Testimony from David Collins, former chair of Grenfell Compact, about resident concerns during the refurbishment, failures in consultation and complaints processes, and TMO's lack of accountability.
00:00:18 yes mr millet now our next witness i think is mr collins yes that's right that's right mr chairman mr collins that we are taking whom we are taking by video link from overseas yes um good afternoon mr
00:00:31 overseas yes um good afternoon mr collins
00:00:33 collins good afternoon and can i just ask can you see me and hear me clearly i can good thank you very much um well thank you for making yourself available to give evidence you should have on your
00:00:45 to give evidence you should have on your screen the words of the affirmation is that uh is that there for you i do good could i ask you to make the affirmation then please i do solemnly sincerely and truly
00:00:57 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare
00:00:59 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
00:01:05 truth very good thank you very much now um can i just run through a couple of things before i invite mr millet to put some questions to you
00:01:16 some questions to you first of all and i've done this with every witness who's given evidence over a link of this kind can i ask you to confirm that you're alone in the room from which you're giving evidence i am thank you
00:01:29 evidence i am thank you can i ask you to confirm if you would that your mobile phone is in another room uh please
00:01:38 it's i want me to put it i have it on the airplane um well is it possible for you to put it somewhere
00:01:46 somewhere completely out of reach [Music]
00:01:51 [Music] right yes could you do that i'm sorry to be so
00:02:06 demanding thank you very much and finally could i ask you to confirm that you don't have any other electronic device with you that's capable of receiving messages
00:02:17 that's capable of receiving messages i have not no i'm sorry we have to go through all that but it's been a protocol which we've applied to all the witnesses who are giving evidence from remote locations for reasons which i i probably don't need to
00:02:28 reasons which i i probably don't need to explain
00:02:29 explain we'll be i've been inviting mr millet to put some questions to you in just a moment can i just tell you first that we shall have a break during the afternoon somewhere around about 3 15 3 20 or
00:02:42 somewhere around about 3 15 3 20 or thereabouts but if you feel that you need a break for any other reason at some other time will you just indicate that and we'll do our best to accommodate you all right um
00:02:52 um is there anything you'd like to ask me before we start no no right thank you thank you very much in that case i'll invite mr millet to put some questions to you yes mr
00:03:03 to put some questions to you yes mr miller thank you very much mr chairman uh mr collins good afternoon uh i i can see you because i'm looking into the monitor can you see me and hear me i can thank you
00:03:14 you uh can i start by thanking you very much for coming to the inquiry even though remotely and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you my questions are intended to be short and simple
00:03:25 intended to be short and simple but if you have any difficulty understanding a question or you would like me to put it a different way or to break it up i'm very happy to do that as the chairman has just said we'll take a scheduled break during the course of
00:03:37 a scheduled break during the course of the afternoon but if you need a break at any other time please just let us know and we can take a short break can i also ask you please to keep your voice up and clear so that the transcriber who's sitting in
00:03:49 so that the transcriber who's sitting in this room
00:03:50 this room with us here can get down what you're saying
00:03:53 saying also not to nod or shake your head because
00:03:57 because a yes or no doesn't go into the transcript you have to say and now you've made one witness statement to the inquiry and you'll find it on the screen i hope in front of you when it's brought up it's iws402334
00:04:12 it's iws402334 can we just have the first page of that there
00:04:26 iws yes there it is can you confirm for us please that is the first page of your witness statement to the inquiry dated 21st of september 2020.
00:04:38 21st of september 2020. that is can you please go to page 32
00:04:43 there's a signature there it's quite faint above the date underneath the statement of truth is that your signature that is uh have you read this statement recently
00:04:54 recently i have and can you confirm that its contents are true as far as as i can tell yes now this is a very detailed statement
00:05:05 now this is a very detailed statement which will be published on the inquiries website
00:05:08 website as of now later today my questions are intended to be directed to any further assistance that you can give us in addition to that statement can i begin uh with some background very briefly it's right isn't it i think that
00:05:20 briefly it's right isn't it i think that you lived at flat 185 in grenfell tower on floor 18. i did and you did say from april 2014
00:05:31 i did and you did say from april 2014 until 31st of october 2016. i did you did uh and is it right that you rented your flat directly from the leaseholder of that flat tunde awaderu correct yes
00:05:45 tunde awaderu correct yes now we know that during your time as a resident you became the chair of grenfell compact and i'll come back to that at some point later on
00:05:58 can i start with some basic questions about fire safety information when you moved into grenfell tower what fire safety information if any were you given
00:06:10 none ever as far as i'm aware then there may have been a leaflet right i'm not saying so to be cleared did you ever see something called link magazine
00:06:22 i have whether it was the version
00:06:28 right did you get link magazine through the door
00:06:32 the door hmm i wouldn't recollect what about grenfell tower refurbishment newsletters i've seen it in other places right what
00:06:44 i've seen it in other places right what about grenfell tower refurbishment newsletters did you ever receive those yes you did did you read them
00:06:54 um not always no let's look and not fully necessarily right especially at first
00:07:06 forgive me mr collins it's my fault there's i think a slight delay on the line and i'm overspeaking i i don't mean to i'll bear that in mind can i ask you to look at a rt402606
00:07:30 can i ask you to look at a rt402606 that is a grenfell tower regeneration newsletter dated july 2014 just from the first page do you think that was familiar
00:07:43 i do not can we go to page two please and look at the bottom of that page you'll see the words emergency fire arrangements
00:07:54 arrangements and it says our long-standing stay-put policy stays in force until you are told otherwise
00:07:59 otherwise etc do you remember seeing that or receiving that i did know of the the procedure like i wasn't sure i wouldn't recommend
00:08:13 like i wasn't sure i wouldn't recommend i didn't feel like this is a story like i didn't feel like i would be safe to stay in the tower right if there was a fire were you clear in your mind about the fire safety
00:08:24 in your mind about the fire safety procedure
00:08:25 procedure to follow if there was a fire during sorry and i didn't know why i didn't feel safe but i didn't i felt like if there was a fire in the tower wouldn't be safe to stay in there
00:08:36 tower wouldn't be safe to stay in there right did you understand the fire safety procedures that this document was describing no not really right any of the stakehold policy
00:08:49 right any of the stakehold policy right did you have any information about emergency fire arrangements from any other source other than this newsletter that you can remember
00:09:02 i i heard from several sources at the right thing to do was to to stay in the tower what what what was the other sort of weight
00:09:13 the other sort of weight in a way someone coming to rescue well residents right in meetings they talked about the stay put
00:09:22 put strategy they talked about that's how we were
00:09:26 were supposed to act we didn't have a lot of information from the council or the tmo as far as i'm not i was aware did you ever visit the tmo website
00:09:41 i did but only to find out their service standards and whether they were met
00:09:51 were met were you aware that you could find fire safety advice on the tma website i was not
00:10:01 now i want to ask you some questions about communications with residents during the refurbishment and i'd like to start by looking at your statement on page six please
00:10:12 statement on page six please paragraphs 24-29
00:10:25 and
00:10:30 you
00:10:34 describe there the relationship between the tmo and residents
00:10:40 residents about the refurbishment and you say and i'm summarizing that you became aware that a majority of the residents of the tower had concerns about the refurbishment paragraph 25 there was a meeting on the
00:10:54 paragraph 25 there was a meeting on the 17th of march 2015 attended by over 100 residents and that's paragraph 27 as you can see on the screen and then you say in paragraph 26
00:11:05 and then you say in paragraph 26 by this time this is march 15 i had gravitated towards ed dufan you say and you say he was thinking most uh clearly about
00:11:17 he was thinking most uh clearly about how the community could respond he had the drive knowledge insight and determination to do something and to communicate the voice of residents in the face of very little response
00:11:29 response uh had you actually spoken to edward dufan about your own concerns i had and what was the occasion
00:11:44 um we had we spoke on several occasions
00:11:52 about the tower
00:11:55 our concerns i'm not sure um what do you mean
00:11:59 mean [Music]
00:12:02 [Music] had you shared your own private concerns with mr dufan sure i was very concerned about the tower and and everyone
00:12:15 the tower and and everyone in it really and the the treatment um how they were met or how they weren't listened to and it had been over multiple years it was my experience
00:12:28 multiple years it was my experience it wasn't just ed it was steve power um and other people quite a lot of people talked about the tower and the treatment of the tear the terrible treatment
00:12:40 the terrible treatment the words they would use would be terrible
00:12:44 yeah they were treated over years and i wasn't sure at first i wasn't sure about the assumptions but over time it became really clear
00:12:55 but over time it became really clear they weren't assuming the treatment can i ask you to go to
00:13:04 tm00837884
00:13:16 this is a letter dated the 24th of march 2015 to claire williams it's quite a long letter uh and the signature to it at the end is on page
00:13:28 signature to it at the end is on page five
00:13:29 five as we can just see that
00:13:39 so this is a letter can you confirm you wrote to claire williams on that date and the subject is grenfell tower and grenfell tower regeneration works yes
00:13:52 regeneration works yes yes yeah can we go to page two please
00:14:00 and if you look at the second paragraph down on that page you refer to a meeting and halfway through that paragraph you say the minutes of that meeting demonstrate
00:14:11 the minutes of that meeting demonstrate and i should have said this is a meeting on
00:14:13 on tuesday the 17th of march 2015. and you say the minutes of that meeting demonstrate an overwhelming community and shared sense of poor consultation
00:14:24 sense of poor consultation from tmo and ryden extreme dissatisfaction with the process of consultation concerns over the ongoing safety of work safety within residences and communal areas
00:14:34 areas and massive unhappiness with the quality of work being performed within and around people's homes and lives now you refer to the minutes there did you have the minutes of that meeting
00:14:45 did you have the minutes of that meeting to hand when you wrote this letter [Applause]
00:14:52 what's the date of the letter is the 24th of march 2015 i can show you the minutes if it would help your recollection you may not at the time right i may have had draft
00:15:06 at the time right i may have had draft minutes right i have i had spoken at least with with people
00:15:17 i'm certain the minutes exist and they're in my statement they do and my question was really whether you had the minutes
00:15:26 minutes in front of you when you wrote this letter i don't know i can't say for sure no thank you what prompted you to write this letter i could check um
00:15:39 i could check um well let me just show you the minutes and see if your recollection improves met3070936
00:15:52 please
00:15:57 and you can see that this is an email from you
00:16:01 from you to john willis
00:16:06 above it we've just skipped down from pat and this is the email you wrote on the 25th of march to claire williams the next day
00:16:14 next day uh and there are the minutes set up below can you see that um minutes from the grenfell tower emergency residence meeting yes yes yes does that prompt your record if
00:16:25 yes yes does that prompt your record if you just look at the uh if you look at the substance of it does that prompt your recollection as to whether you had the minutes in front of you when you wrote the letter i'm familiar with the minutes whether
00:16:36 i'm familiar with the minutes whether they were in front of me when i wrote the letter i'm not sure do you remember what prompted you to write i was aware of the content at the time that's for sure
00:16:48 at the time that's for sure do you remember what prompted you to write the letter
00:16:56 i don't know so many occasions
00:17:03 i thought about this but i don't know how to explain um i don't have the ability to go into the detail um
00:17:16 i'll try and keep it general then to help you i wasn't unsure i wasn't uncertain i didn't think the um the work was was done well
00:17:27 um the work was was done well did you expect this letter to be treated as a formal complaint to the tmo
00:17:38 i feared though at the time i wasn't aware or didn't have awareness of the complaints process
00:17:50 can we go back to the letter please just the previous document and look at page two tm008378884 page two
00:18:03 look at the bottom of the first page and i'll read it out to you it says
00:18:12 uh and we need to go to the bottom of page
00:18:15 page one please bottom of page one and over to page two
00:18:24 uh it says in the second last paragraph secondly please could you recognize that the consultation with grenfell tower residents and the nature of the proposed and ongoing construction works within the tower
00:18:35 within the tower are not fit for purpose even if tmo or ryden believe they have consulting with the residents those consultations have failed or have not been fit for purpose the fact that over half the residents of
00:18:46 the fact that over half the residents of the tower met last week and said so is evidence enough the consultation i have personally experienced involved a ryden site manager and liaison officer explaining in 2014 the minimal impact
00:19:00 explaining in 2014 the minimal impact the improvement works would have on the aesthetics and layout of the flat then in 2015 a ryden site manager and tma representative yourself explaining the extreme aesthetic layout and safety issues which will result
00:19:14 and safety issues which will result from the works when we are told pipes will be exposed spaces space lost fixtures and fittings will not be as we were told they would be hot pipes will be running where children's hands can reach them etc
00:19:25 etc and you continue um if you thought that the consultation wasn't fit for purpose as you say what form of consultation
00:19:36 as you say what form of consultation were you expecting
00:19:42 i wasn't expecting
00:19:47 i just wasn't certain it was working and then i wanted to
00:19:55 to improve like i wasn't certain it was working
00:20:00 working it wasn't working by all impressions it wasn't working whatever they were doing it wasn't working well what wasn't working specifically can you explain in a bit more detail what it was
00:20:12 explain in a bit more detail what it was that wasn't working as you saw it they changed the requirements um um in the
00:20:23 um um in the in the room um yeah where the hiu unit was the heat interface unit was to be placed right it was going to be in a kitchen
00:20:34 right it was going to be in a kitchen cupboard it was going to be concealed and then after there was no there's no communication essentially there was no consultation about the matter and they told us it was
00:20:46 about the matter and they told us it was going to be inserted somewhere where we didn't want it we believed there were safety issues associated with
00:20:59 where it was going to be put
00:21:08 we weren't we weren't sure about the
00:21:14 the design was not the design but the designs the specifications of the tower they didn't seem to miss regional quality
00:21:26 and i wasn't sure about the design solutions whether we could see them or not there was still concern amongst people in the tower
00:21:37 amongst people in the tower about the design of things that we couldn't see at the time can we go to met3070936 please
00:21:54 these are the minutes that i've just shown you
00:22:00 set out in your email to claire williams of the 25th of march 2015 and if we go to page two please
00:22:12 2015 and if we go to page two please you can see that under the subheading impact on community
00:22:20 and main concerns towards the top of your screen it says lack of meaningful consultation with residents and feeling of total disregard for tenant and leaseholders well-being information
00:22:31 and leaseholders well-being information provided to residents by tmo ryden keeps changing without any consultation or agreement from tenants and leaseholders residents not satisfied with the standard of works carried out in command hallway
00:22:42 hallway sorry communal hallway and will not allow this vandalism inside our homes grave concerns that standard of works that have already been carried out inside a number of residents properties by ryden concern that
00:22:53 by ryden concern that tmo ryden are using cheap materials and workmanship cutting corners and then if we look at the last paragraph on page two other issues you we see that there were concerns
00:23:04 you we see that there were concerns raised among other things about changing floor numbers without consulting residents and also problems with access into grenfell tower and lack of signposting do you see that
00:23:15 and lack of signposting do you see that now although all of those are true right so as we were aware that was that was true
00:23:23 true now you didn't attend this meeting did you
00:23:27 you no but you did see the minutes i think clearly because you've been able to yes dude i was involved thereafter did the specific concerns expressed in these minutes that i've
00:23:38 expressed in these minutes that i've picked out just now and read to you reflect your own individual concerns at the time they do feel that way you say they feel that way do you recall
00:23:49 that way do you recall look as well i do right well
00:23:56 i'm sorry i was about to ask you another question but did you want to add something
00:23:59 something at the end there a little forceful no no need that's okay were you personally aware which residents were raising these concerns
00:24:11 residents were raising these concerns about
00:24:12 about quality of work or lack of meaningful
00:24:16 consultation i do know it felt like
00:24:22 a good number a lot of people it wasn't everyone sure but there were a lot um complaining
00:24:33 there were a lot um complaining and how did you know that yourself hmm i was listening did you go but you weren't at the
00:24:44 meetings so who were you listening to
00:24:53 i was listening to lots of people i wasn't at all the meetings i wasn't some
00:25:00 some i was at meetings that
00:25:04 even before the 17th of march people were talking about the tower and what wasn't working well
00:25:15 working well we weren't sure i can't name individuals it isn't it doesn't feel like an individual thing to me it's like it wasn't everyone and yet
00:25:26 it's like it wasn't everyone and yet there were so many people talking about the tower and the problems with the refurbishment right did the minutes in the past an individual name like it it wasn't it wasn't ed's
00:25:39 like it it wasn't it wasn't ed's initiative you know it wasn't it wasn't one person trying to impersonate everyone you know people felt it wasn't right for a lot of
00:25:50 people felt it wasn't right for a lot of people
00:25:51 people it's how it so it felt and i can't name i mean say willy or i could say steve or whoever but it wasn't it wasn't one person do you agree
00:26:02 it wasn't one person do you agree that none of the concerns set out in these minutes uh certainly those i've picked out and read to you at least explicitly refer to fire safety
00:26:15 at least explicitly refer to fire safety correct yes it isn't a matter of fire safety
00:26:19 safety do you remember what if any specific fire safety matters residents were concerned about so far as regards the refurbishment
00:26:36 there weren't fire safety issues in particular i mean there are some and yet it isn't a matter of fire safety i mean it evidently was a fire safety
00:26:49 i mean it evidently was a fire safety problem
00:26:51 but it wasn't for safety it's about the culture
00:26:55 culture and the leadership for me in in my instance i'm looking at culture and leadership and how things are how things are done
00:27:06 how things are how things are done and not the fire safety issues in particular
00:27:12 i would say they're they're outcomes whether you have a safe building it's all about the leadership it is and about the culture it isn't about
00:27:25 sometimes the standards sometimes leadership is more important than the standards that you purport to follow can we go back to your letter
00:27:36 to follow can we go back to your letter tm00837884 page two please [Applause] and i'd just like to ask you about a paragraph on page two the third
00:27:48 paragraph on page two the third paragraph there where you ask miss williams claire williams
00:27:54 williams the following please can you address do you see
00:27:57 you see please can you address the failings in the consultation process and the poor standard of construction works being performed in and around the tower with immediate effect
00:28:08 tower with immediate effect how were you expecting claire williams to address the failings of the consultation process by which i mean what what is it exactly that you wanted her to do
00:28:20 i think it would have been simple to consult more and to involve residents in what they were doing and how they were involving residents
00:28:34 being specific more what more newsletters more meat can you give us an idea of what in practical terms you wanted to see that you weren't getting
00:28:46 we wanted a one-to-one yet it wasn't a one-to-one we wanted to be engaged as a group and not to be kept apart or to be
00:28:58 and not to be kept apart or to be separated
00:28:59 separated not to be able to meet remarkably we weren't able to meet with the tmo
00:29:06 the tmo or ryden we weren't allowed in their terms we weren't allowed to to be a group and to have a consultation
00:29:18 to be a group and to have a consultation and that made no sense did you raise with ryden your concerns about the quality of the construction works that you've set out on page two of this letter
00:29:27 letter and you set out the details uh from halfway down there as we see did you raise those with ryden i don't think i did yeah i raised the consultation
00:29:38 consultation process with them right why didn't you raise these specific matters with ryden directly
00:29:45 directly i don't know do you know that they had a resident liaison they were they weren't interested they weren't there no one was coming to a meeting
00:29:58 we were asking to meet and to raise our concerns
00:30:02 concerns it wasn't until june or july that they would meet and address our concerns and the concerns are raised in the minutes in the letters you know
00:30:15 in the minutes in the letters you know they were raised and yet they weren't met can we look at claire williams reply this is tm00837882
00:30:28 she replies to your letter on the 8th of april 2015. and uh
00:30:36 and uh in the second paragraph paragraph two on that first page she says let's just look at it together consultation this has been going on sorry this has been ongoing since 2012. in 2014 we asked residents
00:30:48 since 2012. in 2014 we asked residents on their preference for consultation as obviously fatigue had settled in ninety percent asked for individual information through their letterbox newsletters or updates but we have continued to hold informal sessions and
00:31:00 continued to hold informal sessions and drop-ins
00:31:00 drop-ins to reach more people since your residency this has been held on 26 september am pm in the foyer and also on december 14th january 15 am pm evening in flat 145 to evidence
00:31:13 am pm evening in flat 145 to evidence the heating layout
00:31:16 now first of all so far as you were concerned is what claire williams is saying there about newsletters updates informal sessions and drop-ins
00:31:30 true wasn't aware at the time i see about those things so when is this right mr collins when claire williams set out what i've just read to you in
00:31:42 set out what i've just read to you in this letter that was news to you was it they weren't in my mind at the time right at all i did not know about them right i couldn't think about them they were the past
00:31:52 past right we were there in the presence and we didn't have consultation i didn't know what to do um you say they were in the past
00:32:03 were in the past uh this is april 15 and she's explaining that there have been um informal sessions and drop-ins in december and january it wasn't the
00:32:15 in december and january it wasn't the dis i mean to be fair to the tma it wasn't the distant past
00:32:21 so what i'm really just keen to explore is why what why you would say that what she's saying there is is either not true or insufficient
00:32:33 where do i start by april we had uh an understanding or we began to understand what it would how hard is this to try and talk about
00:32:45 how hard is this to try and talk about something
00:32:46 something um it's really hard to explain we weren't
00:32:50 weren't happy or people weren't happy about the destruction they looked like they weren't happy about their what was happening within their flats
00:33:00 and that's distant in time from when they
00:33:05 they when they told us it would be all right they told us certain things in this in december and then in january they changed the plan so we hadn't had a consultation about about that
00:33:16 about that right so what i mean the consultation it wasn't me it wasn't the requirements weren't met the crimes of consultation
00:33:27 weren't met the crimes of consultation weren't met there wasn't enough consultation at the time it was needed so are you i'm just trying to are you saying that there was consultation but you weren't involved in it and then it stopped
00:33:38 it stopped and you were complaining about it stopping
00:33:42 it wasn't a stop a minute right i don't understand
00:33:50 well you see in paragraph two of this letter and claire williams is te is responding to you and explaining that there has been consultation and giving you the details of what it was
00:34:01 giving you the details of what it was and i suppose like to put the question in another way what was wrong with what she was saying there it wasn't adequate it wasn't to the task yeah it wasn't adequate and what exactly
00:34:12 yeah it wasn't adequate and what exactly was it
00:34:14 was it was up to the scale of the problem right and what would have been up to the scale of the problem that you weren't seeing but you wanted to see
00:34:25 i don't know yeah i have worked in instances where we've developed engagement strategies where we've we've engaged people and we've
00:34:37 we've we've engaged people and we've found out their needs and their requirement like what they need right and yes i see can we can we go to page two of this letter her response i just
00:34:50 two of this letter her response i just want to ask you about we wanted to have a safe place to live of course i don't know and we weren't met in that in that in that desire we didn't feel
00:35:01 in that in that desire we didn't feel like we were ever met in our desire to have a safe tower and i understand the requirement of community engagement is to have something be met at the community engaged
00:35:13 engaged and if we're not then how do we do it we can't
00:35:16 can't move them we can complain but we can't move them towards us we can't get them to
00:35:21 to to to do something no i understand that let me try to see if i can
00:35:28 if i can put it a different way in an ideal world what would you have wanted to claire williams to have said to you that would have given you complete reassurance
00:35:44 have given you complete reassurance okay we're interested to to hear what you'd like to do about this i don't know some some show of interest
00:35:58 i don't know some some show of interest we did have a show of interest
00:36:02 um it was later it was it was near to christmas um in 2015 and it was after several things that
00:36:13 and it was after several things that happened and we had our mp visit and then sasha javen was was interested to meet
00:36:19 to meet and to move forward in some way to begin to understand like what was happening isn't but the problems you know there was a
00:36:31 but the problems you know there was a point at which there's only a point it felt like where there was an interest in doing something different
00:36:38 different yes i see can i then go back to this this letter that paragraph three on page two
00:36:47 two uh which should come up now uh and she says works let's just read this together she says works the health and safety of the works is subject to rigorous inspection by
00:36:59 is subject to rigorous inspection by ryden's own h s team as well as the clerk of works employed by the kctmo there have been comments on the workmanship to the communal area but it is all work in progress as we
00:37:10 but it is all work in progress as we need to test pipework before it gets insulated and boxed in and at that point plastering and decoration is undertaken at the time mr collins do you remember whether you found that explanation
00:37:21 whether you found that explanation that these were works in progress reassuring or not
00:37:26 not really what about the fact that ryden's health and safety team and the clerks
00:37:31 clerks of works were undertaking inspections did you find that reassuring there wasn't
00:37:38 wasn't a lot of trust about ryden or the clock of works so what was wrong with the reassurance or what was insufficient about that
00:37:49 what was insufficient about that reassurance
00:37:54 i don't know did you respond to this letter
00:37:58 letter at the time pointing out the deficiencies in claire williams's response
00:38:04 response i did you did i tried at least right
00:38:12 i felt uncertain that we were getting anywhere with a with with the community sense of it wasn't it wasn't fair
00:38:26 it wasn't it wasn't fair well we may come back to the response later but
00:38:29 later but can i then ask you some questions about the foundation of grenfell community unite now you cover that in your statement paragraphs 27 and 28 where
00:38:40 paragraphs 27 and 28 where you describe the residence meetings on the 17th and 26th of march 2015. we just have that up in front of us it's your statement at page six please
00:38:50 please para 28 and you you say there that uh there'd been a meeting
00:39:01 meeting uh on the 17th of march this is paragraph 27 with 100 residents in attendance but you were away
00:39:09 were away and there was another meeting the following week which you deal with the paragraph 28 and you say that you see that there you say following that meeting edward set up the next meeting for 26th of march in
00:39:20 the next meeting for 26th of march in his flat
00:39:21 his flat 134 he invited as many residents as possible
00:39:24 possible i was part of the group who met that evening there were approximately 20 households in attendance we quickly inaugurated and committed to a residence voice stroke group to speak together with the tmo and ryden
00:39:35 together with the tmo and ryden which was named grenfell community unite
00:39:41 now that's what you say in your statement that and i've read that to you so that that's the background for the questions that i'm now going to ask you can you go please to tmo double zero eight four six one two four
00:40:00 tmo double 0-846-124 this is an email exchange in april 2015 between edward defon
00:40:11 in april 2015 between edward defon claire williams and you about grenfell community unite and if we go to page 3
00:40:18 we see an email of the 6th of april 2015 from you to claire williams copy to edward the farm and in that you can see in the second paragraph do you see it says as you know
00:40:31 paragraph do you see it says as you know on the 17th march 2015 upwards of 100 residents gathered in our community rooms
00:40:37 rooms uh and you explained that there and the next paragraph and you can see if you look down the page problems with the works are identified
00:40:48 are identified uh and then if you turn to page four the next page
00:40:52 next page still within your email here
00:40:57 you see that about halfway just below halfway down you say on the 26th of march 2015 representatives from approximately 20 households in grenfell tower gathered to
00:41:08 households in grenfell tower gathered to form grenfell community unite as a community stroke residence group we believe that by so doing residents can speak with a collective voice to address our concerns regarding the improvement works
00:41:19 regarding the improvement works and then you go on at the bottom of the page
00:41:24 page uh three
00:41:27 uh three three paragraphs up to to ask for a meeting
00:41:30 meeting with the tmo and if you look at the foot of the page page four and over to page five you say this just read with me you say as time is such a pressing issue
00:41:42 you say as time is such a pressing issue please could you respond by 5 p.m on wednesday 8th of april 2015. to confirm your willingness to acknowledge the grenfell community unite group as a resident stroke community group
00:41:51 group a representative voice for the tenants leaseholders and renters of grenfell tower
00:41:56 tower and then over the page top of page five confirm your willingness to meet with grenfell community unite members in a public meeting to discuss the aforementioned issues and a number of specific requests we have for tmo and ryden you see that
00:42:10 for tmo and ryden you see that now why did residents need a collective voice we didn't feel individually that we would be listened to
00:42:21 remember we weren't was our experience and many people what was your personal experience of not being listened to
00:42:32 being listened to as an individual um i've been told not to worry about the windows
00:42:40 for instance until not to worry about things
00:42:44 things to not do it to not have a voice
00:42:49 can you recall a specific complaint or concern
00:42:53 concern or worry that you had about the refurbishment which you tried to raise yourself with the tmo before march 2015.
00:43:06 before march 2015. yeah and really much
00:43:14 about the refurbishment
00:43:24 what about on other issues before that time
00:43:31 yeah i wouldn't want to talk about that at the moment i i did have someone tried to break into my flat and i wasn't you know my complaint was not met
00:43:42 not met joyously i was turned around and
00:43:47 dumped on isn't it isn't that's not factual yeah i was dumped on i was told it wasn't like it wasn't my fault yeah i was questioned about why i'd even have someone try and break into me
00:43:58 someone try and break into me like it was my problem you know trying to turn it on the victim and not have any responsibility that was my feeling um can i ask you
00:44:09 um can i ask you did you try and raise these concerns yeah there were several times i raised fire safety or or issues throughout the [Applause] right side did you try to raise
00:44:23 right side did you try to raise concerns about the refurbishment yourself with ryden well with ryzen and tmo right did you use
00:44:32 use the boiler location and they weren't listening to those so in a one-to-one situation they could kind of ignore and not take any notice
00:44:46 ignore and not take any notice and they would tell you things that were
00:44:52 but they weren't sure it's maybe you won't have hot water you know if you don't do it the way we'd like you then you might not have hot water there were subtle threats and i wasn't
00:45:04 there were subtle threats and i wasn't sure about those things as an individual yeah as a group we knew full well they were using that tactic with others and the vulnerable were less likely to be
00:45:15 the vulnerable were less likely to be able to resist those kind of tactics right does that mean that grenfell community unite would only be raising
00:45:26 unite would only be raising issues concerns worries complaints that were common to everybody in it that that was a plan that was the plan
00:45:37 that that was a plan that was the plan so it wouldn't be am i right in thinking that it wouldn't be a mechanism or group for individuals to raise individual concerns or complaints that were not within the norm
00:45:48 that were not within the norm experienced by the members we needed to it was so bad we needed to we had our counselor
00:45:59 so bad we needed to we had our counselor eventually she was able to try to get the tmo
00:46:04 the tmo to do something about individual complaints but she didn't do so well it reached a point where she couldn't get purchase she was a tmo board member but once she started to
00:46:16 once she started to talk in a way where she wanted to take forward our issues then she wasn't listened to
00:46:24 it's quite hard to explain what happened but individual issues became quite important
00:46:29 important to her and we had to try and find a way to take individual issues to the tmo through her or you know if we couldn't do it with him by email the complaints process
00:46:41 by email the complaints process it didn't seem to produce much of an outcome
00:46:44 outcome um the complaints process was that counselor judith blakeman
00:46:50 correct right and why not use the lancaster west residents to say there was a there was a woman who couldn't
00:46:58 couldn't um use the bathroom you know she she had to walk i think it was to shepherds bush to be able to use a bathroom she didn't have like there was just things like we had to
00:47:09 there was just things like we had to raise
00:47:10 raise these sorts of concerns yes i've seen that in the papers uh and i understand i understand that the nature of the of the complaints um but what i'm just trying to get a handle on here really is is the nature
00:47:21 handle on here really is is the nature and i wasn't i wasn't sure this was the real one you know like how could you have a building where people live where they're not able to use the bathroom and they are vulnerable yes like it's not real well it is but
00:47:34 yes like it's not real well it is but it's not a joke
00:47:37 did you know that the existence of the lancaster west residents association was there a reason why
00:47:45 why you and others couldn't use the lancaster west residents association as the
00:47:50 the conduit for bringing home your your concerns and complaints and uh issues to the tma that way as far as i knew um they were not functioning and i did
00:48:03 um they were not functioning and i did try to
00:48:03 try to to email and to telephone and was no response yes i see
00:48:10 they were not functioning as far as i'm aware
00:48:16 i never met them until the new members in
00:48:21 in september 2015. can we look at another document together um
00:48:28 um tmo i'm so sorry mr collins i i may have cut you off the moment we could have been met in our complaints like it was early in the year it wasn't
00:48:39 like it was early in the year it wasn't late
00:48:39 late it wasn't 2016. it was earlier we'd have needed to be met with the community needed to be within the tower would need to be met with by the tmo and it would have been early 2015
00:48:53 and it would have been early 2015 right can we look at tmo double zero
00:48:59 okay no dude if you want to add something
00:49:03 something please do i don't want to cut you off threatens was legal threats against people who wanted works done in the manner they were
00:49:14 the manner they were they were told they were legal threats you know can i can i show you tm00846102
00:49:39 now and this is an email from claire williams
00:49:43 williams to uh peter madison copying david gibson in dated the 13th of april 2015. now i certainly don't expect you to have
00:49:54 now i certainly don't expect you to have have seen this at the time but i just want to show you what it says in the third line it says robert black walked by on friday and we discussed the fact that the preference was not to meet up with the grenfell
00:50:05 grenfell community unite group which could be a showcase
00:50:09 showcase for mr dufan do you i have to ask you this question don't let me ask i'm sorry i can't talk about eddie with
00:50:20 i'm sorry i can't talk about eddie with the phone you know it's like how can you do that
00:50:25 how do you not listen to a terror block for one reason and to blame someone for the problem
00:50:37 and to blame someone for the problem because you can't you can't do your job
00:50:43 well i put you the document because i wanted to ask a slightly different question
00:50:48 question perhaps in the light of your answer forgive the question but i i think i should
00:50:52 should ask it did at any time do you yourself think
00:50:57 think that grenfell community unite might have been a showcase for mr dufan
00:51:08 been a showcase for mr dufan do you seriously want me to begin to try to
00:51:11 to answer that well the reason i do is because there are other people in this inquiry uh who who would like me to answer ask that question and it it
00:51:22 question and it it it is of interest because there are two sides
00:51:25 sides to the story to know
00:51:30 can i take you back to your statement that's the problem there was a story um
00:51:39 about two landlords of a free house and it caught fire and they didn't wake up
00:51:46 up yeah there was two people in the street saw the fire and entered into the fire to wake up the landlord and waking up he found he'd set his own house on fire his buns had caught fire in the air in the kitchen and he
00:52:00 he took it out on the people like he didn't think it was his fault he didn't want to admit his mistake i just can't believe
00:52:11 i'm doing this trying to take it out on it's a disgrace you see the reason i'm
00:52:22 it's a disgrace you see the reason i'm asking you that is because that that was the recorded internal view of the tml and i'm just asking videos the recorded meetings
00:52:31 meetings where we have i don't know 20 people talking about the same issues it's not ed you know there are
00:52:43 can we go back to your statement at page 10
00:52:47 10 paragraphs 43 and 44 [Applause]
00:52:58 and you say at para 43 the tmo did not and would not agree to meet a group of residents from april through july 2015 despite knowing of the janet edwards email of 17 september 2014 this caused great
00:53:11 of 17 september 2014 this caused great consternation to many residents in the community group as a result of this environment in the early days of the grenfell community unite group april may 2015 we had to focus our attention where we
00:53:22 we had to focus our attention where we could make progress in doing so we let go of some of our broader safety and well-being concerns we had instead to focus on the most basic of engagement issues for for instance being acknowledged by local authorities as having a voice
00:53:34 authorities as having a voice um you refer there to the broader safety and well-being concerns there what safety and well-being concerns
00:53:43 concerns were you referring to i don't know you'd be best to refer to minutes like i haven't got the wherewithal right now right i'm a bit upset
00:53:55 right i'm a bit upset okay just talk about the detail all right would it help to take a break would you like a break i'm okay all right i'm all right
00:54:06 a break i'm okay all right i'm all right okay but i don't want to talk they're in the minutes so you know be happy to talk about the minutes where they're described
00:54:16 in detail
00:54:22 well let's move forward then in time may 2015
00:54:27 met3070991 this is a letter from grant mr miller to say it's a long time ago and to remember the detail
00:54:38 and to remember the detail as well as being upset it's it's quite hard to do no i understand i understand well let me let me be a little bit more specific explain during the minutes oh i understand let's try a little bit more carefully
00:54:51 let's try a little bit more carefully then
00:54:52 then um with the next document um met 3070991 page three this is a an email or a letter
00:55:06 an email or a letter uh from grenfell community unite pilgrim tucker to robert black at the tmo
00:55:15 and it's dated the 13th of may and it's also sent
00:55:20 also sent uh to uh nicholas padgett brown uh the then council leader under a separate email and if you want to see that i'll i'll show you that to you as well
00:55:32 show you that to you as well and you can see that pilgrim tucker who is the community coordinator uh wanted a meeting basically
00:55:43 uh wanted a meeting basically uh with residents uh do you know why pilgrim tucker wrote to the chief executive of the tmo he asked us if we would like her to do
00:55:56 he asked us if we would like her to do it
00:55:56 it or unite the union to do it on our behalf
00:56:01 because we know we've made no headway ourselves
00:56:04 ourselves with the authorities yeah one night we thought she might be able to get an audience or a meeting with someone
00:56:16 with someone why did pilgrim tuck a right to the chief executive of the tmo and the leader of rbkc and not to you or mr defan
00:56:24 mr defan do you know oh we're fully aware we were copied i believe
00:56:35 did you receive a response to these letters
00:56:39 um hold on can i check is there a signature
00:56:45 signature uh well that's a good question i have the document in front of me and i can go to the bottom of the page pilgrim tucker yes he signed it that's that's there on the
00:56:55 the foot of the page so cc yes if you want to see the emails that sent them out we can look at those we were fully aware of the of the letter
00:57:06 we were fully aware of the of the letter and its purpose we were trying to get a meeting yes she was able to to do that well eventually but not with i mean not with
00:57:17 eventually but not with i mean not with robert black
00:57:21 did you receive a response or did pilgrim tucker receive a response to these letters that you know of never
00:57:32 we did not now one of the steps is this right mr collins one of the steps that you took as a group was to make contact with your local councillors i think you mentioned judith blakeman do you remember why you
00:57:44 judith blakeman do you remember why you felt it necessary to take that step because blinking no one else would listen to us we tried we tried every way we could
00:57:57 we tried we tried every way we could possibly find to get a voice and to be heard and izzy wasn't blocked right but that wasn't our voice that was ed that was francis that wasn't
00:58:09 that was ed that was francis that wasn't the voice of the tower yes i see and do you remember is this right that through judith blakeman and robert atkinson the councillors you were able
00:58:20 atkinson the councillors you were able to get a meeting on the 11th of july 2015.
00:58:25 could we just could you repeat please yes
00:58:29 yes uh well i can show you your witness statement where it's set out um page 14. it may help you if it's if you see it in your statement page 14 paragraph 58 to 63
00:58:44 and you you um explain at paragraph 58 the and following the lead up there if you just read in your statement that pilgrim tucker
00:58:57 in your statement that pilgrim tucker told residents that councillor blakeman's willingness to meet and there were then notices in lifts and a film made by constantine grass and
00:59:11 grass and at 61 you say as a result of this meeting councillors blakeman and atkinson persuaded the tmo to agree to meet the community about their concerns we asked for a meeting in the lancaster western state community rooms
00:59:23 western state community rooms as insisted on by the tmo stroke ride in the meeting happened in the show flat flat 145 on the 11th of july yeah that's what you say in your statement did you attend the meeting on the 11th of july 2015. yes
00:59:36 on the 11th of july 2015. yes do you know to the best of your recollection why they agreed to meet you having previously refused to do so i don't know did they explain
00:59:50 i don't know did they explain councillor blakeman may have i don't know
00:59:55 did anyone at the meeting explore that question did anybody ask how come you're prepared to meet us now but not before
01:00:04 i don't think i don't think so
01:00:09 now let's let's move on in time met four three zeros four one four two four
01:00:20 this is when it comes up you'll see it the letter that councillors blakeman and atkinson
01:00:25 atkinson prepared in order to report back to the residents about the meeting and you can see that it's dated 16th july 2015 and it says dear grenfell tower resident you see that
01:00:37 you see that and and in the first paragraph it says we are writing to report back to you on the meeting held last saturday with residents of grenfell tower peter madison assets and regeneration director of the tmo
01:00:49 director of the tmo and simon lawrence of ryden the meeting was facilitated by ourselves councillors robert atkinson and judith blakeman and was very well attended the issues raised were as follows and then you see if you look down the
01:01:00 and then you see if you look down the page with me we'll scroll it it deals with the sighting of the hiu boiler unit electrical safety and then if we scroll down
01:01:09 down pipe work and scroll down further access to the flat security and then over to page two please
01:01:17 please general everyday working individual matters
01:01:21 matters and then complaints uh and then redecoration uh and after that time frame and then action
01:01:30 action now i've shown you that letter very quickly uh mr collins and i know this was some time ago but on what i've shown you thus far do you remember seeing a copy of this letter when it came
01:01:43 i do kinda i've seen it an email for sure now uh looking at the very bottom of page
01:01:54 uh looking at the very bottom of page uh three just above the signature it says victoria borac mp is visiting grenfell tower on friday night 17th july and she's been given a copy of this
01:02:05 and she's been given a copy of this letter unfortunately we do not have the resources to circulate it to every household
01:02:09 household prior to her visit do you know given what said there whether this letter was circulated among all the other residents of the tower i do not do you know in general whether
01:02:22 i do not do you know in general whether other residents other than you uh and those in the in grenfell community unite received this letter i do not unfortunately no uh now the the
01:02:34 i do not unfortunately no uh now the the headings
01:02:34 headings i've shown you set out the le the issues discussed
01:02:38 discussed do you remember whether any fire safety specific
01:02:41 specific concerns were raised at the meeting
01:02:46 they were yet not the ones we would have liked to if we'd known no i understand that can you tell us what they were
01:02:57 um there were concerns about um electrical outage the shortage um about the hiu
01:03:12 i don't know of others for our safety yes yeah i don't know in general mr collins
01:03:23 yeah i don't know in general mr collins did
01:03:23 did did you get some comfort any comfort from this letter that at last to some extent ryden had been engaged
01:03:33 engaged on issues troubling the community for so long
01:03:39 not really not until we met our mp right and then i felt certain something would change
01:03:51 would change right maybe but we'll see and why did this letter not give you at least a grain of comfort
01:04:05 i don't have
01:04:09 a sense of that it just didn't feel like we'd
01:04:16 made any ground or been hurt
01:04:22 and there was an argument
01:04:25 within the meeting between whom
01:04:31 between the tmo and writing and ourselves
01:04:35 ourselves about what oh we weren't ignorant yet we felt like
01:04:46 we weren't treated well can you elaborate a bit more someone in the meeting
01:04:52 um one of the supervisors and he wasn't very sure of himself he said something which was a bit foolish that we
01:05:00 that we should be we should be grateful um for what we have rather than grumbling about problems that were like one hours or we shouldn't worry
01:05:12 like one hours or we shouldn't worry about things um he wasn't very happy he was angry and there was a reaction right you say one of the supervisors which organization
01:05:24 which organization uh did that supervisor belong to
01:05:28 jason noah yeah i shouldn't ryden
01:05:34 ryden um can we go back to page two of this letter
01:05:43 to the residence complaints i showed you the heading i'll show you the text it says although ryden
01:05:52 ryden are available to receive complaints the tmo is not and it is difficult to raise issues with them the tmo out of our service is a disaster residents have reported on many occasions when lifts are not working without response when the water was
01:06:04 without response when the water was turned off no water bottles or other arrangement was offered to affected households there is a need for both the tmo and ryden to treat residents with proper respect engage with them properly and apologize when an apology is justified
01:06:16 when an apology is justified mr madison said he was at the meeting to apologize on behalf of the tmo when services are not working or things go wrong
01:06:25 do you agree with what is said there namely that ryden were available to receive complaints but the tmo was not bryden would receive complaints
01:06:37 was not bryden would receive complaints yeah that's fine to say but they weren't really there to resolve if there wasn't a will from the tmo to implement
01:06:45 implement a solution the client wouldn't do anything
01:06:49 anything so what would ryden do in those circumstances i wouldn't do anything if the client didn't require me or pay me to yes i see what kind of very engaged
01:07:01 yes i see what kind of very engaged with us
01:07:04 i'm sorry i overspoke again could you just repeat that service yeah and this is um judith blakeman who's a
01:07:15 and this is um judith blakeman who's a tmao board member um remember she's writing this about her own organization yes yes
01:07:25 yes yes what kind of complaints were residents raising with ryden
01:07:34 out of hours noise workmen and lifts what has been inappropriate on the outside of the building um making noise interrupting people's
01:07:45 people's they may be working shifts and trying to sleep and they weren't able to there were babies um who were who weren't even acquired all the time but they needed their like their own space and they weren't
01:07:56 like their own space and they weren't able to have it i mean there were so many lifts of the weekends lifts not working doors doors not functioning not being fixed not being repaired in time [Music]
01:08:06 [Music] i mean i don't want to go into it at all i mean this may be our doors i mean doors were open and then
01:08:18 open and then people were able to bring rubbish and there were there were fire risks you know associated with having rubbish in the base of the tower and not being able to
01:08:29 and not being able to get rid of it and no door is locked so you can't prevent people from bringing their rubbish in i mean and then blaming residents for things that they couldn't do i mean let's see can we go to tmo
01:08:42 do i mean let's see can we go to tmo double zero eight five two four two four please
01:08:50 this is is i'm what i'm going to show you is part of an email chain between peter madison at the cmo and councillor judith blakeman about the letter to residents that i've just
01:09:01 letter to residents that i've just shown you and we've looked at together can we go to page three please the particular email i'd like to look at with you is dated the 16th of july from peter
01:09:13 dated the 16th of july from peter madison to councillor blakeman uh and in paragraph four he says kctmo who has a very clear complaints policy and a number of residents who attended the meeting on saturday have
01:09:24 attended the meeting on saturday have used it quite extensively in the past it is quite misleading to suggest that it's difficult to raise issues with us we hold regular and frequent drop-in sessions in the block in addition to a wide range of other potential points of
01:09:35 wide range of other potential points of contact
01:09:36 contact as you are aware some residents have been actively encouraging residents not to engage with writing and kctmo to serve their own agenda now i just want to put a number of
01:09:47 now i just want to put a number of things to you because that's what peter madison has uh have said in this communication first do you agree that kctmo had a very clear campaign complaints policy
01:09:59 complaints policy no um had you ever seen uh its complaints policy never in all my time there did you know
01:10:10 never in all my time there did you know it existed as a document eventually i didn't know or hadn't heard of a document
01:10:19 document did the tmo never bring to your attention the existence of a document called complaints policy i don't know i don't think so that's right
01:10:30 right were you aware of any residents who encouraged others not to engage with ryden and kctmo
01:10:40 i wanted to talk with them as a group and have a grown-up conversation yeah that was that was the only thing
01:10:53 yeah that was that was the only thing we wanted we wanted a voice want to talk to them
01:10:56 to them see peter madison is their ability to to move forward the project we don't want to take away from the tower or from the refurbishment project we wanted to put things right on track yes i
01:11:08 put things right on track yes i understand um you see what i just need to ask you what you know of this allegation distract us and to not listen to what we had to to give
01:11:20 to what we had to to give they didn't care about our concerns was the appearance i mean in all fact they didn't care because they didn't meet with us until forced to do so by our mp
01:11:32 with us until forced to do so by our mp can we look at the last sentence of paragraph four together i'll read it again
01:11:36 again as you are aware some residents have been actively encouraging residents not to engage with ryden and kctmo
01:11:43 kctmo to serve their own agenda to the best of your knowledge mr collins was that true not not to my awareness right there may have been
01:11:56 and when mr madison says that there is an agenda to serve their own agenda to the best of your recollection of what you perceived at the time did anybody in involved in the
01:12:09 did anybody in involved in the grenfell community unite group have an agenda
01:12:14 agenda a next grind if you like i don't know we'd like to have a safe home
01:12:24 somewhere to live be at peace i don't know
01:12:28 know be quiet in the evening
01:12:34 i wouldn't think our job is to try to improve the tmo yet we ended up having to
01:12:40 to try and do that
01:12:42 [Music] makes no sense why would we why would we do that do you remember casting your mind back to the 11th of
01:12:53 casting your mind back to the 11th of july meeting before this email whether there was any discussion at that meeting about the complaints policy
01:13:04 complaints policy sorry i i didn't hear i'll repeat the question um do you remember
01:13:11 remember doing the best you can take a break mr chairman yes yes you should take a good time yeah well i was going to say in a minute or two we'll come to that anyway but let's take it now
01:13:22 take it now um we'll come back at half past three that's our time i think it might be a different time your time but anyway 15 minutes or so half past three hour time and
01:13:33 time and um we'll resume then i don't suppose you've got much opportunity to talk to anyone about your evidence but if you do please don't take it all right
01:13:44 please don't take it all right i'm all right all right thank you very much we'll see you at the top of three all right good thank you very much
01:13:53 i'll first read them please
01:30:29 to the end hmm
01:30:36 right well um whoever has control of these things could i ask please that mr collins be put back in touch with us
01:30:53 [Applause]
01:31:00 150.
01:31:14 oh
01:31:22 [Applause]
01:31:36 oh good hello again mr collins can i just check that you can see me and hear me clearly very well very good thank you very much are you ready to carry on
01:31:48 are you ready to carry on i am thank you thank you very much within our invite mr millet to continue with his questions yes mr miller thank you mr chairman um mr collins welcome back i'm going to ask you some questions now if i can please about some specific
01:32:00 if i can please about some specific complaints uh fire safety related in particular which were raised by the grenfell compact
01:32:09 compact the first relates to floor numbering now can i ask you please to go to
01:32:24 met3040986 um this is a document uh entitled grenfell tower issues matrix uh and this uh is a version dating from
01:32:38 uh and this uh is a version dating from august 2015 there was another one dated may 2016.
01:32:43 may 2016. and this is a document which you can see has a number down the left-hand side resident issues uh and a column for that and then tmo straight ride and response
01:32:54 straight ride and response um is this a document you've seen before do you think yes yes very familiar and i think it's right that actually you helped collate the issues in this issues matrix didn't
01:33:05 the issues in this issues matrix didn't you
01:33:07 you some of some of them uh just to help your recollection you helped is this right you have counselor blakeman to pull this together did you
01:33:17 did you correct and everyone in the team who else in the team helped willie antonio marcio
01:33:28 willie antonio marcio henan to rafat he what several many other people i'm not sure of the names unfortunately dennis yes
01:33:40 unfortunately dennis yes steve ceremony mariam right
01:33:48 now in respect of floor numbering can we go to
01:33:51 go to number 23 on page two
01:33:58 and you can see the nature of the complaint
01:34:01 complaint change floor numbers back to reflect current flat numbers and find an alternative numbering system for the two floors
01:34:08 floors two new floors and then it says in the right hand column the floor numbering
01:34:15 numbering was ridiculous it was completely incredulous that you'd have a a difference in in two between the number not on your door it just didn't make sense
01:34:26 just didn't make sense you'd have a number on your door and that would be completely different from the number of the floor
01:34:34 yes that would make sense if there was a fireman looking for a door he wouldn't know the floor
01:34:41 it's right i think isn't it that this issue about floor numbering had been a a problem a concern of residents of grenfell tower for quite some time before
01:34:52 before august 2015.
01:34:56 throughout the year and can we just make that
01:35:00 that good by the way documents as soon as it's introduced it was a crazy idea can we look at met30s 70936 please
01:35:11 can we look at met30s 70936 please at page two my mom said it was crazy she could make sense of how you have a different number to your floor on your door
01:35:23 yes and this is a document we looked at earlier and this is you'll remember mr collins i showed you this this is the second page of the minutes of the 17th of march 2015
01:35:35 of the minutes of the 17th of march 2015 meeting
01:35:36 meeting and if you look at the bottom of page two i read this out to you before but i'll just take it back take you back to it
01:35:43 it under other issues it says changing floor numbers without consulting you see that of course so does this tell us that as early as
01:35:55 so does this tell us that as early as march 2015 the numbering of the flaws was an issue that you were putting forward to the tma as soon as
01:36:04 soon as the first meeting what happened to that complaint and that you were all raised between march
01:36:12 march 2015 and august 2015. can you give us a sense of that
01:36:19 oh there's no sense of of any resolution the complaint it's like a complaint meta a blank slate
01:36:31 meta a blank slate like it wasn't heard like a complaint that matters and needs solving or something better you know how do you do that i
01:36:44 better you know how do you do that i don't know can we go back they didn't send a response the tmo sends one to rbkc and it seems like at some point in time i don't know how we got the information it may even have
01:36:55 got the information it may even have been a freedom of information request to get the final resolution which was nothing would be done but at least we knew it was because the council didn't want to do anything
01:37:06 council didn't want to do anything because the post office weren't sure about the
01:37:09 about the new postcode i mean it didn't make sense can we go back to the matrix we looked at in the previous document please and go to the response that
01:37:22 and go to the response that was given by tmo and ryden bottom of page two over to the top of page three
01:37:32 and the response is as you can see royal mail requires the lower floors to be numbered
01:37:37 numbered so that the address is easily identified for the emergency services in case of any incident floors have been renumbered and temporary signage fitted until the final version is available the floor
01:37:49 the final version is available the floor levels have been altered and it is not possible to revert to the old numbering now that possible that was the response
01:37:58 what did you think of that response it didn't make any sense why would you have why couldn't you find a way to make it
01:38:10 why couldn't you find a way to make it work so the new floors had a numbering and then you knew the old floors made sense you knew if you were floor 18 185 was floor 18
01:38:23 rather than it being 185 and then that being on the 21st floor yes were there any concerns expressed uh at this time by which i mean between
01:38:35 uh at this time by which i mean between march
01:38:35 march and august 2015 about the change in floor numbering in relation to fire safety
01:38:43 many times
01:38:48 and can you tell us the nature of the fire safety concerns about floor numbering i couldn't detail all the complaints no but what was the gist of the pro of the complaint what was the gist of
01:39:00 of the complaint what was the gist of the fire safety problem that this numbering presented it's pretty obvious you wouldn't have a clue which floor to go to if you were
01:39:13 if you were a fireman trying to find a flat that night can we then move to a different document later in the year
01:39:25 different document later in the year zero tm0100 zero zero nine three
01:39:30 tmo one double zero one double zero nine three
01:39:33 three page two i'm going to show you an email from councillor blakeman
01:39:46 to peter madison foot of that page you see there's an email from judith blakeman to peter madison and claire williams
01:39:56 williams co uh copy to councillor atkinson and councillor lashari 2nd of october 2015.
01:40:02 2015. dear mr madison and then if you turn the page
01:40:06 page to the next page page three she says i'm writing to let you have the issues raised with members of the grenfell tower compact
01:40:17 at last saturday surgery with my colleague councillor atkinson in advance of your meeting next week they are as follows and if we scroll down to
01:40:25 down to point six please lower down page three of the document she says they continue to have an issue with the numbering of the flaws as do the ward councillors
01:40:37 the ward councillors whatever the post office requires the new system of numbering is not effective and could prove dangerous in the event of an emergency the notices about the floor number changes are not prominent or secure and in any case would not be helpful to
01:40:49 and in any case would not be helpful to children anyone who's not does not read english or indeed anyone with literacy problems the solution the residents propose is that the lower flaws should have a new name such as lower grenfell we believe that this issue does require
01:41:00 we believe that this issue does require some further consideration now i think it's right isn't it that you weren't actually at the meeting of the previous saturday were you
01:41:11 were you i don't know that particular day right um there were many did you know that a meeting with councillor atkinson was taking place that was referred to
01:41:23 was taking place that was referred to i did yes were you aware of the concerns that would be raised
01:41:30 i believe i was there were minutes
01:41:35 when counselor blakeman says the new system of numbering is not effective and could prove dangerous in the event of an emergency
01:41:45 again do you know yourself what she had in mind
01:41:49 in mind by saying that it could prove dangerous in the event of an emergency
01:41:56 there is an email i sent to to her and to others
01:42:02 about the floor and umbreon yes yes my question was slightly different what what
01:42:10 what what did you have in what did you think she she meant when she said that the new system of numbering could prove dangerous in the event of an emergency
01:42:21 emergency you wouldn't know where to go if there was a fire when there was a fire you wouldn't know right was that or and if there was a phone call
01:42:31 call received and someone hadn't the floor number
01:42:35 number where they hadn't told the operator like the correct floor but there wouldn't be a way to facilitate for someone to understand if the like
01:42:48 for someone to understand if the like where the floor was and the weather i just
01:42:52 just [Applause] she
01:42:59 she says
01:43:03 uh that the notices this is the i read this to you the third line the notice is about the floor number changes are not prominent or secure
01:43:13 secure do you know how the floor number changes were shown at the time within the building so this is
01:43:20 is you've got photographs in my inquiry evidence
01:43:24 evidence there are
01:43:27 there are there are should i show you those
01:43:31 those let's see let's say simple
01:43:36 a4 can we go to iws four zeros two three three one please and they fell off within two weeks
01:43:53 and they fell off within two weeks they were temporary i'm afraid that's in landscape
01:43:57 landscape mr collins and you say they were temporary at the time is that is that a is that it that i'm saying
01:44:04 saying new floor numbering and if we go to
01:44:18 iws402314
01:44:23 there it is on the floor yeah uh two weeks after yes in fact i think less um i think you took the first photograph according to your statement on the
01:44:35 statement on the 2nd of december 2015 and the second one on the 10th of december 2015 is that right
01:44:43 because i wasn't sure about the quality of it all right whether it would yeah stay the distance um
01:44:51 um once it had fallen off the floor what what happened next do you remember was it replaced i don't remember
01:45:01 in 2016 after these concerns were reported to the tmo can you remember what signage was in place in the stairwells to show the floor numbering
01:45:12 the floor numbering as you went up the stairs there wasn't any
01:45:16 any i thought right it may have been on some or a few floors but there wasn't any and it wouldn't have been
01:45:28 it wouldn't have been correct it would have been
01:45:32 have been would have been the old floor
01:45:37 if there had been a sign it would have been the old floor number i would expect what about in the lifts what about inside the lifts inside the
01:45:49 what about inside the lifts inside the lifts
01:45:50 lifts there weren't floor numb wasn't that you won't be able to tell which flat was on which floor inside of the
01:46:01 flat was on which floor inside of the lift
01:46:02 lift right outside the lift there was a signage there was right on the on the ground only on the ground floor only
01:46:13 floor only so if you got on the l on into the left on the fifth floor and wanted to go uh to flat well you wouldn't know i see did do you remember whether you made or whether the
01:46:25 remember whether you made or whether the compact made any further complaints or raise any further concerns about the signage
01:46:30 signage of floor numbering after december 2015.
01:46:35 all the time i mean we weren't sure um whether we would get an answer
01:46:45 it was in the matrix
01:46:48 it was a continual issue no it wasn't resolved not resolved now can i ask you then about complaints about fire safety
01:46:59 about complaints about fire safety inspections um can we go back to councillor blakeman's email of the 2nd of october uh as that's tmo10010093
01:47:10 uh as that's tmo10010093 at page three please
01:47:17 i showed you paragraph six i'd now like you to look at paragraph seven with me it says this they would like another independent inspection of the arrangements in the event of a fire perhaps this might be better
01:47:29 fire perhaps this might be better carried out at the end of the project although i think they have concerns about what would happen during the works in the event of a fire especially because of the floor numbering problem this request should also receive
01:47:41 this request should also receive further consideration why didn't i think that
01:47:45 that that was a problem all the time it wasn't just during the refurbishment what did the compact members mean by an independent
01:47:56 independent inspection
01:48:00 they wanted someone who would be independent of the tmo
01:48:07 rbkc bryden [Music]
01:48:11 [Music] to feel like someone independent and had a look at it did you ever get did you ever get anybody independent to have a look at it i don't think
01:48:23 and there was cs stokes we didn't feel like
01:48:26 like c.s stokes or any of the bedfellows of the tmo were independent we didn't feel like there was ever independence of opinion or oversight
01:48:39 opinion or oversight what was the overlooking to it the tmo the ability to speak opinion over their operations
01:48:50 you couldn't get a site of things not independently
01:48:57 even the council weren't able or willing [Music]
01:49:13 can we go to tmo
01:49:16 double zero eight nine eight two nine five three five
01:49:44 this is an email dated the 11th of april 2016 from judith blakeman to peter madison
01:49:52 madison and complaints copy to you as well as edward defon
01:49:58 and the subject was external fire alarm incident at grenfell tower and she says dear mr madison a representative of the grenfell tower compact attended the council of surgery last saturday to ask us to inquire
01:50:09 last saturday to ask us to inquire formally
01:50:10 formally about the recent incident involving the fire alarm that went off at grenfell tower
01:50:14 tower this incident occurred on the afternoon of sunday third of april the internal fire alarm was set off and activated the fire smoke extractors throughout grenfell tower automatically shutting down the communal heating system
01:50:25 heating system the first person to attend the incident was the tma's heating engineer rather than the fire brigade and residents are asking whether there is a link
01:50:32 link between the fire alarm being activated and the fire brigade at north kensington fire station being notified now pausing there do you know which representative of grenfell of the grenfell compact
01:50:43 grenfell compact councillor blakeman was referring to [Music]
01:50:50 [Music] edward right i believe were you informed of this
01:50:54 of this issue before councillor blakeman's email
01:51:00 i was not i may have been i'm not sure if i was copied
01:51:07 on the original do you know why the issue was raised with councillor blakeman
01:51:11 blakeman instead of the tmo
01:51:16 because she was the only person who would listen to us by this point looking at the third paragraph dan you see they say they would like confirmation that there is an automatic
01:51:28 confirmation that there is an automatic communication to the local fire brigade when the fire alarm and smoke extractors are activated inside grenfell tower clarification as to how the residents of the tower should react on discovering a fire in the common parts of the tower
01:51:39 fire in the common parts of the tower and who is responsible for shutting down the smoke extractors in the event of a false alarm
01:51:46 and then if you look at the last sentence of her uh email she says can you also advise whether
01:51:54 whether the fire brigade will be undertaking a full review of the fire safety arrangements at grenfell tower once all the works are completed now i thought this was an important email
01:52:05 email at the time
01:52:09 and yet it wasn't it wasn't met or resolved
01:52:14 we saw earlier an email of the 2nd of october that members of the grenfell compact had asked for an independent fire safety inspection this email asks
01:52:26 fire safety inspection this email asks again for a full review of the fire safety arrangements can you remember what it was that led to these concerns about fire safety and a request for inspections
01:52:40 edward would be better able to answer that right i wouldn't be able to adequately okay i know about concerns but i don't know enough to to say it clearly okay were you aware at
01:52:52 to say it clearly okay were you aware at the time that the tmo commissioned regular fire risk assessments for grenfell tower i was not i was not aware so it would follow that you would wouldn't know didn't know that you could ask for a
01:53:04 didn't know that you could ask for a copy of the fire risk assessment from the tmo and read it for yourself i did not right did mr default never tell you that
01:53:18 you didn't oh i don't know you may have i see i wasn't listening that she was telling me right okay uh
01:53:28 okay uh can i just ask you then some questions about the complaints process and take you on a little bit in or back a little bit in time to december 2015 can we go to tmo double
01:53:42 to december 2015 can we go to tmo double zero eight four six two four two
01:54:02 tmo double zero eight four six two four two
01:54:16 [Music]
01:54:21 right there it is now it's a document entitled grenfell tower compact meeting 14th december 2015 and you can see the attendees listed in the first paragraph
01:54:32 attendees listed in the first paragraph there
01:54:33 there you've got the mp victoria boric councillor judith blakeman peter madison and sasha jevons from the tmo
01:54:44 and sasha jevons from the tmo and it goes on to say throughout the meeting residents also raise matters of individual concern to themselves which are collated at the end of these notes david collins dc for the compact
01:54:55 notes david collins dc for the compact said that residents wish to raise four issues and then they're numbered
01:55:03 i'll just show you what the four issues were and then ask you some questions if you
01:55:07 you look on the first page you can see the first one is the location and or relocation of the hrus and then if you go down to the bottom of page two
01:55:16 page two you'll see the second one is an independent investigation into what had gone wrong including the effectiveness of the complaints procedure
01:55:25 procedure three wanted an independent investigation into the tmo in its handling of the regeneration works at the time that was the most significant thing we could have
01:55:38 the most significant thing we could have gotten yes so we wanted really was an independent investigation yes you see to uncover what you know might have been uncovered yes can i just
01:55:49 yes can i just finish this little um tour of the of the document just to remind you of what the four points where you raised the third one is on page page three the state of the building and making everything good at the end of the
01:56:00 everything good at the end of the process
01:56:01 process and then uh the fourth one is compensation for residents who spent their own money making works good in their homes and then underneath that matters raised
01:56:12 and then underneath that matters raised of concern to individual householders and various particular complaints from particular individuals in relation to their particular homes now i showed you all of that
01:56:25 were the four issues that i've shown you in this document issues that the compact had prepared together as a group yes correct yes we prepared those
01:56:38 yes correct yes we prepared those before the meeting was the idea that at this meeting you you mr collins would speak for the compact
01:56:46 compact we'd voted on those we've done a workshop thing to establish what were the most significant things to raise that
01:56:57 raise that i see and that workshop was before this meeting was it yeah were you deputies sorry i hadn't raised them all in the meeting
01:57:08 i hadn't raised them all in the meeting myself no i'm not suggesting that these were just off your own back and my question was was the idea that you would speak for the compact as a as a group and then the individual concerns would be raised separately by
01:57:20 concerns would be raised separately by those who had them i don't know as i remember the meeting was quite
01:57:29 was quite it's quite tough there were a lot of individuals with the presence of mind to explain to the mp their own individual troubles right so we didn't
01:57:41 individual troubles right so we didn't do
01:57:42 do um all the things that i'd like to to have done in terms of the compact and what we wanted to do with an independent authority to look into the tml right you weren't able to get that
01:57:54 right you weren't able to get that i see so j just summarizing it would you is this
01:57:58 is this there is a meeting audio um there's a recording there is that there is
01:58:05 is but is this fair as a summary that the four issues that you raised were issues common to all those in the compact
01:58:13 compact and the individual issues raised at the end were just those uh felt by experienced by those individuals
01:58:23 i haven't read the individual issues the common issues were were discussed they were raised and they were voted on by everyone over the most
01:58:34 the most significant and important issues at the time to us now let's go back to the middle of page one under complaints
01:58:52 uh sorry under location or relocation of the hius
01:58:56 the hius we can see there's a paragraph uh at the very bottom of the page that says vb asked the tmo to blitz all the outstanding work so that everyone would have heating and
01:59:08 so that everyone would have heating and hot water by christmas so you asked the tmo to visit every flat to ensure
01:59:13 to ensure that heating and hot water were available then the other outstanding issue should be addressed and then it continues sj at sasha jevons said that the tma would door knock every
01:59:24 said that the tma would door knock every flat in the coming week vb that's victoria boric asked that all complaints should be recorded at these visits say that there was no need for residents to go through the complaints procedure
01:59:33 procedure which was both time-consuming and tedious she was surprised that the tmo was relying on the complaints procedure she felt that going through the compact would have would have been a more positive way of dealing with problems do
01:59:45 positive way of dealing with problems do you know
01:59:45 you know what it was that led victoria borick to comment on the complaints procedure being time consuming and tedious i would not know her experience right
01:59:57 i would not know her experience right was that something raised by the residents themselves or was it just an observation uh that lady borick i think mrs borick as she then was uh mentioned herself
02:00:10 uh mentioned herself an observation i would suspect it wasn't something i'd i'd raised what did you understand her to me when she said that going through the compact
02:00:21 she said that going through the compact would have been a more positive way of dealing with problems it would have been more positive than what
02:00:30 what if they'd had the wherewithal to listen um
02:00:34 um to us to engage right did you agree that going through the compact was a more effective method
02:00:45 was a more effective method of bringing your complaints and problems and concerns about the building home to the tmo
02:00:49 the tmo [Music]
02:00:52 [Music] it would have it would have helped um certain individuals to have the confidence to to talk
02:01:03 to have the confidence to to talk about the problems that they faced um i mean the building and the tower in the yeah the troubles are faced they may not have had a
02:01:14 not have had a bathroom or their condition their kitchen was condemned and they didn't have the confidence or the ability or the technology or the wherewithal to enter into a dialogue a long-standing complaint maybe
02:01:27 a long-standing complaint maybe two or three years of no resolution and no one interested to learn or to implement a solution to your problem like and you need to face up to someone and have a conversation it's like
02:01:39 and have a conversation it's like that's a hard thing to do if you don't have confidence or if you're vulnerable or you don't feel good or your mental health isn't stable you know all these things and we had
02:01:50 all these things and we had yeah all of this in the tower it was it wasn't
02:01:54 wasn't it was a normal community wasn't everyone
02:01:58 everyone fabulous all the time trying to do everything and to help everyone but you know we did what we did yeah i understand tried to help and the combat would have helped yeah and the absence of the
02:02:09 helped yeah and the absence of the compact would have would have helped the tmo they wouldn't have had to listen can i just look at the doctor and as well
02:02:18 well she helped individuals so individuals were able to go through the mp and through our counselor to be able to get their their stories to get their problems aired but it wasn't i mean it's a it's a
02:02:31 but it wasn't i mean it's a it's a desperate mechanism to have to go to your mp
02:02:34 your mp to try to get hurt in your own community
02:02:39 how to do that and that gets to the
02:02:44 council it was your impression that victoria borick
02:02:51 borick understood that things had got as bad as the way the residents saw it that they had to come to her
02:03:03 she she began she got an inkling
02:03:09 and she didn't like what she saw right all right um what gave her the inkling do you think
02:03:20 inkling do you think what gave her the inkling hearing the stories
02:03:23 stories right i mean i don't think that's that i think she knew something wasn't right with the tower with mismanagement and i doubt she was
02:03:39 that's just popular within rbkc
02:03:44 can i but i don't i don't know can i no can i take you back to the document again bottom of page two where the second topic second common
02:03:56 where the second topic second common topic
02:03:57 topic mr miller the audio from that meeting is it's most informative like you really must listen to these these meetings they were recorded like there's a purpose to listening they really explain our community
02:04:10 really explain our community well and how we worked and how we didn't work
02:04:13 work how we worked well yes and what happened like it's really important to listen to those
02:04:17 those yes well and mr collins you can be sure that they will be put into the record so that those outside this room for today can hear
02:04:29 outside this room for today can hear those now can i just take you to the document
02:04:33 document uh which is at the bottom of page two an independent investigation into what had gone wrong including into the effectiveness of the complaints procedure pm said the cost of an independent investigation
02:04:45 the cost of an independent investigation would have to come out of the overall contract price residents said it should not come from the grenfell project because the learning process would inform projects on other tower blogs that are in the pipeline for refurbishment
02:04:56 refurbishment residents said the lack of trust and fear of the tmo needed to be investigated independently
02:05:03 and then it goes on dc asked on behalf of the compact for an independent person to investigate the outstanding issues and complaints vb suggested that jb
02:05:15 vb suggested that jb could do this but jb pointed out that she already tried and failed to get a number of matters resolved it was important that it should be looked at by an outside person independent of the council and the tmo now just that
02:05:28 of the council and the tmo now just that last sentence there who do you remember who it was that said it was important that it should be looked at by an outside person independent of the council and the tmo was that you or was that
02:05:39 was that you or was that uh victoria borick
02:05:43 several people it was lady borick um blackman myself
02:05:52 the whole i mean that was our most significant that was our number one issue yeah
02:06:01 and why did you ask well she asked for an independent person to investigate the outstanding issues and complaints what was the value of an of independence
02:06:12 what was the value of an of independence here can you explain to us the tmo had a monopoly effectively on social housing in the borough
02:06:25 they didn't have enough i think they did i don't understand fully like like why or how you have a monopoly but i do know that i do know about power
02:06:36 but i do know that i do know about power dynamics
02:06:37 dynamics and if you don't have competition like your performance it isn't necessary to perform to a higher level without any competition in the borough there was an absence of competition in social housing
02:06:48 competition in social housing so you didn't have to perform it was quite clear was fire safety one of the concerns that you wanted the independent uh
02:06:59 that you wanted the independent uh investigator to look at
02:07:03 it wasn't the preoccupation at the time no i understand it was a it was a result can we go to tm01011718
02:07:16 can we go to tm01011718 please fire performance is it's often times the same time you have good quality oftentimes your safety or your fire safety will be good as well
02:07:27 safety will be good as well you know you're not looking at fire safety independently of other qualities of a building is that your experience very much you can talk to
02:07:38 can talk to experts in the area of health and safety and they'll tell you the same thing
02:07:43 that's how we we train people i train people in construction businesses in the uk and overseas in health and safety and in performance and oftentimes it's quality health and
02:07:54 and oftentimes it's quality health and safety
02:07:55 safety costs it's not independent safety isn't independent of quality now we may risk trying to exploit evidence here mr collins
02:08:06 here mr collins time to do it
02:08:09 i appreciate your your professional background very much but i think we better be careful that's why i it's what i did what i did so i got involved indeed and and i absolutely understand
02:08:20 indeed and and i absolutely understand that
02:08:20 that can i just show you this document it's a an email from councillor blakeman to uh
02:08:29 various people but in particular robert black and barbara matthews and sasha jevons as you can see subject grenfell tower is season it's the 4th of january 2016.
02:08:41 the 4th of january 2016. and if you go a little bit lower down the page to the very bottom you'll you can see that what i've just shown you is a response to an email from you to victoria borick on the 3rd of january 2016 which runs over to the top of page 2.
02:08:53 which runs over to the top of page 2. that's a
02:08:54 that's a detailed email i just want to look at with you
02:08:57 with you uh you refer to the meeting of the 14th of december in the first paragraph then in the second paragraph you say as you heard there are many problems here there are many individual cases problems and issues as a residents
02:09:09 problems and issues as a residents association grenfell tower compact and the language of tmo we are overwhelmed by individual cases many of us having our own we've found the best chance an individual has of getting a successful resolution to a problem
02:09:20 resolution to a problem is to communicate with the tmo through our local councillors as a residents association we receive no response from the tmo to the problems of individual residents and it occurs like there are too many individual issues for us to keep abreast of
02:09:31 issues for us to keep abreast of too it is the problem is seen from the level of community we wish to see addressed which is why we asked you to come and visit us and why i'm writing this letter now you refer there to being overwhelmed
02:09:42 now you refer there to being overwhelmed by individual cases and why were individual cases being raised with the compact group if the role of the compact group was to deal with
02:09:50 with common issues common to all residents or common at least to all members of the compact
02:09:56 compact they are common we all have our common and slightly different issues with the windows with the doors
02:10:07 issues with the windows with the doors i don't know with the pipe work they're all similar right so when you say there are too many individual issues for us to keep abreast of do you mean there are too many
02:10:18 of do you mean there are too many individual instances of the same kind of complaint or same kind of concern or too many individual and issues uh of different kinds you have different kinds
02:10:30 kinds you have some people who've got more severe issues
02:10:36 or they can understand english or
02:10:41 their mental health or they may be vulnerable and then we've got other issues where i mean edward's being victimized by people within the community you know
02:10:53 by people within the community you know like like we weren't able to do everything when you said put up a brave font and try and deal with and we didn't have all the time in the world right
02:11:05 world right when did grenfell compact receive individual complaints from residents about
02:11:13 about anything within the building it did and what did it do with those complaints when a resident raised a complaint about something in their flat what did what did the
02:11:22 did the compact do and we raise those through our to
02:11:26 our to our counselors right as individual complaints or as compact complaints as individual and compact there'd be individual complaints
02:11:38 individual complaints and more community complaints was there a process within the compact for working out which
02:11:44 out which which were individual complaints affecting only one flat or one individual resident and which were common complaints common to most or all of the residents of the building
02:11:54 building i'm sorry mr millet there were there were many complaints and i'm not able to explain what we did with them all if it was obvious that complaint was an individual they
02:12:05 that complaint was an individual they may be able to do something through their
02:12:07 their to the councillors
02:12:11 there was did you get the impression that the compact had become the first port of call for any resident with a complaint or a
02:12:23 for any resident with a complaint or a problem or concern about their flat as opposed to going directly to the tmo and using their complaints procedure
02:12:32 some would come to us [Music]
02:12:37 [Music] and talk about their issues yeah
02:12:42 someone go to the tmo i don't know
02:12:46 if we go to the third paragraph in this email which is still on the screen you say you heard but a small number of the individual issues people have faced and continue to face on a daily basis
02:12:57 and continue to face on a daily basis it's shocking but no surprise to me that when we carried out our survey at the end of november 68 of residents two out of every three said that they experienced being lied to threatened harassed or pressured by the
02:13:08 threatened harassed or pressured by the tmo in the last 12 months i know we need to stick to the facts of what's happening rather than inflaming things which is why we surveyed residents to get a handle on what's actually happening
02:13:19 happening [Music]
02:13:21 [Music] now the 68 there do you know how many uh residents you actually talked to yes i'm not sure without the detail in
02:13:32 yes i'm not sure without the detail in the spreadsheet right there are numbers in a spreadsheet 70 60 or 70.
02:13:44 70 60 or 70. and of those individuals responding did they give you an insight about what they did about their own experiences some told stories at length
02:13:58 some told stories at length been an hour on the doorstep with someone talking about their their issues did did they tell you anything about whether they'd use the tmo's own complaints procedure
02:14:10 use the tmo's own complaints procedure most didn't have a clue right about the complaints even its existence right did you did you ask them
02:14:18 ask them most people they wouldn't do it no no did you ask them about whether did you ask them and it could did you ask them the question well do you know about the tmos complaints procedure
02:14:29 tmos complaints procedure they knew some knew some had used most were were not comfortable with it or with the resolution with the
02:14:40 with it or with the resolution with the solution
02:14:41 solution it led to now in the fourth paragraph it took a long time to complain you had to write in plain english and
02:14:52 you had to write in plain english and send a letter or an email you might get a response you might not you might have to
02:14:57 to it might take months there might not be a response [Music]
02:15:05 [Music] you had to keep on it on them you won't get an answer unlikely well i didn't
02:15:16 say i'd often have to yeah right
02:15:21 going back to the uh email that you wrote uh in the fourth main paragraph down fifth i think
02:15:32 fourth main paragraph down fifth i think middle of the page you say i believe it would be foolish do you see it it says that i believe it would be foolish to imagine the problems we and you hear about or simply a result of the construction project yes the construction project has increased their frequency but
02:15:44 increased their frequency but but listening to people instances of neglect poor service incompetence poor communication and even malice has been happening for years it is the force and the number of issues which have come to the surface during the
02:15:55 have come to the surface during the refurbishment project which have led to the residents association being formed and residents demanding something must be done to change the long-term treatment of our community now you moved
02:16:07 treatment of our community now you moved into the tower in april 2014 didn't you i did how did you know how did you go about learning about residents concerns
02:16:18 residents concerns which predated the refurbishment project spending time on the doorstep meeting people
02:16:26 people outside the sports center talking to people
02:16:29 people spending time in meetings listening hours
02:16:33 hours hundreds of stories like i'm not sure i can relay i can even remember
02:16:43 i got this sense that something wasn't right for the tower and people weren't treated well with respect it wasn't like respect was
02:16:59 can we go to page three of your your letter your email and uh in the second main paragraph down you say
02:17:07 you say furthermore do you see you say furthermore given we have a slot with the rbkc scrutiny committee this coming wednesday at 6 30 pm it would be most beneficial
02:17:18 pm it would be most beneficial if you could find a moment to speak to individual members of that committee and to ask to take seriously the issues we will be raising how did you get a slot with the rbkc
02:17:29 how did you get a slot with the rbkc housing and scrutiny committee
02:17:34 that's a good question how did we get a slot
02:17:38 slot i think judith blakeman one we had a petition yes where of the 60 to 70 households
02:17:49 where of the 60 to 70 households we spoke to 90 told us they'd like an independent investigation into the tmo and the refurbishment [Music]
02:17:59 [Music] and that wasn't a joke we felt insulted
02:18:05 at the time so i don't quite know how that led
02:18:09 that led to a meeting
02:18:12 but there was a petition and then judith blakeman most likely i see were you aware of yeah i'm sorry daughter character i'm sorry megan edward as well
02:18:25 megan edward as well right were you aware of any process whereby residents of grenfell tower could raise a complaint before the rbkc housing a property
02:18:37 before the rbkc housing a property scrutiny committee
02:18:40 i'm not aware
02:18:44 were you aware that the tmo reported to the rbkc
02:18:47 the rbkc housing and property scrutiny committee [Music]
02:18:51 [Music] i wasn't aware well kind of by the end of things
02:18:55 of things i was aware
02:19:01 [Applause] but not at the time not in january 2016. can i ask you
02:19:13 to look at met 3070990 please
02:19:29 now this is an email chain in july 2017 we looked at this earlier in your evidence mr collins can we go to page three at the very bottom [Music]
02:19:42 where you'll see that there's an email from can i interject mr millett of course
02:19:48 course i didn't want to lead the compact like it wasn't a thing for me like i didn't want to do this i would have much rather of done as little as i possibly could
02:19:59 little as i possibly could i could not be interested in the tower and
02:20:03 and it's a bit too much but like i wasn't [Music]
02:20:06 [Music] out to get anything i was just listening to people
02:20:10 to people and trying to represent as best that's all that's all i did all i tried to do
02:20:19 to do yes and i'm really sorry no it's it's very helpful to hear your story
02:20:26 story um can i just ask you to look at this document at the very bottom of page three
02:20:37 page three uh you can see that there is a line that says on 4th july 2016 at david collins wrote you see that
02:20:48 we'll take it slowly let's turn the page we can't see the address e but if we go over to page four we can see that you are writing to rock now of all the names in this inquiry that we've been
02:21:00 names in this inquiry that we've been able to identify we have only come up with one candidate uh and that's councillor fielding melon would i be right about that you are now if we look at the third
02:21:11 you are now if we look at the third paragraph
02:21:11 paragraph down you say at grenfell tower you see you might count it as the fourth paragraph down the grenfell tower we
02:21:22 paragraph down the grenfell tower we recognized that we were in effect guinea pigs
02:21:25 pigs for a wider regeneration program the council is to undertake we know that works will endure course commence at treverton tower and raymed tower
02:21:34 tower presumably also while residents are in occupation as well as sharing the resident viewpoint and experience we would like to meet and discuss what can be learned from our experiences so that a grenfell pathway for future
02:21:45 so that a grenfell pathway for future tower block refurbishments can be devised
02:21:48 devised to assist the council the contractors and the tmo in the future our recommendations for this pathway would include and then you have a list of of them
02:21:59 and then you have a list of of them uh underneath that paragraph and you we can see them number one promises made to residents are kept to a senior manager three clear communications
02:22:10 communications personable for flexibility in the approach
02:22:13 approach i'm summarizing i hope not unfairly and so on and also importantly six the issues residents raise are treated as valid and accurate in the first instance respected and dealt with fairly
02:22:24 instance respected and dealt with fairly quickly and appropriately um it goes on over the page but i think in april
02:22:35 but i think in april it that was so important in april 2015 that would have been the point of time to listen but it wasn't the complaint wasn't heard at that time
02:22:50 the complaint wasn't heard at that time now you go over the page to page five and you can see that there are there are actually a total of 15 uh recommendations that you're making to the tmo
02:23:00 the tmo in a spirit of assisting them to learn lessons from the grenfell tower refurbishment i think is which is what you've said my question is how did you arrive at these recommendations
02:23:13 judith blakeman helped a lot right she had she had the wherewithal to begin it i think and then there are some that i
02:23:26 and then there are some that i that i wrote that i added right can you remember just looking at um back to page four and looking again at page five perhaps we could have pages
02:23:38 page five perhaps we could have pages four and five up together which ones you uh uh had added there they all are can you point out any that your what were yours
02:23:50 that your what were yours promises made to residents are kept um there's a senior manager i'm a director of resource executive accountability um
02:24:03 executive accountability um budget control number four there's enough flexibility in the approach to communicate alternative forms of communications if they're needed
02:24:14 they're needed um formal collective consultation i don't know what about item 10 on page five the tmo will ensure it knows and understands the personal circumstances of every resident
02:24:26 of every resident and make special arrangements where these are needed and no right
02:24:35 now um you exchanged further correspondence with rock fielding melon about the grenfell tower review uh as you called it if i can take you up to the first page of this email wrong
02:24:45 wrong we could see an email you sent on the 11th of july 2016.
02:24:53 to rock fielding melon copy to judith blakeman
02:24:57 blakeman and if we look at the last paragraph on page one
02:25:01 page one you say this as far as i can tell the biggest issue with the tmo report is that the tmo were asked to complete it we could talk about the balance of power on wednesday and how it affects people's behavior one of the things i've
02:25:13 people's behavior one of the things i've observed this past year or two is a lack of checks and balances around and upon the tmo and how it operates the organization being asked to investigate the allegations made about itself
02:25:23 itself is a perfect example and the apparent acceptance of the report without question is another example there is much to say about the balance of power but it is perhaps best to leave it till we have time together in person i look forward to seeing you on
02:25:34 i look forward to seeing you on wednesday
02:25:36 wednesday how did you come to observe a as you call it lack of checks and balances on the tmo and its operations
02:25:45 apparently there were not any
02:25:50 i couldn't see anyone seeing a problem and then
02:26:00 doing anything there was no challenge on the tml what was your understanding of
02:26:07 of rbkc's role in overseeing the tmo's management of grenfell tower including its complaints processes
02:26:18 um hold on i'm not sure follow did you did you have any understanding
02:26:29 let me try the question again did you have any understanding at any time during the period we've been looking at about rbkc's oversight of the tma's management of grenfell
02:26:46 tower
02:26:53 it's a bit hard was there oversight well that's a different question am i that may be the question you had in your mind at the time but what was there was an absence of oversight
02:27:05 there was an absence of oversight that must be clear [Music]
02:27:10 [Music] there wasn't oversight there wasn't accountability it's it would appear there was no no accountability i haven't seen any since
02:27:21 since the inquiry began from the tmo
02:27:27 so where were the checks and balances i haven't seen any mr collins i've come to the end over egging this
02:27:39 but i'm not sure i haven't seen any checks and balances and whether rock was able to
02:27:46 able to to check and balance like i haven't seen him again
02:27:50 him again um i tried to meet him after after the tower fire and i wasn't able to to see him to talk about what happened why was that i
02:28:04 why was that i i don't know did he get he wasn't he wasn't there right anymore i see he was he wasn't at the building mr collins i
02:28:15 he wasn't at the building mr collins i i've i i've come to the end of my prepared questions but you may not have come to the end of what you wanted to say
02:28:20 say so i didn't want to cut you off at all is there anything you wanted to say on the subject of the last question we discussed together i don't know the balance of power
02:28:33 i don't know the balance of power i don't know okay mr chairman i i have come to the end of my prepared questions but i anticipate there may be one or two further questions waiting in the wings for me to examine yes and i i it is half past four and i am
02:28:45 and i i it is half past four and i am going to trespass on your time to go beyond just to take a break to examine those questions do you think 15 minutes will be long enough i
02:28:51 enough i i hope it's long enough well if longer is required you can just no i'm grateful mr collins um as you've heard mr millett's come to the end of his prepared questions but
02:29:02 his prepared questions but he needs an opportunity to check that he's not omitted anything and indeed other people who are not sitting in the room but are watching the proceedings may wish to suggest further questions that we ought to ask you so
02:29:16 that we ought to ask you so we will have a break now and probably until quarter to five unless anyone suggests we need more time and then at that point we'll see whether there are any more questions for you i'm
02:29:27 there are any more questions for you i'm sorry to prolong the afternoon a bit more but i think uh it's the only way we can do it and we'll have to get you away before very long
02:29:38 to get you away before very long all right so we'll we'll break now as i said to you on previous occasions uh please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while we're out on the break
02:29:47 break and we'll see you at quarter to five all right
02:29:51 right good thank you very much indeed right of
02:30:02 course
02:45:26 okay
02:45:32 [Applause] yes i wonder if you could get mr defund sorry not mr defy mr collins for giving mr collins i see you're back there you can obviously see me and i hope you hear me
02:45:43 obviously see me and i hope you hear me too
02:45:44 too yes thank you yes good thank you very much one now we'll find out if there are any more questions for you not not mr defaunt no no i said i apologize for that straight away
02:45:55 apologize for that straight away mr collins uh i have one or two questions for you my first is a general one did you do you remember receiving the tmo ryden grenfell tower regeneration
02:46:08 newsletters some i did okay i read some in detail with interest
02:46:20 were you aware that some of those newsletters contained reference to the tmas complaints process and how to raise a complaint i did not or i wasn't clear
02:46:31 i did not or i wasn't clear let me show you an example can we go to jrp
02:46:36 jrp six zeros two eight please
02:46:44 whether the complaints process worked is a relevant line of income not a question and this document is dated may 2016 as
02:46:57 and this document is dated may 2016 as you can see uh and it's headed grenfell tower regeneration newsletter with tmo and ryden's
02:47:07 ryden's um branding at the top and there's a recent photo of the building and then underneath it um by may 16 they would have included the complaints
02:47:19 they would have included the complaints procedure
02:47:22 because like we told them enough things by that time oh okay let's that's whether earlier in the project it would have been
02:47:34 have been right so let's let me see if i can follow that up a little bit because i was going to ask you to go please to page five in this document
02:47:45 five in this document and go to the pink box where it says complaints and i'll just read it to you we always want to ensure that complaints are dealt with efficiently to help us help you please always report problems as they happen
02:47:56 problems as they happen you should do this first to lind apprentice or christina stefanu then contact claire williams if it isn't resolved quickly kctms complaints procedure will then operate your complaint will be acknowledged within two working days and will investigate and respond within 10
02:48:08 will investigate and respond within 10 working days
02:48:12 well if only right i think the transcript recorded your mirth uh
02:48:18 mirth uh before you answered there but um i think the audio will reaction is a little yeah my concrete question was to the best of your recollection when did the reference to complaints
02:48:29 when did the reference to complaints first make its appearance in the refurbishment newsletters i don't know was it about this time
02:48:37 i don't know in general terms is it your evidence that the reason why this
02:48:44 this newsletter this regular newsletter about the refurbishment included something about complaints was because of your or the compact's efforts in that respect i would not have a clue right
02:48:57 i would not have a clue right the reason i say that is because i thought you said something earlier which suggested that that was the case when you received the likelihood it may have been included because we
02:49:08 it may have been included because we complained but i don't know for sure right
02:49:19 did you ever yourself have cause that is me being suspicious yeah did you ever yourself have caused to look at this pink box see that there was a way you
02:49:30 pink box see that there was a way you could complain to the tmo and then utilize that route i always took that route i talked to everyone right
02:49:41 everyone right i tried to
02:49:44 get people on board
02:49:48 i wasn't able to do that i tried but it didn't work you weren't likely to get a response quickly
02:50:02 if there were simple things
02:50:05 that could be fixed within a flat for instance
02:50:09 instance if there was a fixture or fitting that wasn't quite working you could of course you could get that resolved with a riben representative you could get yeah you could get that you could get that you could get that
02:50:20 you could get that you could get that working
02:50:23 working a fixture or a fitting
02:50:27 riding would be quite unmeaninable or helpful even at times if they could the workmen were quite friendly
02:50:38 generally did their best
02:50:47 yes thank you very much but that wasn't about the tmo complaints no i understand that well unless there's anything you'd like to add in answer to
02:50:58 to add in answer to my um question mr collins um it only remains for me to express my gratitude to you for giving us your assistance today with our
02:51:09 giving us your assistance today with our investigations so we're very grateful and uh thank you very much indeed thank you for your time yes it just remains then mr collins meters thank you very much for making yourself available to
02:51:21 yourself available to give evidence i'm sorry that we've gone rather longer into the afternoon or perhaps even the early evening as far as you're concerned than we'd hoped but it has been very helpful to hear from you and hear what you have to tell us so
02:51:33 you have to tell us so thank you very much indeed and that's all we have for you so now uh you're free to finish
02:51:41 all right so thank you very thank you very much and um and goodbye chairwoman mr chairman
02:51:56 yes mr millet no yes that presumably uh that is uh we have for today that is the evidence for today uh and tomorrow we have uh four uh
02:52:07 uh and tomorrow we have uh four uh further witnesses uh from the bsr uh groups uh um whom mr rawat will be taking
02:52:14 taking good thank you very much and that will be at 10 o'clock tomorrow yes thank you very much
02:52:18 very much thank you very much until 10 o'clock tomorrow then please thank you
02:52:38 you