Deborah French of Arconic gives evidence about selling Reynobond PE. She admits limited understanding of fire regulations, never questioned European classifications, and when asked if PE would burn, her colleague responded 'Oh my lord! You're not allowed to diffuse to the customer those documents.'
00:00:01 good afternoon everyone we are now ready to continue taking evidence
00:00:06 evidence miss french can you see me can you hear me yes i can thank you sir good thank you very much and you're ready to carry on yes thank you thank you yes mr millet kevin thank you very much
00:00:17 very much welcome back miss french uh i i'd like to ask you about approved document b now please which is at clg 50224
00:00:28 can we go please um uh in this document uh to page 97.
00:00:38 now i'm going to ask you some questions about this but in fairness to you i do understand and we have noted your evidence in your statements that you didn't have a detailed understanding of
00:00:49 didn't have a detailed understanding of these building regulations it just confirmed for us is that correct yeah that's correct um in general terms have you ever seen or did you ever see this document during the time you were
00:01:01 this document during the time you were working for iconic no i didn't have you heard the phrase approved document b during the time you were working for iconic i don't know i don't recall i had
00:01:12 iconic i don't know i don't recall i had right um it may not matter very much if we look at page 97 you can see something called diagram 40 and i'm going to assume you've never seen or you had during your time at uh iconic never seen this
00:01:26 uh iconic never seen this diagram before is that right no i haven't right even today have you ever seen it before i have now but i have no time right so just to be clear
00:01:38 time right so just to be clear you say you have now you don't mean just now but before you've come together yes in the last well since this happened then then yes i have seen it since but not
00:01:48 not not before now if you look at the bottom row of diagrams on that page uh you can see that they're listed d any building an e any building and the bottom row of
00:01:59 any building and the bottom row of diagrams is buildings over 18 meters and if you match the darker shading to the key at the side you can see that there's a reference to class naught national class as the second box down on the right hand side can you see that
00:02:10 the right hand side can you see that yes uh and we've now seen references to class naught in two documents already in your in this evidence you're giving today
00:02:17 today when you were working for arconic did you know what class naught national class met
00:02:23 not in the not in its truest technical terms no
00:02:27 terms no i knew it was covered on a bba certificate um and that's pretty much my understanding of it at the time to the extent of your understanding what did class naught net mean it meant that it was a
00:02:40 mean it meant that it was a classification for fire um and it was more spread of fire but that would have been my my limited understanding of it what did you understand at the time that it signified to customers
00:02:53 signified to customers the the bbas covered was the bba was to a class so and therefore it would it fell within the necessary regulations leaving the bba out of it at the moment just
00:03:06 bba out of it at the moment just taking the expression class o as you call it class and autism i think it is what did you understand that meant to a customer reading it or reading it in a document that they could use it within
00:03:18 could use it within the within necessary buildings over here when you say necessary buildings over here what do you mean that could be used on on buildings in the uk
00:03:29 the uk any building yeah again i would have i wouldn't have i didn't know have any understanding of that particular knowledge at the time so yes i would have thought i would have said that
00:03:40 that right did you understand at least this much that it was relevant to fire performance yes i did did what was its relevance to fire performance that you understood
00:03:52 i can't explain exactly it's not something that was re it's not something i ever really had any discussions with anybody about individual on individual buildings
00:04:04 individual on individual buildings if i was asked for information i would pass it on it's not something i had conversations with so i didn't i didn't look into a lot of the detail on it and i didn't understand a lot of it
00:04:15 lot of it did you understand that it indicated uh performance under or according to a british standard
00:04:25 again it was more to do with the fact that it was on a bba document rather than a document b so i
00:04:33 i yes i knew it was it was related to a fire classification but much more than that no i didn't have any more understanding of it when you say it was related to a fire classification
00:04:44 classification can i just be a little bit specific did you understand that when the phrase class naught or class o as you put it appeared it indicated what was supposed to indicate
00:04:55 indicate that the product had been tested to standard bs 476 part six and seven i wouldn't necessarily have known that specifically if somebody had asked me that at the time uh
00:05:06 that at the time uh you know back when i was with with the company i wouldn't know i wouldn't have been able to answer that question
00:05:14 were you ever asked by customers if reyno bond pe55 was class naught
00:05:21 um i possibly was again i can't recall exact conversations or times or events that that question was asked but yes i probably was asked that what would you answer
00:05:32 was asked that what would you answer to the best of your record i would i would have sent them a copy of the certificate the bba certificate so that they could make their own um conclusions as to
00:05:43 make their own um conclusions as to whether it was suitable for them or not but if somebody said to you ms french is reynabond pe55 class naught class a what would you have answered
00:05:54 what would you have answered i would have said yes it was um can we then
00:05:58 then sticking with this document on the screen look please at diagram 40. again you can see um at the bottom
00:06:10 again you can see um at the bottom uh there are some notes i'll come back to the notes in a minute but the box on the right hand side says class naught national class or class b s3 d2
00:06:23 class b s3 d2 or better european class now when you were working for arconic did you know anything about european fire testing or european classifier classification
00:06:35 classifier classification for products no i knew that obviously renabond had european classification certificates for various things but again i wouldn't have studied them or
00:06:46 again i wouldn't have studied them or necessarily taken uh taken note of them well we will explore into your course what exactly you did know about reynold having european fire classification for
00:06:57 having european fire classification for certain products but let's approach it a bit more a little bit more slowly um during your time at uh conic had you heard about or of uh the european en13501
00:07:10 uh the european en13501 classification regime i was i'd i'd heard of it have you heard about class a to class e
00:07:20 being the range of classifications within that regime i would have i would have been aware of that terminology yes how would you have become aware of that
00:07:32 how would you have become aware of that sorry just through conversations of hearing other people talking about it and seeing it on certain documents did you ever have any formal training or
00:07:43 did you ever have any formal training or induction or education about that regime and those classifications within it no i don't believe so
00:07:54 now if sticking with the document on the screen diagram 40 please within approve document b if you can just go back to that you can see that the european class referred to
00:08:06 that the european class referred to there is b did you understand that in order to obtain
00:08:11 obtain a class b under the european system of testing it would have had to be tested in a facade build up of some kind no i wouldn't
00:08:25 build up of some kind no i wouldn't you understand that the cladding would have to be set up in a rivet fix or a cassette fix with a wall and an insulation did you understand that no
00:08:34 that no i wouldn't have been involved in any of that
00:08:38 uh if we look at the note uh it says note one the national classifications do not automatically equate with the
00:08:49 do not automatically equate with the equivalent european classifications did you understand that this is a general principle yes i knew that people in the uk only wanted to see the relevant uk documentation and not
00:09:02 the relevant uk documentation and not european certificates right did you have any understanding about whether class naught was equivalent to class b or not equivalent to class b no i had no no knowledge of that
00:09:16 no i had no no knowledge of that um again that's a topic we'll come back to in a bit more detail later just to flag that up with you but in the meantime let's look at some product literature shall we let's go to
00:09:34 cep3061423
00:09:39 now this is an iteration of our comics discover new perspectives brochure and we believe looking at it that it's dated 2008
00:09:51 that it's dated 2008 uh and i'll show you that in a moment before i do are you familiar with this document
00:09:56 document yes i am could you have distributed this kind of document to your customers do you think
00:10:00 you think yes i have can we go to page 16.
00:10:06 we can see at the very bottom on the left hand side up the side there's a date
00:10:14 page 16 yes and at the very bottom on the left up the side there's a date which says zero eight uh in fact it's not actually that way around it says b a r
00:10:25 around it says b a r c r b a r zero eight or g b i think o eight it's quite hard to read
00:10:31 read can you can you help us with whether that signifies the date of issue this document
00:10:38 document um i yeah i mean i can't barely see it sort of cut halfway off but um that's i think it was yes yes and trying it a different way was this the
00:10:49 trying it a different way was this the kind of document that you would have been
00:10:51 been using to distribute to your customers fairly on in your career at iconic yes if we go to page 13 back a few pages please
00:11:03 and track to the right hand side of the document you can see that there's a table
00:11:07 table a table at the top of the page is called certification and immediately underneath that is fire certification europe and underneath that under the very first on the very first line it says europe and then renault bond p e
00:11:20 europe and then renault bond p e and then there's a classification b s 2 d naught
00:11:24 d naught certification number ra05 0 0005 a
00:11:32 0 0005 a and the testing organization is cstb can you see that yes and in the next line it says europe fr the renault bond and underneath certification class b
00:11:43 certification class b s 1 d naught certification number r a 0 7 0 1 7 7 cstb now if you skip down
00:11:54 now if you skip down to the uk entries just um beyond germany beyond france and germany there you can see uk
00:11:59 see uk pe uh uh um the two classifications there
00:12:04 there under part sevens bs 476 part six and bf476 part seven class norton class one uh and then for fr the same again so there are four
00:12:16 for fr the same again so there are four entries
00:12:16 entries two for pe two for fr there you see that yes they um are certified as numbers 70707-70708
00:12:27 numbers 70707-70708 and all four are done at warrington fire research as the testing organization now i've shown you that now my question is
00:12:38 is first were you familiar with this part of the document or something like it when you were disseminating it to your customers yeah i would have seen it i wouldn't necessarily have
00:12:49 necessarily have understood the technicalities of it but i i certainly am familiar with the the setup of it does that tell us that at the time you were using this document you appreciated
00:13:01 were using this document you appreciated that arconic was making claims about the fire performance of reyno bond p e and fr in terms of the european classification regime as
00:13:12 the european classification regime as well as the uk regime i wouldn't have had any reason to have questioned it it would i would have been a document i didn't have enough knowledge about the industry as explained so i certainly wouldn't have
00:13:23 explained so i certainly wouldn't have been in a position to question anything that was being provided now what i'm really trying to get at is whether given that this was a document that you would have used with your customers at this time did you appreciate that iconic
00:13:36 time did you appreciate that iconic was making representations to its customers not only about um the national uh fire performance classifications but also about far performance of bond pe and fr
00:13:48 about far performance of bond pe and fr in european terms
00:13:52 well as say i do i wouldn't have i if that's what they were saying if that's what was in the documentation i wouldn't have had
00:13:59 have had any question any reason to to question it
00:14:03 it right did customers in the uk ever ask you about european classifications um they possibly did and and again i would have
00:14:14 would have immediately either referred them to some of the product information sheets the data sheets or sent them copies of the bba would you have referred them to this
00:14:25 would you have referred them to this list of certifications not necessarily in that brochure but the information would have been in other other documents can we take it from this document and the fact that you were using it to disseminate it among your uk customers
00:14:37 disseminate it among your uk customers that your uk customers were interested not only
00:14:40 not only in the national class certifications for fire but also the european classifications for fire um i wouldn't be i couldn't say whether they would have been or not as i said earlier i'm familiar with the
00:14:53 as i said earlier i'm familiar with the the terminology but it's not something that i would have had a conversation with any customers about i don't recall conversations with them about european certification do you remember who gave you this
00:15:04 do you remember who gave you this document to use with your europe with your uk customers um
00:15:10 um i would i mean i would assume it's come from our marketing team who specifically within your marketing team would have given these this document for you to disseminate among your uk customers i can't remember who was who would have
00:15:22 i can't remember who was who would have been doing it at the time in 2000 when it was first issued in 2008 or nine i can't remember who was was there um
00:15:32 uh i can't remember there was a lady there that was running out the marketing for for um alcoa at the time but i can't remember her name
00:15:43 justine boyel no shh no she wasn't there when i was there and did it strike you as odd that you were being given a document
00:15:54 odd that you were being given a document like this
00:15:54 like this to disseminate and use with your uk customers
00:15:58 customers uh which had not only uk national class fire certifications on it but also the european um fire classifications it never and it never occurred to me um
00:16:09 it never and it never occurred to me um it genuinely didn't occur to me as i say i wouldn't i didn't have enough technical knowledge or background of the industry even to have known whether the information that was in there was right or wrong so i wouldn't have
00:16:20 right or wrong so i wouldn't have questioned it can we go to your second statement then please page five met three zeros five three one six two page five
00:16:29 page five i'd like to just show you what you say paragraph
00:16:32 paragraph twenty you say that i do not recall ever being trained on any specific requirements for the uk neither do i recall
00:16:40 recall ever hearing about specific requirements in relation in respect to buildings higher than 18 meters this did not come up in my discussions with colin southgate and neither do i recall it being discussed during my induction
00:16:50 induction at the annual sales meetings or at any other time during my tenure uh with arconic whether internally or with the various customers with whom i dealt
00:16:59 dealt those customers were usually industry specialists and architects who i expect to know much more about building regulations and any associated requirements than me now is it right that you had at least
00:17:10 now is it right that you had at least some knowledge of what you could sell what you were allowed to sell to the uk in order to do your job
00:17:17 well my knowledge on the technical side was very limited as i say um i was i was basically taking that the product that i was being
00:17:28 taking that the product that i was being given to go and promote and market in the uk was suitable for the uk market and so i had never had any reasons to question that i didn't have the background and the technical knowledge to question
00:17:40 and the technical knowledge to question it any further would you say you we're taking their product was was um was to promote a market in the uk was suitable for the uk market was that
00:17:52 was suitable for the uk market was that so
00:17:53 so regardless of the height of the building
00:17:57 yeah again i never didn't have conversations with customers about the height of buildings or the the height it was being used in um you know i was so much further away from
00:18:08 from a lot of those conversations that would have been taking place with other people within the the the chain so do we take it from that that at no stage
00:18:20 do we take it from that that at no stage when you were selling rainer bond 55 pe into the uk market were you
00:18:25 were you aware of any uh restriction or qualification uh on the use of that product at height in other words no i was not aware that
00:18:38 in other words no i was not aware that there was
00:18:39 there was uh restrictions right
00:18:47 if you had no understanding of the requirements of the uk regulations how did you know that it was acceptable to sell
00:18:55 to sell pe cord radio 155 in the uk market regardless of height
00:19:02 well as as i just explained it you know i'm
00:19:06 i'm working for an organization like alcohol i'd just taken it that i didn't even question
00:19:11 question didn't even enter my head that it would well was or wasn't suitable as far as i was concerned it was a product that had been used
00:19:19 been used um they were a big known company and therefore was all perfectly suitable for what i need for what it needed to do in the uk
00:19:36 right now can we turn to the question of combustibility of pe can we stay in your second statement but
00:19:48 can we stay in your second statement but go to page seven please i'd like to look with you at paragraph 28.
00:19:57 and a paragraph 28 you say it's quite a long paragraph and there's a particular part that i want to ask you about but i should give you the whole thing you say the vast majority of the questions that i received related
00:20:09 questions that i received related to the aesthetics and appearance of the product typically color and finish rather than the technical performance characteristics the decision as to whether to opt for pe or fr core was made by the customer
00:20:20 or fr core was made by the customer on the basis of the specification to which they were working safer explaining to a customer that there were pe and fr variants foreign bond available i did not nor was i in a position to
00:20:31 i did not nor was i in a position to advise customers on the specific fire performance differences between pe and fr
00:20:36 and fr i did not recall ever advising a customer that they needed a pe or fr core
00:20:40 core during my time at arconic of course i appreciate that pe was plastic and was and is flammable
00:20:48 flammable that would have been obvious to anyone but the pe product was regulated and accredited by external accreditation bodies
00:20:54 bodies for example the bba i also understood that fr provided additional resistance to fire that was obvious from the name if a customer were to ask me about the detailed technical differences i would
00:21:05 detailed technical differences i would have referred the query to the technical sales support team this team was available to provide technical support and assistance to customers and to the sales representatives etc i don't think i need the rest
00:21:16 don't think i need the rest now to be very clear is it right that you understood that pe polyethylene was a combustible material
00:21:25 uh i i understood that it wasn't as fire retardant yes well did you understand that it was a combustible material
00:21:34 i would at the time again it's not something that would have been part of the process of what i was going through the thinking um so
00:21:47 um so i mean when you look back on it yes it's combustible but i wouldn't have known i didn't think of it in that way at the time
00:21:55 time you say in the middle of the statement i read it slowly that you appreciate that p
00:21:59 p was plastic and was and is flammable that would have been obvious to anyone just to be clear i'm just putting to you whether you understood at the time that pe was a combustible
00:22:11 that pe was a combustible material or if you like a flammable material
00:22:14 material yes
00:22:18 of cladding as you told us before you joined iconic did you no i didn't uh and you say it would have been obvious to anyone that pe was using your word flammable um was it
00:22:30 using your word flammable um was it obvious to you when you joined arconic and started marketing rainer bond pe uh that it was flammable or did somebody tell you that it probably wouldn't have been obvious
00:22:41 it probably wouldn't have been obvious to me at the time it would have come from
00:22:43 from from somebody else or general discussions
00:22:50 right so it would have come from somebody else or general discussions do you remember having a general discussion uh or even a specific discussion with a particular person
00:23:00 person about the combustibility characteristics of a pe core i can't recall specific discussions and conversations about it um
00:23:11 um either no i can't remember specifics in that sense so when you say it would have been obvious to anyone in your statement is that really right
00:23:23 is that really right um it
00:23:27 um it it's difficult when you know obviously very aware of it now i mean a lot of people are very aware of flammable materials now where they weren't necessarily
00:23:38 weren't necessarily back in back in back then um but as i said i specifically i don't know whether i was given that guidance or whether i
00:23:49 i was given that guidance or whether i heard about it in general discussions well really what i'm getting at is whether your statement's correct when you say that it would have been obvious to anyone uh that the the pe product was flammable was it something that you
00:24:00 was it something that you immediately observed for yourself without having to be told that because it was obvious or did you have to be told that by somebody in order to know it um well i think the nature of
00:24:11 um well i think the nature of polyethylene would have would have been that it was it was flammable or more flammable maybe that's right but what did you know yourself did you pick it did you understand from the start
00:24:22 understand from the start that rayna bond pe 55 had a flammable core
00:24:25 core or was that something that you had to be told by somebody else in order to know it
00:24:29 it i was probably told that by somebody it's not something i would have known myself
00:24:33 myself so what do you say in your statement that it would have been obvious to anyone this is why i'm asking you is that really correct um well it's as i say it's so yes i probably had somebody tell me
00:24:46 so yes i probably had somebody tell me right so when you say in your statement that would have been obvious to anyone right was it obvious to anyone or was it something that you had to be told i think if you were in the industry it
00:24:57 i think if you were in the industry it probably was very obvious to everybody but not
00:25:00 but not as i say it would have been very it would have been clearer to me that after the few months of being with the firm but not necessarily immediately straight as soon as i joined them
00:25:10 them right did you ever have any discussion with any of your customers about combustible nature of polyethylene as the core of radio 155
00:25:22 um again i was there quite a long time and the subject of fire was becoming more relevant during probably 2013-14
00:25:36 relevant during probably 2013-14 but certainly not at the very beginning no yes
00:25:40 no yes we'll come to those those years later on uh are you telling us that there came a time during your employment at arconic when
00:25:52 at arconic when the combustible nature of the polyethylene core to rename 55 was the subject of specific discussion between uh customers
00:26:03 customers yes there was more conversations of more awareness being talked about of it than in the market generally than when i first joined them can you remember which customers
00:26:14 remember which customers you discuss the combustible nature of polyethylene core with at any time i can't be specific it
00:26:25 with at any time i can't be specific it would have been one of our regular fabricators um we only worked with a small group of fabricators so it would have been potentially it would have been one or two
00:26:34 two a couple of those maybe what was the context in which you had those discussions you remember i can't remember um there was
00:26:42 was some uh some discussions about other fires that were happening later on in again i'm i'm not too sure of the date 2013-14 and there were some discussions
00:26:55 2013-14 and there were some discussions about
00:26:56 about about that but i don't i don't recall specifics
00:27:00 specifics now we asked jeff blades of cep about this subject and he told us that he never discussed the flammability of pe with you is that right
00:27:11 with you is that right again i can't answer that specifically but i don't recall having discussions with uh with them about it
00:27:18 about it just for our record that's the reference day 41 page 39 at lines eight to ten where he said he never had a discussion about the flammability of pe with you i think you've confirmed that it's right
00:27:30 i think you've confirmed that it's right isn't it that cep was a key fabricator for iconic yes they were one of our fabricators yes yes uh i i've asked you whether they were a key fabricator you say they were
00:27:42 were a key fabricator you say they were one of them one of a small number is that a small number of fabricators yes
00:27:47 yes is it right that you never you really did never talk about the combustible nature
00:27:50 nature of pe with jeff blades or anybody else at cep
00:27:57 at cep not that i don't recall having any of those discussions the the flammability of of um of acm was was just not discussed it's not something that was brought up in
00:28:09 not something that was brought up in general conversations can we look at your exhibit df5 then please
00:28:15 please go to uh pages 48 and 49. this is at
00:28:22 met3053173
00:28:25 and i'd like to start at the foot of page 48 is french pleased with an email from uh
00:28:33 from uh let's just wait for it to come up
00:28:42 met3053173
00:28:46 and if we go to the bottom of page 48 we can see that there is an email from
00:28:57 that there is an email from a person called eureka de la cruz of arab on monday the september the 12th 2011 to you re stainless steel composite panels if
00:29:08 re stainless steel composite panels if we please go to the top of page 49 we can see that
00:29:14 they ask you this debbie thanks for looking into this could you please provide me with some technical details regarding the fr core particularly how it compares to the
00:29:27 core particularly how it compares to the pe core we would like to make sure that we can specify this without problems looking forward to hearing from you soon now if we get that's the question that you were asked if we go back to page 48 and go to the
00:29:39 if we go back to page 48 and go to the top of that page
00:29:45 we can see that if you just scroll down a little bit further to the bottom towards the bottom of that page
00:29:56 towards the bottom of that page you email you send the email on to claude valley on thursday the 15th of september 2011. and you say hi claude have these two documents showing the details of fr and
00:30:08 documents showing the details of fr and pe core
00:30:09 pe core are they something i can send out to customers see email below i am unsure as they give a lot of detail could you let me know and see if and if we can't do sorry if we can't do you have any other documents that i can
00:30:20 you have any other documents that i can supply arab please and his response to you on the 23rd of september 2011
00:30:30 is oh my lord in capital letters bold three exclamation marks where do you get that from question mark question mark question mark for sure you're not
00:30:41 mark for sure you're not capital letters bold allowed to diffuse to the customer those documents the best way to answer is to speak about different style classification on the panels containing fr compared to those ones containing p e
00:30:54 fr compared to those ones containing p e and then if we scroll up a little bit higher
00:31:02 mr verde comes uh uh i say back to you he sends you another email it looks looks like on the same day
00:31:11 day 23rd of september 2011. saying fr core is done with 30 organic part and seventy percent mineral part pe is only organic as organic is the material that is going
00:31:23 as organic is the material that is going to burn in case of fire fr is better now it's clear from this do you accept that at this stage september 2011 you
00:31:35 september 2011 you knew even if only from this exchange um that there was a different fire classification for fr from that which applied
00:31:46 fr from that which applied to pe yes
00:31:49 to pe yes and you discovered presumably from this classification from this um email run from claude verlet that pe would burn yes if you had to have this explained to
00:32:03 yes if you had to have this explained to you by claude verley wouldn't it follow that your own customers would need to have it explained to them in turn yes they would have done did you ever explain to your customers
00:32:15 explain to your customers in terms that pe would burn i don't recall specifically explaining that to them was that not something that you felt it important to explain to your customers
00:32:27 important to explain to your customers um i it's not something i explained to them um if i'd been asked the question i would have i would have explained it or i would have
00:32:35 have sought the right information to go and be able to explain it to them how did you unders how did you understand what did you understand from mr
00:32:45 mr uh verla's email about how pe would burn if ignited i i can't remember i don't i can't remember the what the events of the conversation were
00:32:58 what the events of the conversation were after that a string of emails we could see the terms or tone in which mr verle responded to you which was um with capital letters and bolds and quite a lot of punctuation
00:33:10 bolds and quite a lot of punctuation can you explain why he reacted in the way he did to your question uh not specifically no this particular from what i can recall the project that this
00:33:22 the project that this we were talking about there was for a project
00:33:25 project in um somewhere else abroad it wasn't in the uk
00:33:29 the uk so the architect were in the uk but the project itself was going to be uh in another country why would you make a difference that the architect was in another country uh if pe would burn the same in that
00:33:42 uh if pe would burn the same in that other country as it would in the uk whether the regulations were slightly different as i say i i can't recall
00:33:52 genuinely can't recall why why you know i haven't had any conversation or didn't have conversations with with customers about the the combustibility of it
00:34:03 combustibility of it we saw we can get back to it if you like that uh mr very explained to you the difference in the makeup uh between fr core on the one hand and pe core on the other was that something that you ever explained to your customers
00:34:15 explained to your customers no it's not something that i was asked it's not something that um i i would have talked to them about
00:34:23 about i probably felt i certainly wouldn't have felt comfortable to in that i just say i haven't got the technical knowledge to be able to do that i would have sought further advice to be able to do it if i've been asked
00:34:34 able to do it if i've been asked that's right why would you not have told your customers that fr uh had a 70 percent mineral core whereas pe had 100 organic core and would burn why not tell them that so that they
00:34:45 why not tell them that so that they could make their decisions on an informal
00:34:47 informal basis it's not something that was ever discussed it's conversations about fire were not were just not something that happened they weren't part of the everyday discussions it didn't come from
00:34:58 didn't come from any part of the process of people that were involved in the chain
00:35:04 i'd like to ask you about the size of the uk market can we look at your stay with perhaps your second statement and go to page nine please look at paragraph 43 together 33 and i've got 33 on that page
00:35:18 33 and i've got 33 on that page you say the power 33 arconic had a very small share of the uk market i would estimate that it was probably the fourth biggest supplier of acm for facade purposes behind a leukobond
00:35:29 facade purposes behind a leukobond produced by three air composites alpolic produced by mitsubishi chemicals and aloo coil produced by larsen each of these competitors sold greater amounts of pea acm to the uk market
00:35:40 amounts of pea acm to the uk market i cannot recall the exact sales volumes or market shares but as noted above the uk was a relatively small market for our comic
00:35:47 comic it sold a great it sold greater volumes of product elsewhere for example france and the uae is it fair to say that the uk is a minor country for sales of branded bond
00:35:58 country for sales of branded bond yes it was the people in merck therefore pay less attention to uk than other markets like france or the uae
00:36:06 uae i i can't answer that that would have to be a question for for them looking at that it appears that uh our colleague had a great deal of competition in the united kingdom is that right yes we did did you keep a
00:36:19 is that right yes we did did you keep a close eye on what our comics competitors were doing i was very aware of them in the uk uh yes very aware of them would be fair to say that you kept a close eye on a leukobond manufactured by
00:36:31 close eye on a leukobond manufactured by 3a yes so the largest yes now to come back to a point raised by the chairman earlier there was a price difference between um reyna bonds pe and rainer
00:36:43 between um reyna bonds pe and rainer bomb's fr offering wasn't there yes and the extent of the price difference that you gave us earlier did was the pe corporate one
00:36:55 did was the pe corporate one competitively priced against the competition
00:36:59 um we were we were competitive but not in all cases what about fr was fr competitively priced
00:37:10 priced uh very much depended on project by project basis but my i can't really remember exactly but i think we were slightly probably more more expensive than fr on fr
00:37:21 fr that sounds from both of those answers for pe competitive but not in all cases and for fr it depends on project by project that that actually there were there wasn't a fixed price the price would depend upon the deal
00:37:34 the price would depend upon the deal that you managed to do with the fabricator is that right yeah i would seek prices from i had general guidance from merck's time in terms of the pricing that we could or couldn't offer
00:37:45 couldn't offer you say general guidance does that mean you had a range within you could price at your discretion yes so pe for example because we were selling that all the time i had a a level that i could sell to without
00:37:57 a level that i could sell to without having to
00:37:57 having to to go to merck simon other other prices i would have to seek that from or at least get some sort of agreement from merck sign could you say when you say level i mean there's a flaw below which you could not
00:38:09 there's a flaw below which you could not go without authority yeah there was nothing written down
00:38:13 down in terms of you know a minimum and a maximum and i could operate within that minimum
00:38:17 minimum maximum but there was a general market price for certain colors and anything generally outside of that i would seek advice or at least get some reassurance
00:38:28 advice or at least get some reassurance that i could do that give us some idea of the range for pe in rough terms gosh back then it would have been um
00:38:40 it would have been um 25 so it could have been anywhere between sort of 22 right up to you know 28 30 pound per square meter depending on the color the size of
00:38:51 meter depending on the color the size of the project right so almost 30 about 30
00:38:56 yeah and again it would just depend on lots of different uh situations at the time do you have any price advantage to the competition um if you sold pe core as opposed to fr
00:39:08 um if you sold pe core as opposed to fr core
00:39:09 core sorry did we have no now i want to ask you about the resources available to you and how you would go about sharing information in our comics a different topic and i'd
00:39:21 in our comics a different topic and i'd like to
00:39:21 like to start with the top with the subject of the tool box and in that to begin with claude schmidt's understanding of the way he says information was communicated within our comic
00:39:33 within our comic can we please go to his witness statement at page 15 this is met 30 is 53187 page 15.
00:39:44 on that page i'd like to go to paragraph 48
00:39:51 it's at the bottom of the page and he says in relation to awareness within our conic
00:39:55 conic of the results of fire performance testing and certification a number of people within our connect would have been aware including the sales team and the technical sales support team
00:40:06 and the technical sales support team members of the sales team would be aware of the results as they made available to them through an online system referred to as the page toolbox claude verle and the technical sales
00:40:17 claude verle and the technical sales support team would upload to the toolbox a new or updated classification report or certification and would notify the sales team via email of any such changes such emails were sent to mail
00:40:28 such emails were sent to mail distribution lists raf leased commercial intern which includes all members of the sales and marketing departments that are based in murkheim
00:40:36 murkheim including those working in internal sales outside sales and technical support
00:40:41 support and raf least commercial extel which includes all members of the sales and marketing department that are based outside of maxheim and either employed by our archonic are its agents including for example
00:40:54 are its agents including for example deborah french and vince mekins now i'll pause there um just looking at the toolbox question am i right to understand that this was an online database if you like of technical
00:41:06 database if you like of technical documents
00:41:09 uh yes i believe so who's in charge of keeping it up to date do you know um i'm i'm not sure um i don't know
00:41:20 um i'm i'm not sure um i don't know who was in charge of emailing uh the recipients in those lists when there was a change or update to the toolbox you know i don't know i'm afraid
00:41:31 don't know i'm afraid you have easy access to the toolbox yourself
00:41:35 yourself um i'm trying to recollect the details of the exact details and how we used
00:41:41 we used uh the toolbox
00:41:46 i can't recall
00:41:54 was it something that you would have to access
00:41:57 access yourself from your computer if you wanted to look at it you would access it by clicking on a link or you regularly sent a link to look at you remember i honestly can't remember
00:42:08 you remember i honestly can't remember the the details of the toolbox at all um i'm really struggling to record details in the toolbox forgive me for the next question did you
00:42:19 forgive me for the next question did you do you remember getting any prompts email telephone prompts to look at the toolbox
00:42:26 toolbox from anybody in iconic uh i don't recall being on any prompts for to look at specifically at a toolbox i i remember being sent emails receiving
00:42:38 i i remember being sent emails receiving emails from the email um list that you just mentioned in that statement um so which i would have been included on but i don't remember uh i don't recall or remember uh toolbox
00:42:51 uh i don't recall or remember uh toolbox did anybody ever give you any training or other kinds of education about the toolbox and how to use it i honestly can't recall the toolbox at all i'm sorry i'm i'm not
00:43:03 all i'm sorry i'm i'm not really not being difficult here i don't recall it
00:43:09 did you keep your own copies of technical documents in either hard copy or on your on your computer
00:43:15 computer that you would then send to customers when needed oh yes i did have hard copies of documents that i would have kept on my own laptop on my own i say my work
00:43:27 own laptop on my own i say my work laptop yes do you remember an occasion when those documents were amended or updated no no i wouldn't have no because they weren't connected to
00:43:39 weren't connected to they weren't automatically connected to a system at merck's time they were just sat on my
00:43:43 sat on my on my hard drive on my laptop do you remember an occasion on which you were informed
00:43:48 informed that the documents that you had had been revised or updated i remember have receiving emails specifically giving updates on certain
00:43:59 specifically giving updates on certain documents
00:44:00 documents but i don't remember i really don't remember a toolbox function i had crm system that we worked on but i don't remember at all box okay so can we take it from that that
00:44:12 okay so can we take it from that that you were entirely reliant um reactive uh to being told that there were changes to technical documents
00:44:23 as as opposed to being encouraged to find them in the toolbox yes i do recall getting emails of that nature
00:44:34 and i see and and who would you speak to or who would you be contacted by in the event that there was a revision or an update to one of those documents that would
00:44:47 to one of those documents that would have come from the technical team technical team itself or or inside sales um it could have been both it could have been both depending on what it was i
00:44:59 been both depending on what it was i remember getting documents from both inside
00:45:01 inside sales generally inside sales passed information on but and then i would have had stuff come from the
00:45:08 from the technical team as well
00:45:12 right was there anything to stop you sending out material to your customers that was out of date or inapplicable to that customer no there wouldn't there was nothing no
00:45:23 no there wouldn't there was nothing no there was no no stop anywhere for me not to send that out did it ever occur to you why it was that you were sending out to your customers documents that may have been many years
00:45:35 that may have been many years out of date or of many years of antiquity
00:45:40 antiquity origin no again i i would have taken them that they were still valid if i hadn't been sent information to um you know to update it i would have
00:45:52 you know to update it i would have continued to send it out do you remember any occasion which on which you yourself access the toolbox to get a document
00:46:03 access the toolbox to get a document i can't recall i'm not saying that i didn't but i can't recall the toolbox but i'm i'm not saying that i didn't have access to it i really can't recall it i'd like to show you what mr vale says
00:46:14 i'd like to show you what mr vale says about this can we go please to uh robin i'd like to show you a document which he exhibits um which is uh part six of his exhibits at met3053158
00:46:27 at met3053158 please at pay i'm sorry underscore p06 i'll read that again met 30 53158 underscore p06
00:46:40 underscore p06 at page 156
00:46:51 and this is a presentation given by mr velay's team as we understand it now we can see uh from this page that this is a document relating to a sales meeting in
00:47:02 document relating to a sales meeting in june 2013. nre toolbox a way to improve your reactivity
00:47:12 first of all do you remember being at such a sales meeting
00:47:18 again i have no recollection of that one specifically but i did attend all of them
00:47:22 them there wasn't any that i didn't attend so can we take it that even though you don't recall this one specifically you attended this one yes yeah uh and if we go on in the presentation you can see that it's all about the toolbox
00:47:33 about the toolbox uh we can see that there's a slide at page 160 for four pages on
00:47:42 which has the heading challenges the next steps action plan challenges the next steps update all obsolete documents old logo new versions action plan end of year update day after
00:47:54 action plan end of year update day after day this tool with new certifications test results on standard answers integrate environmental standards led epd
00:48:03 first did you understand that there were indeed or may have been indeed obsolete documents in the toolbox
00:48:12 no i wouldn't have necessarily been aware of that if you were at this meeting as you say you were although you can't specifically record it you would have understood that the toolbox did contain
00:48:25 that the toolbox did contain all of what contained obsolete documents uh which needed to be updated by the end of 2013. yes yeah yes uh when you learned that there were or
00:48:37 uh when you learned that there were or may have been obsolete documents which needed to be updated in the toolbox um what did you do
00:48:43 i don't i honestly don't recall what what i did this prompt you to look in the toolbox and see what it was that might be updated to make sure that
00:48:53 that whatever documents you were disseminating to your customers would now be updated or had not been obviously not grown obsolete again i can't i can't i don't recall whether i did or didn't
00:49:06 whether i did or didn't do you remember whether there was a plan to update the toolbox and then keep it updated
00:49:10 updated after this time no i don't i don't recall
00:49:15 recall i'm i know i'm being very vague and but i really don't recall much about the the toolbox at all
00:49:23 right so you were at this sales meeting and you can't recall it but i'm just trying to understand what you're thinking was at the time you're told as we can see here that one
00:49:36 you're told as we can see here that one of the challenges and next steps were to take the toolbox which is of course the subject of this entire slide and updated was this not an occasion on which you would ask yourself i will i wonder whether any of the documents that i've been sending to
00:49:48 documents that i've been sending to customers
00:49:48 customers are obsolete and now i need updating did you not ask yourself that question possibly not no i would have just waited for for
00:49:56 for for that to have happened from the from the technical team and they would have they would have um either advised me or sent me what needed to be replaced but it wasn't the purpose of the toolbox
00:50:08 the purpose of the toolbox uh a a a two-way street which required you
00:50:11 you or at least invited you to look inside from time to time to make sure that whatever was in there um corresponded with what you were sending to customers yes
00:50:24 i i don't i i can't answer that question so
00:50:28 so i can't recall very i recall very little about the toolbox so i i can't remember whether i went into it whether i didn't go into it whether i updated from it or whether i didn't i genuinely
00:50:40 didn't i genuinely cannot recall much about the toolbox
00:50:44 now we've just seen george schmidt's evidence in paragraph 48 of his statement that i read to you about the raf least commercial extern uh
00:50:56 raf least commercial extern uh i don't need to go back to that unless you want me to i'm happy to do that but he says that that email group would have included you you remember we saw that yes is that right first of all yes so is it right that you would you would
00:51:08 so is it right that you would you would receive email communications through the raf leased commercial extent yes do you understand uh that or did you understand at the
00:51:20 uh that or did you understand at the time that everybody external to merck's fine would receive emails via that group uh yes that might include sales representatives in the uae or german spain yes
00:51:33 or german spain yes yes yes um do you know who it was you made the decision to send which emails to the raf leased commercial extern group
00:51:44 leased commercial extern group no i don't who would typically send emails into that group do you remember typically
00:51:50 typically um it would have been the technical team or
00:51:55 or people higher up in the management team and do you know what criteria that you're doing but can you tell us perhaps what criteria they would apply to decide whether that email or that message should be sent to
00:52:07 email or that message should be sent to the raf
00:52:08 the raf at least commercialized down no i wouldn't have had any access to that right now mr uh schmidt also says there was a list and i
00:52:20 schmidt also says there was a list and i think you've confirmed this yourself called raf police commercial antel were you aware of that list um i probably saw it on emails but i i wouldn't have
00:52:31 wouldn't have been able to get in to see who was in it that was people in merck sign was it like gwen is a and peter freddie right okay yeah do you exactly know i'm
00:52:42 right okay yeah do you exactly know i'm asking you yes yes i want to ask you then about sales meetings at berkshire and building on that can i ask you to go to your second statement please at page two
00:52:53 um i'd like to look at paragraph nine with you please miss french you say that i would typically visit the bottom of the page i would typically visit our connex merckxime site once a
00:53:04 visit our connex merckxime site once a year
00:53:04 year in order to attend the annual sales meeting and at other times on an ad hoc basis to show customers around the site or to work with the inside sales team on particular issues the inside sales team would provide
00:53:16 the inside sales team would provide administrative support for my activities including the supply of samples processing orders and arranging and monitoring the shipment of product grenade el dorado was my primary contact of the inside sales team at the time
00:53:28 of the inside sales team at the time at the time i became involved in the grenfell tower project gwenelle's duties would be covered when she was away from the office by marine claude jordan then you say paragraph 10 the annual sales meetings
00:53:39 paragraph 10 the annual sales meetings at berkshire gave me an opportunity to meet with
00:53:41 meet with our colleague sales representatives from around europe and to receive a general update on developments in the market and about onconics products these meetings would typically include a technical update on the products given by claude verle
00:53:53 products given by claude verle who managed the technical sales support team at arconic covering possible new developments for example toward the end of my time at arconic it was developing a rhino bond a2 product and other matters including in respect
00:54:04 and other matters including in respect of certification this is dealt with in more detail below from paragraph 19. now before we explore that in a little bit of detail and you can take it from me that cloverle's evidence
00:54:15 cloverle's evidence is that these meetings would usually occur twice a year and that's his statement of paragraph 125 page 36 do you agree with that um
00:54:26 do you agree with that um or do you not know
00:54:30 well certainly remember them being once a year um
00:54:33 a year um we we probably sometimes have them twice a year but i definitely remember them being once a year
00:54:41 i mean he says they were twice a year usually twice a year might you be mistaken
00:54:44 mistaken that they were annual only that they occurred twice a year yes possibly i'm mistaken and i only recall them being annually but yes possibly or is it the case
00:54:56 but yes possibly or is it the case perhaps that you didn't attend all of them i don't recall missing any um i there's no reason why i would have missed any um i don't recall them being twice a year
00:55:08 i don't recall them being twice a year every year that i was there but definitely remember being there every single year now turning to the question of the presentations at these sales meetings would you agree that these presentation
00:55:20 would you agree that these presentation when the presentations were on the subject of developments in the work of the technical sales support team yes they were likely to be of general relevance
00:55:31 relevance they were they were general so each ex each regional sales manager for each country would do a short presentation an update on their market we would hear from some of the
00:55:43 we would hear from some of the development teams within merck sign when we would hear from some of the internal people occasionally and then we would also hear from the technical sales technical team
00:55:55 technical sales technical team yes and when mr uh when does to
00:56:01 when you say uh that the um meetings would typically include a technical update on the products given by claude verlay that that's right they were they were were they
00:56:12 were they yeah he would give a general overview of all sorts of different things that were going on at the time right and he also said that he would give you um information or presentation in respect
00:56:23 information or presentation in respect of certification as well yes yes now um in your in your second statement of page five paragraph 19
00:56:34 five paragraph 19 um you you come back to this point you elaborate on this point a little bit more
00:56:41 more and paragraph 19 you say
00:56:46 um that uh you would attend annual sales meetings at berkshire which would include a technical update presented by claude verlet uh and we've already seen that you say
00:56:58 uh and we've already seen that you say at the end of that paragraph as i think we've already seen i did not think the european testing regime was relevant to the uk and so these updates were not a focus of mine
00:57:07 mine now we've i've shown you some of the iconic sales literature which made claims about european classifications and we've and i've also shown you approved document b which i know you didn't see at the time
00:57:18 didn't see at the time which referred also to the european fire classifications can i ask you why did you think that as you say here paragraph 19 why did you think that the european testing ritchie
00:57:31 testing ritchie was not relevant to the uk
00:57:35 that was my knowledge at the time that it wasn't as relevant that people in the uk wanted
00:57:40 uk wanted the uk certifications and not the not the european ones did anybody ever specifically tell you that the european classification system
00:57:52 that the european classification system or test results but not relevant to uk customers
00:57:56 customers i don't recall no
00:58:02 can we take it from paragraph 19 and maybe this is an unfair reading but please help me is it right that you you you would ignore anything that you were told
00:58:12 were told about european fire classification test results or the regime itself in relation to reinhard 155 because you didn't think that it applied to your customer base
00:58:24 customer base a lot of those discussions were very focused on uh other countries and the effects that those testing certificates were having on other countries other countries didn't have
00:58:36 countries other countries didn't have their own certifications but we had certain certifications for the uk so my focus was on any amendments or updates that went on those documents and not the european
00:58:47 on those documents and not the european ones
00:58:48 ones into in terms of the any changes to the bba for example so in these meetings when european fire classification
00:58:59 classification results test results and the regime was discussed did you did you listen or did you switch off no i didn't switch off but i was listening but i wouldn't have necessarily thought about the whether there was any
00:59:12 thought about the whether there was any implications or whether i needed to go and
00:59:14 and seek further assistance over changes to any european certifications i would have done if it had been um to do with the the bba for example
00:59:25 um to do with the the bba for example now going back to these annual or perhaps twice twice the early sales meetings
00:59:29 meetings you say to the extent fire testing was covered do you remember whether fire testing
00:59:34 testing was actually covered as a specific topic during those sales meetings um i'm pretty certain they were in some context yes what was that context i can't recall the
00:59:46 what was that context i can't recall the the context of it though but i'd be very surprised if they weren't were you ever shown any documents or reports or presentations about fire testing or classification for the products you were selling at any
00:59:57 for the products you were selling at any of those meetings i don't specifically recall that but again i
01:00:02 again i i would be surprised if they weren't but i don't specifically recall
01:00:11 continuing with mr verle's evidence and going back to his statement plea page 35 this is met3053190 page 35.
01:00:22 plea page 35 this is met3053190 page 35. can i just ask you look at paragraph 119 to confirm one thing please uh he says there uh in para 119 the
01:00:33 uh he says there uh in para 119 the beginning of that paragraph the technical sales support team also provided information to customers and third parties when queries were raised with the team directly or via the iconic sales teams and we
01:00:44 or via the iconic sales teams and we also met on occasion with competitors to discuss matters including fire performance is that correct is what he says that correct
01:00:53 correct um best of your knowledge yes so is it right that a sales person would be able to refer a customer's technical query to the say a technical sales support team
01:01:04 support team we could direct them into the sales the tech
01:01:07 tech sales technical team directly yes when the answer came back did the answer come back through you to the customer or would the technical sales support team generally talk to the customer director
01:01:18 customer director and cut you out um it depends on the nature of it sometimes that did happen sometimes customers did have
01:01:26 have direct uh telephone calls with uh with the
01:01:30 the sales technical team and i wouldn't always be
01:01:33 always be copied in but not not very often i'm going to turn to a different topic uh
01:01:43 uh which is marketing strategy in the early years
01:01:46 years um in your very early time at darconic now i'm going to show you a document um that is before your time which you may very well not have seen but let's see how we go with it it's uh
01:01:57 but let's see how we go with it it's uh it's in claude velas exhibit part 13.
01:02:02 met3053158 underscore p13 at page 162
01:02:12 and it's a visit report uk meeting in luton dated the 21st of march 2006.
01:02:23 and you can see that it's written by didier scheideker the date of the visit is as i say the 21st of march 2006 and a number of people were present including mr further as the penultimate
01:02:35 including mr further as the penultimate set of initials under copies you can see there
01:02:38 there i'm just looking at that document on the screen is it is it a document that you would have seen uh at the time in the early days of your employment by cornea for um alcoa our comic
01:02:50 by cornea for um alcoa our comic i don't recall seeing that no
01:02:57 at the time i think it's right isn't it that guy shy decker was the director of sales and marketing
01:03:04 uh yeah he was the sales manager i believe his title his uh gee scheideker was the sales director at that time right we can also see that
01:03:17 right we can also see that if we go back to the document that uh colin southgate was present at that meeting he's uh i think cso um if we go to page 164 please in this
01:03:28 um if we go to page 164 please in this document we find item number five technical tools and underneath that um it says uh it represents also a very important
01:03:39 it represents also a very important point on our differentiation policy the competition is always higher customers are squeezing prices and therefore these technical tools can help us
01:03:47 us to have advantages and arguments and then if you look at the third bullet point down bba approval it says this we have always more and more products coming in the public housing and private development segment we have here a
01:03:58 development segment we have here a product of several ten thousand square meters in discussion it could represent in 2006 50 percent of the market means 70 to 80 000 square meters exclamation mark
01:04:09 exclamation mark in the segment we always have to show the official certification from the bbf action and then there are two bullet points can we organize to have a bba certification based on our cassette
01:04:20 certification based on our cassette approval by the cstb how quick which costs which condition that kh-35 is a key system on the market a real trend what are the and you need to go to the
01:04:31 what are the and you need to go to the page conditions to have it bba approved now my question there is first of all when you started at our comic were you made aware of any strategy on our connex part
01:04:44 strategy on our connex part uh to target public housing in the uk no i wasn't were you told that to start to target your market whatever it was iconic would need a bba certificate
01:04:59 um i don't i don't recall i can't answer that with with certainty because i don't recall those sort of questions
01:05:08 questions those sort of topics i'm trying to remember if the bva was already in existence when i started but again i i cannot recall
01:05:20 the expression k phrase kh 35 can you explain what that was that was a some typical details of a system
01:05:32 some typical details of a system uh that was part of the um i can't remember it was because i think it was a cassette system one of the cassette systems that alcoa had designed at the time um that would be used in other markets
01:05:45 um that would be used in other markets but not necessarily in the uk but they would generally uk fabricators would be
01:05:51 would be making their something their own systems of similar nature yes thank you can we go to cep3061429 then please this is a piece of our comic
01:06:03 then please this is a piece of our comic literature on the kh-35 system and
01:06:10 you can see that um it is for rhinobot so system kh35 is a renault bond system yes yes and
01:06:23 system yes yes and it's described just under system kx35 there
01:06:26 there on the page as a cassette system horizontal layout yes yes and there are two other languages as well french and lemon uh
01:06:37 french and lemon uh there's a diagram there which you can see which shows a cassette panel and which indicates how it affixes to the substructure you can see that there at the bottom under the diagram
01:06:48 under the diagram you see that there's a caption version 2008
01:06:52 2008 right at the very bottom you see yes yes and can we take it from that that this document was a dated created in 2008
01:07:03 yeah i i can only take it that it was and if we look and i'll show you a little bit more of the document if we look at page two
01:07:13 you can see an image of a cassette with a breakaway bubble with some details in it and in fact blowing up a bit further you can see um
01:07:24 blowing up a bit further you can see um that
01:07:24 that uh the rayna bond architecture is specifically identified as the rain screen there that's um rb 55 in cassette isn't it
01:07:36 that's um rb 55 in cassette isn't it yes yes now having shown you that um number of questions about it first did you provide this document uh to your customers do you think
01:07:48 you think there was a fabrication document which had
01:07:52 had that system and various other systems in it and yes i would have passed that on to fabricators right i'm asking you about this document did you provide this document as a standalone or part of
01:08:04 as a standalone or part of a suite of product literature which you gave to your customers yes i would have sent that i can't see the exact document that the whole document whether it's just one page whether it's just that kh-35
01:08:16 whether it's just that kh-35 i certainly provided details of kh-35 and would you tell customers that the k-k-h-35 system was an option for them to have
01:08:27 was an option for them to have in other words rayna bond could be fixed as a cassette system yes most customers didn't buy the car any of the renault systems because they had their own tested systems that they
01:08:39 tested systems that they that they manufactured themselves so they had no need for the rena bond design systems i see so this is a rayna bond
01:08:47 bond you say system what was comprised in the system kh35 so we we we could also provide the merck sign could also provide the the
01:09:00 merck sign could also provide the the framing behind the renabon panel as well but again that wasn't something we ever sold in the uk customers had their own tested and designed systems each
01:09:11 tested and designed systems each fabricator would have their own that they used they didn't didn't need kh-35
01:09:16 kh-35 i thought so i think what you're telling us is that kh-35 was was not just the cassette
01:09:21 cassette fix not just the panel fabricated into a cassette but included a system fixing as well
01:09:28 well it included the simple framing structure that went behind it what about the substrate and i don't believe so no it was just the the simple framing that the
01:09:40 the the simple framing that the rena bond uh went on to to start with now did this presentation document that we're looking at here ever change in the years after 2008
01:09:51 years after 2008 i don't recall that it did um there's no indication in this document that we've been able to see that the reyna bond shown here was pe or fr
01:10:00 fr was this brochure to be used with either product pe or fr i believe so yes and when you did well did you ever successfully sell
01:10:11 well did you ever successfully sell uh this product okay in uh in connection with the kh-35 system in the uk
01:10:22 um i don't recall ever selling any as i say customers had their own uh but i so i don't recall selling any um no
01:10:33 um no even if you didn't sell any when you used this document as part of your sales pitch if you like sales process were you ever asked any questions by customers about the far performance of k
01:10:46 customers about the far performance of k of the panels performing part of the kh 35 cassette system not that i recall no
01:10:54 mr chairman i'm going to turn to a different topic um probably five minutes ahead of the break i'm happy to start the topic and break it through
01:11:05 and break it through maybe it could be a moment now i don't mind well it might suit you better to uh take a break before you start a topic mightn't it yes right well then we'll take a break
01:11:16 yes right well then we'll take a break there a little on the early sides is french but probably not unwelcome anyway so we'll stop now we'll resume at um uh half past three please
01:11:27 at um uh half past three please and in the meantime please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it okay all right
01:11:33 all right and we'll see you again in the past three okay thank you thank you very much
01:30:02 hello everybody we're now ready to continue so i'm going to check that miss french can hear me and see me yes i can thank you sir thank you very much mrs french and i hope you're ready to carry on yes
01:30:14 and i hope you're ready to carry on yes thank you good thank you very much yes mr millet
01:30:17 mr millet mr chairman thank you very much ms french welcome back um i'd like to ask you some questions now about the bba certificate from 2008 and start with what you understood about the role of the bba
01:30:28 understood about the role of the bba certificate you told us a little bit about that already um we've already seen i think that some of your
01:30:34 of your evidence and your answers um are along the lines that your customers uh would ask for it and indeed that was the only thing most customers did ask for
01:30:45 for is that is that fair is that right that's a general general fair sum up yes and we've seen the 2006 luton meeting note
01:30:56 the 2006 luton meeting note that you weren't asked that there was discussion within our comic not involving you that the bba certificate was essential to marketing in the uk when you arrived at our county did you
01:31:07 when you arrived at our county did you understand that the bba certificate was essential to marketing reino bond 55 in the uk um i didn't understand it in the way that
01:31:18 i didn't understand it in the way that you've put that question but i understood that the bba was an important document but not necessarily in
01:31:24 in in the way that you you posed your question well what was wrong with rather than asking you what was wrong with the question let me try it again when you arrived at iconic and started working at arconic
01:31:36 iconic and started working at arconic uh you you understood that the bba document was an important document uh how important was that document to your sales efforts i understood that it was
01:31:48 sales efforts i understood that it was the main document that people would look for
01:31:51 for when buying the product right do i understand it that you didn't know what the british board of agreement did or what a bba certificate was before somebody at arconic told you
01:32:05 before somebody at arconic told you no i had never had any reason to deal with them or knew anything about it who was it
01:32:12 was it at our colleague who uh instructed you or educated you about the importance of the bba certificate uh i can't remember the exact details about it but um
01:32:26 exact details about it but um and i can own i i can't remember the exact details of how it came up in conversation or whether it was part of my
01:32:33 my initial training and i i can't recall
01:32:37 did anybody explain to you what the british board of agreement did
01:32:42 it would have been again i can't remember those exact those exact uh conversations but it would have been explained that we had one but i don't know whether i had
01:32:53 had one but i don't know whether i had that exact explanation i can't remember who would you have had a discussion about the bba certificate with when you first started in our comic i'm i'm thinking it was probably while i
01:33:06 i'm i'm thinking it was probably while i was having my initial training with the sales technical team which would have been clawed at the time i see and did claude verley or if it wasn't him somebody else
01:33:17 wasn't him somebody else tell you that the bba certificate was so that you've put it the most important document for your sales efforts in the uk i can't recall whether they we had that
01:33:29 i can't recall whether they we had that exact conversation along those exact lines
01:33:34 lines but i knew over a period of time that it wasn't important an important tool did you understand that the bba certificate would be telling customers those who
01:33:46 would be telling customers those who read it
01:33:49 very important information about technical matters um yeah i got to know that that's what the certificate was was there for but i can't recall whether
01:34:01 was there for but i can't recall whether i was specifically told that at the time when i joined so did you understand it not only to be a marketing tool something that would open the door to customers but but also an
01:34:14 customers but but also an important document because it contained technical
01:34:17 technical data for those customers uh yes now when you join do you remember that there was a project going on with the bba
01:34:28 a project going on with the bba to obtain a certificate for radio bond 55 panels no i don't remember when we look at claude vella's exhibits part 16 please at met
01:34:40 part 16 please at met 3053158
01:34:42 3053158 underscore p16 page 165.
01:34:52 now this is an email chain from december 2007
01:34:57 2007 through to january 2008 can we please uh go to the second email from the top on that page it's an email from claude verily to you and colin southgate dated the 2nd of january 2008 and he
01:35:10 dated the 2nd of january 2008 and he says
01:35:10 says in the second line can i ask you to read the attached document and to send me any comments
01:35:16 comments asap and there is an attachment and take it
01:35:20 it take it from from me that claude valley attached a draft of the bba certificate certification zero eight four five one zero and if we look at the
01:35:31 four five one zero and if we look at the top of the page you reply to him uh on the second of january 2008
01:35:40 uh and and to colin southgate good morning claude you say happy new year to you i've had a look through the draft and it all looks okay to me but colin may have other comments take care debs and there's your name at
01:35:51 take care debs and there's your name at the bottom debra french when you received the request from claude velli to look at the draft bba certificate what do you think what did you think were his reasons for
01:36:02 what did you think were his reasons for asking you in particular for your comments it was possibly more to do with the english the way that the english had been written rather than comments i was often asked to look at
01:36:14 comments i was often asked to look at the way documents have been worded when they were translating from different languages and it was coming back into english so i think it was probably that and certainly not the technical
01:36:25 not the technical side of it did you think that what you were being shown was a translation no no no no i'm just saying that he wanted to probably look at whether the the set out of the english was as we
01:36:38 the set out of the english was as we would want it in that document and that it was because he wouldn't have been able to see whether it was worded or reading right uh in the way that we would probably have wanted in the uk so he
01:36:49 probably have wanted in the uk so he would i often got asked to look at documents of that nature marketing documents and so forth so can i take it from that answer that what he wanted from you wasn't
01:37:01 what he wanted from you wasn't any commentary on the accuracy necessarily of the technical data in it but really the language used in it so to make it
01:37:09 make it make that language clear to customers who would read it yes it wouldn't have been technical because i wouldn't have been able to give it
01:37:16 give it and is that is the reason he was asking you is you've suggested it because you as the sale person and perhaps mr southgate
01:37:22 southgate as well would be the people issuing this document to customers and therefore expected to be able to answer questions about it in the first instance yes when you uh
01:37:34 yes when you uh well had you ever seen a bba certificate before this moment no i hadn't did you realize at the time that this was the first bba certificate that arconic had obtained or was in the
01:37:47 that arconic had obtained or was in the process of obtaining for rainbow 155 i i don't honestly recall
01:37:52 recall um i don't i can't answer that with with any certainty whether it was whether i knew that it was the first one or whether it was an update on i can't answer that uh
01:38:06 update on i can't answer that uh when you said as we've conceived from the email it all looks okay to me what did you mean by that what looked okay
01:38:15 okay i i can't remember with i i honestly don't know other than i can i'm just saying that it would possibly be that the the wording and the the way that the
01:38:26 the wording and the the way that the english was reading was how it would normally be read in in the uk
01:38:31 the uk and that's what he was asking me to look at i wouldn't have been able to comment on any of the technical detail behind it at all
01:38:37 at all would you say the way the english was reading was how it would normally be read in the uk if this was the first time you'd ever seen a bba certificate what experience did you have about the way a bba certificate would normally be
01:38:48 way a bba certificate would normally be read
01:38:49 read that would that would qualify you to answer his question well none then right so when you say normally be red what do you mean just the way that some of the words are
01:39:00 just the way that some of the words are put together and the the way that a sentence would generally read um i'm again i can't recall it i've got no recollection of it
01:39:12 recollection of it and i'm i'm i'm just saying that's possibly what i was asking what i was doing
01:39:17 doing when you say normally read and i'm sorry to sound
01:39:20 to sound pedantic about this but do you mean normally read to an ordinary english reader
01:39:24 reader a lay reader or normally read to a sales representative or normally read to somebody with technical knowledge about the technical matters contained in the certificate well i couldn't
01:39:35 the certificate well i couldn't i couldn't say whether it was going to be written in a whether it was reading in a technical way because i wasn't technically um astute enough to to know whether that
01:39:46 um astute enough to to know whether that was right
01:39:47 was right um i i can only say that it was it was just to check that there was no spelling mistakes or that generally in terms of the language that was in there that it was okay
01:39:59 there that it was okay do i take it from all of these answers that you didn't check the contents of the draft against any document i i can't i can't recall whether i would have done or not for
01:40:11 whether i would have done or not for example did you check the document uh against approved document b no i wouldn't have done that did you check the document against any test data no i wouldn't have done that
01:40:26 did mr verley give you any documents against which to check the bba certificate i don't recall because i don't remember receiving it did you did you read the technical
01:40:37 technical claims made in the document for rayner 155
01:40:42 155 i don't recall because i don't recall i can't recall that that far back and those that specifically receiving that email in that document let's look at your second statement
01:40:53 let's look at your second statement please page four second statement page four paragraph 17 please
01:40:59 please if you say there at some point
01:41:10 in the second line you say at some point during my employment clerk explained that customers in the uk might be interested in receiving a copy of the certificate issued by the british board of academic bba
01:41:22 board of academic bba relating to the reign of one product i did not remember when this was as far as i can recall this was the first time that i'd ever heard of the bba all the certificates that it issues in the event the bba
01:41:33 that it issues in the event the bba certificate was the only document that most of our comics customers in the uk ever specifically asked for and then a paragraph 18 at the bottom of that page you say i do not recall reading the certificate in any detail at the time
01:41:45 in any detail at the time and don't recall ever discussing fast certification in the context of the bba certificate
01:41:54 first of all paragraph 17 when you say at some point during my employment was that at the point when he sent you the draft bba certificate
01:42:05 the draft bba certificate uh in late december early january 2007 2008 for your comment i honestly i can't remember i don't know i mean it was literally a few months
01:42:17 i mean it was literally a few months after i'd started right when you wrote this statement did you not recall the fact that he had asked you specifically to comment on the
01:42:28 asked you specifically to comment on the bba certificate at that time no that's the first time i've seen that email no
01:42:33 email no just just today is that right uh now uh when you say in paragraph 18 that you don't recall reading the certificate in any detail
01:42:45 detail um can you explain why you told claude verla that you read through the draft and told him that it looked okay
01:42:54 i i don't recall and i know i can't answer that because it looks as if you did read it through in detail
01:43:03 i i can't remember reading it and i can't answer the question well can we proceed on the basis for from the response that you gave him at the time
01:43:12 the time uh that you had read it through and it looked okay that you did read the bba certificate through in detail even if you didn't check or double check the technical claims made it i with my limit
01:43:24 claims made it i with my limit with only having just seen a be what a bb-8 was i wouldn't have been able to have understood a lot of the information that was in there um i don't know why i've put that onto an email or my comments are on there
01:43:37 an email or my comments are on there and i certainly don't recall looking at it and can't answer the question any further than that well just help me with this if you would miss french looking at that email that we've just seen
01:43:50 we've just seen even though you can't actually remember the process of receiving it and looking at it do you think it's likely that you did in fact receive it read it at some level or other and send
01:44:02 read it at some level or other and send the comment back yes i've obviously received it and i would have looked at it um and then sent a comment back yeah whether i've looked at and
01:44:13 yeah whether i've looked at and understood all the technicalities in there
01:44:15 there probably not right well that's helpful thank you very much yes mr millet thank you mr chairman just to be clear when you were um writing your statement are you sure as you can be that you weren't showing
01:44:26 as you can be that you weren't showing the email that i've just shown you now uh i'm pretty certain i haven't seen it i don't again i don't i don't recall seeing it i mean would you accept this it would be difficult for you to say what you've
01:44:37 difficult for you to say what you've said in your statement here and sworn to you today uh unless you had been shown that email or if you had been shown that email i should say yes but i i don't i don't recall seeing it
01:44:50 but i i don't i don't recall seeing it okay let's look at the certificate uh oh we will let me just ask you about the understanding of it um is it right that given that this was an important new document
01:45:03 new document intended by our comic to be used as part of the sales process for reynabon 55 in the uk by you you would have wanted to understand the certificate some level of detail
01:45:16 certificate some level of detail yes that would be logical wouldn't it because every if every time you were asked a question by a customer about the contents of the certificate you would need to give some kind of answer otherwise you'd
01:45:27 give some kind of answer otherwise you'd be back and forth to call verde wouldn't you
01:45:30 you yes uh
01:45:35 did claude verley ever organize any kind of training session for you about what this document does and says
01:45:46 um
01:45:49 i don't recall specifically about the the bba
01:45:53 the bba in in terms of just a meeting regarding that no
01:45:57 that no was this document ever discussed at any of the sales meetings that you went to at work time
01:46:03 um it would have been brought up in in some form or another but again i really can't remember whether they were brought up in in specific country meetings i don't
01:46:15 in specific country meetings i don't yearly meetings i don't know even though you can't remember the details which i understand can you remember that the context in which discussion of the bba surfaced at these sales meetings
01:46:27 bba surfaced at these sales meetings uh no the i the conversations i do recall
01:46:32 recall were around the renewal or the not the renewal the auditing of of a bba that was done like an auditing every
01:46:41 every 12 months or two years of a bba document that's as much knowledge as i i have of it
01:46:50 that's so the subject of the auditing uh is one thing that that wasn't relevant though was it to how you would use the document in making a sale no um but that's the only that's the
01:47:03 no um but that's the only that's the only time i would recall it was if it was going to be discussed in a meeting that's the only time i would recall it being discussed in a meeting where all the other countries were involved if there was an amendment to it or there was some other reason why they
01:47:16 or there was some other reason why they needed to specifically raise it do you remember whether there was discussion about an amendment to the bbs no i don't recall any only the general audits that were going on with it
01:47:29 what was the gist of the discussions can you help me about the bba certificate in the context of the general audits i didn't get involved in those audits so i really weren't involved in it i didn't
01:47:40 i really weren't involved in it i didn't all i knew was that i'd get an email sometimes to say that the vba were going to be carrying out an audit on the on the on the certificate um and then i would be sent to
01:47:52 um and then i would be sent to afterwards it would then be i would then be told it it was okay and i'd be sent another copy of it what was the purpose of you being told about the audience do you know just for my knowledge i suppose but i
01:48:04 just for my knowledge i suppose but i didn't i didn't engage with the bba on any of that and i was i was just notified that there was going to be a
01:48:10 a an audit taking place right okay can we look at your second witness statement please at page 12. i'd like to go to paragraph 43
01:48:25 and you say here at paragraph 43 if you can just have that enlarged you say my knowledge of the requirements of my knowledge of the requirements for the purposes of far performance was
01:48:37 the purposes of far performance was extremely limited in the uk i understood that customers often requested the products bva certificate and i knew this certificate made reference to reinabalt having a class naught for the purposes
01:48:49 having a class naught for the purposes of fire performance although i did not know the technicalities associated with this
01:48:53 this after that whether or not the product could be used for a specific project was a matter of the customer to determine based upon their detailed knowledge of the project and the relevant building regulations i did not have any knowledge of the building regulations or associated
01:49:05 building regulations or associated guidance
01:49:05 guidance and would expect the customer to review the bba certificate to the extent necessary
01:49:10 necessary to make a decision and what's the reference
01:49:13 reference to the in the certificate which we will see
01:49:16 see in a moment uh was the reference in the certificate to class naught the relevant feature of the certificate in supporting your sales of rayna bond pe 55
01:49:28 of rayna bond pe 55 yes that's the general thing that most people spoke about and referred to so more so than wind loading or moisture resistance is that right yes yes absolutely
01:49:42 is that right yes yes absolutely do you agree that if a customer were using the bba certificate to make a decision about whether they could use p e chord rhino bond p p e 55
01:49:54 chord rhino bond p p e 55 that the certificate should have the correct information on it about about everything about it yes i would i would assume that that was correct
01:50:04 correct would you agree that in those circumstances the bba certificate should have
01:50:08 have complete information on it and not miss anything important out um yes but that's for the that's for people that are writing the documents to determine what goes in there that's not
01:50:19 determine what goes in there that's not something i can make comment on did you assume when you were using this document that the the bba certificate had both the correct information and the complete information
01:50:30 information and the complete information on it yes i would have done can we look at paragraph 56 of your statement please at page 16 second statement
01:50:44 you say it paragraph 56 in the second line
01:50:48 line however i can see that by reading the certificate again now that the product may be regarded as having nc naught classification that's national class naught i think classification and that in respect of
01:50:59 classification and that in respect of fire performance there are conditions confirming that any particular colours have received the relevant classifications and that other colors may not and must be confirmed by test or assessment
01:51:10 be confirmed by test or assessment then at 57 you say i was not aware of any discrepancy between the content of our comics pba certificate and the product supplied by arconic neither was i aware of any issue or problem with our connex bva certificate
01:51:22 problem with our connex bva certificate now before i ask you a little bit more about what you say there can we look at the certificate itself this is bba 6047.
01:51:37 and we can see there that at the top right hand corner this is indeed certificate number zero eight slash four five one zero
01:51:46 zero and just taking it steadily product sheet one says reyno bond architecture wall cladding panels product scope and summary of certificate this certificate of confirmation relates
01:51:58 this certificate of confirmation relates to reynabond architecture wall cladding panels aluminium
01:52:03 aluminium stroke polyethylene composite panels used to provide a decorative stroke protective facade over the external walls of buildings see that and at the bottom of that page if you could just be showing the bottom of page
01:52:15 could just be showing the bottom of page one
01:52:15 one you can see the date it's 14th of january 2008 signed by greg cooper you see that we go up then to the heading key factors assess which you can
01:52:26 heading key factors assess which you can see at the top of the screen in front of you
01:52:29 you it says in the third item uh behavior in relation to fire in relation to the building regulations for reaction to fire the panels may be regarded as having a class naught
01:52:40 regarded as having a class naught surface in england and wales and a low-risk material in scotland see section six
01:52:47 uh and just note the words please if you would the
01:52:50 would the the panels you see that the panels may be regarded and also note the words may be regarded as having a class naught surface um so i'm going to ask you some questions about that language
01:53:02 questions about that language but if you go over to section six as directed by page one here you'll see that on page five
01:53:10 and this is entitled behavior in relation to fire and at paragraph 6.1 and i'll read this slowly it's a standard sample
01:53:21 standard sample of the product with a gray green duragloss 5000 coating when tested for reaction to fire achieved a classification of b s 2 d naught in accordance with en
01:53:33 b s 2 d naught in accordance with en 13501 part 1 2002 a fire retardant sample of the product with a gold colored eurogloss finish when tested for reaction to fire achieve the classification
01:53:44 the classification b s1 d naught in accordance with en 13501 2002.
01:53:53 paragraph 6.2 a fire retardant sample of the product with a metallic gray pvdf finish when tested in accordance with bs 476 part 6 1989 achieved a fire propagation index
01:54:06 1989 achieved a fire propagation index i of naught and when tested in accordance with bs476 part 7 1997 achieved the class 1 surface spread of flame
01:54:15 flame paragraph 6.3 as a consequence of section 6.1 and 6.2 the products may be regarded as having a class naught surface in
01:54:26 as having a class naught surface in relation to the approved document b of the building regulations 2000 as amended england and wales and technical booklet e of the building regulations modern island 2 000 as amended
01:54:37 island 2 000 as amended and a low risk material was defined in nx2c and mx2e of the building scotland regulations 2004 as amended the unexposed side of the products may also be regarded as having a class small
01:54:49 be regarded as having a class small surface
01:54:51 surface and then 6.4 says these performances may not be achieved by other colors of the product
01:54:57 product and the designations of a particular color should be confirmed by and then there are some tests identified below it now just pausing there can we take it from your witness statement mrs french
01:55:09 from your witness statement mrs french that you believed that the certificate said that the products were class naught yes what were the products run upon 55 p e and
01:55:22 run upon 55 p e and fr uh my recollection at the time was uh p e nfr let's just look at the wording of the certificate a little bit more closely it says
01:55:35 a little bit more closely it says under paragraph 6.3 if we go to page five where we were and again on page one which summarizes it it says as a consequence of section 6.1 and 6.2
01:55:47 as a consequence of section 6.1 and 6.2 the products may be regarded as having a class naught surface did you notice when you reviewed this
01:55:58 did you notice when you reviewed this certificate either at the time mr burleigh asked you to when it was in draft or at any time later that it said that rayner bond may be regarded as having class naught not that it was class not
01:56:13 no as i say i didn't have enough technical knowledge at the time to or or knowledge of a bba certificate to to to look at that you see in your statement you say
01:56:25 statement you say it was class naught and i just want to explore that understanding did you ever consider the expression the products may be regarded as having a class north surface
01:56:36 regarded as having a class north surface did you ever think to yourself what values mine those words might mean no did it ever did the question ever occur to you that it might mean that might become
01:56:47 that it might mean that might become last northern might not be class not although there may be have to be a test or something like that no that document would have been given to other people in the in the chain and it would have been for
01:56:59 in the chain and it would have been for them to
01:57:00 them to they've got the technical knowledge to have decided whether it was suitable for what they were doing or not did you ever point out the wording in the certificate here may be regarded as having a class not surface to your
01:57:12 having a class not surface to your customers
01:57:13 customers no i would have just passed the document on for them to to read it and digest it and make the necessary um pull the necessary information out of it if any of your customers do you ever
01:57:24 if any of your customers do you ever remember ask you uh what do these words mean what does may be regarded as having a classified surface
01:57:31 surface mean no i don't recall them asking those questions
01:57:35 questions do you remember ever having a discussion with anybody either in iconic or outside our comic
01:57:41 our comic about that turn of phrase or what it might mean
01:57:46 no i don't do we take it from your evidence that you thought that those words meant these products have class not yes that's that's my understanding of it
01:58:02 can we also take it from your witness statement that you weren't aware of what documents whether test reports or
01:58:09 or classification reports supported any claim that reynobond pe was capable of being regarded as having a class not surface
01:58:22 sorry say that again can we take it from your evidence your witness statements that you
01:58:28 that you weren't aware of any documents whether the test reports or classification reports which supported the claim
01:58:37 the claim that reyna bond pe was capable of being regarded as could be regarded as having a class small surface um no it was the bba and the
01:58:48 um no it was the bba and the some of the product data sheets
01:58:54 you say some of the product data sheets data sheets produced by arconic yes i believe so my question again did you ever
01:59:03 ever see ever see any underlying test data test reports classification reports which supported the claim to class naught
01:59:11 naught um i don't recall seeing anything um i think there were occasions possibly that i was sent some information um
01:59:24 with certainly the um arab the arab email from earlier that had documentation to it that would have had the information that i wasn't allowed to
01:59:36 the information that i wasn't allowed to pass on that would have had information on there i believe what was the information you remember i can't remember no did you read that information um
01:59:50 again i can't i don't recall doing that probably would have read it but not necessarily i couldn't act on that because i didn't have enough technical knowledge to be able to act on it i would have probably
02:00:01 able to act on it i would have probably read it but not necessarily understood it or been able to make uh technical or being able to comment on it
02:00:08 it did you ask claude verle or even ask yourself
02:00:11 yourself what is it that i'm not allowed to tell my customers no i wouldn't have done that
02:00:23 sorry did i did i miss a question i don't think so you say i wouldn't have done that
02:00:31 done that my question was did you ask lord verde or even ask yourself what is it that i'm not allowed to tell my customers you say you answered a moment ago no i wouldn't have done that my question is why not um
02:00:43 my question is why not um because he's got far more knowledge about it than i ever have um and so no i don't believe i would have
02:00:50 have i would have asked that question i wonder to yourself what it was that claude voter wanted you to keep a secret from your club your customer i'm not sure i would refer it as a
02:01:00 it as a secret as probably i would necessarily thought about it as company information that they didn't want you know being divulged to customers in the way that it was written on that document
02:01:11 that it was written on that document the camera time became aware that our comic was in possession of technical data
02:01:16 data about the fire performance of rayner bond he brandon 155 pe or fr that uh iconic had but didn't want its customers to see
02:01:27 was i aware yes uh no i no i don't believe so not even from that email exchange we saw oh my lord no not at all
02:01:38 oh my lord no not at all no going back to the line of questioning we were on um were you ever made aware whether by mr burleigh or anybody else at our comic that you were selling um raynerbot in circumstances where
02:01:50 um raynerbot in circumstances where there had been no tests on raynor bond 55 with a pe core which showed that it met class naught
02:01:59 naught no i wasn't aware of that would you agree
02:02:02 agree that that was an important fact to you for you to have known uh yes
02:02:12 is that a fact that you would have expected arconic to have told you again i i wouldn't have had the knowledge to know exactly what i should know and what i shouldn't know um so i take the information that i'm
02:02:25 um so i take the information that i'm given i passed it on to my customers and then they make the calls and assess the information in the way that they need to for their for their projects and their work
02:02:36 for their projects and their work i understand that but given that you agree that uh the absence of any test on reynabon 55 or the pe core showing it to me class nor was an important thing for you to know
02:02:48 important thing for you to know does it follow from that and i suggest it must follow from that that that was something that you would have expected arconic at least to have told you
02:02:58 yes you can't think of any reason can you sitting there today why they would have kept you in the dark about that no not at all
02:03:09 if it's correct that in fact pe corp ran up renault 155 had never been subjected
02:03:16 subjected to a test under the relevant british standards
02:03:19 standards achieved class naught on what basis did you understand that reynold bond p e corps could be regarded as having a class north certificate a class more
02:03:30 class north certificate a class more classification again i wouldn't be able to i haven't got the technical knowledge to know whether
02:03:37 whether what they would have done to actually gain those certifications how much attention did you really pay uh to the fire safety of reynad bond
02:03:48 to the fire safety of reynad bond 55 when you were sending it to your customers
02:03:51 customers um not very much it was not it was very very very rare for a customer to raise any questions about it it was not something that was discussed the
02:04:02 something that was discussed the majority of what i dealt with was colours availabilities and those types of things it was no the the detail of of uh fire was not part of the
02:04:14 of uh fire was not part of the discussions do you accept that if it's correct that the claim
02:04:21 the claim uh that pe called rene 155 could be regarded as class nor was false
02:04:30 if that was correct then the claim made to that effect in the bba certificate would tend to mislead customers
02:04:41 um again i can't comment on that because i just don't i when i don't raise the documents and i don't have the right technical background to be able to to give a definite
02:04:52 able to to give a definite yes or no answer to that but well miss french
02:04:56 french forgive me for disagreeing with you about that but you were the sales person responsible that iconic for selling reinaborn pe55 if you were selling that product based upon claims made about its fire
02:05:09 based upon claims made about its fire performance in the bba certificate those claims were not
02:05:14 not were not in fact supported by any test do you agree that you were would be tending to mislead buyers yes i wouldn't i wouldn't have been knowing leah i wouldn't have done that
02:05:26 knowing leah i wouldn't have done that but yes inadvertently it would have been can you explain how it was that you were put in a position whereby you were given a document to give to customers which made false claims
02:05:38 claims about whether or not pe 55 was supported by a test class not no i can't let's get back to
02:05:49 no i can't let's get back to the certificate
02:05:55 i'm sorry the references said um
02:06:00 bba 6047 thank you very much you can see uh there uh there's a reference to pe called rayna bond with a gray green
02:06:11 rayna bond with a gray green coating duragloss 5000 achieving a bsd2 sorry bs 2 d naught classification in accordance with en13501 part 1
02:06:24 accordance with en13501 part 1 2002. now that's the european classification system and here it is in a document that you were going to be using to your english market
02:06:32 market did you at the time consider the european classifications relevant to your work
02:06:42 no
02:06:46 did you not ask somebody why it was that this certificate so important to your work as you said in selling renewborn 55 to the uk market gained anything about the euro cap euro
02:06:58 gained anything about the euro cap euro classifications if they weren't relevant no i didn't why not as i say it was not something that was ever
02:07:08 ever asked they i didn't get questioned about it
02:07:11 it and i didn't it didn't occur to me to ask
02:07:14 ask and query it
02:07:20 it surely would have occurred to you given that somebody in that comic had decided that the bba certificate should say something about euro classifications that indeed the uk market did want to know about these euro
02:07:32 market did want to know about these euro classifications otherwise what was the point of saying anything about it in this document as i say i used the document to pass the information on to customers for them to look at it's not something that i
02:07:44 look at it's not something that i um i haven't got that technical background and it's not something that i looked at in great detail you say in great detail did you look at it at all
02:07:55 it at all yes i i looked at it but i wouldn't have i wouldn't have quest as i said i didn't question um about why it got the reference to european uh norms in there were you aware of the documents that
02:08:08 were you aware of the documents that supported
02:08:09 supported the claim made here that pe called reyno bond with the grey green coating achieved bs 2 d naught in accordance with the european classification scheme
02:08:21 with the european classification scheme sorry could you repeat that are you aware of the documents that supported the plane made here that pe called raynaud with a grey green coating achieved a bs2 denal classification in
02:08:33 achieved a bs2 denal classification in accordance with the european fire classification scheme no i wasn't did you ever ask for them no were you ever made aware i'm sorry to interrupt you but i'm i
02:08:45 i'm sorry to interrupt you but i'm i sense that you're putting a case to miss french that ought to be put clearly if it's going to be part of a submission at a later stage to the effect that she should have taken the initiative in
02:08:58 should have taken the initiative in challenging her employers to produce test data to support what was in an apparently official certificate is is that what you're putting to her i'm
02:09:09 is that what you're putting to her i'm not i'm just seeking to explore uh precisely how aware the french was of what underlay these claims uh the responsibility uh for the technical
02:09:22 the responsibility uh for the technical data
02:09:23 data included in this document is is very likely to have been a matter for other witnesses whether we have all the witnesses or that's how it occurred to me but it was just that some of the questions
02:09:34 just that some of the questions seemed to be suggesting that she should have taken a course which she uh perhaps didn't take
02:09:41 take and is to be criticized for it but if that's not what you're putting then you've allayed my concerns i'm not putting it at this stage which is the early stages but there may come a time when that question
02:09:52 there may come a time when that question becomes slightly more slightly more pertinent and i'm not sure i want to
02:09:56 i want to get into a debate at this at this point you take your own course at this point mr chairman i am only asking her about what she knew and what on delay
02:10:04 on delay these documents mr french i'm sorry to be engaged in this debate i hope there was nothing unclear about what i was putting to you uh but let me let me try and put it a slightly different way and were you ever told that
02:10:19 and were you ever told that the test result identified in the certificate perhaps we should look back at it please that's a bba 6047
02:10:36 paragraph 6.1 were you ever told that the achievement of a classification of bs naught sorry bs2d naught was only achieved
02:10:49 sorry bs2d naught was only achieved by pe called acm in rivet fix
02:10:54 no did you know that at the same time as pe called acm in rivet fix achieved
02:11:05 called acm in rivet fix achieved b s2d naught classification arconic had also performed a european test on cassette fix
02:11:15 um i i'm aware of it now but i wasn't overly aware i don't recall it at the time
02:11:22 time would it follow that at the time you were also not aware that the test on the cassette fix variant under the european test regime was terminated before the test
02:11:35 regime was terminated before the test came to an end because the heat release became too high
02:11:40 high no i wouldn't have been aware of any of that as i said i don't have the knowledge to understand all of that would it follow and i i suppose it would the effect of that failure or that
02:11:52 the effect of that failure or that result was that there was no classification for pe called raynor bonding cassette fix
02:11:59 fix again i i can't answer that because i wasn't close enough and didn't and wouldn't have known the detail enough to know whether it was or whether it did or it didn't were you ever told
02:12:11 ever told doing the best you can with your recollection do you were you ever told that people in our comic have decided to ignore the results of the of the cassette test
02:12:23 of the of the cassette test on pe called raynaud 55 and say that all renault bombed pe core whether rivet or cassette fix achieved class b
02:12:34 class b s 2 d law no
02:12:41 as far as we've been able to find out ms french nobody in our conic ever told the bba
02:12:48 bba about that cassette test which failed
02:12:53 did you know that no
02:12:57 in those early years did you understand that there was any difference at all in fire performance for pe as between the cassette fix variant and the rivet
02:13:09 the cassette fix variant and the rivet fix variant no if it's true that the cassette variant of reynabon 55pe
02:13:19 55pe core not only not achieved a euro class b but in fact had had the test stopped early and was unclassified
02:13:30 and was unclassified would you agree if that's true would you agree
02:13:34 agree that there was a very serious omission for your purposes in the bba certificate
02:13:42 well yes because it wouldn't have been yes
02:13:46 yes and that that emission would have made the certificate significantly misleading for your customers
02:13:56 yes do you also agree that by stating as it does we can look at it again if you like that a standard sample of the product had achieved a
02:14:07 sample of the product had achieved a class
02:14:08 class b
02:14:11 that would lead buyers to think that the class b applied both to the rivet and to the cassette variant
02:14:21 oh yes are you able to account for how such a significantly false and misleading document on the hypothesis i'm putting to you was
02:14:33 on the hypothesis i'm putting to you was allowed to be put to the market in the uk no i don't are you able to account for how it was never withdrawn or corrected for almost a decade following its issue
02:14:45 for almost a decade following its issue in the january of 2008. no i can't
02:14:51 i'm going to show you some of the testing documents to see if you recognize any of them and miss friend forgive me for this and i strongly suspect from your evidence so far that we can take this quite quickly can we look at
02:15:06 arc50358
02:15:16 this is a cstb test report with classification number ra05305a and we we call this test 5a
02:15:29 and we we call this test 5a as a as a shorthand and you can see from the title that it's to the european standard
02:15:33 standard nf en13501 and and you can also you can't see but take it from me that this was performed on pe called raynor bond with a rivet fix
02:15:44 fix and it's dated the 7th of january 2005. if we look at page 2 product description we can see at the bottom that it was it was jira glass four thousand
02:15:55 was jira glass four thousand uh and uh i'm sorry jira gloss five thousand with the color gray green if we go to page four we can see the classification bs 2 d naught
02:16:08 bs 2 d naught you see that there and underneath that under section 4.3 it says under the second bullet point down only for the system riveted on any metallic substructure
02:16:20 metallic substructure now the first question is during your time at arconic did you ever see this document
02:16:26 document i don't recall seeing it now can we look at arc 50536 please
02:16:36 this is another cstb document this time called ra05 triple b tested to the same european standards
02:16:47 b tested to the same european standards and this was a test performed at around the same time as the one on the fix but this was done on the cassette fixed pe chord rhinobond and if we can go to page seven please you can see the comments
02:17:02 uh 630 seconds ignition inside the cassette in the angle about 700 seconds large ignition inside the cassettes 850 seconds stop of the main burner because hr
02:17:13 because hr heat release rate exceeded 400 kilowatts and then in bold the test was stopped after 850 seconds the results are not usable but give an idea of expired behavior of the product
02:17:25 idea of expired behavior of the product and on page 10 there are some images now you can take it from me that these are the pe core tests that existed as far as we know to the european classification at the time of the bba certificate uh
02:17:38 at the time of the bba certificate uh again is this a document you've ever seen before
02:17:46 now let's look at the test report for the fr panel in the gold color if we go to bba five series eight two sorry four zeros eight two eight eight
02:17:58 this is uh test ra0060372 and it's dated the 19th of october 2006 and it's done on reynabond fr again is this document
02:18:10 reynabond fr again is this document document that you you saw at all during your time at arconic no right
02:18:19 are these documents that you would have been able to access if you wanted to see them um i i can't i don't know because i don't know where they were where they were stored did your car did
02:18:32 where they were stored did your car did any of your customers ever ask to see the tests underlying the claims made in the bba certificate about the fire performance either of pe or fr
02:18:41 or fr no the only documents i was ever asked for were for the bba document did anybody does it follow from that but no customers ever ask you to justify the claims of the vba certificate a
02:18:53 the claims of the vba certificate a paragraph 6.1 or indeed 6.2 about i can recall no if they had asked you
02:19:01 you uh to justify the claims made what would you have said i would have posed the question over to the technical team and asked them for a response
02:19:10 response it's not something i would have answered myself
02:19:17 now going back to your statement uh you you go back to it if you like if you like it was that uh paragraph 56 in the second sentence perhaps we should just do that if we go back to your
02:19:28 just do that if we go back to your second statement page 16 please paragraph 56 thank you in the second sentence you you see we
02:19:35 see we i mean we read it together earlier you say i could see by reading the certificate again now the product may be regarded as having nc not classification and with respect to fire performance there are conditions confirming that only particular colors that receive
02:19:47 that only particular colors that receive the relevant classifications that other colors may not and must be confirmed by test assessment you say that um can we can we go back to the certificate then at page five
02:19:58 then at page five be it bba seven six zero forty seven six versus forty seven page five uh you could see
02:20:05 could see a paragraph six point four that i read to you
02:20:09 to you and also six point five where it says for resistance to fire performance of a wall incorporating the product can only be determined by tests from a suitably accredited laboratory and it's not
02:20:21 accredited laboratory and it's not covered by this certificate i've shown you all that again
02:20:26 again my questions are what color range or colors specifically do you think were covered by the bba certificate um well at the time of using a
02:20:39 um well at the time of using a certificate again it would i would have just passed the information onto a customer
02:20:43 customer and any questions they had from it then they would have asked me and i would have
02:20:47 have sought that information for them was the color restriction stated on the face of the certificate something that you appreciated when distributing certificates
02:20:59 no i don't recall it was did you ever have a discussion with anybody at arconic about whether and the extent to which perhaps this qualification limited the sales of
02:21:10 qualification limited the sales of products
02:21:11 products no did you ever have a discussion with any customer about whether or not the qualification or caveat in the certificate meant that they might not be able to buy the color they wanted
02:21:24 not be able to buy the color they wanted no so does it follow from that that to all intents and purposes these warnings about colors were simply ignored in your dealings with customers and your dealings internally at our comic
02:21:37 i didn't get i'd as i say any questions that were
02:21:40 that were arose out of the bba then i would have i would have passed them to our technical team for question for responses we very rarely got asked any questions about the bba
02:21:53 asked any questions about the bba do i take it from that you never said to any customers uh look the colors you want aren't covered by this certificate you'll need to do a test no i didn't and why is that
02:22:04 no i didn't and why is that given what the certificate says why didn't you have that again i come back to the to again that very rarely we asked and i was i asked any questions about
02:22:16 and i was i asked any questions about the
02:22:17 the fire implications on the bba or or generally there was just no discussions about fire performance you would be asked routinely is this right for colors
02:22:28 right for colors other than grey green or gold yeah all the time and in those all the time instances you would provide the bba certificate
02:22:40 you would provide the bba certificate yes yes
02:22:41 yes yes when you were doing so did you not point out that the colors that your customer wanted other than the gray green and the gold were not covered by the certificate
02:22:53 by the certificate no did you think all the colors were included
02:22:58 included no but as i said i'd pass the document on and any questions they'd had they'd come back to me on it but no i i didn't highlight that it was specifically for two colors so
02:23:11 specifically for two colors so you for a number of years sold all the colors in the range using the bba certificate as a means to achieve those sales without ever having a conversation one way or the other
02:23:22 a conversation one way or the other about whether the colors were covered by the certificate or not is that is that right yeah i don't recall having those conversations what was the purpose of the
02:23:33 what was the purpose of the qualification in relation to these colors
02:23:36 colors if they simply didn't feature in the discussions that you had either with your customers or internally at arconic i i don't know i can't answer that did you ever ask yourself that question
02:23:48 did you ever ask yourself that question no
02:23:50 no did you ever not ever wonder why it was that there were these qualifications in respect of these colors
02:24:00 no you ever asked by a customer in the uk to provide materials so that they could do a full-scale test of their chosen color
02:24:12 no
02:24:20 uh we're on i think page five of the bba certificate can we go back to page three please
02:24:32 bba five six zeroes forty seven page three
02:24:37 three now you can see here that um under paragraph one description it says under the more general heading technical specification paragraph 1.1 the radio
02:24:48 specification paragraph 1.1 the radio bond architectural wall cladding panels comprise two 0.5 millimeter thick aluminium alloy sheets
02:24:55 sheets etc bonded to a side bonded to either side of a core of low density polyethylene ldpe the panels are available either plain edged riveted system or flanged cassette system
02:25:06 system to suit architectural requirements c figure one and if you look down the page to the bottom of the page you'll see figure one
02:25:18 and that is entitled brainerd architecture panels and typical fixing systems and then there are two diagrams there's the riveted system on the left and the cassette system on the right do you see that yes do you
02:25:32 do you see that yes do you accept that figure one in its entirety read together with the statements about fire performance that we've looked at in detail
02:25:40 detail in section six of the certificate would lead the customer to think that both fixing systems were covered by the statement that pe standard achieve a euro class b
02:25:53 that pe standard achieve a euro class b sorry can you repeat that yes
02:25:58 do you accept that this diagram this figure
02:26:04 figure when you read them together with the statements about fire performance in section six would lead the customer reading this i think that both fixing systems cassette
02:26:15 think that both fixing systems cassette and rivet are covered by the claim that pe standard achieved a euro class b fire classification yes
02:26:28 and do you accept that that was in fact completely false
02:26:33 um from the information you're talking about
02:26:37 about um well yes and we've seen the certificate or the test
02:26:44 test test result for cassette test 5b which showed the cassette had failed
02:26:51 failed the euro fire classification test if it's right that it had done so then it is it would follow wouldn't it that the customer would be misled into
02:27:03 that the customer would be misled into thinking
02:27:04 thinking that both systems both fixing systems were class not class b when in fact only the rivet was yes
02:27:14 and far from this certificate saying that cassette would perform differently from what the certificate says in section six it's actually representing positively
02:27:25 it's actually representing positively that it would perform in the same way isn't it do you accept that yes thank you
02:27:35 mr chairman coming to a different topic uh i'm three minutes short of 4 30. i'm very happy to continue a little bit longer to make a little bit more progress
02:27:45 progress um to get to a more convenient point in about 10 minutes well mr millet um i know we lost time at the beginning of the day which was unfortunate but
02:27:56 unfortunate but i think we start running over half past four for what is projected to be 10 minutes we'll find we're running later and later so i think we'd be wiser to take a break at that point
02:28:07 to take a break at that point very good mr chairman i'm in your hands thank you
02:28:10 thank you all right well thank you for raising it um
02:28:13 um well as you can hear mr french we're going to break for the day now um we won't surprise you to know that we have to ask you to come back with some more
02:28:22 more questions tomorrow um we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning please and again i remind you please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or
02:28:33 anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it overnight okay yes all right well thank you very much uh
02:28:39 much uh and we'll look forward to seeing you again tomorrow okay thank you very much thank you
02:28:43 thank you and for everyone else 10 o'clock tomorrow please thank you very much
02:29:09 you