Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Arconic Evidence - Thursday 18th February 2021 (1/2)
00:00:03 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to continue hearing from mr schmidt of arconic today uh i'm here of course with my fellow panel members
00:00:14 panel members uh miss istafan and mr akbar good morning good morning everyone now before we go to mr schmidt i think i had better check that our interpreters
00:00:26 had better check that our interpreters are with us and able to hear and see whatever's necessary we're both with you and we can see and hear you thank you very much lovely thank you very much uh in that case
00:00:37 case i i will see if mr schmidt is there and ready to speak to us are you there mr schmidt
00:00:46 yes i'm there good morning um
00:00:51 and i assume you can hear me and see me without difficulty even difficulty good thank you very much now before we resume your evidence i think i better go
00:01:03 resume your evidence i think i better go through the usual questions with you um can you confirm please that you're alone in the room from which you're giving evidence
00:01:21 yes thank you can you confirm also that you have
00:01:25 you have no documents or other materials with you
00:01:34 yes i confirm thank you very much and can you confirm that your mobile phone is in another room and that you have no electronic device with you in the room
00:01:45 electronic device with you in the room which is capable of receiving messages
00:01:52 yes
00:02:00 thank you very much is there anything you'd like to raise or bring to my attention before you resume giving your evidence
00:02:15 no nothing good thank you well uh the arrangements today will be the same as they were yesterday we'll have a break during the morning and during the afternoon
00:02:26 and during the afternoon um and at that point i'm going to invite mr millet to put some more questions to you yes mr millet thank you mr chairman good morning
00:02:40 good morning i want to ask you first this morning please some questions about
00:02:46 about iso accreditation uh first can you tell me when uh arconic or a aap sas
00:02:57 or a aap sas was accredited under iso 9001
00:03:16 in 1993
00:03:21 and did it remain or is it still accredited under iso 9001
00:03:30 0
00:03:35 and who was responsible uh in from 2005
00:03:42 for example for ensuring that aap sas complied with its obligations under iso 9000.
00:03:54 for example
00:03:58 srs
00:04:12 we had somebody within quality assurance who was responsible
00:04:17 [Music]
00:04:24 and as well the whole of the staff
00:04:35 and there were external audits that took place over a number of days once a year when you took over as managing director in august 2007 did you become
00:04:47 in august 2007 did you become responsible for ensuring that aapsas complied
00:04:52 complied with its obligations under iso 9001. managing director um
00:05:10 yes
00:05:13 am i right in thinking that
00:05:17 documents that were critical to aap sas is business
00:05:25 would be the subject of audit
00:05:34 documentation psis
00:05:42 yes i believe so would such business critical documents include test results and classification via classifications for aap
00:05:55 via classifications for aap sas's products
00:06:04 students
00:06:24 [Music]
00:06:32 a
00:06:44 and that would have probably appeared under the commercial structure
00:06:50 structure [Music]
00:06:56 and the commercial process was audited
00:07:09 [Music] with regard to all the activities that could affect the process
00:07:19 were the test results and classifications for rayner bond 55 the subject of journal audit is
00:07:42 i can't say
00:07:48 one could imagine yes but i can't say were the test results and classifications for rene bond 55 the subject of external audit
00:08:23 [Music]
00:08:38 um [Music]
00:08:43 [Music] but when there is an external audit we absolutely don't sort of pilot the audit and the auditors will decide which areas they want to be able to audit
00:08:56 was the bba certificate for raynaud 55 the subject of either an internal or an external audit under iso 9001
00:09:20 uh
00:09:29 [Music]
00:09:39 because i don't have the proof that it was audited if it had been audited then there should be then that should appear in in in documents there should be documents demonstrating that that order is taking
00:09:50 demonstrating that that order is taking place in other words
00:09:54 audit sorry audit reports and how frequently were these audit reports
00:10:02 reports used
00:10:10 [Music]
00:10:15 for external audits there was once one a year
00:10:19 year [Music]
00:10:25 global there were audits that used to take place over a week generally
00:10:42 depending on the year
00:10:59 infrared as far as internal audits were concerned we used to ensure to be able to evaluate each process at least once a year
00:11:15 each process at least once a year [Music]
00:11:17 [Music] and generally there were about 15 processors that were evaluated
00:11:31 and the commercial section was part of one of those processes
00:11:40 on what you know about the internal auditing system mr schmidt do you know whether uh the internal
00:11:51 do you know whether uh the internal auditors
00:11:53 auditors examine the bba certificate and what material was sent to the bba for them to produce that certificate
00:12:08 is
00:12:22 certificate
00:12:29 [Music] so there your question is specifically relating to the origin in 2007.
00:12:44 well we went yesterday through what material was sent to the bba what i want to know please is on your knowledge
00:12:53 knowledge of the internal auditing system my question is did the internal auditors examine the bba certificate and also what material was sent to the
00:13:05 and also what material was sent to the bba
00:13:06 bba for them to produce that certificate
00:13:32 certificate
00:13:41 [Music] the
00:14:00 is
00:14:05 yeah but the quality assurance of services were also involved in the audit and the visit to bba so one would imagine that they were involved can you explain therefore why
00:14:17 can you explain therefore why test 5b for reynabon 55 pe cassette test 5b was not sent to the bba as part of the
00:14:28 was not sent to the bba as part of the application for
00:14:47 no can you explain why the internal audit
00:14:52 audit but let me ask you do you know whether the internal audit picked up the fact that the test test 5b for rayner bond 55 cassette
00:15:04 test test 5b for rayner bond 55 cassette was not sent to the bba as part of the application
00:15:10 of
00:15:26 no i don't know can you explain why the external audits well do you know whether the external audits picked up the fact that test 5b was never sent to
00:15:38 the fact that test 5b was never sent to the bba as part of the application
00:15:52 um
00:15:57 do you know whether since the grenfell tower fire there has been any investigation within aap sas to check whether
00:16:08 aap sas to check whether either the internal audit or the external audits did pick up the fact that test 5b was never sent to the bba as part of the application
00:16:20 exclusive
00:16:45 not my knowledge no why is that
00:16:56 i can't answer this question
00:17:06 has there been any internal discussion within aap sas about whether there should be an investigation
00:17:17 investigation of whether the internal or external audit procedures under isa 2001 were properly followed in relation to how reynabon 55pe
00:17:44 h
00:18:12 no right
00:18:18 i'm going to to turn to something different
00:18:22 different now mr schmidt you'll remember from two days ago that we discussed the uh english warrington fire tests
00:18:33 uh english warrington fire tests on pe 160 in 1997 do you remember that we you gave some evidence about
00:18:53 [Music]
00:18:58 yes now i want to show you a document which is
00:19:02 which is in the public domain uh which isn't part of the disclosure uh but will be provided on the documents platform to core participants i'll
00:19:14 platform to core participants i'll explain in a moment but can we please have up uh a an affidavit from the nation brought by the estate of christian barons against arconic
00:19:26 barons against arconic incorporated in the united states district court for the eastern district of pennsylvania this document is to be found on the docket docketbird
00:19:38 docket docketbird platform
00:19:48 uh platform the documents
00:20:18 the platform disappeared
00:20:22 i'm going to explain what this is and then
00:20:25 then give it a number this is the affidavit of a a gentleman called kevin judemon and it was filed on the 29th of august 2019
00:20:37 august 2019 in that litigation uh it will be provided on the relativity platform to participants under the number inq3015
00:20:48 to participants under the number inq3015 one four five five four one four five five four now i'd like you to look at the first page please explain
00:21:11 [Music]
00:21:31 this is a declaration
00:21:35 of kevin judemon paragraph one uh if madam translator can translate it off the screen and she has it
00:21:46 it after i've read it in english he says my name is kevin judeman i am currently the national sales manager at our connect architectural products llc
00:21:58 connect architectural products llc aap llc's manufacturing plant in eastman georgia i have personal knowledge of and would testify under oath to the following
00:22:10 declarations
00:22:29 architectural products pllc using eastman or georgie the
00:22:49 can we please turn to page paragraph nine
00:22:52 nine paragraph 9
00:22:57 which can be found page 2 and i'll i'll read that in english and it goes over to the top of page 3 and then madame translator if you would please translate it to the witness and
00:23:09 please translate it to the witness and he says
00:23:10 he says um reynolds metal company first designed an architectural renault bomb pe in the late 1980s in richmond virginia where reynolds metals company was
00:23:21 reynolds metals company was headquartered reynolds metals company began manufacturing and selling reynabond pe from its eastman georgia plant in the early 1990s its affiliate reynolds aluminium france sa began
00:23:34 reynolds aluminium france sa began manufacturing and selling if we can scroll down rayna bond p e from its merch time france plant in 1999
00:23:45 france plant in 1999 1999 iconic inc previously named alcoa inc acquired reynolds metals company and reynolds aluminium france sa in may 2000
00:23:56 reynolds aluminium france sa in may 2000 madam translator if you would translate that paragraph please reynolds metals company
00:24:50 now i'm going to show you well first of all do you agree with what mr judeman says there in paragraph nine today
00:25:12 uh
00:25:40 a
00:25:44 what i mean is that here one could get the impression that they bought a factory here or there but basically i want to say i want to say that they bought the whole company
00:25:55 okay can we then paragraph 11 of the same declaration
00:26:08 declaration now uh this paragraph is quite long so i'm going to break uh halfway through and have the first half translated to you
00:26:19 half translated to you and then read the second half and have that translated to you all right
00:26:34 he says because of differing supply chains
00:26:38 chains the formulation used for the architectural renault bond manufactured in eastern georgia and sold by
00:26:46 by aap llc and before that reynolds metals company
00:26:50 company has not been the same as the formulation for the architectural renault bond pe manufactured in merkstein france and sold by aap sas
00:27:03 while the rainer bond pe sold by both companies consists of two aluminium sheets with a polyethylene core the polyethylene specification has been different
00:27:14 different i'm going to pause there and ask for the translation please
00:27:18 differentiate
00:27:31 [Music]
00:27:47 then he goes on for example since at least the late 2000s aap llc and before that reynolds metals company
00:27:56 company has used ll ee linear low density polyethylene while aapsas
00:28:04 aapsas has used ldpe low density polyethylene also in roughly 2015 aapsas began manufacturing and selling renault
00:28:15 began manufacturing and selling renault bond p e
00:28:16 bond p e with a black polyethylene core aap llc does not manufacture or sell radio bond pe with
00:28:23 pe with a black polyethylene core translator if you would nor discard
00:29:38 now my question is um i've heard of paragraph 11 do you agree with it
00:29:48 really yes
00:29:59 yes thank you very much
00:30:03 i'm going to turn now to typical [Music]
00:30:08 [Music] which is your second witness statement at page 14 please where you deal with the fr at pe cost topic
00:30:21 and if you can go to your second witness statement in english please at page 14 and in the french at page 18 m e t 3 0 4 8 3 3 1 page 18. enjoy
00:30:36 excuse me sorry i interrupted you okay let's start again um i'm going to ask you about our comics project fr at pe cost driven
00:31:00 statement of paragraph 40
00:31:04 48331 page 18 and the english version please
00:31:08 please at met3053187 page 14. in both cases paragraph 40.
00:31:24 and i'll read the english aloud and if as usual please you could read the
00:31:30 french
00:31:35 and you say over time market demand market demanded various jurisdictions shifted from pe to fr across a number of jurisdictions it was important for the aap sas
00:31:47 it was important for the aap sas business to reflect this change and remain competitive and so we started project fl fr at pe cost in 2008 which had the aim of reducing the cost
00:31:58 which had the aim of reducing the cost of producing fr renault bond fr to bring it in line with the cost of brain upon pe
00:32:03 pe exhibited at pages 214 and 220 is an email dated 29th of june 2009 attaching a presentation about the project exhibited at pages 221 is an
00:32:14 project exhibited at pages 221 is an email dated 30th of may 2014 relating to a visit from prefa one of aap's
00:32:20 of aap's aap sas's customers which refers to a competitor a luco bond offering its fr product at a pe price this reflected the company's understanding of the way in which the market was moving
00:32:32 market was moving and if we go down please to the second paragraph down from that paragraph 42 you see you say by 2015 the price of reynold fr and reynabon pe was nearly the same with
00:32:45 and reynabon pe was nearly the same with the average price of the fr product being
00:32:48 being 26.71 euros per square meter and of the pe product 26.06 euros per square meter first mr schmidt can you explain
00:32:59 meter first mr schmidt can you explain where you got that data from those prices
00:33:12 [Music]
00:33:22 he
00:33:26 i believe i calculated that on the amount the total amount of cells for renal bond architecture product over that year and i think we saw
00:33:37 over that year and i think we saw earlier that the price difference between p
00:33:39 between p e and f r was about two pound sterling p e being 26 pounds per square meter and fr being 28 pounds per square meter was that before 2015 donkey
00:34:04 foreign
00:34:13 [Music]
00:34:18 um
00:34:32 the
00:34:41 [Music]
00:35:01 i i think first that uh i was probably talking about euros and not pounds in my uh statement but uh progressively it's true that the price of
00:35:12 price of the fr product go closer to the pe products but i don't believe that it went uh
00:35:19 went uh the way you're describing that for example in 2014 there was a differential of two euros and then in 2015 hardly anything i think
00:35:31 and then in 2015 hardly anything i think it was progressive through the years what was the differential in 2014 between fr and pe do you remember
00:35:49 no no it wouldn't be more than two euros or so would it or would it be
00:36:03 no i believe it was certainly less than two euros
00:36:08 two euros um if that's right and the price difference was so small even in 2014 what was the point of selling pe at all why not
00:36:17 why not simply sell pr fr
00:36:23 differential
00:36:38 now
00:36:43 [Music]
00:36:52 uh
00:37:04 for me we had these two products that were available and we reacted we responded to market demands
00:37:11 demands and i think that in the bee products there were some advantages particularly for a transformation
00:37:20 fabrication
00:37:25 uh what were those advantages is
00:37:40 [Music]
00:37:48 uh i believe i mean according to my knowledge that the manufacturing of the pe product was easier than the fr product
00:37:58 product and i think about i think it's of drilling the drilling was easier for be i think
00:38:13 i'm sorry i'm i'm not sure about the translation of frieza i think it's dueling i think it might be tooling
00:38:22 tooling is it we we need a few seconds i'm sorry can i interrupt and suggest he may have in mind the english word routing
00:38:33 routing thank you thank you sir so the routing was easier and i do apologize
00:38:43 right that would be an advantage for the fabricator yes
00:38:52 [Music]
00:38:56 yes not an advantage for the customer
00:39:08 no i don't think so no no and if it was easier to route
00:39:16 the pe version than it was to route the fr version did that have
00:39:25 that have a cost implication for the fabricator
00:39:34 [Music]
00:40:07 i don't have any details i don't have any specific figures either but i believe that the transformation of the fr products took longer and was also tougher on the
00:40:18 tougher on the tools and wear them out faster now this uh belief that you have what was the source of that belief or
00:40:29 what was the source of that belief or information have you just applied it to convictions that uh
00:40:50 um
00:40:57 [Music] it's from the technical team or the commercial team at merczheim did you ever have any conversations with
00:41:09 did you ever have any conversations with fabricators such as pe sorry ce i'm so sorry such a cep
00:41:15 cep about whether it was uh easier and less time-consuming for them to route pe as opposed to fr
00:41:26 conversation for example
00:41:32 uh
00:41:43 [Music] um
00:41:54 [Music]
00:42:08 now i think what happened is that at the time in france i met some customer that was doing the same thing the same work than cep but anyway in any case
00:42:19 work than cep but anyway in any case at the time in france most of the market was
00:42:23 was pe and i never had a specific discussion about it would you say that the market in the uk
00:42:32 in the uk the pe was based uh solely on price difference or solely on the ease of manufacture for fabricators
00:42:43 fabricators uh or or perhaps a compliment a combination of the two escorts
00:42:56 who is
00:43:14 i'd like to listen to the question again i'll break it up would you say that the market in the united kingdom for pe was based solely on price difference is
00:43:38 no i couldn't answer the question
00:43:43 [Music]
00:43:52 um
00:44:02 what i mean is that i don't know the reasons or the trends that push the market to go in that direction
00:44:11 specifically for england as an example debbie french told us that the uk market was seen as a pe market
00:44:25 the uk market was seen as a pe market can you confirm that do you agree with that
00:44:34 confirmed
00:44:59 i believe that since most of the orders were for pe that's the conclusion she drew
00:45:11 [Music]
00:45:16 is
00:45:22 and i think it was also the case for the french market for a while but it was no longer the case for other markets in europe for some other markets in europe why was
00:45:35 for some other markets in europe why was the uk
00:45:36 the uk market seen as a pe market britain considered
00:45:48 [Music]
00:45:51 because the demand demand emanating from customers was for pe when you say customers do you mean fabricators or do you mean end-users
00:46:12 on i mean for us the customer is the order giver
00:46:19 transformator and in most cases it's the transformator the fabricator
00:46:31 and why were the why in the uk were the fabricators demanding pe
00:46:40 fabricators
00:46:53 i don't know i can't put myself in their place
00:46:57 place as a matter of policy did our comic give fabricators a choice between a pe panel and an fr panel and then let them decide or did arconic
00:47:08 or did arconic decide who should have pe and who should have fr
00:47:14 general politics
00:47:36 now [Music]
00:47:53 no we responded to what the client demanded if they ordered fr that's what they were delivered if they ordered a pe product that's what we would deliver now going back to your
00:48:07 we would deliver now going back to your statement paragraph 14 can we go back to that
00:48:11 that i just want to look at the first sentence of that paragraph specifically
00:48:18 concentration you say that over time market demanded various jurisdictions shifted from pe to fr across a number of jurisdictions
00:48:29 fr across a number of jurisdictions why was that you said
00:48:46 uh
00:49:01 [Music]
00:49:14 progressive
00:49:28 a
00:49:40 well it's very difficult to know what stirred the market in this or that direction but our our understanding is particularly in 2008 when we started
00:49:53 particularly in 2008 when we started uh developing the fr at a cheaper price we noted and we understood that gradually in most markets
00:50:03 markets the weight of pe was going to reduce and the importance of fr was going to increase and also the a2 product was going to
00:50:14 the a2 product was going to represent a larger part
00:50:18 in that last answer when you refer to the weight of pe you mean the importance it's physical weight
00:50:28 no sir i think it's a translation problem i use the word weight but the idea what the importance yeah okay so i see and uh
00:50:39 so i see and uh why was the importance of pe reducing in those jurisdictions
00:50:52 jurisdiction
00:50:57 [Music]
00:51:03 the regulations were evolving changing so can we say that the market demand in various jurisdictions shifting over time was due
00:51:14 was due to changes in regulation relating to fire performance
00:51:34 foreign
00:51:38 yes which jurisdictions can you be specific
00:52:06 [Music]
00:52:18 [Music]
00:52:29 for example
00:52:35 [Music]
00:52:58 foreign uh no i mean i couldn't uh explain in great detail what happened but we we could observe an
00:53:10 what happened but we we could observe an evolution
00:53:12 evolution the changes on the market over several years
00:53:15 years and in very general terms i mean for all the markets but i'm thinking mostly about the european uh market
00:53:24 market what we observed uh over time is that in some european countries gradually they would abandon the pe uh product to go entirely towards an fr product and
00:53:38 entirely towards an fr product and i think it's something i mentioned on tuesday that for example for the russian market all that happened before 2004 2005 2006
00:53:50 before 2004 2005 2006 and practically uh the pe product was abandoned from one year to the next and the our sales switched totally from b to f r for that
00:54:08 market
00:54:22 and from memory but i'm not absolutely certain about the country i'm going to say it's kazakhstan but i'm not true sure too sure but they'd forbidden the use of composite
00:54:36 panels
00:54:56 i can't establish a connection a link is the reason why the uh uk uh remained a pe market that the uk regulations
00:55:07 regulations permitted the sale of pe whereas gradually other markets other jurisdictions began to restrict it
00:55:33 yes i think so
00:55:39 were our comics competitors able to sell their fr
00:55:43 their fr products uh at pe prices do you know
00:56:09 [Music]
00:56:14 um [Music]
00:56:23 i mean it's a bit difficult to to say because
00:56:27 because as a general rule that type of information comes to us through our customers and of course our customers are going to try to get the best price
00:56:38 was our comics ultimate objective to sell fr core as standard even in the uk
00:56:46 uk mexican objectives it is
00:57:16 [Music]
00:57:26 i mean i don't think it was a question of
00:57:30 of specific objective but if we can say that the objective for us was uh to be competitive on the market and we knew that gradually the trend for the
00:57:41 knew that gradually the trend for the market
00:57:41 market was to go towards fr
00:57:45 and was that because arconic contemplated that even in the uk eventually
00:57:52 regulators would restrict pe on fire safety grounds
00:58:06 regulations
00:58:20 i'd like to go back to the previous question and then i'll answer that question
00:58:34 who [Music]
00:58:43 because for me even at the time when we could become aware of that gradual trend nonetheless the pe still had a role to play on the market
00:58:58 that answered something connected to your previous question and what was the role that pe would still have to play not withstanding
00:59:10 withstanding the trend towards regulatory restriction of pe
00:59:14 of pe it don't could be
00:59:30 foreign specific for some specific usage
00:59:40 [Music]
00:59:57 [Music] i mean for different things for example for the sort of partial cladding of a building for a very low height building or for interior
01:00:08 very low height building or for interior usage
01:00:12 were you aware that in 2016 there was an instruction to the french sales team to specify only fr for buildings regardless of height
01:00:26 from
01:01:05 [Music]
01:01:14 i believe that it was because we were better best better acquainted with french regulation and uh
01:01:35 and i think there was a kind of misunderstanding because french the french regulation said m1
01:01:46 and the parallel with the european
01:01:50 standard
01:02:04 but i think the instruction given wasn't to say we're not we're only going to be selling from
01:02:23 [Music] but we'd ask the client to evaluate fr as being the product of choice
01:02:37 and why wasn't that done in the uk it was
01:02:40 was a buffet
01:02:50 i don't know is help me with this is is one of the reasons that our comics saw the uk market as a market in which you
01:03:01 the uk market as a market in which you could sell p e called acm for use at height whereas in other markets it was more difficult to do that opportunity
01:03:14 considering
01:03:36 honestly i don't think so
01:03:42 well we may come back to this later
01:03:46 can then turn to a different topic um and looking at the period 2009 2010 uh and your knowledge of cladding fires i'd like to start please with your
01:03:57 i'd like to start please with your second witness statement in the french met3048331 page 14 paragraph 29 and in the english version
01:04:08 paragraph 29 and in the english version met3053187 page 10 paragraph 29 likewise
01:04:19 record description
01:04:46 uh there is a heading above paragraph 29 which says other fires uh we haven't got the french version of the heading on the screen i think you may need to scroll back to the page before in the french please
01:04:58 french please page the bottom of page 13 it's become separated do you see that
01:05:06 now if we could scroll back to the next yes
01:05:10 yes 29 together i will usually approach i'll read the english out and you look french please
01:05:19 you say aapsas had been aware of fires in high-rise residential blocks in previous years but that only one of those had involved reynobon pe that is a fire at taplao tower in london
01:05:31 that is a fire at taplao tower in london in 2012
01:05:33 in 2012 i now understand that the cladding system used at that building involved the insulation product rockwool although i did not recall being aware of that fire at the time it occurred it only became aware of it after the grenfell tower of fire
01:05:45 grenfell tower of fire i now understand that the fire had been contained and that there had been no loss of life i would also note that rainer bond 55 pe is very similar to other acm products made by other manufacturers and there would be very little
01:05:56 and there would be very little difference in the way that these products would react to fire i want to focus with you on the last three lines there please
01:06:07 sorry
01:06:12 when do you say previous years um when you say previous years do you mean before the grenfell tower fire parliament at the president
01:06:30 hello is the previous years uh in the beginning
01:06:35 beginning a few it's at the beginning of the paragraph tutorial
01:06:40 residential box in previous years
01:06:48 really yes uh now you say uh in the last three lines that you know that reynabon 55pe would perform similarly
01:06:59 similarly up to other acm products in a fire how do you know that
01:07:11 that's compared
01:07:20 [Music]
01:07:26 um [Music]
01:07:45 [Music] um
01:07:56 um [Music]
01:07:59 [Music] well because p is a product i'm not quite sure how to express it it's a basic product in other words it's got no adjuvants there's no recipe there's no mixture so therefore it's likely to respond in the same way as the others
01:08:12 respond in the same way as the others i see so this is an inference or assumption that you're making it's not an observation based on empirical evidence
01:08:32 now you mentioned the tableau house fire you called it it's taplow house did you know that that fire
01:08:41 fire uh involved renault pe in rivet fix not because
01:08:49 sandy house
01:09:08 no i didn't know that it would follow wouldn't it therefore that that fire in 2012 would not have been a reliable guide to how pe and cassette form would behave
01:09:21 to how pe and cassette form would behave in a fire
01:09:24 in a fire alex
01:09:32 from cassettes
01:09:42 about the different fire performances as between the cassette fix version and the riddick fixed version people might think that reynabon 55pe would perform in the way
01:09:55 reynabon 55pe would perform in the way that it did at taplow house las vegas
01:10:14 uh
01:10:32 [Music]
01:10:47 [Music]
01:11:05 [Music] um
01:11:11 um [Music]
01:11:20 well no i don't think so it's a parallel that i don't accept one has to consider the system as a whole i don't know tableau
01:11:26 tableau but there would have been insulation there would have been a system for attachment the windows would have been treated the surroundings the windows would have been treated
01:11:33 treated in a certain way there would be a fire break um
01:11:37 break um it's it's much more complicated it's a much more complicated subject matter
01:11:43 indeed but just looking at the differences in fire performance of the uh of the product itself renault 155
01:11:51 155 pe do you accept that the way it behaved at taclo house in that fire would be no guide at all uh to the way a cassette
01:12:01 cassette fix variant would behave in a file because of the differences in the test performance of each product
01:12:20 household
01:12:54 it's it's clear that we wouldn't have known uh what would have happened on that building if it had been
01:13:03 riveted no in cassette form sorry just the other way around interprets correcting herself now you mentioned a few fires that you were personally aware of
01:13:15 were personally aware of uh in your witness statement i want to look in particular first please at a far in bucharest in 2009
01:13:30 position
01:13:37 now you you mentioned this fire in your witness statement paragraph 30.2 we don't need to see it uh it's there um take it from me
01:13:49 it's there um take it from me that that was a fire in what was called the millennium business center in bucharest in july 2009
01:13:58 sorry
01:14:17 mr chairman i'm just looking at the time before i embark on the documents i wanted to show the witness
01:14:25 quite lengthy um relatively so um probably a convenient moment for a break now well i was just um kicking myself for not having intervened before you started on this particular
01:14:36 before you started on this particular question but having failed to do so i was going to wait and see what happened but i i do agree with you i think it would be sensible to have the break now so uh mr schmidt we are going to take
01:14:47 so uh mr schmidt we are going to take our break now uh we'll resume please at half past 11 and again i have to ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence during the break
01:15:08 um
01:30:05 welcome back everyone we're going to continue
01:30:09 continue uh hearing evidence from mr schmidt but as usual i'm just going to check that the interpreters can see and hear all that they should be able to interpret we can hear you we can see you very good
01:30:21 we can hear you we can see you very good everything is fine good thank you and mr schmidt are you there
01:30:29 yes i can hear you sir and can you see me as well yes thank you very much indeed and you're ready i hope to continue is it right yes
01:30:41 is it right yes thank you very much then mr millet you carry on when you're ready thank you mr chairman uh mr schmidt i want to show you claude verlet's exhibit
01:30:53 want to show you claude verlet's exhibit part 10 at page 122 english version m-e-t-3053158 underscore p10 page 122 french version met3053158
01:31:07 p10 page 122 french version met3053158 underscore p10 page 121.
01:31:14 cloud
01:31:32 uh uh the french version we want um 121. it's the same exhibit the page before
01:31:41 before please but i want to be able to show him them at the same time
01:31:48 yes thank you very much um now i'm going to look at the english but you look at the french please this is
01:31:57 this is this is an email from claude verle to you as well as to gee scheideker and robert quatrocchi dated the 17th of july 2009
01:32:10 dated the 17th of july 2009 the subject is pe in architecture
01:32:30 and he says hello and madame translator you don't need to translate the english we have the french on the screen if mr schmidt you could just read the text of the email in its entirety please while i read it out in english
01:32:42 while i read it out in english he says hello here are some pictures to show you how dangerous pe can be when it comes to architecture this is an incident that took place in bucharest romania
01:32:53 bucharest romania figure 1 shows the starting point short circuit due to overhead power lines the others show the spread of the fire along the facade made up of pe composite panels
01:33:02 panels and if we go down to page 123 please 123 in both the and the french
01:33:14 we can see in a sense the same picture this is a near shot of the damage done by the fire um you could see consciou that the cladding is smooth and doesn't seem to have rivets do you know or
01:33:25 have rivets do you know or can you tell us whether that is a cassette or rivet fix
01:33:55 no i couldn't tell you would you have expected claude verlet to have investigated what type of cladding or type of fixing that was whether it was cassette whether
01:34:06 that was whether it was cassette whether it was rivets
01:34:15 you say the fixation
01:34:26 [Music] possibly if you have access to the information yes can we go down to page 124 please uh this is a picture
01:34:41 we don't need a translation just look at that with you you can see damage up the entire building
01:34:49 building you see that
01:34:57 h125 a similar
01:35:32 uh where the conversation continues that's in the english version the french version is at 127.
01:35:40 conversations we have the two next to each other thank you very much now um at the second email from the top in in the english
01:35:51 in the english we can see and also in the french we can see
01:35:55 see uh that there is an email from claude vella to gee scheideker on the 24th of july 2009
01:36:08 you yes you look at the french and i'll read the english out he says there's ghee these are photos taken by raswam it's a
01:36:20 these are photos taken by raswam it's a building
01:36:20 building in bucharest with a product whose name i don't know these are pe composite panels and then if you look up the at the top of the email run at the top of the page there's an
01:36:32 run at the top of the page there's an email from claude verlet sorry from gee shy decker to claude verlet on the 26th of july uh in french and the 27th of july in the english
01:36:45 and the 27th of july in the english version
01:36:46 version there may be a time difference between the two
01:36:50 the two and it says in the english and you read along in french please claude thank you for the information it was clear it was acm in pe but i wanted to know if it was about
01:37:00 about rb or something else
01:37:11 now do you know uh either at the time or since whether this was an iconic product on
01:37:32 um
01:37:37 no i don't think it was an arcanic product because we never got feedback or any information back do you know why claude verles sent this email to his line manager keith
01:37:49 email to his line manager keith scheideker and to you
01:37:53 earlier superhero
01:38:07 [Music]
01:38:14 um
01:38:20 to make us aware of the possible behavior of pe uh faced with a fire yes and presumably uh mr verde brought it to your attention
01:38:32 it to your attention as the um most senior person at merchheim
01:38:36 merchheim because this was an important matter requiring your attention yes presumably
01:39:00 yes let's see what you say about this in your witness statement can we go to your second witness statement please uh page 11 in the english and 14 in the french
01:39:13 french position french met30 is 48331 page 14. in both cases paragraph 30.2
01:39:23 i refer to this paragraph very briefly before let's look at it now references
01:39:32 you uh
01:39:36 you say that french on the right english on the left uh exhibited at pages 17 and 18 are emails related to a fire in bucharest in 2009
01:39:47 2009 the emails are dated 17th 26th july 2009 references made to the panels on the building being pe composite but not manufactured by aap sas i do not recall these emails nor do i recall
01:39:58 recall these emails nor do i recall having any discussions with claude vella in relation to these emails right that you have no independent recollection of this fire all these emails
01:40:08 emails or any discussion that you might have had about this incident
01:40:20 is
01:40:50 it was an important event for the whole profession
01:41:02 certainly and and as we've seen in mr verle's email to you he said um it showed how dangerous pe can be when it comes to architecture
01:41:15 pe can be when it comes to architecture you can go back to the email if you like but what did you understand mr vale meant by that phrase
01:41:44 foreign
01:41:57 [Music] a
01:42:06 i mean i don't know i don't know what he meant
01:42:09 meant there but he probably expressed that on the facade and on the outside face of the building i mean it's gone now when you say that it was an
01:42:21 now when you say that it was an important event for the whole profession which profession are you referring to there
01:42:34 [Music]
01:42:43 for the manufacturers of composite panels and all the people who use those panels
01:42:54 as a result of being told about this matter which was important for the whole profession did you establish any uh education or training systems
01:43:06 uh education or training systems uh within arconic about the uses and dangers of pe on high-rise buildings
01:43:19 it is
01:43:33 no not as far as i know did arconic do anything
01:43:37 anything internally by way of response to or reaction
01:43:41 reaction to this event
01:43:47 [Music]
01:43:51 no no i don't think
01:44:08 [Music]
01:44:16 i don't know i mean maybe we could go back to the presentations that were made for commercial meetings and maybe during one of those commercial meetings claude might have talked about it or
01:44:29 claude might have talked about it or presented it but i don't know given the importance of this event as you say to the whole profession
01:44:39 why were no steps taken within arconic at the time to make sure uh that renault bond would not
01:45:14 here
01:45:34 [Music]
01:45:45 [Music]
01:45:59 [Music]
01:46:05 i think that
01:46:08 in fact if you look at the photograph i mean it's only the outside of the facade that's gone so that's the first thing and second as far as we knew there had been
01:46:20 second as far as we knew there had been no injury
01:46:22 no injury and we also knew that the product was used very widely and very generally
01:46:30 on the market
01:46:38 only
01:46:46 [Music] and besides i mean we didn't see on the market that the position of our competitors are changed
01:47:09 so that i'm clear is the reason why our conic took no steps
01:47:17 steps to do anything internally with rhino bond 55 pe
01:47:24 was because
01:47:28 it only affected the outside of this building there was no loss of life or no injury and it was a widely used product
01:47:36 product it is i got your evidence
01:47:59 [Music]
01:48:15 or others
01:48:38 i don't think so at this time did you have any
01:48:42 have any discussions yourself with claude verle or
01:48:45 or scheideker or anybody else at merkstein about the combustibility of pe chord acm that you would say
01:48:58 calculate
01:49:12 m
01:49:18 [Music]
01:49:27 information about the dangers of using pe cord acm
01:49:35 addressed
01:49:38 information duty
01:49:54 so
01:49:59 [Music] i would say no but i'm not certain we've not seen any mr schmidt so you're you'll know he's like
01:50:08 like correct but can you explain why not why didn't iconic aap sas put out customer information warning about the dangers of using pe called acn
01:50:50 b
01:50:58 i don't know
01:51:05 do you know whether aap told its sales forces
01:51:10 forces to warn customers about the dangers of pe cord acm and to check the local regulations carefully
01:51:46 no i don't know
01:52:11 [Music]
01:52:24 i believe that an information form of information of that type
01:52:31 that type was distributed throughout the commercial team but i don't know if there was a specific instructions the specific instruction given
01:52:47 what is the source of your belief that information of that type was distributed throughout the commercial team
01:53:12 [Music]
01:53:29 [Music]
01:53:34 it's because this commercial team they would meet regularly i mean there were about 15 people in the team and they would
01:53:46 people in the team and they would exchange regularly on lots of subjects and
01:53:49 and it's something we mentioned yesterday i mean they would meet at least once or twice a year in mexico have you seen any document either at the time
01:54:01 document either at the time or since up to today which told salespeople as a result of this fire in bucharest in 2009 to warn customers about the dangers
01:54:13 customers about the dangers of pe called acm and to check the local regulations carefully aviv
01:54:48 no now can we go to your second witness statement please friendship et3048331 page 15 paragraph 31 um
01:55:04 paragraph 31 um english version page 12 paragraph 31
01:55:14 i'm going to read the english version aloud and again mr schmidt if you would read paragraph 31 in the french to yourself it is before the grenfell fire
01:55:25 it is before the grenfell fire i do not believe i knew of any case where there had been any fatalities among the residents of a building in which acm panels with a pe core had been part of the cladding system where there had been a fire
01:55:37 a fire i therefore did not believe that end users including in the uk were using renault bomb pe improperly or not in conformance with local regulations
01:55:48 regulations the combination of all of this meant that until the grenfell tower fire aap sas reasonably believed that its product was being used safely and appropriately and that no specific
01:56:00 and appropriately and that no specific steps
01:56:01 steps therefore needed to be taken to inform or educate staff certifying bodies or customers or potential customers in respect of those fires
01:56:12 now is what you say in that paragraph um an iconic corporate view and approach or
01:56:24 and approach or merely your own personal view and approach
01:56:40 is
01:56:54 personnel
01:57:11 [Music] it's the point of view the position of arcenic but it's also mine so was it really
01:57:24 so was it really your and our comics view that pe should be judged to be fire safe
01:57:33 if if nobody actually dies
01:58:04 uh
01:58:08 i mean in the text we're not talking about
01:58:12 about death necessarily well look at the first two sentences
01:58:23 well look at the first two sentences please
01:58:26 are you not telling us that your and our comics
01:58:31 comics belief was uh that because there had been no fatalities you knew of among residents of a building in which acm panels with a pe cord been part of the cladding system
01:58:42 the cladding system you didn't believe that end users uh were using rene bond pe improperly
01:59:42 victims well i think this might be a problem in translation because victim doesn't mean a fatal fatal death or death
01:59:56 all right injury
02:00:05 so what is your question sir the question is whether it's really the case that human mortality was the appropriate measure used by our comic by which the fire safety
02:00:16 fire safety of pe called acm should be judged my question
02:00:24 is
02:00:39 no i'm sorry to intervene but i think your question did rather assume that victim in the french means death
02:00:51 in the french means death or of a fatality schmidt did make it clear in his previous answer that he did not understand that to be the meaning of victim so perhaps your question should be rephrased
02:01:03 be rephrased in a way which does not suggest that yes mr chairman i can certainly do that uh i should just say that we are working from um a dna pipe of
02:01:15 we are working from um a dna pipe of translation and it hasn't been checked rechecked by the inquiry against the french original and so we were going which does use the word fatalities but i shall certainly ask the question on the
02:01:26 shall certainly ask the question on the basis of the french victim uh now um what does the word let's go to your french
02:01:35 french let's go to the french version of paragraph 31
02:01:44 when you use the word de victim par me le residente
02:02:02 i mean
02:02:11 that there could be people that would be injured
02:02:15 injured so i'm going to rephrase my question is
02:02:20 personal injury human injury really an appropriate measure by which the fire safety of pe called acm should be judged
02:02:58 uh
02:03:04 it is one of the elements with regard to the evaluation yes so as a consequence of that do you think that it was appropriate did
02:03:16 do you think that it was appropriate did you think it was appropriate for arconic to wait and see if anybody was injured before doing anything at all to mitigate the risk of fire from use of pe called acm well escorted
02:03:49 no i didn't say that uh i did say that it was one of the elements for to resp for response
02:04:11 for response [Music]
02:04:22 [Music] um
02:04:36 the
02:04:40 [Music]
02:04:44 once again for me p uh did give rise to certain risks but there are also other products within the buildings industry that also give rise to certain risk but if the risks are contained or if the risks are mastered
02:04:56 contained or if the risks are mastered then uh it shouldn't uh lead to people being injured or or affected
02:05:05 you said earlier that this fire was a um of
02:05:09 of importance for the profession as a whole and you include fabricators in that uh do you recall whether as a result of this far there were discussions in the professional professions about
02:05:20 in the professional professions about this fire and the dangers of pe called acm for the video it is
02:05:32 it is a
02:05:50 no i don't know did arconic not seek to instigate discussions with competitors other participants in the pe acm market
02:06:03 other participants in the pe acm market to try to get to the bottom of what the true dangers of using pe called acm were in the light of this fire
02:06:14 uh
02:06:49 [Music]
02:06:56 a
02:07:10 well i believe that directly after the fire maybe not but in my opinion um and then mr schmidt didn't finish his sentence but he said maybe it would be a good it would be one would have to ask
02:07:21 a good it would be one would have to ask claude vale and i think that within the eea it would have also been discovered discussed
02:07:35 [Music]
02:07:38 very
02:07:48 and i also saw in the documents that there was an exchange between claude vale and one of his colleagues in 2011.
02:07:56 can i just correct it was the eaa sorry not the eea eaa
02:08:03 in the last uh interpretation on the transcript uh you said madame translator then mr schmidt didn't finish his sentence but yes
02:08:14 yes uh we just need to be clear about what he did saying what he didn't say are you i'm so sorry you're not adding something that you didn't say not at all
02:08:28 now
02:08:32 the absence of personal injury you've told us was one of the number of factors for our comics in action
02:08:42 action as a result of seeing this event being told about this event just so that i'm absolutely clear is that correct
02:09:00 the absence of the prejudice of personnel
02:09:30 yes now and staying with paragraph 31 please and can we have that back up with the french original
02:09:41 uh you say uh in uh the last sentence the combination of all of this meant that until the grenfell tower fire
02:09:53 that until the grenfell tower fire aap sas reasonably uh believed and the french's
02:10:02 that its product was being used safely and appropriately and that no specific steps therefore needed to be taken to informal educate staff certifying bodies or customers or potential customers in respect of those
02:10:14 potential customers in respect of those fires um i i want to know about your reasonable belief or in the french fresno estimate was the what was the basis of that
02:10:26 was the what was the basis of that reasonable
02:10:40 sorry sorry did you check that belief against others in the market
02:10:54 um
02:11:08 uh
02:11:23 [Music]
02:11:32 i can refer to the meeting that george vale had with one of his colleagues in 2011
02:11:50 [Music]
02:12:11 one must also say that there was no professional association that gathered together all players involved with acm
02:12:27 did you have any discussions about the dangers of using pacm with your fabricators such as cep or any others
02:12:54 [Music]
02:13:00 the person and i can't answer on behalf of everyone
02:13:05 i'd like to look now at some marketing literature for the period uh can we go to cep306143 61423 there's no french language version
02:13:16 61423 there's no french language version of this document
02:13:27 as far as we can see this is this was designed and drafted for use in the uk market
02:13:33 market and it's called uh discover new perspectives as you can see and you can date this to 2008.
02:13:58 can we go to the bottom of page 16 just to check that bottom of page 16 he's on the left hand
02:14:10 side
02:14:20 gb08 do you can you tell us whether confirm for us whether this document dates from 2008.
02:14:35 no i don't know can we go to page 13 please
02:14:44 and the table at the top of the page on the right hand side says certification and madam translator if you could interpret this as i go
02:14:55 interpret this as i go it says certification the document is certification and underneath that it says fire certification europe certification first line in the box
02:15:07 certification first line in the box says europe
02:15:10 sorry raynor bond uh reyna bond p e certification class b s 2 d naught certification number ra050
02:15:25 a that's a five uh cst b and then underneath that europe fr b s one d naught r a zero
02:15:58 and just while we're on that document you note that there is no certification number uh relating to cassette uh only for the rivet which is
02:16:09 uh only for the rivet which is certification r80500 uh 5a or 6a and that's 5a
02:16:37 uh and below that we can see the uk entries
02:16:41 entries class naught is claimed for both pe and fr can you see that
02:16:53 can you see that the certificate numbers show that the claim for class naught is for both pe and fr is based uh on uh the bs fi five
02:17:04 uh on uh the bs fi five um the the bs476 tests part six and seven tests under certification numbers seven zero seven zero seven and seven zero seven zero eight uh
02:17:17 seven zero eight uh and the test one three two three one six and one three two three one seven eight was carried out at warrington power research in the uk
02:17:58 before we leave that document can you explain why there's no reference there to the fire performance of reyna bond 55 pe and cassette fixed version
02:18:08 hello
02:18:22 can we go to uh another version at arc five series four four nine please again there's no french language equivalent
02:18:34 equivalent examination to documents this is another discover new perspectives brochure and if we can go to page 16
02:18:48 perspective bottom right hand corner and it's written bottom up i'm afraid and it will have to be expanded uh and if we can go to the right hand side
02:18:59 right hand side well there it is actually brc rbar gb 10. it looks to us as if this was a 2010 version of this document are you able to help us with that
02:19:33 no not at all um can we go to page 13 please
02:19:41 and uh mr schmidt here again we see a similar table on the right hand side under certification do you see that
02:19:54 certification
02:19:58 yes we can see that the printed table is the same as the 2008 version but this time somebody has annotated this document to indicate what appear to be amendments
02:20:21 yes i can see it you can see that the european pe result is completely crossed out
02:20:38 is also crossed out with the amendment fr
02:20:41 fr inserted in red instead
02:20:52 yes and all of the certification references are deleted in manuscript
02:21:04 [Music] do you agree just looking at this document now that somebody after this 2010 brochure was printed uh thought that they should amend the
02:21:17 uh thought that they should amend the claims
02:21:18 claims that it was making as indicated by the amendments
02:21:24 i mean
02:21:40 yes that is what it suggests there yes do you know who did that
02:21:50 no i have no idea you know when these amendments were made exclusively
02:22:01 no i have no idea were you involved in any kind of discussion or do you know whether mr burleigh was involved in any kind of discussion about amending the claims that were being made for the uk market about the
02:22:12 for the uk market about the classification prior classification of relevant fifty-five
02:22:34 um
02:22:38 [Music]
02:22:49 [Music] well this information comes from the marketing the documents for it comes from the marketing department and i think that
02:23:00 think that the information with regards to uh classification comes from claude valley's team
02:23:07 so is that another way of telling us that you can't answer but claude verlet or someone in this team could
02:23:14 could you know
02:23:24 do you accept looking at the document that somebody in claude velle or his team thought that the claims being made in the printed version of this document were wrong and need or had become outdated and needed to be changed
02:24:13 fair memory well it's difficult for me to accept
02:24:16 to accept i mean it does that's what it could allow you to think but i don't want to say
02:24:21 say definitively yes
02:24:25 you see the reason i'm asking you mr schmidt is
02:24:47 is there any reason why you can't provide us with the answer given your position at the time yes
02:24:54 it is
02:25:02 i wasn't involved in all aspects relating to sales and marketing
02:25:09 did you have any kind of general uh oversight of what the uh various marketing uh initiatives were in different countries and what the marketing department was doing
02:25:22 um
02:25:37 from a very general point of view yes but i wasn't at all involved in the details
02:25:50 in organization extern marketing and i'm not 100 sure but i think at the time we used an external organization for marketing
02:26:02 sorry a consultant and who is that is
02:26:21 sorry a consultant and who is that is a german company but i no longer remember the name did this german company have a role to play in advising our comic about what it should or shouldn't tell its customers in its market is
02:26:45 in english
02:27:00 uh
02:27:15 [Music]
02:27:33 no that organization defined defined our marketing strategy and our design strategy but the technical part technical part that we actually looked at before uh that would have been the sales team and claude vale that
02:27:44 the sales team and claude vale that would have looked at that uh if port verlae and the sales team had decided that they should be making changes to
02:27:55 changes to the claims made in relation to the fire classification of products such as render bond 55 would that not have come up to you for you at least to know about
02:28:10 commercial
02:28:31 [Music] no it would have gone to the uh sales department
02:28:43 [Music] in 2010
02:28:48 in 2010 yes i think so and would he not have brought these questions up to you or would would he just have dealt with him he's himself without coming to you yes
02:29:00 yes this is
02:29:13 [Music]
02:29:21 i had very few exchanges with regard to the document sorry but with regard to the marketing documents
02:29:30 i had very few what kind of exchanges would you have in relation to the content of marketing documents
02:29:46 [Music]
02:29:51 one would show me documents once once they've been finalized
02:29:56 and in fact already printed as well
02:30:03 but just for information do i understand from
02:30:06 from that answer that uh all uh finalized marketing documents would come to you for information
02:30:27 [Music]
02:30:30 which documents uh would come to you once finalized and printed and which would what kinds of documents would come to you
02:30:40 you once finalized and printed remedy
02:30:58 now
02:31:02 [Music]
02:31:21 [Music]
02:31:28 well no i mean it wasn't systematic and it wasn't
02:31:33 it wasn't specific either but the person in charge of marketing when the document was finalized sometimes they would show it to me but i would be totally unable to tell you now how many i did see and how many i did
02:31:45 how many i did see and how many i did not see
02:31:47 not see um i appreciate it wasn't systematic but can you give us a feeling for what what kinds of marketing documents in their final form you would see and what kinds of such arguments
02:32:08 documents
02:32:26 no i think once again it was spontaneous and there were no specific rules that applied
02:32:34 but i think we could take it that this document
02:32:57 [Music] and it wouldn't have been the normal process for me to see
02:33:04 them
02:33:15 now if it wasn't normal for you to see documents such as this what would trigger you seeing such a document in in the cases where you did
02:33:28 a document in in the cases where you did it
02:33:32 come
02:33:47 [Music]
02:34:03 well i simply think that what happened is that when somebody in marketing felt they were pleased with the work or they'd done a good job i mean they would like
02:34:12 like to show it to me
02:34:28 six four nine eight eight page one two five
02:34:31 five that's the english the french is at one two three can we please display both at the same time uh the french document is the bottom of the page
02:34:40 the page don't wanna do text francline personally this is an email run from march 2010 so the same year it seems in which
02:34:53 so the same year it seems in which the printed version of the marketing document we saw earlier
02:35:08 was produced
02:35:11 and the email i want to show you please uh is
02:35:14 uh is at the bottom of the page 123 up in the french and 125 in the english is
02:35:27 in the english is and it's the 15th of march 2010 from isabel noises to gee shydecker and frederick mignon
02:35:39 gee shydecker and frederick mignon and you could just see at the bottom of the screen in the english but very clearly in the french uh infomercia espana larsen it market info for spain larsen i'm
02:35:51 it market info for spain larsen i'm going to read the whole of the email to you
02:35:54 you uh in uh
02:35:57 uh in uh in english and it can be read in french
02:36:13 and we can see her email as i say is the gishai decker
02:36:18 claude verlet is copied and she says for your information roman has confirmed to me that larson are obliged to recommend and install fr for
02:36:29 to recommend and install fr for architectural use in spain since with their pe product they don't have the minimum s3 dt classification required under spanish law at the moment rongom have the
02:36:41 at the moment rongom have the opportunity to recommend pe as the counteroffer given that the reynold bond pe classification is bs2d naught but if we recommend using our fr our prices are no longer in line with market
02:36:52 prices are no longer in line with market trends
02:36:52 trends note it's the same for al pollock but what's more the last offer made for the portuguese market has been in rbfr since the project is proposed in last larsen fr this market trend
02:37:05 larsen fr this market trend needs to be looked at very carefully and her signature is on the next page of the english but it's there on the french i don't need to go to it in the english can we then look please at claude
02:37:17 can we then look please at claude verlet's response to isabel moyeses and geesh scheideker and frederic mignon the next day 16th of march at the top
02:37:29 16th of march at the top report very
02:37:40 hello i think larson have based themselves on the test conducted on products in cassette form contrary wise to what might be expected the above type of test is much less
02:37:51 the above type of test is much less favorable
02:37:52 favorable for the composite than for riveted products and reynabond pe in cassette form doesn't obtain level b either exclamation mark having said that this shortfall in relation to this
02:38:03 this shortfall in relation to this standard is something that we have to keep as a
02:38:05 keep as a capital letters very confidential for exclamation marks now we've already seen that our conic according to claude verl arconic had no
02:38:18 according to claude verl arconic had no reason to suspect that the result of test 5b on cassette was
02:38:23 was anything other than a rogue you remember
02:38:45 yes my question is if our colleague
02:38:51 claude verlet for this purpose genuinely believed
02:38:54 believed that the result of test 5b was a rogue or aberrant he would have said so in this message would he not make history
02:39:22 yes does that tell us perhaps that in fact he
02:39:26 fact he knew very well that says 5b was not a rogue
02:39:30 rogue hello rescue depart
02:39:36 from
02:39:42 [Music] yes except if it carried out another test in the meantime but something i know nothing about do you accept that if arconic genuinely
02:39:54 accept that if arconic genuinely believed
02:39:55 believed that cassette was safer than rivet claude verley would have said
02:40:04 cassettes
02:40:21 do you mean would have said it in this email
02:40:24 email yes yes are we we yes
02:40:31 and if our colleague was right about test 5b
02:40:36 test 5b and thought it was a rogue there would be no need for such a high degree of confidentiality that mr verley insists on would there see arcane cave
02:41:00 foreign right yes do you know is claude vernon right that when he says that archonic well why
02:41:11 that when he says that archonic well why don't we try it again does he is third velo correct to say that arconic knew that cassette fix was not really a class b
02:41:28 b
02:41:34 could you repeat your question sir please
02:41:39 iconic knew didn't it at this time that cassette fix was not really a class b
02:41:49 seven spark system fixation cassette net power
02:41:56 clasp
02:42:01 reading this email yes and reading this email that was something that mr verley wanted to keep very confidential
02:42:20 yes that's what's expressed there can you explain why mr verlai wanted to keep the fact that cassette fix was not a class b
02:42:31 class b very confidential yes
02:42:38 confidence
02:42:45 no no do you accept that customers who bought pe rena bond 55 in pe uh in cassette form
02:42:56 rena bond 55 in pe uh in cassette form uh were being misled into thinking that it had a class b euro class when it didn't escape the client
02:43:29 but customers wouldn't buy a cassette form
02:43:32 form with us
02:43:51 [Music]
02:44:05 you asked me whether the customer what happened to the customer when he bought a pe product cassette variation but that's not what happens the customer doesn't buy
02:44:17 doesn't buy a cassette form product from us they buy a flat panel from us
02:44:28 any architect or designer or building professional would think that reynobon 55pe fabricated into cassette had a class b
02:44:40 fabricated into cassette had a class b when in fact as we've established from this email at least it didn't
02:45:12 yes do you accept that arconic through mr verlet knew that such people architects
02:45:23 that such people architects designers construction professionals were being misled by the claimed fire certification for cassettes
02:45:40 the concept
02:45:54 set
02:46:02 yes and looking at this email that's now something
02:46:05 something march 2010 that iconic knows isn't it shortfall between the claim uh for cassette
02:46:14 cassette and the actual classification
02:46:20 on it
02:46:37 effective
02:46:44 yes was there by delivery sorry do you want to finish your qualifier
02:46:59 [Music]
02:47:04 um
02:47:09 no i can't deny what this email says so i can only observe accept what is said there
02:47:19 you accept that arconic was deliberately and dishonestly misleading its customers about the claimed fire certification for cassette variant for
02:47:30 certification for cassette variant for reynabon 55pe
02:48:00 foreign
02:48:11 [Music]
02:48:14 uh
02:48:18 [Music]
02:48:24 well in any case regarding the b classification i mean according to the euro norm yes
02:48:34 and that explains why mr verlay wanted to keep the shortfall between the truth and the claim
02:48:42 claim very confidential
02:48:56 reality
02:49:01 probably can you explain how this deception was being practiced on your watch in other words well you were
02:49:24 president no no can we scroll up to the top email please
02:49:39 email please on page one two five most of them tag one two three of the french thank you so much mr schmidt
02:49:50 so much mr schmidt this is an email sent many years later
02:49:56 uh and i'm just looking at the french and wondering whether that's true um the date in the french is in march 2010 it's the same day
02:50:09 is in march 2010 it's the same day 16th of march 2010 in the english uh it seems to have become either transposed or translated as sent in march 2016
02:50:21 as sent in march 2016 from uh gee scheideker to claude verlay i don't know whether you can help with that issue um do you happen to know whether this is
02:50:32 um do you happen to know whether this is sent uh
02:50:33 sent uh on the same day from guishai decker
02:51:14 no i can't help you i'm not surprised about
02:51:21 mr schmidt can you just remind us uh was uh ghee scheideker still a commercial director in march 2016.
02:51:56 [Music] uh
02:52:12 uh no i'm not sure but that's something that uh i think but that's something that needs to be checked he was no longer the head of
02:52:23 checked he was no longer the head of marketing for merck sign but he may have been reintegrated into the marketing for ap the u.s and other european uh sites
02:52:34 and other european uh sites good thank you thank you very much merci yes mr millet yes uh i i think in fact uh
02:52:46 i i think in fact uh it was alain flacco isn't it who uh took over
02:52:49 over and she does role as sales and director uh in 2013 and he had that role in 2000 until 2016. that's correct i think it's interesting
02:53:08 to direct
02:53:20 i think he arrived in 2012. at any rate 2016 kishadeka was not in that department so i'm going to proceed on the basis that this email was sent to claude
02:53:31 that this email was sent to claude verlet by
02:53:31 verlet by gishai dekker on the on the 16th of march 2010
02:53:50 um
02:54:03 my question is look at the text please and he says in the english let's have a friendship as well
02:54:12 uh look at the french on the right english on the left claude ver digidecker says to this shouldn't even have been mentioned
02:54:28 do you accept this email
02:54:35 do you accept that this email shows us that even the senior team uh was not surprised to know about the shortfall in relation to reyno
02:55:14 um
02:55:18 [Music]
02:55:23 once again i don't know exactly what dee schneiderker was trying to say there but it does suggest that and it looks as if our colleague was simply keen
02:55:35 as if our colleague was simply keen to stop this information getting out do you accept that
02:55:56 foreign
02:56:00 [Music] yes it seems to say that
02:56:12 yes it seems to say that did gee scheideker report to you at this time
02:56:23 yes did he mention this to you
02:56:33 no no no no i don't think so no i don't think so you could have remembered wouldn't you if arconic was perpetrating a deceit on
02:56:45 if arconic was perpetrating a deceit on its customers you remember you schedule telling you something like that wouldn't you don't
02:57:06 in theory yes can you explain can you account for how shy deco was in on this secret but you weren't
02:57:20 escaped
02:57:31 does that tell us that there was some kind of failure in the reporting structure or the information flows within our conic at the time
02:57:46 the problem download
02:58:02 uh [Music]
02:58:18 [Music]
02:58:23 well in all cases i could never be aware of absolutely everything that went on within the organization but in this specific case yes we're talking about information that
02:58:35 we're talking about information that should have gone back up to me when was the first time you saw these emails mr schmidt you can say that email
02:58:54 i don't think i saw them before today jose
02:59:03 and i'm not even sure that i might have seen them after grenfell
02:59:10 mr chairman uh it's one minute to one i am going to turn to a different topic and indeed a different year 2011 so this might be very convenient i think it would be a very appropriate moment mr millet
02:59:21 moment mr millet yes well mr schmidt will have a break now so that we can all have some lunch
02:59:36 um we'll resume at two o'clock uk time please
02:59:42 please and again please remember not to speak to anyone about your evidence during the break in parliament
02:59:54 please thank you very much
03:01:59 you