Bereaved, Survivors & Residents Evidence - Monday 19th April 2021 (1/2)

Full transcript

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00:19:42 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing i'm very glad that we're able to be back here at bishops bridge road

00:19:49 road in order to conduct hearings in the usual way albeit with limited attendance we're looking forward to being able to open the hearings more widely as soon as we can

00:20:00 hearings more widely as soon as we can quite when that will be will depend on government advice but we hope within the next month or two we should be back to full hearings in person

00:20:11 full hearings in person today we're going to start hearing evidence in module 3 and i think your first witness mr millett is mr chapman is that right yes mr chairman mr chapman who i would like

00:20:22 mr chairman mr chapman who i would like to call

00:20:22 to call yes thank you so could you ask mr chapman to come in please

00:20:36 good morning mr chapman now you have the affirmation on the screen could you could you read it out please yeah i do solemnly

00:20:42 solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much do sit down make yourself comfortable

00:20:56 all right yes mr millet when you're ready mr chairman thank you very much mr chairman members of the panel good morning mr chapman good morning thank you very much for

00:21:07 good morning thank you very much for coming to the inquiry today and helping us with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you if you have any difficulty understanding any of my questions or hearing any of my

00:21:18 any of my questions or hearing any of my questions

00:21:19 questions or you'd like me to put the question in a slightly different or clearer way please just say and i can do that we will take a scheduled break at 11 15 or so depending on how we're going

00:21:30 going but if you need a break at any other time again please just just let us know if you could keep your voice up as well please say that the transcriber who sits to your right can hear what you're saying and get that

00:21:42 can hear what you're saying and get that down that would be extremely helpful but also please if you don't mind avoiding shaking your head or nodding because no or yes doesn't come out on the transcript okay right thank you

00:21:53 on the transcript okay right thank you now you've given two witness statements to the inquiry and they will appear on the screen in front of you as we go to them can i just show you those so that they're in the record

00:22:04 those so that they're in the record um the phase one statement that you uh gave us is that

00:22:10 three iws40130s iws four zeroes one three zeros uh it and it's dated the 18th of may 2018 uh is that uh your

00:22:22 2018 uh is that uh your first statement to the inquiry yes uh and uh there's a second statement as well

00:22:29 well uh which is iws 401619 dated the 11th of february 2020 at iws that and there it is is that your second statement

00:22:40 statement yes that's my statement now your first statement covered all your evidence on the subject of fire safety advice and signage and the smoke control system as well didn't it uh yeah uh and uh i just want to

00:22:52 uh yeah uh and uh i just want to deal with the formalities now with this statement on your screen your second statement can you please go to page 10

00:23:03 and there you see the foot of the page a signature next to the date 11th of february

00:23:08 february 2020. can you confirm that that is your signature

00:23:11 signature yes that's my signature have you read this witness statement recently yes and can you confirm that its contents are true yes thank you now i just want to ask you a few questions

00:23:22 a few questions about your background uh uh to your living in the um in the tower you cover these paragraphs seven to nine of this statement on page two if we

00:23:34 of this statement on page two if we could just have that up please

00:23:38 and just to summarize that uh it's right isn't it that as at the 17th of june 2014 your home was flat 195 on floor 22 of grenfell tower

00:23:49 on floor 22 of grenfell tower correct and you yourself moved into that flat

00:23:52 flat 14 correct and i don't think you'd lived in grenfell tower before that date is that right no is that right no no and naomi lee who i think was and is your partner uh

00:24:06 who i think was and is your partner uh was the formal leaseholder of that flat correct yes and you lived with her yes yes now in your phase two statement you refer both to rbkc and to the tmo

00:24:18 you refer both to rbkc and to the tmo before the 14th of june 2017 what did you understand to be the respective roles of those two bodies in relation to grenfell tower so i would i understand that the

00:24:31 so i would i understand that the is essentially the landlord of the building they own the building and the tmo is responsible for maintaining and doing the necessary maintenance of the building and they essentially in my mind are as

00:24:43 and they essentially in my mind are as one

00:24:44 one responsible for looking after the building if you like between the landlord and the management company what was your understanding at that time of the relationship between rbkc on the

00:24:56 of the relationship between rbkc on the one hand

00:24:56 one hand and the tmo on the other i thought that they would be closely linked and communicate with each other

00:25:05 other did you know that the tmo was managed by a board

00:25:08 a board which included resident tenants and leaseholders among its membership no did you know that as a resident you could join the tmo board uh and become involved in its work without well

00:25:19 without well and and also to be elected to the board no you didn't know that no did nobody ever

00:25:26 ever tell you that that was something that you were eligible no i don't remember being told that right

00:25:32 right um now can we look at paragraph eight of your statement it's on the screen in front of you and you explain there that in early 2017 you became involved in the grenfell tower leaseholders association or gtla

00:25:46 tower leaseholders association or gtla and you say that that followed from your meeting shahid ahmed in the lift in the building before that encounter had you heard of gtla

00:25:57 encounter had you heard of gtla uh yes i had seen it on emails that my wife had received um from the grenfell tower leaseholder association so i knew of it but didn't necessarily know what it was

00:26:08 but didn't necessarily know what it was right so naomi lee was on the email circulation list was she for gtla correct yeah how did she come to be on that email circulation list i don't know did you ever discuss it with her no right

00:26:20 with her no right now at all events we know that you did join the gtla in early 2017 didn't you yes and then i think you became secretary in about march 2017

00:26:31 secretary in about march 2017 yes what made you want to become secretary

00:26:34 secretary um i think the fact that i had raised issues or i can make complaints and i felt that if i was involved in in a group of people

00:26:45 people um collectively maybe that might might give it some traction rather than just one person complaining right

00:26:53 right and did anybody invite you to you to become secretary or was this something you volunteered to do um i'm not entirely sure i think um char and i had had conversations about

00:27:04 conversations about my involvement in it but i'm not entirely sure of how that kind of evolved right looking at paragraph eight in this statement

00:27:14 statement you say halfway down i had been complaining about certain issues on an individual basis and felt that joining them would be a more effective way of escalating complaints because there would be a higher

00:27:25 there would be a higher a high number of people complaining together about the same issues and what led you to think at the time that there would be a high number of people complaining together about the same issues

00:27:37 about the same issues i think if more than one person has has an issue then as a collective body

00:27:46 body maybe the your if the council or tmo if i refer to the council tmo i do apologize if i get confused between them um

00:27:54 them um that obviously if one person writes it's just one person but if you're a group of however many people

00:28:02 people then your your complaint has got kind of more

00:28:05 more foundation upon which you can fall in terms of

00:28:09 terms of the way it's recognized than the council rather than think oh it's one person they can think okay that group of people have that view right and and you say that group of people have that view what issues

00:28:20 view what issues particularly did you think had been the subject of common complaint at that time um at that time i think the lifts was an issue the anti-social behavior um

00:28:32 the anti-social behavior um was an issue and the um i think the the gas pipe or the works taking place within the building right and what specifically about the

00:28:44 right and what specifically about the lifts

00:28:45 lifts was the subject of common complaint at that time um i think constant breakdowns um was the main issue with them um from my point of view right

00:28:56 um from my point of view right were you aware at that time so first quarter of 2017 of the existence of the lancaster west residents association or lwra no

00:29:09 or lwra no did you become aware of the existence of that organization only after the fire only after the fire

00:29:17 did you yourself have any involvement with the grenfell compact

00:29:24 no i want to look at paragraphs 32 uh through to 40. i'm not going to read them all to you on page five of this statement

00:29:34 statement if we could turn to that please um you uh uh

00:29:41 uh uh if we can go to paid paragraph 32 which i think is the next page i'm sorry

00:29:48 uh you you um describe there uh a report to the london fire brigade about a fire at grenfell tower that resulted in the injury of three

00:30:00 that resulted in the injury of three people caused by poor maintenance for which our tmo rbkc were responsible and you say that shah had shown me a report

00:30:11 report and you'd seen the reference to three people being injured and you only ever saw a hard copy of that report was that before or after you became secretary of the gtla

00:30:24 i can't remember this before after i became secretary right can i ask you to look at your first statement please iws 40130 page five

00:30:42 uh this is your phase one statement which is already in the record uh and uh you explain here in some detail over a number of short paragraphs the fire safety advice that you were given

00:30:53 you were given at the tower and in summary you say that before the refurbishment your knowledge of the stay put policy had come from naomi we've been told about it as you described them the fire safety people

00:31:05 described them the fire safety people it's paragraph 33 you see yep uh and and later you you said

00:31:10 said the knowledge had come from posters which had appeared in the communal areas in the building uh a few weeks before the fire but i want to ask you about some of the other sources

00:31:20 sources of fire safety advice can i start by asking you about link magazine can we go to tm020873549

00:31:36 now this is an issue of link magazine which is a publication by the tmo

00:31:43 the tmo and this is the autumn and winter 2015 issue issue 60 which is described as a bumper issue and it wishes you merry christmas to all

00:31:54 and it wishes you merry christmas to all our readers uh and do you remember receiving copies of link magazine

00:32:02 no

00:32:05 did you you never saw it lying around anywhere did you well i don't i can't remember

00:32:09 remember specifically receiving a link magazine i remember seeing you know newsletters from the the council or the tmo which i yeah so i've probably seen bits and things but i i can't say that

00:32:19 that i recognize the name link magazine right you see one of the reasons i'm asking you about about this magazine is it it's one of the means by which the tmo communicated or say they communicated

00:32:32 communicated or say they communicated fire safety advice uh so i'm asking you whether you as a resident of the tower ever saw it i would if they would have been if they'd been delivered i would it would have been something that i would have read right you know roughly

00:32:45 i would have read right you know roughly is

00:32:45 is breakfast time reading or something okay uh uh

00:32:49 uh uh uh and there'd be a lot to read did um you know you never saw this come through the letterbox no not not not specifically do you ever see it in the building no had you ever heard of it

00:33:03 no had you ever heard of it i feel like today's the first time i've i've properly heard of it right

00:33:09 uh right uh well let's look at another document the homeowner's newsletter tmo zero zero eight seven three five four two zero zero eight seven three

00:33:21 four two zero zero eight seven three five four two this is uh an issue of the tmo homeowners news issue 12 winter 2015. so it covers the same

00:33:33 winter 2015. so it covers the same period

00:33:34 period as the link magazine we've just looked at

00:33:37 at is this a document that you saw at the time

00:33:41 time winter 2015 do you think uh this seems more familiar i probably would have paid more attention to this kind of thing and i think i've seen things like this before

00:33:49 before how would you have seen it um how would it have come to you not sure if it would be by post probably by post

00:33:57 by post um right other than i'm not sure and and you say it was more familiar do you think you read it this probably because it's relating to service charges

00:34:10 because it's relating to service charges and financial things that would actually impact us yes right i see and uh if we go to page two we can see

00:34:24 page two we can see in the big red banner at the very top fire safety and there's some basic fire safety advice there including ensuring your child's nightwear is fully flame retardant

00:34:36 nightwear is fully flame retardant and then if you go to page three there's a box

00:34:41 a box with the words fire safety in it and a smoke alarm

00:34:47 uh and there's some advice in there about flat entrance doors if you look at that in the second paragraph there do you see

00:34:55 you see yeah do you remember seeing fire safety advice in newsletters like this particularly focusing on flat entrance doors

00:35:08 no not not specifically in this way not specifically in this way and let's just

00:35:15 just look at the third paragraph and see if this rings a bell with you mr chapman it says this where a door is potentially non-compliant we will write to you first seeking documentation confirming

00:35:27 first seeking documentation confirming the door is compliant with fire safety regulations if you're unable to provide this documentation we can arrange for the assessor to visit your home assess the door and produce a report confirming whether

00:35:38 and produce a report confirming whether it's compliant and if not what action is required by you if the assessor confirms that action is required it's essential that this is treated with priority now

00:35:49 that this is treated with priority now is that advice that you saw first of all in a publication such as this

00:35:55 as this do you think no i don't don't think i've seen that on this kind of publication before

00:36:00 before do you think that that's the sort of advice you would have seen otherwise um yeah i didn't i haven't seen any specific advice

00:36:11 i haven't seen any specific advice regarding

00:36:13 regarding the nature of what this is talking about right did you as well what assumptions did you make about whether the front door of the flat you lived in with naomi lee

00:36:24 with naomi lee was compliant with fire safety regulations i think the door was not compliant with fire safety regulations before we replaced it um because would you like me to go into further detail of

00:36:35 you like me to go into further detail of why

00:36:36 why we i do but we'll come to that in due course

00:36:40 course just on this document the last paragraph on the right hand side in the same box says that you can contact the tmos health and safety team if you have any queries about your flat

00:36:51 if you have any queries about your flat entrance door uh just opening up the point you

00:36:56 point you wanted to tell us a little bit about a moment ago we know that you changed your flat front door in 2016 didn't you yeah before you did that do you remember having any discussion with the tmo about

00:37:07 having any discussion with the tmo about its required fire resistance uh no i think the only the only time i would would have i wanted to get information was when i sent my emails before i see okay well we'll

00:37:22 my emails before i see okay well we'll come back to the question of your flat front door shortly can we then turn to tm00873559

00:37:35 this is an issue of uh the tmos homeowner news issue 13 from summer 2016.

00:37:44 2016. and if we go to page four in that please

00:37:52 again you can see a smoke alarm and the rubric fire safety in your home and this has got more detailed fire safety advice in it and again particularly more

00:38:03 in it and again particularly more detailed fire safety advice about your flat entrance door and you could see that in the right hand column there from the top flat entrance doors

00:38:13 doors do you remember receiving this newsletter particularly not the specific one no

00:38:19 one no no so do i take it from that you wouldn't have seen the advice about flat entrance doors set out on that page that i've just pointed out to you

00:38:27 you i don't remember seeing that

00:38:31 can we look next at a different document this is jrp 6028

00:38:45 this is the tmo and ryden grenfell tower regeneration newsletter from may 2016. do you remember receiving newsletters like this during the refurbishment

00:38:57 like this during the refurbishment yes did you read them yes you did do you think you read this one yes it seems very familiar right why does it seem very familiar uh because it's talking about the

00:39:08 because it's talking about the the heat metering system for the the hot water and the the heating generally right and that's something you specifically remember do you

00:39:15 you uh yes because this kind of instruction manual that you see for the the heating i remember having to refer to this to understand it right i see so this was your the

00:39:27 right i see so this was your the document you went to in order to work your heating and your flat correct right uh okay now if we go to page

00:39:33 page um uh if we go in that document uh please down to page four we can see that there is a section

00:39:46 we can see that there is a section entitled the stay put fire policy and it's i'll read this out to you the smoke detection systems have been upgraded and extended the fire brigade has asked us to reinforce the message that if there is a

00:39:57 reinforce the message that if there is a fire which is not inside your own home you are generally safest to stay put in your home to begin with the fire brigade will arrive very quickly if a fire is reported

00:40:06 reported the only reason you should leave your home is if the fire is inside your home in this case you and your family should leave the flat immediately close your door behind you leave the building and call the 999

00:40:17 building and call the 999 giving your address and post code if there is a fire in the block near your flat

00:40:21 flat and you believe you are at risk and would prefer to evacuate the building then please do so using the stairs and wait outside the building for the fire brigade to arrive do you remember reading that passage in this document that was

00:40:32 that passage in this document that was otherwise familiar to you yes you do and do you think you understood it yes which is why that that that is in my head

00:40:42 head of the stuff i repeated to to naomi on the night of the fire right by remotely because you weren't in the building correct yeah

00:40:58 can i then ask you to look at

00:41:04 five tm00899658 and i'd like to go to page 13

00:41:08 page 13 in that document run

00:41:13 now this is a snapshot of the tmo website

00:41:16 website as it appeared on the 24th of december 2016

00:41:20 2016 you can see that from the very top of the page because it refers to a british library archive snapshot my first question is did you know from the time you started living in the

00:41:32 from the time you started living in the flat

00:41:33 flat that the tma maintained a website i knew they had a website yes did you ever visit it

00:41:39 visit it uh yes for the reporting repairs i believe

00:41:46 for any other reason

00:41:50 not i can remember right now looking at this page

00:41:53 this page um you can see uh if we if we blow it up a little bit more you can perhaps see it a bit better fire and smoke alarms yes thank you uh and

00:42:03 and uh there is some advice uh given under fire safety fire and smoke alarms and then there are a number of different categories there's fire safety in the home smoke alarms fire resisting self-closing doors

00:42:16 alarms fire resisting self-closing doors and replacing front entrance doors you see that

00:42:19 see that yeah and if you turn to the next page please uh you the next one down is fitting of security gates at flat entrance door fire risk assessments communal corridors and staircases

00:42:31 and staircases evacuation strategy and fire safety in blocks of flats my general question is were you aware that you could find fire safety advice on the tma's website

00:42:42 on the tma's website no you weren't so the tmo never told you to go there to see the fire safety advice no right

00:42:52 i want to ask you next about the complaints process that the tmo operated can we go please to

00:42:59 please to your second statement and look at page 9 paragraph 43

00:43:09 and you say here on 13th of may 2017 shah wrote an email addressed to anthony cheney at the tmo pursuing this issue further

00:43:22 and you identified the issues in paragraph 41 gas anti-sexual behavior and lifts and

00:43:33 in paragraph 43 you go on after referring to the document to say i didn't draft the email but i put my name to it along with tunde because i agreed with the content and

00:43:44 because i agreed with the content and the decision to move the complaint up to stage two

00:43:47 stage two this was because i was still not satisfied with the information i'd been given

00:43:51 given and continue to have concerns about the progress of the works at the time i didn't understand the complaints process and what each stage meant

00:43:58 meant i wasn't overly interested in those details as my instinct was that it would never really be dealt with by the tmo or rbkc internally now uh

00:44:09 internally now uh if we um go please to the document this is rbk401012 it's the same references in paragraph 43

00:44:24 we can see the email from gtla dated the 13th of may 2017 to mr cheney copied to a host of people including uh um the including um

00:44:39 including uh um the including um the the mp your mp victoria boric uh and uh if you go please to page five in this email

00:44:50 in this email uh you can see that at the very bottom it's signed or not it's not in handwriting but it's written lee chapman and tunde abuderu

00:45:02 and if we go back to page one

00:45:08 uh we'll have to scroll down a little bit just to show you the first paragraph uh you um you say you and the complaints team have carried out an investigation

00:45:19 team have carried out an investigation into our case and reviewed the available background information including the previously provided response uh by sasha jevons executive director of operations unfortunately we found your

00:45:30 unfortunately we found your investigation neither open nor transparent and not based on fact but misleading information given by your neighborhood management team so we therefore intend to take our issues and concerns to stage two

00:45:42 concerns to stage two and final level for the following reasons and then you set out your reasons when you said stage two and final level there did you mean that

00:45:52 mean that stage two was as you thought the final

00:45:58 level i at the time wasn't clear on what what stages of complaint there were what would be the final level but as i think this email was drafted by

00:46:09 but as i think this email was drafted by shah or ortunde i i read it and thought well they probably know more than me about the stage of complaints so that's all i know i see and to be fair

00:46:21 that's all i know i see and to be fair to you the context in which you're referring to this email is your evidence you you didn't understand the tmo complaints process no i didn't understand it right now it

00:46:32 no i didn't understand it right now it would it be fair to say that you didn't appreciate that in fact it was a three-stage process no i wasn't aware of the stages okay um can we just look briefly then at tmo

00:46:43 tm00879692 this is the tmo complaints policy revised on the 30th of july 2015 as you can see and agreed by the tma

00:46:55 as you can see and agreed by the tma ball on the 10th of september 2015. um that page doesn't tell you very much itself if we can turn to page two um there is the beginning of the complaints policy

00:47:07 complaints policy and 1.1 starts all residents and customers have a right to expect an excellent

00:47:14 excellent service from kensington and chelsea tenant management organization kctmo and to have matters put right when they go wrong

00:47:23 go wrong did you ever see a copy of this complaints policy no did anybody ever bring its existence or how to find it perhaps to your attention no

00:47:35 attention no did you ever refer to it before submitting a complaint to the tmo no were you aware that complaints could be made in different ways to the tmo

00:47:47 different ways to the tmo and if we look at paragraph 2.5 perhaps before you answer the question if you look there at the bottom of the page it says complaints may be received in writing by letter or email telephone

00:47:58 in writing by letter or email telephone through the kctmo website or at our offices and at meetings or on home visits regardless of the method of notification of the complaint all complaints will be will be responded to in writing did you

00:48:10 will be responded to in writing did you know that

00:48:11 know that um i i would have expected anyway that that they would receive complaints in many different ways so not uh specifically on this point but naturally you'd think you could write a

00:48:22 naturally you'd think you could write a letter email or phone right i see so you you you assumed that what is that what is stated there was in fact the position uh yeah pretty much right now can we go

00:48:35 uh yeah pretty much right now can we go to your phase two statement please and look at paragraph 41

00:48:45 this is also on page nine and you say on the 22nd of april 2017 i emailed my local mp victoria boric and you put up you set out the reference i felt the need to do this because we had achieved nothing from raising our

00:48:56 had achieved nothing from raising our concerns with rbkc and the tmo i had a sense that the people in the tmo and rbkc looked down on the residents of grenfell tower and were brushing us off as a result i

00:49:07 and were brushing us off as a result i felt that the next step was to approach the local mp i was working full-time and so most of the emails i would send were in the evening i only raised issues that were important to me gas antisocial behavior and lifts i

00:49:19 gas antisocial behavior and lifts i included a summary of these issues and essentially tried to explain that no one was listening to us i was really trying to get some movement on these issues by contacting my mp

00:49:32 first of all can you just give us a a sense of why you had the feeling that the tmo and rbkc looked down on the residents of grenfell and were brushing you off

00:49:46 i think given the emails that i have sent

00:49:50 sent or you know that have been sent by the grenfell tower leaseholders association that whenever we wrote a complaint it felt like the reply was always generic it wasn't really addressing the specific concerns

00:50:01 concerns um so that's why i kind of felt that they weren't being dealt with and i think in my mind at the time that

00:50:12 in my mind at the time that because we were effectively living in a you know a council i'm building a social housing building maybe that the council would maybe perceive us to be

00:50:22 to be raising raising issues that are not really

00:50:26 really big issues to them at the time that was how i felt right

00:50:35 now you

00:50:39 uh were you aware that your local councillor and your mp could make a complaint on your behalf to the tmo i knew that by writing to

00:50:50 to the tmo i knew that by writing to your local mp they could essentially attack it from another angle if you like that wasn't i've never been entirely sure of exactly what they can do

00:51:01 yes and what was the upshot of this approach in brief can you just uh change the word upshot just resolve

00:51:12 just resolve um i think by raising the awareness to the mp to at least to at least make her aware and i think that the reply i got back from her obviously showed that she'd actually looked at it what was

00:51:24 she'd actually looked at it what was done

00:51:25 done doesn't matter but the fact that she'd looked at it and was aware of the issue so i feel like before she wouldn't have been aware of it right did you do you know whether

00:51:36 right did you do you know whether uh rbkc itself as opposed to the tmo had its own complaints procedure

00:51:43 i'm not sure you're not not sure you could you not run is that a can you just repeat it again sorry did you know whether the council rbkc had its own separate complaints procedure

00:51:55 uh in in separate separately from the tmo separately uh no because i think in my mind i just thought tmo rbkc they should be aligned in their in their procedure so that

00:52:07 procedure so that wouldn't really be necessary to kind of contact them separately if you like yes i see

00:52:14 so does it follow from that that you never explored whether you could as it were go around the tmo and go direct to rbkc with your complaint

00:52:23 complaint no and i felt that the the amount of email addresses you saw in the emails with

00:52:27 with lots of different people from different parts that kind of everyone should kind of be aware of what's going on anyway i see so does that tell us that the widespread dissemination of that

00:52:40 the widespread dissemination of that email

00:52:42 email meant that you weren't aware showed that you weren't aware of two separate chains of procedure yes yeah i think that's correct

00:52:53 does it also follow that before the fire you had never seen any policy or guidance as to how to make a complaint formally and directly to the council the rbkc yeah correct okay

00:53:09 uh can i move to the topic then which we touched on earlier of flat front doors um you moved into flat 195 after the general uh front door replacement program

00:53:20 program didn't you yes yes and i think in both statements that you've given us you've explained how you came to replace your your flat front door can we go to your first statement please at page four

00:53:32 and i'd like to look with you at paragraph 21. you say there i understand that the tmo changed the front doors to most of the flats from what i could

00:53:43 to most of the flats from what i could see the new doors installed by the tmo were white a uniform colour and style naomi and i changed our front door by ourselves i initially got in contact with claire williams

00:53:53 williams to see if they could change the door she said she would find out when she came back to me she said that because we were leaseholders we would need to do it ourselves i asked if there was a specific company

00:54:04 i asked if there was a specific company they used that we could contact she said no so we did it ourselves claire williams said that if we do get a new door we would need to make sure it is fire resistant for at least 30 minutes now you refer there to

00:54:18 30 minutes now you refer there to advice given to you by claire williams that the flat front doors should have fire resistance for at least 30 minutes were you aware of the need to maintain your flat front door as a fire door before that conversation

00:54:31 as a fire door before that conversation with claire williams you refer to no

00:54:36 did the tmo before that time tell you or or know me uh about the importance of the front door having a functioning self-closing device

00:54:49 self-closing device no now we know you changed your front door in november 2016.

00:54:55 2016. i think it's right that you bought a green front door from some people called global door yes that's correct yes and that was in their fire range wasn't it so to speak um did you make sure

00:55:08 so to speak um did you make sure that it had resistance to fire of at least 30 minutes yes how did you go about that um so obviously i emailed claire williams because i thought firstly she

00:55:19 williams because i thought firstly she might be able to recommend the specific company that the council used

00:55:24 used to replace the dogs i thought then at least you're keeping in line with what the

00:55:27 the the the council's policy is if you like um obviously she gave me the advice it needed to be resistant for 30 30 minutes so i think it was a case of

00:55:38 30 minutes so i think it was a case of searching on google to to find a fire rated door and that was how the the search commenced i see um can we go please to iws402370

00:55:56 now this is an email from global door to you

00:55:59 you dated 12th november 2016 subject your first class order confirmation and that is a reference and if you go to page two uh in that you

00:56:11 and if you go to page two uh in that you can see

00:56:11 can see that there is at the top a reference fd30s fire rated that's all in red and then in black door reference eight eighteen two oh five four

00:56:24 eighteen two oh five four uh styles door range fire etc uh is this document the document you relied on from global door that told

00:56:35 you relied on from global door that told you that this was uh a a 30 minute fire door or at least 30 minute fire door yeah uh it says if you go

00:56:47 uh it says if you go uh to the top as we've just seen that it's fire rated did you know what that meant

00:56:56 no no so you were just relying on the fact that it said fd30s yes i see do you know uh if that standard complied with fire

00:57:09 uh if that standard complied with fire safety regulations i would have presumed that if you are buying a fire a fire door that to be able to sell that it would be it

00:57:20 to be able to sell that it would be it should automatically comply with fire regulations can we look at your second statement please on page three

00:57:34 and at paragraph 14 under flat door you say

00:57:39 say i have already provided the inquiry with evidence relating to my front door paragraphs 21 to 24 of my phase one witness statement where i set out the circumstances in which naomi and i replaced our flat door to ensure it was a fire door

00:57:52 door to ensure it was a fire door surprisingly despite being told by claire williams of the tmo that the door would have to have a 30 minute resistance to fire no one at the tma ever asked to look at it or sorry to look at or be provided with copies of the fire resistance guarantees that

00:58:04 of the fire resistance guarantees that we obtained for the doors there is no way that the tmo would have known whether our flat door complied with the fire safety requirement or not even though we had been proactive in raising the issue of the door with them do you yourself ever

00:58:18 with them do you yourself ever ask for any assurance from claire williams or anybody else at the tmo that the door you had chosen was suitable

00:58:27 suitable no why was that um

00:58:33 i think because the nature of the way i asked her anyway on the email and then it was just kind of like a very you know uh straightforward response i had from her

00:58:44 straightforward response i had from her it felt like it wasn't no one seemed to really be that worried well i say no one claire williams it didn't seem like it was something that was necessarily followed and checked

00:58:55 does it follow from that that nobody ever asked you

00:59:02 to let them check your front door to to make sure that it did have a minimum 30 minutes fire resistance no

00:59:13 minimum 30 minutes fire resistance no one checked that and does it also follow that no one ever asked to check your front door to make sure

00:59:19 sure that it had a an operating self-closing mechanism

00:59:22 mechanism no one checked that did you ever meet a man called stokes i don't remember stokes the name carl stokes uh no i don't remember that

00:59:34 carl stokes uh no i don't remember that name

00:59:35 name did you ever meet anybody who asked to inspect your front door or its door closer as part of a routine inspection no i don't remember any routine inspection or even a non-routine inspection no no one checked that door

00:59:47 inspection no no one checked that door right

00:59:50 did you ever meet a fire risk assessor retained by the tmo no

01:00:02 i'd like to turn to a different topic which is the gas pipe installation in the stairwell and to start if i can with your initial concerns about it which you describe in your second

01:00:13 which you describe in your second statement of paragraphs 19 to 48 from pages five to ten and there's a lot of material in that and we'll take that as

01:00:20 as as read but can we look uh at uh how this starts in your first statement page six

01:00:33 and go in page six to paragraph 43 and you say that at the top of the page as the gas piping in the stairwell was being installed we were told that our gas pipes would be

01:00:44 we were told that our gas pipes would be changed

01:00:45 changed so that gas pipes ran along the ceiling coming into the flat above the front door and through the bathroom and toilet into the kitchen we refused to allow this because i was concerned about the safety of this we were told that eventually they would

01:00:57 we were told that eventually they would just turn off the old gas supply this issue had not been resolved at the time of the fire we had received letters from national grid saying that they needed access i think the council said we would need to give

01:01:08 the council said we would need to give access i spoke to someone via the national grid on the telephone and said i wouldn't allow it until i was happy that it was necessary and safe living so close to the top i was worried about fire safety as we would need more

01:01:20 about fire safety as we would need more time to get out in the event of a fire also i cannot stress how worried i was about the gas pipe

01:01:29 now you refer there to a discussion that you had with the national grid in which you refused access until you were happy that the works were necessary and safe

01:01:38 and safe what kind of reassurance were you after

01:01:47 i think at the time just to to understand that they were what they were doing was was safe and that was essentially um agreed with with higher powers if you

01:02:01 agreed with with higher powers if you like

01:02:01 like um to know that what they were doing you know was compliant with fire regulations was there any reason you had to think

01:02:12 was there any reason you had to think that the national grid would not comply with the fire regulations

01:02:19 yes i think because because of the way i saw the pipes installed outside on the on the ceiling and the fact that they intended to go through you know other rooms within the flat

01:02:32 you know other rooms within the flat to me that just didn't seem right that the gas

01:02:35 the gas a gas pipe would would flow through those areas when you uh refer to uh building regulations or fire regulations

01:02:47 building regulations or fire regulations what what did you what do you mean do you mean the regulations governing uh national grid as a statutory undertaker yeah just generally general regulations for the work that they do

01:02:58 regulations for the work that they do right i see i mean you're not i mean clearly not maybe you are an expert in in gas risers uh but does it come to this that you were looking at it as a

01:03:09 were looking at it as a a lay person like me you'd think well that doesn't look safe to me is this right yeah and that's exactly that's exactly why i kind of challenged it because it just

01:03:21 i kind of challenged it because it just didn't seem right it didn't sit right with me

01:03:23 with me the fact that that was happening and and and you know that that was why i was i was worried about it uh

01:03:33 you were after a a reassurance from the national grid what what what what would be the substance of the reins reassurance that you would get from the national grid that would make you

01:03:44 that would make you assured or reassured i think i was expecting firstly someone to kind of

01:03:51 of go into a bit more detail on why it was okay and also i would have expected a letter to kind of say um it's completely safe this is why

01:04:02 um it's completely safe this is why um i mean i understood the reason why they needed to replace the old gas pipes but i didn't understand of why they were going to install this new one in such an odd way to me i see i see did you get the kind of reassurance that you were

01:04:14 the kind of reassurance that you were seeking no what was the result of this discussion in the end

01:04:21 i think it was probably left where we said i wouldn't allow someone access until i was happy it was it was safe and obviously the fire happened so it never got to that beyond that stage

01:04:34 now if we go back uh to your second statement please and go to page five

01:04:47 you see you say in paragraph 21 on that page

01:04:51 page we were not consulted on the works and the work seemed to be done with no one from our bkc or tmo inspecting if we hadn't raised concerns about these works as detailed below

01:05:02 about these works as detailed below nothing would have been challenged or done about these works

01:05:07 now what gave you the impression that no one from rbkc or tmo seemed to be inspecting these works i think in my head at the time i thought

01:05:18 i think in my head at the time i thought that

01:05:19 that the nature of the way it was being installed um that how could how could anyone have checked it and said it was okay to do it um that was that would be my reasoning

01:05:30 um that was that would be my reasoning at the time they just it just didn't look right and i'm pretty sure as a landlord you wouldn't be happy with

01:05:37 with with the works going about in the way that they were going i see so you were drawing a a an inference where you from the fact that you didn't think they sat right that they can't have been looked at by the tmo or the or rbkc correct

01:05:49 tmo or the or rbkc correct i see can we look at paragraph 22 together you say this i had concerns about the gas pipes being done in this way and was told that the gas pipes would be boxed in however i had seen the way the workers

01:06:00 however i had seen the way the workers had boxed in the central heating pipes and in my view this had been done very poorly in what appeared to be the cheapest possible way i had genuine concerns about this plan for the gas pipes as i did not think the

01:06:11 for the gas pipes as i did not think the workman would box them in correctly in any event as i set out in my phase one witness statement my recollection is by the time i left for malaysia on the 9th of june 2017 the pipes were not boxed in for several floors below us

01:06:24 boxed in for several floors below us when you first had concerns about the gas pipes

01:06:27 gas pipes what did you understand to be the process for raising those concerns i don't think i understood the process for raising them being any different to what previously thought in terms of

01:06:39 what previously thought in terms of writing a letter or or making a phone call i see so were you no further forward in your understanding of the tma's staged complaints policy you were no further forward in

01:06:50 you were no further forward in understanding that there was a separate complaint system for rbkc no i see i never looked at them as

01:06:56 as kind of a separate entity i always thought

01:06:59 thought the council choose the tmo to do to maintain this work they work together right did anybody say to you that this wasn't their problem or business you should talk to the national grid if you have a problem

01:07:11 you have a problem i don't remember no right chapman can i ask you this if um someone from the tmo or the council had written to perhaps a round letter to all the tenants saying this is what the

01:07:22 all the tenants saying this is what the work is this is why it's being done in this way

01:07:26 this way and the national grid are happy that it's all

01:07:30 it's all um safe and appropriate would that have satisfied your concerns do you think i think somewhat yes

01:07:37 yes all right i probably to be honest i probably would have still thought in my head

01:07:41 head it's not right but the end of the day i'm i don't know how the regulations work but if they're happy and they're saying it's fine then it must be fine you know yes right okay

01:07:51 okay yes

01:07:55 now at this time is this right that you hadn't yet uh become involved in gtla well had you at what point sorry when

01:08:07 well had you at what point sorry when the question mark arose over the installation of the gas pipes i'm not sure specifically when i when i joined the the gtla but that that was certainly a

01:08:20 the gtla but that that was certainly a kind of like a flash point in my head if you like it was it was a really big issue

01:08:24 issue right that needed to be dealt with all right i mean the dates may get a little close to each other but you've told us that you joined the gtla in early 2017 and became secretary in the march of that year yep

01:08:35 the march of that year yep uh i'm just trying to get a feel for whether at the time you raised your concerns about the the gas riser installation you were yet involved in the gtla

01:08:45 the gtla i can't remember specifically but that was probably the thing that prompted me to really

01:08:49 to really get involved and really start trying to move things yes and you do list gas as one of you yes yes that was my biggest worry i see

01:09:00 looking if we can at page six you can see at paragraph 25 you say this i was incredibly confused by the tmo's

01:09:11 i was incredibly confused by the tmo's reluctance to engage with this as an issue

01:09:13 issue it didn't make sense to me that the landlord would not be interested in this issue

01:09:17 issue especially as it was one which could damage their own asset if the works were unsafe

01:09:23 unsafe and and this issue there i think is the issue of the gas pipes the installation yes yes what's the what was it um that made you think that the tmo was reluctant to engage

01:09:34 the tmo was reluctant to engage on this issue i think with the letters that we sent and the responses that we got

01:09:41 got just didn't really seem to fully address what we were what we were raising there never seemed to be specific addressing you know the individual parts of it it was just very generic

01:09:56 now if we go back in this statement uh we'll come back to paragraph 26 in a moment but just to just to come back to uh paragraph 16 in this statement if you

01:10:08 uh paragraph 16 in this statement if you go back uh to page four you can see uh that you had had a windows with the tmo

01:10:19 a windows with the tmo in march 2017 and it had a series of complaints about that um if you now go back to page six and paragraph 26

01:10:33 you say

01:10:36 this on 16th march 2017 tunde abuderu the vice chair of the gtla sent an email to millicent williams at the tmo and there's the reference this email followed on from an

01:10:48 reference this email followed on from an earlier exchange about some of the complaints that the gtla had about grenfell tower tunde referred to an earlier email that he'd sent on 7th march 2017 about the exposed gas pipes he explained that we did not feel safe in the building

01:11:00 did not feel safe in the building and asked for an independent adjudicator to investigate the gas pipes and for the residents to be provided with proof that tmo had been authorized to carry out the gas works in this way

01:11:11 to carry out the gas works in this way uh let's look at that email itself which is a tmo

01:11:15 is a tmo one double zero four six eight seven three page four

01:11:38 so tmo10046873 page four

01:12:03 yes yes thank you very much and there is the email

01:12:12 if you see the date 16th of march and look at the very bottom of the page it comes from tunderu uh he says in the second line let me be

01:12:25 uh he says in the second line let me be category let me categorically confirm to you that to you and the leaderships of the kctmo

01:12:30 the kctmo and also i'm referring to my earlier email dated 7th of march 2017. this attached exposed gas pipe throughout the building has put our life in danger

01:12:39 in danger and we don't feel secure in the building anymore the leaderships of the kc tmo must in capitals underlying bold find immediate remedy to the serious concerns and secure the building by tonight

01:12:50 and secure the building by tonight if you feel we are overstating our claim of health and safety concerns we request the kctma

01:12:55 the kctma to invite the independent adjudicator to investigate the gas pipe immediately again the extract from our earlier email dated 7th march 2017 for the information and convenience of the recipients of this email

01:13:07 this email and then he sets that out again could you please kindly provide us the proof or evidence is that anywhere at rbkc or in london or the united kingdom the gas pipeline exposed in such a manner and installed beside the staircase only

01:13:18 and installed beside the staircase only fire escape when there is no air can escape whatsoever and more importantly the staircase of grenfell tower is the main breeding ground and where the vandalism and anti-social are daily occurrences this newly

01:13:30 are daily occurrences this newly installed exposed gas pipeline is easy target of vandalism and one incident can have serious catastrophic consequence for the whole building could you please kindly provide us the health and safety certificate authorize that the

01:13:42 safety certificate authorize that the kctma or national grid that they obtain permission before installing the gas pipe going through the entire staircases of the building please read comments sent to us by one of the residents of this

01:13:53 to us by one of the residents of this building

01:13:54 building quotes i'm absolutely shocked by the dodgy work and the risk to this building i walked up the communal stairs tonight and i'm surprised that there is not even protection if there was a gas leak on one of those pipes and someone was smoking that would

01:14:05 pipes and someone was smoking that would be the end of the building close quotes this is quite scary and not truth but

01:14:09 truth but fact of the matter and sometimes quotes hardest things to find in this world something is in front of us close quotes we demand that the kctma must

01:14:19 must make this building secure and give assurance that the building is secure by tonight before everybody goes to bed we wait to hear from you in the leaderships of the kctmo not in due course but now bold caps

01:14:31 not in due course but now bold caps now that's just we can see that for the terms and tone in which it's written do you know whether there were any discussions within gtla before that email was sent by mr awaderu

01:14:44 before that email was sent by mr awaderu uh i don't remember right do you know why mr awadaru was asking for an independent adjudicator

01:14:54 i think i mean at some point i know that we discussed getting someone independent to

01:14:59 to to assess the works um and i think that i'm well i'm not sure what he's referring to exactly but that was our kind of thing that we thought we need to get someone independent of

01:15:10 independent of us and of our bkc to look at it and tell us if it was okay or not now if we go to the next email up in the chain

01:15:25 to the next email up in the chain uh it starts at the bottom of page two

01:15:29 and goes over in substance to page three and is sent to millicent williams but copied to a host of of others if we can go to page three you'll see the rest of it

01:15:40 you'll see the rest of it dear melissa williams i'm writing to further support all issues made by raised by mr awaderu and i should have pointed out the date this is the 20th of march 2017. so four days later

01:15:53 march 2017. so four days later my first question is if you look at the list of email recipients at the bottom of page two top of page three and for present purposes top of page three if we can scroll well

01:16:04 top of page three if we can scroll well there it is um that would help and my question is how did you collate that list

01:16:11 um so i think i looked at emails that were sent before from from you know grenfell tower leasehold association and who i thought was maybe important

01:16:22 and who i thought was maybe important at that who was important to contact so i wasn't maybe entirely sure of exactly who to write to but you know you can see there's like counsellor or robert black and i understood that robert black and um

01:16:35 robert black and um laura johnson was quite high up in in rbk ctmo

01:16:39 rbk ctmo whichever one it was so i thought that that

01:16:43 that that was how i kind of formed the names if you'd like to go in this email i see um you can see that in fact the email goes beyond the tmo uh and rbkc

01:16:54 beyond the tmo uh and rbkc and goes for example to individuals at parliament.uk you could see that the very last entry on page two shea law which i think is shea lorkhan at parliament uk um where did you get

01:17:05 at parliament uk um where did you get their name from so i'm not sure whether i thought that person was the the secretary of the mp for our area or not i'm not sure i'm i would assume that

01:17:16 i'm not sure i'm i would assume that that is probably why i copied that name in

01:17:19 in i see

01:17:25 and quentina lane octavia

01:17:32 do you know who she is no you know how you got her name to enter this list and now i probably looked at the previous emails and thought okay if i wasn't sure probably better to leave it in looking

01:17:43 probably better to leave it in looking at the second paragraph which is on the screen in front of you you say we are sincerely concerned as residents

01:17:49 residents living in the tower and at the fire risk that the recent installation of the gas pipes was brought to the building it is not just the installation itself that causes some alarm but it is the risk that exposed pipes of any kind can cause the

01:18:01 pipes of any kind can cause the residents

01:18:01 residents the fact that these pipes have natural gas which i'm sure you will understand is extremely combustible makes us feel in grave danger in the event of one of the pipes being compromised and then you say a little bit further

01:18:12 and then you say a little bit further down towards the bottom of the page uh having seen these pipes numerous times

01:18:18 times i am seriously concerned about how i will get out of this building alive in the event of a fire with this added risk at no point were we advised that a gas pipe would be installed in a communal area nor were we informed of the need to be

01:18:30 nor were we informed of the need to be extra vigilant at the 22nd floor it is a very long way down from the window in the event

01:18:35 the event that after 30 minutes of fire our house is engulfed um can you explain what you meant in this email by the reference to the installation causing some alarm which you see in the

01:18:47 causing some alarm which you see in the first

01:18:48 first main paragraph i read to you can you just go back to the first paragraph the first one just so i can make references yes yes absolutely can we scroll back up yes thank you where it's a paragraph where you say

01:19:00 where you say we are sincerely concerned as residents living in the tower in the second line there you say it is not just the installation itself that causes some alarm but it is the risk that exposed pipes of any kind that can cause to residents

01:19:13 any kind that can cause to residents my question again can you explain what you meant when you when you refer to the installation causing some alarm so i think the installation is related to the

01:19:23 to the the pipe being installed without boxing whatever it was supposed to have around it that's kind of like the first issue of the installation and then then the other issue with the fact that if gas is flowing through that pipe

01:19:33 pipe without the fire rated box around it or just the pipes generally that you know if someone's smoking in the stairwell or something like that the risk of of a fire

01:19:44 the risk of of a fire from that certainly it they're causing some alarm i'm interested in did you what did you mean by that did you mean that it wasn't just you who was alarmed but

01:19:55 it wasn't just you who was alarmed but there were others in the building yeah i think there are others in the building that were yeah concerned i think some alarm was me trying to be polite i see so it was a it was an understatement intended to

01:20:06 it was an understatement intended to communicate a rather graver correct sense yes disquiet yeah had you talked to uh um members uh of gtla before sending this email

01:20:19 uh of gtla before sending this email about this question

01:20:24 i'm not sure exactly what point i would have spoken to the other members of the of the grenfell tower leasehold association i know we discussed it at points

01:20:32 points um but yeah i'm not not sure in relation specifically to this it may have been that

01:20:36 that when i wrote some of the emails i didn't necessarily consult with them but i knew that it was an issue so i should try and you know keep momentum to what extent did you know that others in the building

01:20:48 did you know that others in the building shared your sense of alarm so i think once when i'd walked down the the stairwell before and seen the the pipes i think there was someone smoking once in the stairwell

01:21:00 in the stairwell and i said oh don't you worry about these pipes and they said yeah of course as they were smoking but that's why i knew that you know it wasn't i suppose i'd heard that kind of anecdotal quote if you like

01:21:12 anecdotal quote if you like and obviously i knew the issues with the shah

01:21:16 shah and um tunde you know we had raised and i think there was there was someone else at some point that we'd also discussed it with so i knew it wasn't just you know us three if you like right

01:21:28 three if you like right how many members did the gtla have at this point can you remember i'm not sure of active members i think there were a number of people that essentially signed up to the emails but i'm not sure of the active numbers

01:21:40 but i'm not sure of the active numbers of people within the grenfell tower leaseholder association right did you have a system or means by which you could collect their views

01:21:48 not really because we didn't get responses from the emails that we sent from many people did you send an email around about your concerns about the gas installation at this point before writing this email

01:22:00 writing this email i don't think so right i don't remember i should say now if we go in your second statement

01:22:12 now if we go in your second statement please

01:22:13 please to page six go back there please we've just looked at paragraph 26 i'd like to look now at paragraph 27 and you refer to this response in that paragraph

01:22:23 paragraph and you say in the third line the reason that i felt the need to do this was because i was concerned that the tma were for some reason assuming that gtla emails were only really on

01:22:36 that gtla emails were only really on behalf of tunde and shah because they were the chair and vice chair i felt that the way to make the tmo and rbkc actually take notice would be to email separately in order to show that this was an issue that was

01:22:47 was an issue that was it was concerning a large number of us and when you say large number can you give us a feel for how many

01:22:59 not specifically no i mean other than speaking to people on kind of like an ad hoc basis if you like um to know that there were other people um involved i mean the large number

01:23:11 involved i mean the large number i think was kind of assumed that because you

01:23:15 you you you know that obviously the only people you really speak to the people involved with this specific issue that other people maybe had an issue but didn't want to talk about it didn't want to contact anyone about it

01:23:26 didn't want to contact anyone about it right

01:23:28 right i see so when you say large number of us was that strictly accurate or was that a

01:23:38 generous uh i think i mean i can think of when we we kind of stood in the corridor once trying to get signatures for something i don't know if it was relation to the firebox or something else and we had a list of

01:23:50 else and we had a list of a number of people and by that i think more than 10 but i think the definition of

01:23:55 of large number because i can't quantify it for you i can't really say whether it's large or small no at any rate not not you alone correct not mr darrell alone yeah not just us three who are always sending

01:24:06 just us three who are always sending emails

01:24:09 emails uh can we then uh go please to rbk401574 i'd like to go to page two

01:24:24 and if you look halfway down page two you can see that there's an email from you

01:24:30 you to laura johnson at rbkc dated the 23rd of march 2017 copied to robert black and also to gtla and tunde awadhiru

01:24:41 and also to gtla and tunde awadhiru himself and also judith blakeman who is a counsellor and you say dear miss l johnson please may i ask for your assistance with outstanding issue in grenfell tower

01:24:53 outstanding issue in grenfell tower i'm writing to you i'm writing you with regards to the fire safety report which the grenfell tower leaseholders association has already requested

01:25:01 requested as you've already seen your asset grenfell tower is subject to what we believe is a health and safety risk due to a gas main being installed within a high risk area of the building namely communal fire escape given this

01:25:14 namely communal fire escape given this has already been requested i would like to understand what progress has been has been made is getting this report and cascading it through to us if the rbkc feels that it has contracted out this

01:25:26 feels that it has contracted out this work with the duty of care then it should be relatively straightforward to make this available without delay the potential risk to life and also to our common assets is without doubt very high given that this gas main is

01:25:39 very high given that this gas main is installed through our communal fire escape i cannot imagine the possible consequences of a fire in this building and as a duty of care the rbkc must ensure that we can get out in an emergency

01:25:48 emergency if there is a need to evacuate to be clear if we cannot get out people will die

01:25:53 die or at best suffer serious injury now that there is more in this email that i i can show you as you'll recall

01:26:05 that i i can show you as you'll recall but just pausing there given that uh as you s as you say in your in your second statement of paragraph 31 and if we need to see that we can see that but given what you say there that by

01:26:15 by this time 23rd of march 2017 you had not yet received a response from militant williams to your 20th of march email why did you think it was necessary to

01:26:26 why did you think it was necessary to send this message to laura johnson

01:26:30 i think given the severity in my view of what issues we were raising and that the works were still continuing that we should have had a response by by that point i see so four days

01:26:42 by by that point i see so four days was too long to wait yes i'd all put words in your mouth but that's the sense of i'm getting yeah yeah i felt that this was a very very urgent issue and it it just wasn't being dealt with i mean this kind of nature if anywhere else in

01:26:54 nature if anywhere else in in your life you you know you raise in what you view is a you know almost a life and death kind of uh issue that it would be dealt with the severity of which it's intended right

01:27:06 intended right why didn't you just chase millicent williams up first for an answer telling her how you felt i think because of all the different people that we'd emailed and were involved i understood that laura johnson

01:27:18 involved i understood that laura johnson was like one of the big bosses if you like

01:27:20 like that and i presume that you know they're they're all in their offices or whatever and they're you know they're probably quite close to one another that if you're emailing one person they're probably going to say to another person you know what's going on and just really

01:27:32 you know what's going on and just really to kind of so different people know that we are we this is a big issue and someone needs to take notice of it right now you say in your second statement that paragraph 31

01:27:44 statement that paragraph 31 that you had assumed that tunde awaderu or shah ahmed told you that laura johnson was the person to contact did they explain to you that why she was the person at rbkc to contact they did at the time

01:27:57 at rbkc to contact they did at the time but i can't remember the the reason right now you refer in the part of the email which we've just looked at together

01:28:04 together to rbc having a duty of care to ensure that you could safely evacuate in the event of an emergency um what led you to think that if you own the building surely you are

01:28:16 if you own the building surely you are responsible for ensuring the safety of the people in that building you are the landlord now i asked you earlier on about the stay put policy and you confirmed that you were aware of that policy

01:28:27 you were aware of that policy yes given that stay put was the policy in place at grenfell tower can you just help us why you nonetheless were concerned about whether you could

01:28:38 concerned about whether you could evacuate from your flat yes so i think being so high up um knowing i mean because the lifts have broken many times that i

01:28:49 broken many times that i you know the time it took to get down the stairs um i think one minute let me just think about what i'm saying

01:29:02 yes so i think because i because we were living so high up and we knew of these issues we knew it'd be a long it would take a long time to get down the stairs that i thought that obviously the higher

01:29:13 that i thought that obviously the higher you live obviously the more serious it is because if you lived on the lower floors and there was a fire you could either get down the stairs or maybe you could jump out the window something like that but being so high up knowing that that communal stairwell is your only way of

01:29:24 communal stairwell is your only way of getting out was my was my my big worry at that time and i remember going to bed thinking i really hope nothing ever happens but what what can you do you live somewhere

01:29:36 what what can you do you live somewhere and you have to trust the people that are

01:29:38 are responsible for that building are looking after the health and safety because

01:29:42 because that's normally the number one thing that everyone worries about you know in day-to-day life

01:29:50 what i'm really driving at mr chapman is that if the stay put advice with good and reliable advice stay put in your flat if there's a fire elsewhere in the block why were you concerned about whether you

01:30:03 why were you concerned about whether you could get out because of this work that was going on around

01:30:10 around okay i understand you've been given the advice that you stay put if it's not in your flat but my real concern was okay that's fine providing you can get out eventually if the fire doesn't spread and in my

01:30:21 if the fire doesn't spread and in my mind that

01:30:23 mind that that the gas pipe having seen the work knowing that there were gaps within that and knowing how smoke travels how how can you be sure that if you do need to get out you'll be able to get

01:30:34 need to get out you'll be able to get out

01:30:35 out so i wonder if we can together put put our finger on the essence of it i think you might just have done that and forgive me for putting words into your mouth but was the essence of your question directed

01:30:48 essence of your question directed to a fire not in a flat but in the main escape route

01:30:54 you i'm not sure exactly i mean i had in my head about the escape route and the gas and the gas leaking and there being a fire in the escape route that being one of my my bigger issues at the time was worried

01:31:06 my bigger issues at the time was worried about an actual fire related to the gas pipe within the communal area or in the stairway right did you i mean given that the gas pipe was being installed in the actual escape route did you ask the tmo why

01:31:19 escape route did you ask the tmo why and how come the the state policy was relevant

01:31:23 relevant i never questioned the state policy because i thought that's something that's

01:31:27 that's that must have been agreed within the you know the fire brigade and and the council so i never think to kind of question that advice because the fire brigade's kind of separate to any other organization anyway

01:31:39 other organization anyway now further down in the email if we turn the page to page three at the top of that page you can see you said in 2010 a fire in the building resulted

01:31:50 in 2010 a fire in the building resulted in the injury of three people as per lfb report which was caused by poor maintenance for which the tma stroke rbkc was responsible i'm sure you can understand that for

01:32:02 i'm sure you can understand that for this reason a number of residents are extremely concerned of the same thing happening again we've received verbal communication from a number of residents who feel that the building's integrity has been compromised due to the appearance of the pipe one

01:32:13 due to the appearance of the pipe one neighbor said they do not believe that it is a gas main and they will continue to smoke in the communal staircase

01:32:21 now the incident you refer to in 2010 uh was one by this time which was seven seven years previous why were you still concerned about the maintenance of the building at

01:32:32 about the maintenance of the building at that point

01:32:36 specifically i can't remember the the full detail but from from that report or the summary of that fire i seem to remember it was caused by i could be wrong but you know some bags being left somewhere that shouldn't have

01:32:47 being left somewhere that shouldn't have been or something like that so i think in my head i thought there's a fire that happened then people have been injured so by bringing up this this kind of old

01:32:59 by bringing up this this kind of old issue just of what i perceive to be as poor maintenance or you know the mistake if you like of of the tmo or council

01:33:07 council raising pulling that issue up from the past and then bring up this issue now just to make to give some relevance to the two things that

01:33:14 that don't let this happen again right i see and in the in the rest of this email three paragraphs down

01:33:25 rest of this email three paragraphs down you say

01:33:26 you say there are many people in this building who are immobile very young or suffer from mental health issues i would ask for your undivided help in getting this manner resolved for all interested parties

01:33:37 interested parties how did you know that there were many people in grenfell tower who were immobile young or suffering from mental health issues having seen people in the building who weren't able to move

01:33:48 in the building who weren't able to move having seen very young children or even on our floor the very very young children that lived on our floor um and mental health i mean i knew as someone who who was suffering

01:34:00 i knew as someone who who was suffering with mental health and they didn't like to go outside so that was why i kind of people that i knew had issues or i had some some issue in getting out that's why i put this on here

01:34:12 were you aware of a system that allowed residents to report to the tmo that they had a physical or mental vulnerability no were you aware that residents could

01:34:24 no were you aware that residents could ask

01:34:25 ask the tmo to assess them for a personal emergency evacuation plan or a peep as it's called if they needed assistance uh when or if they had to evacuate the tower uh no because it wasn't relevant

01:34:37 tower uh no because it wasn't relevant to

01:34:38 to to people within our apartment flat right as secretary of the gtla as you were

01:34:46 were from march 2017 did you know whether any residents

01:34:50 residents of granfell tower had asked the tmo to prepare a peep for them no

01:34:59 did you know

01:35:03 at best i suppose as secretary of the gtla what information the tmo had about those residents of the tower who were vulnerable who might need a peep uh no

01:35:18 mr chairman i've note the time i've got one or two more questions on this email chain if i can just complete those before the break well that seems sensible thank you do that and if we go up the chain to page one

01:35:29 and if we go up the chain to page one then

01:35:31 then uh we can see on that page second email down

01:35:34 down that there is a response to you from laura johnson at rbkc uh copy to robert black on the 28th of march 2017 so a few days later

01:35:45 march 2017 so a few days later and she starts mr chapman thank you for your email and i can confirm i'm aware of your concerns around the installation of the gas riser in the stairwell of grenfell tower the gas installation is the responsibility

01:35:56 gas installation is the responsibility of national grid which i do not believe would fit any installation which contravenes any health and safety legislation and then she goes on i can assure you that kctmo and rbkc take our health and safety

01:36:08 rbkc take our health and safety responsibilities very seriously and are committed to complying with our statutory obligations and implementing effective control measures to mitigate risks to residents their visitors our staff and our contractors

01:36:19 visitors our staff and our contractors to assist us with this kctmo employ a competent and experienced health and safety advisor janice ray and additionally in relation to fire safety specifically janus is supported by a competent

01:36:31 janus is supported by a competent independent consultant who undertakes our fire risk assessments and provides a range of fire safety inspections advice and guidance as necessary further as necessary kctma will seek

01:36:42 further as necessary kctma will seek advice

01:36:43 advice guidance and clarification from other professionals such as building control officers

01:36:48 officers the health and safety executive etc there is a formal governance structure within kctmo for health and safety with a committee which reports to the executive team as such rbkc and kctmo do not see that

01:37:02 as such rbkc and kctmo do not see that it is necessary to instruct and quote independent adjudicator close quotes at this time

01:37:10 and if we then go to uh

01:37:18 tmo10016490

01:37:25 and it's necessary to link the two emails together um you can see that earlier the same day 28th of march 2017 and even a couple of hours beforehand 1551

01:37:37 1551 you had received an email from sasha jevons executive executive director of operations for the tmo which also referred to janice ray and

01:37:45 and to janice ray being supported by an independent consultant you can see that and there's a summary with lots of bullet points on that and if we go to page two

01:38:01 if we look at the third paragraph down she says however i can confirm that we have provided our fire safety consultant with copies of all national grid proposals made available to us

01:38:13 grid proposals made available to us and we have progressed all concerns queries and observations raised by him further we instructed this consultant to undertake an inspection of on-site works and we have again raised all issues he has highlighted with the national grid

01:38:24 has highlighted with the national grid and we have received confirmation that these will be addressed and further down again you can see that it says

01:38:30 it says just two paragraphs up from where it says least health consultation it has been suggested that we seek london fire brigades approval report or certification for this work we have reviewed this and i can advise

01:38:41 we have reviewed this and i can advise you it is our intention to raise this with the fire brigade and request their input at our next regular liaison meeting scheduled for 29th march so that was uh the next day in fact

01:38:54 so that was uh the next day in fact were you aware that the tmo had employed an independent consultant to provide advice on fire safety no now sasha jevon says

01:39:05 no now sasha jevon says as you can see that the consultant would inspect the on-site works and that the tmo was raising this with the lfb were you reassured by that no as i think i understood that this

01:39:18 no as i think i understood that this consultant was maybe not independent and basically being paid by the casey by rbkc or the tmo so i thought that they weren't maybe as independent as they could be

01:39:29 maybe as independent as they could be right uh and you've received two emails one from laura johnson and one from sasha jevens both senior people respectively at rbkc and tmo on the the

01:39:40 rbkc and tmo on the the same day um why did you still have concerns after having received those emails i think given the amount of kind of content that have been

01:39:52 content that have been pushed if you like to to uh you know these

01:39:55 these these people in rbkc tmo and how much kind of traction we had not traction

01:40:01 traction but how much we really tried to move things and just the slowness in which we were getting responses and the way in which things have been very generic with the responses it just felt like

01:40:12 felt like they're really dragging the feet to kind of address what we were asking for right you say dragging your feet i mean it's fair to say that this

01:40:23 it's fair to say that this concern had arisen and have been generated and we've seen the emails that all really happening over a a maximum two week period in the second half of march 2017. um what was it about the pace of these

01:40:36 um what was it about the pace of these answers that led you to think that they would

01:40:38 would slow to the point of being dangerous if that's the right way the fact it was about work that was continuing to take place despite raising these issues without addressing the concerns first of all

01:40:49 addressing the concerns first of all without yeah without addressing it just the work continuing felt like it wasn't right now you're saying your statement and there's need to go to it but it's paragraph 34 um your second statement that in fact

01:41:01 um your second statement that in fact you say what the gtla had wanted was an independent fire safety report of some sort why did you want an independent fire safety report

01:41:11 to look at the to look as it look at it as it was

01:41:16 as it was not be influenced by by the people that you put there um and when i say when i say independent i mean someone that really is completely independent to assess it without any bias with us

01:41:27 to assess it without any bias with us saying oh can you look at this we'll worry about but just to assess it as it was

01:41:31 was right so it was the nub of it was the essence of your concern that the fire risk assessor wasn't truly independent correct yes i see

01:41:42 and do you think that the tmo had really addressed your point about the relevance of the stay put policy to a fire in the escape route no i don't don't feel that that was ever addressed right

01:41:53 addressed right mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes

01:41:56 yes i think it is thank you mr chapman we'll have a short break now we'll come back at 20 to 12 please and as with all other witnesses i must ask you not to talk to anyone about your

01:42:07 ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence

01:42:08 evidence or anything relating to it while you're out of the room okay all right thanks so much like to give the usher please

01:42:24 right 2012 please

01:58:56 would you ask mr chapman to come back in

01:59:00 please

01:59:12 all right mr chapman ready to carry on yep i'll let you pour some water first thank you

01:59:21 okay when you're ready just a minute mr chairman thank you mr chapman um can i then turn next to how the complaint about the gas pipes progressed can we start with rbk five zeroes

01:59:35 can we start with rbk five zeroes one six six please five zeroes one six six

01:59:43 uh this is uh an email on the 21st of april

01:59:46 april uh 2017 uh from uh the gtla to laura johnson and sasha jevons

01:59:58 laura johnson and sasha jevons you see that yep

02:00:02 and it's the one second email down i should have pointed that out to you halfway down the page and again a host of other copies and uh if you turn the page to page two

02:00:16 you could see uh that it starts uh with your reference um to uh the email of the 30th of march and then if you go to page three just very

02:00:27 if you go to page three just very briefly

02:00:28 briefly you can see that it was signed by you and tundial dairu

02:00:35 going back if we can to your reference on page two to the email of the 30th of march 2017 was that a reference to the two emails

02:00:46 was that a reference to the two emails of the 28th of march each from sasha jevons and laura johnson respectively that we looked at or was there a further email of the 30th of march

02:01:01 0.3 are you making reference to that i'm making a point i'm making a reference to the very first thing you say in the email

02:01:07 email uh yes it must have been from the email i'm not sure i think i maybe was addressing both i was accepting that i'd received both of their emails but the way i'd started with dear

02:01:16 with dear laura and dear sasha yes it's just the daytime oh yeah yeah so i think just to be clear the date's an error for the 28th oh okay yeah and i'm that that's what it looks like and okay it's asking you whether i'm right

02:01:27 right um i'm not entirely sure all right uh now going to the substance of

02:01:34 of of this uh email if we go to page three we've seen the signature uh and on page one to two we've seen the multiple recipients um again same question

02:01:47 um again same question why were others copied into the email

02:01:53 i don't know right if we go to page two

02:02:00 it says 90 percent of the residents in grenfell tower signed the letter for kctmo the tenant-led organization regulated and appointed by our landlord rbkc

02:02:10 rbkc to implement the following urgent issues and concerns raised by us now just pausing there which letter were residents asked to sign

02:02:20 sign so i think this is in relation to to um basically the points that we were making uh we were i say we is in the grenfell

02:02:31 uh we were i say we is in the grenfell tower leaseholder association not me personally basically when people came into the building um i believe shah maybe today as well were basically talking to people and then

02:02:42 basically talking to people and then asking them to to sign what we were saying essentially to put a name so that's where this 90 of residence comes from out of the people in the building

02:02:53 right so

02:02:59 were you stuck where you and or charles and tunde standing at the front door taking views as people came in and out how does it work i mean i personally wasn't but from what i remember from

02:03:11 wasn't but from what i remember from what i remember i'm not entirely sure but i'm pretty sure they were standing uh by the entrance talking to people coming in and out right and and did they when they signed did they get a chance

02:03:23 when they signed did they get a chance to read the letter fully so that they understood what it was they were signing do you know uh i'm not i'm not sure to be honest i can't answer that right

02:03:35 and staying on the same page you can see uh that it says in the third or fourth paragraph down the kctmo the tenant led organization

02:03:46 tenant led organization regulated and appointed by landlord ibkc need to implement the following urgent issues and concerns raised by us and then you set them out um one need an independent advisor

02:03:59 out um one need an independent advisor to investigate the root cause of the major gas leakages in grenfell tower two need to stop further extension of the gas pipe work on the north and east side of the building with immediate effect until all the

02:04:10 with immediate effect until all the investigation is completed need an explanation as to why the national grid knocking on individual flat to gain access to carry out their work on 20th of april 2017 three independent investigation by

02:04:22 three independent investigation by independent adjudicator health and safety inspector and fire brigade inspectors funded by the rbkc and kctmo on following areas and then there has set out one to carry out full health and safety

02:04:34 one to carry out full health and safety inspection of physical aspect of the premises including structural problem as well as on-site documentation two observation made and hazards identified three level of risk to gas pipe at stairwells now extending

02:04:45 to gas pipe at stairwells now extending to north east side in grenfell tower taking into account level of vandalisms and anti-social elements at stairwells any recommendation necessary to ensure ongoing legal compliance

02:04:57 ongoing legal compliance then there are other matters as well concierge

02:05:01 concierge absence of consultation involving the building insurance company and their opinions

02:05:06 opinions uh and removal if unsafe uh and there are various other matters as well that are set out now just at this point it's right isn't it the rbkc and the tmo

02:05:18 it the rbkc and the tmo had told you that they had a health and safety manager janice ray and an independent fire safety assessor and

02:05:25 and and had met with or again to meet with the lfb

02:05:30 the lfb um in the light of that why did you still consider that it was necessary to have an

02:05:34 have an independent advisor i think going to my earlier point of of thinking that the the the the person that was going to be

02:05:45 the person that was going to be instructed by the rbkc or tmo would not be fully independent this is why we were really pushing it um that we would want to get someone completely independent or obviously be

02:05:56 completely independent or obviously be paid by us but i think we we uh in our in our minds were debating as to how

02:06:06 to how independent it could really be so was the problem with independence the fact that the fire reconcessor was being paid by the tma i think so yes but why would that

02:06:17 i think so yes but why would that compromise their independence

02:06:20 it's a good point i'm not entirely sure because if we paid them it would be the same thing for us exactly i take that but yeah i think we we just didn't believe right that this person would be fully independent

02:06:32 person would be fully independent for because of the way that we've been emails that we've had back before right i mean was there anything in in the past in your experience with carl stokes the fra that might lead you to think that

02:06:44 fra that might lead you to think that his independence had been compromised leaving aside the question

02:06:49 question of payment um no i mean i the name didn't really mean anything to me anyway at the time i didn't know that name now um if we go to tm00846947

02:07:09 and look at page two on that page you can see that there's an email on the uh 22nd of april saturday at 9 37 in the morning from you to victoria borick

02:07:22 to victoria borick and shea lorc i think appears to be lady borick's secretary copy to tunderu and the gtla subject serious concerns of grenfell tower

02:07:34 tower and if we look down uh page two to the first subheading number one

02:07:41 one you can see that you address gas and pipe main exposed in communal areas and you say we were advised that the national grid disconnected the mains gas supply to the tower on the 30th of september due to an

02:07:53 on the 30th of september due to an apparent gas leak as a result in recent months the national grid has been installing a mains gas supply pipe through the communal staircase please see attached picture which we believe to be unsafe and have

02:08:05 which we believe to be unsafe and have requested an independent fire strike health and safety report in order to ensure the fire ensure the safety of residents in the building regrettably rbkc has failed to facilitate this request and has advised

02:08:16 facilitate this request and has advised us that their internal department has done this

02:08:18 done this yet we believe this to have bias in the interests

02:08:21 interests of rbkc rather than a non-biased independent body despite the repeated requests of liaison with senior members of the rbkc they have failed to return with sufficient proof that the national grid

02:08:32 sufficient proof that the national grid has completed the works to a high work to a high standard

02:08:40 and then you go on in the next paragraph to refer

02:08:43 to refer to the concerns you have vandalism increase of number of people smoking in the communal stairway yes next to a gas pipe

02:08:52 pipe and vandalism to windows and doors in the communal areas which you believe could be life-threatening my question is why did you write to your member of parliament at the same time as renewing your

02:09:03 at the same time as renewing your request to the tmo and rbkc

02:09:08 i think the reason why i wrote to the mp was because okay yeah we're sending emails and trying to push rbkc but almost to to kind of just clarify all the points

02:09:20 to kind of just clarify all the points make her aware of it so that she could push or at least inquire from her side because

02:09:26 because you know the the role of the mp is any way to to take constitution constituents issues if you feel they're not being resolved and obviously we sent many emails and for whatever reason we felt they weren't being resolved

02:09:37 resolved so that was why i found it necessary i thought that that is like a different way in

02:09:41 way in take aside the complaints procedure that's just another way to to at least get to the people inside and just making it having more of a kind of not public awareness but you know other

02:09:52 not public awareness but you know other senior people within society that might be able to to stamp their feet something like that i see now in that first paragraph i read to you at the very end of it you could see you

02:10:03 at the very end of it you could see you say

02:10:05 say that you believe this to have bias in the interests of rbkc rather than a non-biased independent body

02:10:13 body what was the basis for your allegation that rbkc's internal department was biased

02:10:24 just a feeling based on what uh how things might work um just a a perceived um

02:10:35 a perceived um impression maybe not in not based on anything but just what i had in my mind and had what you had in your mind uh evolved from something you yourself

02:10:46 uh evolved from something you yourself had seen and heard directly or or something that you'd heard through conversations with tunderu think understanding what happened in the

02:10:57 think understanding what happened in the past when things were raised from you know from what i'd heard with people within the building um knowing that you know i i had heard before

02:11:07 before at that point i knew the things that happened with regards to the refurbishment and people disagreeing and tried to

02:11:13 tried to you know discuss things with the council just generally not not anything specific and i think that kind of had obviously made me made me have this impression that the council

02:11:25 that the council would essentially be against the residents um because of you know they might think that well they keep complaining so um

02:11:36 well they keep complaining so um you know we need to we need to prove that we're right i think that was the impression that i had at the time that it was kind of like a us against them even though my view was that we need to work together to get this resolved

02:11:50 you say the impression you had at the time

02:11:54 time that it was like us against them even though

02:11:58 though your view was that you needed to work together to get this resolved are you drawing a distinction between the us and them idea

02:12:06 them idea coming from somewhere else

02:12:09 as distinct from your own personal view that you needed to cooperate together so i think my my personal view at the time was

02:12:19 time was regardless of who's right and who's wrong or what the issue is we need to all work together to at least sort these issues out okay knowing that you know in any part of society people will think someone's

02:12:31 of society people will think someone's trying to achieve this and someone's trying to achieve that my view was let's just be clear and factual with what we think are the problems

02:12:39 problems and that was exactly what i tried to do with all my kind of communication and where i felt was necessary to make it stronger i would that was why i tried to to address it but i i did try and you know

02:12:51 but i i did try and you know like this thing about the bias i wanted to show that i i thought that this was a thing

02:12:57 thing or the this was something that would also maybe play a fact which is why i put this on this email and was it really your own personal opinion that rbkc was biased or was it were you trying to reflect the

02:13:08 or was it were you trying to reflect the opinions of others in gtla

02:13:12 i think it was people's opinions generally i wouldn't say specifically gtla but i think people's opinions generally that i'd spoke to around the building

02:13:20 building right and your personal view

02:13:24 i would say that my personal view is i just took a balanced approach to the facts at the time and what was the issues

02:13:31 issues yes now um can we go then to

02:13:42 tmo420846963

02:13:46 um this is an email uh and you can't see it on this page but it's from anthony cheney who's head of

02:13:54 head of contract management at the tmo dated the fifth of may 2017. and it's it comes from the complaints team as you can see to gtla

02:14:05 and also to laura johnson as you can see and your email address is not listed in the recipients here did you receive a copy yourself

02:14:18 i believe so but i can't remember specifically i mean when emails came to grenfell leaseholders association did they automatically get forwarded on to you i think they were norm they were normally forwarded on i'm not sure if it

02:14:29 normally forwarded on i'm not sure if it was automatic but they were normally forwarded

02:14:30 forwarded i follow do do you remember receiving or seeing a a uh this email or a copy of it i believe so with this stage one complaint it looks like the format that i've seen before right

02:14:43 uh and in fact we know that you did see it at some stage because you responded to it together with mr abaderi later in that month the email address

02:14:54 later in that month the email address sorry the email is addressed to uh to the association dear grenfell tower leaseholders association stage one complaint and it's given a number

02:15:05 complaint and it's given a number and had you made a formal complaint as a you had the gtla made a formal complaint to the tmo before this

02:15:14 i'm not sure right had you intended your email of the 21st of april 2017 that we've just looked at to be a formal complaint to the tmo uh yes i think all of my emails i

02:15:26 uh yes i think all of my emails i thought would be treated as a formal complaint i see that includes those in march as well correct yes yes now if we go to page three in this document uh you can see under

02:15:39 in this document uh you can see under conclusion uh mr cheney says uh this response together with the previous communication has reiterated kctma's continuing endeavour

02:15:50 endeavour to address your concerns regarding a number of these items national grid have confirmed that the work they've undertaken meets with with safety requirements we have sought the views of the fire brigade and kc

02:16:01 the views of the fire brigade and kc tmo's fire safety consultant both of whom confirm that the works meet necessary standards and are appropriate in the context of the fire strategy for grenfell tower we do not see it necessary to instruct or fund

02:16:12 necessary to instruct or fund an independent adjudicator at this time national grid hold the responsibility to inspect

02:16:17 inspect and ensure gas safety on their network in multi-occupancy buildings our independent fire consultant confirm that the programme to complete the bar rated boxing will address any concerns

02:16:28 rated boxing will address any concerns can surrounding the stairwell i would again offer the suggestion of a meeting with our neighborhood management team and suggest that a member of national grid is invited to discuss any further concerns you have in regard to this to cover all items

02:16:39 to this to cover all items to your satisfaction i'm happy to facilitate their attendance and address any questions you may have personally based on the information available i do not uphold your complaint did you take up the offer to meet with

02:16:51 did you take up the offer to meet with the neighborhood management team and a member of the national grid as offered here

02:16:59 i don't think at this stage we were we've taken up the offer that was offered to us um i think it was it was something that we were

02:17:08 we were considering what we should do next

02:17:12 so i think the answer is no you didn't no no we didn't why didn't you i'm not sure i don't remember right was there any discussion within the gtla about whether you should take up the

02:17:23 about whether you should take up the offer

02:17:24 offer made by mr cheney that we've just seen here

02:17:28 here i think we did talk about this in the sense of

02:17:31 sense of that before meeting before my time there that there was you know they tried to arrange meetings in the past to discuss things but then they could never get the availability of

02:17:42 they could never get the availability of the other person i believe that was discussed at that point but i don't remember any more detail from that right

02:17:54 and we then move to stage two of these this complaint um tmo two zeros eight four

02:18:02 four six nine seven seven please

02:18:14 this is an email from the gtla date of the 13th of may 2017 from

02:18:21 2017 from you and tundial awadiro

02:18:26 to mr chaney and the long list of others again we see the um the cast of copyes there and your email says if we just

02:18:37 and your email says if we just go scroll down a bit you and the complaints team have carried out an investigation into our case and review the available background information including the previously provided response by sasha jevons

02:18:46 jevons executive director of operations unfortunately we found your investigation neither open or transparent and not based on fact but misleading information given by your neighborhood management team she would therefore intend to take our issues and concerns to stage two and

02:18:58 issues and concerns to stage two and final level for the following reasons that's the email we looked at at the very start of your evidence and i asked you about

02:19:04 you about stage two and final there uh but on a different point within that paragraph why did you consider that there was a lack of transparency in the investigation

02:19:16 transparency in the investigation into your complaint i think we felt the the

02:19:20 the the information we've been being was being answered was just very generic not addressing the specific things that we had we had this we had raised in in my opinion what

02:19:33 we had raised in in my opinion what would you have liked to have seen that wasn't generic but was specific i think breaking down almost every point and coming up with an answer for every point of what we'd raise

02:19:44 point of what we'd raise whether they believed it was whatever they believe and just what the answer would have been to that yeah and when you're referring here to misleading information you see you say in the fourth line but

02:19:57 you see you say in the fourth line but not based on fact but misleading information given by your neighborhood management team uh was that misleading information relating to an issue concerning fire safety

02:20:10 safety i can't remember what what that was there for why and why i put that in right you see if we go if we go down to page two to at the

02:20:21 if we go down to page two to at the bottom of the page uh we can see that

02:20:27 there's a heading anti-social behavior serious crime an incident at grenfell tower

02:20:32 tower and then there's a quotation that you make

02:20:36 make from their email our neighborhood management team is investigated and then you say underneath the quotation we are shocked and horrified of the misleading information given by our neighborhood management team when the crime in grenfell tower is

02:20:47 when the crime in grenfell tower is extremely high and it's based on fact of life at grenfell tower residents experiencing on a regular basis

02:20:58 on a regular basis so the reference is this right to to misleading information in the first paragraph is that in fact a reference uh to gtl's complaints about anti-social behavior

02:21:10 behavior i believe so yes yes now towards the end of this email if we go to page five this is quite a long email but in fact i think what would be helpful is if we instead of going straight to page five

02:21:21 instead of going straight to page five if we scroll through it we can do that we can pick it up at the bottom of page two as we have anti-social behavior and then go to page three where you can see that

02:21:32 see that uh mr chaney deals with noise

02:21:37 and then lifts at the bottom of page three and then on page four concierge and security and then item six and then we can see his conclusion he

02:21:49 and then we can see his conclusion he looks from that at least that he has dealt point by point with the complaints in the 21st of april email we saw earlier is that fair yeah that's fair

02:22:02 is that fair yeah that's fair and then on page five uh three paragraphs uh done you say we the residents of grenfell tower demand the kctmo as a tenant led

02:22:14 demand the kctmo as a tenant led organization reassure us by providing us the copy of the reports from the london fire brigade health and safety inspector and confirmation from the national grid the location of the main gas pipe is safe and kctmo and rbkc are prepared to

02:22:27 safe and kctmo and rbkc are prepared to take full responsibility of any fire risk hazard now in caps and in the foreseeable future we must explore every avenue and must ensure our managing agents kctmo and rbkc deal with

02:22:39 managing agents kctmo and rbkc deal with our serious issues and concerns in the first instance with an open mind before we can take it further to housing ombudsman or consider legal proceeding with a view to save costs and undue stress to us

02:22:50 to save costs and undue stress to us now we can see here that you are still after

02:22:53 after asking for reports from the lfb the health and safety inspector and confirmation from the national grid have you been provided with any reports from any of those bodies to date no not did you ever

02:23:05 those bodies to date no not did you ever get them

02:23:05 get them no did you press for those even outside the complaints procedure after this uh no i think we stuck within this procedure right even within this procedure did you press

02:23:17 even within this procedure did you press for sight of those documents that you'd asked for

02:23:20 asked for i think because we'd asked for them already that was enough right did anybody ever explain to you why they weren't prepared to give you these documents no did you ever ask for an explanation

02:23:32 no did you ever ask for an explanation as to why

02:23:33 as to why you shouldn't see these documents no why's that um

02:23:46 why's that um i think my if you're asking if you're asking rbkc in the kctmo that to me it's quite straightforward

02:23:57 that to me it's quite straightforward you ask them for something and they give it to you and i don't think at the time i ever thought you need to go around them to try and get something just if you ask them that should be enough

02:24:06 enough that we are the customer ultimately to the service that they're providing yes yes and we can see you didn't get it my question is simply why you didn't continue to press for them i don't know right did

02:24:17 them i don't know right did was there any discussion within the gtla about whether you should continue to press for these documents not that i remember

02:24:26 uh moving on in time to early june 2017 if we can

02:24:34 we can uh tmo one double zero one seven four one eight

02:24:38 one eight please one double zero one seven 17418 now this is an email the 6th of june

02:24:48 2017 from katherine dak to the gtla subject stage 2 response

02:24:57 and it's an email that is signed on if you go to page 3 you can see by peter madison the director of assets and regeneration you

02:25:08 director of assets and regeneration you see that

02:25:09 see that yes and uh if we go back to page one we can see that mr madison deals with your stage two complaint response confirms receipt of the complaint

02:25:23 confirms receipt of the complaint uh and says in this second line of the first main paragraph that it's been passed to him as senior manager responsible for the services that you complained about and he says as part of the complaints

02:25:35 and he says as part of the complaints procedure i've carried out an investigation of your case and reviewed all available background information thank you for your further correspondence relating to a number of issues

02:25:44 issues you have raised relating to grenfell tower

02:25:48 tower this matter is being considered at stage two and then he sets out his summary of the understanding of the complaint and then the first item he deals with there you can see is gas mains located in stairwell and he says i'll read it

02:26:00 in stairwell and he says i'll read it all to you you complain that residents are concerned about the health and safety implications of national grid locating the new gas mains in the stairwell of grenfell tower the correspondence from sasha jevons and anthony cheney has explained

02:26:11 anthony cheney has explained the responsibility for this work rests with national grid and they are responsible for ensuring the works meet with the necessary standards kctmo has reviewed the proposals with our

02:26:22 reviewed the proposals with our fire safety consultant and with the fire brigade who have confirmed that the proposals are acceptable however at this stage the works are not complete and national grid are yet to complete the work to install a rated boxing around the

02:26:34 to install a rated boxing around the pipe i therefore propose to keep this complaint open until this work is complete at which point we will review the works and take further professional advice to confirm that the installation is satisfactory

02:26:45 that the installation is satisfactory were you satisfied with that response i think the fact they kept the complaint open and they recognized that the the work wasn't complete i wouldn't say it was satisfied but at least that

02:26:57 it was satisfied but at least that they weren't saying it was nothing

02:27:04 yes can i then go to different topics uh and to start with some questions about the refurbishment itself can i go please with you to ryd409231

02:27:28 now this is a tmo ryden grenfell regeneration newsletter dated june 2014

02:27:36 june 2014 uh and i think you said you were familiar with this kind of document we saw another one earlier this one's dated june 2014 so shortly after you've moved into the tower and if we go to page two uh you can see

02:27:50 and if we go to page two uh you can see um it says uh after giving some contact details uh drop in

02:27:56 drop in and find out more the resident liaison team will be holding regular coffee mornings in their office the times will be on a new information board to be put up in the main entrance all residents are welcome

02:28:07 residents are welcome and we look forward to seeing you there did you know about these drop-in sessions

02:28:12 sessions i knew about them but i couldn't attend them because i was working shifts at the time

02:28:16 time right do you recall how frequently they were held i don't remember the frequency right do you know other people in the building who would go to those meetings no right

02:28:30 did you yourself feel that you were provided with opportunities to understand and ask questions about the refurbishment works

02:28:41 the only part of the refurbishment at the time when i moved into the the building that i understood that we there was kind of a consultation or there were like an informed group was regarding the

02:28:52 informed group was regarding the installation of the heat exchange units and i remember going to a meeting about that that's the only thing i remember having any kind of attending any direct meeting about something regarding the refurbishment

02:29:04 something regarding the refurbishment i understand that it's not quite an answer to my questions i'll just just ask it again did you did you at the time did you think that you had been given sufficient opportunity to understand uh and if necessary ask questions about

02:29:17 uh and if necessary ask questions about the refurbishment or any particular aspect of it me personally no uh you say you personally know do you mean you did you think at the time you hadn't been given a sufficient opportunity

02:29:28 been given a sufficient opportunity in terms of the refurbishment generally i think because a lot of the the things around it were before i kind of moved in in mind under my understanding it was it happened before i moved in and then

02:29:40 it happened before i moved in and then it took a while before i came became interested because if if you like it wasn't my my direct issue when i first moved in because it wasn't my

02:29:51 because it wasn't my i didn't own the property if you like right

02:29:55 right did you receive or did you see documents such as this the regeneration newsletter yes you did did you read them uh yeah skim read them i would say

02:30:07 uh yeah skim read them i would say right can we go to art402606

02:30:16 2606

02:30:31 uh now this is uh one from july 2014. memorable because of the digger on the front

02:30:36 front the ramp is demolished uh do you remember receiving this one particularly

02:30:45 yes you do uh under the foot of page one you can see it says coffee mornings successful coffee mornings were held on 26 june and 10th july

02:30:56 26 june and 10th july those who came told us they found it really helpful to have their questions answered

02:31:02 i take it that you weren't able to go to those coffee mornings correct and if we go to page two it says under so what's next one christina

02:31:15 under so what's next one christina stefanu

02:31:16 stefanu whose photograph is on the left will be visiting each household you will have received the letter inviting you to make an appointment if you do not make one then she will still need to visit you and will have to call on you unannounced

02:31:27 and will have to call on you unannounced did you uh or naomi meet christina stefanu either at this time or afterwards yes we did meet her at some point

02:31:38 yes we did meet her at some point it was it in your flat or at a meeting i think we arranged a meeting for her to come to our flat i see and uh what was that connected with that meeting connected with i can't remember that right

02:31:50 remember that right and what happened at the meeting well i think the meeting came from this letter that's like that's why we arranged for her to come i i can't remember the content of what

02:32:01 i i can't remember the content of what we discussed but i do remember coming into the flat right and what impression did you gain uh from that meeting uh

02:32:12 uh from that meeting uh about ryden and their rlo and their system for dealing with matters of concern um i think at that stage we didn't have necessarily any big

02:32:23 necessarily any big big issues of concern anyway but felt the the

02:32:26 the the the process that she came in and whatever we spoke i remember it being quite positive although i don't know the content i do remember you know thinking that okay they're trying to engage and keep us

02:32:37 they're trying to engage and keep us informed right now and if you go to the bottom of page two

02:32:42 two you can see that it says emergency fire arrangements our long-standing state policy stays in force until you are told otherwise this means that unless there's a fire in your flat or in the hallway or outside your flat

02:32:53 flat you should stay inside your flat this is because grenfell was designed according to rigorous fire safety standards also the new front doors for each flat can withstand a fire for up to 30 minutes which gives plenty of time for the fire brigade to arrive did you

02:33:05 for the fire brigade to arrive did you read that when you when you saw this regeneration newsletter yeah because i remember at the time something about thinking the hallway outside your flat was slightly different to

02:33:15 to what we previously thought in terms of not just within your your flat that makes sense um i'm not sure it does could you just so before that we knew that we the stay

02:33:26 so before that we knew that we the stay put policy if the fire was in your flat but this one seemed i remember being slightly different because it was about the hallway outside your floor in the third line there yes a cersei i see and that struck a chord

02:33:38 a cersei i see and that struck a chord with you did it yeah because it just made me think that's a bit different slightly different to what we had before right i see and uh apart from that

02:33:51 and uh apart from that impression of difference what other impression or understanding did you gain from reading reading that

02:34:00 at the time there was nothing right nothing else from that now yes but yes um windows now in your statements you've discussed in some detail your concerns about

02:34:11 about the windows and their installation so i think i only need to ask you one or two additional questions can we go to your first witness statement please at page three and look at paragraph 11 together you

02:34:23 and look at paragraph 11 together you say there

02:34:27 page two i'm sorry page two after the new end days where new windows were installed it became clear that they were badly installed the windows themselves seemed fine it was the bad installation and gaps around the windows that caused

02:34:38 the windows that caused problems and if you go to page three paragraph 14. you say i contacted the tmo about this issue on the 25th of march 20

02:34:49 the 25th of march 20 20 that says 18 i think that's uh it's actually 17. um i was told to contact ryden about this i was put in contact with ben bailey at harley facades and had email contact with him i exhibit this email chain as lc1 this

02:35:02 i exhibit this email chain as lc1 this email change shows i emailed ben bailey at harley facades on 14th may 2017. i attach six photographs of the windows to this email which i exhibit individually and then you do the same

02:35:13 individually and then you do the same and then you say i also describe the problems with the windows in the email i will not repeat the contents here but i described gaps between the window frames and walls and explained you could feel the wind through these gaps

02:35:26 through these gaps now uh it's right isn't it that those uh windows or gaps weren't fixed by the time of the fire correct do you know whether anybody else

02:35:37 correct do you know whether anybody else had experienced issues with the windows or problems with the windows that you've described here

02:35:44 no i wasn't aware of anyone else having problems with the windows right did you or anybody else identify the poor installation of the windows as a fire safety issue no can i just ask you a question or two

02:35:58 no can i just ask you a question or two about

02:35:58 about text burst um if you go to

02:36:05 tm00853697 and turn to page 15. i'm going to show you part of the witness name of claire williams of the tmo to the inquiry dated 20th of

02:36:17 of the tmo to the inquiry dated 20th of january 2020 where she describes the text burst system and at paragraph 70 she says the system was piloted at grenfell tower and publicized within

02:36:28 and publicized within the organization i recall using it to send out information to grenfell residents in relation to the refurbishment for example if a list were out of action or to advise them of upcoming resident consultation meetings i also recall the call center asking

02:36:41 i also recall the call center asking asked me to use it to update residents when a lift was out of order at grenfell tower

02:36:46 tower were you aware that the tmo operated a text burst system during the refurbishment whereby it could send text messages to all residents about the refurbishment no

02:36:58 no did say i take it you've never gotten it no no i don't think we ever received any or ever knew about it right did you ever register your mobile or did naomi ever register her mobile with the tmo service to be able to receive

02:37:09 the tmo service to be able to receive text burst messages yeah if there was if there was anything like that that we had the opportunity to we would have registered right do i take it from that you were never told that you could register to get text best messages

02:37:20 get text best messages correct right

02:37:28 did you ever get texts from the tmo about lifts no did you ever get the text ever get texts from the tmo about anything to do with the refurbishment or

02:37:39 anything to do with the refurbishment or the maintenance of the building i don't recall any no what about naomi lee do you recall her ever receiving any texts like that i don't recall her receiving and if she hadn't received some she would have told

02:37:50 hadn't received some she would have told me anyway

02:37:51 me anyway yes um now mr chapman and mr chairman we've

02:37:55 we've come to the end of our prepared questions right there are one or two further questions i might need to get back over or um i've been asked to ask which i will certainly examine but i think given we've got plenty of

02:38:07 but i think given we've got plenty of time

02:38:08 time um before one o'clock unusually particularly for me uh we might want to take 20 minutes yes rather than the usual that won't put us in any difficulty no because the next

02:38:19 us in any difficulty no because the next witness i don't think is going to be available until until 2 o'clock right well mr chapman as you heard mr militz say he thinks he's asked

02:38:27 asked most if not quite all the questions he needs to ask you and we need to provide an opportunity for other people to suggest further questions so we'll have a break now we'll take a slightly longer break than

02:38:39 we'll take a slightly longer break than usual we'll come back at 20 to 1 please and uh as i said you before please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it when they're out of the room okay understood we'll

02:38:51 out of the room okay understood we'll see you at 21. thank you very much

02:39:04 right mr minute thank you twenty to one

02:39:08 please

02:58:22 would you ask mr chapman to come back in

02:58:30 please

02:58:39 all right mr chapman well we'll see if you've got any more questions for you okay all right yes mr miller yes mr chairman mr chapman i have one observational question for you uh and that is that during the

02:58:50 uh and that is that during the refurbishment works between 2014 and august 2016 did you notice the fire control switch on the ground floor by the lifts yes

02:59:04 by the lifts yes can you describe what you saw um i think it was

02:59:08 it was like a silver box with a i don't know a square thing for a key i imagine to turn that that's what i think might be right and what sort of condition was it in do

02:59:20 and what sort of condition was it in do you remember i would say good condition right well um mr chapman you'll be glad to know that i have no further questions for you

02:59:28 for you uh and it remains only for me to thank you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful yes and mr chapman is right that i should thank you on behalf not only of

02:59:39 should thank you on behalf not only of myself but my fellow panel members for coming along to answer questions today it really has been very helpful and useful to hear what you have to tell us so

02:59:48 so thank you very much thank you and now you're free to go thanks good thank you

03:00:04 nothing mr millett um we have another witness today don't we but he's going to give evidence from abroad he is uh mr chairman by video link from overseas um and and he is ready to go but not until two o'clock because that

03:00:16 but not until two o'clock because that is when we've told him he will be ready to go so um say i'm i don't know whether it's uh good or bad but it necessitates a longer lunch break just as a fact as a fact

03:00:28 just as a fact as a fact yeah all right well that in that case we'll break now we can all have the benefit

03:00:33 benefit of a slightly longer lunch break and we'll come back ready to start his evidence at two o'clock yes thank you thank you very much two

03:00:50 o'clock

03:01:22 you