Arconic Evidence - Tuesday 9th February 2021 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:02 Good morning everyone. Welcome to today's hearing. As usual, I'm joined by my fellow panel members, Miss Ta Estafan and Mr. Ali Akbour.

00:00:14 and Mr. Ali Akbour. Good morning. Good morning. Now, as I've said before, uh I'd be very grateful if those of you who are not active participants in the hearing,

00:00:25 active participants in the hearing, which uh will normally include the witnesses legal representatives, would kindly keep your cameras and microphones switched off at all times unless for some reason uh you think it's necessary

00:00:38 some reason uh you think it's necessary to intervene. Uh before we meet the witness, I'm going to invite Mr. Millet uh to uh say a few words. Um yes, Mr. Millet.

00:00:50 words. Um yes, Mr. Millet. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Today we begin taking the evidence of the Aronic witnesses. Aronic was the manufacturer and the seller of the raincreen panels that were

00:01:02 seller of the raincreen panels that were installed as the cladding on Granfell tower.

00:01:06 tower. The product was Rainobond ACM P 55 PE in cassette fix. As the panel knows from my opening

00:01:17 As the panel knows from my opening statement at the start of this module too, we had invited certain iconic witnesses who are located in France and Germany to attend to give oral evidence

00:01:28 Germany to attend to give oral evidence to the inquiry. Those witnesses are specifically Mr. Claude Schmidt, managing director of Iconic Architectural Products in Merksheim, France. Mr. Schmidt has now

00:01:41 Merksheim, France. Mr. Schmidt has now belatedly agreed unconditionally to give oral evidence on behalf of the company. I will return to him in a moment. Mr. Claude Vle, head of the technical

00:01:52 Mr. Claude Vle, head of the technical sales support team of Aronic, also based at Merkshheim. At the time of his most recent statement of the 11th of September 2019, he was still employed at Aronic.

00:02:05 he was still employed at Aronic. However, we understand he has now moved to another company. His witness statement, the number of which I will read into the record, is ME3053190.

00:02:17 Mr. Peter Frillic, product manager for Raino Bond. At the time of his statement, 10th of September 2019, we believe he was employed at Aronic, but

00:02:28 believe he was employed at Aronic, but we understand that he is no longer employed there. His witness statement is at ME30's

00:02:34 at ME30's 53197.

00:02:36 53197. Guanel Durand, whose job title was inside sales assistant at Aronic Architectural Products, which is an internal sales support role. We understand that she has moved on from

00:02:48 understand that she has moved on from Aronic as well. Her witness statement is at ME3053191.

00:02:56 Mr. Valet and Mr. And reside in France. Mr. Felic resides in Germany. Each of these three witnesses has been given a final chance to decide whether or not to

00:03:08 final chance to decide whether or not to come to give evidence to the inquiry. Having been told that Mr. Schmidt has changed his mind and is now willing to do so unconditionally. They still refuse to come to assist you.

00:03:20 They still refuse to come to assist you. I regret to say the basis of their refusal is that they consider that they might expose themselves to prosecution under article 1b of French law number

00:03:31 under article 1b of French law number 68678

00:03:33 68678 of the 26th of July 1968 as modified in 1980.

00:03:38 1980. That law is otherwise known as the French blocking statute or FBS. Article 1 BIS of the FBS provides as follows. Subject to international

00:03:50 follows. Subject to international treaties or agreements and applicable laws and regulations, any individual is prohibited from requesting, seeking or disclosing in writing orally or in any other form documents or information of

00:04:03 other form documents or information of an economic, commercial, industrial, financial or technical nature with a view to establishing evidence in foreign, judicial or administrative proceedings or in relation there too. To

00:04:17 proceedings or in relation there too. To be clear, these three witnesses fear prosecution by the French authorities for providing information to the inquiry that includes oral evidence.

00:04:28 that includes oral evidence. The position as at today is in summary as follows. Until the summer of 2020, Ela Piper represented Aronic as a

00:04:39 Ela Piper represented Aronic as a company and all of the witnesses as individuals through their lawyers. Aronic and the individual witnesses relied on the FBS as a reason not to

00:04:50 relied on the FBS as a reason not to provide any documents or information to the inquiry. They gave disclosure of the majority of their documents, not pursuant to the inquiry's own powers of compulsion of evidence, but in the end

00:05:03 compulsion of evidence, but in the end after service of a European investigation order as part of a criminal procedure operated by the Metropolitan Police, who then disclosed the documents they received to the

00:05:14 the documents they received to the inquiry in turn. In March 2020, after module one's hearings had been suspended and after the attorney general's undertaking had

00:05:25 the attorney general's undertaking had been secured, Arton Arconic told the inquiry that the FBS prevented Aronic's potential witnesses, all of them, from giving any oral evidence to the inquiry.

00:05:37 giving any oral evidence to the inquiry. That included Miss Deborah French, Vince Meakins, and Peter Fredic, even though they are not resident in France. At that stage, none of the potential witnesses had taken their own independent legal

00:05:50 had taken their own independent legal advice about the FBS independent of our conic.

00:05:56 conic. As a result, the inquiry engaged the FCDO and in instigated discussions at the highest level in government between the French and the United Kingdom governments, respectively, in order to

00:06:08 governments, respectively, in order to see whether an international agreement could be reached, whereby the French authorities could give adequate assurances to our witnesses that they would not be prosecuted under the FBS if they gave oral evidence to the inquiry.

00:06:21 they gave oral evidence to the inquiry. Those discussions took a number of months and resulted in a note verbal of the 7th of December 2020 received uh by the inquiry on the 8th of December 2020.

00:06:33 the inquiry on the 8th of December 2020. That note Val said that it was the opinion of the French government that the inquiry does not appear to fall within the scope of article one BIS of the FBS and that consequently and I

00:06:46 the FBS and that consequently and I quote the French authorities do not share the position that the blocking statute constitutes an obstacle to the examination of Aronics employees before

00:06:57 examination of Aronics employees before the inquiry and I close quote. However, the note verbal also said that the FBS did not confer any power on the French administration to remove a prohibition

00:07:09 administration to remove a prohibition there and that it was what it called jurisdictions in other words courts that have the authority over the interpretation of the criminal law.

00:07:20 interpretation of the criminal law. The note verbal does not go so far therefore as to offer immunity to our conics witnesses from prosecution under the FBS because that is something that the French government says it cannot

00:07:31 the French government says it cannot provide. That means that if our conics witnesses gave moral evidence, although they would have the benefit of the protection of the United Kingdom attorney general's undertaking in

00:07:43 attorney general's undertaking in respect of any offenses committed in the United Kingdom or capable of being prosecuted, which arises out of the substance of their answers, they would not have the benefit of any protection

00:07:54 not have the benefit of any protection in respect of the French blocking statute, which may be infringed by the giving of any information whether or not it incriminates the witness. Since this inquiry is not a court and

00:08:05 Since this inquiry is not a court and cannot determine a person's civil or criminal liability, it appears to the inquiry to be very doubtful that the French blocking statute has any application to evidence given to the

00:08:17 application to evidence given to the inquiry. But even if the French blocking statute were to be engaged, then as a matter of English law, the position is that whether these witnesses must give

00:08:28 that whether these witnesses must give evidence in the face of the French blocking statute is a matter of the panel's discretion. That discretion is a wide one. But the English cases dealing with documentary

00:08:39 English cases dealing with documentary disclosure in this context say that someone seeking to be excused from their disclosure obligations in civil proceedings which would be caught by the French blocking statute must satisfy the

00:08:51 French blocking statute must satisfy the court with supporting evidence that there is a real risk of prosecution if they complied. Even assuming that the French blocking statute applied, none of the witnesses

00:09:02 statute applied, none of the witnesses has provided such evidence. In fairness to our comic and the three recalcitrant witnesses, I would point out the following things. First,

00:09:13 out the following things. First, although Arconic itself originally raised the French blocking statute objection in respect of all of its potential witnesses, in June 2020, it arranged for each of these witnesses,

00:09:25 arranged for each of these witnesses, except Mr. Claude Schmidt to take their own independent legal advice. Claude Schmidt, our colleagues president, remained advised by DAP, our colleagues solicitors.

00:09:36 solicitors. Miss Deborah French and Mr. Vince Makkins have chosen on advice from a large and reputable firm of solicitors to give evidence. Claude Verle, Peter Frolic, and Gel Verenda based in France

00:09:47 Frolic, and Gel Verenda based in France and Germany have refused to do so on French or German legal advice. A colleague would like it known that the decision not to attend is the independent decision of each of these

00:09:58 independent decision of each of these witnesses. The inquiry's position is first that it was never so in respect of Mr. Schmidt who remained and remains advised and represented by DAP Maronic solicitors as his own RLR.

00:10:12 solicitors as his own RLR. Secondly, although that is so now in respect of the three remaining foreign witnesses, it was iconic that originated the objection based on the French blocking statute on behalf of all such witnesses.

00:10:24 witnesses. Secondly, the legal advisers of each of these three witnesses has told the inquiry that they cannot advise their clients, these witnesses, to run the risk of committing a criminal offense under the French blocking statute. The

00:10:37 under the French blocking statute. The inquiry's position is that that is too simplistic an approach and it ignores the English court's approach of demanding an objective and realistic assessment of the risk based on

00:10:48 assessment of the risk based on evidence. Thirdly, although the French blocking statute excludes any arrangements made by international treaty, there is no international treaty relating to these three witnesses and none is imminent. International treaties

00:11:01 none is imminent. International treaties take a long time to negotiate and we cannot sit and wait for these lucrations to materialize in a binding and legal agreement with the Republic of France. The absence of any substantial risk of

00:11:13 The absence of any substantial risk of prosecution does not make an indefinite delay of that nature fair or proportionate. It would be a significant interruption to the inquiry's work. Summarizing it thus far, therefore, the

00:11:25 Summarizing it thus far, therefore, the inquiry's position is that the refusal of these witnesses to come and give evidence is unreasonable. They cannot be compelled because a notice under section 21 cannot be

00:11:36 notice under section 21 cannot be enforced in France or in Germany. They have nonetheless been sent section 21 notices all the same. Now, what I have said may or is

00:11:48 Now, what I have said may or is contested by Aronic. You will hear from Aronic in detail about these matters in their module 2 closing submissions. Aronic says that it

00:11:59 closing submissions. Aronic says that it is unfair that it has no opportunity to make its submissions about all this at this stage. But I should just point out that it has not applied to address you now on them. And all I would simp say at

00:12:10 now on them. And all I would simp say at this stage is that I am simply laying out publicly the inquiry's position in response to our comic's stance and to explain the background to why there are so few iconic witnesses giving oral

00:12:21 so few iconic witnesses giving oral evidence to the inquiry. Members of the panel, you may very well decide at the end of the day, having heard from our comic, that it was fair and reasonable to excuse these witnesses from coming to

00:12:33 to excuse these witnesses from coming to give evidence. That must remain a matter for you having heard all the arguments. But the inquiry council team's position is that it is not reasonable. As I

00:12:44 is that it is not reasonable. As I mentioned before, on the 20th of January 2021, after some weeks of correspondence between DLA Piper and the inquiry, Schmidt agreed to

00:12:55 Piper and the inquiry, Schmidt agreed to give oral evidence without any of the conditions uh that he and Aronic had previously sought to impose on his doing so. We have therefore quite late on

00:13:06 so. We have therefore quite late on revised the module 2 timetable to take account of that fact and one would hope that many of the questions we wish to put to Mr. Verle and the other nonUK witnesses would be answered by him.

00:13:18 witnesses would be answered by him. However, it may also be necessary to set out the further questions that we would have wished to put to those witnesses in a separate presentation and we will keep that question under review as the

00:13:29 that question under review as the evidence progresses. Mr. Mr. Schmidt's command of English is not so strong as to give him the confidence to give his evidence in English. And so we have arranged for him to give his evidence

00:13:40 arranged for him to give his evidence through interpreters and to be shown some of the documents in the French language with English translations and vice versa where we can. We will explain a little more about that process when he

00:13:53 a little more about that process when he comes to give evidence. And so we will now proceed uh with our questioning of the arcom witnesses who have agreed to attend uh but without all of the people who may be able to answer

00:14:04 of the people who may be able to answer all of the questions that we have. Mr. Chairman, I I would now like please to call Miss Deborah French. Thank you very much, Mr. Millet. Well, we can now meet today's witness, Miss

00:14:16 we can now meet today's witness, Miss French. Uh Miss French, I think you're there waiting to be uh waiting to be questioned. Can you see me and can you hear me?

00:14:25 hear me? Yes, I can, sir. Good. Thank you very much. Um, now I understand you would prefer to take the oath rather than to make an affirmation. Yes, please. Right. Do you have a New Testament with

00:14:37 Right. Do you have a New Testament with you or a Bible which contains the New Testament? Yeah.

00:14:40 Yeah. Right now, on the screen in front of you, you may find the words of the oath. Are they there? Yes, they are. Would you take the Bible in your right hand, please,

00:14:51 in your right hand, please, and repeat the words on the screen? I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Thank you very much. Now, um, just a

00:15:03 Thank you very much. Now, um, just a couple of housekeeping matters we have to deal with. First of all, can you confirm that you're alone in the room from which you're giving evidence? Yes, I can confirm that. Thank you. Can you also confirm that you

00:15:15 Thank you. Can you also confirm that you have no documents or other materials with you?

00:15:18 with you? No, none at all. Good. Thank you. And finally, can you confirm that your mobile phone is in another room and that you don't have any other electronic uh device in the room

00:15:31 other electronic uh device in the room which is capable of receiving messages? No, I have nothing in the room. Lovely. Thank you very much indeed. Now, um, you probably know this, but I should tell you that your legal representatives

00:15:42 tell you that your legal representatives are in the hearing room following the evidence. They can intervene if they consider it necessary to do so, but otherwise, I've asked them to keep their microphones and cameras switched off to

00:15:54 microphones and cameras switched off to avoid technical problems. Okay.

00:15:57 Okay. I hope we shan have any problems with sound or vision. uh if they if we do, we'll take a short break while the technical uh team resolves them. All right. Uh and if you need to attract my

00:16:10 right. Uh and if you need to attract my attention for any reason, just please indicate in some appropriate way and we'll uh see what the problem is. You might like to know that we're planning to have a short break roughly halfway

00:16:22 to have a short break roughly halfway through each session. It'll be about um 11:15 in the morning session and about 3:15 in the afternoon session. But if at any stage you think you need an

00:16:33 any stage you think you need an additional break, will you just indicate and we'll we'll try and accommodate you. Um one thing I do need to mention because we're going to have breaks in your evidence. Uh once you've started

00:16:44 your evidence. Uh once you've started giving evidence, it's important that you don't discuss your evidence or anything relating to it with anyone else until you've completely finished. Um I don't know whether your evidence will go over

00:16:55 know whether your evidence will go over until tomorrow, but there's obviously an opportunity overnight to talk to people and plea please resist it. Um I'll try to remind you of that whenever we have a break, but uh if I fail to do so, please

00:17:07 break, but uh if I fail to do so, please bear it in mind nonetheless. All right. Now, um, before we start, is there any question you have for anything you'd like to bring to my attention? No, not at the moment. Thank you, sir.

00:17:18 No, not at the moment. Thank you, sir. You're ready to go. Good. All right. Thank you very much. Well, in that case, I'm going to invite Mr. Millet to put some questions to you. Thank you. Sir, I do apologize for interrupting. This is Steven Hoffman on behalf of

00:17:31 This is Steven Hoffman on behalf of It's merely a a technical point. My um transcript is um behaving in a slightly curious way. I don't know if this affects anyone else. If it doesn't, then

00:17:42 affects anyone else. If it doesn't, then I will um immediately go away and uh try and sort it out. But at the moment, what seems to be happening is that the transcript is scrolling continuously through yesterday's

00:17:53 through yesterday's proceedings and and not recording what is being said today. Right. Thank you for drawing that to my attention, Mr. Hawkman. Um I was going to you got to the end of our introduction. I've had a general message

00:18:05 introduction. I've had a general message that we've had a number of a number of uh objections from other RLRs. The transcript is not working for them. So, I think we're g I'm afraid and I apologize to the witness as well. We're

00:18:16 apologize to the witness as well. We're going to have to take a break while we sort this out because clearly they need to be able to see the transcript. Of course, we all need to have the transcript. Well, Miss French, that's um very disappointing, isn't it? We have a problem with the technology right at the

00:18:28 problem with the technology right at the beginning. Um I think we will have to take a break. We'll get back to you as soon as we can and um uh once we've got the the problem sorted out. Okay.

00:18:39 Okay. So, remember what I've just said to you. You haven't actually started giving your evidence, but um once you've taken the oath, you have to regard yourself as being in in communicado for these purposes.

00:18:49 purposes. Okay.

00:18:50 Okay. All right. We'll get back to you as soon as we can. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

01:05:59 Hello everyone. I've asked for us all to come back into the hearing room really just so that I can explain what's been going on. As you will realize by now, we have a serious problem with one aspect

01:06:11 have a serious problem with one aspect of the technology. I should make it clear that it's not a problem with the remote video platform which we are using. The problem resides in the rolling transcript which for reasons I

01:06:24 rolling transcript which for reasons I can't explain was not going out properly to the various lawyers who have to be involved in the hearing. Uh it's not possible for them to deal with the hearing without the benefit of the

01:06:35 hearing without the benefit of the rolling transcript and uh we've been making efforts or opus have on our behalf to try to restore the connection. Unfortunately, it's been much more difficult to do that than anyone had

01:06:47 difficult to do that than anyone had expected.

01:06:48 expected. So uh I have decided that we need the sensible course to take is to adjourn the hearing for a bit longer in order to give opus a real opportunity to identify

01:07:01 give opus a real opportunity to identify the fault, correct it and ensure that when we come back uh we are ready to go on without interruption. Now uh Miss French, I hope you've been

01:07:12 Now uh Miss French, I hope you've been able to uh hear everything I've just said. I I'm sorry this is very inconvenient for you and I appreciate that fully but there's nothing I can do for the time being. I hope that at least

01:07:24 for the time being. I hope that at least if we say now that we will adjourn until half 11 it will at least give you an opportunity to leave the room make yourself a cup of coffee or whatever. Uh

01:07:35 yourself a cup of coffee or whatever. Uh and um I'm hoping that by 11 the problem will have been resolved and we can continue then without interruption. Um, okay,

01:07:45 okay, there it is. I'm very sorry. I apologize to everyone for this difficulty. Uh, we will break now and resume the hearing at 11. Thank you very much.

01:40:09 Welcome back everyone. I'm sorry that the adjournment lasted a little longer than I originally said it would, but the problem took a bit longer to resolve. Anyway, I'm told that it has been

01:40:20 Anyway, I'm told that it has been resolved and that we're ready to continue. So, first of all, Miss French, can you see me and can you hear me? Yes. Yes, I can. Thank you, sir.

01:40:31 Yes. Yes, I can. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. And I'm I'm sorry that we've kept you hanging on like this. It's um disruptive. I understand that. But I'm afraid there was nothing we could do about it. But we are now ready to continue. So, Mr. Millet, when

01:40:42 ready to continue. So, Mr. Millet, when you're ready, Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Uh Miss French, first of all, can I start by thanking you very much for attending this public inquiry to give your evidence. We are very grateful to you

01:40:54 evidence. We are very grateful to you for coming. If you have any difficulty understanding any of the questions that I'm going to ask you, then please say and I can put the question in a different way or or repeat it. If you feel you need a break at any point,

01:41:06 feel you need a break at any point, please let us know. Although we will be taking scheduled breaks during the course of the day. Uh I don't quite know whether we're going to run straight to lunchtime. I suspect we might. Um but we'll certainly be taking a break in the

01:41:17 we'll certainly be taking a break in the middle of the afternoon. Can I also just say that we um would like you very much to keep your voice up so that the transcriber who is also on this call can get down your evidence onto the transcript so that everybody can read

01:41:29 transcript so that everybody can read it. Also just uh when you're giving answers yes or no, try to say yes or no and not uh not nod your head or shake your head as the case may be. Now Miss French, you've made uh two witness

01:41:42 French, you've made uh two witness statements uh and they will appear on the screen in front of you. Can we go first please to me uh 3019063.

01:42:01 Uh now this is your statement dated the 14th of September 2017. And we'll call this your first witness statement. It's eight pages long and it's unsigned.

01:42:13 eight pages long and it's unsigned. Can I just get you to confirm that that is your first witness statement? Just looking at that first page there. Yes, it is. Thank you. Can we now go to ME3053162,

01:42:25 please? This is your statement dated the 4th of November, 2019. As you can see there, and we'll call this your second witness statement. It's 34 pages long. And if we could go please to page 34, uh

01:42:38 And if we could go please to page 34, uh we will see uh the signature there just above the date, 4th of November, 2019. Is that your signature? Yes, it is. Have you read these statements recently?

01:42:50 Have you read these statements recently? Yes, I have. Now, I've got a correction that I want to propose to you if I may. Can we look at your second witness statement of paragraph 3 on page one, please? ME30162.

01:43:12 uh and uh if you look at paragraph three in the third sentence there you say with reference to your your third statement uh you say I would however note

01:43:27 uh you say I've had an operation I've had an opportunity to reread that statement and I confirm I have no corrections to make other than the minor clarification of paragraph 63 below. Now

01:43:38 clarification of paragraph 63 below. Now let's look at paragraph 63 that you'll find that on page 17 please and it's a statement about defects in reo bond and you'll see paragraph 63 you

01:43:50 reo bond and you'll see paragraph 63 you say prior to 14th June 2017 I was not aware of any particular defects or concerns regarding either reoond or FR and if you look at paragraph 64

01:44:03 and if you look at paragraph 64 immediately below at the very bottom of the page if we can just be shown In the very bottom of that page, you say, uh, I would however note, two lines up

01:44:14 uh, I would however note, two lines up from the bottom, I would however note that in my first witness statement, I indicated that my involvement in the Granfell Tower project began in early 2013

01:44:24 2013 and that I, if you go over the page, I attended a meeting with Mr. Jeff Blades, C Bruce Sen Studio E, and a representative of Leadbit Bitter on 4th March 2013.

01:44:36 March 2013. And you then I think go on to correct that saying that it was it was likely that your initial contact with the project was October 2012. Did you mean to say that your that the correction to your first witness

01:44:47 correction to your first witness statement was paragraph 64 and not paragraph 63?

01:44:53 I I um in terms of the paragraphs I'm I yes it would seem it's it's paragraph 64. Um but I I had altered it through to

01:45:05 64. Um but I I had altered it through to the the um the date that I thought I'd first made contact on that particular project.

01:45:11 project. Yes. Thank you. Now, say for that correction, do you say that the contents of these two witness statements are true?

01:45:18 true? Yes, I do. Have you discussed these statements or your evidence that you're going to give today with anybody before coming here today?

01:45:27 today? No, I haven't. Now, when you were working at Aronic, I think it was known as Alcoa. Is that right? That's right. Now, in your statements, you refer to that entity as AAPSAS.

01:45:39 that entity as AAPSAS. Um, I'm going to refer to that entity as our comic throughout the questions and answers. Is that is that clear to you? Yes.

01:45:46 Yes. Thank you. Now, I'm going to start some questions um with your role uh and in that the dates uh of your employment and what it involved. Am I right in thinking you started working at Aronic in October

01:45:59 you started working at Aronic in October 2007?

01:46:01 2007? Yes.

01:46:01 Yes. And you left at the end of December 2014. Yes. Yes.

01:46:06 Yes. But in early 2015, you joined a company, I think, called Taylor Maxwell. Is that right?

01:46:11 right? Yes.

01:46:12 Yes. If we look at your first witness statement, please, uh, I'd like to go to paragraph two.

01:46:23 We can just have your first witness statement up, please. Paragraph two, you say, "Between October 2007 and December 2014, my job title was UK sales manager for Alcoa Architectural Products, SAS,

01:46:36 for Alcoa Architectural Products, SAS, AAP, SAS, which we'll call our based in Merkheim, France. Because I was and remain resident in the UK, I was employed by Corner UK Limited and associated with Aronic. Although I

01:46:48 associated with Aronic. Although I received the overwhelming majority of my instructions from and reported to personnel at Aronic. Uh, now you weren't directly employed by Aronic, were you?

01:47:00 Aronic, were you? No, I wasn't. You were employed, I think, by the company you identified here, namely Cornier UK Limited. Is that right? That's right. Yes. You say that the that company was an

01:47:11 You say that the that company was an associate of Aronic. Can you explain how Corna UK Limited is or was associated with Arconic? Uh Cornier was part of the Alcoa Group

01:47:23 Uh Cornier was part of the Alcoa Group as was Alcoa Architectural Products which you're referring to as Aronic. So my salary was paid through Corner um and

01:47:34 my salary was paid through Corner um and other associated HR items. Yes, I see. But you say um that Corner was part of the Alcoa Group. You mean it was a a company owned by Alcoa?

01:47:46 was a a company owned by Alcoa? Yes.

01:47:47 Yes. Uh now, uh when you say, as I've just shown you, that the overwhelming majority of your instructions came from Aronic, do you mean that you had as instructions from elsewhere as well?

01:48:00 instructions from elsewhere as well? No, just from Aronic. In Merkime? In Merkheim. Did you ever take instructions from from anywhere else? No, only only nothing at all. only from

01:48:11 No, only only nothing at all. only from it from a corner paid my salary and a company car was provided and IT equipment

01:48:17 equipment and I think you also had an email address Alcoa email address in yes I did

01:48:22 yes I did um c can we look at your second witness statement please at paragraph 11 on page three

01:48:29 three second witness statement page three

01:48:34 and uh you say in paragraph 11 as explained in my first witness statement I was technically ly employed by a company called Corna UK Limited. I did not work with the team at Corna and my

01:48:46 not work with the team at Corna and my only colleague was Robert Campbell who worked as a sales representative for Reo Lux, another product of our comic. Robert and I did not work together as such but would refer leads to one

01:48:58 such but would refer leads to one another. I did not report to anyone at Cornier and to the best of my knowledge, no one else at Cornier had any involvement with Aronic. I received a salary for my work and did not work on a commission basis.

01:49:09 commission basis. Now I've shown you all of that just a number of questions which flow from it. Do do I understand am I right in thinking that your employment at Cornier was not as a normal employee. You weren't furthering the business of

01:49:20 weren't furthering the business of Cornier as opposed to Arconic generally. I didn't work for Corner. No. Right. So your role was was to promote sales for Aronic. Is that right?

01:49:31 sales for Aronic. Is that right? Absolutely. Yes. And you were appointed via Cornier basically as an an arrangement within the Aronic group. Is that is that Yes. Yes.

01:49:42 Yes. Yes. Do you know why Arconic had that arrangement with Cornier? Um I I don't as I say the only I had my salary received through Corna. Um and my

01:49:54 salary received through Corna. Um and my IT equipment and and company car that was all that was the only dealings I had with them. Your formal contract and employment was with Cornier. Yes. Yeah. Now who at or to whom I

01:50:06 Yes. Yeah. Now who at or to whom I should say at Aronic did you report during your time in general while working for Aronic? Uh latly it would have been Peter Frolish.

01:50:17 Frolish. Right. And specifically from 2012 onwards Peter Frolic. Yes.

01:50:21 Yes. Yeah. And was that reporting line formalized in any way? Do you remember? I can't remember in terms of the formalities of it.

01:50:33 in terms of the formalities of it. Right. When you were working there, did you you say you didn't have an office? Um, you just worked from home and traveled to meet customers. Is that right?

01:50:41 right? That's right. Right. Where did you keep important documents that were important to your job?

01:50:47 job? Uh, they would have been either with me at the time or they would have been in my office at home. I see. And how did you keep those documents at home?

01:50:58 documents at home? They would have been in um if they were paper versions, they would have been in in my office um in files um in my desk and and or in my my work case.

01:51:10 and and or in my my work case. Right. And did you have a an iconic laptop or computer or was it your personal laptop or computer? No, I didn't use my own personal equipment for any work related duties at

01:51:21 equipment for any work related duties at all.

01:51:21 all. So this was they were iconic equipment were they? Yeah, they were issued through Corner though, but they were alcohonics. Yes.

01:51:30 Yes. How did you usually communicate with your contacts at Aronic? Either phone or email. And you signed yourself one emails, as you say, not only with an alconic an

01:51:42 you say, not only with an alconic an Alcoa email address, but also as a sales representative for Alcoa or Aliconic Latin.

01:51:48 Latin. Yes, that's right. Yes. So is is it right to say that to the outside world, anyone dealing with you from the outside, you are dealing on behalf of Aronic?

01:51:59 behalf of Aronic? That's right. Yes. Now I want to look at the relationships within Arconic if I can. You mentioned in your witness statement we've just seen that you worked alongside a Mr. Robert Campbell uh and you say he

01:52:11 Robert Campbell uh and you say he represented Reo Lux or sales representative for Reo Lux. We may come to the differences between those products in a moment, but just for the moment, do do I understand it correctly

01:52:22 moment, do do I understand it correctly that you meant that you were the sales representative for Reo Bond, the product?

01:52:28 product? Yes.

01:52:29 Yes. And you you say that you didn't work together with Robert Campbell, but you would refer leads to each other. In what circumstances would you refer a lead to Robert Campbell?

01:52:40 Robert Campbell? If we had a customer requesting some renalux product, then I would refer that to him to deal with with the customer, I wouldn't deal with that directly myself.

01:52:51 wouldn't deal with that directly myself. I see. And would the same work vice versa? If somebody got hold of Robert Campbell but wanted Reo Bond, he would refer the customer to you. Is that right?

01:53:01 right? Yes, that's right. And would a customer have to ask specifically for Renolux or was there some other way that know that that the customer would know that you would refer a lead to Robert Campbell?

01:53:13 a lead to Robert Campbell? They would generally ask for Renaolux. Excuse me. And they would generally ask for Rena.

01:53:20 for Rena. Yes. Thank you. Can we look at Peter Frolic's statement please? This is ME30's 53197. And I'd like to look at page three.

01:53:32 uh it it's a long paragraph about his role and I want to look at page three but it starts on page two. I don't need to go back to that but I'd like to look with you please at the middle of that page. It's quite difficult to navigate

01:53:45 page. It's quite difficult to navigate so if it could be blown up. Thank you very much. Now he says um and on the screen it's about seven lines down. He says from around 2011 2012 can you see that?

01:53:56 that? Yes I can. He says, "I then became responsible for all European representatives including UK, France and Spain."

01:54:05 Spain." And then he lists some names. Uh and then he lists after Portugal your name Deborah French later Vince Beakin's UK. Did you report to Peter Frolic from 2011

01:54:18 Did you report to Peter Frolic from 2011 2012?

01:54:19 2012? Yes, I did. He's right about those dates. Yes.

01:54:22 Yes. Okay. Now, do I understand correctly that Peter Frolic was in charge of reoond sales for the UK among other countries? Yes, he was. Was he also in charge of Rainolux? Do

01:54:34 Was he also in charge of Rainolux? Do you know?

01:54:35 you know? No, I don't believe he was. What other Aronic products, if any, was Peter Frolic in charge of? Do you know? Um,

01:54:45 Um, my understanding was it was just Reneond,

01:54:47 Reneond, right?

01:54:49 right? Uh

01:54:52 Uh he am I right that Peter Frolic reported to the director of sales and marketing? That's right. Yes. And who was that? Do you remember during the period 2012 to 2016?

01:55:06 the period 2012 to 2016? Um there were there were two there was Ge Shyeka and then after that Alan Flackon but I'm unsure of the exact dates that they were both uh within their positions.

01:55:18 their positions. Yes. And and so does the reporting line would therefore be from you up to Peter Foliff in relation to Rainobond and from Peter Frolic either to Gishidea or Anna Flackon?

01:55:28 Flackon? That's right. On when Alan Flackon took over from Gishidea.

01:55:31 Gishidea. Yes.

01:55:32 Yes. Yes. Was Peter Frick's job focused on sales particularly? Um I understand they were. Yes. Right. And I say sales, I mean sales as opposed to having a technical role or a

01:55:45 opposed to having a technical role or a quality assurance role of some kind. No, it was purely sales. Purely sales. And am I right that the director of sales and marketing uh whoever it was from time to time would

01:55:57 whoever it was from time to time would report to the managing director at Merkheim.

01:56:00 Merkheim. That's right. Right. And that was uh Mr. Claude Schmidt, was it? Yes.

01:56:07 Yes. Was it always Mr. Claude Schmidt? from when I joined. Yes, it was right now. We you've told us and we see indeed in your second statement that you you were paid a salary and you didn't

01:56:18 you were paid a salary and you didn't work on a commission basis. Who paid your salary? Was that Cornier? Yes, it was. Who reviewed your performance? Peter Froish, right? And he was he employed by

01:56:29 right? And he was he employed by Cornier?

01:56:30 Cornier? No, I don't believe so. I see.

01:56:33 I see. Uh can we look at Peter Frolish's exhibit um at page 23? And this is ME3053161,

01:56:42 please. Page 23.

01:56:46 Uh, and there's an email which will pop up in a moment. There it is. Um, there's an email uh from you to Peter Froliff dated the

01:56:59 uh from you to Peter Froliff dated the 6th of June, 2014. The dates in in French.

01:57:05 French. uh and it's copied to yourself and the subject is read projects in pipeline and action plan to achieve the forecast and you say in the first line there read the

01:57:16 you say in the first line there read the RB forecast. Yes, I'm working towards achieving the target and will be close to it.

01:57:24 to it. Uh now do I understand correctly from this that you had sales targets? Yes, I did. Good. And were those to meet forecast sales

01:57:35 And were those to meet forecast sales figures?

01:57:36 figures? Yes, they were. Who set those targets? Do you remember? Uh, Merksheim. Merksheim. Who at Merkheim? Peter Frolish. Peter Frolish. And did he have to the

01:57:48 Peter Frolish. And did he have to the best of your recollection, did he have autonomy about those targets or did he get those targets from from higher up? Um, I'm not entirely sure. I took them straight from Peter.

01:57:59 straight from Peter. Right. And uh how often did they come to you? How often did he give you these sales targets? Uh once a year and what time of the year? Um I can't remember. Sorry.

01:58:10 Um I can't remember. Sorry. But they were did they run for the calendar year or for a financial year which was different from a calendar year?

01:58:15 year? I honestly can't remember whether they were financial year or or or calendar year.

01:58:20 year. Did they come to you in writing? Were they written a written formal set of targets?

01:58:24 targets? Um,

01:58:26 Um, again I can't I couldn't answer that without I couldn't answer that. Sorry. I can't remember. Do you remember whether the targets worked to a calendar year end or some to

01:58:38 worked to a calendar year end or some to some other end date? They would have been over a 12-month period, but I'm not sure whether that was calendar year or or a financial year. I I can't remember. Were you

01:58:50 year. I I can't remember. Were you expected to achieve those targets in each period or or each year? Yes, that was the the aim of them to work towards those targets. Were those targets linked to a

01:59:01 Were those targets linked to a particular product for example ACM? They were my targets were for Renaabond, right? And were they linked to an amount of product or to a product uh profit

01:59:13 of product or to a product uh profit generated? No, it would have been um square meters volume.

01:59:17 volume. Right. So they weren't financial targets, they were volume. They were volume targets. And when you say they were for you, that means they were volume for the UK targets.

01:59:27 targets. Volume for the UK targets. Yes. Did you receive a bonus for meeting or exceeding that target in any year? No.

01:59:36 No. Right. Was your performance review or or financial uh benefit at all linked to whether you achieved those targets? No, not at all. Right. So what was the purpose of those

01:59:49 Right. So what was the purpose of those targets as far as you were concerned? For ren for Alcoa to grow renaibond in the UK in terms of market growth, right?

01:59:59 right? And what would was there a an occasion on which you failed to meet the target you were set by Mr. Frillley for a particular period? Um we we sometimes met those targets but

02:00:12 Um we we sometimes met those targets but not not certainly in the early days of me joining we weren't meeting those targets.

02:00:17 targets. What were the consequences of not meeting those targets on those occasions? Um there were no consequences in terms of in that in that sense none.

02:00:30 Um can we just um go back to the email we were looking at a moment ago at ME30's 53161 page 23 please. Um you you

02:00:41 ME30's 53161 page 23 please. Um you you list there a number of projects and you can see the first three there that are very you you describe as being very close to being one or waiting for orders to be placed and they're examples and

02:00:54 to be placed and they're examples and you say Whan's house 12,000 odd square meters

02:00:58 meters Swansea Towers 11,000 Pendleton's 35,000 square meters uh and there's also if you look a little bit lower down Brook House 6500 meters waiting for

02:01:09 Brook House 6500 meters waiting for orders to be placed placed. Um was in each case was the rea you were hoping to get orders for or had in part got orders for um standard PE?

02:01:22 got orders for um standard PE? Um a lot of them would were yes I can't remember individually but yes them a lot of them were PE. Do you remember whether at the time you knew in the case of each

02:01:33 at the time you knew in the case of each of the products I've just identified what insulation was being used alongside the raincreen that you were selling? No, I was not involved in any form of

02:01:44 No, I was not involved in any form of installation right

02:01:46 right with any project. I see. Now you'll also see uh going back to that email that uh if we could just go back to that there's a second list

02:01:57 go back to that there's a second list just below the long list halfway down the email you say projects I am still working on but confident we will get them are Granfell Towers 3,000 square meters specified RB waiting for final

02:02:08 meters specified RB waiting for final color approval orders expected Q4. Um am I right to think that you were selling to a number of big cladding projects um simultaneously at any one time?

02:02:20 time? Uh yes, talking to various different fabricators about projects they were working on. Yes. And as we can see from the list above this, you had orders for 35,000 square meters,

02:02:31 meters, 12,000 square meters and possibly 11,000 square meters. In the context of projects like that, is it right that Grenfell Tower was quite a small project

02:02:42 Grenfell Tower was quite a small project with 3,000 meters? It I wouldn't say it was small. It was it was part of the work that I was doing on a day-to-day basis. Right.

02:02:54 Right. Would you say that comparatively speaking, well, let me ask it differently. How comparatively speaking, how important was the Granfell Tower project to you at this time, mid 2014,

02:03:08 project to you at this time, mid 2014, for meeting your sales forecast which applied for that period? I couldn't possibly I couldn't possibly give an answer to that. I'm sorry. I I can't remember what how far off I was I

02:03:20 can't remember what how far off I was I would have been from those targets at that point. Now, there was a team in Arconic called the technical sales support team, wasn't there? Yes. Yes. And am I right in thinking that

02:03:31 Yes. And am I right in thinking that Claude Verle was the most senior person in that team? Yes, he was. Have I got his Have I pronounced his name correctly? Probably better than I can. Now, that team pro provided technical

02:03:43 Now, that team pro provided technical support for sales, didn't they? Yes, they did. And uh and we've understood that um Claude Bell's role would include getting technical certification relevant to each region. Is that correct?

02:03:55 region. Is that correct? Yes.

02:03:57 Yes. uh

02:03:59 uh and and was your understanding that if a region's sales would be assisted by a certification of technical performance um Mr. Verle's team would make the

02:04:10 um Mr. Verle's team would make the arrangements to obtain that certification. Yes, they they were in charge of those aspects.

02:04:16 aspects. And I understand that the technical sales support team could answer customer questions about products. Is is that right?

02:04:23 right? That's right. And and when would you routinely refer a question to the technical sales support team? If a customer fabricator directly asks me a question, I would then forward that

02:04:35 me a question, I would then forward that to the the uh to Claude's team and ask for them for a response or speak to them on the phone, but mostly by email. Would you ever answer such questions yourself?

02:04:47 yourself? Um generally not. No, not unless I'd had some information from the the team first of all.

02:04:54 of all. I see. Um, what sort of questions might you be able to answer? Uh, I could deal with um simple questions like the colors, availabilities,

02:05:05 availabilities, widths of materials that we were producing. Um but in terms of things like you know wind loads um other technical more technical details then I

02:05:17 technical more technical details then I would refer that to to that team. Is it right that uh Claude Vera reported to the director of sales and marketing at least while you were in post at

02:05:28 at least while you were in post at Aronic?

02:05:29 Aronic? I believe so. Yes. And does that mean that he reported to the same person as Peter Frolic? Yes I believe so. Was the technical sales support team considered a to be a

02:05:41 sales support team considered a to be a function of marketing? So there to support sales. They did have interaction with the marketing team to develop information that went into marketing tools.

02:05:55 that went into marketing tools. Uh yes, but my my my question was slightly different one. Was it function? Was was the technical sales support team's function to support marketing?

02:06:07 team's function to support marketing? I don't know. I'm not I'm not sure about specifically that question. There was a se separate technical team at Merkheim, wasn't there, that worked on the products. Yes.

02:06:19 Yes. And for example, research and development, new core recipes, etc. Is that

02:06:24 that That's right. I see. So where did the technical sales support team sit between the technical team at Merksheim on the one hand and you as the customerf facing sales

02:06:36 you as the customerf facing sales representative on the other generally it all went through Claude's team the customer sales technical team right it do you remember that there was

02:06:49 right it do you remember that there was also a team based at Merkshheim called the inside sales team yes I do

02:06:55 yes I do what was the nature of your dealings with the inside sales team. Uh they would basically act as a a sort of inside administrator for um work that

02:07:06 of inside administrator for um work that I was doing with customers in the UK and they then did the same thing with other countries. And when you say um an inside administrator, what do you mean? What was their function? So they would

02:07:18 was their function? So they would organize samples, they would deal with correspondence, they would take orders, they would process orders, leaz with customers on deliveries. Um, if I phoned

02:07:30 customers on deliveries. Um, if I phoned and asked for something, they would they would generally action it and deal with it directly with the fabricator. I see. And am I right in thinking that your main contact within the inside

02:07:42 your main contact within the inside sales team was Gwen Darren Denj? That's right. And again, I'm not sure that I pronounced her name correctly. Darren D.

02:07:51 Darren D. Yes, that's right. And is it right that if she wasn't available, you would sometimes deal with Marie Claude Jordan? Yes, that's right. Now, um, Gwen Dan says that her role was largely supporting the sales activities

02:08:04 largely supporting the sales activities of sales representatives. Is she right about that? Yes, she she acted as a as a backup for us. And did that involve did her role involve supplying marketing literature

02:08:16 involve supplying marketing literature and responding to non-technical queries? Yes, I believe so. And also confirming orders. Yes.

02:08:24 Yes. And and and and she says in her evidence that she was responsible for supporting rea sales in the UK and other regions between 2013 and 2016. Is that your

02:08:36 between 2013 and 2016. Is that your recollection? Is she right about that? Yes, it is. I want to turn some to ask you about products

02:08:44 products um and just clarify what products are conic sold. Um first of all reo bond. Now when we talk about reoond ACM uh we mean a product made of two metal sheets with a core of a material. It is that in

02:08:58 with a core of a material. It is that in general very general terms your understanding that's right and for ACM is it right that the sheet is aluminium but could be um it could also be zinc or stainless steel or

02:09:10 also be zinc or stainless steel or copper. There were other versions of those.

02:09:13 those. Yes, there were. They wouldn't be ACM. They might be ZCM. That's right. Now you explain in your your statements and there's no need to go to them that that there were various options for reo bond and I'll summarize

02:09:24 options for reo bond and I'll summarize them and see if we can agree. Um is it right some ACM was used for signage and internal linings? That's right. And there was a product called Reno Bond 22 made up of two 0.2 mm thick aluminum

02:09:40 22 made up of two 0.2 mm thick aluminum sheets bonded on either side of a core. Is that right? Yes.

02:09:44 Yes. Yes. Uh, and then Renobon 33, which had 0.3 mm thick aluminium sheets bonded to a core.

02:09:52 a core. That's right. That's right. Now, is it right that neither of those products, Renobon 22 or Rainobon 33 were used for use on the external part of the building?

02:10:03 external part of the building? No, they weren't used for any form of architectural application. Right. And then you when you say architectural application, you mean um rain? Yes.

02:10:16 rain? Yes. And uh they were for signage or internal linings, weren't they? Or perhaps corporate identity? Yes, that's right. Yes. Now, in your second statement, I think you say you didn't sell those products ever. Is that is that correct?

02:10:29 products ever. Is that is that correct? Yes. I didn't I didn't sell those directly. There were other people doing that.

02:10:32 that. No. No. Did you represent those products and not sell them or was it just not your they just weren't in your um the ambit of your role? No, I just didn't get involved with them. I would hand them over to other

02:10:44 them. I would hand them over to other people to deal with. Right. Uh so you were really involved in um Reo Bond for architectural purposes. Yes.

02:10:54 Yes. I see. So from now on having clarified that when I talk about Reo Bond I'm going to mean the architectural product unless unless I say otherwise or you correct me. Um now now Reo bond for

02:11:08 correct me. Um now now Reo bond for architectural use. Is this right? was referred to as Reno bond or RB55. Yes.

02:11:15 Yes. And am I right? That was made up of two 0.5 millimeter thick aluminium sheets bonded to a core. Yes.

02:11:23 Yes. And the total thickness of of Reno 55 was variable. Am I right? It came in 3mime, 4 millimeter and 5 millimeter, sorry, six millimeter cores. Yes.

02:11:34 Yes. Including the core. Um now you say in your evidence that the standard thickness for external use on buildings was four millimeters including both sheets and the core. Yes.

02:11:46 Yes. And and the way that that was recorded internally was RB 554. That's right. And um so if the panel um

02:11:57 That's right. And um so if the panel um our panel here sees that it sees the expression RB55 4 in any document, am I right that that means Reno bond ACM with a half millimeter thick aluminum uh skin and an

02:12:09 millimeter thick aluminum uh skin and an overall thickness including the core of 4 mm?

02:12:13 4 mm? Yes.

02:12:14 Yes. Now as I understand it, is this right? There may have been a difference in the choices of coating. Um various documents that we've seen suggest that there were two kinds of coating. PVDF

02:12:25 two kinds of coating. PVDF on the one hand and Jurogloss 5000 on the other. Is that right? Yes.

02:12:30 Yes. And is it right that PVDF stands for polyvinyladine fluoride

02:12:36 fluoride or do you not is that you would have to look up as I did? No, I wouldn't. Yes, I wouldn't be able to confirm that. Right. Um is it a me? Do you know whether it was a membrane came in

02:12:47 whether it was a membrane came in membrane form? No, I believe it was a it was paint. It was paint. Um, would it be possible for customers to order Raino Bond in either coating, either PVDF or Durogloss 5000?

02:13:01 coating, either PVDF or Durogloss 5000? Yes, they could. They could. Now, turning to the cores available for Raino bonds. Um, is it right a customer could either get a PE core or an FR core?

02:13:14 core or an FR core? That's right. core. And as I understand it, the PE core was 100% thermoplastic, whereas FR was 70% mineral and 30% plastic. Is that right?

02:13:27 plastic. Is that right? Yes, I believe so. And would you refer to the PE core as standard?

02:13:33 standard? Yes.

02:13:35 Yes. And FR stood for fire retardant? Yes,

02:13:38 Yes, that's right. Can we look at your second witness statement, please? Page seven. That's me 3053162 page seven. And I'd like to look with you if I can please at paragraph 27.

02:13:50 you if I can please at paragraph 27. Now we we may come back to this paragraph later but just for now I want to look at the last two sentences. Um, you say there since my departure from Aronic, I understand that it has

02:14:01 from Aronic, I understand that it has introduced into its range a third core type A2. There may have been versions of an A2 radio bond product available towards the end of my time at Aronic, but I never sold it. Now, A2 A2 core, is

02:14:15 but I never sold it. Now, A2 A2 core, is this right? Is 90% mineral wool and 10% plastic.

02:14:20 plastic. I'm not sure of what the the core was made up of. I just knew that they were looking at a different variety. Right. Uh maybe that's something we need to pursue with Mr. Mr. Schmidt since

02:14:31 to pursue with Mr. Mr. Schmidt since that's something he appears to have said in his statement paragraph 17. But you can't confirm that. No, I can't. Sorry. We may come back to A2 A2 call later to see what further help you can give on that. Can I then turn to zinc?

02:14:44 that. Can I then turn to zinc? There was also um a a product um which had a zinc skin but a and a composite with a a composite core. Is that right? Yes, that's right.

02:14:55 Yes, that's right. Did you refer to that as ZCM? Yes.

02:14:58 Yes. Composite material. Can we look at Claude Schmidt's exhibit 10, please? And go to uh this is at ME30 53157

02:15:10 uh page 319.

02:15:14 And uh it's a document you uh may or may not have seen before, but let let me show it to you. It's a technical data sheet for zinc composite panel. And if

02:15:25 sheet for zinc composite panel. And if we uh just look at that page, um Miss French, can you confirm that this is a document you've seen before or you're familiar with? Yes, I am.

02:15:36 Yes, I am. Can we go please to page 320? Uh, and at the very bottom up the side, and I'm afraid this is the case with quite a lot of iconic documents, right at the very bottom next to um Alcoa

02:15:49 at the very bottom next to um Alcoa Architectural Products, you'll see a um a date um

02:15:53 a date um in um vertical, do you see? And it says '08 2014.

02:16:00 '08 2014. Yes.

02:16:00 Yes. Yes. Um so I c can we confidently date this document to August 2014, do you think?

02:16:09 think? Um, I wouldn't be able to say either way if that's what it's saying on there. Right. But from your experience of dealing with documents such as this where we see a date like that, can we can we be confident that that's the date

02:16:21 can we be confident that that's the date it was produced? I would say so. Yes. Right. Now, if we go back to page 319, please,

02:16:29 please, you can see under uh main features underneath the six colors at the top. If we could blow up the paragraph that says main features, it says um uh two pre-weathered zinc skins bonded

02:16:41 uh two pre-weathered zinc skins bonded to a thermoplastic fire retardant core material.

02:16:46 material. And then under application, you see it says uh that it's a composite material. And underneath that, a little bit to the right, you can see that

02:16:57 bit to the right, you can see that there's a um an exploded version of or picked diagram of the material itself with a pre-weathered uh pair of zinc

02:17:08 with a pre-weathered uh pair of zinc sheets on the exterior with an FR core in the middle. You see that? Yes.

02:17:12 Yes. Now, you say in your statement that that stainless steel, copper, and zinc had to be supplied only with FR core. That is that right? Yes.

02:17:22 Yes. understanding. Is that confirmed by this data sheet? Yes.

02:17:27 Yes. And now before this data sheet, before 2014, was that also the case? Namely, that ZCM only ever came with FR core? Yes.

02:17:37 Yes. I see. Do you know why ZCM zinc composite material could only be supplied with an FR core? I don't. No. Did you ever ask? Um, I I possibly did. I I can't remember

02:17:50 Um, I I possibly did. I I can't remember whether I I did or not. Did you ever wonder to yourself why it was that ACM could come with a a fully PE core without any fire rety in it? But

02:18:01 PE core without any fire rety in it? But but ZCM only ever came with an FR core. Did you ever wonder about that? To be honest with it, it would would down to some of the technical teams to decide those those items.

02:18:14 decide those those items. Can we go to your first witness statement, please, at page two? And I'd like to look in that with you at paragraph 7. And you say there just wait for it to come up. Paragraph

02:18:26 just wait for it to come up. Paragraph seven towards the bottom of the page. You say, "By the time I was discussing the Grenfell project, there was an established trend that architects or designers of buildings were increasingly

02:18:37 designers of buildings were increasingly looking for exterior material that had a natural look. and therefore natural materials such as ZCM and SSCM mentioned in paragraph three above became much more in demand. I understood that

02:18:49 more in demand. I understood that Arconics sourced its supplies of zinc for its RB rain zm from Unicor Building Products. Although Unicor had its own natural material range which it marketed as solid zinc panel. Arconics Rainobond

02:19:03 as solid zinc panel. Arconics Rainobond ACM range included zinc appearance or finish typically described as a zinc pattern ACM. However, as a result of the arrangements agreement between Arconic and UMIOR, uh if I received an inquiry for any zinc

02:19:15 uh if I received an inquiry for any zinc finish or a finish having the appearance of zinc, I was required to promote the RBZCM product and not the zinc patina ACM.

02:19:22 ACM. Now, I've read that all to you. Some questions follow. Was the was the Reno bond zinc patina in fact an aluminium product finished to look like zinc?

02:19:33 product finished to look like zinc? The ZCM was a natural zinc skin and then there was an ACM which was an aluminium skin to made painted to look like zinc. Right. Is is it right that you were

02:19:44 Right. Is is it right that you were instructed to promote ZCM i.e. real zinc if a zinc or zinc look was requested? Yes.

02:19:52 Yes. So does it follow is this right that if ZCM was chosen then the fabric would have to have an FR core? Yes. If it was ZCM. Yes. Yes, if it was ZCM. Yes. But but if

02:20:04 Yes. Yes, if it was ZCM. Yes. But but if zinc pattern ACM was chosen, then the fabric could have either an FR core or a PE core. Is that right? Right. Yes. Yes. Or even I suppose an A2 core once

02:20:15 Yes. Or even I suppose an A2 core once it became available later. That would have been for them to decide at the time. Yes. Now in what circumstances do you do you remember would your customers be offered the choice between ZCM which

02:20:26 offered the choice between ZCM which would come with an FR core or zinc pattern ACM which could come with either.

02:20:33 either. As I say I wasn't allowed after the deal had been done with UMOR I wasn't allowed to actively promote the ACM zinc lookalike. So the majority of what we

02:20:44 lookalike. So the majority of what we were offering was ZCM. But anywhere the customer asked for real zinc

02:20:50 zinc that yes if they if they wanted a zinc look alike I would have to offer the natural zinc. Right. I see. That would have been the only thing that they would have been able to have. In what circumstances would zinc pattern

02:21:02 In what circumstances would zinc pattern AC then get to be sold? It was sold early when I first joined we were selling it and then once the development of natural zinc and the

02:21:13 development of natural zinc and the arrangement with um had been done then we weren't we were actively discouraged in selling the natur the ACM zinc lookalike

02:21:24 lookalike when you were selling zinc lookalike ACM uh would the customers usually be offered usually be offered a choice between FR and PE cores? They would have they would have it would

02:21:35 They would have they would have it would have been a standard core and that's in the way that they would have ordered any other rena bond ACM. Do you remember when the arrangement uh with um was entered into so that if a

02:21:48 with um was entered into so that if a customer asked for zinc lookalike you would have to sell them or or zinc look you would have to sell them zinc as opposed to patina.

02:21:59 I couldn't answer that absolutely um with with clarity. I couldn't answer exactly when that that change was made, but it was it would have been likely a

02:22:11 but it was it would have been likely a few couple of years into my time with with Merkin, but I honestly couldn't answer that. I can't remember. Right.

02:22:19 Right. I see. So before long before your involvement in the Gfield Tower project then

02:22:24 then again I I honestly can't remember. I I I want to answer these questions, but I can't I honestly couldn't I couldn't answer that right

02:22:32 right with proparity. Okay. Well, we'll come back to to to the zinc question later on. Could Raina Lux be coated in the zinc pattern of color? Um I believe so.

02:22:45 Um I believe so. So, is it right? Could Raina Lux be sold as a zinc look product that have no core?

02:22:52 core? I believe I Yes, I would. I believe so. Yes. Yes. So if somebody said, "I want a panel um with a zinc look," would you then tell Robert Campbell that somebody had asked for for something um that he

02:23:04 had asked for for something um that he might be able to supply, namely Reno Lux?

02:23:08 Lux? Um if if it was necess if it was relevant for what the what they wanted to do with it, then yes, I would. Right. And and could Rainolux be used as a rain screen panel?

02:23:20 a rain screen panel? Uh not very often. It generally wasn't thick enough. There were occasions it was done in in that thickness, but it's not very often. Right. And what why is that? I believe it's not thick enough for for

02:23:33 I believe it's not thick enough for for what they need to do with the panels. Right. So, what I'm so sorry, but that that's not an area that I that would automatically go to other people who are designing the the external

02:23:44 who are designing the the external facades, but I don't know. Now, I want to look at the next question, which is fabrication. Um, can we look at your second witness statement, please, at page eight

02:23:57 statement, please, at page eight and I'd like to go to paragraph 29

02:24:03 and also 30 in fact. Um, now these are two quite long paragraphs. So, I'd like just to read them out so that everybody can see and hear what you're saying. You say at 29, it's important to note that

02:24:16 say at 29, it's important to note that Renobond was supplied as flat sheets of raw material alone. It serves no purpose and it must be cut and or fabricated by specialist fabricators and then combined with many other components in order to

02:24:28 with many other components in order to have any utility. Our our colleague's customers were either specialist fabricators who would cut and fabricate the reobond or installers who would have the renobond fabricated and then they use it as part of a raincreen cladding

02:24:40 use it as part of a raincreen cladding system. And then you say in paragraph 30, for the purpose of facades, Rainobond was most often used by customers to create either rivet or cassette raincreen cladding systems. For

02:24:51 cassette raincreen cladding systems. For a rivet system, the rea sheets would be cut to the appropriate size by a fabricator and then screwed flat into the raincreen cladding system. With a cassette system, the Reno bond would be

02:25:02 cassette system, the Reno bond would be formed by a fabricator into hollow cassettes that would hang from the face of the raincreen cladding system. The cassette system would be more expensive for the end user because it required more work on the part of a fabricator.

02:25:15 more work on the part of a fabricator. However, how the rear bond was to be used by a fabricator was not relevant to Arconics to Arconic in terms of pricing or sale because Arconics simply supplied sheets of Rainond product. It did not

02:25:26 sheets of Rainond product. It did not specify manufacture or sell rivet or cassette raincreen cladding systems. Now um you say there that among other things that that Aronic only sells the

02:25:38 things that that Aronic only sells the flat material which must then be fabricated by a fabricator for example C.

02:25:43 C. Uh and I'm right C was is an example of such a fabricator. Yes.

02:25:50 Yes. And you say the mode of fixing rivet or cassette isn't relevant to the pricing of reo bonds. Uh c can we go to Claude Vela's statement

02:26:02 c can we go to Claude Vela's statement please at page seven.

02:26:07 Uh and I want to look with you at what he says in paragraph 26. I'm sorry it's me 3053190 page seven.

02:26:21 me 3053190 page seven paragraph 26 and just five lines up from the bottom of that paragraph he says during my time at Aronic and speaking in general terms

02:26:33 Aronic and speaking in general terms based on my limited understanding of how customers fabricate the product the proportion of cassettes to rivet type products has diminished substantially in Europe in the UK I understand that architects and planners had a preference

02:26:45 architects and planners had a preference for cassettes on visual immunity grounds for higher value product projects Do you agree with Claude Vela there that the UK preferred cassette fix ACM

02:26:57 the UK preferred cassette fix ACM because it was I'm summarizing aesthetically pleasing more aesthetically pleasing. I would say the work that as we were doing as in uh Alcoa um iconic in the UK

02:27:11 doing as in uh Alcoa um iconic in the UK was more cassette than uh than rivet. So that was your experience that that architects and planners had a preference for cassettes on aesthetic grounds.

02:27:22 for cassettes on aesthetic grounds. Yes.

02:27:24 Yes. Now even though you said it isn't relevant for pricing purposes, is it fair to say that you would generally know how the fixing uh was proposed for the projects in respect of which you were selling rain on?

02:27:36 were selling rain on? Not in all cases. No. um that would have been um down to the fabricator and the cladding installer would have had a lot of that detail.

02:27:47 of that detail. Right. You say not in all cases. I'm suggesting to you that in general in the general run of cases you would know. Is that wrong? Yes.

02:27:55 Yes. You would. Yes. In in general some Yes. Sometimes I would know that if it was cassette but not all not in all cases. No. Understand? Um, now in in in the supply

02:28:07 Understand? Um, now in in in the supply case of the supply to Granville Tower to that project, you you in fact had quite a lot of knowledge about what fixing would be used, didn't you? Yes.

02:28:16 Yes. Yes. And we'll come to look at that in detail later on in your evidence. Um, can I then turn to your background and training? I want to um ask you first about your work history. Uh, and you say

02:28:27 about your work history. Uh, and you say at paragraph six of your second statement on page two, second statement, page two, paragraph six, please. You say,

02:28:38 "Prior to commencing work at Aronic, I worked for a small metal distribution company, NB Metals Limited, based in Welling Garden City, as a sales representative selling aluminium

02:28:49 representative selling aluminium extrusions to engineering companies and steel tool businesses. It was in this role for approximately two years between 2005 and 2007. Prior to this, I worked for six months at Franklin CVY selling

02:29:01 for six months at Franklin CVY selling management and leadership training packages. Before that, I worked for Tissson Crook for approximately eight years, again selling aluminium extrusions. My first job after leaving school in 1983 was working for AllCam,

02:29:14 school in 1983 was working for AllCam, initially as an administrative assistant, but later as a sales representative selling aluminium extrusions and sheets to engineers and fabricators. I do not have any formal relevant qualifications in relation to

02:29:25 relevant qualifications in relation to the role I had at Aronic and was not required by iconic to obtain any such qualifications. So in chronological order um see if we could summarize that you left school and

02:29:36 could summarize that you left school and worked for Alcan and then became a sales representative selling aluminium extrusions and sheets. Yes, that's right. And then you worked for Tiss Franklin Cubby and then at Welling Garden City.

02:29:49 Cubby and then at Welling Garden City. uh in each case in sales. Yes.

02:29:53 Yes. So is it right that you've been in sales for practically your entire career? Yes.

02:29:58 Yes. Yes. A and say for a few months I think which you identify you I think have always worked selling aluminium products to the construction industry. That's right. Yes. Now you say you've got no formal

02:30:10 Yes. Now you say you've got no formal not sorry not to the construction industry. I've sold aluminium products but not to the construction industry. To to whom would you sell them? They were to general engineers um and to to

02:30:22 were to general engineers um and to to steel companies, right?

02:30:23 right? So ju just general engineers making widgets and bits and pieces like that and tool steel companies. Okay. Now, um would you agree that when you joined our comic in 2007, you had

02:30:35 you joined our comic in 2007, you had extensive experience in that industry, the industries you've just identified, selling aluminium products in in those industries? Yes. Yes. And given that you were selling or had

02:30:47 And given that you were selling or had sold aluminium products for many years before joining our comic, did you have any familiarity with fabricators?

02:30:56 Not the fabricators that we're current we would I was working with then. No, completely different. I see. What about familiarity with designers working in the construction industry? Do you have any of that? You

02:31:07 industry? Do you have any of that? You didn't?

02:31:07 didn't? None whatsoever. Um, when you arrived Well, let me let me show you your statement. Um, paragraph seven of your second witness statement on page two, please.

02:31:21 I just want to ask you about uh what happened when you arrived at our colleague. You say in paragraph 7, "My role at our colleague was the first time that I'd worked with raincreen cladding faces. There was a short period of

02:31:33 faces. There was a short period of crossover with my predecessor in the role, Colin Southgate, but he had effectively retired by the time I started. I received some contact details and customer files from Colin, but nothing else. Shortly after starting

02:31:45 nothing else. Shortly after starting with Arconic, I spent a week at Aronic's site in Merkheim, France, where I met various people and learned about the product produced by Aronic. Now, do I understand correctly from this

02:31:56 Now, do I understand correctly from this that you didn't in fact have a handover from Colin Southgate? No, I didn't. Did he give you any information about the products that you were to represent? No, I didn't get any.

02:32:08 No, I didn't get any. Did do you did he give you any information about the literature that you could use to promote the products that you were to represent? I didn't have any literature from him, just some customer files.

02:32:19 just some customer files. Did you have a conversation with him about the fire safety of the products that you were to represent? No, nothing. Any discussion about fire classification in relation? No, nothing.

02:32:32 when you arrived, did did you did anybody ever uh give you a technical introduction to your to the products that you were to sell?

02:32:44 products that you were to sell? I had an overview of the products, but I wouldn't say that I had an in-depth technical overview. No. Right. Well, let's look at your second statement, please, at page four.

02:32:56 statement, please, at page four. You deal with the induction that you experienced when you started at our comic. It's at page for paragraph 15 please.

02:33:05 please. And this is under the heading training on Reoond products. You say, "When I started at Aronic, I attended an induction in Merkheim which included training on every aspect of sales at

02:33:16 training on every aspect of sales at Aronic. This included understanding how the products were manufactured, in which colors, finishes, and types the products could be made available, how the sales process worked, what marketing materials were available and so on. On the

02:33:28 were available and so on. On the technical side, I believe that Claude Valle explained what the Raymon product was and how it might be used by customers. This is likely to have included a section on the technical aspects of the

02:33:40 section on the technical aspects of the products and certifications, but I do not remember the details. At some point during my employment, Claude explained that customers in the UK might be interested in receiving a copy of the certificate issued by the British Board

02:33:52 certificate issued by the British Board of Agre BBA relating to the Rainabond product. I do not remember when this was. As far as I can recall, this was the first time that I had ever heard of the BBA or the certificates that it

02:34:04 the BBA or the certificates that it issues. In any event, the BBA certificate was the only document that most of our conics customers in the UK ever specifically asked for. Now, you started working, as you told

02:34:16 Now, you started working, as you told us, I think in in for Aronic in October 2007. How soon after you started did you go to Merks for the the week of training you've identified?

02:34:27 you've identified? uh it was within the first four to six weeks.

02:34:32 weeks. And do I understand from paragraph 15 that I've just read to you that there was a strong focus on sales in that training session? Yes, there was. Did Claude Villa explain

02:34:45 Did Claude Villa explain um the the BBA certificate for Rainabond PE55?

02:34:51 PE55? I don't remember specifically um what exactly what was covered in that training.

02:34:58 training. Right. I mean to be fair to you the the BBA certificate at at the time was in the process of being drafted in the last quarter of 2007. Do you remember any

02:35:09 quarter of 2007. Do you remember any discussion at that time either at this sales induction meeting or or later about the process or about the of creating the BBA certificate?

02:35:20 creating the BBA certificate? I honestly can't remember. It's such a long time ago.

02:35:25 Did Did he mention the BBA certificate at all during his during the training session?

02:35:31 session? I I I honestly can't remember. Now, let's look and see what he says about the training. Can we look at his witness statement? That's ME3053190, please. Um, paragraph 124 on page 36.

02:35:48 He says, I have been asked al I've been also asked to confirm whether Arconic provides training to its staff and contractors in relation to the technical

02:36:00 contractors in relation to the technical performance of its products, including in respect to fire performance. In relation to iconic employees and external sales teams, this training occurs in different forms but includes information on technical matters being

02:36:11 information on technical matters being provided to relevant employees as part of their onboarding process. This is usually at least half a day a half day session and the content will depend upon the particular role of the employee. For

02:36:22 the particular role of the employee. For example, if they were responsible for sales into France, there may be a greater focus on French related technical certifications. Now, do you agree with what he said there?

02:36:33 there? Uh yes, the the the bones of what he's saying. Yes. Now, you told us that you had no previous background when you joined our comic uh with cladding rainscreen

02:36:44 comic uh with cladding rainscreen systems. That's right, isn't it? That's right. Were you given any additional support to fill the gaps in your knowledge and experience? No.

02:36:54 No. So, you had to work you had to educate yourself on the job as it were. Is that is that fair in? Yes, it was. Did anybody give you a focus on UK

02:37:05 Did anybody give you a focus on UK related technical certifications? I don't remember any specifics on uh UK regulations. Right.

02:37:17 Right. You say you don't remember any? Do you mean you don't you I don't remember receiving any. Right.

02:37:24 Right. Uh

02:37:26 Uh can we look at here? going to go back to Claude's Schmidt's witness statement at paragraph 17. I'm sorry, sorry, paragraph 52 at page 17. Then just want to put what he says at paragraph 52.

02:37:39 to put what he says at paragraph 52. Page 17 of that same document in the light of your answer just now. Um in page 17, paragraph 52,

02:37:49 um he says,

02:37:54 and I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. That's I mean, Claude Schmidt's witness statement. Me, can I I'm in the wrong statement. It's my fault. Um, I'd like to go to ME3053187,

02:38:05 to go to ME3053187, please,

02:38:08 please, page 17, paragraph 52.

02:38:15 Uh, and uh, he says there training would also be provided for new sales team members. This would be carried out by Claude Vela his team and they would

02:38:26 Claude Vela his team and they would spend time explaining the fire certifications held and what would need to be provided to sell product in the particular country in a particular country. Um do you agree that you had some training on what fire performance

02:38:38 some training on what fire performance was required to sell Renault bond into the UK market? I remember having training on the product but I don't specifically remember receiving fire training on it. No.

02:38:48 No. Right. So when uh Mr. Schmidt says uh that Claude Vera's team would spend time explaining the fire certifications held and what need to be provided to sell the product in the UK. You didn't get any

02:39:01 product in the UK. You didn't get any training on fire certifications. I don't I don't remember having any specific training for the UK. Right.

02:39:10 Um can we then turn to what you did know about selling to the UK market? And I want to ask you about your understanding of the product and sales to the UK. Um

02:39:22 of the product and sales to the UK. Um and I start I'll start I think with PE sales into the UK. Um is it right that at some point quite early on you came to learn that for reabon 55 there were

02:39:33 learn that for reabon 55 there were different calls available PE and FR? Yes.

02:39:39 Yes. And specifically did you understand that the difference between PE and FR was to do with fire performance? Yes, I did. Can we go back to your second witness

02:39:50 Can we go back to your second witness statement

02:39:51 statement of page seven, please? I'd like to look at paragraph 27

02:40:02 and uh four lines down in paragraph 27 you say unless a customer specifically requested an FR core then I would price a job on the basis of PE which was at

02:40:14 a job on the basis of PE which was at the time the standard version of ACM panels requested by customers in the UK market.

02:40:21 market. And if we go over the page to paragraph 32,

02:40:25 32, you continue on the same theme.

02:40:32 At the bottom of the page, you say, "During my time at Aronic, it was rare for a customer in the UK to order Rainobond FR. Indeed, I cannot remember a specific occasion on which I sold FR,

02:40:43 a specific occasion on which I sold FR, although I cannot say for certain that it never happened. In other markets such as Germany, I understood from iconic sales representatives in the German market that it was much more usual for customers to order FR. I do not know the

02:40:56 customers to order FR. I do not know the reason for this, but I assume it related to the respective the respective regulatory regimes. Now, just pausing there, I'm going to come back to the rest of that paragraph in a moment if I

02:41:07 rest of that paragraph in a moment if I may, but just pausing there. Can we just look and see what others at Aronic have to say about selling PE into the UK market? see if you agree. Can we start with Claude Vera's statement

02:41:20 with Claude Vera's statement 3053190

02:41:22 3053190 please at paragraph 29 page 8

02:41:30 he says uh uh there on page 8 paragraph 29

02:41:37 29 uh in the third line he says I was not aware

02:41:41 aware before the Glenfell Tower fire that the UK remained as a predominant PE market up to and including 2017. I had no specific knowledge of the UK market. He

02:41:53 specific knowledge of the UK market. He says

02:41:55 says um now

02:41:58 um now can we look at Claude Schmidt's statement

02:42:01 statement which we've just been looking at ME3053187.

02:42:08 This is his second statement paragraph 36 on page 13.

02:42:19 I'm going to show you what each of these witnesses say about the UK market. This is Claude Schmidt page 13 par 36. He says the figures referred to above which are sales figures are for sales of

02:42:30 are sales figures are for sales of reabon PE as in that period that was what the UK market demanded. So he says that then if we go to Peter Freric's statement ME30's 53197

02:42:43 Freric's statement ME30's 53197 page 9 paragraph 34

02:42:49 he says

02:42:53 uh at at the bottom of that paragraph at that time of the Grenfell Tower project based on my experience and market knowledge I believe that the UK was generally a PE market in that most projects requested PE. E. So that's what

02:43:06 projects requested PE. E. So that's what Peter Frolic says. And then if we finally we look at what um Gwennal Derand says, we can go to her statement. ME30 is 53191 please. Page four.

02:43:19 ME30 is 53191 please. Page four. I want just to show you what she says at paragraph 17. She says there rain bond with a PE call was ordered by and supplied to C for the Grenfell Tower refurbishment. This was

02:43:30 Grenfell Tower refurbishment. This was typical. She says this was typical for projects in the UK at the time. The UK was predominantly PE market and it was rare for a customer in the UK to order Rainabon with an FR core. I do not

02:43:42 Rainabon with an FR core. I do not remember ever specifically being uh told this. It was just always the case based on my experience. I was not in a position to challenge this for any particular project as I did not have any knowledge of the regulatory regime in

02:43:53 knowledge of the regulatory regime in the UK. Other countries such as Germany are predominantly FR markets. And if we can go to page nine please, paragraph 30.2.

02:44:04 30.2. She says there halfway down the paragraph, the system does not provide a default product specification and they are input by the relevant sales representative. Uh for

02:44:16 relevant sales representative. Uh for the UK, a primarily PE market unless FR had been requested by the customer, then any quotation would be produced using the price for a PE core. All of the product specifications, including the

02:44:27 product specifications, including the core type, were apparent on the face of the quotation sent to the customer. Now, I've shown you all of that. It's quite a lot just to keep in one's head at the same time. But it looks as if with the exception of Claude Vera,

02:44:40 if with the exception of Claude Vera, there was widespread understanding within our comic that the UK was a PE market. Is that was that your understanding? Yes, that is my understanding.

02:44:52 Yes, that is my understanding. And and is it correct that Claude Vle didn't know as he maintains as we've showed you that the UK market uh was a predominantly PE market until the fire at Granfell in 2017?

02:45:05 at Granfell in 2017? It's difficult for me to answer that question. I I don't know what he would have known or not known, but I would say that predominantly it was PE.

02:45:16 that predominantly it was PE. Are you able to explain Mr. Vera's professed ignorance of that fact? I can't I really I I I honestly can't begin to even describe, you know,

02:45:28 begin to even describe, you know, explain that. No. No.

02:45:32 No. Given where he sat in the reporting chain, can you think of any reason why he wouldn't have known, as everybody else is saying, that the UK was predominantly a PE market? I I honestly can't I I really can't help

02:45:45 I I honestly can't I I really can't help on that one. Um, do we understand it from what I've shown you that that you would automatically sell PE called ACM unless you were asked specifically for an FR

02:45:56 you were asked specifically for an FR core?

02:45:57 core? That's right.

02:46:00 Generally, did customers specifically ask for a PE core, which is what Mr. Fredick seems to suggest at paragraph 34 I've shown you, or were they mostly silent about the

02:46:11 or were they mostly silent about the core, and you would assume uh that they meant PE core unless they asked otherwise? It was ne they never generally requested a PE or an FR core. It was just the

02:46:22 a PE or an FR core. It was just the market just ordered PE core. The discussions never came up about um requiring anything other than a PE core. So do we take it from that answer that

02:46:33 So do we take it from that answer that they didn't say anything about the core and you would by default sell them PE? That's right. Yes. Do you know why the UK was predominantly

02:46:44 Do you know why the UK was predominantly as people say or generally as people say a PE market? I don't um I you know looking back now I I I don't know why it was predominantly a PE uh predominantly PE. Other

02:46:57 a PE uh predominantly PE. Other countries were predominantly PE as well um and others weren't. Um so no I I don't

02:47:04 don't What other countries do you recall were predominantly PE as well? France was took from what I can understand took a lot of PE as did um the UAE. They were

02:47:15 lot of PE as did um the UAE. They were predominantly PE as well. Right. Um now looking a little bit more closely at this question. Um,

02:47:26 closely at this question. Um, we saw in your statement at paragraph 32 that you said that you thought this was something to do with the regulatory regime in the UK that permitted PE to be

02:47:38 regime in the UK that permitted PE to be sold here, but not the regime in Germany, for example. Is that is that is that a fair summary of your evidence? That yes, that's that was my understanding. Did you know what it was

02:47:50 understanding. Did you know what it was about the UK regul that explained PE's popularity in the UK but not in Germany? No, I I just felt it was the from

02:48:02 No, I I just felt it was the from discussions and meetings at at sales meetings in Merkheim. It was uh the German market was tighter in terms of their regulations than other places.

02:48:13 their regulations than other places. Right. So you knew it was something to do with regulation. Did you ever ask what it was about regulation that meant that the UK was a predominantly PE market?

02:48:22 market? No, not specifically. Was it ever explained to you in any more detail than that? No.

02:48:30 No. Now, you've told us that you understood that the difference between PE core and FR core was to do with fire performance. And

02:48:39 And if FR was fire retardant as as it stands for, did you understand that it was safer from a fire perspect fire safety perspective?

02:48:51 perspective? Um,

02:48:54 Um, at the time I wouldn't have I wouldn't have known that. No, I mean I do now. I do to a degree now, but I I wouldn't have done at the time. No.

02:49:06 have done at the time. No. Did you understand that where it was more usual for or for customers to order uh FR such as in Germany as you've identified that was because the

02:49:17 identified that was because the regulatory regime was tighter there as regards fire safety? Yeah, I say I I I just took it that it would they got tighter restrictions there and therefore they had to do

02:49:28 there and therefore they had to do something different. And just to slightly repeat a question I put to you a moment ago. Did you ever actually ever question either yourself to yourself or with anybody uh within our conic the

02:49:40 with anybody uh within our conic the extent to which these regimes differed so as to explain the popularity of PE in the UK but not in Germany? No, I didn't. No, never never

02:49:52 No, I didn't. No, never never needed to do that. Did anybody ever tell you why they thought the PE that the UK was a PE market? No, not that I recall. No.

02:50:03 No, not that I recall. No. In what respect did you understand that restrictions in Germany, for example, were tighter than restrictions in the UK?

02:50:13 UK? Sorry, could you repeat that? In what respect did you understand that restrictions in Germany, for example, were tighter than restrictions in the UK?

02:50:22 UK? it what it there was nothing specific in terms of a single item. It was just during sales meetings that I know my uh colleagues over in Germany were

02:50:33 colleagues over in Germany were struggling to sell Renaabond because they didn't have the A2 for example. So they they got FR but they couldn't even sell that because of the regulations in Germany.

02:50:44 Germany. Right.

02:50:45 Right. Um but other than that I I didn't really question it. Do you know what the what was the advantage of PE where FR was available

02:50:57 in terms of the where why it was always being ordered in the UK? Um there are one or two there were one or two things that fabricators mentioned at the time about it being easier to to

02:51:09 the time about it being easier to to fabricate but that was that was the that was the only discussions. There was very little discussions about the differences in cause and why one would be ordered and not the other.

02:51:20 and not the other. I'm just wondering what why are sold PE at all when it could sell FR which was by definition safer from a fire safety perspective.

02:51:31 safer from a fire safety perspective. I I that's not a question that I asked. It's not not something that I would have been involved in those discussions. That would have been for Merkim. Right. Did you ever wonder or ask anybody why it was that not all

02:51:42 anybody why it was that not all customers ordered FR if it was safer regardless of the respective regulatory regimes?

02:51:48 regimes? Um I I can't remember specifically but I'm you know I possibly had conversations. I know as I say I know that certain fabricators from various countries preferred the PE because it

02:52:01 countries preferred the PE because it was easier to fabricate than an FR core. When you say easier to fabricate, can you expand in what way easier to fabricate? It was quicker. Um, it wasn't so it

02:52:14 It was quicker. Um, it wasn't so it wasn't so difficult, but that's just general comments that um that's not my own experience of that. It's just comments from other fabricators that I've heard of presumably. Is this right that the ease

02:52:25 presumably. Is this right that the ease or difficulty of fabrication as between PE and FR would apply this whether one was in Germany or Spain or or the UK? That's right. So that can't explain, can it? Why the

02:52:36 So that can't explain, can it? Why the UK was a predominantly PE market. That's I'm I don't I can't answer that. I can just say that that's some of the questions that that's some of the um

02:52:47 questions that that's some of the um responses we were getting from fabricators, but I believe that was from other places, not just the UK. Excuse me, Mr. Mlet. Mr. French, just help me with this. Can you remember whether there was a significant price

02:53:00 whether there was a significant price difference between PE and FR cause? There was a price difference between FR and PE, but um I I whether I could term it as significant, but there was

02:53:11 it as significant, but there was definitely a difference between the two. C

02:53:13 C can you recall in percentage terms roughly what it was? uh not in percentage terms but I would say somewhere around about four five

02:53:24 say somewhere around about four five euros a square meter difference per square meter. And when you heard that um it it might affect the ease of fabrication.

02:53:36 affect the ease of fabrication. Did anyone indicate that that might affect the cost of fabrication? Um no that wasn't s that wasn't suggested. Right. Yes. Thank you very much.

02:53:49 Right. Yes. Thank you very much. We'll we'll come to some of the price differentials later on in your your evidence. Um but can I just focus for a moment on on the regulatory regime? Um

02:54:00 moment on on the regulatory regime? Um we asked Mr. Blades, Jeff Blades about of C

02:54:04 of C um about why it was that um about why PE core ACM was even offered for use over 18 meters where FR was available. And I'm not going to take you to his

02:54:15 I'm not going to take you to his evidence. That's a day 41 page 44 lines 22 for to 45 at line 10. My question is can you answer that question why it is that PE core ACM was offered for use at

02:54:27 that PE core ACM was offered for use at height in other words over 18 meters where FR is available that would have been down to the other people within the chain of of the construction. Um that's not you know we

02:54:40 construction. Um that's not you know we provided a a BBA certificate I provided all the information that was needed. it would have been for other people to decide what whether that was a suitable product. Um,

02:54:51 product. Um, right on the chairman's question was the driver here in the choice price based or

02:55:01 or I I can't all I can say is that there was a difference between FR and PE. I couldn't uh I couldn't say whether that's what was driving that particular decision on on any specific project.

02:55:14 decision on on any specific project. Thank you. Now, um, as I say, we'll come back to look at some of the economics later on. Can I just then ask you about class N or class O as I think some people refer to it. Um, can we look

02:55:25 people refer to it. Um, can we look please first at ARC 50626.

02:55:32 Now, what will appear on the screen uh is a is a piece of product literature from 2005.

02:55:44 from 2005. And I'm putting that to you because if if you scroll down to the bottom of the page on page one there, uh you'll see a

02:55:55 page on page one there, uh you'll see a a date in the bottom leftand corner, status 0105. Um, just going back to the top of the document, my first question is, is this a document you recognize given that it

02:56:06 a document you recognize given that it predated your you do? Yeah.

02:56:09 Yeah. Yes. Is it a document that you would have used in your function at Aronic in the early days of your time there? Yes, I would have done.

02:56:20 Yes, I would have done. Uh, and you can see that it's it's product information about Raino Bond. Uh and you can see on page one under the description it says um that it's a

02:56:31 description it says um that it's a composite rain is a composite panel consisting of two coilcoated aluminium sheet permanently bonded to an extruded thermoplastic compound core material.

02:56:42 thermoplastic compound core material. See that?

02:56:43 See that? Yeah.

02:56:44 Yeah. And um

02:56:46 And um it it goes on below that to say that it's available in uh PE and FR. Um but just just on the initial description in the first paragraph there

02:56:59 description in the first paragraph there um there's no reference there to the fact that uh Raina Bond comes in a rivet and a cassette fixing variant is there? No.

02:57:10 No. Do you know why that is? No, I don't. If we go to page three, in the column on the right hand side, there's a um there's a column which says

02:57:22 there's a um there's a column which says it fire tests. It has a heading fire tests. And if we could have that just expanded a little bit, please you'll see that it says Great Britain Rainabond PE BS 476 unframed panels. BS 476 part 6

02:57:37 BS 476 unframed panels. BS 476 part 6 class N BS 476 part 7 class one and then Rayabond FR BS 476 part 6 classified BS 476 part 7 class one now you were

02:57:51 476 part 7 class one now you were familiar with this document as you've told us um is it a document that you provided to customers I believe I had done on a on some occasions yes

02:58:02 occasions yes on what occasions do you remember you would customary provide them to customer.

02:58:06 customer. Somebody had asked for general product information on on on renabon then I would have there was generally information that I would have sent them. uh you you can see if we just go back to

02:58:18 uh you you can see if we just go back to it uh that it only presents national classes

02:58:26 and you can see you've got the Great Britain classes there for both PE and FR in the British standards and under France you've got reabon PE classified M1

02:58:35 M1 Germany PE normal inflammable B2 etc. Do you know um well was there a document that you also had that presented Euro classes

02:58:46 classes the European classifications? Uh there there were documents that were um European documents. Yes.

02:58:58 um European documents. Yes. Is that so? At the time you were using this document. Um

02:59:04 Um sorry just explain that. Explain what you're asking me again. Yes, I will. I'll put it slightly differently. When customers ask you um a question which meant that you gave them this document showing the national

02:59:15 this document showing the national classes, did you also offer them a document showing them European classes? Um I wouldn't have normally unless they'd specifically asked me for the European documents.

02:59:29 Uh

02:59:33 if you go to page four, you'll you'll see that this document also refers to two sets

02:59:43 uh of French. This is the middle of the page on the left hand side. um under other certifications sets of French tests for Rainabond cassette

02:59:54 French tests for Rainabond cassette system uh AV technique uh uh and from CT CSTB and then for reaed system also AV technique you see those two tests um did you know that

03:00:07 those two tests um did you know that those variants cassette and riveted um were the subject of different Euro fire testing in 2005

03:00:18 um at the time. No, I wouldn't have done.

03:00:20 done. Right. Do you know why this document didn't mention that fact? No, I don't. Now, before I ask you a little bit more about that, which I will be, I want to show you another document. Can we go to

03:00:31 show you another document. Can we go to CLG60224?

03:00:34 Mr. Mill, are we about to go to a different subject? Well, I was just looking at the clock. Um, I I think in fact, uh, we we probably are. Um, it's it's as it's as

03:00:46 probably are. Um, it's it's as it's as good a time as any to stop for lunch. Yes.

03:00:50 Yes. Probably doesn't much matter whether I ask this question before lunch or after lunch.

03:00:53 lunch. Well, well, perhaps you could ask it after lunch in that case. Miss French, we would normally break now so that everyone can get some lunch. Sure, you'd like to get some lunch as well. So, we'll do that. Um, please remember not

03:01:06 we'll do that. Um, please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything related to it. And we will resume, please, at 2 o'clock. All right. Thank you, sir. Good. Thank you very much.