Morning session examining Arconic's Claude Schmidt on false fire classifications in BBA certificates, failure to update Euro class ratings after test failures, responsibility for misleading UK market about Reynobond PE 55 cassette variant fire safety, and knowledge of product performance.
00:00:05 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear evidence further evidence from mr schmidt of iconic he's giving his evidence as you know
00:00:16 evidence as you know through an interpreter so the first thing i must do is to make sure that the interpreters can uh see and hear us as they should be uh yes i can see and hear you
00:00:30 uh yes i can see and hear you good thank you very much and your colleague uh mrs uh del mar rice is she there too she's having
00:00:39 hello sorry
00:00:43 do we have can you hear me can you hear me now hello good morning yes good morning yes i can hear you very clearly thank you thank you very much well then
00:00:52 well then if you're ready to continue we'll go uh to
00:00:56 to see mr schmidt next fine
00:01:01 so i'm going to ask mr schmidt are you there
00:01:04 there can you see me and can you hear me
00:01:20 yes good morning i hear you well thank you very much indeed now before we before we continue your evidence
00:01:26 evidence i just need to cover the usual uh housekeeping arrangements
00:01:39 can you confirm that you are again alone in the room from which you're giving evidence
00:01:51 yes thank you can you confirm that you you don't have any documents or other materials with you
00:02:03 yes i confirm it thank you very much and can you also confirm that your mobile phone
00:02:08 phone is in another room and that you don't have any other electronic device with you which is capable of receiving messages
00:02:18 positive electronics
00:02:26 yes i confirm thank you very much we shall have a short break halfway through the morning at about 11 15.
00:02:46 all right thank you very much then i shall ask i shall ask mr millett to uh put some more questions to you hello
00:03:00 yes yes mr miller good morning mr chairman thank you good morning
00:03:12 now mr schmidt i'm going to put a number of simple general questions to you
00:03:30 okay okay do you agree as a fact that reynold bond 55 with a standard pe core in cassette
00:03:41 standard pe core in cassette fix variant never achieved
00:04:23 55 with a standard p e core in the cassette fix variant never achieved a euro class b
00:04:34 never achieved a euro class b classification
00:04:40 um
00:04:54 do you agree as a fact
00:04:58 that when it was tested under the european test standards in 2004
00:05:06 the cassette fix variant of raynor bond p
00:05:11 p e 55 failed and achieved no classification
00:05:22 european
00:05:36 yes
00:05:41 [Music]
00:05:49 to be clear the tests were done at the end of 2004 and the reports published in january 2005.
00:06:04 jean do you agree as a fact that when reynold bond
00:06:11 bond 55 pe was tested in 2010 it achieved a euro class e
00:06:33 really yes
00:06:36 do you agree as a fact that no document ever presented by arconic to customers ever drew attention
00:06:48 to customers ever drew attention to the fact that the rhinobond 55 with a pe core in cassette fix achieved a euro class e excuse me
00:07:14 oh
00:07:27 i'm not sure that i'm able to say that
00:07:46 i do think that in the years 2014 to 2016 clients were informed
00:07:57 do you agree as a fact that renault bond 55 standard pe rivet fixed variant achieved a european class b classification in 2005.
00:08:25 sorry when on dummies time 2005.
00:08:33 yes do you agree as a fact that the bba certificate used in the uk market
00:08:45 certificate used in the uk market did not distinguish between the rivet and cassette fix variants in terms of fire classification
00:08:56 classification
00:09:02 in the difference
00:09:20 yes do you agree that on the contrary the bba certificate used in the uk market
00:09:31 used in the uk market presented both the rivet and the cassette
00:09:35 cassette fixed variants of reynobon 55pe as a class b
00:09:48 presenter
00:09:55 class b
00:10:16 [Music]
00:10:28 yes but i would like i'd like to add that that was for a specific colors
00:10:35 i'm going to ask the question without reference to the colors do you agree to schmidt that the bba certificate used
00:10:47 that the bba certificate used in the uk to sell reyna bond ee cord 55 presented both the rivet and the cassette fixed
00:10:58 both the rivet and the cassette fixed variants
00:11:24 class b
00:11:45 [Music]
00:12:04 [Music]
00:12:07 i have a certain doubt about this question because there's something i don't understand previously it was said that one wasn't going to be referring to cassettes or rivets
00:12:22 do you agree that even between the years 2014
00:12:26 2014 and 2016 the bba certificate used by arconic to sell radio bond 55 pe through no distinction
00:12:38 pe through no distinction through no distinction between the rivet and the cassette fixed variants
00:12:44 and presented both as having euro class b
00:13:05 really yes do you agree mr schmidt that that was a false statement so far as concerns the cassette fixed variant
00:13:17 cassette fixed variant exclusive mr smith
00:13:30 yes can you explain why that false statement was made question
00:13:58 [Music]
00:14:12 sorry but on the bba certificate there was also mentioned me made of a class zero which is a a british standard
00:14:24 sorry he said english standard actually correct english yes never mind that i'm asking you about the european standard and i'll ask the
00:14:35 the european standard and i'll ask the question again you've accepted that drawing no distinction between the rivet and cassette variants in terms of the european fire
00:14:46 in terms of the european fire classification was a false statement
00:14:56 cassettes i would like to know please why that false statement was made
00:15:14 [Music]
00:15:19 once again i cannot say because i wasn't involved in drawing up the bba certificate you are here giving evidence on behalf of our comic is that right
00:15:38 yes are you telling me that arconic does not know
00:15:42 not know why the false statement that you have accepted which was made in the bba certificate was made yes
00:16:11 [Music]
00:16:24 yes that was the responsibility responsibility of the technical service and i don't know again why uh that was not communicated correctly
00:16:33 correctly can you so circa
00:16:54 what i do understand is this information was identical to the original certificate which was uh drawn up in 2007.
00:17:06 [Music]
00:17:25 [Music]
00:17:31 and at the time according to the technical team they thought the test in 2005 no sorry 2004 was not representative
00:17:44 uh
00:17:58 foreign
00:18:11 [Music] uh
00:18:25 and i believe having discussed this with claude veller after the fire at brentwood
00:18:29 brentwood that we were not aware of what was uh written within the uh fire test
00:18:49 what was written within the bba certificate with regard to fire tests european fire tests
00:19:01 i don't understand
00:19:08 what was it that you were not aware of
00:19:21 the certificate
00:19:30 [Music]
00:19:36 a [Music]
00:19:48 [Music] the
00:20:00 so the bba certificate after discussing with claude varela after the grenfell fight towards verlette was not aware of the reference that fire references made within the bba certificate
00:20:18 are you telling the inquiry that paul verla told you that he did not know of the references to european class b
00:20:30 to european class b in the bba certificate
00:20:46 b
00:20:50 [Music]
00:20:59 are you able to explain why our comic did not correct the false statement in its bba certificate about euro class b relationships
00:21:12 about euro class b relationships sorry sorry esque pokemon [Music]
00:21:28 uh
00:21:42 is
00:21:53 well i think i already answered the question i get the impression that we weren't aware of it
00:22:00 do you agree as a fact that in february 2014
00:22:06 2014 the standard rene bond 55 pe rivet fix variant was retested and achieved a euro class e
00:22:17 and achieved a euro class e excuse me
00:22:22 uh
00:22:38 forgive me interrupting this is stephen hoffman on behalf of iconic i'm not sure that
00:22:42 that what mr millet is now putting forward is actually correct and i apologize um therefore for interrupting but it seems to me that um this is a situation in which i have
00:22:53 um this is a situation in which i have no alternative well mr hoffman um let's just let's just see now you have interrupted which is
00:23:02 which is uh well as it is um maybe mr millet will just consider his question
00:23:10 question if he thinks it's appropriate i think he must ask it
00:23:15 may i just tell the witness what mr hochman just said mr hawk banner hopefully
00:23:35 say something before anybody else says anything please there's a question of order yeah uh i i'm
00:23:42 uh i i'm surprised well you have the floor mr miller
00:23:46 miller just a moment while i'm speaking um you uh heard i imagine what mr hoffman said
00:23:55 the suggestion is that the question you were putting to the witness was factually
00:24:02 factually inaccurate i suggest that you just check your notes uh if there's any doubt about it the way to resolve it may be to put the
00:24:14 the way to resolve it may be to put the document to the witness so we all see it let me try the question a different way my my
00:24:22 my my difficulty here is that throughout this inquiry
00:24:26 inquiry uh i have and others have have been able to examine witnesses free of interruption in real time from any of either the rlrs or any other core participants
00:24:37 participants i'm afraid this is a regrettable first there is a method for communicating with me at speed to correct any errors and it's been used very effectively throughout this inquiry for many months
00:24:48 throughout this inquiry for many months this is not a reason to depart from that right now
00:24:51 right now let's say if mr hoffman wishes to correct me and i am by no means infallible then he is by
00:24:58 by he was not welcome to do so through the usual channels and the usual channels work very well for this purpose it is not to be done in live form i i would i would respectfully ask uh
00:25:09 i i would i would respectfully ask uh well the witnesses all right well we don't want to spend a lot of time having a protracted debate about
00:25:16 about uh procedure mr hoffman it there is an arrangement in place under which you can communicate with council to the inquiry if you think there's been an error that needs correcting it would be
00:25:29 needs correcting it would be preferable if you were to use that arrangement because as this has shown any direct intervention by lawyers for the witness disrupts the
00:25:40 lawyers for the witness disrupts the proceedings to an unacceptable degree unless it's absolutely essential so i would ask you in future to take the make use of the arrangements that are already in place now having said that
00:25:52 already in place now having said that mr millett would you like to ask your question again and we'll see if we can get back on track let me try it a different way more general and create difficulties mr schmidt do you
00:26:03 create difficulties mr schmidt do you agree
00:26:05 agree that during 2014 the latest and at the latest by december 2014
00:26:13 2014 the standard reynobond 55 pe rivet fix was tested and achieved a euro class
00:26:22 c
00:26:46 yes do you agree there's a fact that the marketing literature was never changed to show that downgrade of euro class
00:26:58 to show that downgrade of euro class for the pe rivet fixed variant
00:27:04 calculated
00:27:18 foreign
00:27:32 oh
00:27:43 documentation no longer made any reference to the rivet p version of the product
00:27:58 do you agree as a fact that during 2014 and 2015 and indeed until after the grenfell tower fire the bba certificate
00:28:11 tower fire the bba certificate of 2008 was still in circulation in the uk market unchanged
00:28:28 certified
00:28:36 [Music]
00:28:42 are you telling me that arconic does not know the answer to that question
00:28:56 um
00:29:03 [Music]
00:29:10 no because for me the bba certificate was online and anyway was accessible through the bba website
00:29:21 are you saying that the bba certificate was changed so that it would show the new classification of the rivet fixed variant with the class c
00:29:38 exchange
00:29:51 that's not what i meant are you able to explain
00:29:55 explain why the bba certificate was never changed
00:29:59 changed to reflect the new fire classification for pe rivet fix as a class c
00:30:20 see
00:30:42 [Music]
00:30:48 0 eta determiner i believe i think it's because we thought
00:30:57 thought we felt that the class zero was a determining class
00:31:09 do you accept as a fact
00:31:13 let me try it differently do you know whether
00:31:16 whether rainer reynabond 55 pe in either the cassette fix variant or the rivet fixed variant was ever tested under the british standards which might lead
00:31:29 standards which might lead to class zero
00:32:05 [Music]
00:32:14 well what i understand about that classification is that it's a test that takes no account of the way the product is used and mounted and it only tests the product itself
00:32:37 [Music] um
00:32:52 and i know that there was a clear test that was carried out in 97 and it showed that a product called prb554
00:33:03 a product called prb554 was classed 0.
00:33:14 [Music]
00:33:26 [Music] and i also know
00:33:45 okay so i also know that products that were tested in 2006 renault bond 53 which had less metal but more of the p core
00:33:56 less metal but more of the p core also obtained a class zero in 2006.
00:34:04 it don't
00:34:17 so the technical service could uh be led to think and didn't think that the
00:34:24 the product could uh globally get the class zero
00:34:32 uh
00:34:37 [Music]
00:34:43 and i'd like to add also that i believe i think that this classification is comparable to the m e uh class in france
00:34:53 m1 m1 not me m1 sorry
00:35:09 [Music]
00:35:22 i mean in france uh the reference and the tests were very similar
00:35:30 similar and the results were identical and the products
00:35:33 products the tests are carried out on the product itself and do not take any account of the system itself
00:35:56 it's correct is it not that reyna bond 55 pe was never tested under the relevant british standards to achieve a class naughty
00:36:24 okay yes it was in 1997. are you saying that the product tested in 1997
00:36:36 in 1997 was rene bond 55 pe
00:36:52 yes yeah in fact it was reyna bond 160 pbe wasn't it not reyna bond 55 pe me offensive
00:37:04 not reyna bond 55 pe me offensive city renault
00:37:13 well it's exactly the same thing
00:37:47 [Music] um of course well in fact i mean the product that was sold at the time had been manufactured in the u.s and that uh
00:37:59 that uh label rb 160p but in fact i mean the makeup the components in the product were totally identical to what we started producing in france from the year 2000.
00:38:15 notre dame
00:38:23 and i can confirm and reassert again that according to the designation we have in maximum it was
00:38:31 was exactly similar to rb 55ba
00:38:40 you weren't responsible for rene bond at all in 1997 were you me
00:38:54 no no you didn't become responsible for rayner bond
00:39:01 bond at all until august 2007
00:39:12 yes when did you first compare that the product tested in 1997 with the product being sold as rayna bond pe
00:39:23 bond pe 55 you know
00:39:39 thank you
00:39:58 [Music]
00:40:27 okay so the product was manufactured in the u.s
00:40:30 the u.s but it was made with metal from merxime that had been coated it was an aluminum a product that was coated in versailles sent to the us
00:40:41 sent to the us then it was uh transformed with coils and then it came back to us in maximum and then it was stored there
00:40:54 [Music]
00:41:04 and in 99 or maybe 2000 there was an investment agreement and then at that time we decided to do a technology transfer
00:41:15 decided to do a technology transfer from the us to maxime
00:41:28 do you accept as a fact do you act that the pe cassette fixed variant
00:41:36 variant of reiner bond 55 pe was sold for use on grenfell tower on the basis of a statement that that
00:41:47 on the basis of a statement that that product
00:41:47 product complied with english building regulations for use over 18 meters excuses
00:41:58 renault bond consumption
00:42:14 m
00:42:25 could i listen to your question again sir of course do you accept as a fact that pe cassette fix
00:42:32 fix variant of reynobond 55pe was sold for use on grenfell tower on the basis of a statement that that
00:42:44 on the basis of a statement that that product complied with the english building regulations for use over 18 meters
00:42:51 meters excuse me
00:42:56 period
00:43:24 foreign
00:43:46 [Music] no i felt the product was suitable and in accordance with british legislation as i understood it at the time
00:44:06 um no i'm sorry in fact i didn't know the english legislation
00:44:19 psycho uh
00:44:33 but what i understand now is that there were different ways of being in agreement with english legislation
00:44:49 and the product class zero could be used
00:45:02 but it wasn't for us to carry out the choice
00:45:16 do you accept as a fact that the pe cassette variant of rainer bond 55
00:45:24 bond 55 was sold for use on grenfell tower on the basis of a statement that it complied with the uk legislation english legislation for use over 18 meters
00:45:36 meters do you accept that as a fact excuse except commitment
00:46:10 no i don't accept that statement so are you telling the inquiry mr schmidt
00:46:17 schmidt that arconic never made a statement that renault bond 55 in cassette variant
00:46:30 was suitable for use above 18 metres
00:46:54 foreign
00:47:04 i'm sorry the question was long could you repeat it please since the witness i'll try it a different way of course do you accept that reynold bond pe 55 cassette fixed variant
00:47:17 55 cassette fixed variant was sold for use on grenfell tower on the basis of a statement that it complied with english building legislation when in fact it didn't
00:47:29 remember
00:47:35 reynolds
00:47:50 foreign
00:47:58 [Music]
00:48:10 [Music]
00:48:19 no i mean once again we are not the people who carried out the choice so i cannot accept that statement
00:48:28 is it not the case that arconic made the choice
00:48:32 choice of how to represent the fire safety of reynobond 55 pe
00:48:46 representatives
00:48:58 yes
00:49:01 as the president of arconic between 2012 during the period 2012 to 2016
00:49:14 during the period 2012 to 2016 do you accept responsibility for the sale of rayna bond p 55 p e in cassette variants
00:49:28 says
00:49:43 the president of arconic during the period 2012 to 2016 do you accept responsibility for the sale of reyna bond 55 pe in cassette variant for use on
00:49:56 55 pe in cassette variant for use on grenfell tower
00:50:24 foreign
00:51:04 [Music] um
00:51:18 we
00:51:28 once again i find it a bit difficult to understand the question but nonetheless iconic did sell
00:51:35 sell a product a pe product for grenfell tower
00:51:39 tower but it's not arcane who made the choice of selling that specific product
00:51:47 do you accept responsibility for the statements made by arconic to the uk market about the fire safety
00:51:59 to the uk market about the fire safety of reyna bond 55 pe and cassette variant
00:52:33 [Music]
00:52:37 i mean i'm sorry but i find the question difficult to understand i mean renault bond
00:52:42 bond uh p cassette p was class zero
00:52:48 sorry renault bond p is sorry renault bond p
00:52:52 bond p was a class zero
00:52:57 i'm a connection still
00:53:12 a
00:53:19 [Music]
00:53:30 yes as far as i know i mean the bba certificate but in any case it's something that i didn't know at the time but i found out later on that
00:53:40 that certificate gives information on different types of file test reaction for the product
00:54:25 but that certificate also says that the usage you're going to make of the product has to be confirmed by tests that are determined
00:54:36 by tests that are determined depending on what usage you want to make of the product
00:54:45 [Music]
00:54:50 please
00:55:01 [Music]
00:55:15 so there are a number of points that lead the reader to carry out potentially extra tests or comp or compartmentalize or look at the various sequences
00:55:34 look at the various sequences mr schmidt i'm going to press you for an answer please to my question
00:55:44 and i'm going to ask you one more time do you accept responsibility
00:55:53 as president at the time the statements made by our comic the uk market about the fire safety of rayner bond pe 55 in cassette variant
00:56:07 responsibility
00:56:14 um
00:56:28 my
00:56:38 we specifically talked about or communicated about the cassette variant
00:56:47 as the senior person at our college at murksheim
00:56:51 murksheim do you accept responsibility for the sale of rainer bond 55 pe to the uk market on a false basis with european fire classifications
00:57:10 responsibility
00:57:24 as a company accept responsibility for the sale of rayleigh bond 55 pe to the uk market on a false basis
00:57:38 accept
00:57:50 the transcript hasn't got the end of my english question on a false basis as to its european fire classifications
00:58:01 vis-a-vis classification uh european i'll ask the question again because it got it broken does iconic as a company accept
00:58:14 does iconic as a company accept responsibility for the sale of reynold 55 pe to the uk market on a false basis as to its european fire classification
00:58:34 responsibility
00:58:48 european
00:58:56 yes on incomplete information yes
00:59:00 what information did you not have that made your information incomplete
00:59:15 [Music] uh
00:59:34 [Music] in in emotional power so normal european different
00:59:46 [Music]
00:59:52 what i meant to say was that the information that was on the bba certificate was not false but it did not go into detail it didn't mention uh according to um the european standards
01:00:03 standards the uh uh uh different reactions to fire whether we were talking about a riveted system or a cassette system
01:00:13 mr schmidt you accepted earlier that a certificate was false or became false because it did not show the downgrade from european class b or p e
01:00:25 from european class b or p e to a c
01:00:39 you accepted at least we can check the transcript you accepted that it was false because it represented cassette fixed variant as having achieved euro class b when in fact it had failed the tests it
01:00:52 when in fact it had failed the tests it was very accepting video
01:01:06 my question is does our colleague accept responsibility
01:01:22 foreign
01:01:29 [Music]
01:01:56 [Music]
01:02:24 no maybe i didn't understand the question properly i don't think i accepted the fact that the statements uh didn't finish his sentence i don't think we commit communicated specifically with regards to cassettes in the bba certificate
01:02:36 in the bba certificate so i i don't understand
01:02:47 very well uh mr chairman i'm informed that there may have been a translation issue about a question involving 18 meters at the break we can look at that
01:02:59 meters at the break we can look at that and then perhaps reformulate it if we need to but i'm going to move on now if i may yes we'll have a look at it over the break if you would just a minute to turn now mr schmidt to the question
01:03:10 to turn now mr schmidt to the question of iconic
01:03:11 of iconic sales to the uk all right
01:03:23 yes please look at your second witness statement
01:03:27 statement at page 16 in the french met three zeros four eight three three one page 16.
01:03:42 paragraph 35
01:03:48 uh and the english please page 13. if we could please have displayed at the same time
01:04:08 and if you would reach yourself please paragraph 35 in the french mr schmidt well i'm going to read the english equivalent
01:04:22 have both displayed please
01:04:45 thank you we have the french on the left and the english on the right paragraph thirty-five you say in respect of sales of acm
01:04:59 you say in respect of sales of acm aap sas never had a large market in the uk
01:05:03 uk estimated at approximately 10 percent for example i understand having considered sales information that in 2000 aap sas sold sixteen thousand four hundred and seventy two
01:05:14 thousand four hundred and seventy two square meters of renee bond into the uk for use in architecture this figure fluctuated in subsequent years increasing to a maximum of approximately 79 000 square meters in 2008 but always remained as a
01:05:27 meters in 2008 but always remained as a small proportion of the uk market but just pausing there mr schmidt is it correct that the uk market was not a particularly important market
01:05:38 was not a particularly important market to our comic exclusive department
01:05:59 [Music]
01:06:16 it was important for our clinic because it allowed us to increase our volume of sales but as far as uh the actual uh importance within our turnover it wasn't
01:06:28 importance within our turnover it wasn't so
01:06:31 really with your high witness statement paragraph 36 which in the french begins this
01:06:37 this uh can we have both up again please only shift you say the figures referred
01:06:48 only shift you say the figures referred to above after sales of renault bombed pe
01:06:51 pe as in that period that was what the uk market demanded and just looking at that you say when you say
01:06:59 you say the uk market demanded pe do you mean that customers routinely chose it
01:07:07 chose it in preference to fr uh
01:07:26 foreign
01:07:30 yes did that demand exist because the regulatory regime in the united kingdom was less restrictive than in
01:08:11 [Music]
01:08:29 so i believe that depending on the different countries choices were made with regard to regulation in order to be able to
01:08:34 able to control the risks
01:08:41 [Music]
01:08:58 [Music]
01:09:11 and in some cases uh there were more radical choices that were made i mean already at the time in an analysis that i actually made afterwards i saw that in russia they very quickly forbade
01:09:23 in russia they very quickly forbade um
01:09:30 from memory they forbade pe in favor of effort
01:09:44 between 2004 and 2007 i can't remember precisely but that's what i've got in mind
01:09:56 and other countries made the choice to try to control those risks master those risks in a different fashion
01:10:05 let me try a slightly different way how can you account for the fact that the uk market demanded pe and routinely chose it
01:10:16 pe and routinely chose it in preference to fr for that feature
01:10:25 system preference
01:10:42 uh
01:10:46 [Music]
01:11:07 i can't explain it i think the clients considered that the product was okay as far as the registration was concerned they could use it because of the regulations that were
01:11:18 operational at the time
01:11:22 so is the difference between the uk and say poland
01:11:28 the regulatory difference which explains why more people in the uk bought pe than they did in poland
01:11:54 yes i believe so yes gentlemen we're going to
01:11:58 going to uh we're still very much in the same topic but it's a different document we're going to and it's 11 17
01:12:07 right thank you well that's probably a convenient point at which to have a break mr schmidt i said we'd have a short break in the morning and this is where we're going to take it all right
01:12:21 so may i please intervene just to clarify something with you i fully appreciate it you do need to
01:12:29 uh i would like to do so sir if you'll allow me on that you would but do you need to yes i think i do so
01:12:35 i do so yes yeah well go on uh i i apologize again for interrupting but i i do want to clarify something with you what happened earlier on when i intervened before
01:12:46 intervened before and and as mr miller pointed out it's the only time that i've intervened as far and i i hope i won't have to in future but what happened was that that mr millet made a mistake
01:12:57 millet made a mistake in the question that he was putting and we know that because he subsequently corrected himself when he put the question again he corrected himself and he and he um changed the content of
01:13:09 and he and he um changed the content of the question now so if we were in the same room as we would be
01:13:14 would be but for the pandemic i would have been able to
01:13:17 able to point this out to you and to him and the matter would have proceeded perfectly smoothly
01:13:23 smoothly it seems to me with the utmost respect not inappropriate for counsel on behalf of
01:13:30 of the company and the witness concerned to be able to make that sort of correction at the time rather than doing it by email later uh when um when the moment has passed
01:13:41 uh when um when the moment has passed well
01:13:42 well may not be but all we're doing at the moment is trying to justify your action earlier on um i explained to you that we have a system which so far has worked perfectly well it seems to me you could easily have
01:13:53 it seems to me you could easily have corrected mr millet by email and i'm sure he would have changed his question so um it's very important that with so many people involved and with a witness giving evidence
01:14:04 giving evidence uh through an interpreter that we keep the interruptions to his evidence to an absolute minimum all right
01:14:20 i'm not sure it's going to help anyone for us to have a a discussion about that at this stage um instead we're going to have a break now we've just lost a couple of minutes of that can't be helped
01:14:31 that can't be helped um as far as you're concerned uh mr schmidt
01:14:35 schmidt um we're going to resume your evidence please at
01:14:38 please at 11 35
01:14:45 and please remember not to speak to anyone about your evidence over the break all right so we'll see you in 15 minutes thank you very much
01:29:43 welcome back everyone we are now ready to resume
01:29:46 to resume hearing from mr schmidt i'm going to start by checking that the interpreters can
01:29:52 can hear and or see us as necessary i can see you and i can hear you sir thank you very much and your colleague yes i can see you and hear you very good
01:30:03 yes i can see you and hear you very good thank you very much well now we better make sure we've got mr schmidt there
01:30:07 there mr schmidt please say that yes mr i'm here says mrs mr schmidt good thank you very much and you're ready to continue are you if that prayer
01:30:27 mr schmidt i asked you a question earlier
01:30:32 earlier and there was an interruption from our comics council um i want to get back to the question and put it again to you
01:30:41 slightly different wording
01:30:46 questions
01:30:56 do you agree do you agree that by february 2014 arconic made a decision to classify
01:31:07 arconic made a decision to classify both p e rivet and p e cassette to euro class e escorted
01:31:39 can we look at your second witness statement please
01:31:56 update and i'd like to look with you at paragraph
01:32:00 paragraph 92.
01:32:10 i haven't got it in french the french french version will be met three zero four eight three three eight page thirteen
01:32:24 seconds
01:32:32 yes it is 92 isn't that correct can you look at that and i will
01:32:44 correct can you look at that and i will read the
01:32:45 read the uh the english says given aap sas's role that is a manufacturer and supplier of unfabricated acn panels it would not have considered
01:32:56 acn panels it would not have considered whether the use of rayno bond 55 pe cassette panels as part of the facade of grenfell tower would comply with relevant building regulations or associated guidance including in respect of fire safety it
01:33:09 including in respect of fire safety it would not be possible for the company to consider such matters as it would would not know exactly how its product was to be used including what other materials its product would be used in combination with for the same reasons to go over
01:33:23 with for the same reasons to go over neither could arconic form a view
01:33:27 as to whether the design of the facade of the tower complied with the relevant building regulations of associated guidance
01:33:33 guidance so far as fire safety or any indeed any other aspects were concerned aap sas did not therefore rely on any advice from third parties about such issues
01:33:42 issues as they were not and would never be within its remit to consider aapsas is simply a supplier one component product which may be used in the facade of a
01:33:53 which may be used in the facade of a building
01:33:54 building now i just want to concentrate with you on uh those last four lines in paragraph 92.
01:34:09 that it does not know how its product would be used for any given construction project is
01:34:29 [Music]
01:34:42 [Music]
01:34:47 well in a general way no arconica isn't uh fearful this but it doesn't mean that
01:34:53 mean that they are not cases and specific project when we do know is arconic's position that it did not know
01:35:03 know what building regulations were required in every country in which it supplied its products escrow positions
01:35:26 is our connie's position that it was not obliged
01:35:31 obliged to know what building regulations were required for every country to which it supplied its products
01:35:48 yes would you not expect an iconic sales force working in a particular region or country to have at least a basic
01:36:01 or country to have at least a basic understanding of what could or could not be sold
01:36:05 be sold in that region or country
01:36:22 m
01:36:27 yes basic understanding yes
01:36:32 i heard evidence from deborah french that in fact she knew that the renault bond 55 pe cassette product
01:36:45 55 pe cassette product was going to be sold for use on a high-rise residential building
01:37:07 was her knowledge consistent with arconic's
01:37:11 arconic's approach or policy in that respect
01:37:32 uh [Music]
01:37:46 approach is that we didn't have a detailed knowledge of the regulation and therefore that's very much in line with what we were doing at the time
01:37:59 i think but i think you accept that there were occasions when archonic iconic salesforce would understand what particular project the product was
01:38:10 what particular project the product was going to be used for it was accepted
01:38:34 yes do you accept that although our comic might not know all of the local fire regulations in any particular country
01:38:46 in any particular country as a manufacturer it should know how its product was going to perform in a fire
01:38:54 fire excuse except
01:39:21 testing in the period 1997 to 2006.
01:39:37 now just so that we're talking about the same thing make it clear for you did you know that in england and wales a
01:39:49 did you know that in england and wales a product can be called a class naught if it achieves certain results under certain british standards
01:40:06 and
01:40:26 could i listen to the question again please of course um were you aware that in england and wales
01:40:34 wales a product can be called class naught if it achieves certain results under certain british standards
01:40:44 classifications
01:40:47 and functions
01:40:52 yes did you know that those standards were tests all right mr miller just a moment i think the witness wants to add something to his answer say
01:41:19 we're talking about the period 97 to 2006.
01:41:23 2006. when did you first become aware of a national standard classification
01:41:38 classification
01:41:58 um [Music]
01:42:03 [Music] i would like to make sure i don't give a full statement but i really believe that only learned about it after the grenfell fire
01:42:13 so is your evidence that before 14th of june 2017 you were not aware of national class naught
01:42:25 or class 0
01:42:46 yes i think so yes
01:42:55 so does that mean that your understanding that renault 55p e had achieved class naught
01:43:06 had achieved class naught was an understanding you came to after the grenfell tower
01:43:16 comprehension
01:43:22 like classification
01:43:31 yes personally yes
01:43:35 is it right in the early 2000s you the general manager in charge of reynold lux
01:43:48 general manager for the projects
01:43:58 i was in charge of production responsible for the production
01:44:03 i wasn't a general manager in your work in charge of production with raino lux did you come to have some understanding of the british standards
01:44:15 british standards which would allow a classification of
01:44:45 [Music]
01:45:00 [Music]
01:45:14 i mean i took part in uh an edit once uh i know did carried out by bba i mean there but in fact i mean that's something that was followed by the quality team but nonetheless i was
01:45:27 quality team but nonetheless i was involved and i would be
01:45:35 [Music]
01:45:48 and i don't believe that there was once even once
01:45:51 even once a discussion on fire regulation during these audits uh
01:46:02 [Music]
01:46:18 [Music]
01:46:23 the process that was followed by the auditor consisted mainly in asking and in trying to understand whether our processes had involved and for example whether we
01:46:34 for example whether we introduced new shades new colors can i just ask you we have seen a bba certificate for raino lux issued in 2009
01:46:49 for raino lux issued in 2009 that says it has class naught my question is were you involved in the testing of reynolds to class naught
01:46:57 naught that is shown
01:47:33 [Music]
01:47:41 no once again i don't think i was involved at all in these audits or tests
01:47:47 i'd like to look now then at the fire tests carried out in 1997 in warrington in england
01:47:58 i'm sorry please translate should i go regardless
01:48:05 i'd like you to go please and be shown claude vale's witness statement in the french at page 11 and that's
01:48:16 met3048342 m80 met3048342 page 11 paragraph 34. if we can have that up at the same time
01:48:27 if we can have that up at the same time please as is english statement uh met 305 [Music]
01:48:34 [Music] at page nine in both cases paragraph 34.
01:48:44 this is
01:49:08 from the start of my employment at aapsas
01:49:11 aapsas we had the benefit of the results of the 1997
01:49:15 1997 warrington fire testing and the unambiguous class naught outcome of the of those tests
01:49:22 tests see paragraph 46 below for further detail
01:49:25 detail of these tests
01:49:40 arc underscore t4010 that's the translation of the english which is arc50357
01:49:51 which is arc50357 please and if we can have both of those up at the same
01:50:02 yes and you'll see the french on the left of the screen mr schmidt and the english on the right and if you look at the very first line
01:50:14 and if you look at the very first line of the paragraph at the top of the page or in the main text it says summary of juarez numbers
01:50:36 yes can we go to page 3 please in both documents
01:50:49 and in paragraph 5 we see the results that are set out under bs 476 part 6 and bs 476 part 7. do you see that
01:51:04 says
01:51:12 just under it it says opinion it says in english and read the french under avi it says we consider the results of the tests detailed above
01:51:23 tests detailed above demonstrate that the product as tested complies
01:51:26 complies with the requirements for class naught as defined in paragraph a 12 b of approved document b fire safety to the building regulations 1991.
01:51:41 yes yes uh can we now go back please to page two of this document in both
01:51:48 both the translation and the english
01:51:56 under section 3 you can see it says description of test specimens and in the second paragraph
01:52:03 paragraph under that section it says this if you look at the second paragraph the product was renault bond rb 160 pe
01:52:14 rb 160 pe a composite panel having an overall thickness of four millimeters and comprising a core of three millimeters thick low density polyethylene 920 kilograms per cubic meter
01:52:27 920 kilograms per cubic meter with a coated aluminium sheets bonded using
01:52:30 using utilizing adhesive system to both faces
01:52:40 yes thank you it goes on to say in the case of the face exposed to the heating conditions of the test front face the coated aluminium sheet comprised 0.5 millimeter thick cremate
01:52:53 comprised 0.5 millimeter thick cremate pre-treated aluminium sheet coated on the exposed face with one coat of a pvf2 70 kyan r500 coating color reference silver anodic 906 coil coated to a dry film
01:53:06 anodic 906 coil coated to a dry film thickness
01:53:06 thickness of 25 microns yes from me appears in both of these test reports
01:53:17 test reports now can we look at mr claude's verley's statement
01:53:21 statement mr verley's statement again please this time at page 17 in the french and page 14 in the english french reference met 30s 48342
01:53:35 french reference met 30s 48342 page 17 english met three zeros five three one nine zero page fourteen in both paragraph 46
01:54:07 three zeros four eight three uh four two
01:54:16 zero eighty four eight three
01:54:27 i think it's the wrong page i think it should be page 17.
01:54:38 which paragraphs we're on page 17 on the french in the french that's that's it now he says there uh in paragraph 46 in relation to rene
01:54:50 in paragraph 46 in relation to rene bond's peace
01:54:53 in relation to rainbow pe testing in accordance with bs 476 parts six and seven
01:54:59 seven was undertaken in 1997 by warrington fire
01:55:03 fire the two test reports of the summary report confirming the product met the class naught criteria and exhibited a p19 this testing predated my time with aap sas but i understand it was carried out on
01:55:14 but i understand it was carried out on rainer bond pe manufactured in the u.s because at that time murxein did not yet produce it i understand that these two tests are product tests similar to the french m1 testing as
01:55:27 similar to the french m1 testing as opposed to systems tests now i have a number of questions about what mr vale says there for you first mr schmidt is it correct
01:55:41 first mr schmidt is it correct that the pe product tested in 1997 was manufactured in the u.s
01:55:59 yes and he says that the testing predated his time with aap sas it's also the case that it predated your time uh with aap sas at least in respect of
01:56:12 uh with aap sas at least in respect of that product
01:56:30 yes i was already in the company but i was absolutely not looking dealing with reena but renault bond so you did not know what the raw materials that made up
01:56:54 um
01:57:20 that's what i was trying to explain before the break we were using lacquered metal that was then sent to the states
01:57:31 the metal it's a transformer panel composite
01:57:51 panels in france and where stored and to be sold
01:57:58 and you didn't know what the raw materials
01:58:02 materials comprising the core of the panels was
01:58:18 [Music]
01:58:25 i think that eastman used a technical um [Music]
01:58:29 [Music] um vocabulary they talked about ldpe
01:58:38 and where did they get the ldpe from it ldpo
01:58:49 it ldpo [Music]
01:59:01 i have no idea what's the recipe the recipe
01:59:05 recipe that's the right word for ld for the ldpe used in those panels
01:59:14 santa
01:59:19 [Music]
01:59:38 well what i understand is ldpe is a raw material there's no mixture or mix
01:59:48 what was the process by which the core was made out of ldpd
02:00:06 the material was bought in a pellet form or grains
02:00:32 [Music]
02:00:38 um through a tool
02:00:51 voila that's it what control
02:00:58 did aap sas have over the process of obtaining the pellets and then extruding them through this tool you refer to
02:01:10 tool you refer to controllers
02:01:36 [Music]
02:02:02 if you talk about pure quality control we didn't have on-the-spot control when they were actually producing our products
02:02:12 he said
02:02:25 [Music]
02:02:44 [Music]
02:02:50 i don't think there were regular visits in the states well certainly not in 97 but in 98 we had a few people who spent a few weeks in the states to understand the various processes
02:03:08 [Music] no i visited the site and the line
02:03:25 it's right i think as we've seen that the reynobond pe 160 had a very specifically defined coating of pvf2 at a 70
02:03:37 of pvf2 at a 70 kynar 500 and a coating specific thickness that wasn't the same was it uh as it was for raynaud 55p
02:03:54 thanks
02:04:07 [Music]
02:04:21 55 defines a product whatever the color
02:04:28 the truth is isn't it is that reynobond 160pe was a different product from rainerbond55pe
02:04:51 or else i don't understand the question but no not at all it was identical
02:05:01 yes can you explain why
02:05:11 so that could possibly clarify matters
02:05:15 yes go ahead
02:05:46 we're talking about the thickness of the product and the four is talking about the overall thickness of the product
02:05:58 a little bit more exterior [Music]
02:06:09 and the external coating of the product is made up of paint which of course again can be of different qualities
02:06:18 just just help me with one thing mr schmidt if reynold bond pe 160 tested in 1997 and obtaining a class naught was exactly
02:06:29 and obtaining a class naught was exactly the same product as reynabon 55 pe can you tell me why the bba certificate did not say that rayner bond 55
02:06:40 did not say that rayner bond 55 in pe had achieved a class north classification
02:07:10 uh [Music]
02:07:33 i can't explain it i believe the request for the bba figured was made in 2007 and i don't understand and i can't explain why reference wasn't made to it very well
02:07:44 reference wasn't made to it very well and let's go back to the furley's witness statement please uh in the french uh as i think we've got on the screen paragraph 47
02:07:55 we've got on the screen paragraph 47 there it is and the english also on paragraph 47 he says there i can confirm that there should be no material difference as regards fire performance between a translucent and a black pe
02:08:08 between a translucent and a black pe core
02:08:09 core i also had no reason to suppose that there was a material difference in fire performance between the pe panels manufactured in the us which were tested at warrington in 1997 panels
02:08:20 tested at warrington in 1997 panels which were then known as rb160pe and those which were subsequently marketed as rb55pe now first of all do you know
02:08:31 now first of all do you know why the name of the product as it appears was changed from prb 160 pe to rb 55 pe
02:08:48 id
02:09:06 [Music]
02:09:19 [Music]
02:09:28 i'm not sure but i think rb160p was probably the name that was used in the u.s and so when we began to produce the produce the product in france we decided to have our own uh our own code or way of calling it
02:09:43 our own code or way of calling it so do we take it from that but the change in the name um was because you had started producing the product yourself as opposed to
02:09:54 the product yourself as opposed to having it produced in the united states
02:10:26 um yes i'm not 100 sure but i do believe that possibly rb55 of that code was was established when we started producing in france
02:10:37 producing in france now we have seen no record showing that our conic did any tests uh to class naught under the national classification in england and
02:10:49 national classification in england and wales
02:10:50 wales on rayner bond pe once our conic started producing it in france is that correct
02:11:06 organizational national
02:11:21 yes that's also what i understand why is that why did arconic not do any fresh class naught tests once it had started producing the rhino bond
02:11:35 started producing the rhino bond pe product itself in france
02:11:56 [Music]
02:12:01 i have no answer to that question frankly i have no idea
02:12:09 [Music]
02:12:28 however once again in 2006 there were tests on rb 33 where the thickness of the metal was it was less
02:12:35 was less thick and they also obtained class zero
02:12:40 yes i'm asking you about reynabon pe 160 for the moment never mind 2006 and 33. we can come to that just my question again why did our conic
02:12:54 just my question again why did our conic not conduct any new fresh class zero tests once it had started producing the raynay bond pe product
02:13:03 product itself in france
02:13:11 in fact
02:13:28 do you agree that it would have been a good idea for arconic
02:13:35 arconic to do a fresh class naught test under england england and wales national standards
02:13:43 standards to see whether the new product being produced in france achieved class naught in the same way that pe one six had in 1997.
02:14:11 yes do you agree that when mr verlais says he had no reason to suppose that there was no material difference between reynold bond 160 pe
02:14:24 reynold bond 160 pe and raynor bond 55 pe that that is not a good reason for not carrying out a test yes
02:15:00 [Music]
02:15:15 [Music]
02:15:34 additional so once again the real technology transfer
02:15:39 transfer took place between the u.s and europe and so the products products remain similar the products were established on the same basis but i do uh
02:15:49 uh think that uh potentially some extra tests could it would have been merited
02:15:58 can we look at claude vale's witness statement please in the french uh at page 28 paragraph 74
02:16:08 and in the english at page 23.
02:16:21 we have the french there and the english is at page 23 met 305 nine zero page twenty three thank you
02:16:33 nine zero page twenty three thank you very much and it says in the first line there
02:16:36 there to my knowledge there have been no substantive changes to the composition of reyno bond pe since 2005 say for a change to the color of the core which occurred on 4th of may
02:16:48 of the core which occurred on 4th of may 2015
02:16:50 2015 now just focusing on the first part of that sentence was there a substantive change to the composition of rene bond pe in 2005.
02:17:12 uh
02:17:21 [Music]
02:17:38 well i think that you'd have to refer to the question that was asked of him i don't think there were any changes between 2000 and 2005 but you would have to look at what he was asked
02:17:49 well from your knowledge can you tell me whether in 2005 itself there were any changes i'm asking you
02:18:08 take it from me that these 1997 warrington test reports to class naught on rayna bond 160 pe
02:18:20 on rayna bond 160 pe were not provided to the bba when it came to assessing raynaud panels for certification
02:18:41 my question is why why not
02:18:58 i don't know
02:19:02 i now want to move uh forward to 2003 mr schmidt and look at the warrington fire tests on reynold fr core done in that year
02:19:14 fr core done in that year all right
02:19:33 that's where we go um now just before i do i have a technical clarification to ask of you
02:19:42 excuse me is it right that um l d p e
02:20:00 low density polyethylene polytherin
02:20:05 yes now looking at the tests in 2003 under the british standards um is it right that these were done on a panel with a pvdf
02:20:17 panel with a pvdf coating in metallic grey with an fr core
02:20:28 it is
02:20:41 could you just repeat the last bit of it with a metallic coating and a grey coating and an fr core
02:20:56 uh
02:21:19 i don't have details with regard to that test now
02:21:23 test now i'll just put the test reports up on the screen
02:21:27 screen just so you can see them i'm not going to ask you detailed questions about them we have copies of test reports dated 12 september 2003 and there is first of all the part 7
02:21:40 and there is first of all the part 7 report
02:21:42 report bs 476 report at bba by 6053 in the french arc underscore
02:21:53 in the french arc underscore t4016
02:21:56 t4016 let's have that up please first of all both of those at the same time
02:22:04 this is
02:22:20 can we have those up please
02:22:24 and the one on the left is in english uh juarez number one three uh two three one seven uh and take it from me the date of that is 12 september 2003 and the french
02:22:35 is 12 september 2003 and the french is on the right uh uh have you ever seen that document before do you think exclusively
02:22:45 i don't believe so uh and the second report under bs british standard 476 part 6 is at bba 6050 and the french is at arc
02:22:57 is at bba 6050 and the french is at arc underscore t4015
02:23:02 amethyst
02:23:15 could you repeat the references please mr miller yeah six zeros five zero and the french arc underscore t four zeros one five
02:23:50 uh and uh let's just take uh an example of one of these go to page two please don't let something like that an
02:24:01 and you can see on page two uh that this is the part seven test uh for uh the fr product if you look under section three
02:24:12 product if you look under section three description of test specimens in the second paragraph it refers to the product being reynabond 55 fr you see that
02:24:21 an example by example
02:24:40 is
02:24:54 uh
02:25:04 yes sorry i mean you said something but which reappears lower down so it's fine pvdf now um these reports were submitted to the bba
02:25:18 these reports were submitted to the bba do you know can you help me did arconic think
02:25:22 think at the time that these tests showed that fr core first class
02:25:36 is
02:25:56 there might be a problem of translation so maybe
02:26:00 so maybe sir you could repeat your question did our colleague believe that these tests showed that fr core had achieved class naught
02:26:10 f classification
02:26:18 um for this product yes i think so now we haven't i think seen a summary report stating whether or not these tests
02:26:29 tests actually achieve national class naught did you know that uh
02:26:46 no uh now because you referred to uh rene bomb 33 in one of your answers earlier i think i now need to ask you
02:26:58 earlier i think i now need to ask you some questions about reinaborn 33
02:27:12 do you have any personal knowledge at all mr schmidt about the testing of uh reynabon 33
02:27:23 of uh reynabon 33 in 2006
02:27:28 personnel
02:27:40 no not at all i wasn't involved in these tests at all and is it correct that rainer bond 33 is a a signage product it's not an architectural product like rainer bond 55 is it
02:27:56 is
02:28:08 yes essentially yes and by 2006 if you've told us arconic was already producing radio bond 55 pe at merckxheim wasn't it
02:28:21 produced
02:28:25 maxime
02:28:28 yes whatever testing was done to the best of your knowledge on renault bomb 33 in 2006 cannot have been relevant uh to the fire classifications for renault bond
02:28:41 classifications for renault bond 55 pde
02:28:45 tests
02:29:03 [Music]
02:29:10 yes i mean the the makeup of the product is very
02:29:13 is very close very similar but nonetheless they're two different products yes except that you can't substitute a fire test from one product to another product and just read them
02:29:25 to another product and just read them across
02:29:26 across it was accepted
02:29:34 to
02:29:46 [Music]
02:30:05 well again i'm not specialized enough to be able to answer in detail but nonetheless i mean i know that the two products
02:30:13 products have a different thickness of metal that constitute them and therefore from a technical point of view as a technician i would think that they require specific tests
02:30:29 can we then look at the thick test for reyno bond fr under the british
02:30:40 for reyno bond fr under the british standards
02:30:44 the test
02:30:51 and this i can take shortly um do you remember or do you know that reyno bond uh 55 acm with an fr core was tested in 2006
02:31:06 core was tested in 2006 and according to a a summary report from september 2006 had met the requirements of class naught now
02:31:26 um
02:31:51 no i no longer remembered and any way i would like to remind you that at the time i wasn't involved in reno bond at all but essentially i don't remember i didn't remember
02:32:03 didn't remember indeed and let me just read the references to those reports into the record if i may so that people can look at them these test reports are at ex0401967
02:32:15 are at ex0401967 and ex0401938 with a summary report at
02:32:22 ex0401958
02:32:30 now i want to ask you
02:32:36 about uh our colleagues decision to perform tests under the european testing regime en13501
02:32:48 testing regime en13501 can we start please mr schmidt by going to claude verlet's witness statement in the french at any three zeros four eight three four two page seventeen paragraph forty eight
02:33:01 page seventeen paragraph forty eight we've looked at this before
02:33:37 now he says that i'll read in the english if you read to yourself with the french please don't say thank you
02:33:45 by the end of 2004 i was aware of the recently introduced en 13501 part 1 reaction to fire testing regime
02:33:54 regime these were the first steps in the industry for a new way of fire testing because historically the tests required for national class standards such as the french m
02:34:01 french m standard and the uk bs 476 part six and seven testing were tests undertaken on products whereas the en five one three five zero one part one testing was undertaken
02:34:12 one part one testing was undertaken on a system as described further below i understood that over time it was likely that the en regime would become the standard test in the eu
02:34:22 the eu and would be used to obtain certifications that were becoming desirable or even required from a sales perspective in more countries for that reason i suggested to management they should test the reynobond pe product under this
02:34:35 test the reynobond pe product under this regime
02:34:36 regime and subsequently arrange for the with the cstb
02:34:39 the cstb for this to be carried out
02:34:42 now he says that he suggested to management to have the pe product tested
02:34:55 now at the end of 2004 mr schmidt you i think we're still um
02:35:01 helping to produce raynaud's
02:35:06 participatory production
02:35:10 uh
02:35:22 [Music] um
02:35:38 uh [Music]
02:35:53 uh i think uh the production of renault bonds started around the year 2000 then from the year 2002 or maybe 2003 i was the person in
02:36:04 2002 or maybe 2003 i was the person in charge of production and therefore i was responsible for the production the logistics anything that had to do with it were you part of the management
02:36:15 were you part of the management that mr verlai refers to in the last sentence in that paragraph
02:36:34 um
02:36:47 yes i mean i can't be really specific but it's true that at the time i was part of the management of the company
02:37:01 so i was part of the management committee
02:37:11 [Music] proposition
02:37:21 but i don't think that this proposal had been discussed with all the members of the
02:37:27 the management committee
02:37:37 [Music]
02:37:49 and also over that period 2005 2006 besides my activities here in mexico i was also very busy preparing an mba
02:38:05 [Music] so it's very likely that i was far less involved in all sorts of decision
02:38:16 involved in all sorts of decision within the company
02:38:20 were you to the best of your memory part of the management that made the decision to test reyno bond pe under the european regime
02:38:40 legislation
02:38:48 no i don't think so do you know who made the decision to have renault bond 55 pe tested
02:39:06 no i don't know was the decision to conduct those tests one which claude verlet could make himself
02:39:15 himself or would he need authority from more senior executives so tip the decisions
02:39:34 [Music] no i believe he must have mentioned that to his own management
02:39:40 do you know whether mr verlay decided the parameters of the test such as color fixing and configuration of the test system or rig
02:39:55 [Music]
02:39:59 et cetera
02:40:16 [Music]
02:40:27 [Music] well i believe that he probably discussed the whole thing with the test body he was going to have the test carried out by but he probably
02:40:39 carried out by but he probably gave an orientation to the decision
02:40:43 but you don't know yourself no now we can see in this statement here that mr verlais says that obtaining
02:40:55 here that mr verlais says that obtaining certifications was desirable or even required from a sales perspective
02:41:14 uh
02:41:28 is
02:41:40 the three last lines of 48.
02:41:48 could i see the sentence just before i was just trying to show you it's the bottom of
02:41:52 bottom of the previous page in the french at the bottom of paragraph 48
02:42:12 [Music]
02:42:23 and then
02:42:37 second half of that sentence which in the english says uh certifications that were becoming desirable or even required from a sales perspective
02:42:49 required from a sales perspective in more countries
02:43:07 could you tell us uh was the decision to test uh renault bond uh pe driven solely by our comic sales and marketing
02:43:20 our comic sales and marketing or was it driven by a genuine interest in understanding the fire performance of this product
02:43:58 [Music]
02:44:10 [Music]
02:44:31 so it's very hard to be very specific in my answer but if i look at uh what claude vale is saying the way he expresses himself it seems to be saying that in the future
02:44:42 it seems to be saying that in the future the commercial teams will
02:45:04 in 2005 i'm not sure that that demand was emerging from the commercial people right i'm sorry to interrupt your answer mr
02:45:15 i'm sorry to interrupt your answer mr schmidt i i don't want you to interpret mr mr verleigh's witness statement i want you to tell me from your own knowledge if you can from your own knowledge if you can
02:45:26 knowledge if you can whether the decision to conduct these european tests was driven by commercial reasons or by a genuine interest in understanding reynabon 55 pe
02:45:38 interest in understanding reynabon 55 pe better
02:45:39 better now
02:46:07 i don't have any idea about it well mr valley also says a little bit earlier in the same paragraph that
02:46:18 paragraph that we look at it remember led halfway down in the english in paragraph 48 and if we
02:46:29 in the english in paragraph 48 and if we go to the previous page in the french
02:46:36 please
02:46:42 he says it in the last three lines in the french and he says that the en 13501 test was undertaken uh on a
02:46:53 undertaken uh on a system that's the words he uses there in the english four lines down en13501 testing was undertaken on a system and in the french it's three
02:47:05 system and in the french it's three lines up from the bottom of the page
02:47:19 expression can you tell us from your experience or confirm that the test conducted under en
02:47:31 that the test conducted under en 13501 is not a full system test it's only a test on the product itself
02:48:04 [Music] no i think that part of the test is carried out on a system when you say system would you agree that that's not a full facade
02:48:27 yes and it's necessary do you agree with me
02:48:31 me uh from your experience that in order to conduct
02:48:34 conduct the test uh under the european norm en 13501 you would have to choose a fixing method cassette or rivet
02:48:49 function
02:48:56 the system
02:49:10 yes
02:49:16 uh now do you accept that somebody in arconic
02:49:20 arconic would have made a number of decisions about how to set the test up for example what shape the panel would be in how it would be fixed
02:49:32 fixed and what the substrate was that would be used
02:49:53 substrate
02:49:56 yes can you tell me who within our comic would have made those decisions in late 2004.
02:50:18 do you accept that there are a number of variables
02:50:21 variables when it when one is conducting a test under the european system for example the shape of the product
02:50:30 product the mounting the substrate the air gap size of the air gap between reverse of the
02:50:37 the rain screen and the substrate
02:50:48 conditions
02:50:54 [Music]
02:51:10 [Music]
02:51:16 uh
02:51:22 [Music]
02:51:37 [Music]
02:51:58 yes i mean it's something that i really didn't know at the time but uh i imagined that that uh n13501 test was really a standard test and in my mind it meant
02:52:09 my mind it meant that uh it would be whatever the product the supplier the fabricator the whichever way it was mounted because the idea was that there would be
02:52:21 the idea was that there would be uh sort of identical conditions and therefore it would be useful for the reproductivity of the test and a fair comparison yeah
02:52:33 a fair comparison yeah yes and do you accept following on from that that each of these variables if changed can make a big difference to how the product performs in the test because
02:52:50 performance don't test
02:53:08 uh
02:53:16 [Music]
02:53:22 m
02:53:28 i mean what you're saying varies depending on all sorts of variables if we're talking merely about the rivets and the cassettes yes it does make a difference but for other variable or other elements
02:53:41 but for other variable or other elements i'm not sure for example what structure there is at the back how it's been constructed what is the depth of the air gap i'm not sure at all but you accept that
02:53:52 i'm not sure at all but you accept that each of those questions is variable uh if different from test to test might make a difference to the outcome of the tests
02:54:04 don't
02:54:11 yes potentially you're right were you aware
02:54:15 aware uh either in late 2004 or later when you came to be managing director in 2007 that the european test standard en13501
02:54:29 the european test standard en13501 requires the test requires the um the product product or system in which it's tested to be tested so as to
02:54:37 to simulate its end-use application are you aware of that in case you're escaped
02:54:44 escaped yes
02:54:46 [Music]
02:55:18 no no
02:55:21 if if that is correct and if it's correct that the european norm required the product to be tested so as to simulate its end use do you accept that arconic should have
02:55:33 do you accept that arconic should have determined how raynaud would be used in end use application and then perform sufficient testing to cover all of those conditions
02:56:10 you
02:56:15 [Music]
02:56:21 but if that's what the european standard was requesting then i feel that i could only but
02:56:36 [Music] uh
02:56:43 but i didn't feel well once again i was i was not aware of that condition
02:56:50 very well thank you very much mr chairman i've come to not only one o'clock or just after one o'clock but a natural break uh in the questioning might this be a convenient moment i think it would be yes i think we'd all
02:57:01 i think it would be yes i think we'd all quite like to have a break now for some lunch
02:57:03 lunch i'm sure mr schmidt would say
02:57:18 and please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it
02:57:31 all right please thank you very much