then into 2016 uh let's go to uh exhibit 10 please your exhibits page 267
01:07:10 exhibit 10 please your exhibits page 267 it's met30 53157 page two six seven and in the french it's at page two six
01:07:26 five
01:07:43 the french is on the right and you can see
01:07:48 that there are a number of people that's sent um
01:08:04 good morning as you know the fire classification of the brainerd products for architecture in france present a distortion between the nfp92501 classification and its equivalent according to en13501
01:08:17 equivalent according to en13501 and then it sets out rayner bond p e riveted
01:08:21 riveted nfp92501 m1 bn 13501 c2 cs2d naught m2 by equivalence cassette system nfp92501
01:08:32 nfp92501 m1 classification en13501e classification m4 by equivalence uh rainbow fr all systems and then the classifications
01:08:43 all systems and then the classifications are set out there and he goes on to say this ambiguous situation is open to interpretation and in particular gives control offices the possibility to check the end classification
01:08:54 classification as a priority as the european classification is more complex to understand and use in your missions either you or your customers regularly specify our renamon products on large-scale architectural projects
01:09:05 architectural projects as such our alcoa architectural product clearly
01:09:08 clearly positions itself as a knowledgeable enquiry entity and therefore assumes its responsibility and image as a specialist uh if we could turn the page please
01:09:21 page please um it goes on as a result since we are aware of the very significant difference in the heating capacities of brainerd fr as against raynaud pe and the associated consequences
01:09:32 consequences we've taken the protected the proactive habit of favoring fr as the only solution in our specifications as from today this is in bold as from today i ask you to go even further and to systematically confirm in writing
01:09:44 and to systematically confirm in writing the requirement for fi for all projects on which a renaissance specification is involved regardless of the nature and size of the project for architecture if you have any questions about the application of these instructions please
01:09:55 application of these instructions please contact cloud who will give you all the necessary information to justify this choice
01:09:59 choice and advise the specifiers as best as possible towards this solution which is by far the most secure i'm counting on your active cooperation on this matter and this is the third of
01:10:10 on this matter and this is the third of may 2016.
01:10:18 it looks from this uh do you agree that there was
01:10:22 there was uh ambiguity at the very least in france about under understanding the two fire performance systems
01:10:46 yes and
01:10:53 can you explain why although this policy was adopted or at least recommended in france it wasn't adopted or recommended in the united kingdom
01:11:10 adopted
01:11:31 [Music] no i can't explain explain it one of the explanations could be that the french legislation was better known than the english legislation or other
01:11:42 english legislation or other legislations in europe
01:11:50 but aren't the circumstances which pertained in france equally applicable to the situation in the uk
01:11:58 the uk namely this ambiguity as between or mismatched perhaps as between the european system and the domestic systems
01:12:36 with the knowledge i have now for sure but i don't know whether that that was the way of thinking at the time what accounts for that difference what accounts for the difference between the way of thinking at the time and what
01:12:48 the way of thinking at the time and what you know now
01:12:59 [Music]
01:13:03 i was not at all i didn't know at all the english legislation at the time no but you you knew that there was a difference at least between the french legislation and the european legislation
01:13:15 legislation and the european legislation why did darcolic not ever consider the position
01:13:18 position of each country where reynabon 55 was sold
01:13:22 sold and consider the relative positions as between the domestic legislation there and the european legislation
01:13:55 did anybody think do you know whether they should have another look at the bba certificate and the statement in it that because
01:14:07 and the statement in it that because reynabon 55 pe had a euro class b it may be regarded as class naught for the purposes of england and wales regulation
01:14:18 regulation and think to amend it or revise it or withdraw it
01:14:26 is
01:14:54 do you accept that that also has been done exclusively
01:15:11 done exclusively we yes
01:15:16 mr chairman is now 3 15 it might be appropriate for the uh afternoon break yes very well well i expect you'd like a short break now mr schmidt so we'll take a break we'll
01:15:29 mr schmidt so we'll take a break we'll we'll resume it half past three please
01:15:33 as usual don't discuss your evidence with anyone else over the break
01:15:44 thank you
01:30:33 welcome back everyone we're going back to mr schmidt in just a moment but first we'll check that the interpreters are with us
01:30:40 with us hello interpreters hello sir we're here we're with you very good thank you very much and then we better check that mr schmidt is back with us
01:30:55 thank you very much i'm with you i can hear you and see thank you very much mr schmidt um anything you want to raise before we carry on
01:31:06 observation
01:31:10 right thank you thank you thank you very much then i'll invite mr millet to continue yes mr millet thank you very much mr chairman mr schmidt uh i want to ask you some questions now about the period after the grenfell
01:31:21 about the period after the grenfell tower fire on the 14th to 2017.
01:31:28 schmidt
01:31:34 can we start with your witness statement please uh paragraph 27 in the english at page nine and in the french page thirteen
01:31:56 it
01:32:24 and if you follow in the french the whole of paragraph 27 is on the screen in front of you we'll need to flip to the uh the next page in the english when we
01:32:36 uh the next page in the english when we get to it
01:32:37 get to it starting at the beginning of paragraph 27 if i may you say this as from the 26th of june 2017 aapsas made the decision to stop supplying renee 155 with a pe
01:32:48 to stop supplying renee 155 with a pe call for architectural use in high-rise applications a copy of the template letter used to inform its customers of this is exhibited
01:32:55 exhibited at page six and a press release confirming the position was at page nine this decision was affected by aap sas ceasing to manufacture brain upon 55 if you could turn the page in the english pe at mercsheim
01:33:06 english pe at mercsheim this was not a product of which stock was retained as it was always manufactured to order such decision was not made because a aap sas believed any bond pe inherently dangerous nor because there
01:33:17 inherently dangerous nor because there was any prohibition on its sale for use on buildings above a certain height it does however have certain characteristics which if it's used incorrectly can increase the risk of fire spread that is the core is made of polyethylene
01:33:29 that is the core is made of polyethylene which is a plastic if that's exposed to a heat source it'll burn incorrect use for example in a poorly carried out refurbishment where its use in combination with other materials
01:33:38 materials has not been properly assessed can therefore mean that in the event of a fire
01:33:42 fire the risk of that fire spreading is increased the company's assessment made very quickly after the grenfell tower of fire
01:33:48 fire was that its product had been used incorrectly as such the trust and confidence which aap sas had previously had that the supply chain was complying with relevant regulatory regimes so that its product was being used in a
01:34:00 so that its product was being used in a way which was safe was lost as a aapsas is a component part product manufacturer that does not exercise control
01:34:07 control on its ultimate use including what other material it may be used in combination with
01:34:12 with the most expeditious way for aap sas to prevent future misuse was to stop supply i've read that uh it to you in its entirety
01:34:24 entirety uh you go on to say at the beginning of paragraph 28 you just look at the bottom of the page in the french in addition to ceasing to manufacture rain upon 55 pe at merck sign in the wake of the grenfell tower fire
01:34:35 in the wake of the grenfell tower fire aap se has started to request additional information from customers as a prerequisite for any order straight product delivery of rayne bond uh let me give an
01:34:59 what was incorrect as you call it about how reynabon 55pe cassette had been used at grenfell tower
01:35:10 expression incorrect no correct
01:35:26 foreign
01:35:31 [Music]
01:35:48 we've learned very quickly that it had been combined with an insulating product that was flammable inflamable
01:36:00 [Music]
01:36:04 reflection and i think at the time that's
01:36:07 that's the essence of a reflection
01:36:14 did you ever or did arconic ever market reyna bond 55 pe with a warning that
01:36:25 with a warning that those customers buying it and installing it
01:36:29 it had to take very careful account of what insulation product they were using
01:37:04 m
01:37:12 no i don't think so yeah did reynabon 55 pe cassette not perform exactly
01:37:22 exactly at grenfell tower as the cstb european tests on
01:37:26 tests on cassette had repeatedly shown the previous 12 years
01:38:00 me
01:38:08 [Music]
01:38:13 well maybe yes but nonetheless it didn't explain why the fire didn't remain contained on the outside of the building
01:38:23 i'm not asking you about fire penetration within the building i i want you to tell me
01:38:30 me uh when we're looking at external fire spread
01:38:34 spread uh um i want you to tell me and confirm that pe 55 in cassette form performed exactly as the
01:38:46 performed exactly as the stb european tests showed it would
01:38:54 [Music] penetrate
01:39:10 performance
01:39:32 i wouldn't say exactly the same but in a similar way probably what investigations did arconic do
01:39:40 do in the 12 days between the fire on the 14th of
01:39:44 14th of uh june 2017 and the 26th of june 2017 to discover what you call the incorrect use of renault on pe55 cassette at grenfell
01:39:56 of renault on pe55 cassette at grenfell tower
01:39:57 tower uh
01:40:05 look at those
01:40:30 i can't describe it in a very precise way
01:40:35 way you have an experts report or some technical
01:40:38 technical uh investigation with a report to tell you that the external fire spread at grenfell tower was as a result of incorrect use
01:40:48 mesquiz
01:41:30 m no uh i would say no i don't think so and most of the assessments were based on public information that was published day by day
01:41:48 in the reality that grenfell so far as the use of renewborn 55 pe and cassette was concerned was an accident waiting to happen once
01:41:59 was an accident waiting to happen once it happened only then did you withdraw it from the market
01:42:07 utilization
01:42:12 concerns
01:42:26 foreign
01:42:39 [Music]
01:42:54 [Music]
01:43:05 [Music]
01:43:15 uh maybe yes but again i mean we were among the only ones to withdraw the products from the market and if we consider what our competitors
01:43:26 and if we consider what our competitors were doing at the time and it's because we felt we couldn't control the whole of the supply
01:43:37 you chain control the heard of the supply chain wasn't that all the more reason
01:43:41 reason not to continue to sell at pe which all the tests told you was a dangerous product
01:44:04 yeah i didn't understand your question sir
01:44:09 sir you you said in your answer that you felt you couldn't control the whole of the supply chain um isn't that fact the fact that you couldn't control the whole of the supply chain
01:44:19 chain a good reason to stop selling renault bond pe 55 at least in cassette form
01:44:46 set really yes now um did you know that um just shortly before the fire the bba
01:44:58 just shortly before the fire the bba project manager had decided to remove the reference to the cassette fix from the bba certificate did you know that
01:45:09 just directed
01:45:14 by
01:45:28 um
01:45:31 just before no but uh i certainly don't remember are you able to tell us why uh the bba did not decide to remove the reference to the cassette experience of
01:45:43 reference to the cassette experience of radeonborn 55pe at any earlier time
01:46:03 no no now do you remember that in july 2017 a month after the grenfell tower of fire you had communications with the bba
01:46:18 avalanche on the green field
01:46:24 yes uh let's go to uh
01:46:29 met3053157 at page 397.
01:46:46 this is a letter dated the 17th of july 2017
01:46:53 2017 to simon rowe at the bba and and if you turn to page 398 we can see a signature
01:47:06 simon rowe is at that disadvantage and that's your signature there isn't it
01:47:14 yes did you write this letter
01:47:20 no
01:47:43 um when you signed it did you read it first
01:47:58 did you read it in english or was a french translation provided to you before you
01:48:15 i read it in english and i don't believe there exists a french translation
01:48:21 can we proceed then with this letter on the basis that you understand the text in it well enough
01:48:28 enough beyonce to answer questions on the text
01:48:45 let's start on the second page of the letter at page 398 please
01:48:56 and you say in the second paragraph there we are not discontinuing the production and sale of reynavon pe however because it has non-high-rise and
01:49:08 however because it has non-high-rise and other uses we will continue to supply the product for those applications now my question is um is is that when and the manner in which
01:49:20 is is that when and the manner in which iconic told the bba that was it was going to continue to supply rene bond pe
01:49:47 [Music]
01:49:54 a
01:49:59 [Music]
01:50:25 yes we we had we still had orders on our order book and also we started
01:50:33 started sending question forms to our customers asking them to carry out extra control as to the use of pe and for us at that time it wasn't
01:50:44 and for us at that time it wasn't absolutely clear that we were going to stop using pe can we go to the same exhibit run at
01:50:55 can we go to the same exhibit run at page 389
01:51:04 please um this is an email uh from uh claude verle to simon rowe on the 20th of july
01:51:15 verle to simon rowe on the 20th of july 2017 at 13 23.
01:51:28 and if you look at the text he says uh dear simon please find below the answer sent on behalf of mr claude schmidt mr claude schmidt
01:51:36 schmidt our general manager out of the office today
01:51:46 general manager quinnipiro jordy and if you look at the text immediately below that it says dear mr hook mr rowe dear mr rowe and if you scroll down to the very bottom of that
01:51:58 the very bottom of that page page 389 you'll see there's a printed signature which is yours there cloud schmidt general manager my question is before mr verlais sent this email to mr rowe
01:52:11 mr verlais sent this email to mr rowe um did you approve this text because
01:52:29 sql data text
01:52:34 yes did you do so in english or was again was there a french translation
01:52:42 foreign
01:52:47 [Music]
01:52:52 i think it was only in english let's look at there again yeah about this without having it translated into french i'm assuming is this right that you'll be able to understand the text of your
01:53:03 understand the text of your your own text in english
01:53:25 and you say your intention in the second paragraph
01:53:28 paragraph you say your intention to alter the certification process uh so that it no longer aligns with the operation of the building codes may indicate to the general public and industry
01:53:38 industry in general the use of acmpe above 18 meters is not allowed under the current uk building codes as you know under those current codes the product can be used over 18 meters provided that the cladding system
01:53:51 provided that the cladding system achieves bre-135 all desktop study compliance is achieved we think this is important because there are a number of high-rise buildings that we understand to have been reviewed by others
01:54:01 others and found to be compliant with the code using acm pe as a component of their cladding system for our comic this is irrelevant because as noted in our 17th july letter we've
01:54:13 as noted in our 17th july letter we've nevertheless decided to discontinue supply of acn pe for high-rise applications our decision was taken out of an abundance of caution due to the inconsistency of building codes across the world
01:54:24 the world and the fact that the company does not control the ultimate design and installation of planning systems as requested please find attached our customer letter setting forth this decision given this decision we only need to
01:54:35 given this decision we only need to retain our certification for pe use below 18 meters to that end we will forward the requested sketch under separate cover now did you write that text yourself excuse me no
01:55:03 is it right that at this point you had a very detailed understanding or at least a detailed understanding of the uk building regulations because you refer to
01:55:12 refer to um for example bi-135
01:55:48 [Music]
01:55:56 for me whether i'd detail understanding no
01:56:00 no but claude valley and his team had been much more into details as far as the british legislation is concerned
01:56:15 legislation is concerned and i will attest that it was also carried out with the support of our lawyers
01:56:22 lawyers maybe but um just did are you aware or were you aware at the time of any uh successful full system tests under bs 8414
01:56:33 8414 to the bre-135 criteria involving brainerborn 55 pe in cassette form excuse
01:57:08 yes bs 8414 no and we saw earlier that claude verde thought back in 2011 at the freiburg meeting
01:57:19 back in 2011 at the freiburg meeting that reynabond pd could not pass a bs8414 test didn't we yeah
01:57:30 um
01:57:35 [Music]
01:57:46 well if we saw it before yes so what was the point of your referring here to the cladding system achieving compliance with bre
01:57:58 achieving compliance with bre 135 that's top study in fact it had never been tested under a british standard test in order to achieve the criteria under bre-135
01:58:18 systems
01:58:46 uh
01:58:52 [Music]
01:59:00 but i understand that there are various ways of obtaining the validation of a given product for a given facade
01:59:15 and the bs 84 field 14 is one of the possible tests
01:59:24 [Music]
01:59:28 is
01:59:43 so but it concerns the whole system and as far as i know uh we never carried it out uh at mercsi yeah and never carried it out before the fire at
01:59:55 never carried it out before the fire at grenfell and never carried it out either afterwards
02:00:06 no i don't think so no
02:00:11 now let's just trace through the story of the new certificate can we please turn to page 399 in this run
02:00:19 historically
02:00:25 this is an email from denise flinton weinstein
02:00:30 denise weinstein nicholas remy and she attaches a draft of the new certificate which we can see at page 400.
02:00:42 400. i'll come to that in a moment just on this email she says if you note that the certificate specifies a height limit of 18 meters for the installation of the product
02:00:50 product can you see that what's necessary
02:01:14 and if you go down to page four hundred and
02:01:17 and four hundred first of all four hundred
02:01:32 [Music] we could see that on the 25th of july 2013 uh
02:01:40 2013 uh claude verlet responds to denise and weinstein
02:01:43 weinstein uh weinstein uh copying you in as well as simon rowe do you see that
02:01:53 in weinstein
02:01:58 did you read this email at the time do you think
02:02:08 if we scroll down to the bottom of the page please we can see a list and uh there's no french version of this i'll have it translated for you into french
02:02:15 french um there are five five number uh comments can you see or five changes that mr verde suggests yeah
02:02:44 and yes did you um at the time think that claude vale
02:02:55 um at the time think that claude vale had read
02:02:55 had read the draft certificate that was being sent
02:02:59 sent carefully so that he was able to make these suggestions
02:03:12 of
02:03:19 yes i believe so let's look at the certificate then that was issued in august 2017 uh a few weeks later bba five bba six zero is 46 please that's the
02:03:31 bba six zero is 46 please that's the english version french version of arc underscore t five zeros two please
02:03:48 just expanded a little bit on the screen we could see that on page one we've now got a rather shorter building than the original building uh and
02:03:59 key factors assessed uh below the picture
02:04:02 picture in the friendships factor clear value you see it says a two down behavior in relation
02:04:29 read the french i'll read the english aloud it says uh behavior in relation to fire the panels have a b
02:04:36 have a b s two d naught or b s 1 d naught reaction to fire classification to bs en13501.1 2007 depending on the grade chosen
02:04:48 depending on the grade chosen the use of both panel grades is restricted to buildings up to 18 meters in height
02:04:53 in height unless specific conditions are met see section 7. you see that really yes and at the bottom of page 3 if we can turn to that please
02:05:12 i'll just show you a little bit more of a certificate so that you've got it mostly in mind it says
02:05:19 says a paragraph 1.3 under technical specification right at the bottom of page 3 but in the french i think it's page
02:05:28 page 4 it says
02:05:32 4 it says under paragraph 1.3 the panels are mechanically fastened to the aluminium subframe using aluminium rivets falling in it
02:05:38 in it forming an open jointed cladding system details of panel mountings are shown in figure one then if you go over the page please to paragraph 1.4
02:05:51 we can see it says the flat panels you turn the page of the french piece as well
02:05:58 well yes thank you the flat panels this is power 1.4 can be formed into cassettes with different flange widths and fixed of the aluminium subframe by means of t-slotting t-slots fitting onto pins
02:06:09 t-slots fitting onto pins do you see that and if you look at
02:06:14 footnote 1 underneath that it says the manufacturing and the use of cassettes the subframe and its attachment to the substrate wall are not covered by this certificate
02:06:27 and let me now see that the diagram is only for rivet fix the diagram for cassette fix has now gone
02:06:34 gone yes
02:06:40 yes turn that to page six and look at section seven uh in the english bottom of the page
02:06:54 and in the french i think you'll need to go to page seven uh it says 7.1 under behavior relating in relation to fire classifications for some colors of the raynerbot
02:07:05 some colors of the raynerbot architecture wall tabling panels in accordance with bsen13501 part 1 2007. are defined in the national building regulations are shown in table three these
02:07:16 are shown in table three these performances may not be achieved by all colors of the panels and the classification of a particular color should be confirmed by assessment or testing by ucas accredited laboratory and then if you turn the page we see a list of results in table three
02:07:28 list of results in table three which separate out as you can see uh uh european fire classification and national class we see that there well
02:07:44 and uh you could see st standard with great green duragloss 5000 coating fire classification bs2d naught and nothing for standard or national building regulation
02:07:55 building regulation uh and then the 2fr underneath it uh now that reference there the standard with the grey green duragloss 5000 coating bs2d naught
02:08:07 duragloss 5000 coating bs2d naught that was wrong wasn't it
02:08:20 um [Music]
02:08:31 well maybe mr schmidt but do you agree with me that the reason it's wrong is because
02:08:37 because since at least december 2014 almost four years before um p uh p e rivet uh was classified as c s 2 d naught
02:08:48 uh was classified as c s 2 d naught that's right isn't it yes and even before that arconic knew that p.e rivet was at best of class c yes
02:09:07 yes so when it says standard with a grey green duragloss 5000 coating fire classification b s2 d naught do you agree with me that that is a very significant and obvious missed
02:09:22 [Music]
02:09:58 um
02:10:23 so there was absolutely no reason for that line to even that sentence to even appear
02:10:28 appear um once again there was no will to sort of misinform because we decided to stop with pe anyway
02:10:37 was it not important to our colleague even
02:10:40 even or particularly in particular in the aftermath of the grenfell tower fire to make absolutely sure that this new bba certificate stated the fire performance
02:10:52 stated the fire performance classification of its products particularly standard correctly
02:11:08 that's definitely [Music]
02:11:17 [Music]
02:11:22 correct
02:11:29 once again we were no longer selling them but mr schmidt that's not a very complete answer is it what about somebody who wanted to know whether the renabon 55 that they'd already put on
02:11:41 renabon 55 that they'd already put on their building above 80 meters complied with the european
02:11:46 european regulatory regime and they looked at this certificate do you accept that that person reading this certificate would be misled into believing
02:11:59 would be misled into believing that standard pe with a grey green duragloss 5000 coating had a class b when in fact it didn't schmidt
02:12:32 uh
02:12:37 [Music]
02:12:46 foreign
02:12:50 yes yes
02:12:54 have you any explanation for why this certificate continued to represent standard pe is having a class b when arconic knew for a fact that it didn't
02:13:07 expect a certificate continue
02:13:12 in class b
02:13:26 [Music] uh no but i've never seen it before it's the first time seeing it on the screen today here sorry not today here
02:13:37 today here sorry not today here can you account for why claude verlet who clearly studied this document and made amendments to it did not amend that part of the certificate i've shown you
02:13:46 you which stated that standard p e had a class b
02:14:11 is 21 please meta6021
02:14:26 is 21 please meta6021 this is an email in english from claude verla
02:14:29 verla to sean o'neill at bba copied to you mr schmidt
02:14:35 schmidt uh did you time do you think
02:14:50 and it's dated the 8th of september 2017
02:14:56 yes i think so
02:15:01 very good if you look at the second paragraph uh claude vernon says to the bba in preparation for your visit we would like to share our intent to
02:15:13 we would like to share our intent to align our bba certification with our recently updated sales practices since we are no longer selling pe in the uk for architectural applications then it says in bold we will remove pe
02:15:25 then it says in bold we will remove pe from our current bba certification
02:15:31 now uh perhaps that could be translated
02:15:50 [Music]
02:16:02 to the certificate uh as amended this is the bba
02:16:07 the bba 6049 and in the french version it's because there is a french version of french translation arc underscore t503
02:16:29 thank you and you can see the date the date at the bottom is still uh august 4th of august 2017
02:16:41 go to page seven please in each version
02:16:51 again under behavior in relation to fire and we now see that only the fr standards are referred to and the pe has now been completely
02:17:02 to and the pe has now been completely removed
02:17:04 removed now um had archonic by that time decided to
02:17:09 to to withdraw all pe from the market
02:17:32 yes
02:17:35 why was that
02:17:54 [Music]
02:18:07 because we no longer wanted to confuse the market and we wanted to standardize production here in mexico
02:18:19 when you say we no longer want to confuse the market what confusion
02:18:30 [Music]
02:18:37 well let me ask the question again
02:18:43 why did arconic decide to withdraw pe from the market altogether as opposed only from
02:19:02 [Music]
02:19:18 metro
02:19:33 is it because you realize that all pe was dangerous as mr verley had been telling you
02:19:47 no no no i want to ask you one or two questions about 2018 and your dealings with the bba can we go to your exhibit 10 please at page 440 that's met
02:19:59 exhibit 10 please at page 440 that's met 30 53157
02:20:02 30 53157 four forty nine
02:20:08 [Music]
02:20:14 this is an email to brian moore uh at the bba copied to your solicitor i think and it's in
02:20:25 your solicitor i think and it's in english we don't have a french version again
02:20:28 again your text in english um you can see your signature at the bottom oil name at least again was this drafted by in english by your solicitors or was this one you dropped it yourself
02:21:06 it was drawn up by the lawyers and again did you sign it only having read the english or was it translated to you
02:21:15 you in french before you signed off on this email
02:21:19 email [Music]
02:21:20 [Music] list
02:21:24 foreign
02:21:30 i don't think it was translated very well let's look at the text it says dear brian
02:21:34 brian thank you for your email the cstb does indeed have a number of classification reports for rainerborn pe which have been made publicly available on the cstb website when the bba carried out its last audit
02:21:45 when the bba carried out its last audit on site in september 2017 we provided binders with those classification reports and underlying tests data for both rayner bond pe and fr
02:21:53 fr to the auditor who indicated to us that for the purposes of his audit he was not interested in them those documents were kept in house at our merck sign facility and would have been available to the bba during prior audits i'm happy to send
02:22:05 during prior audits i'm happy to send those documents to you now if you would like
02:22:08 like as for your other questions i i want to make sure
02:22:11 make sure we're being as transparent as we can be and i would normally have no problem answering any questions you've had given the ongoing public inquiry and other investigations in the uk however i want to make sure i'm not breaching
02:22:22 i want to make sure i'm not breaching any confidentiality or any or other obligations that i or aap sas may have
02:22:28 may have to avoid any problems i therefore think it would be best for you to speak with our lawyer teresa hitchcock at the law firm dna piper cc here she will be in a better position to answer any questions that you've had
02:22:40 now you can see that you promised to provide
02:22:45 provide the certificates to brian moore well
02:22:55 thank you can we get back to page 470 in the same
02:22:59 the same exhibit 10. that's the met same exhibit run page for 70.
02:23:13 and here's brian moore coming back to you a few days later thanking you for the email and in the middle paragraph he says
02:23:23 says and this may need to be translated to you uh
02:23:27 you uh as you have kindly offered please please send me the information you say was in the files shame to the auditor please can you let me know which members of your staff shared these files to the auditor and what was said to the auditor about the significance of them
02:23:38 about the significance of them from this i'm assuming that you have not been previously formally corresponded with the bba and notifying us of changes to the fire rating in respect of the pe and fr products please can you confirm that this is
02:23:49 please can you confirm that this is position
02:23:52 position now my quest do you need that translated to you
02:23:55 to you mr schmidt or are you happy working for me english
02:24:04 um it's right isn't it that as a matter of fact arconic did not provide these documents to mr moore at this time
02:24:28 okay did you not what did you do yourself in order to make sure that as you had promised mr moore the iconic
02:24:39 as you had promised mr moore the iconic would send the bba the relevant certificates
02:24:51 advice of my lawyers
02:24:58 [Music] and i believe that's why brian moore
02:25:09 and i believe that's why brian moore made an appointment with teresa
02:25:12 did you know that although arconic did provide
02:25:16 provide the documents relating to the fr core tests
02:25:21 tests it never provided any documents relating to the testing and classification of pe in cassette form to the bba did you know
02:25:33 they say
02:25:50 we
02:25:55 [Music]
02:26:04 yes but what mr moore wanted um was a little bit of a history didn't he he wanted to see the certificates that you had promised him given that you promised him these certificates
02:26:16 promised him these certificates why didn't you candidly just give him all the certificates and the classifications relating to both pe and fr
02:26:26 history
02:26:32 certificate
02:26:46 foreign
02:26:50 [Music]
02:26:55 because i simply wanted to have the opinion of my lawyers of my advisors
02:27:01 so is your evidence i don't want to know the content of the legal advice i just want to know the evidence is is your evidence that you didn't provide the documents that you would promise to provide to mr moore
02:27:13 promise to provide to mr moore on legal advice i'll
02:27:38 yes of course yes you
02:27:45 at page four forty first castle
02:28:00 and you say in the first paragraph there
02:28:04 we've read it before
02:28:11 you're talking about
02:28:14 uh classification reminders with classification reports and underlying tests data for both rayner bond pe and fr
02:28:23 and you say in the last two sentences these those documents were kept in house at our merck signed facility and would have been available to the bba during prior audits i am happy to send those documents to you now if you would like
02:28:35 you now if you would like that's what you told mr moore yes is your evidence that in fact you didn't send in all those documents on legal
02:28:52 advice
02:28:57 yes i believe so do you except do you know that the way the bba discovered uh all the pe cassette tests
02:29:09 uh all the pe cassette tests uh was through dr barbara lane's supplementary report to this inquiry did you know that
02:29:35 you accept that for the 12 years or say before the grenfell tower fire and for the 11 years or so before the fire that the bba had a contract with arconic
02:29:45 arconic iconic never told the bba about any of the european
02:30:17 we yes and then if we look um uh ahead in time to march 2019 please go to page five thirty of this same exhibit run
02:30:29 same exhibit run don't question
02:30:38 this is a letter from the bba to mr verde first of march 2019 in english
02:30:58 yes
02:31:02 did you see this letter at the time do you think it's good
02:31:12 no i don't think that letter ever ever reached maxime look at the first paragraph and it must be translated into french for you as we go
02:31:22 go uh mr moore uh of the bba tells mr verde i write to inform you that the above certificate that's zero eight four five one zero has been withdrawn from the date of this
02:31:34 has been withdrawn from the date of this letter as we still have not received key technical data that we requested [Music]
02:32:04 do you accept that even by the 1st of march 2019 the bba had not received the key
02:32:10 key technical data that it had requested
02:32:22 technically
02:32:26 yes but i don't know what they asked for
02:32:32 did mr verlais share this letter with you at the time
02:32:50 um
02:33:02 well i don't know exactly what the logical
02:33:06 logical uh the logic behind the various dates but
02:33:10 but if that letter was sent by post through ordinary post well it never reached back saying uh did you tell mr verlais not to send
02:33:22 uh did you tell mr verlais not to send the documents that the bba had asked for exclusivity
02:33:32 mandela
02:33:39 [Music]
02:33:46 uh
02:33:59 [Music]
02:34:14 he
02:34:19 well no because in any case i mean after grin fell
02:34:23 grin fell we asked systematically the opinion of our lawyers and once again i don't know what this letter exactly is and what
02:34:34 letter exactly is and what address it was sent to it seems to reach some address in austria but i don't know much about it did mr
02:34:45 but i don't know much about it did mr verlai tell you that the reason people had withdrawn the certificate altogether uh was because they had not received the key technical data that they'd asked for
02:35:10 monday
02:35:27 but i don't understand because i'm asked questions about some mail that never reached us in mark saying
02:35:37 never mind the mail for the moment and the austrian address the question is a simple one did mr verde tell you that the bba had withdrawn certificate zero
02:35:48 zero eight four five one zero because they had still not received the technical data
02:36:17 yes i think so and again what was the reason why the bba was not provided with the key technical data that they'd asked for
02:36:30 example
02:36:34 technically
02:36:43 i don't know
02:36:57 thank you very much mr chairman i've come to the end of my questions there may be one or two of them on reflection i may want to revisit uh and there may be questions from
02:37:08 uh and there may be questions from others
02:37:09 others uh who are observing this and have
02:37:14 been putting questions to us can i ask for the break now at this point yes i'll just explain to mr schmidt mr schmidt um mr millet
02:37:22 mr millet thinks he's got the end of his questions schmidt
02:37:30 fantastic but it's necessary to have a short break now both to enable mr millet to check that he has asked all the questions he needs to
02:37:41 to and to enable others who are observing the hearing to uh propose other questions that should be asked so we have to have a little break for
02:37:52 so we have to have a little break for that purpose
02:38:12 to i'm sorry to prolong the afternoon
02:38:18 but i'm going to ask you to come back at 10 to 5.
02:38:23 10 to 5. that's just over 10 minutes time
02:38:35 okay good thank you very much indeed ten to five
02:38:40 please
02:50:02 welcome back everyone uh we'll now find out whether there are more questions for mr schmidt but before that i better check that the interpreters are with us yes we are we can see you and
02:50:14 with us yes we are we can see you and hear you thank you thank you very much steve
02:50:16 steve uh mr schmidt are you there mr sweetheart yes i'm there good thank you very much well
02:50:25 well um we'll now discover whether mr millett has any more questions for you so mr millet uh are you there [Music]
02:50:42 do you have more questions for uh mr schmidt i do i do mr chairman but they are quite short um uh mr schmidt um you told us uh
02:50:54 uh mr schmidt um you told us uh in your evidence at a much earlier stage that
02:50:57 that uh you reported first to mr belnap and then to glenn morrison who
02:51:31 at any time when you reported to them did either of them ever give you any direction
02:51:39 direction in matters of the fire safety of products
02:51:42 products produced at merczheim [Music]
02:51:58 time no no did aap sas ever take any direction in matters of fire safety of products produced at nurxheim
02:52:11 safety of products produced at nurxheim from arconic global
02:52:19 [Music]
02:52:26 time
02:52:47 [Music]
02:52:53 of course there were discussions mainly between diana and myself on the subject matter
02:52:58 matter particularly [Music]
02:53:08 [Music] in particular whether he was going to be continued or not
02:53:14 you told us that you reported to diana pereira
02:53:17 pereira in the united states between 2016 and 2017
02:53:23 2017 uh did you sit on any global archonic global
02:53:27 global boards
02:53:36 of your
02:53:44 no no no what was your role within arconic global
02:54:04 label
02:54:09 so do i take it from that you were never employed by iconic global uh and had no sphere of operation within arconic global at all
02:54:20 arconic global at all [Music]
02:54:47 a
02:54:50 [Music]
02:55:04 well for me our clinic global at the time was a company of 30 to 40 000 people and i was not at all uh i didn't have a high level within archonic global at all
02:55:18 very well um my final question for you mr schmidt and it's a question we ask witnesses sometimes who have had a particular role or responsibility for an area of
02:55:42 operations we spent the last
02:55:49 four days going through a lot of history and a lot of documents and you've answered a lot of my questions looking at at it in the round and looking at the
02:56:00 at it in the round and looking at the whole of the history of your involvement uh at aap sas uh with rain over 155 pe is there anything uh that looking back on it
02:56:11 back on it you would have done differently
02:56:24 globally
02:56:35 [Music]
02:56:38 m
02:56:55 [Music]
02:57:07 technical event i believe that i possibly didn't sufficiently well master technical support in the course of sales it's a very more in critical
02:57:23 it's a very more in critical and it is a criticism that i make of myself
02:57:27 [Music]
02:57:32 technically already
02:57:41 sales technical support should have been in two parts two sections
02:58:02 uh
02:58:10 and the part which was really associated with fire tests etc i think it should have been
02:58:15 have been uh really placed within technical services
02:58:25 [Music] in order to make sure that the tasks were
02:58:30 were more clearly attributed
02:58:43 that's something that i did i believe a few months after grenfell
02:58:54 [Music]
02:58:58 service [Music]
02:59:08 and i believe that i simply didn't have a presence of mine to realize that this service
02:59:13 service was based upon two very different axes and that they could be separated
02:59:30 i'm going to um that concludes my questions mr chairman um it only remains for me to thank you mr schmidt very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations
02:59:42 investigations we're extremely grateful to you and we're also extremely grateful to the interpreters who have assisted us for the last four days
03:00:12 well thank you very much mr millet it's right
03:00:15 right mr smith that i too should thank you very much for coming to give your
03:00:22 evidence i'm sorry that it's taken longer than you were led to expect
03:00:33 and i'm sure that caused you a certain amount of inconvenience is
03:00:40 but sometimes these things happen and uh there it is
03:00:47 i should like you to know that it's been very helpful to us to hear what you have to tell
03:00:52 to tell us
03:00:57 and i can thank you on behalf of the whole of the panel my colleagues as well as myself
03:01:03 as myself uh for making yourself available and telling us what you know
03:01:12 [Music]
03:01:15 so your evidence is now at an end
03:01:31 thank you thank you and uh madame interpreter says thank you both very much indeed for all the support you've given us over the last week or so um i imagine it's been a quite a
03:01:42 um i imagine it's been a quite a challenging exercise and we couldn't have managed of course without you so um thank you very much indeed both of you
03:01:50 you not at all um well that concludes our uh hearings for today we will finish there
03:01:57 there and we'll start again tomorrow morning with a different witness at 10 o'clock thank you thank you all very much 10 o'clock tomorrow please