Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Arconic Evidence - Wednesday 17th February 2021 (1/2)
00:00:03 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing as usual i'm here with my fellow panel members miss istafan and mr ackball good morning
00:00:15 istafan and mr ackball good morning good morning everyone uh today we're going to continue hearing evidence from mr
00:00:22 mr schmidt the president of arconic uh the first thing i need to do is to ensure that our interpreters are online so to speak and can hear and see everything
00:00:34 and can hear and see everything necessary so we are both online and we can both see and hear you thank you very much indeed um
00:00:41 um so the next thing we do is to check that mr schmidt is there and that he's able to see me and hear me clearly mr schmidt are you there
00:00:55 yes and good morning to everyone thank you and good morning to you now we're again we'll see we're going to um resume your evidence in just a moment
00:01:07 um resume your evidence in just a moment but um i think we better go through the usual
00:01:12 usual procedure so i'm going to ask you to begin by confirming that you are alone in the room from which you're giving
00:01:24 evidence
00:01:29 i can confirm that uh can you confirm that you have no documents or other materials
00:01:34 materials in the room with you
00:01:38 more
00:01:44 thank you and can you confirm please that your mobile phone is in another room and that you have no other electronic device with you which is capable of receiving messages
00:02:06 i can confirm that good thank you very much well the procedure will be the same as
00:02:11 as it was yesterday
00:02:16 and uh we shall have a break during the morning
00:02:19 morning at around about 11 15.
00:02:26 um but if you feel that you need a break at any other time please indicate that number two
00:02:39 thank you is there anything you'd like to raise or to ask me before we carry on avon condemn
00:02:48 monday [Music]
00:02:52 [Music] no not at all thank you well in that case i'll invite mr millet to continue his questioning
00:03:01 yes just a minute good morning mr chairman good morning members of the panel
00:03:07 panel and good morning mr schmidt i would like to begin this morning by asking you about one further
00:03:20 morning by asking you about one further european
00:03:21 european standard fire test in 2006
00:03:30 protection
00:03:34 this is the 2006 renault bond fr rivet test
00:03:44 review can we please go to bba four zeros eight two eight eight
00:03:56 and in the french that is arc underscore t4017
00:04:10 if we can have both of those up thank you very much
00:04:16 uh you will see the english on the left and the french on the right this
00:04:24 this is uh the reaction to fire classification report number ra060372 under european standard naf en 13501
00:04:36 under european standard naf en 13501 part1 classification reactions
00:04:47 and if you look at that first page there you can see that the commercial brand tested was reynabond fr s
00:05:06 the report was valid for five years from that date
00:05:10 that date is it uh
00:05:14 can we go to play page two please in both versions
00:05:21 you can see that under product description
00:05:28 composite panel consisting of two pre-coated aluminium sheets thermally bonded on either side of a polyethylene core
00:05:36 core tested system riveted on metal substructure and and then you go on to see um that it says that the finishing coat was duragloss 5000
00:05:47 finishing coat was duragloss 5000 35 microns and the color was gold colored
00:05:51 colored you see that description
00:05:57 if you go to page 4 please in both versions page 4.
00:06:04 look at the bottom of the page you'll see two signatures of the officials at the cstb
00:06:14 [Music] with the date above it october the 19th 2006
00:06:24 and uh if you go a little bit higher up the page on each version
00:06:31 if the operator could just scroll upwards we can see the classifications there under paragraph 4.2 in the box fire behavior b smoke production s1 flaming droplets or
00:06:44 smoke production s1 flaming droplets or debris
00:06:45 debris d naught
00:06:59 classification b
00:07:10 then under section 4.3 field of application it says this classification is valid for the following product parameters there they're set out and then
00:07:22 there they're set out and then underneath that this classification is valid for the following end use conditions and then please see it says riveted system on metal substructure you see that don't forget
00:07:34 substructure you see that don't forget applications
00:07:41 if you guys are valid conditions
00:07:51 yes with a minimum air gap of 20 millimeters
00:08:07 did you see this document at the time or once you became managing director in 2007
00:08:24 no i don't think so have you ever seen it before
00:08:28 it before today when i'm showing it
00:08:38 i believe i never saw it before uh so do we take it that when you were preparing
00:08:45 preparing your witness statement you were not showing this test report
00:08:58 no i don't think so no now as far as we the inquiry has been able to tell from the records arconic did not do another test
00:09:12 arconic did not do another test on pe core but instead uh chose to perform a test on fr core and this is the report my question is
00:09:23 is do you know why arconic did not do another test on pe corps but only
00:09:34 public
00:10:07 [Music]
00:10:13 the question was there a direct question in this
00:10:17 in this it was i'll put it do you know why arconic did not do another test on pe core but only on fr core
00:10:26 core well directly exclusively
00:10:39 this test as you can see was rivet fix do you know whether arconic performed a test
00:10:58 set no no you could see that this test was set up with an air gap of 20 millimeters we saw yesterday that the air gap in test 5a
00:11:11 yesterday that the air gap in test 5a for pe core was 50 millimeters do you know why
00:11:15 know why there was a difference
00:11:54 [Music]
00:12:00 i mean what i've just seen on this document you've just showed me is that the gap the air gap is a minimum of 20 millimeters so i don't know with the gap with effectively 20 millimeters or
00:12:14 gap with effectively 20 millimeters or something else
00:12:27 and if they had decided to stick to an air gap of 20 millimeters i don't know at all why
00:12:38 at all why and i'm going to turn to a different topic
00:12:42 that is the decision to obtain a bba certificate for the uk market
00:12:50 certificate
00:13:03 can we start by looking at mr verlet's statement please english met3053190 page 22 paragraph 72 in the french met 3 0's 48342 page 28
00:13:18 in the french met 3 0's 48342 page 28 paragraph 72 again
00:13:24 sufficiently long
00:13:41 and uh i want just to put to you show you the first uh sentence of that paragraph
00:13:56 read that in the french i'll read it out in the english he says many of the certifications like the bba certificate are largely obtained for marketing purposes
00:14:07 purposes and hence i am reliant on colleagues in the overseas sales teams to decide which if any certifications they wish to be obtained in order
00:14:24 the best of your understanding uh was that
00:14:27 that the purpose of the bba certificates
00:14:42 really yes is it right that a sales person
00:14:49 person uh in a region a particular region would usually
00:14:52 usually propose that arconic should get specific certifications
00:15:11 and is the reason for that that the specific certifications would help that salesperson sell the product in that particular region
00:15:24 specifically
00:15:31 yes does that mean that in the uk archonic was dependent upon
00:15:46 or being told what certifications were necessary
00:15:49 necessary to assist sales in the uk yesterday
00:15:59 yes i think so and is it right that before
00:16:03 before the end of 2007 that was colin southgate and then after that uh deborah french and then after her vince meekens
00:16:17 colleen southgate and suicide deborah french
00:16:20 french street vince meekins 55. renault bond second sec
00:16:29 yes
00:16:33 now it's right is it not and if you don't know tell me that arconic had a bba certificate for reynold lux in about 1987. uh
00:16:48 japanese
00:17:02 i'm sorry sir did you say 87 or 97 87.
00:17:12 yes uh and in your role as uh involved in the production of reynoldux in the late 1990s you were aware of
00:17:23 1990s you were aware of the existence and role of the bba yes the production of renault
00:17:45 can we take it that you were broadly aware
00:17:49 aware of what a bba certificate was
00:17:54 represented
00:17:59 yes and you were broadly aware of why our comic might want a bba certificate for one of its products
00:18:19 and am i right in thinking that you thought
00:18:22 thought that the bba when preparing their certificate would be painstaking and thorough es
00:18:40 uh
00:18:48 yes and that you thought the bba would be diligent in assessing our conics products for certification
00:19:08 certifications three yes now i want to ask you against that background about our conic's vba application uh in august 2006
00:19:22 vba application uh in august 2006 so this is a year before you became managing director at merck's height
00:19:32 applications
00:19:36 is
00:19:44 my first question is a general one were you involved at all at the time august 2006 in our college decision to submit a a an application form to the bba
00:20:00 a a an application form to the bba premier league
00:20:04 only
00:20:18 know
00:20:22 [Music]
00:20:38 [Music]
00:20:46 well as i said yesterday in 2005 2006 i was busy
00:20:52 was busy preparing an mba so i used to spend a lot of time outside the company but when i was there in parallel i was responsible for the launch of a new plant in china
00:21:04 for the launch of a new plant in china i understand
00:21:08 well i'm going to show you a document and if you can't help me with it then we can take it quickly can you please go to the application
00:21:20 can you please go to the application form which claude verlet has exhibited uh and i just want to start with met3053158 underscore p13 page one six seven
00:21:33 underscore p13 page one six seven english version
00:21:42 of
00:21:56 page one
00:22:07 now thank you now this is the cover page of the application is this a document that you have ever seen before do you think
00:22:24 demand
00:22:33 i believe i saw it on monday when you put the documents online
00:22:44 right uh now i'm going to ask you one or two questions about it in some detail and see if you can help us with it can we please go to page 169 in the english
00:22:54 english page four uh in the french
00:23:06 questions i'm afraid i think it should be page three in the french that's it yes thank you
00:23:12 you now um uh it says here under section one you can see it product name reynabon 55. do you see that section
00:23:28 yes description of proposed use rayner bond is used in architecture for ventilated facades infill for curtain walls cladding roof construction and rims
00:23:40 construction and rims description
00:23:43 underneath that it says paragraph 1.3 description of claim performance level fire classification bs 476 part six fire propagation index
00:23:54 bs 476 part six fire propagation index equals one point naught bs four seven six part seven class one uh warrington fire research reports one three two
00:24:03 three two three one six and one three two three one seven
00:24:12 those reports i think i showed you yesterday
00:24:16 yesterday were the ones dated the 12th of september 2003 were for reyno bond 55 fr do you remember montreal
00:24:34 yes i just said everybody can check the references to those are bba 6053 and bba 6050
00:24:45 6053 and bba 6050 and for those in the french just in case it's necessary to check them uh arc underscore t4016 and arc underscore t4015
00:24:58 references
00:25:12 can we go to page 171 in the english and page five
00:25:15 page five in the french
00:25:23 foreign section 2.1 it says please describe your product and product range then says please follow in the french radio bond is a composite panel made out
00:25:35 radio bond is a composite panel made out of two aluminium sheets thickness half a millimeter or point five millimeters pre-coated and thermally bonded to each side of a polyethylene core please see attached literature and drawings to this description
00:25:48 drawings to this description as you can see there are different thicknesses three four and six millimeters and two different cores p e f r and fire retardant
00:25:57 retardant and let's look at page 173 then in the english
00:26:02 paragraphy
00:26:08 section
00:26:17 and in the penultimate box you can see under the list there is a test fire propagation and there are the same warrington fire research tests uh one two three one three two three one
00:26:29 uh one two three one three two three one six and one three two three one seven that are referred to before
00:26:35 they don't love
00:26:58 the last signature page or the signature page uh claude verlais signs it on behalf of
00:27:04 behalf of aap
00:27:33 that was filled in in 2004 by mr verde uh but was then halted he said for commercial reasons that he's explained that in his witness statement so that explains the date
00:27:44 explains the date uh my question
00:27:54 [Music]
00:28:13 my questions for you are i've shown you the application form in part um on what i've shown you do you accept that it's made very clearly on the basis that rayner bond can have
00:28:25 the basis that rayner bond can have either a pe core or an fr core
00:28:49 yes but as we've seen do you accept just on this document that the fire performance claimed in this application is only
00:29:10 foreign
00:29:24 are you able to explain why this application form does not spell out clearly
00:29:29 clearly to the bba the fact that the fire performance identified is only for fr core
00:29:38 quality
00:29:52 no do you agree with me that this application form contained or identified no class naught test or ppe core renault 55
00:30:05 or ppe core renault 55 at all
00:30:25 [Music]
00:30:34 um
00:30:39 if the references uh correspond to the test that you showed me uh yesterday then that's that's what i can note
00:30:49 so do you agree with me that at least at this stage august 2006 the bba was given no evidence that reynabon 55
00:31:01 reynabon 55 pe corps been subjected to and passed a a british standard test leading to a class naught classification
00:31:16 label
00:31:30 0.
00:31:36 [Music] but we were talking about a document of 2004.
00:31:42 2004. well this document was re-re-compiled in 2006. no documentation
00:32:02 and was it identical to this one well i'm asking you i think you're not familiar with it i'm putting to you what this document shows and i'm just inviting you to agree i'll try
00:32:25 [Music] m
00:32:33 this document
00:32:37 made no reference and provided no evidence that reynabon 55 pe core had been subjected to and passed a british standard test
00:32:51 a british standard test leading to a class naught's classification
00:33:36 yes but i again don't understand because there was a document that was done in 2004 and then another document was uh uh drawn up in 2006. uh and i think you can't help us with
00:33:47 uh and i think you can't help us with any of that can you please open foreign
00:33:56 for sure i wasn't involved at all so that would be mr vale who would have to answer those questions
00:34:08 probably let's then look on a little bit later in 2006 and look into mr verde's witness statement
00:34:19 statement uh english version net3053190 page four to six paragraph one six six french version met three zeros four eight three two nine page twenty one
00:34:30 eight three two nine page twenty one paragraph one one six
00:34:46 my
00:34:56 now
00:35:00 this yes thank you very much if we could have a french there as well at the bottom of page 21 thank you very much
00:35:07 much um he refers at paragraph 166 to a meeting in november 2006. uh and he sets out his reasons here
00:35:19 uh and he sets out his reasons here about
00:35:19 about why our comic wanted the product and not the system certified by the bba and uh this meeting uh i'm assuming is one
00:35:30 uh this meeting uh i'm assuming is one that you were not at uh
00:35:57 [Music] then for sure i wasn't uh i i didn't attend it
00:36:02 attend it and i'm just going to ask you a general point about what he says about it um he says at the second of november 2006 meeting a discussion also took place regarding the scope of the bba
00:36:13 place regarding the scope of the bba certificate for reyno bond aap sas his view was that the material i.e the reynabond product should only should be validated rather than the system into which the product
00:36:24 than the system into which the product would be integrated this was the only basis on which aap sas could work as it would not know in which type of system its product would be used what materials it would be used with etc
00:37:20 yes i just wanted him to follow the french sorry i apologize
00:37:30 okay uh just what i'm going to do is show you the english and read out the english and he can follow him now my questions having shown you this
00:37:40 this paragraph of mr verle's witness statement mr schmidt uh are these first do you agree that our colleague knew that reynabond 55 could only be used if fabricated
00:38:16 b
00:38:39 yes and therefore do you agree that arconic knew that customers would buy reynabon55 to fix either in rivet form
00:38:50 reynabon55 to fix either in rivet form or in cassette form
00:38:58 from yes now
00:39:04 yes now we saw yesterday test 5b on the cassette form
00:39:07 form of rendezvous 55 pe variant
00:39:13 do you know why our conic thought it was appropriate for the bba to certify the product
00:39:25 to certify the product when you knew or iconic knew that in one of the two forms which it would be fabricated and used namely cassette it had performed
00:39:37 namely cassette it had performed so disastrously that it could not be classified under
00:40:08 european
00:40:21 and the basic question is did i do i know why no
00:40:31 do you accept that any certificate that allowed the reader to believe that the product performed the same in a fire whether it was rivet fix
00:40:43 was rivet fix or cassette fix
00:40:47 would be misleading who was accepted because
00:41:18 only
00:41:22 we yes thank you do you agree that mr verlais explanation
00:41:34 verlais explanation for asking the bba to certify the material
00:41:42 namely that arconic would not know into which type of system its product would be
00:42:14 a
00:42:28 the
00:43:05 no let's say well i imagine at the time in 2006 the need for the english market was to have a class zero product and that was sufficient uh information to be able to use it on a facade
00:43:24 by also taking into consideration the other variants on the facade
00:43:33 do you agree that not knowing what overall system the panels would be used for does not excuse concealing
00:43:46 does not excuse concealing the fire differences the differences in fire performance as between rivet and cassette
00:44:16 [Music]
00:44:30 no i don't accept that i can't really ask that question but i don't think there was a desire to hide anything whatsoever
00:44:44 [Music]
00:44:49 and once again i wasn't involved so i have difficulty in answering to that answering that type of question
00:44:56 mr schmidt in your last answer you said you don't think there was a desire to hide anything whatsoever if that is so please explain to me why the bba certificate
00:45:08 the bba certificate does not draw a distinction in fire performance between rivet and cassette mr smith
00:45:31 no no
00:45:36 no what no you won't explain or no you can't explain
00:45:42 by speaking no i can't can i look now into march 2007 and again to be fair to you this is
00:45:53 to be fair to you this is a number of months before you took over as managing director at merkstein
00:46:11 and i want to look at the bba contract the contract between the bba and our tonic
00:46:22 can we please have in the english version bba zero four two 408042 and in the french arc underscore t four zeros zero four
00:46:51 and we have both on the screen the english on the left the french on the right and
00:46:56 right and again can i ask you mr schmidt is this a document
00:47:01 document that you saw at the time maybe march 2007
00:47:14 no i don't believe so have you ever seen this document before today
00:47:42 but in fact i think that the previous document which was dated 2004 relating to bba i think that actually
00:47:49 actually that document i had never seen so do we take it that you hadn't seen either that document or this document the certificate contract when you did
00:48:00 the certificate contract when you did your witness statement
00:48:04 position
00:48:13 did you not want when you were doing your witness statement did you not want to know what the formal legal relationship was between arconic and the bb-8
00:48:32 foreign
00:48:40 [Music]
00:48:46 a
00:48:56 no when i prepared my statement i answered specific questions and i gathered together the documents that relate to those questions
00:49:07 but you didn't trouble yourself to ask yourself even let alone your lawyers what the
00:49:14 what the precise legal relationship was between arconic and the bba is that right
00:49:38 now this is in the bba technical file as forming part of the inquiries documentation and the disclosure do you know whether anybody at board
00:49:51 do you know whether anybody at board level
00:49:52 level in our comic authorized the entry into this contract
00:50:25 when you're talking about board level do you mean alcoa's um board right at the top well um the uh the board or
00:50:36 the uh the board or directorial level um at aap sas
00:50:52 [Music]
00:51:06 uh i think i can see in fact the initials of cr claude ritter
00:51:14 general
00:51:18 who was the assistant managing director at the time
00:51:26 okay claude ritter claude rita sister
00:51:34 eric
00:51:41 and he was assistant managing director at the time who was he assisting
00:51:48 claude
00:52:16 yes and was claude richey your predecessor in the role of managing director yes of course managing director
00:52:29 yes of course managing director really yes when you took over your role as managing director from club richer in august 2007 do you remember whether he
00:52:40 whether he gave you any formal or even informal
00:52:44 handover
00:53:14 it lasted approximately one week during july
00:53:19 [Music]
00:53:25 because i was involved in the project in china until the end of june
00:53:52 i remember that month of june very clearly because i presented the project to the alco management
00:54:02 and the project was aborted so that's why i remember it clearly
00:54:09 right um when you had this week of discussions did uh mr brichet richey uh
00:54:20 brichet richey uh introduce you to the products that were being manufactured at and sold from merck's height
00:54:36 fabricated
00:54:40 no no so to be clear he never gave you any
00:54:44 any introduction to reinaborn 55.
00:54:50 swag
00:54:59 [Music]
00:55:04 the
00:55:09 [Music] since the beginning of the production so i didn't think it was necessary did mr brichay give you a package of
00:55:22 did mr brichay give you a package of up-to-date documents relating to reign of 1555.
00:55:32 consent
00:55:55 i don't believe so i don't think so did mr
00:56:00 mr tell you that our colleague had been talking
00:56:04 talking to the bba about obtaining a bba certification lorena bond 55.
00:56:14 so
00:56:30 [Music] no i think that they considered that as
00:56:41 no i think that they considered that as being part of the current affairs and normal current developments did mr leave you behind a set of files or documents or uh whether electronic or in paper
00:56:55 or uh whether electronic or in paper form
00:56:55 form so that you could take off take on where he left off
00:57:06 from electronics
00:57:31 [Music]
00:57:47 maybe one or two documents but it was really very restricted i think that he believed that the handover should be as short as possible
00:57:57 [Music] so there wouldn't be two people having the same role at the same time avec
00:58:08 avec [Music]
00:58:14 when you say two people having the same role at the same time do we understand from that that you and mr brichay shared the role of managing director for a period
00:58:31 of the managing director
00:58:34 no officially he finished at the end of
00:58:45 no officially he finished at the end of july and i began beginning of august so how could you have uh two people having the same role at the same time
00:59:02 probably
00:59:15 [Music]
00:59:28 [Music] the
00:59:52 [Music]
01:00:07 well when people are replacing the company sometimes there's some companies that choose to have them double up over a number of months but in this case the announcement that i was going to take over
01:00:15 over uh took place between the 1st and 15th of july
01:00:18 of july and then i took over in august
01:00:22 now looking at the document page 1 it says we can just get back to that please
01:00:36 it says certificate contract and we can see a reference number over here
01:00:52 the very top of the page reference number s3
01:01:00 [Music]
01:01:07 but it looks like it was signed uh in uh 2007 and we can see a price you see uh of uh
01:01:18 you see uh of uh uh you can see a price for a little bit lower down we have to go don't
01:01:31 to go to the bottom of the page the price there is 16 527 pounds sterling you see that he says
01:01:42 yes and uh the specified use immediately above that you see it says as defined in clause 1.3 use of assessment specification s3
01:01:55 use of assessment specification s3 41014 dated 22nd of august 2006.
01:02:04 specifications
01:02:14 and now if we go to section two please uh
01:02:19 uh on the um above that um on the screen a third of the way down the page the subject you see
01:02:36 aluminium stroke polyethylene composite wall cladding and then system was typed in crossed out and somebody has written in manuscript
01:02:47 and somebody has written in manuscript panels
01:03:01 are you able to explain uh why the word system was deleted and panels substitute it yes
01:03:14 panels no no now you identified i think the signatures uh
01:03:25 the signatures uh apart from mr ritter are there any other signatures or or initials on this page that you can help us with
01:03:36 [Music]
01:03:42 yourself
01:04:03 no i don't know them i can see that there's twice the same signature but i don't really know it and there is a signature by the word panels but i can't identify it either
01:04:20 there could also be signatures from people from bba also okay you mentioned claude ritter um just just point out on the page where you see his signature or
01:04:31 page where you see his signature or initial
01:04:32 initial is that yes
01:04:38 indeed
01:04:44 no i can't see his signature all i see is this initial cr and that's quite written is it to be clear
01:04:59 yes i think it means claude return and i think it may be his handwriting thank you can we go to page two please in the english page two in the french
01:05:18 we scroll to the bottom of the page please in the english
01:05:24 and indeed the french to see if it's there
01:05:27 there uh it is uh and we see cr again the initials as well and if we go to page four please in both versions
01:05:41 we can see that this contract or these conditions have been uh signed or and uh scratched on the feb on february the 21st
01:05:52 on the feb on february the 21st 2007. you see that
01:06:00 can you identify the signature in the signature box next to the words signed on behalf of the applicant
01:06:15 effectively
01:06:26 now let's see
01:06:30 page three please in both versions
01:06:36 i'm going to look a little bit more closely with you mr schmidt at one or two of the terms and conditions of this contract all right
01:06:51 if you look on the left-hand column left-hand side of the page in each case hand column you'll see clause 7 or
01:07:02 hand column you'll see clause 7 or section 7
01:07:03 section 7 which in english reads other obligations of the applicant do you see that concentration obligations
01:07:17 yes i can see that and it says the applicant shall and then i want to show you two subsections here a and g a says and if you follow in the
01:07:28 and g a says and if you follow in the french i'll read it in english
01:07:36 disclose to the bba full particulars of and relating to the subject including but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing
01:07:44 foregoing particulars of its physical or chemical composition of any process or method of manufacture thereof
01:07:50 thereof of the quality of the control of the quality of the composition or manufacture thereof of any test data already available and of the test procedures used to obtain the same
01:08:00 the same provided that the bba will not include in the certificate any details of the composition or method of manufacture of the subject save such as shall be mutually agree between the applicant and the vba
01:08:13 between the applicant and the vba and before i leave that subparagraph i just want to focus you on your eyes on the words of any test data already available do
01:08:24 of any test data already available do you see that there is
01:08:29 is concern
01:08:36 easy
01:08:43 yes and then if we look at g together which is towards the bottom of the page in each okay
01:09:00 immediately notify the bba of any change in the particular supply to the bba or any third parties and also of any new or additional information concerning the subject
01:09:10 subject or its suitability for the specified use including without limitation to the generality of the foregoing details of claims by users of the subject that it is all maybe unsatisfactory for the specified use
01:09:24 unsatisfactory for the specified use and i just uh pick up with you the definition of specified use please on page two of this document you know
01:09:36 which you'll see on this page on the left hand side may have to be blown up so that you can see it under paragraph one point d under the definitions clause can we just have that
01:10:04 specified use the use specified on the front page in respect of which but of no other subject will be assessed by the bba here under
01:10:15 and then if we go to the foot of page three we can see clause 12 please
01:10:23 concentration right hand column at the foot of the page let's read uh aloud in english to yourself in french please expiry of the certificate explanation
01:10:36 expiry of the certificate explanation certificate will expire on the expiry date if a
01:10:39 date if a the applicant has not entered into a contract with the bba for a review of the subject and paid the fee required onto that contract on or before the expiry date or the bba has not in writing extended
01:10:50 or the bba has not in writing extended the validity of the certificate
01:10:54 and then if we go up to page two with this document
01:11:02 the definition of expiry date under under clause uh one l if we can just expand that please in both versions expiry date definition clause
01:11:16 specified in the appendix for the review of the certificate or if no date no such date is specified three years from the date of the issue of the certificate or if an extension of validity has been granted the date specified by
01:11:27 granted the date specified by the bba uh now i've shown you quite a lot of this contract mr schmidt i have a number of questions for you and again
01:11:35 again if you you can help me that would be very good and if you can't because
01:11:52 m now before i ask my first question i just want to put back in front of you from 7a and just remind you again of the words in there i want to ask you about
01:12:04 words in there i want to ask you about clause dr vermont
01:12:16 and it's the words any test data already available which i wanted you to focus on let's remind you of there that the applicant shall disclose any test data already available
01:12:34 the
01:12:37 now i want to show you what mr furley says in his witness statement english version met 3053190 page 17 at paragraph 59
01:12:49 paragraph 59 french version m e t 3 0 4 8 3 4 2 page 21 paragraph 59
01:13:02 position
01:13:10 halfway through the paragraph in english he says i am not aware of the detail of
01:13:21 you could read that paragraph from there to the end of the paragraph to yourself i'll read it out in english
01:13:31 i'm not aware of the detail of the contracts between aapsas and the bba over time colin southgate myself and nicholas remy have received bba contract documentation
01:13:42 have received bba contract documentation but as i organized certifications in numerous countries i did not know all the contractual details relating to such i rely on the relevant certification body to let me know what information it
01:13:53 body to let me know what information it requires
01:13:54 requires in order to undertake its assessment process
01:13:57 process i also have every confidence in the ongoing audit processes the certification bodies conduct now questions sorry sir the bottom of the text is presented
01:14:40 yes right now my first question for you mr schmidt is was it not claude vella's responsibility to understand what our comics contractual obligations to the bba
01:14:51 contractual obligations to the bba were i don't know it
01:15:08 r
01:15:15 yes i think in that case yes and do you agree that it was for verde's job to make sure that arconic complied with its obligations to the bba
01:15:27 complied with its obligations to the bba yes
01:15:36 respected
01:15:41 [Music] yes him directly or his team
01:15:48 and that would include wouldn't it the obligation to give all particulars of all test data available
01:15:55 available to the vba yes
01:15:59 obligations
01:16:09 yes thank you mr chairman is that a convenient moment we've come to a natural break but it's as good a time as any and well if it suits you i wasn't going to interrupt you in case you
01:16:21 interrupt you in case you had a run of questions that all uh really hang together but if it suits you to stop at that point i think it would be sensible to do so excuse me
01:16:31 excuse me mr speed right well as you heard from that exchange mr schmidt we are going to have a short break now
01:16:46 we shall resume your evidence please at uh 11 35.
01:16:56 please remember not to not to talk to anyone about your evidence all right good thank you um
01:34:42 back everyone we are now ready to resume taking mr schmidt's evidence begin by checking that the interpreters are with us yes we are with you good thank you very much and
01:34:53 much and check that mr schmidt is there and he can hear me and see me well
01:35:01 well yes i'm there hello mr schmidt again right and you're right
01:35:08 all right well if you're ready i'm going to invite mr millet to put some more questions to you yes mr millett thank you mr chairman mr schmidt i now want to turn the information that are from
01:35:19 turn the information that are from extent to the bba to support its application for certification
01:35:25 schmidt
01:35:36 now let's go please uh to the
01:35:43 to the subject of the test report we've seen before do you accept that our conic provided the standard 476 part 6 and 7 tests
01:36:22 yes we've seen no evidence from the records that arconic provided the bba with either the 1997
01:36:35 either the 1997 test certificates or report on our reyna bond pe 160 or any of the 2006
01:36:46 or any of the 2006 reports on renault bombed 33 signage product
01:37:18 my question is have you seen any evidence
01:37:22 evidence that our comic provided uh those certificates or reports to the bba yes review
01:37:41 uh i don't know i i i would suggest to you that the reason why
01:37:53 reason why none of those reports were provided to the bba is because they were not relevant
01:37:57 relevant do you agree
01:38:31 [Music]
01:38:36 as far as the uh 2006 rb 33 yes but i think that the 97 report could have been submitted
01:38:51 but it's true that production took place in the united states
01:38:56 yes now we know that the bba was provided with the uh classification report
01:39:08 with the uh classification report under en13501 for the pe in riveted form relating to test five a we know that and we also know that the
01:39:20 we know that and we also know that the bba was provided with the classification report under en13501
01:39:27 en13501 for the renault 55 with fr core we know that
01:39:37 classification students
01:40:06 m now uh we know that now a colic did not provide the bba with any documents
01:40:16 documents relating to test 5b the test conducted in december 2004 on the cassette fix variant of renault bond 55 pe
01:40:29 bond 55 pe do you know why not
01:40:33 a document or
01:40:48 no
01:40:52 do you agree that the bba should have been
01:40:55 been sent the documents pertaining to test 5b
01:41:02 yes
01:41:16 me
01:41:24 yes
01:41:28 mr verlai in his witness um provides a number of reasons why excuse me why test 5b was not provided to the bba
01:41:41 why test 5b was not provided to the bba and i want to examine them with you and see if
01:41:44 see if you agree with them um can we begin please with mr verne's witness statement at page 48 in the english page 24 in the french
01:41:55 french english met3053190 page 48.
01:42:24 again paragraph 177.
01:42:33 uh that isn't the right hey uh it's coming up i think so this is met30483
01:42:43 met30483 age 24.
01:42:52 thank you i'll read any english loud and i'm i'd like you to read please in the french to yourself
01:43:03 i'm going to read the whole paragraph to you but what i want you to focus on in this paragraph is the last six lines
01:43:13 uh in he says as referred to at paragraph 54 above an update was was received from the bba on the 15th of may 2007 noting that good progress had been made
01:43:24 noting that good progress had been made in the assessment of brainerd architecture tagging panels and there's some further information was needed in order to complete the assessment this included react test data for the standard pe panel
01:43:35 standard pe panel as the bba informed aap sas that the french classification as described in the heavy technique was not recognized in the uk this could have been a reference to the m classification system referred to
01:43:46 m classification system referred to paragraphs 42 and 45 above in response to this on the 25th of may 2007
01:43:52 2007 i provided the cstb enjoy
01:44:12 and sought confirmation from the bba whether that was okay for their purposes which they confirmed to be the case exhibited at p2391 i do not recall the vba ever requesting
01:44:24 i do not recall the vba ever requesting any additional fire test reports i did not provide the test report for the cassette variant
01:44:33 five b ra05005b a single sample test report and not a valid classification report
01:44:41 now we saw earlier before the break to
01:45:05 well let the interpreter just um interpret your run up to the question please
01:45:13 please i'll put it again mr chairman she's translated we saw uh before the break that the terms and conditions of our
01:45:24 that the terms and conditions of our colleagues contract with the bba required our comic to provide
01:45:29 provide any test data available you remember that
01:45:50 you accept that test 5b was test data in relation to the cassette system
01:46:10 yes would it follow that arconic was legally obliged to provide the available test data test 5b to the bba
01:46:21 available test data test 5b to the bba and yes
01:46:40 yes probably now the bba technical file is very large uh we have seen
01:46:51 very large uh we have seen no evidence in there that anybody at our conic
01:46:56 conic mentioned the existence of ib on cassette to the bba
01:47:05 translated thank you
01:47:23 if we're right about that do you know why not
01:47:30 no no
01:47:33 we found no evidence that anyone in our conic told the bba that the fire performance of the cassette variant of raynaud 55 pe
01:47:44 of the cassette variant of raynaud 55 pe was different from the fire performance established by the test for rivet test 5a
01:48:12 if we're right about that do you know why not
01:48:24 do you know from your own knowledge on the documents that you have seen [Music]
01:48:29 [Music] uh whether arconic did tell the bba that the cassette fixed variant of rayna bond 55 pe had been tested under the european
01:48:41 pe had been tested under the european test system for fire separately from
01:49:12 then no no
01:49:21 do you accept that the bba could not have known uh about either the existence of test 5b uh or the fact that the cassette variant
01:49:33 uh or the fact that the cassette variant of rayner bomb 55 pe performed so differently from rivet in a fire
01:49:39 fire unless arconic
01:50:08 foreign
01:50:28 no i don't accept that because i think that bba was in a a um communicated with cstb on a regular basis
01:50:41 so is your evidence that arconic would not provide relevant test data to the bba but would leave it to the bba
01:50:52 to the bba but would leave it to the bba to ask the cs tv
01:51:04 or csdb
01:51:15 [Music]
01:51:34 well no according to the contract as you explained previously archonic was supposed to inform um bba but at the same time that information was public and so therefore that information
01:51:45 that information could have been obtained differently
01:51:57 [Music] know how the bba audits were carried out on the site
01:52:15 it foreign the information certainly was available and it could have been supplied if it had been requested
01:52:23 let's look uh and see what mr verde says about
01:52:26 about that he makes rather the same point can we look back in his statement please at uh english version page 16 french version page 19 in both cases
01:52:56 b
01:53:19 the english and the french together thank you now
01:53:24 um
01:53:30 the page to be turned in the french in english it reads as part of the application for the bba certificate the bba on the 15th of may 2007
01:53:41 bba on the 15th of may 2007 informed me that it required a reaction to fire test data for a standard pe panel
01:53:45 panel as they already had data for an fr panel in reply i sent them the relevant and recent relatively recent cstb report ra05
01:53:55 ra05 a and the bba immediately replied this document was acceptable i consider that the bba would be able to identify the relevant test as having been conducted using a rivet system and had no reason to doubt that if the
01:54:06 and had no reason to doubt that if the bba had felt it necessary to ask for any other system test reports they would have done so
01:54:44 i'm going to interrupt you because something is not working properly with your
01:54:48 your sound we are hearing you speaking in a very disjointed and drawn out manner i don't know whether you are a little too far from your microphone
01:55:00 too far from your microphone or whether there's some other problem on the line but uh that last question was pretty unintelligible so you may have to put it again um uh mr chair i'm sorry about that
01:55:15 um uh mr chair i'm sorry about that can you hear me now i can hear you at the moment perfectly satisfactorily right well let's
01:55:22 let's maybe proceed and then uh see how we go and if it happens again i'll have to ask rts to see what they can do but i don't think i've changed anything yet yes all right um try the question again mr
01:55:36 all right um try the question again mr schmidt i'm sorry about that it seems to be a mechanical problem uh let me try again i was reading out paragraph 54 to you of mr verde's witness statement
01:55:50 to you of mr verde's witness statement uh can we please have that up again
01:55:58 hello
01:56:03 now i'm not going to read it out again i'm going to assume that because it's there on the screen the panel
01:56:09 panel and members of the public have seen what mr verle says there and you will have read the french to yourself can you confirm that you've read paragraph 54 to yourself in french mr schmidt
01:56:39 yourself please
01:57:01 okay okay now i want to just ask you to focus please on the last sentence of that paragraph and particularly where mr
01:57:13 that paragraph and particularly where mr verlai says that he had no reason to doubt that if the bba had felt it necessary to ask for any other system test reports they would have done so
01:57:25 have done so now my question is and i'll ask it again did our colleague regard it as up to the bba to ask for
01:57:36 regard it as up to the bba to ask for the right test data and certificate rather than for arconic to volunteer it
01:57:50 is
01:58:04 um
01:58:08 [Music]
01:58:14 according to the document i saw previously the archonic contract should have supplied them
01:58:51 [Music]
01:58:54 so from experience when i had the bba audits in the 90s on the pre-coated reno lux product the audits used to take place once or twice a year and we
01:59:06 once or twice a year and we exchanged
01:59:25 [Music] and we exchange with the auditor with regard to any changes that may have taken place in the in the previous period
01:59:35 period [Music]
01:59:43 so therefore we worked jointly or together
01:59:54 when mr verlais says that if the bba had felt it necessary to ask for any other system test reports they would have done how does that reconcile
02:00:07 how does that reconcile how is that consistent with clause 7a
02:00:36 [Music] foreign
02:00:42 according to the contract you're right it should have come from us indeed how would the bba know whether to ask or the separate test results for pe in cassette form
02:00:54 results for pe in cassette form if iconic did not tell them that it had done one
02:01:02 day
02:01:06 foreign
02:01:20 um
02:01:41 [Music]
02:01:52 and once again if i compare with my own experience with reynold lux i mean when we had a bba audit for renulux products at the end of the audit the auditors would ask us whether they'd been any
02:02:03 would ask us whether they'd been any changes in the product in the process whether we had anything to address
02:02:28 and if we are in the situation of an audit i would imagine that the auditor could very well have asked what other elements what new elements do you have regarding file testing
02:02:46 regarding file testing assuming that that was the process here can you explain why if that question had been asked by the pka arconic did not volunteer test 5b at
02:02:57 arconic did not volunteer test 5b at that point
02:03:41 [Music]
02:04:01 [Music]
02:04:08 i mean it's very difficult to talk about this and i don't know really how to express it but uh
02:04:15 uh the first thing is that i didn't attend and who did with bba in the years 2005 to 2015 so i don't know exactly how it happened and how it worked but i believe that
02:04:28 and how it worked but i believe that if the auditors had asked questions he would have got the answers
02:04:34 why would our colleague have left it to the bba to discover the existence
02:04:42 existence of test 5b through the audit process rather than simply volunteering that test data in accordance with
02:04:53 that test data in accordance with its contractual obligations
02:05:01 necessity
02:05:04 or
02:05:18 is
02:05:25 [Music] well i can't answer this question and i can't put myself in the place of the person was in contact with the bba or
02:05:37 person was in contact with the bba or ditter
02:05:39 ditter then who is that
02:05:45 [Music]
02:06:00 uh [Music]
02:06:10 i believe there probably was cloud valley and claude verley's team and probably somebody from quality insurance but that person probably wouldn't be much of a
02:06:20 a of fire testing from our comics point of view mr schmidt
02:06:28 is there a reason you can think of why arconic
02:06:32 arconic would have preferred to leave it to the bba to discover the existence of test 5b rather than providing it in accordance with its contractual obligations
02:07:10 no
02:07:15 so unless as a matter of policy unless arconic told the bba that the cassette variant of reynabond 55pe
02:07:25 55pe core performed differently in afar from rivet
02:07:32 you were taking a chance weren't you on whether or not the bba might eventually pick it up in an audit
02:08:27 i've mentioned the word chance and risk and
02:08:31 and there's a question as to the validity of my translation try the question again
02:08:44 unless arconic told the bba that the cassette variant of reyna bond 5
02:08:50 5 pe core performed differently in a fire from rivet iconic was taking a chance on whether or not the bba might later
02:09:01 on whether or not the bba might later pick up that fact in an audit do you accept that iconic was taking that chance
02:09:13 the performance on the poor la variation
02:10:06 yes i think so yes
02:10:19 [Music]
02:10:26 cfx [Music]
02:10:48 i've got a problem with that notion of running a risk or running having to be exposed by chance i mean maybe that's not the right word but uh
02:10:59 not the right word but uh if uh that's true something had never been mentioned on the subject it could have been
02:11:05 have been found out discovered you regard it let me try the question again mr schmidt why would arconic uh
02:11:17 why would arconic uh uh risk the bba missing the existence of test 5b and the difference in fire performance between rivet and cassette as opposed simply to telling the vba
02:11:31 questions
02:12:07 [Music]
02:12:13 i don't know how to answer this i mean i don't know why at the start that test wasn't mentioned
02:12:24 but it could have been found out discovered during an audit
02:12:39 can we look at the technical file uh at page one three three please uh which is bba four zero is eight
02:12:46 is eight eight zero four page 133
02:12:54 what i'm going to show you mr schmidt is an extract from the english and welsh approved document b forming part of the building regulations in force at the time of the grenfell
02:13:06 in force at the time of the grenfell tower project
02:13:14 documentation
02:13:25 this is called diagram 40 from approved document b
02:13:37 [Music]
02:13:41 i don't know what that document is i don't think i've ever seen it what is that document i'm explaining it to you mr schmidt of course it is and you've answered my first question of course but this is diagram 40
02:13:53 course but this is diagram 40 forming part of approved document b which applies to buildings in england and wales under the building regulations and the related approved guidance
02:14:05 related approved guidance revolution
02:14:10 questions
02:14:32 now if we scroll down a little bit on the screen i want to show you uh um paragraph e any building
02:14:43 um paragraph e any building uh and i know you've said you've never seen this before can i just ask you is there anybody in arconic responsible for selling or marketing
02:14:57 for selling or marketing reno bond pe55 who should have been familiar with this document
02:15:32 no no
02:15:53 [Music]
02:16:06 [Music]
02:16:17 he afferent to separately no i don't think it would have been possible for us to understand all that i mean reynold bond was sold from mexi
02:16:29 from mexi all over europe in all the european countries and in many other countries around the world and it would have been perfectly impossible for us to understand all the legislations
02:16:40 to understand all the legislations in the relevant countries i thought that we had agreed you could agreed with me uh that the sales force
02:16:53 uh that the sales force working in any particular region would have to have at least a basic understanding of what the local regulations required
02:17:04 what the local regulations required which related what they could and couldn't sell i thought you'd agreed with me this morning about that
02:17:26 a
02:17:37 yes let's look at this document it says under e any building and you can see
02:17:45 see a um uh geometric shape there uh which says any dimension over 18 meters
02:17:53 meters and that's shaded part of the building uh look at the shaded box
02:18:19 and if you look at the shaded box on the right hand side there it says class naught national class or class b s3 d2 or better european class
02:18:36 response
02:18:52 [Music]
02:18:55 so are you saying that this document applied in 2006 where we were pla where we
02:19:00 we when we applied for the bba certificate yes wait
02:19:09 yes wait don't set phone in that format in substantially that format or as this page is concerned so far as i'm told yes yes essentially
02:19:30 it's right as i think you've agreed that arconic at the time that the bba was assessing reino bond for the purpose of the purposes of the certificate that iconic wanted iconic had test data
02:19:45 that iconic wanted iconic had test data showing that reynabon 55 pe in cassette form uh did not have class b
02:19:56 european test completely
02:20:27 yes and therefore is it not right that the test data from test 5b was extremely relevant to the bba's
02:20:38 was extremely relevant to the bba's assessment because it showed that in cassette fabrication form the product radiobond 55pe would fall far below the classification
02:20:52 would fall far below the classification of the on this document a donkey
02:21:24 is
02:21:30 but on this document there's also the class zero that's mentioned
02:21:36 mr schmidt i'm asking you about the euro classification do you accept that test 5b was an extremely relevant and important
02:21:48 was an extremely relevant and important piece of information for the bba to know because it showed that in cassette form renault bond 55 pe fell very far but foot below the european
02:21:59 but foot below the european classification demanded in this document
02:22:04 mr schmidt success
02:22:34 yes do you know whether there was any discussion within our colleague about making test 5b available to any certification body
02:22:48 yes
02:23:03 if our colleague had genuinely believed that test five b was as mr verley describes it a rogue result an aberrant
02:23:14 a rogue result an aberrant result why not simply give that result to the bba with the data and see whether the bba agreed
02:23:44 b
02:23:50 i don't know i can't answer your question
02:23:55 do you accept as the voice of arconic that not providing test 5b to the bba was a deliberate concealment of what our
02:24:07 was a deliberate concealment of what our conic knew to be the true position namely that the cassette variant of rayna 55
02:24:13 rayna 55 pe performed disastrously in a fire escape incarnation
02:24:26 resulted in
02:24:50 no when you say deliberate that's too much
02:24:54 much well was it an accident
02:25:05 [Music]
02:25:08 um [Music]
02:25:14 i mean i can't reply i can't answer and i can't give a qualification i mean i cannot
02:25:20 cannot know what claude verlis was thinking about or reasoning at the time
02:25:27 maybe you can't mr schmidt but i'm asking you as the managing director from 2007 and the president
02:25:34 president from 2009 uh who conic's point of view marconi's point of view do you accept as a company that the
02:25:47 that the concealment of test 5b from the bba was deliberate
02:26:00 director managing director apart from enough
02:26:26 so is this concealment of test 5b from the bba
02:26:31 the bba conduct which iconic even today
02:26:47 valid
02:26:51 no so what went wrong
02:27:00 questions
02:27:11 [Music]
02:27:23 [Music]
02:27:36 well first i mean the people were monday mandated to exchange with bba on the subject they probably didn't give the good information
02:27:47 the good information the right information and also during all that period there must have been numerous audits and no questions were asked about that
02:28:00 do you accept that in presenting
02:28:05 the rivet test 5a only to the bba as representative of the fire performance of renault 55 pe
02:28:18 arconic was telling the bba a misleading half truth
02:28:38 foreign
02:28:54 yes you can see it like that thank you the reason why iconic did not provide test 5b
02:29:02 test 5b to the bba is because it would have cast serious doubt on the far performance of rayna
02:29:21 sandy
02:29:29 [Music]
02:29:48 conqueror
02:29:53 well i mean i'm not sure really and anyway it's after analyzing other bbs certificates from competitors
02:30:17 and there are a few there's some of them who never
02:30:21 who never gave any information on the european classification and only talked about the class zero for the total of their products the mass of their products
02:30:48 i think if we really want i think if we really wanted to hide part of the truth we could just simply uh carried out class zero tests and mentioned the class zero tests to the bba
02:31:01 to the bba well you say that would be hiding the truth um why didn't you carry out any class zero tests on raynaud 55 p e either in rivet or in cassette and provide those results to the
02:31:35 [Music]
02:31:42 system and for class 0 it's independent of the
02:31:47 of the system's form
02:31:50 is the reason why those who were mandated to deal with va as you put it
02:31:59 conceal the existence of five test five b
02:32:02 b from them or the difference in fire performance between cassette and rivet um that if the bba were told about the clause at test 5b and that information got out that could
02:32:15 and that information got out that could substantially affect sales of the cassette variant in the uk
02:32:22 i found
02:33:04 i hear the question once again because it's long i'll put it much more shortly
02:33:12 this is the reason why our comic kept the test 5b from the bba
02:33:32 commercial
02:33:47 mr schmidt i'm now going to turn to the bba certificate itself uh and uh how it was created if you can help me with that and we start in october 2007
02:34:00 start in october 2007 with the working draft now at this time uh you were managing director at merkstein and confirmed for me would that rainer bond 55
02:34:10 55 was a product in relation to which you had responsibility
02:34:48 yes can we go to uh claude velle's exhibits part 15 at met 305
02:34:59 at met 305 underscore p15 page 188
02:35:06 documents
02:35:11 now i do not think we have a french version
02:35:14 version of this document
02:35:20 i'll be corrected about that and of course show it to you evidently
02:35:28 let's go through it slowly we can see here
02:35:32 here an email to claude velle from jemo gregorian of the bba on monday the 22nd of october 2007
02:35:49 gregorian vandal and what i'm going to do is read out you and have melon translator translate
02:36:01 and have melon translator translate the parts of the email i want to show you we can see in the first paragraph he says
02:36:07 says claude that's claude vale a copy of our proposed draft certificate is attack
02:36:18 valley an example
02:36:27 and then skipping down to the fourth paragraph down he says in your response please include the following
02:36:38 paragraphs
02:36:46 a suitable color image for the front page about 10 centimeters by 10 centimeters minimum 300 dpi resolution in the image
02:37:03 the solutions pe information regarding sorry relating to section 2 delivery storage and site handling
02:37:14 section
02:37:21 any additional or missing information you may feel could be helpful to the user stroke specifier
02:37:30 supplements
02:37:38 amendments to any data or statements which you may consider to be inaccurate the modification vis-a-vis
02:37:48 now just pausing there is correct isn't it that those last two bullet points there are clear and specific requests
02:38:00 specific requests to our comic to check the draft for completeness and accuracy okay
02:38:22 would you have expected your team at our comic to have pointed out any significant emissions or errors
02:38:40 today yes do you agree that test 5b would be helpful to the user or specifier
02:38:52 test based utility
02:39:03 yes do you agree that a user or specifier would not simply find test 5b useful but in fact absolutely
02:39:14 useful but in fact absolutely crucial safety information
02:39:22 test
02:39:36 yes yes
02:39:40 in fact life and death stuff to be colloquial do you agree on reality supplements or
02:40:02 that's too strong what's the right way of pushing
02:40:18 me
02:40:32 for the
02:40:39 for matters relating to safety as you expressed in the previous question
02:40:59 uh i'm getting a message that this is not a fair line of questioning and i'm required to put the whole of the email to you i'm very happy to do that
02:41:11 to you i'm very happy to do that uh i'm going to show you the second and third paragraphs which i didn't read to you so in fairness to you you can look at it uh uh miss mr miller mr
02:41:24 uh uh miss mr miller mr sorry to interrupt may i suggest you just ask the interpreter to translate the whole of the emails so that the witness gets the whole
02:41:35 whole picturing context of the course um could you then ask could you ask sorry could you translate the
02:42:52 uh
02:43:48 but it's clear isn't it that the last two bullet points in the yellow big yellow paragraph on the screen in front of you
02:44:00 the screen in front of you any additional or missing information you may feel could be helpful to the user
02:44:04 user or specifier are clear and specific requests to arconic to check the draft for completeness and accuracy do you agree clearness
02:44:39 yes and would you have expected your team at arconic to have pointed out any significant emissions or errors
02:44:57 yes do you agree that test 5b would be helpful to the user or specifier excuse me
02:45:11 yes do you agree that a user would not simply find test 5 be useful but in fact absolutely crucial safety information yes
02:45:35 yes potentially making the difference between life and death
02:45:54 uh
02:46:02 [Music] uh
02:46:29 [Music]
02:46:37 or specifiers
02:46:44 [Music]
02:46:49 of the system utilizing
02:47:05 well once again i don't agree yes it does have an impact on the flammability but the english regulation that you showed me in the previous document referring to class zero it's it showed that the product could be used so even if users or specifier
02:47:17 used so even if users or specifier uh could use class zero on the facade it would depend on on the system and it could potentially be totally in agreement with the regulations
02:47:29 can you explain why you agree with me that test five 5b would be absolutely crucial safety information but not so crucial that it would make a difference between life and death mr schmidt
02:47:46 represents
02:48:00 schmidt
02:48:15 when one talks about safety one doesn't only refer to safety relating to people
02:48:22 so crucial safety information for the protection of property but not life is
02:48:42 yes let's look at the certificate uh let's have one screen please the final bba certificate as issued this is bba 60 47
02:48:53 as issued this is bba 60 47 we have a french translation mr schmidt for you and that's arc underscore t or zeros one two examine certificates
02:49:10 certificates
02:49:19 uh now on the left hand side we have the by now familiar english version and the i imagine much less familiar french translation of this french translation of this
02:49:33 french translation of this uh this i should just tell you mr schmidt is an iconic translation
02:49:50 and i'd just like to ask you first of all some more general questions about this
02:49:55 this um you can see at the bottom the date is the 14th of january 2008. do you see that
02:50:05 that's right i'm afraid that in the french you're going to have to go over to the second page to see that at the very top of the second page of the french in the very bottom of the
02:50:16 the french in the very bottom of the page in english you see that were you yes my question is at this time january 2008 did you see this certificate that is
02:50:40 i don't know i don't believe so when do you
02:50:43 you think to the best of your memory you did first see this
02:50:48 uh
02:51:02 speaker
02:51:17 well let's see how far we go with it then
02:51:22 we can see if we go to the top of the first page that it is a certificate
02:51:31 uh in relation to raynaud architecture wall claddy panels we can see the dark blue band yes
02:52:13 yes
02:52:16 and uh under that it says this certificate of confirmation relates to rainer bond architecture wall padding panels and if mr schmidt could read along in the french version
02:52:28 the french version which starts just under the lighter blue band
02:52:31 band there
02:52:36 this certificate of confirmation relates to raynaud architecture wall chatting panels aluminium stroke polyethylene composite panels used to provide a decorative straight protective facade over the external walls of buildings you
02:52:48 over the external walls of buildings you see that
02:52:49 see that the way and a little bit way a little bit of the way down the page it says key factors assessed uh it's very it's towards the very bottom of your screen in the french
02:53:00 bottom of your screen in the french version and i'd like if it's possible the french version to be raised up so that we scroll down back to there you see that
02:53:12 do you see the heading key factors assessed
02:53:16 factor evaluated yes fine and underneath that it says
02:53:27 yes fine and underneath that it says three down uh behavior in relation to fire uh it's in bold in the english but it's not that easy to find in the french but it starts with the word
02:53:45 i'll read the words behavior in relation to fire and it says in the english in relation to the building regulations for reaction to fire the panels
02:53:54 panels may be regarded may be regarded as having a class naught surface in england and wales and a low-risk material in scotland c-section six
02:54:08 and in the french nation of that the words the panels may be regarded as in the
02:54:13 the second line in that little section madam translator could just point those words out please
02:54:23 yes thank you yes now just to be clear the document was issued in english
02:54:34 clear the document was issued in english and the french version was a friend is a french translation of the english isn't it
02:54:38 it to be clear it was never issued in french
02:54:46 says
02:55:14 you can see uh at the bottom of this page
02:55:19 page in the english and i'm afraid it's well we could well we can work with this let let's um i'm so sorry let's stick with the french page we scroll back up in the
02:55:30 the french page we scroll back up in the english version uh and if we go to the technical specifications which is the last blue box in the french on that page and the big blue box on the page on the
02:55:42 and the big blue box on the page on the left on the screen technical specification it says description one point one uh the rayner bond architecture wall cladding panels if mr schmidt could just read along with me
02:55:56 hello
02:56:10 side of a core of low density polyethylene ldpe the panels are available either plain edged riveted system or flanged cassette system to suit
02:56:21 or flanged cassette system to suit architectural requirements see figure one a duragloss or pvdf coating available in various colors protects the exposed face a polyester primer protects the
02:56:32 a polyester primer protects the unexposed face the products are also available in a fire retardant grade and if you look at figure one below uh in the english it'll have to be
02:56:45 below uh in the english it'll have to be scrolled up a bit and in the french version we're going to have to turn the page thank you they're next to each other if mr schmidt could look at the french will i
02:56:54 i look at the english you can see that there are diagrams of the two systems the heading says figure one render bond architecture panels and typical fixing systems
02:57:08 panels and typical fixing systems and then on the left is there's the riveted system and on the right is the cassette system can you see that available
02:57:21 can you see that available really yes now if we go to page five of the certificate in the english and six in the french
02:57:32 the french we see section six behavior in relation to fire let's look at uh section 6.1 mr schmidt would read along in the french
02:57:43 along in the french i will go with the english and in the english
02:57:47 english it says up next to 6.1 a standard sample of the product with a gray straight green duragloss 5000
02:57:55 5000 when tested for reaction to fire achieved a classification of b s 2 d naught in accordance with e n 13501 part 1 2002
02:58:06 13501 part 1 2002 that's the european classification it goes on a fire retardant sample of the product with a gold-colored duragloss finish when tested for reaction to fire achieved a classification
02:58:17 classification naught in accordance with en 13501 2002
02:58:27 and the do you agree with me that the first reference there the standard sample
02:58:32 sample is a reference to rhinobond 55 with a pe core
02:58:43 in ample right yes and that's a reference isn't it to the 2005
02:58:51 the 2005 test a classific uh test and classification which related to renault 55 pe rivet fix isn't it
02:58:58 isn't it is
02:59:12 yes probably and as i've shown you in the second sentence of paragraph 6.1 there's a reference to the fire retardant
02:59:23 sample of the product
02:59:41 to the 2006 classification of raynaud fr isn't it classification
02:59:55 yes wait wait yes then on this paragraph 6.2
03:00:00 6.2 i'll read the english if you look at the french keys it says a fire retardant sample of the product with a metallic grey pvdf finish when tested
03:00:08 tested in accordance with bs 476 part 6 1989 achieved a fire propagation index i of naught and when tested in accordance with bs 476 part 7 1997 achieved a class 1 surface spread
03:00:22 7 1997 achieved a class 1 surface spread of flame
03:00:28 yes just pausing there that's a reference uh isn't it uh to the 2003 warrington fire tests on radio bond fr core isn't
03:00:39 fire tests on radio bond fr core isn't it
03:00:46 warrington renault avec faire
03:00:56 yes probably um no mr chairman i find myself plumb in the middle of this certificate with quite a few questions to go on it but it's now one minute past one
03:01:07 minute past one um having shown the witness six point one and six point two um i need to show him a whole lot of section six uh particularly the section well miss
03:01:18 uh particularly the section well miss millet i i did realize that you were probably going to find yourself in this predicament but i think that probably it would make sense wouldn't it to break at that point and come back
03:01:29 and come back with a presumably a number of questions after
03:01:33 after we've had a break yes there is a logic to breaking here and i i i would ask that we seize that yes well i'm persuaded right um
03:01:56 well i think you understood from what you heard probably mr schmidt that we're going to take a break now for some lunch we'll come back please at two o'clock at two o'clock uk time
03:02:12 and uh again i have to remind you please not talk about your evidence over the break
03:02:28 all right see you at 2 o'clock then thank you very much
03:03:12 you