Vince Meakins from Arconic gives evidence about Reynabond ACM panels, BBA certification, fire classifications, and awareness of PE versus FR core products.
00:00:05 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing as before i'm joined by my fellow panel members miss taria istafan and mr ali akbar
00:00:16 ali akbar good morning good morning good morning everyone good morning now before we go back to our witness to
00:00:27 now before we go back to our witness to for today who's going to be mr meekins can i just remind those of you who are not actively involved
00:00:33 involved in the hearing to keep your cameras and microphones switched off at all times please
00:00:39 please unless for some reason you need to intervene
00:00:44 intervene well we can now go and uh back to mr meekins who's going to continue giving evidence this morning are you there mr meekins i am good morning
00:00:53 morning good morning nice to see you um you can see me and hear me clearly can you i can sir yes very clearly thank you very much um we don't need to do the affirmation
00:01:05 we don't need to do the affirmation because you did that on thursday but i think we probably should just do the housekeeping can you confirm that you're in the room from which you're giving evidence on your own i am lord thank you can you confirm that
00:01:17 i am lord thank you can you confirm that you don't have any other documents or materials with you i don't thank you and can you confirm that your
00:01:24 that your mobile phone is in in another room and that you don't have any other electronic device
00:01:29 device with you that is capable of receiving messages i can good thank you very much well the system is the same as it was last week your legal representatives are as it
00:01:40 your legal representatives are as it were in their virtual hearing room following proceedings uh if we have problems with sound or vision we'll have a short break while we resolve them but i hope we won't and uh if you need to attract my
00:01:52 and uh if you need to attract my attention for any reason please just put your hand up or indicate in some way um is there anything that you'd like to raise or
00:02:02 raise or any questions you have before we continue uh not at this stage right thank you very much well in that case i'll invite the strange to continue putting questions to you yes great
00:02:15 yes thank you mr chairman good morning mr meekins good morning now when we broke off last thursday i had just been asking you about whether you recall
00:02:26 about whether you recall a visit to merck time in france in july 2015
00:02:30 2015 and you said that you remembered attending a sales meeting at that time you said that because you were new to the company and just a few weeks into the job you were a little
00:02:41 the job you were a little apprehensive at the time do you remember telling us that yes i do yeah if we just look before we pick up on some documents which we believe were presented to that
00:02:52 which we believe were presented to that meeting i just want to look at what you say
00:02:54 say in paragraph seven of your witness statement on page two this is m e t three zeros five three one six four page two
00:03:08 and if we look at paragraph 7 then the second half of the page i just want to pick it up in the second sentence in the second line you say that i did from time to time attend
00:03:20 i did from time to time attend internal iconic training sessions which will have included technical presentations given by claude verla
00:03:28 verla who manages our connect technical sales support team these training sessions were typically delivered by powerpoint presentations coupled with a talk about the products offered by arconic
00:03:40 offered by arconic i did not remember the details of these training sessions but they would not have gone into detail about building regulations or other specific technical requirements for the uk market they may have touched on fire
00:03:52 they may have touched on fire performance at a high level but i do not recall any training about specific fire performance requirements in the uk so so that's what you told us in your witness statement can we just look at some documents now
00:04:04 look at some documents now we can go to met three zeroes five three one five eight underscore p07
00:04:14 p07 and i want to look at page 107.
00:04:23 so this appears to be um it's in a pack of documents that are all together
00:04:31 together a technical news presentation by mr claude verla and we can see it's dated the 2nd of july 2015 at the bottom of that
00:04:42 of that slide do you see that there
00:04:47 yes yes i do yeah this was two months into my employment with the company if i remember
00:04:51 remember so it would have been about eight weeks yes yes i understand that um but as we just discussed you do recall going to mexico in july
00:05:02 going to mexico in july as i mentioned yeah i vaguely vaguely remember going to murksheim it was it was my first uh time in murksheim so yes yes i vaguely remember it okay and then if we go on to the next page
00:05:15 and then if we go on to the next page page 108
00:05:16 page 108 so this is a technical news presentation and at 108 we can see the topics that are covered here
00:05:23 here it says it's 2015's news and technical requests how to do so it appears that these are topics that mr verlo is presenting
00:05:36 mr verlo is presenting now if we then go to page 109 of the document
00:05:43 we can see there's a heading certifications and technical approvals and he's dealing with the rayno lux and the reyna bond
00:05:54 the reyna bond products below that and then at page 110 we move on to that
00:06:04 we can see there there's a heading limitation for perforations and then at the bottom of that um text in the middle of the page it says
00:06:13 says new tests launched on raynabon blackcore and raynabond fr trying to follow the new requested designs do you see that there i do
00:06:26 do you see that there i do and you've told us in your statement that you were aware that the color of the core for acmpe was changed in july 2015 that's right isn't it
00:06:37 2015 that's right isn't it i don't remember saying july 2015 but the call was changed throughout my employment at uh iconic yeah at some stage but i
00:06:48 at uh iconic yeah at some stage but i don't remember it being in 2015 i just started with the company so uh it would have been at some stage i see
00:06:56 see looking at this does it appear likely that it was at this sales meeting in july 2015
00:07:02 july 2015 that you learned about that change to the black core i if i'm perfectly honest i don't remember this slide or this presentation whatsoever so this is like the first
00:07:13 whatsoever so this is like the first time i've ever read it it was obviously there but due to i guess nerves or some you know as my first sales meeting i hadn't really taken on board i don't remember any of this
00:07:27 i don't remember any of this i see well let's just keep going through it to see whether any of it jogs any other memories if we go to page 113
00:07:37 there's a heading competition products analyze
00:07:41 analyze and there's a target there to update the competition database in order to compare our products to others direct or indirect competitors
00:07:52 others direct or indirect competitors do you see that yes i do yeah and then the next few slides deal with communication with the technical team if we look at page 114
00:08:04 there's a heading there it says two good and efficient ways of communication and then we see those two ways set out in green in this slide front sales or internal sales through to
00:08:17 front sales or internal sales through to the technical department with the arrow and then key accounts through to the technical department do you see that i do and and this
00:08:28 i do and and this continues this theme continues in the next slide at page 115 we can see then it says the non-efficient ways of communication it would appear with
00:08:39 of communication it would appear with the technical department and it appears to be saying in this slide that customers distributors architects general contractors engineering
00:08:50 general contractors engineering departments going straight through to the technical department is is it would appear something that's being discouraged do you see that i do yes can you remember that message
00:09:02 i do yes can you remember that message being conveyed to you uh during this technical this technical presentation or at the sales meeting during this technical presentation i don't remember any of these slides
00:09:14 don't remember any of these slides however i do remember later on in my employment uh the technical department were not so happy about contractors fabricators contin contacting them directly
00:09:25 contacting them directly they would rather go through uh as a sales
00:09:29 sales person or an external guy yeah but i don't remember those slides at all unfortunately i see remember i want to go on within the slide pack now and look at page 118
00:09:42 if we can keep pull up the same document page 118.
00:09:49 page 118. so this is part of the same pack and this is titled here technical quiz uh and we can also we can see that it relates to the sales meeting on the 2nd of july
00:10:00 to the sales meeting on the 2nd of july 2015
00:10:02 2015 from the smaller writing at the bottom of this page and then there are some initials there pvo
00:10:11 pvo do those initials stand for philippe vonthron
00:10:15 vonthron i i can't be sure i wouldn't know no i'm sorry
00:10:19 sorry are they likely to have been philippe vonthron he was in ward wasn't he could well have been yeah sorry for talking yeah it could well have been
00:10:27 have been yeah and it appears that this presentation was also part of the sales meeting
00:10:34 meeting from july 2015 and if we look at page 119 one slide on
00:10:44 we can again see there's a date june 2015 at the bottom of this slide pack and we can see some information about who within the technical department is managing what
00:10:57 department is managing what do you see that i do yes and what we appear to be being told is that cwe claude verla is managing certain things product
00:11:08 is managing certain things product system
00:11:08 system certification regulatory watch with the blue line
00:11:11 blue line and then for example philly vonthron at the bottom of the page with the green lines
00:11:16 lines managing other aspects of technical teamwork including fire certifications can you see that okay again do you recall receiving an explanation
00:11:28 do you recall receiving an explanation at this sales meeting as to what the different roles were of the those within the technical department
00:11:37 this was obviously at the sales meeting this these slides i just cannot remember the slides i'm afraid so
00:11:44 afraid so it was too early on for me it was a new position maybe i just didn't take it in fully because it was a new sales meet for me so i can't remember sorry
00:11:55 sorry i appreciate you don't remember these particular slides that's your evidence but do you remember receiving presentations from the technical team at that july 15 sales meeting no i don't know
00:12:08 sales meeting no i don't know i honestly can't remember presentations that took place at that meeting they clearly did but they're not clear in my mind enough for me to say i i fully remember
00:12:19 enough for me to say i i fully remember the presentations because i'm afraid i really can't remember them being presented they obviously were but i don't remember them i see if we can go now to page 120 one page on
00:12:32 if we can go now to page 120 one page on within that presentation the technical quiz presentation
00:12:40 what this presentation appears to do in the following slides is ask a question and then give an indication of what the answers were and so it would appear that either this was done as some form of quiz or as some
00:12:52 was done as some form of quiz or as some form of presentation
00:12:57 um and we note that it's in english this presentation and this isn't a translation this was how it was provided to the inquiry does this suggest that it was delivered
00:13:09 does this suggest that it was delivered to personnel able to speak english
00:13:14 from every presentation we went to a majority of the slides were in english uh because obviously there were two english people there that didn't speak french
00:13:25 french um and of course in the international language so yeah it was done in uh in english yes that's really helpful so i think what you're saying is at these technical
00:13:36 you're saying is at these technical um during these technical presentations they would be presented in english is that correct yeah majority of the slides would be yes yeah and was that the case for the whole of the sales meeting that you attended in france
00:13:47 in france that you would commonly converse in english as opposed to french generally yes it would be it would be english occasionally they'd go into french
00:13:58 french you know with the french representatives or those that weren't so strong in english uh that weren't so many of those but there were a few guys that would you know be spoken to in french
00:14:09 would you know be spoken to in french but in general it was english yes yeah so does it follow that the majority of those attending these sales meetings had a good command of english oh yes yes
00:14:20 command of english oh yes yes if we go to page 123 within this technical quiz
00:14:28 presentation here we can see reference to a question about
00:14:34 about uh different cassette systems what cassette systems should be recommended for an installation in a horizontal configuration and you can see that the answer is being given with a green cross
00:14:45 given with a green cross and if you go to the next slide one two four
00:14:49 four we can see a similar set set of questions about the so this appears to be a way of conveying information for example about the technical requirements to do with the cassette and
00:15:00 requirements to do with the cassette and the rivet systems yes yes from what i can see yes and if we go on to page 129
00:15:11 here we can see a section headed fire certification of this presentation and the question is the fire test according to the euro norms en13501
00:15:24 norms en13501 is a test based on and then the answer is given that it's the product plus the fixing system and not for example the product only do you see that i do yes so do you have a recollection
00:15:38 i do yes so do you have a recollection of receiving some tuition at this sales meeting about fire performance i'm really sorry i don't
00:15:47 don't i don't remember any of these slides whatsoever which is unfortunate i just can't remember any of that slight them slides okay i want to just keep going just for
00:16:00 okay i want to just keep going just for a few more pages if we now look at page 130 in this presentation
00:16:10 we can see here that there's a question number 12 what is the fire reaction classification for rayna bond fr in accordance with the en 13501 standard and you get given the answer
00:16:22 standard and you get given the answer which is that it's a b s one d naught do you see that i do see it yes
00:16:29 it yes and then if we go on to page one three one
00:16:34 the next page here the question is 13 what is the fire reaction classification for rayna bond p e cassette system in accordance with the
00:16:46 e cassette system in accordance with the en13501 standards do you see that i do see it yes and you're being told it's not a b it's not a c but it's an e do you see that in this slide i do yes
00:16:59 do you see that in this slide i do yes and then a page the next page 132 question 14 what is the fire reaction classification for rayna bond p
00:17:10 classification for rayna bond p e in the rivet system and there you're told that the answer is that it's
00:17:16 that it's a c there do you see that i do see it yes now you you told the inquiry in your evidence last week that you were not made aware by arconic whether in your training or
00:17:29 by arconic whether in your training or subsequently of the european classifications for p e cassette and p e rivet uh you said that at pages 141 and 142 of
00:17:40 uh you said that at pages 141 and 142 of your evidence last week on day 89 it would appear to be the case that at this presentation those present were informed
00:17:51 those present were informed of these european classifications in july 2015. do you accept that well in my defense i you know i've started with the company i was eight weeks into my employment
00:18:02 i was eight weeks into my employment this was
00:18:03 this was all very new to me i wouldn't have taken that
00:18:07 that on board and understood really what it meant because i was just a newbie to the company
00:18:12 company i'm you know if i'm absolutely honest this wouldn't have gone in uh in my my head and i would have taken it on board uh you know it was all the sort of bombardment of
00:18:24 of bombardment of uh of technical things that they were flashing up on the screen i guess that i i can't even remember the slides so um yeah it was just very new to me
00:18:35 so um yeah it was just very new to me only being eight weeks and still on my training
00:18:38 training uh i don't remember it at these sales meetings would you be provided with a hard copy pack of the presentations that you were receiving during the
00:18:49 receiving during the the time there on some some meetings uh later on uh down the years i remember having some sort of literature that we could perhaps take with us
00:19:00 could perhaps take with us but in general it was on slide uh you would see it i think you could probably have
00:19:05 have a copy of the presentation if you ask for it
00:19:09 for it but uh nothing really in a hard format it was it was done via obviously uh
00:19:16 uh the presentation overhead rejection sorry
00:19:20 sorry do you ever remember asking for a copy of the
00:19:23 of the technical presentations that you received
00:19:27 uh i i can't i think i had so much information given to me when i first started with folders of people's names what they do uh it was
00:19:38 people's names what they do uh it was just i had a big pack of an induction pack i guess at that stage i wouldn't have asked for any uh any over any sort of um
00:19:49 uh any over any sort of um copy of the presentation would you agree that these presentations demonstrate that the sales team were expected
00:19:57 expected to know technical material at least at some level of detail
00:20:03 looking at that presentation that you've just shown me um i assume they would have expected you to have some sort of knowledge um but as i said
00:20:14 i said in my i can only go back to my defenses i i was
00:20:17 i i was it was all very new to me i was eight weeks into the employment and uh you know i would have i would have
00:20:24 have hopefully have picked it up along the line but this was very very new to me yes can we look now at page 134 of the same presentation this is
00:20:35 134 of the same presentation this is still within the fire certification section
00:20:42 so this says 15 and the main question appears to be about the raino dual product does the rainer duel get the a1 classification in
00:20:53 rainer duel get the a1 classification in accordance with the en 13501 standard and then there's a table below which is giving
00:21:02 giving fire performance information about different
00:21:05 different iconic products we can see that the a2 the raynabon a2 has been ringed in the middle of the page and in that central column under fire class
00:21:16 central column under fire class it says non-contribution to fire and then in the far right hand column there's a column for typical application and it says that the a2 product can be used
00:21:26 used in all type of building facades and internal use and then we can see what's said below that about the fr product raynabon b1
00:21:37 that about the fr product raynabon b1 called
00:21:37 called fr in the middle of the page it says a very limited contribution to fire and the typical application is said to be maximal building height of 28 meters to
00:21:48 maximal building height of 28 meters to 35 meters depending on the country and then below that we have the pe product
00:21:55 product it's titled reynabond b2 called pe and in the middle column fire class we can see it says flammable and the euro classification is
00:22:06 flammable and the euro classification is said to be c to e and then in the typical application on the right hand column
00:22:13 column we can see it says maximal building height of
00:22:17 height of 8 meters to 12 meters depending the country
00:22:21 country do you see that i do yes now do you have any recollection of being
00:22:31 being given guidance at this time of what the applications were for different rainer bond products i don't recall seeing this slide again
00:22:43 i don't recall seeing this slide again so this to me is i'm digesting it as we're speaking um i i think at that early stage when i'd gone to this sales meet i would expect expected to have sort of learned
00:22:54 expect expected to have sort of learned things down the line but nothing was explained to me in depth apart from this slide that you're saying was it the sales meet um so no
00:23:05 was it the sales meet um so no i see you told us in your evidence last week that you were not told there was a difference in the type of applications that the different cores could be used for nor were you told by anybody iconic on the
00:23:17 were you told by anybody iconic on the technical team not to use pe at certain heights now do you agree that if you've seen this slide it does deal with common maximum height
00:23:28 it does deal with common maximum height restrictions associated with the use of different rainer bomb products including the pe chord raynabond i think looking looking at this slide
00:23:39 i think looking looking at this slide that you've just shown me i don't know if it appears and i've never seen that ever since throughout my employment with the company so this is the first time i've actually seen this talking to you um
00:23:52 it would have obviously helped i guess um
00:23:56 um but no i the first time i've seen the slide so
00:23:59 slide so it's it's new to me i see but it's likely that you saw this slide isn't it at the july sales meeting given you know
00:24:07 you know we know you attended that meeting and given this was clearly a technical presentation that was meant to be informative to rent to personnel selling rainer rainerbond products
00:24:19 rainerbond products it's likely that i would have seen this slide yes i i just can't remember and it frustrates me that i can't remember seeing the slide um or any of the slides that you've shown me
00:24:30 that you've shown me but i can only put that down to being a bit nervous about being at the first sales meeting and all the new people that were there and and all the new products that were being sort of thrown at me uh so
00:24:43 thrown at me uh so yes did that kind of information ever prompt you to inquire about what the position was in the uk about the use of pe and whether it was restricted at certain heights
00:24:57 that's the stage of my employment no it didn't uh i i use this word i don't like using it but i assumed that everything that we had was uh
00:25:08 that everything that we had was uh ready for us to go into the or it's been put into the uk market for many years uh for what i understand pe has been in the uk for over 30 years
00:25:19 the uk for over 30 years and in my opinion i i honestly believe that that product was a safe product to use in the uk or else i would never have been using it and that's as simple as that
00:25:32 i see but i think you told us last week that
00:25:36 that you would have known that it wasn't the correct product for certain applications that's right isn't it it would have been down the line yes at that stage of my employment for eight weeks into the employment
00:25:47 weeks into the employment i wouldn't have had that knowledge i wouldn't have asked questions uh i wouldn't have really digested what that was but later on as i've said uh obviously you're aware of what product to put
00:25:58 of what product to put in what application yes i see can i just look at two more of these slides can we go back to the slide pack and look at page 136 now of that same
00:26:09 and look at page 136 now of that same document
00:26:16 so this is question number 17 and the question is what is the meaning of the different letters in the classification b s one d naught
00:26:27 b s one d naught do you see that there i do see it yes and you're being told that the b relates to the spread of fire and energy released the s one to smoke that's capacity opacity and then
00:26:39 that's capacity opacity and then d naught is debris and flaming drops do you see that i do yes and then we've got a
00:26:47 got a picture some pictures which appear to include
00:26:50 include some of the european tests the single burning item test on the right in the in those images do you see those images i do see the images yes and then if we go to page 137 the next
00:27:04 and then if we go to page 137 the next slide
00:27:06 slide this is also part of question 17. the question is what is the meaning of the different letters in the classification b s 1 d naught and what we can see is
00:27:17 s 1 d naught and what we can see is there's some technical graphs below that then on the right hand side there's a title with a little arrow next to it in red
00:27:26 red the propagation speed of the fire in function of total energy liberated by the samples and we have a table which talks about time to reach the flashover
00:27:38 time to reach the flashover and then the euro class and what we see is this is giving you some indication of how long it takes to reach flashover as it's been
00:27:50 takes to reach flashover as it's been defined in a particular way here against different euro classes and we can see that for e at the bottom of this table the time to flashover appears to be less
00:28:02 time to flashover appears to be less than two minutes to get to e whereas for b or better the time
00:28:09 time to get to the flashover is greater than 20 minutes can you see that i can yes so can you remember coming away from this sales meeting
00:28:21 this sales meeting with an understanding at least in general terms that the euro class b and above were the better classes and down to e was the worst fire performance
00:28:34 we're talking about 2015 june uh no no i can't say i ever come away from that meeting with a better knowledge or any any knowledge of of of this i don't remember seeing the
00:28:46 of of this i don't remember seeing the slide
00:28:47 slide at that time because i say i was very new to the company as you're aware so i'm sorry now i can't remember any of this sticking in do you remember getting the clear message that the fire performance of the
00:28:59 message that the fire performance of the rainer bond pe cassette panels was by far the worst performance i can't say that i do no i didn't take as i said i didn't take
00:29:11 no i didn't take as i said i didn't take it on board uh because i was very very new to the company so i i can't uh wouldn't have taken it on board that the any of the products were not fit for
00:29:22 any of the products were not fit for purpose if if that's what we're saying i see let's move on now i want to ask you about the bba certificate the 2008 bba certificate for the rainer bond
00:29:34 bba certificate for the rainer bond panels
00:29:35 panels um before you joined arconic were you aware of what the bba the british board of agreement was did you know what it was i knew a british board of aggregate was a kite mark it was the standard
00:29:47 a kite mark it was the standard independent document that not everybody used but it was there for the construction industry uh if need be so that was
00:29:58 uh if need be so that was your understanding of what the purpose of a bba certificate was yes in my opi yes yes i thought it was there for
00:30:05 for um confidence in in you know buying materials perhaps how regularly did you provide the bba certificate to your customers
00:30:17 certificate to your customers i i wouldn't have personally provided the bba certificate to my customers it would have been uh are we talking about uh
00:30:25 about uh sorry arconic here or our iconic when i was working for them or are we talking about other companies no i'm talking about your time at our college yeah that no the bba certification if
00:30:38 yeah that no the bba certification if was ever needed would have been sent via the office over the intel
00:30:43 the intel internal staff or generally it would have been uh the technical staff would have forwarded on the bba if they needed a bba i see so did you ever
00:30:56 i see so did you ever use it as a marketing tool a document that could be used to support the sales that you were trying to achieve we were asked for the bba uh yes on several occasions uh and we didn't have the bba for
00:31:08 uh and we didn't have the bba for certain materials as you're aware for the a2 material that we're trying to launch there was no bba so therefore we couldn't sell it in the uk because we were asked
00:31:19 sell it in the uk because we were asked if it did have the bba uh the competitors had a bba certification for their a2 material uh and that was a you know a bonus for them uh but we
00:31:30 you know a bonus for them uh but we didn't have one i know we were working on it and i was asking over and over again you know when are we going to get some sort of bba but unfortunately it never come tuition we never actually got the bba for the a2 materials
00:31:42 materials okay to your knowledge did customers rely on this bba certificate when deciding whether to use the rainerbong panels for their project not all customers there were certain
00:31:54 not all customers there were certain customers that would say that you need a bpa for the uk market
00:31:58 market and they would insist on having the bba uh but that didn't that wasn't you know all the cases you know some of them were just it was because it was a independent piece of paper they weren't
00:32:09 piece of paper they weren't really interested in the bba but the majority of people did want a bva because our competitors had one as well yeah
00:32:17 yeah um can we look at your witness statement about the 2008 bba certificate now it's page 32 of your statement at paragraph
00:32:26 97
00:32:32 it's right at the bottom of that page you say this you say i'm not in a position to make a determination as to whether on whether or not or not the products applied for the dwemerville
00:32:43 the products applied for the dwemerville tower project fell within the scope of the bba
00:32:47 the bba by way of example only in the behavior in relation to fire section of the bba certificate there are references to fire performance tests having been conducted on grey green
00:32:58 green gold and metallic grey painted rainer bond
00:33:01 bond the bba certificate states that the fire test performances may not be achieved for different colours
00:33:08 colours none of the colors referenced in the bba certificate were supplied for the grenfell tower project
00:33:16 project in those circumstances the bba certificate notes that the customers should
00:33:20 should perform a test or assessment in accordance with the pre-document b so in your witness statement you're bringing uh to our attention a number of aspects particular aspects
00:33:32 a number of aspects particular aspects of the bba certificate including the color limitation and that it notes that the customer should perform a test or assessment in accordance with adb can we look then
00:33:44 in accordance with adb can we look then at that bba certificate this is um bba 6047.
00:33:54 here we have the certificate now you told us in your evidence last week that you only ever glanced over it that was at page 122 of day 89 last week
00:34:07 of day 89 last week i'm going to ask you again is it really your evidence that you never read this certificate during the time that you worked as our conic sales manager yeah if you could just if i could just explain the whole situation here uh
00:34:20 explain the whole situation here uh first of all as you're aware i had absolutely nothing to do with the grenfell tower project uh the document that you the statement that you've just read out was a
00:34:30 out was a statement that i would have added after the fire
00:34:33 the fire because i've done obviously a lot more research into what the bba was about and what it said on that bba after the tragedy uh but before that absolutely i would have glanced over the
00:34:44 absolutely i would have glanced over the bba and not really as i've mentioned before to you uh really understood the ins and outs of the bba but obviously since the tragedy the fire i've looked but as i've said i had
00:34:56 i've looked but as i've said i had nothing to do with the grenfell tower so it was very difficult for me to comment
00:35:02 comment yes i see and did you understand that the certificate makes claims about the fire performance of the rayna bond panels
00:35:11 sorry we're talking so can you repeat that
00:35:14 that focus on the period 2015 2016. did you understand that the bba certificate made claims about the fire performance of the rayna bond panels
00:35:27 performance of the rayna bond panels i i knew as i mentioned before that there was a class o mentioned in the bbo bba spread of flame uh but that's that's about as far as it went i'm afraid if we could look within it
00:35:41 i'm afraid if we could look within it uh at that first page again we could have it back up on the screen
00:35:49 in the middle of the page there's a heading in capitals key factors assessed do you see that i do see it yes yeah we have that now nice and clearly now and then three headings down underneath
00:36:01 and then three headings down underneath that in bold it says behavior in relation to fire and it says in relation to the building regulations for reaction to fire the panels may be regarded as having a
00:36:12 the panels may be regarded as having a class naught surface in england and wales and a low-risk material in scotland
00:36:19 now can you just tell us what did you understand that to mean the panels may be regarded as having a class naught surface
00:36:27 surface in england and wales
00:36:30 as i've mentioned before the class o surface
00:36:33 surface i i class o i took a spread of flame so it meant that the flame would spread across the material uh and and that's about that's about it
00:36:45 uh and and that's about that's about it if i'm honest i don't really know anymore about that did you understand that all rainer bond panels
00:36:53 panels could be taken to have a class naught surface
00:36:56 surface based on that statement in this certificate
00:37:01 i assumed that they would have been uh all of the products because i was never the the really frustrating thing for me is the fact that it was never actually brought up to me that the certificate
00:37:13 brought up to me that the certificate wasn't
00:37:13 wasn't good enough for the uk market uh by any of my
00:37:18 of my customers or or the technical team never sort of mentioned any of this so i i took it as yes we had the uh the bba certification and it was class so it was spread of
00:37:29 and it was class so it was spread of flame and it was good enough for the uk market
00:37:33 market yes and just to be absolutely clear i think you started answering this way in that answer but i want to have your evidence clearly did you understand that that covered all rainer bond panels this certificate
00:37:45 all rainer bond panels this certificate i understood it covered everything that we had the pe and the fr at the time because we didn't have the a2 as you're aware
00:37:55 i see and so the limitation on color that you explained to us in your witness statement that was not a limitation that you were aware of at the time you were using the certificate in 2015 2016 is
00:38:07 using the certificate in 2015 2016 is that right that's that's the truth yes i didn't realize that the colors made it a difference really um obviously until it was delved into you
00:38:18 obviously until it was delved into you know and i looked into a later date so your understanding at the time was not that only certain colors were covered in this certificate that's right isn't it that's correct yes
00:38:35 if we now look um at page three of the certificate um there's a heading there general on page three
00:38:49 do you see at the top of that page we've got the heading general and then the third paragraph down says this it is important for designers planners contractors and or
00:39:00 designers planners contractors and or installers to ensure that the installation of the cladding is in accordance with the certificate holders instructions and the information given in this certificate
00:39:11 in this certificate now can you help us as to what that meant
00:39:18 i can't i'm afraid no i don't understand really what it means were you ever aware of any certificate holders instructions that were relevant to the installation
00:39:31 that were relevant to the installation of these panels
00:39:36 i'm sorry can you repeat that question i don't quite understand the question yes so if we look back at the certificate the part we just read if we could bring it back up on the screen
00:39:48 in that third paragraph under general it says it's important for designers planners contractors and or installers to ensure that the installation of the cladding is in accordance with the
00:39:59 cladding is in accordance with the certificate holders instructions and my question is were there any certificate holders instructions that were relevant to the installation
00:40:10 that were relevant to the installation of this cladding uh no i don't remember seeing any no
00:40:18 and then under uh below that there's a heading technical specification and item one is a description and then yes thank you
00:40:30 and then yes thank you and then under 1.1 that first paragraph if we pick it up in the second line at the very end of the second line in the second sentence it says here the panels are available
00:40:41 it says here the panels are available either plain edged riveted system or flanged cassette system
00:40:47 system to suit architectural requirements do you see that there it's telling you that these panels are available in two different configurations either a
00:40:59 in two different configurations either a riveted system or a cassette system and then at the bottom of the page in figure one if we can have a look at that we can see a diagram of
00:41:10 we can see a diagram of a riveted system on the left and a cassette system on the right now when you were dealing with this certificate um
00:41:23 dealing with this certificate um and providing it to customers as necessary were you aware that it made reference to both the riveted and the cassette systems within it
00:41:34 and the cassette systems within it if i'm absolutely honest no i didn't i i i would have glanced over it and seen it but uh
00:41:41 but uh i wouldn't have made any major impact on me i mean
00:41:44 me i mean it would have either been a cassette or a flat fix there were the two main ones but did you assume that the information in the certificate was relevant to both the
00:41:55 relevant to both the riveted and the cassette version of the product
00:41:59 product we're looking at the information that you've shown me yes but otherwise i wouldn't have digested this no
00:42:07 this no now we know having looked at those um slides from the sales meeting in july 15 that there was a difference between the fire performance of rivet and cassette fixed panels
00:42:20 and cassette fixed panels can we agree that this certificate doesn't make any distinction as to the fire performance of rivets versus cassette fix
00:42:31 versus cassette fix if there's no information on there then i assume no yes
00:42:37 did you ever question why the difference in fire performance between the rivet and cassette wasn't made clear in this bba certificate
00:42:49 certificate no i didn't did it ever occur to you that that was a distinction that
00:42:55 that ought to have been made clear in this bba certificate
00:43:02 i know it wouldn't have occurred to me uh because as i mentioned before i mean the first time i'd seen these slides that were given
00:43:09 given at the sales meet it was all very new to me uh
00:43:12 me uh i i wouldn't have at that early stage assume or
00:43:15 assume or or thought that it made any difference
00:43:20 we saw that in those slides that you were made
00:43:23 were made made aware that the pe cassettes achieved a euro classification of e did you ever ask why the euro classification of e
00:43:34 classification of e wasn't anywhere in this certificate for the
00:43:37 the pe cassettes no because i as i've mentioned before i don't remember them slides i don't remember even having that presentation uh presented to me
00:43:48 presented to me generally hand on heart i was new to the company just don't remember that early back
00:43:54 back so i wouldn't have asked that question i'm sorry
00:43:57 i'm sorry let's look at section six of the certificate on page five of it if we can have the document back page five please
00:44:09 have the document back page five please behavior in relation to fire is at section 6
00:44:12 section 6 and at 6.1 we're told that a standard sample of the product with a gray green duragrass coating when tested for reaction to fire has achieved a classification of b
00:44:23 achieved a classification of b s2 d naught and then we're told that a fire retardant sample fr sample with a gold colored finish achieved a classification of b
00:44:35 achieved a classification of b s one d naught so the classification the euro classification on this certificate is being said to be basically a b with some difference in the smoke and droplets figures
00:44:48 smoke and droplets figures were you aware that the euro classification referred to in the bba certificate was a b basically a b
00:44:59 ah no i wasn't aware
00:45:03 did you understand at 6.1 that the reference to a standard sample of the product was referring to a the pe product
00:45:14 no it wasn't and so it's your evidence is it that you you didn't ever notice that that b classification was
00:45:26 notice that that b classification was different to the c and the e which uh are the classifications that were in that technical presentation from july 2015 i'm sorry
00:45:39 from july 2015 i'm sorry once again i didn't digest this in 2015 and i wouldn't have known no
00:45:48 did you ever come to understand that there were any inaccuracies about the bba certificate at any time prior to the grenfell tower fire
00:46:00 fire what i don't understand is that if there was
00:46:03 was such big inaccuracies uh in the bba certification why this was never raised or brought to my attention i understand i could have looked at this
00:46:14 i understand i could have looked at this in depth
00:46:15 in depth this uh bba certification but no was the answer to that because nothing was ever raised nothing was ever brought to my attention uh to say that this bba certification
00:46:26 this bba certification had what it had on it were you ever aware of any concerns at all about the bba certificate that were drawn to your attention by customers
00:46:40 i can't remember any customers coming forward to me and actually saying this is wrong this bba for whatever reason
00:46:47 reason um do you ever remember them coming forward and saying this is unclear we need greater clarity than that which is provided in the bba certificate do you ever recall that
00:46:59 certificate do you ever recall that happening
00:47:02 i can't recall a pacific uh instance no i don't remember anybody actually asking me for a different for a different bba or why it was in the bba certification
00:47:13 it was in the bba certification um if i would have been asked that question
00:47:16 question then it sounds like all i'm doing is putting my uh my questions to uh the technical team but that's what happened if i had a customer a fabricator
00:47:27 if i had a customer a fabricator uh a main contractor whoever it may have been or a specifier ask questions about the bba certification it would have automatically be diverted to uh the technical team in merck sign
00:47:40 uh the technical team in merck sign and that generally would have been i would have my contact would have been claude verley head of technical yes yes i see did your clients ever ask for the underlying
00:47:52 for the underlying uh test or classification reports that underpin this bba certificate did you ever get that kind of request
00:48:01 i can't recall having the request nothing sticks out in my mind nobody actually confronted me personally um that's not to say that they would have contacted
00:48:12 have contacted france themselves and asked the question yes i see going back to the certificate now
00:48:20 now and staying on that same page in that section six page five
00:48:27 we get some more information at 6.2 and 6.3
00:48:31 6.3 6.2 it states that a fire retardant sample of the product with a metallic gray finish when tested in accordance with bs476 part
00:48:43 in accordance with bs476 part 6 and then when tested in accordance with bs 476 part 7 achieved and then it talks about a class 1
00:48:52 a class 1 surface spread of flame can you see that at 6.2
00:48:56 at 6.2 yes i can yeah and can you see that it only refers there to a fire retardant sample
00:49:02 sample achieving those test results do you see that
00:49:05 that i can see that yes and then below that it says
00:49:08 it says at 6.3 as a consequence of sections 6.1 where we get the year of classifications and 6.2 where it's referring to some bs standard tests the products may be
00:49:21 standard tests the products may be regarded as having a class naught surface in relation to approved document b of the building regulations now did you understand from paragraph 6.2 that it was a fire retardant sample
00:49:34 that it was a fire retardant sample which had which achieved the stated results in the bs 476 series tests i understand that by looking at the the document now
00:49:45 document now as we speak uh but at that time i wouldn't have understood that i wouldn't have
00:49:49 have i would have i didn't read it i didn't digest it so i didn't sort of take it on board no
00:49:55 board no does it follow then that you never questioned why there's no reference to the pe or standard sample of the product
00:50:03 product undergoing similar tests to bs 476 part six and part seven that's correct i wouldn't have i wouldn't have questioned that because i assumed
00:50:16 questioned that because i assumed the word you i don't like using it as i said but i would have assumed that the uh the document would have been
00:50:23 you know up to scratch if you like yeah did you know prior to the grenfell fire that the s476 testing was relevant to national class
00:50:35 testing was relevant to national class nord
00:50:39 no no i can't honestly say i did
00:50:43 and then just finally on this certificate we can see the color limitation if we can go back to section six on page five
00:50:53 we can see it section 6.4 in the middle there it says these performances may not be achieved by other colors of the product
00:51:02 do you see that i do see that yes and that they those colors should be confirmed by and in england and wales it said it should be confirmed by test or assessment in accordance with the
00:51:13 or assessment in accordance with the crew document b now i think it follows from your earlier answers that you weren't aware of that color limitation prior to june 2017 is that right
00:51:24 prior to june 2017 is that right that's correct yes
00:51:27 so does it also follow that you would have never said to your customers that certain colors were not covered by this certificate
00:51:38 if i was unaware of that i can't recall ever talking to any customers about certain colors because i wouldn't have been aware of it so
00:51:48 yes thank you i want to move on now to ask you about your general awareness of um cladding fires in in the years
00:52:01 of um cladding fires in in the years before you commenced your role at arconic so this is before may 2015. did you ever become aware of any domestic or international cladding fires
00:52:14 i only found out after the grenfell fire that there were various different fires uh and one of them i think was in dubai or somewhere
00:52:25 with regards to the similar material uh but no prior to the grenfell fire i was unaware that there are any major fires in the in the in the in the countries if you
00:52:36 in the in the in the countries if you like so you hadn't heard of the fire at lachnal house in southwark in 2009 resulting in six fatalities no i haven't know and were you aware of
00:52:47 no i haven't know and were you aware of any fires in the uae prior to starting at arconic no i was unaware of any fires that stood out in my mind in the ue and what about
00:53:01 in the ue and what about after starting at arconic between may 2015 and the grenfell fire were there ever any discussions with anybody within our conic about either domestic or international
00:53:12 about either domestic or international cladding fires
00:53:16 i'm sorry i'm trying to think i can't recall ever ever having a conversation with anybody uh about certain fires that took place while i was uh uh in them in the years
00:53:29 while i was uh uh in them in the years at
00:53:30 at arconic no okay now in terms of marketing material that was available to you i want to ask you some questions about that now you mentioned in your witness statement
00:53:41 you mentioned in your witness statement a number of marketing brochures that were available to you and i want to look at one of those which was available when you began working at arconic if we can go
00:53:51 can go to um arc
00:53:55 to um arc four 5045 six and we may need the offline
00:53:58 offline high quality version of this brochure
00:54:13 so it's arc50456
00:54:20 yes thank you so this is a rayna bond reynolux brochure uh which we believe is entitled
00:54:32 brochure uh which we believe is entitled transform create fascinate does that um do you recall that i remember this brochure yes yeah and
00:54:45 yeah and it looks like it was a folded brochure from the way that it's presented here is that right uh if my memory yeah i do believe it was a folded
00:54:55 a folded document yes yeah
00:55:02 and
00:55:05 there is a date that we've seen on this brochure
00:55:09 brochure um which uh appears to date it at august 2014 08 2014.
00:55:22 i can't see that at the moment but we'll come back to that actually there's a date
00:55:26 date hang on that yeah there is a date in the bottom right hand corner 5th of august 2014.
00:55:32 2014. can you see that yes i do see it yes and did you use this brochure yourself to promote rayna bond sales no i didn't not this particular
00:55:43 sales no i didn't not this particular brochure
00:55:44 brochure um if i remember rightly uh i think this brochure
00:55:48 brochure was given to me uh as some sort of little handover from debra french or a similar brochure uh that was slightly out of date so we never used
00:55:59 slightly out of date so we never used them anymore um thank you yeah this would have been presented to customers i don't think i don't remember uh i remember seeing the brochure
00:56:11 if we could pan back out with this brochure
00:56:16 brochure uh and then we can go to page two of it
00:56:21 actually i think this might be page two already
00:56:24 already um what we can see in the left-hand page on the side can you see is that it's it says it's got a core of p e or f r that's in the labels on the
00:56:35 e or f r that's in the labels on the left hand side yeah i can barely see that can we blow it up slightly yeah if we blow up the bottom left hand side of
00:56:46 yes so what we can see is it says that the core
00:56:49 the core is either p e or f r
00:56:54 and then it talks about a pre-painted aluminium sheet below that
00:57:00 and then i just want to look at the first page of this brochure on the left hand side
00:57:13 on the left hand side is there an earlier page to this brochure i think there should be a page before this actually looking at it now
00:57:22 reference i have is arc five 50456
00:57:34 we've got that perhaps if we could just bring up that um without bringing up the offline version can we just bring up arc
00:57:52 50456.
00:57:58 yes so this actually is the first page of the brochure so here we can see on the right hand side the heading transform create fascinate and i think what we were
00:58:10 fascinate and i think what we were looking at in the better version was page two of it now at the bottom of this page we could blow up the bottom left of this page
00:58:21 we see some fire classification information and with europe it's not very clear on the page but you can take it from me but with europe what we get is the fr is said to be a b
00:58:36 is the fr is said to be a b so all we can see in this table is the fire performance for europe of the fr panel
00:58:44 fr panel there's no reference in this brochure to the class naught the national classification and there's no reference at all to the fire performance of rayna bond pe
00:58:55 bond pe um now can you help us as to why that information wasn't included in this brochure
00:59:03 i'm afraid i can't i don't know why that information wasn't put into the brochure uh since i've seen the front of the brochure
00:59:10 brochure uh it looks slightly different from the up-to-date i guess you've got an up-to-date brochure that we would have used
00:59:16 used later on uh but this this i can't no i can't answer that i don't know why the pe wasn't okay yeah we have a much clearer picture
00:59:27 okay yeah we have a much clearer picture of that table now thank you on the table on the on the page
00:59:32 page here and you can see there that the en13501 classification is given for fr as a b but there's nothing for the pe core for the standard core
00:59:46 core for the standard core if we look if we pan back in that first page and look to the far right hand column at the top
00:59:57 if we could pan out i want to go to the right hand part of this page yes can you see there on the far right hand side we've got a an image of a
01:00:08 hand side we've got a an image of a high-rise building can you see that on the front page yes i can yeah
01:00:13 can yeah yes and yet there's nothing in this brochure to suggest that the pe core
01:00:20 core might be unsuitable for use at certain heights
01:00:24 heights and again does it follow that you can't help us with that either yeah i'm not sure i'm not sure if these buildings uh that they've put in there the high-rise buildings were projects
01:00:35 the high-rise buildings were projects from
01:00:35 from the uk or they could have been i'm not sure if they used this brochure in germany uh and just translated it into german as well as uh in french
01:00:48 as well as uh in french um but i no i can't answer that i don't know why
01:00:52 know why i see i mean this material is in english and my understanding is this is this was an english version of the brochure
01:00:59 brochure of course yes yes i understand it's just the picture on there i'm not sure if they left the same picture in there i i don't know yet it would have been taken in a european country
01:01:10 in a european country uh but no i i can't answer that question i'm afraid i'm sorry i see so but can we agree that someone would have to study this document pretty hard
01:01:20 hard to notice that there was a pe version of the product we saw that in the little label on page two but the fire performance of that product is nowhere set out in this brochure can we agree that i
01:01:33 in this brochure can we agree that i think yes
01:01:33 think yes someone would have had to look at that to find out there wasn't the pe in there because i didn't i see um i now want to ask you about some
01:01:44 um i now want to ask you about some presentations that you gave in your role as uk sales manager to promote rayna bond
01:01:49 bond if we could look at paragraph 17 of your witness statement now on page five
01:02:11 so here you tell us i'm going to read it with you
01:02:15 with you it says i inherited a powerpoint slide deck which i understood from the marketing team at alconic had been prepared by my predecessors for presentations designed to be delivered to reba the royal institute of british
01:02:28 to reba the royal institute of british architects as part of its continuing professional development programme in order to deliver any presentation to reba under that program a provider including a manufacturer a manufacturer of product
01:02:39 of product would need to be accredited by the riba which would then also involve the payment of considerable fees to the riba i do not know if any version of the presentation was ever in fact delivered
01:02:52 presentation was ever in fact delivered to riba and then you say that there's a copy of the slide deck in your exhibits
01:03:00 exhibits and then you go on just below that you say my only contribution to the content of those slides was to make adjustments to the title page including my name and position as uk and ireland sales manager for reynabond architecture
01:03:13 sales manager for reynabond architecture and
01:03:13 and corporate identity my understanding was that this slide deck had been prepared by my immediate predecessor deborah french in 2014 when i reviewed that slide deck i considered that it would require some
01:03:25 considered that it would require some amendment
01:03:26 amendment if it were to be used in a then we go over the page
01:03:37 if it were to be used in a presentation to any architects whether at individual practices or as part of a cpd program for the riba as it happens i never got around to making those adjustments for any architect
01:03:49 adjustments for any architect audience but because the slide deck contained useful information regarding fabrication i did use the slides at some meetings with fabricated customers or target customers and then you go on and
01:04:01 target customers and then you go on and you say you never presented to the riba on this so it would appear is this right that you did use these slides at some meetings with fabricator customers
01:04:12 customers or target customers is that right that's correct the slides would have been used or the presentation would have been used to bring back the fabricators that
01:04:23 bring back the fabricators that unfortunately left uh weren't using us over the years uh they'd used this in previous years but
01:04:31 but my my aim was to bring on as many fabricators as possible and the slide deck was useful really just for them to uh get an idea of what uh
01:04:44 uh get an idea of what uh renabon was a was about really and hopefully bring them back on board with us
01:04:49 us so yeah that's all it was used for and who were the target customers that you presented these slides to can you recall uh target customers um i say there would be old fabricators that we sort of
01:05:02 be old fabricators that we sort of worked with previously and then they dispersed and didn't use this over the years
01:05:07 years and i guess you know some subcontractors or main contractors um yeah i just can't remember exactly which clients they would have
01:05:19 exactly which clients they would have been
01:05:20 been but they would the majority of them would have been fabricated i did a lot of my work with fabricators okay and you go on in that paragraph to tell us that you also delivered this to a number of architects practices but
01:05:32 to a number of architects practices but you can't remember who now is that right uh i don't recall ever so presenting the presentation to a uh architectural practice on the full
01:05:44 uh architectural practice on the full cpd
01:05:45 cpd uh program because it mentions you know ran a bond in there quite a lot um
01:05:52 um and as you're probably aware the um reba is is not about the pacific products it's about it would have been about an acm product in general yes mr i'm going to interrupt you you
01:06:04 yes mr i'm going to interrupt you you say in that paragraph that you didn't present this as part of a formal riba presentation but you do tell us in that paragraph that you did present to a number of architects practices but you can't
01:06:16 architects practices but you can't recall who now is that right yeah it would have been early on they would have they would have had an idea of what we did via that cpd yes yeah can we just look at those slides for this presentation that you're referring to
01:06:28 that you're referring to uh if we can go to met three zeroes 53183
01:06:33 53183 and i want page 61 of that
01:06:43 so is this the presentation that you were talking about in that paragraph with your name at the bottom there yes i didn't change any of the uh the presentation whatsoever it was just
01:06:54 presentation whatsoever it was just my name uh along the bottom really yeah it was the only piece of information we had
01:07:00 had all the only slides we had yeah so we can see it's titled rain screen facades a guide to design aluminium composite material introduction to rayna bond and then if we can just look through the
01:07:13 and then if we can just look through the slides
01:07:15 slides if we look at page 64
01:07:22 there's some learning aims of this cpd and it includes how item one aluminium composite material what it is and how it's manufactured
01:07:33 what it is and how it's manufactured and then two testing and sustainability and other
01:07:37 and other benefits do you see that there i do yes and then if we look at page 66 you're explaining in the next sorry you're explaining
01:07:48 in the next sorry you're explaining there
01:07:50 there what aluminium composite material is that's correct including there the thermoplastic core in the center yes yes
01:08:00 and then if we go to page 68
01:08:07 this slide sets out some primary applications and do you see there there's an image of a high-rise building on this slide i do yes and do you agree that you were using this presentation to market rainer
01:08:19 using this presentation to market rainer bond for
01:08:20 bond for use in high-rise applications i honestly say i wasn't using all the slides in this presentation i was doctoring it for the audience so if it would have been an architectural practice
01:08:32 architectural practice uh this pres these certain slides wouldn't have been used this was the whole presentation uh and i i don't recall ever using the whole presentation to a customer it would have just been a certain slide
01:08:46 it would have just been a certain slide for certain uh audiences people that it would have made sense for them to see i see are you saying that you deliberately doctored the presentation and didn't present this slide
01:08:57 present this slide to certain people it's not that i adopted it i took some of the slides out that weren't relevant to what they were looking for if they were looking for a certain product
01:09:07 product or they were looking for certain information instead of going an hours long presentation or a 15 a three-quarter of an hour presentation that really wasn't relevant to them i
01:09:18 that really wasn't relevant to them i would take out what was relevant and what wasn't relevant so i can't recall ever showing that particular slide to any architectural practice i see what about
01:09:30 architectural practice i see what about or was it what about to a fabricator would you have used these slides to market it for high-rise applications to fabricators again it would have been fabricators they the slides would have been
01:09:42 they the slides would have been you know how we manufacture the product at merck sign the build up they already know what a build-up of an acm was so i wouldn't have bothered showing them that slide but they would have got an idea of how
01:09:53 but they would have got an idea of how we go about produ making the material in merck sign um and how i think there were slides in there if you were to look at the whole presentation about the fabrication of the material
01:10:05 about the fabrication of the material and how it's fabricated um we would talk about that and various different things but very rarely i can't remember ever showing the whole presentation to anybody because a lot of it to be honest
01:10:17 anybody because a lot of it to be honest was
01:10:18 was is it relevant or it was out of date it just wasn't the right sort of information that people would want to know
01:10:23 know i think in my opinion can we look at page 71 of the presentation now
01:10:37 here we can see that the you've got a title acm availability and configurations and you've got the two different types of core p e and f are fire resistant what did you say to
01:10:51 are fire resistant what did you say to your potential clients about p e and f r when you got to this slide did you provide more information about those calls i can't recall ever um i would have presented that yes
01:11:03 um i would have presented that yes because it's a standard sort of slide uh to the right people i i would have mentioned pe we do a polyethylene core and we do an fr call and they're the fitnesses and the whips of the sheets
01:11:14 the whips of the sheets and that's as far as it would have gone uh questions and answers would have been asked at the end um or as we were going on you know it was a very informal sort of presentation
01:11:25 was a very informal sort of presentation how did you describe the differences between those two products when you got to this slide well i would use this pe core as a standard core we always called it a standard core
01:11:36 standard core because that's what i believed it was it was a standard core that we'd sort of produced
01:11:40 produced for many many years along with all of our competitors for 30 years and then they introduced the fr fire resistant core uh that we also did that we're very proud of that as i mentioned before
01:11:51 proud of that as i mentioned before under alan um
01:11:55 sales manager at the time we were promoting the fr core quite heavily so we would have mentioned that we do a standard core pe core and an fr call but that's as far as it
01:12:07 and an fr call but that's as far as it would have gone yes thank you can we go to page 73 of the presentation now this is
01:12:22 the presentation now this is a a slide that's entitled uh acm testing ensures confidence and we can see that the second bullet point down says bba certified and it gives the date
01:12:34 says bba certified and it gives the date of the 2008 um or it gives the number of the 2008 bba certificate there and then we can see two up from the bottom under material
01:12:45 up from the bottom under material integrity it says supported by full european certification and testing requirements do you see that there i do see it yes so
01:12:56 do you see that there i do see it yes so that would suggest that you were informing customers about european certification requirements yes as well as that there was a bba certificate
01:13:07 as that there was a bba certificate yes as i said i didn't put this presentation together so these slides uh would have been in that presentation that i would have inherited uh i don't know mr meakins i
01:13:19 inherited uh i don't know mr meakins i understand that but in your witness statement you've clearly said that you did deliver this presentation to a number of fabricators and a number of architects practices and i'm just seeking to understand when
01:13:31 and i'm just seeking to understand when you delivered it what you were referring to during those presentations yes yes sorry yeah i fully understand yeah we would i would mention you could see in there we had a bba certification
01:13:43 certification yes i was asking you about the european classifications if we bring that slide back up
01:13:55 we can see under material integrity it says supported by full european certification and testing requirements yes yes so would you have informed
01:14:07 yes so would you have informed those you were presenting to what that full
01:14:10 full european certification and testing requirements were when you got to this slide if they would have asked what that meant uh that particular section uh i would
01:14:21 uh that particular section uh i would have
01:14:21 have had to revert back to the technical team and ask them to send any documentation that they required to prove that that's what we did have yes i see
01:14:31 yes i see did you ever inform potential customers of the actual european classifications of the products in your presentation i that the rivet and cassette respectively got a c
01:14:42 respectively got a c and an e classification respectively me personally no i wouldn't have given those documents out that would have gone through uh the technical team i say they may well have asked
01:14:54 may well have asked merck signed directly and gone around me after the presentation but no i didn't not personally were you ever instructed not to provide that particular information that that
01:15:05 that particular information that that those euro-class information that euro class information were you ever told not to provide that unless specifically asked no i don't recall ever being told
01:15:16 recall ever being told not to provide any document uh i would have
01:15:20 have asked the question to why we wouldn't provide the document if it's asked for uh so no
01:15:30 i see and then if we look at page 85 finally on this presentation
01:15:44 we can see under the heading manufacturer of acm
01:15:49 we can see on the right hand side under acm bonded painted panels under you've got transformation bending and profiling and an application you've got
01:16:00 profiling and an application you've got hanging systems cassette riveted so you've got the different applications for
01:16:05 for the products there yes yes
01:16:11 and did you ever explain to customers that
01:16:14 that the cassette version of the product achieved a different flat fire classification under the euro system to the riveted one no i wouldn't have done because that
01:16:25 no i wouldn't have done because that question i don't recall ever being brought up so if it had been then i would have i said i would have looked further into it and asked the technical team to provide some
01:16:36 provide some uh information on that but that was never asked okay thank you mr chairman i think that would be a good moment for the morning break if that's appropriate for you yes and that suits
01:16:47 appropriate for you yes and that suits you does it yes it does good all right yes well we'll stop now for a short break mr meekin um please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence while we're on the break
01:16:59 we're on the break and we'll come back at 25 to 12 please okay thank you thank you we'll see you
01:17:14 then
01:35:16 welcome back everyone we'll now go to check that mr meekins can see and hear us well and then we'll continue with these evidence i can hear you clearly sir yes well done
01:35:28 i can hear you clearly sir yes well done thank you are you ready to carry on i am sir yes thank you very much yes ms grange when you're ready yes thank you yes mr meekins i'm now going to move on to ask you some questions about your specific
01:35:39 questions about your specific involvement in the grenfell tower project
01:35:43 project now we've already seen that there was a gap of around four or five months between your appointment and deborah french having left arconic in december 2014 were you made aware
01:35:55 in december 2014 were you made aware when you
01:35:56 when you started with arconic that it was peter frolick and gwenelle derend danger had been helping out on the uk
01:36:03 the uk side until your arrival uh i was i was aware that there were the internal team were sort of uh covering any calls that would have made
01:36:14 would have made directly into france into the office uh but
01:36:18 but i wasn't sure i wasn't aware that it was gwen and
01:36:21 gwen and peter i think and when you started in your role
01:36:25 your role the first order for reynabon 55pe at grenfell tower had already been placed in march 2015 and it was in the process of being
01:36:36 and it was in the process of being supplied to the tower is that correct i understand it to be yes now if we go to your witness statement um now page five paragraph 16.
01:36:53 um now page five paragraph 16. i want to pick this up around seven lines down in paragraph 16. um there's a sentence beginning it's kind of in the middle of that paragraph in practical terms you say that in
01:37:06 in practical terms you say that in practical terms therefore this initial period which included peter frolic coming over to the uk and introducing me to existing customers of arconic meant that i started my active role as
01:37:17 meant that i started my active role as uk sales manager in approximately early july 2015 yes yes that's correct so is it right that peter frailer could actually come to the uk to introduce you
01:37:29 actually come to the uk to introduce you to our conic's customers is that right yes that's correct yeah he was over for about three days before i remember rightly uh introducing me to fabricators uh yes and did that include him introducing you
01:37:41 and did that include him introducing you to cep
01:37:43 to cep i do but yes we did but we visited cep yes
01:37:46 yes yes so you met mr blade at cep yes i did yeah
01:37:50 yeah yeah what about any other uh uk fabricators did you were you introduced to any of them with mr frolic
01:37:59 memory i guess we would have visited uh the the um argent uh and uh genius facade systems
01:38:11 uh and uh genius facade systems yeah i can't remember exactly who they would have been but it definitely would have been genius facade systems and uh cep would have been one of them i believe
01:38:20 believe did you meet anybody from harley facades the the cladding subcontractor for the grenfell project no we wouldn't have had any contact with harley
01:38:30 harley harley facades were you made aware that arconic had previously been involved in a number of cladding projects with harley
01:38:40 no i can't recall ever being told this that harley were new to me now if we can look at your witness statement now page 7 just on from this at paragraph 21
01:38:59 just on from this at paragraph 21 you say this when i started work for iconic the first order for the supply of product to cep architectural facades limited cep in relation to the grenfell tower project
01:39:10 relation to the grenfell tower project had already been processed it would have been referred to even if only in passing as part of my induction though i do not remember exactly when or by whom
01:39:21 by whom however this was an old project as far as i was concerned and i did not take an active
01:39:26 active interest in it i focused instead on new opportunities
01:39:32 and then you say prior to the fire i did not have any details about the grenfell tower project including its height how it was to be re-clad or what other materials were to be used in the project
01:39:44 be used in the project beyond some administrative details where i was copied in by virtue of being the reynabon uk sales manager as explained below now
01:39:55 below now what do you mean there when you say that it was an old project as far as i was concerned you say that in the fourth line
01:40:02 line yeah uh when i started with the company i inherited the crm system and on that system there are lots of projects that i would
01:40:13 there are lots of projects that i would have had absolutely no sort of part in i wouldn't even know what the projects were there were lists and lists of projects that were
01:40:21 that were halfway through projects that were sort of uh
01:40:25 of uh complete uh but from my understanding was
01:40:28 was uh any projects when i started with the company
01:40:32 company would have checked that my name would have been put to them from debra french to vm so i would have just automatically up they would have updated the system with a vm next to the projects
01:40:42 projects now all of those projects because i was brand new to the company were just new to me i had absolutely no idea about what they were uh as far as i was concerned
01:40:53 concerned uh grand grenfell tower could have been a bungalow in somewhere i had no idea what it was whatsoever so um they're all new to me these
01:41:04 so um they're all new to me these projects
01:41:06 projects i see would it be more accurate to say that it was a project that was ongoing in terms of the supply of rainer bond panels rather than saying that it was an old project i was unaware that it was ongoing i
01:41:18 i was unaware that it was ongoing i didn't know that the project was ongoing uh what i'm trying to explain to you they actually look a bit confused the project was that started way before my time
01:41:29 my time uh i think whatever year it was 2014 13 something like that years before i started with the company and i guess what happened was the material was purchased in phases
01:41:40 material was purchased in phases now when i started with a company i would have literally been there a couple of weeks
01:41:44 of weeks and there would have been an order placed for another phase of the grenfell tower
01:41:49 tower but i had no idea uh i would have just been cc'd in on that email because i was now the guy in the uk uh but i hadn't have completed
01:42:00 in the uk uh but i hadn't have completed any of my training and i just wouldn't have known what that project was i would have just known it was just being it was there in the system and
01:42:11 being it was there in the system and that was it really i see now you talked about the crm the customer relationship management database and we discussed that uh in the first day of your evidence
01:42:22 first day of your evidence can we just go to that now it's at met three zeros four sevens eight so met three zeros four sevens eight
01:42:46 so this is an extract from that crm database and we can see at the top project detail it's entitled grenfell towers in the plural do you see that there yes i can see that
01:42:58 do you see that there yes i can see that yes and we can see under that under key project information project name grenfell towers name details harley mark harris um and then we can see
01:43:12 um and then we can see there's potential rain upon 3500 square meters on the right-hand side there and if we can then look at the bottom of this page
01:43:24 this page we can look at the bottom half of it so there's um an entry or heading there sales detail information just above the dotted lines
01:43:36 just above the dotted lines and then underneath that it says activity
01:43:39 activity arc reynabond architecture main activity arc reynaban architecture and on the right hand side it says their owner vince mekins do you see that there
01:43:50 owner vince mekins do you see that there that's correct that's what i said everything was changed into my name every project on that system had my name under it
01:43:57 under it yes when i started with the company yes because you were now the uk sales manager for the rainer bond product yes yes
01:44:07 yes yes and um just above that a few lines above that
01:44:11 that we get some project detail information we can look uh just a little bit above that on the page yes so two headings up project detail information
01:44:22 information we can see it says origin influencer and then it says type of building residential do you have that uh i can see uh type of building yes
01:44:34 uh i can see uh type of building yes and it says type of market public yes yes so is it right that you were aware of this information that it was the sale of rayna bond and it was being provided
01:44:46 of rayna bond and it was being provided to a public residential building no because i didn't look at this this crm system had no reason for me to look at that
01:44:57 had no reason for me to look at that particular project if you sorry can you go up to the last page that we looked at uh prior to this one the top of the page top of the page if you wouldn't mind
01:45:08 top of the page if you wouldn't mind thank you i mean every project where it says sales stage it says closed one yes that means that that project is closed it's finished it's won
01:45:19 is closed it's finished it's won so any any status that would come up like that on the crm system i wouldn't even bother opening
01:45:25 opening i wouldn't even look at it because as far as i was concerned that project had been won
01:45:30 been won it's closed and the project is now finished
01:45:33 finished so i wouldn't have had any dealings with it whatsoever i see did you ever speak to anybody within arconic about the grenfell tower project but to peter frolic for
01:45:44 tower project but to peter frolic for example
01:45:45 example i can't recall ever talking to peter frolick about the grenfell tower project uh because it wasn't my project i had absolutely no dealings with the grenfell project so
01:45:56 no dealings with the grenfell project so i can't recall ever talking to peter but were you aware that there was a project called grenfell tower or grenfell towers i would have been aware because of the
01:46:07 i would have been aware because of the email that i was cc doing on that i may have browsed over at the time um
01:46:13 um but as i said before i wouldn't have known what type of building that was or what type of project it was because i just wouldn't have looked at it
01:46:24 what core did you understand was being supplied
01:46:28 supplied for the project was it pe core or fr core as far as you understood it as far as understood i had no idea what core had been ordered uh i had no idea anything about
01:46:39 ordered uh i had no idea anything about the project so i wouldn't have had any idea of what was ordered on that project
01:46:46 and i i wouldn't have known it was a very early stage for me as i said before i'd been with the company at that time four weeks so that and all the other hundreds of projects that were on there i just
01:46:58 projects that were on there i just wouldn't have known what was ordered for that grenfell project i see you say you weren't positively aware of what core it was um did you make any assumption as to what core it was i would never
01:47:10 as to what core it was i would never have made any assumption to what core it was because i was unaware of the project i didn't know anything about the project i wouldn't have made any any guesses to what the project or what the core was now we know from
01:47:24 or what the core was now we know from the documents that there were four orders of reinaborn pe 55 uh processed by arconic between march 2015 and december 2015 the first order was before your
01:47:37 2015 the first order was before your time that was in march 2015 and then there were three other orders there was one on the 6th of july
01:47:43 july 2015 there was one on the 5th of october 2015
01:47:48 2015 and there was one on the 11th of november 2015. do you remember those orders uh being placed
01:47:55 placed i personally don't remember the orders because they would have gone direct through into the office um and i guess it would have been gwendolyn that would have picked the uh the orders up uh but no i don't remember
01:48:09 the orders up uh but no i don't remember them sticking out in my mind that they were because they weren't a project that i'd worked on i had had no involvement on the project so they would have just been orders that would have gone via the office
01:48:20 would have gone via the office they wouldn't have come to me directly if that makes sense i see can we just look for a moment at what miss darren danger says in her witness statement this is met531
01:48:33 in her witness statement this is met531 page 44
01:48:37 paragraph 139 so uh she says here on the 11th of november
01:48:49 uh she says here on the 11th of november 2015 i
01:48:49 2015 i was copied into an email from deborah talbot cep to vince meekins and she says this who by this point had settled into his role as rayna bond sales agent in the uk and
01:49:01 as rayna bond sales agent in the uk and also copied neil wilson cep um so
01:49:07 cep um so is that right that certainly by this time you had settled into your role as the rainer bond sales agent in the uk i guess so i mean i as you know i started in the may
01:49:18 started in the may so i would have been with the company a few months by that that time yes yes and as a result we can see in the documents that you were included in the relevant correspondence
01:49:29 included in the relevant correspondence about the supply of reinaborn to grenfell tower can we just look at some of that if we go to arc
01:49:40 50194
01:49:45 this is an email dated the 20th of july 2015. if we look at the top email
01:49:54 it's from mary claude jordan to neil wilson of cep and it copies in deborah talbot of cep miss darren dungeon of uh of arconic and
01:50:07 miss darren dungeon of uh of arconic and it also copies in you do you see that i do see it yes and it's said to be the subject is grenfell
01:50:15 grenfell tower london and the importance is high do you see that i can see that yes and um you would have seen emails like this
01:50:26 um you would have seen emails like this wouldn't you about the orders of reynabond to grenfell tower can i just make it quite clear that i was cc'd in on most emails i had quite a few emails as
01:50:38 most emails i had quite a few emails as you've probably seen come through in a week so i would have had an email flash up uh if i sort of taken a lot of notice over it it did say hi so i probably would have browsed over it
01:50:50 so i probably would have browsed over it but because of their project name i wouldn't have really taken an awful lot of notice of it did you understand from this description of the subject grenfell tower london
01:51:02 of the subject grenfell tower london that this was a tall building project i can't honestly say i would have taken that in consideration uh i would have just read it as a a london project
01:51:13 london project and that would have been all i wouldn't needed to delve into any more than that i see but but were you aware that this project was a
01:51:24 project was a tall building project from the description grenfell tower in london reading this email now i don't recall ever reading that email but reading it now yes i would say that it
01:51:36 reading it now yes i would say that it would be a high-rise building of some type the attachment to this email if we can go to this now it's at arc50195
01:51:48 it's at arc50195 this is the order acknowledgement for the order of reynabong pe in july 2015 so the second order
01:52:03 july 2015 so the second order so here's the order acknowledgement and we can see in the middle of the page that it's relates to reinaborn 55 smoked silver metallic and on the right after
01:52:16 metallic and on the right after raynabon55 each time we can see it says pe four times in this document do you see that i can see that clearly yes
01:52:27 now would you have looked at this order acknowledgment and been aware that it was pe that was being provided to grenfell tower now i can't ever remember seeing this document and i certainly wouldn't have
01:52:39 document and i certainly wouldn't have questioned it being pe because i was unaware of what type of building it was now looking at the the email that you've shown me uh it says you know a high building in
01:52:51 it says you know a high building in london
01:52:51 london but at that stage i would never have put the two together but wouldn't you wanted to have been aware of what the existing projects were so that you could develop your knowledge
01:53:02 so that you could develop your knowledge of your customer base and potential future sales with those clients
01:53:10 clients this was a project that i had absolutely nothing to do with as you're aware that my remit was to bring on new fabricators grow the uk market with the fr product
01:53:21 grow the uk market with the fr product and move
01:53:21 and move forward uh with renabond as best as we could we had lots of things in the pipeline like the a2 product and everything else that we were talking about on regular basis
01:53:32 talking about on regular basis so no old projects for me were there in the pipeline they had finished they've been closed as far as i was concerned so i wouldn't have looked any further into that project because it
01:53:43 any further into that project because it states on there it's closed it's it's finished so as far as i was concerned that project was finished
01:53:49 finished it didn't give any other information about who was dealing with the project uh apart from cep so no i i wouldn't have looked any any further into that at my stage in the employment
01:54:03 into that at my stage in the employment are you saying that you weren't aware that this was a a large order of rainer bond panels for this project
01:54:10 project no i i wasn't saying that i do realize it was a large uh looking at it now uh volume of material
01:54:17 material uh for the project yes yes let's have a look at another email
01:54:24 met3053161 page 87.
01:54:40 this is an email
01:54:44 from you to peter frolic on the 28th of august 2015. do you see that
01:54:51 that i do see that yes and again it's here the subject is grenfell towers order in the plural yes
01:54:59 you say peter hi peter i've just spoken to neela omnes he informs me that the above order was placed with us in two lots three three thousand meters squared july and three thousand six hundred meters
01:55:10 and three thousand six hundred meters square in august the material is in their yard and it's signed by you so it's right isn't it that at the time you wrote this you must have been aware that a significant quantity
01:55:21 significant quantity over 7 000 meters squared has been ordered for a project called grenfell towers
01:55:27 towers yes yes that would have been correct yes
01:55:34 now we know that um practical completion of grenfell tower occurred in july 2016 and um it's right isn't it that there was no warranty issued by arconic for grenfell
01:55:46 warranty issued by arconic for grenfell tower
01:55:48 tower i have no idea i have no idea what warranties were i had no no dealings with grenfell tower whatsoever so i wouldn't know about warranties would warranties ever fall under your
01:55:59 would warranties ever fall under your remit was whatever a matter for you to deal with and organize in relation to particular projects warranties would have predominantly come from the tech team
01:56:10 from the tech team uh depending on what the build-up of the project was where it was uh it had a lot to do with that
01:56:18 that so i generally would have come from uh merkstein in france but would you be aware
01:56:24 aware that a warranty was being sought in relation to a project where you had managed to secure the sale
01:56:34 where i secured the sale yes if if the project was finished and completed by the
01:56:40 the uh the fabricator he would have then asked for a warranty yes yes and they'd come to you in the first place
01:56:48 place it wouldn't have come from me directly it would have come from france in the technical team and is it right that the process for getting a warranty at this time would have been that someone on the project would have filled in an application questionnaire i believe
01:57:01 application questionnaire i believe that's later on yeah in my employment we introduced that yes
01:57:07 to your knowledge was the subject of a warranty for the panels at grenfell tower ever raised or discussed there was no communication between me and grenfell tower anything to do with any warranties whatsoever
01:57:19 any warranties whatsoever right now i want to ask you at this point about um some emails exchanged on a project relating to the queensway project do you recall that i vaguely
01:57:31 project do you recall that i vaguely vaguely remember queensway yes yeah i'm going to look at two particular exchanges one in july 2015 and then one later in the year in november december 2015.
01:57:42 november december 2015. if we can look first at exchanges that took place in july 15 and if we can go to met 30s zero 53180 one
01:58:05 now at the bottom of this page we can see
01:58:10 see an email from um deborah french on the 30th of july 2015 at 6 51 and we can see this is now debbie french has now got the taylor
01:58:22 now debbie french has now got the taylor maxwell email address that's who she's working for now and she says um morning gwen we have a project we are working on
01:58:33 project we are working on uh where we are supplying rainer bond and the architect is looking for details on
01:58:37 on fire rating so i should have said this is sent to miss daryn danger and then she says could you forward to both myself and chris taylor copies of current fire certifications
01:58:49 copies of current fire certifications for rb raynabon 55 4 millimeter pe core could you also put a description together so we can explain the class of fire rating and length of burn time if you could
01:59:02 and length of burn time if you could also include the same information for the fr
01:59:05 the fr core as well please do you have that i can see this yes yeah and then immediately above that at
01:59:16 yeah and then immediately above that at the top of this page
01:59:20 we can see that a follow-up email is sent by deborah french
01:59:27 french to you mr andersen and it copies in you this time as well as others at taylor maxwell can you see that i can see that yes and she says
01:59:39 i can see that yes and she says dear debbie please find the attached the document requested sorry i should have gone to the email below that do you see deborah french follows up on the 30th of july and said should have said
01:59:51 july and said should have said we have to achieve class naught rating both riveted and cassette panels do you have that
01:59:56 have that i can see that yes yeah yeah and then you're copied in
02:00:01 on the top of that page we can see an email from miss darren danche and it she's attaching a document which appears to be entitled class
02:00:12 which appears to be entitled class naught summary reynabong55 can you see that i can see that yes
02:00:18 that yes so in short we've got a query from deborah french now at taylor maxwell about the fire properties of rayna bond 55 of fire performance of the fifth
02:00:28 the fifth raider 155 pe and fr cores and she specifically says that they've got to achieve class naught for both rivets and cassettes and a document is provided and you are
02:00:39 and a document is provided and you are copied in to that that's correct now the document she attached is at page three of this same document run if we could go to page three
02:00:50 if we could go to page three this is what was provided it's called a class naught summary report it's by x over warrington fire and we can see it's dated the 5th of november 2012.
02:01:02 november 2012. and if we look at page 4 now which is the next page in this summary report and if we blow up the top half of that page we can see there's a table which sets
02:01:14 we can see there's a table which sets out some results to bs 476 part six and part seven and what we can see in the table is that this
02:01:23 this table relates to the rayna bond fr product can you see that i can see that yes
02:01:31 and beneath the table there's a heading we've got it on the screen opinion at the bottom x over are saying we consider the results of the tests 476 part six and
02:01:42 results of the tests 476 part six and part seven demonstrate that the product as tested complies with the requirements for class naught as defined in paragraph a13 b of approved document b fire safety
02:01:55 b of approved document b fire safety so you you're copied in on that do you recall
02:01:58 recall this exchange do you remember this happening i don't remember seeing this email now
02:02:03 email now or this document
02:02:07 so it appears that um arconic have been asked for reports showing that reynabond was class naught and what has been attached was a report for the fr panel
02:02:18 for the fr panel not the pe panel now did you understand at this time that only the fr chord version of the product satisfied class naught was that your understanding
02:02:30 understanding that would have been my understanding uh probably later on i mean what year was this do we know 2015 again
02:02:41 yes these emails are being sent in july 2015. yeah july 2015 i would have been with the company four weeks so i wouldn't have understood the difference
02:02:52 difference uh sorry can we go back was this the queensway project did you say yes that's our understanding is that a project that was started way before my time of employment again i
02:03:04 way before my time of employment again i think it was a project that i had no dealings with again i see but what we see is you're copied into these emails about test reports um can we go now to arc 50669
02:03:19 can we go now to arc 50669 this picks up the email chain we've just been looking at
02:03:33 now at the very bottom of page one we can just see the header to the email we can see on the 31st of july 2015 deborah french is sending an email
02:03:46 deborah french is sending an email to danny mcquaid and graham byrne there see seeing in chris taylor and you your cc'd and the heading subject is refire rating certificates
02:03:59 subject is refire rating certificates and documents rayna bond arc architecture and then if we look at page
02:04:05 page two the top of page two the email says this we need to make sure we
02:04:14 we only order fr core if project needs to achieve an o fire rating if we don't highlight this to genius they only order p
02:04:25 they only order p e only and it won't have the rating required
02:04:29 required do you see that yes i do yes so debra french is saying very clearly that they need to make sure that they order fr core if it needs to achieve class
02:04:40 fr core if it needs to achieve class naught
02:04:42 naught and then she says to you vince can you please confirm if f r is the same cost to us as p e you see that so although you only speed
02:04:54 speed sorry although you're only cc'd you're asked a question in this email by deborah french absolutely and can you recall her clearly stating that
02:05:05 can you recall her clearly stating that if the project needed class naught rating then it was an fr call that needed to be ordered looking at this email i know she's asked for an fr price
02:05:17 for an fr price so because debbie had already worked for the company prior to me obviously she was my predecessor uh i would assume she'd known that fr was more expensive than pe so
02:05:28 was more expensive than pe so my reply to that as you can see is yes it does cost more than fr and more than pe and it's based on projects but as for the uh fr core
02:05:39 but as for the uh fr core if she if her client needed an fr rated core then uh that's what she would have put forward right i see if we scroll up page one
02:05:53 right i see if we scroll up page one at the bottom of the page you reply on the 31st of july at 10 37 we can see in that in the second half of the page you say hi debbie fr is price on an
02:06:05 you say hi debbie fr is price on an individual job basis and additional cost would apply kind regards bins now you don't correct her in that email
02:06:16 now you don't correct her in that email and say no actually both the pe and the fr get class naught do you
02:06:23 well because i i reading the email um at that time i assumed she needed the fr project
02:06:30 project fr material um so i wouldn't have corrected her no well she says a bit more than that she doesn't just say i want fr she says if if it needs to be class
02:06:43 she says if if it needs to be class naught i need fr is what she's saying did that strike you as something significant when you read that
02:06:50 that no i didn't honestly read into the email so it didn't did you think to yourself well hang on i've got a bba certificate that says all of these panels have class naught that there's something going on
02:07:02 naught that there's something going on here did that occur to you no it didn't occur to me now
02:07:10 were you in fact aware at that time that only the fr core could be shown to be class naught
02:07:20 the type i can't recall when this email was sent can you remember what data had on that email yes 31st of july
02:07:27 july 2015. 2015 july 2015 again i wouldn't have been aware it would have been very early on in my employment so i know i wouldn't have looked into that
02:07:38 that i see now in that exchange we just looked at we saw a reference to genius which we
02:07:44 which we understand to refer to genius facades that's right isn't it that's correct yes and we heard a little bit from debbie french about who they were um it's right isn't it that
02:07:55 it that um john simmons and graham smith were involved in both genius facades and simcoe is that right i believe they were saying business yes part of the same business yeah
02:08:06 part of the same business yeah and graham byrne worked at genius facade yes
02:08:09 yes oh yes he did correct and genius facades was a customer of arconic wasn't it i do believe he was yes and also they were a customer of taylor maxwell yes they were yes
02:08:21 yes they were yes and they were involved in the queensway project that's right isn't it uh i'm i i believe they were i'm not 100 sure on that but i believe they were if you're telling me they were can we
02:08:32 if you're telling me they were can we now look at an exchange that happens a few months later in relation to this same project this is in november december 2015. we can go to arc50672
02:08:45 we can go to arc50672 and i want to start by looking at page four of this email chain
02:08:58 we can see an email from graham byrne here
02:09:02 here at genius facades to paul mears at taylor maxwell on the 24th of november 2015 and he says this paul i have had
02:09:15 and he says this paul i have had confirmation from alcoa that if a class naught spread of flame is required then we will have to supply the fr core rayna bond do you see that i do see that yes so
02:09:27 do you see that i do see that yes so he's saying he's had confirmation from arconic that if a class naught spread of flame is required then we will have to supply the fr core rayna bond i hope this helps graham and then if we
02:09:40 i hope this helps graham and then if we can go up to page two now
02:09:47 two now the email at the bottom of that page is from lee homewood of corova projects it's on the 24th of november 2015 and it's two paul miers and graham burn
02:09:59 and it's two paul miers and graham burn at
02:10:00 at genius facades and he says this paul graham note your response below please can you confirm what the p e chord does achieve
02:10:11 chord does achieve we attach copies of the raynerbomb bba agramont certificate and although list of certification taken from raynabond website both documents seem to suggest that the pe
02:10:23 documents seem to suggest that the pe core achieves class naught spread of fire
02:10:26 fire i am a little concerned given i've already forwarded the attach to the mc i think that probably means main contractor when they ask the question about performance in relation to fire
02:10:37 performance in relation to fire the extra over rate you quoted to go to the fr core i think the system is going to come under close scrutiny with regards to what testing has been carried out especially as the building is over 18
02:10:48 especially as the building is over 18 meters high and questions are already being asked about the suitability of the kingspan k15 insulation above this height have you carried out any testing on the system and have you previously installed
02:10:59 system and have you previously installed above 18 meters from my understanding of the building regulations in relation to fire which is very limited in buildings over 18 meters high the external wall surface must achieve class
02:11:10 external wall surface must achieve class naught national class or class b s3 d2 or better european class
02:11:15 class in the agromonth certificate clause 6.1 it states the standard sample achieves b s 2 d naught which is better than the min requirement and then you can see at the
02:11:28 requirement and then you can see at the bottom he says see below extract and if we go down a page now you can take it from me uh we've checked this carefully on the document
02:11:39 checked this carefully on the document so the image that was then embedded in that box
02:11:43 that box on page three was diagram 40 from approved document b and perhaps we can just bring diagram 40 up side by side
02:11:51 side with this email if we can look at clg
02:11:57 50224 page 97
02:12:08 clg 50224 page 97
02:12:19 so that's diagram 40 from approved document b which is what was imported into this
02:12:24 into this uh email and then the email continues we can if we keep those documents both up on the screen it says please can you review all of the
02:12:35 it says please can you review all of the above and come back to me with the conclusive test data to confirm can you speak to rayna bond and see if they can offer the fr core at same rate as the pe core
02:12:46 core at same rate as the pe core and then i'll give you a call now we'll see in a moment that this chain gets forwarded to you do you recall
02:12:53 recall seeing this email and seeing this extract from diagram 40 of approved document b no i'm sorry i can't recall seeing this document again it was 2015 i think but by looking at the dates um you know
02:13:07 but by looking at the dates um you know i keep saying this but i mean it was november i'd been in the company a few months
02:13:11 months i had lots of emails coming through i've bombarded with them actually uh i just can't remember seeing this particular document
02:13:18 document at all yes this is six months into your employment now as uk sales manager actively two months in the field i was training for a good three months three or four months
02:13:29 three months three or four months in-house
02:13:30 in-house and you know just visiting customers for the first four months of all due respect oh you know still new to the product so it was very new to me so you're now
02:13:42 so it was very new to me so you're now saying your training lasted three or four
02:13:43 four months did it no i mean to get absolutely you know okay with all of these documents and know the ins and outs of technical details with fire regulations takes a lot longer than a
02:13:55 regulations takes a lot longer than a few months i see let's look up the chain then what we can see at the bottom of page one and top of page two this email string was forwarded to you by graham byrne on
02:14:08 was forwarded to you by graham byrne on the 25th of november 2015 so
02:14:13 2015 so we can see their 25th remember to you copying in mister danger and project subject queen's way
02:14:24 and project subject queen's way and if we go to the top of page two we can see what graeme byrne asks you
02:14:30 he says this vince can you please have a look at the email below as there seems to be some confusion regarding the spread of frame and rayna bond also they're asking if there's any movement
02:14:41 movement on the rates for this project if fr core is required now do you recall this this is a client raising
02:14:49 raising questions about why the bba certificate says that all the panels are class naught when they're now being told that only the fr panel is class naught do you remember this
02:15:01 naught do you remember this i can't honestly say i remember this but i know what i would have done with it it would have been forwarded straight on to the technical team for them to give me some advice i asked you this morning if you were
02:15:12 i asked you this morning if you were ever aware of any concerns being raised about the bba certificate this was such a concern wasn't it i'm sorry i understand what you're saying uh but
02:15:25 i understand what you're saying uh but it wouldn't have stood out in my mind at that time i would have just forwarded it straight to the technical team and to me it wasn't a real concern it's something that could have been dealt with
02:15:35 with and sorted once the technical team would have looked at it yes let's look on page one now of the email chain um what we can see is that
02:15:47 um what we can see is that this email having been sent to you in november
02:15:51 november on the 1st of december at the bottom of that page you're being chased for a response vince i'm being chased for this information i need something back from you this morning so i can go back to the client
02:16:03 back to the client and then if we go above that we see your response
02:16:07 response also on the first of december and you say this
02:16:11 say this hi graeme as per our telephone conversation earlier i have forwarded your mail to technical so they can confirm in an email all that we have spoken about understanding that it would look better
02:16:22 understanding that it would look better coming from them hopefully this should help as for the fr prices i will discuss with peter but i'm pretty sure we will not offer fr core for pe at the same price now just looking
02:16:36 at the same price now just looking at what you say in that first paragraph it would appear that you have given some information over the telephone which then you are inviting technical to confirm
02:16:49 inviting technical to confirm what that information was is that right no it's not right i would have discussed with graham uh the price of the fr being more expensive but as for the technical side that would
02:17:00 but as for the technical side that would have directly went straight to straight to france and i vaguely remember waiting for a reply and i still don't think we've got a reply uh you know on the time we needed it and it took
02:17:11 it and it took very a long turnaround so where are you saying that email i forwarded your email to technical so they can confirm in an email
02:17:19 email all that we have spoken about are you saying that you haven't imparted any technical information over the telephone to mr burn prior to that email i think what i've done is i've worded that
02:17:30 what i've done is i've worded that incorrectly what i meant was the conversation that we'd had uh prior to the the the email would have been about the price of uh the materials i mean if you would
02:17:42 of uh the materials i mean if you would speak to graham byrne i'm sure he'd tell you the same thing well you then say understanding that it would look better coming from them so what you're saying is it's going to look better if technical
02:17:53 technical will confirm this in writing but the strong implication from this email is that you have imparted some technical information to mr burn over the telephone yes no that's incorrect i the the
02:18:05 no that's incorrect i the the understanding that i look better coming from them what i meant was by that is i just haven't got the technical ability to answer that question so it would look much more professional if it was coming
02:18:16 much more professional if it was coming from the technical team uh and explained to them exactly what they needed so you can't recall what you told mr burn about whether all the panels had class
02:18:25 class naught or only the fr panel i can't recall
02:18:30 recall even having the conversation uh with with mr burn if we now go um
02:18:41 if we now go um following this chain forward um to page 30 uh of met 3053180
02:19:07 yes so this is carrying on with this story
02:19:10 story the second email down in the chain is from
02:19:21 is from claude verla back to you on the 3rd of december
02:19:26 december and he says dear vince the bba certificate for rayna bond is still valid concerning the point spread of flame please note that our raina bond fr is
02:19:37 please note that our raina bond fr is classified b s one d naught when tested in accordance with the european standard en 13501 please find as a tax document our valid
02:19:49 please find as a tax document our valid certificate do you see that i do see that yes so mr burler is telling you that the rate the bba certificate for rayna bond is still valid and then he's telling you that the fr
02:20:01 and then he's telling you that the fr panel is classified as b in accordance with the european standard yes
02:20:06 yes yeah from that email yes definitely so mr vela must have thought that you would understand what he meant when he was referring to that european classification yes i assume so uh or he was just telling me
02:20:19 i assume so uh or he was just telling me so i could then forward that information on to the client
02:20:24 did you think that this satisfactorily answered the query that had been raised that query was does the pe panel have class naught
02:20:36 well if i recall this vaguely this would have been we needed an answer quite quickly on this project and i think i was being pestered by
02:20:49 and i think i was being pestered by uh graham byrne for an answer so anything that had been sent from the technical team would have just been forwarded straight to graham uh and i wouldn't have looked into the what was necessarily put in the email
02:21:02 was necessarily put in the email is that i thought that would have answered their question if it hadn't answered their question i'm sure they would come back to me and then i've had to uh dig a little deeper so is it your evidence that you didn't notice
02:21:15 evidence that you didn't notice that mr burler hadn't clearly answered the question does the pe get class naught
02:21:24 i'm afraid so yes i didn't look at that email
02:21:27 email it would have just been forwarded as you probably know onto the client if we can look now at page 38 of that same document run uh met 3053180
02:21:45 what we can see here is an email from a lady called anira bennett who's believe it we believe it taylor maxwell to deborah french
02:21:57 and copying in someone else at taylor maxwell on the 3rd of december 2015 you're not copied on into this and she says hi debs as discussed
02:22:08 and she says hi debs as discussed reference the above i understand that corrover projects are expecting an order from osborne's next week
02:22:14 week 1 700 metre square genius discrete acm the building is over 18 meters in high and therefore requires a class naught rated product in respect of fire spread
02:22:28 and then she says we've quoted kurova for pe
02:22:31 for pe core raynabon panels and also included an uplift on the quote for the fr core panels
02:22:38 panels however krover have used the pe core price
02:22:41 price and then she says based on the information in the bba certificate which states and then she sets out information in the bba certificate and then in the final paragraph she says the client are
02:22:53 final paragraph she says the client are also
02:22:54 also sorry the client are very unlikely to accept an
02:22:57 accept an uplift in cost at this stage and as such we are at risk of losing the order to a luca bond who supply only class naught rated panels to the uk my understanding is that kurova want to
02:23:08 my understanding is that kurova want to support us however we need to find a way to supply the rayleigh bond fr core material at the same cost as we've currently quoted for the pe corps appreciate your help with this
02:23:21 corps appreciate your help with this and then if we go up to page 37 one page up in this string there's an email at the bottom of that page at 9 17
02:23:32 page at 9 17 on the 4th of december 2015 from graham byrne
02:23:36 byrne of genius facades to you again subject queen's walk reading rainbow and fire rating and he says this vince i need you to have a look at the attached email below
02:23:48 have a look at the attached email below from taylor maxwell and come back to me as soon as you can this fr uplift is becoming a real issue so would you have read the email below
02:24:00 so would you have read the email below which was again asking questions about whether or not the pe core had class naught if i'm honest i would have read the email from graham uh
02:24:12 email from graham uh saying this fr uplift is becoming a real issue because we've been talking about the price
02:24:17 the price of the fr over the pe and how he needed a reduction in price so i wouldn't have read the email that had come through it would have just been the fact that he needed uh a better price for fr
02:24:30 uh a better price for fr i think that is out of my hands that that would have been a uh peter at the time that would have been able to give him a better price for the uh the fr material i see so is
02:24:41 for the uh the fr material i see so is it your evidence that even though he says i need you to have a look at the attached
02:24:45 attached email below from taylor maxwell that you just wouldn't have looked to that email but would have just addressed an issue about the fr pricing uplift it depends on where i was and what i was doing at the time this email would have
02:24:57 doing at the time this email would have come through i may have looked at it scanned over the email uh but because they
02:25:02 they it was their client it's not my client i would assume it was just about the the fr uplifting price uh so i wouldn't have taken that on
02:25:13 so i wouldn't have taken that on in debt sorry but surely you would have wanted to understand the reason why you were being asked to provide fr at pe prices no we get that asked that a lot we get
02:25:25 no we get that asked that a lot we get asked i remember this is 2015 again isn't it i know it's i keep relying back to that but it was again it was very very new to me even though i'd been with the company a few months
02:25:36 the company a few months you know i had a lot to digest had a lot to take in it was a big big job for me being the only uk manager uh sales manager in the uk
02:25:47 uh sales manager in the uk uh so i would have looked to that email i would scan my eye over it but i wouldn't have taken it in absolute the reasons to why they needed uh the fr over the pe the thing that
02:25:58 uh the fr over the pe the thing that stood out to me is the fact that they needed the pe material at the same cost as fr well that that just didn't happen we couldn't do that surely as a big job i mean this is being
02:26:10 surely as a big job i mean this is being flagged as a big project which is important you would have paid this considerable attention wouldn't you i think i didn't have a dealing in queensway so again it would have been it's not my project i don't know what
02:26:22 it's not my project i don't know what the project was i wasn't involved in the project
02:26:25 project so this would have been a project that i would have inherited so i would assume that genius facades would have known all about the project and what they needed and what they didn't need for the project now that be
02:26:36 didn't need for the project now that be that right or wrong uh you know i at that time i had a lot of information to take on board that year
02:26:44 year uh being it was a brand new job uh i was hoping he knew what he needed and he had everything he needed for the job i didn't ever get involved in this project as far as
02:26:55 as the emails that were sent to and through asking me for better prices uh on the on the job okay can we go now to arc 50683
02:27:07 okay can we go now to arc 50683 this continues the email chain
02:27:12 and if we look at page four arc 50683
02:27:24 we can see this is an email dated the 8th of december 2015 from graham byrne at genius facades addressed to you and miss derren danger cc'ing peter
02:27:37 and miss derren danger cc'ing peter frolick
02:27:37 frolick again subject queen's walk reina bond fire spread and he says vince uh please see below an email that i've received from taylor maxwell
02:27:47 maxwell again this is due to the confusion within your bba certification so just pausing there you would have been aware in december 2015 yes upon reading this email
02:27:59 2015 yes upon reading this email that there was confusion about the bba certificate if i read the email yes 2015 again so fairly new to the company but i would reading that email you would have
02:28:10 reading that email you would have thought there would have been some sort of confusion with regards to the bba certification yes i mean why wouldn't you have read this email it's addressed to you exactly um
02:28:21 exactly um so he says please see below etc and then he says can we can we please get this sorted as soon as possible as it's been going on for a while would you be able to obtain a formal response from rayna bond's technical
02:28:32 response from rayna bond's technical department re this re the spread of flame you'll be aware of the discrepancy between rayna bond's bba and literature regarding fire spread of their pe and fr
02:28:43 their pe and fr call panels from recent conversations with paul
02:28:46 with paul and debs now is that right that you are aware of the discrepancy between reynabon's bba and literature regarding far spread of their pe
02:28:55 their pe and fr core panels from recent conversations with paul and debbie french yes no i don't recall having a conversation with debbie french and paul
02:29:06 with debbie french and paul i very rarely had a conversation at all with a uh
02:29:09 with a uh client of debris debbie's i mean debbie used to work for the company so she could answer most of the questions that needed to be answered uh with her clients she knew rena bond she knew
02:29:19 she knew uh iconic inside out so there was no real cause for me to talk to her about an ee a p or an fr core and not a lot of change since she'd left and i'd started
02:29:31 change since she'd left and i'd started so
02:29:31 so there was no reason for me to sort of get too involved she knew and she'd been working for that period that the area was vacant with clients uh for renaband so are you saying that
02:29:45 uh for renaband so are you saying that this email didn't raise any alarm bells for
02:29:47 for for you that there was said to be confusion about your bba certificate and that there was a discrepancy between bba's literature and other conversations that have been
02:29:58 and other conversations that have been had
02:29:59 had with arconic i'm saying i would have read the email i would afford the email on to the technical department as requested uh and hopefully they would have got back to
02:30:10 have got back to graham with the the correct answers that he needed
02:30:14 he needed um but that's as far as i would have taken it
02:30:18 taken it in the final paragraph uh graham byrne asks
02:30:21 asks he says the architect client are now asking for a letter from alcoa explaining why the fr core is required to achieve class naught rating when their literature indicates a pe
02:30:32 literature indicates a pe core will achieve class naught regards graham
02:30:35 graham it's a simple question isn't it why is uh arconic saying that you have to use fr to get class naught when your bba literature suggests
02:30:47 naught when your bba literature suggests that the pe will achieve class naught it's a very straightforward question isn't it yeah and i would expect it to have a straightforward answer to the question from the technical team
02:30:59 the question from the technical team see but it was a question you fully understood at the time yes i can't say i fully understood but i i took it on board i read it and i sort of any any issues
02:31:10 i read it and i sort of any any issues or anything that i was unaware of or not completely satisfied with giving a correct answer i would forward the email directly to
02:31:21 email directly to the technical team for their advice and how to approach it
02:31:27 if we go down to the bottom of page three in this string the same in the same document
02:31:35 what we can see is that you forward this email
02:31:38 email to claude verla peter frolick and miss derendanger
02:31:44 do you see that there on the 8th of december 2015 at 9 43 and you say good morning claude please can you take a look at the email below and respond accordingly as requested
02:31:56 and respond accordingly as requested and then we can see claude verla's response
02:32:00 response in the next email up on page three it's back
02:32:04 back this email is coming back to you and he says this he says dear all indeed in accordance with the british standards bs-476
02:32:15 standards bs-476 both reynabond pe and raynabon fr are well classified when tested for spread of flame and then he says nevertheless in europe all the products
02:32:27 nevertheless in europe all the products should be tested in accordance with the european standard en 13501 since 2000 and when tested like this there is a big difference between those two products
02:32:39 difference between those two products p e and f r you see that there i do yeah taking that in stages what did you understand him to mean in that first sentence when he says that
02:32:50 in that first sentence when he says that both p e and f are well classified when tested for spread of flame what did you understand that to mean
02:33:02 i would look looking at that this now because i can't remember the the this email exactly or this text or whatever it is uh it's going back quite a few years i
02:33:13 uh it's going back quite a few years i would assume that reading that that we were covered uh in accordance to british standards both for pe
02:33:21 for pe and fr but he hasn't answered the very first
02:33:25 first sorry mr meakins he hasn't answered the very simple question has he he hasn't answered the question whether the pe is class naught he hasn't answered that in this email has he it doesn't appear he has no did you
02:33:37 it doesn't appear he has no did you notice that at the time no i'm sorry i didn't know did you notice that he then tells you that when tested in accordance with the european standard
02:33:49 european standard there is a big difference between those two products did you notice that i didn't i can't honestly say i didn't know
02:33:58 know well this is a very short email wasn't that pretty important information for you to be aware of but when tested in accordance with european standards there's a big difference between those two products and we're
02:34:10 between those two products and we're talking clearly about fire spread here from the title of the email if i'm absolutely honest uh it's the time again uh the period that i you know i was working is early on in my employment
02:34:21 working is early on in my employment however uh gone to peter uh and i would expect if there was a problem with that email for it to be flagged up by peter
02:34:32 for it to be flagged up by peter or someone with a little bit more knowledge about the uh the fire standards uh i i didn't really take that
02:34:39 take that i didn't digest it
02:34:43 i see you say you didn't digest it but did you come away with a clear understanding from reading that that there was a big difference between how those two products performed in fire based on european testing
02:34:56 in fire based on european testing no because i i didn't actually take on board that last part of the the paragraph i wouldn't have actually digested it i would have taken it on board
02:35:03 board in my mind i'm not sure what i was doing when the email had come uh so now if i'm honest i didn't take it massively on board it would have just been it's been dealt with
02:35:14 just been it's been dealt with uh and it's been sorted we can see that you forward mr vela's response on to mr burn at genius facades we can see that at the
02:35:25 genius facades we can see that at the very bottom of page two and onto page three of this chain we look first at page two right at the very bottom there on the ninth of december 2015 it's from
02:35:36 on the ninth of december 2015 it's from you and then if we go over the top of the next page we can see it's to gray and burn at genius facades and you say hi graeme please see response from claude below hope this helps catch up later and then
02:35:48 hope this helps catch up later and then if we go up to page two we can see mr burns response which is sent to you
02:35:57 this is uh on the 9th of december 2015 it's back to you from mr byrne copying in mr verla claude berla
02:36:08 copying in mr verla claude berla and he says this he says vince i cannot send the information provided to the architect client i need more detail this is a little confusing again as it is saying that both p
02:36:19 is saying that both p e and f r have spread of flame is it that the pe core has a spread of flame but not a class naught spread of flame if the pe core has a spread of flame what is it classed at
02:36:31 what is it classed at again the architect clients are asking for a letter from alcoa explaining why the
02:36:36 the fr core is required to achieve class naught rating when their literature indicates a pu call will achieve class naught
02:36:43 naught have they read the information incorrectly and both are classified as having spread of flame but only the fr is classified as class naught
02:36:52 naught claude states the following indeed in accordance with the british standards bs 476 both rayner bomb pe and raynaban fr are well classified when tested for spread of flame
02:37:03 tested for spread of flame again this needs to be expanded on what is pe classified as and what is fr classified as graham do you see that i do see it yes so mr burn was not
02:37:16 i do see it yes so mr burn was not content with the information that had been provided was he uh it doesn't seem that way no did you speak to mr verla at this uh time about this
02:37:27 at this uh time about this and the pressing that you were getting from genius facades on this question uh i would have done for sure i mean anything like this would have been forwarded on uh and asked for him to give more of a
02:37:39 uh and asked for him to give more of a detailed
02:37:40 detailed uh reason or or answer to the question you know so it would have been forwarded straight to the technical team did you press
02:37:51 the technical team did you press mr verla to give a more detailed answer i would have asked mr burler if it said there for a letter that they're asking for some sort of letter of explanation uh
02:38:03 of explanation uh as you can see can we can we possibly do something because you know we need this client needs this information and i can't give them the information please can you do it mr meekins i'm miss strange i'm sorry to
02:38:15 mr meekins i'm miss strange i'm sorry to interrupt you but i'm very conscious that in answer to a lot of questions mr meekins is telling us what he would have done
02:38:24 have done and what i'd like to know a bit more clearly is whether mr meakins can remember
02:38:29 remember his reaction to any of these emails and if he can what he did and if he can't whether he's simply speculating about what he thinks he would have done
02:38:40 about what he thinks he would have done can you help mr meekins yes i understand sir i think uh to be perfectly honest i can't quite remember
02:38:47 remember a lot of these emails and i'm speculating which it's not the right not the right thing to do i'm assuming which is not a good thing to do uh that i would have sent the emails on to
02:38:58 that i would have sent the emails on to the technical team in you know to deal with them in a technical level uh because i was very confused and and couldn't answer their questions
02:39:10 couldn't answer their questions yeah well that's helpful thank you i mean you're perfectly entitled to tell us
02:39:14 us what you normally did in the course of dealing with things which is just another way of saying what i would have done but it's quite important
02:39:23 important in some cases for us to know to what extent you can actually remember something
02:39:28 something so when you tell us for example that you did not read or did not digest an email i think it would be helpful if we could understand whether you can remember that you didn't bother to read
02:39:40 remember that you didn't bother to read it
02:39:41 it or that you can't remember whether you read it or not i understand sir and in this case this severance i i can't remember if i'd read it or not would be the answer right
02:39:52 would be the answer right okay well sorry to interrupt you ms grange no that's very helpful thank you thank you yes do you remember having to press claude verla to provide more information
02:40:04 more information on this general topic i i remember sending an email to claude uh of some type asking for an answer
02:40:15 uh of some type asking for an answer yes do you remember speaking to him on the telephone and pressing him to provide further information no i can't remember a conversation on the telephone
02:40:26 a conversation on the telephone if we look at page one now of this chain we can see mr vela's response to mr burn and to you having been asked for more information
02:40:39 so in that second email from the top 9th of december he says to you and mr burn dear all and then he says both of the results shown in the chart below give us
02:40:51 results shown in the chart below give us a class naught summary report and he's set out in a table results that he says reinaborn p e and raynabon fr get
02:41:02 e and raynabon fr get 0.9 naught class 1 class 1 and then he says this
02:41:06 says this the analysis i did is that our two products are class naught when tested in accordance with bs 476 part 6 and 7. this is not an exception as in france
02:41:17 this is not an exception as in france for example both products are classified m1 in accordance with
02:41:24 nf92504 and then he says this the bs and nf test are not sensitive enough to make a significant difference between our two products
02:41:37 between our two products i stay at your disposal for any further question
02:41:41 question so we can see here that mr verler is stating in this email that according to his analysis the two products p e and f are get class naught um do you recall ever
02:41:54 class naught um do you recall ever asking for any underlying information that supported that analysis any test certificates any certifications which showed that it was classified as class
02:42:05 showed that it was classified as class naught i'm sorry i don't don't remember i don't recall reading that that email
02:42:14 and then we see mr burns response to mr vela at the top of this chain on page one again on the 9th of december 2015
02:42:25 he says uh claude thank you for the information i'll pass this to the architect client i am sure they will come back and ask why they have been advised by alcoa to use
02:42:35 use fr instead of p e to get the class naught spread of flame if the both perform the same if they do come back to me i'll contact you again do you see that there
02:42:46 you again do you see that there i do yes and do you remember discussing this with anyone at this stage i'm afraid i don't know sorry
02:42:57 do you remember being aware even in general terms that the information mr avala was providing was suggesting that the difference between the two
02:43:08 that the difference between the two products
02:43:09 products was evident when tested to the european classification system no i'm sorry i don't
02:43:19 if we can go now to arc 50685
02:43:25 this is an email from mr burn on the 9th of december 2015 at 16
02:43:34 36. mr burn comes back to mr verla and cc's you
02:43:42 you and he's attaching the bba certificate to his email and he says claude i'm sorry and thought that i would have something back from the architect client please see below question which has come
02:43:54 please see below question which has come back from the architect i have looked at the information that you provided and as far as i can see they are correct but can you please confirm that i've understood the information correct and then the question that's
02:44:06 correct and then the question that's come back from the architect is then set out
02:44:09 out and it says this the queen's walk project requires materials to be class naught rated for far spread based on the attached bba certification is it correct that we can use pe core
02:44:20 is it correct that we can use pe core materials so a simple question is coming back
02:44:23 back again do you see that i do do you remember in general terms that there was a lot of pressing by genius facades relating to this project
02:44:35 project about getting more detailed information on fire performance i do remember that they were after some answers
02:44:44 answers yes now can we go to arc50688
02:44:57 and i want to look at page four of this chain
02:45:01 chain this is carrying on this story
02:45:06 so we can see that you sent an email on the 10th of december 2015 to tom dunn of genius facades saying that you'd spoken to claude verla
02:45:17 saying that you'd spoken to claude verla and he was going to ring tom you say hi tom i've spoken to claude earlier he said he was going to discuss with you the current issues has he called you and then tom what we see in this chain
02:45:28 and then tom what we see in this chain is tom dunn then chases about getting a call from
02:45:31 call from claude verla there's then obviously a missed call where mr vela does call genius facades but doesn't get through and then at the very top of this chain
02:45:42 and then at the very top of this chain we can see on page one a number of jpeg attachments are sent by mr verla
02:45:53 attachments are sent by mr verla to gray and burn tom dunn at genius and copying
02:45:57 copying you in actually you're not copied it's sent to you as well and the subject is re-frpe question and there's a number of attachments with
02:46:08 and there's a number of attachments with jpeg files that are sent now i just want to break off at this point and look at mr verla's witness statement where he explains to us what these
02:46:19 where he explains to us what these images
02:46:20 images were if we can go within claude vella's statement that's emmy chief three zeros five three one nine zero at page 32.
02:46:39 page 32. at paragraph 112 mr verla says on the 10th of december i spoke to and received a further e mail from vince and then from tom dunn requesting that i
02:46:50 then from tom dunn requesting that i call graham which i tried to do without success we did speak on the 11th of december and following that i sent genius some photos which were taken during a polish
02:47:01 polish fire test in 2005 which was a more stringent
02:47:06 stringent and perhaps rudimentary test than the en 13501
02:47:10 13501 one test but i thought most clearly demonstrated the difference between the pe
02:47:15 pe and fr products the following day i provided a letter to genius which confirmed that the bs 476 part 6 and 7 test
02:47:24 test does not distinguish between the pe and fr products as both are classified class naught
02:47:30 naught when tested in accordance with that standard
02:47:33 standard i also noted that those two products are very different in their behavior when exposed to a flame and we're going to look at that letter in a moment now do you remember looking at these images
02:47:45 do you remember looking at these images of the polish fire test that mr verla sent to you and to genius at this time in december 2015. no i don't remember looking at the images
02:47:58 images can we just uh have a look at those and this may
02:48:01 this may help as to whether you can recall looking at them if we can go to arc 50693
02:48:23 so um this these are images uh taken from the pe core reynabon test you can actually see if we blow up the top half of that photograph there is a
02:48:36 top half of that photograph there is a reference on the sample to a-l-p-e do you see that i do yes and it's dated the 22nd of july 2005. so these are the
02:48:47 the 22nd of july 2005. so these are the images from the polish tests and then and there were three photographs taken of that pe test this was the first one and then mr vela also sent if we can go
02:48:59 and then mr vela also sent if we can go to the next one which is arc 50691
02:49:17 there is the second image taken from that polish test of the pe chord acm
02:49:25 can you remember seeing that image i can't remember no i'm sorry again uh i was hoping that claude valley would have just
02:49:35 have just dealt with the technical issue that they were after so i honestly can't remember opening that
02:49:44 well he appears to be sending these images because what he's saying is that these tests show show much more clearly what the difference is between the pe and the fr product yes i assume so yes
02:49:58 and the fr product yes i assume so yes and then there's another image of the pe test taken after the fire is extinguished this is arc50692
02:50:11 we can see there that the panels have been completely consumed by fire in that test yes
02:50:16 test yes yes and then he sent two images of the fr core test the polish test if we can go to them they are arc 50694
02:50:37 if we can go to them they are arc 50694 that's the fr test and then if we can look at
02:50:41 look at um arc60595
02:50:56 so that appears to be the fr test after the
02:50:59 the flame and the crib have been extinguished you can see the extent of damage afterwards now can we just put up two images side by side from that run i want to put up arc50691
02:51:13 i want to put up arc50691 and arc60694
02:51:23 now i appreciate we don't know how long it is into these two tests but we've we've seen what the end result is um these photos are pretty striking aren't they
02:51:35 i'm sorry yes you could see the fire yes do you remember
02:51:41 remember looking at these photographs and seeing how differently these two products performed in fire no i don't i'm sorry
02:51:52 can we agree that had you looked at these photographs you would have appreciated that they performed very differently in fire if if i'd have read the email that had come through
02:52:03 that had come through and and the pictures up at a later date uh it was very early on as i say in my employment again i probably would have done for sure but
02:52:14 i probably would have done for sure but at that moment in time i you know i don't i can't say so is your evidence that you you just can't tell us you can't say whether or not you looked
02:52:25 you can't say whether or not you looked at these images at this time or not i didn't look at the images and i didn't read the email in full so i i wouldn't have seen these pictures at that time i'm afraid i'm sorry but wasn't this vitally important
02:52:37 but wasn't this vitally important information for you to be aware of when you're selling these products to the uk market
02:52:45 i would i was really hoping as i mentioned before that the technical team would have answered all the questions that needed to be answered for the client and i'm afraid i didn't look at the
02:52:56 and i'm afraid i didn't look at the photographs or read the email in depth i assumed that the product that we had was fit for purpose as it had been prior 30 years had been installed in the uk
02:53:08 installed in the uk so i i assume that the product was was fit for purpose or the products but what we've seen is in that a series of emails mr verlo is
02:53:19 in that a series of emails mr verlo is trying to convey at least at the end of these chains that the products are performing very differently under fire and that the national test the class naught test and indeed the french national test
02:53:31 indeed the french national test doesn't expose those those differences were you not aware of that i i can see that now i don't think it was explained to me uh in any urgency that this is the case
02:53:43 uh in any urgency that this is the case uh it should have been looking back on it uh
02:53:47 it uh you know these this should have been quite clearly put to me you know that these uh two products are completely different uh and it wasn't
02:53:59 if we could go to arc50696
02:54:17 this is mr verlo on the 14th of december saying to you graeme byrne and tom dunn he says dear graham following our phone call on friday please find and close the
02:54:28 call on friday please find and close the document on our letterhead to confirm the discussion i hope this document added to the photos i sent on friday will help to unlock the situation
02:54:39 will help to unlock the situation i stay at your disposal for any further question
02:54:42 question and as mr vela referred to in his witness statement and we saw earlier he wrote a letter on this project uh on alcoa headed letter paper
02:54:55 uh on alcoa headed letter paper about this question if we can get just go to that letter this is a arc5069
02:55:05 there was an attachment to that email it's
02:55:08 it's we can see it here it's to genius facades dated the 14th of december 2015 and he says dear partners we kindly are coming back to you concerning the issues you have on the reign of on fire
02:55:20 you have on the reign of on fire reaction class in the uk the british standard bs 476 part six and seven are not relevant to distinguish between our rainer bond pe and our reynabond fr both are classified
02:55:32 and our reynabond fr both are classified class naught when tested in accordance with this standard but those two products are very different in their far in their behavior when exposed to a flame this difference is shown when tested in
02:55:44 this difference is shown when tested in accordance with the european standard en13501 where following classes are achieved
02:55:50 achieved rainer bomb p e class e raynabon fr class
02:55:54 class b if further help and advice is required then please let us know and we will be happy to look for a solution now do you remember reading at this letter
02:56:05 letter i remember graeme getting a letter uh and
02:56:08 and but i i don't remember the ins and outs of the letter
02:56:15 do you have a recollection of reading it even if you don't remember the detail of what was in it no i don't i'm afraid i'm sorry wasn't this a fairly unusual step for
02:56:26 wasn't this a fairly unusual step for mr vella's team to have to issue technical information in a formal letter uh i i wasn't sure i mean i've never come across it before so
02:56:38 come across it before so uh i i wasn't entirely sure if that was the
02:56:41 the the the right sort of thing that people or the common sort of thing that a fabricator or someone would ask for um so i'm not you know i can't answer that
02:56:52 so i'm not you know i can't answer that question i'm afraid i've never never come across it before well given that you haven't come across it before and and we've seen it a pretty short letter doesn't take long to read isn't it likely that you would have read
02:57:03 isn't it likely that you would have read it and digested it at the time no it's not i mean i would have started as i said before anything technical uh initially in 2015 when i started with
02:57:14 uh initially in 2015 when i started with the company when this letter was being sent i would have just hoped that the the issue with uh the the the products that the customer had would have been rectified by the technical team
02:57:27 rectified by the technical team and i wouldn't have actually digested that in full this letter tells you that the p e is class e contrary to the statement in the bba certificate that it was class b
02:57:39 bba certificate that it was class b surely you noticed that no no i'm afraid i didn't i'm sorry
02:57:45 did you come away with the clear message that the national testing didn't flush out sufficiently what the true fire performance differences were between these two
02:57:57 differences were between these two products
02:57:58 products no i'm afraid i didn't sorry because i didn't digest it would you agree that genius facades and their client had to press very hard for the information about the
02:58:11 very hard for the information about the difference between the pe and the fr products i would agree to that yes they were asking me to contact claude in the technical on several occasions yes yes they had to come back again
02:58:23 yes yes they had to come back again and again before they got any proper information about the fire performance of those products you accept that i do accept that that's correct yes
02:58:34 following this episode did you tell customers that raynabon pe was a european class e product that performed badly in fire uh in answer to your question no uh i
02:58:46 uh in answer to your question no uh i didn't ever specify any pe on my project so uh that would never have come up
02:58:55 so you're saying that after this point you just never discuss pe with anybody no i'm not saying that i would have discussed pe as a standard core
02:59:03 core as i mentioned before and the fr being a retardant
02:59:07 retardant a fire retardant core but the projects that i was dealing with the new projects that were coming up were generally specified an fr product but if they weren't would you tell
02:59:19 but if they weren't would you tell customers
02:59:20 customers that raynabon pe was european class e and perform badly in fire it depend on where the what the circumstances were depend on what the building was if the building was obviously a large
02:59:32 if the building was obviously a large tower
02:59:33 tower then the the pe conversation would never have come up because they wouldn't be specifying that on the building uh if it was an if you know if it was a low rise building
02:59:44 low rise building uh again i wouldn't have i wouldn't ask that question because they were specifying the pe product hopefully knowing that what it was you know in
02:59:54 know in it being sold into the uk for for many many years and i assumed that they would understand what a pu product was a standard core did you ever question whether it was
03:00:05 did you ever question whether it was right to continue to supply rain upon pe given its e-classification and its poor performance in fire of of course after the the tragedy the
03:00:16 of of course after the the tragedy the fire
03:00:17 fire uh we stopped manufacturing the product and of course then i'm not asking about after the fire i'm asking about after this episode with genius facades and this letter being
03:00:29 genius facades and this letter being written
03:00:30 written did you ever question whether it was right to continue to supply reinaborn pe given its e-classification and its poor performance in fire did i ever question it sorry with my uh
03:00:42 did i ever question it sorry with my uh appears with with the with with alconic no i didn't i'm afraid no i didn't can you help us as to why not because i assumed as i said before
03:00:53 assumed as i said before uh that the product uh was fit for purpose in the uk uh the bba obviously was stating different things uh and where it came for specifications on the architectural side then
03:01:06 on the architectural side then that the question the ppe pe never come up
03:01:09 up so i never had that quite i never had the reason to question or or mention that because it was very rarely specified and if it was
03:01:19 if it was then it would have been changed what about existing projects which were ongoing where pe was being supplied to those projects did you ever
03:01:30 you ever question whether it was appropriate to continue to supply those products to projects like the grenfell tower project i understand i again didn't have any
03:01:41 i understand i again didn't have any dealings with those projects so i was unaware of what was specified for the projects at the time and no i never questioned because i was never asked the question
03:01:55 mr chairman i'd make the time that's that's a good moment for a break in any event
03:02:00 event thank you yes you haven't finished with mr meekins i take it no i'm afraid i haven't um and i've i've got a probably around an hour
03:02:11 i've got a probably around an hour still to go with him i'm afraid um i will view my notes over the lunch hour but there there aren't and i'll be as quick as i can this afternoon but
03:02:22 can this afternoon but um i do have some more questions i would like to put to this witness this afternoon
03:02:26 afternoon right yes very well well thank you very much uh well there we are mr meekins we're gonna have a break now so we can all get some lunch we'll come back at two o'clock please okay sir thank you please remember not
03:02:37 okay sir thank you please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence or any aspect of it break and we'll see you a bit later on two o'clock all right thank you very much two o'clock everyone thank you
03:03:07 you