Evidence from Deborah French, Arconic UK sales manager, about marketing Reynobond cladding and knowledge of fire safety classifications
00:00:03 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing i'm here as usual with my fellow panel members miss uh thuriya istafan and mr ali akbar
00:00:14 miss uh thuriya istafan and mr ali akbar good morning good morning everyone uh before we go back to the witness can i please just remind those of you who are not
00:00:24 are not taking an active part in the hearing to keep your cameras and microphones switched off at all times to avoid uh difficulties with the technology
00:00:35 technology thank you very much now today we're going to continue hearing evidence from miss deborah french so we are now going over to
00:00:43 over to see her ms french are you there yes diane thank you sir good morning can you see me and can you hear me yes i can thank you good thank you very
00:00:54 yes i can thank you good thank you very much um
00:00:56 much um no you i don't really need to remind you of everything i said yesterday but i think it would be a good thing if you could just confirm as you did yesterday that you're
00:01:07 as you did yesterday that you're alone in the room from which you're giving evidence yes i am sir thank you that you have no documents or other materials with you no none and that your mobile phone is in
00:01:18 no none and that your mobile phone is in another room and you don't have any other electronic device uh which is capable of receiving messages no nothing sir very good thank you very much indeed well as yesterday your legal
00:01:30 well as yesterday your legal representatives are here as it were in on the hearing so that if they feel it's necessary to intervene they they can do so um i hope we'll avoid the
00:01:41 they can do so um i hope we'll avoid the sort of problem we had yesterday with uh with the transcript i i'm confident that we shall and as yesterday we'll have a break during the morning and the afternoon uh about halfway
00:01:53 and the afternoon uh about halfway through
00:01:55 through um is there anything you'd like to raise before we continue with your evidence no nothing thank you right well in that case i'll invite mr millet to continue his questioning yes mr millet
00:02:06 his questioning yes mr millet chairman thank you very much good morning mr chairman good morning members of the panel good morning ms french uh i want to uh ask you now please about uh your presentations that you
00:02:17 about uh your presentations that you would give from time to time that you refer to in your second witness statement
00:02:22 statement uh if we can go to your second witness statement please at page five
00:02:30 you say at paragraph 21 if we can just have that expanded a little bit please uh that you gave a presentation uh or prepared a presentation for the riba
00:02:43 or prepared a presentation for the riba it's part of a continuing professional development program and you refer to that in the first two or three sentences of that paragraph my question is a general one rather than focusing
00:02:55 general one rather than focusing specifically on that presentation did you give presentations to other organizations involving architects or designers
00:03:06 um i certainly did with the with reba i did on occasions do it with um
00:03:17 main contract as if i was invited by fabricators for example but as a general rule it was one-to-one with an architect rather than um you know a prac we did
00:03:30 um you know a prac we did cpd prac with architects practices um which would be over a a lunchtime period so on and off uh and were you invited to give those
00:03:42 uh and were you invited to give those presentations or did you uh did you promote was it part of a promotion by our comic if it was with reba or architectural cpd deliveries it was generally
00:03:54 cpd deliveries it was generally something that we were trying to promote or we were invited by architects to to attend uh if it was with other clients it was it was generally them requesting us to
00:04:07 it was generally them requesting us to do it
00:04:08 do it were you accredited to give cpd presentations to architects we had one presentation that was reba accredited to deliver to architects in a formal cpd
00:04:21 to deliver to architects in a formal cpd environment you say you don't believe you actually ever gave the particular iraba presentation that you refer to is that correct uh yes i don't think it was we'd had it
00:04:33 uh yes i don't think it was we'd had it approved by the by reba but it was never actually delivered
00:04:37 delivered um but in order to give that kind of presentation and to put it together you must have had some kind of technical knowledge about cladding is that is that fair um the information
00:04:50 is that is that fair um the information that was put together in that presentation a lot of that was taken from the
00:04:55 from the information already within our conic um and any other from brochures and various things like that then there was a set text that would have gone with it yes
00:05:06 text that would have gone with it yes but in order to give the presentation am i right in thinking that you would have had to have had uh at least some familiarity uh working familiarity with the
00:05:17 uh working familiarity with the documents
00:05:17 documents that formed the presentation um yeah i would have had enough knowledge to have been able to answer some questions but in terms of the more technical details with relation to
00:05:29 technical details with relation to you know wind loads or build ups then i would have taken questions and and sent that back over to merck's time afterwards so you would have had some technical knowledge at least enough to be able
00:05:40 knowledge at least enough to be able to enable field questions from the floor at the end of the presentation on some subjects not on all no what about on fire safety no i would never have gone into
00:05:51 safety no i would never have gone into discussions with fire on on anybody as i've said before i i didn't have the the knowledge or the experience to do that on fire were you accompanied by uh anybody from
00:06:02 were you accompanied by uh anybody from the technical sales team when giving these presentations no so what would happen if somebody asked a question at the end of the presentation about fire safety such as what are the tests that
00:06:15 safety such as what are the tests that underlie
00:06:16 underlie the claim that pe standard has class naught or should be regarded as class naught
00:06:23 naught i would have arranged to to have the necessary documents sent to them or i would have referred it to our technical team in mexican i would not have answered that myself why were you being sent into the field
00:06:34 why were you being sent into the field to give these presentations if you weren't able to answer a question such as that and i as i said i've had limited technical experience to be able to answer
00:06:44 answer uh certain points i would gather the information and i would i would get it i would get back to them afterwards and doing the best you can with your recollection do you recall any particular kinds of questions that you were repeatedly asked
00:06:56 were repeatedly asked uh at the end of these kinds of presentations it was um it was unusual to get an awful lot of questions at the end of cp formal cpds um they
00:07:08 formal cpds um they tended to uh the the audience that you were delivering it to tended to come in they listened and then they would they would basically disperse and go off um
00:07:19 um so i don't recall having uh masses of questions at the end there might have been one or two about projects or colours mostly or samples that they wanted because they were looking at specific projects
00:07:31 were looking at specific projects very very very rare would we get a lot of technical questions do you remember ever being asked a question about fire classification for i can't recall being asked that
00:07:44 for i can't recall being asked that specific question let's talk about a presentation that you think you did give if we can go to uh paragraph 96 of this statement on page 31 please
00:08:01 uh and uh you can see that this paragraph is under the heading genius facade
00:08:05 facade simcoe and you describe in it a uh well not only a relationship with genius facades connected to a business called simcoe
00:08:17 connected to a business called simcoe but also a presentation that you gave and if you look about a third of the way down that paragraph you you say there that you gave a presentation you said i gave a presentation to cinco on this project in around may
00:08:29 to cinco on this project in around may 2011.
00:08:31 2011. and that project as you described earlier in the paragraph was was pendleton which was a large project uh
00:08:37 uh in manchester or salford involving three buildings
00:08:41 buildings is it right that genius facades was a customer of yours yes they were and you say as i've just shown you that they are connected or were connected to a business called
00:08:53 business called simcoe external framing solutions or simcoe if you like is that is that right they were right now
00:09:01 now is it right that the connection that you had was through a man called john simmons and possibly also graham smith yes um is it right that they were
00:09:13 yes um is it right that they were partners in simcoe i believe so yes and is it right that john simmons and graham smith also own and run owned and ran genius facades
00:09:24 own and run owned and ran genius facades together does that sound right to you uh certainly john simmons ran genius facades but i'm i'm not entirely sure of the connection of graham with genius
00:09:35 graham with genius very good well let me just read into the record one reference it's john simmons his first witness statement at met3040808 at page one um let's look at the presentation about
00:09:46 um let's look at the presentation about the
00:09:46 the pendleton's project and this is in your exhibit df5 at page 10 that's met 3053173 page 10
00:10:02 please and we can see on the front that if we have that expanded a little bit please you'll see that it's uh reynabond rayna lux aluminium rayno bond
00:10:13 bond see that uh underneath that it says reyna bond working with simcoe pendleton's project manchester so is this an example before we go into
00:10:26 so is this an example before we go into that we go into the document of you working with a a a cladding subcontractor specialist subcontractor it was on this particular project yes
00:10:39 particular project yes and would that be quite a common occurrence that you would work together with
00:10:44 with a cladding subcontractor such as simcoe um in terms of pulling together a presentation of this detail this was the only one that we did it with
00:10:55 with on in this nature let's look at page 14 please um you can see that before we leave that page i should have pointed at you this is may 2011.
00:11:06 is may 2011. if we go to page 14 um this uh says
00:11:11 i'll wait for that to come up uh it says ray libon 55 specification details for pendleton's manchester cinco and if we just
00:11:23 cinco and if we just go back to your second statement of page 96 again please paragraph 31 you say there uh the the pendleton project
00:11:34 and cassette in rainbow 55 pe
00:11:40 you say that about a third of the way down the page in front of you it was an unusual design which i think incorporated both rivet and cassette systems
00:11:47 systems yeah and if we then go back to the um if you go back to the presentation please at page 15. let's look at the last two bullet points
00:11:58 let's look at the last two bullet points together
00:11:59 together have those blown up it says uh reynabond has a bba certificate hard copy available with this presentation and the last bullet point relevant uk
00:12:11 and the last bullet point relevant uk and
00:12:11 and european fire certificates does that tell us that in may 2011 you knew at least enough about the european fire certificates to know that
00:12:23 european fire certificates to know that they were relevant to uk customers your uk customers i'm not sure they i would have known that they were completely relevant in what context they were relevant i was taking i was pulling information
00:12:35 i was taking i was pulling information out of
00:12:36 out of other marketing information and brochures to pull that document together for
00:12:41 for uh for a customer what was relevant about the
00:12:44 about the european fire certificates on this project
00:12:49 project as i say i would have been just taking information from other parts of the documentation that was
00:12:55 that was available within other marketing information and putting that on that document
00:13:00 document why would you do that unless you thought that the european fire certificates were relevant to this uk customer and this uk project because that text would have been available somewhere in another document and i
00:13:11 another document and i i would have just used it that in that format
00:13:14 format unthinkingly just cut and pasted it from another document yes which document do you know no i don't recall
00:13:26 did you not think that it was important as part of the sale uh that the customer either simcoe or the end customer could be provided with the european fire certificates uh if they'd asked
00:13:40 fire certificates uh if they'd asked if they'd advise we would have provided it for them but i wouldn't have known uh whether it was relevant or not when you were cutting and pasting this last bullet point from some other document into this one did you not apply
00:13:52 document into this one did you not apply your mind to the question of whether or not fast
00:13:55 not fast if european fire certificates were relevant
00:13:58 relevant no not i don't recall doing that no so this is just a as a kneejer cut and paste without thinking about no it was it was putting together some information to
00:14:09 to uh present to a to a client um and is say if they'd wanted information further than then we would have provided it for them i feel bad to suggest you miss french
00:14:20 i feel bad to suggest you miss french that you would not in fact have referred to
00:14:22 to the relevant uk and european bar certificates you wouldn't have felt it necessary to mention the european foster because unless you knew that they were relevant to your customer here as i say i would
00:14:35 to your customer here as i say i would have taken that information from another document
00:14:38 document and if customers had asked for the information then i would have made sure that they had the relevant documents can we just go back to your second witness statement please at page 13.
00:14:54 and let's look together at paragraph 47 please
00:14:58 please you say there i did not spend much time if any
00:15:02 if any considering the european fire testing regime and what the various ratings meant
00:15:07 meant neither did i think them relevant to the uk market
00:15:10 uk market if the european fire testing regime was as you thought not relevant to the uk market
00:15:18 is your explanation for why your presentation referred to them that you simply didn't think about as it said i would have taken that that text from
00:15:28 text from another document and i would have put it on to that presentation without necessarily you know thinking what i was putting on there was
00:15:39 thinking what i was putting on there was it your habit to make build up presentations for customers
00:15:44 customers for substantial products like pendleton's without really applying your mind to whether what you were putting in to your presentations was relevant
00:15:55 to your presentations was relevant i would have been putting together information that i thought was relevant and correct at the time and it would have been for other people to to ask me questions as to whether there was other information they needed and i
00:16:06 was other information they needed and i would have provided that for them see what i'm really suggesting to you being blunt about it is that you knew very well that european fire certifications were relevant to the uk market because that's why you put it in
00:16:17 market because that's why you put it in your presentation no i don't recall thinking along those details to say technically i wouldn't have been thinking along those lines if people had wanted information i would
00:16:28 if people had wanted information i would have provided it for them now we see that you also refer to this presentation to the bba certificate available uh what did you think was the purpose of the bba certificate
00:16:40 purpose of the bba certificate which we looked at yesterday referring to the euro class b test pass to standard pe if it was irrelevant to the uk market
00:16:51 to the uk market as as i explained yesterday i i didn't understand that didn't didn't my knowledge of the detail in that bba was something that other people would have been asking
00:17:02 other people would have been asking questions about and i i really wouldn't have given it um you know too much thought at the time as to whether it was or wasn't relevant does it come to this that you may you
00:17:13 does it come to this that you may you didn't know the details of the classification regime applicable in europe euro system but you did know that it was relevant to your your
00:17:22 your your uk customers but if they ask questions about it that was a matter for them in terms of the bba if there was like i said i've said before i wasn't technically trained i've had no
00:17:34 i wasn't technically trained i've had no technical training i was there to provide information and if customers had questions i would have asked me and i would have made sure i got them the appropriate information and documents i was not
00:17:46 information and documents i was not qualified to understand the details that were set out in those you may not have been qualified to understand the details but i am suggesting to you that you knew enough to know that the euro classification
00:17:59 to know that the euro classification regime for fire safety was relevant to your uk market no i wouldn't have done and if you didn't know it was relevant or didn't
00:18:10 didn't know it was relevant or didn't think it was relevant to the uk market why did you think it was referred to in the bba certificate at all i don't know it's not something that i picked up or would have even questioned at the time so you
00:18:22 even questioned at the time so you didn't pick up does that mean you didn't notice its presence in the bba certificate i don't i don't recall what i i don't recall what i remember in looking at that document at the time
00:18:34 looking at that document at the time can we look at your witness evidence about how this slide deck was created this is back to page 31
00:18:41 page 31 paragraph 96 again
00:18:50 and you say here about halfway down the page
00:18:53 page that we've got in front of you open on the screen you say i gave it i gave a presentation to simcoe on this project in around may 2011 which included reference to both the bba certificate
00:19:05 reference to both the bba certificate and the product having both uk and european fire certificates two copies of this presentation are included in df5 and i think that the contents of these presentations was based on a standard archonic
00:19:16 was based on a standard archonic presentation and the specific input was obtained from claude vela in relation to the 30-year warranty
00:19:21 warranty and eve bealman on other points peter frederick was aware of the the presentation now you say this was taken as you told us this morning as well
00:19:31 well from another presentation do you remember whether the claims about the european certification in the original presentation which you lifted this from uh were there or were they added
00:19:42 or were they added following input from somebody at our conic
00:19:45 conic i really don't recall the the exact detail of where that where that information came from into in relation to the question you've just asked
00:19:56 just asked now you say that claude vela had input and peter frolic was aware of the presentations i just shown you did either of those individuals write any part of this presentation i had information from them in relation
00:20:09 i had information from them in relation to certain aspects of that presentation and i would have taken information and put that whole presentation together myself
00:20:20 presentation together myself they were both aware of it what aspects of the presentation did eve billman provide
00:20:29 provide um the there was some information on the paint uh that was being offered in relation to the 30-year warranty um it's unusual to
00:20:42 30-year warranty um it's unusual to offer a warranty of that of that period and eve billman pulled together some information on the uh the gloss levels and um
00:20:55 the gloss levels and um the way the gloss would would behave over
00:20:58 over here over that 30-year period did either of those
00:21:02 of those or any of those three individuals suggest to you that you should refer to the european minute i don't i don't recall either or any of those those individuals
00:21:13 either or any of those those individuals look over the slides in the final presentation that you gave um i some of the information that that was in that presentation uh some of the images and some of the
00:21:26 uh some of the images and some of the wording would have come from them and then i will would have pulled it into that overall presentation and as a general question um we looked at diagram 40 yesterday but just to be very clear are
00:21:39 yesterday but just to be very clear are you telling the inquiry that at this stage at least 2011 you did not know that the that approved document b
00:21:50 document b forming guidance as part of the building regulations referred to national and european via classification standards
00:22:01 no i wouldn't have known that so you wouldn't have known that did you know that no i don't recall i did
00:22:12 did i'd like to look at your knowledge of fires involving cladding starting in 2009 if i can can we start with your your second witness statement please so this is the
00:22:23 witness statement please so this is the same statement we're in uh at page 34 a paragraph 100 and he and you give a list here of previous files
00:22:38 that you do recall uh you you say uh save for the fires in the uae referred to above this is the third line uh i'm not aware of any other fire
00:22:49 uh i'm not aware of any other fire involving acm i vaguely recall a fire in or near paris but i can't remember any details uh including whether it involved acm and then you go on to say that you don't remember anything about
00:23:01 remember anything about the melbourne fire now in 2009 there were two cladding fires i want to ask you about um the first is one in bucharest at the millennium business center in july 2009.
00:23:13 millennium business center in july 2009. were you aware of that fire no i wasn't uh didn't did say i take it that nobody at our colleague discussed this fire with you told you about it
00:23:24 with you told you about it alerted you to it is that right i've never heard no never heard it never heard it never heard of it was there any discussion in 2009 do you remember
00:23:34 remember about a pe called cladding fire not that i recall no
00:23:42 no is there any particular discussion about the safety of pe called acm in architectural application in 2009 that you recall within our comic not that i recall no
00:23:53 did mr verle ever tell you in the context of a cladding fire that pe core can be dangerous when it comes to architecture
00:24:05 dangerous when it comes to architecture i don't recall
00:24:09 do you remember that there was another fire in july 2009 which had fatal consequences in south london in a building called lachenal house
00:24:22 no i don't recall you don't recall you did
00:24:26 did you weren't aware in 2009 or the years following 2009 of the latin house fire is that right no i've no i've not heard of lachen house
00:24:38 even today not here no it doesn't no right uh moving forward then in time to 2011
00:24:50 moving forward then in time to 2011 by 2011 you had been at our comic for around four years or so is that right
00:24:57 right uh um yes look at some documents in 2011. i'm going to show you some documents which show that there were further european classification tests
00:25:08 european classification tests done on rayna bond pe in that year at the cstb in france and the first one i'm going to show you is a test in february 2011 of reynabond pe in rivet fix
00:25:22 of reynabond pe in rivet fix and this is at arc 50383
00:25:35 this is a reaction to fire classification report ra 1100 32 done under en 13501.1 it's the european regime and you can see
00:25:48 it's the european regime and you can see on the page in front of you there that it's
00:25:50 it's it was a test done on rayna bond 55 pe riveted system so p e rivet uh with the date of issue of this report of the 9th of february 2011.
00:26:01 of the 9th of february 2011. and if we go uh on in this document to page 3
00:26:13 we can see the classification i apologize pick page four the classification and it obtains a b one sorry b s one d naught you see that yes
00:26:26 sorry b s one d naught you see that yes there was also a test done in june 2011. well sorry i should ask you first of all were you aware of the uh of this test um
00:26:37 uh of this test um not i wouldn't have necessarily been specifically aware i don't recall being totally aware of it did anybody iconic tell you that reyna bond pe in a rivet fix
00:26:51 that reyna bond pe in a rivet fix had been tested in 2011 and had obtained a bs-1 d naught i don't recall right there was also a test and i'll just tell you
00:27:04 a test and i'll just tell you what happened there was a test in 2011 in june of that year on renault pe and cassette fix in which large pieces fell from the panel there was widespread fire on the surface
00:27:16 there was widespread fire on the surface and the heat performance was so poor that the test had to be stopped as a result of which there was no classification other than f do you remember that no i don't remember
00:27:28 do you remember that no i don't remember i i'm going to give a reference but i'm not going to take you to the document it's met305315a page 172 do you remember that in october 2011 arconic had another
00:27:42 that in october 2011 arconic had another test
00:27:43 test performed on reynobond pe in cassette fix which achieved a class e no i don't recall you don't know that no one ever told you about that either did
00:27:55 one ever told you about that either did they
00:27:56 they no i'm not that i recall no would you have been would you have expected to be made aware of those test results
00:28:08 if it was relevant for for the uk market then
00:28:11 then yes but otherwise not really would you have been expect would you have expected to have been told that the cassette fix variant of rayner
00:28:23 that the cassette fix variant of rayner bond 55 pe had failed a european fire test to such an extent that it could only be classified as an f
00:28:35 could only be classified as an f if again if it had been relevant to the any impact on the the uk then then yes how could it conceivably not have been relevant to its impact on the uk given that that
00:28:48 to its impact on the uk given that that was one of the variants of pe that you were selling in the uk market
00:28:54 market and as i say if if they'd seen that it was necessary for me to know that for the uk then yes i would have expected to know
00:29:01 know can we then turn to a meeting in freiburg or freiburg this is at met 3053158
00:29:08 3053158 underscore p04 page 35 please
00:29:21 now this is a document recording a meeting which i do not think you were present at but let me show you what it says uh it's written by claude verla and it was a meeting in uh freeburg freiburg
00:29:35 a meeting in uh freeburg freiburg on the 5th of july 2011 as you can see with me
00:29:39 with me people present frank ritter 3a people of aap
00:29:43 aap merxin president peter froelich and claude verlet you see that yes and if you uh
00:29:52 scroll down to the table on the first page
00:29:55 page you can see some products you'll see a table
00:30:00 table uh just just to be clear frank ritter of 3a was the manufacturer of aluco bond is that right i don't know these 3a was the
00:30:12 i don't know these 3a was the manufacturer if not mr ritter himself in the table you can see that there's the product the system
00:30:18 system and the european class standard set out there
00:30:22 there and you can see that uh what is said above that table uh is european fire regulation remind the european fire fire reaction
00:30:34 remind the european fire fire reaction classification norm em13501 is testing the product in his installation conditions after the tests we did the classifications for raynor bonding cassettes and rivet screwed system r and they're set out
00:30:46 screwed system r and they're set out reynabon
00:30:47 reynabon 55pe riveted screw b s1 d naught rayna bond 55 pe cassette e and then at the fr results are set out below that
00:30:58 below that in each case b s1 d naught did you know that arconic was presenting its cassette variant of rb55pe
00:31:09 its cassette variant of rb55pe as class e to a leukobond 3a in july 2011. did you know that as a fact
00:31:17 fact no i didn't can you explain how you did not know that fact no i can't is that a fact that you would have expected to be told
00:31:28 have expected to be told if they'd have seen it seen it necessary and it was relevant to to my role then yes but no i don't recall it given that it is radically different from what the
00:31:39 it is radically different from what the bba certificate states about the test results for reyna bond 55 p e as standard i suggest to you that you
00:31:52 as standard i suggest to you that you would have wanted to know that so far from being a b in cassette it was e
00:32:06 if it was relevant to the role i was doing then i would have expected to be told about it uh can we look down to the bottom of
00:32:17 uh can we look down to the bottom of that same page then please
00:32:25 under next steps but below the uh below the table uh it says for the moment even if we know that pe material in cassette has a
00:32:36 know that pe material in cassette has a bad behavior exposed to fire we can still work with national regulations who are not as restrictive some countries spain dot dot dot are already working with the n13501
00:32:48 already working with the n13501 standards
00:32:49 standards and the pe in cassettes is no more usable there evolution of fire regulation will put the pe out of the market in the coming months
00:33:00 months etc uh my question is did you realize yourselves that arconic considered that pe cassette had bad behavior in fire
00:33:12 no i no no i didn't were you aware notwithstanding what we can see in this document
00:33:18 document that arconic intended to continue to sell
00:33:21 sell renault bond pe to countries that are not working solely with the european classification system i wouldn't have had that knowledge to to or thought about whether
00:33:34 or thought about whether that it was relevant or not it's not something that i was involved in day to day that would have been from the technical team and other other senior management people at merck signed to me making those decisions not me
00:33:46 the countries that would would not we're not working solely with the european classification system including the uk didn't they i really don't know you didn't know that at the time you didn't know that there was a dual
00:33:58 you didn't know that there was a dual system operating here no i wouldn't have had any reason to know that would have been dealt with by other people the technical people and the and other people within merckstein that's not something i would have been
00:34:09 that's not something i would have been involved in did nobody ever communicate the strategy to you that iconic was going to continue to sell
00:34:16 to sell pe cassette notwithstanding its bad behavior in fire in the uk market precisely because it had a dual system yeah not that i recall no
00:34:27 yeah not that i recall no we moved to 2012 then in the chronology and i want to ask you about more cladding fires in that year can we start with your second witness statement please page 29 paragraph 93.1
00:34:49 paragraph 93.1 and in that paragraph you say and i should just preface this actually with the headache companies involved in the grenfell tower refurbishment with regard to the relevant companies
00:35:00 with regard to the relevant companies and organizations that were involved in the grenfell tower refurbishment i would say as follows cep i had worked with cep on a number of projects in the past on all of which they had ordered reyna bond pe
00:35:12 bond pe one notable project was the childcare's estate in camden which was a substantial project involving five residential towers it was a significant project for which reynabont had been used in a rivet
00:35:23 reynabont had been used in a rivet system
00:35:24 system i remember that there had been a small fire at one of the towers taploe on the chalkiest estate in 2012 for which replacement sheets of rainer bond had been ordered while i cannot recall the fire at taplow
00:35:35 while i cannot recall the fire at taplow tower specifically i do remember undertaking cep's original order
00:35:39 order of reyna bond for the childcare's tower the project had if you just turned over the page originally been supplied with ethel bond a competitor brand of acm but it was
00:35:50 a competitor brand of acm but it was replaced with renamed after a number of issues with delamination now i can pause there i think uh and ask you to go
00:35:58 you to go up to page 34 four pages on paragraph 100 we've looked at a moment ago
00:36:05 ago just coming back to it you pick out the uae fire and the vague recollection of a fire
00:36:11 fire in paris um but no other fires you say apart from the chalcott's fire were you all specifically aware of the
00:36:22 were you all specifically aware of the childcare's fire because you had been involved in the reordering of the panels is that why you knew about that one yeah the fact that we'd had
00:36:32 been some emails from cep requesting some replacement panels because of a small fire you also refer as i showed you before to the fire
00:36:44 as i showed you before to the fire in or near paris do you remember that when that was i don't recall that no
00:36:52 no was it the mermos tower of fire in ruby in 2012 may 2012. i say i don't i i don't recall the name or
00:37:03 or any specific details i just know remember hearing something about there being one
00:37:08 being one right what was the source of your hearing about there being one you remember
00:37:12 remember i really can't remember in our comic or on the news or some publication i really can't remember let's go to met 30s 53158 please
00:37:24 let's go to met 30s 53158 please underscore p06 page 171
00:37:38 met3053158 underscore p06 h171
00:37:52 yes thank you very much uh this uh appears to be uh part of a sales team meeting in mid-2012
00:38:03 a sales team meeting in mid-2012 and if we go to page 189 that document
00:38:12 we can see that here a a slide entitled news about certification fire issues anzanti urubay new changes
00:38:25 fire issues anzanti urubay new changes coming in the building rules did you see this slide at the time as i say we've dated it to about mid-2012 um for reasons um appearing in other
00:38:37 um for reasons um appearing in other parts of the document but do you remember seeing this document at about that time this friendship i don't i can't remember i don't recall it
00:38:48 it is this how or might this be how you learned about the ruby fire i really can't remember i'm sorry but i can't i can't recall
00:38:58 were you not provided with any information about cladding fires around the world from within our comic those people in your reporting line above you
00:39:08 above you um i don't recall anything no did you ever have any discussions with other salespeople or your manager peter frode
00:39:19 frode about other cladding fires elsewhere in the world
00:39:22 the world um there was not not specifically in relation to that there was
00:39:29 there was one um in the uae that uh i got sent from somebody else
00:39:37 else um that i sent over to our technical team for some comments on i don't recall any other information being sent we'll come to the uae in a little bit of detail shortly
00:39:48 detail shortly uh sticking with the period 2012 which we made at the moment then i'd like to ask you some questions about the changes in product literature at that time
00:39:58 that time can we please have a side by side the following pair of documents
00:40:04 arc30378 and arc i'm so sorry i'll start again arc 50378
00:40:11 arc 50378 and arc50388
00:40:21 we can have those up side by side
00:40:26 we can see that this is a list of certifications in several languages
00:40:34 and we have been told by our colleagues solicitors dla piper that the version on the left 378 was produced in 2010 and the
00:40:48 was produced in 2010 and the document on the right 388 was produced in 2012.
00:40:56 my first question is are you familiar with these documents even sitting here today
00:41:04 i don't recall i don't recall them no to show you a little bit more detail they are in three different languages uh english uh french and
00:41:16 uh english uh french and german it appears and in fact other languages as well across the page um spanish um italian and russian um
00:41:28 do you know who within our colleague produced documents such as this no i don't i'm sorry
00:41:37 uh to assist you further if you look at the english version on the left hand side
00:41:43 side certifications all radio bond architecture and radio x products is subjected to strict internal quality tests and then a little bit lower down it says
00:41:54 then a little bit lower down it says renault bond architecture certification and goes on in the text to say so far no european standards exist for aluminium composite panels until this euro norm standard is
00:42:05 until this euro norm standard is realized throughout europe rainer bond architecture products will be certified according to three aspects in all countries these are product certification reaction to fire certification and system certification
00:42:17 system certification that that's what the documents are about to this extent um can do we take it from your answers you've given so far on this document that you were never provided with these to use
00:42:27 to use uh in your marketing i don't recall seeing them no you're able to explain what they were used for
00:42:36 sorry could you ask the question again that's what they were used for i i could i don't know
00:42:48 can we look at uh page we'll have those documents back up please look at pages three
00:42:54 three and five and five of each of them page three
00:42:58 three in arc50378 and page five in arc50388 and uh we can see that um happily this
00:43:09 and uh we can see that um happily this time they're they're both in english and other languages but the english we can see and this is 2.1 certification and if you look in the 2010 version on
00:43:21 and if you look in the 2010 version on page 3
00:43:22 page 3 on the left hand side you can see under fire certification that europe there under country you see it lists both
00:43:33 both pe and fr core and you can see that a pe core is listed as s 2 d naught and the fr is listed as b
00:43:44 d naught and the fr is listed as b s 1 d naught you see that yes if you look at the right hand side which is the 2012 version page 5 of the 2012 version you can see that the um
00:43:57 you can see that the um under europe uh only the fr certification is listed there b s one d naught there's no claim there about the pe classification
00:44:08 pe classification under the uterine system at all my question is do you know why that change happened no i don't did you know that the change had happened
00:44:20 happened as a fact no i didn't you're not able to explain it no i can't were you aware of any decision at a high level or a higher level than you perhaps within our colleague to remove
00:44:33 within our colleague to remove references to class b on its marketing literature for rayna bond pe
00:44:38 bond pe between 2010 and 2012. no i wouldn't have been made aware of any of that are you able to explain why this document or these documents
00:44:50 document or these documents are in english if these documents were not intended for the uk market i can't explain that no these documents that you would have expected to have been provided with
00:45:02 expected to have been provided with for use in your sales efforts in the uk market
00:45:07 market they possibly were part of the marketing documents i had um there was a number of brochures that i had available to me um but i i could very well have used
00:45:18 um but i i could very well have used them
00:45:19 them you could very well have used them or sent them out yes if they were available to me being available to you i see okay being available to you you wouldn't have sent them out without
00:45:31 wouldn't have sent them out without being thoroughly familiar with would you in terms of all the technical aspects then no i wouldn't have been studying them and
00:45:39 them and in in understanding every aspect of it and questioning it to that degree no would you have been expected to have been told by those who provided you with the 2012 version
00:45:50 the 2012 version that some aspects of it had changed uh if it was relevant to what i was doing
00:45:58 yes
00:46:02 right did anybody as a fact ever point out to you that the 2012 version had changed from the 2010 version because the european class
00:46:13 class b reference in relation to pe had removed been removed and only the fr version
00:46:19 version was referred to no i don't recall do you remember ever alerting your
00:46:31 do you remember ever alerting your customers to the fact that the 2012 document had been updated or changed from the
00:46:36 from the 2010 version or indeed any earlier version
00:46:40 version no it's as if no i don't recall
00:46:45 would you be expected to be told by those providing you with this document uh that even though you need worry yourself about the changes there were changes in it and the customer should look carefully for them
00:46:57 look carefully for them yes it would have been useful to have some pointers yes who provided you with these documents in 2010 and 2012 respectively do you remember uh they
00:47:08 respectively do you remember uh they would have come either from our marketing team or or the sales
00:47:12 sales technical team can you give us some names though first of all who in the marketing
00:47:16 marketing team would have given you these documents as i explained yesterday i can't remember the name of the people that were in the marketing team at the time uh who in the sales technical team would
00:47:27 uh who in the sales technical team would have given you these documents uh there would have that would have been claude and his team when you say claude and his team do you mean claude
00:47:42 there was two others in the team like unfortunately i can't remember their names
00:47:46 names what about peter frody would you would he have been the one to have provided you with these documents do you think he could have passed those on to me yes about nicholas what about him um
00:48:01 i possibly i think he was he i can't remember which i recognized the name i think he was in the test sales technical team but i can't be certain what about uh
00:48:12 uh philly this is difficult to pronounce i hope i get it right philly or vonthron as it would read in english he worked with a sales technical team he provided these documents to you
00:48:25 documents to you sorry say that again he provides these documents to you um he may have done but most i would think it would come from the marketing team
00:48:35 team when these documents came to you
00:48:38 how did they come did they come by post or by email um we had them on both some of them were on the website that you could download some would come as hard copies and be
00:48:49 some would come as hard copies and be posted over to me and then latterly they were on a digital format right and would somebody email you and attach them
00:49:00 would somebody email you and attach them to
00:49:01 to to the email and say um here you are you should be using this version of these documents for your marketing
00:49:09 marketing i don't recall any emails of that nature if you downloaded them from the website what told you that they were there on the website relevant to you such that you should download them
00:49:22 such that you should download them um nothing other than somebody requesting it and i would generally i'd got it stored on my own laptop but how do you notice how would you go about getting it
00:49:35 about getting it you go onto the website what would tell you that you needed to get check the website
00:49:39 website to look for these documents nothing it was what i'm saying is that those brochures could have been on the website to be able to download them from there but did nobody in the sales technical
00:49:50 but did nobody in the sales technical team
00:49:51 team alert you to the fact that they existed and say go and look at the website you'll need them no i don't i don't recall that so what would prompt you to go to the website
00:50:02 would prompt you to go to the website and
00:50:02 and and look for documents such as these if a customer would ask for something and i and i it was the quickest way to get it to them was to show them the
00:50:14 get it to them was to show them the website
00:50:14 website and get them to take it off the website so sorry
00:50:18 so sorry right what kind of question would you get from a customer which would prompt you to look for this document if they just general questions or if they wanted a brochure about renabond
00:50:29 they wanted a brochure about renabond any information about renabond it would be
00:50:31 be the that you generally you'd send them the
00:50:34 the the group uh product brochure right but if you told us the via classification regime for rayner bond was irrelevant to your market what was the point of finding your customers a document which
00:50:46 finding your customers a document which had the product certifications for france germany great britain poland russia italy spain etc and the european classifications because that was the general documents that were in circulation so i would
00:50:57 that were in circulation so i would i would have to send that out yes so you would send it because it was relevant to a customer who wanted it wouldn't you because they'd asked for it so i would send that document out or a general
00:51:08 send that document out or a general renabon document out but you would know that your customers were interested in the euro classifications not only class it depends what they were asking the question on it would have been that they were asking
00:51:19 were asking for information to do with colours or the types of panels that could be made it wouldn't necessarily always be about about
00:51:31 always be about about fire it was it could have been just general questions about renabond and the product
00:51:41 if you uh were let me try let me try and get it this way um
00:51:50 way um how would you be told would you be told by anyone in iconic that these documents changed from year to year
00:51:57 to year or period to period
00:52:00 i don't recall
00:52:03 you would need to be wouldn't you you need to be told that a document you had previously accessed or previously been sent by post had been updated
00:52:14 as i've said before if that's it would be
00:52:17 be yes i would have been told or they would have been uh alerting me to the fact that there had been some changes but i don't recall how that happened if we compare page one uh of the the
00:52:28 if we compare page one uh of the the document on the left hand side 378 arc50378 and page three of the uh later document arc50388
00:52:39 of the uh later document arc50388 we could just have those up please at the same time
00:52:43 we had those before they appear to be identical don't they
00:52:50 uh yes if without reading them word for word but yes all right take it from me that they are identical or substantially identical
00:53:02 identical or substantially identical we haven't been able to see anything in this document either on this page or anywhere else to tell the customer clearly
00:53:11 clearly that the one on the right 2012 is a new document
00:53:15 document updated from the one on the left 2010. is that right not not just a matter of reading the documents but but would that be a correct conclusion
00:53:26 would that be a correct conclusion there's nothing in this in the right hand document 2012 to say that the 2010 document has been revised amended updated in any way um that's i it's difficult for me to
00:53:39 um that's i it's difficult for me to answer without having understood the exact
00:53:42 exact all of the detail but no i can't see anything that points it out more generally were you ever told by peter frelich or anybody in the sales technical team to tell your customers that your
00:53:54 to tell your customers that your marketing literature had changed not that i recall can we look at claude velle's witness statement please this is met3053190
00:54:06 met3053190 at page 28 paragraph 96
00:54:15 and he says there well he says a lot i think it's probably worth just showing you all of this paragraph there's one particular part i want to look to look at in detail with you but he says this in relation to the
00:54:27 but he says this in relation to the removal from the relevant marketing materials of the en classification reference for the pe product i sent two emails in may 2012 requesting a meeting with claude schmidt
00:54:38 requesting a meeting with claude schmidt and on the second occasion on the 29th of may 2012 claude schmidt responded asking what the meeting was for i confirmed that it was for a discussion on how the fire classifications are affecting the position in europe
00:54:49 affecting the position in europe i don't recall actually meeting with claude schmidt but had a brief discussion earlier the following early the following week when it was agreed between us that the reference to en class b in the marketing documents should be
00:55:01 in the marketing documents should be removed as it was no longer a wholly accurate reflection of the position
00:55:06 position it was agreed that the sales team for each jurisdiction should be told of the en
00:55:10 en e classification so that they could take this into account as relevant to their jurisdiction and not all jurisdictions allowed the sale of pe in any event the intention was for customers to be
00:55:21 the intention was for customers to be informed of the position when asking about the fire performance the cassette barrier to the product and that the classification was available on the cstb website all of this was actioned i do not know
00:55:33 all of this was actioned i do not know exactly how this was done it could have been by discussion or by sending customers the updated marketing material
00:55:40 material with respect to the communication to the sales team i believe that the result would have been placed in the toolbox for their use now do you recall having seen what mr
00:55:52 now do you recall having seen what mr verle says there being told by anybody at our comic in 2012
00:55:59 2012 that rainer bond was no longer class b in the european tests no i don't recall do you recall ever being
00:56:09 being instructed or advised to tell your uk customers
00:56:14 customers that rhino bond was no longer class b in the european tests uh i don't recall
00:56:23 if mr verle is telling the truth in paragraph 96 of his statement are you able to explain why you weren't told
00:56:34 no i don't i don't i can't answer that is there any discussion in any meetings of this change
00:56:43 not that i can recall you sent any emails
00:56:46 emails to tell you to tell your uk customers that our rainerbond55pe was no longer class b um i recall having since gone through the
00:56:57 recall having since gone through the details since the grenfell there were some
00:57:00 some emails um in relation to um that came from claude in relation to the cassettes patients
00:57:11 the cassettes patients i don't sorry say again sorry i spoke over you and that's my fault that was in 2014 wasn't it i think uh yes it would have been yes
00:57:23 uh yes it would have been yes just focusing on 2012 do you remember any emails telling you to tell your uk customers that rainer bond was no longer class b not that i recall no
00:57:38 did anybody instruct you in any way to get this message out to your customer base
00:57:46 base not that i recall no
00:57:49 we discussed the toolbox yesterday and i is it right to say on the basis of what you told us yesterday that even if the toolbox had been updated you would
00:57:58 would not have known to access it no that's right
00:58:05 now we can see that mr velez says if we can get back to his statement please paragraph 96 let me just go back to the document we were on he says
00:58:16 were on he says that the intention was for customers to be informed of the position
00:58:27 you can see he says that two-thirds of the way down the paragraph i showed you that before yes did any customers actually ask about the fire performance of raynaud brand
00:58:38 of raynaud brand and in particular the fire performance cassette fix at this time 2012
00:58:45 not that i can recall now in her witness statement and i'll just give the reference without going to it uh gwen is says at paragraph 34 on page
00:58:56 uh gwen is says at paragraph 34 on page 11 of her statement that they did not ask do you agree with that
00:59:03 that yes as i've said i don't recall any asking
00:59:06 asking if claude vale's intention was as he says in his statement that customers would be told of the position when asking do we take from that that if the
00:59:17 do we take from that that if the customers didn't ask they didn't get told
00:59:23 if they weren't yes
00:59:27 does it follow from that that it was unlikely for a customer in the uk to find out about the up-to-date european classifications for raynaud 55
00:59:39 yes
00:59:43 they wouldn't know to ask if they'd been a change unless they knew they'd been a change would they no how would they know that they'd been a change
00:59:52 a change they wouldn't unless they were told
00:59:56 if you had been told at the time that what we now see namely that reynabon 55 pe
01:00:07 that reynabon 55 pe was no longer a european class b would you have told your customers um i i honestly i don't know i don't
01:00:18 um i i honestly i don't know i don't know the answer to that question um if i'd been told that if i'd been asked that that's they all needed to know then i would have made sure that that communication went
01:00:27 went out to them right what if you had been told only to tell them if they asked about the fire performance of the cassette variant of the product as mr verde says
01:00:38 as mr verde says what have you been asked that question what would you have said then it's difficult to answer that at this this time i i i can't i can't really answer that
01:00:55 i want just to look across then at what was happening at this time in 2012 on the granville tower project um 2012 you'll appreciate this french was
01:01:07 2012 you'll appreciate this french was early days for grenfell and i can start i think please by asking you some questions about your connection with the fabricators can we look at your first witness statement please met3019063 at page two
01:01:26 and we can see that paragraph six you say that as a sales manager my primary focus was the origination and sale of the renault bond product in the uk market
01:01:38 uk market and since our conic had and still has so far as i am aware a number of commercial competitors selling product equivalent to the reinable range then a lot of my efforts were focused on developing customer relationships
01:01:50 developing customer relationships with fabricators and promoting the reynabond brand in the marketplace um just pausing there well actually i'll read you the rest um naturally this included fielding inquiries regarding the range of colors
01:02:02 inquiries regarding the range of colors for that product as well as pricing inquiries and preparing estimates and quotations my main contacts were fabricators who would buy the product and cut to size and shape according to project needs and who are often
01:02:13 project needs and who are often approached by main contractors or specialist cladding installers a few major house builders and architects were also among my contacts can we take it from
01:02:24 among my contacts can we take it from that that you had a deliberate marketing strategy
01:02:27 strategy to have good relationships with fabricators
01:02:32 uh yes i i was focusing on on that element
01:02:36 element and fabricators for you were is this right the platform by which you could market renault bonds to the end user it was a way of us uh getting more
01:02:47 it was a way of us uh getting more exposure to rent a bond on certain projects
01:02:54 and does that mean that you would aim to have a smaller number of good contacts fabricators rather than trying to have a lot of direct relationships with designers contractors employers and
01:03:06 with designers contractors employers and so forth
01:03:07 so forth yes yes
01:03:10 yes yes can we just look at a document which is a presentation given to you we think in june 2013
01:03:17 june 2013 at met 3019917
01:03:28 uh we we've got a page 10 please of that document we have a diagram
01:03:35 diagram um is this this is a document i think you compiled isn't it yes uh and uh let's just look at this diagram you can see the date at the bottom left hand corner 12th of september 2017
01:03:46 september 2017 uh that's obviously after the fire did you
01:03:50 you what is the relevance of that date uh
01:03:55 well there wouldn't have been any for that because i wasn't there at the time that may very well therefore be the be a uh just an exhibit mark um if we go to page
01:04:06 um if we go to page uh well staying on this page uh you can see that
01:04:10 see that from the left hand side you've got six approved fabricators uh and taylor maxwell and the middle arby
01:04:18 arby arc uk is that renault under architecture uk yes then all project projects and details recorded in crm that's the that's a database details for projects
01:04:29 that's a database details for projects isn't it
01:04:29 isn't it that's right later and then on the right hand side
01:04:33 hand side architects and investors cpd presentation specifications main contractors planning installers what was the significance of architects and investors there
01:04:45 there so that was to that the basic we were looking at at um trying to promote renabon through architects right get specifications
01:04:58 architects right get specifications with doing cpd presentations and developing specifications with them what about main contractors um i don't can't remember why
01:05:10 um i don't can't remember why that was on there um but it would we would have been having contact so through those approved fabricators um and other people on there they we would have been having some contact with
01:05:22 would have been having some contact with main contractors on specific projects and we had i had some contact not much probably one maybe two with uh with
01:05:34 probably one maybe two with uh with cladding installers very very rare with cladding installers and then if we go to page three of this document
01:05:46 we can see that it's entitled bond rainer lux business case strategy objectives actions
01:05:55 actions uh route to market and wise the second bullet point down taylor maxwell fabricators architects and main contractors and supply agreements see that um does that tell us that your
01:06:06 see that um does that tell us that your main market were fabricators but also architects and main contractors um yes we were getting involved with making some main contractors due to
01:06:17 making some main contractors due to a specific main contractor through fabricators now if you go i should have shown you this i'm sorry page back to page two of this
01:06:29 i'm sorry page back to page two of this document
01:06:30 document you can see that it's dated june 2013 i did say that it was that's where we see it sales meeting june 2013. so does that tell us tell me if this is
01:06:41 so does that tell us tell me if this is wrong that at that time at least june 2013 you regarded your principal customer base as fabricators but also um architects
01:06:52 but also um architects cloud and contractors and main contractors perhaps to a lesser extent oh yeah the main was um fabricators and architects as i say with the main contractor there
01:07:04 as i say with the main contractor there was one specific contractor that we were working with uh which was to do with some general housing that they were that they were dealing with so in very simple terms do we take it
01:07:17 so in very simple terms do we take it from that your customer base we've been talking a lot about your customers or customer base comprise fabricators and some architects yes thank you now if
01:07:28 and some architects yes thank you now if we go back to your statement your first statement please we were on anything
01:07:32 anything zero is one nine zero six three please can we get a page two sorry page three um paragraph
01:07:40 ten
01:07:44 we were there that's it and you say one of the fabrication companies we can just expand that thank you one of the fabrication companies with whom i had established a good working relationship
01:07:55 relationship and who have generated a number of opportunities for art comic with cep architectural for sales limited cep
01:08:02 cep you go on to say that jeff blades of cep contacted you about supplying to the grenfell tower project did you have an existing relationship
01:08:13 did you have an existing relationship with jeff blades before this time early 2013 yes we've done a number of we've done one possibly some work with with cp
01:08:25 one possibly some work with with cp uh cep before that yes jeff blaser he gave his evidence this is day 41 page 31 lines 23 to 20 to 25 describe your relationship as
01:08:36 your relationship as a professional business working relationship would you agree with that yes i would agree that it was an informal relationship but one of trust yes we
01:08:47 yes we we had a professional relationship yes i'm not suggesting anything unto all i'm just asking you is he right to say that it was an informal relationship and one of trust yes we worked well
01:08:58 and one of trust yes we worked well together yes now mr blades told us that he didn't think that cep would get favorable deals from our colleague by virtue of that relationship is he right about that yes he's right
01:09:14 you say in your second witness statement that your introduction to the grenfell tower project was in october 2012 and mr blade's evidence is that he introduced you to the project
01:09:25 introduced you to the project and for our purposes that's day 41 page 85 lines
01:09:29 85 lines 15 to 21. is that correct oh yes i believe so and he also told us that he introduced you because he was aware that studio e was interested in zinc products and
01:09:41 was interested in zinc products and rhino bond could be supplied in zinc or with a zinc finish is that right
01:09:47 right yes were you told in advance that the architect was looking for zinc products i say in advance before you met studio e uh i
01:09:58 studio e uh i i knew we were going in to talk about acm i can't recall whether it's specifically about zcn zinc zinc material now jeff blades
01:10:09 material now jeff blades also told us and this is day 41 page 86 289 lines three to six um that cep did not work with solid sync
01:10:20 um that cep did not work with solid sync or zca is that right that's my understanding they haven't yes so does that mean that if you were going
01:10:32 so does that mean that if you were going to supply
01:10:35 to supply um if you were going to supply cep or going to supply a project using cep as your fabricator it would rule out using sync or zcm
01:10:46 it would rule out using sync or zcm altogether no there's no reason why they couldn't have the fact they hadn't dealt with it before would wouldn't have been any reason for them not to have been fabricating it at some point
01:10:59 fabricating it at some point right could could arconic supply solid zinc
01:11:03 zinc not solid zinc no only zcm that was the only zinc metal product that you could supply zcm is that right yes
01:11:13 yes an iconic i think could also supply zinc as you told us yesterday zinc passina acm so acn coated will look like zinc yes and i think it's right cep
01:11:24 yes and i think it's right cep would be happy to work with zinc pattern at acm because it was acm and not zetssia
01:11:32 i don't recall having those exact conversations with them but there's no reason why they couldn't have fabricated zcm or use the zinc painted
01:11:43 or use the zinc painted look right acn
01:11:48 do you remember at that time october 2012 or indeed early 2013 who the main contractor on the grenfell tower project was
01:12:00 um i remember at the very first meeting that
01:12:03 that there was main contractor ledbetters at that meeting um but that was my only knowledge of main contractors that were involved
01:12:13 involved do you remember whether you brought product literature a hard copy of product literature with you to that meeting i don't recall specifically do you remember discussing natural solid
01:12:26 do you remember discussing natural solid zinc
01:12:27 zinc at that meeting i recall talking about zcm you did you talked about zcm did you we talked about zcm and um possibly other acm
01:12:41 and um possibly other acm materials as well
01:12:45 did you did you talk about zinc pattern at acm
01:12:50 at acm um i it would have been in the brochure if i'd have left to brochure i don't recall whether i specifically spoke about zed
01:13:01 spoke about zed pattina blasey's recollection again day 41 page 88 916 was that you discussed at that meeting you discussed options where you could offer
01:13:12 discussed options where you could offer paint finish to replicate zinc is that right yeah i don't recall it myself
01:13:18 myself you also said you say you also discussed uh zcm yes
01:13:28 was there the array what about the arrangement with yumacore at that time
01:13:34 we we were being encouraged to uh sell zcm and not the zinc patterner because of an arrangement that had been
01:13:44 had been drawn up between new macor who was supplying
01:13:47 supplying alcoa the natural zinc skin to produce the zcn so we were being encouraged not to sell the
01:13:58 the painted uh zinc material why did you why did you discuss uh pattern a zinc pattern finished acm given the umicore arrangement at
01:14:11 acm given the umicore arrangement at that time
01:14:13 that time i don't recall specifically why
01:14:17 did you discuss anything about the fire performance either of zcm or zinc pattern of finished acm at that meeting
01:14:26 meeting no i don't recall did you mention the different core the fact that zcm had an fr core invariably whereas acm
01:14:38 invariably whereas acm could have either a pe core or an fr core did that top no i don't recall did you discuss core at all at that meeting no i don't recall doing so
01:14:49 doing so you discussed the price of zcm at that meeting
01:14:53 meeting no i wouldn't have done zcm was substantially more expensive wasn't it than
01:14:58 than acm yeah that wouldn't have been for me to discuss that with in front of an architect with with the fabricator would have done that through the right channels how hard did you push says here do you
01:15:09 how hard did you push says here do you remember in those early meetings at that early meeting it's not it wasn't for me to
01:15:15 for me to try and persuade a customer either way we had a range of materials and i would present that range of materials and it would have been up to them to decide what they wanted
01:15:27 can you give us an idea of the uh well let me just ask you this i put it this way to you can i ask you uh to look at claude schmidt's second witness statement
01:15:37 statement mr mr chairman i know for time um this is probably given this
01:15:44 about a five minute line of questions but dipping into some evidence uh it's as convenient a moment as ever but we are on the same topic well if it's a convenient point let's break there
01:15:56 break there um if you would rather just continue for up you know five minutes or a little longer i'm quite happy with that can we if we can do that i'd be very grateful yes all right thank you very
01:16:07 grateful yes all right thank you very much
01:16:07 much um mr french can i ask you please to be shown claude schmitz with the second witness statement at page 13. that's met3053187 page 13 of paragraph 37
01:16:21 page 13 of paragraph 37 he says in that statement
01:16:27 at 37 with regard to the prices of zcm and acmfr in comparison to acm 55pe around the time of the refurbishment of grenfell tower these were as follows
01:16:40 grenfell tower these were as follows zcm around 8 euros 80 per square meter acm fr around euros 28 square meter
01:16:53 euros 28 square meter acmpe around euros 26 per square meter
01:16:59 so on this basis on this evidence from mr schmidt zcm was more than three times the cost of acm
01:17:06 of acm pe does that accord with your recollection uh yes it was more expensive now he also tells us about our comics profit margin
01:17:17 profit margin if we can go to page 13 of this statement of paragraph 38 just below it he says we'll stay on this page
01:17:24 this page look just below he says so far as profit margins on said cm acm fr and acm 55pe products at the onset and during the refurbishment of grenfell tower
01:17:35 refurbishment of grenfell tower are concerned these were as follows zcm around euros 30 to 40 per square meter acm
01:17:42 acm fr around euros five to six per square meter acm pe around euros seven to eight per square meter
01:17:53 meter now according to cloud schmidt therefore it looks as if pe makes around two euros more per square meter than fr
01:18:04 euros more per square meter than fr chord acn would that again would that correspond with your recollection i was not ever party to any uh any of the profit in
01:18:15 the profit in profit uh that um that they were making on either any of the products the only only information i was uh working on was the overall square meter price to the
01:18:26 overall square meter price to the customer i was not party to any of that you didn't know which was the more profitable of the products in the range you were selling is that no definitely not right it looks from this as if as zcm makes by far the most profit
01:18:40 as zcm makes by far the most profit do i take it though from what you're telling us that um you didn't know that no i definitely didn't know that were you ever encouraged to sell pe over
01:18:51 were you ever encouraged to sell pe over fr
01:18:52 fr no mr chairman that i think is a convenient moment yes very well well uh mrs french will have a break at that point
01:19:03 point please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it one we have the break
01:19:10 the break and we'll resume at 25 to 12 please all right thank you very much
01:34:56 welcome back everyone uh i'm going to go next
01:35:00 next to miss french to check that she's back with us hello miss french are you there yes i am thank you sir and you can hear me and see me plainly i hope yes thank you and you're ready to carry on yes i am
01:35:12 on yes i am so i shall ask mr millett to uh continue his questioning yes mr millet mr chairman welcome back mrs french i just want to explore a little bit more with you if i can the topic of zcm um you told us before
01:35:25 the topic of zcm um you told us before that arconic had had an arrangement with umicore
01:35:28 umicore by which you were obliged to promote zcm in other words solid zinc powers yes yes could we look at exhibit df4 at met30199
01:35:42 exhibit df4 at met30199 please
01:35:52 this is one of your exhibits and
01:35:59 if you go to the next page this is the first page of the exhibit if you go to page two
01:36:04 page two uh you can see that this is a list of samples provided for the grenfell tower project i think you put this together when is this right when you were when you were preparing your witness
01:36:15 you were preparing your witness statements sorry i didn't put it together it was put together by the solicitors right and am i right in thinking that this is
01:36:26 and am i right in thinking that this is a list of um of samples that you historically had provided to studio e when you were involved yes it was yes now we if we look down that list it's
01:36:38 now we if we look down that list it's chronological 2013-14
01:36:43 and below that 2014 right through that year
01:36:47 year you can see that there are um a large number
01:36:51 number of samples provided but if you look at that down that list take your time if you can be just look at first of all what's on the page in front of you or screen in front of you there is any
01:37:03 or screen in front of you there is any of those
01:37:04 of those uh said sierra no if we look at the bottom half of the page then
01:37:13 uh is any of those
01:37:18 zcm no uh yes sorry brenda bondsync no no no
01:37:27 no no no so can you explain why you never provided any samples of zcm notwithstanding your arrangement with the unicorn that you were obliged to promote
01:37:38 to promote no i don't recall right um do you remember whether you brought samples with you to the october 2012 meeting
01:37:46 meeting no i don't remember
01:37:50 you don't remember no i don't remember do you remember whether you took um any particular samples or you just don't remember one way or the other i can't remember what i took with me on
01:38:01 i can't remember what i took with me on that particular meeting can we look at your first witness statement page four please i'd like to look with you at paragraph 11
01:38:11 11 you're talking here and i'll wait for it to come up so you can see it about the correspondence in late march 2013
01:38:23 march 2013 and if you look five lines down in that paragraph
01:38:27 paragraph you say in relation to the zinc pattern at acm i believe we must have spoken to umikor
01:38:32 umikor regarding providing this color acm so as not to have been acting against our arrangement with them i was not however involved in these discussions now to be fair to you it does appear
01:38:44 now to be fair to you it does appear that you did attempt to introduce unicor to the project uh and if we could just look at that it's at cep6014
01:38:55 it's at cep6014 this is an email chain uh from october 2012
01:39:02 where uh
01:39:06 you can see that um jonathan loewy of humacor writes to you or copies to you uh uh he writes to studio e
01:39:17 studio e um adrian that's adrian jess we believe uh on the 16th of october 2012 copy to you uh adrian debbie french from
01:39:28 copy to you uh adrian debbie french from rainbow asked me to contact you regarding our pre-weathered sink she thought that it may be useful uh for you to see some photos of a project completed five years ago or so in london city court by barclay
01:39:39 or so in london city court by barclay homes in lehman street he sends photographs and you respond if you uh are scrolled up that page you respond uh on the 18th of october to him hi jonathan manny thanks for sending
01:39:50 him hi jonathan manny thanks for sending these pictures over to studio e my approved renewable fabricator cep facades are working closely with this project and introduced rayner bondset cm to the architect i've copied jeff into this email so you can be kept in the loop
01:40:03 can be kept in the loop um so it looks from this is it right that you had in fact introduced raynaud's said cm in other words with zinc as opposed to zinc finish
01:40:14 zinc finish to studio e um again i can't remember the specific conversations but uh yes
01:40:26 we haven't seen any emails where anybody from yumacore actually gave permission to sell zinc pattern at acm in place of zcm properly so called do do you
01:40:37 zcm properly so called do do you remember any emails of that nature so could you repeat the question yes we haven't seen any any emails where anybody from umicor gave permission
01:40:48 anybody from umicor gave permission to rhino bond but to iconic uh to sell zinc patterner acm as opposed to pure zinc
01:41:01 did you see any of that nature at the time no i don't i don't recall the the details of that do do you know or can you remember who it was who gave
01:41:12 or can you remember who it was who gave permission or sought permission uh who our comics saw permission to use that material to use the zcn
01:41:23 to use the zcn to use acm with the passenger finish uh no i don't can we go to your first witness statement
01:41:34 to your first witness statement again please at page four paragraph 14.
01:41:40 and you say there i was asked to provide some indicative pricing you see i was asked to provide some indicative pricing for the supply of zcm which is a for which is an fr product
01:41:52 which is a for which is an fr product of a volume of approximately 5 000 square meters i cannot remember whether i provided a formal quotation or written estimate
01:41:59 estimate i do recall that soon after i provided the price i was told i think by jeff blades that we were too expensive
01:42:07 and is it right that at that stage you thought you'd lost the grenfell tower project
01:42:13 project uh i believe so yes was that because in your view
01:42:18 your view zcm was too expensive um i can't recall but yes i believe so right was there any part of that thinking uh related to the fact that
01:42:32 thinking uh related to the fact that as jeff blades told us in his evidence cep
01:42:36 cep did not work with or had never worked with zcm
01:42:40 with zcm i don't believe that would have been a reason for it no right
01:42:46 were you still hopeful at that time that cep would still promote rayno bond products
01:42:51 products including perhaps zinc pattern acm on on this particular project um i don't recall whether or what i would have thought at the time
01:43:03 would have thought at the time if it would have been down to the customer to decide what they what they wanted it wasn't for us to try and maneuver them down any particular route it would have been up to them to decide
01:43:14 decide right and in fact it's right isn't it that even as early as late march 2013
01:43:22 you were supplying samples of sync pattern at acm to studio e weren't you yes yes can we then turn to 2013
01:43:33 yes can we then turn to 2013 proper um i've taken the chronology slightly out of order i'm afraid so but i want to try to stay if i can with the events in those early days of the grenfell tower refurbishment rolling back the clock a little bit to
01:43:45 rolling back the clock a little bit to the very beginning of 2013. so that's where we are in the chronology can we look at cep3048 please
01:44:01 and this is a run of emails in early 2013 january 2013. if we look at the second email down this is an email from mohit katecha of
01:44:13 this is an email from mohit katecha of ledbitter
01:44:14 ledbitter to jeff blades on the 24th of january 2013
01:44:19 2013 and it's said to be email of one of two and it says um jeff nice to meet you today at baseline offices to review the grenfell tower project with gareth and myself
01:44:30 myself as discussed please find attached all necessary details for cep architectural to produce a design manufacturer and supply price along with installation costs from your approved installer high-rise solutions
01:44:43 installer high-rise solutions and we can see that this was forwarded to you if you look at a little bit higher up the page this was forwarded to you by jeff blades a little bit later on the same day
01:44:56 the same day 24th of january 2014. now um take it from me that we have seen that attached to this uh email from mr um from mr kotecha to
01:45:07 uh email from mr um from mr kotecha to mr blades was a bundle of documents uh and i'll just give the reference it's cep
01:45:15 cep eight 30489 seven seven there's no need to go to those
01:45:19 um if we go to that's the email itself if we go to the bundle it's cep3048978
01:45:31 it's cep3048978 this is what gets sent we don't need to see the covering email this is what gets sent and this is a specification it outlines specification
01:45:42 it outlines specification for the rain screen cladding and if we go to page 10 of this document you will see that here is an early drawing
01:45:50 drawing of the overclad tower
01:45:56 when you received the email that mr kaptech had sent to mr blaine's and mr blades had forwarded to you on the 24th of january 2013.
01:46:08 on the 24th of january 2013. did you open the bundle of documents and look at this document i don't recall whether i did or didn't
01:46:17 also attached to his email and forwarded to you is cep3048979 this is another bundle of documents
01:46:33 and if we go to page three in that please we can see that this is a picture of the tower before refurbishment you say you didn't look at you say you
01:46:45 you say you didn't look at you say you didn't look at these i think in your statement uh you say you don't recall receiving these emails and you don't know if you ever looked at the attachments no i don't recall whether i did or didn't
01:46:57 it's right isn't it that you were asked to quote for the project at about this time weren't you um i don't recall whether i don't recall the details of the date that we were
01:47:09 the details of the date that we were first asked to produce a price right uh well you had a meeting i think with studio e in march 2013 didn't you yes that's a couple of months later than
01:47:22 yes that's a couple of months later than this document uh but when you had that meeting uh did you look at or did you look back at uh this email that you got from mr cotecha in january
01:47:33 that you got from mr cotecha in january and the bundle he sent you about the project
01:47:37 project a lot of those details on there wouldn't have been necessarily relevant to to me that would have been down to the
01:47:47 we were basically providing a larger flat material that other people would have been
01:47:53 have been cutting down and installing so i wouldn't
01:47:56 wouldn't necessarily have looked over those details in great detail but i don't recall
01:48:01 recall whether i did or didn't open them right you don't recall whether you did or didn't open them uh can we proceed on the basis that it is that
01:48:11 is that because mr blades was sending you this information for this project at the very least the time this was information that he thought was important to you you would have realized that
01:48:22 would have realized that yes is there any reason you can think of why you wouldn't have looked at these documents because as i say we were providing
01:48:30 providing the build up of that of any project is nothing is it wasn't relevant to what i was actually doing we were supplying a product that would have then been cut down by others
01:48:41 down by others it would have been designed by others and it would have been installed onto a building by others so all of those details again technically i wouldn't have had an awful lot of knowledge about what those drawings
01:48:53 knowledge about what those drawings meant
01:48:54 meant what they what they involved or how specific or non-specific they were that's fair enough and i'm really just asking you whether you looked at these at the time you see you can't remember did you look
01:49:05 you see you can't remember did you look at them in preparation for the sales meeting that you had at the end of march the month two months later um i don't think i don't recall let's look at your statement paragraph 72 please on page 21
01:49:19 paragraph 72 please on page 21 a second witness statement paragraph 72 on page
01:49:27 page you say there uh you say that i have also recently again by virtue of disclosure seen along 24th of january 2013 mr jeff
01:49:38 seen along 24th of january 2013 mr jeff blade cep
01:49:39 blade cep forwarded me cocktail mr neil wilson cep two emails that he received from mr mayor kitecha of ledbitter i did not recall receiving these emails and i do not know if i ever looked at the attachments
01:49:50 looked at the attachments looking at the emails again now i also know that they do not ask me to provide further information or respond etc i've been asked to describe what the attachments are and what they show i can
01:50:02 attachments are and what they show i can see that the emails include 12 attachments which i would describe as artistic renderings of what grenfell tower might look like
01:50:08 look like after completion of the works along with technical architectural drawings some showing the building as a whole and others showing cross sections they include information such as the amount of area to be covered by padding and technical drawings of the window
01:50:20 and technical drawings of the window installation this was very early in the project and i'm not sure that the documents
01:50:24 documents would have been directly relevant for my purposes i had no technical knowledge and did not get involved in the design of projects and therefore cannot explain in technical detail the drawings or what they show
01:50:33 they show indeed it was common for me to have very limited details about a project copies of these emails and attachments appear from page 327 df5
01:50:44 do you accept that at the very least what these show is that grenfell tower was a tall building yes
01:50:55 a tall building yes and that you noticed that it was a tall building a high-rise building yes
01:51:04 can we then look back at your statement at paragraph 73 which is the next state next paragraph down in the same statement
01:51:15 when you say there i've been asked to confirm whether if i whether i knew if the building was taller than 18 meters and the extent of the cladding works i did not recall ever thinking about the height of the building or the extent of
01:51:27 height of the building or the extent of the cladding as far as i was concerned at the time the product had a vba certificate which referred to national class naught now can we take that statement there in in your statement
01:51:39 in your statement as confirming that you understood at the time
01:51:43 time you understood the regulations in the uk at the time sufficiently to know that as long as the product you were supplying had class naught you could sell it for any height of building including grenfell tower being
01:51:55 building including grenfell tower being a high building yes does that tell us that you knew at the time that it was important that reynold bond pe55 had achieved a class not fire
01:52:07 had achieved a class not fire classification because without it you couldn't set it for use on a tall building such as grenfell tower i don't recall thinking of it or understanding it in
01:52:18 understanding it in in that detail
01:52:22 to be clear is it because you knew or perhaps thought it's let's say thought that rb
01:52:27 that rb raymond 55 pe had achieved class naught that you didn't concern yourself with the height of the building no another as i say other people had
01:52:38 no another as i say other people had uh all the details as well and wouldn't would have been able to make those those judgment calls as well yes uh well i'm just asking about your thinking you see because in your statement you
01:52:51 you see because in your statement you say
01:52:52 say you don't recall thinking about the height of the building or the extent of the clouding because as far as i was concerned at the time the product had a bba certificate which referred to national class naught
01:53:03 class naught what i'm just trying to understand is your thought process um was your thought process that because it had
01:53:11 it had class naught you didn't have to think about the height of the building at all or do you think because it's class naught
01:53:19 naught even though it's a tall building it can be used
01:53:24 it basically it was that i didn't i didn't really think about any product any building in terms of its height or or its overall design we had a bba
01:53:35 or or its overall design we had a bba document
01:53:36 document and and i and my understanding was that it was covered by the necessary regulations let me try and get it at a different way you saw that the grenfell tower was a tall building
01:53:48 tall building when you saw that it was a tall building was your thought process well that's all right because reynabon pe55 has got a class naught so i can supply it
01:53:58 supply it i'm i'm honestly not sure that i would have even thought that at the time it would have been that uh it got a classification we had a bba document
01:54:08 document and that was that that was enough did you have any understanding about the relationship or about whether there was a relationship between class nought on the
01:54:19 relationship between class nought on the one hand
01:54:20 one hand and the height of the building or which renault pe55 could be used on the other
01:54:35 now between march and april 2013 i think it's right isn't it that you sent samples to studio e we saw that list that you've compiled that's correct isn't it
01:54:46 that's correct isn't it yes uh now in her evidence uh gwen is says that uh uh this is paragraph 29 of her statement um
01:54:57 this is paragraph 29 of her statement um the
01:54:58 the samples are a4 size or smaller is that right yes there were a couple of different sizes a4 or a3 maybe slightly smaller than an a3 right
01:55:12 maybe slightly smaller than an a3 right and they're supplied purely for aesthetic purposes
01:55:17 and yes it right that arconic she says uh produce acm to order and when iconic produces acn to order additional sheets are made up and cut up into
01:55:27 into sample sizes and that's how samples are generated
01:55:31 generated is that correct yes yes thank you she also says that because of that method of production archonic doesn't pay any attention to the core of the sample samples are for color and finish only is
01:55:42 samples are for color and finish only is she right about that yes
01:55:54 did to the best of your understanding did your
01:55:58 did your customers understand that that was the purpose of your sending them samples i believe so yes we again we were never asked any questions
01:56:09 again we were never asked any questions about the core on any samples provided it was always to do with the aesthetics so does that follow from that that you never discussed the core of samples that you
01:56:18 you that you were sending your customers um from my recollection no
01:56:27 i'd like to turn them to a topic um about
01:56:31 about internal records within an iconic about the grenfell tower project if i may now in your first witness statement you say that you had a meeting with studio e on the 4th of march 2013. that's
01:56:43 on the 4th of march 2013. that's paragraph 10. i can take you back to it if you like but do you remember that yes um if we look at your first statement
01:56:54 in the same place you also said on the 11th of march you confirmed the entry onto the archonic crm program showing cep is the potential customer for grenfell tower
01:57:05 for grenfell tower with jeff blaze as the potential customer
01:57:09 in fact it's come up on the screen for for your for your convenience so you can see there um do you see you say uh in the last few lines
01:57:21 yes yes um crm does that stand for customer relationship management yes and what can you just explain to us what is that
01:57:33 what is that is it a database yes in effect it was just a
01:57:38 just a main portal for information to be stored about
01:57:42 about projects customers and other details samples were ordered through that crm system at a later stage as well
01:58:00 if we go to the entry in the crm that you refer to i think we find that at met three zeros one nine nine two zero page five can we go to that
01:58:18 this is dated at the 11th of march 2013 and it comes from do not reply
01:58:29 uh at crm ondemand.com 11th of march 20 2013 to gwenelle derenden task grenfell tower is submitted
01:58:40 submitted and just help me with this is it is this an automated email from the crm system yes uh what would prompt it to go uh that they'd sent some that they'd
01:58:53 uh that they'd sent some that they'd shipped
01:58:53 shipped samples out to to satisfy the requests that have been put into the system right and do i understand it this way that you would make an entry on to the crm about
01:59:05 would make an entry on to the crm about the project and what was needed and that would then automatically email um gwen alder and jay or perhaps the inside sales team about what was needed um i believe
01:59:17 about what was needed um i believe the requests went direct to somebody else within merck's time for them to pull together the
01:59:25 the necessary sample and send it out so either myself or or gwen would would raise the request for samples i see if we look at the substance of the email that's sent just go back to that
01:59:37 email that's sent just go back to that please
01:59:38 please uh it says order ship brochures samples
01:59:43 task information grenfell tower normal our iconic contact debra french that's one contact two darren j account information
01:59:54 information cep architectural facades contact information jeff blades english uh does that reflect a
02:00:05 does that reflect a an entry that you had made yourself onto the crm
02:00:10 the crm uh yeah it could very well be from me i don't know whether it can't remember whether it would have been from me or whether it would have been put in there by by gwen as i say we would have both had access to that and do that depending on where the
02:00:23 and do that depending on where the request came from does the existence of this email tell us that the grenfell tower project had actually been entered onto the crm database at this time or by this time uh yes
02:00:36 at this time or by this time uh yes this is uh this is the 11th of march 2013. yes
02:00:40 2013. yes what was the significance of the entry of the grenfell tower project onto the crm database we had to put everything into that we were working on into the crm and start
02:00:51 were working on into the crm and start to build up a a sort of knowledge of the project and the details of projects so we could track samples and other information
02:01:03 samples and other information right can we then look back at your first witness statement at page five please
02:01:12 go to paragraph 16.
02:01:18 when you say there uh um i cannot recall any further activity or exchanges for the rest of 2013 although i note
02:01:27 i note from page one of df3 that on 18th of october 2013 i created a new crm program entry for the grenfell tower project this crm document shows lead bitters as a potential party in the product
02:01:38 a potential party in the product identified as acmrb painted this would be p e or fr and zcmrb this was fr
02:01:48 now is is that your recollection that the the new there was a new crm program entry for grenfell tower project in october 2013.
02:02:00 um i don't recall that i've just seen the email that you've just shown me well when i showed you was march 2013 what i was just interested to know is what happened to the march entry onto
02:02:11 what happened to the march entry onto the crm
02:02:12 the crm if the one in october was as you call it a new entry i don't know i can't recall
02:02:20 can we look at uh your exhibit three would you refer to
02:02:26 met3019918 at page two please
02:02:37 um you can see that this is an entry onto the crm and you could see the date 18th of march
02:02:48 of march sorry 18th of october 2000 uh perhaps that's not the right date yes it's the bottom right hand corner of this document
02:03:04 which under sales detailed information you've got to scroll down a little bit further yes in the top right of your screen in front of you it says um created
02:03:15 created external deborah french 18th of october 2013. that's that's the date i think you get in your statement do you see that yes
02:03:26 did you make this entry at that time oh yes possibly uh if we look under project
02:03:37 if we look under project address which you will see um just a little bit uh above that in the page
02:03:49 can you see it says project address just above that it says type of building residential type of market public does that tell us that at this time october 2013 you knew
02:04:01 time october 2013 you knew that the grenfell tower project was a residential building and that it was part of public housing yes yes
02:04:13 can i then turn to uh another document um which is your exhibit df1 at met3019920 at page 31.
02:04:29 this is earlier in the year 2030
02:04:34 it looks like an automatically generated email dated the fifth of april 2013 and again sent to guadalajara
02:04:43 and you can see uh underneath that the text obj grenfell tower client studio e contact uh blaine
02:04:55 i'm sorry it's in french rebond 55 mud the transformation cassettes do you see that um format a6
02:05:06 do you see that um format a6 now do you remember making this entry yourself
02:05:11 yourself no that looking at the very top that's where it says from that's something that would have been generated by gwen i believe right but she would how would she have known to generate
02:05:22 how would she have known to generate these details unless she had had direct contact with studio e
02:05:28 studio e there could have been an email in direct requesting that or it could have been that i forwarded it on and she raised it in the crn system
02:05:36 system do you remember whether she ever had direct contact with studio e i don't recall no um is it i mean i don't want you to speculate but looking do the best you
02:05:47 speculate but looking do the best you can with your recollection is it right in fact those details came from you again it could have been an email that was sent in to both myself and gwen and that she's
02:05:59 both myself and gwen and that she's picked it up and entered it into the crm system or it could have been that i'd phoned her and asked her to do it i really can't recall do you recall whether there had been any discussions about the
02:06:10 discussions about the about using cassette in particular at this time april 2013 no i don't recall can you explain why mud de transformation is cassette as
02:06:22 mud de transformation is cassette as opposed to cassette or rivet or even just rivet no i don't know now looking at the format
02:06:29 format a6 that does that suggest that this was actually about a sample yes it would have been a smaller sample right
02:06:39 i'm now going to turn to a different topic also within 2013 which is the uae fires in late 2012 and early 2013. now in this next section i ought to give a
02:06:51 in this next section i ought to give a trigger warning we may be showing pictures of fires in tall buildings we saw one or two earlier but i just want to say that can we um can we start by going to claude schmidt's exhibit 10
02:07:06 met 3-0 is
02:07:11 i 53157 want to see what you know about this um
02:07:14 this um this is met 3053157 at page 32.
02:07:25 page 32 of this exhibit yes and at the very bottom of the page very bottom of the page there on the screen in front of you you can see uh the start of an article entitled
02:07:37 uh the start of an article entitled cladding blamed in skyscraper fire monday 20 november 26 2012 and over the page at page 33 you could see
02:07:47 see the substantive start of the article and an embedded video with a picture of a tower on fire and we we can't play and i'm not going to play the video but you can see the caption underneath
02:07:58 but you can see the caption underneath it and it says the fire at tamweel tower started near the top of the building and moved down raining down flaming pieces of the building onto the ground and this is november 2013.
02:08:11 this is november 2013. did you know at that time that there had been a cladding fire um at the tamweel tower which was in dubai
02:08:19 dubai on the 20th of november november 2012. i i recall there being a fire of some description in the uae but i didn't know the details or had no further
02:08:31 the details or had no further no further information or knowledge of it right so do we take it from that that you didn't know this about this specific fire no not the specific details no you remember any discussion within our
02:08:42 you remember any discussion within our conic either with peter frolic or with uh claude verle or or anybody else in those departments about the fact of a high-rise fire in a tall building in dubai at that time
02:08:54 in a tall building in dubai at that time november 2012. no i wouldn't have been party to any of those discussions i as i say i visited the factory very rarely and certainly wouldn't have been involved or even heard discussions going
02:09:06 involved or even heard discussions going on
02:09:07 on in merck's time there was another fire in april 2013 at the al haffit tower in the uae that was on the 22nd of april 2013. do
02:09:18 that was on the 22nd of april 2013. do you remember that no as i say i i recall a fire in the uae but i can't i couldn't begin to tell you what the details were when it was or what the project details
02:09:30 when it was or what the project details were right let's see how far we go with the next document then which is uh one of claude vale's exhibits part 10 page 157 and that is that
02:09:41 part 10 page 157 and that is that net30s 53158 underscore p10 at page 157
02:10:04 now this is an email uh from richard gieta
02:10:08 gieta of 3a to barry wingrove dated the 9th of may 2013. uh now we we understand that richard
02:10:19 uh now we we understand that richard guitar was the sales representative in the uk for a luco bond 3 8 um product and are you able to confirm that
02:10:28 that yes i believe he was yes uh he was effectively your direct competition is that there
02:10:37 now if we scroll um up very briefly to the bottom of page one 156
02:10:45 we can see that this email was passed on in turn
02:10:55 do you see by uh barry wingrove to a number of people uh on the 9th of may uh inclu
02:11:06 uh on the 9th of may uh inclu and copied to you do you see your name at the very bottom there cc and then just following the email up a little bit further on page one five six we can see that uh you if we just scroll down a
02:11:19 that uh you if we just scroll down a little bit you you sent that email on the 10th of may
02:11:24 may 2013 to peter froelich claude burleigh alan flacco and chloe schmidt morning all just to make you aware i sent this link over to claude w
02:11:35 sent this link over to claude w last week concerning a bbc report covering a fire in uae using acm richard guitar liquor bond rep in the uk is emailing all fabricators explaining that aluko bond is now using
02:11:47 explaining that aluko bond is now using a
02:11:47 a fire core only as standard and then you um embed the link into your email
02:11:55 email and then you go on to say would welcome any comments straight statement we have ref
02:11:59 ref and our standards so i can communicate this to our relevant customers and i've shown you that and i want just to get back now if i can to uh the email that uh barry wingrove sent
02:12:11 uh the email that uh barry wingrove sent can i just ask you barry wingrave he has an argonaut uk email address who was barry wingrave do you remember he was a fabricator he was a fabricator right
02:12:22 right um now
02:12:25 um now jeff blades also told us that he had received an email from richard guitar at about this time concerning this fire were you aware whether richard geeter of 3a was sending an email
02:12:36 3a was sending an email about this far to other fabricators like cep or
02:12:39 cep or did you not know i don't i can't recall the the instance of that happening
02:12:46 happening but he's obviously sent it to a number of people looking at that let's look then at the email he sends to barry wingred which gets passed to you and you pass on
02:12:58 which gets passed to you and you pass on within our comic up the chain and he starts by saying hi barry you may or may not have seen the recent press coverage of a fire a building fire in dubai clad in acm
02:13:09 and uh he then goes on to say after the link having taken the time
02:13:18 time to investigate with my colleague responsible for this market he has responded as follows and then if we we can see the response which is all in italics um if you go to the third paragraph of
02:13:30 um if you go to the third paragraph of the italics well first of all i should ask you when when you got this email um and then passed it up the chain did you read it
02:13:39 yes i probably did at the time but again i don't recall it it's a long time ago i understand that but i just want to confirm that i wouldn't have not i wouldn't have not read it no right
02:13:50 not i wouldn't have not read it no right okay can we then go for the third paragraph in the italics it says the trouble is that the cladding system here in particular but all over in general using pe is like a chimney
02:14:01 a chimney which transports the fire from bottom to top or vice versa within the shortest time
02:14:09 and then if you look at the fourth paragraph
02:14:12 paragraph he says the worst of all in our field you see the worst of all in our field of composite panels and then capital letters you do not get
02:14:23 and then capital letters you do not get what you see two exclamation marks and then it goes on the mult holding alubond people are responsible for the huge damage in this part of the world they since a very long time promote fire
02:14:35 they since a very long time promote fire quotes rated unquotes composite panels with a white core which when being tested turns out to be a recycled pe core burning like paper half of the country is full of this
02:14:46 half of the country is full of this rubbish due to price we have taken random samples and done a live test in bangkok in front of architects they almost fainted indeed this panel is a whole cheat and burns fiercely
02:15:01 did you read that message specifically as i say i i'm pretty sure i would have done but i don't recall reading it or even recognize it now
02:15:12 reading it or even recognize it now would it be right to conclude from the fact that you sent it on up the chain to senior people in our comic that you regarded it as an important message yes were you shocked by
02:15:24 yes were you shocked by what um barry wingrove was passing on to you from his colleague i don't recall i i can't remember what my response would have been but as i say having passed it on up i was
02:15:37 as i say having passed it on up i was obviously
02:15:37 obviously concerned about it did you appreciate that there was a view at least expressed in this email that a ventilated facade with a polyethylene panel called panel could transport fire
02:15:50 panel called panel could transport fire up
02:15:50 up a building like a chimney as he says i probably wouldn't have taken that element on board not being a having any knowledge of design did you
02:16:01 having any knowledge of design did you note his view or observation that the recycled pe burns like paper i don't recall what about the observation that architects when shown a
02:16:12 observation that architects when shown a live test almost fainted again i don't recall the specifics in that
02:16:18 that right really i'm just trying to get a feel for your reaction when you saw this email for the first time did it occur to you at that moment that pe called acm
02:16:30 pe called acm was not fire safe uh again i can't comment on how i would have felt i i've obviously sent it to merkstein for a reason
02:16:40 a reason and would have expected them to you know comment as appropriate and if it was affecting what we were doing here then i would have had the necessary information
02:16:51 have had the necessary information did it occur to you from reading this that pe called acm might be dangerous
02:16:58 probably not no um it would again it would have been relevant to the to the bba document if anything was altering then and then i would have been notified about that
02:17:09 notified about that did you note mr gita's comment uh after the end of the italics well that actually to be fair to you and i'll try to show you this yeah let's let's let's scroll down a little bit if we can
02:17:20 let's scroll down a little bit if we can so i haven't let me show you that after the end of the italics if you scroll down
02:17:25 down on page 157
02:17:31 shane if the witness could be shown 157 uh after the italics which are the quotations mr gita says again the perils of using cheap acm alternatives have been exposed
02:17:43 alternatives have been exposed as you are aware our standard core is the plus
02:17:46 the plus fr mineral core achieving class b s1 d naught according to en 13501.1 unlike other acm producers
02:17:57 unlike other acm producers now i'm assuming that since you read this email and passed it on you would have read
02:18:02 have read that sentence
02:18:06 possibly yes
02:18:12 when you did read that sentence did it occur to you that your competitor mr gita at 3a regarded the european classifications
02:18:24 regarded the european classifications as relevant
02:18:28 i wouldn't have taken that on board as i say
02:18:31 say my my knowledge i do not i didn't have enough knowledge in in those areas i would have sent that on for
02:18:38 on for other people to be guiding as to what you know whether the materials we've got were suitable or not did it not occur to you at the time that that given what you've told us
02:18:51 that that given what you've told us about your view about the relevance of the european fire classifications did you not ask yourself
02:18:56 yourself or wonder why it was that mr guitar was referring to them given that you were competing in the same market no right uh when he says that the perils of using
02:19:08 when he says that the perils of using cheap acm have been exposed did that not cause you some concern or surprise
02:19:15 surprise um again i can't comment because i can't remember how i reacted at the time right did you note the fact that uh 3a's standard product was an fr
02:19:26 3a's standard product was an fr product i knew at the time that their product
02:19:29 product had been changed to an fr did you wonder why
02:19:33 why yours happened again i was being guided by merck's time if they thought it was relevant then that's what they would have provided us
02:19:45 do you know from your own recollection whether a leukobond 3a that is stopped selling
02:19:50 selling pe called a leukobond at this time i don't recall
02:19:59 did you have any thoughts about whether perhaps arconic should stop selling pe core and offer fr as standard in all regions
02:20:07 regions at this time um again i can't i can't recall in 2013 whether that was whether i did or didn't right can we
02:20:19 whether i did or didn't right can we look up then to
02:20:23 uh well we've seen page 156 and the email that you folded on on the 10th of may
02:20:29 may uh
02:20:32 you say in your statement uh
02:20:37 that you sent this and i just i just want to show you what you say on page 156 if we can just scroll up to that
02:20:52 i've shown you the text there and your you link the story or rather the the topic which mr geeta is passing on to you
02:21:02 to you um to a link that you'd already sent to claude verley the previous week concerning of the bbc report
02:21:10 report covering afar in the uae using acm so do we take it from that that even before mr
02:21:17 before mr gita's message to mr wingrove and that coming to you even before that you were aware of this fire and thought appropriate to discuss it with mr verde
02:21:29 discuss it with mr verde yes do you remember what you said to mr verde
02:21:34 verde about it at the time no i don't what was the purpose of your bringing that fire to mr verlay's attention even before you'd seen the guitar message
02:21:45 guitar message uh it was possibly because of some questions that were coming from some uk uh uk customers do you remember receiving questions from uk customers
02:21:57 uk customers about this fire i remember um i think it was related to that particular fire i remember receiving a um one or possibly two emails from customers about it
02:22:10 emails from customers about it do you remember which customers uh i believe
02:22:13 believe i had an email from simcoe over there and anybody else um i don't recall any others right and what was the nature of the query you
02:22:24 and what was the nature of the query you recall
02:22:26 recall uh i think it was just again highlighting that there had been uh some fires and and just alerting me to to them or making me aware of them
02:22:37 making me aware of them and what did you want mr burleigh to do i don't recall what i was what i was thinking at the time when it was possibly some reassurances that
02:22:48 possibly some reassurances that everything we were doing was was was okay and i was okay to carry on did mr burleigh respond to your message that we could see here that you sent him the previous week i don't recall specifically whether he
02:23:00 i don't recall specifically whether he did or didn't in passing these messages or this email up the chain to seniors at arconic
02:23:11 email up the chain to seniors at arconic um you're obviously bringing it to their attention because you thought it was important
02:23:15 important as you told us were you looking for looking to them to give you lines of communication that you could give to customers who called in and asked about it
02:23:27 about it yes i was obviously needing some some sort of reassurance that we were we i was okay to carry on as i was and be told differently otherwise did
02:23:38 be told differently otherwise did anybody from the group of people to whom you sent this email respond to you i don't recall specifically if they did or didn't
02:23:47 or didn't so you don't remember whether anyone told you what to tell customers uh i'm sure he would have had a response but i can't i i can't remember specifically what it was what that communication was or what
02:23:59 was what that communication was or what it
02:24:00 it involved you remember the gist the flavor
02:24:03 flavor of what you were told to say to customers in response to this this event
02:24:12 again i can't remember specifically
02:24:18 um do you remember that you sent an email to fabricators on the 13th of may 2013 yes later
02:24:29 of may 2013 yes later we find that at met3053173 at page 79. we can go to that please
02:24:47 now this is an email from you dated as we can see the 13th of may 2013 to to graham smith and john simmons simcoe
02:24:58 simcoe copper to claude verlais and peter froelich
02:25:01 froelich subject bbc report ref acm in uae um and if we could just have that on the left hand side of the screen and pull up the identical version that it
02:25:13 pull up the identical version that it appears you also sent to c e p the same day that's at cdp3049719
02:25:22 please
02:25:29 uh we can see just looking at the right hand side you said this one the same day at around about the same time but in fact two minutes later
02:25:40 fact two minutes later on the morning of the 13th of may at 2 cep
02:25:46 cep and it looks as if you can confirm that the text is exactly the same yes it is it is we can work with either of these emails
02:25:57 we can work with either of these emails it doesn't matter which let's go with the first one i put up which is the one to
02:26:02 to graham smith and john simmons
02:26:05 you as i've shown you you can see that cloud valley and peter frederick were copied
02:26:09 copied um peter freddix in his evidence uh says that he spoke to you about the contents of this email that you sent and then he says that a paragraph 15. 57.1.2 of his statement
02:26:21 57.1.2 of his statement at page 20 just for our reference can you confirm from your recollection that peter frodo did speak to you about the contents of this email
02:26:32 this email um i can't recollect that uh exactly but i wouldn't have put that sort of information together without having some sort of guidance from merck sign right did you draft this email
02:26:44 sign right did you draft this email yourself
02:26:46 yourself i don't recall whether i did or didn't or whether it was a combination of some wording from merck time and me adding stuff in i can't recall right do you remember who was involved
02:26:57 right do you remember who was involved in pulling together the text of this email
02:26:59 email apart from you and possibly peter frody no i don't i would have said that if it's gone if i've copied in claude and peter then it would have been those two
02:27:10 sorry like sorry do you want to finish your answer i don't know whether that would have then gone up from them up further i don't know
02:27:19 we can see from those two examples on the screen that you send one to simcoe and another to cep was this a general round robin that you were sending to all of your small
02:27:30 sending to all of your small group of fabricators if i've sent it to those two and done it straight away then yes i could very well have been sending it to
02:27:38 it to the key fabricators that we were working with
02:27:41 with did anybody tell you uh to whom to send this email no they wouldn't necessarily have done that right so whose idea was it uh just to send it to these two
02:27:53 uh just to send it to these two fabricators or the fabricators in general that would have probably been guided by me because i obviously know the customers that were asking the relevant questions right we've seen that claude vale
02:28:06 right we've seen that claude vale was copied into the version on the left the one that went into simcoe although it doesn't appear that he was copied into the one on the right
02:28:15 right is it fair to say to the best of your recollection that clovelly knew what you were saying to customers yes
02:28:22 yes and that he approved it uh he would have been aware of it yeah yes yes um now
02:28:35 did you consider sending this email to end customers for example studio e with whom you would have meetings on the grenfell tower project
02:28:46 meetings on the grenfell tower project no
02:28:51 uh you you don't mention in your statement
02:28:54 statement that you sent this email to cep and it's a simcoe
02:28:58 a simcoe what why is that i don't recall having sent it to cep until just seeing the email that you've shown me i see does that mean that when you were preparing your statement nobody showed you the version of this
02:29:11 nobody showed you the version of this email you sent to the the version that you sent to cep no i've just seen the the one sent to simcoe
02:29:20 why didn't you consider sending this email to
02:29:24 email to end customers outside the group of fabricators um i don't recall and i don't recall i don't i can't recall how who even
02:29:36 i don't i can't recall how who even received that email apart from the two that you've shown me i don't know let's now look at the text of the message uh if you can go back to it please
02:29:48 met3053173 page 79. this is the one sent to graham smith and john simmons copied to
02:29:53 to claude verne
02:29:58 uh and peter froelich as we can see and i'm just going to show the whole thing to you take it slowly you say hi as you may be aware there had
02:30:09 you say hi as you may be aware there had been some reports via bbc concerning a fire on a building in uae regarding acn as a business we are aware of this report and our technical team are following the details but in the
02:30:21 following the details but in the meantime i wanted to add some thoughts that may help if you get questions from your customers straight clients etc regarding the supply of raynaud in the uk
02:30:33 uk as you know we supply both pe and fr core and can control and understand what core is being used in all projects due to the controlled supply route we
02:30:44 due to the controlled supply route we have by only supplying rhino bond to a very small group of approved fabricators and working very closely with them on all projects we are able to follow what type of project is being designed
02:30:56 what type of project is being designed stroke developed and then offer the right reiner bond specification including the core at this stage we will continue to offer both pe and
02:31:07 we will continue to offer both pe and fr core and continue the close working relationship we have with our approved fabricators to make sure the right technical support rayleigh bond specification and materials are being used and installed
02:31:19 materials are being used and installed on raino bond projects many thanks for making me aware of the reports and for your continued support just looking at those two paragraphs
02:31:34 just looking at those two paragraphs before the end the third and fourth paragraphs one starting regarding the supply of rayna bond and the next one which starts at this stage it's looking at those two paragraphs
02:31:45 paragraphs when you wrote those two paragraphs describing our comics practice there was what you said in those paragraphs
02:31:54 true i think looking back on it um there was uh they were sent as a some information to the fabricators to
02:32:06 some information to the fabricators to give them some comfort that we were um aware of what was going on i think some of the language that's been used in it is uh i wouldn't necessarily put back in
02:32:19 is uh i wouldn't necessarily put back in there again it's probably um heavy on the sales side
02:32:26 can you well let's go through it let's go through it i'm going to come back to that answer shortly if i can because i just want to understand it a little better but before we do
02:32:35 we do let's just see if we can break down for absolute clarity what it is you're saying here and was it true that arconic controlled and understood what core was being used in all projects
02:32:49 was being used in all projects no was it true that arconic worked very closely with the fabricators it approved
02:32:58 we worked we did work closely with the fabricators that we were that we were supplying materials to was arconic able to follow what type of project was being designed
02:33:10 project was being designed or developed only through the crm system and the information that was being put and developed in there was it true that our comic would then offer the right renault specification including the core
02:33:30 so those four statements i've just put to you
02:33:35 to you of those four statements two were false and two have to be qualified in the way you've done that's right isn't it
02:33:46 isn't it yes
02:33:52 so it wasn't true to say to your fabricators including cep that arconic informed itself in sufficient detail about each project
02:34:03 about each project so as to be able to advise whether an fr core or a pe core was suitable
02:34:10 no if it wasn't true why did you make those statements
02:34:18 as i say and reading back on it now um it was not the right thing to put in there and it was as i say very heavy on on
02:34:30 as i say very heavy on on in terms of the wording it was it was it was too heavy on the on the sales side
02:34:36 side um to basically give customers some comfort that we were we were still able to continue with what we were doing
02:34:46 heavy on the sales side what do you mean as in uh it was a document that was sent to give them some reassurances that the
02:34:57 to give them some reassurances that the business was comfortable with offering the materials that we were offering and that it was all still it was all still okay for us to use and supply
02:35:07 supply based on at least two full statements
02:35:11 as i say reading back reading the details again in the context of what we're looking at now then it wasn't the it wasn't the right thing to have sent
02:35:23 you knew at the time that at least two of these statements i've put to you were false
02:35:29 false didn't you i wouldn't have said i looked at it in that sense um as i say i was
02:35:35 was i was sending a communication out to our customers to say that they were still okay to deal with us and that we were still providing materials
02:35:45 materials in in the way that they needed when you told cep and other fabricators that arconic informed itself in sufficient detail about each project so as to be able to advise whether an fr
02:35:58 so as to be able to advise whether an fr core or a pr call was suitable not only was that false but it appears that you knew it was false is that right no i wouldn't have necessarily known
02:36:09 necessarily known that in that context at the time as i say reading it now in in the details that we're looking at today
02:36:17 today um no i would never i wouldn't have sent that information out what have you learned since you wrote this email you know at the time which when you
02:36:28 you know at the time which when you wrote it at the time you didn't know that what i just put to you was false i've i've learned in a huge amount since um i'm in an enormous amount as i say as
02:36:39 um i'm in an enormous amount as i say as i've said
02:36:40 i've said numerous occasions the the topic of fire my understanding of it the implications of it were just not discussed in in the market so i
02:36:51 just not discussed in in the market so i was
02:36:51 was i was basically trying to give the customers that were asking at the time some reassurances that we were we were doing the right things
02:37:02 we were we were doing the right things and the
02:37:03 and the wording that i've used in that was looking back on it now was not necessarily the right thing to what was not the right way to have worded it or sent it
02:37:14 let's take the two statements that you accepted straight away were false archonic control and understand what core is being used in all projects not only was that false but you knew that was false at the time
02:37:27 was false at the time as you as i say in at the time of writing it i hadn't thought of it in that context i didn't write it knowing that that was the context it was being written in when you said in this email that our
02:37:39 when you said in this email that our controlled and understood what core is being used in all projects you accepted that that was a false statement and what i'm putting to you is that when you made that full statement you knew it was false
02:37:51 you knew it was false do you accept that the some of the wording in there as to say was was not was not in the way that it should have been um and so yes some of that wording was
02:38:02 um and so yes some of that wording was should not have been put in there in the way that it was in the context of what we're looking at how we're looking at it today
02:38:08 today mr french there's a difference i would suggest to you between unfortunate wording that could be worded better on the one hand and a statement that is factually false on the other
02:38:19 factually false on the other do you understand that difference i do understand the difference and i'm just trying to explain that at the time
02:38:25 the time with the market in the way that it was with the knowledge that i had then i'd written that in in that in that vein
02:38:33 vein i had not written that deliberately to write
02:38:37 write false information in there when you when you wrote in this email that arconic controlled and understood what core is being used in all projects you accept that that was false what was it that led you to think that it was
02:38:48 it that led you to think that it was true
02:38:50 true there was sometimes customers would ask for warranty warranties on the buildings there was a warranty questionnaire that would have been
02:38:59 been sent in to merck's time and there was information on there that could have been picked up if it wasn't
02:39:06 wasn't relevant because they wouldn't have offered a warranty against the questionnaire so that would have been the information that they were that we could have been looking at in the first of the two paragraphs i'm
02:39:17 in the first of the two paragraphs i'm taking you to you don't say sometimes what you say is that you supply and can control and understand what core is being used in all projects
02:39:30 yeah and as i've explained reading back on some of that wording it was not uh and looking at the context that i wrote it then and the context of what how i'm writing it now
02:39:41 what how i'm writing it now and looking at it now uh i wouldn't have done i wouldn't have written that what was it at the time that led you to believe that the statement that arconic can
02:39:53 that the statement that arconic can control and understand what core is being used in all projects was true i don't know
02:40:04 what was it that led you to believe that arconic could offer the right reign of on specification including the core
02:40:12 was true i don't know i'm bound to suggest to you that at least in those two respects
02:40:24 least in those two respects those statements were not only false as even accepted but you knew them to be false
02:40:31 false as i've explained if i'd understood the context of what i was doing at the time then i wouldn't have worded it in that way i did not write that information on there with that
02:40:42 that information on there with that intention
02:40:44 intention can we look at page 12 of your second witness statement please
02:40:52 and i'd like to look with you please paragraph 44
02:41:01 and you say four lines down
02:41:07 you say this uh how the finished product was assembled and whether it complied with relevant regulations was a mass for the customer or otherwise the person who designed the rain screen clouding system
02:41:19 rain screen clouding system now how do you reconcile that statement in
02:41:22 in this part of your witness statement with the email
02:41:26 the email of the 13th of may that we've just been looking at yeah i can't and as as i explained and i would say the same thing again looking at that email now
02:41:38 at that email now and in the context of what i wrote at the time
02:41:41 the time then i i did it for for those reasons and some of the wording was was not how i would be writing it now with the knowledge that i now have
02:41:54 do you think it might actually be the case that what you wrote in your 13th of may email was true and what you're saying in your statement about not knowing
02:42:05 about not knowing uh about the finished product and it being a matter for the customer was untrue no what's in my statement is true it is it is uh is down for the people they
02:42:17 uh is down for the people they understand what the and final end use of the building is going to
02:42:25 now be um look in your witness statement at paragraph 96.4 on page 32 please uh
02:42:40 96.4 on page 32 please uh you uh say here
02:42:46 and this is just to be uh clear to you this is uh uh you this is in relation to this email
02:42:58 uh you this is in relation to this email uh and that in fact starts on uh in the previous paragraph 96.3 perhaps we should just show you that for the full context to be fair to you
02:43:09 fair to you 96.3 on the 13th of may 2013 i sent an email to graeme smith etc etc and then you say uh in 96.4 i do not recall sending this
02:43:22 uh in 96.4 i do not recall sending this email but reading it now i think it requires some clarification in particular and then you say at 96.4.1 arconic did not proactively check what court had been ordered for any particular project
02:43:34 particular project and whether that called complied with building regulations or any other legislation neither do i ever recall advising any customer that they required a particular call
02:43:42 call or that a certain call was inappropriate i was in a position to do so what i meant was that technical support was available if it should be needed through the technical sales support team
02:43:53 uh and the page uh institute's support team uh if the customer had uh queries about the product including the core
02:44:04 product including the core in practice this would involve me seeking a response from the technical sales support team and providing this to a customer or asking for the technical sales support team to engage with the customer direct i just want to focus if i can on
02:44:17 direct i just want to focus if i can on the worst
02:44:18 the worst bottom of the previous page at the top of this page let's just look at them again
02:44:22 again if you go to the bottom of the previous page
02:44:25 page you say what i meant was you go back there you say what i meant was that the technical support was available if it should be needed through the technical sales support team
02:44:37 the technical sales support team if uh over the page customer had queries about the product including the core now that sentence there is that not completely contradictory of what you said in your 13th of may 2013 email
02:44:53 yes it it doesn't the two don't uh correlate
02:44:57 correlate no sorry
02:45:00 no sorry as i've explained having read that email again
02:45:03 again and in the context of how i wrote it at the time
02:45:06 the time and i am now saying that my knowledge now i wouldn't have written it in the way that i have but it's not that they don't just correlate they're completely contradictory of one another
02:45:21 yes and if you had really meant at the time that
02:45:24 time that a customer should contact the technical sales support team if they had any queries
02:45:28 queries and you would very simply have said so in your email yes i would have done well why didn't you i don't know in fact you wouldn't have put anything
02:45:39 put anything that we've seen in the last well those two main paragraphs of that email out to your customers would you no as to say i've having read that email i've i don't i wouldn't have written it
02:45:52 i've i don't i wouldn't have written it in that way and i don't know what i don't know what i was thinking to do it why would you have told your valued customers in this small group of fabricators who are essential
02:46:05 group of fabricators who are essential for your route to market a series of lies why haven't you done that
02:46:11 that so i didn't set out to do that that's not wasn't my intention at all the and having re-read that then my knowledge now i wouldn't have written it like that
02:46:24 written it like that and i feel bad to suggest to you that the clarification that you're setting out here in your witness statement is an argument you've come up with after the event to try to get away from what you said to
02:46:35 to try to get away from what you said to all of your fabricators in your 13th of may email no i'm just trying to explain what how i would think about that now rather than the way that i did at the time
02:46:53 the way that i did at the time and in fact your practice as described at the time was true at the time you made it you made no false statements to your customers
02:47:03 customers but what you've come up with in your statement trying to explain that email away
02:47:06 away is the true falsehood here
02:47:10 you accept that sorry i'm not following what you're what you're asking me putting to you is that your email of the 13th of may was actually true in all its respects you told you made no false statements
02:47:22 you told you made no false statements to your customers and it's your witness statement now which is false in pretending uh that the contents of that email were as you would say there requiring
02:47:33 as you would say there requiring explanation but in fact false as you've explained
02:47:36 explained no i don't believe that's right
02:48:01 uh going back to or going on to paragraph 96.4 in yours 96.4.2 of your statement just below what we've been looking at you say iconic did not have
02:48:13 you say iconic did not have approved fabricators in any formal sense rather arconic simply supplied rene bond to a small number of fabricators in the uk
02:48:22 uk i felt that working with a small number of fabricators would generate a form of brand loyalty so that they would be willing to recommend radio bond when responding to tenders
02:48:31 tenders the uk fabricators that our colleague primarily worked with were simcoe cep satay cgl and argonaut we were we occasionally worked with a fabricator called ash and lacey and some other four fabricators
02:48:42 fabricators but this was not often
02:48:45 now is it your evidence that contrary to what you say in the 13th of may 2013 email archonic doesn't have approved fabricators in the
02:48:56 doesn't have approved fabricators in the uk
02:48:58 uk we don't have no there wasn't approved they didn't have to go through a set of um procedures or demonstrate anything to be an approved fabricator in truth
02:49:11 an approved fabricator in truth supplying to a small group of known fabricators was a marketing strategy wasn't it yes it wasn't for reasons of comics assurance about safety by fire safety or any other quality
02:49:22 fire safety or any other quality assurance no if was it not though true that you whether they were approved in that sense or simply part of your marketing
02:49:34 or simply part of your marketing strategy
02:49:35 strategy was it not the case that you you worked with a small number of fabricators so that you could keep a close eye on each project and be able to give bespoke advice about whether the right core was going
02:49:46 about whether the right core was going onto the right building no main reasons for only working with such a small group was that fabricators at the time were
02:49:59 looking to work looking for us to pass any leads that we had which was relatively small compared to some of our competitors onto them we would only pass those leads
02:50:11 onto them we would only pass those leads on to
02:50:12 on to one or two of them at a time rather than some of our competitors that would give a lead out to a consider the majority of the fabricators
02:50:25 i'm sorry to finish your answer that was that was the main reason for it was passing of leads and generating leads and awareness of rena bond or any work that they were picking up that they
02:50:36 that they were picking up that they would
02:50:37 would look to pass on look to getting renabond involved with
02:50:44 if the 13th of may email 2013 email was uh as false as you've accepted that it was what was the point of sending it
02:50:58 as i say i having read it again uh and looking at the context at the time rather than the context of what we all understand now um i i i don't know
02:51:10 um i i i don't know what what message were you seeking to convey to the fabricators in that 13th of may email can't answer that question i i don't know
02:51:20 know did anybody more senior to you in arconic um require you to send that email in those terms
02:51:28 terms i can't recall did you tell anybody in our comic that you couldn't send this email out in this form because it was substantially false sorry say that again did you tell
02:51:40 sorry say that again did you tell anybody in arconic peter froelich for example claude velle for example that you weren't prepared to send this email out to this valued group of fabricators because it it contains substantially false
02:51:51 it contains substantially false statements i don't recall you would have done wouldn't you if you if you had been put up to be to sending out an email to valued customers fabricators being your customers which
02:52:03 fabricators being your customers which you knew was substantially false you would have objected wouldn't you
02:52:09 i would i would have questioned it and as i say
02:52:12 as i say having read that that document again in the context of at the time of what my knowledge at the time i
02:52:20 time i i wouldn't and looking at the context of it now i wouldn't have sent it we've seen no trace of any communications between between you and claude verlay or mr frolic peter froelich in which you
02:52:34 or mr frolic peter froelich in which you tell them that you're not prepared to send this message in this form with these statements in it to your customer base do we take it from that you never did object to doing so
02:52:45 object to doing so i don't recall i'm going to suggest you that
02:52:49 that you you didn't do so and the reason you didn't do so is because there was nothing to object to and the reason there was nothing to objective is because there's nothing false in any of those statements you were quite content to send them out
02:53:01 you were quite content to send them out i
02:53:02 i don't know i can't i can't answer that
02:53:13 now can we just go back
02:53:22 to presentation we saw in june 2013 met 3019917
02:53:33 we looked at this earlier on at a different point in the questioning um this is your presentation of june 2013.
02:53:45 of june 2013. remember we looked at this um and it says sales meeting june 2013. was this at uh a sales meeting um such as that you would attend every year
02:53:56 such as that you would attend every year at merck's time or perhaps twice a year at merck's time uh possibly i yes i don't recall but possibly yes what was the target audience
02:54:09 yes what was the target audience of that meeting rather of this slideshow if it was the annual sales meeting it would have been the other european other managers sales managers from other
02:54:22 managers sales managers from other countries
02:54:23 countries european countries that was sometimes there was internal sales people there a technical team and various other people from production and further up would be
02:54:33 would be coming in and out now we looked at page 10
02:54:37 10 earlier on um let me just remind you of what that looks like page 10 of this slideshow this is the route to market um slide we saw earlier on and i asked you some questions about that
02:54:49 you some questions about that um if we go to the the next page page 11 there's a specific uh message to taylor maxwell and fabricators i don't think we did look at which is why i'm coming to it now and uh
02:55:01 which is why i'm coming to it now and uh says on the right um there's a picture of the british isles not completely accurate one uh in blue with uh the geographical locations of what you call approved rb fabricators and there's a
02:55:13 approved rb fabricators and there's a list of six of them cgl satech cep simcoe downer and argonauts
02:55:23 and the messages on the left-hand side in the red next to the bullet points say cell specification to architects sell concept of special color
02:55:34 concept of special color offer to match other materials push design stroke effects stroke nat understand what the client and this is in capitals really wants understand what the client really wants
02:55:45 really wants cpd presentations to architects get in there early now those messages in this slideshow this is june 2013 only a month after you sent this may email
02:55:56 sent this may email are consistent aren't they with the message that you sent to these fabricators on the 13th of may 2013.
02:56:05 um no i don't think so this is this is an internal document that was this is what i would be talking to the fabric
02:56:13 fabric fabricators and basically what i was doing was
02:56:16 doing was selling talking to architects um focusing heavily on the on the special colors that we had matching other colors from other competitors
02:56:28 competitors um promoting certain designs which was being uh which is something we were being asked to do from merck slime i designed the effects in the natural the
02:56:39 designed the effects in the natural the they understand what the client really wants was
02:56:42 wants was to do more with the color and the aesthetics to understand exactly what they want
02:56:47 they want what they wanted their building to end up looking like um and cpds to architects doesn't this slideshow in particular page 10 we looked at on this page page 11
02:56:58 looked at on this page page 11 um show that in fact you were operating or seeking to operate a tightly controlled supply chain no only in as much as the main reason
02:57:09 no only in as much as the main reason for working with such few uh as i said such few fabricators was those fabricators would get a lot of leads in from other competitors who had got
02:57:20 who had got huge exposures to the market far greater than reyna bond but they were competing very very heavily with multiple fabricators and part of what we
02:57:31 multiple fabricators and part of what we were doing was any leads that we had we would pass it to
02:57:36 to two or three of them and therefore they weren't
02:57:39 weren't the the pricing of the those um those projects potentially were only between
02:57:46 between sort of you know a small handful of those fabricators rather than multiple hand
02:57:51 hand fabricators when you see in the third bullet point from the bottom understand what the client really wants really wants
02:58:01 why did you accentuate the word really i don't know i can't recall it's it's a presentation that was put together for internal purposes and was not sent out
02:58:12 internal purposes and was not sent out externally what did you mean by understanding what the client really wants in terms of generally in terms of colors and and what they wanted to look like
02:58:23 and and what they wanted to look like and that presumably was entirely consistent with the idea that you knew what
02:58:27 what product was going on to what building in what project no it was to understand what color that they particularly wanted but
02:58:34 but um as i say that was written uh at the time for an internal document for a presentation only this was not necessarily anything that was given out to those fabricators
02:58:46 was given out to those fabricators specifically or i would have necessarily discussed with those fabricators i'm not suggesting that it was given to the fabricators what i'm suggesting is that this reflects your in your own
02:58:59 is that this reflects your in your own strategy and what i'm suggesting specifically is that the strategy that you are presenting to your sales colleagues in june 2013 is entirely consistent with
02:59:11 in june 2013 is entirely consistent with the messages that you were giving your fabricators indeed members of this self-same list on this side you accept that i don't recall i don't recall what my my thought process was in terms of what
02:59:23 my thought process was in terms of what the itemized aries would have been of the word really well when you say you don't recall i i'm not really sure i understand what you mean by don't call here's a document you made i'm showing you
02:59:36 document you made i'm showing you uh and even though i you may not be able to remember precisely your thought process
02:59:40 process what i'm suggesting to you is that your internal strategy
02:59:45 as demonstrated by this slide was entirely consistent with the email you sent to your fabricators
02:59:54 no i wouldn't necessarily put those two together
02:59:58 together in that context
03:00:01 you wouldn't necessarily put them together what i'm suggesting to you is that
03:00:05 that you can put them together because the 13th of may email matched externally what you were saying internally no i don't think that was the reason i put this slide together that wasn't my
03:00:16 put this slide together that wasn't my thinking on this slide here it was purely to generate how we were going to be generating additional leads and awareness in the market it was i don't believe it was anything to do with that
03:00:28 anything to do with that understanding what the client really wants rather suggests some kind of tailoring or bespoking of your product to the client's needs isn't that
03:00:40 to the client's needs isn't that i think this was this was written in the in the context of understanding how we could
03:00:47 could increase our awareness within the market no nothing more i would suggest to you just before we break that the messages that you're giving to
03:00:58 that the messages that you're giving to your sales team in this document is completely inconsistent with the idea that renault bond 55 sheets
03:01:07 sheets leave our comics factory unfabricated and that is the last you hear see or know of their destiny you accept that
03:01:19 once they'd left mercsheim and arrive with a fabricator uh on a lot of occasions we wouldn't see anything to do with the project after that i may have
03:01:30 that i may have i took various pictures of or obtained various
03:01:33 various pictures of finished products projects but not necessarily all of them so i wouldn't necessarily follow those projects
03:01:42 projects once their materials have left us this is john i've got one very short question still on this document um can you ask it mr millett it is very short if we could just turn to the next
03:01:53 short if we could just turn to the next page of this slideshow please
03:02:00 here is a list of uh i suppose logos really of well-known construction companies in the uk you can see keep moat weights
03:02:12 you can see keep moat weights uh lovell balfour beatty wilmot dixon these are familiar names uh under the heading route to market
03:02:21 what was the purpose of this slide
03:02:25 i don't recall i think it was again it was that our we were starting to um our fabricators would be working with some of those people
03:02:35 people and that's again who we would start to get exposure through through some of those routes no more no less did you deal with any of these organizations directly or were you looking to deal with them
03:02:46 were you looking to deal with them directly
03:02:46 directly no we wouldn't have had any need to deal with them directly in that sense what was the relevance of to of these organizations to your business that our fabricators
03:02:58 to your business that our fabricators would be working at some point through them and that our awareness of renabond awareness would then be
03:03:06 then be filtering its way through to these people because they would be using the renault material on site i see i see very well um
03:03:17 i see very well um mr chairman is that a convenient moment i should just say we will be coming back to the may email after the break i think we should have a break at that point just a minute miss french we're going to stop there so
03:03:29 miss french we're going to stop there so we can all have some lunch we'll come back at five past two please and uh please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it over the break
03:03:42 or anything to do with it over the break all right
03:03:44 all right thank you very much
03:04:04 you