Testimony from Grenfell residents and survivors about their lack of awareness of stay put policy, inadequate fire safety information, and barriers to raising concerns with the TMO.
00:00:25 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to hear more evidence today from various people who were involved in complaints and relationships with the
00:00:38 complaints and relationships with the tmo and the council and i think mr rawat our first witnesses miss casote is that right that's right good morning mr chairman good morning members of the panel our first witness who i'd like to call is
00:00:50 first witness who i'd like to call is betty cassotti good thank you very much
00:01:05 [Music]
00:01:10 good morning mr ceti um i understand you like to take the oath and i think the words should be on the screen in front of you have you got the testament there someone given you a copy of the that's
00:01:21 someone given you a copy of the that's it take that in your right hand and then read the
00:01:23 read the words on the screen if you would please i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now do sit down make
00:01:34 thank you very much now do sit down make yourself comfortable
00:01:45 and help yourself to water if you wanted to under this point thank you
00:02:01 good yes mr rowland when you're ready thank you mr chairman good morning miss cassette good morning can i start by thanking you for coming to give evidence to the inquiry today
00:02:13 evidence to the inquiry today thank you your willingness to continue to assist with our investigation is very much appreciated thank you my questions are intended to be short and simple
00:02:25 intended to be short and simple but if you have any difficulty understanding a question or you'd like me to repeat it or rephrase it
00:02:32 it then please do just ask me also could i just ask you to remember to keep your voice up okay and to speak slowly and the reason for that is that the transcriber that you can see over there
00:02:44 transcriber that you can see over there um needs to be able to record your answers clearly and accurately okay and if at any time you'd like a break
00:02:52 break please let me know i will do now you've given two witness statements to the inquiry they're going to appear in front on the screen in front of you
00:03:03 screen in front of you as we go through your evidence today but could we just put up your first uh enquiry statement which is iws 50768
00:03:14 50768 now that's the you what we call your phase one witness statement um it's already been put into the inquiry record and it's been published on our website
00:03:27 published on our website the second statement which we've made you've made for the purposes of phase two
00:03:31 two is at iws401775
00:03:38 now can we deal with some formalities in relation to that second statement could we go to page nine please can you confirm that that's your signature there miss kasati
00:03:50 signature there miss kasati that is yes have you had a chance to read that statement recently i have done so and can you confirm that its contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief i do now
00:04:04 i do now everyone here will have had a chance to read your two statements and what i'd like to do today is to ask you some additional questions about your experiences of living in grenfell tower
00:04:16 living in grenfell tower could we start with some background is it right that you moved into the tower in 1996 that is right and you had a tenancy
00:04:28 that is right and you had a tenancy was that with rbkc it was now in your phase 2 statement you also refer to the tmo before the events of the 14th of june
00:04:41 before the events of the 14th of june 2017
00:04:43 2017 what did you understand to be the respective roles of rbkc and the tmo in relation to the tower
00:04:52 tower i understood the way the landlords which one of them was the landlords rbkc and what did you think the the job of the tmo was
00:05:04 the tmo was it was like a management board that's what i thought
00:05:09 you mentioned the phrase management board
00:05:12 board did you know that as a tenant you could become a member of the tmo i wasn't aware
00:05:20 were you aware that um the management board
00:05:24 board included tenants and leaseholders amongst its membership i wasn't aware
00:05:33 now we'll be looking at your phase two statement in more detail as we go on but what you do in that statement is set out a number of concerns that you had
00:05:44 concerns that you had over various issues such as repairs and the refurbishment when you raised your concerns were you doing them by yourself
00:05:55 doing them by yourself yes i was so would it be right to say that you didn't go through any residence association or group
00:06:04 initially no well did there come a time when you did use a residence group or association i did go and ask for advice at the end
00:06:15 i did go and ask for advice at the end yes
00:06:16 yes and when you say the end when was that it was
00:06:19 it was after the boilers had been fitted so was that during the course of the refurbishment yes it was and which resident group did you approach
00:06:29 approach um
00:06:33 it was the group that was dealing with the tenants i can't remember what it was called but it was dealing with tenants complaints it was an indep it was formed by
00:06:45 it was an indep it was formed by a group of tenants living in greenfield tower
00:06:49 tower is the the name grenfell compact familiar to you it was in greenville compact what about the grenfell action group it could have been the grain for action
00:07:01 it could have been the grain for action group
00:07:02 group thank you were you aware or ever aware of the
00:07:06 of the lancaster west residents association
00:07:12 no i don't remember that one
00:07:19 um because i move on now just to ask you some questions about the ways that we used to give residents like yourself
00:07:27 yourself information about fire safety and we can start by looking at your first
00:07:33 first phase 1 statement which is iws
00:07:39 50768 and page 5 of that please could we expand paragraph 21
00:07:54 if i read out paragraph 21 to you mr soti you say there i do remember that the fire policy was to stay put unless you see a fire or had been told
00:08:05 unless you see a fire or had been told to leave by a firefighter i remember seeing a notice pinned up on a noticeboard by the lifts which said this
00:08:15 do you remember when you first saw that notice by the lifts
00:08:24 it had been pinned on the notice board for a long for a while i think
00:08:31 i can't exactly remember when i saw it um if you take the the time of the fire as a mark which was june
00:08:42 june 2017 was it years before that or months before that
00:08:49 it was years before that so closer to that time to the time of the fire did you ever see a notice not not pinned to a notice board but fixed by the lifts
00:09:02 fixed by the lifts there was a notice fixed by the lifts closer to the fire yes thank you now the time when you saw this notice pinned up on a notice board um was that the first time that you
00:09:14 um was that the first time that you became aware that the policy in the event of a fire was to stay put
00:09:21 yes it was and i appreciate time can be difficult but so just so that we can give it some context you were aware of the state
00:09:32 the state policy some years before the fire happened would that be fair to say yes it is now i appreciate that you moved into your home in grenfell tower
00:09:44 home in grenfell tower in 1996. can you remember whether when you moved into the flat you were given any fire safety advice
00:09:55 no i wanted to show you a document if we could have please tmo 20870665
00:10:16 if i explain to you mr soti what this is it's the draft of a letter from the tmo to residents living in its properties and as we can see at the top it refers
00:10:28 and as we can see at the top it refers to fire safety i don't need to go um through the detail of it
00:10:33 of it but do you ever remember receiving a letter
00:10:38 letter from the ctmo about fire safety
00:10:43 i don't remember
00:10:49 [Music] did you ever visit the tmo's website
00:10:58 i don't think i did did you know that they had a website
00:11:07 i knew they had a website but i knew the website for complaints um did anyone ever tell you that you could find advice about fire safety on the tmos website no
00:11:24 um i'd like to show you now another document please it's
00:11:31 iws401762 and if we go to the second page of that
00:11:40 document hopefully the fact that it's upside down isn't going to be too much trouble miss cassotti but can i just explain what it is it's
00:11:48 is it's um now that we can see as you can see it's it's a headed tenancy handbook and it's you can see that it's from the tmo
00:11:59 it's you can see that it's from the tmo you can see tenant management association there this document has been provided to the inquiry by another grenfell tower resident mohamed rasool he lived with
00:12:12 resident mohamed rasool he lived with his family in flat 25 on the fifth floor and he moved into flat 25 in 1994. mr rasul's recollection and his evidence
00:12:23 mr rasul's recollection and his evidence is that he was provided with this handbook
00:12:26 handbook in or around 2004. now you obviously have been living in grenfell towers since 1996 did you at any time while living in the
00:12:37 did you at any time while living in the tower
00:12:39 tower receive a handbook similar to this or like this
00:12:45 i think i did [Music]
00:12:50 can you remember when when you first saw a tenancy handbook at the time i moved in grenfell tower they did give me a handbook
00:13:03 and did they ever provide you with an updated version of the handbook
00:13:14 i don't remember if we just go to page 28
00:13:20 28 in this document please
00:13:26 um mr sergi can you see there's a heading
00:13:30 heading preventing fires which begins if you have a smoke detector in your home you're responsible for testing it regularly to see that it works if it's battery operated you must replace the battery if it starts beeping
00:13:43 replace the battery if it starts beeping irregularly and then it refers to putting out cigarettes not drying clothes over heaters not lea don't leave the kitchen when using chip pans
00:13:52 pans now now that so that in this document that mr assault has provided there is some
00:13:57 some fire safety advice um thinking on it now was that the sort of advice that you were given in your handbook i do remember the
00:14:08 in your handbook i do remember the advice on smoke detectors
00:14:14 and uh yeah i think this is right can you remember sort of going back to the when you were given the handbook whether the handbook
00:14:26 given the handbook whether the handbook that you were given whether that had any advice about whether you should stay put or whether you should leave the building in the event of a fire
00:14:35 i remember this they put policy on the notice board and by the lifts i could have seen it in the handbook but i don't remember because when i read the
00:14:47 i don't remember because when i read the handbook it probably after reading it i put it aside and just the reminder was the one on the left and the on the notice board um can i try another document and show you
00:14:59 can i try another document and show you a different document and ask your question about it it's
00:15:10 cst-406750
00:15:14 again if if i explain you can see the lfb
00:15:17 lfb logo in the bottom right hand corner of that document and it's a leaflet that's titled home fire safety guide for purpose-built flats and masonettes
00:15:29 for purpose-built flats and masonettes um what i'd like to ask you please mr cassottis do you ever remember receiving a leaflet like this through your door no
00:15:40 through your door no i don't remember this one do you ever remember seeing leaflets like this in the communal areas of grenfell tower no i don't remember
00:15:54 no i don't remember um
00:15:57 could we now have please um tmo double zero eight seven three five four
00:16:06 nine
00:16:31 thank you um this is uh the front page of link magazine and it's from autumn winter 2015
00:16:42 and it's from autumn winter 2015 described as a bumper issue it's the magazine that the tmo would issue to
00:16:49 issue to residents do you remember receiving copies of link magazine through your door
00:17:00 there were some linked magazines that came through my door yes and what did you do with them
00:17:09 i could have read some articles in them because it covered quite a broad number of articles it covered if it's a magazine i'm thinking about it cover training as well
00:17:21 cover training as well um functions that were going around going on around in the estate
00:17:28 um let's go to page 25 in this document
00:17:36 now you can see that there's a image there of a smoke alarm and heading what to do if a fire breaks out and then there's um subheadings in your
00:17:47 and then there's um subheadings in your home
00:17:48 home and then in your block but inside your flat
00:17:52 thinking back on it now were you aware that advice about fire safety was being given through link magazine it wasn't always given
00:18:04 given but um do you remember ever reading a copy of the magazine and seeing fire safety advice in it no i don't
00:18:16 putting the magazine aside were you ever made aware that there might be information about fire safety in link magazine
00:18:29 sorry can you um did anybody ever tell you you want to read
00:18:36 read link magazine because it might have some advice about fire safety in it no if that had been said to you would you have taken more notice of the magazine
00:18:48 magazine i probably would have yes
00:18:53 um so we're showing you quite a number of documents but the next one i'd like to show you is a rt402606
00:19:11 is a rt402606 and just to explain what this document is it's the first page of a july 2014 edition of the grenfell tower
00:19:22 edition of the grenfell tower regeneration newsletter and can you see miss cassotti that it's got the tmos logo on it and ryden's logo do you see that i do
00:19:33 now these were distributed during the course of the refurbishment do you remember receiving newsletters like this i don't remember this one
00:19:46 like this i don't remember this one but uh leaving aside this one in general do you remember getting copies of the grenfell tower regeneration newsletter i don't remember thank you
00:20:06 i don't remember thank you if i could just bring it together a little bit please mrs cassotti would it be fair to say that your understanding of what to do if there was a fire
00:20:18 there was a fire was to stay put yes and was that your understanding if there was a fire during the course of the refurbishment
00:20:30 yes you were only allowed to leave the building if you saw the fire that's what the
00:20:36 the advice was on the naughty spot stay put unless you see the fire you see a fire or something and aside aside from the notice you saw pinned to
00:20:48 aside from the notice you saw pinned to the board
00:20:49 the board did your information about what to do you know
00:20:53 you know if there was a fire in the building come from any other source
00:20:58 i could have discussed it with my neighbors
00:21:06 do you remember actually having conversations with your neighbors about fire safety
00:21:14 on um
00:21:19 i did yes because i think once when we had a fire i could have spoken about uh this stay put
00:21:26 put policy that i wasn't very comfortable with
00:21:30 with i don't remember exactly when but i did speak about it are you able just to sort of help us with with when that fire was must have been the early fires
00:21:44 was must have been the early fires that happened in the shoot area
00:21:48 do you sort of can you fix it to a year at all or a range of years
00:21:57 um
00:22:05 it was way before it was before the refurbishment i should say yeah thank you now before we um move on and just a couple of questions about um
00:22:19 fire safety when the refurbishment was ongoing
00:22:24 ongoing during that period were you ever provided with any updates about work to fire safety features in the building such as the smoke ventilation system
00:22:42 no i don't remember that
00:22:46 do you remember um ever being told that a
00:22:49 a fire safety feature was not working no i don't remember that
00:22:57 um do you ever remember being notified about
00:23:00 about whether any work would affect uh your access
00:23:04 access or egress from the central staircase no
00:23:12 um can we go back i want to take you back to your phase 2 statement could we look please at iws401775 page seven of the document
00:23:25 um if i draw your attention please mrs cassotti just to paragraph 23. do you have that i do thank you what you say there
00:23:36 i do thank you what you say there is my front door was replaced around 2017.
00:23:40 2017. two i'm sorry i'll start that again my front door was replaced around 2013. i remember that not long after it was installed a few weeks i think the door got jammed and would
00:23:51 i think the door got jammed and would not shut
00:23:53 not shut i called the tmo to report that my door was broken it took around an hour for someone to arrive to fix it the person that came adjusted the mechanism on the back of the door which had previously made it close
00:24:04 had previously made it close automatically so that it no longer worked and my door remained open not closing automatically i remember asking whether this was a problem the person that did the work told me it
00:24:15 the person that did the work told me it was not an issue and that it was causing complications i did not really think about the significance of this at the time and i accepted what he said i was more concerned at the time that my
00:24:26 i was more concerned at the time that my door could close so i could be safe in my flat now you also said something about
00:24:32 about this in your first statement and just so that we can have the full context let's take a look at that
00:24:40 iws50768 page five please
00:24:55 let's look at paragraph 19.
00:25:02 um what you say there miss cassotti is before the electrics were changed some years ago our front doors were replaced
00:25:10 replaced we were told that our doors were being replaced with fire doors the new doors closed automatically a few months after my door was replaced it got stuck and would not shut it was around 6 pm in the evening the
00:25:22 it was around 6 pm in the evening the tmo sent someone over to fix it the person who came to fix it removed a piece of metal from the middle of the door
00:25:29 door so that it was not stuck anymore but ever since then it did not shut automatically um hopefully i won't show you one last document before i ask you some questions
00:25:40 document before i ask you some questions and hopefully we'll be able to bring it up
00:25:42 up it might be a bit tricky could we have please
00:25:54 rbk3053297
00:26:34 um we need to scroll down please to row one three
00:26:39 one three zero seven
00:26:55 thank you um
00:27:00 miss cassette if i could just explain to you that this is a spreadsheet that's maintained by the tmo it shows repairs undertaken to flats and we see in that row a reference to
00:27:11 and we see in that row a reference to your flat
00:27:12 your flat flat 41 and the date is the 21st of february 2014 and if we look along that row do you see
00:27:25 and if we look along that row do you see a box which is recorded as special instructions what it says in that box is locks and fittings locks broken or not working
00:27:36 fittings locks broken or not working front door front door lock broken resident residence unable to close door now
00:27:44 door now we looked just a moment ago at your statement where you set out your recollection of the problems with your door obviously you didn't have this spreadsheet when you made those
00:27:56 this spreadsheet when you made those statements but looking at this do you think that what's written in that spreadsheet must refer to the issue that you reported in relation to your front door
00:28:07 reported in relation to your front door it must but it wasn't the lock it was the door was stuck it wouldn't close and um it must have been in 2014 because
00:28:19 um it must have been in 2014 because that's the date that um is written there you would accept that wouldn't you it could be this one yes now you've pointed out that it wasn't the
00:28:30 you've pointed out that it wasn't the lock
00:28:31 lock can you tell us a bit more about the problem with the door i got home one day and opened the door normally it shut automatically but on
00:28:42 normally it shut automatically but on that day the door just got stuck and it didn't move i tried to push it it wouldn't i couldn't push it closed um so it remained open i called i phoned
00:28:53 so it remained open i called i phoned the tml
00:28:54 the tml tmo and they sent somebody to come and fix the door what he did when he arrived is he said it was the mechanism
00:29:05 mechanism that was closing the door automatically that are jammed and the mechanism was in the middle of the door not at the top like
00:29:15 like the normal doors we know so he pulled out a metal rod from inside the door and just gave it to me to keep aside i asked if it was going to be a problem
00:29:26 i asked if it was going to be a problem he actually said it's causing more problems than it should
00:29:32 should and left it there
00:29:35 and was that the way your front door remained
00:29:38 remained it remained like that nobody ever came to fix it again um did anyone from the tmo ever make you aware at any point during
00:29:50 ever make you aware at any point during your tenancy of the importance of these mechanisms on your front door nobody made me aware but
00:30:01 but i presumed as long as i kept it shut it would be okay
00:30:10 were you aware of any other neighbours experiencing problems with their front doors getting stuck and not closing automatically i wasn't aware i was only aware because
00:30:21 i wasn't aware i was only aware because the man who came to fix the door mentioned that it had caused other it had caused problems in other plants in other flats yes thank you
00:30:32 um did anyone acting on behalf of the tmo
00:30:36 tmo ever ask you for access to your flat so that um
00:30:39 that um they could inspect the front door nobody did
00:30:44 did did anyone ever knock on your door um and introduce themselves as a fire risk assessor working for the tmo i don't remember anyone
00:30:56 so it's positioned that after 2014 your front door wasn't closing automatically and that never changed is that right it didn't change
00:31:07 um mrs cassette i just want to move on to another topic now and what i want to do is to ask you some questions about how you as a resident was kept informed of the
00:31:18 as a resident was kept informed of the refurbishment process in grenfell tower can we go to your first
00:31:24 first statement again it's iws50768. we look at page four please
00:31:40 need to look at sorry can we go to the preceding page i want paragraph seven sorry
00:31:53 if you could expand paragraph seven
00:31:58 please what you say there miss cassotti is and it's under the heading refurbishment i remember getting a letter some months before the refurbishment from the tmo
00:32:09 before the refurbishment from the tmo i cannot remember exactly what it said but it just gave vague details about what work was going to be done and the details of the company that was carrying the work out the work and you then named the company and you
00:32:21 and you then named the company and you go on to say that um there was another letter telling us that there was to be a different company to carry out the works called ryden now um
00:32:35 is it right that we should understand that paragraph to mean that these were letters that you received before the refurbishment actually started yes it is
00:32:46 other than those two letters did you receive any other letters about the
00:32:54 refurbishment
00:32:59 there could have been some more letters but i don't remember exactly this one i remembered clearly because it mentioned costs and that they were
00:33:10 it mentioned costs and that they were changing
00:33:11 changing the first company to another company due to costs so i remember this one clearly well um let's keep with this statement please and go
00:33:22 keep with this statement please and go now to paragraph 15 which i hope is on page four
00:33:33 what do you say there mr sotius i remember being told by the tmo at a meeting for residents that they were going to bring the building into the 21st century and modernize i cannot remember when this meeting was
00:33:45 i cannot remember when this meeting was as i went to several they told us that the change from one contractor to another was because it was cheaper to go with ryden
00:33:56 do you think that this meeting
00:34:01 was one that was because it because it refers to
00:34:04 refers to going with ryden because it's cheaper was that one that happened quite early on it did happen quite early on um but you you went to several other meetings is that right
00:34:16 meetings is that right i did yes
00:34:20 i did yes how did you learn about these meetings
00:34:25 um there were leaflets that were dropped i think there were leaflets dropped through the door
00:34:37 at any of the meetings that you attended do you remember being asked to complete a questionnaire about the
00:34:46 refurbishment no i don't
00:34:51 can you remember whether you were shown anything at the meetings
00:34:58 um there was a flat that was made into a demo flat and we were shown how the it was to do
00:35:09 and we were shown how the it was to do with boilers i remember being shown that yes what about something like window designs
00:35:23 yes i remember being shown window designs as well did you see any samples of cladding for example
00:35:32 example no i didn't
00:35:35 aside from these meetings did you attend any tmo road shows about the refurbishment no i didn't
00:35:46 you know is it right that you the job that you do involves shift work mr satan yes it is um and you said that you were able to go
00:35:59 um and you said that you were able to go to several meetings but stepping back from from it all did you feel that you had an opportunity to contribute um to the building proposals for grenfell tower before the refurbishment
00:36:11 grenfell tower before the refurbishment began
00:36:13 began no i didn't feel like that
00:36:18 and what was why why didn't you feel like that because some residents had given their opinions and it wasn't taken on
00:36:28 taken on [Music]
00:36:30 [Music] um how did you come to know that um opinions of some residents were not being taken on
00:36:38 um i had discussions with some of the residents on the floor um could you elaborate a little further about how those discussions arose
00:36:50 about how those discussions arose um they arose because people were concerned about some of the refurbishments that were going to take place
00:36:57 place so there were discussions on residents not i mean as residents not avoiding to let the people doing the
00:37:08 avoiding to let the people doing the works to come into their into our floods until they were clear about what they were going to be doing because some of the refurbishments were not made very clear like the boilers they only had
00:37:21 like the boilers they only had boilers for the bigger flats they did not arrange for boilers for the smaller flats so it was things like that that made residents a bit hesitant
00:37:33 residents a bit hesitant and that's why we started talking about it
00:37:36 it and did you learn about the concerns of other residents through going to meetings of those residents or was it just through conversations with neighbours it was conversations as well and did you
00:37:48 it was conversations as well and did you actually attend some some meetings that were residents alone
00:37:53 with residents attended few years um can you remember who organized those meetings
00:38:02 i can't remember his name
00:38:12 i'm sorry i can't remember his name but there was somebody who organized the meetings
00:38:22 well don't worry about that i'm going to ask you a question a little later on that
00:38:27 that may bring us back to that point but just one further point about the the meetings of residents um how many meetings do you remember going to yourself
00:38:38 to yourself maybe just two and
00:38:43 tell me if you can't help with this but
00:38:47 how many of those meetings how well attended were the meetings
00:38:57 they were not very well attended i think it's because of the times that the meetings were taking place some people were at work
00:39:07 when you say not very well attended can can you give us do you remember how many people were in the room when residents were meeting to discuss their concerns together
00:39:15 together the two that i went to it could have been maybe 10 people
00:39:23 could i have please another document on the
00:39:27 the screen which is tmo 00840364 page 30.
00:39:40 if we could expand paragraph 170 please
00:39:47 mr soti i want to take you back to your evidence about attending several tmo meetings
00:39:54 meetings and presumably when you went to those meetings were other residents presence at those meetings as well [Music]
00:40:08 sorry can you just say that again um i'll i'll
00:40:12 i'll i'll go through this paragraph in a moment with you but um a short while ago i was taking you through your own evidence that you attended several meetings organized by the tmo
00:40:23 the tmo and i just wanted to be clear that when you attended those meetings there were other residents present sorry did we say tmo or the residence organized by tmo do you want me to show you your statement again just that we're clear
00:40:35 statement again just that we're clear okay would that help yes it will right um
00:40:43 let's go back to iws 50768 please and page four
00:40:58 um it's paragraph 15 that we looked at a few moments ago and what you said there you you talked about attending a meeting the tmo had for residents and
00:41:09 a meeting the tmo had for residents and your second sentence was i cannot remember when this meeting was as i went to several so i think your evidence so far is that you went to meetings that the tmo organized for residents
00:41:21 organized for residents and you also went to other meetings which were just residents alone so what i want to ask you about is the meeting the tmo meetings and i just wanted to be clear with you
00:41:33 and i just wanted to be clear with you that all the meetings that you attended that were organized by the tmo there were other residents there
00:41:41 is that right there were other residents there yes thank you if we go back to the document we just had on the screen again please um if i explain mr
00:41:53 um if i explain mr soti what i'm showing you it's it's a paragraph from the statement of claire williams who was a project manager for the grenfell tower refurbishment and what she says there was whenever
00:42:05 and what she says there was whenever there were any public meetings involving grenfell tower the meetings could become difficult with disruptive conduct from a small small number of residents who took over and dominated the meeting
00:42:16 and dominated the meeting with their comments the exclusion of other residents who complained to me about this as a result of the drop-in session on 12th december 2013 we undertook a survey on how people wanted to be consulted
00:42:28 on how people wanted to be consulted which showed the majority of people did not want formal meetings this was published to residents in the january 2014 newsletter and she gives a reference there this
00:42:40 and she gives a reference there this meant that subsequent consultation was largely by drop in sessions newsletters and on a one-to-one basis whenever or wherever wherever or whenever that could be achieved now
00:42:52 achieved now we looked at your own evidence where you said you'd attended several meetings at the meetings that you attended did any did you see any residents behaving disruptively
00:43:05 there were a few residents that wanted to
00:43:08 to give their opinion and what they thought about the refurbishment how did they give their opinion
00:43:19 it wasn't as disruptive as described here i don't remember something disruptive unless there were others that ended up like that but the ones i attended didn't end up disruptive
00:43:33 attended didn't end up disruptive at the meetings that you did attend did any residents dominate those meetings to the exclusion of other residents i don't remember that now the passage i
00:43:45 i don't remember that now the passage i read out to you refers to a survey on how people wanted to be consulted were you asked do you remember being asked to complete a survey no i don't
00:43:59 [Music] what miss williams also says is that subsequent colson's consultation from 2014 was by way of dropping sessions newsletters
00:44:11 by way of dropping sessions newsletters and a one-to-one basis were do you recall being told that there were drop-in sessions i was told about the drop-in sessions yes uh did you attend any of them
00:44:26 i don't remember attending those um would there be any reason why it would have been difficult for you to attend
00:44:34 attend drop-in sessions it was the times they were arranged i was probably working and wouldn't be able to attend okay um i'm sorry to jump around between
00:44:45 um i'm sorry to jump around between documents but i want to take you back to your
00:44:48 your first statement again please iws50768 and again we're at page four
00:45:02 if we could look at paragraph 17.
00:45:09 um you said there miss cassotti um i remember that there was a resident who started a blog saying that the place was a death trap and some people brought this up during
00:45:20 and some people brought this up during some of the meetings but i cannot remember exactly what everyone said
00:45:28 when you refer there to a blog is that the blog that was run by the grenfell action group
00:45:37 yes it could be the same one and was it um was it was it the resident who set up the blog was that also the resident who organized
00:45:48 was that also the resident who organized the the meetings of residence do you remember you said you couldn't remember his name was but was it the same person i think he was the same person who organized the meetings yes
00:46:00 meetings yes um did you ever read the block blog yourself no i didn't um you say there that you know the suggestion that um
00:46:11 suggestion that um the tower was a death trap was being brought up during meetings at the meetings what was the tmo's response to that
00:46:26 the meetings where we discussed the where the discussion about the place being a death trap wasn't organized by the tmo
00:46:34 the tmo as far as i remember uh it was organized by the residents so the tmo was not there i see thank you very much for clearing that up um but um let's put the question a
00:46:45 um but um let's put the question a different way then when you heard that um what did you think about that allegation i was worried obviously
00:46:56 i was worried obviously did you take any steps in relation to your concerns
00:47:03 [Music]
00:47:06 i don't think i personally took any steps but i was just following what other residents were saying and putting across to everyone else
00:47:17 putting across to everyone else okay um i want to now go back to your phase two statement sorry can you just perhaps help us with this did you have reason to think that what people were saying was true
00:47:29 saying was true i did i i did have reason to think yeah that what people were saying was true yes and can you tell us what they were
00:47:39 it was the escape route there was only one escape route and
00:47:50 i was just also worried about the stay put policy that was my main concerns
00:47:58 concerns those were my main concerns the stay put police and the escape route yes thank you thank you mr chairman um if we go now
00:48:09 thank you mr chairman um if we go now please mrs cassette back to your phase 2 statement um and it's
00:48:14 it's iws 401775 um we need to go to page 5 and paragraph 15 please
00:48:30 if i just read a portion of that paragraph out you say there mr soti generally if i made a complaint to the tmo sometimes i did not even hear back often
00:48:41 sometimes i did not even hear back often i had to follow up a complaint i had made by email i definitely noticed when i first moved in the tmo would respond much quicker and were generally nicer and more responsive
00:48:52 responsive as time went on i felt that interactions with the tmo not just for complaints became much worse now just again if you could help us just
00:49:04 just again if you could help us just with the timeline for this um you say as time went on but was was there
00:49:10 there a year or a period or an event after which
00:49:13 which um things did become worse in terms of how the tmo responded to you uh it was when they moved the complaints office from the from grandfather tower
00:49:25 grandfather tower when i moved into grandfather tower we used to complain directly to grenfell in the complaints office at the bottom of the i mean at the basement no sorry on the ground floor there was an office where we went for
00:49:37 there was an office where we went for any complaints any repairs but when they moved the office from there we had to make phone calls to a central place and
00:49:48 to a central place and at this time it used to take longer to respond to repairs or any complaints now um taking that change the the move of the
00:50:01 taking that change the the move of the complaints office um as our starting point you've said that you um you would have to make a phone call um
00:50:12 you would have to make a phone call um and
00:50:13 and to a central office um and you also when i asked you earlier about the website you said that you were aware of the website in relation to complaints so um after the move and the office had
00:50:24 um after the move and the office had been moved to the ground floor how did you usually make a complaint to the tmo after the move it was by phone call initial for repairs sorry it was by
00:50:36 initial for repairs sorry it was by phone call and if any repairs or works were not were not completed or done then out i would make complaints on the website and
00:50:49 on the website and when you're referring to a complaint is that what you mean that your definition of a complaint is when a repair hasn't been done yeah there were delays in in repairs
00:51:01 yeah there were delays in in repairs sometimes
00:51:04 and you say in this paragraph that you had to follow up by email when you did that did that make a difference to the response you received
00:51:15 difference to the response you received sometimes it did sometimes it didn't
00:51:21 were you aware of the tmos complaints policy
00:51:28 all i was aware was if i had that complaint i could i should put it in writing on the website
00:51:41 um i want to just go to paragraph 18 of this statement so it's again on page five please
00:51:55 if we just take a quick look at paragraph 17 um you're speaking there miss cassette about the boiler that was going to be installed in your flat which you described as huge
00:52:06 described as huge um and looking as far too big to fit into the hallway but you go on in paragraph 18 to say that um
00:52:15 that um you were upset about the issue of the boiler and after it was installed it did take up a lot of room and you hated the way it looked and you continued i complained to the tmo and to ryden we don't need to go into
00:52:29 and to ryden we don't need to go into the detail about the placement of the boiler
00:52:32 boiler but what you say in this paragraph was that you asked your local councillor judith blakeman for help why did you go to councillor blakeman
00:52:43 because i wasn't getting the response i was expecting from tmo and ryden and what was the response that you were actually expecting i was hoping they would be able to fit
00:52:54 would be able to fit a smaller boiler or move the position of the boiler into the into the place where the old boiler was
00:53:07 was there a difference in the response from the tmo once council blakeman became involved um i at the time i wasn't given a thing all the feedback but counselor
00:53:21 a thing all the feedback but counselor blackman did follow it up quite extensively um but and if i put it different way um earlier we we looked at a
00:53:32 um earlier we we looked at a part of your statement where you said that um as time went on interactions with the tmo became much worse
00:53:39 worse in this situation you've got the position where you have approached the tmo yourself and ryden and then you've involved your local councillor did that improve the involvement of
00:53:51 did that improve the involvement of councillor blakeman improve the way the tmo responded to you they did not respond
00:54:02 mr chairman i i've concluded all my questions for miss kasoti oh right yes um and what i'd like i think if we could have the usual short break just to see if there are any other questions that i may be asked to put
00:54:13 questions that i may be asked to put to yes well this cassette we normally have a break when council get to the end of what he thinks is the end of his question we have a break to give him a chance to
00:54:24 we have a break to give him a chance to just check that there's nothing he's overlooked and also to give other people who are not physically present in the room the chance to suggest that there may be other points that we'd like your help on so we'll have a short break now i think
00:54:36 so we'll have a short break now i think we'll say until 5 past 11 although i make it clear that if anyone thinks more time is required you can let us know but we'll as i say we'll come back at five past 11 and at
00:54:48 we'll come back at five past 11 and at that point we'll see if there are any more
00:54:50 more questions we'd like your help on all right and i say this to you because i've said it to everybody else who's come to give evidence please don't talk about your evidence to anyone while you're out of the room okay all
00:55:01 while you're out of the room okay all right thank you very much would you like to give the our ship please
00:55:14 [Music]
00:55:22 right well i say five past eleven if if more time is required you can let me know
00:55:26 know thank you mr
01:09:57 thank you would you ask mr cassette to come back in please
01:10:22 all right mr kassetti well when us we'll see if there any more questions for you yes there are very few uh questions for miss cassettes mr city can i take you back to your first uh statement which is
01:10:36 to your first uh statement which is uh iws50768. go to page five and paragraph 21.
01:10:46 this was the paragraph that we looked at about the the notice pinned up a noticeboard by the lifts about the staple policy do you remember yes i did um can you just help us with this where was that
01:10:57 this where was that notice board um then the notice point was to your right at the lifts and on which floor
01:11:10 at the lifts and on which floor the ground floor did you see a notice at all on on
01:11:15 all on on your uh floor there was no notice board on the floor so there was no notice um i just want to ask if you can help with what the notice looked like and i
01:11:27 with what the notice looked like and i want to show you uh an image it's inq six zeros nine three
01:11:35 i think five zeros are six six zeroes nine three nine q six nine q6093
01:11:43 was this anything like the notice that you saw on that notice board
01:11:49 it looks familiar do you think it's likely to that the notice you remember seeing is likely to have looked like that one
01:12:02 it is yes it does look like that one i'm moving on to the next topic do you remember that i asked you some questions about link magazine yes you did um and i think your evidence
01:12:15 yes you did um and i think your evidence was that you it was something that you did receive and you would look at when you did when you did get it yes sometimes i did look at it yes
01:12:26 do you remember seeing in link magazine information inviting residents to become members of the tmo no i don't um
01:12:40 no i don't um the last matter i want to
01:12:44 cover with you please miss cassotti is
01:12:48 if i were to ask you what a fire control switch is
01:12:53 switch is is that something you'd be able to answer
01:12:57 no i wouldn't um
01:13:02 there was a um switch on the wall at the top of the lift doors on the ground floor do you ever remember seeing a switch
01:13:16 there
01:13:20 um mr chairman those are all the questions that i um need to put to miss cassotti so all that remains for me to do is to thank her once again for coming to give evidence today yeah
01:13:32 give evidence today yeah well mr seti on behalf of the panel and myself
01:13:36 myself i'd like to thank you very much indeed for coming to give your evidence i hope it hasn't disrupted your arrangements too much but it's been very helpful to hear from you and good to see you so thank you very much indeed thank you and now you're
01:13:47 much indeed thank you and now you're free to go thank you very much thank you
01:14:12 well mr rabbit i know we've got another witness um coming this morning but i don't think he's yet here just yet is that right um we're due to start him in a little while that's mr collude
01:14:24 while that's mr collude um miss sivakumaran will be asking questions of him but um i wondered mr chairman if i could use the time that we have just to begin the uh reading in of some
01:14:35 just to begin the uh reading in of some of the phase two statements from bsrs yes well by all means can i just raise one question we are going to have to have a
01:14:42 have a short break for sanitizing the witness box
01:14:46 box so we i can take it now and then go straight into the witness when you've done the reading or we can have a break after you've done the reading before we take the witness i don't know what you'd find better um
01:14:58 what you'd find better um if if i could just perhaps read for about 15 or 20 minutes and then we'll we'll take the break that's perfectly right yes thank you thank you um
01:15:07 mr chairman members of the panel as i indicated a moment ago what we're going to do now is to begin uh reading from phase two statements uh provided by uh bereaved survivors and
01:15:18 uh provided by uh bereaved survivors and residents
01:15:20 residents the inquiry has received 225 phase 2 statements from the bsr community
01:15:27 community while we will not be reading from every statement
01:15:31 statement what the inquiry would like to do right now is to record our thanks to all of those who have provided their statements and the inquiry team has reviewed every statement
01:15:40 statement it's informed our work on module 3 and continues to do so what we are going to do is to read extracts from some statements and those extracts go to
01:15:51 some statements and those extracts go to the following module three issues a whether residents with particular vulnerabilities that affected their ability to evacuate were advised they could request a
01:16:02 were advised they could request a personal emergency evacuation plan or about evacuation planning generally b what fire safety advice residents received from the tmo
01:16:13 received from the tmo and see how residence complaints and repair requests were raised with the tmo on this point we will also refer to evidence about repair requests for self-closing devices
01:16:24 repair requests for self-closing devices on the front doors
01:16:27 while we are reading only relevant extracts
01:16:31 extracts and only from a selection of statements it is important to say from the outset that all the statements that we will be putting into evidence which will be either by way of reading them in or by list
01:16:43 them in or by list will all be published on the inquiries website and will form part of the inquiry record in their entirety what i will do mr chairman
01:16:52 chairman is just begin by reading from statements of those residents who speak about having
01:16:56 having vulnerabilities that affected their ability to evacuate in an emergency um i want to start firstly with evidence from those who lived in um the the new
01:17:08 from those who lived in um the the new flats
01:17:08 flats as the panel will be aware nine new flats were built in grenfell tower as part of the refurbishment and as you heard in module 1 some of these flats were expressly
01:17:20 some of these flats were expressly adapted for disabled residents all of the residents placed in those flats moved into the tower in 2016 and at least one resident in each of these flats had some degree of mobility
01:17:31 these flats had some degree of mobility impairment one of the residents was mariko toyoshima lewis and you'll remember mr chairman that mrs toyoshima lewis gave evidence
01:17:42 toyoshima lewis gave evidence oral evidence during the course of the phase one hearings uh for the benefit of mrs stefani mr akbar uh mrs tayashima lewis told you that she lived in flat nine on the third floor of grenfell tower
01:17:54 on the third floor of grenfell tower with her three children and had lived there since july 2016. she is a wheelchair user but her evidence was that the flat was not suitable for her needs
01:18:05 suitable for her needs because she couldn't get her electric scooter into the flat and she encountered difficulties when navigating through it if i could please have on the screen iws
01:18:17 401725
01:18:24 this is the phase two um statement of mrs toyoshima lewis if we go please to page 76
01:18:34 we see there that it's um dated the 28th of february 2020 and signed with a statement of truth and so i ask at this stage that it be
01:18:45 so i ask at this stage that it be admitted into the record if i can start in terms of my reading at page 16
01:18:51 page 16 and paragraph 40.
01:19:00 mrs toyoshima lewis in this paragraph describes
01:19:03 describes experiencing problems in respect of the lifts on numerous occasions she was unable to leave the building if the lifts were not working and as recorded in paragraph 42 on the
01:19:14 and as recorded in paragraph 42 on the next page
01:19:20 she says there that she reported uh her problems to the latimer office every time the lift was not working if we go through please to page 20
01:19:33 if we go through please to page 20 and paragraph 59
01:19:40 here mrs lewis mrs toyota says and i quote that she did have concerns about what would happen in the event of the fire
01:19:48 the fire in terms of me being able to escape and the additional problems due to my disability end quote if we could go to the next page please
01:20:01 and paragraph 63
01:20:07 what miss toyota says at roman numeral 2 is one of the issues i did raise
01:20:14 did raise was regarding what would happen in terms of me escaping if there was a fire i asked rob and the neighborhood officer what would happen if there was a fire
01:20:23 fire in relation to me escaping i also asked the people working in the latimer road office
01:20:28 office what would happen if there was a fire as i'm in a wheelchair if we move forward in the statement of paragraph 67
01:20:39 again at um roman numeral two what mrs toyman
01:20:43 toyman toishima lewis explains there and i quote the responses i received in relation to what would happen if there was a fire and i am in a wheelchair was from rob and the neighborhood office was verbal
01:20:54 and the neighborhood office was verbal where i was told that i'm on the list for disabled people in the tower it's useful mr chairman just at this point just to go forward into the statement to page page 29 please and paragraph 78
01:21:13 what mrs toyoshima lewis says there is quote i asked the estate inspector of the tower about how i would escape in the event of a fire
01:21:22 fire i cannot remember his name he came and talked to me for three hours explaining about how the building was built and designed to contain a fire he told me that there were very thick concrete 80 centimeter around
01:21:35 concrete 80 centimeter around the flat ensuring that the flat was completely safe in the event of a fire he told me that because of this protection i did not have to leave the flat in the event of a fire as it was safe to remain in the flat
01:21:46 safe to remain in the flat if the fire had not started in my flat um just taking the panel back to paragraph
01:21:54 paragraph 76 please
01:22:01 i think that's on page 24.
01:22:19 just reading the first part of this paragraph it begins i was limited in terms of fire exits because i'm in a wheelchair so i cannot run down
01:22:26 run down the fire exit the only way i felt i could go
01:22:30 could go get downstairs and escape if i was on my own was to go down on my bottom even on the night of the fire with the firefighters in attendance there clearly was no plan or specific route for a disabled person such as me
01:22:42 disabled person such as me the best way to explain the escape route is to describe the events of the night of the fire and how i escaped the fire and mr says toyoshima lewis goes on there to refer to
01:22:53 there to refer to hey her phase one statement but i'll stop reading there but you will recall mr chairman that on the night of the fire firefighters did indeed carry mrs toyota lewis out of the tower um
01:23:07 out of the tower um final point to make in relation to her evidence is that her former husband david lewis has also provided a phase two statement we don't need to bring it up but for the record its reference is
01:23:18 record its reference is iws401
01:23:21 iws401 and i ask at this stage that it be admitted to the record i'd like now to turn police the phase two statement of mrs mabube vatan that's at iws
01:23:39 statement consists of eight pages and if we go to page eight
01:23:45 we can see that it's there signed dated the 24th of february 2020 and there's a statement of truth i ask that it be admitted into the record
01:23:56 record as chairman members of the panel um mrs jamal vatan lived in flat 10 on the third floor of grenfell tower with her two adult children sahar and sajad
01:24:05 sajad they'd moved there in august 2016. mrs jamal vatan is disabled and her daughter saha was her carer if i take you please to page two
01:24:17 page two and paragraph five
01:24:23 what mrs jamal watan says at that paragraph is i reported the problems about the lift to the tmo two or three times there was a problem with the lift every
01:24:34 there was a problem with the lift every month
01:24:35 month one or other of them would always break down it was a big problem for me due to my disability which causes me mobility problems it would take me ages waiting for the lift and getting down i have a problem with my knees and my
01:24:47 i have a problem with my knees and my shoulder and i walk with a stick i'm not able to use the stairs but rely on the lift i note that my complaints about the lifts breaking down were not recorded in the copy of the rbkc tmo housing file
01:24:59 the copy of the rbkc tmo housing file which was obtained by my legal representatives despite multiple requests
01:25:03 requests for the relevant information if we could move forward in the statement please to paragraph
01:25:09 paragraph 12 which is on page three
01:25:15 and this is in relation to fire safety information um and mrs vartan says i refer to
01:25:27 and mrs vartan says i refer to paragraphs 10 and 11 of my may 2018 statement
01:25:31 statement that's her phase one statement which states
01:25:35 states that i was never given any instruction or advice about fire safety in the building in person or in writing and i did not see anything either in the communal areas or inside my flat
01:25:45 my flat regarding what residents should do in the event of a fire if we could go to the next page please in paragraph 15.
01:25:59 what mrs jamal vartan says at that paragraph
01:26:03 paragraph is i have i had never been made aware of any fire safety policy or of the stay put policy finally if we go please to paragraph 18
01:26:14 finally if we go please to paragraph 18 which is on the same page
01:26:18 and this is under the heading fire safety complaints mrs jamal vatan says as far as i was aware
01:26:26 aware there were no special provisions that we we i think must be a type of were made that we were made aware of relating to people with special needs including mobility issues or language issues
01:26:37 issues i escaped down the stairs on the 14th of june by sitting on my bottom and going down the stairs that way as i was not able to walk all the way down the stairs i just had to bump my way down
01:26:52 if i could conclude mrs jamal vatin's evidence by explaining that her daughter sahar has also provided a phase two statement to the inquiry which speaks to
01:27:03 inquiry which speaks to same issues the reference for that again we do not need to bring it up is iws 401704 and i ask at this stage that saha jamal
01:27:15 and i ask at this stage that saha jamal watan's
01:27:15 watan's statement be admitted into the record um
01:27:21 mr chairman i've note the time i think that's probably a good point to stop yes so we can then obviously get the um
01:27:28 the um witness seat ready for the next witness yes well it shouldn't take too long to do that i hope and and then um the next witness who i think is just collude mr collude yes well
01:27:41 just collude mr collude yes well um if he's here and ready to give his evidence
01:27:45 evidence we'll get him in as soon as we can shall we thank you mr chairman all right thank you well we'll arrive just for a moment while the
01:27:50 while the witness box is clean for the next witness thank you
01:42:27 yes receiver agreement now we've got another witness yes um if we can call mr youssef khalood good please yes is mr collude there
01:42:40 please
01:42:47 good morning mr clude i understand you're going to take the oath have you got a copy of the book there yeah quran yeah okay could you repeat the words after the usher then please sir no problem i swear by allah i swear
01:43:00 sir no problem i swear by allah i swear by allah
01:43:01 by allah that the evidence i shall give does evidence shall be given shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth whole truth and nothing but the tree and nothing that the truth but the truth good thank you very much
01:43:12 but the truth good thank you very much thank you would you like to sit down and make yourself comfortable thank you um we ought to be able to provide you with some water no fascinating thank you of course you are yes well forgive me for
01:43:24 are yes well forgive me for no problem sir all right well off we go there mr steven gubern good morning um good morning mr can i begin by thank you for coming to give your evidence today
01:43:36 your evidence today and also for assisting the inquiry with our investigations it is really very much appreciated thank you now if you have any difficulty understanding a question or you want me to repeat any questions
01:43:47 or you want me to repeat any questions or rephrase it please do ask i would i'll also ask you um i think you're very softly spoken but if you can keep your voice up and speak slowly for the transcriber because
01:43:58 speak slowly for the transcriber because they're going to be recording what you say and if you can keep your um your answers clear sure now i just want to start with some preliminary matters you've provided two witness statements to the inquiry
01:44:10 witness statements to the inquiry i want to take you to those they're going to appear on the screen that's before you yeah turning to the first statement and that's reference 50473 this is a statement that you
01:44:23 50473 this is a statement that you provided to the inquiry in phase one and has already been put into the inquiry record and published on our website you can see that before you uh to be honest i need my glasses i'll
01:44:35 uh to be honest i need my glasses i'll leave them in my car but that's fine i can
01:44:37 can well now we might ask you to look at some documents so would you like would you like us to get your glasses or would you like to ask yourself uh that's fine um well i think
01:44:50 yes right i i think it would be better if you did get your glasses thank you sorry about that not a problem we'll sit here and wait for you but no good urgency the usher will come with you
01:45:33 thank you very much all right now you can
01:45:37 can you can probably read the document i have the other problem i have to take mine off to read the documents but yeah right okay so you can see your phase one witness statement before you at the moment is that right
01:45:48 at the moment is that right yeah okay i'd now like to take you to your phase two statement and this is reference iws401754
01:45:59 and this is reference iws401754 can you see that before you yeah and then if we go to the last page page 12
01:46:06 it appears to be signed is that your signature yes and it's dated the 25th of february 2020. yeah have you read both statements recently sir oh i think i read one
01:46:20 sir oh i think i read one it's not both okay which statement have you read the first one the first one yeah okay and from your recollection of the first and the second one can you confirm if their contents are true to the best of your
01:46:32 contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes now everyone here has had a chance to read your statements and we've considered them carefully i will be asking you some additional questions that arise from them
01:46:43 questions that arise from them yeah okay firstly you moved into grenfell tower in june 2006 is that correct
01:46:49 correct yes you lived in flat 85 on floor 11 yes and you live there with your wife and children is that right yes okay and you're a tenant of rbkc
01:47:00 yes okay and you're a tenant of rbkc yes now i want to now ask you about the relationship between rbkc and tmo at least your understanding of it uh my relationship is was to be honest
01:47:11 uh my relationship is was to be honest it was fine i never had any arguments with them and i never have any problem with them
01:47:20 well the connection is going to be between me and them the payments are never been behind for the payment and for repair uh most of the job i used to do about myself i never called
01:47:33 to do about myself i never called and i didn't call them very often just if some big issue like door broken or something just one
01:47:40 one one time with my experience i have a sink blocked that is one of the time it was an argument but just was misunderstood uh i called them for one
01:47:51 misunderstood uh i called them for one of the things and he was blocked and he try is that now mr clutch i'm just going to pause you there we will take you through um some aspects of your statement sure um
01:48:02 um but in respect you've been referring to the different organizations now to break them down
01:48:07 them down there's the tmo and rbkc starting firstly with the tmo were you aware that the tmo is a separate organization from rbkc yeah okay and what was your
01:48:19 yeah okay and what was your understanding of the responsibilities of the tmo
01:48:22 the tmo the term of responsibility is the repair of
01:48:25 of the the any repair on the floor now you mentioned that you reported several repairs does that mean you'd report them first to the tmo yes okay and what did you understand
01:48:38 yes okay and what did you understand were the responsibilities of rbkc in respect of grenfell tower i don't know to bonus okay um
01:48:49 i don't know to bonus okay um well to go back to the tmo um you understand that they were managing the repairs did you know that tmo is managed by a board no no no okay and um did you know that
01:49:01 no no no okay and um did you know that you could be a member of the tmo no so you weren't aware that there was an annual general meeting for the tmo no no okay um were you aware of any residence
01:49:15 okay um were you aware of any residence associations for grenfell tower
01:49:20 no no so the name grenfell compact does that mean anything to you
01:49:27 of course greenfield i used to live in that town
01:49:32 so you are aware of grandfather company okay and what about grenfell action
01:49:40 group i know this is a termini
01:49:50 i'm not sure about it to be honest but i know there's
01:49:55 is uh after the fire is too many uh groups is is coming up with the is supporting us helping us and
01:50:08 okay um so the name grenfell action group do you firstly do you know that nate yes and were you aware of it after the fire or before the fire after the fight after the family okay
01:50:19 after the fight after the family okay and
01:50:20 and the final group that i want to ask you about is lancaster west residents association were you aware of this
01:50:27 this residents association no to be honest no okay
01:50:31 okay now i'm going to come back to ask you more about the residents associations in grenfell tower but i just now want to take you
01:50:37 take you to what you've said about fire safety advice and ask you a few further questions about that sure okay so now if we look at your first statement which is iws 50473
01:50:48 which is iws 50473 and if we go to page two of that statement
01:50:53 statement starting at paragraph five you said we were never given any advice on what to do in the case of a fire when we signed our tenancy agreement and moved into grenfell tower we were not given a pack of papers or
01:51:04 we were not given a pack of papers or any leaflets on this subject we were also given no verbal advice on what to do in the event of a fire i did not witness any fire alarms a fire alarm tests or fire evacuation drills from the tmo
01:51:15 from the tmo the council or the fire brigade while i lived in grenfell tower i then want to move forward to page 3 and pick up your statement again at paragraph 10. you return to the subject of fire
01:51:27 10. you return to the subject of fire safety advice and at paragraph 10 you've explained no one has ever explained to me what to do if there is a fire we were never given any advice on what to do in the case of a fire when we
01:51:38 to do in the case of a fire when we signed our tenancy agreement and moved into grenfell tower we were not given a pack of papers or any leaflets on the subject we were also given no verbal advice on this i had never seen any notices in the
01:51:50 this i had never seen any notices in the hallway as to what to do in the case of a fire
01:51:53 a fire i had never seen any such signs and any flaws
01:51:56 flaws and then you continue at paragraph 11 before 14 june 2017 my belief was that i would have to go out of the building for fire safety of me and my family in the event of a fire even if someone had told me to stay in
01:52:09 even if someone had told me to stay in stay input i would leave now i just want to take you through what you've said there because you made it very clear that when you first moved in
01:52:17 in you weren't given any documents with fire safety advice yeah yes the inquiry has been um provided with some documents that i would like to show you and i just would like to ask if you have seen those before sure
01:52:28 before sure the first one i'm going to take you to is a copy of the tenancy handbook this references iws 401762
01:52:39 this references iws 401762 page 2.
01:52:44 page 2. and if this can be turned around we can see that's a handbook called the tenancy handbook in blue it's been provided to the inquiry by another resident of grenfell tower mr mohammed rasool and he's explained in
01:52:56 mr mohammed rasool and he's explained in his statement that he was provided this handbook in and around 2004.
01:53:01 2004. so my first question is um have you seen a copy of this handbook before do you recognize no no so you've never received a copy even after moving into grand fortuna
01:53:14 i'd like to then take you to another document
01:53:18 document this is cst406750
01:53:29 now this is a leaflet titled home fire safety guide for the purposes of for purpose-built flats and maisonets and we can see at the bottom that it's produced by the lfb can you see that yeah um have you ever
01:53:42 can you see that yeah um have you ever seen a fly like this before no no and so you wouldn't have seen this fly around grenfell tower no it's not been posted in your flat no i can't remember to see something
01:53:54 no i can't remember to see something like that before okay thank you i'd now like to take you to another document um take you through quite a few of the different documents now no problem uh this is tm 0 0 0 eight
01:54:07 uh this is tm 0 0 0 eight seven three five four nine
01:54:14 now this is a copy of the link magazine can i first ask did you receive copies of link magazines no very little bonus no no
01:54:26 no very little bonus no no were you aware that they existed
01:54:30 yes how were you aware that they existed the link magazines what
01:54:39 there's not much to be honest but i just i i didn't even receive anything like that any magazines of
01:54:46 of a home or something okay so you never got them posted to your address no to my others okay but you knew that the tmo produced a magazine called link uh sometime when
01:54:57 a magazine called link uh sometime when i go to the office he's in in the entire office downstairs to complain to report any repair or something
01:55:06 something i can see something in the board you've got bored in the office i can see some the time when i'm waiting to see someone that's the time i can see some leaflets in the wall on the wall but i never receive anything on my on my floor okay and was that just was
01:55:19 on my floor okay and was that just was that a magazine posted to the board or left it it's not magazines and can you describe what that leaflet said just some like a pictures like some
01:55:32 just some like a pictures like some pictures you show me now to be honest so pictures like this yeah yeah okay
01:55:41 and did you see any copies of the magazines in the tml offices i can't remember no okay so is it fair to say that you never read the link magazines
01:55:58 now the tmo also had a website did you know that the tmo had a website no
01:56:07 so can we take it then that nobody ever told you to visit the tmo website no and you weren't aware that there was fire safety advice on the website no
01:56:19 no this one last type of newsletter that i'd like to show you this is the grenfell tower regeneration newsletters and if we can pull up a rt402606
01:56:37 we can see at the top it says kensington and chelsea tmo and ryden can you see that yeah and then the title of the newsletters grenfell tower regeneration newsletter and this particular copy is
01:56:48 newsletter and this particular copy is dated july 2014. have you ever seen this type of newsletter before no no no and you never received copies of these newsletters no that's funny
01:57:02 were you aware that the tmo and ryden were distributing newsletters like this to residents
01:57:11 you should but i didn't receive anything to be honest like that before okay but so you don't know if your neighbours were receiving them
01:57:36 now returning to your statement with seen at iws four zeros and five zero four seven three
01:57:50 page so we've already read from paragraph 10 and 11 and you'd said that you'd never seen any notices in the hallway and you hadn't seen any signs in the um on the floors i'd just like to show you an image now
01:58:01 i'd just like to show you an image now this is inq um six zeros nine three
01:58:12 this is a fire action notice um that was posted next to the lifts in grenfell tower did you never notice this this image no no
01:58:24 so to confirm before june 2017 you were not aware of the stay put policy no to be honest now you've also explained in your statement that even if you were aware of it you still
01:58:36 even if you were aware of it you still would have left the building yes why would you not follow the stay put policy
01:58:43 which policy someone else uh sorry which policy i have to follow up um so returning if i can show your statement again it's iws 50473 yeah
01:58:55 50473 yeah and paragraph 11 you said before june 2017 my belief was that i would have to go out of the building for safety of me and my family in the vent of a fire even if someone had told me to stay input i
01:59:07 if someone had told me to stay input i would leave so when you say this are you aware that there is a stay put policy yeah yes yeah and you're saying that before june 2017 you weren't aware of
01:59:18 before june 2017 you weren't aware of that stay put policy yes yes and what you've what i understand from your statement is you said
01:59:24 said even if you were aware of the stay put policy before june 2017 you still would not have stayed in your flat you would have left your flat an emergency is that right yes
01:59:36 emergency is that right yes and my question is why would you have still left your flat
01:59:42 well i still left my flood and not followed the stay put advice
01:59:48 because this i i can't stay in the fire that is if something emerges i have to go out i have to go out i cannot stay
02:00:04 can i just see if you can help with this if you
02:00:07 if you discovered in some way that there was a fire in a flat on a different floor from yours would you think it necessary to leave or would you stay in your own flat yeah i
02:00:19 would you stay in your own flat yeah i have to leave and i think what you're being asked is why would you leave in those circumstances
02:00:29 why
02:00:32 sorry can you repeat questions why would you think it necessary to leave if there was a fire in a in a flat on a different floor this is for my safety and that's what
02:00:43 this is for my safety and that's what i've been learning that's what i've been uh as in my statement is where i said i'm working the hotel we doing test fire every six months that's what we're
02:00:55 fire every six months that's what we're learning if any fire you see fire we heard the alarm drilling around constantly he didn't stop you should leave it doesn't matter if you see fire or you didn't seal fire just you need to leave
02:01:06 didn't seal fire just you need to leave if you the alarm come off for a long time if the test is going to be stopped if not if it's constantly for less than more than a minute or two automatically you have to leave you
02:01:17 automatically you have to leave you don't need to ask questions you don't need to take anything with you and that was something you'd learned at work yeah that's why i did our work yeah well thank you i understand um i'm now going to turn to a new subject
02:01:29 i'm now going to turn to a new subject and that's about your door now returning to your first um statement if we move down to page four
02:01:38 at paragraph 16 you've explained about your front door you said our front door has been there since 2014.
02:01:46 2014. the tmo had replaced everyone's doors in 2014
02:01:50 2014 except if they were private owners i think it was a wooden door before and they replaced it with a new wooden door the old door was painted green and the new door was painted black
02:02:01 new door was painted black the door only has one lock it does not lock automatically if you shut it behind you
02:02:06 you on our front door there was nothing in the frame inside the door to pressure it to close
02:02:10 to close if you left the door open there used to be a door closer on the frame inside the old door but it had been broken for a long time
02:02:17 long time it was making noise when you used the door when they came to put in new doors during the renovation of the building we just told the builders to take off the closer they did not replace it
02:02:28 the closer they did not replace it now first i'm just going to take you to another document this is mass m a s sorry 703 now this is a spreadsheet
02:02:39 703 now this is a spreadsheet that the inquiry has been provided showing all the doors that were replaced um the tenant stores in grenfell tower and if we look at row 46 it's
02:02:50 and if we look at row 46 it's not very easy to read but what it does say is that your door for your flat was replaced in may 20th of may 2011.
02:03:02 in may 20th of may 2011. now in your statement you've said that your door was replaced in 2014. is it possible that your door was replaced in 2011 and not 2014.
02:03:15 replaced in 2011 and not 2014. all the building doors is ch has been changed in one time to be honest the dates i can remember to be honest but if he's been saying 2011 could be but i'm not sure but like i said all been to
02:03:28 i'm not sure but like i said all been to tour has been changing one time it was like a project for them to be changed or the built-in doors and he starts floor by floor door by door whatever is available in his do it but the date maybe i said for 2014 but if he's been done in 2011.
02:03:43 for 2014 but if he's been done in 2011. this is called the rocker but okay so we can confirm it wasn't changed again after 2000. no it's only one time change okay and how long after the door was installed did that self-closing device break
02:03:59 maybe a year maybe six months i'm not sure about it exactly but
02:04:06 so it was quite soon after the door was installed yes and did you report that the self-closing device was broken to the tmo yes how did you report it we called them
02:04:17 yes how did you report it we called them we just have the number we called them
02:04:21 and what did they re what did they do in response
02:04:24 response well he took me time to come to to see it and you can understand them he bring another he bring another part but it doesn't work as well let's just tell him to take
02:04:35 work as well let's just tell him to take it off it's not going to work and he take it off at least we can be easy to close the door and open it and close it because he was making some noise and he's difficult to close it as well okay so did they try to replace the
02:04:48 okay so did they try to replace the self-closing device yes they did try yeah he did what he didn't
02:04:53 didn't how many times did they come to repair your door once once
02:05:01 just returning to your statement if we can look again at iws
02:05:07 iws um um
02:05:12 you've said on the last line we just told the builders to take off the closer they did not replace it when you say you told the builders to take off the closer are you is that your reference to tmo repairman
02:05:24 is that your reference to tmo repairman yes
02:05:25 yes okay
02:05:30 because that time i believe he wasn't riding in the building he was only there he's been dealing with the tours
02:05:37 tours he was i think i believe he was different company he wasn't installed the doors
02:05:41 the doors it's not tml but after when the company is finished this time will take over
02:05:48 take over that's that's how it is because i remember the day when the the engineer coming to fix the door is not from tml it was just one person he come in take the door off frame off from place
02:06:00 the door off frame off from place everything and go but the time time he was the doctor is not working he's not same person but he's with the team oh badge and logo as well
02:06:11 as well okay so you knew he was working for the tmr yeah because you've got uniforms
02:06:18 was he someone you recognized from the tmo
02:06:21 tmo not a religious bonus it's too many of them every time someone coming so it wasn't a handyman or a services assistant
02:06:30 assistant no sure
02:06:38 did the tmo make you aware at any point during your tenancy at grenfell tower about the importance of self-closing devices for your flat front door no
02:06:50 and did anyone ever ask you for access to check
02:06:53 to check your flat front door no and no one inspected the self-closing device afterwards no
02:07:02 okay now i want to move on to another topic and that's in respect to the refurbishment process now if we can look at your phase two statement it's iws 1754
02:07:15 and if we go to page three
02:07:20 now paragraph 12 you said i stated at paragraph 24 of my phase one statement there was a refurbishment of the town 2015.
02:07:29 2015. i do not recall there being a consultation with residents about the refurbishment i think we just received letters from the tmo informing us it was going to happen
02:07:39 happen how many letters did you receive from the tmo
02:07:44 it could be one i'm not sure but mostly sometimes when you've got some some work for some projects he sends some some letters especially if you're going to be some
02:07:55 you're going to be some lyft broken or something is inside is inform you with the timing because he's going to come to your house he'll inform you with the time in a date so you said it could be one or it could
02:08:07 so you said it could be one or it could be some does that mean that it was more than one letter yeah different time difference yeah if you've got more more refer more work is going to do every time they send you something special something is in your house
02:08:18 special something is in your house in your flaw okay did any of the letters invite a response from you no and i want to show you a document which is a tmo summary of
02:08:30 a document which is a tmo summary of their consultations it's sea one two three four five four zero six zero zero three if we can go to page fourteen
02:08:47 now this is a consultation summary you might not have seen this before but on in this table in the second column the first column has the dates and the second column shows the types of consultation that the tmo said that they
02:08:59 consultation that the tmo said that they used
02:09:00 used it continues on to the next page but what we can see on this page is it says that there were road shows in 2012 estate meetings even in consultation meetings newsletters these are the consultations
02:09:12 newsletters these are the consultations that took place in 2012 and if we go on to the next page we can see again that they're referring in july to evening consultation meetings and daytime drop-in sessions and newsletters
02:09:24 newsletters and those were held in july and august
02:09:29 now were you aware that there were road shows ongoing in 2012 about the refurbishment yeah were you aware that there were estate meetings no to be honest and evening consultation
02:09:41 no to be honest and evening consultation meetings
02:09:52 so can i take it that you were not asked to complete a questionnaire about what you would like to happen in the refurbishment
02:10:02 again i'll put that a different way were you asked to complete any questionnaires um about the refurbishment
02:10:11 from them from the tmo did the tmo send you a questionnaire no no
02:10:22 and before the work and the refurbishment began did you feel that you had any opportunities to contribute to the building proposals
02:10:34 now i just want to show you another document this is an email and the reference is tmo00846 one two four
02:10:50 now this is an email address to mr collins and mr defan it's not one that you're copied into so you might not have seen it before but mr collins and mr definitely asked for a meeting with the residents and claire
02:11:01 meeting with the residents and claire williams had responded and she set out communication channels or consultation that the tmo had carried out with residents
02:11:09 residents in 2013 and 2014 so this is the period after the document that i've just shown you okay this is before this is before the uh the meeting before the refurbishment
02:11:20 the refurbishment this is during the refurbishment it starts so it's 2013 um into 2014 and the email itself is sent in april 2015. no sorry never never see that emails yes of course no i understand you haven't
02:11:32 of course no i understand you haven't seen the email i want to ask you about the content of the email no i don't think so happen okay um what i understand that you haven't seen the email what i want to ask you about is some of the
02:11:43 is some of the types of consultation that claire williams said that she put um that were arranged for residents
02:11:51 residents to be honest during the refurbishment we've been asking tml to come to our meeting we create a residence meeting sometime and never come to sit down with us
02:12:03 and never come to sit down with us never we ask them during the refurbishment to discuss with us at least what's going to be inside our floor
02:12:10 floor what he's going to do but never come and then when
02:12:14 then when anthony one contacts the councillor and at the time he forced them to come to sit down with us and in the meeting that's the time i saw tmr
02:12:25 in the meeting that's the time i saw tmr call us to sit down to have a meeting to discuss
02:12:28 discuss what he's going to do inside our floor but
02:12:31 but whatever he's doing outdoor outdoor would never talk to us at all but in our inside our door that's the time we told them to come but never come to to
02:12:42 told them to come but never come to to sit down with us to be honest okay i'm i'm going to ask you about those residence meetings that you had before
02:12:48 before we come to them were you aware that there were any drop-in sessions for residents with the tmo no to be honest never come too much to ask to talk to us okay and did you know that there was a
02:12:59 okay and did you know that there was a respite flat that you could visit yes yes did you ever visit that flower yes a couple of times okay and did you have a chance to talk to the tmo on those visits yes we talked to them but
02:13:14 yeah we talked to them you show us the the flat house going to be but we told them about the our concern was about the boiler that's the main things we've been talking about but never come to us to sit down to to
02:13:27 but never come to us to sit down to to change the location of the boiler that's the most of the residents that's the issue was
02:13:33 issue was talking about it okay well if i can take you then to your statement where you've spoken about the residence meetings um it's iws401754
02:13:44 it's iws401754 page three
02:13:48 and then at paragraph 17 you've spoken about these regular meetings that you've just mentioned and you've said that we would meet once or twice a month when did you start attending the residence meetings
02:14:00 attending the residence meetings during the refurbishment do you remember roughly what year it was so
02:14:07 not really but during the refurbishment refurbishment it was in 2014 that's the time we started doing the meeting
02:14:14 meeting that's the uh the reason why we're doing that meeting just because the refurbishment we wasn't happy about was the term or right and he's doing well right then he just he's doing what he's been told to do to
02:14:26 he's doing what he's been told to do to bonus but the team and what he's been doing to our flower we wasn't happy all the residents or most of us we wasn't happy that's why we started sit down doing a meeting and to talk to them
02:14:37 meeting and to talk to them to try to change something okay and were those discussions only about the heating interface unit or the boiler well that's the the big subject to be
02:14:48 well that's the the big subject to be honest
02:14:51 plus the pipe gas pipe plus the you know whatever is inside our floor
02:14:59 okay so can you um just summarize for us what your concerns were about the work that the tmo is doing
02:15:07 uh what were your main concerns about the refurbishment uh windows but the windows was no problem but
02:15:14 but the big problem was the boiler he was in the corridor and we wasn't happy about about it for the safety for the the location
02:15:23 location of it it wasn't it wasn't that good to be honest that's why we wasn't happy to to put it in there in the corridor and you've also mentioned the gas pipes as well
02:15:32 well yeah because pipey was offside the doors as well and coming in it's quite a bit of risk for it to be outside stacked up did you have any other fire safety concerns during the refurbishment
02:15:44 concerns during the refurbishment no um
02:15:50 no um now in your statement um i believe if we turn over to page four paragraph 19.
02:16:05 four paragraph 19. um it says there we were calling on the tmo to come and sit down with us at our meetings and discuss us concerns but no one attended four months it was only when we called our local mp to attend
02:16:16 when we called our local mp to attend one of the meetings that the team has started to respond to our concerns um and this is as you said they only met with you after the tmo admit um after the your mp meet with you
02:16:48 and did you feel that the tmo responded to any of the concerns that you raised in those meetings yes you do feel that they responded to them he's been forced to be to do it to be honest
02:16:59 why did you feel that they were forced well because he didn't want to listen to us before
02:17:05 us before if he do if if if he's not being forced he should listen to us when we told them the boiler shouldn't be on the corridor should be on the kitchen whereas the the previous place was the
02:17:16 whereas the the previous place was the other one but i don't want to listen and he done it for like
02:17:21 70 percent of the plot of the building and to look at the 25 for 30 percent left we
02:17:27 left we we told them we're not going to anyone to come to our place our flat to do it and that's the time we does the time will force them as well we because we get
02:17:38 because we get when we don't let the the right and to come to do at work that i mean is going to be some delay of the project and that's the time is where we call the mp to come to to sit down with us and to talk to us
02:17:49 to sit down with us and to talk to us and you can talk to them and and the mp that's why she told them to be honest i was in the meeting and she it was like a two questions so three questions for them he told them there are guys he called us
02:18:00 he told them there are guys he called us to come to sit down to talk house about the boiler can you change it from that place to that place he said uh he's and he said yes he can be said
02:18:09 be said i'll just do it that's it he said we're going to be bit more time the job is going to be take more than two days it's going to be take like a five days
02:18:17 five days and she talks to us ask us and you're happy guys to be work done more than two days five days we said hey that's fine just we need to be safe
02:18:25 be safe that's it and the job done and the next days change the changes start putting them
02:18:30 them in the same place we've been we want it okay
02:18:37 and did that mean that all your concerns were addressed after they moved the boiler
02:18:41 boiler yeah okay and you didn't have any further fire safety concerns after this well at least we moved the boiler from there
02:18:50 there just for our safety and the kids safety but the rest we cannot control it for our house we try to make everything safe for ourselves but offside we cannot talk to them to bonus
02:19:01 them to bonus we cannot change anything when you say off-site what area you described i mean we're talking on the left area stairs and
02:19:11 did you have any concerns about the safety of uh those communal areas the left areas and the stairs no no no okay
02:19:25 mr thank you very much your time those are my questions um at this point i will need to just check if there are any other questions from any other of the other core participants all right thank you mr
02:19:37 core participants all right thank you mr collude you may know this already but when council gets to the end of what she thinks questions we have a little break to ensure that nothing's been omitted sure and also to give other people a
02:19:49 sure and also to give other people a chance to suggest further questions so i'm going to we'll break now until half past 12
02:19:57 past 12 and um at half past 12 you'll come back and we'll see if there are any more questions we want to ask you is that right
02:20:02 right no probably you go with the usher and we'll see you a bit later on thank you and i don't think you'll have a chance to talk to anyone about your evidence but if the chance does come please don't take it all right yeah thank you very much
02:20:26 right well i'll say how fast 12 if again if it turns out that more times required you just let us know
02:31:20 yes would you ask mr collude to come back in please
02:31:36 all right mr collude we'll see if there are more questions for you no problem yes we come around i have two further questions
02:31:43 questions um firstly if i can take you back to your statement again mr khalid at iws401754
02:31:50 iws401754 this is page three and at paragraph 17 and if we go over to the next page actually where we want to
02:32:02 the next page actually where we want to look at
02:32:02 look at the top of the page yeah you've spoken about the meetings that you had with residents and you've explained that you attended some of them and the last line you say the most
02:32:13 and the last line you say the most active resident in this group was ed defan
02:32:15 defan here's the point of contact between the group and the tmo um my question was was he representative of the group was here representative of the group uh
02:32:27 was here representative of the group uh the ed he's the one he was organized most of
02:32:31 most of the the the meetings and he talked to the residents what time we call us sometime and he was between us and the term or yeah he's the one who was the representative
02:32:42 was the representative and was he representing your concerns yes
02:32:46 yes okay and then my final question is during the sign up with the tmos this is when you first moved in to grenfell tower do you recall receiving any documents informing you
02:32:58 receiving any documents informing you that you could become a member of the tmo
02:33:00 tmo no okay those are my questions thank you very much mr columbus thank you well mr glued thank you very much indeed for coming to give us your evidence it's been very good to hear
02:33:11 evidence it's been very good to hear from you thank you sir and uh i think that's all we have for you sir thank you very much thank you thank you sir bye thanks
02:33:22 thanks [Applause]
02:33:27 well we've got a little more time left this morning so we're going to read some more statements into the record but before we do that we'll have a short interlude
02:33:39 do that we'll have a short interlude while we change over council so that mr rawat can take over on the reading the panel will not retire we'll just wait until that's been done if anyone else
02:33:51 until that's been done if anyone else here
02:33:52 here does not wish to stay for the reading of four statements you're free to go but of course you're very welcome to
02:34:00 stay
02:34:57 well when you're ready thank you mr chairman thank you members of the panel um i want to now continue reading from statements of residents who had particular vulnerabilities we're moving on now to evidence from um
02:35:10 we're moving on now to evidence from um witnesses who lived in the higher flats in grenfell tower
02:35:14 tower some of those residents reported their mobility concerns of the tmo none say that they were advised about the possibility of a having prepared a personal emergency evacuation plan
02:35:26 evacuation plan the first statement that we will go to is that of allison moses and if we could have please on the screen iws401281
02:35:41 on the screen iws401281 miss moses lived alone in flat 11 on the fourth floor of grenfell tower and this is the first page of her phase two statement which consists of 13 pages could we go to page 13 please
02:35:55 13 please mr chairman we see that there is a statement of truth the statement is signed and dated 14th february 2020 and i ask that now be formally admitted into the record in terms of reading i would like to take
02:36:06 in terms of reading i would like to take the
02:36:07 the panel back to page 3 and paragraph 13.
02:36:16 as moses says there i had informed rbkc stroke tmo of my health conditions because they impacted my housing needs mobility difficulties meant i would need
02:36:27 mobility difficulties meant i would need a property that was step three and i had a wet room my tendency agreement for flat eleven of grenfell tower notes that i have additional needs and she then gives the reference for that document if we move through
02:36:39 for that document if we move through the statement please to paragraph 42
02:36:50 the statement please to paragraph 42 thank you under the heading um fire safety advice ms moses says as follows
02:36:57 follows i do not remember being provided with a fire safety device after moving into the property
02:37:02 property although i was not provided with fire safety advice i knew what i would do in the event of a fire i knew i would get out
02:37:09 get out this was not based on anything i had been told to do but my own response to something
02:37:13 something like that i suffer from health problems which affect my mobility this means i cannot use stairs and i cannot easily step in and out of the bath
02:37:24 bath our bkc and the tmo
02:37:27 were aware of these needs my needs were also recognized by adult social care which is part of rbkc as they installed a wet drum in my flat i finished reading from
02:37:38 in my flat i finished reading from miss moses's statement at that point if i could take the panel please to the statement of mariam use of adam that is at iws401296
02:37:56 this phase two statement consists of seven pages and if we go again to the last page
02:38:02 last page in the statement we see again that there is a statement of truth the statement is signed dated 14th of february 2020 and again mr chairman i ask that and
02:38:14 and again mr chairman i ask that and be put into the record at this point for background miss adam lived in flat 14 on the fourth floor of grenfell tower with her husband abdul wahab abdul hamid her brother
02:38:25 abdul wahab abdul hamid her brother yasin yusuf adam and there was also a friend amna yusuf muhammad
02:38:31 muhammad who stayed with the family on occasion if we go please to page 3 in the statement
02:38:43 in the statement and if we look at paragraph 11.
02:38:50 this is where in the statement ms adams begins to discuss vulnerabilities as well as her language needs she says at paragraph 11 i do not remember seeing a fire safety sign on my floor or on
02:39:02 a fire safety sign on my floor or on other floors when i first moved in the housing officer told me where i should go in the event of a fire which was down the stairs this is contradictory to the state policy that i have now been made aware
02:39:13 policy that i have now been made aware of
02:39:14 of i remember there was a green stroke white sign on the wall on my floor that showed the escape routes i do not remember seeing any emergency lighting on my floor or any smoke control or ventilation system
02:39:26 control or ventilation system if we go on to paragraph 15 on the same page
02:39:32 ms adam continues at paragraph 15. i was not aware of the stable policy before 14 june 2017 if the tmo did provide any information i was not aware of this anything sent by
02:39:45 i was not aware of this anything sent by the tmo was always in english which was not
02:39:48 not my first language
02:39:51 i was not aware of any special provisions made for those with language or other special needs i also have mobility issues which make it difficult for me to walk and i don't remember rbkc or tmo providing any specific information
02:40:03 providing any specific information about escapes routes in an emergency for those with mobility issues i was told by the tmo when i moved in that in the event of the fire i would have to use the lifts they
02:40:15 i would have to use the lifts they advised me that if i could not use the lifts
02:40:17 lifts then i would have to use the stairs they made no efforts to resolve this issue for me
02:40:22 for me given that they knew about my mobility issues
02:40:25 issues that's where i will conclude reading from that statement but i would add that miss adam's brother yassin yusuf adam has also provided a phase two statement
02:40:34 statement that is under the reference iws401301 her husband abdul wahid abdul wahab abdul hamid provided a phase two statement under reference
02:40:46 statement under reference iws401
02:40:49 iws401 these statements go to similar issues and i ask at this point that they be admitted into the record the next statement mr chairman i'd like to turn to is that of maher kuder
02:41:00 to turn to is that of maher kuder and you'll remember mr chairman that mr kudair gave all evidence to you during phase one
02:41:05 phase one of the inquiry's hearings if we could have please
02:41:10 iws401616 on the screen
02:41:15 this is the first page of mr kudair's phase 2 statement it consists of 16 pages and again if we go to page 16 we see there a statement of truth which
02:41:27 we see there a statement of truth which is signed
02:41:27 is signed and is dated the 24th of february 2020. again for the panel by way of background and you you'll recall this was mr kader's evidence in phase
02:41:38 this was mr kader's evidence in phase one mr chairman but he lived in flat 64 on the ninth floor of grenfell tower and he was living there at the time of the fire with his wife and three daughters mr kudair has polio or had polio in both of his legs since
02:41:49 or had polio in both of his legs since her
02:41:50 her and this was since early childhood and after an operation on his knees in 2009 he had to use crutches in his phase two witness statement he says that his a bit
02:42:02 witness statement he says that his a bit mobility issues meant that it was impracticable for him to use the stairs he was therefore heavily reliant on the lifts
02:42:09 lifts and he also notes that there was no exit route with disabled access if we go please to patron
02:42:21 and pick it up at paragraph 47 what mr corder says there was there was no fire exit route with disabled access at grenfell tower the only route i could take was
02:42:33 tower the only route i could take was the only flight of stairs i did not understand why there was no escape routes suitable for disabled people
02:42:39 people as i could not run or walk through the stairs as easily as other people because of my mobility issues if i move through the statement now to paragraphs 55
02:42:51 paragraphs 55 please we look at 55 to 58.
02:43:00 under the heading fire safety advice mr cadet
02:43:03 cadet said as follows when i moved to grenfell tower nobody gave me any fire safety advice or explained to me what to do in case of fire the council or the tmo did not give me any fire safety information
02:43:15 any fire safety information they simply showed me the flat showed me where the kitchen was where the bedroom was the council did not prepare any personal emergency evacuation plan for me as a disabled person
02:43:25 person on crutches to explain to me what i should do in case of emergency in case of fire i did not know what to do
02:43:33 do we could move again forward now to page 8 and paragraph 61 please
02:43:45 mr kudar makes the point in this paragraph that the tmo and rbkt would have been aware of his disability as he had gone to the town hall to make a complaint about access to the tower
02:43:57 a complaint about access to the tower whilst the main entrance was closed mr kader says that he informed them that they
02:44:01 they had to open the main entrance because the bridge was too dangerous for him given his disability if we go on to the next page and paragraph 62 mr kudair continues in approximately
02:44:13 mr kudair continues in approximately 2016 i complained about the bridge to victoria
02:44:16 victoria barwick that should be borig who was the mp for kensington and chelsea at the time
02:44:21 time she came to meet me and other residents of grenfell tower and people working from the tmo she told people working for the tmo to listen to me a man working from the tm asked me what i wanted and i told him i
02:44:33 asked me what i wanted and i told him i could not use the bridge and the stairs at the end of the bridge because i'm on crutches and i have severe mobility issues someone from tmo even promised the mp that the main entrance would be open
02:44:44 that the main entrance would be open after two weeks but it was reopened after three months only statement continues i complained almost
02:44:52 almost 20 times about the lifts not working but nothing was done i'm very disappointed at how i was treated
02:44:59 treated that's where i end reading from that statement mr chairman but if i could go to
02:45:04 to move on to the evidence of rosita bonifacio please and that is at iws401887
02:45:20 mr chairman um you will remember the phase one evidence relating to mr el pidio bonifacio who was the last person to be rescued from grenfell tower on the 14th of june 2017. he and his wife rosita had lived
02:45:34 2017. he and his wife rosita had lived in flat 83 on the 11th floor of the tower for 36 years they have two sons who were born and grew up in grenfell tower before moving out as adults as we see here rosita bonifacio had
02:45:46 as we see here rosita bonifacio had provided
02:45:47 provided a phase 2 statement which consists of 11 pages
02:45:50 pages and if we go to page 11 please again it has a statement of truth it is signed
02:45:59 signed and it is dated 13th of march 2020. if i could ask that we move back to page seven
02:46:06 seven page three please
02:46:13 and please if we could expand around paragraph 17.
02:46:21 this is under the heading fire safety signage and information mrs bonifacio's statement continues i do not recall being given any information about fire safety by the tmo
02:46:32 information about fire safety by the tmo rbkc or london fire brigade i do not recall seeing any fire safety signage in grenfell tower outlining what to do in the event of a fire there was not a sign by or in the
02:46:43 fire there was not a sign by or in the lift stating that the lift should not be used
02:46:45 used in the event of a fire
02:46:49 if we go on down to paragraph 25 please
02:46:58 and again if we see the heading special needs or vulnerabilities relevant to fire safety in this part of the statement
02:47:05 statement mrs bonifacio is explaining why she thought that the tmo and rbkc were aware of her husband's disability and the statement reads from paragraph 25 shavanthi my advisor at kensington citizens advice
02:47:17 my advisor at kensington citizens advice bureau
02:47:18 bureau registered my husband's disability at the town hall so rb casey and the tmo must have known about my husband's disabilities namely he is partially sighted and has mobility issues
02:47:29 mobility issues in addition as i outlined previously when the tmo initially refused to carry out repairs in our flat i told them that my husband was disabled and that we were both unable to carry out
02:47:40 out the repairs ourselves
02:47:43 in paragraph 26 the statement continues the tmo never spoke to me about moving to a lower floor in the tower despite the fact that my husband and i are both elderly the tmo also did not offer to make
02:47:55 the tmo also did not offer to make adaptations to our flat to make it suitable for my husband and more accommodating for his disabilities they never carried out any kind of assessment of our needs it made me feel like they did not really
02:48:08 it made me feel like they did not really care and that it was better not to go to them to complain about anything and the next paragraph reads as follows i did not contact the tmo about these issues or inform
02:48:19 the tmo about these issues or inform them that my husband required a special fire evacuation plan because of his disabilities because i did not think if we go over to the page
02:48:30 the page that
02:48:34 they would care it was always a struggle to get them to respond to my complaints so i felt that there was no point going to them for help
02:48:45 to them for help mr chairman i now want to go to another statement and that is the statement of shaquillah flora neder it's we could have on the screen please
02:48:57 it's we could have on the screen please two seven iws401272
02:49:00 again mr chairman you will remember mrs nedder she gave evidence during phase one and on the same day as her son shekab neder her phase two statement consists of 13 pages and if we could go
02:49:11 consists of 13 pages and if we could go to that last page please
02:49:15 we see the statement of truth statement is signed
02:49:18 is signed it's dated the 2nd of march 2020 and again i ask that it be admitted into the record again for background mrs nedder lived in flat 205 on the 23rd floor with her
02:49:30 flat 205 on the 23rd floor with her husband
02:49:30 husband saba and her son the family had moved into grenfell tower on the 17th of may 1999 and again um as everyone will know mr neder died uh
02:49:41 as everyone will know mr neder died uh during the fire in her phase two state evidence uh mrs neder has described her reliance on the lifts
02:49:48 lifts in the tower and she explains that when the lifts were out of service she would go back into her flat and not go out for the day mrs neder however had no choice but to take stairs on occasions when she had
02:49:59 take stairs on occasions when she had medical appointments and if we go please to page eight in statement
02:50:07 and we look at paragraph 50.
02:50:12 this is where um miss neda describes her um medical conditions and this the paragraph reads i suffer from myasthenia gravis
02:50:23 myasthenia gravis i was diagnosed with this in december 2008 which causes weakness in my muscles and i am easily fatigued my tmo housing officer who i think was named janice was aware of this
02:50:34 named janice was aware of this she was a really good housing officer and i openly spoke with her about my condition
02:50:38 condition during this time i was using a walking stick and she told me that she was sorry to hear about my diagnosis the reception staff had also noticed that i had started to walk with a walking stick claire williams was also aware of my
02:50:50 claire williams was also aware of my medical condition the rbkc was also aware as my social worker made arrangements for a carer for me
02:50:57 me and she came to my flat twice a week to help me with domestic chores i'm going to stop uh reading there but if i
02:51:06 if i ask that we go over to the next page in paragraph 51
02:51:13 what mrs neder says in that paragraph is neither rb casey north tmo never discussed fire safety with me after they became aware of my disability they also did not discuss an escape
02:51:24 they also did not discuss an escape route in the event of a fire although my health had deteriorated i never requested to be moved to a lower floor
02:51:31 floor i loved my flat and was very happy there and i did not want to move that's all i read from mrs nedder's statement but i add now that her son shakub has also provided a phase 2
02:51:42 shakub has also provided a phase 2 statement where he gives further information on the same issues as his mother the reference for that is iws401302
02:51:51 iws401302 and i ask that it be admitted into the record
02:51:56 mr chairman if i could now turn to phase two statements that have been provided by bereaved witnesses who have given evidence in those statements about their loved ones who had vulnerabilities
02:52:08 had vulnerabilities and i would like to start with two statements from members of the shukeer family
02:52:12 family salsan and hissam shakir who both speak about their mother mrs chaker who died in the fire
02:52:21 as you will recall from phase one mr chairman sao sanchez lived in flat 191 on the 22nd floor with her mother syria mr chaker's sister nadya lived on the same floor with her husband basum and
02:52:32 same floor with her husband basum and their three children they were a the evidence was that they were a close-knit family who shared meals and
02:52:39 meals and valuable time with each other and we know from sao san joker's evidence that her mother loved living with her children and grandchildren and
02:52:50 with her children and grandchildren and the view over london from her flat if we go please to iws four zeros one seven nine nine
02:53:03 uh this is sal sanchez phase two statement consisting of 22 pages please go to page 22.
02:53:14 again we see a statement of truth signed and dated 2nd of march 2020 and i ask that this statement be admitted into the record
02:53:22 record can we go back please to page nine
02:53:29 and start at paragraph nine please um
02:53:40 here mrs chaker speaks of her mother's mobility issues and if i read from the middle section of the paragraph it reads as follows my mum with whom i lived
02:53:50 lived with had difficulty walking due to her back
02:53:53 back she could walk a bit but could not stand for long periods in order to keep her balance she had to use a walking stick due to her having to use a walking stick it would have taken her a long time to get down the stairs
02:54:04 get down the stairs and she would need help this was a pre-existing condition before she moved in if both of the lifts were not working she would not be able to leave the flat as it was a long way to walk down the
02:54:16 as it was a long way to walk down the stairs
02:54:17 stairs i'm not aware if rbkc had her recorded as disabled if we go now please to page 12.
02:54:32 i just this is the continuation of paragraph 12 at the top of the page but i just want to read that bit into the record
02:54:39 record my mom suffered from a disability as set out above i'm not sure if rbkc knew about this but i know the benefits people did as she was assessed for fitness to work and was seen by a doctor i'm not
02:54:50 work and was seen by a doctor i'm not sure of the result of this or whether that information was passed to rbkc could we have please now on the screen
02:55:00 iws401851
02:55:07 this is the phase 2 statement of hisham care which consists of 31 pages if we go please to page 31
02:55:20 it is again accompanied by a statement of truth
02:55:23 of truth signed and is dated the 26th of february 2020.
02:55:27 2020. so again i ask that that be formally admitted into the record can we take it back please to page two
02:55:38 paragraph eight mr care begins to describe and discuss his mother's health conditions but if we pick it up at paragraph
02:55:47 paragraph 10 what he says there is that in my view in the context of her housing needs
02:55:54 needs she was also vulnerable by the fact that she could not read or write in english and although she could understand and speak limited conversational english she would find it difficult to
02:56:05 she would find it difficult to understand any unusual or technical terms
02:56:07 terms words or expressions if we could move forward in the statement to page 8 and paragraph 42.
02:56:21 there mr chucker states that paragraph 42 the apparent failure to prepare a personal emergency evacuation plan or even properly record the above
02:56:32 or even properly record the above information about the personal risk to my mother in the event of a fire or to communicate it to others for example the lfb meant that there were no measures in place to support her in the event of any
02:56:43 place to support her in the event of any evacuation could i ask that we moved two pages down to paragraph 56 please
02:56:55 to paragraph 56 please and this is about the provision of fire safety information and paragraph 56 mr chaker records this i think that my family were aware of the fire safety advice
02:57:07 fire safety advice i remember my mother saying that she had had someone from the tmo or rbkc visit her and that they told her to stay put if there was a fire i was not there at the time so i did not
02:57:18 i was not there at the time so i did not know they bought a translator with them but even though she remembered the word stay put my impression was that she did not understand what that meant uh that is all um i propose to read from mr chuck a
02:57:30 i propose to read from mr chuck a statement but um the final point to make is that um nabil chuker who is also a son of syracuse
02:57:40 syracuse has also made a phase two statement that is under
02:57:43 is under the reference iws402365 and i ask at this point that that be admitted into the record um mr chairman i note the time and i would propose that we stop at this point is that a convenient
02:57:55 stop at this point is that a convenient point thank you right now we've got another witness coming after the germans is that right yes we have and um as long as we know she'll be ready to start at two o'clock i hope soon
02:58:06 start at two o'clock i hope soon very good all right well thank you we'll break now then resume two o'clock thank you very much
02:58:34 you