Deborah French from Arconic gives evidence about the sale and marketing of Reynobond PE cladding panels used on Grenfell Tower.
00:00:05 welcome back everybody we're now ready to continue taking evidence from miss french uh miss french are you there yes i am thank you sir hello and can you see me and hear me well yes i can
00:00:17 well yes i can and you're ready to go on i hope yes good
00:00:20 good thank you then mr millett when you're ready yes thank you very much uh mr french uh can we please go back to the message that richard guitar sent at met 3053158 please
00:00:50 uh now uh at the bottom of that page page 157 we can just go back to page one five seven um third paragraph from the bottom and
00:01:02 um third paragraph from the bottom and we looked at this earlier on now this is a uh right this is my fault i've given you the wrong reference can we please look at met three zeros five 3053158
00:01:13 five 3053158 underscore p10 page 157
00:01:23 that's it thank you and if we could just look please at the third paragraph from the bottom again the perils can you see that yes
00:01:30 that yes uh again the perils of using cheap acm alternatives have been exposed as you are aware our standard core is the plus ffr mineral core achieving class b
00:01:39 class b s one d naught according to en 13501 part one
00:01:43 part one unlike other acm uh producers um now we've seen uh that he gives a warning here about the fire dangers of pe
00:01:54 the fire dangers of pe and against acm cheap acm alternatives and says that the a3 aluco bomb will offer a luca bond fr as standard
00:02:05 is it right that you didn't give yourself any such warning to your customers having seen this email no it's not right or it's right that you
00:02:16 no it's not right or it's right that you didn't
00:02:17 didn't no i didn't they didn't indeed your email
00:02:21 email of the 13th of may says that our colleague will continue to offer both p e corps and f r corp
00:02:28 corp that's right isn't it yes
00:02:33 did mr gita's email which you received and then and read and then passed on to claude verle among others did that not prompt you to re-examine the fire test classifications
00:02:44 the fire test classifications for each of the rhino bond products both pe and fr core in both rivet and cassette forms no as i've explained before i didn't
00:02:55 no as i've explained before i didn't have the technical knowledge to be able to do that and that would have been for other people to do and communicate to me do you know whether they examine the fire test classifications for those products
00:03:07 products i i'm not sure i don't know
00:03:11 now you sent the email of the 13th of may 2013 as you told us out to a selection of fabricators certainly simcoe and cep and probably others um in the knowledge
00:03:23 and probably others um in the knowledge that acm and the pe corps had been involved
00:03:25 involved in the tower fire in dubai that's right isn't it
00:03:28 isn't it that's the background but is it right that you also then continued thereafter to supply pe called acm automatically as standard in the uk
00:03:40 standard in the uk yes was that a safe practice did you think
00:03:44 think again it would have been for others to tell me that if that hadn't been the case that wasn't i didn't have the technical background to be able to make that decision one way or another no uh maybe you didn't but i'm
00:03:56 no uh maybe you didn't but i'm interested in what you thought at the time
00:03:57 time at the time did you think to yourself that this was a safe practice or did you think to yourself in light of what you knew about the uae fire this was no longer a safe
00:04:08 uae fire this was no longer a safe practice
00:04:10 practice um i i must have started starting to have some
00:04:13 have some questions in my mind but again i would have been i would have been taking guidance from merck's time and they and they would have been guiding me as to what was or wasn't correct
00:04:23 correct on what you knew from the uae fire the subject of mr gita's email and indeed what you had already alerted mr verlet to in the previous week why did you continue to offer uh
00:04:36 why did you continue to offer uh rainer bond 55 pe core as a standard in the uk market without at least some kind of warning that
00:04:43 that about its fire performance i would have needed to have had a specific um guidance from merkstein to do any different
00:04:51 different did you seek any such specific guidance from merkheim i don't recall doing so you don't recall doing so does that mean you you don't think you did so to the best of your recollection i can't yeah i can't i can't recall
00:05:05 why did you not do so i don't know as i say i wouldn't have had the knowledge or the experience to have been able to challenge it in that way
00:05:15 way and would have been waiting for guidance from merkstein if they'd seen it was necessary
00:05:21 well just help me you might have said to merch time should we still be offering pe a standard
00:05:30 standard without expressing a view either way but at least prompting them to consider the question and i don't recall whether i did or didn't sir
00:05:41 didn't sir thank you did you have any discussion at all with
00:05:46 all with those at work time about whether you should continue to offer pe to the uk market as standard i don't recall
00:05:55 does that mean you recall that you didn't or you don't recall one way or don't
00:05:58 don't call whether i did right
00:06:02 is it right to say that you at least were now
00:06:05 were now on notice aware of the dangers of pe clowning panels on high-rise buildings from this point onwards
00:06:14 it was certainly more being discussed more and more yes well my question was i'll repeat it because i'm not sure i've quite quite got an answer to it but my question was is it right that you at least were on notice of
00:06:26 least were on notice of aware of the dangers of pe cladding panels on high-rise buildings from this point onwards yes
00:06:36 and yet you continue to deal with cep in respect of the grenfell tower project specifically uh in the knowledge of those dangers without
00:06:45 without alerting them to those dangers and again i would say that the documentation we were
00:06:53 we were was we were still covered with the bba and i would have been waiting for any further guidance from merkstein if that was changing did you have a discussion with mr blades of cep
00:07:04 of cep about the dangers of using pe cladding on high-rise buildings whether grenfell tower or not no i don't recall doing so no
00:07:18 given that you knew grenfell tower was a high-rise residential building as we've seen
00:07:27 why did you not seek to take any steps even by asking those at merck's time to make sure that the pe products you were selling in respect to that building
00:07:38 were selling in respect to that building were suitable for it
00:07:41 i don't know now in the summer of 2013 i think you you tell us that you
00:07:52 i think you you tell us that you understood that you lost the sale to the grenfell tower project believe so and that one of the reasons if not the reason was that zcm which was then being
00:08:03 reason was that zcm which was then being suggested was too expensive uh i believe so
00:08:09 uh and you say in your statement i don't need to go to it it's paragraph 88.2.6 or second statement you say that following that sales
00:08:20 you say that following that sales meeting
00:08:21 meeting uh in june 2013 we'd be looking at you decided to stop proactively promoting zcm is that correct yes
00:08:34 is that correct yes if we go to your first witness statement to page five please first witness statement page five you say that you just look at that
00:08:44 yeah you say that you created a new crm program
00:08:48 program entry this is a paragraph 16. you see yeah we did we've looked at that 18th of october crm entry uh before
00:09:00 crm entry uh before uh and you say at the bottom of that paragraph
00:09:03 paragraph um that uh the product identified was acm
00:09:07 acm rb painted this would be pe or fr and zcm rb this was fr
00:09:16 yes is it right to say given that that's october
00:09:20 october so after the june meeting we've been talking about that although you had stopped proactively selling zcm you would still you would still sell zcm if the customer asked for it perhaps
00:09:35 zcm if the customer asked for it perhaps yes right now we saw earlier that you afforded a specification in january 2013 which came from leadpeter we looked at that before uh and just for your or for our
00:09:47 uh and just for your or for our reference that's uh at cep3048 975 and 48978 we don't need to turn to that we've looked at it before but in that context can we go to the
00:10:00 but in that context can we go to the discussions you had with mr blades in early january 2014 now so we're on the grenfell tower project early 2014.
00:10:11 early 2014. can we look please at cep3050721
00:10:24 here is mr blades emailing you on the 7th of
00:10:27 7th of january 2014 subject grenfell tower attachments grenfell tower spec pdf and the text says hi devs please see the attached brain screen spec roughly above could you please advise rates for rayner
00:10:39 could you please advise rates for rayner bond accordingly and you can see as i've shown you that he attaches a document which he describes as the rain screen spec can we look at that please it's at
00:10:51 cep3050722
00:10:55 now this is part h92
00:11:02 part h92 or section h92 as you can see there on the screen of the studio e nbs specification for the grenfell tower project and this
00:11:13 for the grenfell tower project and this part h92 is concerned with the rain screen cladding as you can see there's not much else there's nothing else on the page in front of you um if you go to page three
00:11:24 um if you go to page three of this document
00:11:31 here you can see the detailed specification in respect of the rain screen planning for grenfell tower under section 120
00:11:42 grenfell tower under section 120 now is it right that when you receive this email from mr blaze on the 7th of january 2014 you open the attachment i i don't recall opening it i see no
00:11:55 i i don't recall opening it i see no reason why i wouldn't have done and do you see any reason why you wouldn't having opened it uh not have read the uh attachment and this part in particular there's no reason why i wouldn't have
00:12:07 there's no reason why i wouldn't have read it but again it wouldn't have meant an awful lot to me well let's have a look at it you can see that section 120 um three bullet points down uh
00:12:18 um three bullet points down uh you can see there there's a rain screen panel there to be manufactured you see by kme architectural solutions do you see that yes and uh somewhere below that just before the next bullet point
00:12:30 before the next bullet point it says product reference and then in capitals proteus hr honeycomb rain screen panel did you see that at the time do you remember i don't recall seeing that at the time
00:12:40 the time there's no reason you're sitting there today why you wouldn't have done this there
00:12:44 there no i don't recall seeing it at the time right
00:12:48 right i don't remember seeing it at the time no but looking back on it at the time having been sent a document of this nature in respect of this project um as a matter of your practice would you have opened it and studied it
00:12:59 you have opened it and studied it carefully
00:13:00 carefully i wouldn't have necessarily studied all elements of it no because it wasn't particularly relevant to what i was doing so no i wouldn't have done why was it not particularly relevant to what you were doing
00:13:12 what you were doing because i would have had no interest in whether there was a kme within the specification or not i wouldn't have i wouldn't have particularly looked at those details that wasn't relevant to to renabon so i wouldn't have
00:13:24 to renabon so i wouldn't have particularly looked at it why do you think
00:13:26 think why did you think mr blades were sending you this document for other uh renault bond elements within it i guess right well let's look at those we go back to page two
00:13:37 back to page two the bottom of the page we can see section 11
00:13:44 page two
00:13:47 at the bottom of the page section 11 information to be provided with tender in addition to the cladding specified in the below clauses 120 and 123 submit comparative supply and install costs per
00:13:58 comparative supply and install costs per square meter of the whole planning system for the following alternative materials radio bomb duragloss 5000 and there are a number of bullet points under that metallic standard and non-standard satin gloss
00:14:09 gloss chameleon anodized look satin gloss and then a luca bond uh sakura spectral secure 917 and zinc core sink composite polymer panel by bo zinc
00:14:21 zinc um now clearly the rainer bonds duragloss 5000 is our conics product isn't it
00:14:27 isn't it yes and a leuco bond there is a3's product
00:14:31 product that's right and am i writing thinking that the zinc product quartz zinc composite panel is our conics zcm product
00:14:38 product yes right so that would that mean that you could supply it if that was what was asked for yes and although that you had personally decided you weren't proactively going to
00:14:49 decided you weren't proactively going to be selling zcm if in fact you were asked to quote for zio as per this specification you would do that yes let's go to cep50244 please
00:15:07 this is an email from jeff blades to you on the uh 7th of january at the bottom of the page i'll just show you i've shown you that uh
00:15:20 i've shown you that uh and yet and he asked you to advise rates for renault bond and if we go back up the page we see your response this is the 15th of january so about a
00:15:31 this is the 15th of january so about a week later from you to jeff blade's copy to others i'll copy to neil wilson at cep and also to gwen alvarado at our conic inside sales and you say read grandfather hi jeff just to confirm
00:15:43 read grandfather hi jeff just to confirm the exceptionally good rates i quoted you for grenfell towers double exclamation mark and then you set out the spec and a number of different colors and quantity
00:15:54 quantity and you give them a price of 28 pounds per square meter and then you say at the bottom hope this is okay to start the bidding with harley's
00:16:02 harley's i'm sure you or neil will be back on the phone if you need any other detailed straight reductions with a little non-smiley face now have we shown you that can we look at your first witness statement
00:16:14 at your first witness statement please at page five
00:16:19 i'd like to look with your paragraph 17 where you cover this exchange um and you say
00:16:29 in that statement in that paragraph uh uh in the third line down in addition the price of 28 pounds per square meter could have related to a
00:16:40 square meter could have related to a competitive price for fr or a relatively high price for pe uh you go on to say cep would have recognized that this was not a competitive price
00:16:53 a competitive price not a competitive quote for pe a more usual price for pe would be 22 pounds to 24 pounds per square meter in my email dated 15th of january 2014 i mentioned a good price for the product
00:17:04 i mentioned a good price for the product and this indicates to me that the 28 pounds
00:17:06 pounds per square meter was really competitive and then if you skip down to the very bottom of the page you say there i do not have available to me a copy of the rain screen specification that
00:17:17 the rain screen specification that appears to have been forwarded by jeff blades
00:17:20 blades of cep on the 7th of january 2014 and therefore cannot say whether p e or fr was specifically requested now as i've shown you the specification
00:17:31 now as i've shown you the specification that you were sent uh and we can see that it was silent as to the core uh of the rayner bond acm we can look at it again if you like but do you recall that it was silent on that
00:17:42 do you recall that it was silent on that subject i do yes yes your email uh is also your email back to jeff blades is also silent on what core the 28 pounds per square meter refers to
00:17:58 uh that's right isn't it you didn't you didn't identify whether the 28 pounds per square meter was for fr core or pe core no i didn't
00:18:09 was for fr core or pe core no i didn't now you've told us that you would automatically quote for rayna bond pe core
00:18:14 core unless the customer asked something else he told us that yesterday um on that basis do you think that this is a
00:18:22 is a did you intend that this was a quotation for pe
00:18:26 for pe corps
00:18:29 corps i don't recall what um what it would have been originally raised for but as standard it would have been pe but i don't recall it's not on the deep it's not on there and i don't recall
00:18:41 it's not on there and i don't recall right
00:18:44 although as you say a more usual price for pe would be 22 pounds to 24 pounds per square meter was this a relatively high price in fact for pe
00:18:54 for pe knowing that jeff blades possibly harley might negotiate it down if it was for a pe call then it was um it was a
00:19:03 it was a on the higher side yes so it wasn't a really competitive price at all it was a reasonably topic price and for pe which you
00:19:10 you thought they might knock down is that a fair way of looking at it that's possibly my thinking yes yes now we've seen no evidence that there were any discussions at all between you and cp and you and
00:19:23 and cp and you and harley about the call can we take it well first of all is that right just put it to you square is that correct
00:19:31 correct yeah i wouldn't i don't recall any discussions about the call and is it right that therefore at all times you assume that iconic you in fact would be supplying pe core for the grenfell tower project
00:19:43 for the grenfell tower project yes and we've seen nothing to suggest that either cep or harley asked for fr or that you volunteered fr
00:19:54 for fr or that you volunteered fr as the core material for render 155 for the grenfell tower project is that correct yes i don't recall any conversations about the call you say you don't recall any
00:20:06 you say you don't recall any conversations about the court i don't recall conversations about the call
00:20:15 and is it right that you were you were continually continuing to offer pe core as standard and as we see here in respect of the grenfell tower project notwithstanding
00:20:27 tower project notwithstanding the dangers that the fire in the uae had shown you were present in the use of pe core on tall buildings
00:20:39 tall buildings yes i was is there a reason why you didn't alert jeff blades or harley when quoting for rene bond 55 pe for grenfell
00:20:50 for rene bond 55 pe for grenfell about those dangers as i've explained before
00:20:54 before it unless i was getting a specific instruction from merkstein to do differently than i would have carried on as i was
00:21:00 as i was even though you knew use of renabon 55pe core might present a risk to life
00:21:08 to life and safety so i didn't have the technical background to be able to make those decisions that i would have been led by merck's time as to whether the product was still suitable for the use
00:21:20 suitable for the use giving a warning that the use of a pe panel on a tall building was not a technical piece of advice was it
00:21:30 it it was common sense well i didn't pass that
00:21:34 that that information on no my question really is why not i don't i can't answer that question i don't know were you told not to no i don't believe
00:21:47 were you told not to no i don't believe i was
00:21:53 now i want to i'm sorry to jump around in the chronology but i want to take a step back just a few months into late 2013 and look at what the testing position actually was
00:22:04 position actually was at the time in relation to these panels do you know did you know at the time i should say that arconic had done some further european fire tests
00:22:15 european fire tests on pe called reno bond in the november of 2013
00:22:20 of 2013 indeed at the very time that the nbs specification was being put together i don't believe i do recall that is is that something that you would have been expected to have known
00:22:33 expected to have known again not unless it was relative to uh the
00:22:37 the information that we were providing for the for the uk then no there was no reason for them to tell me
00:22:43 tell me can we look at the verle exhibits at met3053158 underscore p 0 2 page 38
00:22:56 this is part two page 38 of the verlay exhibit
00:23:01 exhibit now this isn't an email chain uh and i should tell you straight away that you weren't copied in on this email at the time
00:23:12 copied in on this email at the time uh uh uh just looking at it it's in yellow highlight because those words are translations from the french the originals are in french
00:23:25 and just looking at the uh the subject matter
00:23:29 matter and this and this is communication between philly at alcoa and benoit forest at cstb do you think you might have seen these emails at the time about testing
00:23:41 emails at the time about testing no i don't think so now i'm going to ask you not about the document but about the content in general and see what you know about it can we please have the bottom of page 38
00:23:52 can we please have the bottom of page 38 and the top of page 39 up together bottom of page 38 uh is the email from benoit forest of cstb to philip vonton at alcoa
00:24:05 of cstb to philip vonton at alcoa and he starts hello mr vontrol the first sbi tests on the product renault bond pe have been completed and if we switch to the top of page
00:24:16 the top of page 30 39 you can see that now on the right hand side of the screen thank you um you could see sbi test that's uh well did you know sbi stands
00:24:27 that's uh well did you know sbi stands for single burning item no well you can see that there's the result of the single burning item test uh for p e uh and this is on the riveted system as you can see in the box on the
00:24:38 system as you can see in the box on the left hand side behavior c s two d naught on a test see that yes i can uh so to be clear at this time november 13
00:24:52 so to be clear at this time november 13 al uh our colleague are being told by the cstb
00:24:56 the cstb uh that in a euro test fire sorry in a euro fire test uh riveted system renault on pe he has achieved a class c and then if we
00:25:07 c and then if we uh look at the second table down that is in relation to a test done on raynaud pe cassette system and underneath that you can see in the well next to that
00:25:18 well next to that you can see within the box stopping the test at 800 seconds out of 1260 seconds for widespread ignition
00:25:25 ignition best possible classification e ignition test
00:25:29 test then it goes on following these results can you tell me what you want to do you have the possibility to continue with the ignition test in order to envisage an e-classification for both systems
00:25:39 systems or to continue with sbi but only in order to obtain a c classification for the riveted system since cassette does not pass lastly you can also decide to stop we remain at your disposal for any further information and await your
00:25:51 further information and await your decision
00:25:52 decision now i've shown you that it's contemporaneous material from the time my question for you miss miss french is did anybody tell you at the time that rainer bond pe in rivet form had been tested in november 2013 and
00:26:04 been tested in november 2013 and achieved a euro class c
00:26:09 i don't recall it at the time but there have i have been shown some emails since i think that that we were sent but i don't know where i can't remember the date that that came to us right uh
00:26:21 that came to us right uh do you remember being told at the time that the reyno bond pd and cassette form had been tested and had got a euro class e no i don't did anybody tell you that the tests on
00:26:32 did anybody tell you that the tests on cassette have been stopped again in relation to the random one cassette
00:26:37 cassette fire spread reasons no i don't so is it right that at the time you were quoting reyna bond p e raybond 55pe
00:26:48 were quoting reyna bond p e raybond 55pe for use on the grenfell tower project you were ignorant of the results of these tests i've just shown you yes are you able to explain
00:26:59 yes are you able to explain sitting there how it is that you were not made aware of these results i can't no i can't begin to you can't begin to
00:27:09 begin to is are you surprised having been shown these results that you were not made aware of them oh yes i am
00:27:17 yes i am who who would you have expected to have told you about um that would have obviously come from merkstein it would have been up to people within merkstein as to who that
00:27:28 people within merkstein as to who that would have filtered through from it would have either been from peter or possibly even even higher up or uh claude verli's team right could have been a number of them
00:27:43 let's move then on the same topic into early 2014 and we start with uh a cstb
00:27:54 uh a cstb certificate in january of that year can we please go to claude verlais exhibit for page 35 135 and this is at met3053158
00:28:05 met3053158 underscore p04 page 135.
00:28:18 this is a cstb reaction to fire classification report ra 13 0 triple three under em5
00:28:29 part 13501.1 and a1 2013 and you can see that it relates to rhino bond 55 pe you look down the screen
00:28:40 you look down the screen and it's described as a composite panel with polyethylene core and if you go to the very bottom of the page you can
00:28:51 to the very bottom of the page you can see the date 31st of january 2014.
00:28:56 and if you go to the next page page 136
00:29:02 under product description you can see that it is a composite panel etc and then underneath that systems do you see it says riveted or cassette
00:29:14 cassette you see that yes and if we go down to the next page page 137 please we can see the classification in the box e you see that yes and so
00:29:27 e you see that yes and so this certificate says that in both fixing methods rivet or cassette reynabond pe is class e in the european regime
00:29:35 regime did anybody tell you you remember in or off just after the end of january 2014
00:29:42 2014 that reyna bond pe in either fixing variant rivet orcassette had achieved a class e in the european fire classification regime um i i believe that i have seen
00:29:56 regime um i i believe that i have seen that document but i think it's been since the
00:29:59 since the uh obviously going through this process with
00:30:02 with uh with the inquiry that i've seen them i can't remember what date it was to be fair to you you're going to come to a document which may jog your recollection a little bit more closely or accurately can we go to
00:30:16 closely or accurately can we go to met3053158 underscore p04 page 134 please
00:30:23 please there's three pages back in this email exhibit sorry exhibit run emails here is an email from claude vale
00:30:37 from claude vale to raf leased commercial extern and raf lisa commercial antenna and you told us yesterday that you would have received emails
00:30:48 have received emails on the extern list just to double confirm that that's correct isn't it yes i believe so it's dated the 3rd of february 2014. it's an american dating there let's not
00:30:59 it's an american dating there let's not worry about that and it has two attachments to it uh one in anglais and one not they're both the same document one is a
00:31:10 they're both the same document one is a translation and it says dear colleagues please finding close the new fire reaction test report for rayner bond architecture pe in accordance with en 13501 norm
00:31:23 in accordance with en 13501 norm the fire achieved classification is e and that's all in bold in the email the previous b class report done for renewable pe and riveted system can no more be used from now
00:31:34 used from now indeed this new report cancels all the previous reports i stay at your disposal if you have any further questions
00:31:44 do you recall receiving this email mrs french
00:31:47 french uh i don't recall receiving it but i do recognise it having gone through the process that we're going through currently can you confirm that you would have read it at the time you received it
00:31:58 it at the time you received it yes i mean if i was on that then yes i would have done right uh who else would have been included on the group email rf least commercial would uh would peter froelich have been
00:32:09 would uh would peter froelich have been on that list uh my understanding is that all external people were on that list what about alain flackon would he have been on that list or either of those
00:32:20 been on that list or either of those lists
00:32:20 lists i i don't know without without checking i couldn't answer that right now in your second witness statement you you address this email i'd like to look with you at what you say about it
00:32:31 say about it can we look at it at page 13 second witness statement page 13 paragraph 48.2 and that paragraph you say i have seen an email dated third of february
00:32:44 email dated third of february 2014 to the iconic sales distribution list
00:32:48 list this email is from claude verlais which attached the european classification report relating to renamon pe dated 31st january 2014. i can see from looking at the report now that it
00:33:00 from looking at the report now that it related to the use of radio bond in both rivet and cassette systems and the overall classification given is e
00:33:07 e in the covering email claude notes we've seen it the new fire test report for renewable architecture pe in accordance with the en 13501 norm the fire achieved
00:33:18 en 13501 norm the fire achieved classification is e the previous b class report done for renamon p e and riveted system can no more be used from now
00:33:24 now let me go on to say a copy of this email it's attached etc and then you say this i do not recall seeing this email or having any discussions about it at the time and i'm not sure i would have appreciated its relevance to sales in
00:33:37 appreciated its relevance to sales in the uk
00:33:38 the uk because i understood well i understand i understand that the relevant classification for renabond in the uk was class not national class naught looking at the
00:33:52 national class naught looking at the name of the distribution list to which that email was sent i think it likely that i did receive it at the time i did not recall ever being specifically asked to send or highlight this report to customers
00:34:04 to customers if a customer had asked me for such a report
00:34:07 report over the page then i would have obtained it obtained a copy from the technical sales support team and provided it see for example paragraph 48.3 below i cannot recall sending a copy of any
00:34:19 i cannot recall sending a copy of any classification reports for rayner bond either those dates 31st january 2014 or any others to cep or any of the companies involved in the refurbishment of grenfell tower
00:34:31 just summarizing what you're saying there it's to see him see what you accept do you accept that you did receive the email yes well again i can't confirm that definitely but yes i would
00:34:42 definitely but yes i would likely be on that distribution list it looks at you as if you didn't have any discussions uh with anybody within arconic about it is that right i believe so it looks as if you didn't
00:34:56 i believe so it looks as if you didn't do anything with it either such as forwarding it on to anybody is that right yes i believe so do you think you opened the attachment
00:35:08 uh i can't recall or perhaps uh asked the technical sales support team to send the attachment to you i don't recall when you say
00:35:21 i don't recall when you say perhaps we should have your statement back up there please
00:35:26 when you say
00:35:32 uh you're you're not sure you would have appreciated this relevance for sales in the uk
00:35:38 the uk as you do and i'm afraid it's the previous page you say you say there are seven lines up i'm not sure i would appreciate it as relevance
00:35:49 sure i would appreciate it as relevance to sales in the uk would you say that was that because you didn't know that european testing classification was recognized in the uk
00:36:00 classification was recognized in the uk as i've said previously my my my understanding was that providing the information coming from merckstein was to
00:36:11 to continue uh using the bba then that's what i was continuing to use right i'm just trying to get to the bottom of what you mean here when you say you weren't sure you would have appreciated its relevance
00:36:23 you would have appreciated its relevance to sales in the uk
00:36:28 is it that you didn't appreciate its relevance because you you thought it was relevant but because there was class naught for this product the downgrading of the
00:36:39 for this product the downgrading of the euro class didn't matter yeah i don't think i've fully appreciated the different testing regimes between how the bba would be
00:36:51 regimes between how the bba would be taking information and issuing a certificate or whether how much relevance that had with the european ones right because it only referred to the european i
00:37:03 referred to the european i i wouldn't have necessarily seen that it was relevant looking at what you say here in your statement
00:37:11 statement i'm not sure i would have appreciated its relevance to sales in the uk because i understand that the relevant classification for raina bond in the uk was
00:37:18 was at national class north are you saying that you essentially ignored the email that claude verle was sending you about euro class b being downgraded to e because
00:37:32 being downgraded to e because you thought that in the uk the only thing that mattered was national class naught
00:37:37 naught yes which was the bba document i see now we've seen the bba document the bba certificate
00:37:49 the bba document the bba certificate says not only uh that standard pe renewable 55 may be regarded as class north but it also
00:38:00 also stated that rainer bond pe had euro class b we saw that yesterday yes yes when you received this email did
00:38:13 yes yes when you received this email did it not occur to you that the bba certificate did present euro tests as relevant to the uk market because
00:38:24 the uk market because it formed the basis on which it was stating
00:38:27 stating that the product may be regarded as having class naught no it didn't when you saw this email did it not occur to you that although
00:38:38 did it not occur to you that although the bba certificate from 2008 said that standard pe had a euro class b that certificate could no longer be relied on
00:38:49 relied on because it occurred to me why is that i don't know i can't answer that it didn't occur to me if the one thing that you were relying on was the bba certificate
00:39:03 on was the bba certificate i'd like to understand why it is that you didn't at that stage go back to it and ask yourself given that you'd receive this email whether the bba certificate still spoke
00:39:14 whether the bba certificate still spoke the truth
00:39:15 the truth so that you could use it in your sales or whether in fact because reinaborn pe had now had now received a euro e-class and not a b class it could no longer be relied on i don't know i don't know
00:39:29 i don't know i don't know did you do anything in response to this email i can't i can't remember you say at the bottom of the
00:39:37 of the page in the statement that we've just been looking at that you don't recall ever being specifically asked to send or highlight this report to customers was it not reasonably clear to you at
00:39:49 was it not reasonably clear to you at the time when you received this information from mr verde that it was being sent to you for you to do something with
00:39:58 at the time no i didn't think it was relevant to to the uk it wasn't very specific in what it was asking uh asking to do did you check with mr vale or your line
00:40:10 did you check with mr vale or your line manager
00:40:11 manager whether you should do anything as a result of being given this information i don't remember did you check and ask them whether it applied to you i don't remember did you take just
00:40:23 i don't remember did you take just simply take it on yourself to ignore it without seeking any advice or instruction or guidance or help from those senior to you at arconic i yeah i don't recall what i what action i took at the time well do
00:40:36 what action i took at the time well do you wanna
00:40:37 you wanna on the look of it you just sat on it is that right yeah i don't recall what what
00:40:43 what action i did or didn't take with it now at this point this is early february 2014 you've been sent the grenfell tower nbs spec
00:40:54 spec and you've quoted uh before reyna bond pe55
00:40:59 pe55 you you know from what you had learned in the spring of 2013 about the dangers of the use of pe called rain screen panels on high buildings and you are now being
00:41:12 high buildings and you are now being told
00:41:13 told uh that the uh the the pe rivet orca set was no longer class b but class e surely
00:41:25 e surely though putting those two facts together this would have indicated to you that not all was well with continuing to use reynabond 55pe
00:41:36 to use reynabond 55pe weather rivet orca set on a high-rise building
00:41:40 building i do i do i honestly can't recall having made those pulling that information together in the way that you're explaining it
00:41:52 did you address your mind to how it could be
00:41:56 could be that rainer bond pe could continue to have a class naught standing
00:42:02 standing if you like in circumstances where it had tested only to class e in the euro system
00:42:10 system and was no longer class b no i i just didn't have enough knowledge about it and put it together is the reality that you kept this to yourself because you realized that it would
00:42:22 because you realized that it would damage your sales and in fact damage your market sufficiently if it became known that reynabon 55pe with a pe call whether rivet or cassette
00:42:33 with a pe call whether rivet or cassette was class e no absolutely not and therefore couldn't be used above 18 meters no absolutely not say absolutely not why are you so
00:42:44 say absolutely not why are you so convinced because well we didn't have a big enough market for it to be that damaging to to be honest it wasn't we didn't sell huge amounts and that certainly most definitely would not have been doing
00:42:55 definitely would not have been doing that for that reason
00:43:00 now we saw with your may 2013 email about the uae fires that it was entirely possible for you to send
00:43:08 send important messages about fire safety in relation to products you were selling to your key fabricators saw that didn't we yes
00:43:19 saw that didn't we yes why did you not send a similar message to a similar group of fabricators with whom you routinely worked that reynabon 55pe had been downgraded
00:43:31 that reynabon 55pe had been downgraded from class b to class e
00:43:34 i don't know again i i can only think it was because i didn't associate it as being relevant in terms of the bba why did you not simply send them the
00:43:46 why did you not simply send them the information and leave it for them to decide what to do with it or what questions to ask about it i i can't answer that question i don't know
00:43:56 know in order not to send it on did you make a positive decision not to send it on to customers
00:44:02 customers no i wouldn't have done that i i generally don't think as i say i i don't know why i didn't you don't know why you didn't i don't know what i did with it i don't know
00:44:13 know what i did with it i don't know why if i didn't i don't know why i wouldn't have done it right would you see the reason you've given your statement is the reason you didn't do it is because you didn't think that european classes had anything to do with the uk market and that it had a national class naught
00:44:25 and that it had a national class naught is that not the reason or is there another reason yeah i've already said that is the reason for not sending it out and i wouldn't have i wouldn't have seen the relevance to the bba document doesn't that tell us
00:44:38 to the bba document doesn't that tell us that you actually made a positive decision
00:44:40 decision not to send this certificate out because you mistakenly thought there was positively thought that there was no uh relevance uh to to the uk market and that the only
00:44:53 uh to to the uk market and that the only thing that mattered with class naught if that was the case how could you be so confident about that given your lack of technical
00:45:00 technical expertise i can't answer that i don't know so it seems that you made this decision based on a technical assumption namely that the
00:45:11 a technical assumption namely that the only thing that mattered was class not
00:45:15 yeah i don't know so my question again if you really had no no technical expertise at all and had no feel or understanding of the
00:45:26 and had no feel or understanding of the relevance
00:45:27 relevance of the european classifications in the uk market why not just send these send this report to your customers
00:45:34 customers your fabricators and that then decide what to do with it i i don't know i can't answer that i suggest
00:45:41 suggest you took a positive decision to keep your problem no i'm not i'm not i won't no i'm not going to say yes i did that because i i don't recall doing it and i don't that's not
00:45:52 don't that's not not something i would do but it is something you did do because you didn't send it to but i didn't i'm not necessarily agreeing that i would have made a positive decision not to send
00:46:04 made a positive decision not to send that
00:46:04 that there is i don't know why i didn't but it wouldn't have been for that reason that's not the way that i work right well let me let's discount one
00:46:15 right well let me let's discount one thing can we discount that you didn't you didn't uh fail to send this document to them by accident you didn't just forget about it can we discount that yes right so therefore when you didn't
00:46:28 yes right so therefore when you didn't send it on to customers you must have made a positive decision not to do so again i can't recall why i wouldn't have sent it on whether that was a positive decision
00:46:39 decision for whatever reasons for not sending it on i don't know why i didn't send it on
00:46:46 even though this document you must have written well you must have realized that this document had significant ramifications consequences in terms of the fire safety of the material you were
00:46:58 the fire safety of the material you were selling
00:47:00 selling again i'm not sure that i fully understood that at the time no well what okay what did a downgrading from class b to class e mean to you at the time
00:47:12 i i wouldn't i don't know i can't recall what it would have mean i didn't have enough knowledge of all the clients and the clarifications and uh to have been able to make that call
00:47:22 call nonetheless it would surely would have meant to you that there was a downgrade and it was less safe than being than previously thought is that not is that not the obvious takeaway from what yeah i'm telling you yeah and given that very
00:47:34 i'm telling you yeah and given that very simple message it's not as safe as we thought it was being communicated by mr very to you why did you not simply communicate that very simple message it's not as safe as we thought it was to
00:47:47 it's not as safe as we thought it was to your customers but again i don't i can't recall whether i did or didn't send it on to those customers i have no recollection of whether i did or didn't send it on to anybody
00:47:59 didn't send it on to anybody we do know that others in our comic and i won't go into the details with you we do know that others in our comic did send this information on to their customers we've seen that julie cassanyanik
00:48:11 cassanyanik sent messages and sent this message on to
00:48:14 to customers in sweden and gwen isle derando j also passed this information on to her customers
00:48:22 you you appear to have been a lone alone voiced or low non-voice in this exercise are you able to explain why that is no i can't
00:48:37 uh can we go to when i aldera and danger's evidence about this uh or rather an exhibit to her statement which is
00:48:46 met3053
00:48:49 at page 282.
00:48:53 we can see here that she has sent an email
00:48:58 email i'll just wait for you to see that on the screen thank you uh dated the third of february 2014 say that the same day in fact
00:49:09 say that the same day in fact accounting for the time difference um within minutes
00:49:15 and she sends this email to james bulman at taylor maxwell with whom i think you then became employed yes and she says dear james the subject is new firing new fire european fire class
00:49:28 new firing new fire european fire class for renee bond pe dear james i've spoken with debbie last week on the phone please finding close the new fire reaction test report for reyna bond architecture pe in accordance with en13501
00:49:43 pe in accordance with en13501 we remain at your disposal etc now there's an attachment to this email you can see from the email itself and it's identified as the english version the english translation of
00:49:54 the english translation of that 31st of january test take it from me that that's what it is which is classified all pe as we've seen as class e uh you you deal with this statement
00:50:06 uh you you deal with this statement or this email in your statement second statement at page 14. if you can just look at that please second witness statement page 14 and go please to paragraph 48.3
00:50:17 please to paragraph 48.3 you say that also on 3rd of february 2014 i was copied into an email from gwenel duran danger mr james bulman mr bulman was a sales representative of taylor maxwell the email appears to follow a conversation that i had with mr bulman
00:50:29 conversation that i had with mr bulman the previous week although i do not remember the conversation grenadel attached to the email the new fire reaction report to wreck for rainbow architecture pe in accordance with en 13501 norm looking at that attachment
00:50:41 13501 norm looking at that attachment now i can see that it's the same document that claude burley had circulated the same day again i did not recall any discussions about this at the time and then you copy and exhibit the email
00:50:53 you're not saying are you that you had no discussions at all with mr bullman and miss derek duran dan jay you you just can't recall one way or the other is that
00:51:03 is that is that your evidence here no i can't recall it no you can't rule out you did have a discussion with mr bulman no i can't rule it in i
00:51:15 with mr bulman no i can't rule it in i can't rule it out because i don't remember
00:51:17 remember you just don't remember one way or the other i don't remember one way or the other
00:51:21 other now you're copied in on this email and it
00:51:24 it it looks from the email but well let me ask you this james um bulman was in the uk wasn't he yes he was um and i think we saw from the slideshow
00:51:36 and i think we saw from the slideshow that taylor maxwell were very much part of your uk marketing strategy weren't they yes yes uh what was your relationship with taylor maxwell at this time
00:51:48 taylor maxwell at this time they were a customer i was working with them uh
00:51:51 them uh they were going out and dealing with uh architects on specifications in the uk market in the uk market now as we see you're copied in on this
00:52:02 now as we see you're copied in on this email and
00:52:03 email and it it looks as if you talk to james bulman you can't call now but look it looks in this document that you did and you could see that gwynelda and rj forwarded that information the specific
00:52:15 forwarded that information the specific report indeed onto james baldwin um
00:52:20 she clearly thought that it was relevant to the uk market why did that email or possibly the conversation that you'd have yourself with mr portman not alert you to the
00:52:31 with mr portman not alert you to the fact
00:52:32 fact that this revised classification from b now to e for p e was relevant to your customers
00:52:40 customers i don't know i can't answer that
00:52:44 you felt that you shared this information with mr bulman but not more widely among your customers can you explain that no i can't as i said i can't remember whether i did or didn't
00:52:55 whether i did or didn't send it over to other customers now you said in your witness statement that it's up to designers you say to make decisions about using random products
00:53:06 just to repeat a pair of points i put to you a few minutes ago you knew by this stage early february 2014.
00:53:15 2014. first there have been fires in the uae involving
00:53:19 involving pe called acm yes yes you knew uh that those fires were on tall buildings yes yes
00:53:30 yes yes you knew that renault bond pe had been reclassified as class e down from class b and you've been told that by your superiors or line managers at merck's time
00:53:41 at merck's time yes yes how would you expect in those circumstances how would you expect a designer to make a decision about whether or not to use reyno bond pe
00:53:51 pe when you hadn't provided them with that information about the downgrading
00:54:00 well it would have been difficult for them yes
00:54:04 them yes isn't the reality that in failing to update your customers about the european classification tests it was you who decided that it wasn't relevant to them rather than leaving it to them to decide
00:54:16 rather than leaving it to them to decide whether the information that you were giving them was relevant to them well i can't remember whether i did or didn't send that information out to them and it was you who decided that only national class not mattered
00:54:28 national class not mattered and that euro class nor the euro class was irrelevant that's right information we were always asked for was for the bba certificate not for any european certificates
00:54:39 not for any european certificates and you made a decision on that basis to withhold from your customers something that you knew they didn't know and therefore you deliberately limited the information
00:54:50 deliberately limited the information made available to them on the basis of which they could make their choice do you accept that i didn't deliberately withhold that no i was clearly not understanding enough about what i was and wasn't passing on but i
00:55:01 what i was and wasn't passing on but i didn't deliberately to help whack anything
00:55:08 do you realize that not a single person who has given evidence to this inquiry so far knew that the reyno bond panels were ever
00:55:17 were ever classified as class e did you know that no
00:55:27 and is the reason for that accepting that that is true the only reason for that is because you fail to tell them as i say i don't recall whether i did or didn't
00:55:37 didn't alert anybody to that fact
00:55:44 following this email following the receipt of the email from claude velle to the two lists do you accept that you have authority to tell your customers about the downgrade from b to e
00:55:57 downgrade from b to e yes do you accept that you should have told them
00:56:02 told them looking at it yes i should have sent that on to them at the time i wouldn't have deliberately withheld it for any reason
00:56:13 can we go to claude verlet's exhibit part 7
00:56:17 part 7 which is met3053158 underscore p07 at page 33.
00:56:30 at page 33. this is uh
00:56:34 so sorry there it is now this is a sales meeting in january 2014 technical assistance uh so a month or so or during the month
00:56:45 so a month or so or during the month before
00:56:46 before the email of the third of february do you remember being present at this sales meeting
00:56:51 meeting um i i don't think i missed any so um but i don't recall it specifically but i don't remember missing any yes and you said that yesterday so can we assume that you would have been
00:57:02 we assume that you would have been present at this sales meeting yes yes and can we assume that you would have seen this slide show or note uh
00:57:13 note uh it says technical assistance just help me do you know who would have drafted or created this document uh no i don't would you have had any
00:57:24 uh no i don't would you have had any input into it do you think doubtful who was it who did you know you don't know i don't know um if we go please to page 36 in this document
00:57:39 uh we can see uh under 2014
00:57:49 there is a set of bullet points uh and uh i just want to give you a little bit more context to this if you go back to the previous page
00:58:01 go back to the previous page the previous page is 2013 highlights
00:58:06 and it says team involved on support of r d
00:58:09 r d projects mechanical process analyzer of npd mechanical behavior transformation fire class etc preparing technical data sheets with marketing departments
00:58:20 sheets with marketing departments day-to-day business answers to outside sales sorry inside sales outside sales architects fabricators distributors customers of customers of customers of customers
00:58:31 customers of customers of customers um was there any discussion that you recall at this sales meeting about transmission of fire class information through
00:58:39 through the sales teams out to architects fabricators distributors and customers customers customers etc i don't recall it this no it looks on the face of it just help us
00:58:51 the face of it just help us that uh sales teams were expected to be familiar with things like mechanical behavior transformation
00:59:02 transformation fire class in order to be able to answer questions is that right yes or at the very least even if not completely equipped to answer all
00:59:14 completely equipped to answer all technical questions able to understand the questions and know to whom to pass them internally is that fair yes and then to understand the answers when they came back from the technical sales support team
00:59:28 technical sales support team yes yes let me look at the page uh i was wanting to go to page four page 36 page four internally page 1436 which says 2014 adapted technical tool
00:59:41 which says 2014 adapted technical tool accessible from everywhere what is that a reference to do you know i don't know i don't recall it new technical training for the sales team did that include you
00:59:53 team did that include you um so i was part of the sales team so it would have included me did you get any new technical training i don't remember getting any technical training
01:00:02 training updating for existing certifications did you get any updating for existing certifications apart from though we saw from mr verde yeah i can't
01:00:13 though we saw from mr verde yeah i can't recall
01:00:14 recall then it says new certification for new countries new markets and then as a plea please it says the person
01:00:21 person in charge of a country and or market has to check the certifications and qualifications needed to sail impossible for a project but check and ask in order to anticipate
01:00:37 did you hear and that message at this sales meeting i don't recognize it i don't remember it
01:00:48 i don't recognize it i don't remember it did you understand even vaguely or remember even vaguely that it was it was expected that you in charge of uk sales and the uk market for renabon 55
01:01:00 sales and the uk market for renabon 55 had to check the certifications and qualifications needed to make a sale i don't i don't remember that no
01:01:13 if you had as it says checked the certifications and qualifications needed to make a sale of renewable 55 pe core standard
01:01:24 of renewable 55 pe core standard in the uk you would have realized straight away that the european class fire classification for that product had been downgraded from b to e
01:01:36 been downgraded from b to e wouldn't you yes
01:01:40 you would also have realized that the european classification system was relevant
01:01:43 relevant in the uk again not least because the bba certificate cited the european classification as the basis
01:01:52 basis for the conclusion that it could be regarded as class naught same again yeah yes
01:02:01 i'm going to turn to the uk certificate again
01:02:04 again and this time in the context of the grandfather's tower project can we please go
01:02:09 please go to cep50281 we are now uh at uh
01:02:16 uh at uh april 2013.14. this is an email from you to mark harris harley on the 23rd of april 2014 at 1337 copying mike alveston and jeff blades
01:02:29 copying mike alveston and jeff blades subject um planning rain screen turning samples straight material and you can see from the attachments
01:02:40 and you can see from the attachments that there are a number of them including a safety data sheet warranty specimen
01:02:47 specimen cleaning recommendations color charts etc
01:02:50 etc but the first document that you attach is the bba certificate zero eight four five one zero
01:02:57 zero you see that yes uh and let's go to the attachment it's a document we looked at before it's it's the bba certificate um we can we can look at it either in bba 6047
01:03:11 we can look at it either in bba 6047 or at cep50282 don't know which we pick we've gone for the bba
01:03:20 the bba uh you you can see the certificate we looked at it yesterday if we go to page five please we can see that section six one we covered this yesterday
01:03:31 covered this yesterday so i'm not going to take you through it all over again sample stand that a standard sample of the product with a grey green zero gloss 5000 coating were tested for reaction to fire achieved a classification of b
01:03:42 achieved a classification of b s two d naught in accordance with en 13 501.1 2002. now where it says that it had a classification of b that was wrong wasn't it when you sent
01:03:54 that was wrong wasn't it when you sent this document to mr harris of harley having seen the way that you've described it all now yes at the time you sent this bba certificate the european classification
01:04:06 certificate the european classification was not b but he wasn't it yes and that would say regardless of whether the panels were rivet or cassette yes yes there would be no way would
01:04:18 yes yes there would be no way would there for mike albertson or indeed jeff blades to know that would they reading the certificate when you were sending them no it would have been very easy for you wouldn't it in your covering email just
01:04:30 wouldn't it in your covering email just to say that the bba certificate was no longer up to date and that the european classification for reyno bond pe panels was no longer b but e it would have been is wouldn't it easy
01:04:41 e it would have been is wouldn't it easy for you to do that it would have been but i don't think i'd associated the two again and and i was like if the bba wasn't relevant i would have expected it for it to have been
01:04:52 to have been withdrawn right but uh you're presenting this document which contains a statement of paragraph 6.1
01:05:00 6.1 that was in fact wrong as you say and you'd also been told by claude verlet that it was that that this standard sample of a product no longer had a b but an e uh my
01:05:13 no longer had a b but an e uh my question to you is why didn't you simply put in your covering email whether you thought it was relevant or not but uh that part of the bba certificate was no longer
01:05:24 longer current because it had now achieved the classification of e i don't know i didn't associate the two together as i say you say you didn't associate the two together this certificate that you are
01:05:36 together this certificate that you are sending
01:05:37 sending exactly associates the two together because it it cites the euro classification of b yeah i see that now but i don't think i i
01:05:46 i pulled i don't think i put the two together at the time can you explain why that is given that this certificate which was the linchpin of your sales as you've told us repeatedly expressly states uh that reynaborn pe
01:05:59 expressly states uh that reynaborn pe stand as standard that had achieved to be which was something that by this time you knew to be wrong i would have expected to have had something from merck's time to say that the bbo wasn't then relevant can we look
01:06:18 the bbo wasn't then relevant can we look at your first witness statement to page three please and i'd like to look at uh
01:06:24 at uh paragraph eight page three at the top is part of the way through paragraph eight but i want to just look at what you say four lines down from the top of the page there
01:06:34 there you say i'm i occasionally also pointed to the british board of aggramar bba certificate for the rainer bond architectural wall cladding panels number zero eight slash
01:06:46 cladding panels number zero eight slash four five one zero and we'll provide a pdf copy if asked you see that you then go on to say however i would point out
01:06:55 point out that i generally work with five or six fabricators and once they have received this bba certificate on the project it was very rare that they would ask me for it again on other projects just pausing there does that mean
01:07:08 just pausing there does that mean that you thought at the time that fabricators like jeff blades for example at cep would think that the bba certificate was still valid unless you pointed out errors
01:07:19 valid unless you pointed out errors to them
01:07:22 yes
01:07:25 wasn't that all the more reason for you to highlight the change in classification as i say i would have expected that to have come from merck sign that there that the bba was no longer valid
01:07:41 but you would have known it was no longer valid or at least to this extent because you had two things in your hands you had the bba certificate saying b and you had the email from mr verle saying e why did you need anything from
01:07:53 saying e why did you need anything from berkshire
01:07:53 berkshire to be able to be able to go to your customer and just qualify the uh the email by reference to the fact that
01:08:01 fact that it was no longer bbt as i've said i don't think i at the time i don't think i associated the two together and as there wasn't a specific instruction that the bba wasn't valid
01:08:12 instruction that the bba wasn't valid i i was clearly operating on the fact that it still was now leaving aside cep who may well have had uh the certificate from them in years in years previous this was the
01:08:23 in years in years previous this was the first time i think that you were dealing directly with harley wasn't it yes yes uh given that you are now dealing directly with harley here on the grenfell tower project for
01:08:34 here on the grenfell tower project for the first time and sending them this certificate for the first time was that not absolutely the occasion on which to tell them
01:08:42 them that this certificate is dated 2008 but we've just had a recent new test on pe which says it's class e as to say i i wouldn't have associated
01:08:54 as to say i i wouldn't have associated the two together at the time and was obviously working that the bba was still valid do you accept that had you alerted them to the fact simply
01:09:05 to the fact simply that b was wrong and it was now e you would have equipped them you would have enabled party to ask you the next question which was how standard pe could be regarded as having class naught
01:09:16 naught in circumstances where it was no longer a class b european they would have had better information yes yes
01:09:24 yes yes and do you accept that by providing the bba certificate to harley as you did here without any qualification or caveat as to the fire classification of standard pe you allowed harley to think that standard pe
01:09:36 that standard pe rivet or cassette had a euro class b when it did not say i hadn't associated two at the time and therefore i would have expected the bba to have been withdrawn at the same time as that
01:09:47 time as that email had come out yes just that's not quite an answer to my question my question
01:09:51 question just looking at your dealings with harley do you accept that by providing this bba certificate to harley at this time without any qualification or any caveat as to the
01:10:02 qualification or any caveat as to the fire classification of radiobond 55 standard pe you allowed harley to think that standard pe rivet orca said had euro class b when it
01:10:13 rivet orca said had euro class b when it didn't
01:10:14 didn't yeah that's because that was what's on the bbm yes
01:10:20 and thereby to think that because it had euro class b it may be regarded as having national class not
01:10:26 class not yes mr is that a convenient moment yes i spell it i think it is uh we'll have a short break uh mrs french we'll come back at half past three please
01:10:37 past three please and please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room all right okay thank you sir thank you very much i'll pass three please
01:25:00 hello everyone welcome back um i'm going to ask miss french if she can see me and hear me again are you there miss french yes i can see you and hear you thank you sir good thank you very much and you're
01:25:11 sir good thank you very much and you're ready to carry on are you yes i am right thank you yes mr miller and when you're ready yes thank you mr chairman mr french welcome back uh can i just ask you please
01:25:23 uh can i just ask you please to look at an email the email chain again in april 2014
01:25:31 2014 this is at cep50281
01:25:44 uh and i'm just looking at it again uh this at this time 23rd of april 2014. do you remember that ryden had been appointed do you know at this
01:25:55 had been appointed do you know at this point ryden had been appointed the preferred bidder but the cladding had not yet been finalized
01:26:01 finalized uh i couldn't without checking through documents i wouldn't be able to confirm that one way or another all right now if we go to the very bottom of page one in this email run
01:26:12 you'll see that uh there's an email from mark harris to you on the day before the day you send into the bbx
01:26:19 the bbx bba certificate 22nd of april a copy to mike alviston and he says hi deb
01:26:26 deb and then in the fourth paragraph down he says as you can see the architect is now looking at other options however ryden do not want to increase the cost plan by a single penny being we are already in a ve phase
01:26:38 in a ve phase before i start ordering up a myriad of samples again can you give me your guide on which of the listed colors would be more expensive than the standard range this will help hopefully helps to try to get the architect to focus
01:26:50 get the architect to focus et cetera on what can be afforded with the current cost plan rather than going off to tangent do you recall that the project was undergoing a value engineering exercise at that time
01:27:02 at that time that wouldn't have been something that i would have been involved with but um a lot of projects go through a ve so possibly
01:27:08 possibly right uh you're certainly being told that here aren't you yes yes um did you know that cladding the choice of rain screen material was central to that exercise
01:27:19 central to that exercise no i didn't it looks from this did you understand from this that the the employer might not have been able to afford options other than acm
01:27:30 options other than acm no that's not information i would have had
01:27:33 had were you alive to the idea even if not the fact
01:27:37 the fact that ryden as a newly appointed contractor might not want to increase the price of more expensive material no again that wouldn't have been something that i would have been involved with
01:27:48 involved with right now we've seen the price that you quoted in early 2014 which is 28 pounds per square meter and we've seen the evidence that mr schmidt earlier about the price differential between pe and fr at the time of the supply to grenfell
01:28:01 fr at the time of the supply to grenfell tower on that project we can go back to it if you like but do you remember he said that the differential is around uh two euros per square meter for pe over fr yes
01:28:14 over fr yes now that's of course the supply of fabricator that's the price is is that right on supply to the fabricator who would then add their own charges for fabricating the sheets into cassettes
01:28:25 fabricating the sheets into cassettes and
01:28:26 and rivets as the case may be that's right and then is it right that the fabricator would then add those charges and then um pass those onto the cladding contractor and the cladding contractor would add
01:28:37 and the cladding contractor would add their charges and so on up the chain is that how it worked i believe so yes right
01:28:43 right looking at it the the very at the your end of things the very bottom of the chain if i can put it that way there isn't a huge difference there in price between pe and fr chord acm
01:28:55 in price between pe and fr chord acm no there was not there but again for my recollection from the uk we there was somewhere around about four to five euros we would price it four to five euros
01:29:06 we would price it four to five euros difference right uh peter frederick in his statement of paragraph 48 page 17. i don't need to take it to it unless you want me to show it to you but he
01:29:15 but he he says that in the in in terms of the price difference with relation in relation to the supply to grenfell tower the cost to cep for the raw fabric in fr core form
01:29:28 for the raw fabric in fr core form would have been around 14 000 euros more than in pe core form based on a rounded supply figure of 7 000 odd square meters is that a figure that you would
01:29:40 meters is that a figure that you would agree with i wouldn't i'd have to work that back to what it would be a square meter yes and that's the sort of i mean it may not be an accurate number but that's the sort of range of
01:29:51 sort of range of of difference he has identified for this project 14 000 euros is the cost difference between pe core and fr core would you agree with that even in round terms i would have probably said so more
01:30:04 terms i would have probably said so more on the european market but but not necessarily on the uk market
01:30:10 what do you mean more understanding we were selling fr in the uk and we didn't sell an awful lot of fr was that the prices were were more than two euros
01:30:22 were more than two euros roughly two two and a half euros they were more like um sort of four euros a square meter difference so you say that in your experience being at the front end of things you would say that the difference wasn't two euros but
01:30:34 that the difference wasn't two euros but four euros by which pe was cheaper than fr yes i see okay
01:30:44 so on the footing of a rounded supply of 28
01:30:47 28 of 7000 square meters on the grenfell tower project that would mean a total price difference between p e and f are
01:30:56 f are say 28 or even 30 000 pounds that's about it isn't it yes
01:31:05 if if that was the price differential why didn't you just supply the fr product as a standard product i i
01:31:16 standard product i i can't answer that question i i don't know
01:31:20 why didn't you offer the fr product i don't i don't recall whether i did or didn't offer fr but um the the information that other quotations have pulled together don't
01:31:31 quotations have pulled together don't specify fr or pe that's right and my question just ask it again is why didn't you specifically offer a choice between the fr and the pe variants uh or
01:31:44 and the pe variants uh or call differences and leave it to harley or
01:31:47 or ryden or the alternate client to decide whether they were prepared to spend the extra money on their fire i don't know we
01:31:55 know we we just automatically quoted pe as as a call rather than fr there's no no other reason for it there's no reason for not to have quoted it
01:32:06 it no this automatic or default uh to pe was that something that was ever discussed
01:32:16 discussed internally and iconic to your knowledge um my understanding is when i first took over that it was the general market was pe and everything was pe yes but was that ever discussed was this
01:32:28 yes but was that ever discussed was this default knee-jerk habit of just selling pe not ever giving customers a choice between pe and fr ever actually discussed either sales meetings uh or even
01:32:40 meetings uh or even more privately as between you and mr frolic or you and anybody else you dealt with the dark comic and mercs i don't believe so i think no i don't believe so
01:32:51 let's then turn to the time when ryden were appointed to be the preferred bidder in and after the spring of 2014
01:33:01 of 2014 uh up to september of that year when the rbkc planners agreed finally agreed the cladding uh i say finally formally agreed it do you remember that planners had to be
01:33:12 do you remember that planners had to be convinced that acm would be suitable on grenfell tower no i didn't you didn't do you remember whether there was any uncertainty at all about what color acm would be chosen
01:33:24 what color acm would be chosen um no again i wouldn't have been that clear apart from the fact that we were supplying an awful lot of samples which would have intimated that they weren't sure which one they wanted exactly so you knew there was
01:33:36 exactly so you knew there was uncertainty uh about what they wanted or some discussion at least about the colors that they were after you remember that much yeah there was a lot a lot of samples requested an awful lot of colors
01:33:47 lot of colors lots of discussions about colors did you know that the planners also had to be persuaded uh that the rivet fix was acceptable no i didn't and indeed as we know in the
01:34:00 no i didn't and indeed as we know in the end they
01:34:00 end they agreed to rain bonded smoke silver with a cassette fix i think you know that
01:34:07 i wasn't aware of that at the time you weren't
01:34:10 weren't so no sorry i was aware of that at the time because i remember seeing an email from harley i believe uh might have been cep
01:34:20 cep yes so looking at it slightly more broadly
01:34:23 broadly did you know at the time and when i say at the time i mean during the period april to september 2014 that there was a debate
01:34:30 debate um as between ryden and harley on the one hand perhaps and rbkc on the other about whether um the whether cassette fix or rivet fix should be used at granville tower no i wouldn't have been party to that
01:34:42 no i wouldn't have been party to that information right i'm going to take your actions during this period quickly and see if you agree
01:34:48 you agree and if there's anything i'm missing out please tell me um you provided a number of samples during this period didn't you yes and we've seen the list of samples that you provided um which we saw at
01:34:59 that you provided um which we saw at 3-0 is 19919 we looked at that earlier you also provided a information and images to help the customers understand the difference between the look of rivet fix and the look of cassette fix is that right
01:35:13 look of cassette fix is that right i believe that some images were provided so they could see the difference between the bet on the various colors i can't remember whether it was specific to rivet fixed or cassette yes
01:35:24 specific to rivet fixed or cassette yes but you remember you said for example photographs of other products like south kilburn yes yes and do you agree that you also arranged for material to be provided for a mock-up so that the planners could
01:35:35 a mock-up so that the planners could consider the colors there was a mock-up material was requested for a mock-up by cep yes yes and you sent uh the mock-up fabric to
01:35:44 fabric to cep for the mock-up didn't you max time sent that
01:35:47 sent that yes mercury i think that was free wasn't it there was no charge for that i believe so would iconic usually provide fabric for a mock-up free of charge um we they they would if
01:36:00 free of charge um we they they would if if we had material around i'd again from reading the emails since i think there was something wrong with that particular material in terms of the surface
01:36:11 terms of the surface so therefore they were able to provide it for free but not all occasions we would charge for it in some cases would you say that looking at the things you've agreed you did during this period you were very active
01:36:22 you were very active for this project or on this project at this particular time in providing samples yes and you worked hard for the sale i think it's fair to say
01:36:32 say isn't it no harder than i would have done others by providing a service i was just trying to
01:36:38 to to provide the information that people needed right
01:36:46 did you know that peter froelich had visited the uk and met cep and also harley did i know yes no he didn't
01:37:00 he never told you that he'd gone to the uk and met cep and harley didn't tell you that after he'd gone he he came over to the uk on a couple of
01:37:12 he he came over to the uk on a couple of occasions i took him around to see did you mean he went on his own or he was with me but let's look and see if what he says in his statement can we go to met3053197
01:37:24 in his statement can we go to met3053197 please
01:37:25 please and i'd like to look at page 10 with you paragraph 37.
01:37:37 he says uh in paragraph 37 i was aware that cep and harley were involved with the grenfell tower project and i attended separate introductory meetings at their
01:37:48 separate introductory meetings at their respective offices i cannot recall the exact date these meetings took place but i believe that it was before june 2014 the purpose of both of these meetings was not project specific but was rather
01:37:59 was not project specific but was rather to introduce me as the project manager for raynaud and they were part of my general meetings with customers which took place once or twice a year in terms of attendees at the cep meeting in addition to myself and deborah french
01:38:10 in addition to myself and deborah french neil wilson cep was in attendance i cannot recall who was present at the meeting with harley i understand that a visit report should have been created as it would be for meetings with customers
01:38:20 customers and i would expect that deborah did this
01:38:25 then he goes on a little bit more to say i would normally i've received a copy of this but i cannot recall if i received a copy for this particular meeting i do not have any notes from these meetings because when i attend meetings
01:38:37 meetings because when i attend meetings with sales representatives i do not normally make such notes as the representative does this do you in the light of that evidence there from mr freud do you remember peter frodo's visit to the united kingdom that he describes here
01:38:50 kingdom that he describes here i don't remember that specifically going there
01:38:53 there but uh he he did come over on occasions to the uk and i did take him round uh over those periods to various customers and fabricators so
01:39:04 customers and fabricators so yes very yes that very probably happened he recalls specifically a meeting at cep at which view a present yeah is he right about that i can't recall it but yes i'm not disagreeing
01:39:16 recall it but yes i'm not disagreeing with him
01:39:17 with him okay and he says that he recalls that the grenfell tower project was discussed and a section drawing showing a level of an identifier of an unidentified building was put out on the table
01:39:29 building was put out on the table do you remember that happening no i don't it says that a little bit lower down the page you don't recall that do you recall any discussion at that meeting of the fire classification of reynold 1 pe55
01:39:40 reynold 1 pe55 no i don't you recall any discussion at that meeting about the bba certificate no i can't recall the meeting did mr do you remember whether mr frolich said anything about the recent
01:39:51 anything about the recent change in the fire classification of renault bond p e from b to e no i can't because i don't recall the meeting
01:40:02 on the subject of what he says about visit reports can we just look at your second witness statement please at page 25
01:40:13 paragraph 88.1 you say i may have taken i may have taken notes during meetings about the refurbishment of grenfell tower but i do not remember anything
01:40:25 tower but i do not remember anything specific
01:40:25 specific and i disposed of all records of my time with our colleague after i left the business
01:40:31 business i do not know if anyone else in those meetings took such notes i cannot recall submitting any visit reports or any summaries of these meetings to our comic was it part of your role to write
01:40:42 write revisit reports for meetings with customers
01:40:46 customers initially no we weren't uh requested to do any of that the crm system was then being developed uh more and more at that point for us to be doing uh
01:40:57 be doing uh recording certain visit reports i don't recall
01:41:00 recall whether i did any for that particular meeting or not by the time of mid 2014 was the system sufficiently developed
01:41:07 developed whereby you were making notes of these meetings and creating visit reports yes i believe it was
01:41:15 was and were you supposed to submit them to merck sign no i think they were held within the cr they were generated through the crm system and held in there i see see when you say they were
01:41:28 i see see when you say they were generated through the crm system did you type
01:41:30 type your notes onto the system or did you create a report and then send that by email to somebody to input into the system
01:41:37 system no it would have been generated into the system
01:41:41 system right so it would give you any reason to think that it wouldn't still be there no if i did one it would there's no reason for it not to be there right and if it's not there where would
01:41:52 right and if it's not there where would it be
01:41:53 it be i don't know i see do you remember making a visit report for this particular meeting and you say you can't recall the meeting but i you know whether you remember writing it no i don't i don't recall whether i did
01:42:06 no i don't i don't recall whether i did one for that specific meeting or not right do you remember writing any report of a meeting attended by peter frederick in the uk
01:42:13 in the uk in mid-2014 no can we go then to slightly different topic
01:42:20 topic uh cep50443 this is a little bit further in time during 2014 this is an email chained at the end of july and early august of that year and
01:42:32 july and early august of that year and i'd like to look with you at the bottom of page one of the email run it's an email from simon lawrence to mark harris rob maxwell and ray bailey copied to others at ryden
01:42:45 copied to others at ryden uh and mike albaston uh at harley it's not copy to you at this point
01:42:51 point but let's just look together at the first paragraph three lines down he says the bottom line is that the client has just confirmed uh to planning they are looking to proceed with the renault bond champagne
01:43:03 proceed with the renault bond champagne color as shown on the mock-up the main body of the building and the cladding will be the cassette fixing version and then if you look at the paragraph at the bottom of the page it says
01:43:12 says it is unlikely that the planners will have any major issues with the above proposals as they have wanted cassette fixings from the start
01:43:20 start i may be wise not to order the champagne color until we have 100 assurance but you can certainly start getting things rolling full design can start now
01:43:29 start now and if we scroll up uh immediately above that we can see mark harris forwards this
01:43:34 this email on to you the same day 31st of july 2014. uh and to jeff blades he goes to jeff blades copy to you jeff deb copy for your interest
01:43:47 jeff deb copy for your interest then if we go to the top of the page we can see your response on the 1st of august to mark harris hi mark it's getting exciting thank you for your hard work and perseverance putting reynabon forward i think i owe you and jeff either lunch
01:43:59 i think i owe you and jeff either lunch or dinner at some point debs now at this point is it right you must have been reasonably certain that you had won the supply contract is that right yes it was definitely
01:44:10 is that right yes it was definitely clear that that was uh that potentially that's the way it was going to go and your email says thanks for putting raino bond forward
01:44:21 forward thank you for your hard work and perseverance in putting rhino bond forward
01:44:26 forward were they instrumental in getting renewable specified do you think uh in terms of the specification and yes they would have been
01:44:38 they would have been now this email goes to mark harris of harley and jeff blades of cep were you thanking
01:44:43 thanking both of them or any one of them both of them i would have been referring that too
01:44:49 that too so does this show your marketing strategy in action namely good contacts with fabricators like cep
01:44:57 like cep who would push your products uh directly to people like harley yeah and if jeff hadn't have introduced me to that then i wouldn't we wouldn't necessarily have been involved with it
01:45:09 necessarily have been involved with it now jeff blades made it clear in his evidence that he did not have a celebratory meal with you is that your recollection absolutely so is this just a nice thing to say to a colleague
01:45:21 colleague yes i don't i the only time i ever had anything
01:45:25 anything with jeff was a a coffee either in their offices um i certainly never had any meals out or lunches out with uh with anybody from harley or cep
01:45:37 harley or cep was it usual for you to have these sorts of informal and very direct communications with an end customer such as harley on projects no they were the only ones that we did that with
01:45:48 that we did that with so grateful towers are one opposite in this respect in terms of communicating with the installer yes
01:45:56 right so so far as as grenfell was concerned at the very least coming back to your 13th
01:46:01 13th may 2013 email that we discussed before the lunch break we could say the very least that at least in respect to grenfell tower that was a project where you had close control of the supply chain and worked
01:46:13 control of the supply chain and worked closely with your fabricator that's correct isn't it as far as grenfell is concerned yes yes and you were in a position to ensure that as between fr core and pe core the right product ended up on
01:46:25 core the right product ended up on grenfell tower weren't you
01:46:31 my mother's the same my knowledge is clearly not what it should have been but you were in a position to ensure that as between those two cores the right one the
01:46:43 those two cores the right one the appropriate one for grenfell tower ended up on that building aren't you yes
01:46:53 how come pe was right and fr not right i don't know as i say my knowledge was not sufficient enough to be able to determine that it's reasonably clear at
01:47:05 determine that it's reasonably clear at this point isn't it early august 2014 that grenfell was going to be planned in cassette fix although in fact the decision wasn't made for another month or two
01:47:17 made for another month or two but do you agree with that that it was reasonably clear to you at this time that grenfell was going to be planning cassette
01:47:23 cassette yes did you mention any particular risk with that fixing method as opposed to rivet
01:47:30 rivet i don't recall doing that right is there a reason why not so i think my knowledge was was was lacking in being able to do that
01:47:42 can we go to your second witness statement please at page 18.
01:47:48 i'd like to look with your paragraph 65.
01:47:54 you say there i would again repeat that i had left our conics employment over two months before the products were ordered for the grenfell tower refurbishment project i therefore
01:48:07 tower refurbishment project i therefore had no involvement in the final ordering or supply of products i would also repeat that our coding was involved only in the manufacture of a raw product which is supplied to specialist fabricators and installers
01:48:18 to specialist fabricators and installers of cladding systems our colleague was not involved in the design or specification of materials for building projects that's done by iconic's customers or the people with whom they contract now mr french having having looked at
01:48:30 now mr french having having looked at your involvement in the project from march 2013 and 13 up to
01:48:36 to the later part of the summer of 2014 when the panels ultimately used were agreed do you accept that what you say here in this statement
01:48:45 statement paragraph 65 is wrong
01:48:49 um i wouldn't say it's it's incorrect um because at the time that's that's that was that was my understanding
01:48:59 is not the truth that you worked extremely hard over a number of years with direct contact with cep studio e and harley to make sure
01:49:12 cep studio e and harley to make sure that ray no bond pe 55 was considered by the architect on the grenfell tower project and accepted by the rbkc planets i worked with cep and and harley
01:49:25 i worked with cep and and harley to to provide them with all the information that they needed yes and that when you say that our comic was involved only in the manufacture of a raw product which is then supplied
01:49:37 then supplied not involved in the design and specification of materials for grenfell tower that's just wrong isn't it
01:49:43 isn't it no we were only responsible for uh we were only responsible for supplying the raw materials especially we didn't write the specification we weren't involved in a
01:49:54 specification we weren't involved in a specification
01:49:59 and i would suggest you that when you say what you say here
01:50:05 in all respects this paragraph represents really an attempt by you to distance yourself from the choice of cladding materials made for grenfell tower which in fact bears little relation
01:50:16 bears little relation to the facts as you have accepted them to be
01:50:21 no it's it's that's not the way that it was it's it's as i say my knowledge was clearly not what it needed to have been nothing was done
01:50:30 done in any other format other than that now you
01:50:41 you say you played no role in the design of the facade uh at grenfell tower you say this essentially here you said it just now and you said uh another parts of your witness statement such as paragraph 82
01:50:54 such as paragraph 82 did those in charge of design whether it was studio e or harley or anybody in that chain ever discuss or seek to discuss far performance of
01:51:06 or seek to discuss far performance of chatting with you not that i can recall no did they ever seek to discuss the difference between pe and fr corp so far as they knew it existed
01:51:17 far as they knew it existed with you not that i can recall no do they ever seem to discuss the differences between rivet and cassette fix in terms of fire safety with you no not that i can recall
01:51:29 with you no not that i can recall did you ever wonder why nobody on this project ever asked you about any of about fire performance in relation to cassette fix and uh fix uh set fix or
01:51:40 cassette fix and uh fix uh set fix or rivet fix
01:51:42 rivet fix no did you ever wonder why nobody ever asked you about the difference in fire performance between fr and pe no how did that lack of questioning compare
01:51:51 compare with your other customers that you dealt with over the years up to 2013 and 2014. as i've said uh previously there was
01:52:03 as i've said uh previously there was very very few questions asked about the differences between between the cause or uh fire related questions there may have been one or two over the years but very very very few so
01:52:15 over the years but very very very few so are you telling us that harley's and studio e's ryden's in curiosity about fire performance of the clowning you were providing was not out of the ordinary in your experience as it was at
01:52:26 ordinary in your experience as it was at the time
01:52:27 the time yes it was that was more normal than normal
01:52:32 normal i just want to ask you about an email involving a gentleman called serge vala uh have you heard the name serge varna
01:52:39 varna w-a-h-l-e-r yes he headed up uh renault's in in marxtime yes can we look please met3053158
01:52:51 can we look please met3053158 underscore p10 at page 108.
01:53:01 this is an email chain from october 2014
01:53:05 and you are not copied uh so i'm going to assume that you didn't see this at the time but i do want to ask you about one or two things in it
01:53:16 about one or two things in it uh search value as i think you said he's he headed up raylax in murksheim and
01:53:23 and he was in fact i think the sales manager for contracts and export but that is at least according to his signature that you see on the email at the top of this page would that be right
01:53:34 the top of this page would that be right yes my understanding was it was just with renault's material though not anything else i think now um if um if you look at the subject
01:53:42 subject of uh the second email down from the top let's just look at that email it's from denk gwenter gunter of prefer
01:53:59 and the subject matter is pe order fr in england
01:54:03 england and the question is hi mr verda due to the circumstances we need your help with reinerbod in england the question is when and for which building classes should the pe or fr call be used in
01:54:15 should the pe or fr call be used in england
01:54:16 england we're supposed to give the customer an answer by 12 noon today at the latest exclamation mark thanks to iran's best gunter denk uh if you then go up the page um 108 we can see that serge vala replies
01:54:28 108 we can see that serge vala replies on the same day
01:54:33 uh copy to claude hi he says you can do everything with pe in england as we have customers there can you tell me what you want to do in england question mark thanks in advance i should
01:54:45 question mark thanks in advance i should have noted the date this is 14 17th of october 2014. and if you go to the bottom of page 107 we can see claude verlet's response
01:54:56 we can see claude verlet's response uh sent only to serge vala it's an internal message be careful this is not the case debbie pushes hard for the pe prescriptions
01:55:07 for the pe prescriptions but everything is moving to fr from the british standard to the european norms did you call him analyses of past figures are not necessarily correct
01:55:18 necessarily correct and immediately above that still we see serge vale responding to claude verna on the same day 17th of october 2014 and he says claude i called her and she confirmed that so
01:55:29 i called her and she confirmed that so far only pe is used regardless of the project
01:55:32 project no specific legislation the customer at prefer is delivering a construction project in london and wanted to know
01:55:41 and then if you go above that on page 107 we can see that mr verla
01:55:53 goes well it's not a response to him but he seems to come three years later on the 16th of june 2017 that is two days after the grenfell tower of fire
01:56:04 days after the grenfell tower of fire but it's next in the email string serge remember
01:56:09 remember be careful with this kind of communication to prefer claude
01:56:16 now if you go to the top of page 107
01:56:24 there's an email the same day 16th of june 2017
01:56:29 june 2017 and he says this is mr varla back to claude vale please note i have not answered any more questions about rb for months now assuming that i no longer know anything about the product
01:56:39 product that being the case i thought debbie was logically the person who was best informed and stupid i stupidly repeated what she told me i'm very good at doing that exclamation mark
01:56:50 mark marks now my first question is having shown you the heard of this email run do you remember this discussion or any discussion with claude with serge further on this subject
01:57:03 with serge further on this subject is what he says in his email to claude verlet correct when he says that only pe is used in england regardless of the project
01:57:15 yes
01:57:18 i'm sorry yes did you in fact believe that no specific legislation was in place governing pe i'm not sure i would have
01:57:30 governing pe i'm not sure i would have used that terminology that he's put in that email but i would have
01:57:35 have probably if i've had that conversation with him then i would have said that it was
01:57:39 was generally p was being used he seems to suggest to claude further that you told her you told him that there was no specific
01:57:50 you told him that there was no specific legislation did you say that to him or words to that effect i
01:57:55 effect i i can't recall i can't recall the conversation so i can't confirm that one way or another i mean you did tell us on a number of occasions now that you would automatically supply or offer pe core in the uk
01:58:07 offer pe core in the uk uh and that you'd understood that the relevant classification for rayner bond pe in the uk was class national class naught
01:58:17 would that be consistent and i'm asking you really to comment but to the best of your recollection would that be consistent with what serge varla is telling claude vella here
01:58:28 varla is telling claude vella here yes
01:58:32 now this is in october 2014. so this is many months after you have been told by claude vella that pe was a euro class e did you
01:58:45 e did you have any conversation with mr vala at this stage about that subject not that i've come a call no
01:58:52 call no did mr varna or mr velay either of them tell you
01:58:57 tell you whether at this time or in this context the prefer request that excuse me that you the pe no longer had
01:59:10 excuse me that you the pe no longer had a class b in the uk sorry euro class b but only a class e and therefore couldn't be regarded as having national class naught in the uk
01:59:21 having national class naught in the uk no i don't recall that excuse me
01:59:28 now claude vale comments on this exchange in his witness statement i just want to show you what he says about it it's it to met3053190 at page 38 paragraph 132 please
01:59:53 and if we look down the page 11 lines down in that paragraph
02:00:04 11 lines down in that paragraph you can see some italicized text where he's quoting from emails
02:00:11 uh and about halfway down he says by reference to his reply to serge baldwin saying be careful this is not the case deadly push is strongly for prescriptions in pe with everything is switching to fr transition from british standards to
02:00:23 transition from british standards to euro norms have you called her the analysis of past because it's not necessarily okay so he's quoting from his own email we looked at together a moment ago and he then says um
02:00:35 and he then says um he then says that la the last sentence meant even in the uk i expected there would be
02:00:40 would be in there would in time be a transition to euro norms he says that then if we go over the page to page 39 still within this paragraph paragraph 132
02:00:51 132 the first line there he says uh the top of the page whilst i did not have any detailed knowledge outside of france i was aware that different jurisdictions would have different regulatory regimes
02:01:02 would have different regulatory regimes regarding the end use of acmpe and that in some countries it was not a it was only allowed for certain uses or at certain heights for certain test results
02:01:10 results i was not aware of the regulatory regime in the uk did not want people within arconic
02:01:15 arconic even in an attempt to be helpful to provide any opinion on the suitability of particular products for particular end uses and they could not know the regulatory regime in that jurisdiction how the product would be used as part of
02:01:26 how the product would be used as part of a wider system or the nature of the particular building project and then
02:01:31 then four lines if you go down four lines from the bottom he says my sentence that debbie pushes strongly for his prescriptions in p.e was intended to mean that deborah french
02:01:43 was intended to mean that deborah french would internally within our connect make the point
02:01:46 the point that the uk market was principally a pe market and that while iconic was seeking to transition towards fr and a2 products her customers predominantly requested pe
02:01:57 requested pe now i've shown you a lot of that is claude valley right that at the end of 2014 our colleague was seeking to transition to fr core even in the uk um i believe they were starting to move
02:02:11 um i believe they were starting to move along those lines but at that point i'd already handed my notice in
02:02:16 notice in and was in a in a transition period from it
02:02:19 it so i wasn't necessarily and completely aware of everything that they were doing at that time right had you received a specific communication from claude verlay that your market should now start to
02:02:31 that your market should now start to transition from pe to fr and a2 products i don't recall receiving one no so how did you come to understand that that transition had begun um
02:02:46 that that transition had begun um i don't not sure how many may have been afterwards once i'd left is he correct when he says that internally within our college you would make the
02:02:57 within our college you would make the point that the uk market was principally a pe market
02:03:02 it always had been a pe market and therefore that was the reasoning behind that
02:03:10 my question was whether he is right to say that you internally would make that point
02:03:16 point um i wouldn't say i stressed the point that it was a pe market i said i would i would have been saying over a number of years that the majority of
02:03:27 a number of years that the majority of what we sold was pe the records of the orders that had come in from the uk market would have shown that
02:03:33 that there were very little fr orders is he right when he says that you internally within iconic would make the point that your
02:03:45 would make the point that your customers predominantly requested pe uh they certainly requested an ordered pe
02:03:54 pe isn't it the case that you would offer pe as you told us automatically rather than them asking for it
02:04:03 uh it would it could have been both cases there were some that were pe and some would we just automatically supply
02:04:10 supply pe quotes for pe i see so when he says that you you were saying internally that your customers predominantly requested pe
02:04:22 predominantly requested pe how are we to read that was it was it them asking or for pe or them ordering it in response to you offering it to them which is it i don't know because i can't answer all for what
02:04:33 answer all for what he's what he's written there no you can't but what you can do is recall the facts
02:04:40 the facts he's recalling the facts one way and i'm just putting to you his recollection of those facts i'll just try again is he right when he recalls that internally within uh arconic you would make the point
02:04:52 uh arconic you would make the point that your customers predominantly requested pe
02:04:57 yes right and when i when he says requested is it the case that as a matter of fact they would predominantly ask for it and you would respond
02:05:08 you would respond or is it the case that in fact you would routinely offer it and they would just accept it i think it was probably a bit of both
02:05:26 uh he explains here as you can see a little bit further up the paragraph i read to you
02:05:35 you that uh
02:05:39 that uh he didn't want people with an iconic providing any opinion on the suitability of particular products and particular end uses when they could not know the regulatory regime in that jurisdiction are you one
02:05:50 regime in that jurisdiction are you one of those sales people whom claude vale expected not to know the regulatory regime in england and wales yes i didn't understand the the regime fully
02:06:04 didn't understand the the regime fully did you ever receive any instruction from claude valley or anybody else at arconic
02:06:09 arconic to offer no assistance or opinion on whether raynaud55pe could be used for a particular project i don't recall
02:06:22 did you understand at the time that you even if you knew or had good reason to suspect that pe was dangerous you were still not going to offer any
02:06:33 you were still not going to offer any opinion about it but would leave it to the client to decide i didn't have enough knowledge to fear or to offer any opinions and i can't even recall being asked the question did you understand the
02:06:46 the question did you understand the instructions you had or at least the authority that you had in your job that you
02:06:51 you should simply sell what you could to whomever you could without troubling yourself to understand the fire safety regime which applied it was never it was never thoroughly
02:07:04 it was never it was never thoroughly pointed out where i was given sufficient training to fully understand the fire implications it's just not something i had a lot of dealings with right you see what mr verley appears to be saying here
02:07:15 here is that it was a policy of arconic um to make sure that salespeople such as yourself
02:07:20 yourself yourself offered no opinion at all about suitability of products for end uses because you couldn't be expected to know the regulatory regime was that the way you understood it
02:07:33 was that the way you understood it uh yeah i mean i wasn't aware that there was a policy to do with it i've not seen a copy of that policy but i didn't have the knowledge to be able to do that and certainly haven't got the training
02:07:45 got the training so as far as you were concerned is this right that it was a policy that within our conic that you as the salesperson for our colleagues should sell what you could without troubling yourself about the regulatory regime
02:07:57 regulatory regime yes yes and indeed without troubling yourself
02:08:00 yourself to understand whether the product that you were selling into a particular project
02:08:04 project was suitable under that regime yes
02:08:15 did anybody tell you that the uk might in time be transitioning to euro norms as he suggests i don't recall can we then turn to a little bit later
02:08:27 can we then turn to a little bit later in 2014 please which is the new classification in december that yeah and look at alc50397 this is a cstb certificate
02:08:39 this is a cstb certificate for european classification of radar bond pe
02:08:45 there it is the number ra 140339 under the european standard 13501 uh commercial brand renault bond 55 pe
02:08:56 uh commercial brand renault bond 55 pe riveted system see that and the issue date is the 4th of december 2014.
02:09:07 2014. and if we go to page 4 of this document we can see the classification
02:09:14 c c s 2 d naught now do you remember seeing this document at the time or around about the time it was issued no i don't
02:09:26 issued no i don't can we go next to arc50395 this is another cstb certificate for a european classification of raynor bond
02:09:38 european classification of raynor bond p e this is uh ra 13.00333 sorry zero three three three again under the european standard en13501
02:09:49 the european standard en13501 and if you look down again the dates the 4th of december 2014 you can see that at the bottom of the slide but this time the commercial brand is raining upon 55 p e cassette system
02:10:01 raining upon 55 p e cassette system and if you turn to page three you'll see that the
02:10:05 that the classification is e
02:10:09 do you remember seeing this document at or around this time i don't know don't recall it
02:10:18 now did anybody the best of your recollection contact you or update you to tell you that there were now separate classifications of pe cassette and rivet fix again in the european system one c and
02:10:32 again in the european system one c and one e
02:10:34 one e i really can't remember do you remember any discussion about these new classifications at the time i don't um as i say i'd already i was literally still go away from
02:10:47 i was literally still go away from finishing so i can't recall whether i would have been involved in that at the time or not indeed and i think you left our iconic at the end of 2014 didn't you yes i did and you left iconic uh for a
02:11:00 yes i did and you left iconic uh for a new role at taylor maxwell didn't you that's right i want to turn to that topic now
02:11:06 topic now uh you say in your second witness statement there's nothing to look at it but it's paragraph 12. the reason for you leaving iconic and joining taylor maxwell is that you wanted to work in a team
02:11:18 wanted to work in a team again in an office environment is that right that's right and at arconic is it right that vince meakins replaced you oh yes he did but is it right he didn't
02:11:30 oh yes he did but is it right he didn't come in for some months i think may 2015.
02:11:35 2015. what some months i'm not i couldn't confirm when that when it was but it was some months after i'd left did anybody ask you to uh give vince mckeon some kind of induction or handover
02:11:47 handover no do you know do you happen to know whether vince meakins got any kind of handover from you or induction i no i can't i can't answer that
02:12:00 can't answer that you say in your statement to paragraph 12 that you may have spoken to peter frolic or gwyneld as part of a handover process is did you do that
02:12:09 do that i don't recall whether i did or not it would have been in the early days of me leaving
02:12:14 leaving i remember giving vince some product information that i'd got left over he had everything that i've got product information brochures and some samples i think right so you gave him the bba
02:12:26 right so you gave him the bba certificate did you among other things no i didn't give him any documents i just gave him physical hard copies of brochures and some samples i believe
02:12:37 samples i believe um when you were leaving did you have any kind of exit interview no sort of download of what you knew so that could be passed on no right
02:12:50 you say you left some brochures behind were those up to date it's the best i don't recall whether what the dates were on them now peter frederick says that between
02:13:02 now peter frederick says that between january and may 2015 he took a more active role uh besides gwen alderandange in the uk uh more so than he would normally be the case
02:13:14 case and assist with ensuring that uk sales inquiries are dealt with uh was that something you could tell us about or had you left by the time that he started doing that do you think
02:13:26 that he started doing that do you think he certainly wasn't doing that while i was there
02:13:29 was there right um do you remember whether iconic customers
02:13:37 were told that they could continue to contact you in the event of any queries in respect to projects that you were handling at the time of your departure no i
02:13:48 your departure no i certainly didn't have any contact with those customers after i'd left right you see mr frederick says in his statement it's paragraph 39 on page 11 that you would act as an interim contact
02:13:59 that you would act as an interim contact for uk sales and would direct customer inquiries and business through taylor maxwell to arconic is that right well tony maxwell were buying uh were
02:14:12 tony maxwell were buying uh were were buying through uh a fabricator um at the time so that would have been the only reason i certainly wouldn't have been involved with them for any other reason i'd left their employment yes
02:14:23 employment yes but although you'd left their employment did you not continue to act as a source of information for ongoing projects that you left behind um no i think there was one or two
02:14:35 um no i think there was one or two questions
02:14:36 questions in the very very first couple of weeks that they may have asked me one or two questions about things but i can't recall what they were but certainly no more than that i'd got a new job to do it was
02:14:49 a new job to do it was no i wasn't involved in in anything else yeah
02:14:52 yeah did you meet vince mckinnon's uh i met him on a couple of occasions i met him to
02:14:59 him to i met him at one of the fabricators i believe for a meeting and that was to do with some taylor maxwell work and i obviously met him to hand over the brochures right
02:15:12 brochures right was that meeting when you handed over the brochures presumably in may 2015 after he'd arrived some months after you'd left it would have been after he'd arrived jess
02:15:23 arrived jess where were the directions in the meantime were they kept in your office at home or have you given them to somebody uh at our comic to look after pending that speaking's arrival no there was i i would have kept them here in my office at home and then
02:15:35 here in my office at home and then handed them to him i believe i met him at a service station somewhere right did you have a discussion with him at the service station about anything in particular he should know and taking up your role uh i don't
02:15:47 and taking up your role uh i don't believe so no
02:15:55 can we look and see what you say about taylor maxwell in your second statement please this is uh the second statement of page four paragraph 13.
02:16:08 you say after leaving our comic
02:16:13 i commenced work with taylor maxwell a brick timber and facade's supplier i joined as national cladding manager and in early 2018 became national tanning director my role at taylor maxwell is very
02:16:25 my role at taylor maxwell is very different from what i was doing at arconic
02:16:27 arconic taylor maxwell is further up the supply chain than iconic and does not supply single components used in cladding systems for example renault bond rather it recommends and supplies whole tabling systems to the construction
02:16:38 tabling systems to the construction industry
02:16:38 industry including cladding installers tiller maxwell does not manufacture those systems it sources them from specialist manufacturers and then sells them to the market when you say further up the supply chain
02:16:50 when you say further up the supply chain there do you do you mean that for example iconic could supply cladding to taylor maxwell cladding panels to taylor maxwell who would then sell it on as part of a whole system
02:17:02 whole system no rena bond would taylor maxwell would still have to buy the materials through a fabricator yes i see so fur there one further up the supply
02:17:13 so fur there one further up the supply chain then from our complex is that right they are sorry too further up the supply chain yes i see um would it it is it right there that iconic would
02:17:24 it is it right there that iconic would still be supplying cladding for transmission after fabrication to taylor maxwell so that turner maxwell could then incorporate them into it into its whole system so an installer
02:17:35 into its whole system so an installer would
02:17:36 would win a planning contract and then would send details to taylor maxwell of the panels that they required that would be what they
02:17:46 what they would tell maxwell worked with a fabricator who would then liaise with a manufacturer so taylor maxwell what was henry maxwell doing other than acting as a middleman were they actually
02:17:57 acting as a middleman were they actually building the clubbing system no matter where i'll act as a marketing and uh sales
02:18:03 uh sales uh company right so they were another sales
02:18:07 sales link between the fabricator and the installer
02:18:10 installer yes they purely buy materials in from manufacturers and supply them all they don't just they don't hold stocks of anything they just act as a sales and marketing company
02:18:21 act as a sales and marketing company right
02:18:22 right okay uh what i'm really trying to get at is
02:18:26 is is whether after you had joined taylor maxwell you were in an indirect sense a customer of arconic yes yes then in the same witness state
02:18:37 yes yes then in the same witness state at page 14 page 14 paragraph 49 you say as noted above
02:18:49 after my departure from our comic i took up a role at taylor maxwell selling whole facade systems to end users this was a very different sys this was very different to the position of arconic which sold only one
02:19:00 position of arconic which sold only one component of those systems i've therefore since had more exposure to the uk requirements in respect to fire certification although it is not something that i specialize in at around the same time the industry in the uk was i believe
02:19:12 the industry in the uk was i believe beginning to take an increased interest in the fire performance of clouding systems generally can i just understand this evidence a bit better are you saying here that you understood more fire performance because you sold
02:19:24 more fire performance because you sold entire facades
02:19:28 the the exposure to fire was obviously after
02:19:32 after the tragedy of grenfell um as you know an awful lot of people became far more
02:19:38 far more um aware of of the details around fire so yes my knowledge has increased significantly since then on that um
02:19:50 i just want to explore that you say just looking at this you say in the third sentence having explained the difference between iconic container maxwell
02:20:00 maxwell you say i am therefore since had more exposure to the uk requirements in respect of fire certification it looks as if what you're saying there is that that great familiarity with ex
02:20:11 is that that great familiarity with ex with uk requirements in respect of fire certification um came to you after you joined taylor maxwell
02:20:19 maxwell in early 2015 rather than only after the grenfell tower fire in june 2017. we were certainly at taylor maxwell because we were dealing direct with the installer the installers were our
02:20:31 installer the installers were our customers we were getting more questions around uh information to do with all sorts of specifications which we would have to get from the manufacturers we were dealing with yes thank you did you learn after you
02:20:43 yes thank you did you learn after you joined taylor maxwell about the uk building regulations and the fire safety regime in it i started to look into them in more detail yes because of the
02:20:54 detail yes because of the customers that we were dealing with did you get any training on those matters when you arrived at taylor maxwell
02:21:02 no we would take all that information from the
02:21:05 from the we don't advise taylor maxwell don't advise on fire that any information that's requested we get that from the manufacturers of the product
02:21:13 product we don't advise on fire
02:21:18 did you learn about the uk fire education regime national class naught
02:21:25 naught and the european fair classification regime once you've joined taylor maxwell as i say i've i've learned more since that time and i've been i've had more um
02:21:36 i've had more um i've had more contact with that type of information purely because of of who we're dealing with and who we're working with but again we wouldn't be advising on that yes
02:21:47 that yes i'm trying to be specific here on the phone a bit did you come to learn about the uk fire classification regime and the european classification regime once you joined
02:21:58 classification regime once you joined taylor maxwell i'm asking you about this two regimes specifically i started to become more aware of both after i'd left alconic after i'd left alcoa
02:22:10 you started to become aware more aware of both did there come a time after you joined taylor maxwell before the grandfather fire when you were familiar at least passing passingly familiar with
02:22:23 passingly familiar with the fire classification regime which applied
02:22:27 applied in england and wales i was becoming more familiar with it because we were we'd got more involvement with it but i couldn't i can't tell you when that started it was just over a gradual period of time
02:22:38 period of time yes did there come a time when you were surprised to find that you now knew things that you had not learned to darconic
02:22:46 yes can you give me an example no it was just my general knowledge of of the
02:22:54 of the um of the certifications what did you come to know generally about the certification regime that you didn't know at arconic that surprised you that you hadn't learned that does it say it was just general
02:23:06 does it say it was just general information my knowledge was just building and developing uh over a period of time because of the inquiries and the conversations we were having with customers
02:23:17 customers and the information we were getting back from uh various different suppliers on various different product types did there come a time when you thought to yourself i didn't know that well i was at our comic i wish i
02:23:30 that well i was at our comic i wish i had
02:23:32 had think i've got an awful lot more knowledge now than i ever had and yes if i had
02:23:36 i had if i had known that then yes it would have been a lot better i mean specifically once you joined taylor maxwell and started in your role there
02:23:45 there did there come a time in that role before the grenfell terrifier when you discovered something that you didn't know at arconic but wish you had known i can't recall that specifically no
02:23:58 mr chairman i'm going to turn to a different topic uh i'm afraid i'm about i'm not quite finished i'm not far from the end but it's i think it's going to be impossible to finish with this witness i regret to say apologies to
02:24:10 say apologies to to her primarily and to you um tonight but i'm not going to be very long tomorrow morning uh i've spoken to miss grange who takes the next witness mr
02:24:21 grange who takes the next witness mr meekins and she is um i'm not contents the right word but she's um
02:24:26 she's um not unhappy about me taking a little bit of tomorrow morning to finish off um mrs french i'm in your hands about what we should do next well mr miller give us all some idea of how much longer you think you might
02:24:38 how much longer you think you might require with ms french probably about an hour i i would think up to the mid-morning break would be safe and and then then perhaps a little bit more to allow for any further questions
02:24:49 more to allow for any further questions to come from core participants but um that that's a i'm
02:24:53 i'm that's heck of a reasonable estimate all right well it's i'm sure miss french would like to finish today but i think if your current estimate is an
02:25:04 i think if your current estimate is an hour plus
02:25:05 hour plus we'd be very unwise to try and carry on this evening i think it's been a long enough day for everyone um miss french you heard what mr millett said
02:25:14 said um i'm afraid he's got more questions and we're going to have to ask you to make yourself available at least for part of tomorrow morning i hope that isn't going to be too inconvenient no that's fine you can manage that all
02:25:26 no that's fine you can manage that all right well that's very good thank you very much well in that case we'll stop now and we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow and uh hope that it doesn't last too
02:25:39 and uh hope that it doesn't last too long
02:25:40 long okay and then mr millet you will keep your questions i'm sure as confined as you can so that we can start mr meekins without
02:25:51 so that we can start mr meekins without more delay than is inevitable
02:25:55 right well on that basis as i say we'll stop now and we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow
02:26:00 tomorrow please again because we're breaking overnight
02:26:03 overnight please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it over the break in the proceedings all right yes thank you very much i look forward to seeing you tomorrow
02:26:14 forward to seeing you tomorrow thank you thank you good night
02:26:31 you