Evidence from Arconic representatives on marketing of Reynobond PE and FR panels. Focus on industry guidance on combustibility, marketing materials, and responsibility for product fire performance claims.
00:00:05 good afternoon everyone welcome to the resumption of the hearing we're going to continue hearing evidence from mr meekins mr meekins can you hear me can you see
00:00:16 mr meekins can you hear me can you see me i can hear you clearly sir and see you clearly good thank you very much and you're ready to go on are you yes i am yes good thank you yes ms grange then when you're ready yes thank you very much yes mr meakins i
00:00:28 yes thank you very much yes mr meakins i now want to ask you some questions about the boov murray technical guidance and if we can look first at uh met three zeros 53158
00:00:39 three zeros 53158 underscore p05 at page 80.
00:00:54 so this is an email from you to mr lionel marcone at arconic copying in mr verla claude verla and it's on the 11th of april
00:01:05 it's on the 11th of april 2016 and the subject is beave murray acm fire safety and you've attached the bead murray technical note from march 2016 and you say in the email good morning
00:01:17 and you say in the email good morning lionel clark claude i've been forwarded this document which b murray have produced and are now circulating to their customers and clients
00:01:26 clients and you say well worth a read please let me know your thoughts kind regards vince uh do you recall sending that email i do recall sending the email yes
00:01:39 recall sending the email yes and um if we go down to page 81 the next page of this clip
00:01:48 this is the guidance document the booth murray guidance document from march 2016 which you forwarded to your colleagues in merchheim in that email now do you remember
00:02:01 in that email now do you remember reading this guidance i remember yes casting my eye over the document uh several times uh and then forwarding it on to uh leonel
00:02:12 leonel and claude so your email indicates that you thought it was interesting why did you think it was uh interesting enough to send to your colleagues in france
00:02:22 france they had some information on there that could be relevant to our industry uh well it is relevant to our industry and any
00:02:30 and any sort of information that we gather when we're out and about with clients and customers then we automatically send it back to france for their uh consult
00:02:40 consult so they can have a good look and and see what's going on in the uk market yes i mean this was technical information on fire performance routes wasn't
00:02:49 wasn't it yes i do i do believe there was some technical performance in there yeah yeah so you must have had at least some understanding of those technical requirements to appreciate that this was significant guidance yes well you know i
00:03:02 significant guidance yes well you know i was talking to booth murray about it so yes they yeah it was very clear that there were certain things in there when you read it that was relevant to us
00:03:10 to us so that's why i sent it to uh marxian yes and if we can look again at that first page of the guidance on page 81 what we can see is that essentially it
00:03:21 what we can see is that essentially it sets out
00:03:22 sets out we can pan out a little bit there are four routes to compliance that this document sets out um and what it does is in option one
00:03:33 um and what it does is in option one it's saying that uh all materials need to be
00:03:38 to be non-combustible or of limited combustibility that's route one route two is a full system test 8414 route 3 is a desktop assessment and
00:03:50 route 3 is a desktop assessment and route 4 is a holistic fire engineered approach
00:03:54 approach so those are some routes that will be familiar to the panel but what we see here in route 1 is that it's saying
00:04:01 saying that to be compliant we can see this in the second line onwards to be compliant with adb you have to restrict
00:04:10 restrict all significant elements of each and every layer of the wall to non-combustible or limited combustibility materials yes
00:04:20 absolutely yes yes and therefore this was pretty important guidance wasn't it because it presented a real problem for you marketing both your pe and your
00:04:31 for you marketing both your pe and your fr panels in the uk that's right isn't it
00:04:34 it sorry this was a document that was done in-house from what i understand so it was actually put together by euroclad so it was their view
00:04:41 view it wasn't a uh a document that was uh legally put out there to everybody you know it was something that they put together this is what i understood it to be
00:04:51 be uh explaining certain aspects i understand that i understand that this was some
00:04:57 was some industry guidance that was put together but i'm going to ask the question again this is pretty important guidance wasn't it because it presented a real problem for you marketing the pe and fr panels
00:05:09 for you marketing the pe and fr panels in the uk yes well as i said it was an interesting read it's something that i think i would have liked to hear more back from
00:05:18 from uh france i.e the technical and leonel marconi with their view to what they actually
00:05:24 actually thought about the document did you appreciate at the time that this guidance if followed by others would stop you being able to sell reinaborn pe and indeed rayna bond fr panels in the
00:05:37 and indeed rayna bond fr panels in the uk
00:05:38 uk no i didn't look at it like that no we didn't so um didn't you have any did you have any opinion on the significance of this
00:05:48 of this guidance when it came out in all honesty uh
00:05:52 uh i know that um booth murray worked very closely with the luca bond on their a2 materials so i saw that as a marketing uh document to market their a2 material
00:06:06 uh document to market their a2 material uh in the marketplace but no i didn't i didn't think it was uh anything that would sort of damage uh you know us from using the fr or pe i didn't look into it like that i'd sent
00:06:18 didn't look into it like that i'd sent it off for analysis to france for them to give me some
00:06:22 some technical feedback because i was unaware of what actually all of it really meant i see if we look at the second page of the guidance on page 82
00:06:33 the guidance on page 82 of this clip we see some tables and if we look at the layer 3 table
00:06:43 what we can see is it's telling you whether certain materials meet the non-combustible or limited combustibility requirement and what we can see is that the pe called
00:06:56 what we can see is that the pe called acm
00:06:58 acm by rayna raynabon the last line does not meet it
00:07:02 meet it and we can also see that the rayna bond fr in the
00:07:06 fr in the section below that where it says b1 s1 d naught core on the left then fourth line down rain upon fr that also no
00:07:16 no does not meet the non-combustible or limited combustibility requirements do you remember seeing this table at the time
00:07:23 time i can remember casting my eye over it and seeing all the other competitors on there
00:07:28 there having the same sort of uh non-combustibility as no uh so uh it was very interesting that it was just the a2 core but because this wasn't you know it was
00:07:39 but because this wasn't you know it was their
00:07:41 their their look at that on the whole thing this is why i sent it to france for them to give me some more feedback that i didn't get so you know it would've been good to get some sort of feedback on the technical side to
00:07:52 of feedback on the technical side to give me some more information on exactly what it meant i see did you ever get a response from lionel marconi or claude verla after you'd sent them this document i
00:08:03 after you'd sent them this document i can honestly say i don't remember ever getting a response back okay and some questions now about the fr core increasing in popularity you told the inquiry last week that your
00:08:15 the inquiry last week that your you said your main remit was to sell the fr
00:08:19 fr railabon product and that you were told by elaine flackon when he was managing director to focus your efforts on the sales of that fr product do you remember that was your evidence
00:08:30 remember that was your evidence that's absolutely correct yes and you said that you were told this at a sales meet can you help us as to when that sales meet took place that you were told to focus on
00:08:41 told to focus on fr so it would have been a very early sales meet uh because alan was then the uh the sales manager then uh sales director
00:08:52 the sales manager then uh sales director uh
00:08:53 uh and i just recall them you know wanting to
00:08:56 to move forward with the fr sorry can you hear me
00:08:59 hear me can you hear me okay sorry to move forward with the fr product uh as i mentioned before i we had a pe product but i took the pe product to be a standard core product
00:09:10 a standard core product and the fr to be more of a an advanced product that we would everyone move forward already with this sort of product so uh yeah i recall uh alan saying that
00:09:21 uh yeah i recall uh alan saying that early on
00:09:22 early on in the sales meets and saying wherever we can you know we need to really focus on uh the fr product because we're putting a lot of effort into it to manufacture it were you told why you had to focus your
00:09:34 were you told why you had to focus your efforts on the fr product
00:09:38 no we were just told that the fr product needs to be focused no reason to why
00:09:47 you told the inquiry last week that when you started with arconic that you did not understand that the uk was a pe market and you said we had a big focus on fr as well as pe
00:10:00 we had a big focus on fr as well as pe so it was pretty much 50 50. that's what you said in your evidence last week absolutely in my opinion uh when you open when i went into the market obviously i was talking to various different fabricators
00:10:12 various different fabricators and people that we could get involved with on the fabrication side and it was very much fr you know everyone was talking a luca bond fr uh and wanting to move forward you know
00:10:23 uh and wanting to move forward you know and specifying fr so it was there was pe but it was mainly in when i was about
00:10:28 was about in my time the fr product i see so did you mean that when you joined arconic uh that arconic itself sold pretty much 50 50 pe
00:10:38 50 50 pe and fr i wouldn't say we sold i would say we were looking at producing more fr for the market so uh we would certainly uh wherever
00:10:49 so uh we would certainly uh wherever need
00:10:50 need be the fr product would be put forward i see ms french told us in her witness statement that she couldn't recall any occasion
00:10:59 occasion on which she had sold the fr product um can you help us as to why there's such a difference between the two of you and yet only you're only four months apart in terms of how you recall the market
00:11:12 in terms of how you recall the market yes uh i would say that uh miss french was um
00:11:16 was um working with two main fabricators which were genius facade systems and i i guess i think she worked with cep
00:11:24 cep along and a very few fabricators uh so they were probably predominantly coming back with projects that weren't an fr well we know that's different now but they were obviously asking
00:11:36 but they were obviously asking for fr or ordering fr material via the office
00:11:40 office or via deborah or through deborah when i'd started with a company my my remit was to bring on new clients clients that would lost uh due to
00:11:51 clients that would lost uh due to neglect in the past the likes of sotech argonau and the all the other fabricators that we used to work with and they were indicating and indicated from the very beginning
00:12:01 beginning that they only used fr products very very few
00:12:05 very few only used pe so that's when i was opened up to fr
00:12:09 up to fr so tech used a lot of a luca bond with an arf r product okay can we look at something mr schmidt uh tells us in his witness statement if we can go to his second witness statement this is met
00:12:22 statement this is met 3053187 page 14 paragraph 44
00:12:36 so he says there i'll read it with you although arconic wanted to further reduce the cost of fr our general push towards fr was successful as by 2015 the overall sales from
00:12:48 as by 2015 the overall sales from mexheim of raynabond fr for architecture exceeded the sales of raynabond pe for architecture and then he exhibits a graph and then he says furthermore in relation to uk sales fr moved from
00:13:01 in relation to uk sales fr moved from accounting for approximately three percent of sales in 2014 to 30 of sales in 2015 and 34 of sales in 2016 whilst the uk market
00:13:14 of sales in 2016 whilst the uk market was therefore lagging behind other countries
00:13:17 countries as a c m p e was popular you can go over the page and the market was slow to respond to change the position was moving and the percentage
00:13:28 position was moving and the percentage of uk
00:13:29 of uk sales which were fr did increase between 2013 and 2016 inclusive we can see that there so um the figures that um mr schmidt gives
00:13:41 um the figures that um mr schmidt gives is that there is a big increase from 2014 to 2015. it goes from 3 to 30 but then only a small increase in the percentage of sales
00:13:50 sales into 2016 that's 30 to 34 percent um if the p if you as you say the market was 50 50
00:13:59 was 50 50 can you account for why there was only a small increase in sales between 2015 and 2016. in terms of the fr product well i think we work
00:14:10 we work as specification sales managers so we work on specifying products for the future and this can sometimes take up to two years
00:14:22 years of hard work on a project before we're actually specified and before we win the project
00:14:27 project so there are lots of projects that i was working on with fabricators and alike that wouldn't come to light until the end of 16 17 18
00:14:38 to light until the end of 16 17 18 in some cases so there were lots of projects in the pipeline that were fr i see okay can we look at another document which helps us on the sales of pe
00:14:47 pe in the uk and this is a meta 50763
00:14:54 50763 and it's um an excel spreadsheet so we may need that bringing up on the screen it's the first tab that i need
00:15:25 we got that emmy here we go
00:15:29 yes thank you so um this is a spreadsheet with the title of it is sales of pe in the uk 1998 to 2017. and in this first tab we can see year on
00:15:41 and in this first tab we can see year on year
00:15:42 year what the square meterage was of a rainer bond that was sold and then the revenue
00:15:49 revenue and what we can see is that the meter squared figure pe sold in 2015 is 33 000 meters squared do you see that
00:16:00 meters squared do you see that towards the bottom of those figures yes i can see that yes and then in 2016 three hundred and thirty seven do you have that i can yeah i can see that yeah
00:16:12 have that i can yeah i can see that yeah so there is a drop in uh the sales of pe or sorry the meterage squared of p e as between twenty 2015 and 2016 but we still
00:16:23 still have around 18 337 meters squared of pe being sold in in 2016. do you see that i do see that yes so and it's right
00:16:34 i do see that yes so and it's right isn't it that significant quantities of pe
00:16:36 pe did carry on being sold in 2016. absolutely and i can't explain to what where it was sold uh the pe would have predominantly been sold into the cid market
00:16:48 sold into the cid market now i know debbie debra french didn't actually
00:16:51 actually uh get involved in the cid market it was just the architectural market uh i had a big turnaround uh when i started
00:16:59 started and that corporate identification market was a big thing yes i understand and that warranted pe material
00:17:07 material so they would order the pe material and that's probably a lot where that that would come from i see so you're saying that from on your experience sales the pe to architecture dropped but it
00:17:19 the pe to architecture dropped but it was the other sales that kept it up absolutely yeah i see um mr verla in his witness statement tells us that in 2015 the prices of
00:17:31 tells us that in 2015 the prices of rainer bond fr and pe were almost identical he says that the price of the fr was around 26.71 euros and the pe 26.06 euros
00:17:45 and the pe 26.06 euros was that your experience that the price of the two products was almost the same no it wasn't the same uh not in the uk i'm afraid uh i i i believe uh
00:17:57 uh i i i believe uh you could you could drop lower with the pe
00:18:00 pe uh but i think he's got it mixed up because we're always about two pounds a square meter more in fr than we were in pe so i'm not sure where we've got the same
00:18:13 i'm not sure where we've got the same figures because that just would not been the case it was more expensive to produce the fr yes and we would never have sold fr at the same price as pe yes so i think we can agree can we that
00:18:24 yes so i think we can agree can we that iconic certainly in the uk was not able to offer the fr core at the pe standard price never no no
00:18:35 mr burler also says that the uk market was slow to shift to the fr core compared with other countries would you agree with that uh i would say when i started there was plenty of opportunity to have an frfr
00:18:48 plenty of opportunity to have an frfr projects
00:18:49 projects so yeah i would say they were probably slower than most of our competitors yes yeah can we look at some emails now on this
00:18:56 this this is um met3053158 underscore p06 page 99.
00:19:13 now this is an email dated the third of may
00:19:16 may 2016 from alain flackon to a number of personnel within arconic seeing lionel marconi and claude verla
00:19:28 lionel marconi and claude verla and others um and this appears to be and maybe you can help us does this seem to be an email sent to the french sales team
00:19:41 the french sales team uh claude yes that seems to be predominantly french people in there yes so i'd say so yeah yes and we can see that the email reads good morning all as you know the fire
00:19:53 good morning all as you know the fire safety classifications for rayna bond building products in france show a discrepancy between nfp 92 501 and its equivalent under en
00:20:04 nfp 92 501 and its equivalent under en 13501 and then the the discrepancies are then set out in tables below so you can see that under the norm
00:20:16 you can see that under the norm francaise
00:20:17 francaise the the the national france tests it's getting an m1 classification for rivet and cassette but he's set out what it's getting under the en 13501
00:20:28 what it's getting under the en 13501 test as well and it's getting a c and an e and he does the same for rayner bomb pe and rayna bond fr do you see that
00:20:39 and rayna bond fr do you see that yes and then if we can look at the text below the table he says this ambiguous situation is open
00:20:51 he says this ambiguous situation is open to interpretation and in particular gives control officers the option to check the m classification as a priority as the european classification is more complex to understand
00:21:02 complex to understand and to use you or your customers regularly specify our rainer bomb products on large-scale architectural projects
00:21:09 projects as such alcoa architectural products finds itself as a knowledgeable entity and therefore accepts its responsibility and image as a specialist in this field
00:21:20 and image as a specialist in this field in view of the potential calorific benefits of reinaborn fr versus rainerbon pe and consequently its superior performances we have taken the proactive habit of
00:21:32 we have taken the proactive habit of favoring fr as the only solution in our specifications and then in bold text we see this it says as from today i ask you to go even further and to
00:21:43 i ask you to go even further and to systematically confirm in writing the requirement for fr for all projects on which arena bonds specification is involved regardless of the nature and size of the
00:21:55 regardless of the nature and size of the building project and then if you have any questions about the application of these instructions please contact claude we'll give you all the necessary information to justify this church
00:22:06 information to justify this church choice and advise the specifiers as best possible regarding the solution which is by far the safest and then i'm counting on your active cooperation
00:22:18 counting on your active cooperation so it would appear that from based on this email in may 2016 the french sales team were directly instructed to stop recommending pe and sell only fr
00:22:31 to stop recommending pe and sell only fr in france regardless of the application now were you aware of that i've never seen that
00:22:39 seen that email so i no i was unaware of that and in fact leonel marcone sorry alan flackon goes further and asks the team
00:22:50 the team to systematically confirm to customers in writing that fr is required regardless of the nature and size of the building project so it's a
00:23:00 a it's quite a stringent instruction that's being brought in here so just to be clear is it your evidence that you were never aware that there'd been this change to how
00:23:12 that there'd been this change to how reynabon was being sold in france no i wasn't aware of how it was being sold in france first time i've seen that email
00:23:20 email did you ever receive a similar instruction or anything along similar lines uh in the uk
00:23:28 well later on uh we obviously stopped producing the pe product uh and it was only just the fr uh and then we obviously ceased production of their far as well
00:23:40 of their far as well uh and stopped the renobon production completely uh but no up until the fire at the tragedy at grenfell uh there was nothing said to me to stop selling
00:23:51 selling or producing uh or putting forward the pe
00:23:54 pe product as as i've mentioned before i was involved quite heavily in the the corporate identification side uh with with fast fume chains well-known
00:24:05 uh with with fast fume chains well-known fast few chains that were purchasing pe on quite a regular basis so fabricators were still using that for the
00:24:13 the corporate identification market in the uk
00:24:17 uk i see okay um just some questions now about the a2 product
00:24:24 product um in your witness statement we don't need to turn it up but uh this is at paragraph 20 page seven and
00:24:30 and you've mentioned it in your evidence already you said that one of your main disadvantages was being unable to offer any a2 product uh in the uk market other than reino dual
00:24:41 market other than reino dual that's right isn't it that's absolutely correct yes and i think as you confirm before raynaud was two thin skins of aluminium only that's right isn't it that's correct there was no core in her energy did you ever sell
00:24:53 energy did you ever sell uh raino duel for architectural use was it ever used in that way i'm afraid it was it was a brilliant it was a fantastic product and it was unfortunately uh
00:25:04 and it was unfortunately uh not viable in the uk market because it was so very very expensive uh so therefore it was up against the likes of a2 products and we were losing due to the price of
00:25:15 and we were losing due to the price of the
00:25:16 the the materials that's the only reason the product itself was a super product i see yeah if we can look at mr schmidt's second witness statement now met three zeroes five three one eight
00:25:28 met three zeroes five three one eight seven
00:25:29 seven page seven i want to look at what he says at paragraph seventeen
00:25:40 in this paragraph he's explaining the beginning what the different products are in the second line you can see he talks about the reinaborn pe fr and a2 product and then a few
00:25:51 fr and a2 product and then a few lines down that he in the fifth line he says the a2 reference comes from the class that the project achieves when tested to european standard and
00:26:02 when tested to european standard and then he gives the european standard um and sorry just above that um he said that the a2 has a core made of 90
00:26:11 90 mineral content plus 10 polyethylene and that made it of limited combustibility were you um made aware of what the composition was
00:26:22 made aware of what the composition was of the a2 product by iconic no i was never told what the uh
00:26:27 uh what the makeup of the a2 product was uh but we understood that obviously its rating was a non-combustible rating so it was it was a lot better product
00:26:38 a lot better product uh for high-rise buildings and that's what's been specified a lot of the time on buildings if we look back at that paragraph i just want to ask you about some other points that mr schmidt makes in this
00:26:50 points that mr schmidt makes in this paragraph about the 80 product
00:26:56 so if we pick it up in the seventh line on the right hand side it begins aap he says our conic started to manufacture reynabond
00:27:08 started to manufacture reynabond a2 at mercsheim in late 2016 with the launch of a2 product from the merck sign production line being in january 2017 and then he says which was after the
00:27:19 and then he says which was after the supply of the material which was used on grenfell tower um just pausing there for a moment were you aware of that were you told that there had been a launch of an a2 product that was then
00:27:32 launch of an a2 product that was then available
00:27:33 available to be sold in late 2017 yes there was a launch of the product uh the a2 product uh unfortunately it it wasn't for the uk market there was a
00:27:46 wasn't for the uk market there was a launch
00:27:47 launch uh but the uk market did we couldn't go ahead with the product purely because we didn't have a bva uh we didn't have there was a lot of stuff that we we needed to finish off uh our league times were very very poor
00:28:00 uh our league times were very very poor on the product and we could only produce it in certain colors
00:28:04 colors so it just wasn't viable for the uk market
00:28:07 market everybody was asking for various different colors and it was quite expensive as well again okay into the uk market i see and if we go back to that paragraph he then continues
00:28:19 paragraph he then continues um this is picking that paragraph 17 up 10 lines down it's pretty much just over halfway down that paragraph he says from 2014 arconic had made
00:28:32 from 2014 arconic had made limited sales of rayna bond a2 with the product
00:28:35 product at that time being manufactured by a third party in china and returned to arconic as a finished product for sale and he says i've been asked whether the
00:28:46 and he says i've been asked whether the product was publicly advertised by arconic at the time of the supply of the material used on grenfell tower and having spoken to colleagues understand that it was not it would however have been available if
00:28:57 it would however have been available if requested by a customer now we wanted to ask were you aware of that were you aware that from 2014 arconic had been able to manufacture via a third party in china
00:29:08 manufacture via a third party in china a reynabond a2 product now i was never aware that we had an a2 product uh all the way through from the time i started in 2015
00:29:19 started in 2015 until we launched it in 2017 if i had been then obviously i would have been you know promoting that product
00:29:28 product i'm not sure you mentioned something about it being manufactured in china uh yeah i'm not i'm not sure about that i've never been asked or was aware of a
00:29:40 been asked or was aware of a product that we could put into the uk market i see so um on your understanding the a2 product wasn't available to sell
00:29:51 the a2 product wasn't available to sell in the uk
00:29:52 in the uk at the time of the grenfell tower project
00:29:55 project so from 2014 through to the end of 2015. yeah we had we had i had no a2 product for the uk market i see can we look at um another piece of
00:30:07 i see can we look at um another piece of marketing literature now and this is a brochure called fire safety in high-rise buildings from 2016
00:30:18 and this is a a piece of marketing material that you have specifically referred to in your witness statement as having
00:30:25 having been available um if we can look at what you say in your statement um at page 16 paragraph 49
00:30:41 so in in paragraph 49.1 we can see you are talking about brochures that were available in 2014 when you began working for arconic and then if we could go over the page to
00:30:53 then if we could go over the page to look at paragraph 49.3.4
00:31:00 you talk about this document reynabond raynalux
00:31:03 raynalux fire safety and high-rise buildings our fire solutions leaflet and you say this this followed introduction of the new product towards the end of 2016 namely an
00:31:14 the end of 2016 namely an acm cord panel an a2 core acm panel so is it right that this uh new piece of literature fire safety and high-rise buildings was
00:31:26 fire safety and high-rise buildings was introduced at the time that arconic had an a2 product available yes it was released i do believe the a2 uh product
00:31:35 product at the bow exhibition in germany that i attended so we uh we introduced it then uh and i can't remember if that was 2017
00:31:46 uh and i can't remember if that was 2017 or 16 but there was a leaflet uh with uh the a2 uh material that we'd released yeah let's have a look at that leaflet now and we may need the native version to get a clean copy
00:31:59 the native version to get a clean copy of it it's a arc
00:32:12 50465
00:32:30 no i don't think that's it it's um arc five zeroes four six five it's entitled
00:32:38 entitled rainbow rain relucts fire safety in high-rise buildings
00:32:45 there we go so i think this is a folded brochure again and it would appear that the front page appears on the right-hand side of this screen and
00:32:56 screen and it says aluminium solutions for facades and roofs cladding fire safety and high-rise buildings our fire solutions do you have that i can see the brochure yes
00:33:07 yes and is this the brochure that you were referring to in that part of your statement
00:33:11 statement i don't believe it is actually i can't remember seeing this particular brochure uh it obviously is the title is the same uh but it i can't be absolutely 100 sure that that is the
00:33:23 absolutely 100 sure that that is the exact brochure because they would i remember there were two i think brochures for the a2 product i see well this is the version that we have in the middle of the page in very tiny text there's a date you can
00:33:34 in very tiny text there's a date you can take it from me it's the 12th it says 12 to 2016 okay in this document to december 2016. um and it's it was provided to us in
00:33:47 um and it's it was provided to us in english so it would appear to be for the english market yes or the english speaking market yes of course yes yes and if we look on the far left under
00:33:58 and if we look on the far left under test methods and certifications we can see if we could blow that far left
00:34:05 left page up it it basically says test en13501
00:34:11 en13501 and it says under that the european fire certification en13501 is the most complete
00:34:16 complete test when it comes to fire when other tests do not take into account major factors the european fire certification en13501
00:34:28 the european fire certification en13501 part one does so it's very much saying you need to look at the en testing and there we have underneath it there's a
00:34:40 there we have underneath it there's a table i'm sorry it's not as as clear as it perhaps could be but i um i can help you with some of what's in there
00:34:48 there uh what we can see is a table with ticks against what's tested by certain testing and we can see in the top line it it
00:34:59 and we can see in the top line it it does say en13501 and all the boxes are ticked so flame spread smoke production and burning droplets are all ticked
00:35:10 are all ticked and then it's got an astm test underneath that and then it has bs476 part 6 and part 7 and it's making clear that fire flame spread is tested by that with the tick
00:35:22 spread is tested by that with the tick but smoke production and burning droplets are not um so that's what said there that this test this european test is the most
00:35:33 test this european test is the most complete test and then if we go to the bottom of the page we can see different european classification standards
00:35:42 standards it goes down from a1 to d we note that there's no e or f on here did did you notice that at the time i don't recall seeing this particular brochure actually i know we had one but
00:35:54 brochure actually i know we had one but that this one i don't remember seeing these these charts or these uh i see if we can go now down to the second page and look at the far left hand side
00:36:10 if we can look at the top of the page on the far left hand side it says the fire solutions from our conic architectural products and it says fire is a key issue when it comes to buildings
00:36:23 comes to buildings and underneath that in the black text it says when conceiving a building it's crucial to choose the adapted product in order to avoid fire to spread to the whole building especially when it comes to facades and
00:36:34 especially when it comes to facades and roofs the fire can spread extremely rapidly and then underneath that in the second paragraph it says important to take the fire characteristic into account when starting the construction or
00:36:45 starting the construction or refurbishment of a building in order to protect the people and assets while limiting fire propagation and then it says it is especially crucial for public establish establishments such as hospitals schools
00:36:57 establishments such as hospitals schools offices etc and then it says on the right hand side in the black text buildings are also classified according to their height and destination public buildings industrial
00:37:08 destination public buildings industrial buildings housings dot dot dot it will also define which materials are safer to use another important rule when it comes to the height of buildings concerns the accessibility of the fire brigade
00:37:20 accessibility of the fire brigade to the fire in the building as soon as the building is higher than the firefighters ladders it has to be conceived with an incombustible material so that is the very clear advice that's being given in this
00:37:31 advice that's being given in this brochure
00:37:32 brochure and uh underneath that we can see there's diagrams and do you see on the right hand side there's a
00:37:39 there's a building diagram with a ladder next to it
00:37:43 it and you can see it's telling you where on the building you should be using the three cores fr sorry a2 at the top fr then underneath that i think 30 meters and then
00:37:55 meters and then below 10 meters it's saying pe do you have that
00:37:59 have that i do yes i can see that and then the caption in small black writing you can't read this on this version i'm afraid but it says as soon as the building is higher than
00:38:11 as soon as the building is higher than the firefighter's ladders it has to be conceived with an incombustible material so it repeats that part again and then underneath that there's a heading advantages of our product if we can just go down the page
00:38:29 and here it says in blue rayner bond architecture with f fr or a2 cores rayno dual renault lux aluminium composite panels and sheets represent
00:38:41 composite panels and sheets represent the ideal material because of several advantages and one of those advantages you can see the blue bullet is limit fire propagation and the first bullet point says architecture aluminium composite panels
00:38:54 architecture aluminium composite panels and their respectively fire retardant and incombustible properties the fire propagation is limited the cause of our product are main keys the cores are mainly
00:39:05 are main keys the cores are mainly mineral
00:39:06 mineral fr approximately 70 minerals a2 approximately 90 minerals and then in the middle and the right hand pages if we can come back out
00:39:23 we see that there are tables giving the file performance of the fr and the a2 product and note there is nothing said here at
00:39:35 and note there is nothing said here at all
00:39:35 all in these tables about the fire properties of the pe product
00:39:45 now do you agree that this shows that uh certainly by this time arconic knew full well that pe should not be sold for tall buildings
00:39:58 i will say i've never seen this copy of all this
00:40:01 all this of this document i knew that we had a document out there but it wasn't this one do you know if this has been printed oh this is mr meakins i've just been informed this is the document that you exhibit
00:40:12 is the document that you exhibit to the paragraph of your witness statement that i just showed you yes but as i said i think there's two documents this particular document i have not seen i know the document that we had at about
00:40:23 i know the document that we had at about was not this one so i don't know where this particular one has come from or even if it was actually printed or was it in the uh just as a sort of uh marketing
00:40:35 uh just as a sort of uh marketing uh brochure ready to go to the market well i
00:40:38 well i i can't help you mr meakins other than to say that this is in this is in your exhibits and this is the document that you have exhibited is my understanding to your witness statement title of the document yes but
00:40:50 statement title of the document yes but i don't remember ever seeing this document
00:40:52 document so uh i i yes are you saying that you never saw a brochure that in such clear and unequivocal terms explained that you shouldn't use pe in
00:41:05 explained that you shouldn't use pe in certain applications i am i've never seen a brochure explaining as you've said not to use a pe material it tells you where you can use the pe but i've not seen this particular
00:41:16 seen this particular document i see so you never saw anything to this effect at the time that the a2 product had been in this depth no i've not seen this
00:41:30 i wanted to ask you assuming that you'd seen it whether this gave you any pause for thought about the tall buildings for which reynabond pe had already been sold by you but does it follow
00:41:41 follow that you wouldn't have thought about that because you weren't aware of the detail in this brochure as you're aware by this time i was fully aware
00:41:49 aware that the pe uh was specified at lower level
00:41:53 level and the fr fr at a certain another level uh so i was aware of that but i'm saying i've not seen this document uh so i can't comment on this particular document
00:42:04 document it would appear that what arconic are doing is making a virtue of the a2 product by comparing it very clearly with the poorer performance of the pe product yes
00:42:16 product yes i can't comment on that because i i haven't seen that particular brochure i haven't studied it so i i can't see uh if i really can't comment on on that
00:42:29 uh if i really can't comment on on that and there was never any earlier marketing material was there that spelled out the fire safety risks of the different products in this amount of detail was there absolutely i
00:42:40 absolutely i i don't remember seeing any document in this depth uh this detail uh no and is it right that it wasn't until
00:42:47 until arconic had its own viable a2 product manufactured in-house the arconic decided to market the fact that pe was unsuitable for tall buildings
00:43:00 for tall buildings i never actually had an a2 product as you're aware in the uk uh and i i don't ever recall them uh you know coming up with any statement
00:43:13 uh you know coming up with any statement saying that
00:43:15 is it right that from early 2017 you began to receive orders for the a2 product in the uk that's correct yes and how did the sales of a2 progress well they didn't because we didn't have
00:43:27 well they didn't because we didn't have the a2 material we were told to uh specify the a2 material
00:43:32 material uh and start getting orders in uh so i i had a few projects that i was working on that i was very excited about and uh unfortunately because we couldn't manufacture the a2 material
00:43:43 manufacture the a2 material uh in the colors and the times and at the cost we said we were going to be able to
00:43:48 able to i lost the projects to competitors i see yeah can we just look at an email on this this is inq3014536 and i should
00:44:08 this this is inq3014536 and i should make clear this is a translation of what was a french email the inquiries had it translated
00:44:15 it's an email if we look at the top from veronica
00:44:20 veronica defontaine on the 14th of june 2017 the day of the grenfell tower fire to lionel marconi and the subject is fire in london grenfell tower and he
00:44:31 fire in london grenfell tower and he says lionel just for your information i've just had vince on the phone he's distraught after this fire luca bond called all the market players prescribing that everything be done in a2
00:44:43 everything be done in a2 that day vince lost four projects because orders would come in quickly and we don't have a2 certificates do you see that there yes i do yes and
00:44:54 do you see that there yes i do yes and i think that confirms what you've already said in your evidence that you didn't have any form of certificate including a bba certificate for the a2 product is that right and that's why you lost sales that's correct we didn't it was
00:45:07 sales that's correct we didn't it was due to the uh the time as well uh the turnaround of the product uh was months away from the actual um needing the product so we were way
00:45:18 needing the product so we were way behind with production and it just wasn't viable people were going elsewhere and is it right that you did continue to sell pe
00:45:27 sell pe cord products even in 2017 prior to the grenfell fire the only pe products that were sold uh all the way through my career up until the grenfell tyre
00:45:38 the grenfell tyre were for the corporate identification market
00:45:42 market um that went into projects as i've mentioned before uh fast food joints and car garages and as
00:45:49 as such i see um can we just look at some of your weekly reports if we look at mata 5071
00:46:02 this is your weekly report of the 15th of
00:46:06 of may 2017.
00:46:09 may 2017. you can you can take that from me this is your 15th of may 2017 weekly report and if we look halfway down
00:46:17 down page one there's a heading cep omnis and we can see three lines down there's a reference to a baggett street project
00:46:29 a baggett street project and you say bhagat street half of the mid of materials for this order have now been placed 5 000 metres squared the other half will be ordered in august and you'd say they have secured another rayna bond project in our
00:46:41 rayna bond project in our gold metallic
00:46:46 um what material had been secured as that other reynabond project can you help us which one are we talking about the baggage street i guess well underneath
00:46:58 baggage street i guess well underneath baggett street you've then said they which we understood to mean cep on this have secured another rainer bomb project in our spiral gold metallic
00:47:16 i don't know the name of the project so i would just they would have just told me that that was the color that they would have secured a project in i see if we look then at another weekly report written by you a
00:47:28 another weekly report written by you a month later on the 12th of june 2017 this is meta
00:47:36 50706.
00:47:41 so this is your weekly report for june 2017. in the first paragraph under market and competition prospect project opportunity you've got
00:47:52 prospect project opportunity you've got cep omnis again and you've got grenfell towers london further to the fire disaster in london today i've had various conversations with cep regarding the future orders
00:48:03 with cep regarding the future orders and the orders in the system and wanting to change them to fr and you say this looking back on their purchase history they only ever order pe so with today's fires this might change
00:48:14 this might change drastically will update accordingly that's correct
00:48:22 so um would it be right then that any orders by cep prior to that time would have been pe because you've looked back and you've checked
00:48:31 checked and that was all they were ordering yes that's that were my findings uh obviously i'd specified the the bagot street project uh that was an fr project um but
00:48:42 uh that was an fr project um but looking out back at the history after the fire of what they were ordering uh which i think i was asked to do uh they all seemed to have been pe and
00:48:53 they all seemed to have been pe and there was no no sort of record of any fr being purchased
00:49:01 yes um if we can go back to your may 2017 report um this is m80 met a 50710
00:49:13 um this is m80 met a 50710 there's a reference there
00:49:22 you can go meta50710 and we go to the bottom of the first page
00:49:29 page there's a reference to genius facades and the hilton hotel
00:49:36 it says genius facade hilton hotel i've been told the prices given by lionel veronica holliday have enabled them to secure this project at 22.5 meters
00:49:48 at 22.5 meters squared do you see that there sorry per square meter looking at that uh price would you agree that's likely to be a price for p e rather than f r i would say that's
00:50:00 e rather than f r i would say that's probably an fr price uh to be honest uh they tend to have got their p e for around about the 20 pound mark it would have been 19 to 20 pounds 22 pound 50 see although it did a
00:50:13 22 pound 50 see although it did a sparkling black so that could have been a little bit more expensive actually so it could have been likely to have been fr
00:50:21 been fr i would think okay it seems quite a low price for fr but if that's your evidence well unless it
00:50:28 it uh we can go back and find out what the project was um i can't be sure okay let's move on if we look at page three within this report
00:50:39 look at page three within this report there's reference to a project called mosley street um this is an omnis project do you see that in the table the third project down maybe street 1200
00:50:50 the third project down maybe street 1200 metres squared awaiting clients go ahead with color can we just look at some documents relating to that if we go to met 3053179
00:51:10 and if we go to page two in the start of the chain there's an email from jeff blades at the bottom of that page
00:51:20 jeff blades to you on the 10th of january at 10 14 morning vince anna the subject 75 mosley street manchester and jeff blade states roughly above
00:51:31 and jeff blade states roughly above we're now in receipt of an order to provide the cassette panels please see attach cassette panel schedule all panels are to be rain upon deep gray and a die anodized could you please confirm your
00:51:42 anodized could you please confirm your rate of 24.75 meters squared
00:51:48 and then if we go to page five
00:51:54 at um on the 22nd of may 2017 we see deborah tolbert of cep come back to you good afternoon
00:52:05 of cep come back to you good afternoon vince i'd like to order the following rainer bomb panels in dark grey and anodized and she sets them out and then says i understand you've agreed the price with jeff however he's on holiday and your replies
00:52:16 however he's on holiday and your replies at the bottom of page 4 email of the 22nd of may at 1642
00:52:25 you say good afternoon deborah thank you for your order will you be sending an official purchase order or shall we use the reference in the subject field virgin please can we accept this order and put into production
00:52:38 now did you understand that to be an order for pe at the time mosley street i think it was a project
00:52:47 a project that was an ongoing project before my time i i
00:52:50 time i i thought i understood that to be an fr project
00:52:55 project well we can see in the email above virgine
00:52:58 virgine grandan uh has clarified and asked for some information so she says from arconic hi vince i hope you're fine smiley face some important info are
00:53:09 smiley face some important info are missing before being able to register the order
00:53:12 the order and her second query is p e or f r core do you see that yes i can see that yeah
00:53:18 that yeah and it was only then you asked deborah tolbert to confirm if we go to page one the second email from the top is from
00:53:31 the second email from the top is from you to
00:53:32 you to deborah talbot on the 23rd of may
00:53:38 and you say hi debbie this 24.75 for our deep gray anodized was a special price from senior management for pe can you confirm that you're needing pe or fr on this project please
00:53:50 or fr on this project please the price for fr is 26.75 meters squared i was under the impression that fr was needed on mosley street do you see that that's correct yes and then
00:54:02 that's correct yes and then if you scroll up to the top email deborah talbot replies
00:54:09 it's the pe i have attached our order thanks for your help
00:54:18 so here we can see that there's a combination of emails and eventually they confirm it was pe can you remember why you had thought in your email that it was fr
00:54:29 thought in your email that it was fr that was wanted i i don't think we supplied that project in pe because i think we questioned it and found out it was an fr project uh i would like to look into that a bit more because
00:54:40 more because uh my my problem was um that i had with the uh the office in france and this is all fair play to france and the girls in france the internal staff
00:54:52 girls in france the internal staff they'd be called up by the fabricators placing orders for standard material for projects that were
00:54:59 were specified otherwise and then i've once the project has been or the order has been placed they would get that material and i'd have no say in what material was ordered
00:55:11 have no say in what material was ordered it had i had to they had to order the material through me for me to make that decision and say well actually guys this is an fr project it isn't a pe project and that's why i
00:55:22 it isn't a pe project and that's why i mentioned
00:55:23 mentioned um about the pe being ordered in the past
00:55:26 past from cep sorry to waffle but i'm trying to get the whole the whole picture so you understand were you aware that this was a seven story office redevelopment
00:55:38 story office redevelopment uh no i i i can't i don't believe it i understood it was a seven story development this was a project that they would have been working on before for quite a few years i understand
00:55:50 and you can't help us as to whether it's right that after the fire at grenfell tower cep
00:55:54 tower cep changed this order to fr from pe well because i guess they they realized that it was specified uh fr they'd ordered the pe and then
00:56:05 uh fr they'd ordered the pe and then they changed from fr to uh from pe to fr um as i mentioned before as you i looked at the history and all they'd done in the past when they phoned up for orders
00:56:17 they phoned up for orders uh we just ordered the standard core and they'd been up no one questioning it because there was no one to question it when i came on board i would find the specification no it's an fr project and i'd say well i
00:56:28 no it's an fr project and i'd say well i understand that that is an fr project uh and hence that's why they changed the uh the specification from pe to fr i see thank you i've just got two more topics
00:56:39 thank you i've just got two more topics to cover with you and the next topic is visits from merc time
00:56:44 time personnel to the uk i want to ask you about a couple of visits where individuals from merkstein came over to the uk um if we look at mr verla's witness
00:56:58 um if we look at mr verla's witness statement
00:56:59 statement uh met three zeros five three one nine zero
00:57:04 zero page twenty nine i want to look at paragraph 103
00:57:17 so i'll read it with you mr verla says as far as i'm aware my only contact with ryden prior to the grenfell tower fire was in relation to a separate project where rayna bond product had been fitted
00:57:28 where rayna bond product had been fitted on a project at camden in london the chalcott's estate i was asked by vince meakins to ascend a site visit with himself and two people from ryden allen white and steve blake on the 4th
00:57:40 allen white and steve blake on the 4th of may 2017 in relation to a delamination issue allegedly affecting some panels fitted to the blocks now just pausing there can you recall mr verla's visit
00:57:51 verla's visit to the chalcott's estate in may 2017. i can recall uh mr burley's visit yes and can you recall that it was a delamination problem that he was going
00:58:02 delamination problem that he was going to look at on site i can i initially went to the project uh and
00:58:08 and couldn't answer the technical questions that i was being asked i wasn't sure what
00:58:13 what caused the delamination that's why mr burleigh
00:58:16 burleigh came to sight at a later date and were you present when he met representatives of ryden on site uh i do believe i was i don't remember
00:58:27 uh i do believe i was i don't remember steve blake but i do remember mr white and if we carry on with what he says picking up on the second line from the bottom he says during that meeting we walked around the
00:58:38 during that meeting we walked around the perimeter of all the tower blocks at the chalcott's estate and the technical delamination matter was discussed a sample of the material from one of the towers was taken by one of the ryden
00:58:50 towers was taken by one of the ryden representatives and provided to me for further review during the course of that site visit i expressed to the two ryden representatives surprised to see a number of buildings
00:59:01 surprised to see a number of buildings of such height with acm pe cladding material
00:59:05 material rather than an fr product the ryden representatives commented that the relevant uk regulations allow the use of acm pe products in such scenarios i did not make any further inquiries
00:59:16 i did not make any further inquiries relating to the uk regulations following this comment by ryden now do you recall mr verla expressing surprise
00:59:24 surprise during that meeting about the number of tall buildings that had acm pe on them rather than an fr product
00:59:35 no i don't recall that uh conversation ever going ahead with ryden uh i i certainly didn't hear if that was the case
00:59:43 the case um no is the answer to that thank you did he ever make any similar comments to you say outside of this meeting at telcotz about the number of tall buildings with
00:59:55 about the number of tall buildings with pe called acm on them in the uk as opposed to the fr product
01:00:01 product no i can't recall i can't ever recall him talking to me about any pe product it's very difficult if you can understand to tell the difference between a pr sorry a p and an fr product when it's on
01:00:13 sorry a p and an fr product when it's on the building so that would be very surprising yes but at the child cox estate mr verla would have known it was acmpe if he was trying to deal with a delamination issue
01:00:25 trying to deal with a delamination issue wouldn't he no not necessarily the core is a very similar
01:00:30 similar uh color you would unless we've taken it away for testing or taking the panel off and actually said on the back of the panel that it was pe it's very difficult to tell the difference between a p
01:00:41 tell the difference between a p and fr when it's in situ that's that's my opinion i mean that's i i can't understand how he would have known that was pe
01:00:47 was pe just by looking at the building i see and now i'd like to ask you about another meeting in the uk uh in august 2015. can we go to meta401884
01:01:07 so this visit uh just to introduce it relates to a visit by nicholas remy in august 2015 so here what we see is claude verla is
01:01:19 so here what we see is claude verla is sending to you cc'ing mr remy on 27th of august 2015 a visit report that's the subject and the attachments contain a visit
01:01:31 and the attachments contain a visit report do you remember uh nicholas remy coming to the uk in august 2015 for a visit i do remember nicholas remy coming over uh vaguely
01:01:42 uh vaguely in 2015 when i first started with a with a company
01:01:47 a company but i can't recall why he was coming to the uk it would have been a technical issue of some type let's look at the attachment this is a visit report it's a
01:02:04 meta401885
01:02:09 and this is a document entitled claim report 129 15 and it's about the media city uk residential block a do you see that i do yes i remember it now
01:02:21 yes i remember it now yeah you can recall nicholas remy's visit can you to this i can yes for the media city yes and where in the uk was this development can you help us i think it was in manchester area it was
01:02:32 i think it was in manchester area it was in the manchester area and under fixings and systems we can see that the product here is on 55 it says rainbow five five four p e do you see that i do
01:02:44 five five four p e do you see that i do yes
01:02:45 yes and it says the year of production was 2009
01:02:50 2009 and the product is described as smoke silver metallic underneath that that's correct
01:02:58 and then underneath that if we can go down the page under fixing systems we can see that the this was a cassette system that was
01:03:09 this was a cassette system that was um
01:03:12 that was installed on this project we can see that curved cassettes do you see that
01:03:17 that i do yes and there are some close-up pictures of the cassettes themselves and if we can go down to the second page
01:03:27 is that media city the the building that we see on the left there
01:03:33 media city residential block a uh the the i i can't be too sure i can't 100
01:03:40 100 be sure but the two pictures at the bottom certainly look familiar yeah so this would appear to be a tall high-rise building yes it looks to be yes yes and what someone's done in the labels on
01:03:52 and what someone's done in the labels on the right-hand side is um indicate where there were problems with the bended cassettes and delamination do you have that yes i do yeah and on the third page
01:04:03 yes i do yeah and on the third page we can see there's some more comments about delamination all the bended cassettes are delaminating under issues and remarks do you see that
01:04:14 under issues and remarks do you see that yes i do yes and then if we can look at the bottom of this page as a conclusion
01:04:25 it's as the traceability of the panels delivered for the project has been done no defect
01:04:31 no defect in conformity with our standard production then in the next paragraph the delamination occurs only in the upper and bottom curve cassettes and then at the end of that conclusion it says one can raise the question of
01:04:42 it says one can raise the question of the panel's transformation method that shouldn't be used for elements installed close to the sea water
01:04:49 water and then nicholas remy is there so he would appear in this report to be raising a question about how close to some water this building was do you remember that
01:05:00 this building was do you remember that i remember vaguely yes so it's about the sea water
01:05:04 sea water it was in manchester so i'm not sure um if it was that near to the sea but i do remember yes that uh that that being mentioned and for the transcript we don't need to turn this up
01:05:15 turn this up it's m e t a four zeros one seven six three
01:05:19 three shortly after this you attach this visit report
01:05:23 report and you send it to lee davis on the 28th of august 2015 copying in claude verla nicholas remy and peter frolic now my question for you is during this visit
01:05:36 my question for you is during this visit did mr remy raise any concerns about the suitability of pe cassettes on this high-rise building from a fire safety perspective no there was absolutely no mention from
01:05:47 no there was absolutely no mention from what i can understand as you you know that the project i didn't have any dealings with initially this was a project that was done way before my time uh but uh he didn't mention anything
01:05:59 uh but uh he didn't mention anything about that product being on that the uh the building yes but nicholas remy and indeed claude verla having received this report would have been aware that the media city building was a high-rise building
01:06:10 city building was a high-rise building clad with
01:06:11 clad with rayna bond p e cassettes that's right isn't it that's that's correct yes yeah just finally now some very brief questions about after the fire is it right that on the
01:06:22 after the fire is it right that on the 26th of june 2017 arconic ceased its global sales of rayna bond with a pe core for any architectural use i can't be sure of the dates but yes
01:06:34 use i can't be sure of the dates but yes we did
01:06:35 we did this yeah we stopped producing renault and what was your understanding about why that was done why were all pe sales stopped for any architectural use
01:06:47 architectural use i can only surmise after the fire they realized that perhaps that wasn't the right
01:06:52 right materials to put on the building on a high-rise building but that would be my i'm just surmising i i don't know for sure it was never mentioned so you were never told what
01:07:04 mentioned so you were never told what the reason was for that no it just ceased
01:07:10 mr chairman those are all of my questions um if we could maybe have a short break there haven't been many further questions so far so i would hope that maybe we could have a break of
01:07:21 maybe we could have a break of perhaps 10 minutes well i think we'll combine this with the afternoon break mr meeker just so you understand when council gets to the end of questions we have to have a break to
01:07:32 questions we have to have a break to enable those who are not uh physically present or even virtually present to raise further matters they'd like to ask about
01:07:41 about of course so we do that but we we're getting close to the time when we'd have a break during the afternoon anyway so we'll combine the two
01:07:49 two um it's just coming up to ten past three so we'll come back at 25 past three
01:07:57 three we'll see if there any more questions for you and uh with any luck you won't be here much longer okay thank you sir and please remember not to talk about your evidence over the break of course good all right thank you very
01:08:08 of course good all right thank you very much 25 past three then please thank you
01:24:59 well welcome back everyone we'll now see whether miss grange has any more questions for mr meekins uh mr meekins are you there i am here sir yes
01:25:08 sir yes and you can see me and hear me all right i hope i can hear you clearly and see you clearly yes good thank you very much well then we'll see whether miss grange has any more questions for you yes strange so german no i'm happy to
01:25:19 yes strange so german no i'm happy to report that we have no further questions for mr meekins thank you that's almost a first not quite at first but all right well thank you very much
01:25:30 but all right well thank you very much anyway well mr meekins um somewhat to my surprise as you can tell there are no further questions we need to put to you okay so um it just remains i think for me to thank
01:25:41 it just remains i think for me to thank you very much for being available to give us your evidence i'm sorry it took rather longer than you were originally led to expect but that's the way some things go from time to time
01:25:52 things go from time to time anyway we're very grateful to you it's been helpful to hear what you have to tell us
01:25:56 tell us and uh that's the end as far as you're concerned thank you sir thank you and hopefully
01:26:01 hopefully the answers are given have been helpful for your inquiry yes thank you very much thank you very much right goodbye
01:26:11 well we have another witness who is uh waiting to be called but we can't actually go straight to him because we need to have a short break for making the necessary arrangements first so
01:26:24 the necessary arrangements first so we'll have a break now i think probably not more than for five perhaps ten minutes and we'll resume as soon as we're ready to do so thank you very much
01:50:14 welcome back everyone our next witness is going to be mr claude schmidt the president of arconic i think is that right mr millett yes mr chairman it is uh i just want to
01:50:26 yes mr chairman it is uh i just want to say one or two things before i begin take taking mr schmidt's evidence uh in order to explain how he proposed to address questions about translation
01:50:37 address questions about translation yes smith's solicitors dla piper have told us
01:50:41 told us that his english is not good enough to enable him to feel confident enough to be able to answer our questions in english in order therefore to address that problem we will take the following steps
01:50:53 problem we will take the following steps first mr schmidt will give his evidence in french through interpreters we have two independent and extremely experienced professional interpreters to whom we are
01:51:04 professional interpreters to whom we are very grateful we proposed simultaneous translation but arconic opposed it on the grounds that it risked losing transparency and accuracy and so reluctantly we've
01:51:15 and accuracy and so reluctantly we've agreed that translation will not be simultaneous but sequential so that both the french and the english translate
01:51:22 translate can be heard that will have maximum transparency but i'm afraid it will mean a lack of flow and somewhat slower speeds i would ask everybody to bear with us
01:51:35 i would ask everybody to bear with us secondly when going to an iconic witness statement i will show mr schmidt the french version of that statement where it is available and i will display or ask to have
01:51:47 and i will display or ask to have displayed the english version at the same time i'll also ask him to read the paragraph of the french version and i will read out the english passages i intend to ask him about
01:51:58 i intend to ask him about both versions will be displayed using the split screen function third when taking mr schmidt to a document i will show him the french original where it exists
01:52:09 original where it exists and at the same time display the english translation again using the split screen function in the majority of cases of french language emails english language versions
01:52:20 language versions do exist done by dla piper and they are contained in the same exhibit usually a few pages away fourthly where the document is an
01:52:32 fourthly where the document is an english original there are often translations available which will again show uh will be shown using the split screen function
01:52:42 function those translations have been done either by the metropolitan police or by dla piper or by the inquiry fifthly in cases where i wish to take mr schmidt to an english language
01:52:54 schmidt to an english language document including witness statements for which there is no french translation i will ask the interpreter to translate for him the passages i want to put to him
01:53:05 him and finally our two interpreters will switch places every 20 to 30 minutes or so there will be no break as they do so they will also be seen on screen
01:53:15 screen only to take the interpreter's oath and thereafter will not be visible so mr chairman that is how we propose subject to you and the panel to proceed
01:53:26 subject to you and the panel to proceed without further ado i would now then call mr schmidt well thank you very much mr millet i think the first step is for me to say hello to our interpreters and invite
01:53:37 say hello to our interpreters and invite them to
01:53:37 them to make the affirmation before they undertake their work so can i first of all ask miss kennedy is is she there can she hear me and see me
01:53:51 are you there miss kennedy ah i can hear you but i think you're muted
01:53:58 muted there i'm i'm unmuted now i can hear you and see you thank you very much can i begin by apologizing for having kept you waiting all afternoon we've hoped don't worry get to you straight after lunch but
01:54:09 lunch but life being what it is we haven't managed it so um
01:54:12 it so um thank you for for being available to help us
01:54:16 help us do you have a copy of the affirmation to be made by an interpreter on a screen in front of you on a card i don't but i do now yes so would you
01:54:27 i don't but i do now yes so would you like me to read it out i would please yes i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that i will well and faithfully interpret
01:54:34 interpret and true explanation make of all such matters and things as shall be required of me according to the best of my skill and understanding thank you very much indeed and i'm going to say hello to
01:54:45 to say hello to our other interpreter mr de las rice yes good morning so good afternoon you repeat i don't know whether you heard what i said to your colleague but
01:54:56 colleague but let me repeat the apology for having kept you sitting around all afternoon waiting for this moment not at all i mean it was it's nobody's these things happen they do i'm afraid um
01:55:07 um do you have a copy of the affirmation in front of you somewhere in a second i think it will be on the screen yes it is shall i read it would you mind thank you i do solemnly sincerely and truly
01:55:18 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that i will well and faithfully interpret and true explanation make of all such matters and things that shall be required of me according to the best of my skill and
01:55:30 according to the best of my skill and understanding thank you very much indeed well having uh introduced the interpreters i think we can now go over to
01:55:38 to say hello to mr schmidt and uh mr schmidt
01:55:42 schmidt are you there can you see me and can you hear me
01:55:48 good
01:55:52 hello mr schmidt
01:55:55 i'm yes i'm here i'm just waiting for the constellation sorry well i'm going you can see me and we can at least talking to this extent
01:56:08 all right thank you very much
01:56:12 no mr schmidt i gather that you would like to
01:56:15 like to affirm um do you have uh somewhere in front of you probably on the screen a copy of the affirmations
01:56:29 the screen a copy of the affirmations yes yes i have it thank you very much would you please then make the affirmation in french as you see it on the screen
01:56:52 thank you very much
01:56:55 before mr millet asks you some questions can i just run through one or two small matters with you
01:57:14 can you confirm that you are alone in the room from which you're giving evidence
01:57:22 uh
01:57:27 thank you can you confirm that you do not have any documents or other materials with you
01:57:40 and finally can you confirm that your mobile phone is in another room and that you don't have any other electronic device with you which is capable of receiving messages
01:58:03 now i should tell you that um your legal representatives are in the virtual hearing room
01:58:16 they will be following your evidence they will
01:58:30 but otherwise i've asked them to keep their microphones on mute and their cameras switched off
01:58:43 i hope there aren't going to be any problems with sound or vision
01:58:52 but if there are technical difficulties please bear with us and we will sort them out as soon as
01:59:00 possible
01:59:05 and if you have any difficulties or you need to attract my attention please wave your hand or do something else suitable is
01:59:20 now i apologize for the fact that we've kept you waiting so long this afternoon
01:59:29 i'm afraid we overran with the previous witness
01:59:35 and i apologize for the inconvenience
01:59:40 um because we're starting later than we expected we shall not have a break between now and the end of the afternoon
01:59:55 is there anything you'd like to ask me or bring to my attention
02:00:11 no i'm ready thank you for the information good thank you very much and thank you all right mr millet to put some questions to you hello
02:00:22 yes thank you very much thank you mr chairman
02:00:25 chairman merci mr president mr schmidt thank you for attending this public inquiry to give your evidence to you mr schmidt participate
02:00:37 mr schmidt participate in public affairs you're going to give your evidence through an interpreter the interpreter will translate my questions into french and your answers into english
02:01:03 statements and documents in french and english at the same
02:01:36 [Music] i confirmed that i didn't know them until i met them last week
02:01:43 if you have any difficulty understanding any of the questions i ask you please say and i will ask the question again or put it in a different way
02:02:03 now mr schmidt you have made three witness statements is that correct mr schmidt for the position
02:02:13 yes the statements and the documents i'm going to
02:02:23 can we first go please to your first witness statement at met3075418 dated the 17th of august 2017
02:02:44 seconds madam interpreter i should just say there's no need to translate the the numerator that's very kind of you you said
02:02:57 this is your first statement of the 17th of august 2017 and it's 10 pages long i believe
02:03:07 can you confirm that that is your
02:03:12 statement
02:03:32 i imagine it is my um witness statement uh
02:03:35 uh i can't confirm 100 that that is that one but i did make a witness a statement to the uk to the british police on that date yes well i wonder if i can
02:03:46 on that date yes well i wonder if i can help you further by asking you to look at the first page of that statement and seeing if you recognize it
02:04:08 a
02:04:15 i understand you made this statement in english
02:04:18 english and then it was read to you in french and you confirmed its accuracy is that good
02:04:37 [Music]
02:04:49 yes i had the support of an advisor who translated it for me so yes
02:04:58 can we look at met three zeros four eight three three one at page three please
02:05:11 now this is your second statement which you provided in french on the 10th of september 2019
02:05:21 2019 is that correct
02:05:32 yes that's it is it right that this statement
02:05:35 statement has been provided to the inquiry in parts
02:05:39 parts and what you see on the screen is the first 20 pages
02:05:44 that deposition rate is
02:05:57 i don't know what was submitted to the inquiry right can you confirm that this is your statement at least part of your statement
02:06:10 visual confirming yes i confirm and you can see the signature date or signature and date they're the 10th of september 2019.
02:06:28 that is my signature we can keep this document on the screen please and and have up also met3048338
02:06:39 and and have up also met3048338 you see the second part of your second witness statement pages 21-48
02:06:57 you see there's a signature at the bottom of
02:07:00 bottom of the page on the right is that your signature yes
02:07:06 yes and if we go to the last page of this document please
02:07:37 have you read the english version of the statement translated into french to you recently
02:07:52 questions
02:07:58 are you talking about the first witness statement or the second witness statement i didn't quite understand the question
02:08:03 question the first witness is yes i read it can we now go please to met3048344
02:08:14 met3048344 oh my god
02:08:23 oh my god this is i believe your third witness statement
02:08:26 statement also dated the 10th of september 2019 is that right
02:08:35 yes is that your signature
02:08:39 yes and the subject matter is the loss and restoration of data from your laptop is that right
02:08:55 into the public domain the certified translation of this document please at met 30 is 53184 large
02:09:12 now i'm showing you the french have you read this witness statement recently you
02:09:23 as i understand it mr schmidt there are two
02:09:26 two independent translations of your second and third
02:09:30 and third statements
02:09:41 solicitors and one arranged by the metropolitan police
02:09:52 those watching understand i am going to be taking you only to the translations arranged by our comics solicitors
02:10:10 yes thank you i have shown you three witness statements you say that the contents of your witness statements are true
02:10:31 have you discussed your statements or the evidence that you're going to give to this inquiry in answer to my questions with
02:11:05 essentially last week did you discuss the subject matter the substantive subject matter of your evidence
02:11:23 we is what was the substantive discussion what was the substance of your evidence that you discussed with your
02:11:31 your solicitors
02:11:36 um [Music]
02:11:49 [Music]
02:11:56 well essentially we just um we just went through
02:11:59 through my evidence to make sure that i had it well in mind could you tell us please what topics you discussed with your solicitors
02:12:25 [Music]
02:12:32 um essentially but not only uh subjects related to fire tests and the bba certificate
02:12:42 did your solicitors tell you how to answer the questions they thought i might ask on those topics
02:12:57 sorry just just a moment um i think in fairness the witness uh i just to remind mr millet and for the benefit of others too uh to
02:13:08 and for the benefit of others too uh to to remember the range of protection that a witness has or legal professional privilege
02:13:19 someone ought to explain to mr schmidt maybe i'm the one to do it that he does not have to uh answer questions
02:13:27 questions about advice
02:13:55 i i understand well and i want to answer the question because i want to clarify it
02:14:00 it good yeah
02:14:08 okay [Music]
02:14:13 so they've never directed me and they've never given me any kind of advice with regard to the way in which i should answer the questions
02:14:23 in addition to the certification the class certificates and the bba certificates what other topics discuss certifications
02:14:38 okay
02:15:04 there's the discussion i may have had with claude vale
02:15:22 and really essentially these are the topics we talked about
02:15:28 very well i'd like to ask you about your role uh at our comic can we please to your second witness statement
02:15:40 second witness statement met three zeros five three one eight seven at page six
02:16:14 i'm going to read paragraph 12 in english
02:16:18 english but please read paragraph 12 in french to yourself while i do so
02:16:30 much you say with regard to my background i have a degree in metallurgy from louie university france my first job when i started in 1985
02:16:43 my first job when i started in 1985 was as a production manager for my own sa a bike company i am based at the mercsheim site referred to in paragraph six above in 1991 i was appointed as the general
02:16:54 in 1991 i was appointed as the general manager for reynold lux and between 2006 and 2007 i was production manager focusing on china and a new plant which was proposed there at the time
02:17:05 which was proposed there at the time during that period i was not based in china but i did travel there i was appointed as managing director of aap sas
02:17:12 aap sas which i should call archonic in august 2007
02:17:16 2007 and have held the role of president of aap sas since june 2010 i have held the role of vice president of arconic architectural global since june 2016
02:17:29 since june 2016 so i have questions my first question is
02:17:36 until 2016 is it right that your company was known
02:17:40 was known as alcoa
02:17:50 yes in 2016 is it right that the company changed its name to arconic and became known as our colleague
02:18:08 um [Music]
02:18:12 [Music] yes i'm not too sure about the date but it was around that time absolutely we can see that your background and training is in metallurgy formations
02:18:28 you agree that that gives you or gave you some degree of understanding of technical matters in relation to our conics products
02:18:45 yes is it right that since august 2007 you were the most senior person at our comic
02:18:53 comic at mercksheim
02:18:59 and marx
02:19:17 sorry i'm explaining my interpreting a bit better
02:19:27 [Music] yes i was the director so therefore yeah i did have the highest role in maxime
02:19:36 you tell us that since june 2010 you were president of our comic can you explain what that role was
02:19:46 uh
02:20:01 i'm not president of arkhanique i'm president of aapscs
02:20:11 of france uh
02:20:14 representing
02:20:18 and it's a question of legislation and in france i'm the legal representative of aap svs
02:20:31 and that's the reason why i've got that title of
02:20:35 title of president president who was the president
02:20:39 president of arconic before you took over in june 2010
02:20:54 and i'm not even sure that there was one since june 2016 you tell us that you held a role in global archonic uh
02:21:06 in global archonic uh in with a business in the united states is that a separate corporate entity
02:21:32 it's a different legal entity a distinct legal entity did your role as president of arconic or aa aap sas
02:21:43 president of arconic or aa aap sas continue in parallel with your role at global archonic donkeys
02:22:00 yes are you still president of aap sas exclusive president
02:22:09 yes are you still its managing director based at merck's time managing director representative
02:22:18 yes in relation to the global archonic business in the usa
02:22:25 usa did you report to diana perria
02:22:29 concern global academy
02:22:34 department
02:22:38 it depends on the time considered the period considered from 2016 to the middle of 2017.
02:22:48 period
02:23:00 yes i think so yes after you obtained your role in the global archonic business in june 2016
02:23:12 2016 were you obliged to consult with diana perria about
02:23:39 [Music]
02:23:46 yes we had a sort of hierarchical relationship diana was my boss if you like
02:23:53 like before june 2016 did you have a boss in relation to the kinds of decisions that diana perria had oversight of
02:24:06 that diana perria had oversight of don kavanaugh
02:24:26 i was yes i was always reporting to somebody within the organization between 2007 and 2010 so who did you report
02:24:40 reporting
02:24:53 could you spell his name please
02:25:09 and the surname b-e-l-n-a-p
02:25:14 and what was his role
02:25:25 and what was his role he was in charge of aap at the global level
02:25:32 and what kind of decisions
02:25:42 the decision
02:25:53 the decision [Music]
02:25:59 [Music]
02:26:05 well essentially it was discussion about development strategic direction for uh products
02:26:14 aliac imparted the reporting
02:26:26 and part of the discussion also had to do with the reporting development financial results
02:26:36 and did the same apply between 2010 and 2016 that you reported to mr craig belna yes
02:26:46 says
02:27:03 uh no because mr belknap left i can't remember exactly at my time 2009 2010 or maybe even 2011. did anybody replace him in that
02:27:14 did anybody replace him in that hierarchy
02:27:27 glenn morrison for a while i was direct reporting with glenn morrison where was glenn morrison based
02:27:38 based morrison norcross
02:27:51 it was in north cross in georgia
02:27:55 is that georgia united states
02:28:00 yes and was mr morrison an executive of aap sas or another
02:28:20 he was president of the division the bcs bcs
02:28:27 bcs what is bcs it's equal bcs building on construction system uh it means building and construction systems
02:28:38 systems of which
02:28:46 are you drawing a distinction between aap sas
02:28:50 aap sas and archonic ex
02:29:06 globality
02:29:20 in fact uh arconic is the global organization if you like and at the time under that big global name there were different divisions basis division
02:29:33 basis division and bcs was part of that structure
02:29:44 so it's mostly concentrating on building precisely
02:29:56 and aap was part of the division would either mr belnack or mr morrison get involved in any detailed technical discussions with you about any particular products
02:30:16 development
02:30:25 [Music]
02:30:38 [Music] well they've always been interested
02:30:50 well they've always been interested in a general way about the development of products but as to say whether they had a very detailed view of these products no we couldn't say that
02:31:01 that did you ever discuss fire safety or the fire performance of rayno bond products either with mr belnack
02:31:09 belnack or with mr morrison question security
02:31:23 yes certainly have you ever discussed the fire performance and fire classification of reyno bond 55 p.e
02:31:35 or mr morrison
02:31:38 the performance of the classification
02:31:54 uh
02:32:05 [Music]
02:32:22 well it's difficult to explain but uh let's say
02:32:25 let's say globally yes because uh during the period
02:32:29 period from 2007 2008 we started to present developments we were interested in for a2
02:32:39 [Music]
02:32:50 um
02:32:54 [Music] and of course if you placed yourself in that framework in order to get the potential investment we needed
02:33:04 we needed it we had to be able to explain what we wanted to to be doing and the interest it had
02:33:18 on
02:33:28 but whether we were going far in the detail
02:33:31 detail of fire performance fire certification no i don't think we did that did you ever have caused to discuss the vba
02:33:42 have caused to discuss the vba certificate in relation to raynaud 65 panels with either mr bellnap or latterly with mr morrison
02:33:53 or latterly with mr morrison situation
02:34:11 i'm looking at the clock i've probably got another 10 minutes before i can arrive at a very good natural break um let me just check with uh mr schmidt mr
02:34:22 let me just check with uh mr schmidt mr schmidt
02:34:23 schmidt mr millet is telling me that he would like to continue for another 10 minutes or so
02:34:28 or so would that be acceptable to you mr schmidt
02:34:42 yes absolutely fine good thank you very much
02:34:46 much well they want mr millet another 10 minutes or so to get to the end of the subject matter
02:34:56 grateful mr chairman um mr schmidt can you please be shown your second witness statement
02:35:01 statement in the french page nine paragraph
02:35:10 thirteen
02:35:26 you say my role involves overseeing all aspects
02:35:29 aspects of the business of aap sas including operational logistical sales and technical issues by this i mean that the senior management team reports to me on such matters
02:35:40 matters i'm not involved in the day-to-day discussions which take place but relevant points should be elevated to me as necessary and i wouldn't generally receive updates as the senior management monthly meetings
02:35:50 meetings which were held at the mercs heim site and which from 2018 are now held on a weekly basis would you say that you had oversight of
02:36:01 would you say that you had oversight of all
02:36:01 all of the business of aap sas at merck's time
02:36:17 do you accept that you from august 2007 were ultimately responsible for all important decisions taken about the manufacture and sale
02:36:29 taken about the manufacture and sale of products made at mertime take apart
02:36:49 55.
02:36:55 yes can we look at page 20 of the statement
02:36:59 statement in french please and 16 of the statements in english
02:37:11 in the english at the top of the page is paragraph 48 and you say and this is on page 20 in the french you look at page 20 in the french please we can have both up
02:37:22 we can have both up at the same time
02:37:30 you say if we did uh you say i i would also note
02:37:41 paragraph 48 so in the french you'll need to
02:37:44 need to look at the very bottom of the paragraph
02:37:55 which should be noted is that is that what you're referring to sir it should be noted that in my experience etc exactly i would also note that information may have been presented
02:38:06 information may have been presented to management on specific occasions for example in relation to investment decisions in respect of fr or a2 investment projects
02:38:26 etc
02:38:49 yes now looking at that mr verlais in his evidence says and i'll just ask you to translate by the interpreter and the role generally assumed by the
02:39:00 and the role generally assumed by the technical team
02:39:05 general technique was to inform
02:39:14 do you agree that that was that the role generally assumed by the technical team
02:39:29 [Music]
02:39:55 [Music]
02:40:02 well i mean it depends a bit what you mean by
02:40:05 mean by training or education but what is true in any case is that the technical team gave several presentations during management meetings to explain
02:40:16 management meetings to explain the technical elements of product and development
02:40:29 [Music]
02:40:41 [Music] but i mean it's important to realize that
02:40:47 that the frequency wasn't so high it wasn't uh
02:40:50 uh once every two or three months it probably happened once a year or maybe once every two years did that uh those presentations
02:41:02 did that uh those presentations include information about fire testing or fire certification presentation
02:41:15 yes is it right that occasionally there would need to be decisions made about
02:41:22 about what to do with testing and certification
02:41:46 [Music] but it wasn't necessarily in the same discussion the same framework
02:41:54 what kinds of decisions did claude velez have authority to make without getting authority from you
02:42:04 you celtic decision
02:42:10 reported
02:42:18 well it's important to mention that claude verle didn't report to me let me ask the question one more time what decisions could claude vale make uh without anybody's authority
02:42:38 references
02:42:43 [Music]
02:42:49 it's a very general question
02:42:53 could claude verlet for example make decisions about whether to have a firetech product or have a fire classification for a product without seeking authority from anybody
02:43:05 without seeking authority from anybody more senior for
02:43:28 [Music]
02:43:36 no because i mean even for something just like a fire test do you need a financial
02:43:42 financial wherewithal and therefore he needed some agreement
02:43:45 agreement to do that whose agreement would be needed
02:43:58 [Music]
02:44:02 i think he would have called upon the commercial director because in a large extent it had to do with the marketing budget and who was the commercial director in
02:44:15 and who was the commercial director in the years
02:44:16 the years you
02:44:41 there must have been about three over the period 2005 2017 yes
02:44:56 there was somebody called gishaiker [Music]
02:45:14 i'm not too sure but i think maybe in fact it's 2012. it is 2012.
02:45:26 uh then there was alain flacco we arrived in 2012.
02:45:35 [Music]
02:45:48 maybe in 2016 or 2017 and then at the end there was probably somebody called lionel
02:45:55 lionel so these this is the role which i think in the translation has been called the director of sales and marketing in the english versions of your statements
02:46:08 marketing
02:46:15 now what kinds of technical decisions would be
02:46:18 would be escalated to you to make a
02:46:34 technical decisions about what
02:46:48 [Music] you mean coming up from claude valley's team or where did they come from well that's my question let me try it again what kinds of technical decisions would come up to
02:47:00 of technical decisions would come up to you for you to make
02:47:23 [Music]
02:47:34 well once again i mean if there were technical questions belonging to claude vale's team i don't believe that there were technical questions uh escalating up to me
02:47:46 very well we may look at that answer as we go through further questions
02:47:58 mr chairman i think it's probably now that we've arrived at a natural break for the day yes well that seems a very good point then
02:48:07 then mr schmidt uh we're going to stop there for the afternoon now we're going to have a break i have
02:48:19 now we're going to have a break i have to ask you please not to talk to anyone else including your lawyers about your evidence or anything to do with it
02:48:37 yes of course yes thank you and i will remind you of that every time we have a break in the evidence but if for some reason i forget please bear it in mind
02:48:55 yes so we will stop now and we'll start again at 10 o'clock english time tomorrow time tomorrow
02:49:24 mercy
02:49:41 you