Arconic Evidence - Thursday 11th February 2021 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:02 good afternoon everyone welcome back we're going to continue uh hearing evidence from mr meekins so first thing i'm going to do is to see if mr meekins is there and

00:00:13 mr meekins is there and whether he can hear me and see me clearly mr meekins i can hear you and see you clearly sir yes very good thank you very much um well then ms grange

00:00:25 um well then ms grange it's over to you thank you very much yes thank you mr chairman yes mr meekins can i just pick up on a few points from the evidence just before the break um

00:00:36 the evidence just before the break um you told us that you your induction consisted of a week in france

00:00:41 france and then you were back in the uk and then you went back to france again were you back in france in time for a sales meeting on the 2nd of july 2015 do you think

00:00:53 uh i can't recall i can't honestly be certain

00:00:57 certain i don't remember a sales meet uh

00:01:01 i may well have been but i can't be certain i'm sorry okay i'll come to some documents in a little while in your evidence that might help you recollect that but we just wanted to clarify that at this

00:01:12 we just wanted to clarify that at this stage um

00:01:13 stage um and you said in your evidence that you didn't appreciate during your training and induction that pe was combustible but that there did come a time when you came to appreciate that

00:01:24 came to appreciate that um when was that and how did you learn of that

00:01:30 well i think for certain after the grenfell fire i think everybody was more aware of how combustible the pe really is but up until that time

00:01:44 really is but up until that time i was pretty much uh you know i knew it was a a standard core but really didn't know that it was as combustible as what it's turned out to be

00:01:54 to be so are you saying now that you didn't think it was combustible at all prior to the grenfell fire i i was unaware that it was uh combustible in a sense where it would

00:02:06 combustible in a sense where it would fuel in a fire uh if you like uh but i'm not very technically minded so in a way i was i knew it was a pe

00:02:17 in a way i was i knew it was a pe core standard core i knew it was some form of plastic but i didn't realize it was as combustible as what it turned out to be i appreciate that but but if you'd been

00:02:28 i appreciate that but but if you'd been asked let's say in 2016 this core this p call is it a combustible material what would your answer have been i think it probably would have been

00:02:41 you know it's a very difficult question to answer because if i would never have been selling or involved in a product uh if i knew how combustible it was so i probably would have said it would

00:02:53 so i probably would have said it would it's our standard core it has some form of plastic in it uh but i wouldn't necessarily have said it's highly combustible material because i was unaware of that i didn't realize

00:03:06 unaware of that i didn't realize i appreciate you might not have said it was a highly combustible material but would you have said it was a combustible material

00:03:13 material i probably wouldn't have done the answer to that is probably not i would have said it's a standard core it may

00:03:20 it may uh no i i really sorry i can't really answer that question and say it would i would have said it was a combustible material because i you know if i for for any reason

00:03:33 i you know if i for for any reason thought that it would have been a very combustible two or a combustible material then i would have asked questions to why we were selling it at all i see did you ever discuss the combustibility

00:03:45 did you ever discuss the combustibility of polyethylene with claude verla or any member of his technical team in in merck time in france

00:03:52 france i can't recall ever uh talking to them about the combustible material the pe material no you have no recollection of that sort of discussion at all i have no recollection of talking about combustibility and pe no

00:04:06 talking about combustibility and pe no talking about combustibility at all in relation to any of the rayner bond products

00:04:12 i can honestly say no i can't remember that we had a conversation about the products being combustible i see did you ever discuss the combustibility

00:04:23 did you ever discuss the combustibility of pe

00:04:24 of pe with any fabricators uh in the years 2015

00:04:28 2015 2016.

00:04:32 i'm trying to think if there was an instance that we we spoke about combustibility

00:04:40 prior to the grenfell fire uh and there was there's nothing that stands out in my mind that i i would have spoken to

00:04:49 spoken to any fabricators with regards to combustibility and pe what about its poor fire performance did you ever discuss its poor fire performance in general terms with

00:05:00 fire performance in general terms with any fabricators in 2015 2016 and prior to the prior prior to the fire i i can't recall i can't remember ever

00:05:13 i can't recall i can't remember ever talking to any fabricators about the combustibility of pe now and what about with any other customers in the uk discussing the poor fire performance of pe

00:05:24 the poor fire performance of pe do you have any recollection of that uh i can't

00:05:27 i can't unless i would have been asked the question i i can't remember being asked any direct question about how combustible pe was uh so in answer to that question i i

00:05:39 uh so in answer to that question i i just can't i can't remember i'm afraid sorry i see thinking back to your induction then and when you uh met the teams in france um did you

00:05:50 met the teams in france um did you discuss with them the fact that the standard core for the rainer bond product in the uk was the pe core

00:05:59 uh yes because uh standard core would in my eyes was a standard black pe core at that time i see and was there any discussion at

00:06:10 i see and was there any discussion at that time

00:06:11 that time about the difference between the standard pe core and the fr core with claude verla and his team or anyone else at mexico

00:06:22 i was aware that the the pe corps was a standard call and the fr core was a fire retardant core but that's as far as it i understood it

00:06:35 but that's as far as it i understood it to be

00:06:37 to be i'm sorry that's no so the level of your understanding never went beyond that is that your evidence yes it is yeah

00:06:51 did your understanding about reynabond pe's performance in fire ever change during the time that you worked at arconic i think with uh specifications that were

00:07:04 i think with uh specifications that were coming through on the market and they're being asked for uh an fr core over a pe core then sure it changed you know i'd ask the question to why not a pe core and it doesn't perform

00:07:16 not a pe core and it doesn't perform very well in a fire uh so it needs to be specified an fe fr core in this case but that would be as far as it it sort of went really i see and when

00:07:28 it sort of went really i see and when when did those kind of discussions start taking place where you were being told that the reason they didn't want a pe call was because it didn't perform well in fire

00:07:39 because it didn't perform well in fire i'm trying to think of an instance a particular project but it would have been uh a a main contractor or a a specifier or

00:07:50 main contractor or a a specifier or someone that would have specified that it had to be an fr core because that was what was written in the specification because they they wouldn't accept a pe core as a standard core uh so i would obviously put forward the

00:08:03 uh so i would obviously put forward the fire retardant the fr core and when that was brought to your attention by these main contractors or other professionals did you go back to merck time and have a conversation with them

00:08:15 conversation with them about still selling the pe core if it performed worse in fire i can honestly say i didn't know

00:08:27 i can honestly say i didn't know can we have a look at something that mr verla says in his witness statement at this point if we can pull that up that's at

00:08:36 met3053190 at page 27

00:08:47 and i want to look at paragraph 94 of this statement in the first two sentences in that in that paragraph

00:08:59 two sentences in that in that paragraph so uh mr burler says this since pe polyethylene is a plastic it is of course combustible in other words it will when exposed to heat and or to a flame

00:09:12 when exposed to heat and or to a flame in due course catch fire this is something that would certainly be very well known by anyone in the construction industry

00:09:20 industry who is involved with the specification purchase

00:09:23 purchase fabrication or use of cladding or cladding systems so that's mr verla's evidence now i think you told us this morning is this right that when you began working for auconic you

00:09:36 when you began working for auconic you didn't know that pe was combustible and when exposed to heat or flame would catch fire is that correct that was never explained to me when i

00:09:47 that was never explained to me when i started with the company as far as i was concerned it was a standard core i would have questioned it at that early stage asking to why we manufactured this

00:09:58 stage asking to why we manufactured this product

00:09:58 product if it was at all combustible in that way so

00:10:03 so that was my understanding it was just the standard pe with a with the amount of plastic in the core but nothing was ever put that puts me like that when i when i

00:10:14 put that puts me like that when i when i started the company i see so mr verla didn't say anything like this to you when you started at the company

00:10:21 company were you ever told something like this by anyone else arconic uh prior to the grenfell fire no no one has ever spoken to me about

00:10:32 no no one has ever spoken to me about the

00:10:32 the the flame and it will catch fire in a fire it was it had an amount of plastic in it so you assume later on

00:10:43 plastic in it so you assume later on uh which i did when you get speaking to um

00:10:47 um contractors and mainly fabricators that know their business inside out would say that it can't be a a plastic core and it has to be an fr because it's been specified

00:10:58 been specified but that's as far as my i was ever i was ever told

00:11:03 ever told i was never told that in that word

00:11:08 do you ever recall mr verla or anyone else at arconic telling you about how long it took for rayna bond pe to catch fire in the event of a fire

00:11:19 pe to catch fire in the event of a fire event

00:11:21 event no i can't recall ever being told that were you ever told about its performance in fire once the fire had begun within the panels

00:11:32 no i was never told that

00:11:35 did you ever learn anything about the effect that different fixing methods so for example the difference between a rivet and a cassette might have on the fire performance of

00:11:46 might have on the fire performance of rayna bond acm panels with a pe core

00:11:52 i can't recall ever been um told that personally no i don't remember i may have heard it somewhere but i honestly can't remember anyone

00:12:03 but i honestly can't remember anyone telling me on a one-to-one basis that this is the case can you say you may have heard it somewhere do you mean you might have heard it somewhere within the company or external to the company

00:12:15 the company or external to the company well it could have been external to the company i can't or it may have been at the company i've been too long ago for me to remember exactly but uh

00:12:27 remember exactly but uh i'm sorry i can't i can't answer that in honest

00:12:30 honest so just so we're clear you're saying that you didn't know there was a difference between how the rivet performed and how the cassette pe panels performed i can't no i don't honestly believe that

00:12:42 i can't no i don't honestly believe that anyone's told me that they perform differently in a fire

00:12:50 now we've already seen in your training and you've told us that you learned that there was an fr version of rayna bond um what were you told about that fr core version were you given any details about

00:13:04 it uh uh

00:13:09 uh uh i was told that it was a fire retardant product

00:13:13 product that was used within the core uh but that's as far really as it that i was told and uh obviously the competitors were using that product at the time

00:13:25 were using that product at the time but that's about it really were you told about what the core actually comprised of uh it's probably in writing or in some

00:13:36 uh it's probably in writing or in some literature somewhere but no i can't recall ever being told of what the build-up of the product was so you didn't know that it was a 70 mineral fiber and 30

00:13:47 mineral fiber and 30 thermoplastic i do now uh but i didn't at that time no and at that time are you talking about your induction or are you talking about any time when you were selling rainer

00:13:58 any time when you were selling rainer bond before sorry i'm talking about the induction when i first started with the company you know i didn't really know the difference between the two cores at all

00:14:09 difference between the two cores at all and they they didn't help you with that no one was fire retardant one was uh a standard call were you not curious as to precisely what the fr

00:14:21 what the fr core comprised of and wanted to know so you could

00:14:24 you could sell it to your customers well looking back on it um i knew the two calls were different i knew one was slightly cheaper than the other one and i honestly believed that

00:14:36 other one and i honestly believed that it was

00:14:36 it was it may have been down to the client's budget of some type uh early on i'm talking when i started with a company um to make that quite clear

00:14:45 clear because i was quite naive and new to the company not realizing what the two were i mean i knew that one was a fire retardant because it's fr i knew the pe was a standard core and i

00:14:56 i knew the pe was a standard core and i knew it

00:14:57 knew it standing for polyethylene but that was as far as it went were you told that there was a difference in the type of applications that the two cores could be used for no that as far as i was concerned

00:15:12 for no that as far as i was concerned the application the two cores could be used in the same application so did you think were you told that both cores could be used on a high-rise building

00:15:25 high-rise building i was at that time told uh i don't think the

00:15:28 the the conversation came up about high-rise buildings when i first started with the pro

00:15:33 pro with the company and what product to use and what not product to use um i learned that myself later on down the line so i wasn't specifically told by anybody at arconic on the technical

00:15:46 by anybody at arconic on the technical team

00:15:47 team not to use a pe at certain heights i see and you say you learn that yourself later on down the line

00:15:58 line when did you learn that well i think i learned

00:16:01 learned talking to fabricators main contractors and of course reading through the literature as it goes on uh and knowing that uh that you use the fr on on most

00:16:13 that you use the fr on on most applications and that was my my main remit was to sell the fr product i mean we were told to uh for alan flackon when he when he was the managing director was to

00:16:25 he was the managing director was to uh focus on all of our efforts on fr and because that's the way it was at the time but

00:16:33 time but i didn't really think of any any difference i think when when were you told by alan flackon that you were just focused on selling the fr product that would have been at sales

00:16:44 product that would have been at sales means when we had uh the sales meets it was like we really do need want to progress uh with the uh the fr sales um and uh you know promote that and and it's in

00:16:57 you know promote that and and it's in the

00:16:57 the the market dictated that that's what was being used the fr product and uh and that's what was being specified so really it was more or less selling itself to be

00:17:08 it was more or less selling itself to be honest

00:17:10 honest were you ever told in terms not to sell the pe

00:17:13 the pe product or at least not to sell it for certain applications no i wasn't no

00:17:22 did there come a time when you appreciated that the pe core ought not to be used for tall buildings yes there was at the time was obviously after the grenfell fire

00:17:33 fire uh and probably a year running up to the grenfell

00:17:37 grenfell uh fire the tragedy uh that the pe wasn't being specified for buildings at certain heights so the only specification i was putting

00:17:48 so the only specification i was putting forward would have been the fr or the uh the a2 i'm sure we'll come to some stage that we were trying to manufacture and break into the market with is it your

00:17:59 break into the market with is it your evidence

00:18:00 evidence that you knew for the year running up to the grenfell fire that pe should not be specified for tall buildings because it was dangerous to do so

00:18:09 so that was my understanding that people weren't yet specifying the pe product on tall buildings [Music]

00:18:18 [Music] yes and did you ever have a conversation with claude verla and his team about that at the time

00:18:27 i i can't recall ever having a conversation with claude verley or the team about specifying pe on on high-rise buildings or anything over a certain height

00:18:38 a certain height uh probably would have been mentioned maybe at a sales meeting but that was the standard practice at that time running up

00:18:49 that time running up uh everybody was specifying an fr product so that's what's been put through to the market

00:18:57 market was it a more general conversation without reference to tall buildings that pe shouldn't be specified at all on architectural projects because it was dangerous

00:19:08 dangerous i think it was probably a general sort of conversation along the lines um but i was dictated to by an awful lot with

00:19:15 with the fabricators that would specify or the architect would specify or you know that's the product that needs to be used on these buildings so that's what was being put forward i

00:19:26 that's what was being put forward i appreciate you saying that you were being pushed in that direction by your effectively your clients your fabricators and those that were specifying but but what were the messages you were getting from merczium in france

00:19:39 getting from merczium in france about the use of pe in architecture and its safety

00:19:46 well i i guess we were being as i said before we were trying to promote and focus on the fr product and that was something that we were very keen to do

00:19:58 something that we were very keen to do um but yeah there was no real conversations over what not to put on a building and what to put on a building if that makes any sense if you

00:20:09 sense if you excuse me yeah were you told why you had to focus on selling the fr product by maxheim

00:20:21 product by maxheim i think that's the we were told that that's the way the market was was going that was the trade i mean everybody was using fr materials our competitors were using majority of them were using fr material um

00:20:34 them were using fr material um so we were just focused on that i know we were manufacturing it and we really wanted to sort of uh make a dent in the market if you like you know by

00:20:45 you know by by using fr was that specifically because people were aware at that point that it was not safe to use pe

00:20:55 use pe on architectural projects so are you talking about the people in merks up

00:21:03 i'm not 100 sure on that i'm not i don't know i can't answer your question on that because we were just told that the fr product is the one that needs to be in the forefront really no one's ever

00:21:15 in the forefront really no one's ever mentioned

00:21:17 mentioned anymore and what did you actually do to focus on the fr product did you only offer fr what steps did you take to implement that direction

00:21:29 implement that direction i think you know as i said before that the market dictates to to to me i'm not sure how it works in other industries but i would be asked for these products

00:21:40 for these products uh or i would see if i was working on a building

00:21:44 building and it was a certain height or the building warranted uh a fire retardant product then that's the product that i would specify and put forward but it doesn't always work like that

00:21:55 always work like that because there are obviously uh fabricators and and alike that will order the material

00:22:03 material without me knowing what the building was what height it was or or what the building consists of so that was entirely out of my hands you know they would they would purchase it direct through france

00:22:17 i see and did that ever prompt a conversation between you and anyone at merczheim

00:22:23 merczheim about the status of existing projects where pe was being used

00:22:31 it's a very difficult conversa sorry difficult question to answer for me because

00:22:35 because a lot of the projects that were specified

00:22:38 specified or spoke about weren't necessarily the project's

00:22:41 project's names that they've given because they've um fabricators are very they like to keep their projects close to their their hearts and they won't tell you exactly what it is because they're

00:22:52 exactly what it is because they're worried that the specification or the project will get out and it will be priced elsewhere so i can only answer on my side of things and that would be

00:23:03 on my side of things and that would be none of the questions really were asked about what were in the pipeline what projects were there and weren't there so

00:23:12 i see you've just explained about what was happening with the fabricators and what you were aware of through them i'm asking about merc time did you ever have a conversation

00:23:23 conversation with someone at merck time about uh the fact that p he be was being used on existing projects and about the safety of that no no i

00:23:35 and about the safety of that no no i understand sorry i misunderstood your question now the answer to that question no i can't recall having a conversation uh i just can't remember having a conversation with anybody at murkstein

00:23:46 conversation with anybody at murkstein about that if we can look back again at paragraph 32.2 of your statement on page 11.

00:24:07 right page 11 of your statement yes

00:24:13 so we looked actually we looked at 32.1 before

00:24:17 before but just looking at 32.2 below that you say

00:24:20 say none of the acm with an fr core was considered non-combustible or of limited combustibility do you see that there yes i didn't see that yet

00:24:32 that yet so what was your understanding of um how you could categorize the fr core from a combustibility point of view if it wasn't non-combustible or of limited

00:24:44 it wasn't non-combustible or of limited combustibility what was your understanding about what it was

00:24:49 in my terms i would say the fr product would have been a a product that didn't catch fire does that make sense

00:25:01 does that make sense right if that's your evidence were you told anything more specific about the fire performance of the fr product during your induction and training for archonic

00:25:14 and training for archonic no i can't recall i was

00:25:21 okay were you ever aware that the fr core met

00:25:24 core met certain classifications either national or

00:25:28 or for example european

00:25:32 i i recall that there was a yes i was aware and what what standards did it meet the fr core as far as you were told by mexican

00:25:43 core as far as you were told by mexican well i assume from what i understood it was a spread of flame a zero rate does that make do you understand do i say that are you saying it was national class naught the fr yes

00:25:55 naught the fr yes right that was your understanding was it that was my understanding yes

00:26:05 now mr verla gives some evidence about the training um that was delivered by maximum in his witness statement if we can look at that it's at met three zeros five three one

00:26:18 it's at met three zeros five three one nine

00:26:18 nine zero at page 36 and i want to look at paragraph one two four

00:26:34 so this is mr verla's witness statement he says i've also been asked to confirm whether arconic provides training to its staff and contractors in relation to the technical performance

00:26:45 in relation to the technical performance of its products including in respect of fire performance in relation to our conic employees and external sales teams this training occurs in different forms

00:26:57 this training occurs in different forms that includes information on technical matters being provided to relevant employees as part of their on-boarding process this is usually at least a half day

00:27:08 this is usually at least a half day session

00:27:09 session and the content will depend upon the particular role of the employee for example if they were responsible for sales into france there may be a greater focus on french related technical

00:27:20 related technical certifications

00:27:24 do you see that there now do you remember undergoing a half day session with mr verla and his team as part of the induction process i can remember some

00:27:37 induction process i can remember some time yes it could have been a half day uh training period vaguely and is he right that that half day session

00:27:48 session for you had a greater focus on uk related technical certifications

00:27:56 i can't honestly say that it was related to the uk performance no

00:28:04 so does that mean you don't think it did that or you just have no recollection i really have no recollection recollection of him ever talking about the regulations

00:28:16 him ever talking about the regulations uh for the uk no

00:28:20 so you don't think he said anything to you about the uk regulatory regime yes i can't remember him yeah i just can't remember that conversation or there was some training obviously

00:28:31 or there was some training obviously half a day training but i can't remember i'm never sorry i can't remember that far but i can't remember that being said and what about particular certifications that were held

00:28:42 that were held by the reynabon product range which were relevant to the uk market were you told about that

00:28:50 again and i i really can't recall i can't remember things being mentioned about the uk did you receive any briefing on um

00:29:02 did you receive any briefing on um any bba certificates at this time

00:29:07 sorry are we talking about my my my induction course aren't we no there was nothing mentioned about the bba at my uh induction courts so were you unaware throughout your induction that there was

00:29:19 throughout your induction that there was a bba certificate that was relevant to the reyna bond architectural wall panels there was a bba certificate that was in the literature uh but certainly i was aware there was

00:29:31 uh but certainly i was aware there was one

00:29:32 one but there was no discussion uh in-depth discussion about it no and you were aware from based on your own knowledge and your own research or you were told that by merck sign that

00:29:44 or you were told that by merck sign that there was this bba certificate in existence

00:29:47 existence it would have been in the literature pack and there would have been a bba certificate of some type there if i remember uh that far back

00:29:54 far back so i would have seen the bba kite mark um but that would have been as far as it went really you talked there about

00:30:05 it went really you talked there about the literature pack what was the literature pack it would have been some brochures um again just bear with me sir i'm trying to think back and wrap my brain on what

00:30:17 to think back and wrap my brain on what the literature would have been it would have been some brochures on the products and

00:30:22 and as i say the bba certification may have been in there i remember seeing a bba document but you know just basic information about the products really in

00:30:34 information about the products really in the literature and literally brochures and was that a physical hard copy pack you were provided with or was it some kind of electronic um batch of information it would have

00:30:45 um batch of information it would have been a hard uh if i remember a binder yeah so we've been in a binder i see were you told about that there was a difference between the building regulations regimes in

00:30:57 the building regulations regimes in england and wales as between that and scotland no i can't recall ever being told the differences

00:31:06 about the two or three i see let's look at page 14 of your witness statement now and paragraph 42.

00:31:24 so it's at the bottom of that page i just want to look at what you say in the first four lines you say prior to the grenfell tower of fire my level of knowledge about matters such as the uk building regulations

00:31:35 regulations approved documents and industry guidance in relation to fire performance matters was limited which is not surprising in circumstances where my role was is purely a sales role

00:31:49 um was any part of your training or induction

00:31:54 induction directed at the building regulations or the practical guidance in the approved documents

00:32:04 i really can't recall anything being mentioned

00:32:08 mentioned uh so the the answer would have to be i'm sorry i can't i can't remember but it's very doubtful i don't think it was did you know about

00:32:19 i don't think it was did you know about the existence of approved document b on fire safety between 2015 and 2017 while you worked in your

00:32:28 in your role as uk as sales manager i'm sorry can you repeat that question yeah did you know about the existence of approved document b on fire safety between 2015 and

00:32:41 on fire safety between 2015 and june 2017. uh i i i no i can honestly say i didn't look into the any any regulations where it comes to that no so you didn't even know there was

00:32:54 no so you didn't even know there was something called approved document b on fire safety you didn't know that i would have heard of the document but i haven't read it and i can't to tell you the in-depth wording of it because i knew it was there but the contents of

00:33:06 i knew it was there but the contents of it

00:33:07 it i can't recite to you i can't tell you during your training were you made aware that there was stricter guidance about cladding materials for use on high-rise buildings

00:33:23 i'm sorry i'm trying to think again just bear with me if i just if i pause because i'm drastically trying to think back to the that them times and i can't recall uh we knew that there was regulations at

00:33:36 uh we knew that there was regulations at a certain height but i can't recall what what date that would have been or what year it would have been

00:33:43 have been um so i'm sorry i can't remember if that was ever mentioned

00:33:56 did you know at any time that there was special guidance within adb approved document b about high-rise buildings and the types of cladding materials that could be used

00:34:07 cladding materials that could be used over 18 meters

00:34:10 at any time yeah yeah uh i knew that obviously as i mentioned before that we couldn't use a certain product over the 18 18 meters but i no i don't i can't

00:34:23 18 meters but i no i don't i can't recite the document i wouldn't be able to tell you what the document actually meant

00:34:28 so you were never curious enough to to see what

00:34:31 see what that guidance said about what you could and couldn't use over 18 meters

00:34:40 i was it's easy for me to say this but we had a technical team and the technical team were the ones that would have told me if there are any issues with the bbe bba certificate or if there are any

00:34:51 bba certificate or if there are any things we could or couldn't do with the material so i relied on them to give me

00:34:57 give me up-to-date information on anything that we needed to know but as a salesperson and a sales representative of these panels in the uk

00:35:08 representative of these panels in the uk didn't you need to know and have at least a basic understanding of the circumstances in which panels could be used on tall buildings

00:35:19 i agree i think we you know i had a knowledge of what as i said to you before what product could be used over 18 meters and what couldn't and the fr product was being used over an 18 meter

00:35:31 an 18 meter uh but a far apart from fire performance i can honestly say the question i i've never been uh confronted by anybody to say look you can't use these on this

00:35:43 to say look you can't use these on this product

00:35:44 product on this project or this isn't acceptable in this market so i assumed which we shouldn't do that everything was a okay with the product and the product was

00:35:55 product and the product was perfectly suitable to be used in in the in the

00:35:59 in the conditions that i i was specifying it

00:36:04 did you know that both national and european

00:36:07 european classifications were both relevant to the use of railabon panels in the uk

00:36:17 no no i'm afraid i didn't so you didn't know that the practical guidance on fire safety cites both national classifications and european

00:36:28 classifications and european classifications we didn't know that these these were set out in a document of uh of what kind we talking about the bba certification

00:36:39 bba certification well that does it that has both european and national qualifications i said i was aware that they were a document and they were there in the document

00:36:49 document but i never really digested the document but were you aware in more general guidance

00:36:57 guidance around the building regulations that it was referring to both national and european classifications

00:37:05 i'm afraid i i i wasn't if i'm honest did you understand that the european classifications were relevant to the uk market

00:37:22 were relevant to the uk market yeah i no i can't honestly say i did so what classifications did you think were relevant to whether or not panels could be used in the uk

00:37:35 in the uk i you know as i mentioned before the bba certification uh was a a document that i thought was good enough for our material to to be

00:37:45 to to be to go on uh and assumed that uh everything in that document uh was good enough

00:37:53 enough uh for us to use our materials within the the uk market we'll come to look at it in

00:38:00 it in a little bit of detail later i'm going to take you to the bba certificate but did you ever read it yourself

00:38:08 i if again if i'm i've got to be honest absolutely honest with you i glanced over it i saw the bba certificate but i was reliant on the technical team in france uh to tell me that everything

00:38:20 in france uh to tell me that everything within that bba certificate was okay uh if it ever been brought up that this wasn't a document that was any good to us

00:38:27 us and we couldn't use it for whatever reason then i would have looked into it a lot more but i didn't i assumed that that document was a document that was okay for me to present in the uk

00:38:39 present in the uk i think were you ever made aware by merck time that there had been changes to certain fire classifications of certain products

00:38:54 i can't recall

00:39:03 do you recall there being any particular emphasis in your training on the uk regulatory requirements

00:39:15 on the uk regulatory requirements not in my training i can't recall uh that this was ever discussed uh uk no so thinking back to what mr verla said we just looked at it where he said there would be particular emphasis

00:39:27 said there would be particular emphasis in the training on whichever regulatory regime was relevant to that person

00:39:34 person is it your evidence that in your case that that didn't happen

00:39:40 i can honestly say that i i don't recall him ever talking to me about the uk regulations uh what can be done what can't be done uh i can't obviously talk for other people that he

00:39:51 obviously talk for other people that he may have trained but in my case i don't recall that did he ever say to you in general terms that the uk regulations were weak or soft

00:40:04 around the use of rain or bomb panels no that conversation never happened no i i never remember ever saying that

00:40:17 i see so you don't remember being given any information during your training about the technical requirements for uk sales in this country no i don't recall ever getting trained

00:40:31 no i don't recall ever getting trained on

00:40:32 on uh uk regulations okay can we just look at um i want to look at the document from 2014 now i appreciate this is before your time at iconic

00:40:44 time at iconic we can go to met three zeros five three one five eight and then it's underscore p07 at page 33.

00:40:59 it's met3053158 underscore p07 page 33 so this is a would appear to be some slides

00:41:09 slides from a sales meeting it's a rayna bond and ra

00:41:14 and ra raino luck sales meeting january 2014 and it's called technical assistance now i appreciate this is um more than a year before you started at

00:41:26 more than a year before you started at iconic but i want to ask you just about a couple of passages in here and see if you can help us if we go on to page 36 in this presentation

00:41:40 if we look at the bottom of that page or the second half of that page we can see that it says second paragraph up

00:41:49 up it says this please the person in charge of a country and or market has to check the certifications and qualifications needed to sail do you see that there

00:42:01 needed to sail do you see that there i can see that yes now so that appears to be

00:42:05 to be a message to whoever was in charge of a country or market to check the certifications and qualifications needed to make sales and now was that a message

00:42:18 sales and now was that a message ever given to you either during your induction initial training or later by merck time

00:42:26 i can't recall uh there ever being a message like that being given to me uh and obviously i can't comment on that it's the first time i've seen that document is before my time as you're aware

00:42:37 aware i can't recall ever seeing a document with that wording i'm afraid sorry appreciate i appreciate you haven't seen a document with that wording but more generally was that message ever

00:42:49 generally was that message ever conveyed to you by those at merck sign that they

00:42:53 that they were reliant on you to be looking out for

00:42:57 for relevant certifications in the jurisdiction that you were operating in certainly not because if it had been then it would have been a different scenario and i would have been looking out for that for sure so your evidence is that you

00:43:11 for sure so your evidence is that you you simply didn't have your eye on that at all no well not at all i just wasn't given that that message no one was ever no one ever asked me that or told me

00:43:23 no one ever asked me that or told me would like you to do that so no there was no there was never that sort of conversation with anybody did that ever feel uncomfortable selling a product

00:43:35 a product into a market where you were wholly unaware of what the regulatory regime was around that product uh i again um

00:43:46 uh i again um assumed that the technical team had provided me with everything that i needed for the uk market uh building regulations and everything uh and everything was

00:43:57 and everything uh and everything was okay

00:43:59 okay to uh present to the uk market and there were no changes ever told to me uh throughout my employment you know

00:44:10 uh throughout my employment you know that this this you can't use this or you shouldn't be doing this so i relied quite heavily on the technical team to tell me these these things here your technical team is

00:44:21 these things here your technical team is based in france uh did it not ever occur to you

00:44:25 to you that being located in the market operating in it on a day-to-day basis that you might actually be in a good position to make sure that the products were

00:44:37 to make sure that the products were being sold appropriately and in accordance with the relevant regulatory regime in the uk

00:44:46 it didn't occur to me the conversation never come up with with any of my fabricators or any of the people that i were working quite closely with that would have known about these these issues so nothing was pursued

00:44:59 these issues so nothing was pursued no it didn't occur to me let's go back can we go back to that presentation and look at the same slide we just had up on the screen

00:45:10 up on the screen so it's page 36 of the presentation the last kind of bullet on this page says this

00:45:21 kind of bullet on this page says this impossible for a project but check and ask in order to anticipate

00:45:29 now um it appears that um what that's encouraging you to or possibly encouraging you to do is to check what the certifications and

00:45:40 is to check what the certifications and qualifications might need be needed for particular projects again is that a message that was ever conveyed to you no not that i can recall no

00:45:58 now did your understanding of the relevant regulatory regime in the uk change during the period may 2015 through to june 2017 did you ever gain a greater

00:46:13 june 2017 did you ever gain a greater understanding of what the relevant relevant regime was in the uk

00:46:18 in the uk yes with the knowledge of uh the the experts

00:46:22 experts and uh people that i was working with uh that did change um over time yes and can you help us as to what in particular changed what did you become more aware of as

00:46:35 what did you become more aware of as time went on about the regulatory requirements in the uk uh i guess uh the overall the 18 meter height of a building uh as we mentioned before uh you know

00:46:47 uh as we mentioned before uh you know that that was that was quite clear uh that you want to use certain products over that height

00:46:54 um and and yeah that's and and that's about it really

00:47:02 it really and how quickly did you become aware of that that it was quite clear that you were not to use certain products over 18 meters well it was you know we were in conversations with uh

00:47:13 conversations with uh various different fabricators architects developers everybody that i worked with sort of we were speaking about it on a regular basis so we knew that that was the case

00:47:26 would you say that you would have known that that was the case by the end of 2015

00:47:30 2015 having started in the role in mid-2015 probably not no if i'm honest i started quite naive where it comes to regulations

00:47:41 regulations nothing was explained to me about them so i was still in my training visiting visiting fabricators and getting to know the uk market really

00:47:52 and getting to know the uk market really right the way until the end of 2015 so not necessarily no but by the end of 2016 would you say you did have that clear understanding about my knowledge was

00:48:05 understanding about my knowledge was getting better yes by the end of 2016 of the uh the markets and by the end of 2016 were you clear that you couldn't use certain products over 18 meters that was pretty much

00:48:19 over 18 meters that was pretty much pretty much so uh yeah it was being spoken about quite a lot so uh the conversations would come up quite regularly yes

00:48:29 and did you ever then relay those conversations back to murk time and say by the way the the mood music here is that we can't use certain products over 18 meters did you

00:48:41 certain products over 18 meters did you take that back sorry sorry no sorry buddy sorry i do that that would have apologi

00:48:48 apologi uh they would have known that would have been the the knowledge for sure by the end of uh 2017 uh i know claude valley and the team would have known that products should never have been used

00:49:00 products should never have been used over a certain height because if i was aware of it in the uk it would have been mentioned uh and he would have certainly have had that knowledge

00:49:08 knowledge did you mean to say 2017 just then or did you mean 2016. sorry 2017 yeah by the end of the end of 2017 i would assume he would have known that everything would have been uh

00:49:22 that everything would have been uh that regular you know regular regulations would have been over 18 by then

00:49:27 then you've said that by the end of 2016 you were clear that you couldn't use certain products over 18 meters was that also merc times understanding i can't be certain that they would have

00:49:39 i can't be certain that they would have known that by the end of 16 but as time went on they definitely would have been aware of it

00:49:47 is that just an assumption you're making or is that based on conversations or exchanges you actually had with it could have been a conversation that i would have had with france uh in the technical team

00:50:00 with france uh in the technical team uh at some stage i can't recall exactly when

00:50:04 when what date uh but i would have mentioned the over 18 meter situation and uh they would have been aware of it yeah

00:50:19 let's look at um page 15 of your witness statement now this is paragraph 43

00:50:34 and i just want to look at the first around the first nine lines of what you say in this paragraph so you say i do need to understand some of the

00:50:45 i do need to understand some of the terminology used in the industry in order to be able to speak the english industry language and i was of course aware for example that a product with an a2 core

00:50:56 that a product with an a2 core or an fr core would have a better fire performance rating than an equivalent product

00:51:02 product with a pe core that i was not aware of and was not involved in the technical detail behind that

00:51:11 that from a sales perspective i was aware that it was important to have a class naught rating for panels in terms of what i understood related to the potential spread of flame on the surface of panels

00:51:23 on the surface of panels but that's as far as my knowledge went and in the case of acm the surfaces are all the same i.e aluminium and therefore it was no surprise to me to understand that the rainer raynabon

00:51:35 to understand that the rainer raynabon product had that class naught rating whether that was for a pe fr or a2 core now just pausing there

00:51:48 you've said in the first couple of lines that it was important that you did have some of the terminology used in the industry in order to be able to speak the language

00:51:59 order to be able to speak the language on fire performance can you help us with what that terminology would have consisted of

00:52:08 i'm sorry can you can you uh in fire performance i don't understand what what what terminology would you have felt comfortable using about fire performance

00:52:19 comfortable using about fire performance in your role as sales manager in the years

00:52:23 years it would have been a class o or class zero

00:52:26 zero spread of flame uh and that's probably as far as it would have gone uh and the and the fr product being a fire retardant product um but that's as far as it would have

00:52:37 um but that's as far as it would have gone

00:52:40 i see i mean you say that um you talk about the different core performances and you say that you were of course aware that there were differences in fire performance between

00:52:52 differences in fire performance between the pe

00:52:52 the pe and the fr cores how did you become aware of that

00:52:59 as we mentioned before uh earlier on uh it would have been through you know talking to uh the fabricators and uh and the people i dealt with on a

00:53:11 and uh and the people i dealt with on a daily basis as time went on i became more and more aware of the differences in the core uh but that was self-taught if you like because i came into the industry with very little knowledge about the pe

00:53:23 with very little knowledge about the pe fr

00:53:24 fr a2 or whatever core it was at the time so

00:53:28 so my knowledge was very limited in 2015 all the way through until 2016 i learned this through talks with fabricators in the uk and

00:53:39 talks with fabricators in the uk and uh and specifiers and they told me a bit about where we were uh with fr and and pe uh but that's as far as my knowledge

00:53:50 uh but that's as far as my knowledge sort of went did you ever seek to verify that with your um superiors or with the technical team

00:53:58 team at merck time this knowledge that you were gaining about the different fire performance between fr and pe cores i assume my understanding was that the technical

00:54:09 my understanding was that the technical team understood that and they knew that they knew the difference obviously between a pe and an fr core and an a2 core because they're technical it was just on a personal level i was learning this through a second

00:54:21 i was learning this through a second source through my fabricators and my customers uh so i didn't feel the need to uh relay that back to france in any way because they i assume they already understood

00:54:33 they i assume they already understood and they knew what they should have done you know their technical team so how did you become aware of the class naught requirement where did that come from that was on the

00:54:44 where did that come from that was on the bba certificate so i'm aware of that but did anyone at merc time talk to you about what that meant what the significance of it was what test it had undergone to get that

00:54:58 what test it had undergone to get that no i can honestly say that that that was never

00:55:01 never taught me or explained to me how we came about getting that test uh or or that certificate it was just there

00:55:10 there in in writing on the bba

00:55:16 why was it no surprise to you this is what you've just said in your statement that we just read why was it no surprise to you

00:55:22 to you to understand that the rainer bond product had a class naught rating whether that was for the pe fr or a2 core i being the company they are i mean

00:55:34 i being the company they are i mean iconic are a huge organization they've been going for many years 30 years in the industry uh they that would have been the basic sort of thing that

00:55:45 sort of thing that you would assume that they would have uh so it was no surprise to me that we had the the class i write how did you know that class naught was the basic rating

00:55:56 the basic rating where did that knowledge come from well sorry i mentioned about it we that's just something that i i knew that was on the vba certificate and that is spread of flame it's

00:56:07 is spread of flame it's what it is you know it's that's what it's what do you mean when you say that's just spread of flame that what it that's what it is so it's coming across a bit sort of not not quite clear

00:56:19 not quite clear i i've seen it in the document i've read it in the document and i assumed that um a company like iconic would have that as a standard

00:56:30 a standard certification in the bba if we just look back at what what you've said in your statement paragraph 43 page 15.

00:56:50 you you say

00:56:53 if we pick it up one two three five lines down you say from a pet sales perspective i was aware it was important to have class naught rating and then a little bit further on you say

00:57:05 and then a little bit further on you say that's as follows as far as my knowledge went and then you say this in the case of acm the surfaces are all the same

00:57:14 the same i.e aluminium and therefore it was no surprise to me to understand that the rayna bond product had that class naught rating

00:57:24 so it does appear from that that you know a little bit more about testing than than you're saying because you're saying that you knew from the fact that the surfaces were all the same

00:57:35 fact that the surfaces were all the same but that meant there was no surprise about all those products having class naught is that right i what i mean by that is the the

00:57:46 i what i mean by that is the the aluminium

00:57:47 aluminium surface would it would be a spread of frame to a certain extent because it is an aluminium surface um yeah maybe my wording's not fantastic but that that's as far as i

00:58:00 fantastic but that that's as far as i knew

00:58:02 knew so you knew that the class naught test what your understanding was it was a surface spread of flame test yes that was my understanding yeah that it was a surface spread of flame test and

00:58:13 was a surface spread of flame test and yeah and did you learn that from somebody within arconic or did you learn that from somebody else i i think i learned that from somebody else along the line uh there was no

00:58:24 else along the line uh there was no reason for anybody to uh discuss that later on with me i think i picked that up uh off of a uh a customer along the line somewhere yeah was there

00:58:35 along the line somewhere yeah was there anything said about class naught in your training

00:58:41 i'm sorry i can't recall i can't think that way that far back so i really don't know i don't think so no

00:58:49 did you ever tell your customers that rayna bond panels had a class naught rating

00:58:54 rating regardless of the call

00:58:59 no i i don't recall ever speaking to any of my customers about a class o rating they generally would ask the question if they needed to know it but i never had that conversation with

00:59:10 but i never had that conversation with them unless i was asked so no i don't remember having a conversation so if they ask the question if they'd ask the question do all your panels or your rainer bomb panels have class

00:59:21 your rainer bomb panels have class naught what would the answer have been that you would have given at that time

00:59:25 that time depending on what what year we're talking uh the early stages of my employment or later on in my employment sorry can you help us uh what answer

00:59:37 sorry can you help us uh what answer would have you have given at the early stages of your employment the early stages of my employment i i probably wouldn't have been answered the question

00:59:44 question uh and it would have been it's it's in the bba

00:59:48 the bba document um and i would have asked the technical team to clarify or answer their question for them

00:59:57 them and did your knowledge about class naught ever change between then and the grenfell tower fire between the end of the grand field tower fire you you

01:00:08 fire you you you've gained a lot more knowledge yes down the line and what have you learned about class naught and the rhinobond products in that time

01:00:16 that time we i think the other reynabond product hasn't got a class naught and we know that

01:00:20 that for the pe um so uh that no longer exists um and yeah that's as far as i know when did you come to be aware of that

01:00:31 you come to be aware of that that the rainer bomb product didn't have class naught for the pe

01:00:37 i can't recall an exact date i mean again i would just be guessing i don't want to do that i i'm not sure of the year but along the line i would have certainly have known of it can you help

01:00:49 certainly have known of it can you help was that pre-fire was that pre the grenfell tower of fire that you became aware that the raynabon pe product did not have the class naught no that would be after the fire

01:01:07 what was it about the aluminium surface that told you that it would be class naught

01:01:16 because because it's a metal

01:01:21 two pieces of metal you assume that the the

01:01:24 the spread of flame would literally spread across the metal so that's how i become aware of that and it's very crude the way i'm trying to explain it but in my mind that's that was the the reason for it the spread of flame

01:01:37 reason for it the spread of flame did anyone within archonic ever explain that to you no nobody's explained that to me in

01:01:50 iconic what was your understanding of what class naught meant in terms of its use on buildings what was the significance of the material having class naught

01:02:04 material having class naught well it's purely a uh a regulation it's purely a document that needed to be had uh to to be able to sell the product within the the uk did you think that if it had

01:02:16 the uk did you think that if it had class naught you could use it on any building

01:02:18 building in the uk

01:02:22 i i can't answer that question i'm sorry i assume

01:02:26 i assume um

01:02:30 i don't know i can't answer that question

01:02:37 as we just read in your statement um you said that class naught was important from a sales perspective yes yes so did the label class nor positively assist you to make sales

01:02:50 positively assist you to make sales i think the bba certificate was a what was asked for on several occasions uh and if we didn't have a bba certification then the sale probably wouldn't have

01:03:01 then the sale probably wouldn't have gone forward uh because it's something that you know the kite mark in the uk is is is something that people uh take as a security blanket sometimes and uh and yes it did help with them with uh

01:03:14 uh and yes it did help with them with uh selling the product in the uk for sure were you ever made aware and i wanted to focus on the time pre-fire at the moment were you ever made aware that there was no test report

01:03:27 that there was no test report supporting reinaborn classification as class naught

01:03:36 i can't remember ever being no i can't remember ever being told this i can't remember i'm sorry so does it follow that

01:03:47 i'm sorry so does it follow that for the entire time 2015 2016 and up to june 2017 you understood that there were test reports supporting reynabon 55pe's

01:03:59 supporting reynabon 55pe's classification as national class naught yes i thought that that was kosher

01:04:08 we did have it now you also mentioned the euro class system in the in the paragraph that we've just read what did you know about that

01:04:19 read what did you know about that european classification system i didn't know an awful lot about the europe the appearing classic because i didn't really need uh at the early stages of my employment to know much

01:04:30 stages of my employment to know much about that so no i i don't know an awful lot was european classification covered at all in your induction or training

01:04:40 not european no it wouldn't have been no no so claude verla's technical team they didn't tell you anything about the european classification system and the significance of

01:04:51 significance of classifications under it i can't reca i can't honestly remember them talking to me about that the european classification though were you briefed on what classifications

01:05:03 were you briefed on what classifications the rayna bond product had under that european classification system

01:05:11 i again i i just can't remember ever being

01:05:15 being ever having this conversation or ever been told anything about the european classification did you subsequently come to learn about that european classification system while performing your role

01:05:27 your role i i got to know more about it yeah but again i didn't know the ins and outs of the european classification though did you know in very general terms that

01:05:39 did you know in very general terms that the classifications went from broadly a1 down to f did you know there were these letters yes i knew the letters yeah were there

01:05:51 yes i knew the letters yeah were there and did you know that a and b were at the top and the better end of the scale and e

01:05:57 and e and f were at the worst end of the scale in terms of fire performance uh to a certain extent i sort of knew

01:06:08 uh to a certain extent i sort of knew that these letters meant something uh and i assumed that a was the better and f would have been not so good if you'd seen something that said b

01:06:20 if you'd seen something that said b s one d naught would you have known what the

01:06:23 the s and the d were referring to

01:06:28 uh no i'd be guessing no i don't know exactly what they stand for you've mentioned in your statement we just looked at it and you mentioned a number of times the a2 core

01:06:40 a2 core you've mentioned it already in your evidence today did you appreciate that this was a reference to the european classification a2 i i didn't know we didn't have an a2

01:06:51 a2 i i didn't know we didn't have an a2 and haven't had an a2 in the uk so no i didn't

01:06:58 i see but it's right isn't it that before

01:07:01 before uh or around the time of the fire uh a2 was

01:07:05 was being talked about more and more is that not right a2 was yes and i knew it as a2 yes no to product but you didn't know that by referring to it as an a2 product that was a reference to the

01:07:17 a2 product that was a reference to the european classification system no i didn't

01:07:23 when you started it iconic where you made aware that different fixing systems cassette and rivet had different european classifications

01:07:36 was i trained in the are you asking me what was i trained in this field would i was i told about these different classifications at the beginning of my employment the answer to that would have been no i can't recall ever being

01:07:47 can't recall ever being told about any any of this when i started

01:07:52 started when you started at iconic the classification for rayner bond p e rivet fix was a c and the classification for a raynabon pe cassette fix was an e were you made aware of

01:08:07 was an e were you made aware of those during your training no i wasn't no

01:08:11 no were you subsequently made aware of those classifications by anyone else at arconic no i wasn't no

01:08:24 by anyone else at arconic no i wasn't no prior to the grenfell tower fire were you aware

01:08:28 you aware that the rainer born p e rivet was a c and the

01:08:31 and the p e cassette was an e

01:08:36 i wasn't aware and i wasn't told i'm afraid no sorry

01:08:47 so just to be absolutely clear you say in your statement that the rhinobond pe fr and a2 panels you thought they were class naught

01:08:58 thought they were class naught but it's right is it that you weren't aware that those cores achieved very different fire performances under the european classification system that's correct yes

01:09:10 system that's correct yes you're never told that by anybody at next time is that your evidence i can't recall anybody and the technical team

01:09:18 team ever discussing uh this with me no and is it right that those different cores were priced differently

01:09:29 cores were priced differently they were yes and based on your understanding were they priced differently because they behaved differently and fire why were they priced differently

01:09:42 fire why were they priced differently my understanding was that the the standard core that would we would had was a standard core with a a certain amount of plastic in it and the fr core was a fire retardant

01:09:53 and the fr core was a fire retardant core that was a new product that had been sort of manufactured and the manufacturing process was more costly so

01:10:00 costly so the cost of that product would be slightly more expensive and when you say slightly more expensive in your time as sales representative what was the price differential

01:10:11 what was the price differential on average between the pr and the fr chord rayna bond so the p the pe or the efi did you say it yeah

01:10:22 the pe or the efi did you say it yeah what was the price differential between the two

01:10:25 the two yeah i would say that uh there was a good two pounds uh different square meter between the two

01:10:33 two the pe and fr excuse me yeah looking again at your witness statement if we can look now at page 15 paragraph 45

01:10:53 and here it's at the very bottom of that page you say this i do not remember ever knowingly recommending rayna bond pe as suitable for use above 18 meters

01:11:04 as suitable for use above 18 meters and i do not know if our conic ever obtained professional advice or guidance from an external body relating to the suitability of rayna bond pe for use above 18 meters in the uk

01:11:17 for use above 18 meters in the uk so that's the evidence you give there i just want to ask you some questions about that are you saying there that you didn't recommend rayna bond with a pe core for use above

01:11:29 rayna bond with a pe core for use above 18 meters because you knew it was unsuitable in that application that's correct if if i would never have recommended a pe over an 18-meter building

01:11:43 so your evidence is it that you would never have recommended pe for an over 18 meter building yes not knowingly recommended over an 18 meter building

01:11:54 meter building i if the if someone have come to me and asked me i've got this building it's over 18 meters vince would you recommend putting a pe core on the building the answer would have been no if the

01:12:09 a fabricator or a customer would have phoned into france and ordered the material for a project that i was unaware of uh in pe that was over 18 meters and i

01:12:22 uh in pe that was over 18 meters and i i didn't have an understat i didn't have any knowledge of that then that would have been a different thing because that often happened where uh i would be if you like played off

01:12:33 off with the internal staff and the me being an external guy in the uk they would phone up france and place an order for some material for a uh a project uh that i was unaware

01:12:47 for a uh a project uh that i was unaware of

01:12:48 of so if it was out of my control uh there was there wasn't a lot i could really do about that i see so so just going back to your answer where you said you would never

01:12:59 answer where you said you would never have recommended pe for a building that you knew was over 18 meters

01:13:04 meters was that right from the outset of your work as uk sales representative or did that was that a practice that came at a particular point in time that

01:13:15 came at a particular point in time that was a practice later on uh as i say later on in my career at the beginning of my um employment then i i probably wouldn't have known

01:13:27 then i i probably wouldn't have known the difference i know i wouldn't have known the difference and i wouldn't have recommended not recommended it over 18 meters because i didn't know the difference between the two really and

01:13:40 really and why did your practice change so that you wouldn't have recommended it for buildings

01:13:45 buildings that you knew were over 18 meters at a later stage why why did you change i think as i said before it would have been dictated to me in specifications and and also

01:13:56 in specifications and and also uh you know talking to architects and and fabricators and contractors they they weren't specifying projects over 18 meters with anything but

01:14:09 over 18 meters with anything but a fire retardant product or an a2 product

01:14:13 product so uh you know speaking to the likes of sotek one of my fabricators that's very clocked on within the industry uh would have made it quite clear that they wouldn't be ordering any materials from me

01:14:24 from me if it was pe and if it was over a certain

01:14:28 certain certain certain height it had to be the right specification so and just say we're absolutely clear that was something that was dictated to you by your customers downstream and not

01:14:42 by your customers downstream and not something that was said to you by anyone else iconic is that right

01:14:49 i can't recall having a conversation with anybody iconic about the over over 80 meters i would have explained to them in the uk that's what's happening uh you know

01:14:59 know the over 18 meter rule uh but i honestly if i'm wrong i can't recall anybody from technical explaining to me that we should be using materials over a certain height

01:15:11 materials over a certain height it was just something that i would have explained or they would have picked up along the line but nobody actually sat me down and spoke to me about this i already knew about it because that's

01:15:22 already knew about it because that's what was happening with specifications in the uk

01:15:27 mr chairman i think that might be an appropriate moment for the afternoon break that's okay yes that sounds sensible um mr meekins will have a short break at

01:15:38 um mr meekins will have a short break at this point we'll come back please at 25 to 4 and let me just remind you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it

01:15:49 evidence or anything to do with it during the break all right thank you sir thank you we'll see you at 25 to 4. thank you very much

01:33:38 welcome back everyone mr meekin are you there what's up yes sir here yeah you can see me and hear me that's good

01:33:46 good and you're ready to carry on i think so yes

01:33:49 yes yes all right yes mrs grange when you're ready then yes thank you i've just got some questions now about your understanding of the uk

01:33:57 of the uk marketplace um we heard evidence from deborah french that there was a widespread understanding within arconic that the uk was a pe

01:34:08 within arconic that the uk was a pe market now was that your understanding when you started working for arconic no it wasn't no my understanding was

01:34:21 no it wasn't no my understanding was remembering that when i started uh we had a big focus on fr as well as pe so uh

01:34:32 as well as pe so uh it was pretty much 50 50 i would say when i when i first started

01:34:38 and was that something that was communicated to you in your induction and training that the uk was a

01:34:45 uk was a 50-50 market as between p and fr no that was that was my findings in the marketplace the uk marketplace uh working with different fabricators uh

01:35:00 uh working with different fabricators uh so when i started uh my my um my program was to bring on more fabricators because we only ever worked when deborah was working with the

01:35:11 worked when deborah was working with the the with uh conic or ako at the time as you're aware with uh with a few fabricators handful uh i was looking at bringing five or six

01:35:22 uh i was looking at bringing five or six or maybe seven fabricators into the uk market so we could work with more fabricators and grow the market so the feedback from them was you know they were using fr as well as pe so it wasn't dominated

01:35:35 fr as well as pe so it wasn't dominated by

01:35:36 by pe when i'd started when i was speaking to more

01:35:40 to more customers i see mr french also told us that she would automatically specify pe called acm when supplying to her customers

01:35:50 customers in the uk that that was the default position

01:35:53 position was that your default position when you began working for iconic well i when i began working for arconic uh for the first six months because the

01:36:04 uh for the first six months because the area was vacant four or six months to me prior starting six to eight months customers would ring into france and place their orders via france the inter internal sales team so i

01:36:17 the inter internal sales team so i didn't have a lot of communication where it comes to uh orders

01:36:22 orders with uh customers until into sort of 2016 and then

01:36:31 i was finding that more and more people were using fr and pe so i wouldn't necessarily uh you know put forward yet the pe

01:36:43 uh you know put forward yet the pe because it that was a standard material that was classed as standard um that's the term we used if people were to order via the office and they didn't

01:36:54 they didn't specify that they needed a fire retardant material then they would order our standard material which you know as pe so i would

01:37:05 you know as pe so i would look at the specifications let's see what the building was if i was talking to architect and and then specify what i thought would be the correct material

01:37:15 material depending on what the building was so it was pretty much a 50 50 thing but we were focusing on more and more fr as as my employment went on

01:37:26 went on i see so if a client was silent on the type of core and just said i want rayna bond acm in let's say early 2016. i think what

01:37:37 in let's say early 2016. i think what you've just told us is that you would just assume they wanted a pe core yes

01:37:41 core yes no sorry make myself clear if i was face to face with the client and they were telling me about the project and they said we have this project

01:37:50 project vince we need to know we want a your standard

01:37:53 standard material on this project uh or they would say

01:37:56 would say we would like to order some acm from you and i'd seen the drawings for instance and i knew what the building was then i would uh look at them and and specify the

01:38:09 uh look at them and and specify the correct material i'm talking about 1617 here when i was talking to customers my knowledge was better of the product and i would specify the correct fr if need be or pe

01:38:23 the correct fr if need be or pe they wouldn't just order it they would ask me what they think which should go on the building and at that time uh as you're aware everything was steering towards the over 18 meter the the fr and it was

01:38:35 the over 18 meter the the fr and it was becoming more and more popular so i would recommend that they were to use this if they were to phone up and just order the material from france

01:38:47 and just order the material from france and it wouldn't go through me at all because that would that went on for a good

01:38:50 good six months to eight months well into my employment because that's what people were used to doing just phoning france and ordering material they would just order a

01:39:00 order a standard material or they would they would say they need some acm material and we would take the order from what i understand now would just be a standard p e material and they wouldn't

01:39:11 standard p e material and they wouldn't necessarily be any questions asked what the building was what type of building where it was going they would just be given the the the materials

01:39:21 materials via france is that clear sorry it makes so i'd have to be in front of the client before i would specify what needs to be specified

01:39:32 specified yes i understand that yeah that's very helpful

01:39:35 helpful just going back to the point you mentioned about if you were in front of the client and you had the details of the project and the type of building you said you would make sure you specified the correct

01:39:47 specified the correct product how would you make that assessment what was the correct and what was the incorrect product well then i would look at the drawings so we would sit down we would discuss

01:39:58 so we would sit down we would discuss the project what the project was what type of building the project was uh if this is if i'm with a specifier an architect

01:40:08 architect i would then advise them that we have two products uh which would have been the fr or the pe

01:40:15 pe and explain to them you know they need to be using this because it's over 18 meters for instance on a certain project or you know they can decide on what project they

01:40:26 they can decide on what project they what material they want to purchase um so yeah i would just steer them as best as i could in the right direction and then they would make their decision

01:40:37 and then they would make their decision um

01:40:39 um and that's how we can go i see um and and how did you know to advise them that it was over 18 meters they needed the fr product as we spoke before when that

01:40:53 product as we spoke before when that started to come into play the over 18 meter rule as we as we sort of keep mentioning it um it would be a fire retardant or an a2 product

01:41:03 product that generally would go at that level so you would just assume that they would want that product anyway because nine times out of ten a an architect

01:41:14 nine times out of ten a an architect would be talking to a fabricator or a main contractor and they would automatically know that that's the product that needed to be put onto that building so they would specify that product be it

01:41:25 so they would specify that product be it our material or a and a luca bond or a larson whatever

01:41:29 whatever competitor may have been on that specification they may have been talking to me about an alternative uh product which would be our rentable fr

01:41:39 fr and i would specify our equivalent to whatever was specified if i didn't specify that product myself sorry to go all around the houses but that's generally how it would work i see

01:41:51 that's generally how it would work i see and and

01:41:51 and and this 18 meter rule that you're talking about where did you understand that came from and

01:41:56 from and when did it come in the 18 meter will come in later in my appointment obviously early on i wouldn't have i wouldn't have known the difference as i said when i first started to work with iconic i didn't know anything

01:42:08 work with iconic i didn't know anything about the 18 meter rules i knew very little about the products but as it went on i guess it would have been in sort of 2016 latter part 2016 17 just as a a wild

01:42:22 17 just as a a wild rough guesstimate along them sort of round them sort of areas than though we would started to discuss uh different heights in buildings if i was asked i see so did you think

01:42:35 if i was asked i see so did you think there was some kind of new regulatory requirement that came in around 20. i understood that it always sort of been there uh yeah i understood that this is the

01:42:46 uh yeah i understood that this is the material that should be used at that that height so that's something that was i mentioned before that i was learning from fabricators and learning from the industry in a

01:42:57 and learning from the industry in a whole you know they were saying you need to use this material at this certain height vince this is what needs to be done and you need to specify this and it needs it it can't be this material

01:43:05 material i'd often get phone from an arc from a a fabricator and they would say for me to me for instance vince would love to use your material but unfortunately it has to be an a2

01:43:16 but unfortunately it has to be an a2 material uh it can't be fr or pe so we can't go with your material so i would lose projects because of that and you would just then walk away from it because you i knew i didn't have

01:43:28 it because you i knew i didn't have an a2 product to compete with the likes of a luca bond or i'm using a luca bomb as an example but there are other sort of manufacturers obviously evaded yeah

01:43:38 yeah i'm going to come to that in just a moment were you aware that there were other countries germany for example where the fr core was standard material i was aware yes i was only aware later

01:43:51 i was aware yes i was only aware later on in my employment after talking to my colleague uh thorsten uh he's a german uh uh sales manager uh and they never had they never used

01:44:02 uh and they never had they never used any uh

01:44:03 any uh pe materials uh it was only the fr material

01:44:06 material um that was early on in the employment as well i found that that's the case in that country that typical them sort of countries they were using the fr

01:44:17 were using the fr and weren't really didn't know anything about the pe

01:44:22 did that ever prompt a conversation between you and anybody at merck time to say well why are in these other countries are they only using fr why is p even available for sale at

01:44:34 fr why is p even available for sale at all

01:44:35 all in the uk if i'm absolutely honest i i no it didn't and looking back on it in hindsight i maybe i could have said something and said well why are we using

01:44:46 said well why are we using the pe i i assumed uh that we would it was an old material that we'd been using for many many years before i'd started

01:44:55 started and we were getting rid of this material and dwindling it out and focusing more on the fire retardant fr

01:45:01 fr material uh to keep up with the european market

01:45:05 market but i didn't honestly think for an instant to sort of say well guys you know

01:45:11 know why are we using this yeah this french told us that the uk as well as she said being predominantly a pe market she said it was also predominantly a cassette

01:45:22 predominantly a cassette market as opposed to a rivet market was that your experience as well i think yeah a lot of people that were designing uh on the architectural market would would

01:45:33 on the architectural market would would go

01:45:34 go for a cassette panel over a fixed face fix panel however because i i was doing as i mentioned before the corporate identification and the architectural market uh and i in the

01:45:47 the architectural market uh and i in the end

01:45:47 end uh by 2017 if you see the figures all you see what i was doing i was focusing an awful lot more on the cid market so that would have been a mixture of face fix and cassette

01:45:58 face fix and cassette but mainly face fix so mine was slightly different because i wasn't just in the architectural market i was in the corporate identification market and the uh the architectural market so

01:46:10 uh the architectural market so it was pretty much i i guess 50 50 towards the end with me but on the architectural market for sure it was mainly cassette panel yeah yeah now you've talked about your

01:46:22 yeah yeah now you've talked about your um

01:46:22 um competitors and is it fair to say that you were keeping a very close eye on what your competitors were doing during the time you were uk or sales manager

01:46:32 manager uh on on certain competitors um

01:46:37 you you would you would see specifications coming up with their name you know to say that they're that they're a lucha bond or their larsen or their whoever they may be so

01:46:49 whoever they may be so i wouldn't say a close eye but i was aware of their products and aware of the projects that maybe they were getting involved in yeah mr french has given us a list of our conics competitors in the uk

01:47:01 conics competitors in the uk do you agree with this list that it was a luca bond manufactured by 3a yes yes the luca bond was the leading yeah

01:47:11 yeah al pollock produced by mitsubishi chemicals

01:47:14 chemicals yes they would have been yeah a competitor and then aloe coil produced by larson i think you've just mentioned them is that right yes yes were they were they the the main uk competitors

01:47:25 uk competitors uh that they were and then we started sort of they there was a stack bond i think was being introduced uh later on down the line uh which were

01:47:36 uh later on down the line uh which were a very uh seem to manufacture very cheaply

01:47:39 cheaply uh and they they broke into the uk market but know that i agree they were the uh the main competitors in the uk yeah was it part of your role to report

01:47:50 to report back uh to merck time about what your competitors were doing in the uk market was that part of the dialogue you had with them i think um the the the sales team

01:48:02 i think um the the the sales team uh in the in mexico and the technical team

01:48:05 team were always very interested in what the competitors were doing so any information uh that i gathered on my travels around fabricators i would

01:48:16 on my travels around fabricators i would sort of collect and then disperse back to france be it via an email or send literature to them so they're aware of what the competitor may be up to or what our

01:48:27 may be up to or what our fabricators may be maybe doing and were you keeping an eye on what fire performance other competitor products had

01:48:38 i i can say that um i know that uh i lost an awful lot of projects with um

01:48:45 with um with iconic or renabond due to not having

01:48:49 having an a2 rated fire product so uh we were losing an awful lot of business in the uk market due to not having this material

01:49:00 due to not having this material so we're losing large projects as you can imagine these are the high-rise buildings

01:49:05 buildings and buildings that this material was being used on so there was quite a few square meters of project that would be we were losing in the uk because we just didn't have the the material and did you communicate

01:49:18 the material and did you communicate that

01:49:19 that back to mexico absolutely yeah it was good every every six months or a year he sells me and every

01:49:26 and every weekly report there would have been something about an a2 product uh that we haven't got that we are we're losing

01:49:36 were you aware that certainly by 2013 a luca bond standard material was a luca bond plus which had an fr mineral core achieving european

01:49:48 mineral core achieving european classification b s 1 d 0. were you aware of that i am certainly aware that luca bond had a standard material of fr when i started with the company uh i

01:50:02 when i started with the company uh i as early as that i knew that luca bond was a standard fr material but i was also told that they were still producing a polyethylene material as well for

01:50:14 polyethylene material as well for certain applications i don't know what their applications would have been for but their standard material

01:50:19 material as i was aware of would have been an fr material

01:50:24 material when you said to maxheim look guys we're losing work here because we haven't got an a2

01:50:29 an a2 product we really need that what was the response that you got back the response was we're working on an a2

01:50:38 an a2 product um and we're hopefully we'll be able to

01:50:42 able to bring it into the market at some stage but it's very costly and you know they were trying to develop an a2 product and that went on for quite a while

01:50:53 and that went on for quite a while actually it was it was a few years i should say 18 months two years before uh

01:50:59 uh anything actually become of it and then and then it didn't really it didn't break out into the uk market but that's another thing right um

01:51:12 thing right um just information sharing for a moment between

01:51:15 between you and merc time you've talked about your weekly reports already um can we just have a look at one of these

01:51:23 these um if we go met three zeros 53183 at page 300. this is within one of your

01:51:32 exhibits

01:51:41 so here what we can see is an email this is dated the 14th of june 2017. from you to veronica de fontaine who was your line manager at

01:51:52 de fontaine who was your line manager at this point yes yes she was yes yeah and you said please see my report attached and if we look at page 301 in the next page on this exhibit

01:52:05 here we can see from the top please find as follows my weekly report for your review

01:52:11 review and you begin with the grenfell tower disaster in this particular report now i don't want to ask you about the detail of this report but i want to understand how in practice

01:52:22 but i want to understand how in practice this worked is it right that you were required to write these weekly reports to merck time throughout your time as uk sales manager uh yes uh i guess

01:52:35 uh yes uh i guess when i start when um uh leonardo macony uh became the sales manager we started reporting to him

01:52:43 him on a weekly basis of things that were happening within the uk uh you see the different topics on that report

01:52:50 report and it was a standard thing it wasn't very in-depth but it just gave them an idea

01:52:55 idea of what was happening and what information would those reports usually contain

01:53:06 uh so you have to bear with me i'm trying to go back to do we have a well the report would be uh what uh for instance my fabricators uh

01:53:17 for instance my fabricators uh are are doing what projects they have coming up

01:53:20 coming up um i don't think there was necessarily any

01:53:24 any serious figures on there you know when it comes to um you know square meters figures i think the projects were probably on there saying this project's due to to come in to july

01:53:36 this project's due to to come in to july um and also you know what projects we've lost you know what projects we we can't hold on to because we don't have the right uh materials do you ever remember writing in one of

01:53:47 do you ever remember writing in one of these weekly reports um we've lost this project because we don't have an a2 product do you remember writing that i do remember yeah on several occasions you've probably got the reports uh to

01:53:58 you've probably got the reports uh to hand hopefully

01:54:01 yeah i don't i don't think i've got them as part of this plan at the moment but i'll be i'll be corrected if we do have uh them i think we've got other reports but i'm not sure we've seen that and and what was your understanding of

01:54:13 and and what was your understanding of what the purpose was of you sending back these reports to max heim i think it was just to give them the you know enlighten them that you know what's happening in there you remember

01:54:25 what's happening in there you remember on the ears ears and eyes for the middle man if you like for france uh i'm here uh and you know i just give them an insight into why we're losing the projects and

01:54:37 into why we're losing the projects and perhaps what what we need to win projects and and what obviously the a2 would have been a massive benefit to us

01:54:45 to us uh for for larger projects you know to go forward and win some some good projects we lost an awful lot as i said due to not having this prod this product so it's something i would

01:54:57 this product so it's something i would have put in the report quite regularly and

01:54:59 and you know where are we with the o2 are we progressing with it are we going to go any further with it

01:55:06 and then we would we wouldn't really necessarily get any any sort of information back you know it'd be one-sided whereas you would sort of

01:55:15 of perhaps send a report uh emphasizing what we need or or where we are

01:55:23 are and then that would be put together and then perhaps on a half-yearly sales meter a yearly sales meet something may sort of be mentioned but uh i see that

01:55:35 uh i see that sorry sorry that was my next question whether was this part of a two-way dialogue on a weekly basis with merck time

01:55:43 time but i think what you've just told told us is effectively you would be submitting these reports on a weekly basis

01:55:49 basis you wouldn't necessarily get any response but you would expect some sort of response at the half yearly sales meetings is that right yes um it would be you would have

01:56:01 yes um it would be you would have the progress on where we are with certain projects uh you know or where we are with certain materials and development of materials and

01:56:09 and moving forward with certain things that they've been working on but there wouldn't be any necessarily any reply to that actual report on a weekly basis you wouldn't get any

01:56:19 get any returned yeah and were claude verla's team

01:56:22 team always there as part of those half yearly sales meetings

01:56:30 they attended the meeting uh usually uh on a yearly media team they would attend for a session of uh an hour or so uh remembering these are two day sales

01:56:41 remembering these are two day sales meets so they he would be president at the sales meet the um

01:56:45 the um claude valley on most of the sales meetings and he would present probably for an hour or two uh throughout the two you know at some stage about the two days with uh with with maybe colleagues uh

01:56:57 with uh with with maybe colleagues uh presenting certain things to the team now and again right did did you ever have um more frequent dialogue with claude vela and his team

01:57:09 dialogue with claude vela and his team and if so

01:57:10 and if so how as in would i speak to them on a regular basis you mean yes um i i guess claude uh i would email quite regularly throughout

01:57:21 i would email quite regularly throughout the week with issues if i needed to asking him to get back to me um with queries from customers uh obviously very busy man and he may

01:57:32 uh obviously very busy man and he may not have got back to me immediately because he has other clients that he was dealing with but uh yeah i would be emailing him for comments

01:57:41 comments or you know i need him to look at this photograph and give me some response on what he thinks it may be he was used quite a bit i think for me on a technical side because that's what i was told to do at

01:57:53 because that's what i was told to do at the early stages my employment that's what they're there for yeah we also heard evidence from um deborah french about her inputting information into something called a crm

01:58:05 information into something called a crm a customer relationship management database

01:58:08 database yes and um is it right that that then changed in 2018 to be known as something called a sales force database is that right

01:58:17 right that's correct yes yeah and um you mention this crm system in your statement i don't think we need to turn it up it's at paragraph 40 page

01:58:28 to turn it up it's at paragraph 40 page 13

01:58:29 13 you say there that the system allows you to store customer details and the details of particular projects for which the company's been asked to quote is that correct that's correct remembering that the

01:58:41 that's correct remembering that the internal staff as well can use that crm and did input most of the projects onto the crm

01:58:47 the crm the only projects that i would have put on would have been the ones that i physically had um you know if i'd seen a client i'd got that project i would then uh download it or put it onto the crm

01:58:59 download it or put it onto the crm even though my name would come up by the by the crm it would generally be it could have been generated by anybody at merck sign so as i mentioned before we don't always know what that project is

01:59:11 know what that project is so if there's a new project on there and there's the correct information on the crm

01:59:17 crm because a lot of the time there wasn't it wasn't given the correct information you would do your research and try and find out what this pro this project was that was on there so you could take it further and go and

01:59:28 so you could take it further and go and see the client and have a chat so yes sorry to go around the circles yeah so did you use it regularly to update the system when there were potential developments about sales

01:59:41 developments about sales the project it should have been used on a daily basis uh we were told it should it

01:59:45 it should be updated on a daily basis but it was probably realistically updated by myself once every three or four days maybe once every week that was like most of my colleagues we did a similar thing

01:59:57 of my colleagues we did a similar thing um but it was looked at surely and uh and if

02:00:01 and if there was neat if it needed to be updated it would be updated yeah and i think you've already mentioned it's right is that you were supported by the inside sales team at merc's heim

02:00:13 yeah uh was that normally gwen ale derren denger that was gwen yes yes uh initially and then it changed to uh anna and a client

02:00:24 anna and a client yeah and sometimes marry claude jordan as well yes mary would be sometimes there as well yeah and is it right that from time to time people from merkstein would come over to visit the uk uh they would come over

02:00:38 to visit the uk uh they would come over on a technical basis uh claude or renny uh sorry uh nicola remy whenever they needed to um

02:00:49 whenever they needed to um a lot of the time a photograph would be taken and sent back to france for them to do some sort of assessment on what i thought the project or the issue might be and they would give me their their advice if you like

02:01:00 give me their their advice if you like on what the issue might be with the delimination or whatever it may be uh but uh yeah they came over but not very often right yes i think we're going to come later to a couple of specific visits i

02:01:12 later to a couple of specific visits i want to ask you about um but that was one of my questions were these routine visits or were they always in relation to some specific problem or issue that had arisen that

02:01:23 problem or issue that had arisen that they needed to attend for no the uh we would have uh the our sales manager

02:01:28 manager uh uh leonel mcconney uh would visit now and again to see go around uh customers just to introduce himself again and and sort of keep things fresh

02:01:40 keep things fresh uh and explain that we are here what new developments we've got what things we're working on where we are within the industry um so yeah now and again every i guess

02:01:53 so yeah now and again every i guess three or four months uh i might he may come over to the uk to for a day or two just to have a look around the customers with me but that would be about it that would be about it really i see

02:02:04 about it really i see yeah was it your understanding that people at management level at merck time were kept well informed of potential and ongoing projects in the uk

02:02:16 uk but with my my my projects uh i liked i tried to keep them up to date as much as possible and give them as much information on projects that were coming up uh in the uk uh as i said i

02:02:29 coming up uh in the uk uh as i said i i the the uh there's a weekly reporting system so they were updated every week uh and anything that i i found that may be relevant or may have some information for them would

02:02:41 may have some information for them would be forwarded on to to france yeah i want to ask you now about something that's been referred to as the toolbox

02:02:49 toolbox and i want to start by looking at claude burles witness statement this is met three zeros 53190 at page 34.

02:03:02 and i want to look at paragraph 116

02:03:13 so i'm just going to read the first half of that of this paragraph with you he says that many people within arconic would be aware of the results of fire tests

02:03:23 tests and or certifications for our conic products

02:03:26 products including raynabon pe those who work within the sales teams would all have access to an internal database referred to as the toolbox this contains

02:03:38 referred to as the toolbox this contains technical information in respect of our conics products including reaction to fire classifications for relevant jurisdictions when a new or updated classification

02:03:49 when a new or updated classification report

02:03:49 report or certification is obtained by myself or others within my team it would be added to the toolbox by that team and sometimes an email

02:04:00 by that team and sometimes an email would be sent to the sales and marketing department email distribution list referred to as raf list in turn and raf list extern confirming that changes had been

02:04:13 extern confirming that changes had been made to the toolbox or that new classification reports had been obtained now just pausing there

02:04:25 now just pausing there um were you aware of something called the toolbox from the outlet of your involvement yes the toolbox was introduced later later in my employment much later

02:04:36 later in my employment much later i don't know if you have a date there to when it was actually introduced but it was a very relatively new thing to uh

02:04:44 to uh to iconic uh it was something that they they'd put together with the in the technical team and introduced to us much later on in

02:04:55 and introduced to us much later on in in my employment where you could go online and have a look at the updates uh i think i used it a few times but it was also

02:05:02 was also for customers to use i'm not sure if you're aware of that they uh they could go into the toolbox and and look to see uh you know what what

02:05:14 and look to see uh you know what what updates have been made in there or any sort of uh literature that might be handy to them they were they had access to that so i was aware of it but it was a

02:05:25 i was aware of it but it was a relatively new tool to us give us some help about the time frame when this was introduced you've said much later in your employment can you help us as to

02:05:36 your employment can you help us as to what year this was introduced um just bear with me i'm trying to think when it would have been you it would have been some time uh and i i can't quite give you an exact date uh

02:05:48 date uh but i would i would be guessing i mean i'm sure you can find out i'm sure they will tell you at work so i'm not 100 sure but i would say it was in the last

02:06:01 but i would say it was in the last last a year before maybe or six months before the disaster grenfell fire so it was relatively new

02:06:12 so is it right that this was not something that was in operation when you began your role as uk sales manager

02:06:20 manager but in the year before the grenfell fire it was introduced during your time as uk sales manager is that correct i understand they had something similar

02:06:31 i understand they had something similar to it many years ago called a toolbox of some type but this was a completely different and new uh thing that they'd done online so yes it wasn't there for me when i

02:06:45 so yes it wasn't there for me when i started with the company

02:06:50 and you said that you'd used it just a few times

02:06:53 few times what had you used it for once it was introduced i think curiosity i looked at the documentation that was in there and some of the literature uh when it first began but it really was

02:07:06 uh when it first began but it really was it was not relevant to uh to me as such at the beginning um i i'm not sure if they carried on with it i don't i don't know if it carried on but i knew it was a uh as i said it was relatively

02:07:19 it was a uh as i said it was relatively new so

02:07:20 new so i think it was a customer needed some literature of some type and i explained that it's in the toolbox if you go in there you can find it because we had problems with sometimes getting back to customers

02:07:32 with sometimes getting back to customers quickly in fact that was one of our weaknesses at uh iconic that our turnaround between dealing with a customer when they needed a sample

02:07:43 a sample or some literature did take quite a while

02:07:46 while so we could lose business over this uh and so

02:07:50 and so we i think this is one of the reasons why we introduced this or the technical team introduced this toolbox so it was it had access they had access to that

02:07:59 to that system quite quickly from what i understand prior to that toolbox being introduced how

02:08:06 how were you kept appraised of changes in relevant uh technical classifications certifications

02:08:17 i i

02:08:20 i can't i can't ever remember being uh

02:08:26 notified about any changes within the toolbox i don't know if there was an email that you had to go online to see but there was nothing that was sent to me personally or on the or on some sort of uh email

02:08:38 on the or on some sort of uh email saying that we've updated this in the toolbox i think it was up to the individual to log on and just have a look um although reading what you'd said prior to us talking

02:08:50 to us talking there wasn't an alert or something that that they'd sent out i don't know if i read that wrong maybe but yeah

02:08:57 but yeah i don't remember you sorry just thinking back to the time though prior to the toolbox being introduced um how would you

02:09:04 you be kept up to date with any changes in relevant technical information relevant to the products you were selling that would be done more or less on a on

02:09:17 that would be done more or less on a on a six-month yearly basis i mean there wouldn't be any immediate updates given to you uh you wouldn't get an email or an alert immediately uh if if there was a change

02:09:29 immediately uh if if there was a change within

02:09:30 within um a document or or something

02:09:38 i can't recall ever getting a personal email saying this is a document this has been changed you need to look at this uh you know this is this is important uh it would have been something that would have been discussed at a a

02:09:49 would have been discussed at a a quarterly meeting uh because in the towards the end of my employment i said it's at the end of after the fire we were having quarterly meetings

02:09:58 meetings uh so we were there every quarter so it'd be interesting it would introduce new things um and tell you new things but there was nothing

02:10:06 nothing personally sent and was your understanding that the reason the toolbox was introduced because of this problem with delay and getting technical information to

02:10:18 getting technical information to customers

02:10:18 customers is that the reason why it was introduced that was my my take on it because we had so much problems with getting back to customers as quickly

02:10:29 as quickly and as efficiently as what we should have been doing so this this toolbox was not only for the internal

02:10:36 internal staff the sales external staff and the customer

02:10:39 customer so they could uh get some uh drawings wind up lift drawings or whatever they might need on there as quickly as they possibly can and they could they could download it that was my

02:10:51 could they could download it that was my take on it yes and once it was introduced did you ever explore within it the documents relevant to the uk fire testing regime

02:11:02 fire testing regime no i'm sorry i didn't no i didn't look to see there was any change i no

02:11:10 i no so mr verlo you've touched on this already but mr verla says that generally an email would be sent to members of the sales team when there was a new certificate or document to be aware of

02:11:21 document to be aware of but i think what you've said is that wasn't your experience is that right i'm absolutely completely honest i can never remember any document being sent to me via an email saying this document

02:11:33 to me via an email saying this document has now changed uh in the uk but you know i there may have been an instance that something was sent and i generally just cannot remember that being sent to me but i i think if

02:11:45 that being sent to me but i i think if it was done on a regular basis uh then i certainly would have remembered uh emails that were coming through with changes uh on fire regulations and things but i can't recall ever seeing it

02:11:57 can't recall ever seeing it yeah we saw just now in in claude vella's statement reference to email distribution lists we saw this raf list in turn and list extern and i just want to show you as well

02:12:09 to show you as well something in mr schmidt's witness statement um about this if we can look at that this is at m e t three zeros five three one eight seven at page 15

02:12:21 at page 15 paragraph 48

02:12:29 so this is the second witness statement of claude schmidt and i just want to look at what he says at paragraph 48 he says this in relation to awareness

02:12:41 he says this in relation to awareness within our conic of the results of fire performance testing and certification a number of people within our conic would have been aware including the sales team and the technical sales support team

02:12:52 support team members of the sales team would be aware of results as they are made available to them

02:12:57 them through an online system referred to as the

02:13:01 the toolbox so we've talked about that he says claude verla and the technical sales support team would upload to the toolbox a new or updated classification report or certification and would notify

02:13:13 report or certification and would notify the sales team via email of any such changes

02:13:17 changes such emails were sent to two mail distribution lists raf list commercial ex intern which includes all members of the sales and marketing department that are based in merksheim

02:13:28 in merksheim including those working in internal sales outside sales and technical support

02:13:34 support and raf list commercial alex stern which includes all members of the sales and marketing departments that are based outside of mexico and either employed by arconic or are its

02:13:45 arconic or are its agents including for example deborah french

02:13:49 french and vince mekins do you see that there now i we we've talked about the toolbox i now want to ask you about these um email distribution lists

02:14:02 um email distribution lists um is it right that you would receive emails from on the raf list commercial extern on that group email list

02:14:15 i can't recall uh having an email on this

02:14:20 this this email that you you mentioned i just don't understand how debra french would be uh sent that email because she no longer worked for the company so

02:14:32 company so sorry just to interrupt you i think there he's just saying for example while she was working for us deborah french would have had okay

02:14:42 are you ever aware of receiving emails from raf

02:14:46 from raf list commercial extern i i can't honestly remember ever getting an

02:14:52 an email from uh the the this this uh is this an email address that we're talking about here or is it as yes it's said to be a group email

02:15:06 as yes it's said to be a group email address i'm going to show you an example in just a moment so that might might help right um but what we're interested in in asking you is whether you ever remember receiving any emails via that group list

02:15:18 receiving any emails via that group list about the testing and certification of raina born

02:15:27 receiving an email i hope i'm not wrong but i can't remember ever seeing one okay let's look at that example if we go to met three zeroes

02:15:38 to met three zeroes four sevens one met three zeros quadruple seven one at page ten

02:16:07 the operator got that met three zeros then seven seven seven seven one page ten

02:16:21 so if we look right at the top of this page

02:16:25 page mr meekins we can see this is an email from

02:16:30 from nicolas remy it's dated the 23rd of september 2015. it's sent then and it's two it's to this address at the top raf list commercial

02:16:43 address at the top raf list commercial intern

02:16:45 intern and list commercial extern you can see those

02:16:48 those so they're these email distribution or mailing lists i'm sorry i think we've got this this slightly uh mixed where there were when i can

02:17:00 mixed where there were when i can understand there were two toolbox there was a an old tool box that was used

02:17:05 was used many years ago and then that wasn't used for quite a few years from

02:17:13 from uh into my employment and they reintroduced a toolbox uh in about i would guess uh 2017 as i said

02:17:25 i would guess uh 2017 as i said 18 something like that and i remember it being launched as the toolbox this is just before my time or just after my time i should say um and this wasn't a toolbox that i was familiar with at all

02:17:39 there are two this seems to be some form of email

02:17:43 of email distribution list um so this is from september 2015 and mr schmidt

02:17:51 schmidt as we've just seen in his evidence said that you would have been on that distribution list um two months into my employment or three months into my employment i get something like that

02:18:02 something like that uh the one that i was talking about is the the one they introduced much later on it was called it was a new toolbox

02:18:10 toolbox i didn't know they previously had a toolbox so i've never even seen this one

02:18:16 i see quite confusing yeah but just focusing on this this email and this format of email do you ever remember receiving an email

02:18:27 do you ever remember receiving an email that come to you via a generic list at arconic no i don't i can't remember that at all remembering it was just not long after

02:18:38 remembering it was just not long after my employment so i just don't remember that we start in the may

02:18:44 the may and this is four months in in september yeah

02:18:48 yeah i'm saying yeah um if we read the email what it we can see what it says we've got some english translation and and the french but we can see under uh the beginning of the email in the

02:19:00 uh the beginning of the email in the first paragraph it says following the modification of our core recipe transluceed to black for rayna bond architecture pe please find below the updated links to the fire

02:19:13 find below the updated links to the fire classification reports and then in in bold and underlined it said the ratings stay the same please avoid duplicating files exclamation mark

02:19:24 exclamation mark um and then what we can see a little bit further on is we've got the pe riveted system and we can see that it's getting a rate or class more of c

02:19:38 it's getting a rate or class more of c and then s2d zero but we see that it's got a c

02:19:42 got a c and then the raynabon 55pe cassette system we can see is getting a class e do you see that there

02:19:52 there i could see that yes yes so is it your evidence that not not only do you not recall receiving emails like this but you also

02:20:03 receiving emails like this but you also can't recall receiving this specific email yeah there's

02:20:08 there's there's a few things first of all i don't remember ever seeing this i really can't remember it secondly um definitely not this version and and i

02:20:19 definitely not this version and and i just can't i wouldn't have understood it at that stage of my employment if it had to come through because i just wouldn't have understood the difference or the

02:20:30 understood the difference or the terminology i see so even if you had got this it this wouldn't have meant anything to you it wouldn't i would have understood the f as we mentioned before

02:20:41 f as we mentioned before if i had studied it in the e but i was i just literally started to see customers at that stage i was not really aware of the the products they were very new to me

02:20:53 were very new to me so to have a document sent like this to me and not not being explained if you understand what i mean what it actually means then it would have it would have been um

02:21:05 then it would have it would have been um yeah

02:21:07 yeah i wouldn't i would have understood it to be honest yeah would you have understood what was being referred to in that first paragraph about there being a modification of the core recipe

02:21:18 core recipe from translucent to black did you know about that i wouldn't have understood that at the time but we did change the colors of the the uh the panels uh throughout

02:21:29 of the the uh the panels uh throughout my employment from black to translucent uh you know later on as well so this i would have i understood that later on

02:21:39 later on uh the the the core had been changed from

02:21:42 from uh black to a uh a translucent um but that would have been some years on

02:21:49 on but at this time i would not probably i wouldn't have understood why

02:21:56 or

02:21:59 yeah i wouldn't have really understood it i'm sorry okay i understand um just moving on now to ask you about sales

02:22:07 sales meetings we've talked about the twice yearly sales meetings can we just have a look at claude verla's witness statement at this point m e t four zeros five three one nine zero

02:22:19 four zeros five three one nine zero and i want to look at page 36 paragraph one two five excuse me

02:22:32 so i just want to read some of this paragraph with you um he says the sales teams also receive information from my team as part of

02:22:43 information from my team as part of their sales team meetings that usually occur twice a year i or one of my colleagues would usually provide an

02:22:50 an update often taking the form of the provision of statistics such as the amount of requests the team has addressed

02:22:57 addressed a general update on technical points known in the marketplace and a discussion of a specific technical subject which could relate to fire or any other technical matter such as wind

02:23:08 any other technical matter such as wind loading

02:23:09 loading mechanical behavior or any claims that have been raised in relation to product matters now just pausing there um i think you've already confirmed that you do recall those twice yearly sales

02:23:21 you do recall those twice yearly sales meetings yes yes i do yeah yeah and would you sorry and would you always attend those sales meetings

02:23:30 meetings i i didn't miss very many i think i most of the sales meetings i would have attended

02:23:36 attended uh yet so yes most of them would have been attended and were they held in mexico in france yes they were they're all uh in merck sign usually a two-day

02:23:49 sign usually a two-day sort of thing and then he goes on and he says um examples of such presentations where fire classification information was provided include the february 2014 presentation

02:24:02 include the february 2014 presentation and he goes on and talks about that and that's before your involvement um but he says this includes the february 14 presentation fire test norms and classification

02:24:13 fire test norms and classification criteria

02:24:14 criteria which confirmed that the pe class b was no longer valid and that pe was now class

02:24:19 class e as well as providing information relating to types of fire testing and certification in different and then he says this and the july 2015

02:24:30 and then he says this and the july 2015 technical quiz which was prepared by presented by philippe vonthron this presentation suggests that i manage product system certifications while phillipe manages fire

02:24:42 while phillipe manages fire certifications and then he says in reality i manage certification processes and fleet manages the maintenance and distribution of fire certificates now that july 15 technical quiz

02:24:56 now that july 15 technical quiz presented by philippe vonthron would have been during your tenure as uk sales manager do you remember

02:25:05 remember participating in that technical quiz i can't re i can't remember participated in the technical quiz

02:25:16 in the technical quiz um but something's telling me that i was i was invited to that sales meet and i was quite new so i was a little apprehensive uh

02:25:27 so i was a little apprehensive uh because i just started a few weeks prior to that so it would have been may june yeah about four or five whatever it was weeks uh i may have gone to the sales mate but

02:25:38 may have gone to the sales mate but i'm really sorry i can't be certain that i was at the salesman i don't remember taking part in any technical quiz that's for sure okay well i want to take you to that

02:25:50 okay well i want to take you to that technical quiz but mr chairman that would take us um over 4 30 and therefore i think it may be an appropriate moment um for a break well i was going to ask

02:26:01 um for a break well i was going to ask you whether it would make better sense to do that later on you obviously think it would um do that in one go yeah of course mr meekins i don't know whether anyone's

02:26:13 mr meekins i don't know whether anyone's warned you that we might need to ask you to come back so to speak on monday

02:26:19 monday yes i have sir yeah yes um i'm sorry i'm sure that's inconvenient for you but um i think we're going to have to ask you to do that that's fine sir absolutely fine all right well that's good of you thank you

02:26:30 right well that's good of you thank you very much so we'll we'll break now we'll resume at 10 o'clock on monday morning and i know there are quite a few days between now and monday but

02:26:42 between now and monday but i have to remind you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it over the weekend of course

02:26:49 of course absolutely right yeah okay well thank you very much we'll look forward to seeing you on monday thank you sir thank you very much ten o'clock on monday then please thank you sir

02:27:58 you