Cross-examination of Claude Wehrle from Arconic regarding the BBA certificate for Reynobond 55 PE and critical fire safety classifications
00:00:02 welcome back everyone we're now ready to continue hearing evidence from mr schmidt but as always i'll just begin by checking that the interpreters are with us and that they can hear clearly
00:00:14 with us and that they can hear clearly we can hear you clearly and we are with you thank you very much indeed now mr schmidt you're back with us i hope are you mr schmidt who's at la vic no really and i can hear you
00:00:27 really and i can hear you hello mr shrimp then and you're ready to carry on i hope
00:00:32 you want to spare yes good thank you very much yes mr millet thank you thank you mr chairman mr schmidt we were looking together at the uh bva
00:00:44 looking together at the uh bva certificate for reyno bond 55 uh if we could please go back to that document
00:00:52 certificate
00:00:57 and consent shown you some of this document already and clauses 6.1 and 6.2 within section 6 behavior in relation to fire centers
00:01:24 read along in the french while i read the english
00:01:29 as a consequence of section 6.1 and 6.2 the products may be regarded as having a class naught surface in relation to
00:01:40 a class naught surface in relation to the approved document b of the building regulations 2000 as amended england and wales and technical booklet e of the building regulations northern ireland 2000 as amended
00:01:50 amended the low-risk material is defined in annex 2c
00:01:53 annex 2c and x2e the building scotland regulations 2004 as amended the unexposed side of the product may also be regarded as having a class naught surface
00:02:05 as having a class naught surface just pausing there the do you remember maybe you don't that the the statement about the unexposed side is a conclusion drawn from the rhino lux
00:02:16 is a conclusion drawn from the rhino lux certificate do you know that uh
00:02:35 no not at all looking at 6.4 it says these performances may not be achieved by other colors of the product and the designations of a particular color should be confirmed
00:02:47 color should be confirmed by england and wales test or assessment in accordance with the proof document b appendix a clause one and then there are further tests standards referred to in
00:02:58 further tests standards referred to in relation to scotland and northern ireland i don't think i need to read to you
00:03:03 you uh and then if you look we'll finish this off still on page five of the english version but we need to go we're on the right page on the french version 6.5 it says for resistance to fire the
00:03:15 it says for resistance to fire the performance of a wall incorporating the product can only be determined by tests from a suitably accredited laboratory and is not covered by this certificate 6.6
00:03:25 6.6 cavity barriers should be incorporated behind the cladding as required by the national building regulations but should not block essential ventilation pathways particular attention should be paid to
00:03:36 particular attention should be paid to preventing the spread of fire from within a building breaching the cladding system through window and door openings
00:03:43 openings six cats
00:03:48 yes now i've taken you through the principal sections of the certificate so that you've got it fresh in your mind including
00:03:56 including before the break 6.1 and 6.2 mr schmidt and i want now to show you so you've got the text in in your mind i now want to show you what mr verlei says about this certificate
00:04:12 is
00:04:27 say that you're you know where i'm going with the questions what i'm i want to know
00:04:31 know is how some of the statements that i've shown you
00:04:35 shown you came to be on this certificate right
00:04:40 direction
00:04:56 yes let's go to claude vale's witness statement
00:05:00 statement english page 16 french page 20 please in both cases paragraph 55.
00:05:08 positions
00:05:14 and he says at paragraph 55 uh if we can have the french up as well please
00:05:22 that's page 20. french version thank you uh he says
00:05:31 i cannot recall he says i cannot recall whether or to what extent i read through the content of the bba certificate but i was not aware until after the grenfell tower fire of the precise detail of its content
00:05:43 detail of its content i want to ask you about that first mr schmidt was it not claude verle's job to know what was in the bba certificate
00:06:04 foreign see louis was an akp yes it was for him or his team yes
00:06:14 was it his job to read through it make sure every detail was correct and
00:06:32 approved
00:06:44 [Music]
00:06:49 well if you think about a job description i don't think we would go that far into details but if you think about his
00:06:56 about his task in general his job in general yes i think it was for him to do it and his english was good enough to do that was it
00:07:07 that was it is
00:07:14 yes all right now let's look then at some of the correspondence uh
00:07:22 well no let's go yes let's go to some of the correspondence at the time and i want to show you uh an exhibit exhibit 16 from mr verne's witness statement
00:07:42 met three zeros five three one five eight
00:07:45 eight underscore p16 page 15.
00:07:51 now i should tell you while the document is being retrieved there is no french translation of this
00:08:00 later to translate the whole of the email to you please
00:08:07 exist
00:08:23 excuse me
00:09:18 [Music]
00:09:48 etc now i want just to read out the relevant part in english but let me introduce the document in english
00:09:57 english it's mandy osmond on thursday the 22nd of november 2007. and this email the second one down on the page
00:10:06 the page uh is to mr verde from gglines uh in fact and uh the first line of the email
00:10:18 the first line of the email under the heading renault architectural wall planning panel says we enclose a copy of the proposed certificate for the above product and would appreciate your written approval of the draft
00:10:42 and if we go to page 17 please we can see draft one of the bba certificate was attached
00:10:52 on draft one and uh we can then go to claude verlet's response to this email can we please have the bottom of page 35 at the top of page 36
00:11:12 emails it's the email at the bottom of page 35 onto page 36. i'm going to read it in english first aloud and then i'm going to ask you to translate the whole
00:11:23 translate the whole whole of the email into french for the witness please absolutely um it's from claude verlet to mandy osman on the 23rd of november uh 20 uh 2007 uh copy to jemo
00:11:37 uh 20 uh 2007 uh copy to jemo gregorian and it says hello i have some remarks on one description after see figure one instead of a duragloss coating a pv
00:11:48 duragloss coating a pv df coating can you write and you and then as red uh a duragloss or pvdf coating protects the exposed face in many different colors to outside exposure
00:12:00 different colors to outside exposure the onyx based face is protected with a polyester primer and then in green someone has written and we can see in the later email text
00:12:11 and we can see in the later email text will be amended as advised and then under under 1.3 can you add the two dimensions 2 000 times 3 000 and 2 000 times 4 000 and then in green underneath that text
00:12:22 and then in green underneath that text will be amended as advised and then on 6.1 6.1 which we saw in total in this final form can you add the results of our fire certification
00:12:34 the results of our fire certification for rayner bond fr b s1 d naught test report sent to hamo some a month ago
00:12:42 ago uh in green i do not appear to have received this report please re-send so sir shall we shall i translate this
00:13:05 [Music]
00:14:06 now if we go to the next email up uh on the left hand side in the english hammer gregorian to claude verlet on 23rd november 2007
00:14:18 on 23rd november 2007 friday the 23rd of november 2007. in green he says claude please find my response below in green regards
00:14:26 regards hey moe and then
00:14:42 m and then above that claude verley responds to haemo gregorian the same day hello please find and close the document for our rhino bond fr certification regards claude don't
00:14:55 fr certification regards claude don't call it
00:15:10 claude and then the next email up from uh hamo gregorian to plod verle again the same day 23rd of november 2007. claude the report is fine i'll add
00:15:22 2007. claude the report is fine i'll add appropriate statement to section 6.1 regards
00:15:41 and then at the very top of page 35 in the english we see hey because we see um an email from claude verde back to hamilton gregorian again on the 23rd of november 2007.
00:15:52 again on the 23rd of november 2007. thank you very much for your help just a quick last question on page three of eight general this certificate is a confirmation french agreements two slash o four uh hyphen one zero eight
00:16:05 slash o four uh hyphen one zero eight one and
00:16:06 one and can you write this certificate as a confirmation french agreements two zero seven iphone 1244 and in fact our abbey technique is a new number since it has been a
00:16:17 number since it has been a a review on april this year you can find it in attachment sorry
00:17:02 uh
00:17:17 in late november 2007 can i now show you another email run in december 2007 at uh same exhibit page
00:17:28 in december 2007 at uh same exhibit page 55
00:17:29 55 and again i'm afraid there's no french
00:17:46 all right now that does not appear to be the right
00:17:50 the right document uh yes no what if i said 55 that's my error it's one five five yes that's the right document thank you
00:18:02 yes that's the right document thank you my mistake uh and this is an email uh i i'll read it in the english and then madame translator if you could translate to the witness please from mandy osmond again of the bba
00:18:14 from mandy osmond again of the bba copied to others with the bba dear mr verda
00:18:18 verda and she says please find enclosed a copy of the final accepted draft of the proposed agreement certificate the above product i would welcome your approval of it this is the draft we shall send to our chief
00:18:29 is the draft we shall send to our chief executive for formal issue of the certificate and then in bold to request changes during or after formal issue will cause delay as well as resubmission of the draft
00:18:38 draft and may well result in further costs to your company we recommend therefore that you satisfy yourself now that the draft meets your requirements in full if we have not heard from you by 8th of
00:18:49 if we have not heard from you by 8th of january 2007 we should assume you are satisfied with the draft and will proceed to issue please let me know immediately if you wish us to continue before this date we cannot enter into discussions concerning the certificate but you
00:19:01 concerning the certificate but you should satisfy yourself the publication can proceed as this is the final stage before publication we would advise you to check the sample thoroughly though we exercise a rigorous check at all stages
00:19:12 exercise a rigorous check at all stages as with all complex documents there may be a few occasions when problems remain undetected as is normal with publishing stroke printing the responsibility for final checking rests with you the client
00:19:23 final checking rests with you the client for your information once the certificate is formally issued we will confirm this to you and enclose a copy of the issued certificate for information only just before we send the certificate to our printer
00:19:35 and we if we
00:21:56 etc thank you uh now if we go down to page one five seven we can talk about this you can see
00:22:09 we can talk about this you can see the document that was attached to mandy osmond's
00:22:12 osmond's email on between on this date
00:22:22 and we know from other documents which i'll show you briefly that this certificate in draft draft three
00:22:29 three was sent to colin southgate and deborah french
00:22:32 french in early january 2008.
00:22:38 versions
00:22:48 can we go to page 165 for example in this
00:22:52 this email
00:22:59 uh i'm so sorry yes that's right page 165
00:23:04 165 and you could see the second email down in that email run is from claude verlais to colin southgate to deborah french on the second of january 2008
00:23:15 the second of january 2008 and it says i'll read it in english and then it can be translated to you in french
00:23:18 french hello and first happy new year 2008. can i ask you to read the attached document and send me any comment asap regards claude claude
00:23:31 regards claude claude deborah french yeah collinsgate
00:23:48 salutations
00:23:52 now i've shown you uh details of emails in november and december 2007 and early 2008
00:24:10 do you accept that claude verlet was involved in the detailed drafting and approval
00:24:15 approval of the bba certificate
00:24:31 verlet says as i've shown you at paragraph 55 of his witness statement that he was not aware until after the grenfell tower fire of the precise detail of its content
00:24:42 detail of its content that is wrong isn't it donkey
00:25:12 i mean yes you're right but i mean we mustn't forget ten years elapsed in between and uh yes i mean that's my opinion yeah indeed are you able to explain how
00:25:23 yeah indeed are you able to explain how it is that mr verlais was able to assert in his witness statement that he was not aware until after the grenfell tower fire of the precise detail of the content of the bba certificate
00:25:54 no
00:26:02 uh can i ask you to be shown in the transcript for day 91 which was yesterday please at page six
00:26:16 transcriptions by season
00:26:37 and at line 25 i'm going to read it in english but then but i'll read it in english and then madam translator if you could translate into french there will have been a french
00:26:48 french version of this in the record but i am afraid i can't lay my hands on it because
00:26:52 because it'll be an audio recording but uh we can
00:26:55 can imagine you can translate it please
00:27:10 you told us yesterday this i believe this is like 25. i believe having discussed this with claude verlet after the fire at grenfell but we were not aware of what was written within the
00:27:21 not aware of what was written within the fire test
00:27:22 fire test what was written within the bba certificate with regard to fire tests european fire tests
00:27:32 japanese
00:28:00 european
00:28:15 answer this is your answer mr burleigh mr schmidt so the bba certificate after discussing with claude verle after the grenfell fire claude verlet was not aware of the fire references
00:28:26 was not aware of the fire references made within the bba certificate
00:28:51 oh sorry yes are you telling the inquiry that claude verne told you that he did not know of the references to european class b in the bba certificate
00:29:10 certificate yes i think that that at least he hadn't remembered it anyway
00:29:24 916 question are you able to explain why arconic did not correct the false statement in its bba certificate about euro class b in relation to until after the grenfell
00:29:35 in relation to until after the grenfell tower fire
00:29:38 don't
00:29:53 921 answer well i think i already answered the question i got i get the impression that we weren't aware of it
00:30:12 now my question for you mr schmidt is remembering that conversation with mr verley after the fire did he tell you did he tell you
00:30:24 did he tell you did he tell you that he was not aware of the fire references made within the bba certificate
00:30:34 oh
00:30:48 yes
00:30:52 do you accept me having shown you the emails from november and december 2007 and early 2008 but what he was telling you during that conversation
00:31:16 m
00:31:30 yes
00:31:44 uh
00:31:53 well i don't know if he did it deliberately once again 10 years had elapsed so i didn't know whether he just didn't remember what was written within that certificate
00:32:03 did he tell you i'm so sorry do continue didn't man you have chris
00:32:10 specifically did he tell you that he was not involved in the drafting of the bba certificate
00:32:25 sorry let me put the question again did he tell you that he was not aware of the fire references made in the bba certificate or that he couldn't remember what they were escaped
00:32:58 [Music] maybe i'm not being precise enough but i can't confirm one way or the other
00:33:10 can't confirm one way or the other let's look then at the bba certificate now i've shown you quite a lot of it
00:33:17 having read the certificate as we've seen from the email exchanges in late 2007
00:33:23 2007 early 2008 you have expected that claude verlet
00:33:28 verlet would have pointed out any errors or emissions
00:33:32 emissions in it as he was asked to do our
00:34:04 yes can you explain why mr verlet did not point out to the bba that the certification euro class b related only to the rivet form of pe
00:34:17 related only to the rivet form of pe and not to the cassette
00:34:39 can you explain why it is that arconic uh and mr valley in particular failed to draw the distinction between the fire performance of cassette
00:34:50 between the fire performance of cassette and the fire performance of rivet in pe to the attention of the bb-8
00:35:00 sort of
00:35:15 the performance no no can you explain why the certificate does not
00:35:22 does not state that the test result euro class b s2 d naught was achieved for pe only in the rivet
00:35:33 was achieved for pe only in the rivet form but not in set form certificate
00:35:48 no you accept that that omission made the certificate thoroughly misleading
00:36:05 yes do you accept that it was thoroughly misleading because it pretended that the cassette fix version
00:36:13 version of reynobon 55 in standard pe was covered by a euro class b standard classification when in fact it
00:36:24 standard classification when in fact it wasn't
00:36:52 um
00:37:17 but i think we all have french
00:37:35 reference system so no reference is made to the system
00:37:42 okay okay right do you want to change any of your answers have you been shown this document
00:37:54 no i just like to come back to the question the question is really this i'm looking at paragraph 6.1 of the english version if you like or the french version
00:38:05 the french version do you accept uh that the reason why paragraph 6.1 at the very least was very misleading was because it pretended that the cassette fixed variant uh of renault 55 p e
00:38:19 uh of renault 55 p e was covered by a euro class b classification when in fact it wasn't like history
00:38:30 paragraph
00:39:06 neither is regard cassette or riveted system
00:39:11 you say it's not clearly stated i'm suggesting to you that it's positively misleading because it conceals the fact that the product which achieved
00:39:23 that the product which achieved b s 2 d naught was in fact the riveted variant
00:39:54 set
00:40:01 yes it wasn't sufficiently precise or clear
00:40:05 clear can you explain why claude vale having been given a number of opportunities and told expressly
00:40:13 expressly to bring to the bba's attention any errors or emissions did not tell them about test five b or tell them
00:40:26 b or tell them that only the rivet version of ray lebron 55 pe achieved that classification
00:40:36 is
00:40:55 [Music]
00:41:13 i can't explain it i would just be making suppositions you see the question i would ask mr verlai if he was sitting where you are sitting mr schmidt uh is why he let
00:41:27 uh is why he let this text fall out given what he knew can you explain that can you give the answer that he would give
00:41:57 so you're unable to tell us why this certificate of paragraph 6.1 did not
00:42:06 not simply state the truth which was that only the pe rivet version of raynerd155 had obtained euro class b
00:42:32 no no i would be suggesting to mr verlay that his communications with the bba in which he did not make this clear to
00:42:45 in which he did not make this clear to them
00:42:46 them was deliberate and dishonest can you answer that question
00:42:56 communications
00:43:11 as managing director at the time this document was approved and sent out by the bba are you able to account for how arconic
00:43:24 are you able to account for how arconic allowed
00:43:24 allowed this
00:43:38 um
00:43:51 no were there any systems in place within our conic at the time late 2007 early 2008 to ensure that those occupying claude
00:44:03 to ensure that those occupying claude verlet's position in the company did not make false and misleading statements to our connex market
00:44:11 system
00:44:20 responsibility
00:44:34 b
00:44:38 [Music]
00:44:48 ah
00:45:21 [Music]
00:45:37 [Music]
00:45:45 yes we had a quality system we had iso 9001 which was established since 1993 so all processes in principle um had to um had to be followed
00:45:59 had to um had to be followed we took or we considered the audits were something that was constructive um companies are not necessarily perfect and be far from perfect uh we can always improve them um and so
00:46:11 uh we can always improve them um and so we considered audits to represent an opportunity
00:46:19 what went wrong in this case
00:46:41 up i don't know okay
00:46:54 now
00:46:59 i want to show you a document that is a little bit later in time
00:47:09 time but now let me go back to that later on forgive me mr schmidt uh i've seen a
00:47:24 forgive me mr schmidt uh i've seen a message that there may have been a translation question in the last uh last few questions we'll look at that at the break and they have to revisit that last line if necessary can i then move on to
00:47:37 if necessary can i then move on to section section 6.5 of the bba certificate um what i want to do first of all is to go back to the bba certificate in both languages and go to section 6.5
00:47:48 in both languages and go to section 6.5 we looked at it just before or just after the
00:48:07 exactly in the french you'll need to go to the next age there it is thank you um just to remind you of 6.5 it says for resistance to fire the performance of a wall incorporating the product can only be determined by
00:48:19 the product can only be determined by tests from a suitably accredited laboratory and is not covered by this certificate now i'll show you that again can we go to claude verne's witness statement please uh english page 17 french page 21
00:48:33 uh english page 17 french page 21 in both cases of paragraph 58
00:48:57 um and he says apparently 58 the bba certificate also makes it very clear that i'm going to read in english please if you read this the statement in french parent 58 they've
00:49:08 statement in french parent 58 they've got both english versions up sorry if you want the english and the french english page 17 french page 21 please thank you
00:49:31 thank you all right french met 3048342 page 21. yes thank you very much okay uh mr schmidt if you read paragraph 58 in french to yourself i'll read the
00:49:42 in french to yourself i'll read the english aloud he says the bba certificate also makes it very clear in paragraph 6.5 that in relation to resistance to fire performance of a wall incorporating the
00:49:53 performance of a wall incorporating the product i.e the performance of an actual cladding system as opposed to a mock system under test conditions could only be determined by tests from a suitably accredited laboratory and would not be covered by the
00:50:04 and would not be covered by the certificate which related to the product and not the method of fixing or any other feature of the system in other words the fact that the certificate explains the pe sample achieved an enb classification in a particular systems
00:50:16 classification in a particular systems test was not a guarantee that the outcome would be the same in different systems
00:50:20 systems with different fabrications now you may not be able to help me with this i have a number of technical questions and if you can't help me then you can't help me but um
00:50:31 i'm showing you that is claude verle referring there to full systems tests such as the british standard 8414 test that we have in the uk or the
00:50:43 8414 test that we have in the uk or the lepir2 test in france is that what you mean
00:50:52 techniques
00:51:28 [Music]
00:51:45 well i don't know whether that's what he's saying here that could be the case i i i imagine but i can't confirm 100 i mean i've heard mention made of these tests
00:51:55 tests i know roughly what they are um the reason i ask is because we can find no record of any tests of a whole facade build-up in the uk
00:52:06 uk incorporating renewable 55 pe core at any time before the grenfell tower of fire are you aware of any there is a
00:52:35 no no let's get back to the certificate then if we may at um back at bba 6047 page five french arc underscore t all zeroes
00:52:48 french arc underscore t all zeroes twelve
00:52:49 twelve uh page seven thank you uh and uh look at paragraph six point five again last time or third time i think
00:53:13 that's not the same thing is it as reaction to fire
00:53:26 reactions yes
00:53:35 and did you appreciate the distinction between reaction to fire and resistance to fire when you did your witness statement
00:53:54 [Music]
00:53:59 i'm not sure that i was making a difference sorry of differentiating
00:54:14 can i then go to the document i wanted to show you uh which is a little bit later in the chronology june 2010 but it's i think it's convenient to pick it up at this stage cep
00:54:25 this stage cep three zeros five three three seven eight
00:54:30 more minutes
00:54:36 measured
00:54:40 now this is a document called renault bond fabrication guideline step by step to a perfect cladding and we believe the date is june 2010
00:54:53 and we believe the date is june 2010 and the reason mr schmidt we believe that is because arconic has confirmed that as the date of the production of this document my first question is did you see this document in 2010
00:55:32 foreign
00:55:39 okay have you ever seen this document before arrived
00:55:52 probably do you remember when you first saw it do you think escobar played no let's look at page
00:56:05 no let's look at page 12 please
00:56:14 this uh is about machining
00:56:18 i'm afraid i don't believe we have the french version of this document and if we do i apologize find it but work with me in the english um
00:56:29 um can you see that it deals with general fabrication techniques if you just translate that for me on the left
00:56:56 if you haven't seen this document before maybe there's a limited amount
00:57:07 can you see that it explains how to cut through the aluminium in order to create a 90 degree right angle
00:57:24 aluminium on the right hand side of the document
00:57:29 you can see that there the right angle at the bottom right way right yes and uh can you see that that exposes the pe core
00:57:45 yes then on page 13
00:57:51 we can see that there are further diagrams under the heading fold and counterfold
00:58:02 and again do you see that these diagrams show the opening up of the pe core to exposure
00:58:13 to exposing
00:58:16 yes and just for the reference purposes i should just say that uh the core of this material here in this document is p e not fr that's clear from page 34.
00:58:29 e not fr that's clear from page 34. my question is given the fire behavior exhibited by test 5b
00:58:41 test 5b on rayno bond pe cassettes why did arconic provide advice and guidance such as this you can see in the diagrams on how to fabricate cassettes and expose the core without any risk
00:58:55 and expose the core without any risk without any warning as to the risks of fire questions
00:59:32 i can't answer and does it mean that you can't answer this question that iconic would have known or should have known at least that in recommending
00:59:43 at least that in recommending methodologies of fabrication such as this which expose the pe core it was recommending a method of fabrication which might result in a an extremely
00:59:54 which might result in a an extremely dangerous system
01:00:36 [Music]
01:00:40 the produce [Music]
01:01:04 [Music]
01:01:14 well as i understand things i mean i don't really know and it's difficult to tell you in detail but what i think it is the aim of this document is to explain
01:01:26 the aim of this document is to explain to
01:01:26 to transformers uh how to use the product and transform it into something else and probably there was no reason to make any uh difference between
01:01:39 any uh difference between b and f r in this i don't think we would have made a difference between either
01:01:47 my question maybe i'll make it a simpler question
01:01:50 question can you explain why this document carries no warning uh that exposing pe creates the risk of a a dangerous
01:02:02 creates the risk of a a dangerous cladding system because it exposes the clouding panels
01:02:33 not no
01:02:36 i'm going to change to a different topic um
01:02:40 um and that is some of your evidence uh on the role
01:02:44 the role of our conic as opposed to the role of professionals can we go to your witness statement please mr schmidt
01:02:52 schmidt the position
01:03:00 professional page 29 in the english and 13 in the french
01:03:05 french and the french part of your statement is met 30 48
01:03:09 met 30 48 338 page 13. don't get dude
01:03:19 and i want to look at paragraph 90 and 92
01:03:22 92 with you yeah i've got
01:03:37 there we have the french on the screen on the right and the english will come on the left page 29 please the english version of your statement
01:04:00 uh and it
01:04:03 says paragraph 92 please sorry paragraph 90 you say uh we don't have the beginning of paragraph 19. i don't know if we can have the beginning of paragraph 90 please
01:04:15 beginning of paragraph 90 please i want to pick it up two-thirds of the way down the english with the words decision decisions in the english
01:04:28 and i think that that begins in the
01:04:38 french you could find that please i'm trying to
01:04:46 i think it's next page down in the french
01:04:49 french ah thank you sir yes
01:05:08 for use in construction or refurbishment project and for professionals such as architects engineers and building designers to make such decisions will be made based on a number of factors including other materials
01:05:18 materials design of cladding system and the project details generally to be used in the project and aap sas would generally not recommend the use of a product for a particular project in line with this so far as i'm aware
01:05:30 in line with this so far as i'm aware aap sas did not recommend the use of brain in bond 55 acn pe nor any alternative products for grenfell tower then if you go on to paragraph 92 please
01:05:41 then if you go on to paragraph 92 please which you can see at the bottom of the right hand side of the screen and i think we're going to have to scroll down in the english for the beginning of paragraph 92. thank you it says given aap sas's role
01:05:54 thank you it says given aap sas's role that is a manufacturer and supplier of unfabricated acn panels it would not have considered whether the use of renault bond 55 pe cassette panels as part of the facade of grenfell tower
01:06:04 tower would comply with relevant building regulations or associated guidance including the respect of fire safety it would not be possible for the company to consider such matters as it would not know exactly how its product was being was to be used
01:06:17 product was being was to be used including what other materials this product would be used in combination with
01:06:22 for the same reasons
01:06:25 neither could aap sas form a view as to whether the design of the side of the tower complied with the relevant building regulations and associated guidance so far as fire
01:06:36 and associated guidance so far as fire safety or
01:06:36 safety or indeed any other aspects were concerned aapses did not therefore rely on any guidance from third parties about such issues as they were not and would never be within its remit to consider aap sas is simply a supplier of one
01:06:50 aap sas is simply a supplier of one component product which may be used in the facade of a building
01:06:56 now this is your evidence mr schmidt to the inquiry how would any architect or designer or construction professional have all the information available to it
01:07:08 have all the information available to it to make a proper decision if they did not know
01:07:11 not know of the existence of test 5b
01:07:40 foreign
01:07:46 [Music]
01:07:54 a [Music]
01:08:06 well if we go back to the bba certificate it's exactly the same thing that is said there that any product has to be tested within its system
01:08:23 the vba certificate doesn't say does it don't use reynabon 55pe unless you have tested it
01:08:31 tested it in its system in which it was going to be used
01:08:35 be used that's it certificate
01:08:50 foreign
01:08:55 yes that's what i understand in 6.5 what was the point of the representation made in 6.1 and 6.2 and indeed 6.3 about the
01:09:07 and 6.2 and indeed 6.3 about the fire classifications uh in relation to reynold
01:09:13 representation
01:09:26 i don't know let me try the question a different way around mr schmitz said there's no confusion here and would you accept that even the most competent of uk professionals
01:09:37 professionals architects designers construction professionals looking at the bba certificate closely would be led to believe that reynaud 55
01:09:49 would be led to believe that reynaud 55 pe in cassette fix had achieved a euro class b
01:09:54 class b when it had not
01:09:58 like germany
01:10:06 [Music]
01:10:42 there is no system that is mentioned so no
01:10:54 i don't understand the answer i'm afraid
01:11:11 bba six series 47 which is the english version
01:11:15 version and the french version
01:11:22 uh we've had veritas yes thank you very much uh let's just look at paragraph 6.1 please
01:11:29 please and it says there the standard sample of the product with the grey green duragloss 5000 coating and test its reaction to fire reaction
01:11:40 and test its reaction to fire reaction to fire achieved the classification of bs2d naught in accordance with em13501.1
01:11:53 would you accept that even the most competent of uk professionals studying what i've just read out to you from this certificate mr schmidt would be led to believe that reynabon 55
01:12:04 would be led to believe that reynabon 55 standard pe and cassette fix had achieved a euro class b when it had not
01:12:13 escaped
01:12:20 um
01:13:26 well maybe i'm sorry maybe i don't really understand the question in its entirety but in this text here it says that
01:13:34 that a product as obtained in uh repetition
01:13:44 test the
01:13:49 [Music] what it says is that at the time of a fire test the product obtains such a result that's what it says essentially
01:14:01 result that's what it says essentially [Music]
01:14:12 a
01:14:19 [Music]
01:14:26 system
01:14:38 it says the product has to be tested with the whole of the system and probably to make sure of the fire validity of the whole thing
01:14:49 validity of the whole thing schmidt we're about to break do you understand the difference between reaction to fire and resistance to fire
01:15:12 no don't you passive no i'm not sure i do
01:15:18 so i'm going to try one more time before the break
01:15:24 the break can we please go back to paragraph 6.1 of the bba certificate
01:15:34 looking at paragraph 6.1 it says there that a standard sample of the product with the grey green duragloss
01:15:42 duragloss 5000 coating when tested for a reaction to fire achieved a classification of bs2 d-naught
01:15:51 d-naught in accordance with en 13501.1 2002. what would tell the competent uk building professional or architect
01:16:03 building professional or architect that only the rivet version had obtained a classification of bs2d naught
01:16:18 forgive me and the sound went a bit funny can you repeat what you just said what would tell the competent uk building professional or architect that only the rivet version
01:16:30 or architect that only the rivet version had obtained a classification of bs2d
01:16:46 brittany la version river classification bs2 d0
01:17:02 classification bs2 d0 [Music]
01:17:13 [Music] is
01:17:28 well
01:17:42 the text says and that's probably why i'm
01:17:45 i'm a bit confused and it's not very clear for me that uh during a given test fire test the product obtained a certain classification but it seems to
01:17:56 classification but it seems to um so presuppose also that the product wouldn't necessarily always obtain the same classification
01:18:13 same classification i'm going to ask for a break at this point i think it's 3 15 and uh it's probably time for a break yes i think you're right mr millet um we're going to have a short break now mr schmidt
01:18:26 [Music]
01:18:34 please remember not to speak to anyone about your evidence over the break
01:18:45 thank you
01:34:52 welcome back everyone we're ready to resume hearing from mr schmidt but first as always i think i better check that our interpreters are with us we can see and hear you
01:35:04 are with us we can see and hear you thank you
01:35:05 thank you thank you very much then uh mr schmidt are you there
01:35:09 you're just hilar yes i'm here good and
01:35:16 mr chairman thank you very much i want to turn to a different topic which is information available to salespeople mr president
01:35:35 now we heard from deborah french that she started at arconic in late 2007 just as the bba certificate was being finalized
01:35:46 was being finalized uh so that puts her in the chronology all right
01:35:54 fanduel
01:36:07 the best of your recollection after you began
01:36:11 began your role as managing director at merckxime in 2007 is it right that your sales forces in different countries were generally dealing with
01:36:22 dealing with fabricators and designers and architects yes
01:36:32 managing director
01:36:35 just covered
01:36:59 and what about fabricators
01:37:10 really yes um do you agree can i can i just interrupt the moment i'm sorry to do that mr millet you mr schmidt you look a little bit puzzled
01:37:22 mr schmidt you look a little bit puzzled about the use of the word februar is that not what you would normally
01:37:27 normally describe them as religious
01:37:32 foreign
01:37:52 no that word is okay but i thought i'd heard it in the previous sentence all right i'm sorry to interrupt
01:38:01 do you agree do you agree that arconic sales forces would need to have a
01:38:08 a grasp an understanding of the technical characteristics of the products they were selling exclusively
01:38:29 does arconic require their sales forces its sales forces i'm sorry uh to have experience in selling building products escape
01:38:40 in selling building products escape demand or they keep the vault
01:38:52 no not necessarily did our colleague require their sales forces to have some technical knowledge of their products
01:39:10 technique
01:39:15 yes a certain amount yes can we get claude witness statement at uh page 36 in the english please
01:39:38 foreign
01:39:44 and i want to look at
01:39:51 it comes up please
01:40:01 yeah in the english i'd like to show you paragraph 124 and in the french same paragraph
01:40:12 should be on page 10 of the french
01:40:20 pte 3048329 at page 10.
01:40:31 thank you perfect and i'll show you what he says there he says if you read in the french i'll read the english language
01:40:44 i have also been asked to confirm whether aap sas provides training to its staff and contractors in relation to the technical performance of its products including in respect for fire performance in relation to aap sas
01:40:57 performance in relation to aap sas employees and external sales teams this training occurs in different forms but includes
01:41:02 includes information on technical matters being provided to relevant employees as part of their quotes onboarding place quotes process this is usually at least a half day session and the content will depend upon the
01:41:13 and the content will depend upon the particular role of the employee for example
01:41:16 example if they were responsible for sales into france there may be a greater focus on french-related technical certifications now in relation to the training
01:41:25 training given by our comic described there by mr burleigh
01:41:29 burleigh were sales people trained on the certification that was relevant to their particular territory
01:41:44 representatives
01:42:15 [Music]
01:42:29 so there's no one specific on the side mexican who had the specific information with regard to the countries to which we delivered
01:42:36 delivered i think they probably had some information on the necessary tests or other
01:42:50 would that include training on the testing regimes relevant for example to the united kingdom or england and wales specifically
01:43:08 foreign
01:43:14 that's the second half of my answer
01:43:22 before
01:43:38 [Music]
01:43:53 so i'd like to repeat there's no one in max time who would have been able to explain the regulations to the country with regard to the countries that we've delivered to to a salesman or a sales team
01:44:10 uh well that's it's not a repetition of your
01:44:13 your previous answer it's it's rather different from it so let's just be clear
01:44:18 what
01:44:24 [Music] i just think that potentially something had been missed out in the interpretation let's try again when i see who i
01:44:39 salesforce uh so mr southgate french and then mr meakins get training on the testing regimes which applied in the united kingdom and specifically
01:44:51 in the united kingdom and specifically england and wales for example
01:44:56 southgate madame francis uh
01:45:00 information
01:45:18 [Music]
01:45:47 [Music]
01:45:52 so one would need to check when someone is taken on from outside an external person is taken on they would come here to the site they'd come here for one week or two weeks and they would visit the factory
01:46:18 [Music]
01:46:21 and so therefore they'd meet the technical teams not only necessarily claude vales technical teams they'd also meet people responsible for paints and laboratories
01:46:37 in [Music]
01:46:50 and in principle there's a kind of follow-up
01:46:53 follow-up sheet or document for each employee after they've been taken on don
01:47:05 so just to answer your question more precisely
01:47:09 precisely it's potentially a good idea to look at those documents have you looked at those documents
01:47:17 no no no no
01:47:34 uh
01:47:38 because you put me on the path or you ask me the question did um did these documents you're referring to are these training records for sales personnel
01:48:00 it's a document that exists for each employee that's taken on a question again are they training records for each member of the sales force
01:48:12 for the formation of personnel
01:48:30 yes there's a heading then the time that's was taken and also the person who gave the training
01:48:43 it's a document that hr would have human resources
01:48:49 and to the best of your knowledge today's documents reflect technical training
01:48:53 training on the products that each member of the sales force was selling in his particular territory eda
01:49:13 [Music]
01:49:26 foreign [Music]
01:49:38 there's probably a document of the kind but i don't know i don't have in mind precisely what appears in each document no um we have no such documents mr schmidt
01:49:49 um we have no such documents mr schmidt are you able to explain why these documents were not provided by our connect to the inquiry
01:50:08 [Music] seals exist is individual no i have no idea and if they exist they should be available would you be prepared to provide them
01:50:22 foreign yes of course okay well i will have to take that up with
01:50:29 with our comics lawyers
01:50:35 is it right that sales peak people working around the world in the territories in which our connex sold its products
01:50:41 products um would attend sales meetings uh once or perhaps twice a year at merck's time is
01:51:03 do you remember was it obligatory do they have to come yes
01:51:17 we yes
01:51:26 [Music] generally everybody came maybe if there will be one or two people missing but yes and do you remember whether there was usually an update from the technical sales support
01:51:37 update from the technical sales support team
01:51:39 team yes yes
01:51:56 [Music]
01:52:09 yes i believe that at each sales meeting there was a presentation from the uh support from the team that supported the sails
01:52:26 [Music] it was part of a a a normal schedule and would um would iconic management expect these
01:52:39 expect these sales people to listen to the update
01:53:08 so do we take it that your sales force couldn't ignore information and decide for themselves what
01:53:15 what was relevant to them or and what was irrelevant to them
01:53:32 yes now let's go to your second witness statement
01:53:38 please at page 15 and in the french at page 20 in both cases paragraph 48 examine the position
01:53:52 paragraph
01:54:06 and
01:54:20 just you can see the english version on the left hand side of the screen paragraph 48
01:54:29 french page 20.
01:54:34 frances
01:54:48 francaise
01:55:03 yes thank you now you have the whole of paragraph 48 there in the french on the screen
01:55:08 screen the english it it skips over the page i'm going to read the english well mr schmidt please read the french to yourself
01:55:20 in relation to awareness within aap sas the results of fire performance testing and
01:55:25 and certification a number of people within aap sas would have been aware including the sales team and the technical sales support team members of the sales team would be aware of results as they're made available to
01:55:36 of results as they're made available to them through an online system referred to as the page toolbox quotes on quotes claude verley and the technical sales support team would
01:55:45 would upload to the toolbox a new or updated classification report or certification and would notify the sales team via email of any such changes such emails were sent to two mail
01:55:56 such emails were sent to two mail distribution lists raf leased commercial intel antel which includes all members of the sales and marketing department that are based at nurxheim including those working in internal
01:56:08 including those working in internal sales outside sales and technical support and raf leased commercial extern which includes all members of sales and marketing department that are based outside of
01:56:19 outside of and either employed by aap sas or rx agents including for example deborah french and vince meakins the complete decision should be noted that in my experience the technical research and development team may have a
01:56:32 research and development team may have a jet may have a general awareness of tests being carried out in the context of any product modifications and to the extent that technical information is required by the technical sales support team as part of the testing it arranges
01:56:43 team as part of the testing it arranges i would also note that that information may have been presented to management on specific occasions
01:56:48 occasions for example in relation to investment decisions in respect of fr or a2 investment projects now we've heard some evidence about the
01:56:59 now we've heard some evidence about the toolbox
01:57:00 toolbox from deborah french and vince meakins
01:57:14 told us that there was an early version of the toolbox and one that came much later in things 2018 and that he says that was the one the later one
01:57:25 the one the later one was the toolbox that sales people could access directly
01:57:36 um
01:57:43 [Music]
01:57:48 uh my question is is it sorry my question is is it right that there were two versions at least two versions of the toolbox
01:58:09 [Music]
01:58:18 but if that's what vince says and i imagine that then he's probably right let's see if i can uh see if you can help us further when you refer to the online system
01:58:30 refer to the online system referred to as the toolbox do you remember when
01:58:46 no was there a time when the original toolbox system fell out of use and wasn't used at all
01:58:57 the system originally
01:59:11 do you remember when the version of the toolbox
01:59:15 toolbox that members of the sales forces could access
01:59:18 access was established
01:59:42 um [Music]
01:59:50 [Music]
02:00:08 well no not exactly but in theory uh regarding that tool it was on a server which was a sort of commercial file and all the employees within
02:00:19 within the commercial team could have access to it
02:00:24 did you ever visit the toolbox it was a visit
02:00:27 visit said what is a toolbox um no no
02:00:34 did you ever have any uh anything to do with establishing the toolbox or deciding how it would work what documents would go in it or who had access to it
02:00:46 go in it or who had access to it excuse me
02:00:51 the decision
02:01:13 no and i don't know really at what time it was set up and which commercial director was in charge then
02:01:22 then what is the source of the statements that you make in your statement about the toolbox that i've read to you
02:01:34 declarations
02:01:44 [Music]
02:01:48 um
02:01:52 [Music]
02:02:01 in fact it's when we started searching for documents doing research after greenfell
02:02:06 greenfell that's when i learned that that two books existed
02:02:18 books existed and at the time of grenfell i didn't know
02:02:21 know uh who told you about the toolbox it gives the
02:02:30 information
02:03:01 i'm not certain but it might well be claude valley so the statements that you've made in your witness statement about the toolbox are not statements
02:03:12 about the toolbox are not statements from your own knowledge and you aren't able to tell me exactly where you got that information from is that correct declaration
02:03:26 the declaration
02:03:41 that is married i mean there's second-hand information if you like are you able to tell us from your own knowledge what kinds of documents
02:03:52 knowledge what kinds of documents would normally be in the toolbox in the period 2012 to 2016.
02:04:06 normal monsters
02:04:23 [Music]
02:04:35 [Music] foreign
02:04:40 well between the period 2012 2016 i couldn't
02:04:44 couldn't necessarily give you a very detailed list
02:04:48 list but as to the type of documents i think you would find all the marketing documents and updated and also
02:04:54 and also the fire test would be there
02:05:00 is there a document or database which would identify on any particular given date what documents could be found historically in the toolbox
02:05:18 documents
02:05:27 [Music]
02:05:31 i don't know you would have to ask the i.t
02:05:35 i.t specialist
02:05:40 the best of your own knowledge and if you don't know then tell me was a sales person such as debbie french able to access the toolbox and explore it for themselves
02:05:51 it for themselves in the period 2012 to 2016.
02:06:15 no no
02:06:23 do you know who was responsible for keeping the toolbox up-to-date
02:06:42 i think there was the technical team and also the marketing team
02:06:54 is it your understanding and again if you if you don't know from your own knowledge please tell me but is it your understanding that each time a new classification or certification uh or test
02:07:08 or certification uh or test was uploaded to the toolbox the technical sales support team would email both of the group lists raf at least external and raf at least
02:07:24 [Music]
02:07:55 [Music]
02:08:06 deposition
02:08:09 [Music]
02:08:20 well i saw some of these emails in the various
02:08:24 various lists of documents that went along with the information connected to the various statements and it seems that these updating were automatic
02:08:36 these updating were automatic is that your interpretation of the evidence you've seen or is it your evidence of the facts at the time
02:09:02 [Music]
02:09:13 i mean we're not talking about facts i mean i didn't check myself whether it's been done
02:09:20 let's see what mr averle says can we please have his witness statement please english page 34 french page seven uh
02:09:44 long
02:10:07 and we'll leave paragraph 116 in the french version which
02:10:16 thank you now i want to just show you i don't want to show you the whole paragraph just one part of it
02:10:26 and he says that it's four lines down in the english when a new or updated classification report uh the french i think it's five six lines down lost
02:10:40 um
02:10:49 when a new or updated classification report or certification is obtained by myself or others within my team it would be added to the toolbox by that team and
02:10:58 team and sometimes an email would be sent to the sales and marketing department email distribution list referred to as raf lease downtown and raf
02:11:07 raf the least extern confirming that changes have been made to the toolbox all that new classification reports had been obtained now i want to know about the word sometimes
02:11:21 the problem second only said
02:11:35 what was the true position mr schmidt would emails always be sent or only generally but sometimes not
02:11:46 or only generally but sometimes not repositioned
02:11:50 systematically swap
02:12:02 [Music]
02:12:18 i mean i've got no specific answer but then when you read that word which in french means generally it means
02:12:25 means most of the time but there may be cases when it doesn't happen that's how i understand it
02:12:32 uh and who would decide when something should be sent in accordance with the general policy and when something shouldn't shows
02:12:46 up
02:12:58 did you yourself personally receive emails
02:13:03 as part of the raf leased commercial antenna or raf leased commercial extern yes
02:13:22 how would the recipients of emails within those lists know that any addition to the toolbox new certification new test data was relevant to them
02:13:42 um
02:13:56 i would imagine that in the mail it was described in more detail that's you're imagining it that's your inference or speculation
02:14:09 yes you know
02:14:17 no that's a supposition would you have expected deborah french as a salesperson working in england and wales to have appreciated that the european classification
02:14:28 that the european classification updates were relevant to her work
02:14:38 french
02:14:52 be
02:15:13 [Music]
02:15:20 european [Music]
02:15:29 it's difficult to answer because i don't know whether the regulation in england relied on european tests or whether the english regulation and its own
02:15:40 the english regulation and its own regime of tests
02:15:44 um well if can we agree on this mr schmidt that if the european classification regime was irrelevant in
02:15:55 classification regime was irrelevant in the united kingdom the bba certificate would not have referred to it
02:16:01 mr schmidt that court
02:16:22 [Music]
02:16:39 well no i don't think so because after the file
02:16:43 the file i checked various products and bbs certificates from competitors and in some of them there was absolutely no reference to the european legislation
02:16:58 or to the european tests [Music]
02:17:02 [Music] the european tests were not mentioned in their certificates but would you agree mr schmidt that where the european class
02:17:15 where the european class b had been obtained as it had with it at the time and that that european classification was being used as the basis of a statement that the product could be regarded as
02:17:27 that the product could be regarded as having class naught national standard the european classification was highly relevant
02:17:40 regulations
02:18:09 i
02:18:27 yes i i do understand at least
02:18:34 do you agree every
02:18:43 [Music]
02:19:07 yes i mean i did see the bba certificate which does mention the european certification and then in paragraph 6 2 or 6 3 i don't remember it's uh deducted
02:19:20 i don't remember it's uh deducted concluded that it has a class 0. thank you and so my question uh coming back to it is given assuming
02:19:33 given assuming assume with me for the moment that the european
02:19:37 european classification regime applies in the united kingdom in parallel if you like with the national classification would you have expected deborah french to have appreciated that any update in
02:19:50 to have appreciated that any update in relation to european classifications of her product relibon 55 was relevant to her job
02:20:00 presumably
02:20:29 yes thank you
02:20:35 deborah french described arconic's approach
02:20:38 approach to uh european classifications and updates to such classifications in respect of products like renavon 55 p e
02:20:50 products like renavon 55 p e as very secret she her expression was that
02:20:55 that arconic was very secret over stuff like that
02:21:04 classification classification for example
02:21:24 to be fair to you i'm quoting from the transcript of a meeting she had after the fire in 2017.
02:21:32 2017. that met 3040858 and page 2 around the middle of the page that's for the transcript perhaps it should be translated so you can understand what you've said
02:21:52 about
02:22:06 uh as miss deborah french describes it namely but it was very secretive
02:22:20 french city
02:22:25 and didn't always tell its sales teams about
02:22:28 about the test results yes information resolution
02:22:42 [Music]
02:23:19 [Music]
02:23:30 monkey
02:23:36 [Music]
02:23:51 [Music]
02:24:05 uh yes i mean i can't say in detail because i don't know but this is more or less how i see things i mean when claude verli realized that the fire tests
02:24:16 tests uh that were carried out in 2011 were not at the expected level the results were not what we were expecting uh there were communication that were made in later years
02:24:28 made in later years and uh also so in saw in one document that there is a mail that was sent
02:24:35 sent in 2014 to taylor maxford cesaro taylor maxwell right to somebody called taylor maxford and i'm not sure exactly in which
02:24:46 and i'm not sure exactly in which document it was but it's information about that sort of thing
02:24:52 right uh do you agree that our comic's approach
02:24:56 approach was secretive in the way this french described
02:25:03 it
02:25:07 madam french no let me uh show you the transcript of her evidence about this discussion she had with uh
02:25:19 about this discussion she had with uh with mr simmons it was in june uh 2017 this is day 89 of the transcript page 37 line 20.
02:25:36 simmons set uh if we could please show the witness the transcript for day 39 at page 37
02:25:50 deposition
02:25:58 can we get line 20 and i'm going to read the question and then madame translator reviewer translate the question back into french uh and i will or into french and i'll
02:26:09 uh and i will or into french and i'll get the answer and we'll do the same uh
02:26:15 uh no it's page 80 sorry day 89 that's that's day 39 89 page 37 please
02:26:31 yes thank you can we look at line 20.
02:26:35 and i quote at line 20 they are very secret over stuff like that
02:26:43 that do i understand correctly that our conic did not share information with you about for example testing programs
02:27:00 for
02:27:07 not until it was necessary for it to be published
02:27:18 right when you say not until it was necessary to be over the page published what would dictate whether it was necessary to be published
02:27:46 question am i right in thinking that our colleague did not share information with you about the fire performance of renault bond android passes
02:28:07 they would have shared with me various the certificates once anything has been testing has been done and was certificates need to be published that's when they would send them to us
02:28:21 certainly
02:28:34 just pausing there i'm going to ask you the question mr schmidt is miss french correct uh that arconic uh would only uh send uh updated certificates to the sales force
02:28:47 updated certificates to the sales force sales forces uh once these certificates needed to be published but not before that don't
02:29:19 and i couldn't answer your question right
02:29:22 right uh what i was going to show you just to complete this the next question question is 11 what was it that you were referring to here in this conversation when you said
02:29:33 here in this conversation when you said they are very secret over stuff like that
02:29:35 that what's that
02:29:48 stuff
02:29:54 i think it was referring to the changing core they wouldn't want the market to know that they were looking at a different
02:29:59 different bringing up a new product or a different court or a new development until they were ready to do it
02:30:38 [Music] let's link to all the fr products uh or
02:30:50 let's link to all the fr products uh or um fr coils cores sorry that we carried out over the years uh japan's [Music]
02:31:08 [Music]
02:31:20 and for some of them as long as the product hadn't passed the uh fire test nor the qualification test then
02:31:27 then no information was given to the sales force
02:31:32 if a new or updated fire test or fire classification for a product had been received by our comic would you expect
02:31:44 received by our comic would you expect the sales force in the relevant territory
02:31:47 territory for that product to be told straight away about that new test or new classification mercy service
02:32:08 to
02:32:14 yes
02:32:21 does it follow that if there was no certificate published such as for test 5b but test 5b was just simply
02:32:30 simply treated as a rogue any salesperson would have no means of finding out
02:32:50 um
02:33:02 probably in 2005 yes i don't think the the uh sales team was organized to that extent what about in the years between 2007 and 2017
02:33:19 yeah you started as managing director and the year of the fire
02:33:24 commanding director saudi
02:33:36 [Music]
02:33:46 foreign
02:33:51 well i think once again from 2013 2014 that information circulated and was available for the teams
02:33:59 teams um one more question before we asked the gentleman to break have you seen any material
02:34:06 at all either at the time or in your preparation to give evidence today which suggests that any member of the uk sales team was told of the existence
02:34:15 existence of test 5b
02:34:28 um
02:34:48 no i don't have the information to say so
02:34:53 mr chairman that's the convenient moment well i think that would be a good point to stop we've overrun a little bit mr schmidt i'm sorry about that um but we'll break now
02:35:11 and we'll resume please at 10 o'clock uk time tomorrow morning
02:35:17 uh uh please don't talk to anyone about your evidence what over the break
02:35:24 is
02:35:28 and we'll look forward to seeing you tomorrow
02:35:33 good night
02:35:37 have a good
02:38:20 you