Continuation of evidence from Claude Schmidt, former President of Arconic's architectural products division, regarding marketing of Reynobond PE cladding panels despite knowledge of fire risks.
00:00:03 afternoon everyone welcome back i'm going to start by checking that our interpreters are with us and can see and hear clearly we are with you and we can see you and
00:00:15 we are with you and we can see you and hear you well done thank you very much and next uh mr schmidt are you here mr schmidt
00:00:24 he can hear you and i can see you okay thank you very much now mr schmidt we're we're going to continue taking your evidence but before we do can i just run through the housekeeping again in particular can
00:00:36 the housekeeping again in particular can you um
00:00:37 you um confirm that you don't uh have any device in the room with you that is
00:01:11 and you and i take it you are on your own in the room
00:01:18 yes very good well are you ready to carry on
00:01:25 yes thank you very much then i'll invite myself
00:01:28 myself to ask more questions
00:01:33 so when you're ready mr millet thank you mr chairman uh mr schmidt i'd now like to move a little further into the
00:01:40 into the 2010. and
00:01:43 2010. and a particular line of communication between iconic and one of its customers can you please go to uh claude valley's exhibit part four
00:01:56 uh claude valley's exhibit part four page three that's m e t three zeros five three one five eight uh p underscore p zero four page three
00:02:24 now um the communication here is between isabel moises and mr costa a gentleman called mr costa
00:02:35 and mr costa a gentleman called mr costa and they're talking about a project in uh july 2010 and we have this email run here uh running up the screen uh in fact we
00:02:48 uh running up the screen uh in fact we have the
00:02:50 have the uh the um i don't think we have the french version at all um they say we'll have the english version up and then it can be read to you
00:02:59 you uh translated into french and so bear with me in the english um on page three we can see isabelle moises
00:03:07 moises sending mr costa a certification on the first of july 2010 by email recommendation we see it on isabel costa
00:03:39 and that's the email at the very foot of the page you just see that you see that yes and
00:03:51 if you look at the email immediately above that bruno costa comes back to her on the same day
00:03:57 same day and says uh isabel sent the rhythm riveted system we need the cassettes
00:04:10 that
00:04:26 if you go to the bottom of page two scrolling up to the bottom of page two we can see isabelle moyes's reply to mr costa the same day
00:04:35 same day at 1108.
00:04:40 mr
00:04:48 the only one we have the euro norm is based on the system but it's not great soon the cassette system will be better kind
00:05:08 uh now we haven't seen the attachments to these emails but would you agree with me looking at it it looks as if isabelle moyes has sent the classification report for test 5a
00:05:22 the classification report for test 5a i wanna
00:05:36 can you explain on what basis uh isabel moyes is told mr costa that the cassette system or soon the cassette system will be better
00:05:47 system will be better do you know about
00:06:03 the next email up is from bruno de coste bruno costa to isabelle moyeses again same day first of july 2010.
00:06:22 and bruno costa says to her isabel i think that's best but if i present this solution it's like not presenting anything so the system is going to be a cassette
00:06:33 so the system is going to be a cassette system do you not have the cassette system that's certified for fire even if it's out of date kind regards brunei
00:06:46 presents
00:07:00 know and if you scroll up a little bit further to the second email from the top please
00:07:13 so you can see that isabel moises uh goes to claude verlais a few days later
00:07:21 later on monday july 2010
00:07:28 contact
00:07:41 bruno absolutely wants the certificate fire
00:07:44 fire for the pe for the cassette system we forwarded the euro norm riveted system
00:07:50 system and mentioned that since it is the most unfavorable system it is also acceptable for the cassette system unfortunately that's not enough he wants a document can you please take care of it
00:08:01 it thank you for your help if you have any questions
00:08:04 questions do let me know now just before i go to his response i just want to ask you you can see there i'm sorry can i just can i ask you to translate
00:08:15 can i just can i ask you to translate please of course
00:08:18 absolutely absolutely
00:08:43 now i want to ask you before i show you claude verle's response in the second line there you can see that isabelle moyes's
00:08:54 you can see that isabelle moyes's tells claud verla that she has told the customer but since it's the most unfavorable system it is also acceptable for the cassette system
00:09:03 system that's her understanding of what she said
00:09:06 said my question to you is was that statement that she'd made to the customer
00:09:14 customer policy
00:09:48 no can you explain why it is that a sales representative such as isabelle moyes is
00:09:58 moyes is is telling a customer that the riveted system is the most unfavorable system
00:10:05 system and therefore the euro norm would be acceptable for the cassette system in circumstances where eur where our connect knew that that was not true
00:10:14 not true escalating representative
00:10:45 [Music] no i can imagine that there was still this understanding that the rivet system was worse than the cassette system
00:10:56 but that's simply an interpretation interpretation
00:11:02 yes sitting there today and not an understanding of this at the time of this document yes
00:11:12 what
00:11:26 let's look at mr verle's response then to isabel moyesis three minutes later can we go
00:11:33 can we go above the email we've just been looking at to the next one up our examinations
00:11:47 says to isabel moises on the 5th of july 2010 at 10 55 is a it's hard to make a note about this because we're not clean i'll call bruno to discuss the
00:12:00 clean i'll call bruno to discuss the situation with him and let you know the outcome
00:12:08 is
00:12:22 is
00:12:30 the question is what does claude vale mean when he says we are not clean
00:12:36 concluded
00:12:49 in any sense sorry could you repeat your question
00:12:53 question it broke up a bit our comic was not clean
00:12:56 clean at this time in any sense
00:13:09 no no can we go to page four in this email stream please uh which is met three zeros five three one five eight underscore p04
00:13:21 three one five eight underscore p04 page four
00:13:25 and here is an email uh which we can see sent by claude vale to bruno costa copied to isabelle moises on the 5th of july 2010
00:13:39 on the 5th of july 2010 where he says bruno has discussed i send you in attachment the document concerning the system we choose for the renault
00:13:47 renault pe bar certification we'll go regards cloud you can translate that please
00:14:00 document
00:14:07 and immediately below this email is the document that is sent page five
00:14:19 and again it's in english i'm afraid we have no french translation ask madam translator to translate for you uh it's a letter on reyno bond headed note paper sent to mr bruno costa
00:14:32 headed note paper sent to mr bruno costa from merczheim on 5th of july 2010 and it says this mr costa reiner bond pe is classified b s 2 d naught in accordance with the
00:14:44 b s 2 d naught in accordance with the european
00:14:45 european standard en13501 this test was done on the riveted system which exposed the core of the material to the flame contrary to the cassette system where
00:14:56 contrary to the cassette system where the core is protected by the returns alcoa decided to check the behavior of its composite panels in this worst case of system exposed fasteners on flat panels
00:15:07 panels and to use it for all the other systems
00:16:16 my question is when mr verlais said that the rivet system was the worst case of system that was false wasn't it
00:16:32 the system is
00:16:41 no no well mr schmidt we spent a lot of time yesterday looking at test 5a and test 5b
00:16:53 yesterday looking at test 5a and test 5b what test was there to your knowledge that
00:16:56 that showed that cassette the cassette fixed variant
00:17:01 variant of rainer bond 55 pe performed
00:17:31 to my knowledge there wasn't one no on the contrary test 5b showed that rayner bond 55 pe and cassette variant performed a great deal worse in a flyer
00:17:44 performed a great deal worse in a flyer test
00:17:56 the system right yes
00:18:03 and you know of no other test between 2005 and 2010 which might show that cassette
00:18:09 cassette performed better than rivet do you yes
00:18:27 claude verle told mr costa that this worst case of system
00:18:34 well this was a worst case of system referring to the rivet system that was false
00:19:02 that's what i also understand yes and from the documents i've been showing you you must accept i suggest to you that mr
00:19:13 you must accept i suggest to you that mr verley knew that this was it
00:19:20 would be accepted
00:19:44 [Music]
00:19:57 what is difficult well i believe that if i interpret it yes but it's also for claude vale to explain it
00:20:10 and i imagine that that's part of his witness statement i don't know
00:20:18 well i'm i'm afraid mr schmidt we won't get the opportunity to ask mr burleigh about it as you know try asking you about it do you accept
00:20:29 try asking you about it do you accept that in telling mr decosta rivet was worse than cassette for the purposes of fire performance mr verley lied to him
00:21:05 really yes did you know that mr verlais was lying to customers like mr de costa escobar
00:21:42 costa
00:22:24 sorry so the answer did she dicker know that mr vela was lying to customers like mr costa
00:22:29 mr costa um mr schmidt answered he didn't know but sorry it was inaudible the first time around very much and mr schmidt are you able to account for how
00:22:40 how mr verlais perpetrated a deception on mr costa
00:22:44 costa on your watch in other words at a time when you were president of this organization
00:22:51 xpk uh
00:23:06 you
00:23:12 let's go to 2011. now did you know that in 2011 six years after the initial tests five a and five
00:23:22 and five b we looked at before arconic then performed
00:23:26 performed two further european classification tests on reynobon 55pe
00:23:34 hello
00:23:49 or reynold bonds
00:23:53 yes let's look at the uh first of those tests for pe rivet shall we this uh is at arc5038
00:24:04 this uh is at arc5038 in the english and there's a french translation for you that alrc underscore t4028
00:24:16 examination
00:24:22 and can we please have both of those at the same time thank you very much uh mr schmidt again uh english version on the left french version on the right
00:24:35 for the record this as you can see is test ra110032 and this is a fire classification report under european norm
00:24:58 is
00:25:05 uh and you can see the number ra 11 0 32 there
00:25:09 there and if you go down the page please you can see
00:25:13 can see that the date of issue at the bottom of the page is the 9th of february 2011. do you see that even
00:25:25 halfway down the page uh just just above the date
00:25:29 the date uh it says a commercial brand renault 155 pe
00:25:33 155 pe riveted system
00:25:40 uh if we go to the page do you see that do you see that right yes now if we go to page four please
00:25:47 please uh this document uh in both versions we see uh the classification itself under paragraph four and under paragraph 4.2 classification
00:25:59 and under paragraph 4.2 classification that could just be pointed out classification classification thank you fire behavior b smoke production s1 flaming droplets or
00:26:10 smoke production s1 flaming droplets or debris d
00:26:10 debris d naught and the classification in the big box
00:26:14 box b s one d naught you see that classification bs and just by way of reminder to you the
00:26:26 and just by way of reminder to you the 2005
00:26:27 2005 test 5a in fact produced a fire classification of b s 2 d naught so this one uh is in fact better isn't it
00:26:49 you know
00:26:59 smoke production with regard to smoke production indeed the smoke production in 2005 was s2 and
00:27:05 s2 and now at the end of 2010
00:27:18 yes and now let's look at the cstb test for pe cassette um
00:27:31 uh and if we can go to the exhibit up for that first of all uh we can see that there was a test
00:27:43 uh we can see that there was a test uh in 2011 on the reign of on pe cassette my first question is do you know why iconic waited six years before
00:27:54 iconic waited six years before instructing cstb to perform another test on raymond 55 pe cassette
00:28:23 no no in fact and mr verlet makes this set of statements in his witness statement and i'm summarizing in march 2011
00:28:35 2011 he sent test 5b uh to the cstb and asked what the best classification was and didn't actually ask for a further test did you know that
00:28:51 a position
00:28:56 on mars
00:29:06 [Music]
00:29:11 no no so you can't explain why he simply asked
00:29:16 asked the cstb about whether he could use test 5b to get a class d classification
00:29:36 let's look at his exhibit uh met3053158
00:29:44 and in the french it's met 3053158 page 170 just two pages before it's an email
00:30:06 and if you look at the french version you can see
00:30:12 i'll wait for it
00:30:19 oh yes you have the french on the right it's an email from what it's an email second from the top from maxime
00:30:27 maxime bauer of the cstb uh on the 29th of june 2011 to claude and the title is a reaction to fire tests
00:30:38 fire tests and there's a project number can you see that
00:30:48 recirculated
00:30:54 yes i'll show you the full text of the email and then if you read along in the french please
00:31:01 maxine bauer says hello mr valet we have performed a test on your reference rain upon pe
00:31:08 upon pe unfortunately we stopped the test before the end of the test note fall of large pieces of the small wing widespread fire on the surface reaching critical values resulting in the termination of the ongoing test
00:31:19 the ongoing test 350 kilowatts therefore we cannot provide you with the classification for the cassette version i propose that this project be concluded
00:31:27 concluded for an amount of 2297 euros sbi test single burning item test plus cleaning costs plus main burner repair sincerely maxine bauer
00:31:39 repair sincerely maxine bauer so looking at that it looks as if the test for pe cassette was stopped because of its fire performance before the test had been concluded
00:31:58 the test
00:32:11 and then if we look at the top of page 172 in the english and 170 in the french we can see mr verle's reaction uh or perhaps resistance
00:32:25 uh or perhaps resistance he says hello is this far from a declassification reaction hello are we uh
00:32:38 are you able to explain why mr verle would have asked that question
00:32:50 no no if we go down then to page 171 in in the english in the french page 169 we can see the response from maxine
00:33:01 we can see the response from maxine bauer of the cstb the same day
00:33:07 maxine bauer
00:33:18 uh since we have not completed the test and if
00:33:21 and if mr schmidt you could read along in the french
00:33:29 since we have not completed the test we cannot give a classification to the product
00:33:33 product the only possible classification is a classification without a test which is f with the current configuration of the product it seems very difficult for me to obtain a declassification
00:33:47 and then above that on both pages we can see claude verle responding to maxine bauer
00:33:53 bauer on the same day 29th of june 2011 and he says okay let's stop the tests now
00:34:00 now may i ask you to write an f classification report
00:34:06 [Music]
00:34:46 uh now uh we can see the response as i've shown you um and let's go to the top of uh page 171
00:34:54 171 uh top of page 169 uh where uh maxine bauer says this hello i propose that you carry out the ignition tests stand at en iso 11925
00:35:07 ignition tests stand at en iso 11925 part 2
00:35:08 part 2 on your reference but if they are satisfactory we will give you an e classification on your product sincerely maxine bauer and then at the top of the page in both cases we can see
00:35:20 in both cases we can see claude velle saying to maxine bauer a very good idea indeed let's proceed this way thank you that's the email 29th of june 2011.
00:35:42 yes now mr velle explains this test in his witness statement at some length uh at
00:35:53 witness statement at some length uh at page
00:35:53 page 18 i don't need to go to it uh
00:36:04 because i'm not sure you would be able to answer questions on his statement in this case
00:36:08 this case my question is a general one do you accept looking at this email chain uh that this test on pe cassette at this time
00:36:19 time again performed significantly worse uh than the test on pe
00:36:51 and do you accept that even if even if there was any shred any small piece of a view remaining within arconic
00:37:01 arconic uh that the test 5b from 2005 was rogue aberrant then this 2011 test dispelled that
00:37:13 test dispelled that it is
00:37:38 yes do you remember whether mr vernet told you or to your recollection anybody else that iconic that this test demonstrated
00:37:51 that this test demonstrated that with cassette the core doesn't simply drip out of the panel but collects in the return
00:38:00 return and continues to increase in temperature until it reaches the point of auto ignition
00:38:16 montreal
00:38:44 [Music] i think he mentioned it in 2012.
00:38:56 in what context did he mention it in 2012
00:39:06 [Music]
00:39:22 he tried to contact me in 2012 to talk to me about those tests
00:39:30 [Music]
00:39:37 of commercials and at the time there was no one specifically in charge of the commercial side of things it was
00:39:49 of the commercial side of things it was the time of the transition between ghee scheiderker and gi flacco
00:40:01 [Music]
00:40:08 so he wanted to organize a meeting with me but that meeting never took place
00:40:21 [Music] i think it was connected to these famous tests
00:40:28 tests what makes you think that it was connected to these famous tests it connected test
00:40:50 because i didn't know what he was wanted to talk about
00:41:04 so he sent me another mail saying there are two things i want to talk to you about
00:41:13 the linux a complaint regarding some enox
00:41:18 enox product stain steel product
00:41:25 and some fire test results
00:41:33 was this in may 2012
00:41:40 um mayo dude
00:41:51 and you say you didn't have that meeting is that right
00:41:59 we passed
00:42:09 yes because at the time when the meeting was supposed to take place i wasn't on site
00:42:23 [Music] a
00:42:34 and in fact at the time there was nobody in charge
00:42:37 in charge of the commercial wing there was no commercial head and therefore i was doing part of the work i would go and visit clients i was very often traveling
00:42:48 was very often traveling and my timetable was extremely heavy
00:42:54 we will come back to documents which we can see about that uh request for a meeting uh later in your evidence
00:43:14 [Music]
00:43:20 my question at this stage which is uh 2011 the year before uh it is uh i mean i'm assuming that he did not tell you mr
00:43:32 i'm assuming that he did not tell you mr verley did not tell you uh at that stage uh that pe in cassette form had uh behaved so badly in a fire test conducted by the cstb
00:43:46 in a fire test conducted by the cstb um that it produced an auto ignition event
00:43:50 event uh question associated
00:44:21 no i don't think so did there come a time
00:44:24 time after 2012 after the failed meeting when you did come to learn the reynold 55
00:44:33 55 pe and cassette variant had performed in the way
00:44:36 the way in which mr verley describes namely so badly
00:44:41 badly that it led to an autoignition event
00:44:48 so
00:45:12 [Music]
00:45:26 [Music]
00:45:45 no i don't think so uh and uh but uh i think it's likely that in 2012 we did have a discussion on the subject but for
00:45:55 but for for me the detail of the conversation the way you describe it i certainly didn't have that what it did tell me was that it was a classification e
00:46:07 classification e or classification f
00:46:11 i see so you learned in 2012 did you mr schmidt
00:46:15 schmidt that reynabon 55pe in cassette variant has obtained an e or f is that right
00:46:26 because
00:46:51 i'm not certain but it's possible that sometime in june at the time when that meeting in fact didn't take place he did talk to me about it
00:47:04 did he tell you not only about the classifications that you said he told you it had obtained
00:47:12 obtained but that actually how cassette had performed in the fire namely also ignited
00:47:20 the classification
00:47:36 you
00:47:44 no and even now i didn't know about it
00:47:49 let's look and see how cloud valet dealt with it internally at the time can we go please uh to claude vel's exhibits part four m e t three zeros five eight three one
00:48:00 m e t three zeros five eight three one eight sorry five three one five eight uh p i'm sorry i'll start again met three zeros five three one five eight underscore p04 page fourteen and in the french met
00:48:13 page fourteen and in the french met three zeroes five three one five eight underscore p zero four page thirteen come on
00:48:39 now you know the french on the right and the english on the left it's an email that he sends on the 29th of june
00:48:47 of june to bertrand kernig and laura kikire if i pronounce that correctly i don't know am i writing thinking that bertrand
00:48:59 am i writing thinking that bertrand koenig was project manager at the time
00:49:14 um
00:49:29 organization [Music]
00:49:32 [Music] i don't know his exact title but it's true that he was within claude verle's organization or team and laurie kikire appears to us to have been a research and development
00:49:43 been a research and development and product quality project manager again
00:50:14 [Music]
00:50:22 she was partly involved in research and development and partly involved in production support
00:50:30 [Music]
00:50:34 and she was part of what we call the lab
00:50:38 okay uh now we can see the text of the email that mr verlei sends he says oops the classification of pe and cassettes
00:50:49 the classification of pe and cassettes following the test this morning is dot dot dot f
00:50:56 now i know you didn't write this email but i have to ask you about it the use of the word oops or oops there it may depend on how you
00:51:08 or oops there it may depend on how you pronounce it but are you surprised uh that claude verley introduced this news with that word
00:51:18 email me
00:51:41 [Music]
00:51:48 come
00:51:53 [Music] i wouldn't say it's a very refined way
00:52:05 i wouldn't say it's a very refined way of expressing himself i mean it's more the way we talk than the way the way we write
00:52:12 maybe and one way of reading it though do you agree is that he was making light of
00:52:30 foreign
00:52:45 that may be an interpretation but i'm not certain no
00:52:51 uh do and i know you didn't write this email
00:52:54 email we're interpreting it together mr schmidt obviously but we take it from the triple exclamation mark at the end of the sentence that mr verlais regarded the news he was
00:53:05 that mr verlais regarded the news he was imparting
00:53:06 imparting as something of a an announcement to be made loudly
00:53:46 yes now let's look at the test report itself for this test it's at arc50538 in the english and met 3053158
00:53:57 and met 3053158 page 173 in the french test
00:54:09 and we have
00:54:23 uh
00:54:26 the english on the left hand side the french one hasn't yet appeared i'll give it again met three zeros five three one five eight page one seven three
00:54:40 thank you uh now you can see just read with me
00:54:44 with me uh in the french i'll um identify the english
00:54:48 english it says reaction to fire test
00:55:00 according to the european standard nf iso 11925 part 2. now pausing there just pausing there you did you know and
00:55:12 just pausing there you did you know and i'm going to put this to you that that um this is only a report on iso one one nine two five part two namely the single source of flame tests
00:55:46 yes if we go uh
00:55:53 uh down please to um
00:56:03 to um in in the report please to page three in the english and also in the french
00:56:14 we can see the date of the test
00:56:18 7th of july 2011. can you see that
00:56:25 right yes commercial brand being tested is renamon pe cassette system yes
00:56:34 system cassette right yes
00:56:40 and in relation to the date that's only a little bit after the exchange we saw with maxine bauer where she told mr verde that omicronics should submit the
00:56:51 verde that omicronics should submit the product for an ignition test
00:56:54 that's just
00:57:00 [Music]
00:57:10 you and if you go down to page five i'll show you the date of the report itself down to page five
00:57:25 the please of the report as you can see there
00:57:35 uh i'm sorry page three i apologize my my mistake page 3
00:57:43 the date of the report is the 12th of october 2011.
00:57:52 and if you go to page four please
00:58:01 uh we can see the summary description
00:58:06 and it says and these words are perhaps now familiar to you composite panel consisting of low density polyethylene core surfaced on both sides with the pre-coated aluminium sheet thermally bonded
00:58:17 bonded with polyethylene films provided system cassette
00:58:21 cassette finished duragloss by 1035 microns um overall normal thickness four millimeters nominal thickness 1.5 millimeters etc and then color
00:58:33 1.5 millimeters etc and then color various you see color
00:58:48 you this um classification report in in detail or test report i should say in a little detail now have you ever seen it before until today
00:59:02 is
00:59:09 when it says color various would that indicate that all colors of rainbow and 55 pe in cassette form uh were covered by this test report
00:59:30 for the test
00:59:34 yes that's what i understand yes would that include the smoke silver cassette fix for rhino bond uh 55 pe used on grenfell tower
00:59:47 [Music]
01:00:11 uh can we go to the classification report
01:00:16 classification arc 50386 in the english and the friendships arc underscore t4029
01:00:39 english on the left french on the right again
01:00:42 again reaction to fire classification report number ra 110244 according to the european standard en13501 part one and the date of the issue there is 12th
01:00:53 and the date of the issue there is 12th of october 2011. commercial brand middle of the page reyna bond architecture pe cassette system
01:01:00 system do you see that we see all of that
01:01:05 yes and if we can go to page three please of this classification report we'll see the classification
01:01:19 and there it is under paragraph uh four point two five behavior e snake production not applicable flaming droplets or debris not applicable classification e in the box
01:01:34 classification and the field of application under section 4.3
01:01:41 4.3 uh it it refers to various colors at the very bottom there can you see that you can see
01:02:02 mean the same thing
01:02:15 because i would have potentially wanted to write several says mr schmidt rather than
01:02:20 than various others but maybe that's not really what it's what's at hand at the moment you may want to but that's not how it's written um like
01:02:32 written um like it's
01:02:38 this is a difficult question i suppose to uh get right in english and in french but does plz translate or can it translate as various
01:02:47 yes it can mr schmidt oh sorry sorry
01:02:54 um
01:03:00 please
01:03:15 using the french please mr schmidt uh would that description potentially cover smoke silver cassettes
01:03:29 through me
01:03:33 yes i'm now going to turn to a meeting which took place with 3a who make aluko bond i believe in freiburg
01:03:45 i believe in freiburg in 2011 july 2011 so this is a little bit earlier than this document um can i ask you please to go to
01:03:59 met3053158 underscore p04 page 35 for the english french version arc underscore t4020 page one
01:04:39 this is a visit report english version on the left french version on the right of the screen it's a visit report of a meeting
01:04:48 meeting with a gentleman called frank ritter at 3a
01:05:03 and the report was written by claude verlet as you can see
01:05:20 and the copy of this visit report would go to
01:05:23 go to uh gsc is that guy scheideker
01:05:34 decker yes pfr who we understand to be uh peter froelich ppf
01:05:45 yes now um can we look at item one please
01:05:50 please in the in the main box under the heading discussed points
01:06:01 and the reason for visit there is changes in acm use for architecture can you see that
01:06:16 architecture before i look at the body of the text here can i ask you whether you were aware that claude verlet was having this discussion at around this time in freiburg with 3a
01:06:28 at around this time in freiburg with 3a i want regardless [Music]
01:06:43 let's look at the body of the text under european fire regulation it says remind or lappel in the french
01:06:53 text
01:06:57 and read along in the french i'll read the english european fire reaction classification norm em13501 is testing the product in his installation conditions
01:07:09 installation conditions after the test we did the classifications for rayna bonding cassettes and riveted screwed system are and then they're set out product renewable on 55 pe riveted screwed b s one
01:07:22 riveted screwed b s one d naught reynabon 55pe set e random 155 fr riveted screwed b s 1 d naught random 155 f r
01:07:33 s 1 d naught random 155 f r cassette b s 1 d naught and if we look uh below that it says a b class is the minimum required for a
01:07:45 b class is the minimum required for a facade in europe
01:07:48 so just pausing there it's clear from this document isn't it that mr verde knew that an e-class
01:08:02 that an e-class was not was not permitted for use of the facade in europe yes
01:08:36 um
01:08:43 [Music]
01:08:50 as you express it yet but yes but i don't agree with that at all because that implies that one would need a class b for any facade in europe
01:09:33 just an example once again for example products that were classified m1 in france i think could be attached to a facade well let's um let's look and see what's on the right hand side here because
01:09:44 hand side here because mr burleigh has a note and he says analyze how we could have a d call with p
01:09:51 p e cassettes max class possible and usable in some small buildings
01:09:59 buildings see that oh
01:10:14 and then if we go back to the main body of the text on the next steps the note says for the moment even if we know that pe material in cassette
01:10:23 cassette has a bad behavior exposed to fire we can still work with national regulations who are not as restrictive some countries
01:10:32 countries spain brackets are already working with en
01:10:35 en 13501 standards and the pe in cassettes is no more usable there the evolution of fire regulation will put the pe out of the market in the coming months
01:10:48 it's difficult to give a deadline uh now it's right isn't it and cleverly was right when he
01:11:15 yes it looks from this note that claude verlay was advocating suggesting that arconic could still
01:11:22 still sell cassettes provided
01:11:38 national
01:11:49 to make to specify something
01:12:00 [Music]
01:12:07 well never mind who sells it i'll ask my question again uh and i'll i'll try it differently because it may have been in my question let me ask it differently
01:12:20 that
01:12:25 arconic could still work
01:12:31 manufacturing and selling pe material for use in a cassette form provided national regulations in the
01:12:42 provided national regulations in the places it was being sold did not restrict it
01:13:16 uh
01:13:31 yes did our conic decide at this point or as a result of this discussion that it could continue
01:13:43 this discussion that it could continue to sell
01:13:44 to sell pe called acm for fabrication and use in cassette form in those places
01:13:55 form in those places where the national regulations did not prohibit it
01:14:35 [Music]
01:14:38 i don't think we made a decision to carry on selling a pe in countries where it was still allowed
01:14:47 [Music]
01:14:51 but we carried on responding to the needs of the client from this point on did our colleague warn
01:14:59 warn its clients that where its clients were buying renault bond 55 pe for fabrication and use in cassette form
01:15:13 for fabrication and use in cassette form the fire performance was very poor and nothing like the fire performance in rivet form
01:15:22 apart
01:15:50 um
01:16:01 [Music]
01:16:12 well i don't know and once again for countries such as france that needed a m1 standard the question didn't arise
01:16:29 looking at the note back to the note please
01:16:33 please under new information page two in the french page 36 in the english
01:16:41 and the new information can we please go back to
01:16:44 back to page 36 english page two french top of the page there new information big fire test and that might just expand it a little bit thank you
01:16:55 bit thank you a new real fire test erected as a facade is done on a project will be included in fire regulation the fire is done with 400 kilograms of wood
01:17:06 fire is done with 400 kilograms of wood this will approximately be the same as in russia for k-0
01:17:13 we already did this kind of test even in austria and passed it with our reynobot fr but it's impossible to run it with reynabond pe we are already asked for such a kind of
01:17:24 we are already asked for such a kind of test for dubai with a test in accordance with bs8414 standard this will be very difficult to pass due to the
01:17:31 to the do i think it should be to the temperature of the test who is higher than 660 degrees centigrade aluminium fusion temperature
01:17:41 do we take it from that mr schmidt that claude vale considered that it would be very difficult for rayner bond 55pe as opposed to fr 55pe
01:17:55 55pe as opposed to fr 55pe to pass a bs8414
01:18:15 that's what he's written here yes yes and
01:18:18 and you've got a reason to disagree with the view of the time i take it
01:18:24 except
01:18:31 no i agree can we then turn to the 2011 audit by the bba and that's to me we have got beyond our usual stopping point is this going
01:18:42 our usual stopping point is this going to be an inconvenient place to start or it's entirely my fault mr chairman for not spotting the time it's a very convenient moment right well uh mr schmidt we're going to
01:18:54 right well uh mr schmidt we're going to have the short break for the afternoon now we'll uh come back please at 3 35 uk time and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're
01:19:06 about your evidence while you're on the break
01:19:16 thank you thank you very much
01:35:01 well welcome back everyone we're ready to continue with mr schmidt's evidence i just need to check that our interpreters are there and in contact with us we're there and we
01:35:12 in contact with us we're there and we can see you and hear you very good thank you very much and then that mr schmidt also is there and ready to go on mr smith
01:35:25 i can see you i can hear you and i'm ready good thank you very much indeed then i'll just invite mr millet to put some more questions to you yes mr millet thank you mr chairman uh
01:35:36 thank you mr chairman uh do you accept as a matter of fact uh that at no point people ballet or anybody else that iconic tell the bba about the 2011
01:35:48 tell the bba about the 2011 fire test or classification
01:36:08 m
01:36:13 no i don't know mr verlais says in his witness statement uh and just for the reference it's uh paragraph 59 in the english page
01:36:24 uh paragraph 59 in the english page uh 17 french page 21 but just for reference
01:36:27 reference uh that it did not occur to him that it would be necessary to provide to the bba any further testing information
01:37:15 my question is uh given that he didn't do so can you explain why he didn't do so in light of the obligation to do so
01:37:28 in light of the obligation to do so we saw under clause 7a of the contract between iconic and the bba
01:37:43 continues
01:37:56 the first bba certification test 5b was withheld from arconic because iconic decided it could ignore
01:38:07 because iconic decided it could ignore it
01:38:08 it as a rogue now in 2011 we have confirmation that cassette pe was class e why did our colleague not make that
01:38:19 why did our colleague not make that position clear to the bba at that time and tell them that cassette version cassette variant had obtained a class e from your certification
01:39:09 do you accept that given that the bba certificate used the class b european result for saying that rayner
01:39:20 b european result for saying that rayner bond 55 pe may be regarded as having class naught
01:39:42 it was important for the bba to know that renault bond 55 in cassette version didn't have class e so that they could reconsider whether
01:39:53 reconsider whether a class naught
01:39:56 whether or not it could be regarded as class naught in that variant
01:40:04 second thank you for my cassette
01:40:19 i'm sorry to interrupt you but did you mean class e i think you meant class b in that question didn't you no class e it's a long question i'm going to try and
01:40:27 and mr chairman before the witness answers that it's a long question just before you do just read the question on the transcript because you asked whether
01:40:41 because you asked whether um
01:40:44 whether it was important for the bba to know that the rhinobond 55 in cassette version did not have class e yes i think i said had classy that may have gone down wrong all right something's gone wrong in the transcript
01:40:56 something's gone wrong in the transcript and i don't know whether it was translated it was also translated wrong because the transcript is a lot of help for us let me try it shortly mr schmidt um
01:41:08 let me try it shortly mr schmidt um given that the bba used the european class b to say that reyna bond 55 pe could be regarded as or maybe regarded
01:41:18 regarded as having class naught was it not essential for the bba to know that in cassette variant it had obtained a class e
01:41:25 a class e because that might affect whether cassette variant may be regarded as class naught
01:41:58 zero
01:42:10 could you ask your question once again because i'm not sure that i've understood it even shorter this time given that the bba used the european
01:42:21 given that the bba used the european uh test result b
01:42:25 to say that renibon 55pe may be regarded as having class naught was it not essential for the bba to know
01:42:34 to know that in cassette variant it had obtained a class
01:42:37 a class e because that might affect whether the cassette variant may be regarded as having class
01:42:49 results
01:43:22 2012 and look at some fires in 2012. before i go to the next document i should give a trigger warning and in this next section we may be showing
01:43:35 this next section we may be showing pictures of fires on tall buildings mr chairman
01:43:39 chairman so those who are watching this and feel that they cannot see that there's an image but uh just be warned that we are going to look at some documents
01:44:04 yes thank you mr millet now we're going to start with a fire in france in ruby in a building called the mermails tower on the 14th of may 2012.
01:44:18 uh
01:44:24 and you say in your witness statement there's no need to go to it and the reference is paragraph 30.1 that you are aware of this fire but you are not sure
01:44:35 are not sure if you knew of it until after the grenfell tower fire position
01:44:52 yes can we go to claude verles exhibit part 6
01:44:56 part 6 page 171 english version met 30 five eight underscore p06 page one seven one there is no french translation for this
01:45:08 there is no french translation for this i'm afraid
01:45:17 and this is a document called ongoing technical key actions and if we scroll down to the next page please
01:45:26 please page 172
01:45:29 uh we can see a date at the bottom left-hand corner the 3rd of september 2019 which uh maybe the date it was printed uh but i'm going to suggest to you mr
01:45:43 uh but i'm going to suggest to you mr schmidt that this document was presented sometime in 2012 as we go through the document but if there's anything that you see in the document which tells you that that's a different date
01:45:54 you that that's a different date it's a different date let me know don't
01:46:37 and there are three topics technical department statistics first half 2012 and then two other topics
01:46:48 yeah statistics department technique premiere market domain
01:46:56 do you think you might have seen this document yourself before
01:47:06 documents
01:47:11 difficult to say i don't remember does it look like a presentation that todd burleigh would have given at an annual sales meeting or twice the early sales meeting do you think
01:47:36 is there the front page somewhere you can go to the page before please
01:47:43 does that tell does that help you is no no
01:47:50 no not really let's go to page 189
01:47:58 this is a page where we see
01:48:03 the heading for news about certification five and sandy roubaix new changes coming in the building rules
01:48:14 coming in the building rules information
01:48:31 significant enough for it to be discussed in some kind of presentation by mr verde
01:48:44 soon
01:48:57 yes do you recall any discussion about this time
01:49:00 this time 2012 uh about this fire escape discussion
01:49:12 of no no this slide seems to suggest that the fire at the rube
01:49:24 the fire at the rube might have been related to or cause perhaps change new changes coming in the building rules are you able to help us about how
01:49:35 are you able to help us about how that fire was connected if at all with any new changes
01:50:14 no i don't know now you tell us in your statement that this tower was not planned in reno bond but you do believe was clad in an acm
01:50:26 but you do believe was clad in an acm with a pe core is that correct
01:50:35 the renault bond market
01:50:46 yes if so did it not occur to you that it would perform exactly somebody in iconic that it would perform exactly as reynabond pe would perform
01:50:58 it
01:51:04 performed
01:51:15 yes and so can we take it that this fire in ruby in may 2012 was another warning about how uh acm with a pe corps might behave
01:51:27 uh acm with a pe corps might behave in the event of a fire yes competitive
01:51:46 do
01:52:00 in
01:52:02 [Music]
01:52:14 foreign yes but without and then the sentence wasn't finished but i i suppose that in 2012 the analysis of the uh causes of the fire hadn't been
01:52:27 the uh causes of the fire hadn't been carried out yet did to your knowledge did anything happen within arconic to examine again the fire safety of uh acm of the pe corps in the light of this
01:52:39 acm of the pe corps in the light of this fire
01:52:42 protons
01:52:56 foreign
01:53:14 [Music]
01:53:23 whether it's directly at the light of this fire i mean i couldn't say but very clearly there was a greater awareness
01:53:31 awareness which started within the commercial team and starting around that time
01:53:48 yes the witness did say 2013 the interpreter apologizes just to be clear are you saying awareness within arconic uh started with this
01:54:01 arconic uh started with this um with this fire or was it wasn't really
01:54:04 really um something within iconic until 2013 which is the following year could you just help me with that
01:54:20 uh
01:54:42 [Music]
01:54:56 i'm not sure it was this particular fire that
01:54:59 that triggered the reflection that was carried out within arconic but there are a massive group of elements that
01:55:07 that in a general way led us to become aware that
01:55:10 that we were not really in the right direction
01:55:14 direction with the pe core was it this fire on the 14th of may 2012 that
01:55:25 of may 2012 that prompted claude verlet to seek to have a meeting with you uh as he did later that month about uh raynaud pe and his fire
01:55:38 uh raynaud pe and his fire classification
01:55:44 hey
01:55:58 classification i don't know now you referred earlier to the meeting which never took place in may 2012 about the fire
01:56:11 in may 2012 about the fire classification for rayner bond pe uh can we just look very briefly perhaps
01:56:17 perhaps one or two of the documents about that meeting can we go to your exhibit um at page 287 met 3053157 at
01:56:55 h287
01:57:05 it's it's an email to you mr schmidt on the 29th of may 2012 sent to you from uh lord verlae and it's sent in english to you with no
01:57:17 sent in english to you with no french translation so do i take it you could read it and understand it in english
01:57:37 right yes it's also sent to peter froelich uh what language did peter froelich speak what was his primary tongue where you see a pit of holy [ __ ] like a
01:57:48 where you see a pit of holy [ __ ] like a long bitter fruit
01:57:54 can you explain why claude verde chose to
01:57:57 to write to you uh in english given that it is um neither your nor peter frederick's mother tongue is expected
01:58:18 uh
01:58:25 didn't speak or french or very poorly and presumably claude verley had no insufficient german or
01:58:46 a
01:58:52 i believe that cloud valley would have had quite a strong german certainly stronger than mine did you did you often communicate with claude verlet in english
01:59:06 with you in english
01:59:17 with you in english i believe that the single reason for using english here is because peter froelich was involved very well in which case let's look at the document and we can have it translated to you
01:59:28 and we can have it translated to you as we go and it says get back to it
01:59:40 dear claude and peter i'd like to have a discussion with both of you concerning the fire class the renault bomb pe when tested in accordance with urinals en13501
01:59:49 en13501 we have to take a decision for the class we're giving to the market for this product
01:59:53 product can we meet half an hour this week timing up to you and if we go down to the to page 290 and now we do have a translation in the french it's page 289
02:00:04 french it's page 289 so page 219 the english french version met 3053157 page 289 and we can see the french translation i bet at the same time if you follow the french please mr
02:00:16 if you follow the french please mr schmidt i'll read the english uh uh the bottom you say to claude verde uh uh claude please specify the subject i
02:00:27 claude please specify the subject i don't accept meetings without knowing what it will be about thank you cs and uh he responds to you and the email above that
02:00:37 that uh on the 15th of june sorry chloe i thought the subject matter was sufficiently clear two issues must be considered one the complaint in england regarding stainless steel
02:00:49 steel and then two which is the second one i want to examine with you render on pe and his fire classification is a serious issue in europe and we would like to hear your opinion on the position
02:01:00 position to be held on the market
02:01:05 now just pausing there is it right that at this time i think you did say this in your evidence earlier there was nobody occupying the post of director of sales and marketing because uh mr shidaka or scheideker had
02:01:16 because uh mr shidaka or scheideker had left
02:01:17 left that post and mr flacco had not yet taken his eye
02:01:46 [Music] yes i believe that uh left at the end of the first quarter and that allah came in august beginning of august so
02:01:57 came in august beginning of august so were you acting in the role of claude verlet's direct line manager when you received this email
02:02:11 [Music] um
02:02:26 [Music]
02:02:36 no not directly because i would have had to ask peter furlik to take the lead as it were because of reyna bond because it was far too much for me to be able to deal with a whole
02:02:46 whole matter i see you told us earlier that this meeting he wanted never took place um given what he was telling you at paragraph two in his email to you
02:03:00 at paragraph two in his email to you about what he wanted to talk to you about
02:03:03 about did you not regard it as sufficiently important for you to be able to find a little bit of time and sit down and talk to claude verle about it i
02:03:46 [Music]
02:04:04 all i can say once again is that i was traveling a great deal i spent very little time on the site and so it was very difficult for me to to be able to deal with all these problems that one had to deal with
02:04:17 problems that one had to deal with where was peter frelich who is
02:04:27 did you take any steps to make sure that peter fralick had the meeting with claude verlet and the discussion claude verle wanted
02:04:50 m no not to my knowledge why did you not take those steps
02:05:18 um
02:05:33 claude varela and peter had a had a a good working relationship they spoke to each other very often and they met up often mr schmidt why didn't you take steps to make sure
02:05:45 why didn't you take steps to make sure peter frolic had the meeting had the discussion with claude verlet and then reported back to you on the out on the outcome
02:06:00 of
02:06:14 foreign
02:06:23 once again i can't answer i was overloaded with work and i didn't think of it can we have the email back again please 15th of june email top of the page
02:06:37 item two schwa tells you george verde tells you that uh rainer bon pe and fire classification is a serious issue in europe and we would like to hear your opinion
02:06:49 and we would like to hear your opinion on the position to be held on the market here is mr verlais seeking your opinion you were president on a serious issue about fire
02:07:01 on a serious issue about fire classification in europe why was this issue not so serious that even if you couldn't handle it directly yourself
02:07:09 yourself you could at least give your opinion through peter frohlich
02:07:19 on europe
02:07:24 uh
02:07:52 foreign
02:07:58 [Music]
02:08:09 once again i can't answer it was in 2012.
02:08:14 did you ever give your opinion on the position to be held on the market in relation to this serious issue
02:08:34 so
02:08:50 because i didn't have all the information
02:08:54 why didn't you ask for all the information
02:09:07 i don't know now to be fair to you claude verlet has at least according to his statement some recollection of what happened
02:09:20 some recollection of what happened and i just should show you what he says and just ask you about it um in his statement uh net3053190 page 28. paragraph
02:09:33 page 28. paragraph 96 please deals with that subject and in the french it's met 30s 48342 page 35 paragraph 96 and i want in the english let's wait for
02:09:46 and i want in the english let's wait for it to come up
02:09:58 with
02:10:04 in the english what i want to show you is five lines down from the top and in the french uh it's six lines down from the top which starts [Music]
02:10:15 [Music] and in the english i do not recall actually he says i do not recall actually meeting with claude schmidt but had a brief discussion early the following week when it was agreed
02:10:26 following week when it was agreed between us that the reference to en class day like class b
02:10:30 class b in the marketing documents should be removed as it was no longer a wholly accurate reflection of the position
02:10:38 do you remember having a meeting with claude vale and making that agreement
02:10:55 no no i don't remember no do you deny that it happened or do you simply not remember
02:11:08 now i don't remember
02:11:13 do you not remember at all claude vale coming to you and telling you that class b was no longer appropriate or applicable
02:11:25 was no longer appropriate or applicable to rename bond 55 pe
02:11:36 plus
02:11:50 know [Music]
02:11:58 but once again i certainly don't want to say that it didn't happen
02:12:03 mr schmidt can i just um ask you this what mr vella says i'm sorry we need to have the um the documents up on the screen please
02:12:19 the documents up on the screen please he says in the english and this is about six lines done in the french i do not recall
02:12:30 in the french i do not recall actually meeting with claude schmidt but had a brief discussion that suggests that he may have spoken to you
02:12:39 you on the telephone or in some way without actually meeting you face to face does that ring any bells with you oh
02:13:08 no no all right thank you very much yes mr millet thank you mr chairman leaving the statement on the screen please just for a little bit long
02:13:20 a little bit long where you see the mr verlais says that you'd agreed that the reference to european class b should be removed as it
02:13:31 european class b should be removed as it was no longer a wholly accurate reflection of the position
02:13:40 i know you can't remember but if that was the reason then it was a disingenuous reason because
02:13:53 reason because cassette version of raynor bond 55 pe had never had a class b do you accept that
02:14:09 exactly the situation
02:14:38 cassette form
02:14:48 maybe that was too long maybe when he says
02:14:52 says that it it was no longer a wholly accurate reflection of the position
02:15:05 the truth is isn't it that it was never wholly accurate was it because cassette had never achieved a b
02:15:20 cassette
02:15:32 in the evidence of deborah french that at about this time there was an update in the marketing literature and i want to show you that please
02:15:41 please don't let the position french
02:15:46 marketing can we please have up side by side
02:15:52 side arc50378 and arc50388
02:16:02 and mr schmidt this language is uh multilingual so we don't need a translation for this purpose uh we have here um on um
02:16:14 uh the left hand side uh the certifications in english and french and then across the page you can see it it goes into other languages as well spanish uh italian and russian
02:16:27 spanish uh italian and russian it appears now if you look at um page one
02:16:35 and page three
02:16:39 at the same time
02:16:43 we can compare to some documents uh those are the comparable pages i want to show you and you can see they have both english and french so if you look at the french version in the
02:16:54 if you look at the french version in the middle column i'll read out the english in the left hand column uh we uh
02:17:03 uh we uh um believe that these the document on the left was produced in 2010 and the document on the on the right was produced in 2012.
02:17:28 uh now can we go to page three of the left-hand side document and page five
02:17:39 five of the right-hand side document to look at a comparison of lists of fire certifications on the on the 2010 version on the left
02:17:50 on the on the 2010 version on the left can you see
02:17:54 the table below it lists both p e and f r core and says that p e cor is b s two d naught
02:18:23 yes thank you now on the 2012 version on the right
02:18:27 the right we see that the reference with the european fire certification to pe has disappeared and now we only see the fr
02:18:36 fr fire certification
02:18:43 yes so it looks on the document as if what has changed is the removal of any statement
02:18:54 55 um pe core being class b
02:19:04 so
02:19:15 there's no statement that pe caught in cassette form was class e was there
02:19:23 declaration
02:19:32 of
02:19:44 first of all um did you see these uh documents at the time they were produced 2010 2012 do you think
02:20:00 uh
02:20:11 [Music] i don't know i may have seen them
02:20:28 and how would you have seen them in a meeting or would they have just been sent to you by email or during a presentation of some kind
02:20:42 of
02:20:53 [Music]
02:21:11 marketing documents there were some that i saw others that i didn't see there were no rules there were no rules um uh but looking at them now sitting here today do these trigger any recollection
02:21:23 today do these trigger any recollection of having seen them
02:21:28 [Music]
02:21:42 these precise documents i can't say whether i saw these documents in 2010 and 2012.
02:21:47 and 2012. you recall any internal discussions or briefings
02:21:51 briefings about um about removing the reference to rhino bond 55 random 155 with a pe calls european fire
02:22:02 random 155 with a pe calls european fire classification from its certification documents such as these
02:22:06 these issues
02:22:33 can you explain why uh maybe you can't but can you explain at all why that the reference to the european uh fire classifications for random 155
02:22:46 uh fire classifications for random 155 in pe rivet or cassette was simply removed
02:23:08 [Music]
02:23:25 i'm not sure the explanation but it could be the result of the discussion that i had with claude vale at that time
02:23:38 one could establish a link between the two
02:23:42 two uh right um just explain the nature of that link please
02:23:57 sorry can i can i just change something sorry he said that i may have had with claude valley at the time not that i had with sword valley at the time no he's well uh okay
02:24:08 no he's well uh okay to be clear your answer was at 9 11 on the transcript i'm not sure of the explanation but it could be the result of a discussion that i had with todd burley at the time was that mistranslated
02:24:19 was that mistranslated yes i think he said i may have had yes i was just correcting it exactly right that stands corrected um do you remember even
02:24:30 um do you remember even vaguely having a discussion with claude vale at the time about removing the classifications for reigning on 55 pe from
02:24:38 from this document oh it's good
02:24:55 statement please at page 28 paragraph 96
02:25:04 earlier uh in and i just want to get back to it page 28 english 35 in the french we have it there on the screen and i want to go into the english
02:25:15 screen and i want to go into the english eight lines down and the french 10 lines down
02:25:19 down uh he goes on to say please follow me after the words uh no longer a wholly accurate reflection of the position
02:25:32 it was agreed that the sales team for each jurisdiction should be told that the en e classification so that they could take this into account as relevant to their jurisdiction and not all jurisdictions allow the
02:25:43 and not all jurisdictions allow the state of pe in any event the intention was for customers to be informed of the position when asking about the far performance of the cassette barrier product and the classification was available on the cstb website
02:25:55 available on the cstb website all of this was actioned he says i did not know exactly how this was done it could have been by discussion or by sending customers the updated marketing material
02:26:03 material with respect to the communication to the sales team i believe that the result would have been placed in the toolbox for their
02:26:08 for their use now when he says it was agreed that the sales team for each jurisdiction should be told of the en
02:26:16 en e classification
02:26:38 do you recall any discussion with mr verlai
02:26:42 verlai along the lines that he uh describes in this part of his witness statement i just read out to you
02:26:58 the position
02:27:07 [Music]
02:27:13 now we found no evidence of any emails at this time to the uk sales team or to either of the group emails raf commercial anthem or rf least commercial
02:27:24 commercial anthem or rf least commercial expand are you able to explain why not
02:27:44 [Music]
02:27:56 a
02:28:10 no i don't know but maybe he took advantage of the sales uh meeting and maybe um he he took he he made a presentation he made a presentation the one that you showed previously do
02:28:22 the one that you showed previously do you know that or are you just speculating
02:28:38 a
02:28:44 [Music]
02:28:59 well i am speculating because we're talking now about the end of may end of june and the presentation you showed before talked about the presentation first half results so maybe you were talking about them july and august
02:29:12 them july and august i'm seeking to get what you know from your own recollections
02:29:23 your own recollections but you've confirmed you're speculating you see we've seen no mention in the sales team presentations at this time including the one i've just shown you about 2012 results about reyna bond p
02:29:34 about 2012 results about reyna bond p e being a class e can you explain why there is
02:29:38 there is is no such document or at least no such document that's been produced to the inquiry
02:29:48 concerns
02:30:03 i don't understand what document
02:30:09 maybe it wasn't translated to you i'll put the question again it doesn't seem to come out on the
02:30:21 it doesn't seem to come out on the transcript either we see no mention of team presentations at this time including the one we've just looked at about reynaborn pe
02:30:58 i've probably got another eight minutes left and i can really finish uh not only this topic but a fair chunk of
02:31:05 of uh this top more this wider topic but so ten minutes would be plenty would it just a minute yes when uh mr schmidt i do
02:31:17 yes when uh mr schmidt i do understand it's been a long day um could you could you bear to do another 10 minutes
02:31:34 thank you very much all right mr millet no more than 10 minutes please very much thank you mr schmidt now peter fraley does not mention
02:31:45 peter fraley does not mention this
02:31:49 actioning at all and deborah french does not recall being told
02:31:56 told uh about uh the class e for the cassette version and just for our purposes the reference in the transcript is day 88 page 31
02:32:09 in the transcript is day 88 page 31 9 15 and also page 34 lines 19 to 22.
02:32:19 um
02:32:40 my question is is claude verla mistaken that it was agreed at this time [Music]
02:32:50 [Music] late may 2012 that the sales teams would be told about the pe corps having class e certainly the cassette
02:33:04 clothes
02:33:31 it looks from the documents that we've seen that the sales teams and certainly the uk sales team was told nothing about this classification change at this time at all can you comment on
02:33:44 at this time at all can you comment on that
02:33:45 that it's if i haven't wanted to
02:34:05 no now going back into paragraph 96 of claude verle's witness statement please
02:34:19 i just want to focus you on uh something he says in the english 10 lines down and in the french 12 lines down where he says the intention was for customers
02:34:41 and he says the intention was for customers to be informed of the position when asking about the fire performance of the cassette variant of the product and that the classification was available on the cstb website
02:34:58 available on the cstb website uh it looks from that as if claude verle is saying that the intention our conic's intention was to tell customers about the performance of pe classification of pe only if they asked
02:35:10 classification of pe only if they asked is that correct
02:35:29 but that's what it's written there was that our comics strategy that a customer would only find out
02:35:37 out about the european e-classification if they ask about fire performance but not otherwise
02:35:49 classification unique
02:36:04 no not specifically how do you explain therefore why claude verlet says that the intention was to for the customers to be informed of the position
02:36:15 customers to be informed of the position when asking about the fire performance of this
02:36:20 of this example
02:36:36 i can't explain it do you agree that the e-classification was significant and important information for customers to know
02:36:46 to know excuse accepted classification the signification
02:36:55 for me
02:37:01 yes given that customers had previously been told that all reina bond uh pe55 had euro class b do you agree that they should proactively have been told
02:37:13 proactively have been told that that was wrong and it was now class e
02:37:41 with the distance that i have today yes what changed between 2012 and today
02:37:53 in your understanding of the importance of positively telling customers that this uh product was no longer class p but was now classy
02:38:12 online
02:38:24 [Music]
02:38:46 because i understood after grenfell that we could have been more specific in communication
02:38:54 why was the fact that cassette had a euro class e not broadcast as widely as possible so that customers from that point onwards would not carry on using renabon55pe in
02:39:07 would not carry on using renabon55pe in cassette
02:39:08 cassette mistakenly thinking it had class b
02:39:13 um
02:39:51 a
02:40:00 [Music]
02:40:13 i think that one of the explanation is that probably the euro norm wasn't necessarily standard norm in every country in europe and in some countries they still carried on applying national
02:40:27 they still carried on applying national and specific rules that were specific to that country well now mr militia is that a convenient point one more question mr chairman there's always one
02:40:38 mr chairman there's always one right one mr speaker you accept uh that it was a dangerous practice
02:40:45 practice uh to leave it to the customer to find out
02:40:49 out that the cassette variant had a class e rather than volunteering to them that it had a class e excuse except excited
02:41:14 oh
02:41:24 it was risky
02:41:28 right well i think at that point just a minute we should break for the day it's been a long day thank you for sitting a bit longer than usual mr
02:41:39 sitting a bit longer than usual mr schmidt i'm sure it's quite tiring for you long journey
02:41:47 no i'm sorry to have to tell you that i think you've been warned of this that we are going to have to ask you to come back on monday to answer a few more questions
02:42:03 i'm sorry about that because i think we had certainly hoped to finish your evidence today but you can never be very certain about that sort of thing
02:42:18 so um i'm going to ask you to make yourself available again at 10 o'clock uk time on monday
02:42:31 and i'm going to remind you as i have before not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it over the weekend
02:42:51 and we'll look forward to seeing you again on monday
02:43:00 i'll be there on monday thank you very much indeed 10 o'clock monday then thank you sir
02:46:36 you