Claude Schmidt, former Arconic president, continues evidence about the 2004/2005 fire tests on Reynobond 55 PE, comparing rivet (test 5a) versus cassette (test 5b) systems. The cassette system performed spectacularly worse and the test was stopped, yet Arconic continued to sell PE cassettes.
00:00:04 good afternoon everyone welcome back we are about to continue taking the evidence of mr claude schmidt but before we do that i must just check
00:00:15 but before we do that i must just check that our interpreters are with us that they can see and hear all that they should be able to see and hear
00:00:21 hear so uh interpreters are you there yes we're both with you and we can both see and hear you very good thank you very much indeed
00:00:32 very good thank you very much indeed then we better make sure that mr schmidt is there and can see and hear us all clearly mr schmidt are you there mr mr smith
00:00:45 mr mr smith yes very good oh yes there we are hello uh ready to carry on
00:00:56 yes i'm ready thank you very much then i'll invite mister some more questions to you almost immediately yes chairman thank you mr schmidt
00:01:07 yes chairman thank you mr schmidt i'd now like to look with you please at the tests of reyno bond 55 pe conducted in late 2004 and their first classifications to
00:01:19 and their first classifications to en13501
00:01:20 en13501 in january of 2005. oh mr
00:01:38 the first classification in sorry january 2005
00:01:52 now what i'm going to do uh just so you're clear about this exercise is to take you through the two test reports
00:01:59 reports in a little bit of detail just to make sure
00:02:02 sure that you and we are all clear about what they show
00:02:06 they show off
00:02:20 be now there just just to summarize what i'm going to show you there were uh two set of tests one set of tests performed on radiobond
00:02:32 one set of tests performed on radiobond 55 pe
00:02:33 55 pe in rivet form which is test 5a full name ra05005a or test 5a
00:02:48 is
00:03:08 and there's another set of tests performed on raynaud 55 pe in cassette form which was test ra0500 b
00:03:19 ra0500 b which we call test 5b
00:03:30 0
00:03:38 now my first question is are you familiar
00:03:41 familiar with these two sets of tests for rivet
00:03:58 right let's see how we go can we have test 5a up first and in french the french version that is met3 zeros
00:04:11 the french version that is met3 zeros 53158
00:04:13 53158 page 44
00:04:16 english version is arc 50535 at page one
00:04:26 point
00:04:33 yes thank you so we have the french on the
00:04:37 the left hand side of your screen and the english
00:04:40 english on the right hand
00:04:49 [Music] reaction to fire test report number zero r805 zero zero five a according to the european standards nfen 13823 and nf
00:05:02 nfen 13823 and nf iso 11925 part two and we can see underneath that that it's valid
00:05:22 a
00:05:30 now can we go to page three in the english and page 46 in the french we're sticking with test 5a
00:05:41 and on that page we can see the particulars of the
00:05:57 and we could see the date of the test was the 2nd of december 2004.
00:06:19 yes and if we go to the bottom of page three
00:06:27 three i think we need to scroll down to the bottom of the screen in each case please we can see the signatures and the date
00:06:38 we can see the signatures and the date of the
00:06:38 of the test reports the signatures are there gilda's creech and martial bonom from the cstb and the date there the 7th of january
00:06:49 and the date there the 7th of january 2005.
00:06:50 2005. can you see that
00:06:58 [Music] the cstb yes
00:07:04 yes we go to page four in the english and page 47 in the french please
00:07:13 say a summary description uh a summary description of the description somewhere in the french summary description in the english and if you just look at that please you can see that
00:07:24 can see that the uh
00:07:28 the composite the description is composite panel consisting of a low density polyethylene core surfaced on both sides with the thermally bonded pre-coated aluminium sheet provided system riveted on metal
00:07:41 provided system riveted on metal substructure finish duragloss 5035 microns and then you see underneath that overall
00:07:52 and then you see underneath that overall nominal thickness is four millimeters and the color is gray green you see that
00:08:07 now i'd like to show you page five in the english page 48 in the french please if we can have those up page 5 48 of this test 5a on rivet
00:08:19 48 of this test 5a on rivet and we can see the result there of the tests in the boxes and um we can see that there is a test
00:08:31 and um we can see that there is a test you see on the top it says it's the small flame of a burner nf en iso nine two five 11925 two which is also
00:08:42 nine two five 11925 two which is also called the single flame source test and do you see there that for each of the uh results there's a an exposure
00:08:53 uh results there's a an exposure of flame to the pre-coated sheet in the first box there do you see that
00:09:03 exposed
00:09:11 and you can see that under comments and results
00:09:15 results uh there is a type of exposure surface uh 30 seconds
00:09:35 of this test 5a in the english page 6 page 49 in the french and we now see here on this page the first page of results for a different test namely the en13823 test
00:09:49 a different test namely the en13823 test otherwise known as the single burning item or
00:09:52 item or sbi
00:09:55 test
00:10:02 is
00:10:09 do you see there underneath about three quarters of the way down the screen it says
00:10:13 says preparation of the test pieces or in
00:10:29 and then you see at the bottom of the page that there are three specimens described uh specimens one two three can you see that
00:10:48 yes describe specimens one two three rayno bond 55 pe riveted system and then underneath that it says mounting panels fixed with rivets on a
00:11:00 mounting panels fixed with rivets on a framework in aluminium profiles then applicate on gypsum plasterboard riveted system means that the panel edges are free and that the low density polyethylene is
00:11:11 and that the low density polyethylene is apparent
00:11:13 apparent now let's go to page 7 in the english please and page 50 in the french
00:11:24 and just let's look at 5a rivet sorry specimen 2 can we look at specimen 2 in the middle english and also in the french ii
00:11:41 and i picked this just to say that this is the worst performing of these three rivet specimens for the purposes of comparison but let's look in the table there specimen ii and it has a number of uh
00:11:54 specimen ii and it has a number of uh sets of data there it has the figure result of
00:12:02 result of 105.5 and figure is fire growth rate index it's got a thr of 7.8 the thr is total heat release
00:12:15 7.8 the thr is total heat release and then a smogra figure of 5.7 there and that's the smoke growth rate index then we can see a description that time
00:12:27 then we can see a description that time intervals
00:12:29 intervals under commentary or comments in the english can you see a different sec difference time intervals in seconds you see that
00:12:36 see that we
00:12:46 mr schmidt are you following me so far as we walk through this stuff
00:12:58 in the time intervals if you look at the 355
00:13:02 355 second mark just under comments it says darkening of the sheet to 500 millimeters of height distortion of the sheet in the angle and on the joint 200 millimeters on a height
00:13:13 on the joint 200 millimeters on a height from zero to one thousand millimeters see that there over here
00:13:22 then if you skip to the bottom the last of those
00:13:26 of those uh time entries 1170 seconds you see it says falling ignited
00:13:40 so i'll show you those that data because that's the worst performing of the three specimens in test 5a on the rivet system
00:13:57 now let's look together at test 5b which is on the cassette system that's it in the english arc50536
00:14:08 in the english arc50536 and in the french at met3053158 at page 71. 71
00:14:20 let's have both of those up on the screen yes now we see again on the left hand side the english of this test and the french of this test uh
00:14:30 uh same format uh reaction to fire tests
00:14:36 ra05005 b see that the formula exactly
00:14:50 before we move into this document can you help me on the top right hand corner in the french and it's been translated on the left there is a triangle with an
00:15:01 on the left there is a triangle with an exclamation mark in it and some written k7 system not classified because the test had to be interrupted or in french if madame translator could
00:15:12 or in french if madame translator could read the french text there in manuscripts
00:15:24 i see that you know who wrote that there exclusively
00:15:31 no no you know
00:15:37 no no no no
00:15:58 k7 sorry
00:16:06 it's an abbreviation for cassette i should have worked that out
00:16:14 let me go to page three please in the english and the french also page 73.
00:16:26 you can see here that the uh date of the test is the 2nd of december 2004. you see that we let that do this one
00:16:39 and the commercial brand this time is renault bond 55 pe cassettes is
00:16:51 55 pe cassettes is let's go to page four in the english and page 74 in the french
00:16:57 people and we have there the provided system and you can see under the description there uh the panel again is described as multiple
00:17:11 the panel again is described as multiple layered complex consisting of polyethylene cord it's called surface on both sides with a thermally bonded
00:17:31 closed edges do you see that existing
00:17:39 finish yes a little lower down phoenician french finishing in english duragloss 5000 and again the color is grey green and
00:17:51 and again the color is grey green and again the nominal thickness is four millimeters
00:17:58 cut
00:18:03 okay okay okay okay let's go to page five then and page in the english and 75 in the french
00:18:30 those are the results there for the exposure on the surface and exposure on the edges you see that there hello that's your first exposition where you
00:18:41 that's your first exposition where you and let's look at page 1676 in the french
00:18:48 at the bottom of that those pages respectively we can see uh preparation of the test pieces of configuration in french
00:19:02 at this time mr schmidt will you see only one specimen renault bond 55 pe cassette system
00:19:17 do you know why only one specimen was chosen
00:19:20 chosen for the test uh in cassette variant but there were three specimens chosen when we saw the rivet fixed area
00:19:36 uh
00:19:41 now to see what happened in this you have to go to page seven of the english and 77 in the french
00:19:50 please
00:19:54 here we can see uh the comments and results specimen one see that reiner bond in the box rayna bond 55 pe cassette system
00:20:05 bond 55 pe cassette system and here we have the data the figaro figures are 1009.2
00:20:11 1009.2 the thr total heat release 59 agra
00:20:18 59 agra is 16.6 and let's look at the comments under comments or commentary in the french underneath the box it says at 630 seconds
00:20:30 it says at 630 seconds ignition inside the cassette in the angle
00:20:34 angle about 700 seconds large ignition inside the cassettes 850 seconds stop of the main burner because hr
00:20:45 burner because hr heat release rate exceeds 400 kilowatts and then in bold it says in english the tests were stopped after
00:20:58 in english the tests were stopped after 850 seconds the results are not usable but give an idea
00:21:03 idea of the fire behavior of the product
00:21:08 and if you could just look at that embolden the french and make sure you've read that text in the french piece
00:21:22 is there anything in these two test reports 5a and 5b that i've taken you through so far which you don't understand or which is incomplete or that or
00:21:33 or which is incomplete or that or there's something about them that you wish to go back and look at
00:21:42 this
00:21:52 no i believe it's clear
00:21:56 can you tell from this report why test 5b
00:22:00 5b on cassette was stopped in the middle uh of the first specimen test
00:22:10 s
00:22:25 second because from 700 seconds there was
00:22:29 was there was a there was a lot of fire now the witness said in ghost inflammation are you able to translate that expression
00:22:49 just a second
00:22:58 high flammability
00:23:01 let's compare the two results we're going to do the french language documents to assist you and if any members of the panel or indeed anybody else for that matter
00:23:12 indeed anybody else for that matter wants me to go to the english then i can be told but for you mr schmidt we can do it in the french can we compare please the test 5a and test 5b up on the up at the
00:23:23 test 5a and test 5b up on the up at the same time
00:23:24 same time met30 is 53158 at page 50 and met
00:23:32 3053158 page 77.
00:23:49 specimen 2 in test 5a on the bottom half of the page
00:24:01 with the only specimen from test b
00:24:07 and let's look at those together
00:24:11 test 5a left hand side the figure rate was 105.
00:24:24 in test b the figure rate is 1009.
00:24:31 that's nearly 10 times higher isn't it
00:24:38 yes looking at the thr result on the left i mean sorry soon exactly
00:24:56 and if you look at the result for test 5b cassette it's 59. yes
00:25:07 so that's a a figure result uh sorry a thr result of about seven times higher for the
00:25:18 of about seven times higher for the uh cassette variant than from the rivet variant isn't it
00:25:26 says
00:25:36 now let's look at the smoker the smoke growth index figures and compare the two on the left-hand side rivet uh the smog figure is 5.7 but on the right-hand side
00:25:47 right-hand side cassette the smaller figure is 16.6 so around three times higher for cassette than
00:26:14 the question is that when you compare these results um these are not small differences are they the the difference in the result between rivet and cassette are very great
00:26:31 [Music]
00:26:41 yes you accept that the cassettes according to this test 5b performed spectacularly worse than the rivet fix
00:27:04 now let's look at the classification report for the tests uh we'll start with the classification report for test five a please
00:27:14 classification
00:27:18 and this is an arc in english at arc
00:27:23 50358 and in the french arc underscore t4011
00:27:34 arc underscore t4011 english arc50358 french arc underscore t4011
00:27:41 t4011 this is the classification report now the classification so we've seen the test reports we're now looking at the classification reports
00:27:56 this one is 5a and if you look a little lower down on the page it refers to rainerborn 55 p e riveted system
00:28:05 system date of issue january 7th 2005. yes
00:28:21 the classification as you can see from the very big letters uh according to the european standard nf en
00:28:29 en zero one 13501 one classification
00:28:37 and let's go to page two in each of these documents
00:28:43 it's the same product under product description you can see the thickness four millimeters the finishing coats jira gloss by a thousand uh the color being gray green
00:28:54 green and above that the tested system riveted on metallic sub structure
00:29:09 now let's go to the classification itself under um under paragraph 3.2 on page four of the english and four of the french
00:29:22 and here we have it classification and field of application of paragraph 3.2 and you can see under classification under 4.2 uh it says in the box fire behavior b
00:29:35 uh it says in the box fire behavior b it's make production s2 flaming droplets or debris d naught classification b s two d naught you see that
00:29:46 s two d naught you see that everywhere
00:29:52 d zero
00:30:01 4.3 field of application and it says this classification is valid for the following product parameters for thickness of four millimeters and
00:30:13 for thickness of four millimeters and then it says only for the system riveted on any metallic substructure you see that it is
00:30:32 this classification is valid for the following
00:30:35 following end use conditions on any a1 or a2 substrate with a density equal to or greater than 700 kilograms per cubic meter with a minimum air gap of 50 millimeters
00:30:49 with a minimum air gap of 50 millimeters now i've shown you that is it right the only rhino bond p e in four millimeter thick in riveted form riveted form could be
00:31:01 in riveted form riveted form could be classified
00:31:25 yes and is it also correct that this result this classification could only validly apply where the panel was riveted
00:31:36 was riveted on a metallic substructure classification
00:31:44 fx
00:31:49 yes it's correct therefore is it not that this result this classification b s 2 d naught cannot be applied to the
00:32:00 s 2 d naught cannot be applied to the cassette
00:32:01 cassette fix variant of raynor bond 55 pe at all
00:32:09 classifications
00:32:21 yes now do you agree that there was and is no sorry was at the time no classification report
00:32:32 report which classified the results from test 5b
00:32:39 classification
00:32:48 yes do you agree and if you don't know tell me but do you agree that the test under en13823 which is one of the tests you have to do
00:33:00 you have to do pursuant to the european standard required three specimens as well as successful completion of the en 11925 part 2 test
00:33:11 en 11925 part 2 test that's right it did or can you not do not know
00:33:29 and sorry sir i forgot the end of your i've stopped at the three specimens
00:33:36 thank you
00:33:43 no i didn't know but do you agree that the reiner bond uh the test for rayner bond 55pe in cassette form performed so badly that the test was
00:33:55 performed so badly that the test was stopped
00:33:56 stopped so that there wasn't even a second specimen tested
00:34:22 [Music]
00:34:26 no i don't know i'm not sure that's the reason why they didn't do the test again
00:34:32 well we'll come to the reasons why they didn't do the test again in a little bit more detail but do you agree at least that the test on reynold bond 55 pe in cassette form
00:34:46 was stopped because it had performed so badly
00:35:00 for me
00:35:09 yes when was the first time to the best of your memory that you saw the test 5b report
00:35:28 report
00:35:41 first i didn't see the ripple
00:35:52 mentioned it after the fire i now want to ask you about test 5a and a point of detail about that
00:36:04 and a point of detail about that namely the air gap um can we go please to claude vella's witness statement nec30 is 53190 at page 19.
00:36:25 paragraph 64 in the english can i have a french please at met 30 is 48342 page 23. get paragraph 64.
00:36:39 and i'd like to pick it up when we get the french
00:36:46 it's met 30s 48342 page 23. thank you very much when we get to paragraph 64 i'd like to look at five lines down in there please which in
00:36:59 five lines down in there please which in english starts as part of my research
00:37:06 is
00:37:11 and in english i'll read it in english and if you read that past a bit in french
00:37:18 as part of my research in july 2011
00:37:27 as to the air blade by which i meant air gap between the radio bond cladding and the insulation that the cstb had used during the test it was informed that the air gap was 20 millimeters and the rockwool of 30
00:37:39 millimeters and the rockwool of 30 millimeters was used i corresponded confirming my understanding that the panels had to be tested that way because they are in practice installed in that way exhibited at pe127
00:37:50 in that way exhibited at pe127 it's correct to say that different air gaps and types and thicknesses of insulation for example are likely to influence the test result i had previously used an aircraft at 50 millimeters for some tests
00:38:01 millimeters for some tests but since july 2011 i believe only air gaps 20 millimeters were used now i just wanted to show you the email that he's referring to there mr schmidt it's at
00:38:10 it's at met in english met30 is 53158 page 184 and in french it's net30s five three one five
00:38:20 one five eight page one eight one so same example
00:38:29 and it's an email correspondence between claude vale and the cstb in july 2011 by which time you were president i think of our comic at merchheim and at the bottom of the page in the
00:38:41 and at the bottom of the page in the english
00:38:44 third email down if we just go to the bottom of the english page
00:38:58 but
00:39:07 friday the 1st of july 2011 to the cstb maxine bar and uh gilda's creech my reaction to fire tests hello in the english
00:39:18 english can you tell me how big the air gap between the rainy bond cladding and the insulation was during the test uh and on in the french you can see
00:39:41 bay uh cstb immediately above that from maxine bauer back to mr verlais on monday the 4th of july it's the middle email on the right-hand side
00:39:49 side uh middle on the left-hand side and our answer is the gap the air gap was 20 millimeters for all tests performed so far we used 30 millimeters of rockwool
00:40:03 which the response comes back from mr velay to maxim on the uh 4th of july 2011. okay thank you that's the top email um but it's the second from top email
00:40:20 reports
00:40:24 okay thank you i do think that this is how the panels should be tested because that's
00:40:29 that's how they are used best regards claude verlet
00:40:34 verlet just to be clear that the witness francaise
00:40:46 yes i could see that yes now i want to take you back into the classification report for test five a on rivet we saw before
00:40:55 before english version arc50358 page four french version arc underscore t4011 page four
00:41:03 four no conv
00:41:10 i just want to pop in and draw this to your attention on page four in both of those reports
00:41:24 the french one certainly is the right document
00:41:28 document uh the englishman oh i know why it's arc 50358 page four there and you can see there um it says
00:41:39 there and you can see there um it says under the field of application under the second heading this classification is valid for the following end use conditions second bullet point with a minimum air gap of 50 millimeters
00:41:50 gap of 50 millimeters can you see that application
00:42:01 yes i can see that you explain why this test of the rivet version of renibon 55pe
00:42:12 version of renibon 55pe was tested with a 50 millimeter air gap if
00:42:16 if in real life the end use was with a 20 millimeter air gap
00:42:28 renault
00:42:59 i've been between 2005 and 2011 six years elabs
00:43:10 test
00:43:17 and in 2005 what we're faced with the very first test commissioned by claude
00:43:26 [Music]
00:43:38 and what i believe is that his reflection his analysis evolved between 2005 and 2011.
00:43:49 is that something you know from your own knowledge or are you guessing uh
00:44:06 i'm not talking about facts it's a position to have in mind i see well let's um see if we can look into the
00:44:14 into the story a bit more deeply
00:44:18 i'd like to show you an email run in 2016.
00:44:25 2016. in english it's met 3064988 please at page 129
00:44:32 page 129 and the french is one page before that within the same exhibits
00:44:40 says
00:44:46 yes and uh an email from claude vale to julia cassianic uh and am i right in thinking that julia cassianic was a sales representative for
00:44:58 sales representative for uh arconic in 2016. don't sit on email
00:45:13 yes they appear to be discussing fire certification of a competitor and mr verlais says the top email at the top addressed to julie kasayanik on the 24th of june 2016
00:45:30 in english he says julie this is a certified
00:45:34 certified for pe not for fr we also had a class b at the time in pe but by quotes arranging unquotes the system to pass
00:45:46 system to pass so this report is really not a reference have a nice weekend um
00:46:12 they're talking about a competitor aren't they because i don't really understand the context for all these emails
00:46:19 emails no okay uh let's um
00:46:25 see if you can throw any light on it though
00:46:28 though he says we had a class b at the time in pe but arranging the system to pass now you can't help me you can't help me but i just wanted to know from you
00:46:39 but i just wanted to know from you whether you can how did mr verlais arrange your system to pass
00:46:45 to pass so as to obtain a class b
00:46:52 classes only
00:47:08 foreign i don't have an answer i could provide
00:47:14 did you know yourself by june 2016 that mr verle
00:47:19 mr verle his team had arranged a pe system to plot pass a test so as to obtain a class b
00:47:36 no no
00:47:45 test but what test exactly are they talking about that's what i'd like to understand yes well i i think we agree with you we would also like to understand just let me let me ask you this this
00:47:57 just let me let me ask you this this email that we're looking at is from a bundle of documents in what was called the unexhibited document bundle
00:48:04 bundle in
00:48:30 has exhibited this email or explained it in their witness statement
00:48:41 did you document when you were preparing your witness statement sorry sir the sound was very uh weird i
00:48:52 sorry sir the sound was very uh weird i couldn't hear what you said could you repeat what you just said i mean i can read it actually but um no i can't read it it's not on you repeat what you said sir please yes
00:49:05 you repeat what you said sir please yes did you see this document or review it when you were preparing your witness statement
00:49:21 no i don't think so
00:49:25 can you explain why no iconic witness as far as we can see has explained this document
00:49:49 [Music] no i couldn't explain that i have no idea about that just sitting there now reading the document maybe for the first time well i should ask you
00:50:00 should ask you is this the first time you've ever seen this email
00:50:08 [Music] yes once again i'd never seen it before just sitting there and looking at this email for the first time do you agree
00:50:19 email for the first time do you agree that it suggests that arconic had arranged a test so that it would achieve a class b result
00:50:50 [Music] concept i can only observe what's there would you agree that it looks from this that claude verlais
00:51:01 that claude verlais knew or suspected that reynold bond 55's euro class b
00:51:28 yes can you explain how that might have happened
00:51:36 no no can you explain how if that did happen the narcotic knew or suspected what i've just suggested archonic advertised and sold reyno bond
00:51:50 archonic advertised and sold reyno bond p e as a euro class b product for many years after 2005.
00:52:02 effective
00:52:18 [Music]
00:52:28 yes but there were various tests that were carried successively later on and that confirmed that class b
00:52:39 for pe are you sure
00:52:54 [Music] for the rivet system at least
00:53:02 and it's true i wasn't talking about cassettes
00:53:05 cassettes right
00:53:13 when you became managing director of our comic in august 2007 did you find out did you learn about the 2004 2005 tests that we've been looking
00:53:25 2004 2005 tests that we've been looking at
00:53:39 why did you not make it your business to understand thoroughly what fire tests and
00:53:47 and fire classifications supported the sale of renault bond 55 pe
00:53:54 the company
00:54:14 [Music]
00:54:51 [Music]
00:55:04 me [Music]
00:55:12 well my role was to stir forward the whole of the company or the company as a whole
00:55:18 whole and the section the group in within the company that was uh concentrating on architecture products renault barn for example constituted a relatively small
00:55:29 relatively small part of cells and a turnover and on top of that in 2007 we started a new production line concentrating on clock coating and we had to
00:55:43 clock coating and we had to launch that section where to stabilize the whole company and develop the sales of this new product
00:55:54 [Music]
00:55:59 the producer
00:56:06 [Music]
00:56:20 [Music] and in the same time in parallel i mean in a general perspective the product the p
00:56:27 p product if you looked at the competitors and what they were doing i mean it was a type of product which had a very wide distribution and it was the sort of standard product at the time
00:56:42 yes and so my question is when you took over as managing director at murxheim in august 2007 why did you not seek to understand thoroughly the fire testing and fire
00:56:53 thoroughly the fire testing and fire classifications which supported the sale of that product
00:57:15 because it wasn't my priority this is to do with fire safety and life safety why wasn't it your priority did you say
00:57:26 why wasn't it your priority did you say life safeties
00:57:38 provo [Music]
00:57:45 i think these words are a bit too strong
00:57:49 well what words would you pick like whose exact
00:58:03 [Music] the characteristics
00:58:19 [Music] more pre-occupied [Music]
00:58:27 [Music] the
00:58:27 the [Music]
00:58:34 latino well this pe product had a specific characteristic but which nonetheless made it the standard product on the
00:58:45 made it the standard product on the market at the time and i didn't concern myself particularly with the fire behavior of the product or the fire safety of the product
00:59:02 acceptance knowing that that standard product was accepted by most markets and most customers
00:59:14 when you took over as managing director at merck time in august 2007
00:59:22 did you not seek to find out how the cassette version of this widely used product had performed in any fire tests
00:59:55 did anybody come to you and tell you that although the rainer bond 55 pe product in rivet format i obtained a euro class b
01:00:07 rivet format i obtained a euro class b the same product in a cassette fixing format
01:00:11 format variant had failed a fire test and had no classification
01:00:26 of
01:00:30 [Music]
01:00:40 i don't believe so
01:00:43 how can you account or explain why nobody in the teams who knew about test 5b informed you of the fact
01:01:16 [Music]
01:01:29 well i believe once again and i don't know if i'm going to answer the question properly but i don't think that anyone really believed in the test that took place in 2005.
01:01:48 [Music]
01:01:59 [Music] and i'd say that really claudia really became very aware of this in 2011. [Music]
01:02:15 and about test 5b can we go to claude's witness statement in the english please at
01:02:20 at net5 53190 page eight paragraph 28 and in the french it's mbt3048342 at page
01:02:31 mbt3048342 at page 10 again paragraph
01:02:54 which paragraph are you referring to
01:02:59 28 indeed
01:03:17 when i started work at aap sas and for many years afterwards there was no real understanding in the market as to whether the fire performance of a rivet type system was preferable
01:03:28 preferable to that of a cassette indeed there were reasons for believing that since in the case of cassettes the edges of the panels were folded inwards the fire resistance test would be more favorable no matter what method was
01:03:39 favorable no matter what method was chosen
01:03:40 chosen in terms of an external heat source since
01:03:43 since the panel edges would not be directly exposed to that source however the decision to incorporate panels into a particular cladding system whether in rivet type form or as cassettes
01:03:52 cassettes was naturally taken by third parties and not by aap sas if we go down to page 10 please paragraph 35 and
01:04:05 paragraph 35 and page 12 in the french paragraph 35. mcdonald's i want to pick it up in paragraph 35 about 12 lines down in the french 11
01:04:17 about 12 lines down in the french 11 lines down in the english where he says
01:04:25 uh it's about two-thirds of the way through
01:04:28 through thus the 2005 results
01:04:33 exactly last the 2000s referred to in further detail
01:04:48 2005 results referred to in further detail in paragraphs 52 to 53 below differed between the rivet and cassette versions in that testing in a rivet system produced a b result
01:04:58 result whereas testing in a cassette system did not and indeed the indication given was that the result might be horror nonetheless we felt able to conclude that the product iev rb ipe had been shown to be capable
01:05:11 iev rb ipe had been shown to be capable as part of a suitable system of achieving en class b and we felt we could proceed on this basis further detail relating to this decision is provided in paragraph 53 below
01:05:22 is provided in paragraph 53 below now let's go down further to page 15 in the english paragraph 51 page 18 in the french paragraph 51.
01:05:33 i don't know if
01:05:41 51 he says the tests were undertaken in 2004 using grey green reign of 55 pe material
01:05:49 material and the test reports received from the cstb are exhibited at p41 i had expected that the rivet variant would perform perform worse than the cassette barrier due to the fact that the edges of the pe material would
01:06:00 that the edges of the pe material would be exposed all along the outer lines of the product whereas with the cassette form the fact that in producing the cassette the relevant fabricator folds over the edges means that the edges are less exposed in the finished product
01:06:13 the finished product and then a paragraph 52 and i'm sorry to read all this to you but it's important to think
01:06:17 to think as you can as can be seen from the test reports the rivet variant tested and achieved a classification of bs2d naught the classification report for the rivet variant is exhibited
01:06:28 variant is exhibited in contrast the first en1813823 tests tests on three samples are required to obtain a classification for the cassette variant was stopped prior to the end of the test and the
01:06:39 prior to the end of the test and the test report notes and he sets it out and he translates it the tests were stopped after 850 seconds the result's not usable to give an idea of the fire behavior of the product then he says this this therefore meant
01:06:51 then he says this this therefore meant that the test result was unclassified i understood that it meant that aapscs could not use the result to obtain a classification report because it does not reflect the
01:07:02 because it does not reflect the product's real fire performance i did not consult further with the cstb in relation to the matter and then i'll come back to that and then at paragraph 53
01:07:13 at paragraph 53 he says uh in the french 53 sweeto test on the right in the english over there following the incomplete test on the cassette variant in 2005
01:07:24 in 2005 the company including myself was struggling to understand why this result had been obtained the marketing team led by guy shideka at the time the technical team and management were all puzzled
01:07:35 and management were all puzzled competitors were not exhibiting any problems
01:07:37 problems no one in the industry seemed to have similar results in so far as i could tell it was very difficult in a closed market to look at competitors underlying data so all i could do was consult publicly
01:07:48 so all i could do was consult publicly available information such as information on other companies classification results and to rely on any conversations i may have been able to have with competitors i was also actively discussing the subject with eaa members
01:08:01 subject with eaa members and then no one really understood it it was not seen as a key issue or priority at the time and the role generally assumed by the technical team was to
01:08:09 was to inform and educate the management team as the company had no reason to suspect this was anything other than the rogue result
01:08:16 result standard classification test given the general view the cassette variable performed better than the rivet type due to
01:08:22 to fewer exposed edges the marketing team the technical team and management decided at the time that a classification in category b was satisfactory for aluminium composite material
01:08:32 material acm with a pe core and we did not consider completing further en 13501 part one testing on the cassette variant
01:08:40 variant at that time
01:08:44 now i've read that in full because verle's account there is central here it's important and i'm going to break those parts of what i've shown you up into bits so we can look at them
01:08:55 bits so we can look at them a little bit more closely with you and see if you can help us
01:09:22 now first i want to examine mr verde's assumption that rivet would perform worse than cassette do you follow examinations
01:09:47 says and i've shown you that he assumed uh that rivet ought to have performed worse than cassette because the pe on the edges would not be exposed to the flame
01:09:58 exposed to the flame with cassette or as they would with rivet
01:10:08 sorry could you repeat your question i'm sorry
01:10:11 sorry well claude verne's assumption is that rivet ought to have performed worse than cassette because with rivet the pe on the edges was exposed to the flame whereas with cassette it would not be exposed
01:10:28 the performance
01:10:40 now my question is did our comic understand to your knowledge as early as 2005 that exposing the pe at the edge of an acm panel was a fire risk
01:10:51 risk [Laughter]
01:11:10 m
01:11:25 worse than the cassette yes
01:11:31 how did iconic come to that understanding
01:11:44 [Music]
01:12:06 uh [Music]
01:12:15 [Music] conclusion but it's claude vale who drew that conclusion he thought that if the ph or p ed edward exposed to fire then um it would be it would be worse
01:12:27 then um it would be it would be worse are you drawing a distinction between mr verle and arconic yeah
01:12:38 [Music]
01:12:48 a
01:12:55 i believe that management at the time uh was uh
01:12:59 was uh basing themselves on his uh competency on his capacity are you aware of whether before 2005 there was any science any scientific
01:13:10 there was any science any scientific testing or data which would support mr verlais theory that rivet would perform worse than cassette because it had
01:13:21 worse than cassette because it had exposed pe edges
01:13:59 can we look at claude vella's statement again in the english at page eight in the french page 10 at uh paragraph 28.
01:14:08 28. examine what the position of the clause paragraph is
01:14:16 he says there and i'll read the english if you read the french to yourself please
01:14:20 please when i started work at aapsas and for many years afterwards there was no real understanding in the market as to whether the fire performance of a rivet type system was preferable to that of a cassette now
01:14:33 was preferable to that of a cassette now mr schmidt i i know it's difficult sitting there to understand mr verde's thinking but i want to know your evidence is mr is mr verne
01:14:45 your evidence is mr is mr verne correct that there was a general assumption that rivet would perform worse
01:14:49 worse or was there no real understanding which is it
01:14:54 mr
01:15:24 [Music]
01:15:49 [Music]
01:16:16 well as you said before i didn't think there were any studies carried out on that particular matter but i think that uh you can also see uh that uh claudia talked to lu asic
01:16:31 talk to the a e and he spoke also to people in other companies that were in the same position as he was so that's potentially how he reached his conclusions
01:16:43 reached his conclusions you're reading what he said in his statement that's not something you know from your own knowledge
01:16:55 no no no
01:17:08 no i'm trying to say that it's not based on studies that were carried out but i think that this is something that he was that he believed
01:17:19 no no can i ask you this um this theory of mr o'clock that rivet would perform worse than cassette because of its exposed edges
01:17:31 cassette because of its exposed edges have you seen any documentation or any data or any documents of any kind which would tell you that that theory was one actually held within our conic
01:17:44 was one actually held within our conic in 2005.
01:17:56 exposed
01:18:12 no because i wasn't involved in those tests at the time but when you came to be managing director in 2007 and later did you ever come across any information any reports data anything
01:18:24 information any reports data anything like that to which would lead you to think that that thesis was one held within arconic in 2005.
01:18:47 no no thank you mr chelsea i'm happy to take a break now i've got four or five more questions on this same topic but
01:18:55 topic but i can ask them just as easily after the break as before yes well in that case i think it would be sensible to take the break now
01:19:02 break now um so that's what we'll do mr schmidt we'll have a break uh we'll resume at uh 25 to four that's 3 35
01:19:13 uh 25 to four that's 3 35 and please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence while we are in the break all right we yes thank you very much
01:35:00 well welcome back everyone we are just about to continue taking evidence from mr schmidt but i think first i just checked that the interpreters are there and ready to continue we're there we're
01:35:12 and ready to continue we're there we're ready to continue stuff well thank you very much mr schmidt are you there miss you schmidt with edla i'm here thank you very much ready to continue are you
01:35:24 continue are you is it praying good thank you very much uh mr millet and when you're ready
01:35:34 mr german thank you um when the results of test
01:35:37 of test 5b that i showed you earlier came back the test having been stopped because of its fire performance it's right isn't it that arconic had real information
01:35:48 real information real data about how cassettes performed in a european fire test well confederate continental results
01:36:08 foreign yes it's likely do you know why our conic did not at that point
01:36:20 why our conic did not at that point conduct another test on reyno bond 55 pe in cassette variant excuse me
01:36:34 renault for my cassette
01:36:39 no no you know whether arconic asked any questions of the cstb about why the cassette variant of rainerbot 55pe
01:36:50 55pe performed in the way the test report showed
01:36:53 showed yes
01:37:09 no i don't know did you know that
01:37:14 pn13501 allowed a total of five tests to be undertaken where the highest and lowest recorded values would be excluded exclusively
01:37:32 thank
01:37:45 does it follow therefore that you can't help us explain why claude verde did not ask the cstb to perform
01:37:53 perform four more test tests on the cassette exclude the worst and get the result based on the middle three
01:38:25 no i want to ask you about what mr vale says about uh what was happening inside iconic can i take you to mr verlet's statement uh paragraph 53
01:38:37 mr verlet's statement uh paragraph 53 uh in the english uh uh at the bottom of page
01:38:42 page 19 or on page 19 and in the french uh on page 19 and i'll say sorry i've got this the wrong way around in the english version
01:38:53 wrong way around in the english version it's page 15 in the french version it's on page 19.
01:39:09 and if you look please at the paragraph 53 in the french
01:39:17 one he says in the english it's at the bottom of page 15
01:39:24 page 15 on paragraph 53
01:39:28 at the beginning of para53 in the french he says following the incomplete test on the cassette variant in 2005 the company including myself was struggling to understand why this result had been obtained the
01:39:40 why this result had been obtained the marketing team led by guy schiedeker at the time the technical team and management were all puzzled i showed you that before can i just ask you then why arconic
01:39:51 can i just ask you then why arconic didn't do any further testing in the light of the fact that they were so puzzled
01:40:20 no
01:40:26 does the fact that our comic did not investigate further tell us that you preferred to remain puzzled or iconic prefer to remain puzzled rather than actually get to the bottom of the
01:40:37 actually get to the bottom of the problem
01:40:37 problem and understand it
01:40:46 from preference
01:40:57 i couldn't tell you either
01:41:01 why can't you tell us hypocrisy
01:41:10 [Music]
01:41:23 because i wasn't involved in once again in those days i wasn't involved in that sort of
01:41:29 sort of discussion and debate or this discussion of test results did there come a time after those days once you've become managing director or president that you
01:41:41 managing director or president that you did discover that arconic had allowed itself to remain puzzled on this matter and not investigate it fully escalated
01:42:06 [Music]
01:42:26 uh
01:42:30 [Music]
01:42:53 [Music]
01:43:01 well once again i mean
01:43:05 it's not the sort of information i was given and the test the result of test wouldn't come back to me and they didn't come back to me before the grenfell fire and it was not until
01:43:17 grenfell fire and it was not until 2011 that for the first time i had some information on what was happening with reynold bond p
01:43:29 so is the answer to my question no don't establish
01:43:33 establish my question no
01:43:41 so what was your question i'm sorry after you had become managing director or president of arconic did you later discover that arconic had allowed itself to remain
01:43:52 allowed itself to remain puzzled about this matter rather than investigating it and getting to the bottom of it the new managing director president
01:44:23 no no
01:44:33 can we go back then to what you said about the
01:44:38 about the european aluminium association or the eaa
01:44:43 you mentioned before um
01:44:51 association i want to show you claude verle's witness statement on this i showed it to you earlier
01:44:58 earlier uh just for the reference it's paragraph 53
01:45:02 53 page 15 in the english page 19 in the french
01:45:05 french and he said that he was actively discussing this with the eaa members the eaa is the european aluminium association isn't it
01:45:28 sorry what was your question sir my question
01:45:31 question uh is can you confirm that eaa is the european aluminium association
01:45:38 [Music]
01:45:42 aluminium really really yes yeah was it right that claude verlet to your knowledge held some roles in the association
01:45:56 functions
01:46:09 i'm not certain
01:46:23 i'm not certain you may have been a member of a technical sub-group or commission but i couldn't uh assert that in any way
01:46:34 okay did arconic know that claude verlet was proposing to discuss the fire performance of raynor bond pe with eaa members
01:46:47 a proposed discrete performance [Music]
01:46:52 organization
01:47:00 yes very likely who knew that within iconic
01:47:04 iconic it was kill savvy
01:47:17 i think it was the commercial directorate did did you know or anybody else know with whom within the eea
01:47:31 with whom within the eea mr verley was having these discussions escobar
01:47:48 no i
01:48:02 m no and i don't know who were the members of va at the time
01:48:14 if claude verle is right in his assumption that rivet would perform worse than the cassette then his discovery from test 5b that cassette
01:48:25 his discovery from test 5b that cassette performed worse than rivet in the european test would have gone strongly against
01:49:05 yes we could imagine that yes and he would have wanted to have alerted his fellow industry members to what was a very important potential issue of life safety
01:49:17 important potential issue of life safety and fire
01:49:18 and fire do you agree on imagine a franchise
01:49:24 industry question
01:49:40 as far as
01:49:44 now we found no records at all as far as life safety is concerned
01:49:50 yes
01:49:54 i don't necessarily agree well do you know whether test 5b was discussed with any members of the industry
01:50:08 or anybody
01:50:16 i don't know now can we go back to
01:50:28 now can we go back to the wording that the cstb gives for test 5b this is back in 5b at arc three 50536 at page seven and in the french uh m e t triple zero
01:50:41 and in the french uh m e t triple zero five three one five eight at page 77.
01:50:49 come on let's pin
01:51:04 yes uh and i just want to ask you
01:51:12 to look please uh at the comments in bold again on the right hand side in the french
01:51:17 french and then on the left-hand side in the english
01:51:28 tests were stopped after 850 seconds the results are not usable you give an idea of the fire behavior of the product now i want to show you what claude verlet says about those words
01:51:40 verlet says about those words please can we go to claude verle's witness statement in english page 15 paragraph 52 french page 19 paragraph 52.
01:52:00 expressions
01:52:13 sorry can we have the references please mr miller yes uh claude vale english met3053190 page 15 and in the french met 30 48342
01:52:25 page 15 and in the french met 30 48342 page 19.
01:52:28 paragraph 52 in each case and he says there i want to show you just the passage we saw it before six lines done in the english
01:52:45 six lines done in the english but after the translation he says this therefore meant so this is after the quotation he says this therefore meant when he wanted
01:53:05 the test result was unclassified then he says
01:53:08 says i understood that it meant that aap sas could not use the result to obtain a classification report because it does not reflect the product's real fire performance now
01:53:19 the product's real fire performance now on those ones
01:53:23 it looks from what he's thought that the the report meant that it didn't reflect the product's real fire performance
01:53:41 real fire performance how can you can you explain
01:54:18 can we just start again four lines up from the bottom of the french paragraph 52 and four lines up from the bottom of the
01:54:29 and four lines up from the bottom of the english paragraph 52. i'm going to read it again in english after the quotation it says this therefore meant that the test result was unclassified
01:54:40 result was unclassified i understood it meant that aap sas could not use to obtain a classification report because it does not reflect the product's real
01:54:51 it does not reflect the product's real fire performance and my question mr schmidt is can you explain how mr verlai understood that aap
01:55:05 understood that aap should not use the results to to obtain a classification report because it did not reflect the product's real fire performance
01:55:16 escape
01:55:30 food
01:55:36 could we go back to the original sentence on the previous document and let's uh look at that that's in the french at met three zeros
01:55:57 this is test 5b words in bold character
01:56:06 let's have it yes thank you yeah [Music]
01:56:09 [Music] let's see in french the test of 850 seconds now what the test report says is the results are not usable but give an idea of the
01:56:21 are not usable but give an idea of the fire behavior of the product
01:56:29 what i want to understand mr schmidt is how mr verleigh read those uh as meaning does not reflect the real fire performance of the product
01:56:40 performance of the product that's
01:56:54 foreign
01:57:06 there's no explanation
01:57:17 okay well there's no explanation i could provide but nonetheless what it says is that the result that were obtained were not usable
01:57:27 and when the certificate says that the results give an idea of the fire behavior of the product it is surely telling the reader that
01:57:41 it is surely telling the reader that they can rely on the results to show what rayner bond 55 pe cassettes will do
01:57:47 will do in a real fire come to the
01:58:19 uh doesn't reflect the product's real fire performance uh he's just wrong about that isn't it
01:58:30 performance do you produce
01:59:00 well i think it's very ambiguous there are two parts in that sentence which both
01:59:04 both say different things and there is a lot of interpretation that was made afterwards
01:59:12 let's be clear what these words mean isn't that the result can be ignored but that the result can't be ignored
01:59:44 that's not the way that i interpret it it simply says that the results can't be used
01:59:51 what about the rest of the sentence please mr schmidt
01:59:56 schmidt
02:00:10 witness it says the results are not usable i i want you to look very carefully please with me
02:00:17 with me at the words after may in the french may don or but give in english but give an idea of the fire behavior of the product
02:00:35 those words can't be sorry you cut up cut out you those words can't believe
02:01:14 it's just a kind of guidance as far as the behavior the way in which it's written it's not definitive definitive or not mr schmidt this report is telling you how cassette format will
02:01:27 how cassette format will behave in a fire uh who's expected
02:02:00 do you accept that the words in the second part of the sentence which in english read but give an idea of the fire behavior of the product tell you that although the tests
02:02:11 tell you that although the tests tell you that this test result shows you how
02:02:47 give an idea of how the product could behave in the case of a fire yes why do you accept that that's what it
02:02:58 why do you accept that that's what it means
02:03:06 yes let's go to uh mr verley's uh statement of paragraph 35 page 10 in the english m e t 3 0 4 8 3
02:03:19 in the french sorry that's the french m e t 3 0 is 4 8 3 4 2 page 12 and in the english it's at page
02:03:28 at page 10. the english reference is met3053190
02:03:40 i want us to pick up paragraph 35 with you
02:03:43 you like afterwards
02:03:47 and in the english it's uh four lines from the bottom of the paragraph where he says nonetheless we felt able to conclude
02:03:58 to conclude and in the french four lines up from the bottom it starts one do you see that uh
02:04:08 english paragraph or part of that paragraph there he says nonetheless be able to conclude that the product
02:04:16 product i.e the rb ipe had been shown to be capable as part of a suitable system of achieving en class b and we felt we could proceed on this basis
02:04:27 could proceed on this basis further detail relating to this decision is provided in paragraph 53 below it's the second time i've shown you that passage
02:04:38 passage now i want to go back specifically to paragraph 53 uh in the english
02:04:50 document page 16 in the english same french document page 19 please paragraph 53 and there you know page
02:05:03 and there you know page in the english very top of the page in the english it was not seen as a key issue and in the french
02:05:14 it's uh
02:05:28 yes i see it i see it it's in the middle mr schmidt could read the rest of that paragraph himself i'll read the english [Music]
02:05:42 verde says it was not seen as they learned it
02:05:46 just follow with me in the french i'll read it
02:05:50 no sorry says the witness
02:05:55 it was not seen as a key issue or priority at the time and the role generally assumed by the technical team is to inform and educate the management team as the company had no reason to suspect this was anything other than the rogue
02:06:07 this was anything other than the rogue result of a standard classification test and given the general view that the cassette variant would perform better than the rivet type due to the fewer exposed edges the marketing
02:06:18 to the fewer exposed edges the marketing team the technical team and management decided at the time that a classification in category b was satisfactory for adam what was it material acm with a pe core and we did not consider
02:06:29 pe core and we did not consider completing further en 13501.1 testing on the cassette variant at that time my question on that passage is
02:06:40 my question on that passage is did our conic make a positive decision to say
02:06:44 to say that all reina bond p e was class b regardless of whether it was rivet or cassette case decision definitely
02:07:10 set
02:07:22 i just like to reread the text once more yes we can see
02:07:52 the
02:07:57 yesterday the decision was to
02:08:06 know
02:08:20 me
02:08:34 also
02:08:40 so what was the question the question was
02:08:44 was did arconic make a positive decision to say that all reno bond p e was class b regardless of whether it was rivet or cassette
02:08:57 [Music] that's how i interpret
02:09:02 it well i'm sorry forgive me i'm not asking you to interpret mr verne's evidence but i'm asking for your evidence do you know
02:09:12 know mr schmidt did arconic make a positive decision
02:09:44 foreign
02:09:48 no i don't know you know who the individuals in management were who made that decision to which mr burleigh referred him to
02:10:13 no now
02:10:17 he refers to a rogue result uh in his paragraph 53.
02:10:32 i want to ask you uh what was the basis on which arconic thought that the cassette test 5b produced a rogue result
02:10:54 of
02:11:01 [Music]
02:11:18 he explains it in the rest of the sentence where he says that he that it was thought from a general generally that the uh cassette variant would be more efficient than the rivet set variant
02:11:31 well let's break this down was it to help us rather than interpreting mr verde's evidence i want to i want your evidence
02:11:40 evidence maybe you can't help us
02:12:00 was test 5b uh a test which showed which produced data which uh was rogue compared with other test data for cassette variant
02:12:16 other test data for cassette variant testers
02:12:32 m
02:12:44 [Music] um
02:12:50 no i imagine not because i think as far as i know it's the first time that a test of those kinds were carried out indeed and would it follow
02:13:01 carried out indeed and would it follow from that answer that uh arconic regarded test 5b as a rogue result because it diverged from what
02:13:13 because it diverged from what mr verle describes as the general view that cassette variant performed better than rivets
02:13:28 generally
02:13:43 general point of view was the conclusion that the result that's curve i'm so sorry excuse me do you want to continue
02:13:56 yes i'm sorry too
02:14:02 [Music]
02:14:16 [Music]
02:14:25 tests or the results of various tests with them because they're mentioned above
02:14:31 was the conclusion that the result was rogue or aberrant in the french based simply on arconic's general expectation that cassette ought to have performed better than rivets
02:14:52 new system 50.
02:15:14 [Music]
02:15:20 uh
02:15:26 well it's difficult for me to really sort things out i mean
02:15:32 iconic general expectations general expectation not necessarily i mean because they're we're looking at a mixture of eaa and our chronic
02:15:48 what was the point of testing cassette if in the end you were going to prefer your general expectation to the actual test result
02:16:02 dcd
02:16:12 in fact mr schmidt is it not the case that our colleagues view that the test result test 5b was a rogue no more than an untested assumption
02:16:30 it is
02:16:43 not confirmed yes surely the only reasonable course for arconic to have adopted if it genuinely did think
02:16:54 adopted if it genuinely did think that test 5b was aberrant a rogue was to retest cassette and re-test cassette until you had enough test data demonstrating that the failed test was
02:17:07 demonstrating that the failed test was indeed a road
02:17:12 test
02:17:42 but you have to think about it within the context of 2005 in the market at the time
02:17:46 time what is it about the content measure and the market at the time
02:17:54 it's the time please
02:18:08 is [Music]
02:18:17 as i said yes extra extra tests would have been
02:18:23 have been what would should have been carried out
02:18:28 do you agree that for our colleague to prefer to proceed on the basis of an untested assumption of fire safety in the face of a
02:18:40 of fire safety in the face of a failed test was potentially extremely dangerous
02:19:32 uh
02:19:37 [Music]
02:19:48 [Music] well i don't think the standards were treated in the way that we deal with them today because the european standards have just been established but there are also some standards which related specifically for
02:20:00 standards which related specifically for countries
02:20:01 countries so i think in 2005 um the situation wasn't the same as it as it is today mr schmidt can i can you just help me with this
02:20:12 with this one possible view of the way that iconic responded to that test we're discussing is that it was irrational and
02:20:23 is that it was irrational and irresponsible not to carry out further tests
02:20:27 tests to establish whether the cassette system performed as badly as the first test suggested
02:20:34 suggested what what would you say about that also schmidt is
02:21:08 [Music] we
02:21:13 we [Music]
02:21:18 yes as i said i think that extra tech tests should have been carried out thank you very much merci beaucoup
02:21:29 yes mr chairman uh
02:21:34 it's right isn't it that the
02:21:38 fact of filed failed test 5b was never disseminated to any of our comics customers
02:21:52 lisa
02:22:05 i don't know it was never disseminated at any stage to the bba
02:22:20 is yes good parts i believe so
02:22:28 you agree with me that it wasn't communicated to the bba or do you think that it was communicated it was that like maxline
02:22:48 and in fact do you accept that if the grenfell tower of fire had never happened
02:22:52 happened nobody would ever have known about the failed test
02:23:02 acceptance
02:23:16 is we yes
02:23:21 we yes do you accept that test 5b was arconic's deadly secret music's accepting
02:23:34 [Music]
02:23:41 why not
02:23:55 [Music]
02:24:00 because once again the product that was sold is not dangerous in itself it is
02:24:15 it is it did have some risks but which were dealt with differently according in different countries and according to legislation
02:24:40 um [Music]
02:24:55 risk i won't give an example or parallel with other products that we use every day but nevertheless there are many things that we do use every day which do give rise to certain risks
02:25:12 rainer bond 55 pe and cassette variant was as dangerous in itself as that 5b test showed
02:25:36 is
02:25:44 [Music]
02:25:53 the test shows that the product is flammable but not necessarily dangerous right and what european country would allow
02:26:07 cassette variant which had tested and shown those test results to be used above 18 meters
02:26:18 so
02:26:32 m
02:26:38 [Music]
02:26:46 um
02:26:52 the countries whose legislation which is still operational accepts that product
02:27:00 control only by controlling risks in a different way
02:27:13 it's right isn't it that our colleague continued to sell rene 155 pe in the cassette variant
02:27:25 in the uk and in other parts of europe
02:27:32 even though test 5b uh showed that the one test ever done on that variant has failed spectacularly you accepted
02:28:08 [Music]
02:28:41 [Music]
02:29:18 [Music] uh
02:29:23 uh [Music]
02:29:31 well spectacularly i don't know i don't know but
02:29:34 know but um i had to have it i i'd have difficulty in trying to establish a parallel between a flat product and a cassette
02:29:42 cassette uh for a long time this product has been used in france it's still classified ma and it's still sold by colleagues and it's still used in the building industry so it's up to the
02:29:53 building industry so it's up to the people using it to to make those decisions
02:29:59 mr schmidt why did arconic never provide clear warnings to the end customers
02:30:06 customers about how people rene bond 55 pe in cassette variant would perform in the event of a fire given what failed test
02:30:58 a um
02:31:02 well if we go back to 2005 i'm i don't know
02:31:06 know but uh what i can say that from 2014 arcade very regularly communicated with its
02:31:13 its customers on that situation
02:31:18 we will come to that in due course
02:31:22 mr chairman i think uh it's been a long day and
02:31:25 day and although i'm near the end of this topic i haven't quite reached it but i think it would be sensible to take a break now if that's convenient to the well i was going to uh ask you mr millet i think
02:31:34 i think um mr schmidt has had a long day today and uh it would be fair for everyone to call halls at that point so mr schmidt we're going to stop there
02:31:45 we're going to stop there for the day
02:31:55 thank you we'll resume at 10 o'clock british uk time tomorrow
02:32:03 and please remember what i've said to you many times now about the importance of not discussing
02:32:18 all right so we'll see you again tomorrow
02:32:21 tomorrow ten o'clock tomorrow please thank you
02:34:02 you