Deborah French, Arconic's UK sales representative, gives evidence about her knowledge of fire classifications for Reynobond PE panels. She admits to selling PE cassettes to Grenfell without understanding fire performance differences between PE and FR cores, or between cassette and rivet fixings.
00:00:03 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing uh as before i'm here with my fellow panel members miss
00:00:10 miss syria istafan and mr ali akbar good morning everyone good morning everyone
00:00:20 can i begin by reminding those of you who are not active participants in the proceedings to keep your cameras and microphones switched off at all times unless for some reason you need to
00:00:33 unless for some reason you need to intervene
00:00:34 intervene today we're going to continue hearing from
00:00:37 from miss french so i'm going to go straight away to miss french to check that she can
00:00:42 can see and hear us all clearly mrs french are you there yes good morning good morning um and you can hear me and see me i hope clearly yes i can thank you sir
00:00:53 thank you sir good thank you very much well i think i better just go through the usual housekeeping arrangements can you confirm that today as before
00:01:01 as before you're alone in the room from which you're giving evidence yes i am thank you can you confirm that you have no documents or other materials with you no i don't good and can you confirm that
00:01:13 no i don't good and can you confirm that your
00:01:13 your mobile phone is in another room and there's no other electronic device with you which is capable of receiving messages
00:01:20 messages no nothing at all thank you very much um well as you know your legal representatives are in the virtual hearing room in case they need to
00:01:30 need to uh take any steps to safeguard your interests
00:01:33 interests uh if there are problems uh from your point of view please just attract my attention but we've been through all that and you you've become quite familiar with how the system works i hope we'll have a
00:01:44 the system works i hope we'll have a trouble free morning
00:01:52 i've already reminded you about the importance of not talking to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room uh that goes at all times of course if i forget to remind you later on is
00:02:03 if i forget to remind you later on is there anything you'd like to raise before we start no thank you right very good well in that case i'll ask mr millett to uh uh put some more questions to you yes mr millet
00:02:14 mr millet good morning mr chairman thank you and good morning members of the panel and good morning miss french thank you very much for coming back to this uh i just want to pick up on one or two matters from yesterday very briefly
00:02:27 matters from yesterday very briefly you agreed i think yesterday that you knew that granifeld tower was a high-rise residential building can you confirm that that's right yes and you told us yesterday that you
00:02:40 yes and you told us yesterday that you knew uh that pe cassette was going to be used
00:02:45 used as the rain screen cladding material on granville tower yes yes looking at the information from from from the last few days yes
00:02:56 from from from the last few days yes and you told us and the reference is at page 168
00:02:59 page 168 at line 16 to 20 of the transcript that you didn't have sufficient knowledge about the differences between pe and fr or between rivet and cassette
00:03:09 cassette to be able to recommend or advise about the fire risks of any or all of those is that right yes why did you not
00:03:21 is that right yes why did you not yourself therefore seek internally any advice within our comic about whether p e in cassette form was appropriate for grenfell tower
00:03:33 was appropriate for grenfell tower i don't i don't know um i felt that it was
00:03:37 was something that other people within the project would be picking up on and asking any necessary questions for me to answer
00:03:45 answer or get information for them now you said yesterday at day 88 which was yesterday at page 171 at line six the following that you
00:03:57 six the following that you did not offer harley or cep a choice as between pe core or fr core did you ever actually tell either cep
00:04:08 did you ever actually tell either cep or harley in terms expressly that the reiner bond 55 for grenfell tower had
00:04:15 tower had a pe core i don't believe so no why is that again it just wasn't something that was ever discussed generally with any any customers in
00:04:26 generally with any any customers in terms of
00:04:27 terms of of the call now i want to turn back in the chronology please to march 2015. as our comics customer and just to
00:04:38 as our comics customer and just to remind you and everybody else you had left archonic by them then and gone to taylor maxwell yes yes um as arconic's potential customer
00:04:49 um as arconic's potential customer at our at taylor maxwell um you would sometimes have use for fire certifications wouldn't you yes we would be asked by by certain customers of our own
00:05:01 customers of our own toner maxwell's own for certain documents yes yes can we go to met3053173 please at page one three five this is your exhibit df5
00:05:15 this is your exhibit df5 at page one three five this is an email chain from early march 2015
00:05:23 2015 and at the bottom of that page is your email
00:05:28 you can see it there to grenade of the 3rd of march 2015 and you can see that it is a request by you
00:05:39 that it is a request by you you say could you please send over copies of the certificates certs for fr and p e rainer bond certs please thanks debs
00:05:50 please thanks debs what prompted you to ask for those documents
00:05:54 documents i don't recall unless it was a specific customer inquiry
00:06:02 the specific customer inquiry was that specific
00:06:05 specific customer inquiry the first time that you'd ever had in your experience up to that time such an inquiry from a customer
00:06:13 customer well as to say having no working in in the level that i'm now working at the we're much closer to installers and other people within the
00:06:24 installers and other people within the industry
00:06:26 industry was it the first time you yourself had ever been exposed to such a request i don't recall having them before that no
00:06:34 no right given that it was the first time you'd ever been exposed to such a request did it surprise you that such a request had never filtered down the chain of supply to you while you were working at our
00:06:45 to you while you were working at our comic and selling reynold rb55 i don't i don't believe i would have thought of it in that manner at the time it was as a sales working in a different environment um
00:06:56 environment um and and was probably just took it that that was
00:07:00 that was was the thing to expect
00:07:04 you took it that that was the thing to expect what at taylor maxwell or of end users uh well within the questions that would potentially be coming from uh customers
00:07:15 potentially be coming from uh customers intel
00:07:15 intel from container maxwell customers did did you not wonder why it was that requests such as these that we can see in this email which you were passing on down to our comic
00:07:26 comic had never come down to you at our comic during all your years there no i no i don't believe i i don't remember thinking along those lines no i had
00:07:37 lines no i had had a request and i was just satisfying the request yes i mean it's odd isn't it though you were dealing with with many customers as you've described them to be
00:07:48 them to be uh for many many years uh and you told us yesterday i think you never had a request of this nature about fire certificates from those with whom you were dealing
00:07:59 you were dealing but here you are um only a few weeks after joining taylor maxwell passing into arconic just that sort of request that did that not strike you as strange at the time no i don't believe so can we go there to
00:08:11 no i don't believe so can we go there to the top of the page
00:08:21 and here's your response on the 9th of march uh and uh sorry this is uh gwen is response to
00:08:32 uh sorry this is uh gwen is response to you on the 9th of march i'm sorry and she attaches three documents as you can see uh a test reports for cassette rivet cassette and rivet as you can see there
00:08:44 cassette and rivet as you can see there from the attachments and she says hello debbie sorry for answering you just now i replaced mary claude and i'm not as reactive as i would like on smiley face attached to certificates requested
00:08:55 requested you see that and and as i've just shown you she attached three certificates let's just uh look at those if we can um the first one is at met3053173
00:09:08 um the first one is at met3053173 at page 137
00:09:14 and you can see that that is a fire classification report
00:09:19 done under the european standard in respect of reyna bond fr if you look at commercial brand date of issue september 27 2012. when you received uh mr undone j's email
00:09:32 when you received uh mr undone j's email did you
00:09:33 did you open the attachment or i don't recall right did you open this attachment to look at this specifically i don't recall right let's look at the
00:09:44 i don't recall right let's look at the next one that she sent you the second of three uh that's met 30 so i'm so sorry can we look at i'm so sorry before we jump away from this can i take you to page 140
00:09:56 i take you to page 140 which is the classification itself and you can see that here is the fr classification b s one d naught uh let's then go to the next one she sent you which is
00:10:10 next one she sent you which is net3053173 at page 141
00:10:17 uh and this is uh the second of the fire classification report she sent you uh dated as you can see at the bottom of the page december the 4th 2014
00:10:29 december the 4th 2014 so not long before and this time the commercial brand is rainer bond 55 pe cassette system see that and if you go
00:10:38 go to page 143 in this report you'll see that the classification for cassette was e and if we go to the third
00:10:50 e and if we go to the third classification report that mr endangered sent you on the 9th of march 2015 that is at met
00:10:57 is at met 3053173 page 145
00:11:06 and again the date at the bottom is the 4th of december 2014 and this time the commercial brand is reynabon 55pe
00:11:17 reynabon 55pe riveted system and if you go to page 148 in this sort of in this fire classification report you can see that the classification is class c c s two
00:11:30 is class c c s two d naught now i've shown you all of those and the results for each of them fr cassette and rivet so fr and p e and cassette and pe and rivet um
00:11:43 and p e and cassette and pe and rivet um having shown you those are you sure you didn't open those certificates and read them when you received them from mr angelo i don't recall whether i would have opened them in that specific email or
00:11:55 opened them in that specific email or not no
00:11:58 do you remember what you did with those certificates we've seen that they were requested of you by an end customer did you send them on to the end customer whoever would have requested the
00:12:09 whoever would have requested the information i would have passed that back on to them yes would it have been your practice at the time to have checked what grinnell darren and jay had sent you before sending that on to your end
00:12:21 before sending that on to your end customer
00:12:23 customer i don't recall depends what the request would have been well you've seen the request
00:12:27 request or at least the terms in which you reported that request to granelda and jay in the email i showed you when you passed what you had asked from mr and jay back to your customer
00:12:39 from mr and jay back to your customer did you not check the documents that you were sending to them as i've said i don't recall whether i checked those as part of that email or not no my question was would it have been your
00:12:50 question was would it have been your practice at the time to have checked i don't recall you don't recall what your practice was no i don't recall whether i've whether i would have opened them or not i would have passed the information on to the
00:13:02 have passed the information on to the customer for them to so that they had got the information they requested yes i understand that you don't recall specifically whether you did or didn't my question is whether it was your practice at the time
00:13:13 practice at the time when asked for something like this from customers and asking it in turn as you do and getting it back you would have checked what you received
00:13:21 received you would have checked what you received before sending it to your customers was that your practice at the time i'd just generally look at stuff before it goes off but i would still just pass it over to the customer
00:13:32 still just pass it over to the customer for them
00:13:33 for them to have the information they requested if it was your practice at the time to open the documents and check them even if cursor really to make to make sure that
00:13:44 make to make sure that what you had asked for was what you were getting
00:13:47 getting did you not notice these classifications for each of these three types of product
00:13:56 again i i can't answer that question i if
00:13:59 if i would have passed the information on to the customer for them to decide what they needed to do with it
00:14:06 did you discover at this moment when you got these certificates from gwenelder and shay
00:14:12 and shay that indeed reynabon 55 in pe had a class c in rivet and class e in cassette i don't i don't recall what what my
00:14:25 i don't i don't recall what what my reaction was at the time right so do we take it from that that uh you had no reaction to it at the time i don't recall i i can't answer that i
00:14:37 i don't recall i i can't answer that i don't recall what my reaction was at the time
00:14:40 time right if if up to that moment you had not known
00:14:44 not known that reign of 155 pe in rivet had a c and in cassette had an e
00:14:52 e and if in accordance with your practice you would open these documents even if just to check that what you had asked for was what you were getting it would have come as something of a shock to you to discover wouldn't it
00:15:04 shock to you to discover wouldn't it that the these panels had these classifications uh yes it would have done
00:15:20 were you surprised that you weren't sent any information by mr anderse about
00:15:32 um again i don't recall what my thinking was but
00:15:36 was but again i i can't answer that i don't know you see your request of her was for certificates for fr and p.e reiner bond
00:15:48 certificates for fr and p.e reiner bond and she's only sent me the european ones were you surprised not to have received from her
00:15:53 from her any test data classification reports which showed that reyna bond p e and fr had class naught
00:16:05 looking back at it now yes it was surprising that a copy of the bba wasn't sent alongside it well never mind the bba you lost for certificates
00:16:16 certificates uh i suppose that might include the bba but were you were you surprised at the time
00:16:22 time not now but at the time that that mr energy
00:16:25 energy sent you nothing which showed that reynabon 55 fr or pe had achieved a class naught in accordance with national class as i say i don't recall what what i'd
00:16:38 as i say i don't recall what what i'd thought at the time i don't i don't recall the event
00:16:43 am i right in thinking that at taylor maxwell you were dealing with uk customers yes and therefore in the uk market yes uh and given what you told us yesterday
00:16:55 uh and given what you told us yesterday about your perceived irrelevance of the euro classifications and uh the only classification that mattered in that market being national class
00:17:03 class naught why didn't you go back to gwynell durand nj
00:17:08 durand nj and say well thank you very much for these euro classifications what i need uh please is the national classifications why didn't you do that i i don't know
00:17:20 sorry to continue sorry i don't know i don't know is it because in fact you had prior to this point come to understand that european classifications were just as relevant to your uk customers
00:17:33 as relevant to your uk customers as national class
00:17:37 again i don't recall i i think there was more prominence around the the european certificates but i don't recall them still being more important than the than the bba that was being
00:17:49 the than the bba that was being requested
00:17:50 requested you see you say you don't recall uh and i appreciate these matters to some six years ago now almost six years ago i do understand that what i'm really seeking to to get from you is some kind of explanation
00:18:03 you is some kind of explanation for what you did at the time when looking at the documents and whether you can recall specifically or not i do understand but i'd like to understand what you would have done by reference to what you might habitually have done
00:18:14 have done so let me just try this once more you you told us yesterday that you dealt in the uk market and to your way of understanding the only thing that mattered to your uk
00:18:25 the only thing that mattered to your uk customers
00:18:26 customers was the national classifications for fire and not the european classifications for fire that was what you told us on a number of occasions
00:18:35 occasions did that understanding ever change
00:18:39 um i as don't said i think towards the end of my my time then there were definitely more questions uh and more certificates being
00:18:50 questions uh and more certificates being shared
00:18:50 shared on the european certificate but i i really cannot remember what my thinking was
00:18:57 was around all my understanding at the time of the
00:19:01 of the relevance of those en certificates compared to the the bba were you surprised at the time not to
00:19:12 were you surprised at the time not to have received any class naught certification material from gwen nailed and again i really cannot recall what my response was at that particular time when you park
00:19:23 at that particular time when you park when you pass this material that you've received from her back to your customer did your customer ask you for the national classification uh for pe and fr
00:19:34 uh for pe and fr i i don't know i can't remember what their specific question was or what the specific request was and i don't recall what other information if any i would have sent on
00:19:48 do we take you from that answer that you sent these to your customers they never came back to you to ask you for the national class naught certificate and we certainly see no date no
00:19:58 no documentation to that effect
00:20:02 as i said i can't i i can't recall the exact situation that you're you're talking about um but i would have sent the information on and that would have been passed over to the relevant customer that had requested
00:20:14 the relevant customer that had requested the information and i'm about to suggest to you that at least by this point you knew very well that european classifications were of extreme relevance to uk to uk customers
00:20:27 extreme relevance to uk to uk customers and arconic knew that your customers knew that and i'm suggesting to you that you knew that as i said i think it was becoming more apparent that it was they were more more relevant can we move
00:20:39 they were more more relevant can we move to july 2015 uh and again this is the same exhibit run and look at page one five two met three zeros five three one seven three page one five two
00:20:52 df5 uh and this is an email run uh in july 2015 between you and mr and shea at arconic at the bottom of the
00:21:04 and shea at arconic at the bottom of the page
00:21:04 page you'll see an email
00:21:08 uh on the 30th of july 2015 from you to gwen is uh and you can uh you can see uh
00:21:19 uh and you can uh you can see uh that there just above just below the visit our new website at taylor maxwell do you see that yes and underneath that it says we have a project
00:21:30 a project we are working on where we are specifying renault bond and the architect is looking for details on fire rating could you forward to both myself and chris taylor copies
00:21:41 to both myself and chris taylor copies of current fire certificates for rb55 four millimeter pe core could you also put a description together so we can explain the class of fire rating and length of burn time if you could
00:21:53 and length of burn time if you could also include the same information for the fr core as well please and above that you said a follow-up email just above that on the screen um it's in french debbie french uh
00:22:06 um it's in french debbie french uh jody 30th of july 30th of july to grinnell durham danger you see that it's also going to vince meakins who by this time had taken over your role you had previously occupied
00:22:18 your role you had previously occupied until the previous december i think that's right isn't it you told us yesterday
00:22:22 yesterday that's right yeah and you say should have said
00:22:26 have said we have to achieve class naught rating both riveted and cassette panels now am i right that by this time this is july
00:22:36 july 2015 you knew that there might be a difference in the fire performance as between rivet and cassette fixes yes looking at that yes yes
00:22:49 yes looking at that yes yes when did you learn that that such a difference existed so i think it was the few months leading up to
00:22:58 up to to that particular point so while you were at taylor maxwell yes did that come as a surprise to you
00:23:11 i've certainly learned a considerable amount since i've been there huge amount did it come a surprise to you
00:23:18 you uh i don't recall again i don't i can't recall my exact um my exact reaction to it but yes it probably would
00:23:29 reaction to it but yes it probably would have been
00:23:40 did you seek to understand how it could have come about that for so many years you have not understood that there was a difference between the
00:23:51 that there was a difference between the fire performance of rivet on the one hand and cassette on the other i don't believe i did no is that not a serious matter for you to try to work out
00:24:03 uh no i didn't i don't think that i i looked at it in that way at the time did you see to alert reino bond with whom you were dealing and had been dealing throughout 2015
00:24:15 and had been dealing throughout 2015 that the bba certificate drew no such distinction no i don't i didn't do that why is that uh i i don't know i can't that question
00:24:26 uh i i don't know i can't that question did you seek to alert your clients to the fact that from now on the bba certificate although it drew no such distinction within it ought to be treated as drawing that
00:24:37 ought to be treated as drawing that distinction no i don't believe i did but again again i
00:24:43 i i would have it i would have expected if the bba wasn't valid that it wouldn't have been
00:24:48 have been it should have been withdrawn did you continue to use the bba certificate of taylor maxwell with your customers when you were selling or recommending rainer bond 55 either in pe or nfr
00:25:00 rainer bond 55 either in pe or nfr the bba certificate was available online on the
00:25:04 on the as a search for anybody so yes i would have been
00:25:08 have been well there's two parts of that sentence which don't necessarily marry up it was available online my question i'll ask it again is did you continue to use the bba certificate yourself while at taylor
00:25:20 certificate yourself while at taylor maxwell
00:25:22 maxwell when you were selling or recommending rayna bond 55 in either format to your customers uh i can't remember a specific instance of sending anything but yes possibly
00:25:34 of sending anything but yes possibly at any stage do you recall ever telling your customers that if they were going to order um reynabond 55
00:25:45 um reynabond 55 that there was a difference in the far performance as between rivet fix and cassette fix in in the peak with the pe core no i don't believe i did
00:25:56 don't believe i did why is that i can't i don't know i can't answer that question
00:26:06 so do we take it that from july 2015 and 15 onwards even though by then you knew as you've told us that there might be a difference in the fire performance as between rivet
00:26:18 in the fire performance as between rivet and cassette fix for pe you still sold rain upon pe 50 rb55 pe to your customers without alerting them to that difference
00:26:31 possibly yes now above this email we can see an email from grinnell durander
00:26:39 durander the same day we just go back to the document please if she attaches a document if we go to the
00:26:50 top of the page dear debbie she says and this is the same day 30th of july 2015 to you
00:26:57 to you uh and copy into vince meekins dear debbie please find it attach the document requested should you need additional information please let me know kind of regards gwen and if we go to page
00:27:09 gwen and if we go to page uh well i should just note to you the attachment uh which is rb554 fr bs476 class naught summary that's the
00:27:20 fr bs476 class naught summary that's the pdf you see that yes and if we go to the next page page 154
00:27:28 we can see the attachment and this is a report by uh x over warrington fire uh called class naught summary report
00:27:39 uh called class naught summary report you see that yes they dated if you look at the bottom right hand corner the 5th of december 2012.
00:27:48 was this a document you'd ever seen before do you think uh i'd recall having seen that before yes
00:27:55 you recall having seen that before when you received it at the time 30th of july 2015 did you recall at that time that you had seen it before
00:28:06 at that time that you had seen it before uh i probably wouldn't have because i recognized it i i wouldn't have questioned that right i don't recall seeing it specifically at
00:28:17 i don't recall seeing it specifically at that at that time but i am familiar with the document well i appreciate you may very well be familiar with the document now as french i understand that but my question is whether you were familiar with it at the time
00:28:28 familiar with it at the time or whether it was a new document you've never seen before no i was familiar with it at the time can you tell us how you you had become familiar with it so that you were familiar with it by
00:28:40 you were familiar with it by july 2015. i think i've seen it on in in documents that had been passed to me during my time at renabond
00:28:52 who would have who would have passed this to you during your time at reynolds um well again i can't be specific but i
00:29:03 um well again i can't be specific but i would say that would have come from the sales technical team and would it have been sent to you by email or how would it have been sent to you
00:29:11 you i believe it would have been on an email a format of some description would it have come from claude vale or somebody else in his team it could have come from claude it could have come from anybody in that team
00:29:23 have come from anybody in that team did it come as a request by you to them i can't recall did it was it unprompted and came
00:29:31 and came to you as part of the information they felt you ought to have i i really can't recall as to what the situation was when i but i do recognize the having seen the document before right were you given any explanation as
00:29:44 right were you given any explanation as to what this document represented or did i don't believe so right um let's go over the page to page 155 please
00:29:57 and here's a table which says that the product reference is reynabond fr you see that yes and um above that
00:30:09 you see that yes and um above that um
00:30:12 you can see the objective to assess the results of tests to bs four seven six part six
00:30:17 part six and seven you see that there yeah and um if you go
00:30:24 uh to uh the opinion at the bottom uh it says we consider the results of the tests
00:30:32 the tests to bs 476 part six and 7 demonstrate that the product has tested complies with the requirements for class naught as defined in paragraph a 13b of approved document
00:30:43 in paragraph a 13b of approved document b
00:30:43 b fire safety to the building regulations 2000.
00:30:48 2000. when you saw this document this told you that
00:30:51 that fr rayne bond was class naught didn't it it would have done yes did you notice that uh gwen is did not
00:31:02 did you notice that uh gwen is did not send you any such similar report in relation to pe whether in cassette fix or rivet fix i don't recall what
00:31:13 rivet fix i don't recall what at the time i don't know we haven't seen an email
00:31:19 an email in which you go back to her and ask her for the equivalent report for pe corps did you i don't recall i don't recall to that detail what what i did afterwards
00:31:31 detail what what i did afterwards we were asking for information to explain both cause from what i can remember on that email
00:31:38 email and that information would have been passed on
00:31:42 passed on it looks very much from the records we've got that you didn't go back and ask her
00:31:47 ask her for the equivalent report for pe core do you accept that you didn't i can't because i can't remember what what i did on that particular situation
00:31:59 what i did on that particular situation and on the footing that you didn't go back and ask her for such an equivalent report
00:32:03 report is that because you knew there wasn't one
00:32:07 one no i think the question in the email was that the customer was requesting they had to achieve a class though we were asking for an explanation and the difference between the two and information to support classo so if
00:32:20 and information to support classo so if that's what they'd sent us we would pass that on
00:32:22 that on indeed and that supported class o as you put it for raynaud fr there was no such report as we've seen uh which supported such a claim for pe
00:32:33 uh which supported such a claim for pe and my i'm putting to you that you didn't go back and ask gweney alder and jay for an equivalent report because you knew very well there wasn't one
00:32:44 well there wasn't one no i don't believe that would have been the reason why i i don't recall did you suspect even if you didn't know that there was no such equivalent report for pe again
00:32:56 no such equivalent report for pe again i can't answer that with with clarity with with
00:32:59 with with without remembering the exact circumstances of the situation let's go back to how you actually use that information if we move on in the same exhibit run please to page 159
00:33:13 we can see here
00:33:17 from the second email from the top of that page
00:33:22 that page here's an email from uh which is a follow-on from the email that gweneil duranjanji sent you uh which is the bottom part of the email you sent her
00:33:34 email you sent her now i need to go to the um the bottom of the previous page page 158 to go to the beginning of your message back to her and you could see the bottom of page 158
00:33:46 and you could see the bottom of page 158 that you
00:33:47 that you send an email to danny mcquade and graham byrne copied to chris taylor and vince meakins on friday the 31st of july 2015.
00:34:01 on friday the 31st of july 2015. uh and if you turn then to the top of page 159 please
00:34:09 you say we need to make sure that we only order fr core if project needs to achieve class achieve a naught or o fire rating if we don't highlight this to genius they only
00:34:21 don't highlight this to genius they only order p
00:34:22 order p e only and it won't have the rating required
00:34:25 required vince can you please confirm if fr is the same cost to us as pe
00:34:34 us as pe now just to just to be clear graham byrne who was one of the recipients of this email uh was he at genius facades yes he was right uh and uh i've shown you the text
00:34:45 right uh and uh i've shown you the text in at the top of page 159 we need to make sure we only order fr core is it right or do you accept that your email proceeded on the basis that there was no class
00:34:57 on the basis that there was no class naught certificate for pe core uh on that basis yes yes um on what basis did you reach that conclusion i i guess from the certificates that
00:35:09 i i guess from the certificates that we'd been sent over and the clarification from alcoa at the time
00:35:14 time yes what were those the the to meet the requirements of what the customer was requesting as class o we need it needed to be fr
00:35:27 we need it needed to be fr so are you telling us that by virtue of the fact that you had received no class o
00:35:33 o class naught certificate for pe you heard inferred that there was no such certificate i don't believe that's the way i thought of it at the time we were just we'd had clarification from alcoa in
00:35:45 we'd had clarification from alcoa in terms of the information we were asking and and that's what we were then following up with
00:35:51 with well just help me understand your evidence please you told us a moment ago that your email proceeded on the basis that there was no class naught certificate
00:36:02 there was no class naught certificate for pe core you'd agree with that on the basis of this email and then i've asked you
00:36:08 asked you what was the basis of your conclusion and you said you guessed from the certificates that we've been sent and the clarification from alcove at the time now let me look at that answer just a
00:36:20 now let me look at that answer just a little bit more closely first of all what clarification had you received from our comic that there was no class naught certificate in relation to pe called reigning bond 55
00:36:33 reigning bond 55 i don't know what information we'd have for them whether they'd sent something very specific to say there is no class over pe but looking at the information they sent across in answers of question we'd asked they'd
00:36:46 in answers of question we'd asked they'd supplied
00:36:47 supplied the certificate that had a classo and that's what we would have been sending on exactly and that is why i'm putting to you that you had inferred from the absence of any class
00:37:00 inferred from the absence of any class north certificate for pe and the fact that they only sent you one for fr that in fact no class naught certificate existed for pd that's right isn't it yes yes thank you
00:37:18 was it not then something of a surprise to you to learn after selling pe core rail bond 55 for many years on the understanding that it had to
00:37:29 on the understanding that it had to snort to disc discover that it didn't
00:37:34 again i don't recall specifically thinking that but i was surprised by that point that uh that the pe was not a class o
00:37:45 did you take this up with guanajuana no i don't believe i did did you take it up with vince meakins who after all had taken over your role by then within arconic no i don't
00:37:58 by then within arconic no i don't believe i did why's that i don't i don't know was this not a major moment for you uh after all as you told us the only thing that mattered to your uk customer base as far as fire
00:38:09 customer base as far as fire classification was concerned was national past naught here you are either being told or working out that there was no class north certificate for that product that should have would
00:38:20 for that product that should have would have come as as an earthquake to you at the time but not
00:38:24 not i don't i don't recall it did in that in that sense um i was involved in lots of other things at the time and and i i i don't i don't remember what my
00:38:35 i i i don't i don't remember what my reaction was you would re remember that reaction if you had genuinely been surprised and shocked to learn that the material you have been selling to your
00:38:47 material you have been selling to your uk customers did not have the one fire classification you understood it needed
00:38:53 it needed you would have you had been you would have recalled your reaction i would suggest to you yeah i possibly i i cannot remember what what my reaction was to to that um
00:39:05 what what my reaction was to to that um other than uh you know um surprised at the time that it didn't have the the classo you see isn't the reality that you weren't surprised at the time
00:39:16 that you weren't surprised at the time which is why you don't recall any particular reaction to it uh i i i'm not sure [Music]
00:39:26 [Music] isn't the reality that you knew and hadn't known for a long time either that there was no class naught that which supported read up on pe 55 or
00:39:38 read up on pe 55 or or or you didn't know one way or the other
00:39:44 no i hadn't known that for all that period of time no i haven't known that
00:39:54 let's go to your second witness statement page 15 please paragraph 53
00:40:05 you address this question to some extent here you say the paragraph 53 i did not recall why i concluded
00:40:13 concluded reyna bond pe did not have a class normal rating as a result of this exchange
00:40:17 exchange i don't think i spoke to gwenel about the issue at the time but i assume now that it was because no class
00:40:23 class naught report for reynabond pe had been provided
00:40:27 provided so i was not able to provide confirmation to my own customer who had requested it
00:40:35 now do you accept that that reasoning there
00:40:39 there is not reflected in your email uh to genius facades is it
00:40:46 um no possibly not
00:40:53 what's that i can't i don't know can't answer that question you say here to be fair to you you do say it that this is an assumption you're making
00:41:04 that this is an assumption you're making now
00:41:07 now that's right yes now we've seen many times in your witness statement and in your evidence over the last
00:41:18 over the last day or two that your justification for being comfortable selling renewable pe was that it was national class north and here we are at the end of july 2015 where you tell your customers that if
00:41:30 where you tell your customers that if they
00:41:31 they need to have a class naught material then they had to order rayner bond fr
00:41:40 do we conclude from that that the entire basis
00:41:43 basis of your belief such as it was that you could sell pe safely in the united kingdom had by now disappeared again i don't think i'd i thought of it
00:41:54 again i don't think i'd i thought of it in
00:41:55 in in that context and i was relying on people that had got far more knowledge of those things to be providing the right the right information and the
00:42:06 the right the right information and the right certificates and who would that have been that would have been
00:42:12 have been within within alcoa people within our color
00:42:18 who are you dealing with in our in our was that vince meakins well yeah generally i didn't have much many dealings with vince makins um it would have been with emails sent
00:42:29 um it would have been with emails sent in to
00:42:31 in to gwen at the time right why were you dealing with gwen gwenell during mj at the time and not been sneaking who have taken over your job
00:42:42 most of our communication went through the fabricator rather than um we didn't buy it directly off of
00:42:49 off of off of alcoa we were buying it through through a fabricator um but obviously some some of my communication in the early days before vince started went directly through to alcoa and you
00:43:02 went directly through to alcoa and you sent this email i know it's disappeared from the screen you can have it back if you like but it's 31st of july 2015. you sent this email some three and a half months
00:43:13 half months after the first order bond pe 55 for grenfell at this time at this moment reyna bond pe was still being supplied
00:43:26 reyna bond pe was still being supplied to that project and the refurbishment was still going on i'm telling you that as a fact
00:43:34 is there a reason why you didn't alert vince meakins to the true scale of the problem and tell him that on the grenfell tower project
00:43:43 project reyna bond 55 pe had been sold on the basis that it had classed naught
00:43:50 i don't know i'm not i can't recall the i think it was the middle of of 2015 or
00:43:58 or some point towards the middle of 2015 i even learned that that it had been ordered so no i wasn't oh i didn't do that
00:44:11 is it fair to say that at this point you knew for certain or a certain as you could be on what you had in front of you that the bba certificate was factually incorrect to the extent that it represented
00:44:22 that it represented that reyno bond 55 pe had class naught again i don't recall thinking of it along those along those lines that would have been
00:44:33 along those lines that would have been for other people to decide whether it needs to be withdrawn or not
00:44:40 so you left is this is this your evidence that you left that issue that problem for vince meakins and others are iconic
00:44:51 for vince meakins and others are iconic to
00:44:51 to sort out for themselves
00:44:54 well i don't again i don't recall thinking along those lines or in that context
00:44:59 context have made that that particular decision one way or another i was getting on with what i was doing and didn't it didn't no it didn't occur to me to do
00:45:10 it didn't no it didn't occur to me to do any of that did it not occur to you at the time that during 2013 and 14 you were selling reinaborn 55 with a pe core
00:45:21 pe core onto a high-rise residential building under a serious misapprehension as to its fire classification no it didn't why's that
00:45:33 i could i don't know it just it didn't you must have realized that surely come mid 2015 when you discovered as you've confirmed to us that you realized
00:45:45 to us that you realized both that cassette and rivet performed differently in a fire and that pe did not actually have anything to support its claim to class naught
00:45:57 claim to class naught that you had sold bond pe 55 onto the grenfell tower project on a false basis as to its fire classification no i don't i didn't i don't i didn't do
00:46:10 no i don't i didn't i don't i didn't do that
00:46:12 that you didn't realize no how could you not have realized the knowledge to be able to to put the put all those facts together
00:46:25 i want to turn them to a different topic which is the recording uh of uh or the transcript i should say of the 21st of june 2017
00:46:37 21st of june 2017 of a discussion uh between you and john simmons of semico and indeed of genius facades as i think you've confirmed now this is a few days after the grenfell tower fire do you recall
00:46:49 grenfell tower fire do you recall having a telephone conversation with john simmons of simcoe on the 21st of june 2017. i do did you know that he had recorded it no
00:47:00 did you know that he had recorded it no i did not know he'd recorded it
00:47:08 there is a transcript of the recording which is at met3040858 we just have the first page of that up
00:47:22 please
00:47:50 met3040858 yes thank you now i i may have misled you and i apologize i think i put to you that it was a telephone conversation in fact i think it wasn't a telephone conversation was it
00:48:03 sorry it
00:48:08 do you remember whether whether this was a telephone conversation or a face-to-face conversation uh i believe it was a telephone conversation i was having right now you we can see that the uh
00:48:20 right now you we can see that the uh transcript starts in the middle of the conversation with a male saying try and resolve this inaudible we see that and the conversation is set out
00:48:30 out in tabular form with person speaking male on the left and d french also in that column and the text of the conversation between
00:48:41 and the text of the conversation between the two of you in the right hand side of the table if you
00:48:45 you go five dime if you stay if you go to page two
00:48:50 page two and go five lines down on page two please
00:48:54 please you can see that jay simmons says uh you see that he says yeah we now have an
00:49:00 an issue yeah this seems to coincide as when do you know exactly when they had their type hole certificate take taken away now the word typol
00:49:12 now the word typol appears repeatedly in this transcript can you help us interpolate that no idea never heard the expression
00:49:23 that no idea never heard the expression what does he mean what was he saying type o and this is a mistranscription i i don't know i couldn't it could very well be i don't know
00:49:34 well be i don't know were you aware that any documentation or certification which said that reynold bond was class naught
00:49:41 naught had been removed or withdrawn so could you just repeat the question were you aware at the time you had this conversation uh whether any documentation or certification
00:49:55 i mean let me try that one again you're quite right and were you aware at the time
00:49:59 time that any certificate in relation to reyno bond had been removed or withdrawn
00:50:07 no that i was not aware that anything had been
00:50:10 had been withdrawn apart from the obviously and understanding what the new en certificates were can we then scroll down to the next uh part of this conversation
00:50:21 part of this conversation row six where you uh respond and you say i i don't know because you see that
00:50:30 see that yes i i don't know because we weren't we weren't given any information about it and i can i cannot i cannot i cannot and then it goes on why did they not make it public
00:50:42 make it public or that public why did they not make that public because i think they were challenging the testing of it and it was also coinciding with them looking at developing a different a different colored core right but i
00:50:53 a different colored core right but i don't know whether that was whether the certification was connected to the core there was a lot of stuff in okay in terms of development that they didn't right they didn't share with any of us right this is the problem
00:51:05 right this is the problem and you say inaudible they're very secret over stuff like that he says secret they can't be they need to come to this party right in short they have been selling this material under a bba certificate yeah can i just interrupt you i think it
00:51:18 yeah can i just interrupt you i think it would help all of us but particularly the witness if we could scroll up or scroll down i'm sorry the document because we now can't see what you're reading
00:51:29 reading and you're quite right we are i think in the middle of page two where the word inaudible appears if i can get back to that
00:51:40 can get back to that right thank you and uh you say inaudible they are very secret over stuff like that the secret they can't be they need to come to this party right in short they have been selling this material under a bba certificate
00:51:52 this material under a bba certificate yeah
00:51:55 and just just pausing there is this a reference to a change in the core color of rayna bond pe from translucent to black yes i believe they were looking to
00:52:07 yes i believe they were looking to change their core color right even though you left iconic at the end of 2014 you were still aware about that change weren't you clearly i
00:52:18 weren't you clearly i believe i had some information from i think it might have been peter froelish that they were looking to change the color of the call right you've seen from this to have been aware that there was some kind of
00:52:29 aware that there was some kind of testing program going on at the end of 2014
00:52:32 2014 is that is that right again yes i was aware
00:52:37 aware and uh as we've seen you just say next to the words inaudible they are very secret over stuff like that
00:52:44 that uh do i understand correctly that arconic did not share information with you about for example testing programs not until it was necessary for it to be published no
00:52:55 published no right when you say not until it was necessary to be published what would dictate whether it was necessary to be published i guess when they need to update certificates
00:53:08 am i right in thinking that arconic did not share information with you about the far performance of brainerd
00:53:16 they would have shared with me various the certificates once once anything has been test testing had been done and was certificates need to be published that's when they would send them to us
00:53:27 that's when they would send them to us what was it that you were referring to here in this conversation when you said they are very secretive stuff like that what's that um i think it was referring to the changing core they wouldn't want
00:53:39 to the changing core they wouldn't want the market to know that they were looking at a different a different um bringing out a new product or a different core or a new development until they were ready to do it
00:53:49 it can we just scroll up a little bit up this page uh to about seven lines above the big inaudible
00:53:56 inaudible where you say because i think they were challenging can you see that
00:54:05 you see you saying there it's about just just about halfway down the screen in front of you because i think they were challenging testing of it and it was also coinciding with them looking at developing a different
00:54:16 looking at developing a different a different colored core when you said i think
00:54:19 think they were challenging the testing of it what was that a reference to i can't recall whether that was uh what that was whether that was the new core or what that would have been in relation
00:54:31 or what that would have been in relation to right was it was it something to do with the uh of rayner bond in a fire test
00:54:42 i honestly don't know i can't recall that
00:54:45 that when you said they were challenging the testing of it i think they were challenging the testing of it what was the source of your information again i can't i don't recall
00:54:57 who was challenging i don't recall
00:55:02 is it fair to say just looking at this so far that you while you were at our comic you had an idea that something was wrong with the third performance of raynaud's pe core
00:55:13 raynaud's pe core no it's becoming more apparent after i'd left not before i don't recall it becoming apparent before right should we go to page three of a transcript please and i want to pick up nine rows down
00:55:24 and i want to pick up nine rows down with you
00:55:31 and if we blow that up a little bit there you you say that or rather you say that uh about a third of the way down the screen christ but surely i know that the bba
00:55:43 christ but surely i know that the bba and then mr simmons says you said to me you said to me when they had the call when they had their fire certificate removed on the pe core yeah you said they made an eye level decision
00:55:54 level decision it's probably a high level decision not to put this in the public domain
00:55:59 and then you say they i don't know if i said they
00:56:03 said they didn't you they made a decision not to put it in the public domain they made some decisions not to make it mr simmons says public you say inaudible known and i'm pretty certain that was
00:56:14 known and i'm pretty certain that was because they were challenging it okay so whether that so we need to find out
00:56:19 out you say whether they challenged it and he says yeah and then you say and they then held on to their certification i don't think so i don't know that that's what i can help
00:56:31 that's what i can help i don't know that that's what i can't help you with what the transcript says were you aware of a high level decision not to make the fire performance of
00:56:42 not to make the fire performance of reynold bond publicly known no i don't think i was no what were you referring to here i can't recall i don't remember
00:56:56 you don't remember this is in the aftermath of the grenfell tower fire a few days later
00:57:05 you you say they made a decision not to put it in the public domain what is it that was not put into the public domain
00:57:16 public domain uh possibly the new testing whether they were still challenging it or not i i don't recall the exact discussion that i was having with with john simmons at the time um was not ever easy having a discussion
00:57:30 was not ever easy having a discussion with uh with mr simmons um
00:57:36 it just generally was not normally a discussion it was not easy having discussions uh sometimes with with him do you know who made the decision that
00:57:48 do you know who made the decision that you're referring to here the decision not to put it in the public domain
00:57:53 domain no i don't do you remember anything about these kinds of decisions being communicated to you while you were at iconic
00:58:02 at iconic no i don't recall
00:58:10 let's go back to the transcript uh and look below where we were and this may not be that easy to find on the page i'll try and help you
00:58:21 the page i'll try and help you as best i can it's about fourteen rows up from the bottom
00:58:27 uh where uh it's i think a quarter of the way down the screen uh you say uh
00:58:38 uh you say uh and they then held on to their certification i don't know that that's what i can't help you with you saw that before
00:58:44 before and mr simmons then says well this is this is the other issue well you say the inaudible this is the other issue this is the other issue we've got yeah that letter that you got out and
00:58:56 that letter that you got out and out of in december 15 is a completely different fire code to what's on their bba taps four times
00:59:07 and you say but again you can't deny that they've sent that out and then if we go over to page five
00:59:23 uh 15 lines down
00:59:28 we can see there are two reasonably large chunks of simmons speech and he then says in the second of those and then basically you see that he says and then basically the next step to this then is
00:59:40 basically the next step to this then is in 2015 they issued a letter we haven't got a clue where it come from yeah addressed to us which you sent to me
00:59:48 me the other day yeah and when i checked when i checked the file codes on that letter albeit they're still stated both products that are type o when i checked the file codes on that letter yeah they
00:59:59 the file codes on that letter yeah they are different to the bba do you know what letter mr simmons is referring to there from december 2015 um i i can't remember specifically but i
01:00:11 um i i can't remember specifically but i think there was a letter that he is referring to there that they received from alcoa but i can't remember the details of it right
01:00:22 of it right let me see if this helps you could you please go to arc50699
01:00:35 this is a a letter dated the 14th of december 2015 from claude verde to genius facades you see yeah and uh
01:00:47 it's addressed to dear partners and uh in the second paragraph he says the british standard bs 476 part six and seven are not relevant to distinguish between our rene bond pe
01:00:59 distinguish between our rene bond pe and our relevant fr both are classified class not when tested in accordance with this standard but those two products are very different in their behavior when exposed to a flame
01:01:10 to a flame this difference is shown when tested in accordance with the european standard er 13501
01:01:15 13501 where the following following classes are achieved rain upon p e class e renewable fr class b s one d naught see that is this letter is this the letter do you
01:01:27 is this letter is this the letter do you think that mr simmons was talking about yes so now this is a letter sent nearly a year after you left iconic so we weren't able to ask you about it because you weren't there then
01:01:39 because you weren't there then my question is how did you or did you see this letter uh when or had you seen this letter by the time you were having this conversation with mr simmons in june 2017.
01:01:51 i my first time i saw it was when he showed it to me well he he says that in the text the conversation i've read to you um there's a letter addressed to us
01:02:03 um there's a letter addressed to us which you sent to me the other day is this the letter that he was referring to in that conversation uh i don't i don't remember whether that was the one but i do recall seeing that letter
01:02:14 one but i do recall seeing that letter that you've just shown in what context or what circumstances do you recall seeing the letter that i've just shown you again i think it was mr simmons that
01:02:25 again i think it was mr simmons that showed it to me right what letter are you referring to then which he says you sent him the other day
01:02:36 other day again i don't recall that when i think it's the one that you've just shown me right so you had a copy of this letter as well did you no i think it's he showed it to me
01:02:49 no i think it's he showed it to me i don't recall what letter is being referred to in that transcript but i do remember seeing that letter that you've just shown me can you account for how he says that you sent him a letter the other day which
01:03:00 sent him a letter the other day which you say is this letter uh if you haven't received that letter yourself from our comic book don't recall receiving that letter directly into myself from our colleague do you remember
01:03:11 from our colleague do you remember whether anybody at our comic had sent you this letter don't i don't recall that can we go back to the transcript well let me ask you did you appreciate
01:03:23 well let me ask you did you appreciate when you saw this letter uh whenever that had been that arconic's position according to claude vale was that when exposed to a flame rhinobot 55 with a pe core was a rainer
01:03:35 rhinobot 55 with a pe core was a rainer was there class e yes i did was that the first time that you discovered that fact as i said my knowledge had improved
01:03:46 as i said my knowledge had improved significantly by then and i was beginning to certainly understand the uh details of it
01:03:53 it in more in great in much better in a lot more detail and again did that not come as something of a shock to you to discover that so far from being class b as the bba certificate had represented
01:04:05 certificate had represented reynold 55 standard with the pe core had achieved a class e at least in cassette yes and given that it had come as a shock
01:04:16 and given that it had come as a shock did you not seek to take that up with somebody at iconic
01:04:20 iconic and ask them no did you not have a conversation with vince meakins about it no i don't believe so after all vince meekins has taken over
01:04:31 meekins has taken over at your role at raynor bond uh did you not seek to tell vince meakins to warn harley
01:04:36 harley and warn those on the grenfell tower project that you have supplied rainer bond
01:04:41 bond 55 with a pe core which in fact did not have class b by class e no that wasn't wasn't something that i did
01:04:49 did again why is that i i don't know i'd moved on and i i didn't think in that i didn't think in that way
01:04:58 that way right did you not appreciate by this time at the very latest that the material you had supplied for application as the rain screen at granville tower was
01:05:10 at granville tower was not up to national class or euro class fire standards there would have been many other people in within the chain that would have been looking at what was being ordered all
01:05:21 looking at what was being ordered all the way through that so no i wouldn't have
01:05:23 have i wouldn't have thought to do any of that well you may have thought there were other people in the chain looking at that i'm interested in what you thought it did my question didn't you appreciate by
01:05:35 my question didn't you appreciate by this time at the very latest that the product the material that you had supplied for application as the rain screen at grenfell tower was not up either to national class fire
01:05:47 was not up either to national class fire standards or european class fire standards
01:05:50 standards no i didn't think to to do any of that did it not occur to you that the material you had sold for use of grenfell tower was dangerous no it didn't occur to me why is that i don't know
01:06:05 why is that i don't know can we go back to the transcript please page six now i'd like to go to eight lines down
01:06:15 and he mr simmons says uh which is rightly so yeah and just to let you know we set fire to a piece of stack next to
01:06:26 we set fire to a piece of stack next to a piece of rhino bomb the renault goes up like a [Â __Â ] bonfire the stack does withstand it yeah around about the same time
01:06:32 time the luca bond completely move remove their pe
01:06:35 their pe call from their shelves and said and the excuse they give was we now only want to sell one product renamed it a lucrabond plus which is their fr grade you say yeah and inaudible and simmons
01:06:47 you say yeah and inaudible and simmons says yeah so both of them coincide with roundabout these dates yeah the pe corps he goes on the pe court was removed from the market and they never give no excuses why they did it now under the
01:06:58 excuses why they did it now under the duty of care yeah basically luca bond would not have brought that into the public because anything they'd sold prior to that they'd have been liable for you say um so they just changed their product changed their name and everything else just hoped to god nobody's noticed it
01:07:10 just hoped to god nobody's noticed it and you say and he then asks you why did rayna bond why did reyno bond not do this at the same time
01:07:18 same time and you say i don't know there was no dis well there were some discussions around whether luca bond did do that
01:07:26 do that and it was it was the cost implications
01:07:31 and then he says but you don't something did you say and you because this is how the transcript goes and then he says you said you advised that they [Â __Â ] that they should do
01:07:42 that they [Â __Â ] that they should do the same
01:07:43 the same and then you say well i did say to them that they should do the same but that was down to the fact that it was more to do with the fact that we didn't want two products in the market but there was an awful lot of stuff going on because the sign and display
01:07:54 going on because the sign and display market was not doing as well as it should be
01:07:57 should be now john simmons refers there to a decision he thinks the luca bond made to withdraw the sales of pe called acn and only go with fr
01:08:08 uh was that at around about the same time as the uae fires in april may 2013 that we looked at in detail yesterday
01:08:19 detail yesterday i don't know i'm not sure of the dates now you say in the transcript that there were some discussions around it uh what discussions were those
01:08:32 the pe and the f5 you mean the discussions about whether to to withdraw the reno bond pe panel from the market in the way that a luca bond had done and proceed only
01:08:44 a luca bond had done and proceed only with selling fr core yeah i recall vaguely having a conversation with merkstein about uh whether we would be doing the same thing
01:08:55 doing the same thing for for the uk and and i believe that the answer was that we would continue as we were for commercial reasons um i believe that that's again my recollection of it is very vague but i
01:09:08 recollection of it is very vague but i believe that was part of the reasons now you just go back to the transcript where we were if we can please
01:09:19 you just have that back up on the screen
01:09:23 you said to mr simmons just this is just before the second inaudible in the lengthy passage they're about three quarters of the way down the screen
01:09:34 the way down the screen well i did say to them that they should do the same um who is the then there who did you tell
01:09:41 tell that that renault should do the same it would have probably been a discussion with peter froley she was my direct line manager at the time and at the time which is the time
01:09:54 and at the time which is the time again i can't be i'm not sure when that would have been it would have been latterly rather than with my time with them rather than early on
01:10:03 on and again would that have been around about the time that you saw the richard gita email in may 2013
01:10:11 2013 escalated that email to peter frodick and others and then wrote the 13th of may email to your
01:10:17 your approved fabricators possibly i'd be guessing
01:10:23 guessing well i don't want you to guess i'm just trying to prompt your recollection is your reflection that that would have been the time when you had that discussion that you're referring to yes possibly
01:10:33 possibly right
01:10:37 and do you remember what peter froelich said to you
01:10:41 as i say i think the i don't remember specifically what he said uh but the the general consensus while we were going to continue as as we were and did he tell you
01:10:55 as as we were and did he tell you uh that uh that um that iconic did not want two products in the market
01:11:05 i can't remember whether that was the reason for it or or what it was we already had two products on the market we had there was already fr well they were already manufacturing fr and pe
01:11:16 and pe so i'm not sure that would have been the reason for not withdrawing it if we can get back to the transcript please again and just look a few lines above where we were just looking together a moment ago
01:11:27 were just looking together a moment ago you see that you say there in response to mr simmons saying why did reynold
01:11:34 reynold not do this at the same time that's remove pe from the market you say i don't know there was no dis well there were some discussions around whether luca bond did do that
01:11:46 around whether luca bond did do that and it was it was the cost implications could you just help me by cost implications what did you mean the fact that we would have had to have supplied fr
01:11:58 supplied fr at a more expensive rate
01:12:02 and who told you that because the cost difference between fr and pe were there was a cost difference between pe
01:12:13 there was a cost difference between pe and and fr
01:12:17 so does that mean that you would have made smaller margins if you'd only been selling fr well as i said yesterday or the day before i i wasn't involved in the
01:12:29 wasn't involved in the margins i had no idea what margins um alcoa were making at the time on any of their products no but clearly you'd got the impression from somewhere
01:12:40 from somewhere [Music]
01:12:41 [Music] that you were passing on to mr simmons that the reason why reyno bond was not removed from the market in the same way that a luca bond had been removed in each case pe was cost implications i'm just seeking
01:12:53 was cost implications i'm just seeking to understand exactly what you meant when you told him that it was cost implications then yes i'm that must have been along along those lines yes right so do we take it from that as a
01:13:05 right so do we take it from that as a general
01:13:06 general point that the to the best of your recollection the reason why our colleague did not withdraw
01:13:13 withdraw its reno bond p e panel from the market in the way that 3a had removed its luca bond pe panel from the market was because of commercial considerations
01:13:28 was because of commercial considerations i mean as i said i can only go on what they were giving me at the time but yes yes do you recall whether in considering those commercial
01:13:40 in considering those commercial considerations any consideration was given to
01:13:43 given to the fire safety consequences of continuing to sell renault bond 55 pe i don't recall any conversations about
01:13:58 nature
01:14:07 you're now the national chatting director at taylor maxwell aren't you yes and i think you've occupied that role since early 2018 haven't you that's right would you sell a facade
01:14:19 that's right would you sell a facade today with renee bond pe cassettes for use on a tall residential building regardless of the regulatory environment we don't currently get involved in any
01:14:30 we don't currently get involved in any acm materials
01:14:33 mr chairman mrs french i've come to the end of my prepared questions you know it's time for the morning break in any event i'm grateful too uh to you miss french for bearing with me so far
01:14:45 bearing with me so far i'm going to ask the chairman to take a break now but also to see whether there are any further questions to come from uh others who are observing this yes well miss french it's time we had a
01:14:56 yes well miss french it's time we had a break anyway and that will give an opportunity for those who want to suggest any further questions to contact council for that purpose so we'll stop now we'll resume at half past
01:15:09 stop now we'll resume at half past eleven
01:15:10 eleven and uh please remember what i said to you in the past about not talking to anybody
01:15:15 anybody about your evidence over the break and then when we come back we'll see if there are any further questions all right thank you sir thank you very much
01:35:05 welcome back everyone uh we're going to see whether there are any more questions council has for miss french so miss french you're there are you you can see me and hear me yes i can thank you
01:35:18 see me and hear me yes i can thank you sir
01:35:18 sir thank you very much well we'll go straight to mr minute and mr miller do you have any more questions mr chairman i do have one or two more questions
01:35:26 questions she told us this morning uh that uh you recall having discussions after i showed you the transcript you had discussions with our conic personnel at maxheim
01:35:37 personnel at maxheim about whether to withdraw renault bomb pe from the market in the light of the uae
01:35:42 uae fires can i ask you to be shown yesterday's transcript please at page
01:35:54 88.
01:36:08 and
01:36:13 uh if you can be if you go to the bottom of uh
01:36:16 of uh i think maybe the top of page 89. uh i'm sorry that is a wrong reference um
01:36:28 i'm sorry that is a wrong reference um yesterday you uh when i asked you questions about the um about whether you had any discussions about the uae files with anybody at merckstein
01:36:39 merckstein and i asked you whether or not or why it was you continue to offer reynabond 55pe core as a standard in the uk market without some kind of warning as to its
01:36:50 without some kind of warning as to its fire performance you said i would have needed to have had a specific guidance from merkstein to do different my question
01:37:00 question was did you seek any specific guidance from merkstein you said i don't recall doing so
01:37:06 doing so and then you said i don't you do you don't recall doing so does that mean you don't think you did so to the best of your
01:37:11 your recollection you say yeah i can't recall and in light of the uh evidence this morning what is your recollection did you in fact have any discussions
01:37:23 did you in fact have any discussions with anybody at murxheim in the light of the uae
01:37:27 the uae fires about whether or not you should be or our colleagues should be withdrawing reynabon 55pe call from the market as i've just explained i do recall
01:37:38 as i've just explained i do recall having
01:37:39 having some conversation about the pe and fr core on the uk market what i don't
01:37:45 don't recall is whether that was specific to the
01:37:49 the fires other fires in other parts of the world
01:37:52 world but that's the bit i can't recall i see the chairman asked you to help him and he said you might have said to merck should we still be offering pe
01:38:04 should we still be offering pe as standard without expressing your view one way or the other but at least prompting them to consider the question and your answer was i don't recall whether i did or didn't sir
01:38:15 recall whether i did or didn't sir is your recollection different now having might show you i haven't shown you the transcript of your conversation with mr simmons this morning
01:38:24 morning yes it would it would it has certainly brought back some other thoughts that yes i probably have had other conversations with mark simon about it so can we now proceed on the basis that it is your evidence that
01:38:36 it is your evidence that at the time of the uae fires you did have
01:38:39 have discussions with those at march time about whether or not reynold 55 but the pe core should be withdrawn yeah there were some discussions i do i do believe i had those some discussions
01:38:51 do believe i had those some discussions about whether it should what the plan was for pe and fr
01:38:55 fr in the light of the uae fires i can't remember whether that's specifically about the uae fires but i do recall having conversations with them about fr and pe calls
01:39:09 with them about fr and pe calls and just to put the point again can we take it therefore but from that point onwards in time mid may 2013 at the latest you knew that reyna bond 55
01:39:20 you knew that reyna bond 55 the pe corps was risky from a fire safety point of view um i'm not sure it would have been that would have been my thinking
01:39:32 would have been my thinking i would have been guided by merck slime as to what whether it was it was okay to leave it in the market or not leave it in the market
01:39:45 now i'm sorry mr miller just help me a little bit more miss french did you not form some view of your own as to whether it was sensible to keep selling pe in the market
01:39:58 pe in the market i don't believe i did no sir um i think i was very much being guided by by what merck signed were the factory were telling me to to do all right thank you
01:40:10 to do all right thank you now at the very end of your evidence mrs french you uh told us that you agreed that you were now
01:40:17 now the national padding manager at taylor maxwell
01:40:22 maxwell and now i think national telling director at taylor maxwell can you explain how you were given that role
01:40:30 role uh without any technical knowledge understanding or training about technical matters
01:40:39 the majority of the work
01:40:44 some of the systems that we deal with are non-combustible systems and the i'm looking after some administration functions and other external sales people
01:40:57 and other external sales people do we take it your role even now does not require you to have any technical or any real technical expertise
01:41:05 expertise understanding or experience we we basically work very closely with the manufacturers we deal with and they they provide all the necessary tools and information
01:41:16 information and advice that we need to be able to pass on to our customers does that tell us that when you're dealing with manufacturers including iconic even now
01:41:29 including iconic even now you would expect the people you're dealing with as a customer to have the relevant technical expertise experience and knowledge yes can you explain
01:41:40 yes can you explain how you as you've told us when you were at our colleague did not have the expertise training technical experience etc that you would expect someone in your position
01:41:52 expect someone in your position to have so could you repeat the question can you explain to us how it is that uh can you explain to us how it is that you didn't have as you told us yesterday
01:42:05 you didn't have as you told us yesterday the technical experience knowledge education
01:42:08 education expertise when you were performing your role at arconic that you would now expect someone occupying that role to have yeah we've i mean my knowledge
01:42:19 to have yeah we've i mean my knowledge has grown significantly uh since joining taylor maxwell um and we have lots and lots of training with all of our product manufacturers
01:42:30 all of our product manufacturers on an ongoing basis that wasn't quite an answer to my question i'll put it one more time can you explain to us how it is that you didn't have the technical experience as you maintain
01:42:42 technical experience as you maintain the technical knowledge the education and the expertise when you are performing your role in sales at arconic but you would now expect someone occupying that role today to have
01:42:55 i i'm not really sorry i'm not really following the questions let me put it more more simply you told us yesterday that in the sales role you didn't have any technical knowledge and expertise
01:43:07 any technical knowledge and expertise and you left that to others you're now telling us that in your role that you occupy today you would expect salespeople to have the technical knowledge
01:43:14 knowledge can you account for the difference i'm not sure that i've actually said that that us the sales people at taylor maxwell as i say they they are
01:43:25 taylor maxwell as i say they they are all
01:43:26 all they have they receive relevant training from our manufacturers and we have significant support from our manufacturers our product manufacturers to be able to give the right advice the right information
01:43:37 the right advice the right information across the customers we we don't offer advice to those customers we just make sure they have all the right information to hand
01:43:47 i have a final question for you and it's a question that the inquiry we ask people with a particular sphere of responsibility looking back on your time at our conic
01:43:58 looking back on your time at our conic and your involvement in selling reynabon 55 with the pe corps for cassette use at grenfell tower is there anything looking back on that looking back on your time at our comic that you would have done differently
01:44:11 i've obviously had a number of uh a good few years to be able to reflect on this i mean firstly i want to say that it was a dreadful tragedy
01:44:23 dreadful tragedy uh one that i hope that we never have to witness again i've learned significant amounts and there is an awful lot that i've learned and taken on board fully and i'm
01:44:35 and taken on board fully and i'm making sure that i improve on that knowledge
01:44:39 knowledge every day and that i pass that on to everybody that i'm currently working with and come into contact with
01:44:46 french thank you very much uh and i should thank you for your evidence for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful thank you very much i have no further questions for you
01:44:58 have no further questions for you thank you mr miller well it just remains for me ms french to thank you very much for making yourself available to give evidence i'm sorry that we detained you for rather longer than we originally hoped to do so i hope it
01:45:09 originally hoped to do so i hope it hasn't
01:45:10 hasn't caused too much inconvenience but it has been very helpful for us to hear your evidence and say we are very grateful and and that's all the questions we have for you and you will know as it were released and thank you very
01:45:22 as it were released and thank you very much thank you sir now um at this stage we will have to have another short break while we make arrangements to call our next witness so
01:45:35 witness so we still know as it were suspend the hearing for i hope not too long until we're ready to see the next witness
01:45:43 witness but thank you all very much
02:12:03 welcome back everyone i'm sorry about the delay
02:12:07 the delay but we are now ready to see our next witness who i think is mr vince meakins is that right ms grange yes that's correct mr chairman please could we have
02:12:19 correct mr chairman please could we have mr meekins no i'm going to ask mr meekins whether he can hear me and see me but at the moment i can't see or hear him he may be off my
02:12:32 see or hear him he may be off my screen i can hear you sir ah miss deakins yes i cannot see you i've discovered how to get you into shot so um you can hear me can you i can hear you clearly sir yeah
02:12:43 you clearly sir yeah and you can see me i hope yes i can yeah very good
02:12:47 very good now um i think on the screen in front of you
02:12:51 you you should have the words of the affirmation yes i have good well could i ask you to make that affirmation as the next step please
02:13:00 please of course i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i should give
02:13:07 give shall be that truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth very good thank you very much indeed um we've got a couple of housekeeping matters to deal with
02:13:18 matters to deal with could i ask you please whether you can if you confirm that you're alone in the room from which you're giving your evidence
02:13:23 evidence i am thank you that you don't have any documents or other materials with you i do not good and that your mobile phone is in another room and you've got no other electronic
02:13:34 and you've got no other electronic device with you that's capable of receiving messages i haven't and it is not in the ring yeah thank you very much indeed now um you probably like to know that your legal representatives
02:13:46 your legal representatives are in the virtual hearing room uh they'll be following the evidence and they are able to intervene if they consider it necessary to do so but i've asked them to keep their
02:13:57 but i've asked them to keep their microphones and cameras switch off unless there is a need to do that all right but they're there to keep an eye on you so to speak um i hope we shan't have any problems with sound
02:14:08 we shan't have any problems with sound or vision
02:14:08 or vision but if we do have technical difficulties we'll take a short break uh while we resolve them and if you need to attract my attention for any reason just make some sort of gesture so that i
02:14:20 just make some sort of gesture so that i can see that you want to say something i will that right okay um we shall have the usual break for lunch and a a short break in the course of the afternoon
02:14:32 break in the course of the afternoon um if you need any additional break well again would you indicate please um talking about breaks i think i should say no that once you've started giving
02:14:43 say no that once you've started giving your evidence it's very important that you don't discuss your evidence or anything related to it with anyone else until you've completely finished i'll try to remind you of that when we
02:14:55 i'll try to remind you of that when we have breaks but if i forget to do so would you please bear that in mind and at all times anything you'd like to ask me or raise before we start
02:15:07 me or raise before we start no i think i'm okay at this point thanks sir very good in that case i'm going to invite miss grange to put some questions to you yes we're strange yes thank you mr chairman
02:15:18 chairman yes thank you mr meekins we're very grateful for you attending the public inquiry and assisting us with our investigations if you have any difficulty understanding anything i'm putting to you today
02:15:29 anything i'm putting to you today please just ask me to repeat the question or put the point in a different way
02:15:35 way we'll have the break this afternoon but if you feel you need uh a more frequent break just let us know please try and keep your voice up as well for the transcriber who's taking a
02:15:47 well for the transcriber who's taking a clear note of everything we're saying and do try not to
02:15:52 not to shake or nod your head we do need a recorded
02:15:55 recorded answer for the transcript to my questions
02:15:58 questions i understand okay let's go to your witness statement then if we can pull that up on the screen it's
02:16:07 met3053164
02:16:13 so this is your witness statement to the inquiry and if we go to page 33 of that statement we can see there that it's dated the 4th of november 2019 and is that your signature
02:16:28 2019 and is that your signature it is and have you read that statement recently
02:16:32 recently i have and can you confirm that the contents are true i can confirm yes and have you discussed your evidence before coming here today no i haven't
02:16:45 now i'm going to start by asking you some questions about your career history and if we can begin by looking at paragraph five of your witness statement on page two
02:17:00 your witness statement on page two you can pull up the witness statement
02:17:04 and if we look in the first two lines you tell us there that you began working in effect
02:17:09 in effect for arconic on the first of may 2015 as the uk sales manager for its reynabond product range you see that there now you refer to iconic as aap sas
02:17:22 now you refer to iconic as aap sas throughout your statement but in common with
02:17:26 with how mr millet has just dealt with it i'm going to refer to that as our conics throughout is that okay that's fine yeah and even though the iconic was previously known as alcoa wasn't it before
02:17:38 as alcoa wasn't it before 2016. that's correct yes yeah so we'll refer to our conic now it's right isn't it that the uk sales manager role
02:17:49 manager role for arconic was vacant at the time you stepped into that position is that right it was yes and deborah french your predecessor had left or iconic to go to taylor
02:18:01 had left or iconic to go to taylor maxwell in december 2014 before you starting in may 2015. that's right isn't it i believe so i'm not 100
02:18:09 not 100 of the dates for deborah but certainly yeah that was the gap but you were aware where you that there'd been a a period of several months
02:18:18 months with the royal being vacant yes for sure yeah around about six months or so yeah yeah and if we can look at paragraph six of your statement you give us some of your background
02:18:29 you give us some of your background prior to joining iconic so this is on page two as well
02:18:36 and you explain there that prior to joining arconic you worked for a company called
02:18:42 called category cladding uk limited that's in the second line and that was part of the eurocloud group is that correct that's correct yes yeah and is it right that you work for category cladding
02:18:55 that you work for category cladding from 2008 until you took up your role with arconic in may 2015. that'd be correct yes
02:19:06 correct yes and then two lines down um in paragraph six of your statement you begin to explain what category cladding was and you tell us that it was a manufacturer and supplier
02:19:18 manufacturer and supplier of metal roof and wall products thus including aluminium composite material acm and other metal composite material mcm
02:19:29 and other metal composite material mcm rain screen systems that right it's correct whereas the uh i worked on the mcn side uh the acm was a
02:19:37 a company called booth murray that were part of
02:19:41 part of the category sorry part of the euroclad group
02:19:44 group i see yeah the acm was uh under the the booth murray banner i see yes because you continue in your in that paragraph of your statement
02:19:56 in that paragraph of your statement we could pick it up in the fourth line you say while i knew broadly what those products were i did not work on those product lines while at euroclad
02:20:07 while at euroclad so can we just be absolutely clear which product lines did you not work on while at the hdm side the aluminium composite material it was a metal composite material
02:20:19 a metal composite material i see so you did work on the mcm side the mcm side yes yeah and what type of metal composite materials were those that would be a steel metal uh
02:20:30 that would be a steel metal uh material uh that would predominantly be uh sort of put on to agricultural buildings
02:20:40 and what was um you say it was a composite material what was in the core of that
02:20:45 of that it would have been any selected material so it would have had an insulated backing
02:20:50 backing i see and what was the nature of that insulated backing did you know what substance it was i'm not 100 sure i think it would have been
02:20:59 been a pir or something along those lines or pur
02:21:02 pur material now during those seven years that you worked at category cladding did you gain any understanding about what acm
02:21:12 what acm products were even though you weren't directly involved with those products not really i didn't get involved in the acm side as i say that was that was booth murray i had an understanding of what the
02:21:24 i had an understanding of what the products were but not an in-depth understanding what did you understand about acn products at that time i knew they're aluminium
02:21:33 aluminium coated material with a core uh and you know they were used in architectural projects as well as uh corporate identification product that sort of thing yeah and did you
02:21:45 that sort of thing yeah and did you learn in general about cladding systems and products for external wall applications act sorry at uh yeah at categorygadding uh i had some sort of knowledge
02:21:57 uh i had some sort of knowledge throughout my sort of career because i worked for ash and lacy as you're aware prior to that so yeah i had an idea of what these clubbing range screen facade systems were
02:22:06 were yeah i'm going to come to ashley lacy in just a moment so just focusing on the time you were at category cladding did you come to have any understanding about different fire properties of different cladding
02:22:19 fire properties of different cladding products such as acm mcm no i didn't i'm afraid were you expected in your role to have any understanding of fire safety
02:22:31 any understanding of fire safety performance i had a technical team uh or a person within the company that would have sort of given us guidance on that but no i was
02:22:42 given us guidance on that but no i was never trained in that side of things now if we go back to paragraph six of your statement um as you've just been telling us you also work for another company if we look now
02:22:54 work for another company if we look now in the last four lines you say prior to working for euroclad i was also a business development stroke sales manager for ash and lacy
02:23:05 stroke sales manager for ash and lacy limited
02:23:06 limited whose business also includes the supply of rain screen cladding systems do you see that there yes i can yeah now when did you start to work for ash and
02:23:17 when did you start to work for ash and lacy
02:23:19 lacy oh goodness um
02:23:23 i really can't recall off the top of my head uh i was there a few years so it had been a few years prior to me starting five or six years prior to me starting with category cladding
02:23:34 starting with category cladding um i'm not sure what date that would be i'm sorry i have to look that up that's fine when you were there did ash and lacy supply components of rain
02:23:45 and lacy supply components of rain screen
02:23:46 screen facades they did yes and did they supply whole cladding systems as well they had their own planning system yes yeah
02:23:57 yeah and when you were there did you have responsibility for particular products or lines of products with them uh yes there were three products there was an
02:24:07 was an ash's it product which would have been uh predominantly for the roof that was a a cladding aluminium cladding for the roof area and there was a flat
02:24:18 for the roof area and there was a flat to
02:24:18 to pitch conversion system uh that i also used
02:24:22 used uh or i was responsible for but not so much
02:24:26 much the uh the rain screen side we occasionally got involved but it was mainly
02:24:31 mainly for the uh for the flat to pitch conversion and standing seam roofs i see when you first gave that answer you said yes there were three products and and then we didn't quite catch what
02:24:43 and and then we didn't quite catch what you first
02:24:44 you first said there you said there was something product which was predominantly for the roof that was a cladding yeah that would have been a rain screen product which would be an acn product sorry a flat to [Â __Â ] conversion
02:24:55 product sorry a flat to [Â __Â ] conversion product
02:24:56 product which basically converted a flat roof into a pitched roof it was a still frame system and then there was the the covering of the system which would have been the uh the ash zip we called it which
02:25:09 the ash zip we called it which predominantly that's what i worked on mainly so that was an aluminium composite material product that was an aluminium steel product that would have been rolled out uh and zipped up uh to seal
02:25:22 uh and zipped up uh to seal sealed the system so it was a composite material it was a uh it was just a standing it was a steel material sorry aluminium material so it was made of solid aluminium aluminium yeah yeah
02:25:34 solid aluminium aluminium yeah yeah yeah and is it right that ash and lacy was also a fabricator of acm and mcm panels yes they were yeah yeah
02:25:45 mcm panels yes they were yeah yeah and were you aware that arconic supplied acm
02:25:48 acm to ash and lacy from time to time did you come across iconic not in my time no uh it was mainly a luca bond
02:25:56 luca bond and larson were the two main people uh that i dealt with didn't deal deal with iconic then yeah so you didn't come into contact with any iconic representative
02:26:08 with any iconic representative no i didn't know not what's working there
02:26:13 now if we go back to paragraph five of your statement sorry page five of your statement and look at paragraph 16 now
02:26:29 yes about six lines down there's a sentence beginning because and you say because i had previously worked in sales roles in businesses operating in this sector
02:26:41 operating in this sector i had good experience working with fabricators in particular now are you referring to your roles with ash and lacy and category cladding there when you say that
02:26:52 when you say that yes i would be yes yeah and by this sector when you're referring to this sector there operating in this sector do you mean the
02:27:03 operating in this sector do you mean the cladding sector i mean uh the the metal industry if you like the
02:27:09 like the uh the acm mcm industry yeah so uh cladding as well yeah and so you had particular experience of supplying
02:27:21 supplying two fabricators is that correct yes yeah now let's move on to talk about your role at arconic we know that you started as uk sales
02:27:32 we know that you started as uk sales manager
02:27:33 manager for the rayna bond range in may 2015. that's right isn't it that's correct how were you recruited for that role i was recruited through an agency um
02:27:46 i was recruited through an agency um a london agency uh and then i was interviewed in london uh by a uh a guy from france uh and that's how i was i i was employed
02:27:59 uh and that's how i was i i was employed do you know who it was from france who interviewed you for that post uh yes i do uh and i'm just sorry you have to bear with me names have sort of slipped my memory um
02:28:10 names have sort of slipped my memory um it would have been a guy um hr guy can we come back to that and i'll yeah okay yeah and were you asked about
02:28:22 yeah okay yeah and were you asked about your experience when you were interviewed with cladding products like mcm products to a certain extent yes yes were you asked about your understanding of the uk
02:28:34 asked about your understanding of the uk market for cladding products yes and were you asked anything about the regulation of the use of facade materials in the uk
02:28:45 of the use of facade materials in the uk no i can't i don't believe i was no
02:28:49 now if we look again at your statement at page two christopher wreck christopher was the the guy that interviewed me yes sorry it's just come back to me apologies
02:29:01 apologies and was it just him interviewing or was anyone else looped in from france it was just him we look at um your statement at page two
02:29:14 we look at um your statement at page two and i want to look now at the end of paragraph five
02:29:21 just picking it up three lines up from the end of that paragraph um you say because i was and remain resident in the uk i was and remain technically employed by
02:29:32 i was and remain technically employed by cornea
02:29:33 cornea uk limited although i received and continue to receive all of my instructions from and report to personnel at arconic
02:29:44 now that's right isn't it that was the arrangement absolutely correct now we heard about that arrangement um from from deborah french she also was
02:29:55 um from from deborah french she also was employed by cornea but she was furthering the business of arconic in the uk
02:30:00 the uk and in your case is it right that you were on the payroll of cornea that's correct yes just purely to pay the wage it was more convenient apparently to
02:30:12 it was more convenient apparently to have a uk-based payroll company so yes but is it right that you received all of your instructions from arconic all of them yes
02:30:24 and so being on the payroll as you've just said was just an arrangement with cornea and it was totally understood that you acted at all times for archonic yes absolutely yes were you paid a salary
02:30:36 absolutely yes were you paid a salary in that position as uk sales i was yes yes yeah and did you ever receive
02:30:44 receive any commission for the sales that you made
02:30:47 made i did later on in the employment yes when you say later on from what time period onwards did you receive a commission i guess it would have been about three
02:30:58 i guess it would have been about three or four years into my employment before i was
02:31:01 i was issued with any sort of commission of any type
02:31:06 i see so after the grenfell tower fire in 2017
02:31:11 in 2017 you would say uh it was actually before the fire sorry maybe i've got my left yeah it was before the fire uh there were two instances that i remember
02:31:20 remember uh it would have been paid on an annual sort of yearly basis uh i come away with some sort of commission for hitting a uh yearly target
02:31:31 for hitting a uh yearly target and how was that commission calculated what was the basis on which you got the commission it would have been uh through square meter ridge and uh profit margin
02:31:47 i see and and were you aware therefore of what the profit margins were on the products you were selling uh we would set a margin and we had to hit the margin and if we
02:31:58 and we had to hit the margin and if we hit the margin obviously we came away with some sort of commission structures so uh or some finance you know
02:32:05 know uh commission yeah yeah on top of your salary
02:32:08 salary on top of the salary yeah yeah and did you
02:32:12 you have specific sales targets you were expected to achieve yes i did yeah yeah
02:32:20 and how were those targets um worked out were they with reference to a particular products or particular quantities of products oh they would have been worked out for a
02:32:32 oh they would have been worked out for a square meter each uh how much square meters you would do in the in the month uh and how much uh you were selling the product at i'm not entirely sure how it's worked
02:32:43 i'm not entirely sure how it's worked out but they they worked it out that if you hit
02:32:46 you hit the the volume and the margin then you would uh
02:32:49 would uh you would come away with some sort of commission if you're on target for the year
02:32:53 year and they would pay you that at the end of the year if that makes sense yeah and we know that you were the uk sales manager for the reynabond product range yes
02:33:04 reynabond product range yes did you have sales targets for specific aspects of the reinaborn range or just for rayna bond in general there were two sides to run a bomb that
02:33:15 there were two sides to run a bomb that i i was
02:33:16 i i was working on uh one of them was a corporate identification uh cid which would have been uh the likes of uh supermarket stores uh cash showroom garages and also the
02:33:29 uh cash showroom garages and also the architectural side uh of the renault uh so they would have been two separate sort of things uh run along the side but you'd get paid your commission as uh as one
02:33:41 as one i see and within the architectural side was it
02:33:44 was it were your targets broken down to for example and we'll talk about it in a minute rayna bond pe versus raina bond fr products was it broken down in that way
02:33:55 broken down in that way no it was just rainer bond in general um the products in general yeah and were you ever paid was it just a commission arrangement were you ever
02:34:06 commission arrangement were you ever paid a bonus as well no i was never paid a bonus no just commission yeah now in terms of reporting lines up from you
02:34:16 you is it right that when you started your manager out at our comic was peter frolic that's correct yes and that was until 2016 is that right
02:34:27 and that was until 2016 is that right uh yeah i would not i'm 100 sure but it would have been around that time yes yes is it right that in 2016 you were then managed by leonel marcone for a short period of
02:34:39 leonel marcone for a short period of time
02:34:40 time that's correct yes yes and then he was replaced
02:34:44 replaced by veronica de fontaine that's correct yes what oversight of your work did your managers have they had pretty much total control in a
02:34:58 they had pretty much total control in a way whereas they would tell you what targets to hit and uh what margins we could sort of go to if you like
02:35:06 like we had a margin level uh that we could sell at
02:35:10 sell at but anything below a certain level we had to get authorization from whoever the manager was at that time and just to be clear we're all your managers based at merck's heim in france they
02:35:21 based at merck's heim in france they were yes
02:35:25 and did they regularly send instructions to you
02:35:28 to you as to what you were required to do in your role as uk sales manager um i would say regularly uh we had sort of quarterly meetings uh that would have been via skype
02:35:41 uh that would have been via skype uh and then we had sort of half yearly meetings that we would go to france and and discuss where we were
02:35:49 were uh but they were pretty much available on a daily basis uh but we'd catch up on a weekly report system
02:35:59 system yeah and your communications with them were they by email by telephone what how what was the pattern of communication with them on a normal
02:36:08 normal week we both telephone and email yeah mainly email yeah yeah were you ever instructed by merksheim to
02:36:19 merksheim to promote a particular product within the rayna bond range uh we were obviously there were new things that were coming onto the market they were developing new projects uh new uh sorry products
02:36:32 new projects uh new uh sorry products uh and yeah we were asked to promote uh various different products as they come on board
02:36:38 on board uh one of them would have been as you're probably aware the a2 product that didn't really take off uh but know in general as and when the products came to market we were asked to sort of promote them
02:36:49 sort of promote them yeah we're going to come back to some more detailed questions about the the a2 product um just to be clear is what you mean a rayna bond product that had achieved european
02:37:01 that had achieved european classification a2 is that correct made to product yes yes
02:37:08 now is it right that your direct manager reported to the director of sales and marketing
02:37:15 marketing within arconic i believe so yes he did and when you were with arconic that was alain flackon yes it was initially yes and then
02:37:26 yes it was initially yes and then in 2017 is it right that lionel marcone himself took on that more senior role that'd be correct around that time yes 2017 yes
02:37:40 and your role is this right in short was to generate sales for arconic in the uk yeah yeah well it was it's to generate sales and after sales so to make sure that you you made sure
02:37:52 so to make sure that you you made sure that the customers and the clients were happy
02:37:54 happy once the sale had been made so yeah it was a
02:37:57 was a that type of role yeah and you were specifically responsible for selling the rainer bond range that's right isn't it it was rainer bond yes we know that when
02:38:09 it was rainer bond yes we know that when deborah french was working for arconic there was another uk sales rep and mr robert campbell who was working on the rainer looks product products now was that the case when you
02:38:22 products now was that the case when you were
02:38:22 were uk sales rep it was uh yeah initially and then he was taken over by uh somebody new but yes he was there when i first started yes yeah so there was somebody separate who
02:38:34 yeah so there was somebody separate who had their eye on the rayna lux range on the right lux yeah solid element yeah and just
02:38:40 and just help us what's the difference between rayna bond and rayna lux railax is a solid aluminium so there is no core
02:38:47 no core and rena bond as you you're aware has a as a core
02:38:51 as a core yeah and were you also responsible for selling any other composite panels any other mcm metal composite material panels during that time
02:39:02 that time no it was just the uh the acm product and the aurelia dual product which would have been a solid uh two pieces of solid aluminium that were adhered together
02:39:13 that were adhered together so it was a solid one sheet of aluminium very similar to the renault uh but two solid pieces of material yeah so you weren't responsible at all for any zinc zcm
02:39:27 any zinc zcm we occasionally got asked for z cm yeah and zinc
02:39:30 and zinc aluminium that type of thing uh but it was very rare there wasn't an awful lot of
02:39:34 of call for it we went through a company if i remember rightly called vm zinc i see so if if anyone was asking for that did you just simply direct them to vm's inc yes yes at the end yeah yeah and do you
02:39:48 yes yes at the end yeah yeah and do you still work for iconic i do still work for iconic yes i've been on furlough for quite a while i've just come off but yes i'm still currently on their books and what's your current role i
02:39:59 and what's your current role i appreciate your own furlough but what's your
02:40:01 your type your job title uh i'm sorry it's a bit difficult at the moment because i i'm not sure what my title is
02:40:08 title is at the moment i haven't got a shall i say i haven't got a position at uh rena bond at the mo i'm sorry alcoa at the moment
02:40:18 this time last year before the pandemic took hold what what was your position within iconic uh it was uh very similar to what i'm doing at the moment but it was
02:40:29 what i'm doing at the moment but it was it was a lot of chasing uh queries uh and looking and talking to clients that were not uh wanted me to come to site and have a look at site with
02:40:41 look at site with varied issues they may have with the cladding uh but the sales role had sort of
02:40:46 of died off on the on the architectural side
02:40:49 side obviously due to the fire uh and i was most of my focus was on the corporate identification market i see but were you still in the position of
02:41:00 of sales manager yes i was yeah yeah yeah now i want to ask you some questions now about your training and your induction at our conic
02:41:11 training and your induction at our conic when you began working for them in may 2015. let's look at your witness statement at this point if we go to page five
02:41:21 and look again at paragraph 16
02:41:28 so you tell us i'm just going to read this with you um so you say after joining the business on the 1st of may 2015 my time was initially spent being introduced to work colleagues and
02:41:40 being introduced to work colleagues and undergoing an induction process which meant a number of visits to merksheim in france which included learning about the different products manufactured by arconic
02:41:51 arconic i do not remember any specific details of this training but it would have covered at a very high level
02:41:58 level some technical points including that the fire resistant version of the raynabon product
02:42:05 product was available because i had previously worked in sales roles in businesses operating in this sector i had good experience working with fabricators in particular and then you go on in practical terms
02:42:17 and then you go on in practical terms therefore this initial period which included peter froelich coming over to the uk and introducing me to existing customers of arconic meant that i started my active role as uk
02:42:29 that i started my active role as uk sales manager in approximately early july 2015 whilst that introductory period informed my understanding of the manufacturing process in mercsheim
02:42:40 process in mercsheim i had no actual involvement in relation to the manufacturer of any products nor did i have any knowledge or detail of the quality assurance checks or related procedures which are undertaken as part of those
02:42:51 which are undertaken as part of those manufacturing processes in mexico so you've told us a little bit there about your induction um and the period of time that you were inducted between may
02:43:02 inducted between may 15 and july 15. i just got some further questions about that we've already noted that there was this gap of a few months uh between deborah french leaving the uk
02:43:13 uh between deborah french leaving the uk sales manager role and you taking that role
02:43:15 role up and does that mean that there wasn't a formal handover from deborah french to you as part of that
02:43:23 that uh induction process that's correct there was there was no formal handover whatsoever as french has told us in her evidence
02:43:34 as french has told us in her evidence that she did meet you on a couple of occasions after you'd started in post she told us that she'd met you as part of a meeting
02:43:46 of a meeting to do with genius facades and in her role as taylor maxwell and she's also said that she met you to hand over some boxes of brochures to you is that correct
02:43:57 correct that's correct later on yeah in july august sort of time i would guess i see so this was later in 2015 that she met you to hand over the brochures i from what i can recall yes yes was
02:44:10 i from what i can recall yes yes was there any kind of informal handover from her if not a formal one when you met her
02:44:17 uh nothing that you know that was that stands out in my mind no there was nothing
02:44:23 nothing really formal it was quite informal literature was was out of date so the literature was uh disposed of yes you tell us that in your statement
02:44:34 yes you tell us that in your statement that she gave you some boxes of of brochures but you realize those are out of date so you dispose of them is that correct that's correct yes so did she tell you anything give you any tips about the role at all
02:44:48 any tips about the role at all i know to be fair i didn't ask her for any tips and i can't recall deborah ever giving me any tips um she was still in in an active cladding
02:44:59 she was still in in an active cladding sort of role working for taylor maxwell uh so you know i'd have had contact with her but she didn't necessarily give me any sort of tips
02:45:11 necessarily give me any sort of tips was there any reason why you didn't ask her questions about the role were you not curious to find out from her information about you know how it had gone for her and you know what the state of the uk market
02:45:23 you know what the state of the uk market was at that time i guess we had sort of conversations on that sort of level where we asked about the
02:45:29 the you know the what the industry's doing uh i was still working with deborah as you can imagine with with um genius facade system so we were still having conversations uh but no i didn't get in
02:45:40 conversations uh but no i didn't get in depth
02:45:41 depth conversation about what the market's doing or where we are uh my remit was to to bring on as much business
02:45:49 business and work with as many fabricators as
02:45:54 possible
02:45:57 you've you've told us a little bit about your induction at paragraph 16 and you've said that effectively that induction process went from may to july is that right around about july
02:46:09 is that right around about july time yes yes and was it a gradual induction process or did you have a kind of intensive period of time when you received training during that time
02:46:22 during that time from what i can remember it was a block training so i had a week and or four days in france uh with training various different sort of aspects
02:46:32 aspects uh and then i came back to france uh a few weeks later for some additional training so it would have been spread over a two-week three-week period they're about and just help us um that training
02:46:45 and just help us um that training particularly the training you had in france did that include any training on the technical aspects of acm and the rainerborn product range now i met the technical team i was
02:46:56 now i met the technical team i was introduced to all of the team in the technical team uh and reassured that you know that they were there for me every step of the way uh and you know it's only a phone call away if i need them
02:47:06 them so the technical were there for complete backup but no real technical uh training as such no who did you meet in that technical team
02:47:19 who did you meet in that technical team uh bear with me names are terrible uh it would have been uh claude vali uh and remy um sorry nicola remy they're the only two people i can
02:47:30 they're the only two people i can imagine there were four or five members at that time in the technical team or i should say four yeah four or five but over the two main main players and did they give you any form of technical presentation or
02:47:42 form of technical presentation or technical briefing on the products you were to sell uh no they'd go over the projects uh the products even and explain what they are what their purposes are uh but nothing in depth
02:47:53 purposes are uh but nothing in depth you know it was just what the product is did you receive any briefing from them about the fire performance of the products at that stage no
02:48:05 of the products at that stage no no whatsoever
02:48:11 if we can return to your witness statement at page two paragraph six
02:48:32 if we look at the very end of that paragraph i just want to look at that final sentence you say prior to joining iconic my knowledge of acm as a product was relatively limited and you've explained to us
02:48:43 explained to us this morning that you were mainly involved on the mcm side in your previous role at category cladding
02:48:50 cladding um can we just have a look at a document now this is inq two 3014264 four this is a document you might not have seen
02:49:01 might not have seen before it's um dated may 2015 we can see at the top 22 7th of may 2015
02:49:13 22 7th of may 2015 and what this appears to be is an email that contains some minutes of a meeting now it's sent from someone called vergine liked and it's sent to a number of
02:49:24 it's sent to a number of individuals including your boss peter froelich
02:49:28 froelich and others claude schmidt is on there claude verla is on there and the subject is weekly meeting 22nd of may 2015.
02:49:39 of may 2015. and what we see in the substance of the email
02:49:42 email we've got a hello please find below minutes of our meeting please feel free to add any comment to the report and we can see the attendees the initials of the attendees are there
02:49:54 initials of the attendees are there and we see cwe which we believe to be claude verla and he was the head of technical sales support team in france wasn't he
02:50:05 support team in france wasn't he yes do you believe he was yes yeah and this note is around the time that you started at arconic in may 2015 and
02:50:16 you started at arconic in may 2015 and if we can go down to page four of it
02:50:24 right at the bottom there under the initials cwe so this appears to be a part of the the meeting that claude verla was leading or
02:50:37 claude verla was leading or providing some information and if we look at the fourth bullet point under cwe it says their technical training
02:50:46 training vince already has very good technical knowledge
02:50:50 knowledge in the area of cladding now i just wanted to ask you about that um
02:50:57 um that indicates at least from mr verla's point of view that you came into the job with the good technical knowledge about cladding is that right i assume so yeah reading that yeah he
02:51:09 i assume so yeah reading that yeah he assumed that i had very good knowledge of cladding is that what you told him did you say i've got good technical knowledge of cladding and cladding products i would have done yes yeah
02:51:25 but is it right that when you say that your knowledge of acm as a product was limited
02:51:31 limited is that because at category cladding you'd focus mainly on mcm products that's correct yes when i say cladding it would have been a metal cladding not necessarily an aluminium
02:51:42 aluminium composite material but cladding yes so when you had your technical briefing from mr verla's team in france um were you able to ask questions about
02:51:54 um were you able to ask questions about the technical properties of acm products uh you know i knew uh the basics of acn products
02:52:03 products uh so yes to a certain extent and what would you say the basics when you're talking about the basics of acm products what do you mean by that i guess the the fabrication how they're
02:52:16 i guess the the fabrication how they're fabricated uh how they're formed uh and where they're sort of uh they're put within the building but that would be as far as it went
02:52:28 as far as it went in terms of what was covered just a bit bit more detail on this we've seen at paragraph 16 of your statement that you tell us that you're in
02:52:36 in induction covered technical points at a high level that's the phrase you've used were you told this were you told that acm was a composite cladding material
02:52:48 acm was a composite cladding material consisting of two thin sheets of aluminium bonded to a core yes were you told that one type of core was pe polyethylene
02:53:01 yes did you know that already before you work for orconic or were they telling you that during your technical briefing uh i i knew uh where they were telling
02:53:12 uh i i knew uh where they were telling me in the technical briefing that there were two
02:53:14 were two two main chords uh the polyethylene the pe and the fr the fire retardant uh but i didn't really understand what the two cores were at that point did they tell you during
02:53:26 at that point did they tell you during the briefing what the two cores were the difference between pe and fr cores one was fire retardant uh the p is a standard core that's how
02:53:37 uh the p is a standard core that's how it was put i see did they tell you anything about the fire property of the pe product specifically no i don't believe they they had they
02:53:48 no i don't believe they they had they felt the need to go or did in that case go down that road at that moment in time no why why don't you think they felt the need to to do that
02:53:59 need to to do that because i think saying to you they may have done that at a later date in my uh training uh but certainly when i first started with the company they weren't sort of bombarding me with too much technical fire
02:54:11 too much technical fire uh and uplifts and and loads and that type of thing it just didn't wasn't given to me early on
02:54:18 on i see and how much later did you start to receive more technical information i guess that would have been every time we had a a half yearly or yearly sales meet
02:54:28 meet uh the technical team would do a presentation uh certain things within the the materials
02:54:37 materials uh what they're developing what they're moving on and that type of thing so i would pick it up later on at various different sales meetings i guess i see okay
02:54:48 sales meetings i guess i see okay we'll come back to that um can we just look at your witness statement at this point
02:54:53 point um again if we go to page 11 and look at what you say at paragraph 32.1
02:55:07 so you say that unsurprisingly none of the acm product with a pe call was considered non-combustible or of limited combustibility
02:55:18 combustibility that would hardly be surprising in circumstances where the core is polyethylene indeed i would be surprised if anyone in the industry was unaware that polyethylene is combustible
02:55:31 that polyethylene is combustible now just breaking that down for a moment are you saying that it was well known in the construction industry that polyethylene was combustible
02:55:41 with that said that paragraph i would have
02:55:44 have said that later on in my employment that yeah for sure i would have known that pe uh was a polyethylene combustible how combustible i was unaware but i knew that it was
02:55:56 i was unaware but i knew that it was combustible of some type later on in my employment with uh arconic
02:56:02 arconic meaning a good few years down the line because it was all new to me the pe uh or the fr when i first started so i made that quite clear that we're sorry when we were talking about what i knew
02:56:14 when we were talking about what i knew early on initially when i first started my employment with the company they give me basic training although it was quite intense when it comes to product
02:56:23 product knowledge but it wasn't so intense with the fire
02:56:26 the fire uh the fire aspect or the wind up lift this would have been later on in my employment i would have realized that yeah
02:56:33 that yeah it was combustible i see so i think what you're saying is when you started to work at arconic that you didn't know that pe
02:56:44 that you didn't know that pe polyethylene was combustible is that your evidence yeah it was never mentioned
02:56:48 mentioned that that it was a standard core and that to me was just a standard core i took it as a standard sort of core whatever that meant but
02:57:00 sort of core whatever that meant but yeah
02:57:02 yeah you say it wasn't ever mentioned but did you in any event know from your previous experience or other experience that pe was combustible no i can honestly say i
02:57:13 was combustible no i can honestly say i didn't
02:57:14 didn't we i didn't work with pe in uh in any other
02:57:18 other uh with actually for instance it would have been
02:57:22 have been uh i guess an fr core because it would have been
02:57:25 have been a luca bond uh product uh looking back on it but no i didn't come across it before
02:57:31 before in any previous employment so if you didn't know that it was combustible with all the experience you had in the cladding industry why are you saying there that you're surprised
02:57:42 you're surprised if anyone in the industry was unaware of that fact
02:57:46 that fact as i said this later on a few years down the line
02:57:51 the line i'll be very surprised that the people that are using it on a daily basis were not aware of it it just doesn't make sense that you know if you you're ordering something and you're technically minded and you're a fabricator and you would
02:58:03 and you're a fabricator and you would know the difference knowing what i know now that they would know pe
02:58:09 know pe is a different core from an fr core and they'd know what the two differences are i see you've said that several times that later on you you would have been surprised if no
02:58:20 you you would have been surprised if no one had known um you're starting work for iconic in may
02:58:24 may 2015. when do you mean by later on so yeah i would say about a year or 18 months down the line of the employment when they get to talk to the the fabricators
02:58:36 to the the fabricators and the people that are using the product on a daily basis you know you learn an awful lot and uh yeah
02:58:43 yeah it would have been a good 18 months two years before i knew the complete difference between the two
02:58:54 were you told anything about the properties of polyethylene during your induction and your training no were you told anything about its fire
02:59:05 no were you told anything about its fire performance no that's nothing that would have come up
02:59:11 up so at that point even though you were selling the product for architectural use or about to start selling it for architectural use you didn't know that it was combustible and you weren't told that in your training is that correct
02:59:22 training is that correct that's correct mr chairman i think that's a a a good moment i'm in mid topic on training and induction
02:59:34 in mid topic on training and induction so i'll carry on after the break but i think it makes sense to pause there i think you're right i think we should stop there mr meekins we're going to have a break now so that we can all have some lunch please remember what i
02:59:45 have some lunch please remember what i said to you earlier about not talking to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it over the break yeah and we'll see you again at 2 o'clock please thank you thank you sir good thank you
02:59:57 thank you thank you sir good thank you see you then