Examination of Arconic witness Mr Schmidt regarding knowledge of PE panel flammability, marketing practices, and failure to update fire classifications
00:00:11 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing as always i'm here
00:00:16 here with my fellow panel members uh mysterio estefan and mr ali akbar good morning good morning everyone
00:00:27 good morning good morning everyone now today we're going to continue hearing evidence from mr schmidt of iconic so the first task is to make sure that our interpreters are with us and can see and
00:00:39 interpreters are with us and can see and hear
00:00:40 hear what they need to so interpreters are you there we're both here and we can both see and hear you thank you very much good good morning good morning and uh next of course i have to make
00:00:51 and uh next of course i have to make sure that mr schmidt is there and he can hear us and see us
00:00:57 hello good morning mr schmidt
00:01:00 good morning good morning
00:01:05 i can hear and see you good thank you very much
00:01:08 very much now um essentially we shall carry on in the way that we were taking your evidence last week but um i think probably the first thing i ought to do is just run through the usual
00:01:21 to do is just run through the usual housekeeping matters with you so would you mind confirming please that you're alone in the room from which you're giving evidence
00:01:38 uh yes i confirm thank you can you confirm that you have no documents or other materials with you confirmed
00:01:52 yes i confirm thank you very much and can you also confirm that your mobile phone is in another room and that you don't have any uh other electronic device with you which is capable of receiving messages
00:02:18 thank you very much well as i said the procedure will be the same as it was last week
00:02:23 last week uh we shall have a break during the morning at around about 11 15 and in the afternoon um is there anything you'd like to raise with me or ask before we carry
00:02:48 i think no no good thank you very much well in that case i'll invite mr millet to continue putting some questions to you when you're ready mr millet
00:02:59 when you're ready mr millet merci beaucoup
00:03:06 good morning mr chairman good morning good morning members of the panel and good morning mr schmidt
00:03:15 on thursday i asked you about a meeting between claude verlais and frank ritter 3a luca bond in freiburg in june 2011.
00:03:30 uh
00:04:09 53158 underscore p04 page 27 in the english this is claude verlais exhibit part 4 page 27. in the english
00:04:20 exhibit part 4 page 27. in the english and in the french please uh met 3053158 underscore p04 page 24.
00:04:34 you follow in the french while i read the english this is an email of the 30th of june 2011 at 9
00:04:43 2011 at 9 20 from claude verlet to gee shydecker
00:04:54 another he says we should be able to meet as soon as possible for a half-hour meeting about the fire tests carried out on the reino bong pe
00:05:05 bong pe in cassettes in 2008 at a meeting i stated that pe was in danger of becoming
00:05:11 becoming or for architecture in western europe in 2011 we're not there yet but almost there the classification obtained for the renault bomb pe cassettes is the
00:05:23 for the renault bomb pe cassettes is the same as that of the competitors i.e f and therefore not suitable for use on building facades m4 in france for example a meeting before tuesday if possible
00:05:35 before tuesday if possible would be good because that's the day i see f ritter in fribolo to talk about it now my question having shown you that document mr schmidt is if guy shy decker was
00:05:47 schmidt is if guy shy decker was in gishai decker was informed that claude verlet was meeting with 3a do you agree that it is likely that you would have known about that meeting as well
00:06:04 so
00:06:20 no not necessarily can we go to
00:06:26 fet3053158 underscore p04 page 34 please this is claude verle's exhibit but there is no uh
00:06:35 is no uh french version of this the original is in german
00:06:38 in german and that for those who want to see it is at page 31 but i don't want to go to it um english please and i'll ask madame translator please to translate this is an email from claude
00:06:49 translate this is an email from claude valet to peter frelich as you can see on the 8th of july 2011 subject visits ce marking freiburg
00:07:00 subject visits ce marking freiburg and he says uh peter i need to show that to gsc cs and rq on thursday can you please send me your comments
00:07:10 comments thanks claude and at the next page if we just go down to page 35
00:07:18 page 35 i'm sorry i'll stop there and get it translated
00:07:28 into
00:07:55 and if you look at the attachments you can see that there's a visit report and please go to the next page page 35 where we can see what's attached and there it is that's the visit report we looked at last week
00:08:10 visited
00:08:19 can we go back to the previous page of the email please where claude verle says i need to show that to gsc stroke cs and
00:08:31 i need to show that to gsc stroke cs and rq on tuesday can i ask you is gsc gee shy decker
00:08:53 lq is that laura kikivez there's written r.q
00:09:06 it's robert quatrocky my mistake and thank you does this email tell us that the visit report of the meeting in fryeburg was shown to you
00:09:20 know
00:09:27 [Music]
00:09:35 anyway i don't remember it
00:09:39 now you told us on thursday that you believe that products with the french classification m1 could be used on a facade
00:10:02 page 82 lines 23-24 for our purposes uh we saw in the email just now and we can go back to it if you like uh perhaps we should um in the french
00:10:15 uh perhaps we should um in the french met
00:10:17 met 158 page 24. this is the same sorry this is the same email run
00:10:25 email run as we were in this one here we have all the screen coming up
00:10:44 uh looking at the paragraph uh that starts in the middle of the classification obtained
00:10:52 obtained or in french la clasma can you see that la france look says the classification obtained for the reynobond pe cassettes
00:11:03 obtained for the reynobond pe cassettes is the same as that of the competitors ief and therefore not suitable for use on building facades m4 in france for example
00:11:12 example how
00:11:26 um
00:11:44 [Music]
00:11:51 p55 was classified m1 throughout its existence at least to my knowledge would you agree that you were wrong when you said or if you said that a club or f product uh
00:12:04 that a club or f product uh could be used on building facades
00:12:22 i don't believe that i said that would you agree with me that's to be to be clear then that a class e or f product could not be used on a building facade
00:12:36 class
00:12:50 do you agree that the 2011 european classification test for reyno bond pe cassette
00:12:58 cassette demonstrated that reynobon 55pe in cassette form was unsuitable for use on facades of high-rise buildings
00:13:17 from cassettes
00:13:32 you
00:13:44 [Music]
00:13:48 no i didn't confirm that either i think it depended on the regulations and as i don't know all the regulations i can't confirm that how could how could reynabon pe in cassette form
00:13:59 cassette form which obtained an f classification in the european tests be safe for use on any facade
00:14:10 okay
00:14:14 european
00:14:35 [Music]
00:14:54 [Music]
00:15:10 well the risk control can be carried out in different ways on a facade i already mentioned that last week depending on the product used in the system different countries in europe address the risk in different in
00:15:21 address the risk in different in different ways
00:15:25 do you agree with me that reynaud pe in cassette form should never be used or should never have been promoted by arconic for use on facades of high-rise buildings
00:15:36 facades of high-rise buildings whether or not the european standards 13501 applied in a particular country
00:15:52 for a
00:16:06 foreign
00:16:16 could i hear the question once again do you agree with me that reynabon pe in cassette form should never have been used or promoted for use by arconic on facades of high rise build whether or
00:16:29 on facades of high rise build whether or not
00:16:30 not the european standards 13501 applied in a particular country
00:17:16 foreign
00:17:26 i'm sorry i still don't understand the question a different way much more simply is
00:17:34 55 pe in cassette form gets a european f how would it be safe to use at height anywhere
00:17:42 anywhere sea by san francisco
00:17:59 specialist
00:18:05 [Music]
00:18:20 [Music]
00:18:26 specialist of facades all for sale systems but once again i think controlling risks and choosing the right materials
00:18:32 materials uh even this kind of product could be used can we go back to the email please in the french
00:18:56 that the classification f for reynabon pe except form is and i quote therefore not suitable for use on building facades
00:19:32 i don't have an answer well do you agree or do you disagree
00:19:45 i don't agree don't agree why don't you
00:19:50 agree
00:19:55 because i'm not sure what claude vlad is writing in his email here well if claude verle is correct that because reynold pe cassette
00:20:09 european f
00:20:12 it could not be suitable for youth on building facades if he's right about that then why was arconic
00:20:20 arconic continuing to sell reynabon 55 pe in cassette form for use in building facades
00:20:27 facades uh we'll see 2011.
00:21:00 okay
00:21:08 was right and saying that but if he was messily
00:21:21 but if he was messily which is the premise of my question why was arconic continuing to sell reynabond 55pe in cassette form for use in building facades from june 2011
00:21:56 a
00:22:08 because for example the product in france was m1 and the french legislation accepted to use m1 products for facades and he says it's m4
00:22:20 sorry i didn't hear you he says in his email but it's m4 maybe this
00:22:35 but he's the one that establishes that link
00:22:39 link was there any discussion within our conic
00:22:42 conic at this time june 2011 about whether or not
00:22:47 not reynabon 55 with the pe corps having obtained a european class f should any longer be sold for
00:23:19 no i don't remember
00:23:34 foreign
00:23:43 [Music]
00:24:11 [Music]
00:24:23 so i'm thinking in particular of a document that was a 2017 in documents so we're talking about an environment which is competitive we're looking to see also what the competition does
00:24:34 see also what the competition does and later on if you look at french technical opinions you can see that some competitors were saying that uh pfra2 could have m1 or m0 classification
00:24:46 m1 or m0 classification um and they hadn't taken fires into consideration until 2017 looking back at the email as a reference
00:24:57 looking back at the email as a reference in 2008
00:24:59 in 2008 if you look in the second paragraph you see that
00:25:12 we yes you recall being present at such a meeting
00:25:19 a meeting present you
00:25:31 no i don't recall
00:25:35 i'm going to turn to a fire uh in dubai in november 2012. before i do i ought to give a trigger warning
00:25:45 warning in this next section again we're going to be showing pictures of a fire in a tall building so for those who are watching who don't want to see that they should look away from the images please
00:26:08 can we please go to your exhibit 10 page 32 met three zeros five three one five seven page thirty two and in the french
00:26:16 french uh it's uh page twenty eight of the same exhibit run let me tell you seven thirty 32 the english and 28 in the french
00:26:34 in the english it's the bottom of the page in the french it's the middle of the page
00:26:37 the page we see an email from robert
00:26:43 on the 27th of november 2012 to alain flackon
00:26:47 flackon claude verlais and others it's writers until i think that alan flacko had become sales and marketing director on the 1st of august 2012. yes
00:27:02 it is
00:27:18 sweet yes i'm going to show you these emails uh
00:27:24 uh and you'll see from the uh the french original that you are copied in on all of them
00:27:28 of them your name doesn't appear on as copy on the english it's important that people understand that you are copied in on these emails
00:27:59 sounds like something our customers make fyi
00:28:11 a critique on a
00:28:26 and the text says for your information and just if you follow in the french please i'll read the english information acm facade caught fire in ace in uae read the article there is a link to
00:28:38 uae read the article there is a link to bbc
00:28:39 bbc photos there is a protective film but there is no way to see the brand i think it is worth digging into and if you look at the very bottom of the page
00:28:50 you look at the very bottom of the page there's an article embedded and it says in english on both sides of the screen cladding blamed in skyscraper fire monday november 26 2012.
00:29:22 if you turn the page please onto page 33 in the english 29 in the french you can see there's an embedded video which we can't play because that's an image and i want to look at the english
00:29:34 image and i want to look at the english text below please under the caption and the translator could translate the english please fireballs under the header well i'll start actually at the top uh
00:29:46 actually at the top uh exterior clatting i think you need uh even on the french probably need the a little bit higher up yes
00:29:53 yes bottom of page 28 top of page 233 exterior cladding may be responsible for accelerating a fire that ravaged portions of a 34 storey residential building in dubai
00:30:04 storey residential building in dubai according to reports
00:30:34 it says the fire at tamweel tower started near the top of the building and moved down raining down flaming pieces of the building onto the ground
00:31:01 and if you look under the header fireballs fall ground it says there were no reports of injuries
00:31:09 injuries however as the flames which started the building scaled down the structure they sent huge chunks of the building and debris to the ground
00:31:30 um
00:31:45 building cladding as fuel while the cause of the blaze was under investigation initial reports indicated the building's exterior cladding may have been the culprit behind the
00:31:56 may have been the culprit behind the blaze spread hello
00:32:21 now we've seen that this article sent internally in our comic including to you although it's in english would you have read it at the time do you think
00:32:52 yes probably do you actually recall reading it at the time do you think it is
00:33:05 [Music]
00:33:17 [Music] i may not have read it in detail but i certainly read it over
00:33:28 but i certainly read it over quickly you would have understood the basic
00:33:31 basic event and the cause of the fire from this article wouldn't you don't
00:33:49 [Music]
00:33:53 the cause of the fine no but what happened
00:33:57 happened yes now can we go to page 32 of this exhibit
00:34:02 exhibit in the english 28 in the french we can see claude verlet's response
00:34:17 in the french you can see that claude verne responds to
00:34:31 robert quattrocchi and
00:34:48 but he says hello this has to do with good bond pe knowing that all pe composites react in the same way
00:35:00 goodbye
00:35:12 receive it robert quatrochi was the plant manager wasn't he
00:35:25 directed
00:35:28 yes so can we take it from this that at a senior level within our comic within aap sas
00:35:35 aap sas uh it was known that pe composites will burn
00:35:39 burn like the tamweel tower fire don't
00:36:02 yes now you say in your witness statement
00:36:06 statement at paragraph 30.3 and i'm not going to take you
00:36:10 take you to it that it may be possible that these emails were discussed at a meeting you cannot recall such a discussion nor seeing the emails before
00:36:21 seeing the emails before the positions
00:36:24 of
00:36:52 no i didn't remember but i can see that i'm copied in so at least i must have seen them can we take it that you don't remember arconic doing anything in response to
00:37:03 arconic doing anything in response to this fire
00:37:05 this fire escamp
00:37:20 foreign
00:37:25 [Music]
00:37:30 in response to this file specifically no probably no we have seen no evidence in the record that arconic did anything
00:37:41 did anything in response to this fire is that correct
00:38:03 certainly why did our comic not do anything
00:38:07 anything in response to this fire
00:38:16 report
00:38:30 um [Music]
00:38:44 the
00:39:00 [Music]
00:39:12 [Music]
00:39:26 [Music]
00:39:40 alexa um well i think that at the time um we may have had some questions regarding the pe panels uh it's difficult to explain
00:39:53 pe panels uh it's difficult to explain but we had a certain perceptions of the different legislation and it wasn't always very clear
00:40:01 clear and it's something that i've already mentioned we had competitors we carried on selling p and on the specific tyre on this tower even if uh
00:40:12 even if uh the product uh was a pe component i mean the fire remained limited to the outside of the building
00:40:30 did you conduct an internal investigation at arconic into whether reynabon 55 pe in either cassette or rivet might
00:40:41 pe in either cassette or rivet might perform in the same way as we saw the acm performed in the tamweel tower fire yes
00:41:18 no i don't think so why not
00:41:43 because the product was known as being flammable
00:41:50 was it known as being that flammable
00:42:00 inflammable
00:42:14 a
00:42:27 [Music] someone subject well in any case that's what the firearm the dubai tower seems to suggest
00:42:38 so why not do an internal investigation to see if reyna bond 55pe might perform in the same way
00:42:56 uh
00:43:00 [Music] but it's because i think that was in any
00:43:13 but it's because i think that was in any case
00:43:13 case uh written by claude valley in a previous email all pe um component behave in the same way
00:43:23 way yes and so if all pe components behave in the same way arconic therefore realized didn't it that
00:43:32 that reynabon 55 pe would perform in the same way as the tamweel tower fire me don't
00:43:52 me really yes so why did you continue to sell it after november 2012.
00:44:21 [Music]
00:44:33 because this product could still be sold for
00:44:36 for usage on buildings
00:44:41 why did you continue to sell this product after november 2012 having seen these images
00:45:02 to
00:45:18 because first the fire was confined on the outside of the building
00:45:25 [Music] the conception
00:45:35 continue the risk therefore you may think that the way the facade had been
00:45:43 had been designed was able to contain the risk
00:45:57 i see let's move to 2013 uh there was another cladding fire in the uae
00:46:06 the uae in april 2013 at the al hafiz tower in sharjah
00:46:26 now i want to go please to uh your exhibit
00:46:30 exhibit at page 48 met 30s 53157 page 48.
00:46:40 and this is a long email uh on the 9th of may 2013. it's all in english and you can see that richard gieta of 3a
00:46:54 that richard gieta of 3a composites wrote to barry wingrove on that date 9th of may hi barry and i'm going to
00:47:02 going to read in english parts of it and ask the translator to translate to you start hi barry you may or may not have seen the recent press coverage
00:47:13 the recent press coverage of a building fire in dubai clad in aca
00:47:19 richard guitar barry windgrove
00:47:48 having taken the time to investigate with my colleague
00:48:08 and then he says in the second paragraph in italics and i will read it to you and then i'll ask the translator to translate it to you
00:48:17 you he says the trouble is that the cladding system here in particular but all over in general using pe is like a chimney
00:48:25 a chimney which transports the fire from bottom to top or vice versa within shortest time however since most sprinkling units are never being tested they for sure do not work when they are needed if you buy a new car and only
00:48:37 needed if you buy a new car and only turn the key after five years you'll be surprised how little your vehicle will move
00:48:40 move here the same the problem is
00:49:24 and then the next paragraph he says the worst of all in our field of composite panels
00:49:29 panels capital letters you do not get what you see
00:49:32 see double exclamation mark the mulk holding people are responsible for the huge damage in this part of the world they since a very long time promote fire rated composite panels with a white core
00:49:45 rated composite panels with a white core which when being tested turns out to be a recycled pe core burning like paper half of the country is full of this rubbish due to price we have taken random samples and done a live test in bangkok in front of architects they
00:49:57 bangkok in front of architects they almost
00:49:57 almost fainted indeed this panel is a whole sheet and burns fiercely
00:51:07 and three paragraphs from the bottom richard gita adds this again the perils of using cheap acm alternatives have been exposed as you are aware our standard core
00:51:18 are aware our standard core is the plus fr mineral core achieving class b
00:51:21 class b s 1 d naught according to en13501 part 1 unlike other acm producers
00:51:32 alternative assembly
00:51:44 [Music]
00:52:01 now let's go up to page 47 please this and again i'm afraid there's no french translation for this mr schmidt
00:52:11 statement no here we can see in the third email down we can see that deborah french sends this email on do you see to you
00:52:22 this email on do you see to you to peter furniture verlay and anna flaccon
00:52:26 flaccon do you see that
00:52:29 the deborah french
00:52:40 and she says just to make you aware i sent this link over to claude w last week concerning a bbc report covering a fire in uae using acm richard guitar aluco
00:52:52 in uae using acm richard guitar aluco bond rep in the uk is emailing all fabricators explaining that the luca bond is now using a fire core
00:53:38 and then she embeds a bbc item and then continues
00:53:48 would welcome any comments straight statement we have left the fire at our standards so i can communicate this to our relevant customers
00:54:02 [Music]
00:54:09 mr schmidt i've shown you that in some detail so far my question is do you remember receiving this email
00:54:21 yes did you read the email she was forwarding yes
00:54:29 the one from richard guitar richard getter
00:54:35 yes now what what did you think what were your thoughts when you saw the email from richard guitar which deborah french was sending to you
00:54:47 reflection said email
00:54:59 [Music] my first reaction was i think to check what the person was saying
00:55:27 [Music]
00:55:32 um because i i through experience and also through comments emanating from the market i knew that aluco bond was still selling a lot of
00:55:45 was still selling a lot of pe on the market
00:55:50 [Music]
00:56:01 [Music]
00:56:11 i mean here for example luke bond uh what's written is that for a commercial with a commercial intention they put forward the fact that the standard product
00:56:22 the standard product is a fire retardant product
00:56:28 it continues
00:56:33 but as i said before they carried on saying selling pe
00:56:39 now deborah french told us don't need the reference but it's day 89 page 49 lines 22 page 50 line 3. we don't need to translate the reference uh debra french told us that she had had
00:56:51 uh debra french told us that she had had conversations with people at murkheim uh uh that uh arconic uh was going to continue to sell
00:57:00 to sell pe do you know can you remember whether deborah french did have conversations like that with anybody at merck's time but not deborah french nozadi uh
00:57:49 no i mean it's not a question of recalling it but i don't think she had a direct discussion of this with me and i don't think she talked to other people about it
00:58:04 i don't know whether she talked with others now you said before you just told us that luca bond carried on selling pe the question i have is this um
00:58:15 the question i have is this um it looks from the email that luca bond were now selling fr as standard my question is did our colleague discuss switching to selling
00:58:26 selling fr as standard
00:58:32 bond continue
00:58:42 [Music]
00:59:10 so first we're not sure on the basis of that email that aluco bond decided to sell
00:59:15 sell far as the standard product
00:59:26 [Music]
00:59:59 and i think that starting from the beginning of 2014 we informed all our sales people all the commercial people to communicate on the performances of pe
01:00:13 to communicate on the performances of pe and the five performances of b
01:00:17 why did arcolic not start offering renai bond 55 in fr as standard
01:00:28 in fr as standard from april 2013 onwards
01:00:51 [Music]
01:00:54 globally
01:00:58 [Music]
01:01:01 because it implied carrying out a more global
01:01:06 global reflection on the subject and understanding how the market was evolving
01:01:12 evolving why didn't you do that
01:01:23 because we needed time to think about it i imagine
01:01:30 deborah french told us that commercial reasons were at least part of the reason why arconic did not proceed after this fire to offer
01:01:42 after this fire to offer fr as standard do you agree deborah french
01:01:50 represents
01:02:04 no
01:02:08 how much time do you did you need to think about whether starting to offer fr
01:02:19 commercial
01:02:38 [Music]
01:02:50 [Music] well on one hand and i repeat we don't know if luca bond
01:03:02 know if luca bond offered it as standard and we always try to respond to the needs of the client
01:03:09 look at debbie french's 13th of may 2013 email
01:03:14 email cep40
01:03:28 so now i'm sorry to say there is no french translation of this email uh so i'm going to ask madam translator to read the text uh in french to you and i'll tell you
01:03:41 uh in french to you and i'll tell you what it is it's an email from debbie french deborah french 13th of may 2013 to cep neil wilson jeff blades and roy fuster
01:03:52 neil wilson jeff blades and roy fuster subject
01:03:53 subject bbc report uh acm in
01:04:24 and before i ask for the translation of the text i'll just tell you that other copies of exactly the same text went to other fabricators in the uk yeah
01:04:46 i should tell you just in case you didn't know the cep was a fabricator and in fact fabricated the
01:04:53 the acm for grenfell tower
01:04:58 fabricators
01:05:05 translator if you would please translate the text
01:06:59 uh my first question is did you read this email in draft form before it was sent by deborah french
01:07:12 french no no were you involved in any discussion about the principles reflected in this email participated
01:07:26 in
01:07:30 no no were you aware of this email at the time
01:07:40 it
01:07:46 do you know uh from whom deborah french well let me put it a different way do you know whether deborah french needed authorization to send this email
01:08:07 no no
01:08:21 says mr schmidt just focusing uh on the penultimate paragraph she says at this stage we will continue to offer both pe and fr core and
01:08:34 to offer both pe and fr core and continue the close working relationship we have with our approved fabricators to make sure the right technical support rayner bond specification of materials are being used and installed on rayna bond projects now if we could
01:08:46 on rayna bond projects now if we could leave that on the screen please uh mr schmidt can we please go to your uh witness statement at paragraph 92
01:08:56 92 in the uh um english and i'll read it in the english and then i'll show you the french because we can't have three documents on the screen at once a paragraph
01:09:08 the screen at once a paragraph paragraph 92 at page 29 your witness statement met 3053187 page 29
01:09:18 29 paragraph 92
01:09:22 would you like me to interpret just the previous section that's okay i want to show people paragraph two and i'm going to read it read the sentence i or passage i want to put to
01:09:33 sentence i or passage i want to put to him from paragraph 92
01:09:40 and i think we need over the page please page
01:09:43 page 19 at page 30.
01:09:49 in the last part of the last sentence it says
01:09:54 says aapsas is simply a supplier of one component product which may be used in the start of a building and if i could show him the french of that please the french original at page 13 paragraph 92
01:10:06 original at page 13 paragraph 92 last half of the last sentence in that paragraph
01:10:15 page 13 paragraph 92
01:10:28 french version met3048338 h13
01:10:37 there it is there it is not that's it uh and i want to ask him to look please at the french version and a lot it is actually a full sentence in this french version a-a-p-s-e-s
01:10:50 in this french version a-a-p-s-e-s if he could read that sentence please
01:11:06 [Music] the last sentence in other words the very last sentence right very old sentence
01:11:20 yes i can see it now i've shown you that and i've shown you the paragraph in the email
01:11:28 going back to the email please
01:11:39 is what deborah french says in the in the email
01:11:43 the email in the paragraph i read out to you which starts at this stage correct
01:12:19 no it was never our policy
01:12:24 [Music]
01:12:34 them in fact very simply we didn't have the compensate competency internally to be able to advise the clients on the types
01:12:43 types of cause
01:12:46 of cause personally technically
01:12:58 nobody in the technical team could have taken into consideration the whole of the
01:13:02 the facade system in order to be able to advise on the appropriate product
01:13:12 then if you're right why deborah french said what she said in that paragraph if it wasn't true
01:13:29 no i can't explain now we've seen from the record that deborah french sent this message in identical terms at least to two fabricators cep which is this one and simcoe
01:13:41 cep which is this one and simcoe now and we can also see that none of these
01:13:45 these well this this message uh does not communicate anything about the dangers of pe
01:13:51 of pe evidenced by the fire in the uae
01:14:19 my question is why why did her message not say anything here about the dangers of using p e corps hello
01:14:40 i don't know do you know why this message did not tell fabricators that in its cassette variant
01:14:51 variant reynabon 55 pe had achieved a euro class e
01:15:22 55 with a pe core in cassette variant for use at height even after this fire in april 2013.
01:15:34 continue
01:15:50 france
01:15:59 [Music] uh
01:16:12 [Music]
01:16:18 uh
01:16:24 [Music]
01:16:35 [Music]
01:16:44 well i don't believe the question was asked i think one can say that arconic wanted to carry on saying it's selling acmpe but one must remember that from a general point of view it's very in very few cases that uh we're aware
01:16:56 in very few cases that uh we're aware of the final destination with regard to the usage of the product why not simply attach a health warning when selling rainerborn 55 pe at least
01:17:09 when selling rainerborn 55 pe at least in cassette variant after this time
01:17:13 period
01:17:28 epoch
01:17:42 say
01:17:51 [Music] um
01:18:06 [Music]
01:18:12 well i don't believe that our um uh competitors did it uh ten years later it is a legitimate question to raise but at the time it wasn't so obvious
01:18:27 but at the time it wasn't so obvious why wasn't the fact that reynold von pe 55 with a cassette variant had achieved a class e in the european fire test sufficient to make it obvious
01:19:05 i don't have an answer another convenient moment mr chairman yes i think it is mr minute thank you well
01:19:12 well mr schmidt i think it's time we had a short break so we're going to take that now
01:19:17 now we'll resume please at 11 35 our time
01:19:36 thank you very much we'll see you merci beaucoup 11 35 over 12 hours thank you
01:35:22 welcome back everyone we are ready to continue with mr schmidt's evidence but first i better just check that the interpreters are with us are you their interpreters
01:35:33 are you their interpreters yes the interpreters are with you sir thank you i can hear you and see you thank you and uh mr schmidt are you there
01:35:40 there mr schmidt
01:35:45 i can see you and i can hear you thank you thank you very much and you're ready to go on i hope
01:35:53 yes thank you then mr millet when you're ready thank you
01:35:59 can we go please to met 3064988 at page one two two in the english same time
01:36:08 time please add to french page 119 same exhibit now if we go to the bottom of page one two two in the english topic page one one
01:36:20 two in the english topic page one one nine in the french we can see an email from isabel moises again
01:36:27 this time the 25th of april 2013. can you see that it is
01:36:38 can you see that it is can you confirm for me that under en13501
01:36:43 en13501 pe riveted system equals bs2d naught cassette f fr riveted system or cassettes bs one d naught thanks isabel
01:36:59 yes now um we can see the reply from claude verle at the bottom of page one two one in the english and one one eight in the french please my name is
01:37:10 and uh we can see claude valley uh comes back to her at the bottom of page one
01:37:17 page one twenty one
01:37:22 leave the french on the screen because you can see that there in the english please scroll to 122 at the top uh he says under en13501 reyna bond is really one pe is classified as e
01:37:33 classified as e rendezvous fr is classified as b s1 d naught
01:37:37 naught we do indeed have a historical report classifying the renault pe riveted system as bs2dnau but we no longer wish to use it on the market
01:37:46 market it should be noted that the class e for the pe composite has become the market standard for the national classification systems our competitors talk about pe as being m1
01:37:57 being m1 for example thanks claude and then if we go up to english page one two two one and a little bit further at the top top of the screen on page one one eight in the french
01:38:09 the french we see isabel moises goes back to claude verle on thursday the 25th of april 2013 and she asks in the question and in the french is mila casificacion and in english
01:38:21 mila casificacion and in english it's but is the b s 2 d naught classification for riveted valid or not that's her question and if we go above that still on page one two one in the english
01:38:32 one two one in the english uh still on page one one eight in the french ford valley tells her by response it's valid because it's contained in a in an official report however the tests
01:38:43 in an official report however the tests that we conducted are not really reflective of the riveted system in general
01:38:47 general so alcoa with the market in quotations market classification and does not use it anymore preferring a class e regardless of the system above that uh you could just see that
01:39:00 above that uh you could just see that isabelle moises comes back to claude verle same day 25th of april or the date is cut off on the french and she says is this official the official is this official as we are
01:39:12 the official is this official as we are still talking about bs2d naught and at the top of page one two one
01:39:19 one and in the french at the bottom of page 117 you can see that claude verlet responds
01:39:25 responds at 17 57
01:39:30 at 17 57 the top of page one two uh one two one bottom of page one one seven uh and you'll need to go to the top of page one one
01:39:41 page one one eight sorry no there it is sorry 1755. uh he says it's valid because it's contained in an official report
01:39:52 contained in an official report uh i'm so sorry i'm looking at the wrong part um yes that's right he sends her a response top of page one two one
01:40:00 two one top of page uh 117. he says no we have not communicated bs2d not from the beginning of the year at the request of cs
01:40:12 the request of cs and in the french just look at it together
01:40:15 together uh if you've made a translator if you could just read the french textbook
01:40:34 yes
01:40:38 did you request uh that b s to d naught should not be communicated uh from the beginning of 2013
01:41:13 [Music]
01:41:16 um
01:41:24 [Music]
01:41:41 we're in 2013 and i think it follows an exchange of mail that took place in 2012 and in
01:41:48 and in which claude valley was trying to meet me and well i know i don't know whether an exchange took place but i know that i didn't meet him
01:41:59 place but i know that i didn't meet him that i know there was no meeting are you saying that this request so far as you can recall it was the logical conclusion of the discussions uh in the middle
01:42:11 of the discussions uh in the middle and the failed meeting in may 2012.
01:42:38 i'm not certain but that might be a possibility can you help us why you asked that our comic not even communicate the fact that rivet uh had a class b rivet
01:42:49 rivet uh had a class b rivet maybe not cassette but rivet had a class b
01:42:54 escape
01:43:10 no no can we go back to the email run please and have uh back where we left off
01:43:19 off and if we bottom of page 120 in the english
01:43:23 english bottom of page 117 in the french we see um that at the bottom in the english isabelle moyeses says
01:43:34 in the english isabelle moyeses says to glorverle but that's not what miguel gets told is that right for question marks and you can see the french equivalent of it
01:43:47 and above that claude burleigh comes back 1801
01:43:50 back 1801 and he says yes it is even i even told him about that before everyone else when i was in spain the thing is that d i t still includes b s two d naught for p e so he makes use of that
01:44:15 and then above that in the english and just read along the french on the right as well moises comes back to the valley and says yet we still won't stop proposing the riveted product in p e question marks
01:44:38 that's the thing it's a gap in the certification that we continue to make use of
01:44:42 use of if you're reporting certification continue
01:44:49 exchange i think runs uh out at this point where she says you can just see the french on the right hand side i'm afraid it's been cut off a bit but we can move across to look at the full
01:45:00 we can move across to look at the full of the the full
01:45:04 she says thank you uh she says to him so i cannot say otherwise
01:45:13 no word missing actually uh right uh well my question is having shown you the entirety of the email run were you aware that at the start of 2013
01:45:24 were you aware that at the start of 2013 the tests being carried out did not reflect the riveted system in general well my
01:45:52 not at all it looks from the email run that uh uh that um
01:46:06 uh claude verlet was exploiting or continuing to make use of a gap in the certification and can you explain that
01:46:22 expertise
01:46:47 i don't understand the whole chain of email but i think we're talking about spain or portugal maybe here
01:47:01 [Music]
01:47:09 and what i understand is that the d.i.t which is probably some accreditation system in one of these countries
01:47:18 in public
01:47:24 [Music]
01:47:27 published something saying that p got the classification b in the rivet form
01:47:40 and i imagine that miguel is probably a client
01:47:43 client utilize
01:47:47 system miguel relies on that d.i.t for the riveted system do you know why arconic was permitting the sale of pe rivet
01:47:59 the sale of pe rivet uh as if it was a class b in light of your request we've seen that our conic not even communicate that rivet fixed pe
01:48:10 rivet fixed pe had a euro class b
01:48:16 permitted
01:48:47 but i don't think there's any communication taking place in that chain of emails
01:48:54 can you tell us the answer to my question
01:48:59 question sorry sir i couldn't hear your question there was a weird sound we were able to answer my question i'll ask it again from your own recollection do you know why our comic
01:49:10 recollection do you know why our comic was permitting the sale of p.e rivet as if it was class b in light of the request you had see we had seen earlier from you uh not to say that it had a
01:49:22 from you uh not to say that it had a class b
01:49:26 repetitive
01:49:54 uh
01:49:59 [Music]
01:50:23 hello hello interpreter can you did you hear that last answer yes i'll take over i think there might have been a technical issue um i would just like to say that we
01:50:34 um i would just like to say that we don't sell the product uh in a riveted form we sell it in a platform
01:50:46 you carry on mr schwartz continue mr schmidt
01:51:03 [Music]
01:51:13 and i don't believe once again that in that email the bs2d0 is promoted for reno bond pe
01:51:24 just at line seven there the witness said flat form not platform just to be clear
01:51:30 clear yes that's right moving on um mr vale says in his witness statement that paragraph 6 they need to go to it that by early 2013 he wanted to
01:51:43 go to it that by early 2013 he wanted to have a
01:51:44 have a low classification or rayna bond p e namely a class d for both rivet and cassettes
01:52:00 um
01:52:15 class d for the formative asset and he says that he wants to do that in order to differentiate more clearly between the fr product and the pe product
01:52:28 the fr product and the pe product to be
01:52:42 my question is were you aware of that testing strategy as described by claude
01:52:49 claude claude questions
01:52:56 strategies
01:53:09 [Music]
01:53:19 i believe that if it was discussed with management it would have been discussed with
01:53:23 with commercial management do you know why policy was not followed quite simply to tell customers the real
01:53:35 to tell customers the real classifications for rayno bond 55pe namely cassette was an e and rivet wasn't really a b
01:53:45 politics
01:53:49 [Music]
01:53:52 classification
01:54:06 b
01:54:25 the rivet test showed a classification a b
01:54:29 b classification over the years so why were you so reluctant to market it as having a v classification
01:55:01 [Music]
01:55:06 i think in 2013 certainly clear claude wanted to
01:55:10 wanted to um show a clearer differentiation between p e and f r e
01:55:16 and f r e final
01:55:19 [Music]
01:55:30 foreign
01:55:33 and in the end when exactly he didn't finish the sentence i don't know when he actually received the classification or obtained calculation with regard to ee
01:55:44 ee obviously and i wanted to add also officially
01:55:54 was the idea to stop referring to class d for reynabon pe
01:56:02 uh so that people would no longer uh so that people would no longer started to start asking difficult questions about whether the cassette
01:56:14 questions about whether the cassette variant
01:56:14 variant was truly a b d c
01:56:26 d
01:56:35 no i don't believe so why not just market fr
01:56:38 market fr on the basis that it was safer than pe
01:56:56 because there was a request for pete there was a demand for pe and a demand for fr
01:57:03 but they weren't the same they didn't have the same safety so why not just market fr as the safer option
01:57:22 for
01:57:33 [Music]
01:57:44 well i think that this development took place even beginning of 2014
01:57:50 we'll come to that uh i want to turn to another test on the pe cassette in 2013 mr schmidt can we please go to uh met3053158
01:58:06 can we please go to uh met3053158 underscore p02 page 38 and at page 36 in the french same exhibit run two separate pages
01:58:25 and if we look at the english version at the bottom of page 38 and the french version at the bottom of page 36 at the same time
01:58:42 we see here an email from benoit forest for rest of cstb on the 7th of november 2013 to feed bondholm
01:58:53 2013 to feed bondholm who i think is a technician isn't he at arconic
01:59:00 yesterday
01:59:12 uh and if you just follow in the french while i show you the ink show the english he says hello mr von trong don't translate it just
01:59:23 von trong don't translate it just follow through the french please hello mr von moore first sbi tests on the product renault on pe have been completed and then he sets them out in the box you can see on the right in the french
01:59:34 the right in the french if we turn the page page 39 into english we can see the equivalent in english and we can see the sbi test there and the table at the top there in the english bottom of the page in the
01:59:45 in the english bottom of the page in the french is the results of the rivet pe uh rivet fix pe uh and uh underneath the uh sbi test we see behavior
01:59:55 behavior can you see and you'll need to flip the page of the french to the compost mold at the top of the page behavior cs2d naught on a test and then underneath that uh we have um that's the and that's the
02:00:07 uh we have um that's the and that's the riveted system as you can see yes
02:00:21 under the single burning item test uh renault 55 pe with rivet fix has obtained a class c yes
02:00:34 system 50 afternoon c we yes were you aware that from november 2013
02:00:43 2013 rivet fix had tested as a c-class product not a b yes
02:01:13 i don't know whether we asked for class c or whether it was the result of the test that
02:01:18 test that made it see the
02:01:35 is
02:01:46 [Music]
02:02:02 play
02:02:16 specific well very simply at this time claude valde i think wanted to obtain a more well how can i say it a more negative um result but i don't know
02:02:27 negative um result but i don't know whether that's that demonstrates this specifically but did you have a discussion at the time with claude verlet about seeking a more negative result
02:02:44 negative and underneath uh the uh c2 behavior result we see another box a reynabon pe cassette system
02:02:58 a reynabon pe cassette system and uh it says in the long rectangular box on the right of that underneath the figure
02:03:04 figure thr and smuggler figures stopping the test at 800 seconds out of 1260 seconds for widespread ignition best possible classification e ignition test
02:03:16 test and then you see underneath that um uh benoit forest says following these results can you tell me what you want me to do
02:03:25 to do you can just read the text underneath the box there mr schmidt yourself in the french um he says you have the possibility to continue with the ignition test in order to envisage an e-classification
02:03:36 e-classification for both systems or to continue with sbi but only in order to obtain a for the riveted system since cassette does not pass lastly you can also decide to stop
02:03:46 to stop we remain at your disposal for any further information and await your decision
02:03:53 are you aware at this time that for the third time now uh we saw it in 2005 we saw it in 2011 for the third time now the cassette test was stopped for widespread ignition
02:04:05 was stopped for widespread ignition were you aware of that at the time
02:04:31 [Music]
02:04:36 um
02:04:40 i can't be affirmative i can't remember did you know that arconic in fact decided to proceed with that ignition test
02:04:49 test and obtained an
02:05:05 no now take it from from me that the c classification was not recorded in any final classification report at the time
02:05:16 final classification report at the time as opposed to the test report which we have
02:05:18 have the results of
02:05:39 what it looks to the inquiry to have happened on the records is that it is that at this point arconic decided to classify all p e chord rhino bond whether rivet
02:05:50 all p e chord rhino bond whether rivet or cassette as class e
02:05:54 b
02:06:12 my question to you is is that correct is it correct that our conic decided to classify
02:06:17 classify all pe called renault bond rivet or cassette
02:06:21 cassette as class questions
02:06:46 [Music]
02:06:51 once again it's a decision that was taken
02:06:55 taken at a commercial level but i think it is right
02:06:59 right you say you think you think i am correct in my
02:07:02 in my putting to you factually
02:07:10 factually yes i think so let's turn to january 2014 now and we go to claude vale's exhibit part four page one three five
02:07:21 four page one three five met three zero five three one five eight underscore p04 page one three five that's the english and if we could also have up at the same time please uh the french version at one forty same
02:07:32 uh the french version at one forty same exhibit number different page page one forty
02:07:44 yeah and we can see here english on the left french on the right that here is a certificate ra
02:07:52 zero three 13033 three uh to standard european standard en 13501 and
02:08:01 13501 and if you look down to the text you can see the commercial brand reynaborn55pe without identifying whether it's rivet or cassette can you see that
02:08:31 look at the date a date of issue january the 31st 2014 can you see that
02:08:43 yes go to the bottom of the page you'll have to scroll up a little bit on the french version because it's cut off on the screen at the moment you can just just
02:08:56 and i'll read the english if you follow along please in the french master schmidt
02:09:00 schmidt it says the document zero ra three three uh dated january 31 2014 cancels and replaces the document ra11
02:09:12 cancels and replaces the document ra11 0032 dated february the 9th 2011 and the document ra ra-050005a dated january 7th 2005.
02:09:25 dated january 7th 2005. and that last reference is of course the reference to test 5a from january 2005 on the riveted system
02:09:51 if we scroll down to the next page in the english page place 136 and in the french page 141 please we can see the product description
02:10:08 it says just follow along with me composite panel consisting of a low density
02:10:13 density polyethylene core covered on both sides of a thermally bonded pre-coated aluminium sheet systems riveted or cassette can you see that in description
02:10:33 and if you scroll down to the next page please page 137 in the english page 142 in the french we can see the classification under section 4.2
02:10:46 under section 4.2 and it says fire behavior e smoke production not applicable flaming droplets or debris not applicable and then the large box classification e and then underneath that
02:11:00 e and then underneath that it says the classification is valid for the following product parameters
02:11:21 following end use conditions sweetly conditioned utilization
02:11:29 underneath that first bullet point there says riveted or screwed system and cassette system on metal substructure discussion
02:11:45 now i've shown you this classification report my question is do you agree that the effect of this classification report is that from the 31st of january 2014
02:11:58 is that from the 31st of january 2014 arconic had a formal classification report
02:12:02 report stating that all renault bond p e whether rivet or cassette was classified as an e
02:12:09 as an e according to the european standard
02:12:14 classification
02:12:18 left
02:12:43 yes you see this classification report at the time
02:12:57 did anybody tell you at the time january 2014
02:13:01 2014 that reynaud bond 55 pe was now classed as an e according to the european standard yes
02:13:14 reynolds
02:13:28 no is that something that you would have expected at the time to have been told excuse me
02:13:38 excuse me [Music]
02:13:42 foreign
02:13:52 [Music]
02:14:04 [Music]
02:14:13 so my answer is not necessarily what i understand is that uh there was a desire from the commercial management to
02:14:24 commercial management to make it known that p had that e-class for both systems so i believe that is something that emanates from maximum from the maximum management
02:14:40 from maximum from the maximum management at this time uh end of january 2014 mr schmidt is right isn't it that the bba certificate zero eight slash four five one zero
02:14:51 zero eight slash four five one zero for reyna bond 55 was still in circulation yes
02:15:06 certified
02:15:14 yes
02:15:18 and it's right that that certificate still represented that all reynar bond pe
02:15:25 pe achieved class b in the european tests
02:15:58 i believe that the certificate was still reminding of the original test in 2005. yes and my question is why why was it
02:16:11 yes and my question is why why was it not updated to state now that rayner bond 55 in
02:16:34 [Music]
02:16:44 um
02:16:48 [Music]
02:16:54 i'd find it difficult to answer i don't believe that there was a desire to hide anything i think it's just something that was forgot forgotten and nobody thought or establishing a link with the bba
02:17:07 establishing a link with the bba certificate have you yourself conducted any kind of investigation within our comic
02:17:13 comic to seek to understand how it could have been the case that notwithstanding the classification e
02:17:20 e from january 2014 the bba certificate remained unamended
02:17:51 why is that
02:18:04 because we didn't establish we didn't express a link between the two things in my view
02:18:12 my view i don't understand how there could have been no link between the vba certificate stating that renault bond 55 pe had a class b
02:18:24 that renault bond 55 pe had a class b on the one hand and your knowledge on the other archonics knowledge on the other that it didn't but instead had a class e clearly there's a link between the two isn't it
02:18:36 a certificate
02:19:04 a
02:19:17 [Music] uh
02:19:32 uh
02:19:40 that question of ling is not exactly what i meant but i believe that on one side
02:19:45 side arconic and the commercial team uh wanted to inform about the p having a class e but on the other end no one thought of establishing the link
02:19:58 no one thought of establishing the link with the
02:19:58 with the bba certificate
02:20:03 [Music]
02:20:16 and besides i think it's something that would have been very easy to update during a bba audit on that sort of question
02:20:25 question mr schmidt was it not our colleague's responsibility to make sure that the bba certificate remained up-to-date and accurate mr schmidt responsibility
02:20:42 certificate
02:20:50 yes according to the cell's condition that we talked about last week so please explain to us how it was the bba certificate was
02:21:02 how it was the bba certificate was allowed
02:21:03 allowed to become inaccurate out of date and as a result i suggest to you
02:21:12 you fundamentally misleading in the sense that
02:21:15 that it would lead the reader into serious error
02:21:24 hello
02:21:39 oh
02:22:02 [Music]
02:22:14 [Music] the
02:22:22 the [Music]
02:22:42 well i mean there are two things i would like to say first i don't think that there was any desire to do what you're saying and secondly in the case of in the bba certificate
02:22:54 in the case of in the bba certificate there's a number of sentences that remind the reader that whatever fire certification the product
02:23:03 product has got people still have to carry out various
02:23:07 various checks and controls
02:23:12 let's move then on to 2014 a few days later february 2014. can we go please to claude verle's exhibit
02:23:22 exhibit part four page one three four at met three zeros five three one five eight underscore p zero four page one three four now there's no french equivalent to this i'm afraid so
02:23:33 this i'm afraid so we'll take this slowly
02:23:44 a lot more and you can see that this is a an email from claude verlet on the 3rd of february 2014.
02:23:58 hello
02:24:13 least commercial antenna commercial also to the iaf least commercial renault board
02:24:21 board commercial renault born and the subject is new fire european fire class for reynabong
02:24:36 and the email says dear colleagues and in bold it says please finding close the new fire reaction test report for renault bond architecture pe
02:24:47 renault bond architecture pe in accordance with en13501 norm but fire achieved classification is equal
02:25:00 [Music]
02:25:14 and then he continues the previous b class report done for reynabon pe in riveted system can no more be used from now
02:25:57 and one is the test in english and one is the test in french
02:26:03 and to be clear the test is the uh certificate uh dated 31st of january 2014 which we've just seen and which says that all reynold 55 pe is classified as an e
02:26:17 55 pe is classified as an e don't test
02:26:29 my question for you is would you have expected
02:26:32 expected deborah french as our conic's uk sales representative at the time to have known that that certificate was relevant to her market
02:26:44 relevant to her market my question is
02:27:14 is
02:27:28 commercial
02:27:32 [Music]
02:27:57 uh i think that uh from a general point of view i would have uh waited for all the commercial team to start discussing that with their customers because
02:28:08 customers because it was public and our desire was through the sales representative to inform the market
02:28:17 so does that tell us that you you expected deborah french at the time to communicate this message to her uk customers
02:28:38 certainly are you able to explain why she didn't yes
02:28:49 no i can't explain but
02:28:57 [Music]
02:29:20 foreign
02:29:34 elmo
02:29:39 i mean i did see i did see a document i believe it might be
02:29:46 be something that was joint document to an um something from cloud valley it was an email i think that was sent to taylormade
02:29:59 it was include valleys deposition called the
02:30:08 sorry the interpreter made a mistake it's a document you find in claude verley's
02:30:12 verley's uh witness statement and i believe it's an email that was sent to taylor maxwell explaining the new class and i think therefore
02:30:23 therefore there was some information that was passed on to the market even if only partially
02:30:37 [Music]
02:30:45 uh the attachment uh to that email what that fire test you've just shown previously
02:30:54 now deborah french told us in her evidence that she did not appreciate the relevance of this information to her market uh and carried on using the
02:31:05 on using the bba certificate because that was what she had understood the message from merck signed to be that's what she told us at day 88 page 140
02:31:15 140 line 22 to page 141 at 9 16.
02:31:43 my question is to the best of your recollection was deborah french told by merkstein to continue
02:31:53 continue to use the bba certificate in and after february 2014.
02:32:39 [Music]
02:32:55 i wouldn't be informed in detail about all of this but i find it really difficult to understand how on the one side the commercial management
02:33:06 the commercial management would uh inform that the product has got a classification e and in the same time the same commercial management would ask one of the sales people to carry on
02:33:19 one of the sales people to carry on using a document that pretends
02:33:32 certified
02:33:41 to knowingly carry on using a bba certificate that gives a classification be so can you account for why it was that deborah french was not
02:33:52 deborah french was not told expressly not to put forward the bba certificate anymore
02:34:11 no no now we know from many documents seen in the inquiry and from this french's evidence that on the 23rd of april 2014 deborah french sent the rhino bond bba
02:34:24 deborah french sent the rhino bond bba certificate to the cladding subcontractors harley working on the grenfell tower project
02:34:59 my question is would you have expected that at that point deborah french would have noticed the claim that reynaborn 55 pe had a class b
02:35:24 be
02:35:28 yes it's probable would you have expected deborah french to her told her her customers that although the certificate said class b in
02:36:03 that all sales representatives knew and understood that the euro european classification for this product had been significantly downgraded from a b
02:36:14 b system
02:36:19 on the event so
02:36:39 [Music]
02:36:48 uh
02:36:58 well we have the claude vale males that sends a message to the whole sales team saying that it had a class e and that he was available for further
02:37:10 and that he was available for further [Music]
02:37:16 information and i believe the management the management of the sales team was also available in order to be able to answer any questions what system was in place for making sure
02:37:29 what system was in place for making sure keep
02:37:29 keep catching up and keeping up with sales representatives so as to make sure that they understood that the european classification for this product had been downgraded
02:37:44 to
02:38:15 [Music]
02:38:22 i don't think there was a system but i think that claude's mill saying that we had
02:38:25 had a b and then it was downgraded to uh e was sufficiently explicit you see it wasn't enough simply to tell deborah french
02:38:36 deborah french the results of this test why not also tell her
02:38:40 tell her not any longer to use the bba certificate
02:38:54 a certificate
02:39:08 october 2014 uh because we can see that uh the designation for all reynold bonders pe did not last for the whole of that year which was
02:39:20 for the whole of that year which was translated in october
02:39:31 can i show you what claude vella says in his statement please met 30 531 one nine zero page 21 paragraph 70.
02:39:43 and the french version of this statement
02:39:47 we'll see 26 in the french paragraph 70 in both cases please
02:40:04 and he says here at the beginning of the paragraph
02:40:16 three zero is five three one nine zero page twenty
02:40:32 let's just look at the very start of that paragraph together you and the french i'll read the english paragraph
02:40:41 it says the next en 13501 testing that i organized on reynobon55pe was later in 2014
02:40:50 2014 it had become clear from discussions within aap sas and the wider market that there was a desire to again have separate classification reports for the pe rivet and cassette variants to more accurately
02:41:02 and cassette variants to more accurately reflect
02:41:03 reflect the classifications that each had in practice obtained i just want to ask you about that sentence
02:41:11 sentence two sentences first question who in the wider market had a desire for a separation of rivet and cassette pe respectively
02:41:28 generally
02:41:43 have the same desire to separate out again the classifications as between cassette and rivets do you know exclusives
02:41:56 classifications
02:42:00 no isn't tipper no i don't know you involved in this decision at all
02:42:08 no i'm sorry discussions so rephrase the question
02:42:20 i don't believe so absolutely
02:42:24 do you know whether the classification of
02:42:28 of uh rivet pe as class e was affecting sales
02:42:33 sales exclusive classification
02:42:38 class uh
02:42:49 i have no idea i never saw the link let's look at the classification report
02:43:00 let's look at the classification report please uh the english is at arc50397 and french is an arc underscore
02:43:16 and we could see on the first page we've got we've got the test on the left uh the french version uh
02:43:27 uh the french version uh is uh
02:43:30 not the right reference um so i think it's one three in fact my fault i'm sorry arc underscore uh
02:43:42 arc underscore uh t4013 yes thank you very much uh and we can see on the first page that its classification ra 14 0 339 to the european standard
02:43:55 0 339 to the european standard and if you look at the bottom of that page uh it has the date of issue december the 4th 2014. can you see that
02:44:16 the basis of this classification report is
02:44:19 is at met 30158 305 page 155 and 146 respectively means french go to those
02:44:30 respectively means french go to those for our reference purposes if you look at page four in this document please in both languages
02:44:41 i should have pointed out commercial brand it says renamon 55 pe riveted system
02:44:46 system can you see that okay
02:44:55 and now if you go to page four you'll see
02:44:59 see the classification
02:45:04 paragraph 4.2 classification there's the box fire behavior c smoke production s2 flaming droplets or debris d naught and then underneath that
02:45:16 naught and then underneath that classification cs2d naught and then underneath that 4.3 field of application this classification is valid for the following product parameters and if you look at the last
02:45:28 parameters and if you look at the last bullet point do you see there it says various colors
02:45:36 and again cooler in the french so it could be various colors some colors do you see that
02:45:44 decolon yes the second sub header end use conditions it says this classification is valid for the following end use conditions riveted or screwed system on metal
02:45:55 riveted or screwed system on metal substructure
02:46:08 again did you see this uh classification report at the time do you think it's gonna review the classification epoch
02:46:16 no no i don't believe so uh would you accept that what this would mean for the uk market at the time is that neither cassette nor rivet would meet the european
02:46:27 rivet would meet the european classification requirement for surface spread of flame uh
02:46:34 uh the european classification requirement for surface spread of flame namely class b
02:47:04 b yes do you know why the classification result was not immediately disseminated to the uk
02:47:15 immediately disseminated to the uk market
02:47:18 classification
02:47:33 it's at met 30 53158 underscore p028119 in the english in the french page one one three of the same exhibit
02:47:44 same exhibit yeah you are not necessarily at all
02:47:59 we have the french version up as well please thank you very much and you can see that
02:48:04 see that this is a fire reaction test report but also dated the fourth of uh december and if you go to page
02:48:19 or you can see the very bottom of the page
02:48:38 this is modification of the document for elimination of the riveted system document ra13033 fourth december 2014 cancels and replaces document ra 13033
02:48:51 document ra 13033 31st of january 2014.
02:48:56 uh we go to page 121 please in the english and 115
02:49:03 and 115 in the french
02:49:09 and we can see there that
02:49:14 there's a reference to the november 2013 test on the cassette system you see that
02:49:24 alice said
02:49:29 it appears to be a a reissue of the 2013 class e
02:49:34 class e test report for cassette but this time to state that it only applies to
02:49:52 uh
02:49:59 classification report now for completeness at met3053158 underscore p02 page 105. it's the same exhibit run page 105
02:50:10 page 105 in the english in page 109 in the french
02:50:23 in the english in page 109 in the french that's it and on the left hand side english right hand side french just follow along in the french please
02:50:30 we could see here's the report number ra130333
02:50:34 ra130333 the date if you if you look at the bottom or towards the bottom of the screen there again is the 4th of december 2014 and if you go to page 107 sorry pause that
02:50:45 that cassette system it says in the middle of the page commercial brand renault born 55
02:51:02 111 in the french we can see the classification again the paragraph 4.2 classification in the upper box
02:51:09 upper box fire behavior e smoke production not applicable claiming droplets or debris not applicable classification e you see that
02:51:31 to show that this classification test all the test data was provided to deborah french uh but she left in december 2014 and wasn't effectively replaced until
02:51:42 and wasn't effectively replaced until 2015
02:51:43 2015 peter friele i think operated in her role in the middle of that during that period do you know from your own knowledge whether this classification report was sent to the uk
02:51:54 classification report was sent to the uk marketing team
02:51:58 hello
02:52:26 is
02:52:36 no i don't know you know
02:52:47 [Music]
02:52:54 but i'm not sure if it would have been sent if the previous uh test uh had already given rise to class e
02:53:03 well can you help me what was the point of
02:53:06 of do you know and if you don't know you don't know what was the point of separating out the two classifications for rivet and cassette respectively and they're not sending the new classification reports for each product
02:53:18 classification reports for each product out to your sales teams
02:53:22 elementary
02:53:42 no i don't know now i want to look with you at the documents in circulation uh in the grenfell supply chain
02:53:50 chain in the early part of 2015 now 2015. can we go please to cep three zeroes five three three
02:54:01 document
02:54:04 univo the grenfell debut
02:54:10 this is provision sorry can we have the reference again please mr miller
02:54:17 mr miller is five three three seven four
02:54:29 yes thank you this is an email from neil wilson of cep who was the fabricator of the cassette panels for application on the
02:54:40 cassette panels for application on the facade at grenfell tower
02:54:43 neil wilson fabricated
02:54:52 she sends this email to mark stackley of holly
02:54:55 holly subcontractors on the 7th of january 2015.
02:55:06 and you can see that there are some attachments everywhere here the ps4 and do you see that as the third attachment
02:55:18 do you see that as the third attachment it says reynabon bba do you see that
02:55:23 you know
02:55:27 yes and the text of the email says please find attached details of the kh-35 cassette system we use and all the other info we have for rain able
02:55:53 and the attachments that he sends we've we can see this from a document reference i shall give you but we
02:56:03 but we we can see that it's still the same 2008 original bba certificate take that from me
02:56:10 me and that's cep cep3053377 so no need to go to it
02:56:15 go to it my question is can you explain why the original bba certificate which says that reynabon 55pe had european class
02:56:28 reynabon 55pe had european class b was still circulating in the market as late as january 2015.
02:56:38 certificate
02:56:53 no no
02:57:00 can we look at another of the attachments which he sends which is the uh renault bond brochure this is at cep3053376 please
02:57:14 brochure this is at cep3053376 please examine
02:57:18 your bond uh this is uh the discover new perspectives brochure uh which doesn't have a french
02:57:29 brochure uh which doesn't have a french translation we've already seen a copy of this mr schmidt
02:57:49 if you could just go down to page 16 to confirm that
02:57:59 it's written vertically on the right hand side
02:58:11 and if we go back to page 13 now please page document and look at the right hand side of the page and blow that up so that everybody can see that we can see that at the top
02:58:22 can see that we can see that at the top under certification and again mr schmidt this is the document we saw last week it says that reynabond p e obtains a b s 2 d naught classification
02:58:35 obtains a b s 2 d naught classification pursuant to certificate r a 0 5 0 0 0 5 a which is the 2005 5 a rivet test
02:59:16 do you agree with me here's my question do you agree with me that claims made in this document for european
02:59:23 european classification for pe as a class b were by january 2015 substantially out of date
02:59:40 success
02:59:58 yes there's a document dates from 2008
03:00:02 can you explain why your customers are still
03:00:06 still being still using this ancient piece of marketing literature that is not only substantially out of date as you've agreed but now materially wrong
03:00:22 continuous
03:00:38 [Music]
03:00:43 no i didn't think that document was still available
03:00:50 somewhere do you mean by that answer that you didn't know that substantially and materially wrong marketing literature was still in circulation in the uk market
03:01:03 circulation in the uk market excuse me
03:01:25 [Music]
03:01:32 a [Music]
03:01:40 i don't know at what time that literature was given to cep in that specific case
03:01:56 [Music]
03:02:13 i can't believe that it was given at that time
03:02:17 that time to cep when cep send it to its uh client or to harley ollie facades well mr chairman uh it's now just gone one o'clock
03:02:28 one o'clock and there's a few more questions on this topic to pursue with this witness but i'm not going to finish that in a reasonable time before the necessary break should we stop there then mr millet
03:02:39 then mr millet um mr schmidt we're going to have a break now so that we can all have some lunch
03:02:44 lunch we'll come back at 2 o'clock please
03:02:54 please don't talk to anyone about your evidence over the
03:03:05 thank you
03:03:24 you